Document

CARL KNUEMANN July 11, 1989

Q: Carl, would you tell us your full name, and when you were born?

A: I was born, of course, uh...

Q: Start with your name.

A: My name is Carl--C-A-R-L--H. Kniiemann--K-N-E-U-E-M-A-N-N. Kniiemann. And I was born in Bydgoszcz, Poland. Actually, the Germans called it Bromberg. A very difficult name to spell, so...

Q: In what year?

A: Uh, 1922, 15th of November. And, of course, uh I lived there until 1932. And in November, we left Poland because my father was German citizen and businessman. We had a small factory--bakery machinery and stuff like this. Uh, so...

Q: What was it like growing up? You can look at me.

A: Yah. In Poland, actually, compared with Germany, it was a free country. I came to Germany expecting a paradise. My parents had told me that it would be like this. But it turned out that life in Poland was like living in a democracy. There was strike, there was economic hardship; and so as a child I was very much aware of it. Most of my friends were Polish boys from the streets, and so...And uh because there was strife between the German ethnic minority and the Poles. The usual fare was, you know, when we had children's dispute or so, my friends came up to me and said, "Tomorrow!" It meant actually they were mad at me; but they never came with a knife and cut my throat. I didn't expect them to either, you know.

They didn't expect to do that either. So I got really right thrown into, you know, uh ethnic problems. And you get used to it. And uh you are not missing it necessarily, but you are not getting upset about it, you know. My mother is of Hungarian, Polish, and German descent, all three. The family came from Hungary originally via Salzburg. And Frederick the Great took these Salzburg Germans into East Prussia. That's where my mother landed. And the family mixed with Polish uh persons, and so she is a completely relaxed person. My mother is just...is not getting upset about anything. But already as a child I knew when a problem came up, she stepped right in and helped solving it. She never turned her back. My father same thing. I mean, I lived...I had the luck to be guided by the example of my parents. So it dropped out of me to you know, I mean any strife and so on, I am not necessarily personal mistakes solving problems, those problems, but sometimes it better to increase the problem and make it so bad that people see it once what a foolish thing it was, and they stop it. So I was a happy child. My father was a hunter. He went fishing. He was socially quite active.

We had parties our house. Being a businessman in Poland meant actually that you had your clients invite at least once or twice a year. Once at least for a big hunt. Uh, that's why my father really kept the hunting ground to have a party opportunity to reward his customers.

My father also became honorary consul of the German Weimar Republic, so as a businessman...And he served in this function, I think, until "29 or so. And, of course, he knew about the Nazi and didn't like anything of their stuff whatsoever. Because of the foreign office in Berlin things were discussed and the officers of the foreign service, they already indicated that Hitler will take over very soon. So the message of doom, at least for my father, was quite clear. It didn't...it took one incident. My father was riding by train from Berlin to Bydgoszcz. And he, of course, used first class, and as a businessman. And another person came into his compartment--a German who traveled to Germany, too--and after the train started to move, this man opened his briefcase and took the Nazi Central Newspaper out, [the] Volkischer Beobachter. My father, seeing this...he didn't like the type of person anyhow. He looked like a reserve officer, had the bearing of a military man. He saw this, my father really angry. He took his briefcase from out of the rack and told this guy, "I don't want to share my compartment with a man who reads the Nazi paper." That's what the kind of person my father was. Because he addressed the right person. This person was actually his replacement. You know, he was on a visit to Bydgoszcz to talk to my father how he would take this over, you know. And later on, a day or two later, he met him. This guy came visiting and said, "I am Consul [Bernhard (ph)]."_ And he...Of course, it was an icy meeting; and my father was relieved of his position in a week's time. This guy had gone back to Germany and wrote up the incident in the compartment; and that really fixed my father's future for good. My father, of course, didn't need that job at all. It was really uh more bother than reward. He ran his business. But then the recession came and Poland was very hard hit.

My father was German citizen living on a passport. So the Poles said, "Mr. Kniiemann, why don't you go back to Brandenburg?" That is what Germany was called in Poland. And we got an order that our visas would not be prolonged, and that we had to leave by the end of 1932 to Germany. My father could have gone to Essen; but Berlin was the next city, really big city. And he had probably better opportunities to get a job. But he was in error. He came and he was told, "No job for you. " Because of his remark. And Hitler was not even in power then. But they already had...you know, the Nazis had already moved into strategic positions and already influenced the selection of people who could be hired or not. So my father never got a job offer. He just unemployed from 1933 to 1945.

Q: How did you survive financially?

A: He was...he was actually a veteran. But being a German national, he had actually abdicated his right for pension because "I don't go and collect from my father[land]. " That was the attitude. An idiot, of course. (Laughing) But he... finally, he was terribly sick. He had TB, open TB, and was about to die; so they admitted him to a veteran's hospital. And his pension was restored, but on a level about 50% disability. But he was really 250% disabled, really.

So he spent uh half a year in the hospital; was operated several times, of course, to no avail.

But the acute conditions were removed. My mother and my sister and I, we lived in apartment which cost as about 80% of our income. And when we came to Berlin, people didn't believe it. They thought we were criminals. Kicked out from Poland for not paying taxes, or stealing something, and so forth. I mean, the Germans to me were completely insensitive--even to the needs of their own people in a way, you know.

Q: Why did they think that you were criminals?

A: They thought I had a Polish accent. That is enough. You know, (laughing) people have funny notions. If you are Hungarian, you are necessarily a Gypsy or violin player.

Hungarians can play violins very well. Most, I guess, don't play violins. But being of Polish, being...having this title "Polak"...And I, as a child going into Berlin school, was treated as a Polak. My German was really quite good, but not perfect. I had a Polish accent and also uh didn't have the wealth of words to describe things in German. So when this happened, I sit down and really learned German. And actually better than most Germans. I really speak even today better German than most Germans. Definitely!

Q: Tell me about your school. You brought some photographs with you. Tell me about the birth certificate you have.

A: Yah. Here is my Polish birth certificate. This is a major obstacle in my whole life. When people ask me, "What are you?" I say "Polish." They say, "No, your German gives you away. You are German." And, of course, here in America I am now American citizen.

Often people say, "But you have an accent." Then I say, "Yes, I was born Polish." And they say, "No, you have a German accent." I say, "Unfortunately, I suffered from being born in Poland. Because I had to immigrate here. The quota was full, and no entry for me in this country. For long years, you know, I... So you get hit, no matter what you are. If you are different, you get it. And I learned that in Poland, even when I was born, the kids came and met this...It was not meant in a bad way, (cough) it was just the type of reaction they had when they saw something who was different from them. And it's everywhere.

Q: You have other things as well. What is that you have now?

A: This is actually my German maturation diploma, which entitles me to go to university.

Q: You want water?

A: Yah. So this took also some doing, you know. I had avoided joining Nazi Youth Organization and so forth. I had a terrible time to fake myself through to be admitted here and so forth. Of course, I had a very good Jewish doctor who gave me attestations I was the sickest kid on the block. So they got easy on me, you know. And uh besides, legal speaking, my age was a little bit too advanced to force me in it. The law actually uh spared those born before 1924. So I was born "22, and didn't encounter much trouble. But the authorities, when lL applied going to...to--let's say, college--would call, they said, "You are not member of any Nazional Socialistice (ph) organization, you know. Only we...are only interested in people who become leaders here." (Laughter) I said, "I am not very much interested being a leader, anyway." (Laughter)

Q: Show me what else. You have some photographs of you growing up. Now these would be in Poland as a young child?

A: Yah. Here, that's the height of my career! (Laughter) I always tried to climb up that tree.

(Laughing) And finally, my father helped me and took a picture. I was 2-1/2 years old. So this was taken in 1924. This was my highest point in my career. I was really proud of it. You can see the branches all debogged because I always tried again and again to climb up. You see, I'm restless. am a go-getter. (Laughing) Actually to maybe familiarize you, my father immigrated, not immigrated, this area was German under the Kaiserreich and the were interested in getting Germans in that because they wanted to, uh, discourage Poles to live there. So people wanted to expand, get a new business. My uncle had done so. He was from Essen in West Germany. And my father went to Poland--or at that time it was Germany--to beat...to learn the trade of sales representative in my uncle's firm. So, where they came from.

. My father was the 24th child, by the way. The woman had two husbands. Of course, in succession, not at the same time. Although one could think...But there was no child after him. That was the end of the line. (Laughing) But the house where my family comes from was built in 1210, and is still standing--miraculously--in Eisenberg or Poleberg (ph). And I have just met people from Eisenach, and they say, "Oh, my uncle is a neighbor of the Kniiemann family, and they lived next to this house. " Was taken by my father, I think, in 1923 or so. And these are my grandparents sitting in front. My grandfather was uh miner.

There were these many children. One could only operate the farm, so the others naturally went into the...under...into the mines. My grandfather worked there 73 years. And on the day of his retirement, he collapsed and was dead. Real great thing to have a pension waiting for you. (Laughing) And they kept it all, you know. And another distinction my family had, my father was a veteran in the first World War. Lung shrapnel hit him. My grandfather--a veteran of 1971"--the same...the same uh (laughing) injury in the Prussian front. The French were...My grandfather, the same injury. In the war with Prussia/Austria. degSo same...almost the identical. I am first one without an injury. I think I learned a lesson from the past, you know. My father said, "If you go into this war, and you get injured, you come home I beat you up like you never have been." (Laughing) First thing was, of course, he didn't want his son to stand for this Hitler. He considered Hitler simple gangster. Nothing else, you know.

He took everything and gave nothing.

Q: Tell me about...Tell me...You have one more picture there I want to show, about a school woman. And I would like you to talk about your father. Yeah, that one. Tell me about that and the photographs.

