Document

Q: You went to the Polytechnic Institute too?

A: Right.

Q: When did you go to that school?

A: After I come back from concentration camp and after 1947 I come back to Poland because we were hoping Poland be free country and never happened and after I was in Warsaw 1947 I intend to finish my Polytechnic engineering, Polytechnic Institute, engineering line. And I finish and I was all time thinking going to the United States. And maybe we go back little bit because 1939 start war and 1939 I was mobilized to special army unit. We fortificate, we build the forts reinforcing concrete forts against the Germans in north part of Poland where was on this small river, very dangerous, small deep river, we build our Polish fortification. And this fortification was going up to 17 September 1939. And first bomb German drop was not Warsaw, the other place, was our (?) where we fortificate on our fortification and German army start in fight Poland and our unit go back to east to Russian Soviet border and this was seventeen days like this and meantime the Soviet throw from the plane information all units stop fighting with the Russians and Germans and go. We are your friends. In September 17, the Russian-Soviet army invite in Poland no declaration of war and give us the knife in our army from the back.

And that was very upset and we was very scared what happened. Because two big colossus from German sixteen million and from Russian eighteen million we have absolutely no chance.

And Russians took all our -- 17 September -- couple of days we were fighting with small group, pro-Soviet group, Communist group in this area close to East Polish border and near the Lithuanian border in {Orani} that was less small fighting and Russian Soviet tanks was surround our group and we was forced to surrender. After Soviet took our unit and arrested, start selection. Some old officers were sent on one side and later this officer was killed in (?}.

Some group was selected young people like me and with the future, army officers, I was trained future army officers on other side. And people who was rank not with the privates were sent home. And we were arrested and first night I was with my other friends in one room in barn and some fellow who, Soviet, who took the guards, let us go during the night after I give my watch and twenty Polish zloty because was couple hundred people there and this fellow took for us and six guys, we went out. We divide in six groups and I took with my friend from Warsaw and we go west to Warsaw because this place was very close to Russian border. And two guys go north and went to Lithuania and later there to Sweden and from Sweden to England and fight against the Germans there. We were not so lucky because we must cross the Bug River and go to Warsaw and we did this and was very hard, very dangerous because there were so many Communist sympathizers who start threat our military men, we were in uniform.

Q: Still in uniform?

A: Uniform, it was very dangerous. We tried to go through the night through the woods going west because we were scared about the Communist and between the Polish Communists were very many Jewish Communists. Was very danger, not only for Polish, for Jewish people was danger.

Communists were working with the Soviets.

Q: Were there a lot of Communists in Poland?

A: Not too many was Communists in Poland and still was some and very funny thing, after the war

the Communists go to Russia and was killed later there by (?) because was (?) saying this are spies [shpyons]for west.

Q: Why do you suppose these people sided with the Communists?

A: I think this was like all over the world, people thinking what is nice in the book, what is nice in ideology probably is nice in practice, and never was. That happened right now in Russia after 70 years old nobody like to be Communists because Communists was only good for some small group people who are on the top. This was nothing else like dictatorship.

Q: What did they teach you in school about Russia and the Communists?

A: Excuse me.

Q: When you were going to school in Poland?

A: In school nobody special talk about the Communists and we know from the press, from the life, from the discussion what is in Russia. But nobody know live in America what was in Russia.

We know. I born almost anti-Communist because I feel myself I am Christian, I am a Catholic.

I feel if I have two hands I must do everything what is possible good for me and for other people and I never grabbed the hand and steal somebody or kill somebody for something what I like have. I was born anti-Communist and I'm glad right now I live so long and the Communist fell down. That's very bad ideology and not practical.

Q: So were you able to get back to Warsaw?

A: After one, two months together with my friend we found Warsaw, family living in Warsaw very bad condition because house was destroyed. And from there our family start rebuild. Was all time very -- my father was very, mother too, very hard working people, very ambition, and very good Catholics and try to rebuild our family again and we start again, business, and we go through the occupation time. I was arrested couple times from 1940 to 1944. Was couple reason. Each day in Warsaw was killed hundred people because Poland was fighting against the German, not against the German against the Nazi. That's a big difference -- Nazi and German.

