Document

STELLA TOBIS January 28, 2015

Q: This is a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Mrs. Stanistawa Synowiec Tobis, on January 28, 2015, in Chicago, Illinois. Thank you very, very much, Mrs. Tobis, for agreeing to speak with us today, and to share your experiences of what happened to you and your family during World War IL.

I'm going to start our interview by talking an awful lot about what pre-war life was like, so that we get a better understanding of how things really changed for you when the war actually occurred. So my very first question is; could you tell me the date of your birth?

A: 10-17-1928.

Q: So that would be October 17", 1928?

A: Right.

Q: Okay. And where was the place you were born?

A: Osada Brantowce, gmina Lyskow, wojew6ddztwa Wolkowysk, bial -- Bialystok -- no, wojewedztwa Bialystok. Oh, I am mixed up.

Q: So you were telling me the place, then the larger district, and then the larger region.

A: Right.

Q: Is that right?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 4

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Right.

Q: So what's the name of the place itself? Th-Th-The very place you were born.

A: Osada Brantowce.

Q: Brantowce.

A: Right.

Q: And what does osada mean?

A: Osada means a settlement my father received for being a soldier in the first

World War. As a young boy he joined, and he --

Q: We'll talk about that then, so --

A: Right.

Q: This was a settlement, which was as a result -- that your family moved to as a

result of his service.

A: Right.

Q: Okay, and it was called Brantowce.

A: Right.

Q: Okay. And what was your name at birth?

A: Stanislawa Synowiec.

Q: Did you have a baptized name?

A: Yes.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 5

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: What was that?

A: Stanislawa Helena.

Q: Helena, okay. Tell me a little bit about your father, since we started talking

about him. What was his name?

A: Wawjeenitz(ph).

Q: Wawjeenitz(ph).

A: Synowiec.

Q: And was he from that part of Poland, or did he come from someplace else?

A: No, he came from Opoczno.

Q: And where is Opoczno?

A: Opoczno is in the western part of Poland.

Q: Okay. Did he come from a small family, or a large family?

A: A small. Three -- three boys, and the parents.

Q: And a-- which one was he? The youngest, the oldest?

A: He was middle.

Q: Of course he'd be the middle, because I said the youngest and the old. What

were the names of his brothers?

A: only --I don't even -- I know --

A2: Was [inaudible] or no?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis (r)

January 28, 2015

A: [know only children's names.

Q: Okay. Did you ever meet your uncles, your father's brothers?

A: Brothers, no. Only son who --

Q: Of the brother.

A: -- of the brother, of the -- I think younger brother, who lived in wa -- eastern part

of Poland also, and he was deported to -- not to Siberia, because it was in the last

deportation in April of -- no, June of 1941 -- no, 1940, 1940, the same year. And --

and he ended up in Polish army.

Q: So that was your uncle, or the son of your uncle?

A: Son of a-- of uncle.

Q: Okay, uncle was not deported.

A: No, a-- uncle died before the war.

Q: Okay. Did you know your father's parents?

A: No.

Q: Okay.

A: My father didn't have -- my father's father died before the first World War. And

then his mother was taken care of by the older -- oldest brother, so there was no

good relationship with the good brother, because he didn't, I think, do a good

dividing of the property. So-- so my -- my father just left to the army, and then The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 7

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

never -- never went back to him. But he had better relationship with his young --

middle brother -- no, not middle, youngest brother, who lived in --I for -- I'm

forgetting -- closer to Lithuania. Lida(ph).

Q: Lida(ph).

A: He -- he -- he lives in le -- Lida(ph). And his son was de -- deported to Russia, but

then he joined the arm -- Polish army.

Q: I see. So there were deportations from Lida as well?

A: Right.

Q: Okay. But they were both -- so both brothers ended up in the same general part of

Poland, the northeastern part of Poland.

A: Right, right.

Q: Okay.

A: But he lived in a city, and he was not given such a reward for being in -- in

Marshall Pilsudski army. So -- so he was co -- kind of better -- in a better pos --

position.

Q: That is, your father was?

A: Than -- no, no, my father was better.

Q: Yo -- your father was in a better position.

A: Yes, mm-hm.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 8

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: What did your father tell you about his service in Marshall Pilsudski's army?

A: He was injured during the war, and he wanted to become a -- a how do you call?

A---to be--to be permanently in the army, and he was not accepted because th-the

injury was -- I don't remember, Father never told me, but he told me only that he

was wounded, and -- and he was not accepted for -- for the --

Q: He wanted to be a career military.

A: Career, right. And -- and he was not. So he always exercised the same, like in the

army.

Q: Oh, did he really?

A: Yes. And I think my sister took after him.

Q: Really?

A: Because she -- she is so all the time exercising, and I am worse.

Q: It's a good thing to do.

A: Right. I only swim, that's all.

Q: Well, that's also very good. So, you didn't have much relations with your

father's side of the family.

A: Right.

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis deg

January 28, 2015

A: Only with my mother's. With my mother's was a tremendous -- it was like wi --

like having grandmother, ma -- my mom's aunt.

Q: Okay, so that meant -- tell me a little bit about -- what was your mother's first

name?

A: Zofia(ph).

Q: Zofia(ph). And her maiden name?

A: Bokwajits(ph).

Q: Bokwajits(ph). And where was she from in Poland?

A: She was always living -- she was born there, and she was living in -- in bialys --

Bialostocka wojewedztwa.

Q: So she always lived in the Bialystok region?

A: Mm-hm.

Q: Okay, wi -- did she live in the town, in the city of Bialystok itself?

A: In the city, Wolkowysk.

Q: Yeah? Ah, Wolkowysk. What was her family like? What did -- what did her

parents do? Were they city people, or farm people?

A: City -- city people, and -- and my mother, when she was three, her -- her mother

died of pneumonia. At that time I guess there was no medicine for it. And when she

was five years old, it was still under Russia, under tsar, and she -- her father went to The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 10

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

meet with the uprising people, that were preparing the uprising, and -- and was

killed, and never returned.

Q: Her fa --

A: Her father.

Q: So she was an orphan?

A: She was an orphan from five years old.

Q: Who brought her up?

A: A aunt.

Q: Her aunt?

A: Yes.

Q: So -- and her -- what had happened -- ah, her mother had died. You're saying her

mother had already died.

A: Her mother died, right, and --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- and her father die -- was killed.

Q: And --

A: And that was before the first World -- World War.

Q: Well, did she have -- did your mother have brothers and sisters?

A: She had two brothers.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis "

January 28, 2015

Q: Younger, older?

A: Older.

Q: Okay.

A: Who was taken to the Russian army.

Q: Okay.

A: And never let go, during the first World War. And after first World War, he was

kept there.

Q: Oh, really?

A: My mom -- my mom tried to get hi -- to -- to help him to come, and she couldn't

get enough money to -- fast enough, and they closed the border. So he stayed in

Moscow, and had family. And I'm gonna jump a little, to fra -- to the -- because,

when I talk about him, he was the one that helped us to leave Siberia, because we

didn't have Father when they were deporting us, and we had no money. My brother,

only 15 years old, was supporting us, buying the bread, and this --

Q: We'll talk about that -- yeah, we"! talk about that later.

A: Right, right.

Q: So, you ha -- your uncle, whom you had never seen, who had been drafted in the

tsar's army, and then wasn't able to leave in time because there was no money to

pay for this -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- journey, or whatever costs were involved --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- and the border closed, ended up living in Moscow.

A: Right.

Q: And he was your mother's older brother.

A: Right, older.

Q: What wa -- what was his name?

A: Jusef(ph) Bokwajits(ph).

Q: Jusef(ph) Bokwajjits(ph), okay. And then your mother had another brother?

A: And she had a younger brother.

Q: What was his name?

A: And -- oh my gosh, "m--I have a--I---

Q: You want to take a look in your book?

A: -I'd have to.

Q: Okay. Let's cut while she looks in her book.

A: Because I have -- I have a -- [break] Janic(ph) Bokwajits(ph).

Q: Was your mother's younger brother.

A: Younger brother, yes.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 13

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Okay. Can you tell us again who -- the name of your mother's younger brother?

A: Janic(ph) Bokwajits(ph).

Q: Okay. Okay. And what happened to him? Did he stay in Poland?

A: He stayed, and he had to hide all the possible pictures, or some -- something to

show that -- that he was my mother's brother. So he has to hide that, and they were

trying to deport him too, but never found --

Q: Evidence.

A: Evidence.

Q: Okay.

A: So -- so he was living til "90, I think one.

Q: 1991.

A: Or 1990, something like that.

Q: Okay.

A: And I was able to visit him.

Q: Oh wow. Okay, we'll come to these times too.

A: Right. Iam not continuing that.

Q: Yeah. So -- but I wanted to establish your family, who was in your family. And

so you -- in your mother's and your father's families. So she -- your father has -- I'm

going to kind of summarize. Your father has an older brother with whom he doesn't The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 14

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

have great relations, because whatever property that had been left to the children,

the boys, he felt wasn't fairly divided.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: Your -- he did have relations with his younger brother, who also lived in-- now

moved to northeastern Poland, to Lida(ph), but died before the second World War,

and the younger brother's son was deported to the Soviet Union. Your mother's

side, her father -- her mother died when she was a young girl, a little girl, three years

old, you said?

A: Right.

Q: And her father was killed during the uprising against the tsarist regime at the end

of first World War, to free Poland. As an effort to free Poland. And so she grew up

with your --

A: Aunt.

Q: Aunt. Was it at the end of the first World War that she grew up with your aunt,

or was it earlier? Was it another uprising that took place before the first World

War?

A: No, there was no -- no other wa -- and then -- then the war started, and -- and --

and my mother -- and got married.

Q: Ah, okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 15

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: And ah -- so -- so she -- she -- she was --

Q: When was -- okay, te --

A: -- growing up.

Q: -- tell me, do you remember the date of your mother's birth?

A: Not the date, only --

Q: The year?

A: -- the year.

Q: What was the year?

A: The year, ni-- 19 -- you have to tell me it --

Q: Her sister was -- yes, what is the year?

A2: 1898, isn't it?

A: So that's right, 1898.

Q: 1898. All right. So this is -- this is one of the reasons I would bring this up. Her

mother dies when she's three years old, from pneumonia.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: And that would make it 1901. And her father dies in an uprising when she's five

years old. That's 1903. That's well before World War I.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: So there was an uprising against the tsarist regime before World War I?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: It wasn't. It didn't come to that. I-- I guess they -- they got --

Q: They failed.

A: They failed, yeah. They didn't start.

Q: Okay.

A: It wasn't during the uprising, it was just during the meeting, that they -- they

were meeting there, in a forest.

Q: And he was killed at that time.

A: And he was killed at that time.

Q: Did ye -- did she ever find out whether -- who killed him?

A: Not -- Russians. Tsarist Russians.

Q: I see. So then she spent her childhood and her girlhood with your aunt?

A: Right.

Q: Her mother's sister.

A: Right.

Q: And at -- what was your mother's -- what was this aunt's name?

A: Zofia(ph) Kornapelko(ph).

Q: Kornapelko(ph).

A: Hey, I remembered.

Q: Did you know her as well?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 17

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Oh yes, we loved her.

Q: Was she like a grandmother then?

A: Oh yes.

Q: Okay.

A: We called her grandmother, and she -- she loved my sister more, because she was

smaller, and she wrapped us like babies.

Q: Oh really?

A: In--in a big -- you know. She was very good grandma.

Q: Okay. So let's turn now to your own, you know, smaller family, that is your --

your mother, your father, got married after World War I. Is this correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: And I have to tell you, because that's a nice story. My grandma -- or mom's aunt,

she loved my mo -- our mother so much that she wanted my -- my [crying] -- can't

talk about my mom. She wanted our mom -- mom to get married. So -- so she says, I

want you to get married. I -- I am not gonna die until you get married. So my mother

died. No, what I am talking. Oh, I'm getting mixed up. I better don't do that any

more, it's nasty.

Q: It's okay. It's okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 18

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: So my -- my grandma was telling my mother to get married, and my mother got

married. So then -- then she's changed her dying date. She says, I will not die until

you have a baby. And sure thing, my -- my mother had my brother.

Q: Okay.

A: And he was the oldest in our family. She didn't see me, and she -- and she saw

my son -- my -- don't -- don't listen to me what I'm saying.

Q: No, no, it's okay.

A: Listen to what I am thinking.

Q: Okay, we" ll listen to what you're thinking.

A: Okay, so -- so my brother was born, and -- and she says, now I can die.

Q: Okay. But she didn't.

A: Yes, she did.

Q: But you -- but you didn't -- but you hadn't been born yet.

A: Oh no, I-- she didn't wait for me. I wasn't important.

Q: But you said that she loved you and your younger sister.

A: Oh yes, til then. Oh, wait a minute, my -- what did I --

Q: You s--

A: Oh no, I am talking about real grandmother.

Q: Your real grandmother died when your mother was three years old.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 19

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: No, no, wait a minute. You have to straighten me out.

A2: Should I help?

Q: Okay, we're -- we're talking now with Stanistawa, Stella, but her sister is sitting

by the side, and is going to help out with this confusion and mystery about the early

years. Tell us, Pani Lrena, what -- what -- what Stella is talking to.

A2: Oh I - the [indecipherable] when we used to visit her, that somebody else ha, I

don't know.

A: That was my mom [indecipherable]

A2: Not the real mo-mother, you know.

A: And I am talking about --

A2: Not the real grandma.

Q: No, she is talking ab -- what you are saying is that someone else, who was

visiting them, was saying these things. I'm going to try and repeat the story as I

understand it. Your -- the lady who brought up your mother was your aunt, your

grandmother's sister, correct?

A: Yes?

Q: Yes. Who brou -- because your grandmother died when you were yo -- when your

mother was young, and it was her sister who then brought up your mother.

A: That's probably was the daughter of the -- of that grandmother, or something.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 20

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Okay, let --

A: Oh my gosh.

Q: No, let's cut the camera.

A: I completely got -- I got completely mixed up.

Q: Okay, but -- [break]

A: --remember what I said.

Q: No, no, no, it's okay. Okay, so we haven't been able to really establish your --

who was saying -- who -- who was saying to your mother, I won't die until you do

this, and I won't die until you do that. What you do know, or what you have told me

is that your grandmother, who was really your grand-aunt, who raised your mother,

was someone who loved you and your sister and your whole family very much.

A: Yeah, and she lived a long time, because we were in Siberia.

Q: And she still was alive.

A: And still was alive, and she was se-sending to us some care packages.

Q: Okay. So --

A: So --so she -- so that has to be completely blank -- blank in my head. That's what

you get with 86 ye-years old [indecipherable]

Q: Sometimes we get it even earlier. All right. So let's now turn to your brothers

and sisters.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 21

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Okay.

Q: Tell me --

A: That I remember.

Q: Good. And we start with the oldest. When was the -- who was the oldest of your

brothers and sisters, and when was that person born?

A: My brother was born in April, 1924.

Q: And what is his name?

A: Stanislaw.

Q: Stanistaw Synowiec.

A: Right.

Q: And then who came after him?

A: I was the one.

Q: So that then it was Stanislawa?

A: Stanislawa.

Q: And just remind me again, you were born in 1920 si--

A: Eight.

Q: 1928. And then who came after that?

A: And then my sister.

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 22

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Who is still smarter than me.

Q: And her name?

A: Irene.

Q: And she was born?

A: February 16. Very soon her birthday.

Q: Yeah.

A: 1930 -- 1930.

Q: Okay. And who came after that?

A: Oh, Jereczek.

Q: Okay.

A: Really, Jerzy.

Q: Jerzy.

A: Jerzy Synowiec(ph), and he was born on June -- June, June, June, I think maybe

sixth, something like that. In the beginning of June.

Q: And which year?

A: Ni--- the war -- 19 --

Q: Thirty-nine?

A: Thirty-nine.

Q: And was there any other child?

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The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 23

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: No.

Q: So there were you -- four of you.

A: Four of us.

Q: Okay. So that's quite a big difference between 1930 and 1939.

A: My father h-had work in Wolkowysk. So that's -- that was 35 kilometers from

our -- our Brantowce osada. So he used to come only once a week, and apparently

didn't work.

Q: I see. So, did you li -- when -- describe to be bren -- Brensowice(ph)?

A: Brantowce.

Q: Bran-Brantowce. How many -- how many families lived there?

A: One, two -- six.

Q: So it was a very small place.

A: It's very small. I think what was happening -- I didn't know the story, not at that

time yet, and -- and then I never found out. That was probably big property of

someone that maybe was killed, or -- and the family was killed, or -- or ran away,

because many Russian people were running away from tsars during that uprising

that was in Russia at the same time.

Q: You mean the Bolshevik revolution?

A: Bolshevik re -- yes.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 24

Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Right.

A: So -- so that's -- that's why that land was for the government to give to those that

were fighting for freedom, and -- and that's how my father got as a reward for being

in the army, and --

Q: How much land did he get?

A: How much it -- I know it was a big -- big property, but not huge.

Q: Was it 10 hectares, was it 20?

A: I think it was more than 20.

Q: Do you think it was more than 30? You don't know.

A: I do--I really don't know, but I know it was one of the very, very good -- quite a

piece of land. There was forest, there was a river. River was the border. And that

my father could ju -- could do a lot with this. We had -- we had ponds, fish ponds,

and my father was raising carps, which were very popular for Christmas eve dinner.

So--so he -- he was making good money. Then he had apple orchards, and a pear

orchard, and -- and raspberries, and all kinds of --

Q: Fruit?

A: -- fruit. And then other -- other things necessary for having nice -- a living, to

make a good living there.

Q: Was he a f-- was he farming the land?

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Not in a--as a--as his -- but he -- later, yes. He was hiring people from the

village.

Q: To farm the land.

A: To farm the land. And -- and -- and we had always a-- a man, and a-- anda

woman to help out in the house for my mom. And he was working in Wolkowysk

in a jail. And -- and that -- that was giving him additional money to -- to start that

place, and buy the equipment and everything. So -- so he was -- a-and for that, he

was, if I can talk about my father now.

Q: Yes, but not about the war, just about what his life was like --

A: Okay.

Q: -- what he was doing before the war.

A: Okay, so that's the -- I think that fits into it.

Q: Okay.

A: So when -- when Russians came, he was arrested.

Q: Well, excuse me, let's leave that for later.

A: Oh, oh, oh, okay.

Q: Because that's already about -- about what happens during the war.

A: Okay. Okay.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Okay. But I -- tell me this, wha-what was his role in the jail? What was his job

there?

A: I think he was in --I have no idea, because I was too small. Father was still

talking about showing the pictures. I know on the pictures he had a lot of pictures

from the jail. And -- and he was always in the middle, so I don't know whether

that's the -- was that something important for him?

Q: Yeah. Was he the -- was he the director of the jail, or was he just in charge of

something?

A: He was maybe -- maybe -- I don't know, director, or -- or -- or somebody, you

know, in may -- maybe somebody more important, you know.

Q: Okay.