"NB: 1871. This would have been during the Franco-Prussian War.

* 1866.

A: This is...my schooling started in a gymnasium. I think this was a second year in the school. It was a normal...

Q: Tn Berlin?

A: In Berlin. Was a normal school. Was still. . it was 1934 when I entered this. I was a little late.

I was a year older, or two years older, than the rest of my...Because of my transfer from Poland, I had only Polish as a foreign language. And not French or Latin, or so. So I had to go back. Also, my German was not that great. (Pause) They found. And uh so this teacher was a Doctor [Dunmever (ph)]. A very strange occurrence. He was a hunchback. And, of course, like anyone in Germany who was considered a weakling of normal--hunchback, cross-eyed, flat feet--that was an unwanted citizen. And this man, because of his...I think, of his constants endurance of being looked at as a defective person was (sobbing) enormously kind. A person who... (sobbing)

Q: Take a minute.

A: ...you could only love. And then this broken system came in, and this man was almost destroyed. You could feel it, that he was not Jewish or anything. But he knew me--as being what I am, I presented a target for these gangsters who came in. I was defective. Well, just before this picture was taken, maybe a day or two before, our room was decorated with romantic scenes of landscape and quieting pictures. In the middle of class, suddenly two workmen come in with a great stack of pictures. And you can see these pictures here. They represent German warships, tanks, military pictures. (Laughter) We knew at that time romanticism was over. We were supposed to sit in a semi-military environment, and pay attention to the great designs of our Fiihrer. Nobody said anything, but (laughing) what else was this, you know? You could look out of the window, and maybe there was no swastika flag; but you could look in your room, classroom. Students often sleep; and when you open your eye it is quieting to see tree, a landscape, you know, pastoral scene. Now you open the window, what did you see? (Laughing) War in progress. What a change! (Laughing) You didn't have to be very intelligent to notice. So here is another class picture. That was probably three years later. Oh, it was April "38, we...I can be seen here. I was on the outside to begin with. I always (laughing) had my escape route secure automatically. But here my three other friends--we were a clique of four. We didn't belong. We all four didn't belong to the youth movement, and so forth. And uh there are some prominent people here, who actually this man was a most intelligent man I ever met. He had the first name "Carl Heinz," like I have, but he...you know, difficult task he finished in 10 minutes. We sit there three hours and couldn't solve it. His name Witzberger, of course, made him suspect to be a Jew.

And he...like Germans, they know exactly who is a Jew and who is not, you know--like Americans, they know what a Negro is and not. I mean, know people have their preoccupation in identifying people. Like this man--he [was a] young man--he was a genius, really. And he became later, after the war, the President of the East Berlin University. And actually he headed the Department of Americanism...American studies, you know. Even the communist people I know, East German government people, the record of this man was unquestioned qualified as nobody else. There was not even an idea of their head to take a communist and plug him in. Witzberger was their man. I heard some speeches of his over a shortwave radio. Of course, he catered to the communist view; but as such, he was fantastic man. The other man here is my friend--who's now, so to speak, the Cary Grant of Austria.

And he has a very peculiar situation. I was at a draft board with him during the Nazi time.

We all tried... at that time, we wanted to be drafted actually; because we could have uh avoided taking the examination to get the diploma. We would have been given this for free.

You see, going through the rigorous study...I mean, even becoming a Nazi soldier was not such a bad thing, you know. It... hadn't studied anything. I started (laughing) four weeks before. But I had two subjects, geography and biology, [in which] I was tops all through my school years. So I...English was a very hard subject. Latin...Because of my political interest, I did less and less for school but more and more for other things, so...

Q: Tell me about your biology teacher. You .... .

A: Yah, this was our class teacher actually. Classroom teacher, and here he is in full uniform.

Now this looks pretty fierce, but he was really not. He was really a very kind and educated man. Even some people had ideas he was probably looking out for little boys, because he had assistant which stayed with him in the back. And, of course, being out of view, you can always say he does this or that. Germans have a wonderful sense of unfairness. When they suspect, it's already fact. So this man was dedicated teacher, very good in his uh...I mean, very rigid schedule of instruction. We had to repeat, had to draw keyper logs and so. For me, it was nothing. I was A-1 graded. I didn't actually particular...I mean, I was not attached to this man. He was fair and harsh, you know; but fairness is almost can he everything. I mean, my favorite teacher was Dr. Hatcher, my mathematics teacher. And, of course, "36 or so he disappeared. He was Jewish; and quietly uh one day didn't come. Fortunately, he had a chance to come here. I'm not...I am still not quite sure where Dr. Hatcher is. Not the famous Dr. Hatcher. I mean, it could be. I mean, this man was a genius in his field. And as a educator, I have never seen something like that again.

Q: Talk now about your family, particularly about your father.

A: Yah. My father was, of course, very sick. And uh his friends were...we had a very close relations with one family. It was a professor of pharmacology in Berlin, Professor Wolfgang {Heumer (ph)] and his wife. They were known anti-Nazi. My father knew very influential persons, in the military, in politics. For instance, later President Heuss, my father... The main plotter against Hitler way back in already 1933, was the really mayor of Leipzig, Dr.

Goerdeler. *He was the organizer of the rebellion against Hitler. And my father, being in

> Carl Friedrich Goerdeler conspired with Johannes Popitz and Ludwig Beck to oppose Hitler. politics, he was in the supervisory commission on the Versailles Treaty. The people of Western Poland had the option to vote whether they want to be Polish or German. And there was a German ___?, they stayed at our house. One man was Dr. Goerdeler--the main conspirator at the 20th of July; and Theodor Heuss, later President of the West German Republic. "Actually, the German currency was so much devalued, this gentlemen had no money. They stayed at my family's house just living on what ever they got from ...People also felt sorry for him, you know. He had been in World War I a pilot; and to some degree, people attached some romantic ideas with this. It was the early pilot yet, got his pilot license in 1908. It was issued on a bicycle permit because (laughing) there was no form for pilot license. Actually, it came his...We had this later. My father had his old factory; and a neighbor of his was a hobby pilot and builder of aircraft out of broom sticks, by the way.

And he urged my father get into the flying business. My father did. Got his license; and when the war started, he volunteered as a pilot in the army. I mean, there was no air force or anything like here, you know. And this is a very significant point, because he had to be trained to be a soldier by his sergeant, you know. He had to learn how to walk, how to turn right, how to turn left, how to obey commanders, and so on. So this was a man with a heroic name. His name was "Coward," actually Feige which means coward in English [NB: German], you know. But Feige is a very bad name for a military man. But this guy was strict. He had a hair cut like me--no hair--and very determined, you know. So this...uh... My father--like I, like my mother...I don't know, we are naturals at making contact. I mean, I can... walk here over the street and in one block I make 5 new acquaintances, usually nice ones. (Laughing) I don't know what it takes. I personally feel I am entitled, and I should talk to everyone who doesn't want or wants to talk to me. I talk to everyone--from President Bush, Carter, and so on down to uh Mrs. Thatcher. Uh (laughing) and, you know, I always have something to say; something new, you know, because I know everything. So I knew everything in Germany, because my father was collecting what is going on in politics and so on. So soon groups formed a civilian, actually. They were businessmen and suddenly they didn't like Hitler. Because there was no business with Hitler, you know. It was only Hitler business; and all the others had to do exactly like the Fiihrer wanted it. This brought money into the scene. And, of course, any plot needs a lot of money. And my father was instrumental to...Since he was unemployed, he was not wanted to be working. So he had a wonderful job doing the plotting against Hitler.

Q: Talk...elaborate on that. How did he get involved? How did he work with Dr. Goerdeler, who is a very important figure? Talk about this.

A: You know, of course, one thing, once we came to Berlin we knew exactly there is a big problem coming up with Jewish populations. We...I mean, Professor [Heumner (ph)] was a friend of Einstein. I even had to shake Einstein the hand, I didn't know it was that jerk was. I mean, as a little boy I thought avoid people as much as you can. I was so shy, you know. No,

* Elected September 12, 1949. they say, "Boobie"--that was my nickname, Boobie--you know, and my mother calls me that to...to my greatest displeasure. And (laughing) I go in, shake hands with the professor. There were four professors, Hoimner, Einstein, I think Dr. Lindler or so, uh, biochemist. And, I mean, they were all in the medical special fields. (Laughter) I went stumbling. I knew there was somebody famous, you know. With the others, I got easier off; but I got a red head, just disappeared to the woodwork, not to be ever seen that day, you know. I had enough. Besides, there was no piece of chocolate or anything, as was usual. Of course, Professors, they always take...they sit there. Even I think (laughing) Einstein didn't carry chocolate in his pockets. I didn't get anything. But I don't remember anything really. So (laughing) he doesn't remember either. He never remember nothing. But I wasn't cross. This type of people suddenly became endangered species. And [Heumner (ph)|"s assistant for influence, Dr. Levy, and [Heumner (ph)] had gotten...[Heummner (ph)] was known as being an anti-Nazi and here Minnesota University, they had invited him to come here and teach, and he had considered it, but he talked to his assistant, Dr. Levy, and said, "Look, you go." _[Heumner (ph)] suspected correctly that this would end in this Holocaust, no doubt about it. You know, he was privy to government deliberations, you know, being sort of a FDA director. Because of this pharmaceutical institute in Berlin was acting as a screening agent for the government, to approve medication and so on. He knew when, you know, was great resentment maybe finally agree to immigrate to United States which saved his life, you know. It didn't make...{Heumner (ph)] survived all this. He was one of the first German scientist, he attended the International Pharmaceuticological Congress in Paris in 1935. He was instructed to greet the audience with "Heil Hitler," which he didn't do. (Laughter) But furthermore, he even said, "Colleagues, I have to tell you something. I come from Berlin.

