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A: The jaw. When the jaw starts to hurt you, then he knows he has enough. And there were other cases that, the peasant people they always wanted to show off their strength and there was one, he was known as strong. So he came over once and said "Let's wrestle." My brother said I don't want to wrestle, I'm not a wrestler. He said "Let's wrestle." He wanted to show he is stronger, so my brother didn't want to bother, and later he bothered him and he said "Okay, let's wrestle." So they took off their jacket, the other guy took off his jacket. It took a second, the other one was stretched out. So then he said that he approved he's the strongest. And then he was with me in the woods after a year and we escaped from the camp. But in the end he died of a heart attack, actually he had cancer in his mouth and then they gave him so much cortisone that, awful big dose, that he went for a visit to Israel and while he was on the visit to Israel he died and the dead was a heart attack, but this was caused by the cortisone. So this is about Leibush. Now, about Shulim, now you have written down here, I don't know, you have the record.....

Q: I have the copy back in my office.

A: Shulim, here is not pronounced right, it's not the A is not important. All right, so this you have corrected. Now, you want me to read this over and correct it what is here?

Q: Well, let's see.

A: Let's see what is important, what's not important. Now this was written on the ID, let's see what we can correct. He's a very beautiful boy, my nephew, I don't see that this uh.....

Q: Yeah, I think we're not going to use that voice. You know, it's going to be written.

A: Him. Right, so he cannot say I'm a very beautiful boy. He is three years old, his parents dressed him in a player's show, cut his hair for the first time and brought him to the teacher at the religious school, at the cheder. His father can hardly wait for the day when Shulim will begin his public school education. I think this is very.....it's not the right language.

Q: Okay.

A: So they can get better language, "39 the Germans have taken over our town, Shulim nine years old, knows that he no longer goes to school because all the Jewish schools have been shut down. He didn't have no Jewish schools, this was public schools and Jews couldn't attend public schools anymore, not that the Jewish schools were shut down. And he cannot walk on the sidewalks, this was not right in the beginning, Jews could walk on the sidewalks, but this was not the main thing because he is a Jew. But he doesn't understand what lies behind these tules because I think the whole thing is, he couldn't go to school because Jewish schools were shut down; all schools were shut down. In 1944 Shulim turned twelve in 1942 the Germans were, we can say we were at this time in the ghetto in Kolbuszowa.

Q: In deg42?

A: In "42, because the ghetto was established in July "41. The Germans law was that all Jews twelve years and up had to wear the yellow armband. We didn't have a yellow armband. The white with the blue Star of David. Had to wear the white and blue armband, there was nothing, and register for work. This is okay, we had to register from 12 to 60. Getting the band was

such a proud moment for Shulim, to him it meant he was now a man, that he was growing up to be like his father. He never realized that it was part of the Nazi, I don't use the word Nazi, as the Germans plan to kill the Jews. I don't who the Nazis, Shulim and German, maybe we can say the picture, because we'll take out , the picture that he asked me, or he can say I asked my uncle to make a picture and I have a picture the day he put on the armband.

Q: I know that picture.

A: The picture, and when he shows off the band, because he was so proud of it so maybe this can be incorporated.

Q: So he asked you?

A: Yes, he bothered me.

Q: Uncle Naftali, can you make a picture of me with the....?

A: Yeah. Then I made the picture and I took the other children also and he showed the band.

Q

; He put it on the other arm?

A: Well, no he had it on the right arm. He had it on the right arm, but he pulls out the arm to show the picture; he was so proud of it. Shulim was transported with his mother, brother and sister to Belges death camp where he was killed in July 1942. Now, should we.....

Q: July 19?

A: No, July, I don't know the date.

Q: Just July, 1942.

A: July, 1942 because I don't know because they were kept in the trains, but in July he was killed.

Now I don't know if we should write anymore about his father, that his father survived, or just to let it go.

Q: Probably just let it go.

A: Okay.

Q: What else do you remember about Shulim as a child?

A: Well I remember. ...

Q: Did he like certain things?

A: He was a very good- looking boy, he was really very -- and he was a very good student, when he started to go to school. Because after all he went already three years in public school was from six to nine, and he was a very, very good student.

Q: So he went to public school and also to.....?

A: Yes, he went to public school and after public school he went to cheder, to a Jewish school, like everybody else. From eight to twelve or one, we went to public school. Then in the afternoon, from two on, I think we went to cheder. And when the war broke out there was nothing left anymore, what else, there is nothing.

Q: Did he ever help on the work detail?

A: Well, when he started, when he was twelve years old, he was sent out like everybody else, work details. It was arranged by the Judenrat, by the Jewish Council for the Germans to come and grab people from the streets, their houses, so it was arranged how many was in the work force from the ghetto, so everybody got a card that this and this day he has to report to work. They worked, they sent them out, since he became 12, he worked, came out two or three times a week to go to work, in the winter mostly by snow and the summer on the roads and other things. And we lived together because in the ghetto we moved in the apartment where Leibush lived; so happens that this apartment was in the place where the part of the ghetto was at. And we got the room and we worked together, we lived together. He wasn't, it wasn't so bad because my brother he was a member of the Judenrat, the first Judenrat and he was selected by the

about which we will talk later and then later he was arrested but, in the book it's written how he was released because only three Jews were released from jail, the rest were killed, the whole Judenrat. Leibush's father is still in the ghetto, he had his store because this was the place that he was not thrown out. So, how much he could buy and market things and this way he was not bad off in the ghetto. They had enough, everything. Until it was the transport to J and J to Belges and then they were killed.

Q: So they lived in an apartment, that's what they had?

A: Well, they had an apartment, the apartment was of two large rooms and a large kitchen, so when we moved into the ghetto we took over the large kitchen, I say we, I mean my father, my mother, and I and two sisters. So we had the kitchen, and he with his three children had the bedroom, so we lived together what we used the same kitchen and they had this one room. But he also had, in the basement, he had the store still, there was not too much merchandise, but how much he could buy from black marketeeers, so he had, and he was busy in the store.

Q: So he lived above the store?

A: He lived above the basement, yeah, and we lived in the same.....and he was lucky in this time that his apartment, his store was in the ghetto. Like for us, they threw us out from our house and to go into the ghetto, but he was there, so we came to live with him. Now, if we wouldn't live from him there would be other people, but this way when we took it over, so nobody else came in the house. But the main thing is from Shulim, also here you have written down 1945, Shulim was born the same year as Richard, my older brother's son, but Richard was born in America.

My brother had moved there after a pogrom in our town in 1919. I always think of these two, Richard now a doctor in America, Shulim killed in Poland at 13, not 13 but 12. See the people are so stupid, they know by he was born in 1930 and he was killed in 1942, but here they mark down 13. So he was born when he was 12 years old. So this, I think, this is a very nice sentence, that to compare those two, Richard now a doctor in America and Shulim killed in

Poland at the age of twelve. So, what you can write too much, but I think what you have is enough material.

Q: Anything distinguishing about his mother that you remember?

A: Well, his mother was a housewife and she took care of -- nothing distinguished. She took care on the house and Leibush took care on the store, but nothing special. But maybe to mark down that Leibush survived the war. That Leibush survived the war with me in the woods and died in America in 1960. Okay, now we have this, we have this and they will be the same kind of passports, the new ones?

Q: Yes.

A: Well that is a very nice format, it looks very good. The only thing it should be correct.

Q: Exactly.

A: No who do we go now? To

Q: Yeah, that would be very interesting to do.

A: Passports come out, send the corrected passports this way. I want to keep it, I have always collections I would like. Now Naftali you went over mine, so we don't have to add anything on mine.

Q: No, no.

A: Now, what you want Dr. Anderman. His name was Leon Anderman.