And we special our young people was very anxious fight with German. Once I was arrested after I help some Jewish people. The girl bring to my father factory some small needle what we need for production. And we bought from this girl. We know the girl are from Jewish family and was very nice person. We bought and after couple days the girls come back and after the girls come back the German criminal Polizei arrest me and start searching our house, my father, mother house, because I live with parents at this time and working for my father in factory and was one of the first arrested.

Q: What was the charge?

A: Charge was what kind connection I have with the Jewish people, why I help and was against some very interesting situation. My mother speak German and start asking the fellows why you are arrested my son did nothing and the fellows search, the other three guys search our house and find in my drawer couple twenty dollars gold and the chief who take the search give me the paper and prepare something in German what I sign and was I found in house in Rome occupied by (?) twenty dollars so many pieces. And I sign. And the fellow was from criminal

Polizei, criminal police. And after moment the fellow go down from third our floor to street.

My mother started crying and asked release my son. And the fellow took the gold pieces not show the other guy who searched and released me. I come back to my house.

Q: Was it illegal to have those gold pieces?

A: Was not illegal and this was really value that we can do something, buy something to eat.

Q: How did you get the gold pieces?

A: Oh that's no problem because this time in Warsaw mostly the gold was valuable thing and you can buy and sell and something like this, you know, and it was in my family, we was not poor people, you know, and that was one, and I never saw the girl again, she was killed or sent to concentration camp.

Q: When did this happen?

A: This was happened 1942 something like this.

Q: So when there was a ghetto...

A: Ghetto was already open and second arrest by Gestapo was I was across the border to ghetto many times because we buy some small part of the machinery what we own and before the war all the supply was in the ghetto area and we was forced buy something because we cannot work with this and we receive from Gestapo some paper we can go to ghetto. And meantime if I go to ghetto I take all time something to eat to people who live there, sandwiches or some bread or something like this and one very bad SS man on the border...

Q: Checkpoint.

A: Checkpoint start checking me and so I have some sandwiches and sent me right away to Polish commissariat, mean the Polish prison and from there start not so bad because I was only one night there and I suppose to be sent to working camp in Germany and because my father was connected with underground and Polish police before the war was second was friendly with my father too. My father took some connection and I was free and I never ...(There was a loud bang and interruption)

Q: You were talking about your second arrest.

A: My second arrest and I was in Polish prison one night and one day and after my father talked to somebody famous in Polish police I was released I was supposed to go to Arbeit Amt to German office and I supposed to send to Germany and never happened. I was together with family from this.

Q: When did you get arrested the second time?

A: That was the second time.

Q: What date was thar?

A: That was about 42, 43.

Q: The first one was November 1942 and the second?

A: Was 43, something like this.

Q: This was before the ghetto rebelled against the Germans.

A: Before, right. During this moment you mentioned the ghetto uprising, we was very, very upset and we cannot eat. I remember this moment we was called and the whole ghetto was burning.

And the smell was so terrible and besides this we know we left there many good people. I was very close with the Jewish people in ghetto because branch what my father was -- knitting, me.

And in knitting line was many Jewish factories and many Jewish hokseller (?) what we was connected automatically because it was the business and many Jewish people, X number, very fair playing business men. Some was bad and some was good and we was very upset after we saw the Warsaw burning. And before the Warsaw burning my father and me, we took three families from ghetto and we found location, not me, my father mostly --was very good person, very good Christian, and took the Christianity for daily not only during Sunday. In other words took everything what think is right did. This moment because we received, father and me, we received special privilege going to ghetto buying something what we need for supplying our machinery. People were crying please, good people couple good family you know was connected to us and before the war Jewish uprising my father found three places where the people can hire. One of the places was the Swedish Embassy in Warsaw and there was housekeeper, Polish family, and was very devoted Christian. And this people said to my father if you have no choice and you are like help the Jewish people we can hire the people. (Female voice in the background said ""hide"). And my father took some very big risk because only one country on Europe during the war German suggest if somebody hire Jewish be killed on spot, what happened thousand, thousand times. And still my father took the chance and took the family, Malamed family, Benyamin Malamed and Irena Malamed with two young sons took from ghetto with the housewives what we have and transferred to the Warsaw Swedish Embassy. These people lived there without the big risk. After moment where German and Jewish agent start one action where German suggest and propose if Jewish family, Jewish men like be transfer to America or to other country and against the German who was captured by Aryans and pay some money, that is possible. And this idea was created by agent, Jewish fellow, son of the famous Fabricant in Lodz and this fellow organized with the SS Gestapo some place in Warsaw close to our factory {Duga} Hotel Polski and sent all over the information we transfer Jewish people against the German people in the hands of the Aryans and each person must pay some hundred dollars in gold. And my family, Mr. Malamed believed this and one day said, I am going to Hotel Polski and I be glad to be transferred to America and from America some German be transferred here who was in hands of American army or some other army, prisoner of war. And this my friends go there to Hotel Polski and from this moment we lose the track. After couple weeks we know these people went to some concentration camp on the west and later there we learned that that was Bergen-Belsen because Polish underground look which transport come back and probably some search was done by Polish underground army and we know the people go west and later there we know was in Bergen concentration camp. After the war 1946 I took couple of days off from duty in American army and I went to Bergen-Belsen, look for my friends. And I was too late. Two weeks before I arrived there Malamed family went to Israel.