From the research which I have reviewed in the last two years, I have to conclude that these tests are actually performed on living human beings." He thought he would turn the world over. Like it is in conventions, nobody listens to these damn, lousy, boring papers. So this announcement was just completely disregarded. Nobody paid any attention. The Nazis did, of course. But seeing that it was not heard, just disregarded. They were smart. They didn't do anything to [Heumner (ph)]. First, he was very famous. And punishing him, which would have been automatic for anyone else--they didn't do anything. Not only this, they bestowed on him an honorary golden party membership--which [Heumner (ph)] refused, but he had to take it. I mean, they just put it on his table and said, "Take it or leave it. You are a party member. Golden party. " He was upset. But they did something else. They appointed an administrator for his institute, who was a super Nazi, Dr. Drukrei (ph). His claim to fame was that he invented a covering wax for freckles. And this man is still alive. And this man actually beset [Heumner (ph)] like a vulture, just hacking into making his life almost unbearable. This man came through the war and this professor still and so forth. (laugh) Unbelievable, you know. He still is advertising his covering wax, Dr. Drukrei's wax, guaranteed to cover and so, this happened. Of course, Dr. Drukrei was taken like a fool by the scientific community. They knew what he was doing, what his job was. I mean {Heumner (ph)] also had an assistant who turned out to be the...He was also a very unusual man. He was a communist party member actually. [Heumner (ph)] probably didn't know it and probably wouldn't have cared one way or the other. Later this man became the leader of the liberal movement in East German, Dr. Havemann. Very famous case. He actually through a very funny incident became an anti-American. He, Havemamn, in his time at Haarmness Institute, had befriended prisoners of war, Russians, and had facilitated their escape from Germany. He was discovered. Besides, he actually was really discovered because he listen to BBC. And when he come to the Institute, he disseminated the Western news and probably Drukrei or his henchmen, they reported on Havemann. He was arrested, condemned to death, and actually there was nothing anyone could do for him. But, the Nazi authorities recognized the importance of his work, they installed a laboratory in the prison where he was held and he had to work on his projects. They were that important. And he survived the war, was liberated by the Russians, got into Berlin, was appointed President of the Cosavillan (ph) Academy. It's like the academy of sciences here. It was located in the American sector. Now, something terrible happened. These academy members had the privilege to use the armor cars in the American officers club. The general commanding the American sector, General Holley--a Texan, something like 29 years old, heavy drinker-- he meets this German Haubermann, goes to him, and said, "You, Nazi! What are you doing here?" I mean, threw him out, you know. He was drunk. Haubermann had the explicit right to be guest there... guest of honor, you know. He took it really very hard. He went up to him and said, "You will never see me again. I am an enemy of the United States from now on." And he sure...he never came to the West or anything; but he made his stand later on as a really democrat. He was arrested by the East Germans, was in imprisoned, and his family was destroyed. And you know, you run into this, and there you...I mean, I was still quite young. I understood it perfectly.

Q: Let's bring it back to the war years, to your father. Your father had left, how did he...

A: Had nothing to do, and then people came to him and there were not that many people had free time. At least, you know, my father became a courier between Budapest and this was a link to the Allies.

Q: What did he do?

A: Actually, he was a letter carrier. Yah. Actually, my sister had married to Hungary, so it was natural to go on, on, on, on visits to my sister and, uh, the main thing was that messages got across. And they got across, but uh Mr. Dulles, I think was not very, I think, not very skillful. They didn't believe that there was a possibility to get a non-Nazi group activated and probably rebel and be successful. So the American authorities never took up on this. But, you know, that's how life is you know. You cannot expect your enemy to give you full credit, you know. And, of course, Hitler sounded fiercely enough, was fiercely, and even had a chance in an American view and through some trickery he still could, with the help of Russian, of course, win, you know.

Q: Now the years where you father was acting as a courier. Where?

A: To Hungary.

Q: No--the years, the date. What years are we talking about?

A: From, actually, at least from "39 on. And actually, he knew generals. He didn't like military men in particular; because most military men, at least in Europe, are stupid--politically stupid. They cannot make up their mind to rebel. Germans never rebel. They never rebelled in the whole history. And if they rebelled, it was unsuccessful. Because the ruling class is not strong enough in determination. They are not strong enough to sustain themselves in times of disorder because the ruling class never had the full support of the people. You see the German people are a non-entity of German politics. Even nowadays, the so-called democratic parliamentary, they say, "If we don't do it, don't wait for the people. They don't do it." The tradition is just not there. A single person or single group without support goes out and tries to take over and run the show. I, having been born in Poland (laugh), don't have this tradition, you know. I suddenly realized that I am different.

Q: Talk about being different. You father was acting as a courier. What were you doing? You obviously were doing something.

A: (Laughing) I was doing what was right, namely...(laugh). I was 12 years old.

Q: In what year?

A: It was 12..."34. And censorship had been instituted all over Germany. All letters were censored by the postal authorities. I mean, uh, samples were drawn and read. So any enemy of, or anyone who wanted to immigrate or file for immigration could not use the mail. Many Jewish people had to contact people abroad just to make arrangements or beg for support for a $50 ticket, you know. It was all it cost, by the way, to come from Germany to the United States. If we went for the lowest classes, $50 did it. But it was very difficult to have. It just happened I, we lived next to a railroad station, and I'm uncurable nosey. I want to know immediately. I mean as a little boy (laugh), I wanted to know everything. Even now I have not found out many things, you know, but what was possible I finally got to it. I know the star wars secrets in the United States. I know the atomic secret. Everything came to me. I didn't have to. They offered it to me. They employed me there. I had no security clearance or nothing. They talked to me like they talked to God almighty, you know. They know that guy is okay, you know. Although they have the deepest suspicion at the same time they come to me. So I don't know what's wrong with me, but people come to me and give me their most secret secrets, you know. And afterwards they would think, "What did I do. Why him?" Because I am perfectly the safest the holder of secrets. If you are my enemy, I use it against you.

Q: In 1934, how did you use it against them? What did you do?

A: Two Czech railroads...I mean, stewards of...sleeping car stewards. Their train was, or their wagon was laid over, and they had...Berlin was full with provincial Nazis and conventions. I mean, suddenly Berlin was not a convention town or so. Maybe business going over; but political, very little. The Nazis got very active and hotel rooms were not available. So these two porters came to me. They kid, "Do you know somebody who (laughing) would rent us a room for the night? We are laid over. We cannot find shelter. " Of course, I knew it was Frau Mayer, next to us. She was married to a very presentable, respectable banker. But Herr Mayer had (laugh) syphilis. He played around with a girl when he. It was in his last. . when term had died. I knew, besides Frau Mayer, because he was retired, she was a Romanian, violin player in the ladies! orchestra in a rather shady...This was just a perfect match for these two loose Czechs. I introduced the party. It was a total match. These Czechs were anti-Nazi. Frau Maver, of course was anti-Nazi. Her husband being a syphilitic, influential banker was just like inviting, you know, a crocodile for a state dinner you know.

Mayer was out, you know. So they started rooming there. I mean I couldn't have done a better match. And then we started, I was already 12, a blooming black market business you know. Butter was short in Berlin and that and, you know, Jewish people ...I mean you had to register later, and you could only get a quarter of a pound of butter and Jews could live without butter, they got no butter. So I knew there was a market for butter or you know, whatever. I traded... had a business maybe of a thousand marks a week. And going to school and doing all this, it was wonderful (laugh) you know, being so important. And then, of course, the other thing was just, uh, bringing letters out of Germany uncensored. And these two porters were replaced by about 40, 50. And they told the other colleagues to room there and what money they could...They got about, you know, they had to get some money for carriers (laugh) because this was a capital of heads you know, because if you were caught smuggling a letter out without circumventing the Nazi's censor, it was death. Simple death, you know. Only thing you were remembered by was the announcement of the public on the wall. You have been shot yesterday morning. That was the last thing you were remembered by. So these people took a considerable risk, loss of jobs and so. But you know, I don't know what it was. Maybe 90 marks or maybe 400 marks. It depended where this letter had to go also, you know. What difficulty, what calculated risks they had to take, you know. Never was anything ever discovered, you know. Of course, I mean if you are international railroad porter, I mean, you know, everything. You know where to hide things where the authorities look for, and you had everything in line. It went like a charm. So I became very important. I mean this was almost a magic thing. I became known. And...I mean people would never have talked to a 12 year old, 13 or 14 year old, they came and said, "Do something. We need this to go through. " I didn't even look what was in it, you know. I kept the postal secrecy, but the government didn't. I knew it was death anyhow, you know, if it was discovered. It didn't mean whether they paid or didn't pay. It was necessary. So.

Q: Let's hold it there and let them change the tape.

A: Okay. TAPE #2

Q: Okay, now we are going to begin all over again. Now the tape's rolling. Pick it up. You said something during the break about you and your friends being very important as couriers in this. Talk about it.

A: And actually then uh black market providing food. There were many Jewish people living around, all...even former concentration camp persons who were released. They were arrested because they were union leaders. They were communists. They were socialists. You know, the Nazis took everything and anyone who was a potential opponent. Political opponent; not physical, but of a different opinion. That was enough. So these people were also curtailed in receiving food and so on, you know. It was not rationed yet, but there were quotas set what you could buy. And Jews were out; or they were so low...I mean, a rabbit could live on it, but not a human being. We knew enough people, so we made profit. We bought food and gave it away, because these people had no access to their own funds, and so on. There was always, we had always two, three people being overnight with us. People on the move, you know.

We didn't ask who it was or so. Very famous persons--you know, the son of...the grandson of Max Planck. And, I mean, whatever came.