Q: A-N-D-E-R-M-A-N?

A: A-N-D-E-R-M-A-N, yeah. Leon Anderman, he came to Kolbuszowa from uh, it came out the book, All Physicians in Poland and he was a mention to that I dated back to my nephew but that was written the year when he was born, the date. Anyway, he came to Kolbuszowa in the early 20's and he -- well not in the 20's mark down in the 20's, I don't know if the early twenties. So cross off the early twenties. He became the physician of Kolbuszowa. There were in this time, there were two doctors in Kolbuszowa; it was the county doctor, the official doctor which we called the physic, and then there it was this private doctor. Mostly Jews used him, he was very.....

Q: Used Dr. Anderman?

A: Dr. Anderman, yeah. He was a very assimilated Jew, he didn't have anything to do with the Jewish causes, he never stepped in the synagogue, and so was his wife. They had one son, he was about two years younger than I was; his name was Jurek, J-U-R-E-K. He was -- he never attended a cheder, or to a Jewish school. His wife had never any contact with Jewish women.

He was very respected by the Polish community as he was an officer in the Polish army, in the reserve army, he was also an officer yet in the Austrian army.

Q: Where was he from originally?

A: He was originally from a town near Tarnople, this is near Stanislovov this is near the Russian border, there was a few brothers he was originally from there. He started medicine in Vienna, because this belonged to ---. Too bad I don't have the book because in the book it's written exactly the date when he was born, when he graduated.

Q: Is it a ""Who's Who" of ---?

A: Only doctors, a book about physicians in Poland.

Q: Oh really?

A: Who died, who were killed. It's a thick book, if you want to know I can find out exactly, you want to know about this, is it important?

Q: Yeah, I'd like to try to get his birth date.

A: Okay.

Q: I may even be able to find this book at the Library of Congress.

A: It's book, he has it, so I'll give it to you. Give Kevin the information, I'll tell him to make a copy.....information of Dr. Anderman. It's also, certain things is not correct also. Somebody who wrote it didn't know. Well, anyway he, said he never bothered with Jewish causes when the first time when they threw out the Jews from Germany in this was the first time that he came. They organized a committee in every little town to help the German Jews who were thrown out and we organized in Kolbuszowa also and this is the first time he took part for it. And I remember the first time that he attended shul when he spoke about giving money to this organization to help. The second time I remember he came to shul to speak that when before the war started and the Polish government saw that there have to be a war, so they wanted the citizens should donate money to buy airplanes because the Polish air force didn't have too many airplanes; they had a few. So, they collected money so I remember he, this is the second time he came to shul, he spoke to the Jews, naturally he spoke Polish. Spoke to the Jews willing to give money, and I remember his words, he said, "Today we beg you to give the money, but in a few months, I am afraid they will take it without." He meant the Germans, they would take it without begging you, without asking you. He asked the people for money, and then this was the first two times, when the war started he was drafted as a reservist, as a doctor to the army. He was taken to a prisoners" camp in an officers" prisoner of war camp. And then later he was released, short after he was released and see, in this book was written exactly where he was interned.

Q: This was after the German invasion?

A: After the German invasion, he was in the army, they drafted him, they drafted all the doctors and he was a reserve officer, being a doctor so they drafted him. And then he was taken as a prisoner of war, and he came back to Kolbuszowa he started to run his office. When the Germans ordered the Jews should make a Judenrat, that means a Jewish council, and there was one Jew who right away volunteered. As the Germans came in he started to be an important

man by the Germans, he started to come to the commandant and he started to tell them all kinds of stories. He was not a very person, this..... he started to tell them which Jews have hidden merchandise, as a matter of fact my father suffered very much from this Jew. Like he came to my -- the Germans liked coffee, coffee beans. He came to my -- and we had coffee beans hidden so he came every day for coffee beans. Today he wanted two kilo, the next day three kilo and then four kilo....and then my father told him how much can I give you, I mean we don't have new shipments. He said to him a well, if you take so much water out it will be dry. So he said well if you don't want to give more I will take it, so he went to the Germans and he squealed that my father has hidden merchandise. They came over and they took away everything we had. I remember it was three days that they went and loaded everything we had because he squealed.

Q: Not just coffee, everything?

A: Everything, they took everything, they took even personal things, everything because they said that he ---. They took away everything, we had a lot of merchandise because this merchandise could be sold and we could have money, but they took away everything. My father ran away, and then because he was afraid that they will arrest him, I run away and this time I run away to Russia, which later I came back. And he, and this man wanted to become the president because the Germans said you have to organize a Jewish council, but the Jews knew if he would become council, it would be very bad for the Jews because he was, like I said. Before the war everybody knew somebody wanted to have a witness in court, if there was a court case and they needed a witness, he would always be a witness for money, naturally. So even there was here in America there are sayings if I speak to some people from Kolbuszowa and I ask them something and they don't want to tell me a lie, so they said, what do you think, I am this and this? I don't want to mention his name because he has his family. So they say, what do you think I am him? He was known that he is -- for money he can be a witness. So then we Jews knew that if he would become the president it would be bad for Jews because he would collaborate with the Germans. So the Jews started to speak to prominent Polish Catholics, especially to the mayor, who we told him that we are very concerned that he would become the president, not only this, because if he will be president he will pick out members, his friends, his like, and then it will be bad. We the Jews, I say we, I say the Jews themselves, say the only one who could actually be stronger than him is Dr. Anderman, he didn't look Jewish, I mean he didn't have a beard, most of the Jews had beards and he spoke beautiful German because he started in Vienna and he was a proud man and he would never -- he would be able to protect the Jews. A group of Jewish people went to him and they said to him he should become so he said, I was never involved with Jewish things, I am a doctor. I don't want to be a politician, and I don't want to have a job like this. The Jews begged him, they told him, look if you don't do it, you are the only one, can protect us from this man and he knew that this man is no good for the Jews. Well, anyway, after a few times. I remember my father went to him and others, he said all right, I will do it against my judgment, I will do it, only on one condition. If I will -- he had to pick out ten or twelve members of the council, -- only if I can pick out the people I want. So, he made the list and he picked out mostly younger people, mostly people without beards, and that shouldn't be, again, the Germans shouldn't dislike them and also, people who were in the Jewish community leaders before the war. They were people, respected citizens, and people who were quite well off and he picked out this Jewish council which included my brother Leibush, and my brother-in-law Sh , well younger people. He organized the Jewish council which was a blessing for Kolbuszowa because before the Germans used to grab people from the streets from their houses for work. He organized and made lists,

and everything that had to be done was done through the organization. If you want more details, in the book I have more details about Anderman.

Q: So around July "41 he became the head of the Judenrat?

A: No, no. He became head of the Judenrat in, before the ghetto, he became head of the Judenrat in the middle of "40. In the middle of "40, even earlier, I would say in spring of 40, spring 1940, yeah. And then he ran the Judenrat and it was run very -- he was very just, and if they had to take money because they needed for certain things, he always took it from people that had money. If you want a few details you read the book about this chapter, you'll see he was a very fair man, and I liked him very much. Later he opened an ambulatorium, a free clinic because he was a doctor and he knew a lot of people don't have money, so my sister and the brother-in-law who was also a member of the Judenrat, had the empty store because he was in the flower business, and in the war they didn't have flower, so he opened in his store the ambulatorium. He was there two or three times a week in the afternoon, and everybody who was sick, especially the poorer people came there and he treated them without fee. He needed help so he asked me with other friend of mine, and he became -- we worked and he started to teach me how to dress wounds and how to clean boils and all these things and I was very good as I always wanted to be a doctor, I was very good at it. I went there and for this, because I was with him, this work released me from going to work on the roads or something and I worked with him for over a year in this ambulatorium.