A: But I know he was getting good money and -- and -- and it's helped him to start

in the farming, and -- and whatever. And he was very smart man, because he knew

how to start -- start everything, and --

Q: It sounds like he was very enterprising.

A: Right, right, he was.

Q: Now, di-- because it was land that he was given, did he and your mother build

the house you lived in?

A: Yes.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Was it a new house?

A: Yes.

Q: What did it look like?

A: Well, it was bigger than somebody else had.

Q: In other words, it was a large house.

A: Well, the -- I would say medium --

Q: Okay.

A: -- because there will -- there were bigger houses than -- but not in this area.

Q: Okay, was it built from brick, or from stone, or from wood?

A: From wood.

Q: Okay.

A: And we -- we had the f-- forest, a lot of forest, so -- so I guess they -- they had

their own probably wood, that they took to Tartak, and in Tartak was where they

can take the -- and the -- the tree, and -- and make a --

Q: Log structure.

A: -- logs for -- for building, or for something, for the boards, or whatever --

whatever they needed. So --

Q: And how -- how many rooms did you have in the house? Do you remember?

Was it -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Three, four. F-Four and -- and they -- they were -- no, five. There was another

one. And -- an-and they were making another room, another --

Q: They were adding on to the house?

A: Adding -- adding onto -- more.

Q: Okay. When -- when you were growing up, were you going to school, to Polish

school?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you have to travel far to do it?

A: They usually -- the man that was working, he took u--he drove us there, but I

think it was two kilometers.

Q: Was it by horse and cart?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: No, that time, only one car we saw in the area, and that man owned ha --

thousand -- thousand of hectare of land.

Q: So this man was a -- was your --

A: So -- so -- so -- so our -- our 30 or 40 didn't -- didn't -- car --

Q: Yeah, no car.

A: No car.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: No car. Did you have a radio at home?

A: Yes.

Q: You did, okay. Did you have electricity?

A: No, not yet.

Q: Running water?

A: Ru--no, we had to -- and --

Q: You had a well?

A: And -- we had a river.

Q: Oh, okay.

A: It was so -- so close that it wasn't worth it to -- to dig the well.

Q: Oh really, so you would get water from the river?

A: Mm-hm. And I -- and that's where I learned to swim.

Q: When you were still a girl, when all political things started happening, did your

parents in -- talk about what was going on in Germany, or what was going on in

Russia?

A: I'm sure they did, because I--1 do remember some talk. Not that I maybe

understood to a hundred percent, but I knew that something bad happening. And

then at one time, they were collecting like donations for the government, to start

helping, and start -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Preparing?

A: -- preparing. So -- so all that was being prepared, and my parents knew about it.

And -- and even -- well, this -- this I am not supposed to say now. But the newspaper

was delivered, but at that time, there was no more newspaper, no more news.

Q: Oh really? You mean in ni -- like when the war started, there was no more news?

A: Yes.

Q: Can you --

A: Because that was -- that was -- what I want to say, it's the beginning of war.

Q: Okay.

A: Should I?

Q: In a minute. Just --

A: Oh, in a minute.

Q: We're almost there.

A: Okay.

Q: We're almost there.

A: Okay.

Q: Do you remember what the summer of 1939 was like? Where you were, what

you were doing? This is just before the war starts.

A: Okay.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Do you remember how your family spent that last summer?

A: We were at home. My father fi -- he was not working in Wolkowysk any more.

So-

Q: He had stopped his job?

A: He stopped his job, but -- I think couple years ago, but I really don't remember

which year. And so he -- and -- and -- and probably about three years or so, and

Jereczek was born, so Father was so happy that finally, I will raise this child. P'll be

--I will have him, and -- and he was very happy that it's a little boy, and so -- and

my brother was always trained for the army, because my father was so proud of his

boys. And I thought he doesn't love me.

Q: Oh.

A: But I -- but when he died, my brother says, you know you -- our father loved you

more than me.

Q: Oh really?

A: So I guess there is no --

Q: Yeah.

A: --no -- with children --

Q: Yes, yeah.

A: -- you never -- you never judge your father or mother.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: No. You can't tell.

A: Mm-mm.

Q: I mean, you're loved -- you're loved much more sometimes than you know.

A: Right, right.

Q: Yeah. So, do you remember the day that the war broke out? This was September

first.

A: Yes, yes.

Q: Where were you?

A: Iwas home. We didn't start the school, and -- and my father tell -- told my mom,

I'm gonna go to the village, and I'm gonna find out -- maybe they have some news,

and -- and maybe I can find out what's happening. And he -- he went, and -- and

there was an hour, two hours, three hours. My mom started to crying, and --

something happened to Dad. And she says, why don't you go to that village, a-and

maybe you will find Father.

Q: And this was September first?

A: Yes. Wait a minute. September -- yeah, that was --

Q: The fi -- when the war actually starts.

A: Yes, yes, yes.

Q: Okay. And what was the name of the village that he had gone to?

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Krupa.

Q: Krupa, all right. So who did she ask? She asked you to go?

A: My s-- my sist -- my sister and me. You didn't go?

A2: I don't think so.

A: Oh, so I probably went, maybe with neighbor's children.

Q: Okay.

A: Because we had one neighbor very close to us.

Q: Okay.

A: Because the -- the plans were, on your property, you -- you build, you know,

where you wanted. So -- so that was close to the river, close to the border, and --

Q: By border you mean the territ -- your -- parents" land?

A: Right.

Q: From the neighbors" land.

A: Right, right.

Q: Okay. So, you went to find your father in the village of Krupa?

A: Mm-hm.

Q: What happened? What did you find out?

A: On the -- on the way to it, my father was led by group of Byelorussian boys, with

the gun pointing at him, and walked towards us. Where they were walking -- I really The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

don't know wher-where they wanted him to go. At that point, wasn't yet towards

Lyskow. In the Lyskow was -- that was post office place, very small town. And in it

was place for the police, and apparently -- and they got the guns from the police

over there, and -- and police already was in the jail. And they were leading my

father there.

Q: To the jail.

A: To the jail.

Q: In Lyskow.

A: Yes. And my father just said, go to Mom and tell her what you saw.

Q: Okay, but I'm a little confused. You're saying this happened September first?

A: Oh, wait a minute. No, no, no, that's not -- not September first, that was 19"?

Q: September 19""?

A: September 19", yes.

Q: Okay, so --

A: I'm sorry.

Q: Okay. That's -- okay, that makes more sense, bec-because --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- September first is when Germany attacks.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Germany attacked. At that time, the radio still was working, and we heard the --

the news on the radio yet.

Q: Okay. [phone ringing] We can stop, please [break]

Q: Okay, so we were talking about the radio still worked, and was telling -- wi --

there was information over the radio that the germ -- Germany had attacked

Poland.

A: Right.

Q: Do you remember how your parents reacted? How --

A: Very, very worried.

Q: Okay.

A: Didn't know wha-what to do. And I really -- I really don't remember. They did --

they didn't want to upset us, you know, so that was a ri -- a lot of it was hush hush.

Q: Yeah.

A: Not -- not to tell children much.

Q: And the next two weeks is -- you know, did -- was there any more news? Did you

hear more things?

A: More on the radio. Yeah, we were -- we were getting some, but I don't remember

probably where the station was that they were getting the news. But --

Q: Did school start?

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: No.

Q: No school.

A: The school -- school starts -- my -- my parents didn't send us to school --

Q: Okay.

A: -- at that time. Up f-- at that time -- no, that was when the Russians came in. Then

-- then our help went. They didn't -- they didn't stay with us any more. But -- but at

this point, we were -- we were still being taken care of, as far as the people working

for us.

Q: And were the people who worked for you Byelorussian?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: From the villages. Mostly from -- from another village that has the same name as

our osada.

Q: Okay, a-as -- as your settlement.

A: As my settlement, yes.

Q: Which was bran --

A: Brantowce.

Q: Brantowce. So there was a village Brantowce, and there was a settlement of

Brantowce.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Right. And I heard that Brantowce name came from the family name Brant. So

--so he probably owned this -- this property of -- at our osada.

Q: Mm-hm, your settlement.

A: And the village at earlier times, you know, probably the village --

Q: I see.

A: -- belonged to him, and the people worked for him, and he -- I don't know how --

how it was working, but my father was paying to -- to those women or men, you

know, that were -- were working in the fields.

Q: And you said there were two or more people working in the fields?

A: Oh they -- no, no, in the fields there were sometimes hundred people.

Q: Oh really?

A: Because -- depending what was being done.

Q: So you mean, during the harvest time, or the --

A: Right.

Q: -- farming time, there could be many people.

A: Right, right.

Q: I see. And they would come as day laborers to work on this --

A: Day. And I know my father gave them one zloty, which is what, like one dollar.

So, each one got, so he always was prepared with those single -- single zlotys.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Did you have any interaction with these -- with the villagers who would come to

work with you -- work at your father's farm?

A: What kind of interactions, what did you --

Q: I mean, did you talk to them, did they talk to you, did you know them by name?

A: Oh yes, when I was riding the horse, they were screaming that I am gonna fell --

fall off. They -- they were sa -- shouting, [indecipherable] you gonna fall off the

horse. And I -- and I didn't care.

Q: Okay. So, what happens -- what happened after that? How did things progress?

You know, the war's declared, people are nervous. Nothing really much changes.

And then what happens?

A: Well, we -- we just sit and wait, and -- and get some news if you can. And if you

get nothing, that's --

Q: Okay.

A: But until ra -- Russians cross the border, that's when radios were cut, and

everything was cut. And Germans already got all the stations, so the cities on the

west, and -- and we just --

Q: So was --

A: -- completely became --

Q: Isolated.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: -- isolated, yes.

Q: So, does that -- on the day that no more news came over the radio, is that when

your father said, I'm going to go to fi-- that other village?

A: Right.

Q: Okay. And did you -- did you know that the Russians had crossed the border at

that time?

A: 1--we didn't. I don't remember, that was surprise when we saw the tanks rolling

down those roads. Because in our area, the roads were just a normal -- how do you

call? Field roads. But well used and everything, you know, so -- so that's what they

were rolling those tanks on, and they were coming and -- and so -- so they didn't

come to -- to our area, until the 19".

Q: Was your father already arrested by then?

A: No, that's -- that's when -- that's when they arrested my father, on the -- on the

second day.

Q: On the second day.

A: Because on the se -- we were quite a ways from the border, so they didn't come

to our area until next -- second day.

Q: Okay.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: So, early -- early in the morning he -- he went to find out the news, because he

always read, and he always had to know. He wanted to know everything what's

going on.

Q: And when he went to find out, when you went to find him --

A: They -- they -- they arrested him.

Q: And brought him to the jail in Lyskow.

A: Mm -- yeah.

Q: And then you went -- he told you to go home and tell your mother.

A: Yes.

Q: And -- yeah.

A: Oh, and he asked too that my -- our mom bring some clean clothes, and -- and

some f-food, because he didn't eat nothing from morning til -- I think my mother

probably got there maybe in the evening, she had to walk seven kilometers to the

Lyskow --

Q: Okay.

A: -- because --

Q: Why wouldn't she go by horse, or by cart?

A: I don't know, maybe she -- she went by -- by cart.

Q: Okay.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: That Id --I don't remember.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah. But my father had to walk.

Q: Okay.

A: And they walked him.

Q: Okay. So sh -- de -- was she able to see him?

A: That day, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: She -- and she gave him a clean clothes, an-and -- and food.

Q: And was there any reason given as to why he was arrested?

A: Because he was Polish.

Q: That was enough.

A: They were -- they were arresting all -- all people that were well -- well-to-do, so --

Q: And was your father -- your family considered well-to-do?

A: Yes. So they -- and -- and they didn't let my father go home, and they kept him,

and over there were -- were a policeman and -- and also Jakowinski(ph), the one

that I was telling you about, who has a car.

Q: Oh, so he was there too?

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: And -- and -- and his -- oh yeah, and his car was taken by the young Byelorussian

boys, the one that -- that was a chauffeur at --

Q: For him.

A: -- for him. So he -- he's the -- the one that owned that car, and the reason I know,

or we know, because when -- when my father was arrested second time, he was let

go once. My mother went to the village, and she was asking for the people to -- to

get -- to sign the petition for him, she got the whole list. I remember that list ve -- so,

so well, you know, that -- that he -- that my mother came home and is -- and she said

she gonna go now to -- to Lyskow, and she gonna ask the people to let -- let him

come home. But before that, he was taken to Wolkowysk -- no, no, no, that was

from Lyskow, they let him come beca-because my mother says there's nobody to

help me, and she had a little baby, and she was not healthy. So -- so --

Q: So that -- so her -- when she went to the village of Brantowce, not the settlement

but the village --

A: No, the -- not Brantowce, this was to Krupa.

Q: To Krupa. And were -- and people signed this petition --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- and it was to request that your father be let go?

A: Right.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Did she go to Byelorussian people, or to --

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: Well, they organized their own government.

Q: Okay.

A: Police was fi-- you know, how do you call it, fired or whatever. Arrested,

arrested.

Q: The police -- the police was arrest --

A: Arrested.

Q: -- relieved of their duties and then arrested.

A: And they -- and they rep-replaced that government with Byelorussian people.

Q: Why would the Byelorussian people from Krupa sign a petition to release your

father? What was in their interest for them to do that?

A: Because my father, he had to move the fish from the summer ponds, into the

winter ponds.

Q: Okay.

A: And -- and that had to be done manually.

Q: Okay.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: He usually had couple men that were doing it, but when they let him go, then he

came and -- and he moved the --

Q: The fish.

A: -- the fish himself.

Q: So e-- he was allowed to leave because there was nece -- necessary work to be

done --

A: Right.

Q: And the new --

A: And they didn't want to do.

Q: And they didn't want to do this work?

A: Mm-hm.

Q: Okay.

A: And my father paid for it. That he -- they were not free, you know, they -- they

were coming, and -- and I ni--I saw my father every time they -- the people were

working, he always had some money to give.

Q: Okay. So the villagers in Krupa, their reason to sign the petition is that they

didn't want to do the work that needed to be done, and it was to let your father go so

he could do it.

A: Right, right.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Okay. And the -- and the people who let him go were local people, was that

right? It was local people who arrested him, and local people who let him go?

A: Parth -- part of that -- that group, that Byelorussian people.

Q: And did you -- when you had seen him on the road, had you recognized the -- the

people who were guarding him? Did you know who they were?

A: No, no.

Q: Okay.

A: We -- we didn't know because usually children like us, you know, that -- of the

people with the property, or that had little -- and Polish people, because there -- there

was a lot of Polish people that were buying land here. It was for sale, and they

would move from the western part, here.

Q: Okay.

A: So that was something that was done all the -- all the time after the first World

War.

Q: Did the be -- were -- had relations been bad with the local Byelorussian people?

A: From Krupa children were be -- very bad. I'm talking about children.

Q: Okay.

A: They were throwing -- throw -- sta --

Q: Stones?

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: --rocks, stone at us, shouting at us, calling us -- how did they call Irchu(ph)?

Polaki(ph)? Polaki(ph), and -- and something else.

A2: With the dogs -- with dogs they were, and the dogs --

A: With dogs they -- they were chasing us. So we -- we used to go in the back of the

village, we couldn't go through the middle. And --

Q: This is before the war?

A: That was before the war.

Q: Okay.

A: So they -- they were preparing -- they knew probably what was -- will come, and

happen.

Q: You think so, huh?

A: I think so.

Q: Okay.

A: I think it was planned real well.

Q: Your father is released, and he comes back and he moves the fish from the

summer pond to the winter pond.

A: Yeah, yeah, and -- and that's all the -- in barns, and -- and feeds the stock and --

and all, you know, until -- until he is arrested second time.

Q: When was he -- how was he arrested the second time, what happened?

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: It was January fifth.

Q: So three months had gone by?

A: Mm-hm.

Q: And --

A: And then --

Q: Okay, and then January fifth, what happened?

A: And then the -- that car from Jakowinski(ph) --

Q: So, that had belonged to him.

A: -- that drives up.

Q: Right.

A: And it's winter, and it's parked in the house -- front of the house, and we -- we

just -- it was cold outside, so we -- we didn't play, and besides that, it was such a

time that -- that we were not sure what's going on. And so -- so we see from the car

comes out couple sol -- Russian soldiers, and -- and with them comes that

Jakowinski's(ph) chauffeur. And that chauffeur was a relative of our neighbor. Our

neighbor was married to a Byelorussian woman. Very nice woman, I have no bad

word about her. And -- and he comes and leads those people, and tells them things,

that my father was so and so, the bad one, you know. All the bad words that he

could find. He di-- he never saw my father before, or maybe saw because my father The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

co -- sometimes visited Jakowinski(ph). So -- but that was -- I -- I --I--I don't know

why -- why he did it, or, well, probably for his benefit. And -- and -- and they ask my

father to show his pictures. So he, of course, has taken the -- not the family albums,

he took the -- his -- from -- from the jail, with all his friends, and the -- and -- and they

started, you know, telling that my father was so bad, that my father was beating

them, and -- and -- and things -- things that I was listening, I -- I don't even remember

any more. But he was li -- he was accused so badly.

Q: In front of you, in front of all the children?

A: In--in--in front of all the family. And the -- and -- and then -- then they take that

-- that was a little -- we used to take little cases like that to the beach here. And that

was my father's little suitcase that he kept his papers and army -- army papers and

everything. They took everything. And then they told my father, get dressed, put

war -- warm col -- clothes on, and we're taking you to the Wolkowysk to check how

-- how much truth you're telling us.

Q: So he was -- he was saying no, I didn't do these things, no, I'm not the way

you're accusing me, is that what the case was?

A: I would say so.

Q: Okay.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: But -- but then I-- 1-1 just remembered, you know, that ho-how could they -- I

felt, you know, how can they say, when my father is so nice, and he was so nice to

them, you know? And so -- so anyway, so -- so Father get dressed, and then it came

to say goodbye to him. It was last time for 11 years.

Q: Oh my.

A: And so -- so we didn't -- we just hugged him, you know. Of course, first time I

saw him crying. I guess he knew. He knew that that's the last time we see each

other. And -- and then comes our neighbor, that Russian wife, Byelorussian wife of

our neighbor. And -- a-a-and this young punk tries to block his aunt's -- that was his

aunt -- way to the house. She pushed him, she didn't care. She -- she just says, I am

coming to -- to say goodbye to my neighbor. And -- and -- and -- and she was -- she

was so brave. And I still wrote to her daughter not too long ago, because I -- I've -- I

found a address of her, and -- and -- and I -- and children are so nice. I visited them

when I was there. So -- so it's --

Q: You can't --

A: --in the family can be -- can be too different -- different children, two different

members.

Q: Yeah.

A: And you cannot answer for them.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Yeah. So you say there were two Russian soldiers, and this sh -- ex-chauffeur --

A: Yes.

Q: -- who came. So there were three of them who had been accusing your father.

And the two Russian soldiers were strangers?

A: They were -- yeah, they --

Q: They were not from the area.

