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Interview with Amalie Salsitz July 8, 1999 Beginning Tape One, Side A

Q: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Jeff and Toby Herr collection.

This is an interview with Amalie Salsitz, conducted by Regina Baier, on July 8", 1999, in Mrs. Salsitz's home. This is a follow up interview to a USHMM videotaped interview conducted with Amalie Salsitz on May 12", 1990. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum gratefully acknowledges Jeff and Toby Herr for making this interview possible. This is tape number one, side A. To get started I thought it would be a good idea to tell our listeners when you were born, and where.

A: I was born October 21, 1922, ow -- by coincident in Munich, because my mother was visiting her family there, she didn't expect. But I was raised -- I went through the Holocaust in Stanislawow in Poland, southeast of Poland.

Q: And if you would now give us your names. The name you had a birth, the name you took on during the war, and the name -- and your married name.

A: First I have to start with a joke. My late parents called my Manya. First -- in the first grade I learned my name is Amalie when my teacher called out Amalie Petrenka to give me my report card. So this is the first time I learned that my name is Amalie, on -- and not Manya. When I started as a Christian Pole -- masquerading as a Christian Pole, I chose actually, my fictitious name, Felitsia Mewashefsky. I took Felitsia from Latin, Felitsia Felitsitakislak. Mewashefsky ma -- was my beloved writer, I liked her booked. So

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 3 I dec -- and also, I had a German French r. When I was masquerading, I had to blend -- almost hundred percent the local population, to the Slavic r. So naturally, I tried to eliminate r from any possible word that I can -- that I can. Otherwise, probably, I would have remained Petrenka, because Petrenka is not a Jewish name. But, I have chosen Mewashefsky. I stayed with minash -- Mewashefsky till I got married to Norman s -- actually Naftali Salishitz at that time. So I became Amalie Salishitz. When we came to United States, he changed his name Salishitz to Salsitz, because his oldest brother, who was here for 20 years, at -- before m-my husband -- after my husband was born. So he wanted to have the same family name so he beca -- I became Amalie Salsitz.

Q: Let me ask you this, before we then go onto the duration. Who was Amalie Petrenka?

Who was she as a girl, as a young person, and who was Felitsia Mewashefsky as a person? How did you feel about the change?

A: Fala -- ama -- Amalie Petrenka was a very happy go lucky type, with shiny eyes that I didn't know, but they were pointed out to me constantly, even during the war. I couldn't carry for a long time, a grudge, or hatred. I loved people, but Amalie Salsitz was also fighter, because she was the middle child, so she fought for her rights, because my older sister was only year and a half older than I, and the younger, one year younger. And my parents wanted always to keep me with my younger sister. So I learned to fight for my rights. And, little mischievous, rebellious, this was Amalie Petrenka. As matter of fact, I have done things to big displeasure of my parents, because sometimes I questioned their judgment. For example, I come from middle or above class, and I got -- we -- private

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 4 schooling, very expensive. So, when my parents complained about it, and they said for this money they could have traveled in Europe, I dared to tell them I didn't ask to be born. This is not something in Europe, that parents appreciate. Felitsia Mewashefsky became a very cautious person that -- full of fear, and she played th -- la -- a -- helhole lak reeda payatso. Laughing during the day with people, the pillow all wet during the night. And afraid to face people, still she was exposed every time to people. Many times I walked with downcast eyes, although as a child I was told, supposedly, I have very beautiful eyes. I used to have very big one, and dark -- the eyelight -- eye white were even blue with the fair complexion and the fair hair, I guess it was outstanding, and the shiny eyes, like somebody who drinks. Here, I was downcast because I was afraid that people will recognize me. So, predominant factor in me was cautiousness, afraid, fearful, and in a way, also I decided I will fight Hitler with [indecipherable]. I will prove to him that it is all really nothing, that it's not true. I will excel so much, even as a Christian Pole, and be admired, to prove how false his theory was, which I succeeded. Many cases later -- maybe I will tell it i-if you want, later. So this was the Amalie. Still, this Felitsia Mewashefsky, if she could -- she c -- just couldn't forget about the cultural life. Actually it was taboo to -- for Poles -- Christians, to go to movie houses, to go to resort, but Felitsia Mewashefsky was able to g -- venture to movie houses, no feedeutsch, no -- because I thought I'll be less caught there. And I went -- for example, I have done things, like I went to the copanna, which was forbidden for Poles, just to prove my point. I felt

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 5 also, I play with fire later on. If so, let me be caught to -- not only because I w -- am Jewish, but I have done things that even the Poles were not permitted, the Christians.

Q: We will speak later about all three of you, but especially who Amalie Salsitz became in the United States, but for the time being, let's talk -- let's go back a -- or stay with the time just before liberation. What was your state of mind, and what were the events that followed?

A: Just few months before the liberation, were this first German evacuation. Was a very trying time for me because one part of Poland was liberated half year before I was liberated. I was tempted to run over to the Russian side, or the Russian -- o-or the la -- Jeshuf townoof, and to shorten my time of expectation, meantime I could have been killed. But then I decided it's very risky, even to run to the Russian tine, so I will endure, and take my chances to legal -- to be liberated here, in Krakow, where I survived. And also, I was offered, and requested, by my two companies, the first company vi -- m -- batonin -- isen bentongbal by Wilhelm Langert from Swekow saxon, to evacuate with him and his company. I refused on the grounds that I don't want to leave my motherland, Poland. And the same thing, first I was also requested to evacuate with the second company, Myrader and Krauss, the Viennese company, to evacute -- or evacuate with them to Vienna, and also I refused on the grounds that I don't want to leave my motherland. I felt, why to endanger on my life now, towards the end. I didn't expect the terrible anti-Semitism which was in Poland after liberation. So I decided not to take any chances, but to stay put in Poland. But nights, I always was contemplating if -- what

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 6 should I do? What is the right thing to do? To run to the Russian oc -- and now conquered, liberated territories. And one thing, I don't know if it's important. Well, I -- I learned that I'm a little psychic. My dreams towards the end of the war were that I meet friends. Some friends embraced me, kissed me, were very happy to see me. My dearest friend, my childhood swee -- Julia Logbel, she pushed me away from her all the time. I couldn't understand this, this was in my dreams. After the war, I found out that the people who pushed me away, like Alec Lamenstor, for example, my boyfriend who wanted -- we became fiance, he pushed me away, they were all killed. Unbelievable.

People that didn't survive pushed me away. And people who survived, even that there was not so closed, and I didn't think about them, survived. And I met them after the war, and then I told them, "I knew you were alive, because you aka -- embraced me, you greeted me." So, this was the situation, and --

Q: Did you -- did you feel at the time when you dreamt it, did you interpret it then as a rejection, or did you interpret it as --

A: No, at first rejection. I cried, I -- I felt very badly, and I used to say, "I didn't do anything wrong, why do you push me away?" Like my best friend -- no, I didn't rationalize, only later, when I met, then I understood that this was the reason. So this is just before the liberation, and naturally I had to be double cautious. One way it was easier for me, because according to my assumed things, and false papers, because I was born supposedly in Vilna, I was safer, because if I was caught na -- in -- in this period, first thing they checked with the parish and police. The parish was already in the Russian

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 7 hands. And, on the police, I had a legitimate cancarte made out on the fa -- a-assumed name, but they didn't know it, and the s -- false baptismal paper. So I was safer in this respect, but still I had to be very, very careful. I had many incidents. Like after Myrader and hama -- this beton [indecipherable]. I -- after they evacuated. So I was referred to organization Torte, which built the -- you know, [inaudible] th -- they built -- to protect, you know, ditches, ditches, to protect the armies, and to slow down the onslaught of the approaching enemy. And my boss wanted me to evacuate with them, too. I refused. But there was one employee, an a-accountant. He himself looked Jewish too, German, ricedeutsch. And he said to me, "Fraulein Felitsia, what do you celebrate, Sabbat?" I knew he recognized me, naturally I play dumb. Was still very dangerous period for me, very dangerous. I -- another one -- when -- in the new company, a Ukrainian, who worked in the bookkeeping department, turned to another white Russian, and he said to him, "You know what? I suspect that Felitsia Mewashefsky is a Jewess." And he spoke it in front of the women with whom I lived, who was the daughter -- daughter-in-law of the building where the company was located. And the yow -- white Russian said, "Why do you go for her life? What did she do to you?" So there were some decent people, but still was very dangerous to the last moment.

Q: And then, in a very unexpected way, you met your husband to be. What -- what happened that -- that day?

A: You see, when I was the secretary of the company, Myrader am-and Krauss, my boss, Klammenchitch, who happens be -- was a -- a Yugoslavian German, married to the

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 8 daughter of the owner of the Myrader Krauss do -- Myrader's daughter, and he -- when they were supposed to evacuate and I didn't -- I refused to join them, he came over to me, and he said, "Listen, those are the keys from the safe. We will be back about two thr -- three months. Meanti -- you will manage the office, and you'll pay out the checks." He gave me the checks. Then he told me, "You will get some very important telephone call, and cooperate." But didn't explain what will be the phone call, from whom. Just after I think two or three days, I'm not exact -- so sure now, I got a phone call from the camp's commandanten, from Krakow military camp. And he ha -- just identify if this is the company Myrader and Krauss. I said yavolt. And the command came, "Springen sie de zoilen." Now, the -- I didn't know anything about zoilen. I know -- knew only that my co -- the company built bunkers a-around big office building -- German office. And I didn't know -- I saw the pyramids like form on the main thoroughfares, but I was not -- I-I-I -- informed, and I didn't know that this is the company our built, and those are the zoilen, but I connected immediately. Now, I had to think very fast. Had I been a German, I would have told them that they must do it themselves because my company evacuated.