Q: When did that open? That ambulatorium?

A: This ambulatorium opened in the middle of "40, yeah, I would say in the summer of 1940. And I worked with him with my friend, we........Then later more and more, I was more skilled, so a lot of things I could do, special with wounds and dressings and all those things.

Q: You saw Poles and Jews there?

A: No, no only Jews. No Poles, they had their doctors there, he wasn't allowed to treat Poles; the Germans forbid a Jewish doctor to treat Poles. Then also he gave me a job, before the war I was the buyer for my father's store and I used to go to different towns. They needed somebody to bring in the flour and other food what Germans gave on carts to the Jews, and this had to be, we had to bring it from Jeshup, from other towns. Also we had to buy a lot of stuff from the black market, like potatoes, they didn't give us enough, other things that we needed we opened a public kitchen, a soup kitchen in -- he organized a soup kitchen. The kitchen needed certain things that the Germans didn't give us, so I -- they picked me up and I went out twice a week to different towns. I got a pass and I could go out and I could travel, and I brought in all those things that the Jewish community got officially from the Germans. By going out and having this pass, I also could buy a lot of black market for the Jewish -- for the soup kitchen we needed, and also I bought on the black market for myself, for my family. I brought in stuff and they sold it so they could make something out of it, my father. So this was how we worked with Anderman and I became very, very friendly with Anderman and I admired him because he was very fair. There was something, a question about having privileges, the people who were in the Jewish council, they wanted to take advantage, he always was against it. Again in his book, you have the stories about it. Then they organized the ghetto, they organized the ghetto so he was responsible for the Jewish should have where to live. He built a house a year before the war, and this was the most exclusive, the most beautiful house in Kolbuszowa very ---. It was a

modern house, this was the only house what had electricity and was the only house who had indoor plumbing. You see, he had a, not compressor, what you call it, to make electricity.

Q: A generator?

A: He had a generator and the generator produced enough electricity to take care on the toilets, with the water. It was a beautiful house, it had nice furniture, so this the head of the county, the German who was very vicious, his name was Twardon. And Twardon wanted to take over his house for himself because it was in a nice section. So he urged Anderman to take over an apartment in the ghetto, in the place where the ghetto is. He said to him, you take, because you are the head of the Judenrat, pick out the best apartment for yourself. Anderman said I will not pick out an apartment until the last Jew has a roof over his head. And if the Jews will be settled, then I will take it. See, he wanted to move in his apartment, then later said to him, I want to move in the apartment but he wanted a Jews should give him 10,000 zloty to renovate the apartment. He said renovate it, it's just a new house, it's just a year old. And besides, why do you have to renovate, you wouldn't live long in this house, the war will end and I will go back to the house. See, he didn't like these answers.

Q: That's a very bold thing to say.

A: Yes, yes, well he didn't like these answers, so on a certain day this was about, I would say about two weeks after the ghetto was established, Twardon came and he arrested the whole Judenrat, everybody in the Judenrat. Besides the Judenrat he also arrested about ten more people, and naturally for the town it was a very big shock they arrested, but Anderman was free. Everybody said Anderman he's the father of us and he will try to go out and try to see that they should be released. He went and spoke to this Twardon so two days later, or a day later he was arrested.

Once he was arrested we felt that the situation was very grave because he was the only one who could --. They were in jail in Kolbuszowa about two weeks.

Q: So the whole Judenrat except him was arrested first?

A: First, yes, and then later he was arrested, two days later. So, he -- now my brother was arrested, my brother-in-law wasn't arrested, because my brother-in-law, I'm writing also in the book, there was before the ghetto was established they took a certain amount of Jews from the market place and they sent them away to have less Jews by us. He wasn't there, so they didn't arrest him. Later though he came back, we paid money, he came back, so there was no Judenrat. Now we were alone so naturally the police started to come in and the police started to make orders but then he said he's looking for a new head of the Judenrat. While they were sitting in jail, they were also sitting two brothers, their name was Rappaport, Yanchi Rappaport and Pashi Rappaport and they were Jews without beards, they were young, they were educated Jews.

They had their business before the war that they used to send pigs to Katervitz it's a big town near the German border, this was their business, so Anderman said....

Q: Pigs they sent?

A: Yeah, this was their business. They bought pigs, they sent them out, they slaughtered them, they sent the meat to this town and they had this business. It was a very unusual business for Jews but they were not observant Jews, so this is what they did. Anderman knew -- we knew that Twardon's looking for a new but he wants to have someone with authority, so even in

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection jail, because in jail they lived in one big basement, it was not like a regular jail, but they kept them in the basement from the magistrate building. So Anderman said that if he would ask somebody to become the president of Judenrat everybody should refuse. This way if everyone would refuse and to say that they cannot take care on this only Anderman can. This maybe will force them to let out Anderman. Meanwhile this Rappaport who was there he didn't listen to him and he told his wife to go to Twardon and tell him that her husband, this Pashik Rappaport is willing to become Judenrat. That he's young, he's energetic, he's good looking and the German would like him, and he speaks good German and they have a business in K . He looked at her, she was a good looking woman and one day the police came and they took out this Pashik and they saw that he --. They take him away to the office where the _____ so right away Jews started to suspect but he said oh nobody will become the ald.

Anyway he spoke to Twardon and he told Twardon he would be a good Judenrat man and he will serve the Germans and all these things and he released him and his brother from jail, and he made the president and his brother the assistant. Once this happened, Anderman said now we have lost everything. We didn't believe that a Jew would do it but he did and this man started to pick out members of the Judenrat. Naturally he picked out different kinds of people that Anderman wanted. Anderman wanted the best quality and he picked out from the people that they were servant. He was in the cattle business so he took a few people who were in the cattle business and a few black marketers. He made a new Judenrat. Now the new Judenrat started to work and then the Polish population wanted to take away Anderman. Anderman could go out because, as a matter of fact, practically every night he went out to sleep in some Polish house.

This was watched, this jail was watched by the municipal police. They knew him so they let him out and the next day before dawn he came back. The Polish people begged him not to go back. Eventually they would do something with those people, they will not keep them forever.

He didn't listen; he said that the Jews cannot take care. I am the one who can speak to the Germans for them; they listen to me. He didn't run away and then one day they came and they took all of them away to J . They let out only three Jews, they let out, my brother included. If you read the book you will know the reason why. My brother-in-law came back from J____ so Twardon said that there are some members of the first Judenrat, they should take them in. They became in the second Judenrat. They were inJ__ about two weeks. After two weeks they took all of them to Auschwitz and this time Auschwitz was not so prominent as later. They took them to Auschwitz and as they took them to Auschwitz, the families start to receive telegrams. They said this one died from cancer, this one died on pneumonia, this one died trying to escape.

Let me flip the tape.

END OF SIDE A, TAPE 1

Q: Very good, yeah.

A: Must be -- because I bought one, it's not very good. All right so there came the telegrams and always the telegrams had something to say. They had to sign, somebody died, let's say on lung cancer. Why they had to sign that he suffered from lung cancer a long time. Why they did it, why they make so evident a ------; somebody died on some other sickness, that he suffered from it. Then a week after they received the telegrams and you could see the postman came in went into a house, that right away you could hear the crying and the screaming so we knew that he comes with a telegram. About two weeks later, the same people received bills from Auschwitz with bills to pay for the cremation with some ashes. They had to pay for the cremation. This is how Anderman was gone. Meanwhile when he was arrested, his wife and son were left in

Kolbuszowa with non-Jewish friends. They went to Warsaw and they lived this Aryan as Catholics in Warsaw. His wife survived but the son was an officer in the Polish underground when it was the Warsaw uprising. Not the Warsaw uprising but the Jews of the general Warsaw uprising, he was killed in the uprising. His wife survived and after a while she came over here an old broken woman. She died here in America. For Anderman, when he was arrested so the Polish people, even the mayor who was in went to V and told them he should be released if he says the Polish patriot and he is such an honest man. He says this is why we arrested him, he was too honest. I think that this Anderman that what he did for the Jews that he never, never associated with the Jews, that he was an exceptional man. | always say if the Jews would ever have saints like the Catholics have saints, Anderman should have been a saint.

