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Interview with Fela Warschau June 10, 1999 Beginning Tape One, Side A

Q: -- Holocaust Memorial Museum, Jeff and Toby Herr collection. This is an interview with Fela Warschau, conducted by Gary Covino, on June 10", 1999, in Sheboygan, Wisconsin. This is a follow up interview to a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum videotaped interview conducted with Fela Warschau on February ninth, 1995. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum gratefully acknowledges Jeff and Toby Herr, for making this interview possible. This is tape number one, side A.

Well thanks for doing this interview today.

A: Oh, you're welcome.

Q: We're sitting in your house in Sheboygan, Wisconsin. It's a little bit warm, so we have the windows open, in case you hear a little bit of traffic outside, or kids playing, or whatever. A lot of kids playing on the streets around here.

A: Sorry, couldn't predict the weather.

Q: That's okay, no problem. Let me just have you say your name, and where we are today.

A: My name is Fela Warschau. I live in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, on 2407 North 12" Street, and the day is June 11", 1999.

Q: A very sunny Friday. You've already done two very comprehensive, very eloquent, actually, interviews for the Holocaust Museum --

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A: Yeah.

Q: -- on -- on video.

A: Yes, I did.

Q: So, in our interview today, we're not going to go over as much of your wartime experiences, as you have in those videos, those are --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- pretty complete. So -- But what we want to do today is talk about what's been happening to you since the war. And I'm just trying to think of a good place to pick up.

You've told the story of the day of liberation --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- and you were in Bergen-Belsen --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- concentration camp. And, you know, one question I had, which you didn't talk about specifically in these interviews, is the final days of the war, the conditions in the camp were just deplorable. And you and your sister --

A: Yes.

Q: -- and two friends --

A: Right.

Q: -- were keeping yourselves alive with one potato.

A: Yes, but we also came -- we came to Bergen-Belsen, having a li -- a portion of bread from Hamburg, from a -- from a so-called labor camp. But this labor camp was a sub-

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 4 camp of Neuengamme. And it -- Neuengamme was an extermination camp, everybody knows that, but somehow we got transported to Bergen-Belsen, with this piece of bread yet. So we ate first this bread, and then this potato, but it was just impossible to -- you know, we were losing our strength, and could barely walk. So, it is true that we stayed alive with one potato, I don't know by what miracle we did stay alive, but like I said, to the end, we couldn't walk any more. Went in in the barrack to lay down, and to die. This is when liberation came. I was really also sick with typhoid fever, but I had sort of the walking around typhoid fever. I wasn't that severe, my sister was. She had to be taken away to a hospital, and she was very, very ill. When -- When she got well, I could hardly recognize her. She looked worse than the people that were dead in the camp. But somehow, you see, we survived, and we didn't find anyone of our family. It was very heartbreaking, and at this point it seems pointless to live. There was nothing to go on for.

Q: On the -- On the -- the actual day of liberation, as you talked about in your video interviews, you had actually, I guess, gone into the barracks, and y-you --

A: Gave up.

Q: You were going to die?

A: Yes. Yes, we did. And one of my friends, she -- she wanted to -- to just walk out, and sort of a last farewell look at the camp, and came back and told us that was funny things going on out there. I just said, "Forget it. You hallucinating," you know. "Let me die in peace." She kept on nudging, and my sister went out. I don't know where my sister got the strength to come back and grab me by my arm, and tell me, "Get up, you have to see

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 5 what -- what is out there." It was unbelievable. I just didn't think I was alive. No, it was impossible. I thought I died.

Q: Did you think it was some sort of dream?

A: Yes, sort of like I was watching, you know, this isn't really happening to me. I don't know. But it was real enough, and we were liberated by the English army. It was heartbreaking though, that so many people, those living pe -- skeletons that couldn't walk any more, you know, getting bread, and couldn't make use of it any more, because that too late for them.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: You know?

Q: The -- The question I had about all this, because you have talked about this in -- at some length in your other interviews, is if the British hadn't come right then, if an allied -

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- military force had not arrived somewhere in that period --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- to liberate the camp, do you have any notion how much longer you might have lived?

A: Maybe a day or two. Because maybe I wouldn't be starved to that point of dying, but I completely gave up, because I thought there was no other way. There's nothing left.

Sooner or later, we all will be dead. This is the end of it. So, just giving up on everything.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 6 No food, no water, nothing. Nowhere to turn. There -- There -- Outside the barbed wire, there was kohlrabi -- I probably mentioned that too, the piles kohlrabi that were decomposed, that people there still risking their lives to get one of those squash things, a smelly things to eat.

Q: What are those? Kohlrabi, what -- what is it?

A: It's like -- What can I say? It's a thing that you used to feed animals. And I know it was -- in Europe it's called kohlrabi, I don't know how to translate this into English, up to this day, I don't know. But that's supposed to have been the people's food. It was warm in April, you know. The sun was beating down on that. The kohlrabi was decomposed. People were risking their lives, actually, trying to get one, and they were shot. They were shot to death, almost on the minute of liberation, because they were so desperate to get this. But I was never one of the brave, to go and risk like that. I was a very timid girl, and I -- I would say the honest truth, my sister was the organizer. If it wouldn't be for her, maybe I wouldn't be alive, because she worked in a different place, where she had more access to food. And she always used to smuggle into the camp, some of it for me, which was a great help.

Q: After all that you had been through for all those years --

A: Yes.

Q: -- and all that happened to you, why is it at this particular time -- you say you had given up?

A: Yes.

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Q: Why do you think it was at this particular time that -- that you started to feel that way?

A: You mean, after I was liberated?

Q: No, just before. You said you had, you know --

A: Because I could see that there was no hel -- no help coming from nowhere. Nothing.

Where do we go? Surrounded by barbed wire and dead corpses. And you walked around, and -- and people were just dying right in front of you. What was waiting for us? The same thing, you know? So it's just -- you might as well, sooner or later, because there's no other way.

Q: But you had -- didn't you have indications that the Germans were losing the war at that point?

A: Oh yes, we know that. We know they were losing the war, especially when I was in Hamburg, then we were still working there on the streets, you know? Th-The fliers, the Allied fliers, they were coming three, four, five times a day, and we worked there. Like it says in my interview, next to a radar station, we could hear that radar turning and beeping, and the sirens going on. They were here. We could -- We could hear the bombs flying, and everything. And the city of Hamburg was one rubble on top of the other.

That's the way it looked. So we knew no -- no country in condition -- in condition like that could win a war. It was impossible for them. But the question was, are we -- are we - - will we be able to live -- to be -- survive this? That was the question.

Q: Did you talk much with your sister or your other friends there about how the war was going, and -- and how long you thought it would be before it ended, before it was over?

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A: We really did not. It -- We were so absorbed in trying, first to survive from day to day.

We did not see a tomorrow. That's what it was, just trying to survive every day as it came.

Q: So things like what was happening in Hamburg with the bombings, and the --

A: Right.

Q: -- other things you saw, they were sort of -- you would see them, but it was almost like that was kind of the -- the background --

A: Yes, it --

Q: -- to just staying alive.

A: -- it wasn't touching us, just this is it, you know?

Q: Mm-hm. This may sound like a silly question, but how long can four people make one potato last? You --

A: Would you --

Q: You talk about this one potato.

A: Would you believe that? We made it last almost three or four days, just eating -- you could look through that slice when we were eating. I don't know w-what kept us going. I honestly don't know. People say, oh, you were destined. God was watching over you, that you should survive and be able to tell that story. I really don't know what forces kept us alive. It's just impossible to tell.

Q: Before you started eating it, how big was the potato? Do you remember?

A: Well, I would say it was quite a nice size, you know?

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Q: You're showing about four or five inches there.

A: I would say --

Q: Oh.

A: -- something like that.

Q: Oh, okay, so, you know --

A: How she found it, I don't know. I say it was a miracle.

Q: Right. It must have taken a lot of willpower not to eat more of it, at once.

A: Yes, it did, but it seems like we were always the ones that had this willpower. When we went to work, we got our portion of bread in the morning, some people ate it right away, they were so hungry. We were also the same way hungry, but my sister and I, my friends, we never ate the whole portion, we always divided it, because I wanted to have the reassurance that I have something to eat for later. We knew nothing else was coming.

St -- On the -- On the bowshtella we -- we never got anything unless we worked -- one time -- you worked for a couple weeks in a village across the Elba. The village was called Kronst, and we were loading bricks on a boat. But that was also -- you had to be lucky to be picked for this. You see, we were fighting -- everybody was fighting to go to the village, because the local people brought food for us, and there was more to eat, so it was a great big fight in the morning to get first in line, to be picked for this place. We were always divided in different working groups. Most of the time, a majority of the time, I was in Hamburg, cleaning the streets.

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Q: Before liberation, at the end, you -- you talked about, in your video interview, how the -- there were, you know, still, of course, you know, German guards there, but they were wearing surrender armbands, and --

A: Tho-Those were not German guards any more.

Q: Oh.

A: Those were -- They're volunteer militias from the Ukraine, Lithuane, and Hungary, and they -- they had white armbands, we could see that. And those people were still shooting at us, when the people tried to get those kohlrabi, you know? I can't understand their logic, and their way of thinking.

Q: In those final days, were there still any sort of selections going on?

A: No, no.

Q: That had stopped?

A: Chaos. It was nothing. Not where we were. You see, Bergen-Belsen, were like several camps together, divided. That much I know, because if -- we were with others, but not -- I didn't even know that children survived there, in certain places. We di -- We didn't know that, because we were not together with these people.