A: -- the Russian -- the Russians th-ther -- they were just trying to organize,

apparently, tha-that area, you know, and -- and of course they -- they knew they let

my father go before, so this time they are taking him for -- for good, to the -- to the

Wolkowysk jail.

Q: Okay.

A: Here was just a little -- little room, or big room, in which they put probably 50

people. But the Wolkowysk there is a big, big jail. I have a picture in my book.

Q: Okay. Is this the same jail your father had worked in?

A: That's -- yes.

Q: Okay. And three months had passed before they arrested him. That is, between

the time, the first, he was released, and the time he came again --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- what were those three months like for your family?

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Well, I-- my brother was in high school in Wolkowysk. And after -- aft -- when

war started, he didn't go back -- no, that -- sorry, he was there til chr -- til Christmas.

Q: Okay.

A: And after Christmas, he didn't return.

Q: Okay.

A: Because he said, they don't teach nothing in sc -- in school now, because they

replaced all those teachers, professors, they arrested. So -- so we -- we had no Polish

teachers, and Byelorussians not too many were educated. There was one -- depends

if they could afford.

Q: Okay.

A: And -- and there were some people, I'm not saying that they were or -- all poor.

Q: Okay.

A: No, they -- an -- there were some. And -- and those, even in our osada.

Q: Your settlement, mm-hm.

A: Our settlement. We had one teacher, that she was educated, but they were not

Polish citizens, that was a Russian family that stayed here in Poland somehow, and

that they were not supposed to -- not -- not forced to return to Russia.

Q: Okay.

A: So, and their daughter was educated, and she had no obywatelstwo.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: What's that mean?

A: Obet -- that you help.

A2: Citizen.

A: Obywatelstwo.

Q: No citizen -- no citizensh --

A: Citiz -- no citizenship, ri --

Q: Okay.

A: That's right.

Q: Okay.

A: So --so he -- she became teacher.

Q: Okay.

A: And she was teaching, but my brother said that in -- in the high school in

Wolkowysk, there was no professors.

Q: Okay.

A: We - we called them professors. Here are teachers, only. So -- so --

Q: So in --

A: -- my brother stayed with us --

Q: Home, mm-hm.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: And I was the one that was feeding the stock, and going -- going from barn to

barn.

Q: And there were no more workers to help you?

A: No.

Q: No. Okay.

A: Nobody. And we had no money to pay, because the money was -- Polish zloty

wasn't --I don't know how -- how my mother was paying for -- for stuff, because

she -- she once -- sent us to the city, a-and to the village, to -- to buy soap, or

something, Irchu(ph), what did we buy?

A2: I think was sugar or something.

A: Something that -- to buy anything, and the store -- store was almost empty,

nothing.

Q: Okay.

A: They already --

Q: So what did you do after your father's arrest?

A: Just sat there and -- and waited, and didn't have to wait too long.

Q: What happened?

A: Tenth of February, we were deported, just month and five days later.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Did you -- oh my. Tell me about that. Tell me about this -- this deportation. How

did this occur?

A: Well, it-- four o'clock in the morning, of course we were sleeping. And the not --

not expecting anything. Of course, very upset that Father is gone. My brother was --

went with one nice Russian -- Byelorussian man, went to Wolkowysk, and -- to see

my father and to take some food for him, and they didn't let him see my father. And

I don't know what was the reason. And --

Q: So he was not at home?

A: Pardon?

Q: Your brother was not at home?

A: No, no, no, brother went -- right, he was not with us, he went to Wolkowysk.

Q: Right.

A: And then came back and -- and -- and he said that he didn't see Father, but they

took the things that -- that he too -- took to my father.

Q: Okay.

A: So ha--

Q: Oh, so he was at home when the -- when -- at four o'clock in the morning? It was

your mother --

A: Yes.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: -- your brother --

A: Yes.

Q: -- your sister, and your little brother.

A: And baby brother.

Q: And baby brother. Okay. And how -- at four o'clock in the morning they came in

trucks, in wagons, in that big car?

A: Wagons, bu -- open -- open sanie, which is -- how do you call those?

A2: Sled.

A: Sleds.

Q: A sled?

A: Yes.

Q: A sleigh.

A: Sleigh.

Q: Okay.

A: Good.

Q: So, with horses.

A: R-Right.

Q: Okay.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: So they came with those and -- and -- and -- and they said [speaks foreign

language here]

Q: What does that mean?

A: Get ready, we're moving you to another state.

Q: Okay. How much -- how much time did you have?

A: We had a lot, because some people don't have that much.

Q: Okay.

A: But we were on the main road.

Q: Okay.

A: So -- so everybody from our settlement were brought even to our house --

Q: Soa--

A: -- to -- to wait.

Q: I see.

A: So--so when they brought everybody, then they s -- they pull -- put us in the row

of sleds that were carrying -- I carried to Wolkowysk. Apparently that was just open

ro -- long, long -- I don't know how to s -- call that, but --

Q: So there was more than one sleigh?

A: Oh, my gosh, there was, all the time, all the time. So they had to stop this group,

and pull -- pull -- put us from this settlement inside, in a-- a mi-- in middle of it, and The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

then let those to follow us. But that was from like four o'clock to 10 oclo -- I think

it's about 10 --

Q: Okay, okay, I'm still confused. I -- I asked how long did you have to get ready, to

put your things together.

A: Okay, so --

Q: How long was it?

A: That's what I am trying to say now.

Q: Yeah?

A: From four o'clock til --

A2: Two hours.

A: How many?

A2: Two hours they gave us.

A: No, it was more.

A2: That's what I remember he says, in two hours --

A: It was more.

A2:--we are le -- you are leaving.

Q: Okay, your sister is saying it was two hours.

A2: They gave us.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: My question is -- okay, you -- how much time -- within your house, before you go

outside, how much time did you have to get ready, to put things together, to take

something, and what did you take?

A: I--I didn't --I couldn't do nothing. My mom was running with the baby in her --

Q: Arms.

A: -- baby -- with -- with her arms. And she -- she couldn't do nothing. She was very

confused, and didn't do nothing. Luckily, we had a nice soldier that he st -- he took

either suitcases -- but there was no -- no need really, because they were dropping

everything on the floor, on the -- on the -- from the -- how do you -- cabinets, from

the cabinets, into the -- on a-- on a blanket on the floor, and tied the ends.

Q: So what did they drop into the -- into the --

A: Everything, whatever they found. And -- and th-there was one kufer, which is

like a big -- how do you call those? For the bed. Sheets.

Q: Okay.

A: Sheets and -- and -- and comforters, and a -- everything. But only sheets were in

that big kufer.

Q: What's a kufer?

A: Kufer is a--a--a--

A2: A trunk.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: A trunk?

A: Trunk, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: A big trunk.

Q: Okay, so --

A: And with the key, and -- and --

Q: So you took a trunk with you?

A: Yes, they gave us.

Q: Your own trunk that you could take with you.

A: And it had everything except there was some more stuff of that sort they took out

from drawers, and filled up that -- that -- that -- and that was our saving for the

Siberia.

Q: So-

A: If we didn't have, we would not survive.

Q: So in other words, the soldiers who came to arrest you saw that your mother was

distracted, you were distracted, and you didn't know how to pack, and they were

packing for you.

A: Right.

Q: And -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: One only. They left -- I think they left one only soldier.

Q: Okay. And what about your brother, your older brother, what was he doing?

A: I don't know. They maybe kept him with the gun. I don't know, did you

remember?

A2: Can I talk?

Q: I think that let's --

A: I think --

Q: = let's hold on --

A: -- yeah.

Q: -- let's cut for a second.

A: Oh, okay. [tape break]

Q: Okay, so it was this one young Russian soldier who was helping to pack up --

A: Right.

Q: -- when -- and when your mother so distre -- and you're distracted, and so on.

A: Okay.

Q: And you were li -- who lifted that big trunk onto the sleigh?

A: They did.

Q: Did they?

A: Maybe my brother was helping.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: It could be that he was helping. I only took books. My mom said, take a book to

teach Jereczek Polish.

Q: Okay.

A: Because when we get there, we will not leave that place, and ye -- Jereezek had

to le-learn Polish.

Q: Polish.

A: So-- so I took a couple books.

Q: Okay.

A: And I took albums.

Q: Photo albums?

A: Photo albums. When they saw tha-that I -- I am holding that, they took and -- oh,

and the s -- oven was on to -- to heat --

Q: The house.

A: -- the house, because -- and -- and it was a fire there.

Q: Okay.

A: And he grabbed those albums and threw them in the fire.

Q: Oh my.

A: So I--I did -- don't have even a -- a one picture of my mom, nothing.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Oh my. Oh my. And did you take food? Did any -- was there any food to take?

A: They did some -- they prepared some, they -- they told us, oh you can take meat

grinder, and kind of laughing, you know? They knew that -- that there will be no --

no meat to grind there. So-- so my mother said no, I -- I don't want. She kind of

sensed everything what was going on.

Q: Okay, now once they've put this together, now explain to me why you had so

much time. I wasn't understanding that before. You said, you know, you were

amongst the last to be picked up?

A: Mm.

Q: When you went outside, what kind of a vision did you see? What di -- did you

see many, many sleighs?

A: Right.

Q: With people?

A: Right.

Q: Okay. And why is that if you were the last to pick up -- to be picked up, you had

so much time? I would have thought they would give you less time, because

everybody is waiting in those sleighs, and it's cold outside.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: I don't know, I don't know. Well -- well anyway, I -- I wanted also to take a--a

picture of my patron, Saint Stanistaw Kostka. And -- and it was made on a silk. So

my mom told me, take it off-- out --

Q: Okay.

A: -- and put it in your pocket. And I put it in my pocket, and down. Oh, and -- and

the clothes, they -- they told us to put my father's clothes, so they were dragging,

you know, and whatever; but they were warm. So over our c-clothes, winter clothes,

we still put my father's --

Q: Clothes.

A: -- clothes.

Q: Okay.

A: And so by --I-- I always thought that about nine o'clock, we were already

packed, because they would -- whatever they would pack, they would take to the

sled. And --

Q: Did you have more -- did you have more than one trunk?

A: The trunk was at the end of the sle -- sled, and then we -- we had our seats there.

Q: Okay.

A: And -- and they put the comforters for us to sit in, and so we wrapped ourselves.

My mom didn't know what to do, how to take baby.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Yeah.

A: So -- so she took two pillows, and put Jereczek in between those and try to block

the cold air and everything from him. So -- so sh-she -- she was saying, I don't know

if he will live. Maybe he's choked, and everything. But somehow he survived. So --

so when we were dri -- I want to say driving -- riding those sleds, we got halfway

only to station, to Wolkowysk. So they took us into the palace of -- don't remember

already names.

Q: Okay.

A: I--I di--I should have prepared myself, but --

Q: It's okay. But it was a -- a local palace.

A: A local palace in one of the villages, halfway to Wolkowysk.

Q: So it was like a large estate?

A: Very.

Q: Okay.

A: And that was a -- and they -- they took all the sleds that were behind us, and --

and us in there. And I remembered where I was sitting, because we couldn't sl-sleep

there.

Q: Okay.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: It was so many people, and I was sitting with my -- my sister and my brother by

the window. So when we came in, I went -- I-I'm talking about my trip -- I went

straight to that place, and I said that's -- that's where we were sitting.

Q: Oh, that is when you -- when you --

A: Oh, that night.

Q: Yeah.

A: That night. We spend the night there.

Q: So, you're talking when you took a trip to your hometown many years later.

A: Right.

Q: That you found the palace, and -- and you've --

A: Found the pla -- yes.

Q: -- you told them where you were sitting.

A: And I remember when -- I remembered everything vividly. Nothing -- now I am

losing memory, but when I was writing my book, I -- 1 --1 remembered everything

as if I'm there now.

Q: Yeah.

A: So -- so that's very --

Q: Was this -- was this palace one of Polish nobility?

A: Yes.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: So it had been --

A: [indecipherable] they were arrested also, either killed, or -- or --

Q: Okay.

A: -- or like my father, taken to a gulag.

Q: Okay. What was the manner of these -- I mean, it sounds -- it sounds actually, as

rough as the soldier was, he was doing you a kindness --

A: Yes.

Q: -- by -- by helping pack things up.

A: Yes, he was -- he was very nice, and you know, children will sometimes hold the

hands, and -- and their hands are freezing, and whatever. When he saw my hands, he

says -- he started -- you take your -- that hand, and you kind of roll in between yours,

and -- to warm it up.

Q: Really?

A: And he -- he did -- he did that for me. And -- and then my -- my mom, you know,

when our sled, on one -- on the way back next day, s -- fell over, and we ended up in

the snow, he was helping us and -- and it was -- i-i-- Russian soldiers, they have to

be th-the way they -- they are. They have to be in doing what Stalin told them. But

some of them, they are forced to do that.

Q: So you could tell they didn't want to.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Right, right. So they -- they had -- and they -- they had good people and bad

people like everywhere else.

Q: And was -- was -- were other soldiers like him who were -- who were taking -- I

meant, those who came to take you, or was there manner in general --

A: Right, it wasn't like that.

Q: Okay.

A: They -- when they left, that's when he started. Because it came five of them, and

then only one or two, I -- I -- that I don't remember already.

Q: Okay.

A: So, I--I would have to read my book and maybe refresh.

Q: That's okay. But it -- but it means that when he was left alone, and there was no

one else to see him --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- he could afford to be helpful.

A: He showed -- yeah, he showed his feeling for us, you know --

Q: Okay.

A: -- what they were doing.

Q: So, you stayed overnight there, near the window --

A: Yeah.

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January 28, 2015

Q: -- in this palace?

A: Mm-hm.

Q: And what was the next day like?

A: Next day they put -- took us to this -- the same sled, but there were things missing

already. So somebody stole some of the food.

Q: Okay.

A: And so whatever we took from the home, already wasn't -- wasn't as much there

as -- as it was taken. So -- but --

Q: And then you say you'd continued the journey?

A: Continued the journey to the train.

Q: And where was the train?

A: And th-the train was in Wolkowysk, at the station, not too far from my uncle.

And my -- my mom's aunt. So -- and in -- on the way close to Wolkowysk, I saw a

sled, a small sled, you know, and -- coming with the horses real fast, and looking at

us all the time. And the people. Not -- not especially us, you know, but -- but trying

to identify.

Q: Oh, I see.

A: When they saw my mom, and us, they turned around.

Q: Do you know who it was?

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January 28, 2015

A: It was my aunt and my uncle. No, my -- I'm sorry, not my -- that -- she -- that was

my babcia. That's my mom's aunt. Oh, no, no, thank you, I have --

Q: Okay, okay.

A: And -- and babcia, that's the one that I -- I was tal-talking about, that's my -- my

mo -- babcia, my mom's ciocia.

Q: Yeah.

A: Okay. So -- so they turned around, and they went back to Wolkowysk, because

they -- they knew where.

Q: They knew that it was you.

A: Yes. And then, apparently, Babcia watched all the time, which -- which boxcar,

because those were animal thi-things. And which -- which one was the -- the one that

they pushed us in. So, after -- after we got in, a Russian soldier came and naw --

opened the door, and -- and told Babcia to -- to give what she had. She brought --

Q: That's unusual.

A: -- she brought so-some -- how do you call? Tea, hot tea, and some sandwiches.

And she wanted to take Irka(ph). And Irka(ph) was smaller, so -- so she thought

she can raise her. And Irk-Irka(ph) was holding so -- so hard to my mom's hand

that -- an-and they didn't let her to be taken away.

Q: So, she wouldn't go?

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January 28, 2015

A: She wouldn't go.

Q: Okay. Would the soldier have let her go?

A: Force her? No, no.

Q: Not force her, but would she -- if she had wanted to, do you think --

A: I don't know. I have no idea. Maybe he would.

Q: What you describe sounds very unusual, that someone was allowed close enough

to the train --

A: Right.

Q: -- to give -- to give water, or food, or tea, or something like that.

A: Well, she spoke Russian. He possibly thought that she's Russian, and she was

[indecipherable] and whatever, Polish. So -- and -- and she was living there all her

life. Because there -- there were Polish and -- and there were lithu -- Lithuanian also

Q: Yeah.

A: I'm sure. So -- so that -- and that is not unusual, but -- but after she spoke Russian,

she talk -- he didn't know, and he let her --

Q: And he let her --

A: -- let her gaved whatever he brought --

Q: She brought, yeah. What were the boxcars like? What did they look like?

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January 28, 2015

A: There was three levels, so when you get -- got in, you couldn't sit, you -- you

should -- you could get in and -- and just lay there, or -- or sleep. And otherwise, you

couldn't sit in there. So it --

Q: So who helped you put your trunk in the boxcar?

A: They -- whoever was, you know, I'm sure my brother was one.

Q: Okay.

A: And my brother was very -- like in charge of ev-everything, so -- so he watched.

But as far as food, we didn't have much, because somebody stole. But -- but my

mom did little bit of this, you know.

Q: But your mother was there with an infant, with a baby.

A: Yes, and -- and when we -- we got there, she -- she thought that she gon -- he

gonna have a real -- a real red butt, because he wasn't changed all day, and -- and

between the two pillows. So -- but everything was okay. We took him all the way to

Siberia.

Q: And you had to change diapers on the lo -- on the way.

A: Yes. I don't know how my mom -- mom did that. Maybe she just -- or if -- if he --

he -- he was still milking my mom. At that time I don't know if she had anything,

but she -- she had whatever she had, and otherwise I -- I think she tried to substitute.

He was -- he was at that time, only from June to -- about eight months old. So -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

Q: Did he cry?

A: First he did, and I remember my mom said, when -- when we were on the way,

and he was about -- between those pillows, she heard him cry. But then she says, oh,

he -- he quit crying. So maybe she -- he is asleep. But then she says, or maybe he is

not alive. So -- so things -- things were -- you know, everything wasn't sure.

Q: So wa -- was she on a lower plank, or on an upper plank?

A: They -- they got us in between, so we -- we had -- so -- so it was probably above

the -- the lower, an-and the -- and the lower wer-were suitcases. And on this one was

--Idon't -- my hand is not good. Probably that wa -- that high. And the -- and the

third one -- the -- the best was for the highest people, but you know, men or -- or -- or

somebody that is more quicker, not with baby, you know, they took those places,

and we got, you know, some who are in between. So --

Q: Why would they be the best places, the ones on top?

A: More air. It was -- it was mo -- more space.

Q: Okay.

A: And in between was -- you had to breathe so -- so the air was coming from here

and there. Was kind of stuffy. But --

Q: Did you know any of the other people in your boxcar?

A: No.

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January 28, 2015

Q: No.

A: No, because when we were riding on a -- with those sleds, our -- our sled turned

over, and then everybody went, so the neighbors from -- from the -- our osada, they

went, and we stayed be -- until they lifted the sled, and put us back into the sled.

And then w -- then we were coming with different -- different people.

Q: I see.

A: So when they put us in -- and there was 60 people in our boxcar.

Q: Sixty.

A: So 30 on one side, 30 on the other.

