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ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton MOSHE KRAUS November 30, 2014 A = Cantor Kraus A2 = Mrs. Kraus

Q: We are at the home of Cantor and Mrs. Kraus in Ottawa, November the 30", 2014. Start from the liberation. Start from the end of the war.

A: I ha --I have here a lot of stories from the end of the war.

Q: Tell me.

A: Which one?

Q: Whatever comes to your mind. Whatever you want to share.

A2: I don't know, I wasn't there, so this is not my department. I can tell only after, when you came to Israel, when we met.

A: After the war I -- I-I was -- and when the English arrived, I-I was -- I don't know -- you -- you -- you know -- you know Hebrew also?

Q: Ken.

A: Okay, I can use Hebrew words.

Q: And Yiddish.

A: Yiddish. So, then I offer -- because I never had a lesson in English, never. I -- only what I picked up. Is after the war, a day before, or two days before, the rabbi, the chief rabbi from Rotterdam, Davidi(ph), Davida(ph), Davidi(ph), I don't know myself his name, said with me already vidui, if you know what vidui is. Because I Interview with Moshe Kraus , November 30, 2014

was lying on my bed, there already was three beds, you know. I was on the third bed, and they were waiting that I shall die, because I-I was skin and bone, and that's all --

A2: Fifty-five kilo you weighed when you was liberated.

A: I-I-I-I-I was ready. I won't -- was -- was my last minutes, my last [indecipherable]. All of a sudden, the next day, I was still alive. I only remember somebody lifted me up and carried me, and all the time he said, British liberty, British liberty. I don't know what he is talking. Liberty [indecipherable] I didn't know it is liberty. But, I wa -- I didn't know British, I know English. British is in England.

Q: Yeah.

A: I never was in -- in England before -- before the war. So, British liberty, and I fell in a coma, and they took me into the hospital, and I was in the hospital, I don't -- A2: Does he talk so fast? No? Okay, sorry. I thought maybe it's too fast for -- to write.

Q: It's all being -- it's all being recorded, no problem.

A2: Ah, okay. Okay, sorry. Took him to the hospital.

A: So I- I was in a coma, I don't know, a day, two days, three days, a week, two weeks, I have no idea. I only remember I got up one day from the coma, and two ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Moshe Kraus deg November 30, 2014 girls are sitting in the sides of my bed, two German girls. Nurses, I understand. And they taking out the -- the -- the -- the -- the lice from my body. I was full with lice.

And th-th-they died in the -- they didn't have what to eat, so they went in-in the -- in the -- in the skin, and they -- A2: They digged in. They dig. Digged in --

Q: Yeah.

A: And the died, and I couldn't -- I couldn't take them out. They were in the back, and they were in the legs, and they -- unbelievable. They were working eight hours, and every hour another two, and -- until they took it off. And the next day comes the Dr. Gottlieb. He was a Jewish doctor from England. He said to me in Yiddish, I must kick you out, I'm sorry. You are not sick, you're only weak. You didn't had what to eat. But you must go out, I need the bed for a sick person. And they kicked me out. I come to the door, there is sitting a English two or three soldiers, officers, I --I don't know myself, I wasn't -- I wasn't hundred percent.

Q: Can I -- where -- where was this?

A: In Bergen-Belsen.

Q: In Bergen-Belsen, okay, okay.

A: In Bergen-Belsen, yeah.

Q: Okay.

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Moshe Kraus deg November 30, 2014

A: They made from the si-- from the --

Q: They made from the ca -- they made a hospital from the -- from the camp.

A: -- from the -- from the -- from the -- I don't know how did they call it? They call it in German.

Q: Af-- well -- well, say it in German.

A: Th-The name where the officers were.

A2: Barrack, barrack, barrack?

A: Ah, a barrack, I was in a barrack.

Q: Yeah, the officers -- okay --

A: It was a ta -- had the name in German. Had a special name. Maybe they --

Q: So they -- they converted the officers" quarters into a hospital.

A: A very big building they made from a do -- for -- for hospitals.

Q: Yes.

A: Because they needed to take thousands of ca -- sick people in then -- in the-the -- in the hospital. So -- and I came with the door. So I need a paper. I go out, and I mu --I must have a paper. I ha -- everything was burned. I had nothing, only a pajama, that's all. Nothing else. So, he asked my name and I tell him Moshe Kraus. And my name also in my Czech papers was also Moshe Kraus. My father was Jack Kraus. My father wouldn't give me a not Jewish name. Wa -- ba -- born -- when I ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014 was born, I [indecipherable] in "22. Why he wrote "23, I don't know. So ""m younger with a year.

Q: Good

A: Yeah. But anyway, some two weeks, I was home. They brought us food. Mama Mia, the UNRRA, the -- the American UNRRA brought food. I had not -- I have not seen such a food til Bergen-Belsen, and since Bergen-Belsen. Unbelievable.

And I was eating, and I was young, and a healthy man. You can see I'm today 93, nobody believes me. If I go up in the bus and I don't pay the ticket because you don't have to pay after 65, you're already 65? Can you show me papers? "ma show him papers. Because I jump up on the floor -- on -- on the car like nothing.

Some few weeks later, I find out that they give in Bucharest 130,000 lai(ph) every -- every DP, displaced person.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: Every DP gets 130,000 lai(ph). I didn't need it 130,000 lai(ph), because I was straightaway announced the secretary of the chief rabbinate, because my German is very perfect, and they needed somebody who had the knowledge, and I have the knowledge, I'm a rabbi. I never was a rabbi in a position --

Q: But you -- ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Moshe Kraus deg November 30, 2014

A: -- but I have the title -- the title. I was 16 years old and I got a title. It was a sensation in -- in -- in the city, in Munkacs. Don't know if you heard from Munkacs, a very famous Hassidic city, the number one city in the world before the war. Hassidic city. So, I-I-I told them "22, and he wrote "23. I don't know, possible I said it wrong. I don't blame him, but I didn't care. I was thinking I come home, I will go in in the city hall, and "ll take my same birthday and I will have my own original birthday, and I'll be changed. I came home, and there was no city hall.

Burned everything, the Russians burned everything. I had to wait two, three days, I don't want -- didn't want it to wait. I take the car and went back to Budapest. But on -- anyway, after a few weeks, possibly a few months, I don't remember really, I heard that they give hundred thousand -- 130,000 dollars for every DP, I will go there and get it. But I didn't meant what so much for the money, because I told you I straightaway -- you know what 500 dollars was a month? I got salary 500 dollars a month.

Q: Wow.

A: You know, and in "45, you know. And it was like -- li-like 5,000 dollars, I don't know.

Q: Yeah.

A: I couldn't spend it. Impossible. But I didn't care for the position. I cared to -- ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Moshe Kraus deg November 30, 2014

Q: This was in Budapest?

A: Yeah, it was in Bergen-Belsen.

Q: Oh.

A: To fi-- to --I wanted to find my family, and my father and my mother, my brothers, my sisters. I wanted to find them. I couldn't find them. Excuse me.

Anyway, I went to Bucharest. I went to Bucharest. I went to the train. There was no train. Th-Th-There -- nobody know where the train goes. People were standing, thousands of people, everybody wanted to go home. And I say also. So I went on the train, on the deck of the train. And I wasn't stupid, I stood in the middle.

Because from the sides they used to -- they used to fell down. All of a sudden arrived the train, I jumped up and I -- I didn't have where to go. Where she will go, I go. I want to come to Bucharest. So we went to the border, Czechoslovakia -- Germany. And from there I went to Hungary, and from Hungary | went to Bucharest, and to make story stor -- short, when I arrived and I came there to the Joint, he wanted to give me 130,000 dollar. I asked him, how much is this in dollars? Hundred and thousand lai(ph).

Q: Yeah.

A: How much is this in dollars? In dollars it is 200 dollars. Keep it. I wouldn't take it. I didn't need it. I took with me money. I took with me some thousand dollars, http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus me November 30, 2014 who needs it. And I got a spare room in the hotel from the -- from the Joint, so -- but what happened, these papers --

Q: Can I just clarify? Cause before you said Budapest, and then you said Bucharest. You wanted to go to Bucharest.

A: No, I want to go to buch -- to Bucharest.

Q: Buchar -- in Romania.

A: No, but I ran to Budapest with the train, and --

Q: For -- and then to get to Bucharest.

A: And they -- and they -- and then there from Budapest --

Q: Okay.

A: --I got to Bucharest.

Q: Bucharest, okay.

A: [indecipherable] So I had to wait a day and two, standing by the train, and oh, oh, it was terrible. Anyway, one day, the third or the fourth day, because all the papers were writing, chief cantor from Budapest arrived. He was in Bergen-Belsen eleven months, but -- yeah, I was so popular that I couldn't walk the street. But anyway, it [indecipherable] the further [indecipherable] I'm coming in in my home, in my hotel, and there is standing some four or five people, between them the chief rabbi of Romania, Safran, Rabbi Safran, and the president of the ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014 congregation -- what was his name? I begin to bi -- I begin to have trouble with things.

Q: It's okay, so do we.

A: Unbelievable. I wa -- I wa --I was with him --

Q: It's might be here. It might be in here.

A: --so friendly. One second. What was his name? Funny name. Anyhow, it will come to me, I will tell you. And Dr. Schnarch(ph), the g -- rabbi. Very important people, and they had to talk to me. I wasn't very happy. I was a little lost with my Judaism. Why did it happen? Why -- why got co -- burn my father, my mother? I couldn't find nothing, not a sister, no -- no nothing. Everything burned. But I -- after this, I find. I find two sisters and a brother.

Q: Nice.

A: Of nine children, we remind four -- we remained four, and ni -- and five were burned with my father and mother, burned. I have the day, the yahrzeit. A rabbi worked by the -- by the -- by the -- by the crematorium. And he burned my father, and he recognize him, because they came already dead, from the gas chamber. So he recognized him, and he ri -- wrote down the yahrzeit, and I have yahrzeit [indecipherable] that to those -- two days in Kislev, I have the yahrzeit. So I understand in the same day was bil -- my brother, and my brothers and sisters and Interview with Moshe Kraus deg November 30, 2014

my mother, and I keep the yahrzeit for all of them. So th-they offered me the position, the great synagogue in Bucharest, Malbim synagogue, 5,000 seats, a fantastic synagogue. There is a picture i-in the paper.

Q: In the papers? Okay, we'll see after.

A: Oh n-no, no, not here. In the paper.

Q: Oh, the newspaper.

A: She took away the paper.

Q: No, the yiddi -- in the Yiddish paper, in the English?

A: No, in the Yiddish paper. There is a picture from the Malbim synagogue. There is toos -- the Budapest synagogue, the Malbim synagogue. There is two synagogues.

Q: Okay. Here.

A: There. I wanted the Malbim synagogue --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- Bucharest. Correct?

Q: The Krysa(ph) shul in Seigurtz(ph), and the Krysa(ph) Kazinezy shul in Budapest.

A: In Budapest, not Bucharest? There must be there also Bucharest. Anyway, you ha -- you will find it. There i-- there is somewhere, you will find it.

Interview with Moshe Kraus 8 November 30, 2014

Q: Okay.

A: Bucharest, you will find Johannesburg, you will find in the other places there --

Q: Okay, we" ll get that, we'll get that.

A: -- Antwerp, [indecipherable], Israel. I traveled a lot. I had to leave positions, no-not because I wanted. [indecipherable] I went something through in my life.

You must excuse me, I'm crying a lot.

Q: That's f-fine.

A: Al-Always Rivka goes away from home, and she comes home, she finds me sitting and crying. I can't forget it. I can't believe it. And there is no answer why. If somebody will give you an answer, tell him he's a liar. So they offer me the position. I have a position in Germany, what -- what I need a position, an-and I don't want a [indecipherable], I didn't believed in it, and I was a little b-broken down. But the chief rabbi, a very clever man, a very clever man, he began to talk to me. Anyway, to make it short, he persuaded me to try, to get a position and try. You don't like it, you can always leave. Nobody keeps you. And I tried it, and I began to like it, a beautiful synagogue, 5,000 seats, with a choir, and a f--a professional choir. And the synagogue, Friday night is Saturday packed unbelievable. You couldn't drop a needle. Unbelievable. You know when there was 300,000 Jews?

Q: Yeah.

Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

A: They -- because all the -- the -- the -- the people came for the 130,000 lie. You know, they all came --

Q: Yeah, they came to Bucharest to riv --

A: To get the money.

Q: To get -- and they stayed.

A: Th-They -- the e -- in the meantime my sisters arrived, and they got the money.

They took it. Anyway, but I didn't like the communists. Wasn't easy. They -- they made -- they tried to make trouble, and after pa -- I was there at Pesach, you know, and I done Pesach. I -- I was altogether some seven months, and I said it -- and -- and I--and I said no, I says, not for me. And one Saturday, I'm kemming -- coming in in my room where I dress, where I-- I -- I keep my things in the synagogue. Who is sitting there? A Russian officer. A high officer, who used to come every Shabbas in shul to daven. But he didn't talk to nobody, and he didn't want to have to do with nobody. He was standing in a corner, davening very honest, very honest, and he finish the davening, put the book into his pocket and he left. And all of a sudden he's sitting here waiting for me. And I said, excuse me sir, what can I do for you?

You can't do for me nothing, I come to -- t-to you because I want to do for you. I liked very much your davening. I enjoyed every Shabbas, I can't tell you, and I

ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Moshe Kraus (r) November 30, 2014 want to do you a favor. Leave tonight the city. They go tonight to close the city, the country. A fly will not be able to fly the border.

Q: This was already what, deg46?

A: Forty-five still, deg45.

Q: Still deg45.

A: Yeah, 1945. Leave the city, and good Shabbas. You know, and I'm the son of the chief rabbi from Poltava.

Q: Oh wow.

A: One of the biggest cities --

Q: Yeah.

A: --in Russia, did you heard about it?

Q: Yeah.

A: Fa--I was there, a fantastic city. And what a father he had. Well, I'm getting -- he was -- he was killed in Siberia. And I met his son later, after the war, I made it for the chief rabbi in Antwerp. He was the chief rabbi in Leeds, and he came to me, he wants to be in Antwerp. And I helped him to become [indecipherable] the chief cantor of antwer -- Antwerp. And that was very popular, very famous. So I made him the chief rabbi at Antwerp. But he died after two years. So --

Q: So he told you to -- so the Russian officer -- Interview with Moshe Kraus a November 30, 2014

A: Yeah.

Q: -- told you to leave.

A: [indecipherable] he say he's the son of the chief rabbi from Poltava. His name was -- his name was Medalia(ph). Medalia(ph).

Q: Excuse me. Your mother's family. His mother's family was Medalia(ph).

A: Your -- he was the chief rabbi in-in-in-in-in molt -- Poltava. Medalia(ph), there is no other Medalia(ph), I never met another Medalia(ph) in my life.

Q: They lived in Australia. Medalia(ph) is your mother's family? Absolutely his mother's family is Medalia(ph).

A: Oh mada -- Medalia(ph).

Q: But they emigrated to Australia after.

A: [indecipherable] the son -- the son [indecipherable] the rabbi. Oy, my heart goes out for these people.

Q: Wow. It's crazy.

A: Anyway, and he left. I stayed away from shul, wa-walked to the president -- Misha(ph) Leyba(ph) -- Misha(ph) Leyba(ph) was his name. Misha(ph) Leyba(ph). Rich man, I mean, billionaire. A millionaire, a billionaire, I don't know if there was billionaires, but a very rich man. He was the president of the Keren Kayemeth, he was the president of the Zionist Federation, he was a very interesting Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

man, a great friend. And I came in to him and I said to him, I'm going to tell you something, you can't tell nobody this, because it puts the -- th-the -- the officer in jeopardy, he will have trouble. But this is the story. And I came to you. It is Shabbas, I don't drive Shabbas a car, and I don't travel Shabbas. But straightaway after Shabbas, I go to the train, and take the train to Germany. Come with me, leave everything. Come with your wife with me, what I will eat, you will eat. I-- what I will eat, you will eat, I can't give you more. I haven't got more. And he looked at me. Moshele(ph), he said, you will be sorry. Don't do it. What you miss?

You need another thousand dollars? I give you another -- don't leave, you have such a position, we love you, they want you. Mishel(ph), I'm leaving, and I'm going straightaway, you want to come with me, I will be responsible. What I will have, you will have. No, he is not going, and you will be sorry. I said, okay, I hope you will not be sorry. [indecipherable] I left and I arrived in Germany. It wasn't easy, all the -- all the stories. But the borders -- I have no papers, I had only a paper -- paper from the Germans. N-N-N-N-No -- no passports, nothing, but I made it. I be -- moment I said I am from the concentration camp, they let me go. And I had to -- I had to throw -- to -- to go in black to the Hungarian border, from the Hungarian to the Czech, from the Czech to the Austrian, and from the Austrian to the Germans.

And it was -- wasn't easy, with my sisters, with both sisters, yeah, and a man who Interview with Moshe Kraus .

November 30, 2014

later married my sister. He died already [indecipherable] two years ago, and he left me -- nine children he left me. I have to look after them, my trouble. What can I do?

But the times go out, I can't do it. Anyway, we arrived in Germany, and I took my position, they waited for me. And I be -- and I became the chief and the general secretary of the chief rabbinate in Germany -- in Germany.

Q: In what city?

A: In Bergen-Belsen.

Q: Oh, back to Bergen-Belsen.

A: Yeah, they bring the chief rabbinate was in Bergen-Belsen. Anyway, and my -- my -- my main thing was, I had to go to Bunne every week. Bunne was the capital.

You know, Berlin was then by the Russians, is -- Bunne was the capital, and I had to go every week to -- to Bunne to take out people from the jail. It wasn't easy, believe me. And I was, til 48 -- but it still was Palestine. And they came from th -- Palestine came people with long payos, with caftans [indecipherable] is standing by th-the door from -- by the entrance from Jerusalem. He can't come in, he has got who? All he -- all the Jews were there, were 600,000 Jews. You can't imagine. And --an-and -- and it wasn't a state, it was only Palestine. And he begged us, come to Israel. Don't go to America, don't go to England, don't go to Australia. Come to Israel. And I was thinking about, I had read the contract from America, I had

Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

already my ticket, and im -- come to Israel. And I decided -- I took my tickets, I had to tear them, I took my contract, I teared them, and I went to Israel.

Q: This is "48 -- the beginning -- beginning of "48.

A: In deg48, yeah. Some two months before Israel became Israel. I don't remember the month.

Q: Why, February, March, it doesn't --

A: Yeah, I ma-- something. Anyway, I came to Israel, and when they became Israel, I -- I became also very popular [indecipherable] chief cantor of Bucharest, chief cantor of Budapest in th-the -- th-the -- the -- the concentration camp, and I couldn't walk the street. Unbelievable. Everybody want blessings, you do -- everybody want blessings from -- from concentration camp people, because th-they believe that the blessing from a concentration camp man is very good, very okay.

So, I--I- you --- they announced me -- oh, I did a wedding, a very rich wedding, Moses. He was the head of the Haaretz paper. He was at -- with the -- with the boss of the Haaretz newspaper, and that was the biggest paper then in Israel, and in the world. And he was a very rich man. And if he married off a child, I don't remember if a daughter, if a -- so he invited me to do the wedding, and because that he was a very important man, all the ministers, all the [indecipherable] then they were already ministers, there was already a [indecipherable] and then there was already Interview with Moshe Kraus * November 30, 2014

charges, and ambassadors. Everybody was invited to the wedding. And they had from the army, th-the gen -- th-the General Yardin, he was the head of the army, he had me, or I did the chuppah, he called me up, his assistant came up to me, yagen -- General Yardin -- I was already in the army, and then General Yardin wants to talk to you. Oh, I'm in the army, I was already a [indecipherable] officer. I had lieutenant, a lieutenant. So -- and I was an anti-tankist. And he asked -- asked me, well, what are you doing in the army? Anti-tankist. Anti-tankist I will have better than you. And I want you to become the chief cantor of the Israeli army [indecipherable] history. Never was a chief cantor in the Israeli army. I made history. I became the first chief cantor in the Israeli army. Since then they have already the fifth chief cantor, but I was the first chief cantor for four years.

Q: Wow. Wow.

A: Four years I was, but I couldn't take it. It was very difficult for me, the funerals.

The funerals brought me back to your -- to the Bergen-Belsen, and I used to s-stay there, and do the funeral and crying. And I'm a crier, well, what can I do, "ma crier.

Q: Okay.

A: I can't help it. Anyway, after four years, I said enough. They didn't wanted to let me go. After two years, I had to leave, because I was two years, and that's all. This ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014 is the law. But Yigael Yarden called me, and asked me -- yeah, | will tell you, I have two papers on the pable -- table, to sign that you are free from the army, and the other to sign do you want to be another two years. And I beg you to be -- sign for the other two years, because you don't know what it means when you make a funeral, and the mother, or th-the wife from the young man comes up to me and says to me, I couldn't find comfort til I heard the cantor [indecipherable].

Unbelievable. You know, do what you want. I began to cry, I'm a crier, and I signed. And I was sorry. Very, very difficult two years over there.

Q: Is that cause, gehasmut(ph) metredden(ph)?

A: Yeah, yeah. I -- I-[--1--TI really -- I was sorry for it, but I did it, and after two years came to me Antwerp, and they asked me to take the position. Is also -- I had already a position. I had to -- I had took on the position in Basel, chief rabbi hired me.

Q: Okay, wait. I have a question for you.

A: Yeah?

Q: You were in the army for four years, living in Israel for four years?

A: Yeah.

Q: Is that when you met your lovely wife?

A: Yeah, yeah.

Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

Q: Okay, I want a little bit of that too, you know.

A: This is -- this is why I'm sorry for the four years. I hope you didn't hear that.

Q: No, she didn't hear it.

Q2: It's recorded.

A2: No, no, I did.

Q: It's rec -- Rivka, it's recorded.

A: Yeah. I met her in a wedding.

A2: The first time I hear it.

A: I came to a wedding --

Q: So before -- yeah, so before you go to Antwerp, let's hear how you met.

A: I came to a wedding, a wedding, you know, it is also interesting how I met her. I came to a wedding where thousands of people came there to the wedding, it was the Moshe Serraba(ph).

Q: Ah, a [indecipherable] wedding, okay.

A: May -- yeah, Moshe Serraba(ph), had a son. And the girl was the leader from the -- from the ma -- Yehuda Israel. So, who -- who didn't went to the wedding?

The -- all the ministers with all -- everybody wi-wi -- u-u-unbelievable. And also, I had to present, with the chief rabbi, the government. We represent the government.