Q: So in the end it really wasn't -- the killing that was going on in the camp was not the -- the organized systematic killing, but it --

A: No.

Q: -- but things were still happening.

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A: I-It -- Things were happening, and they didn't have to do anything. People were just dying, because they didn't feed -- s -- the people that were there previously, they probably weren't fed for the longest time already. So, that was just like -- they were self- destructing, they didn't have to do anything.

Q: When the British came into the camp, and one of your friends came in and told you to take a look, and --

A: Yes.

Q: -- you started to see these scenes, and you weren't sure if you were dreaming, or if it was real, again you've talked about all that in your video interview. Do you remember your first contact with any of the -- the British soldiers?

A: Not -- Well, we -- they ge -- they handed out food. This is all I ru -- I remember, being close in contact. I also watched them later, right away film that liberation. They were putting it on film. And I know there is a video of it, it's called liberation of Bergen- Belsen. This is exactly what they did, right away. And next thing I know, when we were sort of already settled, and they came in -- I don't know, they must have been Scotchmen, or whatever, they came in with their bagpipes and skirts, you know. And I was sitting on -- on the curb, and I looked up, and that's the first time I've seen a man dressed like that, in a skirt, and I just laughed so hard, I could hardly catch my breath, cause I didn -- never saw anything like it.

Q: Do you remember what you and your sister said to each other in the first moments, when you realized what was going on?

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A: We were just overwhelmed, and then my sister started feeling very sick, and we tried to get her in the hospital, but there was no hospitals there, there were just makeshift buildings, mattresses on the floors, and the people were laying just covered up with sheets. Not enough doctors, and do you know, the German population from around, they were forced to come into the camp and see all this. And the English needed help with the sick people, those nurses, the local nurses didn't even want to come in, they had to be brought in at gunpoint. They didn't want to come and help the sick people. It took me a long time to find my sister in those buildings. I didn't know where they took her. Finally I found her, and there she was on the floor laying and holding a -- a rag with cold water to her head, and she said, last night the doctor said to her -- he looked at her, and he said, "This woman has the crisis tonight. If she's al -- If she survives, she'll be alive tomorrow morning." She said, "I didn't sleep a whole night, I wanted to die with my eyes open." Here I come in the morning, and thank God she was alive. Then they first started giving her medication. Medication was so scarce that they only gave it to people they thought would survive. That was the case of it.

Q: What was your sister's name?

A: Helen.

Q: And is she still alive?

A: Yeah, she lives in Milwaukee. Yeah, but she does not care to talk a lot about it.

There's certain people that don't, my husband especially.

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Q: Mm-hm. Before we move on, maybe you could give us the names of your various family members --

A: My -- My --

Q: -- and a little --

A: -- immediate?

Q: Yeah, and you know, a little description of them, and just what -- what you know of what happened to them.

A: You mean my i -- my -- like my mother and father? Well, my mother's name in Yiddish was Matel. I don't know how to translate it any other way, that's what it was. My father's name was Israel. I had two more brothers. One of them was called in Yiddish, Smaul Hirsch, and the other one, Yankel David. And we all came from the Lodz ghetto into Auschwitz, and this is what happened to them, they never got out of there.

Q: Out of the ghetto itself?

A: Pardon?

Q: They didn't get out of the ghetto?

A: No, we -- we all went with the transport from the ghetto, together we went to Auschwitz, but they never got out of there. They were -- My mother was with us when they were selecting the people, they just took her right to the left side. And my two brothers and my father, we didn't know for sure, but then we met a gentleman that was in the ghetto, a neighbor, and he was behind them in line, and he told us that they went the wrong way, so there was no way we could find anybody any more.

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Q: How about other relatives, members of your family? Their names, and what you know?

A: You mean uncles and aunts?

Q: Sure, [indecipherable]

A: My father had one, two -- he had two brothers and two sisters. I don't know exactly what happened to them, because they didn't live in the same city, they lived in -- away from Lodz, in a small place called Alexandroff, in Pola -- in -- in Polish, and my mother had one brother, but my mother's brother had about six or seven children, and from all of those children, two of them survived, a brother and a sister. But the brother died several years ago in New Jersey, he had cancer, and he died. His sister, I think, is still alive in Jerusalem. I haven't heard from her for a long time. And from my father's side --

Q: What -- What were their names? Before we go on, what -- their names were?

A: My cousin's name? My cousin's name was Hill, and my cous -- her -- the lady's name was Cela -- Celine. Those two survived, but there were more that did not survive. And from my father's side, none of them survived, there was no sign of them. My grandparents -- My grandma -- My grandma was taken away, my mother's mother, huh.

She was really an old lady. It-It's hard to talk about it.

Q: Mm-hm. You said your sister doesn't like to speak of these things?

A: Not much, no. Mm-mm. She was asked several times by the generation after in -- in Milwaukee that organizes the survivors to speak in schools. She went a couple times, but she doesn't care to do that, no. My husband wouldn't do that, either.

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Q: What about just privately, like when you and your sister talk, or when you see each other --

A: Well, yes --

Q: -- if you talk on the phone, does it come up?

A: -- we reminiscent -- reminiscent. I have one of my friends that we were together. She lives in New Jersey. The other one died, also several years of cancer. Otherwise, when I went -- you see, my two daughters, I have two daughters, they live in New York City, and when we used to go and visit in New York City, I used to get together with them, because it's like family, you know, we were always together. One of them had died several years ago, she was sick. But this one is alive, and we are always in touch. As a matter of fact, we just talked on the phone about a week ago, and we always reminiscent about the old times, where we were. They were also in the Lodz ghetto. From different places, you know, he took people from all over Poland, dragging them into the -- certain ghettos from here and there, confusing us completely. And she was from a little town somewhere, but she spent time in the ghetto, and from there, also came to Auschwitz, so we have been in the same camp, afterwards. And liberated together, so we are always in touch.

Q: When you talk to your sister, what type of things come up? What -- What type of things do you talk about or remember?

A: Home. How it was before the war. About my father, my -- my brothers, what we all did. My mother, my grandmother. My grandmother had a little grocery store. In Europe

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 16 it's entirely different. It's not like here, you know. I -- I don't know how to describe, but everything was in canvas sacks, you know. You had a scale, and bags, and people came, and said, "Give me a half a pound." So you took -- took a bag out, and took it out of the sack, and weigh it, and just give it to the people. But they got to get on in age, and th -- it was hard for them. You d -- had no people working for you, if you wanted to make a living, you had to do everything yourself. So they sold that little grocery store, and both came to live with us, grandpa and grandma. Grandpa died right before the war, about two or three years before the war, and grandma un -- when they came to live with us, she sort of took over the kitchen. She was used to always being busy, and my mom was very distressed about it, because my father's workshop was sort of divided between the kitchen and his workshop. So she used to say, "Mom, what are you doing? People come up and they think I made a maid out of you." And she used to say, "What am I supposed to do, sit down and die? Don't be silly." So my mom used to say, "Well, why don't you let at least the girls help you with the dishes?" She said, "Och, let them go and play.

When they get married, they'll do plenty dishes." So that was, you know? And then in wintry nights, we used to sit around in the evening, my grandpa used to tell stories about sages, and learned man, all these cert -- also certain fables, or we used to play -- of all the things we used to play in winter, Bingo, or cards we used to play, with the children, it was like a game. The s -- And neighbors used to come up, and have like a neighborhood klatch, you know? It was always -- our house was always full of company. People used to come, and even during the war, when they occupied, and we were still in our own

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 17 apartment, my father was forced to -- to work for the Germans because he was about the only craftsman in our little place, and you had to do what they told you, you know, otherwise they shoot -- they come -- they come, my father had to repair their watches.

They -- They brought gold pieces that they robbed all these big farm -- rich farms. My father had to melt them down and make bracelets, and rings, and whatnot, all that they send into Germany. And so we had -- we had to work for them. A lot of them were real bad, but there were -- there was a single one among them that would bring some bread, or whatever, which was very helpful in those times. But still, the neighbors -- and there was a lot of people that had no food any more, and whatever we had, people used to come up, and we had a big bench, and a table on the side, whatever we cooked, we always used to share with everybody. I-It's not something that I'm trying to tell you because I won't get a medal for it, but that's the way it was in our house, we used to share everything we had.

Q: Mim-hm. So it sounds like when you talk to your sister about the past, mostly what you talk about is your family life before the war.

A: Yes, yes, a lot of times. Well, talking about the war brings a lot of bad memories, and a lot of heartache. Most of the time we try to avoid it, unless there's something specific that comes up.

Q: What might that be? What -- What -- A certain anniversary, or something in the news?

A: Oh, probably. Anniversary of liberation, or when we go to, in spring, you know, when they -- Yom HaShoah day comes, or whatever. So it's just -- certain things come back, and reminisce -- then we reminisce in the -- those times. Remember when this happened,

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 18 and we almost dead. Like I got blood poisoning working on -- on a -- they call it bowshtella, we had to dig ditches for foundations for the peop -- for homes for the people that were bombed out in Hamburg, when I was working on that place -- assigned to that job, and I hit a rusty nail, and I got blood poisoning in my hand, in my whole hand here.

We had an infirmary, I went to this, there was a Czech woman, also prisoner. She just digged around and digged around and -- with nothing, and couldn't find anything. At that time we had an Obersharfiihrer who was crazy about us being healthy. He didn't care about food or anything, just healthy. So at that time, three of us were sick, so he took the three of us, with a German SS woman, and there was one of -- always picked the altesta from our own people, and they took us into the city. Well, that camp was in Zazell, and they took us into the city of Hamburg. I -- The only thing I know, that we went into a prisoner of war camp. I don't know to this day if it was French or Czech, or -- or Italian, or Czech, or whatever it was, I have no idea, because I couldn't recognize the language.