And then I said, "I can save this city being ruined." A-And -- not that -- a-after all, it is a historic sto -- city, Krakow, but not that all -- all in the Poles, that they helped me to survive. But still, it is the country where I lived. And I was thinking also for -- I analyzed the danger what will be for me, not to tell them to do themselves, and being I was not the only one left in the office. There was -- still was the lady Lydia Lu-Lublevska, the daughter-in-law. There was -- still was maintenance men, two chambermaids, and hi -- USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 9 they didn't ask me who was speaking, so I thought I am not endangering my life, because I can always deny receiving the phone call.

Q: I just want to say for our listeners that the Swengsvi zoilen, the translation is dynamite the columns.

A: Detonate.

Q: Detonate the columns.

A: And so, after a few days, three man came, three knocked ma -- ma -- m --at the gate of the building where ma -- [indecipherable] where the office was, and I told to the m- maintenance man, I told him, "Listen, now be a terrible, unstable situation, very dangerous, because this is now a German section, German building. People may want to come to plunder. They wouldn't know to kill, but definitely to plunder. Don't open the iron gate till I will let you know." So when the three officers came, we -- I saw them through the window, I told him not to open. And they knocked -- then they came again.

When they came again, among them was one officer who looked like a Jew. So I said from this quarter cannot be any danger. So I will find out what they want, and I will explain what it is. So I told the man to open the gate, he let them in, they came to my office, and among them was my present husband Norman Salsitz. Norman was in -- wi -- in a leather coat. Norman looks very Slavic. And after they checked who we are, they dwelt on me, they stop with me. And my husband started, a very nasty in -- interrogation.

Finally, I got very mad. Who I am, I show the ID, it's impossible that I am Felitsia Mewashefsky, a Pole, to be a such sensitive job, that I'm lying. So I said, "If -- so take

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 10 me to your superiors." So he told me, "I am the superior." And thr-threatened me, and to frighten me, he a -- opened his coat where the -- his gun was there, a revolver. And I said, "For God sake, it's towards the end of the war. I don't have to take anything from such a anti-Semite." I got annoyed, and I called the officer who looked Jewish to the other room that I want to talk to him. In the other room when we came, he se -- asked me, "Well, who are you?" I said, "I'm Jewish, I am the same that you are." "How do you know?" I said, "Look at your face." You know, this the saying in Europe. So, "From where are you?" I said, "From Saint Swabof, from where are you?" He said, "I am from Krakow." I said, "Krakow, we had many refugees during the Russian occupation, and one of them I befriended was in my Jewish gimnasium, by the name Oskar Margolies." Lo and behold, this Oskar Margolies was his first cousin. From all the people in the world, what an accountant. Ver -- very emotion from Miskey. Naturally, he ask about his fate, and then we went in. He came over to Norman, and told him to leave me alone, that I'm okay. And he whispered that I am Jewish. Norman didn't believe till he started interrogo-gated me -- interrogating me again, because he knew this Yamen Miskey to be a womanizer, he thought, God knows. And he -- he sta -- th-then somehow, in back of his mind, he said maybe, maybe she is Jewish. And it was very danger -- the situation was not stable to reveal that I am Jewish, because in case the Russians retreat, the Germans come, then they -- I'm exposed as a Jew, and they kill me. Oo -- iha -- it happened many times. So this is one, he decided to be more careful. He ask if I s -- speak other languages. I said yes. "What?" I said, "Russian, German," and I couldn't say Hebrew, because I was afraid

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 11 they will understand. So he switch to his broken English, as little as he knew, what nationality I am. I said I am Jewish. He didn't believe, so he started again about Jewish religion, and -- and custom, and then he asked me [inaudible] about the very sacred day in our Jewish life, Yom Kippur, the big atonement day that every Jew knows, and he asked me what we say on Yom Kippur. When he asked me this question, only a Jew kn- knows. Then I knew that he is Jewish, too. I answered immediately Yom Kippur, then, with tears from my eyes I said, "You too? You too Jewish?" And this is how we met. So then we -- but, because we [indecipherable] he sa -- I told him I speak Hebrew too, and I called him names in Hebrew, I did. So he thought being I'm young, that the Germans taught me Hebrew in order I should spy on Jews and give them out -- not that Iam Jewish, because they have done it. So they taught me Hebrew so perfect in order to fish out the poor Jews who were masquerading as Gentile. So then we switched to Polish, and then he stated the reason why he came. And s -- th -- I said, "Why didn't you tell me right away? Why did I have to go through such interrogation, and you know it?" I was so aggravated. And so | took him to the office across, because the -- those were the living quarters, I took him to -- across the hall, to the office, and I gave him the plans of the pyramids, of the columns that were erected, because there was a master plan, so they didn't -- they could deton -- detonate it. And this is how I met Norman. Started with hate.

He actually came to kill me, and as matter of fact, they were discussing who is the one who will kill me, because they were afraid after I give the plans I can get in touch with the ca -- m-military commandant, and tell them already that they have the plans. A-And

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 12 even my husband felt badly because it came upon him to kill, and he felt he never killed a woman, even if she's German, even all his sisters were killed by the Germans, all his gra -- nieces and nephews, but still he couldn't bring himself. So this is the story. From hatred, for wanted to kill me, we fell in love, we got married, and here we are, married, will be in October, 54 years.

Q: Let's tal -- [inaudible] just a tiny little bit more [inaudible]. Let's -- let's speak a little bit more about what happened then, though. Your -- your courtship developed over a period of time. He was busy, you were doing things. Ex-Explain a little bit more about th- the time [indecipherable]

A: Actually, mine -- I ha -- this was also something. I was of age, 22, when the Polish army drafted women to the army. And the army was actually under the Communist authority, you know, they were satellites. And -- and that's why I didn't want to go. So the first thing, I went to -- at that time he was Tadoush Szaleski, in the high position, and I said, "I don't want to be drafted." And, also they wanted to expel me from this beautiful German apartment, and -- a woman. So he put his name, that he lives there. Then, I wanted to continue with my studies. I wanted to go to medical school, that's what I planned. So, Norm -- it was very hard to get into medical school, s -- priority had only the one who started already. So Norman, because of high position, was able for me to work out, I should be accepted. Because they said they had certain number of places for students who are Communist. If I will declare that I am a Communist, I am accepted.

And I told Norman, "I never was, I'm not, and for this I will not put the ti -- I am in order

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 13 to be accepted." But because of his connections, and high position, I was accepted. But I had to go through ast -- extra -- you know, old subjects, because I didn't have any papers.

I had to take all the exams, [indecipherable] from -- to make my matriculation, I was accepted. But then, Norman couldn't stay in Krakow because of his position, and he traced a lot of Akar, Poles from the national government in London, whose aim was to get rid of Germans and Jews, and kill the lot. So Norman discovered many, so the ha -- the ground was too hot for him. And I was able to obta -- obtain for him a transfer to -- first to Lipnitsa Breslau, a -- but we didn't want to stay in Poland. So I was not busy, my -- actually what I occupied myself, I tried to help the people who came out from concentration camp, in tatters, hungry, starving, till it was organized, till they could get some help from o -- Jewish organization. So Norman supplied for me, and I used to go -- I used to find them from Plaszew, living in one room, four or five, sick, emaciated, bringing food, helping. And others -- and through grapeline they found out that I have clothes I can give them, and they used to come. So was mostlal welfare. Not official, but wel-welfare. And then in Breslau, I could have enrolled again to medical school, but I saw the anti-Semitism in Poland, and I felt it's a Communist Poland. I didn't survive the war to go from one jail to another. And my only goal and strength to survive was to be reunited with my family that I had at that time in Palestine, from Germany. My grandmother, my sister, my mother's brothers, cousins, uncles. So this gave me the strength, but I -- because I knew, although I'm the sole survivor from the family who was in Poland during the Holocaust, but I am not an orphan completely, because I still had a

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 14 good maternal grandmother and uncles in Palestine at that time, and I will be able to be reunited with them. So I felt, how can I stay in Poland? Here I endanger my life, because the Poles started the pogroms, killing of Jews. Personna non grata. This is not a reason why I survived. And because legally we couldn't leave Poland, so we escaped illegally to Munich. So this is -- otherwise there were gatherings with struyas -- survivors, and really we felt like family, like blood relations because we were -- like Imann, he lost everybody, but didn't have even a brother, anyone. At least I had, they didn't. So we clung to each other. We sha -- we looked for solace in each other's arms. So this was till we escaped -- till I arranged a escape. First my husband, because my brother-in-law decided that he has a store, and has to liquidate. So the wife doesn't belong to the husband. I had to stay with my older brother-in-law, till he liquidates me, then my husband escaped. I arranged for him. And later we found -- we were supposed to meet in the Jewish communion house in Munich, but unfortunately, my husband was not there. After I struggled, after I almost got killed crossing illegally the border, because I brought some of our belongings.

Q: Maybe we should stop here to flip over. [indecipherable] This is the end of tape one, side A, with Amalie Salsitz.

End of Tape One, Side A Beginning Tape One, Side B

Q: This is a continuation of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Amalie Salsitz. This is tape number one, side B. Before we go on to what happened afterwards, I would just like to ask you about liberation. So often the word suggests a

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 15 beautiful, brief moment. That was the moment of liberation. But the feelings were more complicated for you, were they not?

A: Yes.

Q: Can you speak a little bit more about the liberation, and having survived? What did that mean to you?

A: One way, again, I decided I have to survive, to bear witness, in spite of Hitler's theory, but when I found myself liberated, and you couldn't stop and question, where are my loved ones? You couldn't accept it. Why I? Why not my sister, the lovely Celia, 17 ye -- years co -- killed. Why not my beautiful mother, 41 years old? Why not my father, 45 years old? Not speaking about my cousins, uncles, and not speaking of my dear friends, my childhood friends. So it -- it was a mixed feeling, one laced with like guilt, why I -- why was I chosen? And then, naturally, relief, that finally it's over, and I can be a free person, and I can do, and -- and not -- threat of death, the Damocles sword over my head, that was for me since "41 till deg45. But it was not the real joy, not like that you would accomplished something very big, because the price you pay for it.

