Document

ELIZABETH KOENIG January 29, 1990

Q: Okay. We are on. Would you tell me your name please?

A: My name is Elizabeth Koenig. I was born in Vienna, Austria, on March 7, 1924.

Q: Tell me about your parents. What did your father do and where did you live?

A: Uh...We lived in the inner city. My father was a journalist. Uh...He now lives in New York.

He's an international writer. His...his studies were...he had a Ph.D in...uh...international...uh...international...he was an international lawyer in international law.

Q: What...How...Where did you live? What was it like for you as a little girl?

A: We lived in a very large apartment. My parents were very lively, had a very lively...uh...environment. I was...uh...taken care of by a nurse maid. Uh...We had a lot of company. My parents went to the theater, to the...to the opera, to concerts, and I started to go to the theatre very early in my life.

Q: Uh...Besides theatre, what kinds of other things did you do as a little girl?

A: I learned how to read when I was...uh...4 years old. And I read a lot. And I walked a lot. We went in parks. Uh...I played with my little friends. I went to art school. Uh...It was called Czisek Art School, and it was specially for little children.

Q: What about being Jewish in Vienna?

A: I can't really answer this question in general. I can only answer this for my family. Uh...We were culturally contingeous Jews, but we did not practice any religious rites, and we didn't go...have Jewish holidays. I went...from the time on I went to school, I had religion in school. I learned about the Bible, and I learned how to read Hebrew. Uh...And I went...I was once in a play...uh...when I was about 7 years old, and...uh...it was about Esther. (Long Pause)

Q: As the Nazis began coming to power...uh...in Germany,...uh...did that affect your life at all?

A: Yes. At that time, we...my father had moved his family: my brother, myself, and my mother to Berlin. He was editor of the newspaper in Berlin, and when the Nazis came to power, we lived in..in the capital of Germany. He was very...uh... endangered because he was...uh...uh...on the Nazi blacklist as a liberal writer and journalist.

Q: What did that mean for you....your family, that he was on the blacklist?

A: Well, I didn't know that at the time. My parents didn't tell me. Uh...I only knew that we packed in a hurry and left Berlin as soon as possible which was easy for us because we had Austrian passports. And...uh...the laws about German Jews did not apply to us. So we went back to Vienna. Uh...My father had lost his job. Uh...And so we had to...our life became very restricted from that time on. We lived with my grandparents. My grandfather was a pediatrician. Uh...My mother's...that's my mother's father. My father's father had died. He had been a lawyer.

Q: What happened next?

A: When we came back to Vienna, we...uh...my brother and I went to schools...uh... There was no language difficulty and...uh...we continued school life until...uh...my...but my father had great difficulties finding a job. Uh...He was...uh... he resented the...uh...anti-Semitism in...in ...in Austria. Uh...It was undercover, but it was there and so after he tried very hard to with all kinds of various jobs, he decided he's going to leave Austria and he went to Prague to establish himself there. So when the Nazis came to Austria, our family was separated. My father was in Prague, and my mother and my brother and I were in Vienna.

Q: What happened?

A: Uh...At this point, of course,...uh...everybody was very worried, and...uh..my father wanted us to come to Prague, but it was too late. Somehow, I cannot give you the details, but we didn't get permission and we didn't get permission to go anyplace. My mother tried everywhere, and my father was frantic and he...he suggested that we meet in Addis Ababa or in Martinque just so that we could be reunited again. And then finally he got a visa from Prague to...uh...France, and he moved from...to France, hoping that that he would have it easier to have his family follow, but it turned out that the French did not...uh..permit us to come. And...uh...uh...so one day...uh...my father just said...In the meantime, the Nazi laws applied to Austria, and...uh...my father recognized the danger, and...uh...said we had...just had to leave at all cost. And...uh...we...uh...we took a bus from Baden Baden in Germany that made an excursion into France, Strasbourg, then came back to Baden Baden, and we intended to leave the bus in Strasbourg, but we were very foolish because...uh...we didn't take much but we had one piece of luggage for the three of us. And, of course, when we came across the border that piece of luggage was...uh...discovered, and...uh...people asked, "Whose luggage is it?" And we said, "It's ours," and then they they said, "You...you weren't going to visit the Cathedral of Strasbourg. You were going to come illegally to France and they stamped our passport and sent us back to Germany. And...uh...my father said to my mother, you have to try again, and we went to...uh...we went to...uh...uh... Can you cut it off please?

Q: It's okay. Let's put it back it on. You are about to try again. Tell me.

A: Yes. I...We went to Saarbrucken and...uh...wanted to go to France from Saabricken, and this

was already the...the...this was the days of the Munich Acccord, and you could feel the tension in both countries and the...the troops on the frontiers and when we came to the...uh...railroad station, there was an SS man and he said, "I know what you want. You want to go illegally to France. You won't make it." And my mother said, "Let us try it." And he said, "Okay, I'll let you try it, but if you come back you will be sent to Dachau." And sO we went over without a visa to France, and, of course, we were caught. There were more police in France than ever. And we were caught and we were put into prison, and then we were put back on the train again and when we arrived the next day it was, I think, at the station in Forbach....No. Excuse me....at the station in Saarbrucken, the same SS man was there and he...it was like... He smiled like I told you so. And then we were put into separate rooms and we were... I don't know what happened exactly to my mother and my brother. I know they were beaten. I know I was stripped completely and a little...little beaten.

And...uh...then I was...we were released and we were thinking now we are on our way to Dachau. And I can't explain it but somehow they gave us an opportunity to escape and we ran and we escaped. And...uh...We found ourselves together again outside the railroad station and...uh...my mother contacted my father in Paris and he said, "Go to Cologne and try to get a visa from the Consul there. I am going to contact him and I hope he will give you the visa." And my mother went to with us to Cologne, but the Consul did not give her a visa. He...I wasn't with my mother so I don't know exactly what happened. We were...uh...waiting for her. When she came back, she was crushed, completely...completely crushed. She was a changed person. She...At this...by this time, of course, you realize we had been...uh...always in the same clothes and had not changed and...uh...had not had the opportunity to...uh...have any... uh...semblance of human life. And...uh...she was completely...she dissolved and...and she decided we had to go back to Vienna. This was the only way we could survive.

And...uh...She went in this state in the middle...she didn't want to show it to us, I think, how...how desperate she was. And so she went to...to sit on a...a...in a little place in Cologne in the middle of Cologne and I only know by her story what happened. I didn't see it.