And this doctor, when my -- they had a doctor there, also prisoner. When my turn came, he looked at my finger, and he pointed, and then he pointed at the plain wooden table, pointed that I should lay down. Stretched out myself, and he poured from a bottle ether on my face -- just plain ether. I was choking, bells were ringing in my ears, and I thought I was dead. This is it, I'm dying, I gave up. But when I woke up, I was sitting already, and my finger was bandaged. And afterwards, they changed my bandages in camp, then I could see what it looked like, my finger was like separated in half. My whole nail was gone, and there was a piece, they cut off there a piece. But I healed ver -- very, very

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 19 slowly. I had to go to work with all that. So, we had ups and downs in the camp, you know? There were some that cared, again, for food, but didn't care for our welfare. These -- They called them the Obersharfiihrer, that the camp, tha -- from the SS that administered the camp, and we had a few that were real vicious, too. We had SS women also, and they were even worse than the men.

Q: What -- If we could talk about what happened after liberation. You didn't leave, as I understand it, you didn't leave Bergen-Belsen immediately --

A: No.

Q: -- there was a period in which people stayed in the camp.

A: Well, you had to re-gain your strength a little bit, and because my friend found her brothers, they came to take her back to the American zone, they did talk us into going with them, thinking, oh maybe you still will find someone, you know? We did go. Of course, we had no money, no we traveled how we traveled.

Q: Let me just ask you -- End of Tape One, Side A Beginning Tape One, Side B

Q: This is a continuation of a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Fela Warschau. This is tape number one, side B. -- Bergen-Belsen immediately --

A: No.

Q: -- there was a period in which people stayed in the camp.

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A: Well, you had to re-gain your strength a little bit, and because my friend found her brothers, they came to take her back to the American zone, they did talk us into going with them, thinking, oh maybe you still will find someone, you know? We did go. Of course, we had no money, no, we traveled how we traveled.

Q: Let me just ask you, you -- you know, in the camp it was you and your sister, and -- and you mentioned these two friends.

A: Two friends.

Q: Do you remember their names, and could you tell us a little bit more about --

A: Sure.

Q: -- them, and where they came from, and --

A: Sure. The one that died is -- her name was Doba Finkelstein. The other one was -- name was Genia Stolsoft, and Genia came from a small place called Kovol, but Doba was a girl from Lodz, that much I know. She's the one that died. And it was funny with her, because she was looking for a brother, or her cousin, and she found a man with the same last name as hers, thinking it's a -- a relative, and to the end she married him, he wasn't a relative. She didn't even have to change her last name.

Q: Hm. And how did you all team up, how did you and your sister sort of team up with them, and become friends?

A: Pardon?

Q: How did you and your sister meet them, and how did you all become friends?

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A: We -- We met them while we were in Auschwitz standing in line, we were supposed to be forming lines of five, and we were sort of paired off with them, and from then on we kept on being together, until -- until we were going to the same camp, and by accident being put in the same barrack. Then we went to Zazell for work. So just all this -- did everything together, just supporting, looking out for one another.

Q: So then, one of them convinces you to go off with them. Where did you go, what happened next?

A: You mean, after I went to ber -- to Feldifing?

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Yes, we did travel with them. I don't know if it says there, on coal wagons, on freight trains we traveled, because we didn't have any money, who get -- who gets money? Just they gave us some clothing, and food, of course, the English. We did arrive in Feldifing, it was -- the condition -- the conditions were much better there. I can't say anything against the English except that the warmth wasn't forthcoming. They -- A little compassion was less available for us. In the beginning they were shocked, you know, and very much overcome. But later on it seems like, you know -- but on the American zone, there was more the warmth of it. It was like -- you felt more that somebody cares.

Q: How did that -- How could you tell that difference? What -- What sort of incidents would happen, or things did you see that showed the difference between the two?

A: They were more generous if you asked for something, or -- you could see the way they were interested, that there was more compassion forthcoming from them, where over

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 22 there, it was like, very impersonal. That's what it was. Th-They used -- the Americans MP's used to come in into this place -- camp, because Feldifing had formed -- they told them to form their own police force, and administration, [indecipherable] infirmary, and all. A -- There was a vocational school there. So the MP's used to come in with certain information, and they were very friendly towards everybody. It was -- It was really nice.

Q: How long were you there?

A: In Feldifing? We came here in 1951. Actually, we started out in 1949, and never got -- first we ended up in Bremerhaven, at that time -- and by that time, I had a little baby.

Q: Well let's -- let's sort of take this in order.

A: Okay.

Q: Cause again, this is stuff you haven't --

A: Well, you're asking me -- yeah --

Q: I will. This is material that you haven't talked about in your video interview. Let's sort of just take it kind of chronologically.

A: Okay, okay.

Q: If you could tell us approximate, sort of were you moved, and -- and how many months you were in each place, and --

A: Well, I didn't move, we -- we lived til 1949, in Feldifing. The reason we stayed there that long was because we didn't want to go to Poland, and we didn't want to stay in Germany, and we had no relatives any place, so we couldn't go until organization started to sponsor survivors. Then we registered, okay? My sister came right away, and when I

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 23 registered, and was ready to go, okay, we all ended up in Bremerhaven, but when it was time to go on the boat, my baby got sick. So they don't let you on the boat with sick children, and because so many people were -- there was a camp in Bremerhaven -- now I forgot already where this place was called, but we stayed there. I'l] have to remember.

Thinking. So, anyway, so many people together, and a lot of them had babies already, and a lot of children were sick with all these diseases that children get. And my child happened to get every disease that were possible to be there. I never could go on a boat.

Every time I had to go on a boat, she was sick, you know? By the time I was able to, and then my visa run out, my luck was, that up to this point, the visas were renewed automatically. When my turn came, they said they don't do that any more, you have to go back to the point where we came from, and this is why we ended up again being in Feldifing, going back to the whole rigamarong again, all over. So --

Q: Before you did come over here, where did you meet your husband?

A: In Feldifing. Because we were also just walking around, looking for a relative, or a friend, and we didn't find anyone. We didn't find anyone, and he was also -- he was from a family of six children, he was the only one. So everyone looked for -- not finding a relative, everybody looked for companionship, for someone to lean on. It wasn't a storybook romances, it was people needing one another, that's what it was.

Q: What was his name, and where was he from?

A: My husband's name is Antrul, and he comes from Lodz, he is originally from Lodz, yes.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 24

Q: Do you remember in the camp, where you first encountered him, your first conversation, or -- how did you get to know each other?

A: Well, just meeting, just saying hi, where are you from? You know? And we lived in Feldifing, in a little room, it was down -- actually, it was called the basement. There were bunkbeds, and the four of us lived there. We were still together. So, my friend that was looking for Finkelstein, he used to come down there, and he used to bring some friends along, and this is where we met, there were also, like places -- you know, the Americans organized dance halls, they wanted people to have some fun. They also brought movies into the camp, and we had traveling survivor's orchestras giving concerts. So there was like getting -- public getting together, and where are you from, asking where are you from, who are you, and this is the way people met.

Q: And how long was it before you and your eventual husband decided to get married?

A: It wasn't very long. Maybe several months. There were no long courtships at that time.

Q: And you got married in the camp?

A: Yes, mm-hm.

Q: What kind of ceremony did you have?

A: Well, first we registered with the shtandersump in Germany, in -- in th-this little place called Shtarenberg, and then we just had a religious ceren -- ceremony in a Hasidic rabbi's study. We couldn't afford anything, we had no money. We had witnesses, I have

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 25 a ketuba, a religious one. I went according to -- I would be accepted in Israel now, because I went to all these ceremonies that were asked of me.

Q: Mm-hm. And then, did you and your husband then get your own room in the camp, or how did that work?

A: Well, that didn't work that way, because there wasn't enough room in the camps. It was like one big room, and somehow, they gave us some boards, and divide it into a wall, and on the other side another couple lived, and on this side, we lived. And this is the way it worked. You could hear every sneeze, and ya -- every word that was going on, but there was no other way, until we could figure out where we wanted to go.

Q: Not much of a honeymoon, I guess, huh?

A: No.

Q: What -- So once you were mar -- what year did you get married in?

A: 46.

Q: What month, do you remember?

A: May.

Q: So May of 46, so about a year after the war ended.

A: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

Q: And then once you were married, how long did it take you to figure out what to do next? What -- What discussions did you have about where you might go, and where you might pick up your life?

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 26

A: We didn't, because we didn't, but my husband went and enlisted with this police force there, the displaced camp police force. And I went and registered into the vocational school, and I took a course in sewing. So, for the time being, me and my other friend, the one that died, we both took the course in sewing, and we both took on, later on, alterations for other people, for which we got -- used to get fruit, or money, or whatever, you know, to have something. And my husband, after awhile they used to get some German marks from the German government, like from the state where we were, Bavarian state, they used to get some German marks, because they sort of were on a pilung of a police department, or whatever they called it, after awhile. And in the beginning, there was no -- no talk of anything, because we still tried to figure out where are we, what do we supposed to be doing? Then later on, of course no one wanted to stay.

People had relatives overseas, they sent papers for them, and this is what made us think what are -- what is going to be our future? What are we going to do? We did -- We didn't see any way out. Finally, this came. It was just like a -- winning a lottery when we were told we could register to the united -- to go to the United States, or Canada, or Australia. I really thought that wasn't true. I di -- I didn't -- I always was the pessimist.

Q: You don't seem pessimistic.