So [had to go there. And that wasn't like today. Waiters, you know, oh, I've seen a Interview with Moshe Kraus 8 November 30, 2014

waiter, oh, you're a waiter. And who could way -- be a waitress for sa -- so many people? So the friends, his friends, they were waiters, and her friends. Rivka was a friend of the [indecipherable]

Q: Okay.

A: They went together in the school. So she was a waiter for that. So she came up with a -- with a plate, with something to offer. And -- and I've seen her. Okay today she doesn't look like she -- she looked then. She was 60 years old. But she did -- it was what to look. And I said to the chief rabbi, this will be my wife. Sha -- sha -- sha [indecipherable] I don't know if you heard the name.

Q: Sure.

A: General Gorra(ph), Gorra(ph). And after half an hour I asked her to marry me, you remember?

A2: Yeah.

A: After half an hour.

Q: Ho -- why -- you waited a whole half an hour?

A2: No, because --

A: Sh-She wa -- I wal -- I walked with her. She walked around there, I walked with her.

A2: We were alone.

ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Moshe Kraus - November 30, 2014

A: And I walked her after -- after [indecipherable] you know, I want you to marry.

A2: [remember when the --

Q: Did you say yes right away?

A2: No. [indecipherable]

A: She -- she -- she said to you -- she said to me that I'm a meshugener.

A2: No, I said to my friend, you know, I met a madman tonight. [speaks foreign language]

A: [speaks foreign language] A2: Iwas 16 years old. Anyhow, by 17 we got en -- he ran after me unbelievable.

Everybody knew I would -- by 17 we got engaged, and six months later we got married. So that's the story.

Q: It's a great story.

A2: Great.

Q: Talk about love at first sight.

A: And we are -- we are married 63 years.

Q: Wow. So that's what -- Q2: Where did you live in Israel?

Q: [indecipherable]

A: Pardon?

Interview with Moshe Kraus 6 November 30, 2014

Q2: Where did you live in Israel.

A2: Tel Aviv.

Q2: In Tel Aviv?

A2: Near the [indecipherable]

A: Anyway -- anyway, I ge -- ge -- I have a contract for in ba -- Basel, and I waiting to go to Basel. Basel didn't needed me for a Shoshanim Kippur, it was before a Shoshanim Kippur. And they didn't needed me before a Shoshanim Kippur because their chazzan, they had -- he had a contract til after Shoshanim Kippur, and I had to take the position after Shoshanim Kippur.

Q: In Basel?

A: In Basel. In meantime, came [indecipherable] to look for a chazzan for Shoshanim Kippur.

Q: Oh well.

A: And they -- somebody told them how the Kraus is free.

A2: They had you in a concert in -- in the chalaka but(ph), I remember.

A: Anyway, they came, and they offered me the position, and they paid well, and I went to bal -- to Antwerp. But what happened? Some two days after the [indecipherable] that Rivka packed [indecipherable] suitcase -- but what -- what to http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus *deg November 30, 2014 -- what did you have to bring from Israel? Not too much things. And -- and we are packed. And they paid me everything, perfect, n-na -- no problem.

Q: What year are we here? Sa -- 50 -- A2: Fifty --deg52.

Q: Two.

A: Four years I was on -- in Antwerp in the army.

A2: deg48 to "52, it was.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah. And in moment I -- 1--I finish packing, and we went for a walk, I don't know, we had to buy something, and I'm coming back to take my suitcase some two hours before the train in the opposite the train though -- though -- A2: Yeah, [indecipherable] was closest to it.

A: -- was opposite the train, to take my suitcase, t-to go right away from the train.

Suitcase is not here.

Q: Wa -- this was in Antwerp?

A: Yeah. Suitcase is not here. Where is the suitcase? You know, this was after the war, everything was -- was -- was very, very, very -- A2: Disorganized.

Interview with Moshe Kraus u November 30, 2014

A: You -- you -- you -- you -- you expected everything. So I went to the office, and I said, where is my suitcase? Oh, Mr. -- what was his name?

A2: Nyfeld(ph). Nyfeld(ph).

A: Nyfeld. Mr. Nyfeld(ph) was here, he was the second president of the ca -- the congregation, and he took your suitcase to the congregation. Well, what am I going to do by the congregation? I finished with the congregation, so Rivka remained in the hotel, and now you run to a different congregation. I had to run for 10 minutes.

And I come in in the office, and the secretary is sitting, where -- wh-what is going on? Why did you took my -- somebody took my co -- knife up to -- too my congrega --my suitcase. No, you -- they are waiting in the big room. They -- they are in a meeting. You know, th-th -- well, it wasn't like now here, the -- every shul is br -- f- for Shabbat -- make Shabbat for himself. No, it was a [indecipherable]. There was some 10 shuls, and every the other, the same shuls belong to one [indecipherable]

Q: Okay.

A: And I was in the main synagogue, and I was a city cantor, not a chief cantor.

Q: Okay.

A: Everyone was a chief cantor, and I was a city cantor. You know, til Ottawa I was a city cantor. In Bucharest I was a city cantor. In Budapest I was a city cantor, Interview with Moshe Kraus *s November 30, 2014

in Antwerp a city cantor. In Johannesburg a city cantor and in-in -- in I don't know where else.

A2: Mexico City. Mexico City.

Q: Wow.

A: Mexico -- Mexico -- Mexico City, I ca -- city cantor, no.

A2: He also [indecipherable]

A: Anyway, so I go in, all the committee is there, 81 people. 81 people are committee, and the chief rabbi, [indecipherable] where -- who is not there. And the president gets up, Moshele(ph), please, you have a city here. I go [indecipherable] I must go to the train. Why do you keep my suitcase? Because we don't want you to go to Basel. We want you for chief cantor in Antwerp. [indecipherable] So I'm on the telephone with Basel [indecipherable] and let you go from the wa -- contract [indecipherable]

A2: Sorry interrupting you, because it's important. He said, even if we want to let you go, we can't, because congregation will kill us. [indecipherable] Because how could you let go such a cantor? Of course, it was in the best in -- you know -- this important thing.

A: They didn't -- they didn't want it to get killed, yeah. Anyway, they paid 5,000 dollars, you know then, what that was?

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

Q: A lot of money.

A: Five thousand dollars they paid, it was an [indecipherable] was the chief rabbi in Paris?

A2: Don't remember. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.

A: Anyway, 5,000 dollars they paid for the congregation Basel to let me go, and I was with them for six years.

Q: In Antwerp?

A: In Antwerp.

A2: Til deg58, yeah.

A: Yeah, six years, I was a king, I can't tell you. And if not Rivka, I would be there til today. That was my best position, I loved it. But she couldn't take it.

Q: So fi--til 58, so --

A: She couldn't take the weather. In Antwerp is two weathers a day, before the rain and after the rain.

Q: After the rain.

A: Unbelievable.

A2: Coming from Israel it was -- http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus *deg November 30, 2014

A: And she couldn't take it, she's an Israeli. She always [indecipherable] herself, she became an alcoholic, only to sleep and to sleep, and to -- and I had a really difficult six years there. We we -- we were eating in th-th-the restaurants.

A2: Not exactly, but no, I thought something was wrong with me. I didn't know that --I was --

Q: Oh, weather can play big -- A2:--I was 19 years old when I came to --

A: So we -- we left for South Africa.

A2: I didn't -- wait a second. I didn't know that weather has an impact on people, what -- and nobody told me.

A: I could go to Syria, or the -- to South Africa, and she choose South Africa because she want --

Q: The weather's better.

A2: No, wait -- it's a problem. Wait, Moshe, please. They invited him in "57 for a concert tour to South Africa.

Q2: Ho-Hold -- hold on a second, cause I can't --

Q: Oh, ca -- put -- okay. He's gonna give you the mi-- if you're gonna tell a story, he's gonna give you the microphone.

Q2: Yep.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus * November 30, 2014 A2: Oh.

Q2: Excuse me. There we go, okay.

A2: Okay. Moshe was invited for a concert tour in South Africa in 1957. When he came back, the first question I asked him, how's the weather? Never a -- yeah, and he told me that they offered him two positions, two. So I asked him, well, how's the weather? And he told me, beautiful, all the time, all the time. So I said, Moshe, we -- we are going.

A: Spring -- spring is all the year.

A2: Let me finish.

A: No winter, no summer. Springs.

A2: I--I said, we are going. I never asked him which city, what salary, what the condition we go to, nothing.

Q: Sunshine, sunshine.

A2: Sunshine, I'm going. And we went. And a -- and we went with someone.

A: And I - and I [indecipherable] I left -- 1 wanted -- I wanted to go to Syria because Syria offered me also a position. And she didn't -- she was afraid of Syria, because winter, they have a winter.

Q: Yeah. So now, in South Africa, you went to Johannesburg?

A: Yeah.

ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Moshe Kraus % November 30, 2014 A2: Yes, and we live there 12 wonderful years.

Q: So from "58 to --

A: To "70.

Q: To "70.

A: Yeah, I ran away from Mandela. I didn't know that Mandela is [indecipherable] A2: Moshe, we didn't finish with Antwerp, there are a lot of stories from Antwerp that I want to fill in. [indecipherable]

A: Which stories?

A2: Quite a few. There's the story going to ba -- to -- to Syria via -- the trip with [indecipherable]. On the trip that we went to with the Boyovich(ph) in the car, what happened -- oh, this is --

A: Oh [indecipherable] A2: Absolutely -- absolute -- this is one. When -- the story when he went --

A: Let me finish, le -- let me -- let me to tell the story, because I will forget it.

A2: No, I will tell it.

A: N-No, no. You -- you want to say the story?

A2: Yeah, because I remember it well.

A: Oh we -- okay.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus 8 November 30, 2014 A2: Yeah. Well --

Q: While you were living in Antwerp?

A2: While we were living in Antwerp, okay. Fili-- first of all, he gave concerts all over Europe. I mean, we were in -- in Manchester, England, London --

A: Europe, South America, and America -- A2: Moshe, please. If I talk, let me talk. We're not jumping to South America, ""m talking about Europe now. Moshe likes to --

Q: It's okay, it's okay.

A2: Yeah, okay. I said, Manchester, London, li-- Liverpool, Glasgow -- oh, Glasgow we have a story. I-- I must tell a story with Glasgow because it's -- remember Mendelson, the story? Okay, I'll come back. And, of course Amsterdam, Paris, everywhere, he gave concert. So, once we were invited to go to Zurich, Moshe was supposed to give a concert in Zurich, and wi-- wanted -- and when we lived in Europe, in Europe you used the train then, cause it's a convenient.

Q: Right, yeah.

A2: So, a friend of ours, a Mr. Boyovich(ph) came and said, I heard you're going to Zurich. I happen to go the same week to Basel because I have a sister there, and then I'm going to Zurich, so I can take you. So we thought it's a good idea, because http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus x November 30, 2014 he told us that go -- traveling to Switzerland, you have to go through Luxembourg and -- and France, and we haven't been there yet. So we said fine, we'll go with you. And we went. We -- til we came to si-- to Canada, we traveled everywhere in ti-- on the Israeli passport, okay? So when you come to Luxembourg, then with the custom, that when you arrive on the border, the people from the -- you know, they're sitting in the hut, in a ho -- little house? They come to the car, they take your passport, they check, they did what they do, and they bring it back, and goodbye. So about five minutes -- am I too fast? No. About five minutes later, they bring back the passport for -- to -- to the couple that are friends, and not our passport. And we sit, and we sit, I don't know, maybe it was only five minutes, but to us it looked like half an hour [indecipherable] we didn't know what's going on. And we thought also that friend of ours, what were they saying? Maybe they are saying we are smuggling diamonds or something, because why don't they come back with the passport? Eventually -- yeah, eventually somebody comes, one, walks around the car, looks in it as we were the back, looks, goes back. Another one comes, same thing, and a third worker. We didn't know what's going on, because eventually this one comes and gives us the passport to say thank you, you can go. Well, she said wait -- wait a second. What happened here? Why did it -- what happened? Why did they come -- it was in 1956, and this was when the Suez War was. And this is when http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus 8 November 30, 2014 the Suez War was. And this is when Israel was the first time on the map aft -- you know, big, big because of -- and they knew. And the first time in the life, they saw --

Q: Saw Israeli -- A2: -- Israeli passports. So they wanted to see how Israeli looked like. And this is the one story. Okay, now we continue. When we came to France -- til today I don't know where it was, a small city.

A: Twas in the night.

A2: Yeah, it was night, and it was pouring rain, we couldn't see in front of us.

A: Raining [indecipherable] A2: Okay. So we decided to stop and stay the night, and we"|l continue the next day. We stayed -- we went to the hotel, and a -- we took, of course, a room, and our friends were -- took a room, and Moshe said he is going to take a shower first. So while he was in the shower, there's a knock on the door. Knock at the door, I open the door and I see three men, all dressed in black suits, very, very -- and very serious. And --

A: May I stop you?

A2: Yeah.

A: If l--if I get to say I had to get -- A2: I didn't forget -- I didn't forget the passport.

36 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: -- you forg -- you forget to say I had to give -- you forget to give -- you had to give the passports -- A2: Yeah, oh yeah.

A: -- and there was written -- A2: No, no, no --

A: -- in English -- A2: Yeah.

A: -- there was written -- A2: No.

A: -- in French -- A2: Yeah, yeah.

A: -- prime minister from -- A2: No, no.

A: -- Prime Minister Kraus.

A2: No, no Moshe, let me, sorry --

A: Mr. Kraus, Prime Minister.

A2: No Moshe, let me, please. It's true --

A: But it was my title, prime minister.

37 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: Pm--T'm coming to it, but you're spoiling it. You're spoiling the whole story.

When we came in the hotel, okay, then was the customs also, you have to give a passport. And when you leave --

Q: Yeah.

A2: -- they give it back to you.

Q: Yeah.

A2: Okay. I didn't remember what's written in the passport. And again, as Moshe mentioned to you, he was the chief cantor of the city, and -- and our passport was written all in French. So in French his title --

A: I was city cantor.

A2: Yes, you said that already Moshe. It was written, where they say the title, prime minister of [indecipherable]. This was his title. In French it me -- you know, in Europe, a cantor and a rabbi is a minister, like in England, you know, so he was a minister premier, chief minister.

Q: Oh, the chief minister.

A2: Yeah. But seeing the chief minister, an Israeli passport, so if they s -- so that man at the -- at the desk, when he opened the passport, he called right away the manager, said look, the Prime Minister of Israel is here. Yeah. Well, I didn't know that.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus 8 November 30, 2014

Q: You didn't know that either.

A2: No, no, we didn't -- we didn't see [indecipherable] no, it didn't occur to us --

Q: That's very cool. I like that story.

A2: Yeah, well, so the three men start speaking, of course, in French, they apologize. They apologize, they apologize, apologize, and we didn't know. If we would have known, this government would have made a welcome party. We would invited the press, and -- and we would have put the -- and I am kvelling, you know, I think -- thinking well he's -- he's fame -- I mean, I didn't even know where we are, I didn't even know if there are Jews there, so how do they know who ca -- came -- the famous Cantor Kraus is? But then they said, if we would know he is coming, we would have put the flag out. Wait a second, flag? What's going on here? I -- I really wasn't that stupid, it was a semi-misunderstanding -- misunderstanding. So -- but to make sure, I said wait, and I called my [indecipherable] my French was, but not perfect, I said, I'm not understanding well, you know? So I -- I went to next door, called my friends, and I hope they're not undressed yet, yeah, and I asked them, see what's happening. So this is what the story was, they thought he is the prime minister of Israel, and they wanted to -- to -- di-di-di -- anyhow --

Q: Should have said he's better than the prime minister.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus *deg November 30, 2014 A2: Wait. So, yeah, so this -- they said okay. But in the morning, they will come to say goodbye, you know. Needless to say, we left, I don't know, five in the morning, we ran away, you know, because we didn't want to -- to tell them that they're -- and you know, for I think weeks, we checked every Israeli passport, to read -- Israeli newspaper, sorry, to see if the Shin Bet is not looking for imposter, prime minister imposter. Because they don't know the story, and if the [indecipherable] there was a prime minister

Q: That's great. It's a very good story.

A2: I think it's a very funny story.

Q: It's a very good story.

A2: Yeah, okay, th-this is one story.

A: Why do you -- don't you finish off the story? What happened in Basel when we arrived?

A2: It's -- it's -- no -- yeah, Basel, okay, yeah. So, anyway -- one way -- on the way what -- yeah, and -- when we arrived in Basel first because he went to see sister. So, before he -- and he said, we'll wait, we'll walk a little bit and he will come and pick us up, we will continue [indecipherable]. But before we left, he told us he -- he and his wife were in the -- in the zir -- in Basel the whole we -- the -- the time of the war.

The time of the war. They had survived.

Interview with Moshe Kraus "" November 30, 2014

A: And everybody knows them.

A2: No, wait a second. And he did -- he couldn't work, he didn't have a work permit. So he was walking the street, in all the cafes, he was -- didn't know what to do, so he said, you know, everybody knows me. Fine. So as he's telling that, a young man comes close, and -- and Moshe says, here, ask this young -- young man.

Said, so, Mr. Boyavich(ph) -- boyo -- boyo -- boyas -- Boyavich(ph) --

A: Boyovich(ph).

A2: Yeah. Asked him, do you know me? Says, I don't know you, but I know Cantor Kraus. What happened, he was -- it was a -- lived in Basel, but he -- he was learning in the yeshiva in Antwerp. So in Antwerp every da -- everybody knew Cantor Kraus. Well, the Boyavich(ph) was as if he gave him -- you know. So this is --

A: Biovich(ph), Biovich(ph).

A2: Biovich(ph), okay.

Q: Biovich(ph).

A2: So this is just a little story. Okay. Now, when we came to Zurich, course he gave the concert, it was terrific, I will say. So that's a stor -- this is the end of this story.

A: So they want to fill the position. But I to -- I choosed -- I choosed the -- the honest work. You choosed the honest work.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014 A2: No, no, no ma -- this was later Moshe, sorry, this was later. So, okay. Now there's another story, interesting story with Grenoble, when we went to a concert for Shabbat to Grenoble. This is a really interesting story. He was invited to -- there was a Bar Mitzvah, somebody had the Bar Mitzvah, and invited him to come to do the service on Saturday.

A: Grenoble. Grenoble.

A2: Grenoble. You know Grenoble, France?

Q: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

A: Ci-City in the second -- second city in France.

A2: It's not the second, but sure. Anyhow --

A: Number one city from the -- from the -- from the -- from the -- from the -- A2: Yeah. Do you remember back to --

A: -- university.

A2: Yeah, but --

Q: Yeah, the university, it's a nice -- A2: The university. I don't know if you remember the story about the Finali(ph) twins, children. No, no, you -- nevermind. There was a big, big, big scandal right after the war. Somehow, before the war, the parents gave those two twins into a--a --acloister, or a-- Interview with Moshe Kraus * November 30, 2014

Q: A church.

A2:--a monastery.

Q: Or a monastery.

A2: No, a monastery.

Q: Yeah.

A2: To keep them. And if they survive, they'll pick them up. They didn't survive, but they told other members of family, the fact that the children are there. So after the war, the -- the relatives, I don't know exactly who --

Q: Twin boys? Two boys?

A: Twin boys, yeah. Finali(ph) boys, the -- yeah -- went to the cl -- place to -- to claim them, and that -- they didn't want to give them. Said they're Christian, they are converted. They denied sto -- they wouldn't give. Was a big scandal. In Israel was -- all the papers was full of it, full, because it was a first story -- this kind of story after the war -- well, there were many --

Q: Yeah.

A2: -- but this was very famous, yeah, okay. The lawyer that was for the Finali(ph) children was a Mr. Kanna(ph), who lived in Grenoble.

Q: Okay.

Interview with Moshe Kraus 8 November 30, 2014

A2: Okay? And he was an atheist, he didn't believe in anything. And somehow he was a friend of the father with the Bar Mitzvah, so he came to shul. Course, he clai -- told us later he didn't even daven [indecipherable] if you put a tallis, he just came to honor the friend. And Moshe davened. Apparently -- apparently, his davening was so moving -- I mean, we have this actually print the paper --

A: I saw the great -- the great -- the great prayer of Wagman(ph).

A2: Oh, yeah, yeah --

A: --he was very excited.

A2:--yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a prayer Wagman(ph), and -- and it mentioned all the Torahs, you know --

A: Kiddush akoidish(ph)

A2: Yes.

A: [indecipherable]

A2: [indecipherable] Kiddush HaShem.

A: Al Kiddush HaShem.

A2: Yeah. He was so moved, he burst out crying, and he went out --

A: Came to the bimah --

A2: Right, he came to the bimah, clapped. What'd he say? From now on I want to be a Jew, something like that.

Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

Q: Wow.

A: Rabbi -- he said it --

A2: Yeah.

A: -- the rabbi was standing near me. Rabbi from today I want to be a good Jew.

A2: Was in all the papers, so we have the paper to show you.

A: Well, all the papers are writing because he was very popular with the children.

A2: Yeah, the scandal was all over the world, so he was -- so this is the story.

A: And then he went to America, and he le-left a Mr. -- how you say mister?

A2: I don't [indecipherable] noncommittal --

A: He changed his name, and he changed --

A2: Oh yeah, yeah, he convert -- yeah. But that -- that's -- that's not important, important story is the shul, that it was --

A: No, that is important biki-- because the Gentiles wanted to kill him.

Q: Yeah.

A2: Okay, so this is one story. Let's see, we were in Antwerp, I wrote a few things, let me see.

A: What was his name?

A2: Kanna(ph), Kanna, Kanna(ph).

A: T-Talud(ph)?

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus *8 November 30, 2014 A2: No, K, Kanna(ph).

A: K-Kanna(ph), Kanna(ph).

A2: Yeah.

A: Kanna(ph).

A2: Basel.

A: Was in all the papers.

A2: Yeah. Let's see, what I remember from --

A: But also -- also other stories you wanted to tell, from other places.

A2: From Antwerp?

A: From Antwerp.

A2: Yeah, it doesn't come to me at the moment. This I wrote down, those two I wrote down. So let's go, and if I remember, we'll come back. Okay? Yeah? Okay, so then we went to South Africa from --

Q: So, after being in Antwerp for -- A2: Six years. We went to si--

Q: -- six years, you moved to Johannesburg, to South Africa.

A2: Yeah, yeah.

Q: Fifty-eight.

46 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: Eight, "58 til "70 we were there. South Africa -- what is particular from South Africa?

Q: Good weather.

A2: Good weather, yeah, and every year, of course, we went to -- to visit Israel.