Uh...uh...Secretary from the...uh...Embassy arrived and asked her, "Aren't you the lady that wanted the visa?" And she said, "Yes." And he said, "Well, do you have any jewelry?" And she said, "Yes." And he said, "Well, maybe we can do something." And so she traded all her jewelry and got three visas, and we were on our way to the airport before you could say anything and we...uh...arrived in Paris and my father was there and I think I'll never forget walking into the airport in Paris into freedom. And...uh...my father took us to a little hotel and we...uh...we stayed there...uh...in the middle of town and I remember being very...uh...hungry all the time because we had very little to... money. My father had...had no job and...but soon after that, he...uh... managed to make a newspaper, a newsletter, not a newspaper, a newsletter. He wrote it all himself, a little bit like the Kiplinger Newsletter, about economic situation in Western Europe and...uh...he got people to subscribe to it and he had a...uh...multiplication machine and...uh...he...he sent out his newsletter. I...I...1 did the technical part, the photocopying and making of the newspaper, and we were able to live from his income and soon we had...uh...a little apartment and...uh...my brother went to school and...uh...everything seemed...uh...to pick up except that we were very worried about our family that we had left behind. My father...my grandfather....uh...was...because he was a

doctor was not allowed to leave. He was under strict orders to stay in Vienna and take care of the sick. And if he had tried to leave he would have been arrested. My other grandmother...uh..lived with...uh...my father's brother and they tried to go to England, and my mother's sister...uh...her husband was actually put into Dachau concentration camp on...

on Kristallnacht. And so we had cause to worry. And...uh...in the end, my family was able to go out of...uh...Austria in various ways.

Q: Tell me...tell me about...a little more about life in Paris. Uh...I believe you had someone living with you.

Q: Uh...Well, as soon as we had the apartment...uh...we tried to help other people who had no apartments and...uh...no place because as...when you pass through such...uh...events, you...you feel fortunate when you get a little...a little something already. And so...uh...my Latin teacher, for instance, who...who left Austria... And she was...she was not Jewish. She was...uh...she was Catholic, but she had a Jewish boyfriend, and was anti-Nazi. And so she wanted to leave Austria. She came to our place and stayed with us until she had a job. And it's...she had a job offer from a little village in France...uh...the name of which we had, of course, never heard before, and it turned out that her...she was going to teach German in Le Chambon Feugerolles. And then we had other people sleeping in our place, whoever had no home.

Q: What did you do during this period?

A: Uh...I wanted to go to art school. I always wanted to be an artist. And so I took an examination to...for an arts school and prayed that I would be accepted, and I did get accepted. It was a question then to...uh...pay because schools in France are essentially free.

So it wasn't much. And...uh...I just...uh...had...uh...some lady helped me with the paying of it.

So I went to the art school and...uh...that was... was very thankful for that. I had a wonderful...uh...experience. My brother went to boarding school too.

Q: When and how did things begin to change?

A: It became...it...with the declaration of war between...uh...Germany and France on...in...uh...I would like to add too that in the period just before I..I met a young student who, a Czech student, who today is my husband. And...uh...he...he at this time, he was a student in Paris, and he liked to come to our house and discuss politics with my father. And...uh...when the war was declared, I would...I have to add something that is more general now because our situation in...in France was ambiguous for the French because we were Austrians, and Austrians were Germans. So we were part of the enemy. On the other hand, they did understand vaguely that anti-Nazis could not really be an enemy, so it was very difficult for them to apply enemy laws to these types of refugees that came to France. But...and it depended actually on the individual...how he interpreted the laws. So when the...uh...war was declared on September, the 3rd, 1940...No...Excuse me...1939...uh...There immediately,

there was a mobilization of the French population and also there was a call for foreign nationals who were non-enemies to...uh...help the French effort to fight the war.

Now...uh...My father would have joined it, but he was not allowed to join it. He was...the Austrian men, my father and my brother, were considered enemy aliens at this point, and they were ordered to go into concentration camps. So my brother and my father had to go into concentration camps. They were not together. My brother was in one camp, and my father was in another. The...the women were left outside so my mother and I stayed in Paris.

Uh...The Czech student, whose name is Ernest, engaged himself into the Czech army that...the Czech army in exile, and he...we were all wanting to help the war effort to fight the Nazis. And also we didn't think it would...uh...the Nazis would win. I...I mean at this point we were convinced we're going to save...uh...the world from Nazism.

Q: What happened?

A: What happened?

Q: Your father is...your father and brother are in camps. You are outside the camps. How did you live at that point?

A: You know that is a good question. I hardly know how to answer. Uh...My...my mother...uh...my mother had, in her youth when she was about 20 years old...uh...helped my grandfather to take care of the wounded in World War I, so she had a little bit of nursing training. And...uh...she then went and by word of mouth tried to do some nursing and she got money from ...from that. And...uh...in France...[...you...I went...wanted to do babysitting or teaching languages or whatever, but in France...uh...there isn't no...you don't...do babysitting.

At that time, you didn't do babysitting. You were a nurse maid. But you didn't do babysitting in the evenings like you do it in America. And I didn't want to give up school, so...uh... I had just a few occupations, a few times that I could earn money and I tried by all means to do it, but it was very difficult. We lived from day to day. That's the answer. And...uh...as a matter of fact, there's a...there's a very funny story, but I am not going to go into it. You want me to.

Uh...In school, we had...uh...party. And...uh...I was told, "Oh, Elizabeth comes from Vienna.

Bring us a Viennese cake. And my mother was able to do it, but we didn't have the money to buy the ingrediences, so how are we going to do this Viennese cake without saying that we don't have the money? I don't remember any more how we solved the problem. I remember that...uh...I was terribly embarrassed. And another story is that...uh...we had a Spanish girl in the school and...uh...in France, it was...we...there were a lot of Spanish refugees at this time.

And, of course, I felt close to this girl because she was in my opinion a co-sufferer, and we got to be very, very good and close friend. Her...her name is Maria. And at one time, Maria invites me to her house. And...uh...I look at her address and it was the Rond Point des Champs Elyssees and...uh... Okay, I...another thing is I never had enough money for metro, so I walked a lot and also later I got myself a bicycle. But at this particular point, I...I walked to the Rond Point, and when I came to the address it...it was the French Embassy.