A: Ah, well. But I really was, in the beginning. My sister, she was always the first one.

That's why, she registered first, and she -- she just came first, right away. Even if I would have left in 1949, she left before me, yeah.

Q: Did you and your husband ever talk about possibly going to Israel?

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 27

A: We did in the beginning, but I don't think I would have been very good material, because I wasn't a strong person. I wanted to have a child, because everybody got killed, okay? So, after my daughter was born, I was three and a half months in the hospital. I was the one that they thought would never survive. I was deadly sick after she was born.

And so, when I finally recovered, the doctor said to me, ""No more children, cause you didn't recover like other people." I didn't think I could s -- take the illegal journey, first it was Palestine, that I could take that. And now, finally that I got my life together, I wanted to live for something. And then I thought, let's go first to the United States, where I can take a deep breath, relax, and maybe recover my strength. I can always go to Israel. But you know, once you are settled somewhere, and your children are here, it's very hard to pick up and go again.

Q: What year was your first child born?

A: Pardon?

Q: What year was she born, your child?

A: My older daughter was born in 1949, my younger daughter in 1955.

Q: And their names are?

A: My older daughter's name is Marta, and my younger daughter's name is Sally.

Q: And you said you wanted to have children because so many people had died?

A: Well, I still would want children, regardless. I would have had more, not only two, but I -- I even th -- with the second one, it was very hard here in the United States, and I just - - I didn't think I would be able to do that. So, had to settle for that.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 28

Q: Mm-hm. But you did say earlier you wanted children --

A: Yes.

Q: -- because so many people had --

A: That's true, too. That is true, too. But under normal circumstances, I would have want children anyway.

Q: Right. I understand that, I'm just curious what those thoughts were. What was your thinking abo -- on that subject?

A: Well, Jewish thinking is always, you have to have a namesake, you have to have someone to remember. And children are always named after departed ones. So that's -- My oldest daughter's name, Marta's actually Matel, it's after my mother. And my Sally is after my grandmother.

Q: You said that when you had your children, especially your first one, it was very difficult --

A: Very.

Q: -- you were very sick. I'm wondering what -- I mean, it's always an incredibly emotional time when, you know, someone has a child.

A: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

Q: I'm wondering if there were a whole extra set of emotions because this was right after the Holocaust.

A: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

Q: So many Jews were dead.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 29

A: Mm-hm.

Q: And if there were a lot of extra emotions, is -- can you describe what those were?

A: They ver -- very sort of anxious emotions, because she was also sickly child, because I was not in perfect health, and I always watched her and carried her to the doctor, and I put her -- I didn't have a bed, she slept in her buggy, or whatever. And I sat -- half the nights, I used to sit by that buggy and watch her, and when she moved her fingers, or moved her head, I considered, oh what a miracle, this is mine, you know, my own, no one can ever take this away from me. And it was -- most of the time when I looked at her, I cried. It was a miracle to me.

Q: Did you see having children somehow, as you know, being a small part in, sort of, so many Jews had been taken from the earth, and sort of helping to bring them back?

A: Maybe, in a way, I would say that the Jewish people do not disappear completely, and well, just for myself, I wanted, as a parent, to have a child. And it was, for me, to love and to have, and we always had good -- a good relationship with our children, and still do.

Q: So, let's go back to you were -- you were talking about the process of coming to the United States.

A: Yes. So, we registered, and like I said, we were in Bremerhaven, and we had to go back. We had to go ba -- go -- go to the same commission. We had to go and have chest x-rays, and all that stuff done again, and we had to travel from Feldifing into Munich, and a place called the Funkazerner. Now, Funkazer-kazerner means soldier's place, you

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 30 know, where soldiers must have been housed at one time or another. This is where they had their -- all the in -- and we had to go -- would you believe, we all had to go through a very true screening. They had to make sure that we were who we were, and we were in the concentration camps. Somehow they couldn't find my husband's background, so he had to travel in Germany, to this place called Arelson, and bring the papers from there, ca -- so they ma -- make sure that he is who he is. It was so ironical, now that I think of it, how many Nazis went through, that had no problems at all, and us, the survivors, they made so many problems, trying to -- and one time, the second time when we went for a hearing before the INS, they were called, he asked me where I worked, you know? I said, in ha -- all the questions where I di -- wa -- the most work. I said, "In Hamburg." "Whereabouts in Hamburg?" See? And when I told him, he says, "Oh, yeah, I know the place, I was there." He tried to catch me, if I'm saying something wrong. That really hurt.

Q: These were American officials?

A: Yes, yes. And my husband was held back quite a few times, because he was a policeman in the displaced camp, and at that time, the sentiment against the Communists were very strong, and there was organiz -- Jewish organization called the Bundt, which was more left, you know. And they had -- in May they had a May day parade, and because he has a -- was a policeman, they assumed he knows who these people were, and he should give them names of those Bundists. My husband said, "I don't know anybody." He came home and told me that, after he was through. I said, "Even if you knew, you shouldn't give them any names, because who wants to have a person that squeals, one on

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 31 another. He didn't know. You know, they had 24 hour duty. After he came home from duty, he slept most of the time, because he was tired. He was not in any social integration there, no one was. We always tried to see where we -- what we wanted to do. So, he had no political interest, neither did I at that time. Of course, our sympathies were -- were with Israel, at that time Palestine, but none of us were inclined to be Communist, or left, or whatever it was. So it took several times he called them back, making him tell him who they were.

Q: What was it like when you would -- you mentioned your husband had to go to another German town to get papers, and -- what was it like when you would be sort of circulating now in Germany? What was the -- What was that like? What feelings did you have about that?

A: You mean when I go back to Germany?

Q: No, I -- I mean at the time, back then, when you would --

A: You mean --

Q: -- go into German cities, or have contact with Germans?

A: Well, we didn't have much contact with them, and the ones that tried to be in touch with us, of course, didn't know anything about it, what -- what was happening, none of them ever did. They were already --

Q: Yo-You're smiling as you say this.

A: -- very innocent, they were very innocent, none of them knew anything, so -- but they came in to the displaced camp, the women, and they tried to do our laundry, because

ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 32 there were no facilities, just for something to eat, because we used to get all these CARE packages. The Americans were very good to us, they gave us many CARE packages, but then every CARE package, there was so much of the same thing, that they couldn't possibly consume this. So we always exchanged it for something else that we needed.

And this is what happens. So you had no oth -- other choice but to deal with the local population on that level.

Q: And it sounds like it might have been kind of strained.

A: It -- It -- It was, it was, yes.

Q: Well let's -- let's pick up this story again, where you're -- you're trying to get to United States, so you go through the application process --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- and eventually you do get to come.

A: Eventually, because when we came again to be interviewed, there was this lady, the secretary, and she was marry -- married to a Polish guy, to a real Polish guy, and I got to talk to her, and then I said to her, what was happening. And she got really upset. She went into this interviewer, and said to him, "It's strange that these poor people are being held back, and you know they have nothing, they're poor, and they're survivors .All they want to do is get out of here, and you holding them back, and you let go any Tom, Dick and Harry which is not Jewish, you letting them go." He sat there and thought about it, and then my husband came in, he did apologize to him, my husband told me. He said, "I'm sorry to cause you all this heartache. On the next transport you bil -- you'll be the

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 33 first one on the list," and sure enough, you were, and this is where we went, to Bremerhaven. And you know what happened? The day we were going to go -- before the -- the date that we were going on the boat, they checked the children, agenamy -- again, and my daughter had a temperature. Could you believe that? I sat up all night and cried, and gave her aspirins, and in the morning they checked her again. Well, the temperature had gone, so they let me go on t-the boat. And let me tell you, all 10 days we traveled, on stormy seas, I thought I'd never survive that. I'm never going on another boat again. And then the -- finally pulled in, and New York harbor, it quiet down, you know? And then my husband -- of course we were not together, we traveled on a military boat, so the men were separate, and the women were separate, and because I had a small baby, I was privileged to have a cabin with another woman, separate, private. So, he came into the cabin, and if it wouldn't be for him, I think my child would die of s-starvation, cause I couldn't lift my head from that bunk. So he came in, and he said, "Oh, it's so quiet now." We have to come out on deck and see what was going on. If you -- I went out, and it was the most gorgeous sight I've seen. It was at dawn, you know, it's still dark outside. I could see the lit up harbor, and the first thing, bright, and white lit up, was the Statue of Liberty. That was so gorgeous, Ill never forget that.

Q: What month and year was this?

A: We came at the end of April, 1951.

Q: Mm-hm. So you came into the harbor, and --

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 34

A: Of New York. And then we were met by representative, either they were UNRRA, or Joint, I don't know. This is what they call themself for short, I can't really tell you exactly how to say the whole name of them. And they took us to a hotel, we stayed in the hotel for several days to rest up. Actually, they wanted to send us to Trenton, New Jersey, but my sister's destination was in Sheboygan. So she wanted very much for us to be together, and asked the local people here to intervene, so they would send us here. So we came here. So they -- in New York they gave us tickets and put us on a train, and they put us on a passenger -- on a coach passenger train, you know, with a little baby, traveling all overnight, sitting on a bench. She -- I didn't know where to lay her down, she cried all night. And people were sitting, and -- and I didn't know a word of English, or -- or whatever, and I was still very much a timid person out of a camp, looking around, being afraid these people are going to scream at me because my child is crying. You know, I was very much afraid.

Q: As someone who originally comes from New Jersey, I'd have to say I think you're better off that you went to Wisconsin, but -- nobody from New Jersey wants to --

A: [have a friend, my friend that was in camp with me, she lives in Englewood.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Yeah.