Because he could have survived, he had a possibility; he had help from the Polish people, he was considered to be a Polish Catholic. He said ,No, I cannot do it, I have to stay with the Jews because the Germans listen to me and they respect me.

Q: Do you think he just went a little too far with the Germans?

A: He went a little too far.

Q: He was a little too resistant?

A: Well, he tried because he saw that they respected him so certain times he went a little too far.

He was not a person that we call it like a Jew-boy. He always had his pride and for the Germans, he was not good. If you read the book, you will see a lot of things that I gave examples of what he did. It was a little too much so he died.

Q: When you were part of the Polish army you were able to go to Auschwitz and you found those photos of Anderman?

A: Yeah, well I didn't found it in this time. Later, a few years later, usually --. No, the photos of Anderman I had because I save them. This is one photo, I think from the thirties and one what I had when he built the new house was few years, a year before the war.

Q: Sitting outside the house?

A: Sitting outside the house, I have it. Then I got a photo of his son. His wife gave me the photo when she was here. Now his photos from Auschwitz, now usually the Germans didn't make mug shots from prisoners. They had millions and millions, I don't know what they did, : Now the people who were selected to be, to go the gas chambers. As you know, about 85% right away went to the gas chambers; about 15% they went to the camp. So the people who went to the gas chambers didn't get the tattoos. Only the people who went to the right or to the left like they had the selection. But very few, Anderman naturally was not -- all the Kolbuszowa were not gassed right away. This time, there were no transports to Auschwitz.

This was a camp where they took mostly Polish people were in the underground or were in the black market. Jews who were called for one reason or another, like the Judenrat. So they didn't have selections; they were in the camp, some a week, some, some were two weeks. Because he was doctor, and because he was an important person, they made him mug shots. This is the first time I saw that somebody got out. The mug shots that I got out about ten years later, about ten years from Anderman. They kept Anderman, for this I have the number and the triangles because they have two kinds of triangles. Jews have always had triangles, if he was a criminal

or political, the Jews usually had two. They had political and Jews so the triangle made like a myogen David. So one was a red one which was a certain other transgressions and the other one was the yellow, the yellow was for Jews. So I got later from Auschwitz.

Q: What was his, do you know? What triangles did he have? Do you know the colors?

A: Usually Jews had red and blue. One was political and one was Jewish. On this, it's black and one, so I don't know. But this is probably what Jews had.

Q: Once he was deported, you never heard from him again?

A: Once he was taken to Czechowice. He was in Czechowice about two weeks. When he was in Czechowice together with the other people from Kolbuszowa; this time they arrested not only in Kolbuszowa they arrested in other towns from the section where Czechowice was the head town. We used to come to one place every week with packages for them because there was one of the guards that he could be bribed. We gave him money and he took the packages with letters for them. If they arrived, I don't know. Because I had a pass to go out from the ghetto, I told you I went two, three times to buy, to bring the stuff, so I was the one who brought over the packages. We met in one place and there I met people from all other towns from around us.

Everybody did the same thing. They brought the packages and later this German, somebody came. They took the packages, they got paid and he supposedly gave them the food. But we never found out because he never brought back letters. We send them letters. He could take the money, take the food -- but so long as there was hope, everybody sent them. I think once they came in, that they brought back letters. He was there about ten days or two weeks. After two weeks they send both to Auschwitz. In Auschwitz, after a few weeks, I think after two weeks, the telegrams started to come.

Q: Did you know what his said, his telegram?

A: I don't know because his telegram didn't arrive because there was nobody to send a telegram.

Q: Because his wife and son had left?

A: His wife disappeared. They disappeared the day he was arrested. But the other people, the telegrams came and I saw the telegrams. Mostly the telegram says that we want to let you know that your husband, this and this day, he died of cancer or he died on lung failure, TB. She had to sign that he suffered from TB. Then some they were killed while trying to escape. But this was not --.

Q: You suspect he was gassed at Auschwitz versus being executed?

A: No, they were all gassed, they were all gassed. But in the beginning, we don't know because this was in 1941. This was towards --.

Q: They were still building the crematorium?

A: They were still building it, so I don't know if this were gas or executed, we don't know. I would suspect that there was one --. The crematorium was already there. But the gas chambers I don't think were there. I never looked into it but I should have because after the war I was on

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection the commission. There was a commission that studied the crimes for the Germans. I was a member of this commission which was headed by Hewlett Johnson (?). He was the Dean of Canterbury. {You have photos of him, don't you Norman?} Yes, I have photos of him. The Archbishop of Canterbury and he was the head. The members of this commission were professors of universities from all over the world. There was an American, a Russian and I was sent from the Polish government. There were two delegates from the Polish government. I was one and the other one was, his name was Meega. But his name was not Meega, he was a lawyer from Cracow, his name was Dissenfeld. Later he lived in England. He was a lawyer before the war.

Q: A Jew?

A: A Jew, yeah, distant. But then he masqueraded as a non-Jew. His name, he changed it to Meega. We were both sent but we were sent as members to this commissions, from the secret police. Because they wanted to know what contacts they had, this delegation. They didn't trust nobody. So this Hewlett Johnson who was quote a "Red Dean" because he was very pro- communism. He was archbishop. They wanted to know what connections he had with the Polish underground, with all those things. We were sent and officially we were members of the Polish delegation but our mission was completely different. This Hewlett Johnson, the reason they called him the "Red Dean" was because when it was the Korean War, he went to Korea and he wrote how the Americans behaved and what the Americans are doing, very pro-communist.

Then later I wanted to go and I went over to one commentator and wanted to tell him how he was misled. How we arranged his meetings with the Polish peasants, with the Polish patriots so that everything was such officially done and everything was lies. That the government did it just to show him. Then later, he said to me, listen they won't bother you, don't start because you came over here. They will ask you how you know those things and --. So I let it go. I went, his last name, his name Barry Gray. He was a very outspoken commentator, I went to him. He said to me, you come over here, you had so much trouble. Don't go into more trouble.

I could find out from Auschwitz in the beginning everything because I was the authority but there were so many things. The war was still going on that this was secondary to --. But I made pictures in Auschwitz, I have the pictures still today. You don't have all because we didn't come yet to those pictures. This is -- I made a list, the pictures that I gave you. Is supposed to be 150 but actually it was 153 because some were made A.B.C.

Q: That's right.

Q: So this is Anderman. Taken in --. I have the date but I don't know if you want to have the date for the picture, no?

Q: No. Just need their birth dated, approximately.

Q: Birth dates I don't know. Let's see, if they were three and a half years old and it was "38, deg39, 40, 41. They were born in the second half of "38, both of them. I don't remember the dates.

Q: They're the same age?

A: They're the same age, yeah. The difference was in about a month, I think. Now she was older, her name was Blimcha.

Q: B-l-i-m-i-c-a?

A: B-I-i-m-c-i-a.. You got it? Blimcia. Lische, L-i-s-c-h-e.

Q: Her father was Moshe?

A: The father? No. The father was Shayadovid; the mother was my second sister, Malcia, M-a-l-c- i-a, Malcia. This was Blimcia. The other's names was Henoch, H-e-n-o-c-h, Kornfeld. You know how to spell Kornfeld. His father's name was Moses, Moshe, we called him Moshe. His mother's name was my third sister Lieba. How you spell Lieba?