South Africa, what was interesting of course is the -- this has nothing to do with him, but the -- the game was there, the famous game was there, I'm sure you heard about the game was there.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: Tell the story about [indecipherable] in -- in -- in -- in -- in -- in--in-- A2: Yeah, yeah.

A:-in- A2: Whe -- when we went on our way to Antwerp the first time, we stopped at -- at -- the plane stopped in -- in -- in Paris that time. There was no direct to Brussels, like today. So it stopped in Brussels first, and -- and we wanted to send a telegram to Israel, to the family that we're safe. And o -- he ma -- we met ke -- Rabbi Kahaneman, who was very famous in Israel, he was the Ponevezher Rav, yeah, and so was --

A: Very famous http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014 A2:--was looking, he said, what do you look? He said, looking for a pen. So rabbi said, take my pen, and -- cause he wanted to write a telegram. And while he was writing, the code -- his plane is leaving, so he ran to take the plane and we left -- we lost him, and -- and the pen remained with Moshe. Okay. I don't know how many years later, at least 10 years later, the Rabbi Kahaneman came to Johannesburg --

A: He was my guest.

A2: And Moshe went to see him. I have your pen. He gave it to him. This is a short -- yeah, just an episode, you know.

Q: Yeah.

A2: Yeah.

A: I didn't know this story, this story in sou -- there was a city in Johannesburg -- A2: Ah, the story was with the --

A: With the two -- with the two people, with -- with cantor, and with -- with -- and with the president of the congregation. He went to get money in -- in -- what was the name of the city?

A2: I don't know which one. You're talking with -- with --

A: You know -- you know -- you know the story.

A2: Yeah, yeah, I -- no, you took the [indecipherable] Mr. Cohen, Sam Cohen --

A: Yeah.

Interview with Moshe Kraus %8 November 30, 2014

A2: Story with Sam Cohen.

A: Not Sam Cohen.

A2: This also interesting story, yeah.

A: [indecipherable] but not about Sam. But -- but what -- what was the city?

A2: I don't know which one you're talking about.

A: He [indecipherable] in -- in the -- in -- a-after that was ga -- a big, big city, a small city was Durbin

A2: Capetown.

A: Capetown [indecipherable]. Two names.

Q: Port Elizabeth?

A2: Ah, Port Elizabeth

A: Port Elizabeth.

A2: Ah, this is where --

A: And I took him to Port Elizabeth with me to me -- with the brother of cantor -- A2: Ah, ah, this -- this you tell, I wasn't there, so it's your story. I wasn't there, so you tell the story. Tell the story, I wasn't there.

A: I don't know if it will be interesting. Al -- a -- as you know, is -- is he came to get ma -- make money.

A2: To collect money.

Interview with Moshe Kraus deg November 30, 2014

A: For the ca -- to collect money for the yeshiva.

Q: Okay, so start go -- step back. Who was this?

A2: Kannaman(ph), Robert Kannaman(ph).

Q: Oh, the same --

A2: Yeah.

A: Kahaneman, the me -- great -- great Kahaneman.

A2: He traveled the world to collect the money to support his yeshiva.

Q: In Israel?

A2: In Naiberac(ph).

A: He -- he took -- he took people -- from people thousands of dollars. He -- he was the greatest collector in the world.

A2: At this time his yeshiva was the biggest success [indecipherable]

A: He was very famous here in the -- you must know Kahaneman. You must hear the name. He was a name like Schoch(ph), a very famous name, very famous.

Anyway, he -- he -- and -- and I asked to go with him [indecipherable] he wouldn't go with nobody because if Moshe Kraus go with me, I -- I will not see a dollar. If I get more a dollar or less a dollar, I don't care. I care to be received with honor. And he wanted to be received with honor. Moshe Kraus was very famous in -- in -- in-- in Port Elizabeth.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus *deg November 30, 2014 A2: In South Africa.

A: Also, but in Port Elizabeth -- A2: I said in the whole South Africa, yeah.

A: -- yeah. So we arrived there, and we come in the shul in the morning, and begin to make collect the people. And he take min -- min -- the min-minimum was a thousand doll -- thousand rand. Thousand rand was 3,000 dollars. A rand was a dollar. Plus 3,000 dollars [indecipherable] and it was in the year -- A2: Look, the --

A: --in the 50s somewhere.

A2: The sixties.

A: The sixties already?

A2: Yeah.

A: Yeah? We were in the 60s, it was a lot of money. And in the evening also, we -- we -- we went to collect it, and we go to sleep, so the Ponevezher [indecipherable], the Mr. Cantor here, the brother here [indecipherable] Cantor. I don't know if you remember, he -- he wa -- he was a very important man there. And the president -- the president's name was a Hebrew name, he had a Hebrew name, a family name. But [indecipherable] also very rich. He s-says well, tomorrow we can leave. You're about to have an appointment nine o'clock. The man is not here a millionaire, he Interview with Moshe Kraus * November 30, 2014

never gave money, but it was -- all of a sudden he got a heart tra -- heart -- heart attack, and God helped him, he's all right. Since then he changed. He gave his money, and this is -- this 3,000 dollars is in cra -- your pocket, 3,000 rand, 3,000 dollars is in your pocket. Okay. We went to sleep. Went in the morning davening, had breakfast, by the chief rabbi, and we go over to the appointment 9:00. We come over there, and Ponevezher, nobody had to open his mouth. He could talk, mamma mia. He explained to him yeshiva [indecipherable] 10,000 pupils. And [indecipherable] says, Rabbi, I would like to honor you, you are a great rabbi by me, I am also Lithuanian -- the ma -- the man is a Lithuanian. But yeshiva don't say for me nothing. I -- I -- I don't believe in it. Come to me about everything, but not yeshiva. I'm sorry. Ah, don't get excited, he's used to these things. He begins again, for another five minutes, and he says, I'm sorry rabbi. Ah, you try your best and you're a good speaker, but I don't give. Okay. And we said goodbye, and we gave him a blessing. We stand already by the door. The rabbi Kahaneman turns to him and says, I want you to tell -- I want to tell you that I'm not insulted, and I'm not cross with you, I'm cross on myself. You didn't give me because it is my fault.

Rabbi, what is this your fault? I will tell you, every day when I pray, I have a prayer in my --

A2: Extra prayer.

Interview with Moshe Kraus ~ November 30, 2014

A: -- in between my -- all the prayers, that g -- God [indecipherable]. I would so -- much so -- like so much to be a to -- and study your Torah, and Torah, Torah, Torah [indecipherable] and Bible is all. But if I will not go and make money, they will not have [indecipherable] enough to eat, the -- the pupils there. So forgive me, and I beg you only, see that the people shall receive me with honor, and they shall be good to me, and nice to me. Today I didn't say the prayer, because the people told me this 3,000 dollar, 3,000 rand --

Q: Is safe.

A: -- is in your pocket. So it is not your fault, it is my fault because I didn't say the prayer, and I wish you good health and all the best. The man got so excited, rabbi please, come back. Came back, sit down, took out a check, gave him a check of 10,000 rand -- 30,000 dollars.

A2: Okay, now I

A: I don't know if--I don't know --

Q: [indecipherable] it's called reverse psychology.

A: I don't know if it is interesting for you.

A2: No, it's -- it's -- sure it's interesting, because you experience it. I was to -- I have to go back when we lived in Antwerp, and the story when he went to a concert in -- in Glasgow. I think it's a very cute story. Okay, after he finished the concert, the http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014 next day he was supposed to leave in the afternoon, back to Antwerp, to take the plane after noon. And during the day, the people there were working. It's -- it's a me --he lived -- he stayed with a family called Mendelson, don't know if it's important, because we met him later in Israel, afterward. And so the whole day, he didn't have what to do, cause he --

A: In the morning A2: I'm talking in the morning, because there was nobody, they went to work, and so --

A: And I'm sitting there with a shiksa.

A2: Yeah, the -- the maid, yeah. So decided is go -- he goes to downtown, they will walk around, and they will come back just before the rest to leave. When -- when he went there, he passed a small -- a narrow small street, and there was a window, and in the window of the shop was an outfit, it's called the Scottish plaid -- plaid.

Q: Plaid.

A2: Yeah, plaid. A skirt, a top, a hat, gloves, all in plaid and -- and -- and white, and an umbrella, and he said it's -- and it was unique, he said I -- I must buy it for my -- my wife. Yeah? Okay.

Q: I think I know where this is going, but I'm not -- I'm just guessing.

Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

A2: Yeah. So he went in, and I have to tell you, he didn't know a word of English then. So he goes in and he thought he would look around at one of the girls was -- the sellers, if she'll be my size, he will tell her something. But apparently he tells me they were all tall and flat as any -- not my size. And so he said, wait. Went in the street, was -- was either so naive or stupid, one of those two things, and he was thinking he will see a woman passing by my size, he will ask her to come in and -- and -- so you -- you -- you tell it, what did you tell to her? What is --

A: So -- so I find -- I saw a shiksa in her size, and I went up to her, and my English was very poor, very poor. And I tried to a-- you, my wife --

A2: And he shows her -- yeah --

A: You were -- so she was thinking I --

A2: He proposes to her.

A: [indecipherable] go to hell. And no, please, you, my wife --

A2: Ca--come, come, he said, come.

A: And I -- I show her the [indecipherable] and -- and, you know, and she called the police.

A2: Yeah, yeah, that's a true story.

A: And the police [indecipherable] the police.

A2: In the s -- in the station.

Interview with Moshe Kraus *deg November 30, 2014

A: And I - and I don't know to talk. I want to explain it. They don't know English, I don't know English. I know German perfect, and I know Czech, I know Hungarian, Romanian --

Q: Lots of languages, lots of

A2: [indecipherable] but not the -- not English.

A: A lot of languages, but I don't know English.

A2: So he ask for telephone -- telephone --

A: So I- I had an idea, and I phone up --

A2: You ask for telephone.

A: What is the name?

A2: Mendelson, Mr. Mendelson.

A: Me -- me?

A2: Mendelson.

A: Mendelson. And I phoned up Mr. Mendelson. And I said Mr. Mendelson --

A2: In Yiddish he tells him the story.

A: --Thave here trouble, and I can't explain in English, I need somebody to explain me.

A2: I'm ina police station, he said.

Interview with Moshe Kraus *deg November 30, 2014

A: I--I---I---I---I---Ihave trouble here. And he took the car, and came. And he came to [indecipherable] and they told him something in English, and he says to me, you gave such a beautiful concert last night. I was so proud of --

A2: In Yiddish, in Yiddish, say it in Yiddish.

Q: Talk Yiddish.

A2: [indecipherable]

A: No Yiddish. Yeah, Yiddish.

A2: [indecipherable]

A: I was so proud of you, you know you did such a thing. What did I do? You stop a girl and tell her --

A2: You proposed.

A: [indecipherable] girl, and I tell her what I wanted, and he begin to laugh. He explained it to them, and they began to laugh. And she came with me, and she tried it, and I brought it home.

A2: And he bought it -- and he bought me ho -- the whole thing, right -- yeah, yeah.

A: Yeah. Wait, wait, we are not finished. And I brought it home. And I wanted to surprise her, so I went in the bedroom and I --

A2: Spread it out.

57 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: -- spread it on the bed, and nothing. All of a sudden she goes in in the bedroom, and she comes out, you are crazy. This is not good for me, that is small on me.

What can I do, I give it away. But in the meantime she tried it on, and -- A2: It was perfect.

A: -- it was beautiful. She went crazy. She -- she couldn't go in -- in the street. The way -- the way in they used to make it, the cars, you used to -- A2: [indecipherable] it was so outstanding.

A: [indecipherable] looking at her, they forgot to move the car.

A2: Yeah.

A: Imean -- A2: Yeah.

A: Anyway, so -- so what -- what I want to finish off the story. Years later, I don't know, four or five years later, and I'm in Israel.

A2: No, much longer, much -- 20 years later.

A: No, no.

A2: Because we came already from South Africa.

A: No, no.

A2: Okay.

A: From South Africa, but it wa -- for a few years later.

Interview with Moshe Kraus *deg November 30, 2014

A2: Yeah, much later, yeah.

A: No, no, five, six years later.

A2: Okay.

A: And I was so [indecipherable] and there is a cousin of mine, and he lost his mother or father, I don't remember already. And I feel to go to --

A2: [indecipherable]

A: [indecipherable] Yeshiva. To go to yeshiva.

Q: In Israel.

A2: Yeah.

Q: To visit Israel.

A: Yeah, Israel. And I go to Mincha Maariv, and after Mincha Maariv we are sitting, and all of a sudden I told this story, I don't know why it came up, and I told the story, and all of a sudden, I finish the story [indecipherable] get up. The story is true, I'm the son-in-law of Mendelson.

A2: And right away -- Karl Mendelson only was already an old man, but he was still alive then, and it was --

A: No, but he is my father-in-law, he said it happened. Mendelson is my father-in- law. And he was with the story.

A2: It's not important story, but it's a-- you know, it's part of life.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus ~ November 30, 2014

Q: It's part of life, exactly.

A2: Exactly.

A: Life.

A2: Okay, yeah, I saw it, okay. Now we can continue with jane -- with Johannesburg. What is important Johannesburg? Don't know what -- what is important. When you flew to Kimberly, which was then southwest Africa, today it's n-- today it's called -- what is called South Africa? It's --

A: Mozambique?

A2: No, no, was o --I'll-- Tl come to Mozambique

Q: Zimbabwe?

A2: Namibia, Namibia.

Q: Oh, Namibia.

A: Bolivia.

A2: [indecipherable] namib -- Namibia, and then you flew --

A: Bolivia.

A2: No, Namibi --

A: But before it was not [indecipherable] A2: It was southwest Africa.

A: Before?

Interview with Moshe Kraus degdeg November 30, 2014

A2: Southwest Africa, it was called.

A: Southwest Africa, yeah.

A2: And Kimberly is of course the -- where all the -- the diamonds come from. At least came. So what's a story there? Yeah, yeah, this was the story with Sam Cohen that I want to tell, Sam Cohen? No, Sam Cohen was in a different country. Yeah, yeah, there, in Namibia.

A: Sam Cohen -- Sam Cohen, they wanted -- the day he come, the si-- the brother -- brother-in-law of the Bobby -- the Rababe(ph) Shiraba(ph) came.

A2: Right, is it important?

A: But he wants to meet Sam Cohen.

A2: Is it important to tell the story?

A: It happened in South Africa.

A2: But is it important to tell, or no?

A: Yeah, interesting story [indecipherable] Rababe(ph) Shiraba(ph).

A2: Okay, so tell it.

Q: Raba [indecipherable] Shiraba(ph)?

A: The Rababe(ph) Shiraba(ph), his brother-in-law, the Gur Aryeh(ph). Gur Aryeh(ph). So he arrived there one day --

Q: Hang on. Gur Aryeh(ph) --

Interview with Moshe Kraus *" November 30, 2014

A: Gur --

Q: Wasn't that --

A: Was the brother-in-law of Rababe(ph) Shiraba(ph).

Q: Wasn't that Kaufman, the --- Gur Aryeh(ph), wasn't that Kaufman -- no, that was -- okay, my -- I'm con -- okay, I'm -- go ahead.

A: Anyway, I'm sitting at home. I'm waiting for the chief rabbi from London, from England, Rabbi Jacobowitz to come to me for lunch with his wife. They ca -- they were guests in Johannesburg, and they were invited to me for lunch. And now I'm sitting and waiting for them. Goes the telephone, and the telephone is, my name is Rabbi Gur Aryeh(ph), brother-in-law of Rababe(ph) Shiraba(ph). The Rababe(ph) Shiraba(ph) send me here to Sam Cohen. This is the name Sam Cohen, to take from him a million dollar. And a million dollar was three million rand. A million rand was three million dollar. Turned out today [indecipherable] rand, three doll -- three million dollar [indecipherable] and I can bring you to him, but if he will give it, I don't know. This is not your business. I have to -- have to go to him. But come and pick me up [indecipherable] brother-in-law of the Rababe(ph) Shiraba(ph) jumped into the car, [indecipherable] to the airport.

[indecipherable] I find a Gur Aryeh(ph), and I brought them home, Jacobowitz was already waiting for me, we had lunch. And I am a talker.

Interview with Moshe Kraus * November 30, 2014

A2: Yeah, we know that.

A: But th-this day, at this lunch I didn't tek -- talk at all, I heard. I listened to the two people who they talk fantastic. And f-finish the lunch, and he left. And now Gur Aryeh tells me, I want to go to Sam Cohen. So, I can make you an appointment.

No, no, no, the Sam Cohen is not here in Johannesburg. So where is this Sam Cohen? In Port Elizabeth.

A2: No, no, in Namibia. In Namibia.

Q: In southwestern --

A: No, not in Namibia. In -- in -- in-- in -- what was the name of the city?

Q: Kimberly?

A2: Kimberly.

A: Kimberly.

A2: Yeah.

A: Yeah.

A2: Yeah, Kimberly, yeah.

A: Kimberly. It's a ba -- fantastic city Kimberly, Sam Cohen?

A2: It's to fly, but [indecipherable]

A: Here, in Johannesburg is famous, Sam Cohen is famous in the world. A billionaire. I never heard it in Kimberly, I was in Kimberly a few times, I never Interview with Moshe Kraus degdeg November 30, 2014

heard of Sam Cohen. Moshe, then we go to Kimberly, and he already formed a [indecipherable] they are organized [indecipherable]. He had a phone call from a

Q: Agency.

A: -- from a helicopter business --

Q: Oh, wow.

A: -- and they send the helicopter to take us to Kimberly.

Q: Wow.

A: Okay, I went with him to Kimberly. I have to be there an hour, I don't mind.

And to fly an hour and back an hour, nothing.

A2: It's more than an hour.

A: We arrive in Kimberly, and where do we go? To the chief rabbi. What was his name? Brenner. Brenner.

A2: Don't ask me, I don't know.

A: Brenner. Yeah, Brenner. Chief Rabbi Brenner. He came unto the chief rabbi, and the chief rabbi know me, Moreishela(ph), ah, shalom aleikhem. So this is the brother-in-law of that shi-- Rababe(ph) Shiraba(ph), brother-in-law Rababe(ph) Shiraba(ph), he was so excited. What can I do for you? He wants an address from Sam Cohen. Who is Sam Cohen? Sam Cohen [indecipherable] Sam Cohen in Interview with Moshe Kraus "4 November 30, 2014

Johannesburg. No, no, no. Here is a Sam Cohen a millionaire. [indecipherable] a millionaire, not a Sam Cohen. I| have never heard the name Sam Cohen here in Kimberly. The Rababe(ph) Shiraba(ph) send a man special to Kimberly to meet Sam Cohen, and he's not -- he's not in Kimberly? Okay, we leave. What can we do? And that evening we go to synagogue. Now I go from man to man, excuse me, you know Sam Cohen? Yeah, sure, in --

A2: Johannesburg.

A: -- Johannesburg. No, no, no, here in Kimber -- no.

A2: No.

A: Sam Cohen? No. In Johannesburg. Nobody knows here Sam Cohen. So walking, I say to the rabbi, I think we don't have to lose time. There is no Kimberly, this is a mistake. And we will [indecipherable] but for the moment, let us go home. Why wa -- should we spend money and pay in the hotel and stay over when nobody knows from Sam Cohen. And he, unbelievable, he believe in the rabbi. If the rabbi send me here, here is a Sam Cohen. Anyhow, he knows what he is doing, and he was very famous, the Rababe(ph) Shir(ph). And we will sleep over, and tomorrow we will find him. I can't fight with him, brother-in-law of the Rababe(ph) Shiraba(ph). So we slept over.

Q: Ihave to close the window.

Interview with Moshe Kraus degdeg November 30, 2014

A: No, no, we -- we went to the hotel. Oh, we are going to the hotel --

Q: Go, go, go.

A: -- oh, we are going to the hotel, a man walks in in me. A man, I would give him a dollar. [indecipherable] Oh, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. Said, don't be sorry, it can happen. I know you. You are [indecipherable]. You are the son-in-law of the Rababe(ph) Shiraba(ph). I am Rababe(ph) Shirhoset(ph). What is your name?

Sam Cohen. What are you doing here? Don't ask. I'm ashamed to tell you. Why [indecipherable] ashamed, but I heard you're a millionaire. I am a millionaire, but I'm ashamed what I'm doing. What is? He arrived after the war, he was in concentration camp [indecipherable]. After the war he arrived, he couldn't find something to do in Johannesburg. He couldn't find. All of a sudden [indecipherable] I don't know -- to Kimberly --

Q: Not by helicopter.

A: Yeah, anyway, he came to Kimberly, and he somehow built in the mountain, where they had the diamonds, and outside from the diamonds, the inside the black people worked. They got billions of diamonds. But outside he succeeded to build up a little shop in a little [indecipherable] to live. And he began to sell the -- wh-what the b-bl-black meat. And they all could buy, they buy cash. Bad checks, well, who knows from check? And he used to take the money and count and put it in bags,

Interview with Moshe Kraus degdeg November 30, 2014

quarter million. Every quarter million he made a package and put it up -- upstairs there, and he stayed there. He wasn't afraid somebody will [indecipherable] or nothing, nothing. He was there all the day. He was watching it. And he had that, I don't know how many bags, with quarter of millions of dollars, cash. So -- and this is what I do, come to me you will see. And we -- straightaway we went to him. And we came to him, ah, dirty place unbelievable. There wasn't where to sit down, but she cleaned it and she made it something. I mean, you sit down, and you find a l'chaim and you had a I'chaim [indecipherable] I don't know. Anyway, the rabbi said -- he tells him, the rabbi told him that he will give him a million rand. He straightaway got up and took out four little --

Q: Bags?

A2: Bags?

A: -- bags, and put it down. And we take the four bags, and we left to the hotel, and we cou -- can -- went to sleep. The next day -- from Johannesburg you couldn't take out the rand, not one rand you couldn't take out. You were not allowed. Only all -- all -- all the money had to me from -- from -- from all the world, were pounds, dollars, gudens(ph), kronen, the -- not rand. Rand was holy for South Africa. So we need somebody to -- to -- to -- to do something for us. There was a choset(ph), a [indecipherable] choset(ph), Rabbi Aloy(ph). What a man. Remember -- ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Moshe Kraus deg" November 30, 2014 A2: Yeah, he was a unique human being, unique, yeah.

A: What a ra -- what a rabbi, there wasn't such a rabbi, never. Shoo. And he got -- he --he could do things in the government. So I said to him, listen, I will go -- we will go to Rabbi Aloy(ph), and I'm sure Rabbi Aloy(ph) will find a way how we can take out the million rand.

Q: Take the -- take it out of the country.

A2: Yeah.