Q: How -- how did you decide where to go, to po -- where to go?

A: My only stand -- I mentioned was the knowledge that I still have family in Palestine at that time. So naturally, the choice was I have to be reunited with them. But, when it was proven, when we escaped from -- to Germany, and because of the policy of Great Britain, was not permitted to immigrate to Palestine, I didn't want to risk again, and to be caught - - sent to Cyprus, a-and God knows for how long, and then to Palestine. So I felt all roads

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 16 are leading to Rome. Doesn't matter which I take. Being that Jews had an opportunity to - - under joint certific -- group certificate to immigrate to United States, I decided to take what comes first, and then I will go to Palestine. What I have done. Now, to United States is a story I must tell you. We know we cannot stay in Germany. Each face I scrutinized, I couldn't look -- and it was a terrible emotional -- terrible emotional for me, because everyone I looked, is this the killer? Is this the killer of my parents, my family, my sister, my beloved ones? Oh, we knew we cannot stay in Germany. We tried to make it as brief as possible, but in order to immigrate to United States, we needed papers to get visa.

Ironically, the Germans who applied had all the papers, they didn't have any difficulties, and they were processed very fast. We survivors, who didn't have any papers, or the one who survived the concentration camp. Or like I, who had to leave everything, any scrap of paper which will identify me, and be under assumed, I didn't, so we couldn't be processed, we couldn't be -- get -- obtain a visa. So finally, my husband and I, we decided to approach the general council, explain the situation, what it is, and that something must be done. Some Jews bribed the secretary -- again, who was the secretary?

A German Christian. And they -- some -- she let them go -- approach to co -- to present it to their ambassador of council. So one day, lunch time, we accosted the general council, by the name Clark, and we ask him in our English, broken English, that 1-if -- for audience, we want to explain some situation. After we explain to him, he got up, he was very tall. He put his hands on our heads, and said, "Now, set children must come to United States." He changed the law that it is far -- enough if two eye witnesses, notarized,

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 17 will give testimony that they know the person, where it ca -- was born and when. And this will be accepted. So, in a way, we changed the law. And we helped a lot of survivors this way. So finally, when our papers came through -- meantime was very hard for my husband too, because -- in the trolley cars and the many compiljamas -- complaints, so many -- so many refugees, that they brought them as slave workers was okay. So my husband started fights, fistfights, killi -- you know, he got bruised, he will not let it go. I souta -- so the ground is very hot, we have to leave. So luckily, after we got the visa, we were sent to the camp -- immigration camp in Bremenhaven, but we have to stay there for half year because in United States was a coal strike. So till we be able to leave, it was January.

Q: How did you live during that time? Who -- who gave you food or clothes [indecipherable]

A: Many, many Jews were in DP camps, so Joint supported. I somehow avoided camps, I just didn't want to go to the camps. | -- I d -- wasn't doin -- in the camp during the war -- I masqueraded, I lived openly, I didn't. So we lived on our resources. The black market was flourishing, so we got cigarettes, we bought food, we bought clothing, and this how we sustained ourselves. In Munich again, many of my schoolmates who survived -- ma -- not many survived. Many -- I will say, five, four, the m -- enrolled in UNRRA University. A -- being I knew I cannot stand in Germany, I will not be able with my husband. So I didn't enroll, and when the time came, we immigrated to United States.

And from United States, luckily of my schooling, I was able to become a Hebrew teacher,

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 18 and at "49, they had the first chartered plane to Hebrew University in Jerusalem for Hebrew teachers, to supplement their -- and enrich their knowledge in Hebrew. So we decided to go to be among them, although we didn't have even still, citizen paper. We had only the green papers, we caused a lot of trouble for the whole group, because each time we were the -- they were detained because of us, still they checked thoroughly, they didn't like it so much. But finally -- and this is when we came, in "49, to Pala -- Israel [indecipherable] was Israel state after the war of liberation, where I had the reunion with my sister, my grandmother, with my uncles, with the whole family, and Norman with his brother. And, it was a very moving, touching, naturally, situation. And when I shared with them my experience, they just couldn't believe such atrocity took place. They thought -- and my sister, who left in deg39, who survived in Palestine, marrying palestin -- British subject, she thought that I got a nervous breakdown. She ju -- they just couldn't accept. Yes, they knew that my mother wa-was killed, but also the atrocities, only when this was Eichmann trial televised, I got a long letter from my sister Babka, apologizing for not understanding, and not being able to accept or comprehend it. On -- after so many witnesses testified, and she -- now she learned that this was true, she felt so guilty, so badly. But this what happened to us survivors, all of them. So the job for the deniers in the beginning was easy, because nobody could understand the atrocities.

Q: I would li -- PIl come back to is -- to Israel again, because I have some follow up questions, but let's go back to the time when you arrived. How did you go to the United States? By boat?

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 19

A: This is another story, terrible one. W -- Joint paid for us for passage like any other passenger, tourist class, not first class. We were women assigned 48 to one cabin, three tiers ba -- bunks. Men were hundred on the C deck, like cockroaches on the floor, on the C deck. Germans who got papers got second class and first rate accommodation. First class not the same money, but the others, they were just assigned a family to a cabin.

Norman, my husband, got very, very sick, seasickness. It was very rough weather, this was 14 days in the crossing. So, after three days, when he was completely dehydirted -- dehydrated, I decided to dress him up as a woman. I gave him a scarf, and a dress, and I arranged with another survivor that I will give him my bunk, and I will sleep with her. As a matter of fact, she is here, United States. And her name was Zwotorilka Zwotto. So when they checked the cabins, if there is not socializing, because we were not permitted with our -- to be with our spouses, like the Germans. We were women separated. So -- in different even dining room. So there was a woman with a scarf, and they didn't know.

This how we passed. Tor -- as a matter -- he wished he should -- death upon him. After what you went through, s -- he was so seasick. But the last day, when we s -- were told that we are approaching the Statue of Liberty, and -- New York harbor, natural we dressed up all in our best, and we went on the deck. And this was some moment, seeing the Statue of Liberty, the torch, the liberty. Ah -- we were elated, finally we are liberated.

We came -- we atrived, we didn't have to go to Ellis Island, because at that time they checked us in Germany, in the special office of immigration, and when we arrived at the pier, they grouped us according to the alphabet. Staying there under the S, Salsitz, a guy

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 20 in lumberjacket comes -- approaches me again, and asks me if I know a family sal -- Salishitz, he's supposed to come. I said, "We are Salishitz." It was Norman's second cousin. Being he had an [indecipherable] across this pier, he knew everybody, and he got the permission to enter, and to be the first one who greeted us, and outside was waiting Norman's brother Al, who immigrated the year when Norman was born, i -- to United States, and his family was very emotional, and very warm, and this brother took us to his house. Well, we stated for a month, I think, till we got our apartment. But about a house, another story. In my dreams -- it's unbelievable, I never thought about United States, because my whole family in Palestine, and I thought that after liberation, we'll go straight there. I saw a red brick house. I never had seen such style of house in my town in Poland.

When we approached the house in Brooklyn, tomor -- in Flatbush, where Norman's brother Al lived, this was the house. And I too -- pointed to him. He said, "How do you know?" I said, "I saw it in my dreams." I never thought -- I had never been -- and, like I said, I never thought after liberation that I will be in United States. So we stayed with him for a month, then by coincident, traveling on the subway, we were approached by the old -- elder man Italia. His name was Rosario. With broken English he asked us who are we, and so. And we told him that we are survivors, refugees, and we are looking for apartment. He offered his apartment -- he was by 72 years old. He said he never became a citizen. His wife and family are still in Italy, and he sa -- decided now to reun -- to reunite with them, so he offered his apartment for nothing, rent-free, so long he stay still, to share with us. And this how we got the first apartment, where also Norman's cousin lived, and

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 21 the daughter. And the cousin, it's by coincidence you -- she came -- she was a widow, she was brought by this cousin who -- the lumberjacket -- Jack Rodbot at the pier. She was brought over very -- she was a widow. Very nice woman, and she taught me how to cook.

Her daughter Regina offered -- found for me the first job, and for Norman. For Norman he wor -- walked to the ink company that he hated. It's was physical, and he thought he will get crazy, because didn't absorb -- his mind had to be busy, especially a big shot in Poland after the war, here he's mixing ink with another two black men, he thought he will get crazy. And she got me a job in the tie factory. But I had to sit with my head down, and m -- probably not nourish enough, my blood used to come I -- from my nose all the time. On top of it, she said I even don't make minimum quota of ties. She said, "Look, I would like to keep you." She was a German refuge. So I quit the job. And I said, "For God's sake, my parents spent so much money on my Hebrew education. I'm a qualified teacher, why not look in this field?" And this how I got a job, half year later, in the first Hebrew school, in -- on Avenue P, Magen Davide. And then I switched to another one, which was a very religious school for boys in Borapart ats haim. And this how star -- I started on my career as a teacher, which I just quit 15 years ago. And I was doing -- and very happy, and quite successful, because for 10 years, I didn't have any children. My whole love to children went to my schoolch -- pupils, and they felt it. Children feel it.

And they reciprocated. It was a beautiful relationship. As a matter of fact, I was able to handle the hardest cases the principal gave me. I think because of my love and understanding. They used to wait for me after la -- lessons, to talk to me. And they had USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 22 problems, because this was the time the divorces. It affected very much the children, and they talked to me about it, and I patiently listened. I had cases where the student from first grade ask me if I will wait for him, he gets older, he wants to marry me. You know the stories. And waiting -- walking me to school. It was really love. My chil -- my daughter was born --

Q: Did you want -- had -- did you want children?