Q: Were there other people who had babies? Were there more babies?

A: Not in our boxcar.

Q: Okay.

A: Only Jereczek.

Q: So what happened after that? You're in the boxcar, what happens?

A: Well then -- then we waited, I think two days, by the time they apparently the

whole -- there was about hundred -- hundred of those boxcars, full of deportees, and

--and then -- and then we started going. But they -- in -- in this area, between bra --

no, between -- oh my gosh, again no name. Well [indecipherable] next -- next The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

station when -- when the large station, when they got us there, we had to wait for

Baranowicze.

Q: Baranowicze.

A: I got it, Baranowicze. There they were changing the tracks from European width

to the Russian. So we had to wait there until they finish. When they finished, it was

like second day or third day, something like that. And then -- then we had to carry

everything from -- from this one to -- to the other one.

Q: Oh, so you changed, actually, cattle cars.

A: Right. And there, we had little more room --

Q: Okay.

A: -- than -- than on the Polish ones. So they had -- then we got -- also on the lower,

but -- but there wasn't three of them, was --

Q: It was two --

A: -- it was two.

Q: -- it was two platforms.

A: Two -- two platforms, yes.

Q: I see. Okay.

A: So---so it was a little -- a little easier.

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January 28, 2015

Q: And was it a-- everybody from the firs -- from the di -- was it everybody who

was in one boxcar then gets transferred to the same boxcar on the next train, or di --

A: Probably --

Q: Okay.

A: -- because they -- they were keeping really soldiers were standing so nobody will

run away.

Q: Okay.

A: So = so that's --

Q: So that -- at that point did you know you were in the Soviet Union?

A: No, it wasn't yet.

Q: It wasn't yet.

A: Because Baranowicze --

Q: Is still Poland.

A: -- is still Poland. So to the border was still quite a few miles --

Q: Okay.

A: -- or kilometers.

Q: So what happened after that, how did things go?

A: Well, then -- then we started rolling, once they packed us all. And we were -- we

were going fast, and people were watching, you know, some of them, there's -- you The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

know, there is about two -- two windows on one side, on -- on top. So -- so we were

watching some of them. You know, if you were lucky, where is the Polish border?

Q: Could they find it, could they see it?

A: We saw, and -- and they started singing [speaks Polish] and things like that, you

know.

Q: What are those? Are those --

A: Hymn. Polish, and -- and -- and -- and prayers, church --

Q: Can you -- would you mind singing one of those so -- hymns?

A: [indecipherable] I will take. I think one of the very -- very much loved is

[Polish]

Q: If that was being sung, then please, I would appreciate it.

A: [sings in Polish]

Q: And that was --

A: That was --

Q: -- that was a hymn.

A:--a hymn. That's -- that's a church song. Pope Johns Paul the second loved that

very much.

Q: Oh yeah?

A: That was -- and -- and -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

Q: And so the boxcar would just sing that --

A: Singing all the Polish, one after the other, so --

Q: How -- how could you tell -- how could those who --

A: Sorry my voice is --

Q: L appreciate that you sang it. Thank you. How could you tell when you were pro

-- crossing the border, that this is Poland, and this is no longer Poland? What

looked different?

A: And there were wires, how do you call those wires, with the --

Q: Barbed wires?

A: Yes. So -- so that -- that --

Q: It was a barbed wire fence.

A: -- barb -- barb wire fence, yet.

Q: Were you near the window?

A: [know I could see, so apparently people were nice enough to -- to let children,

you know --

Q: Take a look.

A: -- climb up and -- and take a look.

Q: Okay.

A: And we had to do it quickly.

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January 28, 2015

Q: Of course.

A: Just a--a look and -- and that's it.

Q: Yeah. And then --

A: And then the train was speeding so fast, and maybe it wasn't so much, but you

just -- you just see that it's going away, and th -- so fast, you know, so -- so I --I just

remember that, and --

Q: Did you cry a lot?

A: As a child, you -- you don't know so much what's happening. My mom -- oh, my

-- our mom fainted. When the train -- that was yet in Wolkowysk, when the train

moved --

Q: Okay, the first train, yeah.

A: -- the first -- my -- our mom fainted. And we cried and cried because we didn't

know what happened. I -- I never saw my mother faint, you know, and -- and all of a

sudden, you know, she's -- I thought she died. And once -- one lady, apparently she

was maybe nurse, and she -- she had smelling --

Q: Salts.

A: -- salt -- salts, and -- and she do -- did that to her [indecipherable]

Q: So to bring her back.

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January 28, 2015

A: To bring her back, yes. And -- an-and then I -- I don't know if she fainted again,

or -- or not, but --

Q: How did people behave with one another on that train, on that car?

A: Oh, we were -- we were like -- we didn't know each other, but -- but we -- we

talked to each other like to your brother or sister, because that's all -- you are -- you

are sitting here and -- and you're -- you're going. Going to the same place, going

from your home, a warm har -- home. And -- an-and I don't know if you want to

hear about conditions in that.

Q: Yes.

A: In--we didn't have any toilets, of course. The only thing, there was a hole in the

floor, and -- and nothing else. No -- no cover, no nothing, so -- so how -- how do you

do that? Some -- some people had extra blankets. They somehow managed to h -- to

hang it up, to -- to cover --

Q: Hide it.

A: -- make it private. So that was it. But, it was fro -- freezing temperature. It didn't

take long until that hole was all fr-frozen, and no more hole. So the only way you

could empty yourself, outside. So everybody, didn't matter, a lady or -- or -- ora

man, or -- or -- or who -- the child, everybody had to go --

Q: Outside.

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January 28, 2015

A: -- outside. And a Russian soldier would stand with a gun over you. Y-You open

your -- your panties [indecipherable] and it became, you know, everything -- you

have to go. But eventually when -- when you didn't eat so much, so you didn't need

to go so much.

Q: So how often would they open the train doors?

A: I think maybe twice a day. So -- so that was -- and -- and another thing was they

gave you a loaf of bread the first day, and a bucket of water for -- for all -- for whole

60 people.

Q: Oh my goodness.

A: So--so we -- we didn't get much food, and of course that -- that wasn't en -- and

how much water did you get when you have a -- a bucket of water? So -- so you just

get cup or something, you know.

Q: So people must have been hungry very quickly.

A: Well, hungry and -- but gradually your stomach gets -- gets --

Q: Adjusted?

A: -- adjusted to that, right.

Q: Did anybody get sick on the train?

A: Everybody. They -- they were sick, they were dying.

Q: There were de -- people who were dying in your car?

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis ia

January 28, 2015

A: And babies -- babies I've seen they threw out. They -- you couldn't carry it

because it wouldn't -- and can you imagine the mother, losing a child? So --

Q: Did this happen in your boxcar too?

A: No. Luckily, in our boxcar there was no dead person.

Q: Okay. But you saw in the other boxcars.

A: But we saw through that little window, once in a while, you know. Or sometimes

the door was opening, and they were carrying out from the other door. So they

didn't consider people as people. To them was like animal carrying the -- I've seen

so many dead, so many.

Q: What happened where you got -- when did you -- where did you end up? Where

did the train take you?

A: It took us to a station -- through vol -- Moscow, Vologda, and at Vologda our

train turned north towards Arkhangelsk. And on the way to Arkhangelsk, at the

station that -- I have it in my book, but not in my head, finally they stopped the train

and si--told us to take our stuff out. They had, again, sleds waiting for us. They

helped my -- my brother, or probably one of the people was helping to -- to put that

trunk on. And -- and us -- and my sister and I and my mom, we were allowed to ride,

but not my brother. My brother had to walk.

Q: Your 15 year old brother.

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January 28, 2015

A: My 15 years old brother. And he walked all way to -- to Shilova. Every night we

would stop in a village, Russian village, of the people that were also deportees from

the first -- from the revolution --

Q: Really?

A: -- Russian revolution. And at one house a woman, when she saw my mom, she st

-- with the baby, she started crying. Apparently she had a baby too, and -- when she

was deported, and now -- now --

Q: She sees someone else.

A: -- she -- she sees one and she -- she started t-telling my mother -- my mother spoke

Russian, because she was through -- through a couple, in German and -- and Russian

occupations. So to -- to my mother, the languages were not strange. And -- and then

-- then sh -- we -- I don't know why she took us downstairs, but as we were walking

downstairs, there was a little curtain, and she opened that, and she showed a Blessed

Mother picture, and she says, I too believe in God. And didn't -- didn't say much,

because they are afraid, you know, their -- they were afraid. So -- so -- so we slept

there on the floor. They provided just floor because that's all they had, probably one

bed for themselves, and -- and nothing else. So that was our first night. Then s --

then I think we -- we had like four or five -- they're in the book.

Q: Okay.

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January 28, 2015

A: And --

Q: How long did it take to get to Slishko(ph)?

A: To Shilova?

Q: Shilova, excuse me.

A: A week.

Q: Okay. And your brother walked the whole time.

A: And -- and every day he had to walk.

Q: And what about your baby brother, your -- the other brother?

A: The -- the baby brother was okay yet, and my mom -- but he had very clean -- she

probably had enough powder or whatever, you know, to -- to help him to heal and --

but that's -- that's all she ca -- she could do. But that woman was very helpful. Well,

I guess we -- we met a lot of people on the way, good people. I cannot -- cannot

complain. There were bad people, but those not necessarily were Russians. They

could be Polish. Because when they stole something, I don't think the Russian

would carry, because -- although, who knows? I don't know.

Q: So did this lady -- did this lady have food to give you as well, or --

A: Just kipiatok.

Q: And what's kipiatok?

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January 28, 2015

A: Just hot water. And they -- they all had ra -- rationing, so we -- we -- we couldn't

expect and -- or if--if the government gave them something, you know, but

otherwise -- and like they appar -- apparently expected that we did take enough food,

you know, for that.

Q: So when you get to Shilova, what is -- what did you find there?

A: They put us in one room, two families. And the room was maybe a -- like this

living room to -- til -- to here. From there maybe it's even -- this is ba -- bigger. And

--and one side was boards, and nothing else, no mattresses, no nothing, for one

family, and the other si-side boards also sta -- you know, it's like a table, and -- and

Q: So was it like a room that would be 10 by 10? Ten feet by ten feet, or -- about

half the size of this living room?

A: Yeah, that's -- that's all, only -- only that much.

Q: Okay.

A: And there was one table, small table in the middle, by the window. And two --

two chairs, but not real chairs like we have, the one with the back.

Q: Right.

A: So -- and -- and then there was one small bed yet, a real -- real bed. That -- that

one was my s -- my brothers". So four of us in -- in one, across, because otherwise The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

would be not enough room for -- for -- for us. So -- so we did across, legs -- legs

probably my Mom's were falling -- showing. And -- and the same, the other family

was three children and the father and mother. So --

Q: So five people on one, and five in the other.

A: Yeah.

Q: Ten people in this small room.

A: In this small room, and one stove, and one of those, like many, many years ago,

when there was no electric type stoves, or -- or electric whatever, you know, it's --

it's very primitive. So -- so that's all. Do you -- then the next day, they came, the

[indecipherable] is the one that's in charge of whole -- whole 800 people there that

they brought. In -- in that they -- they -- he comes, and he asks who is -- who is the

man in the family. And the only man was my -- my brother. One person has to work,

he said. So you're going to work, at 15, with the men, with adults. And whatever --

whatever he earned during the day -- if he didn't make his ra-arash -- a ration?

Q: Quota?

A: Quota.

Q: Quota, mm-hm.

A: If he didn't make his quota, he would get less -- less bread. There was soup and

bread that they could -- could get when they were working, once a day. And -- an- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

and bread, they could divide for morning and -- and on lunch. And if -- if they

didn't, you know, then they didn't have it.

Q: So what did they do in Shilova, what was ki -- what was the work that your

brother had to do?

A: Cutting. Cutting tr-trees, trimming branches on them, and -- a-and putting them

in a-- a mound that they were told that that's how it sh -- the measurements have to

be, the -- the length of it, and -- and -- and so much high -- height, and -- and so -- so

that's what my brother was supposed to -- and I -- I didn't know until I read my

brother's report when he -- when he was getting into the army, Polish army. So -- so

at that time, he wrote that he was not getting enough food, and they were cutting,

and that's why he was getting sick being there.

Q: So that meant your -- your older brother was working as an adult, even though he

was 15 years old.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: And was his ration, his food, for the whole family?

A: No, that was for him.

Q: Okay.

A: But only as much --

Q: As he worked.

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January 28, 2015

A: --as each person should get it.

Q: And so they said he didn't me -- ma -- meet his quota --

A: So---

Q: -- and so he would get less food.

A: Right, right.

Q: And the -- I mean, it sounds like the cards were stacked against him, because he

was a boy to begin with --

A: Right, right.

Q: -- to have to do an adult job.

A: Mm-hm. So -- and on the first summer, he came home, they brought him home

sick.

Q: So he didn't come home every day?

A: No, he was in the camp for half a year, for New Year's -- New Year's day they

would give the day, that was holiday, and for first of May. And there -- there was

holiday. So -- so those days they would come home. Otherwise, they were working

all the time.

Q: So he was taken away, and you never saw him, except for such holidays, and in

the summertime, and you, fr -- if I count, do you know the date you arrived in

Shilova? If it -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

A: To Shilova? I know in the book.

Q: It's in the book?

A2: I know.

Q: Okay. Well, when we interview you, then we will -- we will get that then.

A2: Okay.

Q: But I would say that it's probably if you were taken on February 10", you know,

and you spent some days until you cross the border from Poland into the Soviet

Union, probably sometime in -- at the end of the month, or the beginning of March

is when you arrived there. I'm just estimating. So your brother is taken, and you

don't see him at least until May first.

A: Right.

Q: Okay. And when he came --

A: Until he got sick.

Q: So what did he get sick from?

A: A nutri -- nutrition.

Q: A lack of nutrition.

A: Less of nutrition.

Q: What was his disease?

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A: First time was he couldn't see. He -- hi -- he lost the vision at night. So, they sent

him home, and he came with a raw liver. Because on Siberia we didn't see them

eat.

Q: Okay.

A: But when somebody is sick and couldn't work, then they found it. And -- and he

--he came with that, and my mother was chopping it and trying to make it -- no -- no

onion, no -- no spices. Maybe she had some little salt or something. So -- so she

would prepare that for him, and -- and he had to eat. And my sister knows what the

-- what -- how it tastes because she had -- she had the problem in her life.

Q: Okay. Now, in -- what did the rest of you do?

A: Before my si-- my brother and that one date before, when he headed home, he

showed me how to cut the trees -- tree down.

Q: Okay.

A: And which tree to cut. Which tree is dry, dead. So I went with him, and -- and I

helped him to cut. And when we cut it down, he showed us how -- how to cut into

pieces.

Q: Okay.

A: And how to put on a sled. Oh, one thing --

Q: Okay.

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January 28, 2015

A: -- or more things that they gave us to take from home, our sled that we were

playing with.

Q: So you could bring a sled?

A: So we could bring the sled, just was -- it wasn't big. It was probably that big. It

was ours to -- for down -- downhill.

Q: Okay.

A: And that thing came -- came in so handy, because we took that sled, and we went

to -- to the -- where the bog is, but in the wintertime it's frozen. And there are the

trees that are dead. So we cut those trees, one by one, and were carrying home. So

my brother helped me to prepare that foo -- that wood, and -- and we -- and I learned

how to do it.

Q: Okay.

A: So then, next day, my sister, I took her with me, okay, we are going. Because to

cut the tree, we had one -- one long saw that you have to pull on each side, so -- so

she was on one side, I was on the other. We cut it, and then I did everything what

my brother taught me, and we started wa -- bringing the f-- the wood.

Q: So you would at least have heat for the house.

A: Heat and -- and cooking.

Q: And what about the other family, did they do the same thing?

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January 28, 2015

A: Lalways think, you know, they used our wood. Because there was two boys, and

one boy was my brother's --

Q: Age.

A: -- age, so he went to work in a forest.

Q: Okay.

A: But the other one stayed here.

Q: Okay.

A: And -- and they -- I don't remember i -- them bringing any -- any wood.

Q: Did they contribute in any way?

A: I--I don't remember.

Q: Okay. Okay.

A: I don't remember. Eventually they -- they moved to another room, but -- but that

was probably a year later.

Q: So what did -- did your mother stay in the room with your baby brother, or did

she have to work as well? Did she get --

A: No, my mother was getting release from work.

Q: Okay.

A: Relief because one of -- this baby, and the other one, she had something wrong.

When she was walking, she was holding her here.

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January 28, 2015

Q: Her side.

A: So she apparently had something, either intestines, or --

Q: She was not well.

A: She was not well, and each time -- and -- and also, she was getting migraine. I am

blessed with them.

Q: Oh, oh.

A: Today -- today I had to take pills.

Q: Oh, what a pity, what a pity.

A: That's okay, I forgive my mom.

Q: Oh. So she was not well, and you and your sister would go and get the wood.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: Did you have any other duties that you had to do?

A: Eventually we went to school.

Q: Okay.

A: Pll-- but when we went to school, it was morning hours. And then in afternoon,

we got the job. We could work and make some money. So it was a

[indecipherable] which, cubic meters.

Q: A cubic meter, yeah.

A: Cubic meter, and we had to cut the wood a certain am -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

Q: Length.

A: -- length, and make it until it reaches the -- the requirement.

Q: Okay.

A: And then we got something like maybe one ruble, or something for it.

Q: Okay.

A: I know it wasn't much, but it was helping my brother.

Q: Yeah.

A: Because whatever he was giving us was enough only to buy bread. So -- so but

we sa -- somehow we survived.

Q: Were you selling some of the items from the trunk?

A: Yes. We -- we were going to Russian people, those that were previously

deported. And the village was on the other side of the lake.

Q: Okay.

A: In the wintertime the lake froze, so we could get there. But no boats or anything

that could take us across.

Q: Okay.

A: Some -- some of the women from the other side sometimes would come here.

And I remember my mom had a sweater, like a-- a wool for knitting. And she didn't The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

know how to knit, and I didn't learn because I didn't want to learn, because the

village people were -- were doing that. So I--

Q: Oh really?

A: -- oh, this -- I-- I had s-some kind of stupid pride. And so -- so when my mother

was selling that, she says, see, you could have make a nice sweater for yourself, and

now you don't know how.

Q: Yeah.

A: And would you believe, I -- I took the needles [indecipherable] and I -- and I

knew it.

Q: You learned how?

A: The only -- by myself this time. Because that women that was teaching me,

apparently she showed me enough that I memorized. I wasn't that stupid, like now.

Q: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Very good, very good. So that you -- you sold the

sweater to --

A: To the --

Q: -- to the villagers over in the --

A: Yeah. And they gave you more when it was ne -- new. So -- but it wasn't that

much, you know, that wasn't -- I don't know, maybe two sweaters or something.