And...uh...I was very astounded and I rang the bell and the bell...door was open and I walk in

and in front of me is the portrait...of...of Franco, an enormous portrait of Franco, and I got very frightened, but I say, "Okay." I walk in and I turn around and upstairs is my little girlfriend, Maria, say, "Come up. Come up." And I walk up, and there's a tremendous portrait of Hitler. And I walk up, and my little girlfriend, Maria, was the daughter of the French...of the Spanish Ambassador. (Pause) By the way, he became Ambassador to America later.

Q: You were in this limbo for awhile. Did your father come back from the internment camp at this point? What happened to your father?

A: Yes. And...uh...meantime, we went visiting my...I went visiting my brother once. I couldn't visit my father, but he was released from camp. My brother was...uh...not released, and he was released from camp. I don't know why.

Q: Tell me about the visit to your brother. You have drawn a picture of it.

A: Well, I...that...that is why I got a bicycle. I had to...I wanted to visit my brother and...uh...somebody was selling a bicycle and so I figured it would be much less if I bought a bicycle and go instead of taking the train. So I bought this bicycle, which I named Barthalemus, and I went to see my brother. And I got permission. It was very rare that people got permission to visit. And I was very happy to do this. I was very happy to see my brother.

Q: So your brother remained in camp, however? He was not released?

A: No. My...my father was released, maybe because of his age? I don't really know why.

Q: Can you describe his coming home?

A: Oh, it...one day he appeared. It was completely unexpected. He appeared and we just...it was like...like sunshine coming back. (Laughter) It was great, and I remember all he wanted is to take a bath...uh, read his newspaper, and have a good meal.

Q: When did things change for you yet again?

A: And then...uh...he didn't stay long. My father didn't stay long because he had to engage himself in to what was called Camp de Prestataire which was part of the French Army unit actually.

It was the same thing as a concentration camp, only it was called Prestataire, and the other difference is...is then we got...uh...a little compensation from the French government for his being...uh...engaged so to speak as a Prestataire. It was ...uh....it was not any more a prisoner.

It was...uh...you were engaged in taking part in the war effort.

Q: Alright. So your father was more or less in this service?

A: Yes.

Q: Uh...When did things begin to get a little worse? What...what happened to you?

A: Uh... Well, things got worse when...uh...things got worse for France.

Q: Okay. Tell us about that.

A: Uh...We had...we had...uh...the Germans advanced. In the beginning, it was called the Drole de Guerre because nothing happened. And then in...in the springtime, the Germans advanced and...uh...the unexpected happened. They weren't...they weren't....they were victorious.

Nobody had imagined that. They conquered Belgium. They conquered Northern France.

And...uh..we couldn't believe it. At one point, you could hear the...the cannons and...uh...and...uh...the...the streets and everything in Paris were dark...of course, darkened, and you could hear the bombs. And it was frightening, and people started running away.

Most of the French people had a place in the...in Southern France somewhere and or grandparents and knew where to go, but people like us didn't know where to go, so we couldn't make any plans, but also we couldn't make any plans because the police did not let us travel. And...uh...we were told by our conciege that we should not even think of leaving our apartment in Paris, because she would...uh...notify the police. And...uh..so we were under...under observation, and we didn't know what to do. In the end, when the pressure became so...I mean...by pressure, I mean we realized the Germans are going to be in Paris in 2 days. Uh...We decided we are going to leave. And...uh...we didn't know where my brother were...was, and nor where my father was. Uh...We...we assumed that my father was...uh...somewhere fighting perhaps or in the work camp, and my brother equally and...uh...but we didn't know where they were, and we didn't know where to go and we had no means of going any place except the bicycle. So we decided the following: My mother would go on foot. She would make auto stop, and I would follow her wherever she would go. And...uh...so I wouldn't have a...a destination except the destination where the car that would accept her would take her. That would be my destiny and our destiny. And it...we...we didn't imagine the difficulty of carrying out this plan, but we went to the Port d'Orleans in the south of Paris, which was uh...group. already filled with people leaving and it's very difficult to even recognize the layout. And...uh...But quickly I got a...a car for my mother. I...My mother was too shy to do the auto stopping herself, and...uh...so I did it for her. And then I put her into the car, and then I quickly asked the driver where he was going as he rolled away, and he said, Rambouillet and so I took my bicycle and all I knew is...was my mother was on the way to Rambouillet. And as I bicycled I realized I don't know where in Rambouillet I am going to meet her. Also there were more than one road to go to Rambouillet, so she could be in the north, or east or west of Rambouillet. Fortunately, by almost a miracle I found her at the entrance of Rambouillet. I was looking at every car and I

can't tell you today how come I found her. I found her. It's not very far from Paris.

And...uh...We stayed the night there at a very poor woman's house who was very...uh...uh...to whom we were very thankful for taking us in. We slept at her house and the next day, the voyage started all over again. But we had learned to be a little more precise about our destination. So we said when the...the next person says where he is going, we will meet at the Marie, at the city hall of this particular village, because every village in France has a city hall. So the next time, I...uh...I think it was...we went to Chauteaudun, and then we met in Chauteaudun. And it was at the city hall and again we were very lucky. We met somebody who offered us...uh...a...a place in his house to sleep. And the next day, my mother...we went to...oh, I think...no, the next... Excuse me, I... think I am mixing it up. The next day we went to Chatres, and there's a... Yes. And somehow I went much faster than my mother because of the....the roads were all clogged with people and...uh...the bicycle could go in and out and the...the cars were stuck. So, | arrived at...uh...Chatres earlier than my mother and...uh...I waited for her. And then...as she came, at the moment she came, there was...uh...uh...bombing attack, and we had to run into the shelter. And I remember taking my mother's hand and leaving the bicycle outside and taking my mother's hand and running into the shelter. And when we came out of the shelter 2, 3 hours later, there was two policemen standing next to my bicycle and they said, "Is this your bicycle?" And I said, "Yes." And they said, "You're a German spy." And I said, "I am not a German spy." And they said, "What's this?" And showed me..in my...I had taken along in my...my musette, I had taken along Emest's passport. I had taken along Goethe's Faust, and I had...and something else that indicated to them that I am...I had some German origins and they arrested my mother and myself and put us in jail. And...uh...I couldn't believe it. I said, "What...what are you doing?