Q: Did they tell you why they wanted you to go to Trenton?

A: No. There were certain cities that took so many people in, and I guess they decided I should go to Trenton, that was it. I don't know, but maybe I would have had better

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 35 opportunities. We didn't have a lot of opportunities here. They have a small committee here, they welc-welcomed us, and because my sister was here, they didn't even find us an apartment right away, we had to stay with my sister. They gave my husband a job, and as far as looking for a place, we had to do that ourselves. My husband job didn't earn nothing, you know?

Q: What was it?

A: Just a factory job. Well, we had no education. There was no one here that said, "Well, we'll -- we'll see that you get an education and meanwhile see that you have something to live on." Nobody did this here. So we had to right away go to work, and because his earnings weren't enough, I had to go sometimes and help out. What could I do? There was nothing part time I could do in the evening, just babysit or clean somebody's house, that was it. But then my children got bigger, and I went to work too, full-time, because they were both in school. So I went full-time to work.

Q: What were your -- What was it like being over here, you know, in a different country, different culture?

A: It was very hard, because let me tell you, in those days, people did not provide you with social workers to get you adjusted, in a new country. We did all the adjusting all by ourselves. Soon as we got a job, nobody bothered with us. That was it, you got a job, you're making money, you got to do it on your own. We had people that were very helpful in the places where we worked. They really -- People were kind, telling us how to do -- especially, I met very nice people that said to me, imi -- wa -- I couldn't speak the

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 36 English, and this a big German town, let me tell you. It helped though, in the beginning, that you could speak the language, you know, and communicate. But then we communicated and they said, "If you understand something in English, then say it. We" ll help you." You know? We went for awhile to vocational school. It wasn't a great big help, it wasn't, because when you don't know the language, and people start the grammar, and you don't even know what is a vowel, or a noun, or whatever it is, what good is it to you? I had learned a lot from watching my neighbor's TV, seeing the motions, and the repeat -- repeated words, and I also liked to read a lot. I started reading, I actually didn't know what I was reading, because the pronunciations here are so different. But slowly I got it, and on my own, more on our own, we did it. That's true.

But we needed a vocational school because we could not apply for citizenship if we didn't go to vocational school, and learn about the government, you know?

Q: Mm-hm. Did you and your husband feel like, okay, now we're here, and we're Americans, we want to be Americans?

A: Yes, we did. We applied right away. Soon as we got our first papers, we did register right away. We came in "51, in 1957 we were citizens already. This is -- We wanted to belong, we loved the country, it's wonderful. With all it's faults, it's the best place to be.

All the freedoms a person has, no place to be found.

Q: Do you feel like you have a sort of special perspective on what it's like in this country, given where you came from, and what you lived through?

A: You mean, what's going on now, or --

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 37

Q: Or just in general.

A: Well, I would say I love the freedoms, but sometimes the people abuse the freedoms too much already. They use any excuse to say that you infringe on their freedom. And I think sometimes that people go too far in that respect. And another thing that nobody stops these people, because they say they're entitled to these -- End of Tape One, Side B USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 38 Beginning Tape Two, Side A

Q: -- ocaust Memorial Museum interview with Fela Warschau. This is tape number two, side A.

A: You mean, what's going on now, or --

Q: Or just in general.

A: Well, I would say I love the freedoms, but sometimes the people abuse the freedoms too much already. They use any excuse to say that you infringe on their freedom. And I think sometimes that people go too far in that respect. And another thing that nobody stops these people, because they say they're entitled to these freedoms. It's like being helpless, you know? With all the freedoms, you're still helpless to stop something evil that's going on.

Q: Are you thinking of specific things?

A: All these hate groups. All these things that are -- insults being, or -- or going on public television, or on -- on the internet, online, and broadcasting their hate messages, and nothing can be done about it, you know? Poisoning young people's -- children's minds with such garbage? And children are vulnerable. They just don't go and research, and try to find out what is the truth, they -- they really get taken with something like that.

Q: Does that type of thing remind you of things that happened in Europe before the war?

Were you very conscious then of what was developing in Europe?

A: Well, in Europe, most of the time the Jews had no rights. I would say we were called citizens, but we had no right, we were always second class citizens, as far as I remember.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 39 When I was a child, you could hear em -- being said, Jew, Jew, all the time, you know?

And even my school, I was always good in languages, you know, always got the best grade in Polish language, so our teacher, an educated woman would say to the class, "Aren't you ashamed that this Jew has the best mark in Polish language?" So we were always aware -- always made aware of it, that we were Jews. Ya -- In court, you were not believable, because you were a Jew. If anyone had something against you, you were lost, unless you could bribe the judge, or whatever.

Q: So you were -- It's now, I guess, the 50's, you and your husband are both working, what kind of job did you get?

A: Factory jobs.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: That's all we could do. That's all we were able to do. I could not go work in a office, I didn't have enough understanding of the office work, you see? And you needed the typing, which I didn't have. So, wherever the money was coming from, this is where we went. I ended up working in a place that manufactured plastic things, and we were inspecting all the ready products, making them ready for shipment. So that's what I did for 29 years.

Q: Really?

A: Yup.

Q: Same job?

A: Mm-hm.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 40

Q: What about your husband, did he stay in the same factory, or did he move around some?

A: No, he -- he changed, because thank God, that first factory we b-barely -- we chased the rainbow all the time, very poor hours, very poor pay, but then, thank the lord, they went on strike. That was the turning point. Nobody knew when this was going to end, so I urged him to go and look for a different job, and then he found another job, which was much better. If he had that job in the beginning, I could have gone to school and learned something, but then, by that time, we had children going to school. So we wanted them to go, we did, the both of them went to universities, we saw to that.

Q: What was the second job that your husband had?

A: It was on a -- It's f-- for them -- for a manufacturing machines to package things. You know, like packaging toilet paper, or packaging foodstuff, and all that. They were manufacturing those machines, that's what they were doing.

Q: When -- Once you were here, and had sort of established your life, what sort of social contacts did you have? Did you get to know many Jewish families, how did that work?

A: No, no. Most of the time we were just -- there were a couple of other survivors, we sort of circulated among ourselves, that was it. I was -- I would say I wasn't even invited any place with the local people. I -- I don't know about the others, I just know we weren't. And most of the friends that we made, we were invited, were not even Jewish.

We had a lot of Gentile friends right away in the beginning, helping us a lot. And like when we bought this house here, actually we hardly had any payment, and people helped

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 41 us paint it, and remodel, and do everything, without anything, and those were not Jewish people that helped us.

Q: Why do you think that happened, was it just sort of accidental?

A: [have no idea. I think the people here, themself, weren't that well off before the war.

The war gave them opportunities to better themself, and maybe they were busy themself, trying to get somewhere. They were just so absorbed in their trying to make it, that they had no time for anybody else. That's the only way I can figure.

Q: Hm. [ have a note here, this is from the museum that I -- I guess maybe you mentioned this in wa -- one of your other interviews that you had, most of your friends here were not Jewish, and it says that you said you think that's the way it should be, and they want to know what do you mean by that?

A: That's --

Q: Do you remember that? Saying that?

A: That's the way it should be?

Q: Yeah.

A: I said that. Well, because I think we need to communicate with people other than Jewish people. I had a great need to understand about other religions, and about other places, because in Europe we were completely isolated from that. And I learned a great deal from my friends, they learned a great deal from me. And we you learn to respect one another, because of that, and it doesn't matter what religion they are really, we are always good friends. We do --

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 42

Q: With your friends, your non-Jewish friends --

A: Right.

Q: -- during this period, did they ask you much about what happened to you during the war, did you talk about it much?

A: Some of them did. And some of them said, "Don't talk about it now, it hurts too much.

Maybe later on." And finally, I don't know how -- it started with me talking. Do you want me to talk about that? I don't know, do you?

Q: Sure. Sure, go ahead.

A: Well, there was a time when they were speculating about Dr. Mengele, because he was the one in Auschwitz, doing all the experiments, if he was still alive, and that was in 1985, where that was a big uproar all over the world, trying to figure out where he is, or what's going on. And the local paper here, wanted to write a story tying in some one of the survivors with Mengele. The only one that was in Auschwitz here, was I. So someone directed a newspaper lady to me. She came and interviewed me, and we talked. I did tell her that Mengele met every transport, or, at that time, I wouldn't know who he was. But I'm sure he was there. So she took my life story, she wrote a big article, and she said, "Tt'll be in the paper." Made headlines, you know, it made -- the next day it made headlines, and I started getting phone calls from schools. The first school was in Howard's Grove here, that asked me to come and speak. The teacher -- And I said to her, "T don't feel like coming. I have never spoken in public, and I really -- are you sure you want me to come?" So she said, "Of course." You know, my first presentation was maybe

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 43 10 or 15 minutes. I was shaking in my boots. But from then on, apparently I did something right, because she keeps on asking me to come back every year. From then on I keep on going. And from then on, from word of mouth, other schools, and it gets to be more and more every year. So, that's the way it happens with me going out and speaking.

Q: How often do you do it now?

A: Soon as school starts, I get phone calls, and I would say in an average, about five times a month, for sure. But sometimes it's even more.

Q: These are grammar schools, high schools?

A: Universities, high schools, grammar schools, junior highs, everything. Also church groups, organizations, and civic clubs, all of them. I found many of those.

Q: Are there certain things that -- how do you do it? Do you go in and talk of -- make sure to talk about certain things, do you introduce yourself and take questions, how does - - how do you do it?