But things like that, you know, and they gave us a lot of those, in the -- in the trunk, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

you know, the -- those things, pillowcases and -- and so -- so all that, you know,

helped us. Except at the end we already at the end of our stay there, it wasn't

enough to do exchanging or -- because we -- we would ask for the bread, gave us

loaf, you know. Okay, I will give you -- give you this. I mean, it's -- it's that kind of,

you know, business.

Q: That kind of bartering.

A: Bartering, yeah.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: So -- so we -- we did that, you know, and -- and -- and then in the summertime, we

did have berries.

Q: Okay.

A: Especially cranberries. The only problem was, you had to go into a bog.

Q: A bog, oh.

A: And -- and -- and there was ice yet floating on top, so the water was --

Q: Cold.

A: -- cold. And I'm ---I am -- I started getting some kind of sores on my legs. So

apparently from cold --

Q: Yeah.

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January 28, 2015

A: -- cold water. But -- but we went couple times with Irka(ph) to -- to pick, and we

were selling, and --

Q: The cranberries?

A: -- cranberries, yeah. And also, we could -- they -- they provided for us, a barrel. In

that barrel you could preserve those blueberry -- n-no, cranberries. And -- and they

would provide some food, and of course vitamins. So -- so we saved for us, and then

selled what -- sold what was too much for us. And -- and then get couple, and some

--and for that extra money, we would ma-make -- buy soup. Because they were

providing fish soup. They called it uha(ph).

Q: Uha(ph).

A: So, the [indecipherable].

Q: How is -- how is your brother doing, your little brother?

A: He didn't last too long.

Q: What happened?

A: There was no -- no food for baby. My mom would -- would -- 1-- I remember was

chewing that bread, and -- and giving them chewed up, you know, it's -- she would

never do that, but that's the on-only way the baby could -- because he was --

Q: Digest it, yeah.

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January 28, 2015

A: Yeah, he wasn't even a year old. So, at -- he was getting sick all the time. She

didn't have any -- she was so -- so slim. She was a nice -- probably your -- your size

person, and then when -- when it came, probably like Easter, first Easter, he already

was getting sick and -- and diarrhea, and -- and things like that, you know, and -- and

not -- not too -- too long, he was already with bloody discharge from his rectum. So

-- so that -- that was already beginning of the illness that he died of. And he died on

July -- I don't know, fourth or -- or second. Something in beginning of July.

Q: 1940.

A: 1940.

Q: So, he last --

A: Forty -- wait a minute, "40, yeah.

Q: 1940. So he lasted maybe five months. February, March --

A: Oh, wait a minute.

Q: -- April, May --

A: No, no, no, that was --

Q: -- June.

A: -- another year.

Q: Huh.

A: Oh wait a minute. I'm -- I'm --I'm already mixed up.

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January 28, 2015

Q: Okay, you --

A: Well, I know he was year old.

Q: He was at least a year old.

A: Yeah, on July, okay --

Q: So then --

A: Yeah, yeah, I'm okay. That's --

Q: Yeah --

A: -- that's --

Q: -- so it was right --

A: -- that was --

Q: -- he lasted five months.

A: -- yeah.

Q: Five months --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- of captivity.

A: Yes.

Q: And then he died.

A: And in eight -- eight or -- or seven years -- seven months of --

Q: Of normal life.

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January 28, 2015

A:--a normal life, yeah.

Q: Yeah. So, early July is when he dies, and --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- do you remember that moment?

A: Oh, do I. [erying] He was a -- like our ba -- doll. We played with him, we did ev-

everything with him. My mom didn't have to do not -- not much. We both, Irka(ph)

and I, we took care of him. She did only change the diapers or something like that,

but otherwise, we were --

Q: You were taking care.

A: It was our -- our baby.

Q: Was it in the daytime?

A: He was dying, and -- and people were so -- so helpful. Whoever had somebody

dying, you know, they would come and they would pray. They would try to -- to

help my mom, you know. And -- and they even make -- made a coffin for him, a

little white, you know, and -- but I --I couldn't -- I couldn't accept [indecipherable]

crying and praying God that he would live. I think it -- this -- that was the most

painful thing in my life because I couldn't understand what -- what is happening, I

couldn't understand why it's happening, you know, it --

Q: And he was so innocent, he's a baby. He's a baby.

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January 28, 2015

A: Yeah. All the babies in the camp died. Eight hundred people were there, and

only one survived.

Q: Only one baby?

A: But that pe -- pe -- person -- that family was privileged for some reason. I don't

want to talk about it, but -- but there were people that were trying to give some

others that maybe had some -- something wrong, or -- I --I -- I really don't know why

-- why that f-family was giving out some other people.

Q: You mean they were informing on other people?

A: Informing, yeah. And they -- and they -- every day they could get a glass of milk

for that baby. My mother -- of course we -- we saw, because the -- we have windows

and we see, you know, people wa -- people walking in front. And so when uri --

Jereczek was so much -- so sick, she would go to -- to that pryncidacin(ph) and ask

him. He was the only one that had a cow. He was -- he was in charge of the camp.

And so my mom went, and I remember she came with the glass of milk, gave -- and

gave him that, you know, what's glass of milk, you know, just -- but, better than

nothing. And -- and that was the last glass that he -- that he had.

Q: So it was --

A: The only glass.

Q: The only glass.

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January 28, 2015

A: But there was no meat, no -- no nothing. Bread and water. And our family didn't

-- didn't have money, and we just exchanged our clothes for -- for food, for bread,

for potatoes. Potatoes they had the lot. So-- so we could get. Once my mother said,

I will go, because she felt sorry for us, but I don't know how many time -- times

Irka(ph) went, but I went once with a couple lady friends, and they took me with,

and I exchanged fo-for -- for potatoes, so that was okay. I -- 1 took the sled with me,

and put the bag on it, bu -- and nothing happened. But when my mom went, for

some reason, they froze. Maybe she was resting too much, and maybe laying down

on -- on ice, or something. So --

Q: You know something, we'll break for a minute.

A: Okay.

Q: I'm going to make a phone call, and then we'll continue until lunchtime, okay?

A: Okay. [break]

Q: We're -- we're talking again.

A: Oh, oh, we're talking.

Q: We're talking again.

A: Uh-oh.

Q: Oh yeah. But we -- we -- before we cut and you know, cut the camera, we were

talking about a very -- very tragic event for you.

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January 28, 2015

A: For me that was very -- I never forget that. I still remember grave of Jereczek.

Q: Oh, really?

A: Irka(ph) and I, we made a fence around. Can you imagine, two little girls? We

dug f-- to put the --

Q: Coffin in?

A: -- posts --

Q: Okay.

A: --into. We figured out how to put the -- around the grave, and -- and we -- we

made -- put the grass on the -- and planted some wildflowers, because we tried to

plant -- our babcia that sent from Wolkowysk those flowers, seeds that she send us.

And they didn't want to grow. But we did plant and -- and found out that they don't

grow. But to us --

Q: Where did -- where was -- where was his grave in the compound?

A: There -- there was a -- a cemetery, because those Russian people, when they were

deported, they were dying out. So there were some graves, but those graves, some

of them had crosses, some of them already -- because it was 20 years, and the only

thing there was is a wooden cross.

Q: Did your brother have a wooden cross?

A: Yes.

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January 28, 2015

Q: Were you able to put his name on it?

A: It's the --

Q: Not really, huh?

A: I--I don't think we put the name. I don't think we thought about it. We just

decorated. The flowers, the -- the little wianki, you know, to hang up on a-- wianek

is -- how do you say wianek? From the flowers, you make the circ --

Q: A wreath?

A: A reef.

Q: A wreath.

A: A reef, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: Little reefs on it, you know. And -- or -- or put just bouquet o-of flowers on the

grave. We -- we a -- if not every day, then every second day we would go to his

grave. And the -- it was -- we kept that as a -- as our part of responsibility. And my

mo -- our mother, once in a while she would go, and she would praise us and say,

you know, that's -- that's the right thing to do, and -- and we --

Q: How was she doing? How was your mother doing after this -- after all this

happened?

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January 28, 2015

A: She -- she did good, and that's when she started getting those migraines. And sh

--and sometimes her migraine would last for two, three days. And she would -- one

day she says, cut -- cut my hair. And she had already long hair. And -- and she just

took scissors, and -- and he says, oh just cut there. And I didn't know how to cut,

you know, so I took -- I think she had made into a one -- one of those braids. A

braid, and -- and she just took that braid, cut here. And she didn't care, because she

Q: Because the weight of the hair was hurting her?

A: Yeah, that's what she thought, that the weight of the hair is causing her -- but,

you know, it didn't help. And she would -- tie a scarf on her head tight, do it tight,

you know, and oh she -- she suffered.

Q: She was suffering.

A: And with migraine, I know if I wouldn't take the pill, those that are helping --

one lady in Joole(ph) told me what to take, and -- and it's cheap, and -- and I can get

at Walmart. But oth-otherwise, I don't know what I would do, because doctors

always try something that they think it helps. Not everyone helps. But now -- now I

-- always take that aceen -- aceenominophen(ph).

Q: But you know, for a person who was in the situation that your mother was in,

and that other people were in, not everybody who got deported was in the best of The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

health, or their health got broken in different ways along the journey, or on the

journey, or in the place. And how do you take care of that, how do you recover, you

know, when there is -- when you're in such a -- you know, if someone gets sick, or if

someone has cancer, or someone -- you know.

A: Well, th -- over there, there was an -- nobody knew about cancer, period, and --

and -- and those were not old ladies. There were -- there were some pu -- people that

were deported with the -- grandmothers. And -- but those grandmothers were taken,

and they said, we're taking them to the place that when they -- where they get better,

and they apparently poisoned them, because no-nobody s-saw one of them. So all

those grandmothers were destroyed from this -- this earth.

Q: From your -- from the --

A: From the camp.

Q: From the camp.

A: From the camp. But lucky mi-- my mom was just 43, or some -- between 43 and

45. So she was a young person. So they apparently thought that their podoszok(ph),

which is a little -- a little bit of powder, that's the podoszok(ph). And that's what

they gave each time she -- she had to go to that pryncidacin(ph).

Q: Pretzidatto(ph). What does pretzidatto(ph) translate as?

A: This is manager.

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January 28, 2015

Q: Was this a person who was a military person?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: I don't know if he is military, but -- but probably that's -- in a way, he is.

Q: A government official, though?

A: I think so, because he was in -- in charge of us.

Q: You said 800 people were in this Shilova, yeah?

A: Tushilova(ph), yeah.

Q: Yeah. Tushilova(ph), or --

A: Tushilova(ph).

Q: Tushilova(ph), okay.

A: Yeah.

Q: And -- and that the adults were taken away that could work, to work in cutting

down trees.

A: Yes.

Q: Can you describe how that settlement looked? Was it in -- you mentioned that

there were bogs, were there forests, too?

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January 28, 2015

A: Forests all around. And only some places became bogs, and those bogs then

destroyed that -- the trees. So those are the ones that I and Irka(ph) were -- we were

looking for --

Q: What about --

A: --to cut down, because they were lighter to begin with.

Q: Right.

A: And -- and ready to be put into fire.

Q: What -- what did the -- how many buildings were there to house these 800

people?

A: Ah, I don't remember exactly, but probably eight. And each building -- the one

that we were, were eight of those rooms --

Q: Okay.

A: -- for some families -- there were some families like eight people in one, so they

got the ha -- one room. But since our was only five, and a baby, so apparently they

didn't count, or they didn't think that he will live. And us stayed with two families

in one.

Q: So it would be like eight large buildings and maybe eight to 10 rooms per

building, and about 10 people per room, something like that.

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A: Something like that, and -- and some more, because -- because they were a large

family.

Q: And you said one family got special treatment because they informed on others.

A: Mm-hm, yeah.

Q: So what kind of things could they inform on?

A: People would, after work would meet and talk, you know, what would be, what

-- for instance we -- we were sitting at the table, and -- and that was making -- I don't

remember exactly, but that -- whatever we were using, we would put finger on it,

and that thing would be energized, and go from -- and we would ask, and -- and it

would spell wha --

Q: Like a Ouija board.

A: Ouija board. And -- and you know, that kept us going, because we believed that

that thing tells us the -- the truth.

Q: I see. So they would report on these kinds of activities.

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: And -- or, we would -- on Sundays, we would get together into one room and

pray.

Q: Was there a priest in -- amongst the 800?

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A: Not -- not in our -- not that we knew.

Q: Okay.

A: Not in our camp. I'm -- I know there were --

Q: Okay.

A: -- but not in our camp.

Q: And you said that every baby that came to that camp died, except one. Were

there other people who were dying in the camp?

A: Yes, yes. Oh, I have to tell you that one. My brother worked in the summer.

Whatever tree, or -- or those woods they were cutting, now, when the lake --

Q: Wasn't frozen.

A:-- wasn't frozen, then they took that -- that circle, because they were throwing

into water -- and -- and into -- inside of the circle, and were -- with a special -- I have

it in my book.

Q: Was it a special instrument of some kind?

A: Special thing, primitive, but they made it, and then they could pull, they -- on --

on the shore. They could turn that. And that was moving the -- the wood towards the

opening in the lake where the river starts. In -- and then they, on a river, they wa --

they go on a shore walk. And -- and they watch where there is like a turn, and at the

turn, and the -- the wood gets stuck.

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Q: So they would try and guide the logs from the water --

A: To -- right.

Q: -- from the lake to the river.

A: -- to the oma -- to the Onega river, because this one's smaller, Kosh(ph) river,

and that I remember. And -- and to the ome -- Onega --

Q: Omega?

A: Onega, Onega.

Q: Onega.

A: Onega river.

Q: Onega river, okay.

A: And then -- and then they let it go, wherever -- wherever some -- something else

takes over. So my brother and in a group of those men, was -- and there was another

young boy. I'm sure there was couple -- couple of them. That one was fourth grade

high school, and my brother was only second grade. So --

Q: Second year of high school.

A: Second year of high school. So--so my -- my brother was in a boat with the

young men -- young boys. And -- and my -- and his friend was sitting on the same

bench, but he's on this side, and -- and -- and Urich(ph) on the other side. So when --

when they came to the [indecipherable] waterfall, then they -- the Russian, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

whoever was in charge of that group, said that they have to go down on the

waterfall.

Q: They have to go down the waterfall.

A: On the waterfall, with the boats. So the old man, I guess more knowing how to --

how -- how to operate that, you know, water and the -- and the boat. So they went

down, and they were okay. But then comes that -- this young boys" boat, and it went

straight into water and filled up with water, and they got up out of the water. But in

the middle of the Stasek(ph), my bro-brother was on the right side towards the

shore. And th -- and the people that was on the shore threw the rope to him, pulled

him out. Urich(ph) jumped towards the middle, and the middle, there was --

Q: A current?

A: --rocks. And he stood on that, and that was the s -- the last thing that people

heard from him. And -- and the father was watching.

Q: Oh my. Oh my.

A: And then the father was looking for him for whole week until they found his

body. And -- and the mother was -- oh, you could hear all over, her crying.

Q: All over the camp.

A: She was crying so -- every day, every day. That's the worst thing, I think.

Q: Yeah. Yeah. How long did you stay in this camp?

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A: Until --I was looking, but I forgot already. Oh, til -- til January 17" of deg42.

Q: Of deg42?

A: Yes.

Q: So that meant you were there almost two years.

A: Right.

Q: And how -- how did you find out -- what happened that you could leave? What

happened that -- that things changed?

A: I think -- I think men always find something faster than -- than we did.

Q: Okay.

A: They -- they were already allowed to go not -- not to work. So they came to the

camp [indecipherable]

Q: There were some men who came to the camp?

A: All those husbands and -- and wives, even wives were there [indecipherable]

also were there, working.

Q: You mean who were logging, who were cutting branches? Okay.

A: Who were logging, yes, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: So they -- they came to -- to the camp, and they already knew that Polish army is

being organized and where, all this.

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Q: And --

A: So they were informed.

Q: And --

A: I guess Russians were informing these Polish people that they can go, and they

are free. That we are free.

Q: And -- and about when did the -- did this news come by?

A: I--e--in November. But it was August -- August, I think, of -- of "42.

Q: Forty-one.

A: Forty-two.

Q: You said --

A: Or 41?

Q: -- you left in-- in January deg42.

A: Forty-two, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: Oh, that's right, so deg41. And -- and my -- my brother came and -- and they

couldn't work any more.

Q: Okay.

A: So -- or were not allowed, or something like that. So-- so my -- my brother and --

and there was a nice gentleman that he organized that group. I think I-- in book The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

everything is right, not here. So -- so they -- they did get as a group, and decided to --

to leave. I think it was 11deg of November, and it's a -- I think -- I don't know.

Q: Your brother was part of this group?

A: Mm-hm.

Q: So he left you and -- he left with the group.

A: And -- and -- and my mom gave him a lot of -- not a lot, whatever he had -- she

had, money, whatever she saved. And -- and -- and -- and my brother says, no, no,

no, I am not gonna take. But then he's already on the lake, and she says go and give

him -- you have to give him, I cannot keep this. We will sell -- sell some -- some of

the clothes. So -- so I ran after him, I catch him, and -- and I say -- say to him,

Mamusha said you -- you have to have it. And he says no. So he was as stubborn as

my sister, and he didn't take it.

Q: He didn't take it.

A: So--so I--I brought on that, I -- but I swa -- I think it was like 70 or something.

So -- so then -- then we sta -- started saving money for our trip.

Q: Okay.

A: Because in order for us to leave, we as a family of a soldier, we were allowed to

leave the Siberia. If we didn't have nobody, we wouldn't.

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Q: So does that mean because your brother was a soldier, or because your father had

been a soldier?

A: And the father also.

Q: Did you know where your father was at this point?

A: I-- we received one -- I was looking here at that postcard from my father --

Q: Okay.

A: --in Russian. I don't think my father was writing, only his signature was there.

Q: Okay.

A: But he said wherever -- wherever you are, try to go in the direction of -- again, a

place where -- where the Polish army is organized.

Q: Okay.

A: So --so that -- that was our destination, and th --

Q: And did your f-- excuse me for interrupting -- was your father also released?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: But father was with awful, awful, awful condition. And got four --I think four

rubles for two years of -- of gulag.

Q: Wow. Wow.

A: Big rewa -- big reward.

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January 28, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: But he wa --

Q: Did he eventually leave the Soviet Union?

A: Yes.

Q: In 1940 --

A: He joined. In the book look for -- for -- I-- I have two pictures. One that he's just

joined, and then when he is already in better shape.

Q: Ba -- okay, but he was able to leave the Soviet Union during these -- these

months --

A: With the Polish -- with the Polish --

Q: With the Polish --

A: -- army.

Q: Okay.

A: And they hi-- they didn't want him to be served in the army when he was

younger, but this time they --

Q: They took him.

A: -- they took him and -- and -- and were very happy, and he was very happy. He

was driving a truck or something there, you know, delivering, you know, ammuni --

ammunition during the war, and he -- he did -- did his good -- good job.

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Q: Service, yeah.

A: Yeah, good service.

Q: So -- but di -- you didn't meet up, you didn't see him at this --

A: I-- we didn't see him until -- in a -- in United States in "43.