I mean L...We're just trying to flee from the Germans, and you say Iam a German spy." I couldn't believe it, but they didn't listen. And...uh...somehow...uh...at 5 o'clock in the morning, they opened the cell and they said, "The Germans are coming. The Germans are coming. Run away." And I took my mother, and we ran away, literally. I even found my bicycle, and...uh...then we went to Chateaudun. And then from Chateaudun, the next day...we...the next day we...we said we are going to Blois if possible because we were depending on...we couldn't say at anytime where we wanted to go, only where....where we could go. Right? So, I...when my mother got into a car, this car went to Vendome. So I was supposed to meet her in Vendome and I came to Vendome. And at that time the...the roads were clear and I expected my mother to be in Vendome before me because with a bicycle you go slower than with a car, but she wasn't there. And I was worried and...uh...but I didn't have much time for worrying because a bombardment started again and...uh... a man came to me and said you have to...to leave where you are in front of the...uh...city hall to go and go into shelter. And I said, "I can't go into shelter. I am waiting for my mother." He said, "You can't stay here. It's not allowed. You have to go into the shelter." So I put a big piece of paper with my mother's name and telling her that I was in the shelter, and then I went to the shelter. And when I came out of the shelter, the piece of paper was gone and my mother wasn't there. So I couldn't understand anything, and I was pretty upset because my mother perhaps had seen it, but she hadn't come to the shelter or she hadn't waited for me. What was I supposed to do? She wasn't there. And the Germans were going to come. So in my being

so upset, I...uh...looked at the....I don't think I had a map, but I must have looked at something that shown me that the camp of my father was only 3 or 4 miles away from where I was. So I decided that I'm going to see if I cannot find my father and then come back to this place in Vendome. Or go to Blois where we said we would be together this evening. So I left a note again at the Marie saying that I am on the way to look for my father. If it is late, I will go back to Blois and find her at the Marie in Blois. And when I came to the place where my father was supposed to be, there was...the camp was empty. And I found one officer there who packed his luggage and he said Yes, your father was here about 4 hours ago. He...he went with his...uh...group. Uh...He went into this and this direction, and you probably can catch them if you bicycle fast. So I was torn between trying to find my father and going to Blois as I had promised my mother. And I thought I would find my father for sure, but I wouldn't find my mother perhaps. Perhaps I wouldn't find my mother. And so I decided to go to where my father was. And I bicycled and bicycled and bicycled and then finally, I realized I was bicycling...bicycling in the wrong direction toward the Germans and...uh...after I had bicycled for 4 hours and not found my father.... I don't know whether I had gotten the wrong directions or whether L..I can't... can't say what went wrong there. Anyway after 4 hours bicycling, I was at the end of my physical possibilities. And I propped myself against a tree and...and passed out. And then when I came to myself, I was surrounded by four Belgian soldiers who gave me sugar and fed me sugar and then I woke up and...uh...they said...uh...you'll have to move from here. The Germans are coming instantly. And I said, "I am looking for my father. I have to go to this other direction." They said, "No. Your...your father is not there. Your father couldn't be there." Then I said, "Okay, then I go to Blois and find my mother. And they said, "Okay. We go with you." And we took the road and went to Blois, and as we came to Blois, the policeman said, "You cannot cross the bridge anymore.

We are going to blow it up." And I was on the other side of the Loire, the city hall was on the side of the bridge they were going. In other words, I couldn't go to the city hall anymore.

And...uh...I...L..[ nearly threw myself on the bridge, but they took me off and...uh...they said, "You can't do this. You can't go across." I said, "I have to find my mother." And they said, "Your mother is not there, because we are going to blow this whole thing up." And so L...this is why I lost my mother too. And...uh...they blew up the bridge. The...the bombs rained down. The whole thing looked like in a...looked so surrealistic. The fire, the bombs, the everything. And...uh...I was lost. And...uh...] went to the...uh...to a barn and...uh...cried, and that was it. And then the...the Belgian soldier said, "If you want to go, you could go down south of France with us. We are going down there." So I said, "Fine. I'll join you." And this was very lucky for me, because they were very...uh...dependable fellows and I had learned in the meantime that to go with four fellows was safer than to go with one. And...uh...we...this must have been....I don't know what day this was anymore, but any...anyway, we went to this...toward the south and bicycled and bicycled. And one day...uh...where we stayed overnight... We...we fed ourselves by taking things from...uh...the fields actually.

And...uh...the...the boys were very inventive about this and they always found something to eat. And...uh...uh...at...at one time, however, we went to...uh...Centre..how do you say?

Q: Hospital?

A: No, not hospital. Uh...where they...they took in refugees and...uh...we went to this Centre d'Accueil and in the Centre d'Accueil was a young man.... I...everywhere I went, I asked about my father, mother, and brother if anybody had seen them. And I also asked in the Centre d'Accuiel whether anybody had seen anybody of my family and somebody said from the description, they think they know my brother. And so where he was last seen a few days ago in Toulouse. So, I said, "I have to go and find my brother." And I said goodbye to the boys and...uh...took off for Toulouse the next morning and bicycled as fast as I could to Toulouse. And...uh...I arrived in Toulouse at noon...noon, before noon and I went to the Centre d'Accueil in Toulouse and I realized that Toulouse was a big city. It wasn't like a little village. It was already before the war...I mean...yes, before the war it was a million people.

And at this particular time...uh...the refugees came all from the north, not only Belgium or Luxembourg, but all the French people and they had...and the city of Toulouse was swelled to two million people. And they had this Centre d'Accueil to take care of them...uh...take care of them is a euphemism...uh... It...it was dreadful. There were murders and rapes and a terrible place. But what could you do? Where would you stay otherwise? And...uh...so I went to this place and I inquired where I would find my brother. And at every meal I went up and I said, "Is there anybody who knows my brother?" And I couldn't find him so. So I was pretty desperate by the evening. I went to the middle of the city and...uh...the middle of the city was quite different. There were lots of people, and some people had enough money to go to restaurants and cafe houses, so I looked into the cafe houses and I found actually people I knew...uh...from Paris and...uh...but I didn't find my brother. And I was very, very discouraged because I had to go back to this awful place and as I walked down to go to...back to the Centre d'Assueil, I went through a little street and at the end of the street there was my brother and he sold newspapers. And that's how I found my brother. He was there.

I...L..it was...I don't know. I can't say I mean how it happened. It was there. He was there.