A: We came to Rabbi Aloy and Rabbi Aloy and Rabbi Gur(ph) -- Gur Aryeh(ph), he -- he went crazy. And when he -- he [indecipherable] what can I get to [indecipherable] he went -- he went crazy. So I told him, don't get crazy. This is the thing. We have a million dollars. We want -- want to get permission to take it out. No problem. He went into Pretoria and some two hours later he came back with dollars, with three million dollars instead of one million rand, three million dollars, a check for the bank in -- in -- in -- in -- in --in America -- A2: Yeah.

A: -- for the South African bank to -- to -- to pay it out.

A2: Yeah, this is one story, yeah.

A: An-And -- and this -- and this is a story how we took out and the three million dollars for the Rababe(ph) Shiraba(ph). [indecipherable] I came to a wedding.

Interview with Moshe Kraus degdeg November 30, 2014

Very famous wedding, Vasner(ph), a very famous Jew, a very famous Orthodox Jew.

A2: This was a lady in New York, the wedding was in New York.

A: Yeah, and I kept -- I was invited to the -- the -- the wedding, I married all his children. And I think it was the youngest daughter.

A2: Yeah.

A: I think so.

Q: Mizinkai(ph).

A2: Yeah.

A: Yeah. Anyway, I arrive in -- by -- by -- by the entrance of the famous hotel --

Q: Waldorf?

A2: No.

A: No.

A2: The corner near the par -- in the park.

Q: The -- the --

A2: Opposite the park.

Q: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A2: Yeah. Yeah.

A: The most famous hotel in --

Interview with Moshe Kraus degdeg November 30, 2014

Q: Plaza.

Q2: The Plaza.

A2: Plaza.

Q: Plaza.

A2: The Plaza, right.

A: The Plaza. The Plaza Hotel.

A2: Yeah, yeah.

A: He stays with his wife, to receive every guest. You know, he starts with me and receiving me. Moshe, with you I must go up. I must bring you up. Kris -- respect, I had to do the wedding, he bring me sp -- he brought me special. And how we go in this -- the elevator, and he tells me, you know, I don't remember you re -- remember the story where the [indecipherable] cu -- caught Rababe(ph) Shir(ph) and they cut off his beard. You remember this? Oh, it was in all the papers [indecipherable] the two rabbis made peace, and -- and -- and -- and they wouldn't let th-the -- because they -- they -- Rababe(ph) Shir(ph) want to do something. And the rabbi said no.

Was -- what was -- that was a crazy night. What can you do? They're just crazy people, sick people. No. But it was the first time they met. Gur Aryeh(ph) came to the wedding to present the Rababe(ph) Shiraba(ph) in Ashkenazi, the head -- head rabbi of the south Berraba(ph) came to present the south Berraba(ph). Said to me, Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

Gur Aryeh -- Mendelson, you know, Gur Aryeh(ph) is not more of the same. He doesn't know what is going on. He came, and I thou -- and I -- and I gave them money. I gave them how much? [indecipherable] Five million dollars.

A2: I don't know but this has nothing to do with -- it's a waste of time, Moshe.

A: [had to [indecipherable] I had to [indecipherable]

A2: It's a waste of time, cause that has nothing to do with you. I'm sorry Moshe, I'm sorry --

A: Okay.

A2: But really. No, because we only one day and we want to --

A: Very, very interesting story.

A2: Okay, so --

A: And the finish is very interesting, but no, no, there she --

A2: Yeah, anyhow --

A: If I have a good story, she wouldn't let me to tell it. She wants to tell the stories.

Okay, you tell the stories.

A2: No, I'm not telling, I'm just reminding --

A: No, no, no, no, no. You tell the stories, you want to tell it, I don't say --

A2: From South Africa.

A: --I don't say more a word.

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014 A2: Moshe, it's nothing personal.

A: But as soon you finish, and we will eat lunch, I will finish with the story.

Q: Okay.

A2: Yeah, good. It's nothing personal.

A: Because -- and leave -- leave a little open place to have the punch.

Q: Okay.

A2: Okay, from South Africa we traveled to Istanbul. I just remind you, you can tell a story what was in Istanbul. I just remind you, Moshe, what was special Istanbul. No, you're not talking?

A: What? No, no, I--I don't -- I don't want to talk. I'm not talking more.

A2: Okay. So I--I don't -- okay.

A: You will tell the story, they came to listen to you, not to me.

A2: Then in Teheran, the story in Teheran. No? You wanted to tell --

Q: I think that's here.

A2: Yeah?

Q: Cause I remember something about that in the -- A2: Yeah.

Q: But I'm not going to start looking through this, but you could -- what happened at Teheran?

Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

A: She will tell you.

A2: Okay, we -- we came to Teheran just for three days. We arrived Friday, we suppo -- supposed to leave Sunday. So, I found -- we found the embassy, Israeli embassy, and asked them where can we have Shabbat, we want to pay. And they send us to a family, we stayed there. But --

A: An Israeli fellow.

A2: Yeah, they were Israeli, right. It was a shaliach. Yeah. Whenever we came to a place, and Moshe didn't have to perform --

Q2: What was the name of the [indecipherable]

A2: This I don't remember, yeah. Where we stayed?

Q2: No, of the shaliach.

A2: I don't remember -- this was -- I don't remember.

Q: Just cause his uncle was in Teheran. What years are we talking about?

A2: This was in "62 -- "62, yeah. Anyhow, so we stayed there. And when we traveled to a city Moshe didn't perform, he s -- he didn't even say his name right, he said Moshe Shapiro, or Shamir(ph), or Shapeer(ph). I said, Moshe Shapeer(ph).

This was --

Q: You went just for a tr --just for a trip?

A2: No, we -- we stopped there --

Interview with Moshe Kraus (r) November 30, 2014

A: She talks; I won't talk.

A2: -- from Israel, when we traveled to -- I think to is -- no, from Johannesburg that time, when you travel to Israel, we have to stop in-- in Teheran.

Q: Okay.

A2: Because the -- El Al couldn't fly over Africa then. So we -- they flew through Teheran. So we were there three days.

Q: It's ironic today to think that you couldn't go to Africa, but you could go to Teheran, for Israelis.

A2: Yeah, to ir-- yeah, yeah, yeah. Well --

Q: The world has changed.

A: And I was rece -- and I was received by the shah.

Q: Wow.

A2: Now wait, wait. So, we were there. Shabbat, we went to shul. There were the Ashkenazi shul, where all the mishulachim(ph), all the Israelis doubled, and a few Ashkenazim, because mostly they had Sephardic shul, and the service guest. So they ask him -- they gave him Haftorah. They didn't always. Said Moshe Shapeer(ph). Yeah, I said, he's a diamond merchant from Johannesburg, this is what he said. Because we knew, once they hear [indecipherable] sing something for us [indecipherable] because you know. So, this is how we -- the way how we http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014 avoided it. So, but when he -- when he said Haftorah, they saw in the Haftorah that's -- that's unusual. His diction, first of all, is perfect, and his voice, even not singing, but reciting -- so they looked at him. And I was -- like this is what they wou -- the ladies" shul, I was standing in the door, because I wanted to see and hear, and I was the only lady there. So I hear two men walking up and down, walking up, down.

And they're looking at -- look at him, and I hear one says to the other, are you sure this is Moshe Shapeer(ph)? Because I could swear this is Moshe Kraus. I know him from the army. This was a story in Istanbul that --

Q: In Teheran.

A2:--in Teheran, Teheran. Wait. Then, when we walked out the shul, we went out, we see thousands of people in the street. By the way, don't know if it's interesting, but then in "62, all the sewage in te -- in Teheran were open. It was -- the main st -- is it no? It was open.

Q: [indecipherable] was there.

A2: Of course, I got sick, by the way. But this -- I'm not going to tell this. I sit [indecipherable] waiting in the street, so we ask, what's happening? They told us that then was Brezhnev the secretary of Russia, of the --

Q: Soviet Union.

Interview with Moshe Kraus (r) November 30, 2014

A2:--yeah. And he's coming for state visit. And the shah, an-and Fra(ph) Diva(ph) went to the airport to welcome him, and they will come by -- back this way. So is this where the people stood. So we said we will wait, we'll see. And then we really saw. We saw beautiful golden carriage, with horses, you know. We saw the shah and Mr. Brezhnev. And you know, the shah was dressed beautiful

[indecipherable] with a suit and -- and then the second carriage was Fra(ph) Diva(ph) and Mrs. Brezhnev. Well, Fra(ph) Diva(ph) was as if she just walked out from Dior. She was beautiful, young and beautiful. And Mrs. Brezhnev, she looked as if she just came out from the corhose(ph). Honestly, with the duke an-and of course of as -- this [indecipherable]. So this is when we saw the shah, yeah. So this is Teheran, I don't remember what else.

A: Very interesting story. But not more interesting than my story.

A2: Yeah. Okay, what else?

A: [indecipherable] terribly disturbing, you see, this is the difference.

A2: And then in "64 was a very ebag -- a big event in our -- in our life, because the Jewish Grand Congress sent Moshe for a concert to -- behind the Iron Curtain.

Q: So this is something that's in detail --

A2: It's there?

Q: It's in detail here --

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014 A2: Okay, so -- yeah.

Q: -- and I read about it, cause I was -- A2: Yeah.

Q: -- particularly interested. I was very involved with the Soviet Jewry movement, or whatever. The fact that you did this singing tour in the 60s -- A2: Yeah.

Q: -- in the Soviet Union is fantastic.

A2: Yeah. And does he -- di-did he remember to tell you he was nearly arrested there? Is the story there?

Q: [indecipherable] I can remember the detail -- A2: No?

Q: I remember reading about the -- A2: No, because it's important. You see, they -- they send a si--a Jew ship -- shi -- was supposed to be the [indecipherable]. He -- he was -- he used to take all this -- this is there? Don't remember? He took all his music, because he had printed music for the pianist, yeah, and he checked what he was singing. And anything that has to do with Jerusalem, or freedom, or Israel, it was nyet(ph), they put a stamp, nyet(ph). But she doesn't know Moshe. He failed at his f-- his duty is to sing those ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014 songs, to sing for the Jews about Jerusalem, and about [indecipherable] and all that. So after he finish --

A: So the pianist couldn't play. He couldn't -- he couldn't -- he couldn't -- A2: Because he didn't have the music.

A: -- couldn't [indecipherable] with me. So I sing it without the piano.

A2: Because they took away the music so he shou -- he shouldn't sing that.

Q: Yeah.

A2: So after, when he finished the concert, this censor was a Jew, came to him -- and what did he tell you in Yiddish?

A: He will burn in Siber(ph) -- A2: In Yiddish, in Yiddish he told you.

A: -- his [indecipherable] in Siber(ph) A2: No, you -- no, you will rot in the Siber(ph). We will send you to Siber(ph) --

A: Yeah, yeah.

A2:--and you will rot in there, because he defied order --

A: [indecipherable] in Siber(ph) A2: And we are going to arrest you and send you there. But what saved him --

A: And I was afraid, but there were so many [indecipherable] I hoped -- A2: Because it was a historic e -- http://collections.ushmm.org

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A: --I hoped they will not do it.

A2: No. It was an historic event, the first time that a Jew came to sing for the Jews in Russia, the first time. So all the press was invited. The Russian invited the press because they wanted to show they're open, you know, and --

Q: This was organized through the -- the World Jewish Congress?

A: Yeah.

A2: Yes. And this was in 1960 -- in 1960 --

Q: Four.

A2: Four, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A: Brezhnev asked -- Brezhnev asked a singer from the Jewish Congress, he wanted to show the world -- A2: They're open. Yeah, I said that --

A: -- that the Jewish singer can -- A2: --I said that.

A: Yeah, but -- but -- but what happened, they decided pa -- Moshe Kraus is more interesting, they wanted Koussevitzky.

Q: Okay.

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A: But they said Moshe Kraus is more interesting because Koussevitzky sang only hazzonahs(ph). I sang hazzonahs(ph), Yiddish, Hebrew, hasidis(ph). I had four programs. So I gave two hours, but they were not boring.

A2: Yeah.

A: Because this was every -- everything --

Q: It's a variety.

A: --was a different.

Q: Was a variety.

A: He only again hazzonahs, again hazzonahs(ph), again hazzonahs(ph) for two hours. It was a little too long. It was a -- A2: And a-- and another thing --

A: -- a-after -- then in the second hour, people wanted to -- already that he shall finish.

A2: And another thing. I don't know if Moshe mentioned that he was the chief cantor of the Israeli army. Did he mention that? So as a -- as an officer of the army, he was a, you know, bigger draw than a cantor from the States, all right? Okay, so this is one story.

A: Because Goldman wanted to send Koussevitzky.

Q: Yeah.

Interview with Moshe Kraus .deg November 30, 2014

A: But then they said to them, no, Moshe Kraus [indecipherable] Moshe --

A2: Yeah, now tell them the story with the -- the Jew that came to sh -- to your shul, and he told you -- he sang the song of -- of his father, and he told you to --

Q: When you went to -- one sec -- when you went to -- to the tour of the Soviet Union --

A2: Yeah.

Q: -- you were s -- you went from Johannesburg. Now, you were living in Johannesburg and you went from there.

A2: Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, "64 we were still in johan --

A: No, we were --

A2: Okay, I'll come back to it. When we -- we arrived the first sta -- the first stop --

Q: Did you go with him on the tour of Soviet Union?

A2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I si-- then -- then I traveled with him everywhere. Now he goes by himself.

A: She was afraid.

A2: Yeah. The first stop was Belgrade, where we stopped, when we came to this -- and Belgrade was the most open, they --

A: They didn't put the [indecipherable] they nearly put in the jail.

A2: No, that's another story, and this is in Prague. You're [indecipherable] Moshe http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus ia November 30, 2014

A: In Prague -- A2: No, I'm -- I talk bel --

A: Prague is also by -- A2: No-

A: -- communists -- A2: Yeah, but their country, Moshe, I --

A: The country -- A2:1--lm---I'ms -- first in Belgrade --

A: Okay, I'll not interfere, no.

A2: Yeah, okay, this is import -- no, yeah, don't interfere. In -- in Prague, in Belgrade, the cons -- the Israeli consulate invited us for lunch, and they asked us where you going, and Moshe told them, we're going behind the curtain. So this what he told us, it's very important. He said -- and -- and I -- we traveled til we came to Canada. I told you, we traveled Israeli passports --

Q: Israeli passports.

A2: -- yeah. So, he said, this is the word that he told me, it's important for later, he said, if you are behind the Iron Curtain, and anything happens to you, if for some reason they don't like the color of your eyes, this what he said, and they arrest you, http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus ia November 30, 2014 remember, there's nothing we can do. There's nothing we can do, the Israeli can do, because they --

Q: There's no diplomat -- A2: -- the -- the time, okay. That's important.

A: They had no connection.

A2: That's important for a later story, what you said. From per -- Belgrade, yeah, this is very important. We left the hotel Friday morning --

A: You want me to tell a story, what story?

A2: No, I'm going to tell the story in Belgrade, we stayed a shi -- the whole night.

Friday, the story with the storm. You'll -- you'll hear it.

A: It's Hungary?

A2: No. Wait a second. We -- we stayed in hotel. We're supposed to leave Friday morning at -- it's an hour flight to Budapest. So nine o'clock we're supposed to leave, so we [indecipherable] we" ll arrive 10 o'clock Friday, it's a long day, right, because we -- of course we don't travel on Shabbat [indecipherable]

A: Because I never fly Friday, I never travel.

A2: No, no, til then we did. After this we stopped, we said no. So anyhow, we arrived, and th-th-the plane doesn't move, there's a snowstorm unbelievable. So we're leaving at 10. Then they said we leave at 11 -- 11 -- by the time it was one http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus * November 30, 2014 o'clock, they said the flight is cancelled, but you know what? We couldn't go back to town because everything was frozen. There was no taxis. It was such a--a snowstorm they never had in history. So we couldn't go home -- back to the hotel.

A: Twenty centimeters -- A2: Yeah, n-no -- no taxi would travel there. So the main dis --

Q: Sounds like Montreal.

A2: And then, at that time, this was 64, this was -- no, this was actually sic -- December 63, I don't -- the end of the year, and at that time there was no hotel at the airport. I don't know today, but I'm talking about then.

A: There was no airport.

A2: No airport, yeah, there was a airport.

A: [indecipherable] the airport.

A2: Actually, all the plane that we saw there, interesting, we didn't see any plane from the west. They all was from the country --

Q: [indecipherable] and Aeroflot, and -- A2: --and lots of other of Arab -- and Arab -- Arabs, lots of south af -- south Arabia, all those, but not western plane. And how it looked, okay, what shall I tell you? To make the story short, we stayed the whole Shabbat at the airport, without food, without drink, without beds. There was no hotel -- seating -- Interview with Moshe Kraus * November 30, 2014

A: With no ta -- with no toilet.

A2: No, toilet was. We were sitting on a bench the whole Shabbat, the whole Shabbat. Never happened to us in our life. We -- we had no choice. We didn't know where to go, right? Yeah. So, but Saturday night, of course, Satur --

A: Shabbas is finish very early.

A2: Early in winter.

Q: Oh yeah, winter.

A2: So Moshe, you tell the story. You found somebody, a Polish pilot.

A: Yeah, we are sitting -- we are sitting. You can't go in the city, you can't --

A2: Feeling sor -- feeling sorry for ourself.

A: -- do nothing, we -- we are sitting. All of a sudden comes in two pilots.

A2: Poland.

A: I didn't know Polish, I didn't know nothing.

A2: Yeah, but we -- no, no, but we knew he was a --

A: But I want to -- I was a little -- you know, I -- I had chutzpah. I went up to them, where are you going? To London we -- we -- we take things --

A2: Some deliveries, yeah.

A: -- fro -- there fro-fro-fro -- from Poland to -- to -- to London. Could you pass by Budapest? No, we [indecipherable]. I give you a hundred dollars.

Interview with Moshe Kraus = November 30, 2014

Q: Wow.

A: [indecipherable] hundred dollars was then a lot of money.

Q: Especially [indecipherable]

A: And I have a concert Saturday night.

A2: Oh yeah, forgot to tell it, yeah.

A: 1--I---I-Ihave a concert Saturday night, eight o'clock begins the concert, and all the tickets are sold in the -- and the opera, you know, and how many cantors had concerts in operas? So a hundred dollar, they look each other and they speak in Polish, although I speak Czech, but this is not -- not -- not --

A2: [indecipherable] [phone ringing]

Q: Excuse me, that's my phone. A hundred bucks to get to --

A2: It -- it took us to Budapest.

A: So they talk to each other in Polish, and all of a sudden they tell me, okay, we take you to Poland.

A2: To Bucharest.

Q: To Budapest.

A: To om -- to Budapest.

A2: So he took.

A: Because if anyway they pass by, they only had to --

Interview with Moshe Kraus .deg November 30, 2014

A2: Stop. Land, land.

A: Stop there.

A2: Land, land, yeah.

A: But they -- they -- they pass by.

A2: Yeah.

A: Okay. So y-you can -- you can't imagine how bo -- there was boxes, and they -- with ropes, they bop -- they -- they -- they ca --

A2: Yeah, to -- cause -- so there was no seats.

A: [indecipherable] all the boxes that they shall not --

A2: It was a commercial airplane that was --

A: -- fell, that they shall not fell down.

A2: Yeah.

A: That it -- it was a commercial plane. And we arrived in Budapest.

A2: And have time --

A: And I'm --I straightaway go straight to the -- to the --

A2: Opera.

A: -- opera. Because I -- we arrived I think seven 0'clock.

A2: Yeah.

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A: And I know we - til we ar- arrive, I have to change, from rushing and na -- forget A2: We didn't have time to go to the hotel first.

A: -- that I have to change, because I used to appear with the -- A2: [indecipherable] tuxedo. Tuxedo?

A: -- tuxedo, very modern. And how I am arriving, there is a manager, what was his name?

A2: Don't ask me. [indecipherable]

A: An old friend.

A2: Doesn't matter.

A: Yeah. Moshe, you are here, didn't know what is ga -- everybody is here and -- and -- and you are not here. And I told him quick the story, take me my room -- he took me in the room. I took out that shirt, I took out the tie, the [indecipherable] A2: You change, you change, yeah.

A: --and I dressed -- changed. And I run on -- I am on -- on -- on -- on -- on the [indecipherable] A2: Stage. Stage.

A: -- and I want to begin to -- the concert. And we ca -- no time to rehearse, nothing.

But I said to the girl, the girl -- a girl was my pianist, and I don't -- I don't like to Interview with Moshe Kraus a November 30, 2014

make like a lot of singers that she can begin, no, I -- and she watches me, and she begin.

A2: When he -- when he knows --

Q: Yeah, I know, I know.

A: I'm very, very elegante in these things. You know, I'm looking, am I making this? Nothing. Possibly she ni-- didn't watch me.

Q: [indecipherable]

A: Nothing. So here I turned, and I look, and I see she is sitting. And I go up, what is going on? Can't you see? All the people are crying. This is the first time a man with a tuxedo, with respect --

A2: A Jewish artist.

A: -- appears. Because they used to appear maybe like dressed in the cohose(ph).

Q: Yeah.

A: They were very, very, very, very plain. And all of a sudden, with such respect, I respected her very much, and that respect, and you know, the Budapest opera. I don't know if you have seen the opera, what an opera. Anyway, I waited a little -- A2: Calmed down.

A: -- and she just [indecipherable]

A2: Calmed down.

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A: Yeah. And -- and she began to play. And here happened something that my -- my rabbi when I was chazzan in Budapest remained alive, and he comes up to the station -- to the ba -- ba -- and introduced me.

Q: Oh wow.

A: And he speaks about me, and then he says to me, you know Moshele(ph), I can't tell you how I cried when I heard you singing to remind -- to reme-member how you used to do the services. We never since then had a chazzan like you, and we never had such a chazzan. Very nice.

Q: That must have been very emotional to go back to Budapest after -- A2: Of course, of course.

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: [indecipherable] chazzan.

A2: Yeah.

A: Yeah, yeah, of course. Was the first time I came after the war, yeah?

A2: Yeah.

Q: First time back.

A2: Yeah, yeah.

A: Beca -- because they I came for 28 years every Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur.

A2: No, no, this was much later. [indecipherable] ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Moshe Kraus *deg November 30, 2014

A: And the Jewish World Congress paid for me. They couldn't pay, they didn't have the money. And I couldn't go for nothing.

Q: No.

A: Okay, they paid me with something less, but I was happy.

A2: Yeah. In Budapest when you were there, you made a few friends, I remember this opera singer, I don't know his name, and his wife that was still alive. You met them and they took us out.