Q: So they survived?

A: They survived and that's one family. We received later there from Palestine and later from Israel many cards from this family, very, very good people. Now second two family what we did and I was help to father because I was one family member to work with father because I was twenty two years old, I was not young like my brother, sixteen, or my sister, twelve or fifteen. Second family what we try hide was in Hungary Embassy, very famous place on the corner Aleyawiadofskin and Chopina, Ulica Chopina in Warsaw where the old embassy was before the war two. And again the supervisor of the whole Hungarian Embassy was my father friend and again my father pleas for the favor hire these people. And this gentleman said fine and we sent the two family, one was Mr. Landau and wife with son. Mr. Landau was in our branch, both Jewish people was in the same branch, knitting. Me. Landau was owner of the stocking factory in Lodz and we was very good connected.

Q: So he was from Lodz, not from Warsaw?

A: From Lodz and later there was in Warsaw ghetto. We know him from Lodz and was in Warsaw ghetto and we took these people, not really we because I not was there, my father created different situation asked some Polish policeman who took the people and bring to the place here supposed to be mean to Hungarian Embassy. I was couple time there visit. This was not nice place because was in basement, second basement below the ground level because this was building years, years ago belonged to very famous Polish aristocracy. And this was below, second floor below the ground because was wine cellar and this people was there for x number of months. I visit there. The people receive each couple days special food there and this time you must be very careful buy big amount of food because people think you are single why you buy so much, if it was possible to buy. And this building was not occupied by nobody because was partly destroyed. And still my father friend was each day there and watched after the building. The same talking you know, go to the people and bring him something. And was very famous situation in Warsaw where maybe you know from the other sources, in Warsaw was SS very brutal man Kutschera, General Kutschera and this animal killed people each day by own hand and was escorted each day by twenty, thirty chairmen with guns and gun prepared to shoot if somebody attacked the SS man Kutschera and main office Kutschera was three buildings from the place where our people was hire in the basement and we was thinking and the people was thinking this is the best place, close to the SS. And every week was all right. Only one day Polish underground tried to kill Kutschera because he was a very bad man who killed thousand people and sent to death. On the corner Chopina where the Embassy was and the Polish underground took the action. Kutschera was killed. Many other German was killed and that was good for Polish underground. And was not good for the people who was in the basement because from this moment all blocks was put with the wire around and nobody could go in and out from the building where was hire the Jewish two family. Was Mr. like I said before and second family was only one person Mr. Epstein. And was start problem supply the food for the people in the basement. And we never go there because later there start Warsaw uprising and the people living in the basement lose the contact. We know from other people later after Warsaw uprising the people survived all Warsaw uprising and go to scourge (?) because after Warsaw collapsed the Germans took all people out from Warsaw and go to checkpoint in Geraldof or near the border of Warsaw and select. And because these people was very, very weak and white color the German SS recognize the people was Jewish and Warsaw uprising mean the march from Warsaw was only family Landau, son and mother and father. The other,

Mr. Epstein, was probably like some people think was killed by Landau family.

Q: By Landau family?

A: Because was not enough food and water. This I don't know. I was not there. People told to me, only I know the corpse, the body of Mr. Epstein still in the basement in Warsaw on Chopina comer and probably nobody know are buried in the basement there. That's story I heard after I come back to Poland from American army and I talked to people who survived the Warsaw uprising. That was three family, nice people who we tried help. And I think so we did, people ask me why you did this. First we are Christians and in our religion if we have chance help somebody, we do. Not me. I am love all Jewish people like Mr. Kahana or Mr. Weiss from York, I not like him. And still if the fellow be on edge of the cliff probably I give him help.