Q: And you knew they were Jews.

A: Yah. You know, being in Poland, my father had very many business associates. Also, we came to Berlin even before Hitler. We were darn poor, you know. And it was of course, we had no bed. We didn't have this. We didn't have carpet. And we didn't have...We needed everything. You could have gone to whatever shop you wanted. (Laughing) No credit. No, no, no. So there was a Jewish department store--Fada(ph)--and it was a credit shop. And these people were enormously nice. They took less (laughing) less, you know, interest. And they were human beings. You know, after all, an economy has to serve people. But these Nazis or these regular, they were so charged up: "A straight German pays cash!" It was almost a demand of the political system. But it didn't quite work. Once the Jews were gone, there was no credit; and Germans were hurting. They couldn't buy what they needed. We could buy. And, course, being in Poland, in that section where we lived there was not a very great community of Jews. But Poland being a Catholic country and so on, not too sympathetic. But they didn't kill them, you know. There's a difference.

Q: Come back to Germany.

A: And in Germany. So we got into that, supporting Jewish people. And, of course, the {Heumner (ph)] family, this medical and pharmacologist, they had an unending chain of friends who needed help, help, help, help, day and night. This could have meant going to an office instead of them, you know. They... So the officials were not as rejective as they otherwise would have been. Spare them a little bit of trouble, you know. Go and see what, you know, where they could stay. Some people were illegally living in Berlin, you know. Was a great harbor for, like all big cities, they can harbor a lot of stuff which the authorities will never know, you know. Berlin had a big communist and socialist workers section and the Nazis were not too prominent in there. They avoided it. Goebbels or so, they never came openly to that section. But, uh...And ___ this today (laugh), I knew it, I knew, you just looked at people and I knew already what they needed. And then you developed this sixth sense, you, you are with them and the only thing is Do something. Don't talk. Don't talk and then, don't go into ideology. Whenever a threat exists, there is only one thing. Immediate help. And you give it all you have. Otherwise, forget it. Takes too long. Discovery is too close and it is not effective. You know, when people hurt most that is when they need help, not in 4 weeks. Not in 2 weeks.

Q: Besides food and helping with getting papers, what else did you do?

A: Oh, (laughing) everything else.

Q: What did you do?

A: It's almost...My whole life was a different life and it was just.... | mean, for instance, informing myself, being up to the minute. BBC was a big help. The French shortwave radio, Dutch, there were German transmissions. | didn't speak English too well and so, I longed to tell what is going on...what the truth is. (Laugh) I spread the truth like, I mean as openly as a dog barks and nobody, I mean, hardly ever people dared to interfere with this. They could have just said, "This man referred to a British broadcast." Death! (Laugh) I knew that there were...I never considered it. And my friends too. One, uh, one friend was the...he was Austrian, so he was sort of exempt. He was sort of permitted to be a fool. He was the strongest boy in my class, very good looking and so on, and his father had kool-aid factory I think, was artificial kind of... Jews...but it was effervescent, you know. It was a very popular drink with children and so. There was one pfennig, two pfennig--you know, half a cents, one cent. And they were really millionaires, if not billionaires. They drove an American car, and his mother was very nice looking. Even I recognized the little boy. She was just...I mean, just a fantastic woman. His father was nonchalant. His father being Austrian, and I think his attitude (laugh) toward Jews was not that sympathetic; but his son was, and his mother. And there, his uncle was a super Nazi in Austria. Really, actually during a family visit, he stood up and said, "I report you right now. " You said this and this was." But his lovely mother (laughing) ...I mean, my friend's mother, you know. (Laughing) She (laughing) physically took him and said, "If you do this, I murder you." I really thought I am cooked, because this man was a local leader of a Nazi party, Austria--even before Hitler took over. And after he took over, he was even worse.

Q: He was going to report you, specifically?

A: Yah.

Q: And he never did?

A: He... I tell you if this woman wouldn't interfered, "This close friend. You want to. . What are you doing?" She finally got him over I think. He knew what was coming if he would have done it, I tell you he would have had terror you know.

Q: Move the years forward a little bit. You have been doing all these courier things. What happened next?

A: Uh, still things got tighter and tighter. Actually then, you know, the Nazis got more obviously into pursuing the eradication of Jews. Funny thing is, only in two instances, I saw X, not right not necessarily violence per se. But I came up from school, and I never saw this uh uh SS man was pushing a lady, a woman. She was shabbily dressed. Maybe she was a poor person to begin with. She had a big ball of clothing. She rode in front of us. Completely in the middle of downtown Berlin. What was even more startling for me, this woman looked like my mother. I didn't have to be told, you know, what the Nazi's did. I knew this. And what should I do? Can't do anything! Nobody! People looked really away from this, and they were completely turned off, you know. There was not, "Give her more." That was not them.

And one other time, I was...there you feel, of course, enormous guilt. (Crying) Now I wouldn't do this. I would go. I mean here, what happens to me almost every month one time.

I see commit a crime scene. You know what I do. That's what I should have done then. But I was still too young, you know. But today, I go right in and I know how to do this, you know.

I go to the attacker so close he cannot even swing on me, at you. And one thing I have a secret weapon. My voice! I can shout like three steam locomotives. I mean, I have seen it actually--people going down to their knees. I must say, Americans are really from their youths are cuddled with sweet words, and so they are not used to this kind of voice. I mean, it's so offense and so unbearable people stop their ears. By the way, I.

Q: Let's go back.

A: Yah. The other time it was the...a group of prisoners, KZ [NB: Konzentrationslager] prisoners. They were transferred for one reason or another. I don't know. But they were running over the station on the...out of the train into the station. They were running and running. Funny, they always shouted, "We are political prisoners!" And that kind of thing.

This was a direct thing. And, of course, the Kristallnacht... That, I lived in Berlin, you know.

Q: Describe Kristallnacht.

A: Yah. It was...[ mean, the Nazi raid, you had actually tried to incense people, you know. The murder of vom Rath in Paris, you know, supposedly done by Grynszpan, you know. And it was used as a anti-Jewish; but actually, there was no anti-Jewish feeling in Berlin at this time. You know, Berlin had a pretty large Jewish community, and Jews were really liked.

They were part of Berlin. What Berlin was, is like my right arm doesn't belong to me because the arm is Jewish, you know. So I cut it off. (Sobbing) What nonsense! And people didn't buy this. But the first indication...My sister had come back from school, and she came up in our apartment screaming and crying; and saying, "What do they do to our..." They had a porcelain shop, they had little toys. And so we, as little children, went there. We had a nice relationship. And there they were banging up. My sister couldn't go out, [or] anything. Of course, I ate my dinner and I sneaked out to look. I mean, I had to see this. And sure, it was worse than I thought. You know, the owners stood in the back of the shop. There were SA men, mean, behaving like crazy, throwing the stuff in the street. It (cough) was a two-story high shop, and throwing things down. I mean, there was already need for all materials.

People couldn't get what they wanted. They have to go there and destroy it, just because they want to hurt Jews. They hurt themselves. But I went home. I listened to BBC. I got (cough) whatever background there was to get. I would say, in general, Germans--because of religious prejudice and so--by and in large are not necessary pro-Jewish. It would be nice if I could say differently. I think it's...all of it is fake. Germany and now. Germany in the past.

And for...and unfortunately, Germany, the so-called intellectual progressive of country is not behaving at all fair. You see, it's an ingrown uh feeling. They are not German citizens. And any non-German is suspect anyhow. Like I had it. I was at least partially German. So I experienced the same way. Maybe that's why I am so sensitive about this. For me, there was no reason to be believe. Jews were just another...a Jew was just another person who had German nationality and lived there for hundreds of years. But he was a Jew, not racially a German. We start with that, we can actually split up in nations of one person, you know.

Everybody...

Q: What happened as the war progressed? I know you got deeper into anti-Nazi activities. Talk about that.

A: It started already, of course. You became involved in all this. Anything I could do to damage my government, which I did not really consider as legal as my government. Anything I could do. And if it was I called known Nazis day and not until they got crazy.

Q: How do you mean, "called them"?

A: I mean, phoned. Just crank calls. You see, I am a bad boy. I mean, really bad. They really became almost insane, you know. We divided our rolls. We didn't let them sleep a minute.

(Cough) I mean, these were really big guys, you know. Show-offs, and so on.

Q: What else did you do?

A: And then, you know, it became...the war time came. I knew I didn't want to go. I mean, I had one legal reason. I was too old. I hadn't finished school. Then...but I was at the draft board, the draft record was established. And I had contacted an infection in my ear from the swimming pool. At that time, this was a hopeless case. My hearing deteriorated, and so on.

And I had flat feet. And my father had to work the roses; and they looked at me with very careful eye, and so on. And then I advised other students, my school uh uh mates, to take it easy. And I tell you, "You can get killed out there. You are not killing others--which is not a pleasant task either--but you can be the victim. And if you want to be alive, don't go there where they shoot." Many people had a different idea after discussions like that. Oh, I have to mention one of my school students. One school was shut down, and the students were divided in other schools in Berlin. And there comes a Mr. [Heyder (ph)]. I think that was the first hippie I ever encountered, you know. This man was a little older. He had...he failed one of the other class. And he was as anti-Nazi as openly as you could wish, and he had all the looks of (laughing) a non-Nazi and obstinate student. "Cause things like that cannot survive very long. But he was really clear. He was an artist, a very good one, more than artist. His collection of records was "Three Penny Opera," "In the Mood," and so on and so on. His father had died. His mother ran the business as a business consultant. Very successful. He was pretty much on his own, you know. He lived at the Kurfiirstendamm--it was prominent, like living on Broadway in the better section. And he had gotten together, first had called many, many Jewish youngsters were around him. He was tolerant actually to all things. And, of course, when he came to school he slept a lot, (laughing) and he had the wrong hair cut you know. One day, it really happened. Our classroom teacher had changed with our mathematics teacher. His son had been a victim... was killed in the war. This man had no forgiving at all for anything but straight Nazi and Vaterland. He said, "[Heyder (ph)], stand up. I have to talk to you." In front of the whole class. "Were you yesterday? Did I see a man...? Was that you with a completely silly looking jacket on?" He had a cloth jacket, you know. "Was that you?" "Yes, Dr. [Fran (ph)]."_ "Was that you who smoked a cigarette wearing this cloth jacket?" And then the worst thing came. "Was that you who had actually a female person on his arm? Was that you?" He said, "Yes, that's my future wife. " (Laughing) I tell you, this wife, she became his wife. She was maybe 5 years older. He was of German consumption 16-1/2 or 17. That's a no-no, you know. So he was reprimanded in the worst form. And, of course, [Heyder (ph)] became the hero of that class automatically.