Q: L-i-e-b-a? L-e-i. I guess for Lieba.

A: L-i-e-b-a. {Just L-i, some people could read it Lyba. So it's better L-i-e that's Leeba.} So Lieba and my second sister, born the same. Oh, you have the machine going? good.

Q: Yes.

A: Now, there were, what I can tell you. They are beautiful, they were beautiful children. Will you mark down to send me the map?

Q: Yes.

A: Copy of map. Now you can make two, three, maybe I will need it. They were beautiful children, happy children, playing around like children did. What the question? You want to ask if --?

Q: Were they religious families?

A: Very religious, very religious.

Q: Hasidic?

A: Hasidic, yeah. Like Lische who was a grandson from a very famous dynastic rabbi which is not important which one it is. Kornfeld was a graduate of the Yeshiva Hach Lublim. We spoke about it before, the Yeshiva Hach Lublim. We changed there but I think --. How did you mark down?

Q: H Yeshiva.

A: Is wrong, should be Yeshiva Hach Lublim. You will remember, Yeshiva Lublim. It means the Yeshiva of the Smart ones of Lublim {The wise men}. The wise men of Lublim. Mark down that this is the correct for Kalman.

Q: Okay.

A: You have it there? If you mark down, it doesn't get lost?

Q: No, I'm very good about this.

A: Good, so you correct it because now it's wrong there Hach Yeshiva Lublim, it's wrong.

Yeshiva Hach Lublim. So he was a graduate of this yeshiva and he was religious.

Q; What did they do for work?

A: Okay. Lische Shadovid had a wholesale flour business. This was my father gave him over part of our store. When he came in, he was never a businessman so he took a part of the store, flour, and he used to sell to stores and to bakeries, the flour. Moshe had a wholesale of textiles, mostly crude textile for underwear.

Q: Was this also set up by your father?

A: Yes. All through my father, yes. He was always -- my father bought them houses and he set them up in business. Now what else would you like to know?

Q: Did they have brothers and sisters?

A: Yes. Blimcia had one sister, a year and a half younger and her name was Dobcher, D-o-b-c-i-a.

Q: One and a half years younger?

A: One and a half years younger, she was killed when she was two. I think two years younger.

Henoch had a brother the same age, one and a half years younger, his name was Yussel. Moshe, you know the business. They were with us together in ghetto. They lived together in one apartment, consisting of two rooms. In the ghetto, Shadovid was a member of the Judenrat and then later he was sent away.

Q: After being arrested, he was sent away with Anderman?

A: No, he was not arrested because he was away.

Q: He was away? that's right.

A: He was away; for this reason he was not arrested to be sent away. Then later when he came back, Fathering said to accept him. Moshe worked like everyday jobs what they sent out people to work. Nothing --. {Slave work}. The children played in the ghetto, they had games like children games. But one, an exceptional game , which I want you should put it in, which this is very important. The Henoch, he was like the ringleader, was very smart for his age. When he lived before we went to the ghetto, we lived not far from the German police. We knew the German commandants of the police. Everybody knew them. One was good, one was bad, one was worse. There was one man, his names was Harenbeer. Habier is H-a-b-i-e-r. He had a face like very, very like a bulldog. His face was not really a human face and he was very vicious.

He killed a lot of people. The children knew about it and their game in ghetto was that this Henoch and Blimcia took together a few other children. Henoch stood in front of them and he spoke to them German because he heard about it. He used to ask them, he had in his hand a piece of wood pretending this is a rifle.

Q: The German he spoke was just what he heard?

A: What he heard, how could he speak real German. He said Bist Du Juden? That means are you a Jew? To the children. Now this was a game and children answered Yavol, yes that we are Jews. He said, . Because you are a Jew, you are dead. He took the rifle and started to pretend, poof, poof, one after the other. After he pointed the rifle, he said poof, they fell down, pretending they are dead. This was their game. It shows you that the time the children of three and three and a half years had those games. Every time. the same game, got together, he was the policeman. Yeah, also when he said, first introduced himself when he got the job. He said, Ich ben Habier, he didn't know the Habier. He said he heard it so he said I am Habier. Bist Du Juden and this was the game. I think because they had such beautiful children, I think a picture like this with this story --. They were sent in July, 1942, they were sent with their families to Belzec death camps.

Q: Right from --?

A: No, from Kolbuszowa, everybody was sent to Czechowice. But in Czechowice they were there about a week or two weeks. Because what they did, the gathered the people from all the small towns in one place. They wanted to have in one place.

Q: They liquidated your ghetto?

A: They liquidated mine. Then once they had them in Czechowice, then they made big transports.

They made five transports. With the first transport, I have the date, they were sent to Belzec, this was July 7. They were sent to Belzec, together, in this day they send out 12,000 Jews. Six were killed in a nearby forest by Glowkoff G-l-o-w------ Well, I described this in the book.

They sent 6,000 elderly were killed in prepared ditches and the rest were sent to Belzec.

Q: So, 6,000 were killed at Glowkoff and another 6,000 deported?

A: Deported to Belzec, yes. But at this time --.

Q: And they were deported, these children?

A: Together with -- yeah. Because only elderly and crippled were killed in Glowkoff. In this time, they were so busy with the transport in July that they had to wait sometimes three, four days in the cattle cars till it was processed this arrival. Sometimes they waited two, three days.

Q: Once at Belzec, they would sit?

A: They would sit there on the railroad tracks. A lot of times this was in the summer, there were ten carloads. There were French cars, cattle cars and they were made out of heavy tin. The heat without water; sometimes they opened the doors, half of them were dead. They had to wait sometimes two, three days till there was place to process them in, to take them down to undress and to gas them and then later to cremate them. Well, actually in the beginning, they were not cremated. There were ditches which they filled the ditches, this was near the Russian border, so there were ditches made, anti-tank ditches. I have a complete description because when I went there, I arrested one of the engineers.

Q: Do you remember like what color hair and eyes they had?

A: Oh, yes, sure. Blimcia, she looked like an angel. She had light blonde curly hair, all curls. Her eyes were watery blue. You know sometimes somebody has blue and they are like watered down, very, very bright, light blue. And always had a face, she was chubby, had a face always smiled. Like she smiles in this picture. Now Henoch, his hair was darker. It was a dark blond hair and dark eyes. He had a more olive complexion and he was always more serious than Blimcia. She was always happier than -- so this was --. {How about some chocolate to stick in your mouth?}

Q: Just --.

A: I don't know if I should describe Henoch's brother. {You're not writing about him. Just the name is enough. }

Q: What do you remember about how your sisters were with these two children?

A: What do you mean?

Q: I don't know, anything special about the way they treated them.

A: They treated them like a mother treats a child. They were crazy about them. Not only for them.

You see, those children, they didn't have one mother. They had five, six mothers because my grandmother was --. They were more in my house than they were in their house because we lived not far. Blimcia's girls, their house was next to our house so a whole day she was by us.

She ate by us, she went home to eat, to sleep. The other one also, they were more home. All my sisters, the other sisters considered them our children. Special with me, I was the closest with them.

Q: Because you were the youngest?