Q: Fifty-three.

A: Fifty-three, that's right.

Q: Fifty-three, yeah.

A: Thanks.

Q: I see. All right. So you -- you'd know -- your father is in a gulag, he is released,

he is in bad condition, but he gets his way south. He joins the army, he leaves, and

he ends up serving as a -- as a truck driver delivering ammunition. Meanwhile, your

younger -- your older brother goes, and it's the three -- three women who are left:

your mother and yourself and your sister.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: And you start planning to leave.

A: Yeah.

Q: And preparing to leave.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. So your preparations involved earning more money, was that it?

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January 28, 2015

A: Ner -- well, we had to go to -- across the lake to exchange. And this time, of

course, we wanted m-money.

Q: Yeah.

A: Because we needed money, we have to pay for -- for the sled to take our trunk

and us and whatever. And it wasn't so easy this time, because they had enough.

People sold or exchange so much, you know, that --

Q: They didn't need any more things.

A: -- they didn't need. So I think we -- we couldn't do much, and my mother just had

enough to pay for our trip to the station.

Q: The railway station.

A: Railway station. And -- and she says, on the way we'll be trying to sell. So in

those villages that we had to stop, then she -- every time we stopped in the evening,

she would go and -- and start selling. And she sold enough to -- for us to pay for our

train tickets, and some for food.

Q: Okay.

A: That -- so it wasn't. But she was selling everything the best. Nobody wanted to

buy her suits, because she had some suits for sale. But that she -- who wears, you

know, skirt and -- and -- and beautiful jacket, you know, in Siberia?

Q: Yeah.

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January 28, 2015

A: So --so she -- one -- one time she was in a house of a-- a woman, and sh -- and

she was taking care of her granddaughter. And that grotter -- that grandda-daughter

saw my mother wearing nice hat, knit hat, you know, and -- and -- and Mama -- no,

Grandma, I want that, I want that. And -- and -- and -- an-and Grandma was afraid to

-- to ask. But -- but finally that one so -- trying so hard. And my mom says, I can sell

that. So--so my mother gave her that hat. And she gave my mom a loaf of bread,

hundred rubles. And yet she gave -- she told my mom, come tomorrow morning, I'Il

give you another loaf of bread.

Q: Wow.

A: So---so that was such a --

Q: A huge thing.

A: -- huge thing. And -- and small knit hat, you know, but -- but to -- to that little -- of

course grandma always buys everything for --

Q: Grandchildren, yeah.

A: But she didn't have to give so much --

Q: Money.

A:--money, yeah. So -- so she -- she was lucky.

Q: And that helped you.

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A: And that -- that was another addition, and so we gradually had enough money to

go. And -- and she had on -- on herself another 300 rubles. Oh, I didn't tell you

about my uncle from Moscow.

Q: Oh yes, tell us, because you mentioned in the beginning that he had been helpful

to you.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: Okay.

A: So --so he -- with -- we'll regress. It was a few days before -- [doorbell rings]

Q: Okay, hang on. [break]

A: He asks me -- I was corresponding with him after we came, and he asked me

after I published my -- my book, he asked me to send him a couple books, and -- and

he was the one, he was working at -- what is the name of it? Where y -- what you

may -- what you work now?

Q: At the Holocaust Museum?

A: Holocaust Museum.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: So -- so --and I don't remember his ma -- name, because it was five years ago.

Q: Oh, okay. And you met him in Italy, in Monte Cassino?

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A: Ye -- well, we -- we took a trip from Chicago to -- but I don't know if that was a

group only from Chicago, it's possibly, that we didn't get anybody else. But -- oh

no, he wa -- he lived by the Washington, D.C.

Q: I see.

A: By the -- yeah, by the Washington, D.C. Because he'II -- he lived there, and he --

he volunteered there.

Q: I see.

A: So he was there. He was so nice gentleman. Took me to -- in Viedin(ph), to the

opera. I was -- when we were talking, and I said oh, I wish I could go to the opera,

because we were -- on our tour we were visiting Vienna, and then cemeteries where

a la -- about thousand -- more than thousand Polish soldiers were buried. So we were

going, you know, from one place to the other, and then we came friends, you know,

so -- So --

Q: And you don't remember the gentleman's name?

A: No, I don't remember his name. Five years only. And remember -- remember si --

how many, 70 what? Seventy-five siver -- from Siberia.

A2: Rozhanski(ph)?

A: No, no, no, that was a Jew.

A2: Oh, oh, oh, oh.

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A: A Jewish --

Q: Person.

A: A Jewish person.

Q: You're telling me now about a Jewish person you met --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- when you were at Monte Cassino at the 75" anniversary --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- to commemorate, y-you know, the soldiers --

A: My brother.

Q: -- who had fallen, for you was your brother.

A: Right, and my brother.

Q: Yeah.

A: And I thought he wasn't there, so I-- so I want to go instead of him, for him.

Q: Yeah, for him.

A: And that -- tha -- and I don't remember --

Q: Well, that's a nice experience.

A: Yeah. I don't remem -- he -- at th -- each cemetery he would go only to the corner

where the Jewish soldiers were buried. So -- so he would go there, and I would go to

-- to look at the Polish -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

Q: Polish.

A: -- soldiers. And I don't know if th -- anybody was -- probably in -- in Monte

Cassino were my brother's friends --

Q: Could be.

A: -- buried.

Q: Could be

A: But my brother was injured.

Q: At Monte Cassino.

A: At Monte. He says his best time was there, because they didn't have the -- how

do you c-call wismayrjits(ph) for the pain.

Q: They didn't have painkillers?

A: Yes, th-they gave him bottle of whisky.

Q: Oh.

A: He says once he [indecipherable]

Q: No pain, huh?

A: He did not need that, I think.

Q: Okay. Well, before the break, we were talking about -- we were talking about

how you and your mother needed money, and your si -- the three of you: you, your The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

sister, your mother, needed money in order to leave the camp, and how she was able

to gather some money together by selling some things --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- including the knit hat.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: And then we stopped at the point where you said your uncle and wa -- in

Moscow was also of great help --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- at this time. So explain to me in what way he was helping you and your mother

and your sister.

A: Okay. Shortly before we left Siberia, my - my mom was wondering how can we

get the money. And -- and I don't know if she has written to -- to my aunt in -- my --

no, babcia.

Q: Your aunt -- yeah.

A: Ma-- my mom's aunt in Wolkowysk, or -- or not, but I know that that was the

aunt of also uncle -- I don't know if I call -- told you right name. He was Joseph.

Q: I don't remember.

A: But --

Q: I don't remember, but you did mention -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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A: The one in Moscow, his name was Joseph.

Q: -- the one who -- who had -- the one who was inducted in the tsar's army --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- and could not leave the Soviet Union --

A: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

Q: -- after the Bolshevik revolution.

A: Yes, that's the one.

Q: So he was in Moscow, mm-hm.

A: Yeah, so -- so he apparent -- she apparently, the aunt wrote to him and told him

that we're in need of money. So my mom sent us to the post office. We -- we had to

go, I don't know, maybe eight kilometers to -- to the main aw -- post office, to pick

up the letter. And we got the letter and we come home and -- and -- and I look at

this, and this is from Uncle Joseph from Moscow. So -- so -- and of course when

Mama opened this and -- and si -- found 300 rubles, that was all that we needed.

Q: Oh my. So that helped, that helped.

A: So that yes, that helped us. Hundred -- hundred thou -- thou -- rubles for each

person --

Q: Okay.

A: -- on the -- on the train. But not on -- on the sled.

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Q: So she still had to pay for that.

A: For that she paid, a-and -- and only she could ride, and we two, we were

supposed to walk. And we said Mama we -- don't worry, we will walk, we will

walk, and -- because she was worried that -- and doesn't have enough to pay. Well,

first -- first distance was from our camp to Polwina(ph) which was part of -- half to

-- to the next village, an-and that's why the name Polwina(ph), halfway. So -- so

Irka(ph) and I, we were walking. And Irka(ph) --

Q: And you -- and you were walking because there wasn't enough money to pay for

you to ride in the sleigh?

A: Right.

Q: I see. Okay.

A: See, at that point my mom didn't sell her hat, an-and the -- and other s -- other

beautiful things that I remember seeing and admiring it, you know. But at that point

we -- we had only that much how to pay. And she, of course, she would never make

it.

Q: Yeah.

A: The -- the way sh -- when she was walking [indecipherable] sometimes, and not

always. When she felt little better. So -- so at that time, we walked, and when we got

to the end, I think Irka(ph) was so -- i-in such a pain -- she is a very tough little The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

child when she was little, and now too. She -- what she has, I --I think I would be

dead long time ago.

Q: Okay.

A: Exercises, and all. But -- so -- so then -- and then, at -- at -- in that village when we

arrived, my mother says, I have to somehow bribe the -- the --

Q: Driver?

A: -- driver, because Irka(ph) cannot go back to -- to walk. So -- so she took my

prettiest skirt that I liked so much, you know, with those pleats all around, and I

never forgot. Forgave her, but -- but f-- didn't forget. And at that time my -- of

course, I -- I didn't -- she didn't ask me, and I would always allow. But Irka(ph) all

the way, hardly ke -- could walk. And -- but I walked all the way. My -- my le -- feet

would -- would be --

Q: Took you the whole way.

A: -- okay.

Q: And so what kind of a distance are we talking about?

A: Hundred twenty kilometers to the station.

Q: So that's a good -- almost a hundred miles.

A: Kilometers

Q: I know, 120 kilometers -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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A: Mm-hm, it's a hundred miles.

Q: Hundred miles.

A: -- yeah. So -- so --

Q: That's huge.

A: --I did. I did. And I guess my legs are okay, because I don't even have big veins.

Irka(ph) has u -- they -- her veins are like my finger.

Q: Wow.

A: You can see that.

Q: So-

A: So --so that was --

Q: And -- and then you were able to buy tickets on the train?

A: Yes. Yes, because my mom sold that hat, and -- and some -- and that was shawl

that she -- and that I admired, I always looked at it and then, you know, girls --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- like some pretty things. So -- so it was -- it was really good preparation. And

then -- then as we -- as we were driving by the open -- this boxcar, then was open

there, and -- and one of the gentleman from the -- from the camp was there. And --

and he says, come on into our -- they still needed some more people.

Q: So you had -- you had an open boxcar now?

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A: Yeah.

Q: No -- not a--

A: Yeah, now -- now we are free. So it -- so it was a -- a open thing, and waiting for

us. We could close the door when we wanted, we could do anything that we wanted.

Q: So -- but it was the same set-up as before, with the planks.

A: Right.

Q: Okay.

A: But only two.

Q: Only two.

A: Only two, so -- so it was more -- more room for us, and -- an-and we went -- we

went in the top. And on the top, that man, he was helping us a lot.

Q: Okay.

A: As we were going, I will tell you -- will we finish until I get to Mexico?

Q: Yes. Oh, we can talk about it now if you want to, or was -- he was helping you in

Mexico?

A: Oh, no, no, this is not in Mexico. This is when we were going south --

Q: Yes.

A: -- already without my mom.

Q: Oh, he helps you there?

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A: We -- we left -- on the first station, Irka(ph) and I were looking for Mom. We

were running at the station on one side.

Q: Okay, no then -- no, let's get a little --

A: Back up?

Q: Yeah.

A: Okay.

Q: Because otherwise I -- I might not understand.

A: Okay.

Q: So you're in this boxcar, and there's a gentleman there from your camp, who

sees you and says come on in, and he helps you.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: And you get the top platform, the top bunk where it's a little bit more air.

A: Mm, okay.

Q: And you're proceeding south.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: And then what happens?

A: And then at one -- at one of the s-stations, one person catches a dog.

Q: Okay.

A: And -- and they murder the dog, and -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

Q: Food.

A: -- cook -- cook and smelling this -- it's the worst -- worst meat if you want to cook

the dog. Well, anyway -- and when the -- one skin, when they too -- pulled off the

skin from him, they wanted to throw away. And the woman that had two little girls,

they look more like twins or anything, and -- and -- and she was kind of not too -- too

able to provide --

Q: Food.

A: -- or save for them, because they were overpowering her or something, that she --

she didn't have nothing. My mom would have at least a spoon of something, and

then she would divide that spoon among us. Usually not herself, she wouldn't

include. So -- so she -- that woman takes that skin, burns the hair -- you can imagine

burning hair in a-- in a--

Q: Cattle car, yeah.

A: -- traveling --

Q: Right.

A: -- train. And -- and then she cooked that. And she cooked that skin for probably

hours. And there was a stink and -- and whatever. You know, it's -- it was just

unbearable, but -- but poor children were hungry and that's all she could provide.

Possibly she was with my mom, you know, to go to buy that food, and the train left The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

and she didn't go because they were saying, and she listened. And our mom said no,

I cannot feed you, I-- I have to go. So-- so --

Q: Oh, so you stopped at a train stop. You stopped at a railway station.

A: Yes, following.

Q: Mm-hm. Following after this incident.

A: Yes. And then -- and then we g -- jumped out, opened the door because we were

in charge of doors and everything. So -- so we opened the door and started running

at the station and calling, Mamushu(ph), Mamushu(ph). But Mamushi(ph) was

not on one side, so -- so we went for the other side. And on the other side we did the

same and -- and -- and then we see the train, the wheels are moving. And I said to

Irka(ph), let's -- let's go on the other side. And I'm telling you that I think God was

protected us because the train was already moving and we managed to go on the

other side.

Q: You mean by the other side, you've managed to get into the car from the other

side?

A: The -- only from that side the door was.

Q: Okay.

A: So -- so w-we -- we climbed underneath and started running towards the front,

because we went til -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

Q: Oh, I see.

A: -- til now to the back. So we were running, and -- and here is the door opened,

and -- and Mr. whatever stands in the door and come on, give me hand, give me

hand. And -- and he pulls us what -- with arm, one arm and -- and the -- I guess he

was pulling so fast that -- that -- and we were light, we were still hungry and -- and --

and -- and skinny. So -- so he pulled us in. And he f--

Q: And do you remember the train station, what the name of it was?

A: Maybe in the book.

Q: Okay.

A: Because I -- I don't remember, at this point.

Q: Was this very far into the journey, close to the beginning --

A: Oh yes, yes.

Q: -- or close to the end?

A: That was whole day, as we started at -- at noon --

Q: Okay.

A: -- the train was speeding.

Q: Okay.

A: Speeding and speeding and speeding. And just stopped at the pi -- or stopped or

didn't stop, or just whistled woo-oo0 and go and go and go, until we passed, I think The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

Ural mountains. So, from Vologda to -- to the Ural mountains, and then -- and then

he stops. Apparently he tried as fast and as farthest to get because Germans are --

airplanes are flying. And if they saw the -- I think that during the day they could go.

At night, train -- the airplanes would -- would be bombar -- bombarding the train. So

anyway -- so we -- we are at the -- at the train, and -- and -- and another day, but -- but

was stopping more often. So whatever station we would -- we would come out and

call Mamo, Mamo, Mama, you know, and -- and -- and nobody -- nobody --

Q: So you had been on the train for one whole day when it stopped at a station, your

mother left to buy food, and didn't return before the train left. In other words, it -- it

left without her.

A: Right.

Q: And so -- and then, at each subsequent station, when the train would stop, you

would go out and you would shout.

A: We would go out, yeah.

Q: Okay. Okay.

A: And then -- and then we -- the whole -- whole day and night, and -- and -- kept on

going, we were going for a certain time that I don't remember. And finally we got

to the southern state, but now it's a different country, Kirghizia.

Q: Ah, Kyrgyzstan.

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January 28, 2015

A: Kyrgyzstan. And they're separate now. So -- and there was, in Jalabad(ph), was

Polish army already. Whatever they are -- they are -- were, you know, part of them,

you know, and -- and they gave us good food, and -- an-and we were, you know --

but no Mama.

Q: So how long did -- yeah, how long did the trip from Vologda to Jalabad(ph)

last?

A: Probably about three -- three weeks, or something like that.

Q: And you lost your mother on the first day?

A: No, week. We were traveling from the first station to Vologda for a week.

Q: Okay.

A: Over there we were traveling only during the day, and at night would be standing

in a secluded area.

Q: The train.

A: The train. So the -- the --

Q: Okay.

A: -- the airplanes wouldn't see. And then in Vologda, we were stand -- staying for

whole week.

Q: Oh, so two weeks from -- so it was --

A: Two weeks, yes.

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Q: Okay.

A: So -- so there, every day, they would be telling us, we will leave today. We will

leave today and -- and -- and we started going, and whatever. So for a whole week

my mom was always living with that nervous, oh, I'm going for bread, or -- or -- or

my daughter is going for -- because which she would send Irka(ph) and me, and

whatever -- whichever felt little better. So -- so we -- we were constantly separated,

and -- and she was nervous about losing us. And then -- then finally her system

couldn't hold it, and -- and she says, we -- we don't have nothing to eat, so -- so she

is going. And she didn't even listen to us, what we -- now, of course, which mother

listens to a child? So -- so anyway, after -- wait, what did I want to say?

Q: In Vologda --

A: Okay.

Q: -- you had to wait a week.

A: Yes.

Q: But you were already on the boxcar.

A: Oh we -- we were in the same boxcar that we paid in -- in -- in the first station.

Q: And the fir -- what was the name of the first station?

A: Tha-That's the problem.

Q: You don't remember.

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January 28, 2015

A: In my book.

Q: It's okay. Okay. And it was -- but then you traveled for a full day, and then at one

station your mother goes out to get the bread, and the train starts to move.

A: Yeah. And at -- that day an -- day, because each day they were saying that we

will leave, we will leave, you know, at noon, or in the evening, and this. And then,

at that day, they se -- they were saying the same thing. And a-- I don't know,

Irka(ph) or -- or I was -- I think Irka(ph) probably, was for the bread. And she come

back. Maybe she ti -- she" I tell you --

Q: Okay, yeah.

A: -- straighten me out. And -- and whoever was there, came back.

Q: Okay.

A: So -- so then my mom decided she will go. And -- and she did go. And we were

crying, we were asking her and didn't work. So --

Q: And you never saw her again.

A: And -- and it was like 12 o'clock -- five -- five minutes after t -- after -- after 12

o'clock, the train starts moving. And then you can imagine both of us just couldn't

--couldn't -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

Q: It wa -- and it's -- it's what one has heard before, that very often the trains would

stop, and one of the family members would get out to get something, and then

they'd be left behind.

A: Yeah. But some of them catch up, and some don't have luck. They couldn't find

out -- see, that was war, you know. They probably left when there was something --

they got probably clear from -- from somebody. So -- so that was not a pr -- on

purpose for leave those, or leave that, you know, it was just happened. And -- wait,

what else? Oh, and we were -- when we were going down, and probably the first

longer stop for us was at the place that was Polish -- Polish -- oh my gosh, I knew all

those names and ev -- whatever. Where -- Polish government small office was there.