Even the Nazi boys, they admired him for it. And he then finally married this...And he became...There was no apartment to be had. The mother didn't like this marriage at all, so he moved into my section of town. We lived, because we couldn't pay, in the worst section-- prostitution, crime, everything. And apartments were about half of what they were in West Berlin. They couldn't find anything. So he rented a store--which was never heard of, I don't think even here. And he made it sort of a artist studio, and really free for all. Everyone could come in. And he had connections to the black markets and the stores. Very easy to serve.

They stopped, carry in, out; you know, you don't have to go four flights up or down. And his wife, being a very volumptuous woman...I mean, even the anti-Nazis knew there was something to look at, at least, you know. And they were just host to everybody, you know.

And they established really a meeting point for people who were anti-Nazis. They had all these American records, British records. Bertold Brecht was played. Anything which was forbidden by the Nazis, that's where you could hear it. And over the time, even SS officers came. The strangest thing, they were so fed up by this, you know, even SS officers get tired.

And they came, and they cooperated. We got even ideas from them, you know. They were completely disillusioned, of course, because they were really prisoners of the system. And to have a day or two leave and full freedom. It was just...they could be human beings, suddenly.

And, of course, then getting false passports for people needed to get out and so forth.

Everything. And uh was a different world. I mean, it existed. Of course, the workers section, they tolerated this. They would never have told the authorities, "This bothers me, or this bothers me." They were maybe loud; but that was a noisy laughter here. (Laughing) It was anti-Nazi, you know. They would have loved to be part of it. And I tell you what it was in Germany. This murky little petit bourgeoisie-type, you know--which automatically hated Jews because they were liberal--they were open, they had new values. The whole German culture is almost Jewish culture. I mean, in culture production--songs, and so on. I mean, there is really, for me, I was neutral Germany. Whatever was, I took as being German. Not Jewish, or not that: it was German. And it is completely hidden in German history books.

Even a hundred years ago, what the participation of Jews this was. Since there was no knowledge about what this really was, to load the population into a anti-Jewish mode and make them the strangers. (Laughing) Unfortunately, they were better Germans than most Germans. You know, we had friends they just couldn't believe that they were not guests in this country. They were it, you know. And now what they wear turned against them. For reasons of a idiot coming from Austria.

Q: Talk about...During the war, I know you were drafted--or partly drafted--and then got involved in Danish resistance. Talk about that.

A: I mean, whatever resistance there was in Germany, I knew at least...I knew or could have known, or frankly, I first evaded the draft. I got diphtheria. And to restore my health, I went to Hungary. My brother-in-law is medic over there; and he extended the...But then the Nazis took over in Hungary. I knew I had to get out. So I went back to Berlin. And the minute I came to Berlin I got the draft notice. And I couldn't really avoid it. But I got sick. First I got sick. I could not follow. And then they told me I had to report for medical examination again.

They took an X-ray, and somebody there felt sorry for me. We had talked politics and he put a TB record in my record. And suddenly, the military doctor: "Mr. Kntieman, take a seat.

Do you sweat a lot?" I said, "No." I actually want to get out of Berlin; because it was almost impossible to walk the street as a young man, you know. And then it finally happened. I got a call, and nothing could help me.

Q: What do you mean?

A: I mean, to get out of it. But I also was ready to go. I had met, a half a year or so before, a Dane in a restaurant. I did know he was a Dane. He looked like anyone else. But we...I ate and he ate in a specific Nazi restaurant where you could get everything. I had enough money from and noticed the accent. "Are you from Denmark or so?" He said he was kidnapped by the SS. He had actually written on an ad in the Copenhagen newspapers, and this was a fake.

They wanted to get young Danes out of Denmark and capture them. He was given a ticket to Paris. He went to export/import business to interview. They said that "You are hired, but you have to talk to...Final interview is with the president of the company." He is led into the back room, and Jew sits there and SS General and goes over and says "Mr. Oberg, may I congratulate you for your volunteer application to the Viking Division of the SS.

Unfortunately, we have to tell you you cannot go home. You will be sent to Berlin for economics training. " What they had in mind to capture enough indigenous population, train them in business, for instance, make them sort of believer of the Nazis. And they promise them at the end of the victorious war, of course, they will be put in place and manage these industries for the SS. The SS had planned to actually establish its own economic base to draw money out of these foreign factories and finance their adventures from foreign funds. I met this man, and then I could see that was my case. Kay Oberg was his name. And he, uh...I invited him home. And his father had a delicatessen shop in Copenhagen. And he said, "Yah, Iam. I can't go now. They watch me." And so forth. We got him a false passport.

(Laughing) That was nothing. We always had it. We need it. We had it. And he came home to Denmark now. Escaped. And he had told me already about the resistance move, and that his family is in it, too. And I never thought I would need it, you know. But I was drafted; and of all places they send me was to Denmark. Since I am deaf, I was sent for wireless training.

And they went through the rolls, and they said, "What is your occupation - a student?" That was a"Yes." Because to be a morse operator...And I was deaf. They didn't ask me that.

(Laughing) And I thought I will not tell them (laughing) until I sit and fall, because I had in mind that I can go to the other sides. I came there and I faked it. I even did the qualification for morse code school and all that, you know. But I had contacted Oberg and said I am here.

And I expected actually that they would give me an address where to turn to, but it was not necessary. I came into this new company; and there was lots of Poles, ethnic Poles, and ethnic Frenchmen. And the manager of the canteen in the company was a Frenchman from Alsace-Lorraine. You know how it was, you wouldn't believe it, how you recognized each other, that you were anti-Nazi. I went into the shop. I left, and he said the same dirty laugh; and I knew exactly that was the man. You know that, nothing like in Hollywood film, code words, you know you forget code words by the way. That is a very great danger. You know, you have other things to worry about and, uh, now the code word. You are shot before you remember. But here it was just that you recognize this man at least wanted to have a life style which was yours. That you knew that yours and his were non-Nazi so that was all it took.

You could talk to these people at once without identification and so I went, after hours, to the canteen and look my desire is to do anything to damage the Nazi factory. Finally, I think I would like to go to Sweden. No problem, you know. I told him that I had connections in Berlin for weapons. I mean I could buy machine guns, anything. Like here, it's forbidden.

But actually Nazis were not that crazy. They...[ mean you could have weapons, you know.

My father had hunting weapons, I mean, very dangerous ones, you know. And, uh, since there were warriors and robbers anyhow, the old government, they didn't take it so seriously.

Besides, the Nazis really thought that they controlled everything. They had no...they didn't even have a suspicion that there was a segment of the population really going after them.

They didn't know this. I mean there was the West that they contributed...you see that they were the victims of their own philosophy. They thought Jews were the typical resistance.

There was...actually for a Jew, it was very, very difficult to be a fighter because people, officials...you looked Jews, Jewish. I don't know some Jews I know looked more, they looked more like Siegrfied, you know. But they looked for that type you know. I mean everywhere. In all countries. If they were gypsies, a chicken is stoled, and a gypsy was there a week ago, he did it. There was always a minority which can be easily recognized. Round up the usual suspect. Like in the Casablanca film, you know. If they didn't find any of them, it was, uh, Jews do it any how. But in this case here, these Frenchmen, the ethic French men, they were not trusted. But they were sent for occupation duty in Denmark. The Poles were not trusted. They were sent for occupation duty in Denmark. So, there was need for weapons and I had the military pass. My father (laugh) conveniently got sick. I went to Berlin and bought two big suitcases full of pistols. And I repeated it several times. I...you see at that time, the Nazis collected weapons from civilians, mostly weapons man had brought back as souveniers from war crimes. And these women were impressed if they would be caught by, for instance, if Russians, if they ever would come, they would be of course raped 15 times, mangled, (laugh) and all that. And these Nazi officials stood there and took the weapons in, you know, and I stood outside the collection point. I know even the place, it was Horst Wessel Platz. It was actually former headquarter of the communist party in Berlin. It had been turned into the Nazi office building and downstairs, they had the collection agency.

And I stood in front of this, in my uniform, of course. I said, "I come right from the front.

You know what we need. We need more weapons. You know the German army is not providing us with pistol, you know. When the enemy comes running up to you, you cannot use your rifle. I give you five dollars." (laugh) In 30 minutes, I had 2 big suitcases. I couldn't even carry it, but I was soldier, I was, of course, a front soldier in Denmark, eating whip cream by the gallon and so I delivered. That French man, he just gobbled it up.