That's I did in 1943, deg44. That was about helping people in very brutal situation. My personal what you like know more, personal; experience in a concentration camp?

Q: First of all the Warsaw uprising.

A: Warsaw uprising probably you have more, you have tomorrow or today you talk to my brother who was longer in the Warsaw uprising. Because we was divided, our family, two really three groups. My brother, younger brother, was in middle Warsaw and what was in the group what was fighting with the Germans and still was the special commando. Myself and my father we was all the time home, army and we support, we hire you know all paper for print or stuff like this and we give money for underground organization. And after Warsaw uprising start, in our factory, our building, was all ammunition and the sharp rifles, pistol, and something else. And I never know that our group was so big because I know only two, three people around me because all organization was do designed I know only couple people. My father know only couple people. We never know big circle the people. And after the Warsaw uprising start our magazine was opened. And was so many people asked for and has title to ammunition and pistol or something. Was fifty percent without some gun, ammunition, some grown-up or something like this. That was 175 Kilinski battalion and the first day we was ready without the guns. Warsaw uprising was very,very much cost our life, our people. The best people was dying. Quarter million people died during Warsaw uprising, the best.

Q: When did you join the resistance, the underground?

A: We was already two years before in ??

Q: So 1942 you...

A: deg40, deg40, deg42 I was already.

Q: And what about your father?

A: My father was all the time and that was the second group we was in near our factory. And my intention was after I not receive gun, I was training because during the 1939 I was doing couple months with army. And I was very upset, I have no gun. What kind of soldier if I have no gun, nothing. And the special youngest people was so aggressive and was against the Germans took everything what was in our basement location. That was not belong to this place too. In our building and not belong to us was to the group Kalinski battalion.

Q: That was your unit?

A: My unit. And later I took, you know, because I was ? I mean build bridges, destroyed bridges or something like this, I was start with the fortification there. And I was very upset during the whole Warsaw uprising.

Q: Why?

A: Why? Because I was thinking is too much cost our life and we have gained very little. Why was my thinking this way? Because young people who never was in the war don't know nothing how the war looked. And 1939 I was in Polish army, I know the Russian army, and I know the German army going from the east to Warsaw. And special during the Hitler time in Warsaw, deg39, deg44 1 was thinking this is fighting with the so big colors, people, so big army, we had no chance. And Russian army asked Polish underground start fighting with German in 1944, and after we start fighting the Russians never helped us and never asked again start fighting with Germans. That was my think. And our group I lose couple of friends in the action and we was in the old part of the Warsaw. And after the part of Warsaw was collapsed we were supposed to go through the Commouse (?) below the ground to the middle part of the Warsaw should ?misht(?) in. And we never caused this because we was left? group was going to ? us and prevent German going from the ghetto, this area, to however place where we was there.

And after last moment the Commouse was destroyed because Germans put the? in the? We had no chance to go to (?) joint with the other part of the Warsaw underground, uprising unit. And I went to my mother house and we took our clothes what we was fighting and we changed for civilian clothes. And that was couple hours. After couple hours I only eat, dress, wash my hands, and took the other clothes and German start screaming and the whole house rouse. In other words we must go out from the basement and we must go to outside. And we did this.

Q: Who are you now, who are together?

A: And we meet together, my mother, my two sister, and the same time, my father.

Q: Did he take his uniform off, too?

A: My father was not in uniform.

Q: So he was not fighting?

A: Fighting, yes, organized everything there. Based Fabricant (?) where is our factory. That was very active man. Only was not, was forty couple years old, and was not fight with what, with stone. You cannot fight with stone. And was not enough guns, ammunition, etc. Was maybe 20 % people with guns and the other was doing nothing. In middle part of the Warsaw was better organized.

Q: Where your brother was?

A: Yes, that was better prepared for this. And after this moment we go out from the basement where we lived. We lived close to the ------- in our house was the church. And we go out from the basement and (?) and up and search and we went couple miles by foot to the point where we

was sent to train and from train to some special big barracks and we was select there to concentration camp. During the march from our house to the place where we was sent to the railroad was very bad moment because many Ukrainian people work for Germans and was very, very molested situation. My mother cannot take the ring, gold ring from the finger and the fellow like cut my mother finger.