A: No, not only the youngest. I was the one, especially in the war, that I used to go around in different towns for merchandise. Every time I came, there was not a time that I shouldn't bring something special for them. If it was candy, fruit about the first cherries, the first apples, the first pears -- every time if I could only buy a few, it was for them. It was also, that we always laughed, that they knew that I am away in another town and I have to come back. Usually I came back on a bicycle; they always used to wait. By Jews there is a saying when you mention Sabbath, you always say Shabot Kordish. It means the Holy Sabbath. She heard the Shabot Kordish, there was another expression that when children came to their grandparents or to their aunt, every Saturday they came for Sabbath fruit. They gave them a treat. They used to come in and they used to say Shabbos Optz. Optz means in Jewish, fruit. They used to give to ess Shabbos Optz to get something. When they waited for me to bring something, somebody mentioned oh you waiting for him because he's going to bring you Shabbos Optz. This girl she remembered something but she didn't remember exactly so when I came in, so she came to me and she said if I brought her Shabbos Kordish. It means the Holy Sabbath because she didn't remember the expression. Since then she knew every time I came so both of them wait and they say give me the Shabbos Kordish, it means the Sabbath fruit, the Holy Sabbath. But everything for us, we had something. Naturally they were the first one because we were a very close family and the children from my sisters, were our children, were the same thing. It didn't make a difference who the mother was, her mother, his mother loved us as much as her, and her

mother loved her --so it's always the same. If my mother in the ghetto, if she had something, if I brought her something special or something, they were the first one to have it. | remember we once received a package from Turkey. In the package was a salami, a Swiss cheese and a package of chocolate. All kinds of goodies that we didn't have it in ghetto. My mother, naturally took it, it was something, she divided it in small pieces and they were the first ones to get it. Later when I came to America so I asked my brother, we got once in ghetto a package from Turkey, did you send it? He said I didn't send it but there was once an ad in the paper that said when you pay in fifteen dollars, a Turkey company will send to any place in German- occupied Europe, a package. So he went, he sent in $15.

Q: This was your brother in Palestine?

A: No, my brother in America. He sent in the $15 and we got it. It was the highlight in the ghetto

to get a package for those things. A box of margarine, a box of crackers, a box of tea, coffee.

Then I asked him how many packages did you send in? He said once. I asked why once, we got it. He said why didn't you send it every day. Yes, he could afford it. Every day, send in $15. He said well I didn't get a receipt that you received it. I said, how could you get a receipt?

We were in the ghetto. But to take a chance, maybe 99% it will get lost but 1% it will come in, why not? So -- it was late. I remember when we got those goodies, my mother divided and every day they came and they got the piece of cheese, they got a piece of salami. We were very, very, very close and naturally the children were everything. For this reason, now I have grandchildren their age. I look at the grandchildren and I see those children and how those children were undressed. The mother had to take them in to a gas chamber. They had to be killed being two and three and a half years old. The mind cannot absorb it. We cannot talk about it because there are no words to talk about it a million and a half children.

Those were such beautiful, beautiful children. They didn't ask nothing from the world, they only wanted to be alive. Naturally they didn't realize what's going on. This is how they went.

I think that f you will write about them, you'll put them both together not separate because they were -- they lived together -- they were the same age, they lived in the same house. Everything I remember when they came to our house in the ghetto, they always came together. They were beautiful, they were nice dressed and --.

Q: They lived apart from you in the ghetto, otherwise?

A: They lived, before the war, this Blimcia lived next door to us because my father bought them a house next door to us. He lived away, I would say about 200 meters. During the day, he came over. During the ghetto we lived on this street, we lived far away, maybe 100 meters. Only they had to go all the way to us. So they were by us practically every day, all day.

Q: When they were deported to Belzec, they were with their mothers?

A: Yeah, with the mothers.

Q: And who else?

A: They were with their mothers and fathers.

Q: And fathers?

A: And fathers, the whole family was deported together. You see, when you get a transport like this with children like this and special to tell the story, their game. They didn't play ring-a- round-the-roses or something picking up flowers. In their mind this was something important.

This Habier went out and he killed Jews. They turned around in a game. I witnessed a few times, I was standing there, I couldn't grasp it. He tells and he imitates this German, he said when you are Jewish you are dead. Everybody knows that when he makes poof, they fall down.

Q: Do you think they ever saw that?

A: No, no, they just heard talking about. They heard talkings that Habier killed today a Jew. They didn't see it no, but they heard talking about it.

Q: This was the German police?

A: This was the German police. He was like a meister, like a sergeant with the German police.

Especially he was in this time, a very vicious man. He always walked around with his face, he always had a big German shepherd on the leash. Because mostly German police had German shepherds.

Q: Did he work with Tarnoff?

A: What? Tradon. Tradon, no. Because when Tradon --, well he worked, he was the police. But then later he was transferred. When the ghetto was there, he wasn't there anymore. This was before the ghetto. They were transferred, you know. There was a other guy who worked with Tradon, I describe it in the book, his name was Smicher. This is the one who came to beat up my brother and then later he took him out from jail. Then later -- so he was also there. It was special certain German policemen that they were exceptional vicious. They were known for their viciousness. There were some who were nice. Nice, it doesn't mean that if they would catch you without a band on the street, that they wouldn't arrest you or shoot you. But they didn't go out of their way to do more harm than they were supposed to do. There were a few.

There was even one I also described in the book, that one who was also a sergeant, a meister.

He used to go for vacation home and he always used to bring stuff that my brother asked him to bring like saccharin and other things which was illegal but he brought it and my brother bought it by him. He made money and my brother made money. Now this is the one, he told us to go with the transport the first day. Because he said, we don't control, the Gestapo controls it and you never know when the Gestapo changes from one day to another. We went with the first day with the transportation. So we had Blimcia, who else did we have to have there?

Q: When was his birthday, approximately?

A: My father was born 1882 in a village called Dubas, D-u-b-a-s.

Q: In Poland?

A: Poland, this was five kilometers from Kolbuszowa. His father whose name was Naftali, I am named after him, was the manager of a very big estate of the whole village because the village belonged to our men. It so happened that the owner was Jewish too. Want his name?

Q: No, no.

A: Now my father when he was a teenager, my grandfather sent him to Kolbuszowa to study in the yeshiva. He remained there and married my mother when he was 18 years old.

Q: Was it an arranged marriage, do you know?

A: Yes. Every marriage was an arranged marriage. He remained in that town. His own brothers and sisters, seven brothers and sisters came to America before the turn of the century. We even made now a gathering of the 100" anniversary of the family coming over. He was the only one who didn't go because he was so religious.

Q: Where was he within the brothers and sisters? Was he one of the older --?

A: He was the second from the youngest.

Q: Were they well off?

A: No, no. He was a manager in a village so he had enough to eat and everything. In the second book, I'm writing everything about this family, the whole life. Now he married my mother and he started a business in Kolbuszowa. The First War ruined, he went away. Then he came back, they started again and in 1919 was a pogrom.

Q: He fought in the Austrian-Hungarian army?

A: He went but the Jews didn't fight. They had a regiment that the Jews with beards that usually they had guards, guarded trains. He wasn't long, he came out because he had a lot of children so after a short while he came back. He was, I think, in the army only six months.

Q: Was it called the Austrian-Hungarian army or --?

A: Austrian army, Austrian-Hungarian army. Then later was the pogrom, then later --.

Q: That was in 192 _?

A: May 6, 1919. I cannot forget May 6 because I was born May 6, about a year later.

Q: They managed to get out before the pogrom?

A: So_.

Q: They managed to leave the town before the pogrom?

A: No, no, he was in the pogrom.

Q: He was?

A: They were hiding. They went to a Polish acquaintance that she board by us so that when the pogrom started, they ran away with the children. They were there three days hiding in the attic until the pogrom finished and then they came back. But later he started again the business and

he started to become successful. Little by little he enlarged and he became a wholesaler. Then in "20, I was born so he had nine children. When I was born, my oldest brother left for America.

Q: It's amazing.