Actually, these Frenchmen had full uniforms already for the loss of the war and at once established a French army unit in Denmark, out of the German army. And, of course, he had the connection with the Danish Army, and so...I went to Berlin 3 times, did this and always with the Wehrmacht train, the military train. It was never controlled. You could actually take anything you wanted. And the Danes were happy. I was happy. I brought butter to Berlin and so forth you know. And so I was never afraid really. It was...if you know, if you do it for the right cause, nothing stops you. And whenever it comes, the threat of this thing and you have your right cause, do it. Don't talk. Do it. You know, it's. . nothing is better than doing it.

Trying to abolish it. Even if this is go yet. You just throw the stone where it hurts. And you know yourself you never can, uh, uh, let this guy fall down. But you might hit where it hurts, and you are finally getting through with your message. So not that much difficulty. You see...I think human beings are too civilized. I think maybe, in part, Israel is a good example.

They do it, against all odds. It's the only country which does it, I mean in my opinion. But I think anyone can do it if he just wants it. If he sees the danger which is directly against him, what he is running into. Don't run into it. Abolish this danger. So...

Q: What else did you do besides run guns?

A: No, of course, I first provided the full secret Morse codes to the other side. And I ran it.

Actually we had our headquarters above the German headquarters in Aalborg. We used the German antenna. That way we couldn't be detected. We attached our wires on that and, you know, that was it. They came, they circled around, found a signal but it was there own...their own antenna. So that one of them. Finally, uh, uh, on the last trip I came back and my company was dissolved. So I had no organization to turn to and that was, of course, dangerous, uh, you know. And, uh, there was a way out. I figured it out. There was a central reporting point for the soldiers who had lost their unit and that was, you know, the Nazi system contrary to belief here was completely disorganized, at least in my eyes. It had so many weak points. You imagined there was no computer yet. The transfer of a name was so.

. Just impossible in a speedy fashion. Today, it's a one button, and the computer spues out whatever you want. It was a very big problem, but the other problem, they over organized.

So many things were illegal. 1 mean more than legal. Everything was illegal to keep track what violation had happened, what people, uh, were involved was almost impossible to manage. I mean, to get somebody, it's difficult everywhere. Let's say you search for a criminal, but you are not getting your hands on this man that speedily. Now you do, but then it was really very, very difficult. To be a Jew, that was a different...people had a model in front of them. It was a dark hair...certain features people thought was Jewish. My brother-in- law is Hungarian. He looks like 14 Jews. I mean, it happened, during his stay in Berlin, he was accosted by people not to wear the Jewish Star, you know.

Q: Move up a little to June 1944. You said that your father was involved in a plot?

A: My father had become so sick, he was not more involved. His T. B...actually we had relatives in Poland. . and he had rented relatives...

Q: Talk a little louder please.

A: We had relatives...my uncle from my mother's side, they lived there. Actually, my uncle was Polish officer. And, uh, because of the air raids in Berlin, his being there was almost impossible. And also the food shortage and so on. So he had rented from friends or relatives a little house with a garden. He lived there. But, of course, he knew all what was going on, you know, and actually we had two contacts. I mean it was Goerdeler and the initial plot never came off. Actually, the plotters were doing this since really 34 and, uh, uh, they never could get agreement from the generals because weapons are needed for a thing like this. And they objected, they had given the oath of office on Hitler and so forth and besides, don't kid yourself, they never make a plot successful. (laugh) Through German history, these Germans are outspoken cowards. You know they are only form...not some...nothing in them.

They are actually removed from the people, you know. It's not a people's army in Germany.

It's the king's army or the Fiihrer's army, and that was the biggest problem. And it seemed that this whole thing would never go off. So my father was at that point not in it. But the...what really brought it off...and that was Johannes Popitz, the Prussian Finance Minister.

*He was head of a sort of semi-conservative people's party before Hitler, and Hitler tried to

deg From 1925-1929, Previously advisor to Prussian Interior Ministry, 1914-1919. Known as a tax expert, his skills were utilized by the Nazis, although he never joined the party. give some unimportant government offices to non-Nazis. At least, for the first time. And he was in the state government, in the State of Prussia--which was reduced to non-functioning, really. He left this government alive, but they had nothing to do. Popitz found plenty of time to conspire. The best thing was, you know, Mrs. Popitz was a Dutch born lady. And you know who caught a fancy on her? Heinrich Himmler! She looked like a real Dutch. You know, not the most French-like; she looked a little bit more like a milk cow. She was blonde.

I mean, a wonderful personality; but Himmler was really interested in her feature, not in personality. And Himmler courted this lady day and night. Sent her big boxes, silver boxes, with inscriptions and so forth. That last until "36 and she died of cancer. Himmler was heartbroke. And he called the daughter whom I knew--and I knew the other son, Hans Popitz--and he showered this family with attention. And, of course, Popitz didn't like this at all. But you can't say no to Himmler, actually, if you want to live. So they accepted the...I later sold it on the black market, these (laughing) silver boxes, to raise cash for the family.

But they...Himmler still kept an eye on this family. And also the daughter, you know. She got gifts, too. And so on. But Popitz--who was the greatest conspirator, you know--he had put this group together and so on. And there were almost attempts. And uh in "44, Popitz got a call from his old friend, Himmler. He said, "Johannes, we know everything. We know what you are doing. Don't think that you can operate here without me knowing. But you know what that means: that you and all your conspirators are done with." You know, Himmler was the first defector from the Nazi group. And this is not known. I know it from personal knowledge. Himmler proposed to Popitz that he would tolerate the plot. That if successful, the plotters would actually guarantee Himmler and whatever entourage he wanted free exit from German into a neutral country; and that he would support any attempt of Hitler's life, as long as it successful. If it is not successful, of course, he will abdicate any responsible. And will kill everybody at once out of necessity, of course. Because if investigation would have prove that Himmler knew. But, you know, Himmler knew that Germany was cooked. I mean, no one else knew it much better than him. He knew the war is finished, over with. He knew that he is the major criminal in this game, and his only chance to survive was making a deal. And Popitz met seven times personally with Himmler. I know it from Popitz's daughter. She was even involved, too, you know. It's an awful scheme. And very dangerous, of course, for Popitz. Now they agreed on this; and that actually persuaded the military to come in. The chance that they... You see, Popitz worked on this like an eager beaver, you know. He was a very honest human man--small, low voiced, nothing. Goebbels's wrote in his diary that actually vindicated any... any accusation against Popitz. Goebbels wrote, "And this dog Hans Popitz does nothing else but conspiring against us. " Goebbels wrote this in "43. If this diary was found, you can read it. So they went ahead and failed.

Because the military didn't have it. They are not courageous enough. (Laughter) And I know Stauffenberg, and so on; and they don't know how it happened. It happened--in my opinion, of course--they were just not brutal enough. I mean, the French Revolution never happened in Germany. I mean, Germans do it...if they kill people, they cut their heads off. If it was all sealed, official stamp of approval--like the killing of the Jewish and so--this was all legal.

You know, there were laws permitting it. So they did it. But do it on your own and resist, you never get a German to do it. They are like German shepherds. Only they bite on command, and they are puppies if they are not told to bite. But unfortunately, if an outsider comes and bite, they bite you. I have been bitten by a German shepherd, and a six year old.

And I never forget it. (Laughing)

Q: We are going to hold it and we are going to change tapes. TAPE #3

Q: Okay, let's go back. You were telling me about your mother and friends and Himmler.

A: Yah. Strange relationship. My mother was, of course, sort of an angel really. She helped everybody. Now when it came to our attention or people came to us or to our friends, they needed immediate help. Something had to be done. A visa had to be gotten to exit Germany or somebody was in the KZ and maybe a case could be made to release them again. And there comes in my father's career as a pilot. As I said before, he was assigned a sergeant who trained him to become a soldier, and, uh, this man was just a sergeant, a professional soldier, and when we moved from Poland to Berlin, he worked and had risen to a pretty prominent position as a civil servant in the Veterans Administration. But my father needed to have his pension restored, so this man helped him, but this man had turned into a raving Nazi. But because as a old comrade so he overlooked the anti-Nazi attitudes of my father, and rehelped him getting his pension and so on. They met once. . and then my father discovered that he had married a wife who was born in the hometown of Mrs. Himmler's wife. And somehow, this man's name, this Veteran's Administration official, had the heroic name Feige which means in English coward. (laugh) This was really a laugh, but as they...He had indicated he wanted to meet with my parents and so on to do the right thing...became sort of acquaintances. I think my parents were there socially once. And they never came and visited us. But Feige had moved from the Veterans Administration once Hitler came in and had become Goebbels assistant. Of course, it helped to know Mrs. Himmler, that was for sure.

And, he. . he is also listed in the government publications as being Goebbels Ministerialrat, one of them. But he had influence. But we saw also a possibility to influence Himmler, because Mrs. Feige or this coward's wife, she being the school mate of Mrs. Himmler met with her once a week and both ladies played Bach on a harmonia, on a miserable harmonia, in Feige's household. And this too...I mean non-political people, they didn't care about one thing or the other...only Bach. So Bach was right. And they played for 2, 3 hours on the harmonia, and departed but, of course, like some women do they chat a lot and all this, so we could see that there was a possibility to influence Himmler and when we got really...and I mean we, that means my mother, of course...got cases where nothing would have. My mother called Mrs. Feige, and said, "I have here a terrible case, you know, once a personal acquaintance of friends of mine. Although we know these are difficult times and so on, what can we do? Can you tell Mrs. Feige his name is so and so and so and so. (laugh) Can you do something. Tell Mrs. Feige. She can tell her husband. We guarantee you this is completely justified and so on. In most cases, this worked. I mean these were not really prominent cases, but say this, but prominent people, let's say economics was enough to get killed by the Nazis. In their book it was a crime of major proportions. But Himmler wanted to keep up apparently his image like a normal man also. And, of course, his wife probably had a lot to do with this. She was probably nagging him and he conceded and then my mother got a call from the Himmler headquarters, Sicherheitshauptamt, that she was called to pick up the visa for so and so. My mother has absolutely no fear. I mean she has nerves like steel. She can sleep in the most trying circumstances, and she just went there. To go in there was a very big favor alone you know. These SS guys, they knew that Himmler had something to do with my mother's coming, got up, saluted here, and so on. And my mother looks like Mrs. zero. She does not arouse any interest. She was just about, if Himmler would let in, let's say a Jewish woman who was alive but in his mind, but already dead. That's how my mother looked. She looked completely nonentity. She got the visas. They saluted. My mother marched out. Case closed. You know, and that...I don't want to make propaganda for Himmler, but there is a side you probably would not have expected. Not everybody has connections to the wife of a dictator, but if you do, there is a chance you get somewhere. So we used to...1 1 mean some of the 20th of July people also got arrested and needed to get out, you know. My mother got them out. Jewish people or professors and so on, you know. So Mrs. [Heumner (ph)]...we got them out.