A: Yeah, yeah.

A2: Yeah. It was very emotional, the [indecipherable] Budapest.

A: I was very happy there.

A2: Very emotional. Okay, from --

Q: Nice.

A: And the shul is standing still, but today it is empty.

A2: Yeah.

A: All the Orthodox Jews left. Only the foreign Jews remained. [indecipherable] a foreign Jew -- A2: Yeah.

Q: It's nice.

A: -- the most beautiful shul in the world.

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Q: Really?

A: You must go to Budapest to see the refor -- you can also go and see my shul, Kazinezy, but you must go and see the -- the Reform shul.

A2: Yeah, but I have to tell you --

A: You -- you -- you must [indecipherable] because if th -- is so much to see, this is unbelievable. They build it eight years, eight years they build it.

A2: Yeah, but when we were in shul --

A: Italian builders ki -- they brought a -- a bil -- a billionaire, and he took to build the synagogue.

A2: Moshe, this has nothing to do with you.

A: The Germans would bury it -- burn it --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- because it was so beautiful.

Q: Wow.

A2: Moshe, sorry, this has nothing to do with your life, so let's go telling about -- stories about you. Who built this opera has nothing to do with you, sorry. We wasting time. What I wanted to tell, in Budapest when we were there, in the hotel, next door to the hotel was a chair, and there sat a man or a woman, and whenever we left to go somewhere, they followed us. Open.

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Q: In Budapest?

A2: In Budapest.

Q: Not -- well, they do that over there.

A2: Yeah, in "64, yeah, yeah. They followed us all the time. So -- but it was funny.

A: Special to the Russians were there, and the Russians left -- A2: We --I'm talking about "64, Moshe, th-the Russians were still there. Please.

Once, I don't remember one -- why, you wanted to get rid of them. I don't remember why, you had to meet somebody. I -- I also have to tell you that besides giving concert, he had the mission, something -- something to -- to help Jews leave the country, and -- and so he had to meet somebody, I don't know where, but [indecipherable] he didn't want to this -- so, you said to me, oh, you said, I forgot my umbrella, let's go back to the hotel -- because it was raining or something, and we went back to hotel, and for hotel, I stayed, and he left through another door. So, he went --

Q: So he lost the par -- A2: He lost the connection.

Q: -- you lost the [indecipherable] http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus 8 November 30, 2014 A2: Something like this, I-- I -- I remember, yeah, am I right? So, he had to meet somebody. This is one story. What else in Budapest? Yeah, for Budapest, we went to Vienna, yeah. From Vienna -- what is something special in Vienna?

A: Singer was interesting, the story with Singer.

A2: This is in Prague, I'm not in Prague yet, I'm going t --

A: Oh.

A2: Yeah. From Budapest we went to Vienna. Don't remember anything particularly interesting in Vienna, actually for me personally, but had nothing to do, because [indecipherable] opera level. So of course every day I went to the opera.

A: It has nothing to do with my life.

A2: Yes, you're right, you're right, sorry. Anyhow, from -- from -- you're right.

From Vienna we went to Prague. In Prague we have a few stories, a few stories.

The first one, we stayed in a hotel, and there was no western people there. The only people who stayed in this hotel was so dark from -- from iddel -- Middle East Arabs, I don't know, a-and Russians. And we were the only ones [indecipherable] of course, Israeli passport. So one day, the desk calls us and they said, there's a man come to see you. We didn't know it -- who it is. To make the story short, there was a man in -- in -- his name is Singer. Actually, he was an opera singer. And he remembered Moshe, they went to chayder together at home [indecipherable] ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton

Interview with Moshe Kraus "4 November 30, 2014

together. When he heard the name, he knew who it is. So he came to see us. At that time a local person couldn't come into hotel, the hotel was only for international visitors. You couldn't walk in. And if you walked in, you had to leave his passport at the desk, and they had to check what it is, and report to the [indecipherable] and then he came to see -- then he is allowed to come and see us. And of course that was emotional to -- Moshe didn't remember -- you remembered him? You did remember? Anyhow -- okay. And then he tells us a story like this, which is unbelievable story. He says he is married, he has four children, one son, one daughter and twin -- twin girls. And he remained a Jew. He was also in the camp and survived, but he is still a Jew, in heart. And he knows that if he'Il stay with the chil -- with the family in -- in Prague, they will lose the children. They" ll become goyim. They will intermarry, because the Jewish life wasn't as interested -- as organized. I don't know if they had the chief rabbi there -- they did -- yeah, they did have a chief rabbi. And -- and their son is already 18, and he's already a member of the youth -- they were poor -- poor gi -- poor -- poor communists, of course, [indecipherable] communists, and he's afraid he will lose them.

A: He lent me the money to buy this picture.

A2: Yeah?

A: The chief rabbi.

Interview with Moshe Kraus deg8 November 30, 2014

A2: Oh, there wa -- this is the -- the shul in Prague, the Altneuschul in Prague.

Q: Okay. Yeah.

A2: The famous Altneuschul. [indecipherable] later.

Q: That's where the -- that's where the golem is.

A2: Right, right, right, I'll tell you the story about this, I'll quickly tell it. Okay, so -- so what --

Q: Did you see -- did you see the golem?

A2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So -- so --

A: I saw myself.

A2: Yeah. So --

A: So I see the golem, because the -- there was a --

A2: Yeah.

A: -- there was a mirror. I had --I told them I want to see the golem, go up and [indecipherable] is a mirror --

A2: No, he said --

A: -- you will see him.

A2: No, he said -- he told us that American when they come, they want to see the golem.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection 96 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: So yeah, sure, you can see him, but it cost five dollars --

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A2:--to go up. And then they started going -- okay, so -- so what do you want from us, children. Listen to this, | mean it sounds unbelievable, he said, I want you to take the children out. I leave them in -- them in your hand, and you only have to promise me one thing, that you give -- give them the best Jewish education, they should remain Jews, that's all I want. Can you believe?

Q: Wow.

A2: I mean, if -- really, I mean, I -- we have proof, because it stil -- but otherwise people won't believe a story like this, right?

Q: And?

A2: And wait. So Moshe said, I can't promise you anything at the moment. I'll tra -- I'll see what I can do, and we'll see. And -- and wait. We didn't leave yet, there's another story. For when we were in Prague, Moshe got a call from Rabbi Rosen, chief rabbi from Bucharest.

Q: Of course. And chief rabbi of Romania.

A2: He has to go -- yeah, yeah, he has to go back for this mission, for whatever, you know. So he gave me my -- my passport, he gave me some money, and he left. Sh- http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014 Shall I tell the story what happened to me? It's not important. I don't have to, but it's remarkable, but I don't know -- okay, I --

A: Right, you -- you are the boss.

A2:--no -- yeah -- no, I won't tell, I won't tell. I just tell the sh-short. So Moshe left, and I remained in pra -- in Prague alone. It was very unpleasant, it -- to be in the hotel, it was all those Arabs, a woman alone, and they looked at me all the time, you know. This is not important. But this Mr. Singer, he was my connection. He is the only one I knew. And as it happened, it -- ish -- sho -- told me where to go, to the opera, and the ballet and all that. So then, we had an agreement, he didn't know how long he'lI be in -- in Bucharest, so -- and I remained a week in Prague, because this was my passport, I couldn't leave [indecipherable] or something. So we had -- we stayed from there -- at -- at -- in the meantime we were in Russia, but we told you about Russia. You forgot one story in Russia. Was the man who came to told you -- tell you that he's grandson of this -- that he sang this song for you, the Yiddish song.

Q: That's there.

A2: It's there? Okay, so we'll skip it. Okay. So -- so I left at the airport this -- by the way, nearly -- I was nearly arrested because -- just for you I'm telling this, it has nothing to do with the story -- because when we went to those countries, each time Interview with Moshe Kraus "8 November 30, 2014

we came in, we had to show the passport, we had to tell them exactly how much money we have, in what -- what currency, and also, I had to declare my jewelry, every si-- piece that I had. And when Moshe left for Bucharest, I told you, he gave me the passport, the money, forgot this paper.

Q: Ah.

A2: And he left. And when I came to the airport, they ask for the paper, I didn't have it. When I told them husband left and he took it [indecipherable] they nearly arrested me, because they told me I'm a spy, and I was -- I sold my jewelry black market. Anyhow, I left. But it was terrible, I was nearly --

Q: Yeah, at the time it's very scary --

A2: --I- ye-yeah, no, no --

Q: -- it's very frightening.

A2: --if I-- yeah. So I left, I came to Brussels, and in Brussels I was -- waited for him, I don't know, three days. And then we decided if we don't meet in Brussels I'll continue to London, and we'll meet -- we'll meet in London, right? Yeah. This is how we left. Actually, there's one little co -- he was in London [indecipherable] how it was, I remember we were in Hotel dorte -- Dorchester, yeah. At that time, when we traveled -- I still have it, when we are in Israel years ago, we both made special cu -- cu -- leather coats, for me, one for him. And we were we -- I was

Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

wearing this leather coat when I travel, and I had hat to match, also gloves. So -- and also, at this hotel at that time, when you came with luggage, you didn't go into the main entrance, there was a side entrance. And with the luggage you went to side entrance and checked in. As I was checking in, wearing the coat, all of a sudden he arrived, and I arrived, of course, with my taxi with my luggage, yeah. All of a sudden, he arrive with his taxi, with his luggage. And he comes to me, and of course we embrace. And -- and I told my -- the woman at the desk, oh, this is my husband.

Cause I checked by myself first. So she looked, oh how did you find a husband, was what she said. Anyway, said, yeah, but he's my husband -- he [indecipherable] I was so excited, cause I didn't know --

Q: It had been a wa -- yeah.

A2: P've -- no --I didn't even know if I'Il see him, because when he went for this mission it was very dangerous. But he knew -- this time I d--I don't know if you remember the --

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A2:-- atmosphere. And here I see him, he's alive, he came back. So -- so I was so excited. I said, but he's by husband. So -- so, yeah, but -- but where do you find him? So -- and there -- lucky -- he -- he wore also the same coat, that I told you.

Q: Oh yeah.

100 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: So I look at -- oh, look, he wears -- wear -- we have the same coats. And they let us so -- if not the same coat -- because his passport was still in his suitcase, and we were so excited we forgot to show them the passport, it's the same name, we just show the co -- the coat. So this is one little episode about that. Okay, what can we tell them more about the trip behind the cu -- Iron Curtain? Is there anything else?

Oh yeah, in Prague, was true -- true stor -- yeah, yeah. So this was one story, the Prague, that he wanted to give us children, right?

Q: Yes, yes, okay.

A: Okay, so let's -- I'll finish this and I'l] have another story. When we were in London --

Q: So what happened with those children?

A2: Wait. This is the story. When we were in London, Moshe got in touch with the chief rabbi, who was the che -- Jacobowitz was? I don't remember, who was rabbi che --

A: Jacobowitz.

A2: Jacobowitz, yeah. And he told them the story. So -- no, no, it wasn't that s -- that -- that fast, no, no, no, no. It wa -- it took a few years, because yeah. He -- every year -- okay -- it's po -- it's important. In Johannesburg Moshe was chazzan the shul. The shul was 1500 seats. But we have 2100 members. So 600 people davened Interview with Moshe Kraus aa November 30, 2014

every Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur in the hall, that made it [indecipherable].

So Moshe brought this Singer to be the chazzan in the hall. But the Singer never was a chazzan, he was an opera singer. So we brought him a fa -- I don't know, a week or two earlier. And day and night, and literally day and night, he taught him, learn si-- he could read. He knew the davening, he was a Jewish -- I told you a Jew, but he didn't know the nusach, and chazzan is not just singing, it's nusach. I don't even know what I'm talking about, yeah?

Q: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

A: And yeah, he taught him and he beca -- became the chazzan in -- so he brought him for about three years --

Q: To Johannesburg.

A: --to Johannesburg to be the chazzan, and he got -- he could take the money out, because he was a foreigner, and he took it back to -- to -- to Prague, and they had money extra. Prague was very bad at that time, I -- I'd have to tell you, because I remember I was asking the hotel if they have an orange. They looked at me -- and it was winter -- they looked at me as if--as if I'm asking a diamond. An orange, winter, th-they didn't ha -- they didn't have food. The only place -- yeah, yeah, we took -- they had one store for the tourists, and there was everything, and also for the communist, for the high --

102 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

Q: Yeah, yeah, for the high ranking -- A2: So, because we were tourists, we took him, you remember, to the store, and we bought him -- I remember he bought sour cream, we never -- sour cream for the children. He was so excited, he'd been missing for years sour cream. This is just an episode --

Q: Yeah.

A2: -- that was -- I don't know if it's interesting. Okay, so this" Il -- yeah, later, later, we came to London, Moshe came to London, yeah, and he went to the chief rabbi, tell him the story. So the chief rabbi said, first of all, what we have to do, we have to take out the family, because how can we take -- because we -- we can't take children without family, it's important. So what did we do? They made co -- a fake --a fi--a fictional -- fiction contract, is that fiction, no. Yeah?

Q: Fictional, yeah.

A2: Fictional contract with a certain -- with a shul that the rabbi arranged. They invited this Mr. Singer to be a chazzan in the shul for three years.

Q: In London?

A2: In London, and go to the government to show them the contract, and tell them we are going for three years, and why the -- and they allowed him to take the whole family, why? Because in London they -- they have -- I don't have other city in the 103 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 world, but London has an international school, every language. So they have also school for Czech. So the government allowed them in -- in -- in -- on condition that he takes them to -- the children to school, the Czech, yeah, and he had to leave everything behind. He had to buy books and paper, as if he is going to a school. We knew it's fiction, but --

Q: Yeah.

A2:--he had to prove the government. And he left everything behind. Everything.

All the ma -- furniture, everything. And only what they -- they could take some clothes and this, and they came to London. And they never went back, of course.

Q: Fantastic.

A2: Yeah. And -- and there were -- he was in London for a short while, and then Moshe worked to bring them to Johannesburg. How do you bring a family from the communist country to Johannesburg? Impossible. South Africa didn't have any connection with any -- any diplomatic connection with those cun -- any of the countries, communist countries then. So how -- and how can you bring a family? I remember the public prosecutor in Johannesburg, Dr. Yuta(ph) was a great friend of ours, so Moshe went to tell him the story. Said I want to bring a family. They're Jews, they're not communists, I -- I guarantee, and I want to bring them here. So, remember what Yuta(ph) told you? It ma -- it made so he said, when here will grow 104 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 hair, the government will allow a family to co-- a communist country family to come to South Africa. This is what he told you, right? I remember that. But you don't know Moshe, he doesn't take no for an answer. He went to Pretoria -- Pretoria the capital, yeah?

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A2: And he got in touch to the rabbi, Rabbi Katz, I remember, and he told him the story and he said, just make an appointment with the foreign minister, or I don't know which minister had to do with the -- with the papers, and he made the appointment with him, and he came to him and he si -- talked to him. He said -- he told him the story, and he burst out crying. He said, I am a Jew, he is a Jew. He is not a communist, he wants to run away from the co -- do -- and he burst out crying, and he touched this man's heart, and he gave -- he ba -- he gave him the visas for five people.

Q: Wow.

A2: Which is unheard of. Wait. Then when we -- they brou -- we brought them all.

So yeah, first of all we had to collect money to send them tickets. And we brought them all, we find them an apartment, where to buy furniture [indecipherable] dishes, clothes, sink. The whole city wa -- col -- was sending. We -- we -- it was in the papers, of course, we put -- the whole story was in the paper, and everybody 105 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 brought something. We di-- made the furniture. And Moshe gave him position, he became a cantor in Johannesburg.

Q: Wow.

A2: He was there for years. When we left in "70, South Africa, he was still cantor there. So this is a story.

Q: You sa -- you saved his life, his family, fantastic.

A2: Five -- five people, five people saved. This is one story.

A: It's not the only one.

A2: Yeah, the other -- yeah --

A: There is a doctor what I saved -- A2: -- this -- I'm going to tell the other story. This also ve -- a very interesting story, the other story. I didn't mention you -- to you that in -- in the building, you see there next to the shul, there's a building, yeah? On the left is the big, famous shul, but on the right, this is the Jewish community. And there is the only place where you can eat kosher, because they have a kitchen [indecipherable] kitchen. The food, I mean, mostly potatoes that time, there was much -- not much to eat. But this is the only place we ate. When we went there for our meals, nobody will talk to us, because they saw -- everybody was suspicious, thought we are spies, they don't us, why should they talk to us? And even there, people didn't talk anything personal,

106 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 because they were afraid of the shadow, that atmosphere then, unbelievable frightening. And -- and also, by the way, when we went to -- to the -- Singer's home, he took us to his home, they were all sitting with coats, because they didn't even have heating. This was in -- in -- in January, in winter, yeah. Terrible, terrible condition. [indecipherable] was -- so okay, so one day, in the hote -- in the restaurant, we met those two brothers in the restaurant over in shul where? Don't remember where we met those two brothers.

A: I went to visit him.

A2: No, but where did we meet the first -- we didn't know -- whe-where did we meet the first time? In shul, or in restaurant?

A: No, I got to know that they are there, and I went to visit them.

A2: You -- who ar -- did -- oh, he told you, Singer told you.

A: Mr. Singer -- A2: Yeah, all right. Singer told you know, you know there are two men from the same city.

A: We went to together in chayder.

A2: Chayder, right. Two brothers from the city, from -- from [indecipherable]

A: One was the -- and one was the Minister of Health, and one was the head of the NKVD.

107 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: No, no.

A: You know what the NKVD is?

Q: Oh yeah, oh yeah, that's a -- A2: No, no.

Q: -- precursor to the KGB, okay.

A2: Yeah, right. So --

A: Aye, aye, aye, aye.

A2: Yeah, so one day when you were in the restaurant, when you left the restaurant, they were waiting for, the two brother, and they walked with us. The only place where people would talk to us when we were in the street.

Q: Yeah.

A2: So all the Jews that didn't talk to us in the restaurant, whenever we left, one or two stuck to us and -- and he s -- used to [indecipherable] out and tell us stories from his life; what they suffer and how they want to get out, but of course they couldn't get out that time. And the same thing, those two brothers waited outside and we -- they walked us to the hotel, and on the way to the hotel, they told us their life story. What was their life story? They both survived somehow -- they was also in a concentration camp. And after -- after the war, they thought communism is of course the solution for everybody. You know, brotherhood, even -- 108 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A2:--many people believed -- or at least they -- they -- it [speaks foreign language] So one became a high -- a policeman. He was hiding.

A: NKVD, the head of the NKVD.

A2: Okay. And the other one is Minister of Health.

A: The Minister of Health.

A2: Yeah, okay, yeah. But on the street when they talked to us, they told us that it's all a lie. They did it because they have to survive. They want to leave, they want to run away, they don't know how. [indecipherable]

A: Oh, Rivka, you tell the story so wrong, unbelievable.

A2: So tell it, take it. Ta -- go ahead.

Q: Go ahead, go ahead.

A2: Go ahead, go ahead.

A: So wh-why do you -- why do bring up a story which you don't know to tell?

Q: Okay, so tell, tell.

A2: Ca---bu-but short, short. Come on.

A: I'm sitting by the doctor in the home, and they speak about Brezhnev, and they speak about communism.

109 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: I'm sorry Moshe, | have to interrupt. You do -- you -- you mix with the story where the wife was from South Africa. That's another story.

A: But -- what?

A2: His wife was from South Africa, where you sitting in the home of the doctor.

His wife was from South afri-- from South Africa. That's ano --

A: Yeah.

A2: That's another story. I'm talking about the two brothers. That's another story.

I'm coming to it. Sorry, Moshe. That's a --

A: Which two brothers?

A2: From your city, the two brothers from your city --

A: [indecipherable] One of the brothers had arrived from South Africa.

A2: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Sorry Moshe, sorry. Sorry.

Q: Okay, so that's -- A2: That's another story. Okay, the other story is -- yeah, the other story -- that's another story. When we lived in South Africa, I remember reading in the news that there was a woman that says the government chased her out because she claimed she bel -- communism something they chased her out, and we didn't know where she went, we didn't remember the story. When we came to Prague, I don't know, somehow we heard this woman lives in Prague and she is married, with -- and the

110 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 husband is a doctor and she has children, and they live in Prague. So I don't remember how we got in touch with them, how we met, and they invited us to their home, and this is where the story -- they told us they're so happy -- come on, if you want to tell the story, take it over. They believed that communism is -- is -- is -- is the solution, and she's dreamt all his life, da-da-da, and he's a doctor there, and a wonderful happy life, da-da-da, wonderful.

A: He's the minister there.

A2: Yeah, okay.

Q: Okay.

A2: He's a doctor, medical doctor. And then the same story --

Q: And then?

A2: What -- when we left, he tells us come, I'll walk with you to the hotel. And on the way to the hotel, you tell, because he told you the story. This is what he told you, the whole thing is a lie -- tell them, tell them.

A: He told me that, Moshe, I want you to know I want to leave the country. It is a -- I don't believe more in communism -- A2: Is the solution to --

A: --it is all a lie, and it is all nothing, bluff. But my wife is such a communist -- A2: [indecipherable] communist.

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus m November 30, 2014

A: -- that I'm afraid for her. I wi-- if I will tell her I want to leave, she will go and tell us -- th-the government, because she's hundred percent for communism.

Q: Wow.

A: But what can I do? I'm not -- got nothing to do. So I said goodnight, and the next day I went for a walk, and somehow I met her. I don't know if she was waiting -- A2: No, you went to see her Moshe. You couldn't sleep the whole night, and you decided the next day got -- you called her and you went to see her.

A: No, no, no, I went for a walk -- A2: Okay, okay.

Q: They -- you met, you met.

A: And I--I think she was waiting for me, and she said to me the same story.

Q: Wow, bet that [indecipherable]

A: I want to leave this country, I hate the communists, it is lie, it is not true. But my man and my husband is such a communist, he will go to the -- A2: He will report me.

A: --to the government and will tell them the truth and they will kill me, and -- and I told her, your husband told me the same thing yesterday.

Q: Wow, wow, wow.

112 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: She can't believe it. So when are you home, when is your husband home? It was in this time, I don't know, three o'clock, or four o'clock afternoon. So I went there, and we couldn't speak inside, because we knew [indecipherable] microphones.

Q: Sure.

A: So we took her out, and, idiots, you are both afraid of each other, and you both want the same thing, and you want me to save you. Okay, I will try to do what I can, but don't hide from yourself, because you think the same, and believe in each other. Okay. So then I came to London. Also not straightaway, but I came to -- around to the concerts I worked, made concerts. After I came to London, I went into Jacobowitz and told him to the chief rabbi, to si-- to save a family. So story, y- you said a story, they -- they -- they -- they -- they wanted to -- I ve --I gave them a position in London.