And, of course, we were both very happy and...uh...he...uh...he had a girlfriend with whom he lived and he said he would meet me the next day at the...uh...post office and then we would discuss what we would do together and we would rearrange everything what we would do. And so the next day at 10 o'clock I came to the post office and...uh...I was impatient. He didn't come right away, so because he was...I was impatient I went to the...uh...one of the counters, one of the...where you sell things. What do you call it?

Q: Store?

A: No. No. No. In the post office

Q:

A: Yes.

Q: Opening. One of the opening windows. One of the windows in the post office.

And...uh...where they...in France they have what is called poste restante and...uh...I don't

know if this is here too. There is no such a thing where they keep the...uh...letters or for other people, and you go. You identify yourself and you can pick up your mail that way. And so I went to one of the windows and | asked, "Do you have any letter for...for me?" And they said, "Yes." And I certainly hadn't expected anybody write me a letter because nobody knew I was in Toulouse. Nobody on earth knew that on that day I was going to be Toulouse. And there was a letter! And I looked at it. It was from my mother. And she...that letter...it was a very short, little letter saying...uh..Elizabeth, if you get this letter, 1 am in Baucus, and I am waiting for you. And so when I...my father...my brother came to the post office, I gave him the letter. I said, "Look here. I found my mommy and your mommy." And we were so happy. And so...so I said, "Immediately, I will go and find here." The letter was already 10 days old, so I was afraid she would not be there anymore. So I...uh...said to my brother, "You'll hear from me when I find my mother." And I went to the train station with my bicycle. I had only enough money to go to Pau and from there on, I had to take my bicycle again and bicycle to where my mother was which was close to the Spanish frontier. And I took the train to Pau and took out my bicycle, and as I was in the railroad station, I saw a...a little man who was in a similar uniform as my father had when I...uh..he went into the Prestataire. And since I recognized the uniform, I went to him and I said...no, I went to him...he... I heard him shout in German, and I went to him and L...I realized that he only spoke German and he... said to him something about my father and he was very rude. He said, "I don't want to speak about anything. I want to find my wife." And he...he was rude to everybody. So I said to him, "This isn't anyway you are going to find your wife. I can help you because I speak French. I'll help you." So, it turned out that his wife was in Gurs, in the concentration camp in Gurs and he was looking for her. I found out how he could find...go to Gurs from Pau, and told him exactly which train to go. In fact, went with him to the train, set him into a compartment, and then I said, "Have you ever seen my father because you have the same kind of a uniform?" And he said, "Yes. Yesterday." And he...I said, "My goodness, as the train was already starting to roll. "Please tell me where it was?" And he said, it was in...near of Limoges." I said, "Exactly where it was?" So shouting out of the window, he gave me the telephone number I could call. And...uh...he departed. And...uh...I was flabbergasted, of course, as you can imagine. I took my bicycle and just as I went to Toulouse, I went to Barcus to find my mother. And when I came to Barcus, it wasn't as I had imagined either. It was a very, long drawn out village. I didn't know exactly where my mother was, but I...and I went to the first cafe and asked them if they would know my mother. And at that point I realized that everybody in the village knew I had been lost because my mother thought I had been killed in the...uh...bombardment in Blois Just as much as I had been desperate for her, she has...had been desperate for me. She did not think I had survived it, and she had told everybody that she mourned her daughter. And so when I came to this little village, everybody looked at me as if I were a ghost. And they told me where my mother was and I came into her little house where she lived in a peasant hut. And, also, a moment I will never forget in my life, my mother looked at me like coming back from the dead. And here I was, and here was my mother. And not only could I tell my mother and...and...uh...embrace my mother and kiss her and...but I was able to tell her, "I know where my brother is. I know where my father is."

Q: Okay. Okay. At this point, we will break and change tapes. Perfect place to break.

Tape #2

Q: Go ahead. Tell us the story of the letter.

A: The story of the letter? All right. While I was Toulouse, I wrote a letter to...uh...a friend of Ernest in Switzerland, saying that I was alive and...and if he would know where Ernest is to write me a letter poste restante in Toulouse. Okay. I come now back to...to my mother...mother's meeting. Uh...We, of course...there was only one thing to do is to go back to Toulouse, see my brother, and go back to and find out if my father was where this man had said he was. I had seen him. So we first went to the telephone booth and dialed this magic number and...uh...we found my father and...uh...he came to the farm and...uh...it...it was incredible. Incredible! So, of course, he said, "Come immediately." And...uh...so our aim was... Yes, he was in Limoges, near Limoges, which was beyond Toulouse. So our aim was to go to Toulouse and then from Toulouse to...to where he was. Okay? So that's what we did. I...uh...in parenthesis, I may say we took the train and...because...of course, because my mother had no bicycle. We took the train and everything we owned was robbed in that train which included, unfortunately, our food cards...cards...and all identity cards. Everything we still had was stolen in this train ride, which is terrible because when you don't have identity cards and no food cards at this time, it's hard to exist. Well, I don't know what we did in..to...uh...get food at that point. I...I've forgotten. Uh...We arrived in Toulouse. It was a terrific reunion with my brother and...uh...we....my mother had a tiny bit of money from this compensation of the French Government. That was...so we could pay for our fare. And we had decided we are going then now to go to my father. My brother wanted to stay in Toulouse and...uh...but before we went to take a train ticket to...to go my father's, I went to the post office and there was a letter from...uh...Ernest's friend, saying that Ernest was very close to where my mother had been. So I said to my mother, "I am going to go and find Ernest. Now that I know the way!" (Chuckle) So my mother understood and she said, "You go ahead, and we meet at your father's." I rode down again, met Ernest, and he had been...uh...in this little place and my meeting with Emest was also in the street. He didn't know I was coming. I saw him walking in the street and...uh...it was also unbelievable.