Q: You got them out through Mrs. Feige?

A: Yah, Mrs. Feige, Mrs. Himmler, and Mr. Himmler finally. I mean it is unbelievable, I mean, to me, even today. I mean I wouldn't...you know being a youngster I might have gone into the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, but anyone over 20 would not, because that was a place not to be. For no reason. And that was that. I mean, you see it takes courage and the nerve to stay on your charted course. You know a dictators really dislike enemies, but they dislike enemies who waver, you know. And actually, if you are staying on your course, they are not suspicious because you act like them almost. You see they don't waive, they don't give in on anything. And you appear as if you are ready to get what you came for and then they give you a break. I think it's the similarity of format you know.

Q: You have brought...you have got pictures here?

A: Yah, by looking through my pictures, to my astonishment I see a picture which I have never seen. Somehow it, I thought it is a friend and former colleague of my father, Mr. actually Albert Gunter. He called himself usually Albougie. (ph) It's a picture here in Szopot near Danzig, a resort, seaside resort, with his daughter and wife, a very elegant woman and a very sweet girl. But he was...he was, you know, as you can see, a typical family picture, at a summer vacation at the Baltic Sea. Uh, this man had worked in my uncle's office...in my uncle's factory as sales manager trainee, as has my father, who went out. They became friends naturally and when this area became Polish again he went to Germany and joined a company in Stettin, which produced bakery ovens, bakery equipment, and that sort of stuff.

My father kept on and off, you know, contacts and so on. When we came to Berlin, moved to Berlin, he came visiting us, you know, sort of see how we are doing, and I think it was in 35 or so, this picture is 36. He came in and I overheard the conversation, and he said, "Carl, Imagine! I got an order for I think it was 50 ovens for the concentration camp in Oranienburg, near Berlin. What do you think? Do they expect that many prisoners?" 50.

These were ovens to bake bread. At that time, it was who knows. It looks quite dim if they need that much bread, they probably get so and so many people and so actually, the existence of KZ concentration camp was known all over Germany by the way. That is simply not true what Germans say now, in my opinion at least. I knew it the first day. Why shouldn't intellectual Germans know it the second day. No, it was better not to know. But this man had some misgivings about this firm, was Kirst und Soehne, from the Sttetin, was probably the fifth or so largest producer of ovens and so on. And, after awhile, Mr. Gunter came visiting us again and they ordered even more, and he indicated that they are using these ovens to not bake bread, but to burn corpses. He was really shocked. I mean if you got news of that kind in Nazi Germany, you were really not much shocked you know. You knew they did everything imaginable, mean to people. But he was shocked, and he slightly felt responsible, I think, that he had lent his hand, maybe in the beginning, of course, not knowing what this was for. These ovens were regular baking ovens as far as I know. I mean I have seen films...I have seen films actually with the firm's label on the door of these ovens and I don't think they were modified for this new type of application so. . but, of course, knowing it, that its use to it, possibly I mean, actually, I wouldn't have gone through with it. I would have retired or something, but he went to apparently to the very last and, uh...in 44, he called on our home, apartment door. My mother was gone, my father was out of the city, and he talked to me and this man broke completely down. He said, "What have I done?" I must tell you I was not a friend to him. You know he was much older and somehow, this man was sO nervous, so super nervous, he said. . what have...and he asked me...I was what...I was 20 years old...and I was so embittered to see a man before me that I said, "Mr. Gunter, the only thing you can do...commit suicide." It was terrible for me to say it, but I knew everything.

Not from him, but from...of course, you knew everything. And for me, having somebody before me, an intelligent German man, having done this did not say no, I mean, he probably could have invented hundreds of reasons...so I was really...maybe it wouldn't have been my style...I said you have nothing else to do but commit suicide. By the way, he did. Not that I have great power of persuasion, but he felt that's the only thing you can do. Things which have been done, you lent your hand, your talent, you knew, at least along the line, that you actively supported, for me this was your death. It would have been my death. That's why I simply had a very strong commitment not in any way support this system. It was my life really because if they kill others, they kill you. Nobody has to get killed for political reasons.

And I knew if I am in it, I kill myself. I don't kill other people. I kill myself. It's everywhere like this. If you see reasons to kill, do it only then when you want to kill yourself. That is the crummiest thing you can do. So later on, my mother lived in West Germany and low and behold, she met Mrs. Gunter and her, by then, very pretty grownup daughter. I mean, she didn't know about this visit, of course. I think he never returned to her. We didn't even know that he committed suicide. Only when my mother met her in West Germany, she told us.

Q: You have other photographs and papers. Tell us about those.

A: Yah, Here, I just have had a Otto Nifert (ph). Actually was a Colonel during the Nazi time.

Prior to that he was our neighbor. He lived in the apartment in Poland below us. He was a member of parliament in Poland for the German minorities. They even had...but he was also knowingly...we found out later...that he was also a paid German Nazi agent. He received money. We found out through connections, something like 43. By that, he had already was drafted into the army...and, uh, I mean during the upheaval occupation of Poland, he had been arrested by the Polish government. They found out about this later, secretly, but later we found, he. . he survived all this...and established. . he was...had a repair business...a plumbing business...had big orders, and so was a very industrious man, but politically, he was a Germany chauvinist as you ever seen one, you know. He had...was officer in first World War. He had this typical Prussian officer's attitude. Only me, no one else! So, but he was a piano player, a very voracious man, and so, he became in Nazi Army, a Colonel, and then rose up, up, and became the last Commandant of Danzig. He finally moved out with the evacuation ships, and landed in Bonn of all places, and established a new (laugh) a new plumbing business there, also successful and all that. There must be somebody who is re- establishing these people. And, of course, his attitude toward Poles, Jews and so was that what you could expect, you know. But to know a person and you always think, all these guys, they don't come back. They don't come back. But they do. As we see now in Germany, no objection to this. Here's another case. This man used to be my law professor at Berlin. I studied 2 semesters, 43, 42 and 43 at Berlin Law School because I wiggled out of the army. I did some important work for the German armament industry, and they (laugh)...1 had to commit myself half a year to serve in the air. The equipment was such. . laboratory out of Berlin where everything the Germans had up their sleeve, was developed, evaluated and known. I sit right in the right place.

Q: Where did you send it and how?

A: What?

Q: How did you transmit the material out?

A: Uh, actually, through not direct contacts, but I had...I suspected that these people...they couldn't tell me of course, that they would put it in the right hands. I mean I became aware of the development of the V1, V2 weapons. This was, by the way, quite an open secret amongst those who knew. The other things, the Colonel who became my super...I was in personnel...1 had a very low...but personnel is a very good position to know everybody. My superior was Hauptmann Schwabel, it...was the guy from Nuremberg. Actually being a Bavarian, you could think maybe he had some leanings to the Brown movement, but he was low and behold an anti-Nazi as you could possibly get it you know. I came into the office and we sit there like little choir boys who couldn't sing you know. Everybody was thinking, is that guy anti or for? And, of course, this was the decision. This man. . his family lived in Nuremberg.

He was alone. He couldn't talk to anyone. So I came in there, and sounded to me awfully uncomfortable, and then some remarks I did and so, and he covered__ and then I took the risk, and became full fledged anti-Nazi and told him everything I heard over BBC and this man got so additive. Me telling him. He was there at 6:00 just not to miss me, you know.

And we became like this. I could find out anything. He was waiting to betray his great Fuhrer as best as he could, you know. And we had fun, you know. All these things were not done in the style of...not with me like you see it in Hollywood... two serious men talking serious stuff only. We laughed our head off. Of course, this whole thing was a big joke once you looked through this fakery and outsidish activity which was all fake, fake, fake. I mean you could have a laugh of your time. You...if it wouldn't have been for this killing and murdering, I could have laughed Hitler off and he would have been out in the rubble of history, never to be remembered. But what he really established is the unchallenged position as a most mass murder ever. Nobody has ever single handedly...I mean on a single order...killed that many. And the dumbest in this whole game are the Germans themselves.

And they still have not found out that they were the victims too, including the German Jews, including Jews everywhere, including everyone who was just not a German, you know. I mean...but the Germans paid dearly and willingly. For what reason? Only stupidly! The most intelligent people on earth are also the dumbest and why? Social organization pits one German against the other. Nothing has changed, in my opinion at least.

Here's another wonderful German. He was a coach for law students. His name is uh, uh, uh, Professor Reinhart Hohn. "He was a coach in Jena. And he...

Q: Tell me.