And so I went to report that we lost our mother, that Mother stayed in Vologda, and

gave the names, mine -- Irka's(ph) and mine, and we never heard of that, you know,

that anybody reported anything, you know. So she didn't get that far.

Q: Did she have the money, or did you have any money?

A: She had the money. She had nice fur lined coat that was very warm. And -- and

she had our I.D., because without I.D. you couldn't get -- buy the bread. So -- so my

-- my suspicion is that -- oh, and another thing I have to tell you. Years later, when

we arrived in Mexico, in our or-orphanage were two little sisters of the boy that in

Vologda jumped out of that train, and to bring his father and -- and the rest of the The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

group back to the -- he -- he thought that he will make it, and they will be able to get

on the train. But it didn't happen. He stayed with the father, father died. And -- and

our mother was on a -- he said on a breck(ph). What is breck(ph)? I tried Russia --

Russian people, I tried Jewish people, I tried anybody I could imagine, if any knows

what is breck(ph)?

Q: Yeah, what is a breck(ph)?

A: The only thing I can imagine, it was a platform, maybe with some si-sides, or

maybe nothing. And -- and they were on that breck(ph) with whatever they had on,

and with the wind, when train was going so fast, they would never survive if they

were standing on. So all people, like flies were freezing and falling off. And -- and

somebody found my mother frozen, dead. And -- and she -- and -- and she had all

these clothes on, all her documents. She saw, on my mother's document there is two

little girls. She would get three portions of bread at the store, not one, and -- and she

was probably only one, and she threw her clothes off, or just -- just -- no, she

probably ki -- kept a -- a coat. And -- and -- and she took my mother's LD.

Q: So -- so you -- you -- you think this is what happened?

A: Right, because exactly everything the same, except -- except only thing, where is

she from? And she was from Saint Petersburg. So at that time people were running

away from the war.

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Q: Okay, so in other words, you find out later, in later years, that there's a woman

who --

A: In 1999, I think, because already my -- my book was published.

Q: Okay, so in 1999, you find out that there was somebody from Saint Petersburg

who had the same documents as your mother?

A: Right.

Q: Did you know this person's real name?

A: No, it didn't show, just that -- that she -- she traveled from Saint Petersburg.

Everything was the same except instead of from Arhanga(ph) Skyoblish(ph), or

from Brantowce, you know, that's the only thing that was different. And I wrote to

--to American because it was through American that I was getting that inform-

information. And -- and -- and she -- or -- or -- or Red Cross couldn't get that

information.

Q: So the only pieces of information you ever had about what happened to your

mother is from two sources: one, a boy who happened to have jumped off the same

train --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- to get his own father --

A: Mm-hm.

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Q: -- to the train.

A: Yeah, and he survived.

Q: [indecipherable] the boy survived, the father did not.

A: And -- and his sisters were in Mexico with me.

Q: Okay, and you met him in Mexico, and he said your mother had been on the

breck(ph), whatever that is.

A: Yeah.

Q: And then the second piece of information came in 1999, when from the Red

Cross and from the Russian Red Cross, you got some information that there was a

woman who had the same ID. as your mother, but that she comes from Saint

Petersburg, not fr--

A: Yeah, and in -- in the same time.

Q: At the same time, okay.

A: So --so this is --

Q: And otherwise you have no idea what happened?

A: No, no.

Q: And what you think happened, even though you don't have the information, is

that this is -- the person from Saint Petersburg found your mother frozen and took

her documents, and maybe some of her clothes.

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January 28, 2015

A: Yeah, right.

Q: So what happened to you on the train, you didn't have any documents, it was just

you and your sister.

A: That's --

Q: And how did you eat, who fed you, and how long did it take from that point

when you lost your mother, til you reached Jalabad(ph)?

A: Almost three weeks, I think. I have --

Q: I mean from the point you lose your mother --

A: -- Ihave dates in my books, so --

Q: Okay.

A:--so you c -- you can get that, and my sister probably --

Q: Okay.

A: -- has better -- better recording.

Q: Okay, so -- okay, the three weeks --

A: But --

Q: -- is -- is from the point you lose your mother, not from the point you left the

camp?

A: Three weeks. Yeah.

Q: Okay.

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A: Yeah. Okay, what -- what was the next question?

Q: The next question is how did you eat, who took care of you?

A: Oh, a couple -- couple men that were fluent in Russian and whatever, they wrote

-- they took piece of paper, they wrote similar format, our names, and we could --

we could buy -- or they could buy bread. On the train we had -- my mom left a little

change purse. And -- and that -- that's -- that has a long story, too, because all of a

sudden we are looking for that change purse, and there is none. But then, a couple

days later, apparently parents noticed that the little girl too-took the change purse

from us, and she told them, put it back where you find it. Which is normally is said

by p-parents. And she did. All of a sudden I pa -- I look, and at the top of that

container where it was, it's -- it still is. So-- so we had some -- I-I think I have also

how much I had, but so we used up that. And then when we went to that Polish

consulate, oh, I remembered, then they gave us 40 rubles.

Q: Okay.

A: So we had 40 rubles plus there was like in teens, I think, of the change. So -- so

that lasted until we got to the Jalabad(ph), to that -- that place, and -- and then

[indecipherable] about, after I think couple days, they fed us, an-and gave us good

care. And then they send us to collective farm. And over there we were supposed to

wait for something to happen.

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Q: Okay.

A: Orphanage or -- or something. So after -- after we got there, they just threw us out

at the station, at the end -- end of life -- li -- at the end of line. So -- so for two days

we stayed there, and we didn't know what happen -- will happen. Good thing we --

we had a good send out, you know, with a little food, but not enough for two days.

So -- so we -- we were eating, and there was a big mound of -- it's from maku(ph),

whatever the name that means. It's from the seeds of bawelna -- aye-aye-aye,

bawelna. That was -- [indecipherable] bawelna?

Q: Sunflower? No.

A: Y-You use for the -- feeding the cows.

Q: Corn?

A: No, no, th-they use something else in Kirghizia. Corn doesn't grow there, it's a

sandy, sandy place. Well, maybe it" ll -- it will come back. Pll -- I will continue.

Whatever that -- that was, we were -- we would -- i-it wasn't clean on top, so we

would clean up and eat that, and it was very bitter. But, you know, better than

nothing in your stomach. So -- so somehow we survived that. And then next day

comes Kirghizian man, with the big whatever -- didn't look like a wagon or -- or

anything. So we -- we just walked behind him, told -- tol -- showed us, only we

didn't understand at -- at all what he was saying. And took us to his collective farm.

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January 28, 2015

Q: So I want to understand. You go to a pol -- Polish authorities in Jalabad(ph).

A: Mm-hm.

Q: The Polish authorities say well, okay here, we feed you, we take care of you, but

go to this collective farm until we know what to do with you. Is that correct?

A: But they lost completely, because the army -- because the ar -- that was the army.

Q: Okay.

A: And -- and I guess they were not the -- concerned about us, they were concerned

more of those soldiers, because those soldiers came naked almost, you know, to join

the army, so -- so they --

Q: When you said they lost completely, they -- they completely forgot you, or they --

A: I think so, because nobody sh-showed up for us. Nobody ever knew wha -- which

place we are, because even that Kirghizian man, when he came he just asked us if

we can go with him, so we went, because we didn't have --

Q: Okay, but was this the place that you were supposed to go to?

A: I don't know, I don't know if that was anything like that. Whatever it was, we --

we ended up in that collective farm. And -- and th -- and they let us sleep in their

office, because we came very -- very late [indecipherable] by horse and -- or -- what

-- that wasn't horse, what did we use there? Some -- some other animal.

Q: Okay.

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January 28, 2015

A: Well, anyway -- anyway so -- so when we came it was almost midnight.

Q: Okay.

A: So we slept on floor in that, you know, cold and no -- no heat, no nothing. It was

March when we ca -- got -- March, we started in --

Q: January. January fifth, I think.

A: -- January 17". So that was more than three weeks. Yeah, because I remember it

was March.

Q: Okay.

A: Well, anyway, when we got -- got there, they gave us a little -- like a bagel thing,

and that's all, but that was enough for us, our stomachs were pos -- almost empty

anyway. So, until next day -- next day they came, and they took us to the -- they

called it lepianka. It was made of clay.

Q: So a place to live.

A: Place to live. It was just four walls, no floor, just sand. A opening for the stove,

just there. And no place even to put the -- the pot --

Q: Okay.

A: --if you had, you know atu -- anything to cook. But anyway, that was -- and to

sleep on the -- on the floor they told us, go in the field, pick up some -- oh, cotton,

and that was cotton seeds, the other, that mountain -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

Q: Oh, cotton seeds, okay.

A: -- cotton seeds. And very bitter, don't try to eat that. So-- so we picked those

cotton seeds, laid them on the -- on that sand. Then on it our -- one of the -- we had

still comforters. So one was to sleep, the other one was to cover. So we -- we were

okay with that. And of course, on the floor. And then -- and -- and with us came

another girl that was 14. I didn't know her before, but now -- now we're -- we're in

the same house, and she has two little boys, much younger than she is. So -- so -- so

we were okay as --

Q: Five.

A: -- we had fun and -- and whatever. So we were there for, I don't know, a week or

something, without working. Then they tell us that we have to go to work. And one

day when -- Irka(ph) [indecipherable] we cheated. But we had got only one of

those ro-round things that --

Q: Right, the rou -- the portion.

A: -- Irena's portion. But we -- we brought home, we shared it, and that was for

lunch, but we didn't have nothing for -- for dinner, so -- so we -- we brought home

and we -- we ate half and half of that. So-- so we were there until spring, until

started getting warmer. Next to that hut, there was a-- a --a big -- bi--a pretty big,

like a mountain. Miniature mountain. And -- and that mountain started moving, but The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

not mountain moving, on-only on the mountain snakes. There was so many, and

they were -- they were coming out, and then they would roll up, you know. And we

went to go somewhere, and here is one, here is one. So -- so we were jumping

through them, and -- and going to -- to the field to work, or -- or s -- or something.

Q: Did they bite?

A: No. But -- unless you step on them. And you know, bu -- jumping over them was

dangerous, but we didn't think about it. And -- and we started going to work, and

sometimes playing, you know, and -- and those little boys, the -- they -- they were

mischievous, you know, so -- so they -- they started killing turtles. There were

turtles. But we were s -- not stupid, but not educated, let's -- let's put it that -- that

you cannot eat turtle. You can eat turtle. Turtle tastes like chicken, if you prepare it,

you know, and --

Q: And you cook it.

A: --and you cook it. But they had eggs inside, in spring they had eggs, and they --

they were giving birth to probably something. And so those eggs, the boys were

catching turtles, killing them with a rock, big rock, and -- and taking those eggs out,

those poor things.

Q: Yeah.

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A: And leaving that good meat there. And -- and -- and their sister, she was older

than I, so -- and I knew hi -- then she knew how to cook those eggs. She put them on

a frying pan and -- and mixed, without -- there's no butter, no nothing, no -- no

bacon, no --

Q: Nothing.

A: Noth -- so -- but she made them somehow, and -- and she wanted me to try, a-at

least that much. And -- and I tried and I spit it out faster, I-- I just couldn't, as

hungry as I was, but I couldn't swallow that. It -- it smelled different than -- than an

egg. So -- so anyway, so -- so that was the end with the eggs. I was with my sister

with -- with weeds, we were more a soup of -- of weeds.

Q: Right.

A: That -- that's what our mom on Siberia was --

Q: Was making, yeah.

A: -- preparing, so -- so that's what we tried, too. And we were --

Q: How long did you stay there?

A: About four months. Four months, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: And -- and then, in the field, there was a Polish lady that we didn't know. You

know, everyone talks between -- she had two daughters. So apparently they were The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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doing the same thing, one day one, the one day the other one was going. And they --

and she -- she saw us talking Polish. So -- so when I -- she asked me, where is your --

she asked, where is your mamusha(ph), and I started crying. I just couldn't keep

my tears. And she just -- the word mamusha(ph) was for me more than I could take.

And at that point she said, don't cry. She -- she hugged me and -- and she says, P11 --

I'll help you. And she -- she says, this Sunday I'm gonna go to Polish consulate. She

knew where. And -- and she report -- she reported us. They send us bread and couple

cans of sardines, and -- and it was shortly before Easter. So bre-bread and sardines

ta -- what can you have? That's a royal meal.

Q: That's a feast, yeah.

A: So -- so we -- we had that for a couple days. And -- oh, and -- and at the consulate

they told her, bring one of them only, at least one. Well, she chose me, although --

and that one was older, but for some reason she chose me. So -- so I go. The whole

day we were going there and -- and back. Irka(ph) stayed home. When I came

home, Irka(ph) was sitting already half a mile away from -- from home and waiting

for me. And -- and of course then -- then we -- I gave her, probably that bread -- what

did I give you to carry?

A2: [inaudible]

Q: Okay.

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A: So-- so we went and -- and the -- in consulate they s -- they said to us that we" ll

send horse and buggy, and because Polish army had that, and -- and they came and

took our stuff, and -- and took it to the --

Q: Did they take you too?

A: Oh yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: Then they -- they take us all --

Q: Okay.

A: --to the orphanage. There, by the consulate was orphanage. So that's where our

orphanage life starts.

Q: So you're living in this collective farm, it sounds like somebody just sent you

there for no reason.

A: Right, but there was no orphanage.

Q: Oh, got it.

A: There -- there was -- not at that time. And later, in this -- in this pla -- but that was

Lenin-Jol, that -- see, I remember. In Lenin-Jol was orphanage, in Jalabad(ph)

there was none at that time. But it was happening all --

Q: Okay.

A: -- all the time, you know, somebody -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Q: Things were changing all the time.

A: Right, right.

Q: Okay, so now you go to an orphanage and it happens to be in Jalabad(ph),

right?

A: No, no, this one in Lenin-Jol.

Q: In Lenin-Jol, all right, so there --

A: So that's closer to -- on this side of the mountains.

Q: Okay.

A: Because there is a big mountain ridge --

Q: Okay.

A: -- in between.

Q: So you go to the orphanage in Lenin-Jol, and how long do you stay there?

A: Not too long, maybe month, maybe month and a half.

Q: And then?

A: And then we -- we go back to Jalabad(ph). In Jalabad(ph) was a train for us.

We got tickets already, and -- and they load as many kids as they could, a-as they

had on a train, and took us to -- oh my gosh --

A2: Krasnovodsk.

A: Krasnovodsk.

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Q: Okay.

A: In Krasnovodsk we waited in the open sun all day, no water, no nothing. The

kids were dying; some children were dying, some were -- and the teachers, you

know, are -- and -- a-and whoever were taking care of this group, many teachers, you

know, they didn't teach, only they took care of us. Eventually they were teachers,

they were --

Q: Yeah, mm-hm.

A: -- teaching us, but -- but not at this time. So -- so th -- one teacher went to get

some water with a bucket, and she was bringing the -- to the orphanage. By the time

she br -- came with this bucket to the orphanage, the bucket was empty. People were

from all over sometimes laying on the sand, you know, because they were hardly --

and they had cup in hand, and they would --

Q: Take water.

A: -- take water, and -- and it wasn't for them, she didn't want to give, but what she

could do --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- you know, people -- people were dying from star -- from --

Q: Thirst.

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A: -- thirst. So -- and once we got, you know, on -- on a -- well, and our -- our trunk

came with us.

Q: The one that came all the way from -- from Bransowice(ph)?

A: Brantowce, yes.

Q: Brantowce?

A: Yes.

Q: Oh my goodness.

A: And --

Q: Did it have anything in it le-- any more?

A: Not too much, but very important things. Skating -- skates. Books --

Q: Books.

A: -- that my mom told -- told me to take.

Q: Okay.

A: Wait, what else was there? A suit for my mom --

Q: Okay.

A: -- and one suit for my father. We were -- we were thinking about them, you know

Q: Sure.

A: -- when we meet them, they can -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Q: Of course.

A: --right away get dressed and --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- and look elegant. And -- and what -- there were some other -- other things, but

anyway, whatever I -- I mentioned, and the book I -- I wanted -- that was for

Jereczek(ph).

Q: Right.

A: But I--I wanted to keep that. One of the teachers took it, and I-- I didn't even

know which one. Skates, the teacher told me no, you cannot. You don't need it any

more. We were going to Pahlevi and Teheran, you know, there was no ice.

Q: Yeah.

A: So -- so that -- that somehow she convinced me. Of course my mom's and

father's, I cried, I want to have that, I want, because my mom and dad will not have

any -- anything to wear, to change into better clothes. And -- and what we had on,

maybe we had one change of dresses or something there. But they didn't allow us to

take that. But then I asked for book, and she allowed me to keep the book. She

allowed me to -- oh, couple pillowcases that we didn't exchange yet. So -- so those --

those I -- I had three of them, because I gave one to my sister, and one to my The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

brother. So -- so the pillowcases -- and they were beautiful embroidered, with my

mom's initials.

Q: Oh.

A: So -- so I still have that. And -- and there was something else, whatever -- but --

but anyway, I cried and cried, and she wouldn't let me. And -- but who -- who had --

and you know that now in church -- I -- I belong to a choir, church choir, and we

have one song that we sing, I never can finish. Always end up crying, because it -- it

is, when I came to the seashore, about Jesus. And ha --I shouldn't talk about it, I

always cry. Never can finish the song. Right away I see that in front of me, you

know.

Q: The trunk.

A: The trunk. The trunk is -- was so important to me at that time. But --

Q: It was the last piece from your life of your family.

A: Right. I have those little things yet, you know, but -- but those are not that

important, apparently. In my book I -- I drew that trunk there, you will find it when

you read it. And I don't know. Si--

Q: It must have very hard to leave that trunk.

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A: Yeah. Although I took those spa -- few things, you know, but -- but it's not

important as -- as that was. That was my -- my mom's -- how do you call, thing for

the wedding --

Q: Trousseau?

A: -- from her grandmother. Trousseau.

Q: Her di -- her trousseau.

A: Trousseau, filled up, you know, from -- from her babcia. So -- so it was

important. And I don't know if I ever -- I ever change, as far as that, you know, for --

my mom was -- was -- I cannot forget her, and -- and that's the reason why I wrote

book. That was because I wanted to -- somebody to find. I thought that some

miracle will be, and -- and somebody to find. Well, I found a little girl. I found -- she

came here to visit her son, from Poland. And -- and she remembered me. She w --

she wanted to -- to come to see us. And I thought maybe we'll develop a friendship,

but -- but she says she has to go back to Poland, she's just visiting her son.

Q: Now, you found a little girl who knew your mother?

A: Well, she's -- she's now the adult woman like me.

Q: Yes, yes.

A: So -- so --so she found, through the book. Her son bought the book, and -- and

her -- her son saw the last name, because he -- he and his father have the same last The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

name. So -- so now I --I met her, but that's the last thing, and not what I was

looking for. But what can you do? We are praying, we are doing, and God is

leading us. And why? I --I often ask th -- Irka(ph), you know, why do we live? Two

of us? I guess this is the purpose.

Q: We don't know.

A: Yeah.