A2: No, no, no.

Q: Okay, that's it. I understand. I understand.

A2: No, no, no, it's important.

A: I gave him a position in London.

A2: No, not in London

Q: That [indecipherable] A2: [indecipherable] lived. This -- ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton

Interview with Moshe Kraus ns November 30, 2014

A: And he came to London --

A2: -- this is Singer, Moshe, so, Singer --

A: Yeah, bu-but he --

A2: So-Sorry Moshe, sorry. This --

A: He wa -- he was in Switzerland afar -- afar I --

A2: This is what I'm going to tell them, it's important how we took him out.

Q: Yeah.

A2: Yeah, okay. He -- he -- he -- he told the doctor, when is the next doc -- doctor's convention? He said, I don't know in few months in -- in -- in Switzerland.

A: No, he followed me from Switzerland.

A2: Wait -- no.

A: That he's in a convention.

A2: No, you told him. Moshe, please, I remember that, sorry, Moshe. He said [indecipherable] so anyhow, he went to the convention and he -- he told his wife to go and ask, since her husband is in Switzerland, she want to take the children for a holiday together. And this is how she left with the children, also left everything behind in Switzerland. And then Moshe [indecipherable] Switzerland that came to London. And from London there was arranged, they made him -- he became the main doctor in another city, don't tell me which city. Not London. They still ra -- Interview with Moshe Kraus m November 30, 2014

any -- anyhow, he got a position as a doctor, this is how they was saved. So he saved another family.

Q: Wow.

A: No, from London I took him to South Africa.

Q: That was Mr. Singer --

A2: No. Singer.

Q: -- and his family.

A2: You -- Singer is Africa. They remained -- he remained a doctor in --

A: [indecipherable] doctor, no, he went to Leeds. He went to Leeds, became --

A2: Leeds, ah Leeds, ah Leeds, yeah, yeah, became the -- the --

A: He became the chief doctor in -- in -- in -- in Leeds.

A2: Chief of the -- the hospital. Yeah, right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A: Yeah.

A2: And there is an end to this story, there is a end. I don't know how long law -- maybe a -- m-months later, in Johannesburg, you were sup -- it was making a--a wedding chuppah, and when we came to the st -- to the reception, and how was it?

No, in the hall, where you were singing, in a ha -- we hear somebody fainted. So he made a joke, I'm so used to people faint when they hear me sing. This was the standard one of his jokes. Anyhow, it stopped, and everybody, you know. And then 115 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 the woman said, you know who this man is? This is Cantor Kraus. He saves my daughter's life. She was the mother of this woman who -- that -- he save my daughter's life, you know, I want you to know. She was started screaming, she was hysterical.

Q: Wow.

A2: Yeah.

Q: Wow, nice.

A: Was in a wedding.

A2: Yeah, in a wedding. I think it's a nice story, also unusual story, no?

Q: Yeah, a beautiful story. It's fantastic.

A2: Yeah, so -- so this is the --

Q: Okay, so you traveled this big trip in -- in-- in -- throughout eastern Europe, you ended up in London, and you made -- made re -- all these wonderful arrangements for these families to get out of the former Czechoslovakia.

A2: Yeah.

Q: Let's get back to your lives, and back to -- A2: Johannesburg?

Q: Back to Johannesburg. So now it's already -- A2: Yeah.

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion

Interview with Moshe Kraus mn November 30, 2014

Q: -- mid-60s, you stayed there til 1970.

A2: Yeah. In Johannesburg, of course, we traveled all over, but -- all the cities there --

Q: Okay.

A2: -- but I don't have to mention Port Elizabeth is London [indecipherable] city

Q: Yeah.

A2: What was special in Johannesburg --

Q: And then what -- then in 1970, what happened? You [indecipherable]

A2: Once again, I'm just thinking little stories. Yeah, this is fun, little stories in jo -- in Johannesburg. Once -- they had a custom; every Sunday -- every Sunday in the -- this -- call it a cities next to the -- to the mines, you know. Johannesburg, the whole city's on mines, yeah, in around -- surrounding. So every mine, Sunday they -- the people are awake and they used to make -- dance, their -- their tribe dancing, and tourists used to come and see it. So one couple I remember, the Horowitz, [indecipherable] when you first arrived, they took us there to see the dancing, because this is [indecipherable] of South Africa. And we came there -- they lost the way, because they -- they've never been there. So we stopped one black man and -- but we don't know, they didn't speak English. These people speak their tongue.

Interview with Moshe Kraus m7 November 30, 2014

Q: Mm-hm.

A2: And we didn't know of course --

A: Zulu. They speak Zulu.

A2: I don't know, one speaks Zulu --

A: Suit -- Sutu and Zulu.

Q: Okay

A2: N-- Many languages, but we didn't know the language, and we -- I would ask them, where is this -- this -- no -- so we couldn't work it, so [indecipherable] so he went out, went out of the to -- and he starts dancing like ahhh, it's dance. I mean it's -- it's a stupid story, but something.

Q: You mentioned the name Horowitz, was he a -- a judge?

A2: No.

Q: Okay. There was a Judge Horowitz that my father knew in South Africa --

A2: No, the judge -- we have a si-- we have a jury --

Q: [indecipherable] Horowitz.

A2: No, not Horowitz.

Q: -- was a judge.

A2: We have aj -- we judge --

Q: A different one --

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion

Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

A2: Your friend, what is th -- the guy that -- judge? Forgot --

A: Cooper.

A2: Huh?

A: Cooper.

A2: Cooper. Judge Cooper. Also -- or maybe it's an interesting

A: And you're not ashamed, you're 10 years younger than me --

A2: Yeah, the -- yeah, anyhow --

A: --and you don't remember.

A2: Okay. I don't ri -- I think it's a -- it's an interesting to tell, this Judge Cooper, one Friday night somebody came to the house and through the window shot and killed him. Apparently it must have had to do with his something in a -- and he was in a coma for -- for I don't know how long. So the family tried to revive him, you know, ti -- you know, to -- telling stories. Nothing helped. One day he said -- the [indecipherable] said, you know -- and this judge was a--a good Jew. He came every Shabbat to shul. He was one of those Jew, you know, not [indecipherable]

A: He was a -- he was Orthodox Jew.

A2: Yeah, Orthodox Jew. So -- and he was a great hoset(ph) of Moshe, he loved Moshe. So the children came and asked him, maybe you come and sing something Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

from shul, you know, f-- when he was in a coma. And you came, and you sang something, and he opened his eyes, right?

A: He don't know.

A2: He recognized --

A: Moshele(ph), you are here.

A2: Yeah.

A: And that's the only time he spoke to them --

A2: It's only few words.

A: -- and half an hour later he was dead.

A2: Yeah, after he left he closed the eyes, and he died. I mean, this is unusual story, no? It's -- it's a la-- I remember Judge Cooper, yeah. I'm sure there are a lot of --

A: No, no, I had [indecipherable] I had it many times. I had -- came to people who they had coma in -- they did -- didn't recognize the wife, they didn't recognize the children, immediately recognize --

A2: Babies. Babies, babies recognize you.

A: Babies, oh yeah, yeah.

A2: The children didn't recognize [indecipherable] oh chazzan.

A: [have a friend who was living here --

A2: Yeah.

120 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: And then he went over to Montreal, and he became in a coma, and I came to visit him.

A2: Yeah.

A: And I came in, Moshele(ph), how are you?

A2: Same story.

A: She used to call always all the children and grandchildren when I came, because when I came, he came back to himself. Unbelievable what singing can do. The doctor says that by singing that can happen, yeah. Coma, that they -- they don't recognize the wife, or the children -- A2: Yeah, okay.

A: -- they immediately recognize.

A2: What else?

A: And here I also -- one of the cantors was in a coma, and the wife was sitting and crying, he don't recognize me.

A2: Okay, yeah.

A: And I come in, oh Moshele(ph). He she -- him, he recognizes him, he doesn't recognize.

A2: Yeah. Then from South Africa we went to Mexico.

121 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

Q: So, you were in -- so the Mexican Jewish community invited you -- how did this happen? You left shi -- you left Johannesburg, you moved to Mexico City, 1970?

A2: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, let me te -- yeah, I forgot. Actually --

Q: I don't -- A2: -- it's -- in 1967, when the Six Day War happened, we start --

Q: Thank you.

A2: -- yeah -- we start -- we -- we felt uncomfortable. We were young then, and here the Six Day War, with Israelis, what are we doing in South Africa? We started talking about going to Israel, but when we came in s -- in 58, when we came, they gave Moshe a life contract. So how can you -- you can't break a life contract. So it took us three years, three years negotiating with the [indecipherable], and Moshe claimed look, you a-- you are famo -- very famous Zionist, south African Jew was -- was -- in -- in -- they gave a lot of money to Israel zion -- people of Israel, and I want to go to Israel and -- and you won't let me? So it took us three years negotiating and in se -- in 1970 they -- they gave us the permission to leave, although we had a five -- a life contract. We left to Israel and we settled in Tel Aviv, and -- and then what was in Tel Aviv? He was -- he was the cantor. He was just a f--a freelancer, and they used to take him a lot for the army for Miluim because he was -- when he left the -- the army he was what, second -- seg -- you were Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

second, right, second? Yeah, second. So they took him to Miluim, and [indecipherable] Miluim, they took him to sing for the soldiers [indecipherable] gave concert while we were in Israel, to sing for them kem -- one story I think you can tell, the Friday night -- you tell the story -- he told us the story at -- at -- Rabbi Shariashuf(ph) told us the story, because --

Q: [indecipherable]

A2: No, Rabbi Shariashuf(ph) was the chief cantor of the air force, and he -- and he ta -- he -- they -- he went to talk and he went to sing, they went together. So once -- usually they sang during the week, but once -- tell her the story of Friday night when you were supposed to sing, what happened? You remember, or not? So tell, but short. All right now, tell it, okay

Q: Tell -- tell -- tell -- no, okay, I want to hear from -- I would like to hear it from you.

A2: Yeah, she wants to hear it from you. Moshe, don't play games. We have no time to play games.

Q: Please?

A2: Please.

A: You tell the story.

A2: I won't -- I wasn't --

Interview with Moshe Kraus ms November 30, 2014

Q: No, I want to hear it -- I want to hear --

A: You begin the story.

A2: I wasn't there. I wasn't there. You were.

A: Fine, well, what happened there?

A2: When you started singing, everybody boo, boo, they were upset because usually Friday night they used to send them home to see the families. And here they kept them here to hear a chazzan. They were not interested. I mean, the young people what -- you know, they started to boo, boo, boo --

A: Yeah, I know. There was -- it was he was there, th-the famous anti-Semite, wa- was the editor of a paper --

A2: Yeah, yeah, from Ollamazay(ph), from Ollamazay(ph), yeah. He -- you know who was from the Ollamazay(ph), the editor, what was his name? Doesn't matter.

Anyhow, so --

A: A name, a name, a name, you don't remember a name.

A2: Doesn't matter now Moshe. Anyhow, so Moshe was standing there, and -- and he didn't know what to do. They si-- told me -- the rabbi told about this story because [indecipherable]. And he said, what can I lose, and he started very softly to sing Hayom Shabbat Kodesh, a yo -- [indecipherable] the song. [sings] "Hayom Shabbat kodesh." These three words.

Interview with Moshe Kraus m November 30, 2014

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah, sing for us a little bit.

A2: Yeah, do it.

Q: Sing it for -- sing it, sing it.

A2: [sings] "Hayom Shabbat ko" -- s-soft. One man heard him and he said, sh. To make the story short, it became quiet, and he sang it loud, and everybody sang with him. For hours, the hall, everybody sang this -- this little song.

A: Five hundred soldiers.

A2: Yeah.

A: Five hundred soldiers.

A2: And -- and -- and then --

Q: How does it go? How does it go?

A: [sings] "Hayom Shabbat kodesh, hayom Shabbat kodesh. Hayom yom yo, hayom yom yo, hayom Shabbat kodesh. Hayom, yom yom, hayom, yom yom.

Hayom Shabbat kodesh."

A2: That's it, that's the whole song.

A: [sings] "Hayom --

A2: But it's catchy.

Q: Yeah.

Interview with Moshe Kraus es November 30, 2014

A: -- Shabbat kodesh. Hayom --

A2: Yeah, again.

A: -- Shabbat kodesh." Twelve o'clock we walked home, all the 500 soldiers -- A2: In -- into --

A: -- because in Israel was [indecipherable] and always all the -- remained in the ga -- in the barrack, everybody walked home. You know what it means 500 soldiers A2: Singing.

A: -- walked in Rothschild Street.

A2: Yeah, the Rothschild.

A: The Rothschild Street, singing Hayom yo Shabbos kodesh? All the windows opened, and all everybody listened, and they -- and they [indecipherable] bravo.

Q: Wow.

A2: Lit-Little events, yeah.

A: Well, what -- what -- what has it -- what has this to do with -- with --

A2: [indecipherable] was your life. This happened to you. I'm --I only took --I only want stories about you.

A: Okay, okay --

A2: Yeah.

Interview with Moshe Kraus mdeg November 30, 2014

A: -- go on, go on, go on.

A2: What else, what else?

A: And don't ask me to finish.

A2: Yeah, what else, I'm just thinking what else. Yeah, so -- so -- in Israel we lived for a y -- over a year, and once, in --

A: I finish you the story with Medalia(ph), all second, with Medalia I finish the story because I don't remember if I finished, and th-the-the -- then I came later, when I left for Israel -- for Germany. Later when I was already South Africa cantor, I arrived to Israel and I call me a taxi to the hotel, and I buy always there first thing a paper. I buy the Marif(ph) and I see on the last page, that is a tombstone, they -- they -- they put up a tombstone for Dr. Stark(ph), he was my rabbi in Bucharest, and they put up a stone tombstone. At 11 o'clock they go to -- to celebrate the putting up the stone. I said to Rivka, I must go and see this. I must go honor him, my rabbi. I'd like to very much. So I stopped the car, and you go, I take another taxi. He went to the grim -- cemetery. And really I arrived some 15 - 20 minutes before 11, and all of a -- and tha -- but there was a lot of [indecipherable] Jews from Bucharest, Moshele(ph), Moshele(ph), Moshele(ph). And all of a sudden I see somebody pushes a -- a-- a wagon, and there is sitting a man, doesn't ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Moshe Kraus m7 November 30, 2014 know what is going on. And they say to me Moshe, you know who it is? No.

Misha(ph) Leyba(ph).

Q: Oh wow.

A: The president.

Q: [indecipherable]

A: I went up to him. Misha(ph), you remember me? No. Moshele(ph) Kraus. Oh, Moshele(ph), I was sorry -- because he thought to be that I will be sorry. And I so -- and I said to him, no -- A2: Do you know the connection?

A:--TIT hope you will not be sorry. You know, the first word of what he said to me was, Moshele(ph), I was sorry. He was six years in jail, his [indecipherable] paid hundred thousand dollars to free him, and he came out sick -- A2: Broken.

A: -- and broken, and he waited to die.

A2: Yeah. Okay, so --

A: [indecipherable] you remember me [indecipherable] you say to me that you are related to him?

Q: Yes.

A: 1di--Ican't tell you, you are -- you are by me, messiah.

Interview with Moshe Kraus vs November 30, 2014

A2: So what's got to do the story with Medalia(ph)? What's the connection with Medalia(ph)?

Q: Well, we were talking, he mentioned the name Medalia(ph) before, and Moshe's mother's --

A2: Ah, da -- da -- okay. Yeah, but -- yeah, but this -- Medalia(ph) has nothing to do with this story.

A: Sure.

A2: Why?

A: Medalia(ph) was the man who told me to leave Bucharest. He was officer.

A2: No. Ah, an officer called Medalia(ph)? I thought you talk about the Rabbi Medalia(ph).

A: He was Rabbi Medalia(ph), he was son of the chief rabbi --

A2: Yeah, but he was in buchar --

A: --and then he became rabbi in Leeds, and then he became rabbi in [indecipherable]

A2: But he was in Bucharest, he was -- we met him in Manchester, he -- no -- okay [indecipherable]

A: He make him -- they ma-make him in Leeds again.

A2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, surely, okay. So --

Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

A: Why -- why [indecipherable]

A2: -- okay, okay. [indecipherable] Now --

A: No, no, [t--I tell a story, [-- I made up a story.

A2: No, you didn't make a story, but you mixed the name.

A: I didn't miss the name.

A2: Rabbi Medalia(ph) wasn't in --

A: Medalia(ph) was the son of a to -- the chief rabbi from [indecipherable]

A2: Right.

A: -- Poltava(ph) --

A2: Right.

A: -- and he was then an officer, and then he came to England, and he became rabbi in Leeds.

A2: You're right.

A: And we met him in Leeds --

A2: Right, but he was in bucha --

A: -- and I made him for rabbi [indecipherable] in Ottawa.

A2: But he was in Bucharest is what I'm saying.

Q: Did you ever -- did you ever --

A: He was in Bucharest in the army.

Interview with Moshe Kraus me November 30, 2014

Q: [indecipherable] during the war

A2: Okay, okay.

Q: Right after the war, right after the war.

A: Fifteen years before, he was in the army.

A2: Ah, okay, okay, sorry, sorry, yeah.

Q: Did you ever hear from him, or know that any of his family ended up in Australia? Because his Medalia(ph) family was in Australia. Yeah. That's how I know the story [indecipherable]

A: He was the chief rabbi in Leeds, and I made him the chief rabbi [indecipherable]. I wasn't there more, I left in meantime, and I don't know what happened all of a sudden. He was a young man, he was 60 --

A2: No, no.

A: -65-

A2: Anyhow, he married -- he married in Antwerp.

A: -- he -- he -- he -- he looked an -- a strong man, and -- and then he died.

A2: He married in Antwerp and he had children. I don't know afterwards whether they left Australia or not, I don't know.

Q: Okay, that's what I was asking.

A2: Yeah, yeah.

Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: I liked him very much.

A2: Okay, while we were in Israel, in the -- in the [indecipherable] one year, they made the biggest karah(ph) for the kiddushin who -- yeah. And he made the ascarah(ph). And one couple was there from Mexico, and they heard it, and al -- and they right away came to him and said, we're looking for a chazzan, would you consider? So he said, I --I don't go -- I never go for [indecipherable]

Q: No auditions.

A2: Yeah, it's a--

Q: No audition.

A2: If you want me, call me for a consult, I'll come for a consult and then you'll hear me or see me and then we negotiate. So this what happened. He went -- now -- and -- sorry -- sorry, he went but he went by himself. I -- the first time he went by himself for the high festival. So, just for the hagim, and he came back, and then he went for the second hagim. This was "70 you went, "71. Seventy-three we were -- we went together, "73, if you remember was the Yom Kippur War.

Q: Uh-huh.

A2: And we were in Mexico in [indecipherable]. And when the Yom Kippur broke out, the [indecipherable] came to him and he said, you know the situation, why are Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

you going back? Every si -- every concert was cancelled in Israel, it was [indecipherable] da-da-da-da. He said stay, we'll give you a [indecipherable]

A: [had a concert too for South America --

A2: Yeah.

A: -- and everything was cancelled.

A2: Cancelled. Anyhow, so the ka -- gave us a contract, we stayed -- we stayed there til "76, in Mexico.

Q: So from "73 to "76?

A2: Yeah, yeah. Four years. In this three years -- in this four years, we toured up and down the whole of the continent Central and South America concert. Few times we -- we do that. What else?

A: I was very popular.

A2: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

A: I don't know. Til today. They bother me til today. |--1--1-TI only finished an -- an -- an appearance in -- in -- in-- in Manhattan, in the -- in the Holocaust building, they built a holocau -- new Holocaust -- oh, what a buil -- what a building, what a building.

A2: Yeah. Okay, in Mexico --

A: Nine hundred people on the concert.

Interview with Moshe Kraus es November 30, 2014

A2:--in me -- yeah, in Mexico Moshe was one night in jail.

A: What?

A2: You were in jail one night.

A: Yeah.

A2: I'm telling the story.

A: Yeah.

A2: Okay, the -- you want to tell the story?

A: Yeah, what story? I had an accident.

A2: This -- okay, I'll tell the story.

A: Yeah, an -- an officer went in in my car.

A2: Okay, let me tell the story.

Q: And -- and -- no, and?

A: A-A-And I -- they -- an officer was god in -- in -- in Me-Mexico. I had nothing to say. Straightaway jail.

A2: Now let me explain, Moshe.

A: And then came a millionaire.

A2: Now Moshe, please let me explain it, it's -- it's a pity [indecipherable]. In Mexico was a law, if there's an accident, whate -- before anything, the two people have to go to jail, and then they clean out who, what, when. This is the law, yeah?

134 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 So it's important because when -- and why did we have the accident? The man w- was a--- later we found out he was an officer, he was drunk, and he w-went into ours in the back. Nothing happened to us, because -- but he was bloody, because he -- you know, he bang. So they took them to -- both to jail, and this was [indecipherable] Pesach, I remember. Why I remember? Because we were on the way -- way to Cuernavaca, he was supposed to give a concert, why in Cuernavaca? It's a la--I have to explain it. Is a city an hour and 15 minutes away from Mexico, and there is one weather the whole year. The whole year, spring. Nobody knows why, but because it's spring there, and Mexico City is --is 800 feet up, so the Jewish ho -- old age home is in Cuernavaca.

Q: Oh, because of the climate.

A2: So this is -- yeah, so he wa -- went to give a concert in the Jewish for -- for Pesach [indecipherable]. And this is what happened. So they took -- yeah, so when this happened, we're standing. We didn't run away, of course. And all the cars that passed by, that saw us standing, said run, run, because they knew they" ll take us to j -- to jail. Doesn't matter who -- who -- who is at fault, yeah.

Q: Who's at fault, yeah, right.

A2: So Moshe said, I can't run away, I'll stay. Just only you go home. Because why should we both, you know? And he was the driver anyhow. So I--I went home. I ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Moshe Kraus ws November 30, 2014 don't remember how I got home, because he stayed with the car. And they took him to jail. So, you" ll tell what happened in jail, but I'll tell you what happened in Mexico. I went -- I came home -- we have -- we have friends, as it happens, these very, very, very rich people, very. And I told them the story, they took Moshe to jail. What -- what to do? I told them when it happened, told them where. So he said, leave it to me. He starts calling around. What happened, he could -- they couldn't find him. They didn't know which jail he is. Why? Because -- because the man, the injured man was an officer, they didn't take him to -- they took him to a -- a hospital, an army office -- in the ar -- in the army, yeah? So that people couldn't find him, they didn't know. They checked all the civil hospitals, no, couldn't find him. And they couldn't find him, they can't do anything. So later Moshe told me that he was in jail, sitting in a chair. It -- they didn't even --

A: Not just sitting in a chair, I walked around all the night -- A2: The whole night, yeah.