A: 1 -- I -- 1 -- I do my presentation, mainly the story of my life. I start out just with a little introduction, and then I talk about myself, and through the liberation. And if it's a school, then I talk to them about life here, and what they have here, how they should -- comparing my life, and how I view the United States when I came here, what we have here, and how appreciative they should be, and really appreciate the life and the schools, and everything they have. And point out all these hate groups to them, try to make them understand that before they commit themself to something like that, they should study, and check out the archives and documents, to make sure what is the truth. I always

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 44 emphasize all these things to them. So, and then there's always a period of questions, of look it up, this picture there, where all these children are? You see that? That was on a school where about 50 of them crowded around, wanted my autograph.

Q: You say make a p -- a presentation, what kinds of things do you tell them about? Do you tell them about being in the camps, and what you saw, and --

A: Right.

Q: -- "m also curious how they react. Have -- Have they heard much of this before, or -- or are they sort of in the dark about this to start with?

A: Well, some of them get -- take a unit in it beforehand, before I come, so they will be -- they have some background on it. Most of them do. And they prepare questions ahead of time, which I -- after I'm through, I do answer questions for those children, and they are - - I get tons of letters from them, and when I read those, I can see that they paid attention, because they quote me sometimes, and telling me how appreciative they are that now that they listened to my story, and that they will never say they're hungry again, or they will never say that they're underprivileged because they don't have certain things, and how lucky they are to live in freedom. Thanking me for coming and telling my story and calling me a hero for surviving, and maybe that was my goal, that I would be able to come and tell people about this, so people finally realize that we -- we should not hate one another. This is the most important thing I tell them, that hate is a terrible thing.

Q: When you talk to them about what happened, do they seem very shocked? Do -- Do they ever have trouble believing that this type of thing actually happens, or --

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 45

A: Some of them say, "Until you came, it was hard for me to believe, but you're a living witness to it, so it must be true." Because what reason, or what would I get out of it, coming here and telling a story like that? So they say, "We are very much convinced now." Doubters, you know? And I think what makes me feel good is those responses, and what makes me more feel good is that after walking somewhere in the street, or walking into a store, when a person comes over and says, I heard you speak five years ago in this school, and she still can recognize my face, and remembers what I said, that's the biggest reward a person can get.

Q: So do some of the students actually say to you, I did have doubts that the Holocaust happened, or --

A: Not very many. Very seldom someone will say that, yes.

Q: How does it come up? Do they say that they looked into it and wondered if it happened, or -- I'm just curious where this sort of line of thought comes from.

A: Some of them say, "I have a friend that says that's not true, it never happened. But you're here, you told me that. I can see it's true." So.

Q: Mm-hm. Let's go back to sort of your -- your family history again.

A: Okay.

Q: You're here, your husband is working, you're working. Your kids are going to school.

A: Yes.

Q: Eventually they went to college, where did they go?

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 46

A: My older daughter went to the University of Madison, and my younger daughter went to Milwaukee.

Q: And where are they today?

A: Both are in New York City.

Q: What do they do?

A: Well, I tell you, my older daughter graduated in social work. She did that for a couple of years and decided it was too heartbreaking, and too hard. She did not want that. So she went back, took some classes, and went into insurance and investment, and she's doing very good. My younger daughter works in a law firm.

Q: What -- What was it like when they were growing up, regarding the fact that you and your husband were Holocaust survivors? How much did you talk about it with your children, and how did you handle that whole situation?

A: Well, I did not tell them a lot when they were much younger. The only thing that I always instilled in them, that we are all people, and it doesn't matter who we are, everybody is a friend, if they're nice people. And they were like that, they made easy friends with non-Gentiles, and gen -- and -- and Jewish people. My kids had tons of friends coming to this place. They had a bedroom, very little room, because this is what we could afford, and the room was small, it -- as a matter of fact, it had bunk beds, because I couldn't fit in two beds. But they always had friends, and some of e-even slept over, in their place -- in that jammed place, because they liked to be with them. So it was

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 47 always happy, and full of kids around here, when they were growing up. I wa -- I was happy, too, believe me. Once they left, it was very traumatic to get adjusted.

Q: What -- When did you start talking to them about what happened? How did you and your husband talk about it, about what happened to you during the war?

A: Well, we just tried to tell them that -- we had to tell them, you know, because they used to ask about grandparents, other relatives. So this is what came out. That's what we had to tell them.

Q: They would ask where their relatives were, or why they didn't have them?

A: Of course. Why do -- Why don't they have a grandma? Why don't they have a-aunt -- more aunts, just one aunt, and one uncle, where other children they associate with have big families, and cousins a lot, and so you have to tell them. Not when they were real little, they wouldn't understand that.

Q: Around what age did you start talking about?

A: I would say by the time they were 10, or something like that. Still not everything. 10 year old child still isn't able to comprehend everything.

Q: As the years went on, and they got older, did they continue to be curious about it, did they ask you to tell them?

A: They did, but when I sometimes expressed fear, they always said, "Oh Mom, you're living in the United States, don't worry about anything here." They felt very secure here.

First of all, my older daughter, she was a little baby when we came, and my other daughter was born here, so she never knew about, you know, being -- bu -- she -- the

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 48 other one didn't know either. She only said in the beginning, "Oh my God, I'm a German citizen, how terrible." Because she was born there.

Q: What about you yourself, when it would come up? Did -- Would you prefer not to think about it, or not to be reminded of it?

A: Well, in the beginning, none of us really wanted to talk a lot about it, because it brought a lot of heartache. It still does. It -- That will never go away, as long as we will live, never. Beca -- It's hard to reconcile yourself that the war starts, and you're a 13 year old girl, and the war ends, and you're an adult on your own, and there's no one to turn to for advice, what to do, how -- what to do with your life, or how to -- to associate with people, or whatever. So it's very hard. My young years are gone, from childhood into adulthood. It's -- It -- It is -- A lot of the people can't understand that, what we missed out on.

Q: Do you ever have dreams about the war?

A: Oh, yes, lot of them. Lot of dreams.

Q: Do you remember certain ones, or --

A: Sometimes I dream I'm there. And it's not like I'm in a camp, but I'm trying to hide.

They're coming, I'm trying to hide, and every time I'm hiding, I know they coming near to find me, and I'm running, trying to find a different hiding place. And I'm running that far, one time I was running so fast I woke up, my heart was beating so fast, I could hardly catch my breath. This is what woke me up. There's many other dreams, yeah.

Q: Do you still have dreams today, about --

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 49

A: Once in awhile, yes. Mm-hm.

Q: Do you think that -- obviously, you know, in many ways it's a good experience, do you think that it's been a good thing that you've become a bit of a public speaker about the Holocaust? Has that helped you in any way, sort of sort things out, or deal with it?

A: Well, La -- I'm very gratified that I do something good, I think I'm doing something -- bringing a little understanding to children, and some adults. And believe me, some 0 -- some of the adults, which I'm very shocked, until I come, say they never heard of it.

Would you believe that? I had one college girl come over and say she never heard of the Holocaust until I came and spoke there. This is gratifying, very much so, and another thing, I think is -- when you speak about it, it's just like therapy, talking it out. At -- It feels like I'm talking my heartache out, and after that it makes me feel I'm a little more calm, because of that. It gives me a better feeling, trying to make people understand what was it like.

Q: Do you read much about the Holocaust, and what about films, and documentaries, and that sort of thing?

A: [have tons of books on that subject, and documentaries, I have several. Also, I went to see "Schindler's List," of course, and there's a lando -- on PBS, there's a lot of documentaries. I try to watch, but sometimes I don't any more, because I get very bad dreams, and sometimes I| can't fall asleep any more. You know, the older you get, and because we are retired, our minds are more activated towards these happenings. And

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 50 especially something like that, it triggers so much, that you can't sleep, or when you fall asleep, there are many nightmares.

Q: Do you -- Do you feel that what you lived through, and what you saw, had any great affect on how -- you know, it's a big question, I guess, maybe it's too big, but how you see the world, or -- or how you see other human beings, or just humanity in general. Do you think that you saw things one way before the war, and it was drastically different afterward, or what -- what's that been like for you?

A: Well, as a Jewish person, before the war, I knew -- like I said, I knew I wasn't equal to the others, because I wasn't treated that way, but I always felt I was, in myself. It wa -- It was instilled into me by my parents, that we are good people, and we did not do anything wrong, it's just too bad that other people can't recognize that. But when I came here, I rejoiced in all this freedom, I also look very cautiously on everything, because of the things that I went through. I'm always a little skeptical, and afraid. I'm still afraid, because of what's happening with -- with this mushrooming groups of hate, what is going to happen? And if they wouldn't someday prevail. This is what bothers me a lot.

Q: imagine you've returned to Europe.

A: I was, mm-hm.

Q: How often have you gone? Have you gone to Germany?

A: I -- We went -- The first time I went back to Poland in 1978, and my hometown, there was one Jew there, of all the people. And there was no cemetery any more, just all the stones, just -- they were made on a sidewalk, you know? And after awhile, they were

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 51 taken out. This Jew asked the Polish government after the war, so he went, and they just laid there, pilots of rubble, you don't know where they belong. I wanted to go there because my grandpa was the only one that died natural death, and I wanted to see his grave, but I couldn't see anything. And I did travel to Poland, I -- I went back to Auschwitz, I went back there.

Q: This was in 1978?

A: Eight. It was -- It was very hard to do that, but that's -- that's from -- where I lef -- lost my whole family. I wanted to go and say a prayer for them, I wanted to do that. Yes, that's what I did.

Q: What must have -- What was it like to walk into that camp again?