Q: We don't know.

A: Yeah.

Q: So you had to get on that transport to Pahlevi--

A: Yeah.

Q: -- without the trunk.

A: Without the trunk.

Q: What was the transport --

A: And I was the last one from the orphanage to get on in the -- on the -- that --

Q: On the boat?

A: On the boat. And the -- and I remember everything, you know, the -- the walk

was boards, some of them missing. So the teacher says, watch it, so your leg doesn't

fall in. But -- and -- and it was only standing room, and those children that were sick,

they would be sent -- sitting on the -- on the floor in the tra -- in the ship. And those The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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January 28, 2015

ships, they -- they were not the real ship, not transport. Those were transporting the

-- probably coal or something, and they cleaned up and -- and are taking -- were

taking children and people, you know. They -- they transported, I think 12,000. It

could be 12,000 or plus some -- some small amount. I have, from the tu -- in the

book --

Q: Twelve thousand people, or 12,000 children, or --

A: People.

Q: Twelve thousand people and then --

A: And s -- and soldiers.

Q: Okay, in this -- on this boat, or --

A: No, no, no.

Q: No, no, no.

A: No, no, there was maybe five, six transportations through the Caspian Sea to

Pahlevi.

Q: Okay.

A: In-- in Pahlevi and Karachi we ended up.

Q: So, and -- okay, so you end up in Pahlevi, and how long do you stay there?

That's part of Iran.

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January 28, 2015

A: In Pahlevi they asked to -- or they took us to the shower. We all had to take

shower. They cut the hair -- or previously they cut the -- the hair, so we were all

bald. And then -- and then they changed us to a different section of the -- of the

camp, on sand, not -- under the sun. I don't think there was any -- any -- how do you

call -- there was any of what? I forgot here. Oh, tents. There was no tent -- excuse

me -- just the -- the food when they -- and I ha -- we di -- we slept on a blanket, on the

sand, and it was soft and warm. And -- til morning, and then got up and ran straight

to the sea to take a bath. Oh, I-- I enjoyed, to me that was a --a fun. Finally I could

swim. Oh, I didn't tell you at -- at the kibietka(ph), when we were in -- in the ca -- in

the kohaus(ph), one day, I don't know what I was wearing, did I have bathing suit

with me or what, but I jumped into [indecipherable], which is water -- waters

coming from the mount -- mountains, melting snow.

Q: Okay.

A: And -- and it was fast running water. I jumped in on our side, ended up about half

a mile farther --

Q: Really?

A: -- on the other side.

Q: Because the current was so strong? Oh my goodness.

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A: And I - and I-- I knew s -- how to swim, but not properly. I wasn't a good -- good

swimmer, I was just a swimmer.

Q: But you made it out of there.

A: I made it on the other side.

Q: Yeah.

A: The only thing, on the other side was Kirghizian village, and this one we had

only one -- one kibietka(ph) and that's it. So -- so on the other side kids were, I

think, with open mouths, how could I do that? I don't think they -- they knew how

to swim.

Q: Yeah.

A: Because I don't think any mother would allow kids to -- to go into water like

that.

Q: No, it's too dangerous. It's too dangerous. Okay, so -- so in some ways your

odyssey out from the Soviet Union is over by this point.

A: Yes.

Q: Did your life change? Did it -- did it get -- did i-- anything become brighter, or

was it all overshadowed because you had lost your mother?

A: Probably one and then two.

Q: Both of them.

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A: Both of them, yeah.

Q: Yeah.

A: Yeah, I --I never quit. And then in Teheran, we were waiting for other transport

[indecipherable] yet, you know, and they -- and they were bringing every day the

couple buses of the deportees or -- or whatevers. And -- and we would run with

Irka(ph) to the -- to that -- and that was a airport place that I can -- I think it was

used by American soldiers. And -- an-and we would run there and wait and watch

each person coming. And at the end, we would hug each other, no Mama. No

Mama. That was th-the probably saddest place where -- where we [indecipherable],

because from here we already knew that she didn't came out from Russia. Because

all through her th-- Teheran were coming people from Russia, were -- have t -- had

to stop there.

Q: It was the first place.

A: First place. There was a hospital that was available, there was a place where like

Irka(ph) had to go to -- to that place. She'll probably tell you that. And they wanted

to -- to take Irka(ph) only to that place. And we -- we got two -- two of us, no, you

will not take her away.

Q: Yeah.

A: Irka(ph), you will not -- she will not stay. I am not going.

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Q: Yeah.

A: So -- so we -- we tried to -- we didn't trust anybody any more. Because there were

some instances that they would not -- oh wait, again, I'm -- I'm getting blockages.

Q: That -- that people wouldn't let you be together, is that it? They -- they would

split you apart?

A: Well, they wanted to take her for the place where they will feed her --

Q: Okay.

A: -- give her better food --

Q: Okay.

A: --and I didn't need that. I-- I was -- could be eating only --

Q: You were healthier.

A: I-I was healthier, ta -- right.

Q: Okay. So --

A: And -- and she -- and started from Siberia, she was always undernourished, so

she had problem always, and she still has. But G-God is good to us. So -- and her --

Q: Did you hear from your brother? Did you know what was go --

A: Nothing --

Q: Nothing.

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A: -- nothing, we didn't know yet, until we -- after couple months we were

transferred to Maleer(ph). Maleer(ph) was a little away from -- from the sea, camp

for the Polish army, which never was u -- not Polish, for American army. In India

they had stationed American soldiers. So -- so they gave tha -- this for the

orphanage, a thousand kids.

Q: And this was in India?

A: That was in India.

Q: So you moved from --

A: From --

Q: -- Iran to India?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: And then ha -- oh, I di--1--- oh, I skipped a little bit. I skipped because from

Teheran, we went to Isfahan. And Isfahan was -- was a -- was a city of wealthy per

-- pers -- persovia -- per --

Q: Persians.

A: Persians. And they donated their homes, summer homes to the Polish --

Q: Orphans.

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January 28, 2015

A: -- orphans. So there was five -- over 5,000 orphans there. And -- and so they

transferred us to -- to that camp number six. And number six was the largest, there

was 300 children. And that was some kind of convent, I think. And there was a--a

church by that, and there was bishop presiding there, so -- so that was a big, big

place. And we had already organized school [coughs] Excuse me. And I was in fifth

grade, because in Poland | was -- I finished fourth and started fifth, but never --

never finished, because of whatever there. So -- so we got separated with Irka(ph).

Irka(ph) was in one building, I was in the other building, but we were close, so we

were gradually getting used to it. And -- and Irka(ph) by then was little better. But

her teeth were not better, but that's her subject. But I had to drag her to the dentist.

Oh, she was -- no, she won't -- doesn't want to go. She has very sensitive teeth, and I

wish I would share with her. I--I go to dentist, at 86, I still have my teeth, and my --

and -- and she -- she has problem. So -- but somehow --

Q: But it also sounds like you took care of each other.

A: On Siberia, salt to -- to brush your teeth.

Q: Oh my.

A: That's what my -- our ma -- mom told us. And I still use salt rinse before I go to

sleep. Kills the germs, and it's not tasting good, but --

Q: It does the trick.

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A: Yeah, and in -- in Isfahan, we had very good teacher, fifth grade teacher. And

she gave us a project to do, to fi-- to write your story of the Siberian deportation.

Q: That's a very good project.

A: Whatever -- whatever you lived, from your home til now, it's -- and I wrote mine,

I don't know how many pages.

A2: Four.

A: Pardon me?

Q: Four pages.

A: Oh no, more than that.

Q: Okay.

A: Well, whatever. I --I think it's like 15 or something.

Q: Okay.

A: But that's okay. [indecipherable] And -- and that is the beginning of my si-- my

writing the story. She -- I kind of build it in-into me, one thing to -- to write

something. But I -- but maybe another teacher in Mexico.

Q: Also?

A: That was another s -- time that I was instructed to -- to write another -- oh, you

right maybe -- maybe you right, because I have written another one, and that one is

about 15 pages, in Mexico -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Q: Okay.

A: -- when I was in, I think first year or second year in high school.

Q: Okay, and so this first one could have been shorter.

A: Right, right.

Q: Do you still have both of these writings?

A: Lam sure I do, because I don't throw out nothing.

Q: Okay.

A: [ha--I'm Hector collector. In -- would you believe in Poland I started.

Q: Oh yeah?

A: You know what? A little pieces of glass, colored glass. That attracted me, so that

was my collection in Poland.

Q: Before you left.

A: Before I left.

Q: Before you left. Before you were deported.

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: Okay, I'd like to kind of wrap this up, I know that there are a lot of sections that

we can't pay as much attention to, but I'd like also to be able to talk to --

A: Irka(ph).

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: -- your sister today. So after -- after India, after you were in India, at some point

you were sent to Mexico, is this correct?

A: Yes, yes.

Q: And this was all with the orphanage?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. How -- were you in India -- okay, let me put it this way, phrase the

question this way: when did they send you to Mexico, what year?

A: That was at the end of "43, I think.

Q: Okay.

A: In November. On November first, I think we arrived in Le6en, Guanajuarto, and

--and that's -- that's where --

Q: And why in Mexico? Was there another orphanage there or something?

A: No. General Sikorski visited Mexi-Mexico. I think that was with the suggestion

from maybe -- maybe President Roosevelt, because I'm sure he came and asking for

the staying in United States, for the ca -- bringing some -- some Polish people to --

to U.S.A., and -- and I know Roosevelt wanted to be friends with Stalin, and who --

who of Poles would want to be friends with Stalin any more?

Q: Yeah.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: So -- and -- and of course that wouldn't go with the -- along with the politics. So --

so possibly that's where it came from, and so General Sikorski went to -- to the

mexi -- to Mexico to ja -- to the president of Mexico, and -- and he agreed. He -- he

says, I can find for 50,000 Polish refugees. So that was --

Q: That's huge.

A: -- the -- the beginning, but it didn't happen.

Q: Okay.

A: First group arrived in Mexico on July second, or something like that.

Q: July second which year?

A: Forty-three.

Q: Forty-three.

A: And the -- and the second one arrived on November -- I think first. So -- so

whatever -- what -- whatever was promised, didn't happen, because United States

didn't want to -- I don't know didn't want, didn't have ships, or whatever, the war

was, you know, in -- in --

Q: Going on.

A: -- going on and -- and possibly -- so -- so all the Polish people went to the English

colonists in Africa.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: I see. But you made it to Mexico.

A: Right.

Q: Were you on the first, or on the second --

A: Second.

Q: In November.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: And you went by boat, by ship?

A: By ship, and that was a huge, huge -- the ship weighed I -- I also za -- forgot -- R -

R something. No. Well anyway, whatever the name is, it's in the book. I'm sending

Q: Everything to the book.

A: -- everything to the book.

Q: And the book, we have to say -- we have to mention the name was -- tell me the

title of your book.

A: "The Fulfillment of Visionary --

Q: = return.

A: -- Dream."

Q: "The Fulfillment of Visionary Dream."

A: That's why I wanted to give you another one -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Ah, okay.

A: -- but I guess so -- so -- so return, you have return --

Q: Okay.

A: -- because those were the first editions.

Q: I see, and it is the visionary dream. "The Fulfillment of Visionary Dream."

A: And this one was a little -- the truth is always the same, and whatever else I did,

corrected some -- some -- but I had very good editor.

Q: Okay, okay. So now when we're talking, you're in Mexico in November, and are

you taken to another red -- orphanage?

A: No, it was the same. Mexico gave us a hacienda, which is like big property of

somebody that is not around, or gave that, I do -- I really don't know the story of

that. And [indecipherable] Santa Rosa, and that was enough for school, a huge

school building, high school was in a little different -- but i-in -- within the roun --

around the same area. So -- so we -- we had very good teachers. We have even -- I

don't know if you are familiar of a Jesus of Mercy. The priests that brought Jesus

of Mercy, a story, or -- or whatever, to United States, across the ocean, was my

teacher. I have that many letters from him.

Q: Wow.

A: From -- and -- and he was a priest.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: Was this a particular order?

A: Yes, Marian.

Q: Okay.

A: Marian father --

Q: Marian order, okay.

A: Marian fathers.

Q: Okay.

A: And -- and he came here to United States, and brought all the papers of Sister

Faustina. So -- so all -- all this -- that story was -- and when I was writing book, I

went -- I had at that time, I bought a -- a little house in Florida, and I went to f--to

that house, and that's where I have written the book.

Q: Oh.

A: And every day, whenever I started writing, I would pray to him, because he -- he

was al-already was dead, and all the story I knew about him, you know, so -- and

seems like always something happened if I didn't pray, and I couldn't s -- could not

continue to write. And then I thought, why can't I get back in the -- and all ofa

sudden, oh, I didn't pray. I pray and then for the rest of the day I will write without

stopping.

Q: You were fine.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: So -- and then I had three occurrences that was, I don't know how to call, the

vision or something, or it was tired vision, or what. Maybe -- maybe somebody who

is more educated would know something about it. But at night I would wake up,

something wakes me up. And one time the whole ceiling, I don't see the ceiling, I

don't see the pictures. Like I am in some kind of thing, and -- and all of a sudden

disappears after -- after a while. And that happened three times, and I thought, is my

Mama trying to --

Q: Reach you.

A: -- appear to mia -- to-- to me? Yeah. Those are -- those are the things for

somebody with more education, more faith maybe to -- to -- to receive. But I don't

have even one picture, because my uncle, the one in Wolkowysk, he had to destroy

his pictures.

Q: The one who was left --

A: The one that --

Q: -- your mother's younger brother.

A: Right. He -- he says he probably buried them maybe in his backyard or

something, and -- and water came and you know --

Q: Destroyed, yeah.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: --he had to destroy them anyway. So -- so whatever. But he -- he -- when I was

there, he brought me his album. I remember the same album that I was looking

when we were visiting them. And -- and I -- I saw so many missing -- missing spots.

And he left those, the same way as they were before the war, except missing

pictures of my family.

Q: Oh, how sad.

A: Because he was trying to -- to sh -- to -- to con --

Q: Conceal.

A: -- conceal the -- his -- his relationship to -- because my father was involved in so

many -- so many things, that he was -- he was one on the list, that we will deport

him. And so he says he was packed. He -- his things were in bundles --

Q: Ready to go.

A: -- because whenever they were coming, somebody would inform him, and -- and

he would be trying, you know, be ready. But somehow he -- they couldn't find

pictures. Probably they were looking for pictures. So --

Q: Such unbelievable detail. Unbelievable. So you were in Mexico in the orphanage

for how long, for how many years?

A: From November 43, to May 46.

Q: Three years. And you finished your high school there?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Almost.

Q: Almost.

A: Almost. And then -- then when we came to United States, I -- I was taking

courses here and there, took -- in high school I took something that would help me.

Math, it is my -- it was my -- always my top --

Q: How did you get to -- how did you get to the United States? What was the re --

how did --

A: The orphanage.

Q: Orphanage.

A: Still with the orph -- orphanage, 105 children were -- were sponsored in the

orphanage, that was [indecipherable] and Harlem. They -- they finally quit

existing and they sold for to build their -- that -- built condos there.

Q: Okay.

A: So now -- now in the same pla -- next to the cemetery is -- is the --

Q: And your brother, did he come to Chicago?

A: In'53.

Q: And he came from England, or from --

A: He came -- he came from England. When the Pole -- Polish army was --

Q: Disbanded.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: -- disbanded, and then my father and he -- and father got not too -- too young,

single woman, and he was working in the hospital, you know, and I don't know

what he was doing, what -- maybe sweeping, you know, because at that time he -- he

probably doesn't know English at all. But he met her and -- and I guess they wanted

to get married, and I -- I never forget, my stepmother was -- was very upset at me

because I -- I wrote to my father, and apparently my father told -- told her that I

don't want my father to get married. How can you get married, we will find Mama.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: And how old was I? At that time, twel -- I was 11 when we were at -- arrested,

and I was 22 almost --

Q: Right.

A: Twenty-one and a half when he came. So -- and I wanted him to take me to the

altar, so I got married.

Q: So you got married to --

A: First the boy. He asked me, okay, I answer yes, yes, yes, right now. So -- but

those are mistakes of your youth, and then I had to divorce him.

Q: Oh dear.

A: Yeah.

Q: Oh dear.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: But I have three beautiful children, very, very gifted. One -- one is a pharmacist,

a doctor in pharmacy.

Q: What's her name?

A: Lily Klein, now.

Q: Uh-huh, okay.

A: And that's her professional name.

Q: Okay.

A: And Mark. Mark builds huge machines. When I ask him tell me what you're

doing, well, your house would fit in.

Q: In one of your machine -- okay.

A: So sometimes he has to travel to -- to the country that it was sold to, and they --

and they produce the instruments like syringes, or --

Q: Oh yeah.

A: -- and at one time they will -- they will come out maybe 50 at one time or 20 at

one time, or something -- something fantastic what they can do. But --

Q: And then -- oops, your third child?

A: She had piano major, and --

Q: Okay. Her name was --

A: Lucia.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

Q: And she's passed away?

A: She passed away. I have --I have her picture here somewhere. After -- after, Ill

show you.

Q: Okay. I'd like to see it.

A: Yeah.

Q: I know there's a lot more that we could talk about, and I would like to ask you

about, but we --

A: You can call me anytime.

Q: Thank you. Thank you. Well, we're going to talk now to your sister, and --

A: Yeah, I would feel bad if she didn't.

Q: Yeah.

A: Oh no, no, oh, she always says, she always [indecipherable] you should. You

should.

Q: And so --

A: You remember more than I do.

Q: So for -- for -- for today, we" ll say that this concludes the United States

Holocaust Memorial Museum interview --

A: Okay.

Q: -- with Stanislawa Synowiec Tobis.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Tobis.

Q: -- on January 28", 2015. Thank you.

A: Thank you.

Q: Okay.

A: Thank you very much, and thank you for accepting our group, that will be on th

-- now on more -- i-i-in more places shown, and -- and more people will know, and

more people will take it to the heart and don't allow that their country will -- could

end up in the same, because I don't -- I don't want anybody to su-suffer and go -- go

through I -- what I have. I was strong enough, I don't know how anybody can take

it.

Q: Lalso don't. I also don't.

A: There -- there were some that didn't, you know.

Q: They didn't make it, they couldn't, it was too much.

A: Right, right. I didn't tell some things, experiences that we went through, like a

person dying, frozen person dying when on the way to train on Siberia yet, before

we started our trip to -- to freedom. But it's too -- too many things, and not too many

things comes at one time, and you cannot tell everything at one time.

Q: No, even in a long interview, even over several -- you -- i-it's compacting too

much.

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Interview with Stanistawa Tobis

January 28, 2015

A: Exactly right, right.

Q: Yeah. But I'm appreciative of what you did share.

A: Thanks.

Q: And I think it opens -- i-it shows us just how difficult this -- this all was, and --

and I know it costs, so I thank you for paying that cost by telling us.

A: Thank you, thank you.

Q: Appreciate it. Okay.

Conclusion of Interview

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The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.