A: In the beginning, no. I was not ready. In the beginning, I felt what will I teach my child. She will ask me about her grandparents, everything. To lie I didn't want. They didn't die, they were killed. Teach your child. When it's three, starts asking kill, who? By Hitler, cruel man. Where is God? God is our father. Why did he permit it? Why didn't he protect us? Which, later, I encountered. So I didn't want that. I was not emotionally ready, I didn't want. But then when, finally, I decided I did -- I think it was by three or four years after the war, we decided to have a child. So it didn't come as we wanted. As a matter of fact, it took us ta -- our daughter was born to our 11th anniversary. Meantime, we want to adopt. We were refused, because medically we were found able to have children. And when we couldn't even if -- we approached the black market. The same time I was pregnant three months with my daughter, I got a phone call from Philadelphia that they have a baby girl for our adopt. But naturally, I didn't accept it. First of all, I said,

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 23 what right do I have to do it? Another parent who cannot have a child, and I am having.

And what will do to raise two children, one mine, and no -- will have to be mine. So I declined, and this is when my daughter was born, and then we had problems.

Q: Yeah, I wi -- I will make that connection to -- to the problems. One more question.

Were people in America at that time ready to hear about your experiences, and did you want to talk about them?

A: No, the people were not ready, they didn't want. They felt guilty for number of years, Jews, and non-Jews. Jews were also complaining that they had had ration card, they suffered. They didn't have enough meat and sugar. And they felt guilty that they didn't do too much. Th -- like the black people marches to Washington and everything? Not.

There was only one group, the very Orthodox Jews, and they saved some Jews. So they didn't want to hear about it. Norman was ready to talk about it all the time. I saw the lack of understanding in the first years, so I decided what to waste my time, and emotional to open my wounds all the time, I decided to wait, when it's right. But in school I had to because they started teaching about the Holocaust, but you s --

Q: When was this?

A: In school that they started to teach? I think "50, "51, deg52. And also, when -- you see now how I get emotional. So I used to cry. I didn't want to, I couldn't control. So I reduce as much as possible [indecipherable] I talked. So then did we decided after all -- and Norman spoke and told all the time. And so are -- we decided we have to write a book, because after all, why did we survive, if not to bear witness for the victims? We

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 24 must share our experience. And naturally there was -- they crept up, the deniers, the revisionists. So we said, if we will not do anything about it, they will win. So this where we started. Now, we had bad experiences, too. Not so much I, like Norman. You know when you among educated people, professional people, you accepted. And it doesn't matter. Like you, it doesn't matter if you have a accent or not, you're accepted. But when you go -- first he was a peddler -- lower class, blue collar. Why did you survive? How comes you -- you are alive? Why aren't you ne -- any misunderstanding, anything, why weren't you not gassed? You know how painful it was? So he went through a lot. As a matter of fact, in the beginning, he wanted even to commit suicide. He just couldn't accept. The family was not warm either. Again, I was lucky. I had only here a fa -- my father's brother's family. The oldest one, from Berlin, they left in "38, the last ship. And I was received beautiful, till today. My aunt -- although her husband was -- she was divorced from him, she took me in like a child, and she made sure that her children accepted me as a child of the family. There was not Friday dinner, any holiday, that she didn't include. So much that her har -- son Leor, who graduated in Berlin, but he went here to Columbia, he was -- he is a artist, commercial artist, he was later director very big com -- advertising company, Beore. He was single. On every date, he took Norman and I.

He's the one who took us all over, any concert. Tavern on the Green, to Carnegie Hall, Radio City, explained the architecture. Beautiful, felt family. On my mother's side, my grandmother's -- Rifka Genga's sister, Esther Inglestein, when she found out we don't have any religious wedding, to her it's blasphemy, sin. We lived in sin. She made the

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 25 wedding in her apartment, by t -- she invited about 20 people. The rabbi was a cousin who officiated, and her oldest son Harold, till today, now he's 89 -- there was, when his wife was even alive, Doris, she was for -- she immigrated from Vienna, actual -- re- refugee -- oh, it was in deg38, like family, again. A-Any family gathering, any holiday. So we had a home. Norman had a tremendous family here. Only the poor uncle, his father's brother, Uncle Shulamoon, he is the one who cared, who wanted the vano -- to get the job, to find a job for Norman, was always in touch, was very warm. But his children, and so many others, they didn't even invite us for dinner. Only later on, when we became successful, suddenly we got phone calls. So Norman was very disappointed.

Q: How did you feel -- did you get -- did you try to get help, or to talk to somebody else about it? It sounds as if you two were really just --

A: No.

Q: How did you help Norman with his feelings about [indecipherable]

A: We survivors. This is why we kept -- we were very comfortable only with survivors.

They -- the Americans didn't want us, we didn't care for them, because they didn't understand us, it was waste of time. Very superficial. We couldn't get used to it, hi, how are you, and running, even not waiting for the answer. And I love you superficially, killed us. We were the most comfortable with survivors. As a matter of fact, when from Brooklyn we moved to New Jersey, I met a friend in the mountains, Viennese refugee, Edith Geller, happens we were in the same hotel. We befriended, we became like sisters.

Very comfortable. I moved here. Only two families were of survivors, the rest all

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 26 Americans, God knows how many generations, Jews, and non-Jews, they are the same. I moved here because I taught not far from here, so -- and I wanted also -- we wanted a community where everybody's starts from beginning, not [indecipherable] anybody asks from where did you come. The --

Q: Where's here? Here is --

A: Springfield. Because they came from Newark, and Elizabeth, all over, so everybody was new, not only we. We started. But whom did we befriend? There was a pediatrician, a survivor. She was my age, again we were like sisters. We loved each other so much.

She was only 39 when she died. She got cancer on the breasts, she had two little children.

She just built up her practice, and it spread all over. On her dying bed, one in the morning, my -- her husband called me to come to the hospital. She was in a tent. She was in coma, but she was very restless. I came. I said, "It's Manya. Everything okay." She held my hand. She quiet down, and she died. But that -- you see, we have very intensive feeling, or we like, or we don't care. We just don't go for acquaintances, we don't care.

And there was another family that -- also survivors, Gershwin. From Mamil and from Wachau, we befriended. Later, we moved in more -- I think by -- we are now by eight survivors family. Some [indecipherable] out, but the closest relationship, w-we have. And also, we survivor, we get together. It's like family. As a matter of fact, it was very hard on my child, because she wanted happier people. She was tired already. She didn't know how to cope about killing, surviving, everybody sharing their experience. So she adopted other grandparents from my neighbor, who the grandparents were born already in the USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 27 States. And they died now, they would be now a hundred years old, her best friends. And when she got married, I guess also the selection was she didn't want the child of survivor.

She met -- her husband is fifth generation American Jew. Family, family, she [indecipherable] Norman.

Q: When did you -- when did you start talking to her?

A: It -- unfortunately too early. Not I. My husband. I warned him. Okay, she ask question, naturally, why -- where are my grandparents? Every weekend grandparents coming, everybody showered with love, with toys, where are mine? So, I had to tell her.

And it was hard for her to accept, poor child. And so the only relief was -- this is why we traveled so often to Israel, because there was my sister. No, she never met my grandmother, she was born after my grandmother died. But my sister and family. So when my sister's children said, "Let's go to grandma." Because they had their grandmother on paternal side, who immigrated when my brother-in-law, in deg35, or deg34 to Israel. She said, "We don't have any grandparents. Why do you say grandma?" So I had to explain her, she was a child, that there's two parts, father and so. And we took her there to kindergarten, and we wanted her to get the real warmth from uncle, and -- and from cousins, and so she suffered very much.

Q: This is the end of tape one, side B, interview with Amalie Salsitz.

End of Tape One, Side B USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 28 Beginning Tape Two, Side A

Q: This is a continuation of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Amalie Salsitz. This is tape number two, side A. Now, I would like to go back -- or we ha -- actually just been in Israel so to speak, when you introduced your daughter to -- to the family. Could you speak a little bit more about what did you expect, what was your dream? Your family was Zionist, it was your dream to go there. What did you expect, and what did you see? What were the different -- what was different, the expectations, what -- in what shape was the country, how were survivors perceived, how did you feel?

A: How the survivors were received, I don't know, because I came from United States. I only know what I heard from some, and what I read in the press. And so I wouldn't like discuss because it's hearsay and people [indecipherable] from the press themselves.

Q: But you as a survivor, how were you --

A: But it's different, because I was from the United States, and I didn't deprive the Israelis from their income, what they felt any newcomer does. It's a big difference. And so I will not speak, because my family, naturally, was very happy. Why it was happy?

Well, the reunu-ion was in "49. We came with the tour to settle, this what was our aim, in Israel. We are happy, it's finally a state, and finally we have someplace to go when they chase us out, not like n-no door was open for us, even you know, the big boat that they sent back, and not one, only how my uncle was saying, and he was on the Struma, and you know, Saint Louis, and all this. So finally, we felt we a nation, we have home. If God forbid one country decides to persecute the Jews -- I'm not talking already about USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 29 genocide, but this a safe haven where Jews can run and go. Now, when we came in 49, and we expressed our desire to settle, this was the time the country was very, very poor.