Q: She cut it?

A: Like cut. And the German soldier said what you doing stupid? And let my mother go because this old lady cannot take this. And from this moment we go to Krushkuff near the Warsaw.

That was big old railroad factory and we sleep there one night and we supposed to go someplace. And we were selected, old people on one side, young people on other. And my mother was sent on side with the old people and my father and my mother said no, I not leave my children, I go together. And go with us to group where was selected to concentration camp.

That's my mother went to concentration camp.

Q: Where did the other group go?

A: The other group go free. The others go someplace where we don't know and was old people was free, sixty, seventy years old, fifty or under. Young people was sent on one side and was selected to concentration camp. This was first part where German took old Warsaw. This time the fighting army was (?) was called by German like bandit, not fighting people for freedom, like bandit. Later there the International Red Cross and other sources press the German and the fighting army was equal to prisoner of war. I was not so lucky, I go to concentration camp.

Q: Do you remember when your family was arrested? Before the battle was finished, right?

A: You mean before the Warsaw uprising? That was I think about the first of September. Later there we go to the place and again this was not so lucky because we was in Prushkof the whole family with me, the father, two sister, and me was in Prushkof, the old factory. And we supposed to go to someplace we don't know yet at this time. And I talked to one Austrian fellow with Austrian insignia in German army because I speak German. I asked him listen, what we can do, we must go from here, and my mother is sick. And the fellow said, maybe I can help you and said, you can go out if you pay some money in gold. And we have the gold with us because nobody said (?). And I give for each person twenty gold dollars. And was everything prepared. We must go through physician and select like sick people. And one hour after I talk to this fellow some start "boom" there and SS start screaming, shrying and make noise, everybody out. Why? Because from Red Cross International, Red Cross from Sweden and Switzerland, people supposed to see how German treat the people after Warsaw uprising.

And we was pressed going up to the doctor, we was lying to the doctor, and we was take out, kick and push and put in the cars, cow cars, how do you call the transport?

Q: Cattle cars.

A: Right and we was pushed there for so many people. How many can go in? And the train goes.

And was two weeks. I not remember exactly -- was long time. We go from one place to other and nobody like take us. Because all concentration camps was full. And after all, we go so long around Germany, we went in concentration camp Flossenburg.

Q: Did they feed you when you were on the train?

A: Very little. Very little, and we have with us....really I don't remember, I know we have something to eat, our stuff because we took from Warsaw something. Nobody take from us nothing.

Q: What about water?

A: With water was not so good. With water I was sick after it. All transport I was very sick to the stomach. And I was thinking I die, because why I stay in the transport. I was like usual very stupid family man. I was thinking family that is something what is not breakable. Because was two young sister, my mother and my father. I was thinking I am the most powerful young fellow and I have not other obligation, I must help my family. Special I was taught by my father and mother. My father and mother was four years in World War First in working camp in Germany and said to us, because we was family we survived. And going to Germany with my family I was thinking the same. I am the youngest fellow, powerful. I supposed to help and I help because I know my character. And happened was not working place only was concentration dead camp where we was there and selected, women Theresienstadt and men stay in Flossenburg. And after the whole transport we go from Warsaw by this car. If I have not obligation to my family I go hundred times escape because was not so bad. During night I can jump because was open. I can do this. And I cannot jump and go and lift my mother who was fifty years old and my father and two young girls. And that was the reason I landed in concentration camp. After we arrived on Flossenburg I was thinking I die. After we stopped in one place before Flossenburg, Weiden I asked the fellow who was on the train, give me hot water a little bit because I am very sick. I speak German and the fellow said fine, I give you.

And give me the steam, after one minute there was water from the steam. AndI drink maybe one a little this and that's what probably helped me. And from this moment the locomotive was changed and to this transport the locomotive was connected with SS people. Because SS people only go to concentration camp with the transport.

Q: So before then these were German army?

A: German railroad men. Railroad men was like army during the war. And we went there to concentration camp, Flossenburg and there was so nice sign "Arbeit Macht Frei" mean during the work you can be free. And there was the selection, women on one side, men on the other.