A: --in the yard, I wouldn't sit there.

A2: Yeah, yeah. They --

A: Such a dirt, such a spoo -- A2: Yeah.

A: And this -- Mexico is dirty anyway.

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Moshe Kraus 8deg November 30, 2014 A2: Yeah, but --

A: And in -- in -- in the jail --

Q: [indecipherable] A2: Imagine -- yeah, ca --

A: -- you can imagine. I looked the people who were sitting there -- A2: Yeah, yeah.

A: --I wouldn't sit with them.

A2: And it was Pesach, cause he wouldn't eat anything.

A: All the night walking around.

A2: Yeah. Not drinking a f-- glass of water, no for food [indecipherable] yeah.

Okay, so this is -- so what this friend of ours, what happened, yeah, it's interesting, interesting how he found out. Moshe had another friend, he was the eye doctor.

Remember the eye doctor that treated you? And he -- this eye doctor treated in the army old officers, in the eye. Somehow he heard a story, I don't know how, and he find out that -- that this man is in jail in a hospital, a military hospital. And this is how we found him. Once we found him, Alfred t-t -- he took --

A: No, the brothers came, the two brothers -- A2: Ca -- yeah, this was -- I'm going to tell. They took a suitcase --

A: And they -- and they paid a lot of money -- ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Moshe Kraus aa November 30, 2014 A2: -- 10,000 dollar --

A: -- and they let me go.

A2: No, 10,000 dollar put in a suitcase.

A: Yeah. They let me go, and that's all.

A2: And they gaved the police -- the police -- not [indecipherable] in Mexico.

Q: Yeah.

A2: They gave the police, and this is how they let him go.

Q: Wow. Okay --

A: And I came home in the evening, and he came to visit me. He died after this.

A2: I don't know.

A: He was -- they were gre -- great friends to us. He had a mother also, and she wa -- she really liked me. You don't remember?

A2: No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember. Yeah, yeah, I remember. He died, yeah, yeah, and we met him in New York later. Yeah, yeah. The name? Oh -- yeah --

A: [indecipherable] comes to a name, yeah.

Q: [indecipherable] A2: I remember -- J remember a beautiful woman, I remember she was beautiful woman.

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Moshe Kraus es November 30, 2014

A: Yeah, comes to a name, yeah.

A2: Okay, that's the [indecipherable]

A: And she got married again.

A2: Yeah, I know, yeah, yeah.

A: Very rich.

A2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. This is this. But what I wanted to tell, two things.

Yeah --

A: Two things.

A2: Right. We were in Mexico --

A: But then also -- A2: And one day --

A: -- the first in one thing, and after this we'll take the second thing, yeah.

A2: No. We finished -- yeah, don't -- not let waste time. We just finish the story and we finished. We had -- we -- we -- we got a telegram one day from south af-- from Johannesburg. The telegram was, this was in 1973. And this was three years after we lof-- left Johannesburg, yeah, "73 -- "70 -- left "73. So the telegram is like this -- so we still have the telegram. The telegram said so-something like this.

A: [indecipherable] Rivka, there is involved a lot of cantor, I don't want.

Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A2: I won't mention the name. No, I'm not telling the story with this. The telegram says, he-heard you're in trouble, heard you're in jail. Ready to help, money's no object. Signed, Rabbi Bernard is rabbi, and the name of the committee, of the committee. [indecipherable] Horowitz [indecipherable]

Q: Wow, how news travels, hey?

A2: Wow. No -- no, first of all, the news traveled, three years after we left them, and Moshe actually broke the contract, and they still want to help. They heard he's in trouble --

A: I didn't break the contract, th-they gave me permission.

A2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but -- yeah, but I mean -- they know what I mean. And

A: They were not happy about it --

A2: Yeah, but -- yeah.

A: -- but they understood everybody ran away from Mandela. They didn't know that --

A2: No, before Mandela came.

A: -- [indecipherable] he was [indecipherable]

A2: So -- yeah, so -- so, the telegram, we were stunned. First of all that they remember, they want to help, money no object. And then said what trouble? They bin -- did mention jail, so it just said big trouble, something like this, right? What http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus "0 November 30, 2014 trouble? And I asked Moshe, tell me the truth, because Moshe [indecipherable] he never liked to tell me bad news. He used to tell me bad news much later. Can you imagine when my mother passed away in Israel and he didn't tell me. He got a phone call, and he didn't tell me. What -- can you imagine? An-Anyhow, so ""d--I said, Moshe, look, this is the time, no secrets. Tell me what -- when -- do you know something happened to my family, your family? Nothing. I -- I do --I don't know anything that happened -- what happen -- to make the story short, you were -- said, you know what? Let's call the rabbi and find out what -- what happened. But to call it's not easy. It's seven hours different. When we want to call it's night there, an- and he's a very busy man. I think he's tried three time til we got him, too. When we got him, what happened? So -- yeah, first thing Moshe calls, he said, Moshe, where are you? You're not in jail? Where you calling from? He said home. You're not in jail? No, what jail? So I heard y-yo -- I heard you -- what is, you were smuggle something? I don't know. Anyhow, he's caught something -- doing something wrong, I don't know what that is.

A: The cantor told him.

A2: Wait a second, you don't want to mention the cantor, you said.

A: No, but [indecipherable] the cantor I can say.

A2: No.

141 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

Q: Yeah, without a name, without a name.

A: Yeah.

A2: So yeah. So, yeah --

Q: We won't let A2: Anyhow, to make the story short, we cleared --

A: It's a very famous cantor, he took my position.

Q: Okay.

A2: Yeah.

A: And he wasn't too happy there, because they told him, this is not Moshe Kraus.

A2: He told -- he told us later, later [indecipherable]

A: He apologized, he c -- A2: Yeah.

A: --he cried when he apologized.

A2: He told us later, each time he said something special, and people said, it was very good, but it wasn't what Moshe Kraus did [indecipherable]. Anyhow, so he was jealous.

Q: Hi-a hard act to follow.

142 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: Yeah. so he -- he -- the -- when we came later, in "83, we came the first time -- no, in-- we -- no, in "74 we came to Johannesburg for a concert back. Then we went from person to person, who did you hear this story --

A: We became gr-great friends. We became great friends.

A2: Who did you hear the story from, who did you hear the story. And they said -- the end came to this cantor that he made the rumor that he was a -- he made it because he was so jealous, he was so --

A: Jealous, jealousy.

A2: It ate him up, yeah. So this is a story, bu -- but why I tell you, because the big compliment is not the story, that the congregation, after three years --

A: The nice thing is on the story, the nice thing is -- A2: Th-They remember.

A: -- that the congregation -- A2: This is what I'm saying --

A: -- after 10 years -- A2: Three year.

A: -- that they -- after?

A2: Three. Three.

A: Three years.

Interview with Moshe Kraus "s November 30, 2014

A2: Yeah.

A: After three years, they heard about it --

A2: They want to help.

A: -- an-and -- an-and-and -- and then they was ready to pay every money to free me.

A2: Yeah, this is a big compliment, I mean --

Q: Very nice.

A2: -- nobody can ta -- not -- not any people can --

A: No, they liked me, every -- every position they like --

A2: Yeah, okay, what else was in Mexico --

A: -- they loved me.

A2: -- just trying to think.

A: He -- the only position who didn't love me is the here, the position here. When I left they were very upset I left. Because since I left, this synagogue going down, you know, they close it, they gu -- they folded.

Q: Oh my.

A: Yeah. This is the first Shabbas there was no minyan.

Q: Wow.

A: They closed it.

A2: Yeah, what else can we tell --

144 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: And they said to me -- A2: Okay.

A: --we are sorry we let you go.

A2: You know what, we'll take a break now, we'll have lunch, yeah? So what I ask you, if you can move there, because I want the table for lunch.

Q: Okay.

A2: And then you can tell whatever stories -- End of File One 145 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 Beginning File Two

A: When he gi-- when he became the chief rabbi of Lublin, in the first Shabbas he had to give at Russia --

Q: Yeah, sure.

A: --a speech. It's before he began with Russia he said, ladies and gentlemen, before I say to you -- Russia, I must make for you a promise. What is the promise?

The question is, the Talmud says [speaks Hebrew] Don't go in a place where great people are, because you will be lost. But what are you go in there? How came I to stay -- came I to stay in Lublin, after a Lublin rebel, and after the [indecipherable] also, one of the greatest Lubliner rebels. Who -- who can I come and stay on their place, when there is written in the Talmud, you shall not stay on the place [indecipherable] you speak bo -- Hebrew?

Q: Yes.

A: He says no, the translation is different. It doesn't mean you shall not come and take the position. It comes -- it comes to say as you shall not stay -- you shall not stay -- ah, how I became chief rabbi of Lublin, I don't need more. I don't have to work more. I don't have to study more. I'm the greatest, I have the greatest position in the world. Then Lublin was the number one position in the world. They tell you 146 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 [indecipherable] don't remain standing. Don't say no, no, no more. Be a choyloch(ph). Go up and up and up and up --

Q: Yeah, strive -- strive for better, strive for --

A: -- try to reach the -- the Lubliner rebel, try to reach the charif(ph). Try to reach them. I promise you I will be a choyloch(ph).

Q: Nice.

A: You know I can say to you the [indecipherable]

Q: That's very nice.

A: Fantastic.

A2: This is the [indecipherable] Shapiro story, right?

Q: Yes.

A2: Yeah. You have another story with the [indecipherable]

A: What?

A2: [indecipherable] is another story.

A: Yeah. He was a -- he was ol -- he was also a member in parliament, Shapiro.

Q2: Yep.

A: He was member in parla -- was chief rabbi of Lublin, and a member in the Yehuda Israel, and a member in the parliament.

Q2: [indecipherable] 147 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: Correct. So the parliament in Poland then -- A2: The Polish par --

A: --I don't know today, but then they had two places, were six months in one place, and six months in the other place. One place in Warsaw -- A2: Yeah.

A: -- and one place in Krakow. So when they were sitting in Krakew and he came to the meeting, and he stayed in the hotel. So he walks out from the parliament, comes up to him, you know, there was an -- you don't know this. In the old time, people walked around with beat -- big boxes, and it was [indecipherable] that it ha -- they had something, it was tied to that -- to their body, and it [indecipherable] and they kept things to sell. Oh, little things, but things what you need in a house. And hundreds of Jews used to walk around --

Q: Peddlers.

A: -- because it was their business, in selling all kinds of things for they could find there. Oh, he walked out from the parliament, and a seller comes up to him, Rabbi, can you buy something? And he said, I'm here a guest. I'm living in hotel, I don't need nothing. I got to eat, I got to drink, I got to sleep, a-and I got the papers in the hotel, so I-I don't need nothing. Rabbi, anything, socks, pair -- buy a pair of socks.

Socks always you need. And he says, socks? Socks I for sure don't need. What do 148 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 you mean you don't need socks? I'm in politic, and politic is [indecipherable] so what do I need socks? This is Shapiro.

Q: That's a good one.

A: Outstand -- he was an outstanding man. Outstanding man. Outstanding man. And I had this -- I had a honor to be blessed by him.

Q: Nice.

A: And he was crying when I sang sigi -- [indecipherable] he composed, and I sang it for him. I used to sing it on concerts. I was only cantor in the world who sang cantorial few -- four numbers, Yiddish four numbers, Hasidis(ph) four numbers, and Hebrew four numbers. So I was very reliable, and I --

Q: What Yiddish songs to you sing?

A: Pardon?

Q: Which Yiddish songs do you sing?

A2: Okay, lunch is ready. Lunch is ready.

A: The [indecipherable] [sings] from Secunda, famous aw --

Q: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.

A: [indecipherable]

Q: Yeah.

A: [sings in Yiddish] 149 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

Q: This is Kaezerginski. This is Kaczerginski.

A: Huh?

Q: That I sing also.

A: Oh, yeah.

Q: That's wer -- that was written by Shmerke kakot -- Kaczerginski.

A: Correct, correct, correct, correct. I used to sing it.

Q: I sing that too, I sing that often.

A: And they -- and they loved it, they loved it.

Q: Yeah, it's a good song.

End of File Two

ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton 150 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 Beginning File Three

Q: Tell me stories.

Q2: You ready?

A: No, but I don't want you to leave late. I don't want you to drive at night.

Q: That's okay.

A: No. I believe you have to leave two o'clock, you will arrive there day, in the daytime.

Q: At the home of -- no? At the home of Cantor and Mrs. Kraus, Ottawa, November 30", 2014. Works? At the home of Cantor and Mrs. Kraus, Ottawa, November 30", 2014. At the home -- Q2: No. Part three.

Q: Part three.

A: Mr. Ben Schak(ph) Q2: Yes, sir?

Q: Take some fruit.

Q2: Yes, I will. Thank you.

Q: Okay, so it's -- the year is 1973.

A: What is the story, what has to [indecipherable] me?

Q: So I would like you to tell me what happens after Mexico City.

ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Moshe Kraus st November 30, 2014

A: I don't know, but I sta -- t-told you a story, what was the story? And she stopped me, and I want to finish it.

Q: Oh, the earlier story. I'll tell you. I think I'm supposed to ask you what happened at the Plaza Hotel in New York.

A: Yeah.

A2: Mm-hm. This is the story with Vazner(ph), that he wanted to tell you about Vazner(ph).

A: Yeah, the story is -- A2: Vazner(ph) was the --

A: [arrived -- | arrived at the hotel, and he said to me, Moshe, you don't go by yourself in the -- where -- where the ra -- where the chazzan is sitting. I take you there.

A2: It's Vazner(ph), the father of [indecipherable]

A: No, he tell the -- it is my -- my honor to take you there. Well, very good. So he takes me there. And we go in in the elevator, and he tells me that Gur Aryeh(ph), something is not hundred percent with his mind. So much so, he didn't recognize him, and he gave him five million dollars. Can you imagine? He didn't recognize him. They told him, this is Mr. Vazner(ph), but he didn't know where he is. Okay.

And he's sitting upstairs with Ashkenazi. They made up. Okay. So I arrive, and the Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

--and the people who stay by the door, open the door for us to walk in. You know, I walk in, he jumps up, Gur Aryeh(ph), Moshe [speaks Yiddish]. This it was sing -- singing is -- singing people remember you.

A2: Vazner(ph) said, I gave him five million, and he doesn't remember me, he remembers you. Vazner(ph) said to you, right?

A: Yeah. And Vazner(ph) said to me, I gave him five million dollars, he don't remember me, and you he remembers. Yeah. Well, you should [indecipherable] A2: So, from Mexico we came to Ottawa. And we have got more stories from Mexico, I'm sure we have.

Q: Yeah, but let's -- let's try to finish everything, and then you can fill in the gaps, okay?

A2: Okay, so we came -- so we came to Ottawa.

Q: What year?

A2: In--in seven -- in "70. Yeah, "70. No, no, "72, sorry.

Q: No, you were not -- you were --

A2: Seventy --

Q: -- you were in Mexico City starting in "73.

A2: No. No, no, in "73, he became a chazzan. He remained because of the war --

Q: Right.

Interview with Moshe Kraus s November 30, 2014

A2: -- but he came to Mexico every year since --

A: Yeah, that's right.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A2:-- while we were living in Israel.

Q: Right, right, I know.

A2: Okay, so --

Q: But what year did you leave Mexico City?

A2: Seventy-six.

Q: Ah, that's it.

A2: Seventy-six we came here. How did we come here?

Q: Straight to -- and -- and right to Ottawa?

A2: Right to Ottawa, right. We came here because Moshe gave a concert in the army, and so people from Ottawa heard him, and they approached him. We looking for a chazzan, we want -- again, so I said, I'm not going for [indecipherable] I'm not [indecipherable] I come for a concert, you'll hear me, you'll see me. So this what happened. They arranged a concert, and -- and of course they gave him right away a contract, and we -- we here, all the time. But, he was chazzan in the big synagogue, Beth Shalom, from "76 til "80. He had a problem, Moshe had a problem with the shul. Was the first time in his history that he was in a shul with a 154 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 mi-- there was a microphone. Although they told him that -- which rabbi made the microphone, somebody from Toronto? A vers --

A: Eps -- Epstein.

A2: No, not Epstein.

A: What was his name?

A2: A very famous rabbi.

A: Feinstein(ph). Feinstein(ph).

A2: Feinstein(ph)? No. No, not Feinstein(ph).

A: Not Feinstein(ph)?

A2: No, no, not. Doesn't matter.

A: Yeah, Feinstein(ph), a very -- A2: Okay Moshe.

A: -- famous rabbi.

A2: Not Feinstein(ph), okay.

A: Epstein(ph)? Epstein(ph)?

A2: So--so--

A: Something like this, Feinstein(ph), Epstein(ph).

A2: Doesn't matter, let -- we lose time --

A: Feinstein(ph).

155 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: Please. Names are so important for you, it's not important to story so much.

Anyhow, we --

A: Epstein(ph).

A2: --in "80, Moshe started --

A: Not Epstein(ph)?

A2: Moshe started discussing with them, he wants a -- they should take out the microphone. And they didn't agree, so the -- to make the story short, Moshe left the position. And since then, all the time we're living here, he became a free --

A: Freelancer.

A2: -- freelancer. Freelancer. So since -- yeah, first of all, for pes --

A: If you need the English words, ask me.

A2: First of all, since "80, til three years ago -- since 1980 [indecipherable] ago, for 25 years, I went for Pesach, every Pesach, to Miami.

Q: Okay, so from 1980 until 20 --

A: To Bancovich(ph) A2: Yeah, to this --

A: What was the name of the hotel?

A2: Saxony.

A: Saxony.

156 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: Saxony Hotel.

Q: Oh.

A2: And why we stop, because we they sold this -- the hotel for -- they turned it into condominiums, so we left.

Q: So I'm sure you sang for my grandparents, because they used to go to the Saxony --

A: But not for [indecipherable]

Q: -- [indecipherable] oh, but not for Pesach. Not for Pesach, they came home --

A: What wa -- what was their --

Q: -- they came home for Pesach.

A: What was their name?

Q: Haslan(ph). My grandfather -- A2: Doesn't matter, we'll share the detail --

Q: -- my grandfather was [indecipherable] but they weren't there for Pesach.

A2: They didn't go for Pesach, so th-then -- we were only for Pesach, that's for 25 years.

Q: Yeah, well, they'd always come home for Pesach. My grandparents had to make their own Seder, and it was very important.

ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton 157 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: And -- and we didn't go as the chazzan we went -- went as guests, I mean, we were customers. But the last day of Pesach, they wouldn't let him off. He always davened the last day of Pesach. This was his gift to them, you know, cause he didn't [indecipherable]

A: This was my price, if I had to pay.

A2: No, we had to pay Moshe.

A: Thad to daven last day of Pesach.

A2: We had a special price, too, yeah.

A: When [indecipherable] to Pesach, people came from all the hotels.

A2: Yeah, because the owner of the hotel then was Chazzan Shainey(ph), when Moshe was 18 years old, Chazzan Siegirt(ph). So he was Chazzan Shainey(ph), right?

A: His father was Chazzan Shainey(ph).

A2: His father? Oh, his father was, okay.

A: His father was my -- Chazzan Shainey(ph).

A2: So they have the connection since then. And of course Elie Wiesel was singing in his choir.

Q: Elie Wiesel was from [indecipherable] A2: Yeah, and he s -- ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion 158

Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: Elie Wiesel sing in my choir.

A2: And he sang in his choir. We was -- yeah, what --

A: Great friends. You find Elie Wiesel, tell him regards from Moshe Kraus. He will kiss you.

A2: No, we are great friends, of course. When he came here to speak, and the only place he came visit, is he came to visit here. And of course, when he'd spoke, he greeted my dear friend, my dear old friend --

A: He greeted me from the -- A2: Okay, yeah --

A: -- from the bema.

A2: Yeah, okay. So --

A: He greeted me very nice.

A2: Yeah, and -- and for Rosh Hashanah, you went every year to Budapest to daven, in this --

Q: In your -- in your old sh -- A2: No, no -- yeah, in the old shul. Why --

A: In the old shul.

A2: -- in this year since "80, til -- til three years ago, he went every year.

Q: So Rosh Hashanah -- http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014 A2: Yom Kippur --

Q: -- in Budapest, and -- and Pesach at Miami.

A2: Pesach at Miami. Yeah, right, cause --

Q: [Yiddish] A2: [Yiddish] right. [Yiddish]

A: Not [Yiddish] A2: And of course, while living here, he davened and gave concert in -- in the [indecipherable] in Montreal many times, in Toronto many times, in -- in the States many, many ti -- all over, all over.

A: Oh, they bother me still. Ninety-three year chazzan, I have to appear -- the next -- the next -- next week I have to appear here in the parliament.

A2: That is in January.

A: Yeah.

A2: Twenty-second of January.

A: And then I have to appear -- A2: The not -- not so -- not in the parliament, sorry --

A: --and then I have to go to a wedding in -- A2: Moshe --

A: -- in--in Montreal.

160 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: No, sorry. This is not -- parliament is in April. Every year in April, the government does a --

A: [indecipherable] the government.

A2: One second, please. The government does -- made the law -- I don't know if you know, you're Canadian, that Holocaust day --

Q: Shoah.

A2: -- the Holocaust day, Yom HaShoah --

Q: Yeah.

A2: -- they make it a [indecipherable]

Q: Yes, yes, yes, we know.

A2: So the whole parliament comes, an-and Moshe does the askara.

Q: Right.

A2: For years, every year, every year. This is in April, yeah. In -- in January, it will be the city hall. It's a-- it's a Holocaust month. So again, you make the askara, because it's ho -- and -- and he will speak, you know him, of course, your friend --

A: Cutler.

A2: Cutler.

Q: Oh, I know -- you know [indecipherable] very well.

A2: Yeah, yeah. We are also great friends with Cutler, yeah. And he got to speak -- Interview with Moshe Kraus er November 30, 2014

A: I call him [indecipherable]

A2: Yeah, yeah.

A: He's [indecipherable] he loves it.

A2: So this is our life in Ottawa. In general I'll give you a picture what -- what we -- he does. What else is important?

Q: So I bin -- so basically since -- since 1980, since you left the --

A: He follow me -- he followed me from Budapest, Cutler.