And they didn't have -- really each citizen, each took away from the other. So my uncle, especially the oldest brother of my mother, Max Gengar, childless, he said to me -- and he was quite well off, be -- he came there in 1922, he had -- 1919. Then "22 he had to escape because he was kill -- an Arab wanted to kill him, he killed him, so he escaped to Germany, back to his brothers. He advised us, he said, "You are very young." At that time, "49, so I was 27, and my husband was 29. He said, "You young, you have to start your life. Why don't you start it really, in United States, where the possibilities are better, and larger, and you will be able to help us out in Israel." And this what we accepted, and I must say modestly, humbly, we have done it. My sister, who struggled terribly, we are able to send her children to a univer -- give education, because in Israel is only mandatory I think five or six grades, and then we are able to pay for their studies for high school. And naturally all s -- all the necessities. My sister lived on the farm with children, primitive. We bought -- I didn't have at that time a Frigidaire, I had the icebox in Brooklyn, and a -- Frigidaire, she had two children, I sent a washing machine, just to help her out, because again, she came from such a very comforta -- [ringing]

Q: The telephone.

A: But we could let --

Q: Do you want --

A: Yeah, we couldn't -- I couldn't have it.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 30

Q: Okay, let -- let's stop for a second.

A: And I will take it off.

Q: Yes, mm-hm.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay, continue.

A: So -- so we decided this what we have done, and we were able to help with a wedding, with everything. And you know, if they were in [indecipherable] village, so they didn't get any money. They needed a house, they needed to buy. We were able to help her. And especially 10 years we didn't have any children, and I had a steady job as a teacher, and I got -- I was very well paid for the times. Norman was able, because of my salary later, to quit the job in the ink factory, and he went into peddling, on installment. He went to the Polish section, which was here in New Jersey, Jersey City. And he looks like a Pole, and they thought he is Polish, and Norman doesn't wear a wedding band, probably you noticed, so he was single, on the market. Any woman who wanted, really, thought she has chances with him, this is Norman. So this is the story. So he got customers, and he started making money, and I with my teaching, we -- and then, he started very small items, then naturally he gained confidence from people, he was able -- lately he selled new -- to newlyweds, furnished them, everything. He [indecipherable]. But then he had enough, and he switch, he decided now -- real estate, building development was flourishing, so he decided to switch into this field, but naturally he didn't know anything about it, like he didn't know about -- anything about furnishing people, too. So nights he went to school USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 31 to learn to be a decorator, and here he -- being now he had the capital, so he took ina German -- an Italian builder. The builder didn't have any money, but he taught him, and they worked together. So this how he learned. He started, and he flourished, he built. And it's first few houses, then bigger, and so on.

Q: Before we go, we stay in the United States and -- and talk a lit-little bit more about your life, then I will have one more question with regard to Israel. Did you feel Jewish in a special way, in a different way than you had before entering the United States?

A: No comparison. Here I am among mine. I am not a minority. Do you n -- I -- no one who didn't go through it doesn't understand the feeling to be a minority, and be picked, always sacrificial lamb for anything goes wrong. Here I among -- I'm e-equal to others.

And this such a wonderful feeling. I -- and so proud, and especially I was privileged to watch the development of this county since "49. At least every two years we were there, from the very hard times, economically how the county built up, and physically from the desert how cities flourished and built up. And how people really, also, were able to live differently, and the culture. One thing is always very nice, high standard, how people were informed, well-read, and in the pleasure to discuss with them. And there's a pride, pride to be among people equal -- intellectual people, very bright people. Even they are algart. But this is the thing, the characteristic of the Jews. And -- and pushy, because otherwise they wouldn't survive. But you accept it, but you are proud what you see, what they achieved. And anybody tries to downtrod, even when the state was proclaimed, you know, the American wanted to actually is -- dissolve it, and to say Israel stop, you know,

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 32 to exist, you know, because of the Arabs. And oil, do -- we surrounded with Arabs, always the danger. They wanted to throw, and still want to throw it to the sea. So there is a feeling -- I feel responsible. I remember when the Six Day War was, how I cried. I wanted to bring all the children, because of security. I was afraid, so many armies, what will happen? They will squash, they will kill. So I had wanted to save the children at least, but thank God, it was very successful. Then the Yom Kippur War, I lived through it, okay? I share the fate of the Israelis. Every election, every news. It's very important to me, the security of the country.

Q: How do you feel then, and that is the last question, but it's an important [indecipherable] how do you feel then about right now the situation, what with the peace negotiations, they -- the direction taken?

A: Lam not happy because I don't trust. I believe what Arafat said, what he says to the Arabs. It's a piecemeal. He wants part, whatever he can get it, without the war, then he will be strong, and he feels he -- he wants really, to erase this -- the state of Israel. He will do a favor, he will permit some Jews to stay, maybe. And this scares me, very much so.

And the pressure from the world, in order to appease this oil, the Arab oil, the Saudi oil, the pressure they put on Israel to make concessions, when they know that the concessions endanger the security of the land, yes. I am very unhappy about it.

Q: Let's go to America then, and let me ask you this. Do you remember -- not the moment, of course, but -- but sort of the time when you began to feel comfortable with your identity as Americans, and what did that mean to you, to be American?

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 33

A: Who doesn't like to have a rich father, who doesn't like to be from something very successful like United States? And not always I'm so proud, because I am still critical. I lo -- don't like the bully. Iam very unhappy now with the situation with Kosovo, not that [indecipherable] had to be stopped, but definitely not by bombs, not by breaking sovanti of a county. I don't like it. And I'm afraid it may backfire, because now this is the biggest, strongest bully in the world, and if the Russians are pushed too hard -- they don't have the means now, but they still have atom -- nuclear, and if they are pushed too much, and knowing the Russians, they will never forgive it -- United States, how it was treated.

Now, with NATO, and entering s -- Yugoslavia, Serbs, and everything, I am afraid that may backfire. I learned history repeats himse -- itself. Look the Roman empire, Hellenistic empire, Britain, the big ones. They reach the peak, and then it goes down. I will not live to see, and I hope my children and grandchildren will not live, but unfortunately, this is how history is. And we shouldn't pay for the mistakes we making.

Hurts me that we Americans are not to like around the world, because we bully everybody. This hurts me, because really, it's the only democracy, not the best, but is the best comparing to others, and the opportunities and the freedom, it gives everybody, according to abilities. The only thing really what a newcomer cannot be is a president.

But take Kissinger, take others. If you're just capable -- take us. After all, with no help from anybody, we are very comfortable. All the doors -- I must say almost all the doors were open to us. Okay, my was Jewish education, my husband was self-employed. No doors closed. I see my son-in-law, brilliant, he was accepted to Harvard, he is working,

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 34 he is on staff of Harvard Hospital. My daughter is a lawyer. She could have been the biggest one if she wanted. The doors are open, according to your ability. It's -- now they start little bit a quota, but it wasn't a quo -- when I came was still the quota, Norman's nephew was a quota, because then, when he wanted to go, I remember, he was accepted to -- to Columbia, and there was a quota, but no more. Now they start little bit, but it's very high position, I am very proud again, how many Jews achieved very high positions now. They couldn't before. And so I am proud that -- watching the progress. I'm proud that I am a country which is not controlled by the church, and this why I wi -- we selected to come here, not to Latin America. Why I mentioned la -- South America, because argen -- Argentina was my bro -- father's brother, who immigrated from Stanislawow in "28, and he was quite well off, established. Unfortunately, when I came to United States, a year later he died, age 45 on cancer of stomach. But he wanted to bring us over to Argentina, and I said, "Nevermore I go to a country, especially a Catholic country, and controlled by the church." And thank God, here is the country, if I don't like I can speak up. And if anybody tells me -- like, I had the neighbor here, German descendent, Mr.

Spiegel, Charlie. And once our dogs had fight when I had the dog. He said, "You Jew, you go to Palestine." And I said, "You German, go to Germany." So everybody came from someplace, doesn't matter if you was born here. The only really Americans are the Indians, so it's a wonderful feeling. You're not afraid to speak up. And if somebody insults you, you're just free to fight back.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 35

Q: Ihave a few other questions, but it seems to be the moment to ask you -- we had talked about Amalie Petrenka in the beginning, who she was. We had talked about Felitsia Mewashefsky. Now we are talking who is Amalie Salsitz. Is that who you are then?

A: Yeah. The only question I have to know, Amalie Salsitz, now presently a old woman, who retired, who lives just to -- for pleasant things, to -- as much as she can take out of life, or the Amalie who came, because of there's a big difference. The one who arrived had to est -- had to establish herself. Without no help from anybody. So she had to be aggressive. She felt satifyy -- satisfied, accomplished, because in her profession she was very happy. As a mother having a daughter, a good daughter, the relationship was nice.

There was some, like daughter mother missed, but straight in the time of the drugs, my daughter was not. She was in Boston, age 17, she graduated earlier. She became a lawyer.

I'm happy, successful, and there's respect. I am not a very active person. I love -- "ma very private person, luckily, because Norman has to be at every organization, at every meeting, but not only to be a member -- a member, a paid member I am also. B'Nai Brith, Hadassah, Sisterhood. But I don't -- I come very seldom, unless it's something very important. Otherwise I prefer my privacy, my book I enjoy immensely, I lose myself. I like the privacy, also maybe -- maybe there's the reaction to the war time, when I didn't have a private corner where I could be myself, and I realized this is why I'm such need of privacy. Like so many, especially women, like to dine in the restaurants, and this is the biggest thing, go away for a weekend. I like my meals when I cook, not that I am such a

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 36 good cook, and not that I love to cook. But I have my home. Because during the war again, I only had eat with the ration card, masquerading as a Gentile. In the restaurant, bring the potato in the restaurant, and I longed for a cook -- home-cooked meal. I remember when my landlady was making her soup, the aroma, the fragrance, and I ask, my goodness, will it be time when I will be able to make my own soup, my own tea? This probably shaped me. So till now, like I said, I like the privacy. I like people very much, but I'm as happy when I'm by myself. It's not that I have to be beneath. Again, like Norman functions the best, he's a ham when there's a lot of people. When he doesn't have a big group, at least four people listeners, he likes to sulk little bit, and sul -- and really y-you wouldn't believe the joker, the storyteller than can be so quiet, that home you have to pry out from him a sentence. But most comedians are that way, I heard from other women too, that they're so good when they entertain, but home they don't open their mouth. So -- and -- but I am content. I love to be with my family. Naturally, with my daughter means the whole world to me. My grandsons. And even I have relationship from the beginning with my cousin Petrenka. He is now 70, and he's a year and a half older than Iam. As much as we can, we spend holidays together -- together. It's harder to travel. And also with my friends still from home, I'm still in touch, whoever is alive.