A: He was devoted, he was a Hasidic. He was a follower of the Rabbi and he was involved in everything what went down, in Jewish and non-Jewish organizations. He always was in the middle of everything. He was very active, for a while he was a member of the Jewish Council and he was also deputy mayor of the town which a Jew could never be the mayor.

Q: Why wasn't he part of the Judenrat?

A: My father?

Q: Yeah.

A: Well, he wasn't part of -- first thing he was a Jew with a long beard.

Q: And Anderman didn't want him then?

A: And Anderman didn't want him. They took my brother didn't have a beard. You see a Jew with a long beard was like a red cloth towards a bull. So he didn't take those people. Now before the war, older people like my father were the leaders but Anderman wouldn't accept him. He didn't have in his Judenrat one man with a beard. He was successful in business, every time better and better. More details about the business, about conditions I'm writing this out of the book. When the war started, we lived in our house then later we went to the ghetto. In the ghetto, in the 18" of April, the Gestapo came in and they had a list of 20 Jews because there were 2,000 and they said they going to kill one percent. But the end was they killed 22 Jews.

One of them, my father was on the list. They killed him while we were in our house and the details are in the book.

Q: Yeah, I know this.

A: Yeah but the significance of him being killed is that before they shot him five times, the last time, his last words were (END OF SIDE B, TAPE 1) (ON THIS TAPE 2 WIFE IS PRIMARY ONE BEING INTERVIEWED. HUSBAND'S WORDS ARE IN BRACES.)

A: My father was born in Delatyne. D-e-l-a-t-y-n-e in P , eastern Poland. {This is the same section where this other guy from __.} Almost, but this is eastern Poland. In November, in 1895. He attended agricultural school and also yeshivoth so he was very knowledgeable in Judaic studies and secular studies. His hobby was a painter. As a matter of fact this saved him when he was in the Austrian army. When they drafted him, he used to caligraph to write, to make all the posters. {Not a painter of rooms but --}.

Q: Calligrapher or artist?

A: Artist, this even saved him when he was drafted to the Austrian army that he was assigned to prepare posters or to paint posters and what else they had, proclamations, whatever. {I have beautiful pictures from the three brothers what they were taken to the army. I think I showed you.}. Then we went into the lumber business.

Q: After he got back from the army?

A: Did I tell you that he was Dovid Mendel? Or I didn't say it, just my father, how did I start?

Q: I just have David Petranker.

A: Yeah, he was actually named David Mendel Petranker.

Q: M-e-n-d-e-l?

A: Yes. But he was known as David Petranker. But when he signed he had to use it. In the lumber business and when he married Freida Ginga Petranker, he settled in S and worked in lumber business.

Q: Did he work for a private --?

A: With my grandfather, now they have their private business until I think, "37 or "36 when he became the vice-director of --. {In 1937, all the forests in this section were nationalized}. By the government. {By the government. So when they were nationalized and they created a Ministry of the Forestry.}. My father was a Jew, so he couldn't become the director. { Because he was a Jew, he couldn't be head of the Ministry of the Forestry so he became the assistant.

They picked out some figurehead, so he should be --}. This that they write in the book who helped me in the war very much. He was the director, my father was the vice-director. {He was his assistant of the Ministry of Forestry because he was a Jew but this was a very high position. Besides this he had his own business too.}. He was an ardent Zionist, Hash _, like a movement you know, that they believed in Hebrew and they studied Hebrew and wanted to make sure that his daughters, you can see that he adored us. He was a very devoted father -- that we got the proper Jewish as well as secular education. When the Russians occupied our town in 1939, I think it was the end of September, something, end of September, he was demoted from his job. He had to work as a laborer, physical worker in scrap iron. Then thanks to an acquaintance, he got a job in a chemical laboratory, analyzing _; you know they used to use it for heat. Peat, yes. The Russians so this is how he worked. When the Germans came in -- I don't want what we went through, it was very hard because the is not very important what we went through. When the Germans came, he was assigned as slave laborer to work on the railroad and in 1942, in October, they took -- gathered or took all the laborers who worked outside the ghetto, also in the railroad authority and they shipped them all to Belzec. On the way, on the way to Belzec, he jumped. You can even describe how he pried the boards of the floor of the cattle car with his hands, no tool nothing and he jumped out of the running cattle car. Only one girl, age 17 from Kolamia joined him. The rest I guess, they didn't want to separate. They jumped and successfully reached a peasant house on the outskirts of Halech.

Again I was sitting there, this terrible, I was one hour walking distance and my father knew I am alive and then he went for me in ghetto. Reached a Ukrainian peasant's house who gladly employed them as field hands because her husband was in the army in Russia and she needed.

But my father didn't see me at the transport, didn't see his daughter Amaria, who's still -- you must put those people in, his daughter Amaria who was the last survivor of the whole family in the transport.

Q: Which transport?

A: To Belzec.

Q: The one he was on?

A: Yeah, because they took fresh from the ghetto. Then they brought from the working places wherever there are slave workers, they gathered together and they loaded on the cattle car. He didn't see me. I don't want to go there because we had an agreement in case we are separated, it's all in the book.

Q: Right, I remember.

Q: But what I -- what you write. Although he found safe haven, he decided to go to the train and to go back to the ghetto to look for his daughter which meant death sentence if he would be caught. On the train, an Ukrainian architect who bought lumber from him and befriended him - - I'm sorry this was an Ukrainian. I can't help if people write what they want. Who befriended him, pointed him out to the Gestapo because in each train was a German police and Gestapo, pointed out.

Q: He knew this man before, dealt with him in business?

A: He used to come, dealt business, used to come for tea to our house. We were very friendly. I know the name too, I don't want to use because it was told to me later. Pointed out to me later.

{Why don't you use the name?} Isuzan Wizy.

Q: I don't know how to spell that.

A: L-y-s-y-j.

Q: L-y-s-y-j? Okay.

A: Pointed him out and he was taken back to Steinswadoff to the Rudolph's Mill, this is flour mill, Rudolph's which was a gathering place for the Jews who were supposed to be sent to Belzec.

You know the gathering place?

Q: Yes. And so they waited in a warehouse there?

A: And then they were shot, yes. Without food, without nothing.

Q: He was shot at the mill?

A: Yes, he was shot at the mill. So you see this is supposed to be told because first of all, the devotion of the parent, to show even if you're safe, the irony of fate is that I was just one hour walking distance from where he was.

Q: Mundich had found you?

A: Mundich told me. Everybody told me that something they caught a Jew, like here somebody would catch a killer or G-d knows what. You caught a Jew and what happen. My father was just one hour walking distance. I don't know that he is there and he didn't know where I am.

He thought I am in the ghetto and I thought that he was sent to Belzec, I didn't know. He told me that he would get in touch with me, within three weeks if he managed to get off the train. I didn't hear from him so I assumed that he is dead. Therefore I let myself be persuaded by the car ride to go to his house. So when this happened he heard about it, Mundich, but he didn't want to tell me until after months later, what happened to my father. By the way, the girl who jumped with him, survived. Mundich told me. She was by the peasant's house and then she let herself be caught as non-Jew to a slave labor and she survived in Austria because she got in touch with this Mundich. Told Mundich the whole story. Also she needed somebody like I needed somebody, when you are masquerading as a gentile After all you have to have family, to get some mail. So Mundich used to write to her. He just doesn't know when the war ended, what happened to her. But he told me he used to get letters from her from Vienna. This is the story. I think it is very important, devotion, courage, no nothing to be packed like sardines; to be able to pry the boards; to jump out of a running -- any train to jump. The point is that you only have slightly bruised knees. The girl was not harmed at all.

Q: Did he break through the bottom of the train, do you know?