So...and the next day, I convinced him to go with me to see my father. But he had not been demobilized yet so he said, Okay, I think it's best if I go first to, I think, Tarbes, but I am not sure...uh...to get demobilized because then I also get a little money when I undemobilization, and then we can...I can take a train ticket and we don't have to go by bicycle and...and other stuff. And...uh...So he went to Tarbes, got a little money, and we went to see my father. And then we lived with my father on my father's ration. My mother, Emest and I, all three of us on one ration and that couldn't last. So Ernest decided he's going to look for a job. But, of course, he wasn't allowed to work, so he had to...No, he wanted to be...Excuse me...He wanted to be a student actually and continue his studies, so he went to Grenoble and what happened to him is another story, A very, very sad and long story. Uh...My mother and I, in the meantime, stayed with my father, living off this soldier's ration, and...uh... If you ask how this life was, it was very difficult, very very difficult. Uh... This village had no school, where I could go to. Uh...We had practically no place to sleep. Uh...Finally, we got...arranged

for..for a place where my mother and my father could stay in one room and I could stay in another room. And...uh...1 got acquainted with the library there, La bibliotheque, and...uh... I must say I got as good an education from just reading one book after the other in the...in the bibliotheque ...uh... I read all of Romain Rolland, all of Baudelaire, of Maupassant...uh... Not bad! And...uh...uh...otherwise, we...the days were spent collecting...uh...uh...food such as berries and chataigne. What is it..uh...uh..uh... No. And...uh...just the daily life to...to wash yourself was quite a problem. We had...you had to go to a public bath and there...I don't think there was any for women. It was difficult. And...uh...Well, main concern then was to find out where my grandparents were. And...uh...We couldn't get in touch with them. We couldn't find them. And my...uh...that was more or less the daily task.

Q: Under what circumstances did you leave that town?

A: And one day we received a letter from our...the lady who was my Latin teacher in Vienna, who had gone into a village...uh...to become a German teacher, and she wrote me and my father...parents a letter saying that as things do not look...uh...too well... In the meantime, of course...I digress. You excuse me. In the meantime, the Vichy government...uh...persecute...started to persecute the foreigners and to persecute especially the foreign Jews and we had to live...uh...not...uh...yet in hiding, but on the edge of society.

And...uh...when the letter came, the teacher said that she would suggest that I come to where she is, which is Le Chambon ___ and she would have a job for me. During the summer time, I could take care of Pastor Trocme's children and in the fall, I could go to school. So my parents" decided this was a much better solution for their daughter and I wasn't very happy to leave my parents, but I went to Le Chambon ___ and there I was received by Paster Trocme and...uh... I...my job was to take care of the children, to help in the household, and to do anything else that was necessary. And...uh...that's what I did.

Q: Can you describe life in the Trocme household please, in the school?

A: That wasn't the school.

Q: I'm sorry. Describe...describe...describe life taking care in the...in the Trocme family.

A: Yes. The main...the main thing was there were four...four children. The Trocme's had four children. One of them was only 2 years younger than J, so actually...uh...uh...that...uh...Nellie was not under my charge at all. She was 14 years old, and I remember played beautiful piano and was very independent young lady. Uh... The children that I was taking care of Jon Pierre, who was 12, Jacquo, who was 10, and Danielle, who was 7. And...uh...the...this was summer time and the children did not go to school, so you had to take care of the children from the day...from the moment they opened their eyes til the moment they closed their eyes. They were very, very active little children, so that's what you had to do. And the...the main task was to take them out...outside, so that they could play, and I remember taking long walks and taking picnics and mainly trying to keep peace amongst them because they were

continuously fighting. (Chuckle) And...uh...uh...this...then I had to help with preparing the meals and...uh...the...it......but what I remember most...most is the evening meal where we all sit around the table and...uh... It was a very moving moment when Pastor Trocme said the prayers and the whole...the whole rhythm of the day changed. It...it was very busy everywhere where...when, you know, you hear about the busyness, about the lots to do in the Trocme house and it was true. It was a dynamic situation and at that moment, everybody was quiet and thoughtful and completely changed.

Q: What did you know about what the Trocme were doing to help other Jews?

A: I didn't know about their plans at all. One day, however,...uh... Mother Trocme told me that they intended to have children come from the Condegeres and that when they are in Le Chambon, they would want me to go there in..into the same house to help with the children because the children would not know French. A lot...a lot of the children would not know French, and they wanted me to help with the children. Would I do that? And I said, "Of course." And then, also,...at...at...one thing happened that made...did...it was very strange.

They did not treat me like a refugee child. They treated me more like a French child...youngster. Right? Uh...Be...I don't...[ mean I wasn't...they did not realize so much my...my background, I don't think. Until one day, I receive a letter from my grandfather saying that they were going to go to Cuba and I was terribly upset. I thought that I would never see my grandparents again, and I cried very much. And then they realized that..-uh...1 had the similar background to the children that they were helping and...uh...1 think they were...uh...very glad I could be...uh...bridge between the people of the village and the people and the children.

Q: Can you tell me something about the Trocmes? What were they like as people?

A: Uh...Pastor Trocme was a very distant person. I've read...uh..several descriptions of him as a person, and he was all of them. All of the descriptions was...were...are true. When I say he was a very distant person, then I mean he was a very distant person at the beginning, at the outset. He...he was...he was a leader. He was a leader. To...to his wife he was completely different. His relationship with his wife, it was completely different. He was very warm. So he was both warm and distant.

Q: And Mrs. Trocme?

A: And...uh...I have a tendency to call her Mama Trocme. Mama Trocme was a wonderful...uh...caring person...uh...who...who did everything. She...she would ..uh...uh...do...uh...peel potatoes as much as she would help another person. I mean she would be there for...for her own household. She had an awful lot to do. The daily difficulties were enormous for her. Enormous. She had four boarders in her house. In order to survive financially, the Trocme's had to have boarders. And...uh..when...they... they gave her a lot of work.

Q: When you moved around in the town, how did it feel like for you as a Jew?

A: I didn't move around in town.

Q: Not at all?

A: I didn't. I was with the children or in the house. I never moved around town. And then when I was in the house with the other...the house was called Lagasbe. Uh...If you want to come to that period now...uh...that...I was first in LeChambon during the summer. Right? And then when the school started, I moved to Lagasbe. And...uh...when I came to Lagasbe, the children from Gurs ...were...had already arrived, I think a day or 2 before. And...uh... There was a room for the girls and a room for the boys. Was very, very small. Very small and crowded. So I was in the girls" room. And...uh... There my task was to...(pause) uh...to...uh...help them in any way you can. I mean there was not an assigned task. You helped because they were des... These children had just left their parents, and they were in a situation where they hardly knew where they were. They...they did not understand where they were. They...uh..knew they were somewhere in France without their parents. They had come from Germany. They had...uh...arrived in Gurs in...in the camp. They...they had been transported from Gurs to Le Chambon. And...and they had no idea where they were and what they were there for. So, you...you had to...to hold their hands. That's what it was.