They moved now, many of them to Florida, because they're old. Some are older. One -- one is 89, wa -- or 80. I have only my friend, to -- two that are my age. Mostly they were in the woods, they were married. But we in touch, and again, it's like family. And on the phone, I -- I don't like to call too much. I told -- I think I mentioned to you. I don't have

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 37 the patience to talk too much on the phone, but I will call to check how they are doing. I like celebrations. You know, at to -- attend when sp -- especially from family. It means a lot to me. Like se -- Thanksgiving, on my daughter, or my cousin Leo Petrenka's daughter, she makes it, Joyce, in her house, means a lot to me. I don't like big gatherings when the people are strange. Like my daughter ha -- Norman likes a lot of people. And when we go there for Passover, she has at least 32 people. So it means -- we are only by seven family, the rest are friends. I don't mind close friends, 15 people, but the friends bring -- but she invites with their parents, total strangers. And I feel a celebration of holiday, I want with close people. So I stopped going, and I gave a ultimatum. All you make for family. I'd rather go to Joyce here in Long Island. I don't want to come holiday and meet a lot of strange people. And this is how to celebrate. But remarkably, and astonishly, I read in the Jewlson Post that the survivors as in Israel, was an article complain about the same thing. When they go to celebrate family with family, there is no family, because so many, and they are not too com -- not comfortable, but not so happy.

They want the warmth. We are missing, lacking the warmth, family warmth. And --

Q: I would just like to say in between, that we are getting a little bit wind against the microphone, but Amalie needs the -- the air coming through the window to -- to keep speaking, and to be comfortable, so we'll just stay here, and now and then this little funny sound is simply the wind through the window. And it's very hot. I just want our listeners to know that. And I do have -- I interrupted you. Would you -- would you continue, or I have another question I will ask.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 38

A: Go ahead. And I covered it.

Q: Yeah. Okay.

A: So you heard I like to read very much. I like theater. Like, for example, S-Sunday we are going to see, The Gathering, with Theodore Bickel. It's excellent. Few years ago, just few years, there was not a Broadway show. But only drama, or musical, I don't go for comedy too much. On the way to [indecipherable] all this. I don't go. I go for drama, or musical that we didn't see.

Q: What kind of books do you like?

A: | like -- first of all are historical biographies, historical books. Biographies, there is not book on Holocaust that I didn't read, although they say we shouldn't do it, but I am like a drunkard who goes to the closet with the bottles. I have to read every one. And -- but I don't care so much just novels. I do from time to time, but most of my books, I will show you, are historical. This how I learned about American history, because when I learned English, I was taught about the British English -- history, but not the American. So actually, I filled up the gap, not taking a course in college, but by reading historical biographies. And I like -- also I like very much gardening, and naturally I am exercise fan. I -- every day -- every day religiously, oh of -- regardless of weather, I walk for a half hour. By the way, my doctors now, my age, compliment me very much, because I'm not exactly a healthy person. Blood pressure, and -- and I have a high cholesterol, and I have an enlarged heart, and I have all -- that is set. If not that I walk every day, I wouldn't be alive. My arteries would be clogged, and also my density of bone is not so bad for the

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 39 age. It is naturally -- I have osteoporize, because anyone in the age, but according to my age, it's not bad, because of the walk. I like to exercise, I like to walk, but most important, I must have a lot of fresh air. I cannot be cooped up, I'm like a fish without water. Even in wintertime. I got [indecipherable] I fall, it's slippery, but I walk. You see, I cannot be in close p-place, like we wa -- we -- we like to go -- we go for cruises, but I had to cut out, because it's not properly ventilated, and I come home with infection in my bronchial tubes. So the price is too high. So I always have a open window, even in wintertime, next to my bed, then I can breathe. But I help myself.. And like any woman in the golden age, I don't complain, I get up. And still I live longer than my mother, 41. I always look like this. And my father, my sister 17. So, after the war, every year was given to me. Every birthday, I appreciate it. Because -- and how long for a survivor, where I starved, where I got boils, because after the war, I didn't have cultume enough, and everything. I don't complain. I'm functioning well.

Q: And you still speak out, too, and I have a question about that. You have written books, and we'll talk about that a little bit more, too. You have spoken out a lot, and in public -- in schools, I believe, too. Is it difficult sometimes, because in a sense it keeps the wound open all the time, or is that necessary to -- to keep healing, to --

A: It's both. It's both. We have the obligation to talk, like I mentioned. With high blood pressure -- if you're really curious, I'1] measure, if I don't have now 200 and so. Costs me a lot, you know, health-wise. I reduced it, yes. I don't accept. Norman still goes. I compliment -- I congratulate him, I admire him for this. He speaks. It takes too much out

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 40 of me. As -- now I decline many, because unless it's important like something for Holocaust Museum to commentary. Or when we had last year one of the drive for the pennies for the Righteous People. There were so many interviews, any channel on television, CNN, amen 33, CNN, eight, 13, 12, whatever you want, 11, all was. I had to.

But also, before was so many. F -- lem -- all organizations, I felt I had to. But now, like for example, they wanted us to come out to Louisville, Kentucky, we declined. I don't know if Norman told you, we got letters, because the teacher made them read our book.

As much as tha -- they read only the part about Norman, they divided, and then they ask, and the letters were beautiful, but we couldn't go. We invited, February the 29", from Georgetown University, to speak about Holocaust. It's a big if. I don't know if I will be able to go, health wise. So, but still we have to do it. We have to do so long we can bear witness, and give testimony, because we always going on, even Germany built a monument, and acknowledged. The deniers are still -- try to deny it. And we are dead an - - in another five years, even the children survivors will be gone -- another 10 years, the children survivors, I'm talking, who are now 68.

Q: What do you think will happen to the memory of the Holocaust when the survivors are gone? What -- do you think there has been already in -- what is the impact of survivor's testimonies already, on the collective Holocaust memory, and what will happen when they're gone, do you think?

A: [had to tell you the tru -- you just go by proof. Norman published a book to Syracuse University. They sent him his -- their catalog. On the new books, I think it's new books

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 41

they published, I'm not sure, but I think by 10, half are on Holocaust, 50 years after. As a

matter of fact, people, because they can cope better with this now, are really doing more.

Shows -- now, the gathering I had, it was supposed to be sh -- played only till the 18" of

July. By popular demand they had to prolong it. Speeches, lectures, and specially I will

tell you, Schindler's List, by Spielberg, helped a lot. Also, The Holocaust, by what is his

name? I forgot his name -- helped the awareness of people.

Q: You mean this -- this late 70's movies [indecipherable] on NBC.

A: Yeah, what is his name?

Q: I don't re-remember who did it, but I just remember --

A: Wait, it'1l come to me. And Spielberg's, helped a lot, too. Even -- even the comedy,

which really never ta -- anybody thought that you can write about Holocaust in a comedy

form.

Q: Life is Beautiful?

A: Life is Beautiful, still brought the awareness. It's not facts, it's dis -- but it still -- that

was something so cruel. His reaction with the boy being in the camp. At least, in any

form, they try now, and they're very successful. It's very accept -- very, very successful.

Q: So you think those -- those popular expressions, or representations of the Holocaust

are very important?

A: Oh, very important, because we don't forget -- the world to forget the -- now it's the

second generation what took upon themselves to do it. Not exactly my daughter, but

many children of survivors, who continue. And their children, probably. You see, with us USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 42 Jews, we never forget the goodness done to us, and we never ga -- forget the wickedness.

We still celebrate Purim, which is remembrance of Hamen, who was han -- was hanged.

We never forget the one thing physician, and we -- the c -- th-the crusaders. We'll never forget it. Not I personally, I will not be there. I'm talking about the future generations.

Such cruelty, no. You know, every Passover now, we say a special prayer now, included in ours when we recite the Haggadah, which is the book that we read on Passover about the camps, the concentration camps. We have services on our -- at home in the Yom Kippur. And this will go for generations.

Q: This concludes tape two, side A, interview with Amalie Salsitz.

End of Tape Two, Side A Beginning Tape Two, Side B

Q: This is a continuation of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Amalie Salsitz. This is tape number two, side B. And you wanted to move -- add something to what we were saying.

A: Yeah, I wanted to elaborate. Like I mentioned before, we Jews remember our benefactors, and remember our killers. Now we -- ma -- Norman was in touch with a Polish woman, Stashka, who was helpful. She didn't save him -- his life, but she was helpful, and in the way -- some ways, endangered her life, because for harboring a Jew, or helping a Jew -- not helping, but harboring a Jew, she could be -- have been killed together with the -- Norman. And the other woman, who took me in, my f-father's partner's wife. I search for her, but I had the wrong address, I couldn't find her. Till

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 43 finally, 11 years ago, a friend of Norman, a Pole, located her. So we sent invitation -- at that time she was already 76 years old, and we invited both of them to United States as our guests. They were here for three weeks. They were honored, they got -- we live in Springfield, they got, from the city hall, they got the key of the city. They were invited to -- they gave testimony, and for Yale, whitesafe, they ga -- they were invited to ADL.