A: Yah, he was mentioned here in this letter (coughing) as a conduct Himmler to him. I seem to know all the people who uh have a way to get to Himmler. When I met this man, he was Professor at Berlin Law School, Berlin University. He had become party member at 32, and (cough) got the attention of Himmler through some unspecified contacts. And Himmler was looking for somebody to establish a special...a special section in the Reichssicherheitshauptamt [NB: the RSHA], in his headquarter, to establish an index to all persons who were suspect of being anti-Nazis abroad and inside Germany, or presenting a danger to the Nazi system. Of course, without saying, Jews were in it automatically. All of the Jews. And Hohn was a man who developed...which finally ended up into something like 50 million index files where all Jews in the world, all anti-Nazis, all socialist, all union members, all modern artists which did not present the ideas of art of the Fiihrer, or anything...Anyone who ever came to the attention of the authorities. By the way, the German foreign service was instrumental in this. For instance, getting the names and addresses of Jews in America. Unfortunately, unwilling, at least there was a couple of Jewish foreign service officers in the German foreign service who were advised to get address lists from synagogues. They went to their synagogues. Got the addresses there. But other Germans, they posed as Jews from Germany, (cough) obtained freely address material and send them on to Berlin. You see, otherwise it wouldn't have been possible for the Germans to know where Jews lived. Coming to Italy, coming to France, coming to Estonia, so...It was not always (cough) German agents who knew where to knock. The Germans knew before they came there where to knock. Telephone number, whatever. And this was this man's work.

And actually, he couldn't do it along. He is the man who hired Eichmann. And I think

deg See Raul Hilberg. nobody knows who hired him. Eichmann...was but us know (ph) (laughing). Eichmann was recommended to him, you know, for being a diligent worker. And this Eichmann, of course, helped; and probably he was...I never met Eichmann. Although I must say, my rowing boat club, student club, was located next to Eichmann's office in Kleinerwannsee...Actually, next to it was Hohn's office. His university institute for state law he ran. Also,a fake the fact this faculty did not really exist, but Hitler appointed Hehn a professor because he wanted Ho6hn as SS man. And he became finally SS General. Uh, and uh Himmler's personal counselor, if he nedeed one. But this Institute was on the Kleinerwansee, on a bridge. The next house was a longish, brownish bungalow type--but very large. Nobody knew who lived there. But I personally saw these SS men with these long coats. I mean, they looked like murderers; and you couldn't have any doubt they were monsters, as persons, even. You know, nobody talked to them or even looked at them. People...And next to it was the club house for, you know, gymnasium students. It was an association, this club house existed since 50 years or so. So we went there rowing; and so you saw these...Made your heart stop, you know, just seeing them so. An obvious brutality, you know, as they walked or so.

Q: How did you find out that Hohn hired Eichmann?

A: Oh, this was reported by a very famous German journalist. Let's see. Yah, there is a documentation on that. I didn't see it. But the President of the German Pen Club, I know him personally, also. I worked with the British information service after the war. And he was...he had fled to Britain, and became our security chief. I discussed what's his name... He is very famous, he has written about...had documentation on it, because of his British position. He had really easy access, and uh I think it is not disputed. It has been uh reported many times, but what really happened to Professor Hehn--being a big shot in the Himmler hierarchy...One aspect of this index was also to record Nazis who had embezzled money, who had misbehaved, sexual offense, and so. And Hohn inserted this due to his office anyone who was a danger. But you know, the old cronies of Hitler were in this index, too.

And it backfired to them. And many of these cronies went to Hitler directly--because they worked with Hitler on a personal basis in the pre-Hitler days--and complained that "What is this man doing? Is he trying to stamp out us old Nazis? We helped you. Remember it." And Hitler got really angry. Hitler was not attached so much to this man. Himmler was. But not. .

Hit[ler]. So Hehn got removed from this position, and who ran it was Eichmann himself. But Himmler pressed and pressed to get Hhn back. And Hitler then, how I think the...the idea was to appoint a SS man as a professor. Because as a professor, he could spy on the general professors in Germany who [had] the reputation not to follow necessarily so willingly a Nazi Regime. But Hitler gave in and appointed him, this Hehn, as a law professor. They created a new faculty, state law faculty. Actually, the whole idea was to prove to the public that the Fuhrer system is actually legitimate form of government, you know. This was...but he got...when the started and the Germans invaded Poland, he was...this Professor HOhn was very much involved in Germanizing Poland. And doing this, I, of course, became a student. I wanted to know everything this man had on his mind. Unfortunately, everything...the most terrible thing which could be thought of was his recommendation. A minimum sentence for any offense was death. I wonder (laughing) what more severe punishments would be. It was completely crazy, you know. So uh IJ had a girlfriend, and she had enlisted to become a doctor. And her doctor father was this. She was not a Nazi. She was not a Nazi; but as usual, a student in Germany, once you were to make a doctor, the university more or less prescribes to you who should be supervising your work. And that was she. She became a assistant under Hehn. They usually used the doctorins as secretaries, more or less. You know, they look over the doctoral dissertation and only with was one eye. But it's even done today. I mean, students in Germany have complained since 200 years about this. But so did Hohn.

And she told me a few things what he was appointed Professor at two universities, Krakow and Poznan, in the occupied zones of Poland. And he actually gave training courses to Nazi officials and SS, how to really clean up Poland. Actually, he helped in the formation of the Polish penal code--which was a German code, extra for Poles. They were not under German law, but under SS law. I mean, people who stole, blow head off, you know, and so. And uh he was contacted by ethnic German doctor from Chomutov, which is actually in Czechoslovakia. "And he is of German descent. And he writes here in this letter, "Dear Doctor Hohn, since I know that you have close relationships with Reichsfiihrer SS Himmler, I want to present you the following." And he refers to an article which was written in a medical journal--the possibility of sterilizing men forever by medical injection. It's a sad moment, planned and so forth. And there is uh uh the contact, and don't let anyone see it; because you know bureaucratic ways, things get lost and so." But this too important, you know. And he suggested ____(ph) prisoners of war in German and practically everyone they don't like, but would liked to have work for them but not propagate, so that they don't endanger the German stock. I mean, a very nice proposition. And apparently Himmler got this. Hohn said, "I never forwarded it." But it is signed off by "HH," which means Heinrich Himmler. And here the letter part, it suggested that test injections should be given to prisoners; and Himmler had actually had written here, in his own hand, writing "Dachau. Ws That means the tests should be done in Dachau, which is... This man I thought had not survived the war, but he did. He is now...at least, if he is still alive, he's probably 81 or so. He rose to a very prominent position in German economic. He could not be a professor, because a German students went on protest for it. But a German industry collected money, established a management research institute. In Bad Harzburg, he bought all hotels in this resort town; and even American firms sent their managers for the Harzburg model teaching done by Himmler's deputy. Impossible! When I heard this, I phoned him and I said, "Are you Doctor Reinhard Hohn? Were you professor in "43-"44?" "Yes. Yes. Yes." And I just hung up. I knew I had my man. Besides, the German embassy sent me informational material of that institute with a picture of the director, Dr. Hehn. I know he has a big... on the left check, a big, blue mark still in this picture. I knew it had to be him. And knowing this, I wrote a

7 Located in the Sudetenland. German name: Komotau.

* Further details of this episode are given in Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, vol.

IIL pp. 940-941. very calm article for a Washington paper and so forth. And as soon as this appeared, I lost my White House career. German Embassy...

Q: Really?

A: Yah, in this case here, I got pretty... am a Democrat. I got along with the Carter Administration. He went to Poland; and I, on my own money, joined him to go to Poland.

Because I knew that this document existed. I conferred with the Polish War Crime Commissioner, Mr. Chaplinsky. They knew it all. They produced this document. Now, German generals: "Oh, we knew that document long ago." But I have never seen it before.

Q: Was anything ever done about Hohn?

A: No. Something was done about me.

Q: Your clearance was still...

A: No, but it was repeated. They actually said...the State Department released a memorandum which has no author, but enormous delivery schedule--at least 10 different agencies. First, I am mentally impaired somehow. I murdered somewhere, sometimes, a State Department official. | am a person who is really a terrorist, because I was in the Danish Resistance Movement, you know. Our real objective was to blow up the railroad train tracks. The Danish government said in Denmark, and the orders were given from England, to...I mean, the Danish government said in England...It was recognized even by the German as a directing party. They had promised not to do anything against Germany. They said, "We are completely occupied. All we can do sort of undercover action to stop these supplies to Norway." So trains had to be blown up, and that was a major objective. But coming back...So this was viewed as a dangerous article I wrote, and I think I will give you this article. I wrote in the Jewish Week. Phillip Hockstein, a friend of mine. I had written a lot of articles. When I came back, he refused to do it, too, you know. I don't know what's so difficult. I finally, really, blackmailed him somehow. I am a very charming blackmailer.

They finally wrote this article; and the reaction was practically zero. Although, I attended the function at the Kennedy Center with the Queen of Denmark. Kissinger was there, was actually the maid of honor, herding people around the Queen and so. But finally he lost interest in this, and this Queen (laughing) was standing there all by herself. And she accepted (laughing) me like I was a foreign minister of the United States. Which I will never be, not after this rumor. But people sort of noticed me, and then I heard people talking about my article. I know you are a famous journalist then when you went go to a outhouse on a farm and they have newspaper for toilet paper, and when you find that one article of yours appears on that piece of toilet paper. Then you are really famous.

Q: We have to stop now. I thank you very much.

A: It is fun. Actually, it is fun. It was fun then, because you could do what you believed in. And it was useful for others. And telling it now is fun too, because nobody knows about it. PHOTOGRAPHS

[NB: There was conversation regarding taking of pictures but I didn't think it was needed for

purposes of this tape except perhaps for the following]

Q: Tell them who this is. Identify this man?

A: This is Hal Autonebed. He had a plumbing business in Bydgoszcz, and he was representative of the German minority in this district same, the Polish parliament. And he also cooperated as an agent of the Secret Service of Germany.