You...you had to hold their hands because they were alone. All of them. Each one of them.

Uh...Then I was told I should go to school and I was glad to go to school. There was only one other person who could go to school because the school was, of course, already...uh...high school and you had to know French in order to go to school. And the other children did not know, except one boy. So the boy was___, and I...we went to school. And we went to school each day so I don't really know what happened in the little house during the day. I only know that in the evening when I came home I tried to teach them some French. I tried to sing songs with them. L...uh...tried to console, and then after our meal...well our meal consisted of a soup and a piece of bread, essentially, I had to study a lot. So I studied til ll o'clock at night. Then I got up at 6 o'clock in the morning to study some more before I went to school. And...uh...went to school with...uh...Jon.

Q: How long were you there?

A: This...1...J started..-uh...uh...school in September and...uh..in November, I got a letter from my father saying, "Drop everything. We have an American visa. And come to Lyon tomorrow." And...uh...that was it. L..I was flabbergasted. I was...uh...torn...uh...I felt 1 am betraying my little comrades. I was leaving them at the peak...I...I had realized that the...that we were in hiding more or less and...uh...L...I was torn to go, but I mean I could not leave my father's letter...uh...unanswered and he had already, of course, left his village, so he expected me to be in Lyon. And so I prepared to leave. And when I prepared to leave, the children took me to the railroad station and it started snowing and the children went home and I

waited for the train and the train never came. And I got frantic. It was afternoon and I still couldn't leave. And I was all by myself and L...uh... decided I had to...to walk to Lyon.

And...uh...I left the place and...uh...about an hour later, I was lost. Completely lost!

The...uh...snow had turned into a tremendous snow storm. I...I was first in the snow up to my ankles and then it became higher and higher and I got stuck til up to my knees and at one point, I thought that was it. | am not going to make it either back or forth, and I remember just putting my head on the snow and sort of giving up and...uh...then it was so cold that I had to move. And I started running again. Somehow I got out of it. Somehow I got into someplace where the...where people...and somehow I got into the train to Lyon. I can't remember exactly how. And I was...uh...I was...uh...That's the reason I can't remember much of this because I was in total shock. And...uh...when I came to Lyon, I don't remember how I met my parents anymore. I... was so totally shocked. Uh...My father must have gotten a visa there and I must have gotten a visa there, but I don't remember anything. And...uh...I remember then my father and...my brother wasn't with us because he was still in a camp.

And he joined us in Marseilles and I am beginning slightly to remember from that part on when we were in Marseilles..-uh...my father received a letter from the Committee that we should go to the Condemill to await permission to leave France. We had the America visa.

This visa, I must add how we got it. It...it was a miracle almost because only a thousand people got visas from the United States at this time. They was...this was a special action by...uh...President Roosevelt and the Refugee Committee headed by Varian Fry who...uh...wanted to save European intellectuals. And they, because my father was on the black list and he was a writer, they gave him this chance and gave him and his family another chance to come to America. And...uh...(Pause) But we didn't have a permission to leave the country yet. That was another hurdle to overcome. So we were told to go to await the official permission in the Condemill. And...uh...My father said, "No. I shall not go to any camp even if I have to starve." And so we did not go to the Condemill. We did starve, and we stayed in Marseilles and...uh...things dragged on and dragged on and dragged on and...uh...my father became very impatient. And one day he said to us, "We are leaving." It happened to have been the 7th of December 1941. And we took the train from Marseilles to the...to the Spanish border where we got out of the train. We went across the border with our American visa, but not the permission. And at that particular point the border was closed, but we were already on the Spanish side. So we couldn't be sent back because the border was closed so we were in Spain, and the Spanish had no objections because they knew we were not going to stay in Spain and...uh...uh... we had...we took a ticket...we had 50 dollars on us for the four of us. My brother had joined me I think I had mentioned that. For the four of us we had 50 dollars. We took the 4th class ticket to go to...uh...Portugal. And...uh...was a long ride. When we came to Barcelona...uh...my father said, "Let's get out of the train. I know somebody in Barcelona." So we all left the train in Barcelona. But it wasn't...I guess they weren't too much afraid because we had the American visa. And then we traveled to Lisbon.

Q: Go on.

A: Go on? (Chuckle) Again, I mean you had to live from day to day. There was no money so

we went to a Committee and...uh... they helped us. They were very kind. And we stayed...of course, it was not, as I mentioned before, the war had started. Pearl Harbor and...uh...uh...the Germans started...uh...mining the Atlantic Ocean. The boats did not want to cross anymore through the United States. It was not easy to pursue the plans to go to America. Finally, we did get...uh...a passage on the Niasa, and the Niasa did not go directly from Lisbon to New York, but went first to Cuba. And, of course, we wanted to see my grandparents but we weren't allowed to get off the boat at all. And my grandparents never knew that we had landed in Cuba. And...uh...from Cuba we went to the Bermuda's, at which point we learned that the Niasa was full of spies and that we're not going to be able to pursue our voyage and...uh...the police came on board and they interviewed everybody for hours, found the spies, arrested the spies, and we then were allowed to...to go to America. However, they did not want us to go to New York, and we landed in Virginia Beach. And...uh...the American authorities came on board, again screened everybody on board and then we got permission to...to leave. We were guided from the boat, blindfolded to a train that was also blinded...

had... uh...the windows were blinded. Uh...And we were given seats and we were not allowed to move from there, and the trains started to go to New York, but we were afraid. I mean we were in America, and the first thing we got was...uh...sandwiches. We had never seen such white bread in years and we were extremely relieved and I mean...uh...you cannot describe the feeling. It's impossible. It's...it's a feeling that you can only have once in a lifetime. We arrived in New York, Pennsylvania Station. I don't think a lot of immigrants did that. Uh...I think it's 32nd or 34th Street. We arrived and here you were and then where did you go? Right? So...uh...we...we decided we have to disburse because we didn't have any money to go to a hotel or anything like that. And...uh...so my...we all had friends and I went to some friends I had and I happened to be on 86th Street, West Side. So I walked from 34 to 86th Street because it's very easy to find your way in New York, and I rang the bell and (laughter) I said, "Here I am. Will you take me in?" And they did. I imagine my father and my mother and my brother had the same kind of experience. I came in. They took me in.