They -- we spoke there. The Polish consulate was there. We have even the tapes from there. And naturally we took them sightseeing, and they met my daughter, and nis -- to old -- Mrs. Eezhaniecekov, the older one who helped me, said to me, "You stayed in my house three weeks, I stayed in you, now we even." I said, "No, we are not even. You harboring me endangered your life, and the life of your whole family by keeping me. I invite you, normal times, materially it didn't matter, I have the facilities, and um -- I just hosted you as a friend, without any fear of repercussion. So we are not even. | still am in debt to you." And then, also a -- I would like to tell that after the war, when we met and we got married, we got married under our real name, but not officially. We had the reception, people we didn't know -- the only one that we knew, it was my boyfriend -- my late boyfriend's sister Sasha. The rest we didn't know the people, big officials, and big -- in our apartment. So Norman and I, we promised ourselves, if we will live to age to be able to celebrate the 50" anniversary, we may -- will make it like a wedding, and thank God we able to fulfill our dream, our wish, and four years ago, I made -- we made a big -- for 120 people, a reception. Like a wedding, except that the -- we didn't exchange the vows, the -- and my sister came from Israel, Babka. My cousin, first cousin from

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 44 Argentina came with her husband. My cousin from Toronto, Canada came. My family from Chicago, from Dallas. Not -- not only my daughter from Boston with the family.

And from Washington, from all over. This meant so much for me. The warmth, the firs time. And the speeches were just beautiful. Again, I missed my sister. My parents I understood, they wouldn't have lived, normally, to be able to participate in our party. But my sister was only 17. She would have been 72 years old. She probably would have been a grandmother. And I missed her, and her family that she never had. But it was a very big affair, and I was -- it -- and also the survivor's friends, came, who ard. So at least there was a celebration. But like any other celebration -- on my daughter's wedding, too, was a -- being she's a only child, it was done in Short Hills, which i-is here in New Jersey, exquisite place, beautiful. But when I walked to the aisle with my husband, I didn't have tears from joy, only missing my parents, who couldn't be at the wedding. So, on every happy occasion, there's this sadness, that lo -- that -- the loss of the dear ones. Naturally, also, my sister came from Israel with her late husband, but still, the other sister wasn't -- the -- that she could have been -- at that time my parents could be still alive. So no celebration ha -- is -- it sure is supposed to be a hundred percent happy, it's never. Also, because outwardly, we live a normal life. I can't complain. We were quite successful in the United States in many respects. Acknowledged, respected in our community, in our Temple. We publish a lot, we known people. Say as much as we can, we quite charitable, we known. But during the night, where we cannot control our thoughts, the dreams are still terrible. We are still chased, are still killed, and we caught. And this is when one

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 45 awakes the other. One spouse -- or my husband e -- or I -- my husband. Because we screaming still. But I guess this will be till the day till we die. People thought we -- we thought that with time there wouldn't be bleeding so much, but it's not true. It was with us. So we will ask, can we ever forgive, and forget. And I tell, I cannot forget. I don't have any right to forgive, because the victims are not there to forgive. I'm still alive, but they are not there, so I don't have the right to forgive. People ask me if I'm religious, if I believe in God. I say, I observe, I'm not so religious. Iv -- but I believe in God. I cannot prove that there is not a God. In moments of distress, I will still turn to God. But I cannot say that I love Him. I cannot say that I hate Him, but I don't love Him. I still questioning, where was He, that He permitted such atrocities. If I found peace, no. I cannot. Not because nor -- I -- I can sed -- I can generalize, in United States, we didn't get any help how to cope. First we were immersed in life, to establish us, as we are busy. So the days were easier. But in -- older we get, and now when we -- I am retired, my husband's semi- retired, it's still so fresh, and so painful. And we try to reason, doesn't work. And also by association. We traveled extensively, except I must -- I shouldn't brag, except India, and South Africa, we were all over the world. When I saw in schools children led by teacher, I didn't see Jewish children led by teacher. I saw that the children left to the Umshlaktplatz. Dr. Kolchuk's children. There were times in the beginning, not now any more, when I was in a place with a lot of people, especially when there was commemoration of the Holocaust, few thousand people. I was always afraid to -- that there will be --a bomb will be thrown in, or fire, because I remember some of my

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 46 friend's family were put in the synagogue, and let -- and burned to -- the synagogue, bur - - and burn in the synagogue. I was afraid of gatherings. And many times when I see -- when I saw a dogcatcher, I associated it with the chasings, and catching the Jews, hunting for them. I remember my neighbor had a lot of cats, so the see -- SPS called her, told her to put cages. And when I saw it, I started to cry, I said, "Open it, I cannot see it." Because when I -- me -- I -- we -- we caught. Till now, when I see cattle cars, picture [indecipherable] how my dear one were caught in it. See my mother was not sent to concentration camp, nor my father, we didn't have any in my town, Stanislawow, when we were under -- because we were under the Russians. The Germans had excuse for the war that we are all Communists. And they just killed us in ditches, the -- dug in the ghetto, on Jewish cemetery, we saw it. One different excuse, different, supposedly reason, every time. So you see, this -- you cannot erase something like this. It stays with you. And the same thing with food, when I give, till now I cannot face food, because I remember the times we starved, and moi -- my poor daughter said -- she was quite chubby one ch-child, because she said, "You always reminded me how we -- you starved, and the children in ghetto starved, and you always make me eat," which is true. I cannot, because -- so there are many things that shaped me, remained with me. Again, Imelda has a lot of shoes. I stuff too. Not as many as she has, and clothes. In case I cannot buy because I didn't have, and the same with food. And my daughter with food also. She" ll buy a lot she doesn't eat. God forbid that something should happen, her children shouldn't have food. So certain things remained with us.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 47

Q: Are there certain -- which are your favorite holidays, and which don't you celebrate

any more, because they have memories, that you can't.

A: Lalways like Passover, Easter, always. High holidays I celebrate, but it's hard for me,

because there's a lot of prayers for dead, for killing, and very hard, but I do. But then

again I recall how it was home, how I used to come to my mother, because we girls didn't

attend synagogue like it -- Christians, or an American girls go. We used to bring just

perfume, because we used to feast -- no fast, not feast, not to eat, so naturally, salts, and

[indecipherable] to revive. I -- so I remember it vividly. So it's hard, it's hard.

Q: Let's maybe talk about something that is more joyful for the moment, and that's the

family of your -- your daughter. You had difficulties understanding sometimes, but she --

she is a successful professional --

A: Very.

Q: -- she has three boys.

A: Well, yes.

Q: Talk a little bit more about [indecipherable]

A: You see with my daughter is only really -- she is not -- never was the girl who liked to

laugh, like other, to giggle, they happy, because of us. Only child, with older parents than

others. I was 34 years old, Norman 37, were in this time -- not now, but at that time

particular, women had really children 25, 24, young mothers. I was older, and she was a

good girl, she was obedient, she liked to, but inside, probably, she rebelled. And because

the only child, like she said, I smothered her with love. So when she was 17, she wanted

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 48 to -- she was accepted to college, because she graduated one year before, being she wanted to go graduate school, and she was a very good student, they experiment here in Springfield. So I let her go, because I felt she needs to get away, to be on her own. I was hurt when she decided to settle in Boston, because I've told her, "You're our only child, I would like to watch you children, my grandchildren growing up." I'm -- I know -- after all, we are not such young parents to start off, we were by 60 something. And I knew that it will be harder and harder. "I will prefer it," I said, "if you move closer by at least an hour drive if you don't want to be next to us. To be -- we should be able really, to be more with you." But she decided to go to Boston. I was hurt, but it was her choice. And really, it is the situation. The older son Dustin, m-m-m -- I have so many beautiful memories about him, h-his talk and everything, because we -- we were able still to see him at least once a month. And he adores Norman, because happens when he was born, his father was doing internship, so interns worked 37 hours in the hospital, so he hardly saw. So every time it was my husband, whom he calls in Hebrew Saba. Saba, Saba all the time, because he was used. The middle one, we love him, but we're not so close, and he's not close to us. The youngest one, same story. What, we see them once in three months, once in two months, and also it's not that my daughter tells them at least once a week, call them. They actually call now more, once a month when we give them allowances, you know? But not how we feel, how we are. There's not the closeness, which hurt me very much so. Because this is the whole world. My daughter was the whole world for me.

There was --every place we went, we took her along. As a matter of fact, she liked to go

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 49 so -- so much, that sometimes when there was a wedding, and she was not invited, I make believe I am sick so she can go with my husband, okay? And it's not so because of distance. We are very candid to each other. There's respect, there is kind of love. It is.

But it's not the warmth that I expected.

Q: Have you ever found that kind of warmth, and that kind of love that you really wanted then?

A: Was that?

Q: Anybody?

A: To be honest, with my friend who died.

Q: [indecipherable]

A: This Dr. Dubin. Yes. Then I had another friend, also survivor, she was about six years older than I am, also. You see, when I have really friends, it's not acquaintance. It's like sisters even more, because they went through what I went through. There is so much understanding, openness, even candidly we can [indecipherable] our -- our hurts, our feelings, even our husband, our children, candid, straight. Unfortunately both are deceased, thi -- I did find it. It was such warm, beautiful relationship. My daughter is like my husband, not demonstrative. She is hurt now, that her two sons are not demonstrative, not warm, but she is the same way, now she admits. And now she understands, being a mother, how it hurt me at that time. But she's trying. She's a decent human being, I'm proud of her. Like she didn't want to be a criminal lawyer, because she cannot defend people who are guilty. I'm proud. You know, this ap -- attitude to life.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 50

Q: When you just said she doesn't want to defend people who are guilty, it reminded me of the question that I wanted to ask you. Did you ever testify?

A: Oh yes, yes.

Q: You had seen so many things. You did.