A2: Ah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A: He was lost in Budapest after the -- the go-government was -- sent him.

A2: Few months ago.

A: So Shabbas he went to the great synagogue, when he was from Ottawa, do you know Moshele(ph) Kraus? He followed me from Budapest.

A2: Yeah, I said --

A: Do people remember you?

A2: They couldn't stop talking

A: He -- he ask me if I know Moshele(ph) Kraus.

A2: An-and -- and they told him that he missed you and ta-ta-ta-ta-ta, yeah, yeah.

Q: Nice, that's very nice.

162 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: Yeah, is nice now. We're good friends with him. Okay, I want to see what -- oh, when we were in Johannesburg, we didn't tell them our private traveling, ba -- fa -- besides the concert, we went to -- we went to north Rhodesia, south Rhodesia, which was -- which is today Zambia and Zimbabwe. And in -- and was a big kind of a story. Was a big also. I'll tell you the story, I'll come back. And also we went to Kariba dam, you remember? And then we dan -- Victoria Falls, yeah? Okay.

Was some big [indecipherable] the story. Was a big -- was -- there's a hotel, what was the name of this -- of the city? Let me see if I remember.

A: Wellawaya.

A2: No, no, Wellawaya. Lorenzo marques. Lorenzo marques was in Mozambique. Wellawaya was in -- in Zimbabwe yeah, Zimbabwe was we -- so this was -- there was a beautiful hot -- Hotel Polanna(ph), he wouldn't remember.

Beautiful hotel, and people from Johannesburg used to go there for weekends, because it's -- it wasn't very far by car, I don't remember how many hours we drove, but it was a special place. So once we went there, and we went there over Shabbat. And Shabbat -- I took, of course, food with me. What did I take? At that time they had, I don't know if you know, tins of cholent from Israel.

Q: Yes.

A2: You remember?

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Moshe Kraus "88 November 30, 2014

Q: I remember it, I remember that.

A2: Was -- it was delicious. So I took tins of cholent with me, because I knew -- this I give in the kitchen, I tell them to put in -- in hot water and to boil.

Q: Yeah.

A2: And then I opened it in the room, and we had cholent. So of course we had fish, but going back, the Jews that were there from Johannesburg, that knew him, when they heard he's in there, they said, you must daven. So said, where will we daven?

The shul. They have a shul there, and they have three -- three Jews left, right, three.

Q: Wow.

A2: One is the president, one is the governing body, the shab -- I don't know what's three. And two women. Two women. One of them is called ra -- what is called?

Rachel [indecipherable] that's another story, Rachel. Okay. So, the gaba(ph) -- I mean, it's not interesting -- and you'll decide. What's -- the president of the shul, as far -- they were all Sephardic Jews.

A: There was also a lot of great guests. The chief rabbi -- A2: But [indecipherable] Rabinovich(ph), I --

A: -- the chief rabbi Rabinovich(ph) -- A2:--T'm--T'm coming to it, I'm coming.

A: -- the chief rabbi of -- ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion 164

Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: From South Africa.

A: -- South Africa.

A2: He was there, and -- and he was from the -- the -- and -- and -- wait, the name -- Harry from the -- from the paper, they had to tear off the paper. Harry Hoovitz(ph). Harry Hoovitz(ph) was there with his wife, yeah? Okay, I'll come to it. What I want to say, because it's interesting, the president of the shul, I'll give you a hundred guesses what was his profession. The president of the shul in Lorenzo marques in -- in Mozambique. One guess. He was a crocodile hunter. I thought that was interesting. Yeah, it is, because it's unusual, right.

A: [indecipherable] a crocodile.

A2: A --a president from a shul a crocodile hunter, yeah. And he had the crocodile on the balcony, and you made him give it away, or -- yeah, yeah -- you went outside

A: I told him, don't keep it.

A2: Sa-- it's [indecipherable] l'chaim --

A: Throw it to -- back to the other crocodiles, and let them be happy. So he listened to me.

A2: Yeah. So anyhow, to make the story short, they announce at the hotel -- they had the loudspeaker, they announce that they're going -- yeah, the -- the president Interview with Moshe Kraus e November 30, 2014

said they" ll open the shul, this occasion, and all the Jews will go, there will be services.

A: He didn't know.

A2: Hm?

A: He didn't know, he only put a -- out on the [indecipherable]

A2: No, they announced it right on the --

Q: PA?

A: -- that announce -- he announced that there will be a service --

A2: That there will be a service, and the guest hasn't --

A: -- tonight, and tomorrow, and the chief rabbi is here from South Africa -- A2: Right, and the chazzan --

A: -- and chazzan Moshe Kraus.

A2: -- Kraus, yeah, they'll conduct the service.

A: And all of a sudden the shul got pack.

A2: We didn't know where they come from. Jews that never --

A: They live in the hotel --

Q: Maybe they were Jewish crocodiles.

A: -- but we didn't know they are Jews.

A2: Yeah.

Interview with Moshe Kraus "0 November 30, 2014

A: [indecipherable] know they are Jews.

A2: Yeah.

A: But all -- all -- all of them -- all of them were Jews.

A2: Half the hotel were Jews from South Africa. Anyhow, they went to daven, they did the service, but what sh -- what was nice, from the service, walking back to the hotel, we all sang Hebrew songs all the way, right? You remember?

A: Yeah, yeah, but what happened in shul?

A2: In shul you" ll tell this.

A: No, no, you tell the story

A2: No, I don't remember what was special in shul. No, I only remember that you sang --

A: How did you didn -- how do you know the name of the girls?

A2: No, that would [indecipherable] told you the story.

A: No, I know.

A2: Rabbi Rabinovich(ph) told you the story.

A: No, no, no, beca --

A2: When he was in the army.

A: No, no, when we was there and Rabbi Rabinovich(ph) was not there.

A2: Yeah.

167 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: And he recog -- he recognize the girl.

A2: Didn't recognize.

A: And he came on the two girls, and he was there -- was introduced, and one said her name -- what was the name?

A2: Rachel

A: Rachel. Rochella(ph). No, no, the rabbi said, her name is Rochel(ph)? Yeah, I'm Rochel(ph). What is the story, an ugly story.

A2: But this not in the book.

Q: Okay, now -- A2: This is not in the book.

A: This in the book?

A2: No, no, no, no, this is not -- shouldn't be in the book.

Q: It's okay, it's okay.

A2: Cause it's not about you, it -- it's just nothing --

Q: I want to hear the story.

A2: Yeah, but not in the book

A: Why not?

A2: Because this is not about you, and it's -- it's not so nice. It's a little bit --

A: Ah, a good story.

168 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: No, not a--

Q: Okay, tell -- tell -- A2: Tell, tell, tell.

Q: Tell the story.

A2: But shor -- but short.

A: The rabbi told the story, that he knows [indecipherable] name, because once he was sitting in London with the chief rabbi Brody(ph).

A2: During the war, during the war. Before --

A: During the war.

A2: Yeah.

A: And all of a sudden came in a Israeli officer who came from somewhere from Africa where there are very few [indecipherable] and they let him off for a week to have an -- A2: Holiday? A break?

A: --in--in---in Cairo. It was in Cairo, that they should have a hol -- a holiday there. And he came in in the hotel, he stood around with chew -- two chief rabbis.

He sat down with the two chief rabbis, and he ma -- and he ma -- in talking, he told them a story that when he arrived -- A2: In Lorenzo marques. Lorenzo marques?

169 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: -- in--in--in--in Lorenzo marques.

A2: He was in a boat, so they don't --

A: You know, an-an-an-an-and they gived him [indecipherable] to go down. They needed girls and all the things, says ah. And so he went also, find girl. So all of a sudden he sees a girl, and begins to talk with her the price. And she wanted I don't know how much. He want -- don't want to give her more than five dollars. And here, she was standing downstairs, and upstairs was her sister. And she said to her sister keeto(ph) Rocho(ph)! He wants to give me only five dollars.

A2: In Yiddish, in Yiddish.

A: Yeah.

A2: In Yiddish.

A: [indecipherable] dollar [Yiddish] So from there, he remembers that her name is Rochel(ph).

A2: So many years later, can you imagine, when he was told that two Jewish women here, say, is one of them Rochel(ph). You can't win [indecipherable] Okay, so --

A: This is a true story.

A2: Okay, so -- yeah. And then -- this was Lorenzo marques, but what was with Kariba dam and -- and Victoria Falls, it's interesting. We toured, by car, we went ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion 170

Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 with another couple, one of these friends from Johannesburg, we went to Rhodesia, north Rhodesia first, which is today Zambia. Zambia, yeah.

Q: Zimbabwe.

A2: No, north -- south is Zimbabwe.

Q: Oh, okay, okay, whatever.

A2: Yeah, yeah. And then they took us to the Kariba dam.

Q: Kariba -- A2: At that ti-- Kariba dam. At that time this was the largest dam in the world, in the world. And it's huge.

A: Natural, natural.

A2: Not natural, it's a dam.

A: Yeah, yeah, but [indecipherable] but it was a natural dam.

A2: No, there isn't such a thing and ach -- they build the dam.

A: They build the dam?

A2: Of course, they build it for years. And they told us how many people, brought a lot of people from Italy, workers, how many killed -- were killed by lions, animals, because you know, it was the city, it was the jungle, or whatever. So we saw the dam, we were very, very impressed. Very impressed. Later, when we came to Victoria Falls, which is in the border of s-s -- South Africa and ziba -- then it was

171 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 south Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, we saw the Victoria Falls. Well, when we saw the first time, Moshe started singing ca -- I remember every word. [sings in Yiddish] Because it's so mighty, it's unbelievable. And what was so impressive, the Kariba dam was man-made. Yeah, it was impressive, and big and everything.

But this is natural, I don't know if you have been, or heard about it, the -- it's -- it's -- we thought it's the la -- it's -- yeah, when we

A: Something you must go and see.

A2: Yeah. When we came, many, many years ago, when we went to see the -- the -- hear the --

Q: Niagara?

A2: -- th-the vet -- huh? Niagara Falls --

A: Niagara.

A2: What -- what did we say to each other? That's -- that's it? You remember, that's it?

Q: After Victoria Falls.

A2: After so many years we heard about Niagara Falls, Niagara Falls, there's a film and now you have one. And that's it? Because it's no comparison. First of all, at that time when we were there, I don't know today, it was nothing, just a falls.

172 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 There was just one the hotel, the big -- the hotel, and that's it, nothing else. Niagara Falls is so commercial.

Q: Yeah.

A2: I mean, and it's -- and the size of the Victoria Falls, it was one mile. One mile wide, and I don't know how tall.

Q: How tall.

A2: I mean un -- it's just unbelievable, unbelievable. Very, very -- so he starts singing, he was so impressed. This the thing you can write, because it's -- it happened to him, and -- and it's -- you know, we talk about -- he started singing, koleshem(ph) bada(ph), koleshem(ph) bakurach(ph). Yeah, and you said, this was man-made and this was nature. This is what God made, look what he made.

Yeah, this is what I wanted to tell you the story about. Yeah, and of course, he -- when we were in Lorenzo marques, when we walked back singing, I told you, I called them all to come to my room in hotel, and I gave them cholent. Ah, this was an event, they talked about this cholent for -- for years, because they never expected.

it, you know, to eat in -- in a [indecipherable] so much cholent for Shabbas. Yeah, okay, so this was that. [inaudible] Yeah, this other thing I read. That's it, I finished, I don't --

A: That's all.

173 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: That's what I --I wrote, yeah, yeah.

Q: That's it, yeah, fantastic.

A2: Now you can finish whatever you --

A: You haven't got more?

A2: No, not -- nothing that I remember to mont -- I'm sure II remember later, oh, I forgot this, I forgot that. What did -- I don't remember to one more. Maybe if we talk it will come --

Q: Yeah.

A2: Something else will come.

Q: Anything come to your mind that you wanted to share that we didn't talk about yet?

A2: Well, in Cleveland -- by the way, or I--I have to show you. In May, this last May, he was invited to come to do a service in Antwerp.

Q: Oh, wow.

A2: mean --

Q: [indecipherable] A2: No, but don't forget, he was 92 -- 92. Never in the history happened in life that I know, that the chazzan, or opera singer at 92 was invited anywhere to do a service.

And here, Pll show you -- 174 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

Q: We saw it, we saw it [indecipherable] A2: Yeah, you saw it, okay. Yeah, how he called you, and you saw what he said -- Q2: Yeah, greatest in the world.

A2: -- the gr -- the greatest cantor of -- in our generation, da-da-da, they made it -- don't have to tell it. This is now. Then, from New York, in -- in aug -- the end of August we were in New York, [indecipherable] was invited -- this was also interesting. They made a special memorial for Hungarian Jews. And it was -- it was made in the Jewish museum in -- in Manhattan. And there were eight --

A: What a -- what a building.

A2: What a building.

A: Oh [inaudible] A2: And 800 people were there.

A: What a hall.

A2: Yeah.

A: Nine hundred people actually.

A2: Nine hundred, okay, okay.

A: Excuse me, 900 people.

A2: I--I excuse you, I excuse you. The speakers, the boch -- they brought him to do specially the askara, and Moshe, when they called -- ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton 175

Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: They booked me for 450 people on the -- A2: Yeah.

A: -- but they were then, when they got to know I am coming -- A2: And 450 -- yeah, they sold, yeah.

A: -- another 400 people came.

A2: When they called him, Moshe asked them, listen, I am 92 years old. There must be a hundred chazanim in New York. Take one of them. Why do you bring me from -- they said, but -- you know what they said to him? But they are not Moshe Kraus. This is what they told him.

A: And they are right.

A2: Yeah, right, of course they're right. With all -- with all your humbleness.

Q: That's fantastic.

A2: A few thing mos -- th-they never accuse Moshe, one of them being too humble.

They never accused him of it, yeah. So --

Q: I think Golda -- I think Golda said, don't be so humble, you're not so terrific.

A2: They're not so big, you're not so big.

A: What? What, what?

Q: Don't be so humble, you're not so terrific.

176 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: Yeah. When we were in Cleveland, by the way, this reminds me, so they made --he daven the Shabbat, and then they made a few exceptions. Shabbat morning was a kiddush special, and Sunday morning --

Q: And this was recently, or -- A2: This was a cl -- [indecipherable] was in August -- August --

A: Ma -- ma ---I must -- I must interrupt you, to say about Golda. It reminds me a story when it was the Yom Kippur war. So, they were not very good, the Israelis were very poor and with -- with things.

A2: They were not prepared, were not pre -- they were not prepared. They were not

Q: Let him -- let him tell it.

A: [indecipherable] they needed things, and see lik -- Nixon -- A2: Was president --

A:--wouldn't give, because Kissinger would tell him not to gi-- Kissinger, can you believe it? A man, he was [indecipherable] Israel. He was [indecipherable] Israel. He wouldn't let them give to Israel things. He said no, this is a lost business, and Golda came to try to persuade him. And she sits with him and talks, and nothing helps. Kissinger told me he's a Jew, and he told me not to give you, I can't give you and I ge -- don't give you, and you can talk to tomorrow. Okay.

177 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: No, didn't s --

A: So they begin to talk normal, and all of a sudden Golda told him, you know, you're -- he -- he told to Golda, I want you to know -- A2: Nixon.

A: --I'm not an anti-Semite. I'm not an anti-Semite, and he -- just Kissinger told me not to -- I want you to -- you to know, I have a foreign -- a foreign -- a foreign minister, Kissinger, he's a Jew, and he told me not to give you. And she said to him, you are right, he is a Jew.

A2: We have something in common.

A: But I have also a Jewish -- A2: We have something in common.

A: -- fom -- foreign minister. We have something in common. I have also a Jewish -- A2: Foreign minister.

A: -- prime -- fi-- foreign minister, but my -- my -- mine speaks English.

A2: This was Abba Eban then.

A: Abba Eban was his -- and you know Abba Eban, he used to give a speak -- a speech, all of them used to come with -- with -- with -- A2: Dictionaries.

A: -- with --

178 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014 A2: Dictionaries.

A: -- dictionaries, because they knew he -- his English, they couldn't understand.

A2: By the way, Abba Eban, when we were in Mexico, they told us also, he speaks such a Mexican, we don't even understand. And we were in Persia, they told us he was here, and we couldn't understand his Persian. Yeah, this man was a genius. But in Israel, for some reason, they called him [Yiddish]. They said he is not smart. He is intelligent, but not smart. This is what they said, I don't know. Okay, we didn't --

Q: I have a one -- I have one Golda/Nixon story.

A2: Yeah?

Q: When they were sitting to -- Golda was sitting with Nixon, Nixon says, Golda, for General Moshe Dayan, I'll give you three American generals. I want Dayan.

She said, no problem, you take Dayan and you give me, General Motors, General Electric, and General Systems.

A2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Q: Okay. Couldn't resist.

A2: So -- so where are we now?

Q: First of all I have to -- first of all, we're not really finished, I want to tell you how delightful it is to meet you, number one.

A2: Thank you.

179 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

Q: And the life that you led can make anybody -- or, I don't want to use the word jealous, but I'm in awe of your experiences, your talent, your -- your -- your ability to travel, and to change, and to meet people, and change cities and -- and adapt, and host. It is absolutely magnificent, I think you were -- you're blessed to have each other, you're blessed to have a life like this, and you should continue --

A: Do you hear this?

Q: -- this [indecipherable] A2: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Q: Magnificent. I'm really very --

A: Do you hear this?

Q2: You are -- it's recorded. Do you want it?

A2: I'm not -- I'm not -- I'm not -- I'm not deaf. Of course I hear it. Thank you, thank you.

A: I want a copy.

Q: Fantastic, it's really fantastic, and you just keep --

A: I tell you that I believe, I tr--I will tell you the truth. You know, I'm not a youngster, and we had a nice morning, had a nice lunch, and I think I need a little rest.

Q: Yeah, I think so too.

180 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: I mean, I want you to go early because I don't want you to drive at night, especially at night it's raining.

A2: And you come again.

A: And y-y-you -- you -- you don't need it. I on -- I only ask, I think if it's possible, to have another Sunday, or any day, be-because I -- I am retired, I can be for you --

Q: Pm not.

A: -- Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday -- A2: So -- so Sunday.

A: -- Thursday -- A2: So another Sunday.

A: Oh, why not? Oh, so you can make it another sun -- so next Sunday, if you want.

Because -- A2: No, next Sunday --

A: -- because I -- A2: -- we're busy. We're busy next Sunday.

A: What are -- what are we doing?

A2: [ll tell you later, we are busy next Sunday.

A: What is it?

A2: Moshe, it doesn't have to be now.

181 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: What is it?

A2: Secret.

A: What?

A2: A secret.

Q: I won't listen [indecipherable] A2: He's so inquisitive, he just --

A: It i--it is for me first, before the secret, what is your secret?

A2: Okay, nothing.

A: What is next Sunday?

A2: So-

A: Rivka, what is next Sunday? Th-Th-Th-Th-Th -- the -- the -- A2: She's coming.

A: The Chinese -- A2: Yeah, auction.

A: Yeah.

A2: Yeah.

A: And I can afternoon, can I -- can I little sleep, and I can go to the Chinese evening.

A2: Listen, we have to leave here, 6:30 we have to leave.

Interview with Moshe Kraus " November 30, 2014

A: Oh? So?

A2: Yeah. And you want to sleep afternoon, so --

A: If they leave lunchtime, it's no problem.

A2: Okay.

A: No problem.

Q: Can you show me how to use [indecipherable]

A2: Okay.

A: You want to come next Sunday? Because I don't want to go --

Q: If you'll let me --

A2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah --

A: I--I'm not a youngster --

A2: Let him finish.

A: --and I'm afraid for tomorrow.

A2: Okay, okay, yeah, you're right, you're right.

A: I want to be a lot quicker, possible. I will try to do everything to remember stories and write it down, and make me a--a--

Q: If you'll let me come without -- he can't come, but I could come. So if you'll let me in without him, I'm happy to come next Sunday.

A2: Okay.

Interview with Moshe Kraus es November 30, 2014

A: [indecipherable] this?

Q: He'll teach me, hell teach me. I think I just have to press --

A: What is -- what is on a Sunday later?

Q2: No [indecipherable] in Boston.

Q: No, then we're -- then we're going to Boston for our son's graduation, so -- A2: Okay, so next Sunday, 10 o'clock. Next Sunday 10 0'clock.

Q: Yes. Yeah, I can do this.

A2: Fine, fine.

A: Or you could come Saturday night, you sleep over,

Q: No, it's easier for me in the morning.

A: -- and begin -- and begin here nine o'clock.

Q2: What did I do wrong?

A: Pardon?

A2: Yeah, to take her away.

Q: Yeah, he has to be home on Sunday, but I don't, so --

A2: Okay, so sun ocl -- 10 o'clock next Sunday.

A: But you will drive through all the rain?

Q: [have no problem.

A2: It's only two hours, Moshe.

184 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

Q: [have no problems -- A2: Yeah.

Q: -- two hours, I listen to some good music and I'm happy in the car.

A: Can't you come with the bus?

Q: I could, but I don't want to. You don't worry -- you worry that I'm here, we talk and I leave. That's it.

A2: Okay. So everything that you --

Q: Now you only co -- I mean, I can come earlier if you want, but -- but you said you -- you're sure you want me.

A: I don't want you -- I want -- don't want you -- get you up for early.

A2: No, no. No, no, it's early enough.

Q: That's not a pr -- that's not a problem, maybe you [indecipherable]

A: I want to -- A2: No, but -- but he goes to shul.

A: -- get up seven o'clock --

Q: Yeah, shul -- A2: Yeah.

Q: What time do you get home from shul?

A2: About -- 185 Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: -- get up seven o'clock, had your breakfast, and eight o'clock leave, and 10 o'clock you will be here.

A2: He comes from shul between 9:30 - 10.

Q: Okay.

A2: Depends --

Q: Okay, so there's no rush to come early.

A2: No.

A: And from 10 til one we will work, one o'clock we have lunch, and -- and -- and -- and -- and --

Q: And then I say -- A2: Goodbye.

Q: [indecipherable]

A: Yeah.

A2: Okay, is there anything that you need, that if you forgot to -- I don't know what.

Q2: So then you'll bring the papers back next week.

Q: Oh, yeah, so I'll take them home and I'Il read wi -- A2: Yeah, and bring next Sunday.

Q: -- T'll read the articles, and I'll bring it back next Sunday.

A2: Yeah.

186

Interview with Moshe Kraus November 30, 2014

A: Okay.

Q: [indecipherable] A2: Is there anything else? Yeah.

Q: I think so, yeah.

End of File Three

Conclusion of Interview