A: Very bad, thinking that I'm back in it, you know? The first thought was, is it really -- am I really walking here as a free person? It was a eerie feeling, yes.

Q: Was your husband with you?

A: No, not the first time, he didn't want to go, mm-mm.

Q: When you went to your hometown in Poland, did you see any of the houses, or buildings you remember, places where your family --

A: Oh, sure.

Q: -- used to live, that were still there?

A: Oh, sure. The marketplace there, the house where -- the place where we lived is there.

I couldn't get in, because the people that lived there were working, it was locked, you know. And later on, or even if they were, they were afraid to open the doors. They

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 52 thought maybe I came for something. But it's there, the building is there, I saw it. I walked around the streets, I walked around where my school was, in the neighborhood, all -- all of it, everything's there, just like I left it. I always say, the little town of Ozercuv without the Jews, is just like a piece in the Twilight zone, for -- it's teeming with life, you walk out a minute on the street, and come back, a-and it's dead, nobody is there. And this is the way it's -- did strike me, at that time.

Q: So it actually had not changed much --

A: No --

Q: Since the war, or it has?

A: I would say they improved a little bit, the -- the roads, the s -- the buildings, they renovated some of that. But otherwise, it's --

Q: That's -- That's fine. The cat is investigating. But you're saying otherwise it's what?

A: Otherwise it's the same, it's exactly the same. Life goes on without the Jews, you know? It was teeming with Jewish people before the war. There was a lot of industry.

The biggest factory of textiles was owned by a Jewish man, and several -- quite a few hundred people, Gentiles, all of them were working there and making a living of that.

Now the factory belongs to the government. It's still there, so --

Q: How do you feel about Poland and Germany, and Poles and Jews in general?

A: Well, I feel like that they say they suffered, it's true. Polish people were also exterminated, but they were not exterminated, some of them, for the same reason, not because they wanted to exterminate a race. They did it because they were afraid of

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 53 uprisings. Th-They did it to political people, and whatever they -- like I always hear homosexuals, or whoever went, they're going against them. That's why they did it to the Polish people, the intelligentsia, that they shouldn't be sort of wising up the loc -- the population to revolts. Those they exterminated. But especially for the reason, just to wipe out a race, they didn't do this to the Polish people like they did to the Jewish people. So, what I would have to say, that -- in the respect, they didn't lose what we lost. They still have a country, where we got to be people without homes, no place to go.

Q: What about Germany? Other people I've interviewed, who went through the Holocaust, either avoid it all together, or if they are there, they -- they get out as quickly as they can. They don't -- you know --

A: I wasn't in Germany last time when I was there. I felt that I didn't want to go and see the country, because I always felt bitter about this big martial plan, where I said, we sat in the displaced camps, with nowhere to go, and here all these millions are being poured back in the perpetrator of all these atrocities, making them prosperous, where they sat home, in their own homes. They lost people in the war, they lost homes, of course.

People got killed in the bombings, but they did it to themself, they have no one else to blame for it. Still they had a country, they had homes, they had mothers, they had fathers.

And here we were helping them back, to get back to wealth, and here, we that lost everything. And they shed our blood. We are sitting in Germany, in displaced camps, with nowhere to go. I felt very, very bitter about that.

Q: When -- You mentioned that your husband did go with you to Europe later on?

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 54

A: He -- Yes, he did, later on, he -- we went three years ago, we went. And then that time I did go into Germany, because I wanted to see the displaced camp where we lived for so many years, after the war. That's the only reason I went in there. Otherwise, I had no -- I have no business in Germany.

Q: So you and your husband went to the camp together -- went back?

A: We went back to the camp together, yes, mm-hm. And we traveled. We did go back to Poland again. He wanted to go back to Lodz, where he lived. There was a little street, a little side street, in that big city, the whole street was demolished, there was nothing there but the empty lot. He was just so traumatized when he saw that.

End of Tape Two, Side A Beginning Tape Two, Side B

Q: This is a continuation of a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Fela Warschau. This is tape number two, side B. -- later on?

A: Yes, he did, later on, we -- we went three years ago, we went. And then, that time, I did go into Germany, because I wanted to see the displaced camp where we lived for so many years, after the war. That's the only reason I went in there. Otherwise, I had no -- I have no business in Germany.

Q: So you and your husband went to the camp together -- went back?

A: We went back to the camp together, yes, mm-hm. And we traveled. We did go back to Poland again. He wanted to go back to Lodz, where he lived. There was a little street, a little side street, in that big city, the whole street was demolished, there was nothing there

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 55 but the empty lot. He was just so traumatized when he saw that. And of course, we traveled -- since we were there, we went to law -- to Warsaw, we looked at the Warsaw ghetto buildings, and all the historical places.

Q: Sounds like it was a very emotional trip for both of you.

A: It was. I don't intend to go back there again. I don't think I could take that.

Q: Yeah. I'm curious what your reaction is. You know, we're doing this interview, right now there is a supposed peace plan in Kosovo, but for the last, you know, few months especially --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: The Albanians were driven out of Kosovo --

A: Right.

Q: -- and there have been a lot of references back to what happened in World War Two, by commentators, and politicians, or whatever. And when things like this happen in the world, or especially a story like that, in -- in -- in Europe, I'm curious how you've been feeling while this has been in the news, and what your reaction has been.

A: Come on, anyone that compares this to a Holocaust doesn't think straight, because Kosovo, those two factions, are people that have their land, and each one is fighting for possession and power. They fighting each other, right, and it's -- they're shedding blood, which is unnecessary. Things could have been resolved peacefully, but people are too hateful, okay. I am very upset about children and people being killed, but don't ever compare this to the Holocaust. The Jews had no country, we did not start a war with --

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 56 start a war with Hitler. We were citizens of each country that we lived in, and this is -- we tried to live peacefully, we had nothing against anyone. We were simply killed, and tried to be exterminated, because we were Jews, simply. The goal -- Hitler's goal was to exterminate the Jewish race. We were not fighting for property, or for a country. We did not have a country. Kosovo, and the Serbs, they have countries, right? They lived side by side each other, and each one wanted to dominate, and this is what started it. They fought one another, okay? And they -- Whatever happened there, it's their own fault. They brought it upon themself, I feel sorry for all the people, for the -- like I said, for the little children -- innocent children -- innocent people being killed. When I see that, I get very upset, because it does remind me of World War Two, and of the killings, but you can never compare it to the Holocaust, never.

Q: What about the argument that some people have made that of course this isn't like the Holocaust, but if countries had acted when whole populations were being persecuted in the past, then a lot could have be-been avoided. And this whole notion that now, you know, something should be done, and it shouldn't be permitted, do you -- what about that argument?

A: I think that -- I-I'm all for helping, I'm all for helping, because I remember how helpless we were. We looked towards England, and towards the United States, thinking any minute that they will come in, and it will be done swiftly, and that we would not have to suffer all this. But you see, the problem was that Hitler was bluffing, and the world was afraid, and they let them get away with everything. And he got so big and strong

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 57 because -- and it was all the other countries" fault that they let them get that far.

Everybody stood by and let them just do it. Nobody interfered. This is what I'm trying to say. If they would interfere right away, so much bloodshed would not have happened.

That's what I'm trying -- we have to see, we have to interfere. Of course, I don't go much for Americans being killed over there. It's a big tragedy. But I think we have created the United Nations, all the countries together, should see to it that there should not be any wars, and any bloodshed. They should interfere.

Q: Mm-hm. Does -- Were you very -- Before the war, were you and your family very religious?

A: Yes, we were. Very Orthodox.

Q: Mm-hm. And, are you still, or --

A: I'm not, I'm more Conservative now, because there is no other way, especially here.

Well, I mean, I keep kosher in the house. When we go out, there is no kosher restaurants here. So we just try to eat whatever possible we can. But as far as that, I try to observe the Sabbath. We go to Temple, we belong to the Temple. I also have been a member of the Sisterhood of the Hadassah. I have been -- I have been the past five years the president of the Hadassah, also. And I have been involved in my children's -- I used to be a 4H leader once, for my younger daughter. In -- And all the other things. The Girl Scouts, and everything, whatever possibly I could.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 58

Q: One thing I wonder about it, you know, given what you went through during the war, what you saw happen, what you experienced first-hand, did that -- how did that affect, or did it affect your notion of God?

A: Well, after I was liberated, didn't affect me anything. I just didn't believe in anything.

I couldn't figure out a merciful God looking down could let all of this happens. And if He has a hand in all this, He's the ruler, and make things happen, why did He let all this happen? I couldn't cons -- justify that, and I couldn't understand. And I -- My doubts were, is there a God? If He was there, why did He let that happen? Very much, I was very angry at God, let me tell you.

Q: And then, what's happened since then? Do you still feel the same way?

A: You sort of -- You have to have something to believe in, otherwise there's -- there's nothing to live for. I -- I think you have to. And it's not that I justify what happened, but then you start thinking, and you think there have to be some powers above, that are still ruling this world, and why this happened, I will never know. So there -- there's so much mystery in this world, and a person has to believe in something.

Q: So, do you feel like you stopped being angry at God?

A: Slowly.

Q: But there's no great answer. I mean, I guess what I'm wondering, do you think, in what happened, was there some meaning in this, or it was just this incredible outburst of evil, and it doesn't mean anything, or --

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 59

A: 1-- I still can't figure out why it happened. The rabbi's explanation is that God created us with two wills, one good, and one bad, and it's up to you which way we go, okay? So, but why did the bad got the upper hand, I can't figure that out.