A: I was called in 1963 or four, to come to Minsta, and testify against the Gestapo. Hans Krieger, who was the chef of Gestapo for -- in my town Stanislawow, and am -- Brand, and then Doust. As a matter of fact, I witnesses willful killing by Doust. But something happened to me. When I was called the first time, I went by myself. The second time they called me during the vacation, I didn't have with whom to leave my daughter, I took her along. Then -- but each time I got notification from the German consulate, they arranged the tickets, everything. When there was suppear -- supposed to be the judgment of Doust, willful killing, I was surprised. I got just a phone call, no tickets, that I have to come to the tr -- to the verdict of the trial. I didn't like it, because usually it was accompanied by the ticket. I found it fishy. I called up the German consulate, they didn't know anything about it. Luckily, luckily, in my cen -- how you call it, 10 cents or something, that I checked. They didn't know anything about it. Naturally, I didn't go. And I didn't hear anything, why I didn't come, nothing, and no tickets. Luckily. Then, I was asked to come to Vienna, to testify against two brothers, Mauer, Willie and Hans, who were really very cold. But one of them, the older one, wenald was killing in ghetto aktion action. He knew me because I had to work as a chambermaid in apartment downstairs by this Doust, and he saw -- know -- knew me by sight. In this particular case he saved my life. He

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 51 pushed me inside, not I should be taken into transport. And then, also, I was able to save my father, the whole family, because I told this my father, later, after, they believe, because my father was very young looking, I saved him. So when I had to testify, and he recognized me by my eyes. Somehow he said, you know, gestap -- es -- no German, especially SS off -- were not supposed to have any -- anything to do with Jewesses.

Luckily, majority didn't do it, they were afraid. But somehow he was intrigued. I told you I had the dark eyes, but my eyes -- and he recognized me, because when there was the killings, when we went to the ghetto, they discharge all the chambermaids. We can work as slave labors, but not in their private homes. He recognized me. So I felt, if I go to testify -- I really didn't know what decision to make. If he still recognized the eyes, and he said, "Look, here I saved this Jewess, and how she's paying my back." I felt my duty is to testify, but I couldn't bring myself to do it, because I didn't. I didn't go. Till now I'm bothered, because he killed so many. After he saved me and my family, I witnessed the killing of my neighbor. She was walking on Umshlaktplatz. From behind, she was walking, he shot her. Just for pleasure. It was not that he was ordered, it was not that it was the aktion, where they used. But I couldn't bring myself.

Q: So you didn't want him to -- to -- to say you betrayed him, when he in fact saved your life?

A: He would feel I betrayed him, the Jewess, you know how it is. If this would be puzzle, that he would blame me, I wouldn't care. This is the point. Because in his theory, Jews are vermin, Jews are everything, look. This is the reason.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 52

Q: I just want a quick follow up question to the Doust thing. So what did you expect had happened with this notification that was not accompanied by a ticket? What -- what did you think?

A: There was a group of Nazis, [indecipherable] Nazis, who tried to get away with -- to -- to do away with witnesses to the trials. And the -- because I heard later another case like this. But when I checked the consulate, luckily, I said, "You invited me?" They sent me a letter. I said, "How comes you send me -- you didn't send me the tickets?" They checked, he said, "We didn't send you a letter."

Q: I forgot to ask you that. I have -- actually just one more question left -- two.

A: Good.

Q: And one question is, how do you feel about the role of the Holocaust Museum?

A: I think it's very important, because our people learned about it. After all, statistically it's proven. So far they had 10 and a half, by now probably 11 millions people wi -- very small percentage Jews, the rest are non-Jews. And Jew -- non-Jews, from the bible belt, from the west, that they never heard it, and never would know about the Holocaust. It's doing what it's supposed to do. I don't know, like inclusion of other killings, but they're not genocide, it's a big difference. This is a holocaust. It's terrible if you kill one person, but still you cannot compare it when you try to erase the whole -- whole people, whole race. So I don't like it. But being -- I have to accept it. It's better something than nothing.

It's underground, so if the government gave the -- so this is -- thank God we have also the Yad Vashem.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 53

Q: And I also wanted to ask you if you think back -- I mean 50 years, and 55 years are a long time, but if you think back for just a minute, talk to me about one or two events in this country that were really important to you.

A: In United States?

Q: That made -- in the United States, that made an impression.

A: Oh, now, wait a moment, important, impressions big difference. Important was the birth of my daughter, see?

Q: Yeah, alri -- alright. Let me re -- no, you're right, let me rephrase this then. An important cultural or political event, or a movement, the Civil Rights Movement. Did that touch you in any way? I don't want to lead you now, I just want to --

A: Now, wait a moment, important again was when I became a citizen.

Q: There you go, that's one.

A: Important, my daughter's wedding. Those are close to me. Civil Rights, yes, I felt they should have. I didn't like the discrimination, and I'm glad the situation is improving.

Unfortunately they have their Farrakons, and if they could do, it's not the majority, but you have -- but first there was not the majority in Germany either with Hitler. This how it starts. If they have the free -- if they would have the upper hand, I'm afraid, too. But I still think I was happy. I wouldn't march for them. But I was happy that the situation is improving. I didn't like what I heard, what the Americans had done to Indians, either. I am -- I am for equal rights, I am for freedom, and for respect to everybody. And it's very

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 54 important to teach everyone to respect, and to accept, because if we would teach, and succeed, we won't have a holocaust.

Q: I want to ask you that last question on another tape because we are nearing the end, but maybe just a brief one. You have lived under Russian occupation. How did you feel about the -- in the early 50's when the -- the fear and the hatred really, of Communism was very great in this country? Did you have a di -- slightly different opinion, or did you approve of what --

A: Yes, there should have been fear, because that's what I witness -- I lived. It was a big prison. Imagine, they have their classification. Everyone's supposed to be equal. No. So you had to be a daughter of a -- a streetcleaner, to be -- become something, and God forbid if you are middle class again, the door was closed. As a matter -- I had very bad experience, if not of my lat -- late sister Celia, who was so beautiful, we would have been sent to Siberia. We got paragraph 11. They were supposed to take away our a- apartment. I wanted to study, and I wanted to become a doctor, they didn't expe -- accept me. So they only accepted me as a teacher because they were short on teachers. But when they found out my background, even from this they expelled me, unless I pay tuition, which was more then if my father made in two months. So where's the equality. Race too. Unless -- when you a Jew, you were a Jew. It was written in the kemkart yevari. So not that we had the door open for us. Actually, in my part, the Ukrainian got all the rights, he became the big one. The Pole was the second. It -- again on the third place was Ivray, the Jew. And the fear. I -- they blackmailed, for example, us students. They had special

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 55 department political spedsjust. And they called us in, especially the one like middle class, that unless you denounce your friend, unless you find something, they make you a informer, blackmailer, and they blackmail you. I was afraid to speak. Only home, to parents. And the fear that they will ship us to Siberia. Then I thought it's very bad, but lo behold, I didn't know what is awaiting me when Hitler came, when the Germans occupied. So at least this one, they let you live. But here, our lives was in danger. So I understood, they wanted to enslave people, robots. And also, there was the machinery, the one who was a [indecipherable] Stalin, who lived like kings, and the people still didn't have enough food. They're barely to live on.

Q: It's a good place to stop. This is the end of tape two, side B, interview with Amalie Salsitz.

A: You want some more?

End of Tape Two, Side B USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 56 Beginning Tape Three, Side A

Q: -- view with Amalie Salsitz, this is tape number three, side A. My question, my next question is what do you think -- you may have said it, but maybe you can elaborate one more time on it, what do you think are the lessons? Do you think there are lessons that can be drawn from the Holocaust, and has the world learned from them?

A: Yes, there are lessons that can be drawn from the Holocaust. What intolerance can do, what hatred can do, how destructive it is. But, if the world learned something, I'm sorry to tell you not. Otherwise, we wouldn't have Rwanda, we wouldn't have Cambodia, and we wouldn't have other mass killings that I don't know how to stop because there's so many now o-occur in this world. So there's still deep hatred, still, and I don't know -- trying -- we try, but the difference is, when the Armenians were killed by the Turks, the world stood by quietly, and it was not later -- there were not -- no -- no trials, and not too much really, in the press. With the Holocaust --

Q: You mean the Kurds by the Turks?

A: No, no, no, Armenians.

Q: The Armen -- Armenians.

A: Armenians. This is why Hitler felt that he can do it, because what's to the byhear, when there was killing of people, and -- and here there were Christians ki -- Moslems killing Christians. The church stood by, and everything. So he thought he will have a free hand -- and he was right -- to do with the Jews. But now with the Holocaust, because there was a trial. It's so much written and done about it to educate the people, I do hope --

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 57 I do hope that it will not occur. At least our President Clinton cited as a reason to bomb, and to enter f-f-f -- for [indecipherable] country, because that the world stood by during the Holocaust. I don't accept it, but still this was an excuse. So let's hope. And the trials that they have now in Geneva, and ha -- Hague. Maybe this will prevent.

Q: But you don't accept the argument, no?

A: No.

Q: Why not?

A: The argument that --

Q: From Clinton, that Clinton made. You said, "I don't accept it."

A: From -- because the truth is where was he in Rwanda, other countries? And where is he with the Kurds in Turkey? In s -- in Iraq, in Syria? If so -- so why he had to step in?

This why I don't accept it. And also, the truth is, when one state broke away from Yugoslavia, one after another, why didn't he do when the Croatians expelled the Serbs, and the killings? Why he permitted this? If so, I will take him seriously. Had he acted the same way with the others.

Q: Is there anything that you would like to say before we conclude this interview?

A: It's very important, really, to keep it up in schools, and to teach and educate, because the children are the future of a nation. And if you teach them, hopefully something will sink in that never again such cruelty will be perpetuated among another human being.

Q: Thank you very much for the conversation with the interview. This concludes the United States Holocaust Memorial interview with Amalie Salsitz. Yeah, that's the end.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0054 58 End of Tape Three, Side A Conclusion of Interview