A: {They didn't jump, they didn't jump. What they did, the train has a floor. The floor are grooved boards so he pulled out two boards. While the train was running, what they did, they let themselves down, through and between the wheels and the train went and they were not touched.} I mean he had only the height, the bruised knees I was told and the girl not at all. I think a story like this again, it's unusual, hair-raising, courage and devotion should be told. It's not only because he's my father but this should be told the same thing about my sister.

Q: What was his father's business? He was in the lumber business?

A: No, no. Before the First World War, my father was from a very wealthy family. He used to have forests and they used to have mills. During the First World War --.

Q: Lumber mills?

A: Yes. During the First World War, it burnt down. They remained only with an inn and a grocery store. This what remained and they were not anymore so rich. The point is also that his mother used to say always you see, material things you have, you can lose. She believe very much in giving education to her children and all her children got education. This is why my father too, he say, I prepare dowry for you, he had hard realty but I don't know if he would if he would also foresee if I would be able to take advantage. So let me give my daughters the best education that I can because with this they will be able always to make a living. This why, do don't forget, this is from kindergarten, he paid --.

Q: How many Jews, did you go to private school? to primary? to kindergarten?

A: No, I didn't. Then secondary school gymnasium was very expensive and he had three daughters

only one year apart. He sent us all to all this and don't forget that the earning possibilities in Poland were not the same like in the United States. To be able to afford it, means that he had to deny himself certain things to be able to do it. After all, he was not a millionaire, he was not the richest man, he was comfortable but not the richest, but you always have priorities. With him, priorities was education.

Q: Do you remember, did he ever paint in the house?

A: Oh, yes, this is good you told me. He make murals, he liked also to make enlarged portraits. I remember Hertzel and others and also he always liked to study. He learned French by himself.

He was an avid reader; he liked the history of in German. Actually he could quote you from the big German poets, Heine, the same way like from Talmud. Because of it, you know the Jews did not like to go to courts when they had a dispute. They rather settle among themselves.

My late father was chosen to be the judge because of his knowledge. Actually, I wrote it in the book but they took it out. I don't know why. They didn't allow me too much space in this book but he read. But this is very important. So he was chosen to be arbitrator because of his knowledge. Between the merchants, business people and the people in the lumber business.

Q: Just among Jewish merchants or --?

A: Yes, Jewish merchants. They didn't like to go to courts, also the expenses and also they didn't like to run always to the rabbi and the rabbi had like a judge. They rather settle in their own line of business, they thought they would be better understood than the other party. The two parties used to nominate, choose like a judge, it's called b___. My late father was chosen many times.

Q: He wanted to emigrate to Palestine himself?

A: He saw that there's no future for us in Poland.

Q: This was after everything was nationalized? Is that when he became --?

A: No, even before because of the anti-Semitism. He saw that {Nationalize was nothing against him because he wasn't --}. But he saw that there's no future. Therefore he planned to emigrate to Palestine at that time.. He felt that he wants to give us education and save enough money.

Because in order to go to Palestine, you needed at that time, I think, 10,000 zlotys, not per family, per person. {5,000}. Families, 10,000 and this was a lot.

Q: For a family?

A: At that time it was a lot of money. So he wants to give us education, therefore he taught us.

Made sure that we knew Hebrew and as our foreign language in gymnasium, we had a choice between French, German and English. We have chosen English so we have to prepare it, to prepare us for studies in Palestine and to emigration to Palestine. What is if you want to know , it's very unusual also about him. He didn't have any sons so you know we took from the family --. You saw the family picture, maybe you remember.

Q: Yes, he had that adopted son?

A: A boy from that family, yes. He raised us like boys. The bad part is which later turned out to be the good one, is that every Friday evening, he made us study with him after dinner. We had to study with him wintertime so called bocherash this is tracked from our sages and the , that means the sa . You know in the Bible each week is different. Imagine three girls to keep us and to study and G-d forbid if we didn't know it. In summertime when my friends used to go to the park for a walk or to the movies, we had to study with . This is also the things of the sages and the wise men. If one of us didn't know, he deprived us of allowance to go to movie. You know there was a carrot and stick; a lot of laugh, a lot of devotion, attention, strict like boys. He raised us like a Prussian officer. You know girls like it more easy. Thank G-d my mother was a very sweet, easy- going woman. With my mother we were like friends, she was also very young mother. With him, also he laughed and he bossed around four women in his house.

Q: When did you adopt this boy?

A: My parents took him in, I think, in 1935.

Q: Who was he?

A: He was my mother's kid, first cousin. His father died.

Q: Your mother's first cousin's child?

A: Yes. He died. At that time he was, I think, five years old when they took him. My father him over. His name was Manasha. The same thing, my father sent him to the Hebrew school, extra expense. extra clothing and everything. He still wanted very much a boy.

Actually this is why he had three daughters because he tried twice. Then he said the third time must be boy and it wasn't. Now between you and me, it was in his family. All the sons, all the brothers had daughters, all the sisters had sons. It's unusual but this is how it was.

My father was the second eldest or the third eldest child in his family, the second or the third.

Q: The second eldest of three?

A: No, wait a moment. How many there were. Five sons and three daughters. So he was the --.

Q: So eight children altogether?

A: Yes, I think so. At least alive, because they had some children when they died in infancy. But to my knowledge, eight and he was the second oldest.

Q: Were they a religious family, do you know?

A: My grandparents were religious, not as religious as Norman's family. As a matter of fact, surprisingly my paternal grandmother was very well educated in Judaic studies. She had done with her children the same thing what my father with us. They lived like in a summer resort. I remember when we used to come there and his brother from Germany used to come, she used to ask them questions. If somebody didn't know, she didn't hesitate to punish them by slapping their face. I remember this as a child when we went there. But the sisters went to school, the sisters used to all play mandolin, progressive. So the brothers nod their heads, progressive.

They were progressive, Jewish, traditional. I think about my father, what to think but the most important is really the episode --.

Q: How he escaped to come back to find you?

A: Devotion and also the courage. Again he didn't go like sheep to slaughter, it's very important.

{To pull out boards --} Unfortunately he gambled, he should really not gone for me. But he couldn't live with the thought.

Q: Without knowing?

A: He didn't -- how will I manage to shelter a child. He was saved by this woman, this peasant.

She didn't ask any questions. By the way, he didn't look Jewish. He was blond, green eyes.

Q: That benefited you later in a way?

A: But my father was young.

Q: In terms of having a look that didn't look Jewish, that helped you too?

A: No, my father looked less like Jewish. I had Semitic eyes don't forget. With me, really was luck that the Germans thought I'm Polish and the Poles thought I'm German but no one took me for their own, you know. My boss questioned my eyes, Semitic eyes. In college, I was always on the offensive instead of being on the defensive. You know the book when the policeman followed me and I wanted to know if he's just a womanizer or really --. He followed me to the ladies" room. Instead to shiver and to feel defeated, I jump on him, what right do you have to follow me? This is -- after all I knew who he is. This put him off! He was a police and like nothing he would have given me away. In all instances like my boss, I start to say no and to deny and to be caught and to blush, I said most probably my grandmother was Jewish. He thought it's the best joke. You know this is how I was able. We saw now a movie and I told Norman, it was very similar I acted. Which was it, Norman, the last one that we saw? Oh, you didn't the movie "Shining Through"?

Q: No, no.

A: When she acts like a spy.

Q: Right, I saw the coming attractions.

A: The same. Don't forget I didn't have any experience and I was 17, 18 but somehow my logic in this dictated me to act like it is. My father had a good chance. He had a very good command of Polish and because we didn't speak Yiddish, he didn't have the singsong like I don't have. I don't have in my Polish and I don't have in my English. This helped a lot because if you have the singsong, immediately they recognize it. Many looked not Jewish but they couldn't do it.

So please put

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