Q: Just to go back during, you know, all the years you -- you lived here, and you're raising a family, --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- and you know, solid citizen of Sheboygan, Wisconsin, and all that, any other -- any stories that you want to tell, or any incidents, or things you remember, or -- or stuff you felt at the time that somehow hasn't come up in our conversation, that you think is worth mentioning?

A: Incidents about what?

Q: Anything.

A: | -- I think most of the time, I encountered good people, and through my traveling, I met a lot of people that stick to me, and are friends. We're in touch, they come and visit me, they invite me to their homes. And I'm very happy about that, most of them are schoolteachers, and all these other people that -- and when I say -- sometimes make comment that I'm amazed, you know, educated people like that, they really want to be my friends, and they answer me, in a ways, you are more educated than we are. So, I feel very humble, you know, that -- when they tell me that. And I -- The only regret may be living in a small town. Right now, I don't, because we retired, but when I was younger, I figured, if we would have been in a larger city, maybe we would have had a better

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 60 opportunity to better ourselves financially, because in bigger cities, there were larger committees, and there were other ways the newcomers were treated. So, I don't know, maybe we would have been better off. But then, you don't know the language, and you don't -- you don't have money to move around, you just stay where you are. And once you're settled, it's hard to move.

Q: Mm-hm. I think in one of your video interviews, you mentioned that before you came here -- they have a little quote here, that you said that you had heard wonderful things about the United States.

A: Oh, yes.

Q: And we'd like to know, what had you heard?

A: My mother used to tell about inventions, people discovered this, or that, or made some gadgets, you know how they work. And my father was always busy working, because in Poland we had to work many hours to make a living, you know? So he had no time to read the paper, and my mom used to sit next to him while he was working, and read the paper to him loud. And then when she read about something like that, she should -- used to shake her head, and said, "Only in the United States, things like that could happen.

This must be some wonderful place." You know? And lada -- some of the people that immigrated before the war had relatives sending back letters, and telling him all about the buildings here, and all the things, what was happening. So she always thought it was a wonderful place to be, and I was very much impressed by it, and that was always in my

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 61 mind, what she said. When we had a choice of going places, I always wanted to come here.

Q: So, partly because of what she had --

A: What my mother used to read, and there were all these positive things about what she had said.

Q: Mm-hm. And then, when -- in the first few years you were here, do you think that the United States lived up to the advance billing, or not?

A: Oh, I would say very much so, because you know, we lived on a little place, where everything was primitive. There wasn't running water, there were no flush toilets, there was nothing. And I came here, and saw all that you could have, you know, refrigerators, you know, and gas stoves. There was never anything like that when I was a little girl.

Running water in the house, a -- a -- a bathroom, and bathtub in the house, where we had a big tub, you know, all the time. So, I thought it was wonderful, oh. And even now, when I sit in my dreams, such foolish things, I try to imagine I'm talking to my mother, that she's sitting next to me, and I'm saying to her, "Look Mom, how wonderful. All you have to do is press a button, and your clothes gets washed. Can you see all these wonderful things that are here?" It's just my mind always thinks back, and I'm trying to carry on a conversation with her, in my mind.

Q: What's the cat's name?

A: Sasha.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 62

Q: She had something -- She -- She -- She wants to add something to the conversation, I think.

A: No, he -- he wants to go in there, I think my husband's in there.

Q: Oh, okay. Well, I think we'll be done in a -- in a minute or two.

A: Pardon?

Q: I think we'll be done in a minute or two.

A: That's fine, no problem. He's very nosy, he likes to investigate things. See?

Q: Yeah. Now, he's checking out my tape recorder. So, you say you have dreams where you're actually -- you're showing things to your mother?

A: [""m carrying on a conversation with my mother, or even with my father, yeah.

Q: Yeah. So, when you came here, you loved it, there were all these amazing sort of material things.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: But was there -- was there anything you missed, is there stuff that -- or some aspect of life that -- that you had in Europe, that you feel is -- doesn't exist so much here, or anything like that?

A: Well, I would say, in the beginning maybe not, because the closeness with the families was always there, even in -- and the other people's lives here. People were much closer in families than they are now. Children and parents were together, things were done together, and I was always invited to people's homes, and to dinners, and stuff like that.

Everybody sat down at the table, the children were there, our children were there. And s -

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 63 - S -- conversing afterwards. So it was like ri -- somehow, the family that we didn't have, it was compensating very much. The only hard time was when it came to our holidays.

So, it was very hard to take, because you sat at the table, and you thought of the wonderful times you had at home, surrounded by everybody, and by all the tradition. And all of a sudden, all of this is gone, and that's what it is, hard facts of life.

Q: Mm-hm. Is there anything else that we haven't talked about, that you'd like to talk about?

A: You know, off-hand, I can't think of it, but probably by the time you're gone, I would say I should have said this, or I should have said that, and that's what probably will happen. I just -- I don't know. I know one thing, when we get old, we survivors who think time is running too fast for us, we try to do so much more, to be -- that it should be left behind. You -- You know, my two daughters never got married, I don't have any grandchildren, it's hard to take this. They just elected to be career women. Yeah, I would like to have some grandchildren, somebody left to remember everything, but then I compensate myself at the mind that all of this is recorded, and some people will know about it anyway. So this -- I think this is a very good thing that is happening to me. And many schools also tape me, and they have that on their files. And I go, for the fourth time, I went to Milwaukee, to Marquette University. And they always tape it, they considered this a lecture. And every year, when I come, they make a tape of whatever I say, and they file in their files there, so that -- that's something that I think is very good.

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Q: You know, it -- it has been so many years, and the people who did the live through it, who are still alive, obviously are not going to be around forever.

A: Of course.

Q: You mentioned earlier when we were talking, that you've always still -- and your children used to try to reassure you about it, been a little apprehensive about what could happen, what --

A: Yes.

Q: -- you know, somehow something similar happening -- happening in the future. I'm wondering if -- what your feelings are also about once all the people who actually lived through this --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- are gone, and whether the memory will persist, or will it be forgotten?

A: I think maybe for awhile it will persist, but I'm afraid with time, it might just be something in the archives that now and then, someone will look it up for some reference.

This is the way it probably will be, sadly. I say that very sadly. In the beginning, maybe, the first several years after we are gone, it will be still carried on, but later on, I don't know. That's what I think will happen.

Q: Is that something you worry about, or --

A: Yes, I think it's very important it should be remembered, and I do worry about that, but I -- it's beyond me, you know? Once we gone, we gone, there's nothing we can do about it.

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Q: Mm-hm. You know, it see -- just seems that in my own lifetime, that -- you know, I was born in the early 50's.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: And it seems to me that it's really been in the last, say 20 years or so, there has been much more talk, much more sort of public stuff, more movies.

A: That's true.

Q: Things like the Holocaust Museum being established, and all that it --

A: Right, yeah.

Q: -- that actually -- you know, as a kid, I learned about it in history class.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: And actually, you know, I was raised Catholic, but we discussed it in religion class.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: But other than that, you know, just in the general culture --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: I would say until ab -- you know, roughly about 20 years ago, there wasn't a tremendous amount about it, and then --

A: That's true. That it very true. I-I tell you why, because the initiative has no -- had not been taken by Jewish leaders here. We, the survivors alone tried to organize these things.

You see, the survivors themself, organize the Yom HaShoah day. It wasn't national like it was now, but I remember from early days on, we used to go to Milwaukee, and all -- all of us survivors get together somewhere, and observe Yom HaShoah day, but later on,

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0044 66 when it got to be more popular, then local officials joined, and it got to be on -- ona wider scale, and this is the way it happened. But we, the survivors, started that ourselves.

Of course, we didn't have all this power to get it on such a large scale. The Holocaust Museum did a lot to -- too, you know, to make this happened.

Q: Mm-hm. So really, it was the survivors here that --

A: Yes, mm-hm. Locally here, we hardly did anything, if we the few survivors didn't take the initiative to do something, but now, for two years, they are having like ca -- sending out letters to the schools here, and they should write a theme on why the Holocaust should be remembered, and they reward them with prizes, and a get together, and a little ceremony. But this is only the second year that they've been doing it here locally. Otherwise it never had been done.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: My husband and I always used to go to Milwaukee.

Q: Well, that's about it for my questions. Again, before --

A: That's fine.

Q: -- we go, anything else you want to bring up or mention?

A: 1 -- ""ma blank right now.

Q: Well, I -- I will just say again for the record, that you did two long interviews, video interviews --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- with the museum, those are in the record there --

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A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- about -- you know, in -- in -- in great detail --

A: Right.

Q: -- your -- your experiences actually during the war. We've talked about mostly different things here today.

A: Right.

Q: But anyone who's curious about any of that, the tapes are on file, and they can go back and listen, it's --

A: Right.

Q: -- some amazing, fascinating things on it.

A: Were you -- Are you satisfied with what I have to say?

Q: Oh sure, of course.

A: Yeah.

Q: Well, let me just -- let me just end our tape. So anyway, if --

A: Okay.

Q: -- if there's nothing more to add, then I'Il just thank you for taking the time to talk to us.

A: Oh, you're welcome. It's very nice of you to come and take your time, and I'm glad you came, and we had this nice talk.

Q: Well, I always knew there would be some reason I would go to Sheboygan, Wisconsin. You turned out to be it, so --

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A: Oh, thank you.

Q: Okay. Well, we" ll turn off the machinery, we'll let you actually open up your door, and put on the air conditioner, and do all that stuff that makes noise, and --

A: That's fine, no problem.

Q: So thanks again for taking the time.

A: Oh, you're welcome, very welcome.

Q: All right. This concludes the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Fela Warschau.

End of Tape Two, Side B

Conclusion of Interview