They were very, very kind. And I fell sick. Immediately! Immediately fell sick. My...And the first thing I did was, when I got better, I went to Julie Richmond High School, and inscribed myself and they were very, very kind. I knew two words of English. And if I say them to you you will laugh. They are: cheek to cheek." (Laughter) Because one of the Fred Astaire songs of that time... Now I know it was "Together Dancing Cheek to Cheek." And that was the only two words, is cheek and to...uh...that I knew. I don't think I knew what it was. (Laughter) Uh...But I went to high school and I said I would like to go to school and they said, "Fine." But they, of course, noticed that I couldn't speak a word of English so they sent me to the French teacher in order to sort me out. It so happened that the French teacher did not speak any French. She came from Spain. And I didn't know any Spanish so that didn't work. And...uh...after awhile, I found a very, very wonderful English teacher who understood the...my difficulties, and...uh...she explained it to the others and so I was...uh...put into...uh...into two classes at once so I would advance quickly and...uh...didn't take me long.

I learned English and...uh...I graduated within the same year from high school. And...uh...

lived first with a family that needed a babysitter and I took care of the baby after I came home from school and then later when my father made...could afford it and we had an

apartment, I moved in with my parents. My father, of course, joined immediately a group of...uh...people who...to help other refugees and...uh...he also got himself an agent and he contacted the Free French. I contacted the Free French too, but they thought I was too young to be of any help. I didn't think so and I...today I... don't know why they didn't let me join them. Uh...I was very eager to...to help the war effort. At the same time, my brother was recruited into the Army and he did...he became...uh...American soldier and...uh...after basic training, he was sent overseas and he died in France on the last year of the war in the French...in the American army. And...uh...well, I thought I should make my contribution, but I guess...uh...I...1 wasn't able to...to join any group that went on combat. I continued school.

After graduation from high school, I entered Hunter College of the City of New York. At that time it was not...uh...evident to get into Hunter College. You had to pass a very stiff exam. And...uh...I...to this day, I don't know how I managed to pass this exam, but I did. I was accepted in Hunter College and there the French teacher spoke French. (Laughter) He was , and only a few weeks after I...1...uh...joined the Hunter College. He went and joined the Free French and went back to France.

Q: What happened after...very briefly, after you finished college? What did you do?

A: Uh...After I finished college, still in the last year of college, I heard that Ernest Koenig had survived the war. He had looked for me via his brother. In England, his brother had written to somebody in New York who must have looked up the telephone book or something.

Anyway, I was found. I was contacted by Ernest Koenig, and...uh..we decided to see each other again. And so my...upon graduation, I was only intend to earn enough money to pay a ticket over to Europe and visit Ernest. So, upon graduation, I looked for a job. And I looked...I was at that point also I had done the Art Students League. I didn't mention that. I didn't only go to college. I went to the Arts too. I must say after my brother died, I was crushed and I didn't want to go to...to see anybody or stay...stay anymore in my old environment so I went...I left...uh...college. I went to evening college to...in order to finish the...the year and I went to arts school in the day time, to Art Students League.

And...uh...when I graduated I..-uh...[...uh...1 graduated in arts. And I looked for jobs in art.

And as you know, jobs in art after graduation are not easy to find unless you are ready to do...uh...serial kinds of jobs, like in cartoons or that kind of thing I was offered, but I didn't want to do that. So one day, I...uh...I went to the public library to get out a book and there was a big advertisement for somebody with my language skills. I went in. I got the job, and I became a librarian.

Q: When did you see Ernest again?

A: Uh...L...after a few months on my job, I had enough money. I asked for permission if I could go to Europe and they gave it to me for a week, I wanted to go. My...I...also...Emest, by that time, had lived in London and my grandmother was in London also. So very officially, I visited my grandmother. And my father came with me to visit his mother, so my father and I went to London, and I met Ernest at the Picadilly...uh...subway station. Uh...And...uh...we

decided to get married next week. (Laughter) That was it.

Q: Okay. Okay. Elizabeth, thank you very much. I would like...I would like to go just for 1 minute if we can, back to LeChambon. Uh... You were teaching in the school. Uh...Can you tell me something about the kids, the children that you taught, that you were helping out with in this school?

A: No. I wasn't teaching.

Q: No. You were helping with them.

A: No. I wasn't teaching at all. The...it was helping them psychologically more than anything else. The children were very disturbed and they were treated as a bunch and not as individuals. They were not...they were the children that came from Gurs, but that wasn't so.

Each child had a different individual story, and nobody listened to them. So what I really did is I... helped them tell me their stories. I mean I allowed them to...to...to tell their stories, their griefs, their...their unhappiness. They cried at night. They had nightmares. One of the children wet herself every night. But that wasn't known in the village. That wasn't known at all. We kept that to ourselves.

Q: It sounds like you were very close.

A: We were very, very close. We were like sisters and brothers with the boys too. The boys...L..1 am speaking now about the girls because I was in the girls" room, but I felt for the boys like if they were my brothers, just as much. Especially for the teenage boys. They were so hungry. They...they were howling like wolves, and people didn't understand why. They were hungry. They were lonesome. And...uh...I...1 especially remember some of the boys...uh...well, you would call it, stole a potato and he was punished for it. And I was devastated because he was...he was not responsible. His body needed it. We...we were so close...uh...[...in France at that time, you got...uh...you got...uh...a special allowance for children for chocolate and sugar. Up to 16 years, you got chocolate and sugar. And I collected my chocolate and sugar and I didn't have a chance to say this, but in the meantime Ernest was in a concentration camp, and I took that...and sent it in to the concentration camp and that was one of the reasons I didn't want to leave Europe. I felt if I didn't send my sugar he would...he would not survive. So...uh...I have a letter...I think I may still have it...where the children tell me, "We will not forget Emest. We will send him sugar." They had nothing themselves. But we were very close. Very close!

Q: Did the people from the town come into the school to try to help at all? Was there any contact between your children and the town?

A: I don't think so. No. I don't think so. No.

Q: Alright.

A: No. Uh...Maybe later. At this particular point, it was just being established, you see. The main thing | think was the...uh...worry. Where's the money going to come from to support us? And that was...uh...Pastor Trocme's money and it...I must say, we were supported...uh...wonderfully by the American Quakers and by the...uh... . They gave the money. Those two organizations. If it weren't for the American Quakers and the _, they could not have had enough money to establish the house.

Q: Okay. Alright. Thank you very much.

A: Thank you. Thank you very much.