And start the problem like you know all concentration camp has. Each day something new, each day people were killed. People was pushed from the stone, steinbruk from hundred twenty feet high. On the top, you know, somebody push you to the bottom. People from the first moment was selection who is engineer on one side, who is physician on other side, and these people who was high educated was killed first, not by bullet, by walking up to knee in the water, very bad condition. And people who work all time hard and has hard life was prepared to this. The intelligent people was not prepared. Each day was somebody from our group to die, die. And was so many diseases and was terrible. From our transport, I remember somebody took the numbers, over three and a half thousand people come back only one hundred eighty three people back. Between the bad people was two friendly American boys who supplied to Warsaw through the air ammunition and guns was shot by German and landed close to our house Mirdova and went with us together to concentration camp Flossenburg and if you go to Flossenburg what I visit couple years ago are how many Polish people died there, was mostly died Polish, Russian, very small Jewish and two Americans. They died in Flossenburg. Help

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Polish people. And till concentration camp terrible, was very bad, and our camp was governed by criminals, not only SS criminals, and German criminals. We political because from Warsaw operation was political. We were called political prisoners. We was with the red triangle and P.

The other German prisoner, the bandits, was with green. Other color, some Jewish was blacks (?) star. And I tell you one thing, in concentration camp I never think people the prisoner was very friendly each other and never, never I saw or (?) you re Polish or you are Jewish or you are, for example, French. Was not so, people think was very bad atmosphere. We never had bad experience, for example, with French, Jewish, Russian, the same. We was prisoner. We experienced the same problem and that's the story in concentration camp. Many things I can point out to you about the concentration camp because it was a very brutal moment and depressed. How many times you go do something somebody push you, the SS or kapo. Kapo mostly was in our concentration camp was German prisoners, sadist. And some was Jewish too.

And I cannot say the prisoner was something one against the other. In my camp was like I said before, General Kenaus was killed and all generals, Italian generals who was against Hitler and Mussolini this time, the group called General (??) people, generals, age 60-70 was treated very, very badly by not only German, by the prisoners, I don't know why, the people must have died there. Because was something this time I did not understand. In my eye one general was not killed and was very, very bad wounded by one criminals and took a chair and punch the chair on the head. And each day was terrible. And problem was the Appel. It was the Appel and somebody was missing because died already and where is the body, for example, because on Appel we must count the body and live people. That sometimes takes two hours, three hours before every numbers come together. I hope I can tell you more. Many friends from my town, from this group, 3,000, died, because there was not enough eat, was not enough medicine. I was very lucky, I got some in hospital. And my father, special, helped many Polish people give some medicine, maybe not help too much and still help some. After war was end some Russian people, in this concentration camp was 5,000 Russian army officers, and this people was stoned one guy (??) who was very brutal, beat my father once very badly, and this Russian (?) took the gun because American army give us the gun. Shoot if you think so somebody is, give it to him.

Shoot him. Nobody from Polish group shoot nobody. The Russian a good many, many, many.

Q: You mention your father was badly beaten. Why was he beaten?

A: Beaten for no reason, no reason at all. We go with my father to the Appel Place what we have title to do and Lagerfuhrer go against us and for no reason punch my father in nose and start kicking. I was shocked. What I can do? And my father wake up and said excuse and we go together and my father and said, listen these people can kick me or anybody can. No reason.

Q: So how did you survive? Looking back what are the reasons for your survival?

A: My reason for survival I think was the connection with friend who was from beginning help us, Jan Shienitski because this fellow looked after us. If 1 have nobody there I am sure I die.

Besides this I was young, 23, 24 years old. I was good sportsman, my body was built good and I was feed good before the uprising. We eat, some people has not food, not enough food or not good food and these people die fast. That was the reason. And besides this reason was my mother was, I feel, during my sitting in concentration camp, each evening I prayed to the God, if somebody must die, better me because I am alone, not my mother, not my sisters, not my father because my father has obligations to family, my mother obligation to sisters. All time I pray. After I come back from camp, my mother said each day I prayed to God the same. Let take me, I am the oldest woman and save the children. Probably something helped us.

Q: Somebody answered your prayers.

A: Yeah, that I think. And one thing more in the concentration camp if I can mention you, I was in the revier (?) mean the hospital and my bed was very close to on the other side of the other room was (?). People, die people, after somebody died, the clothes was taking out and the dead people was laying on the floor, they took the other before, dentists take their teeth. And listen, behind the wall maybe couple hundred corpse there and one day was some shooting from the tower, one of the tower near the crematorium where I lived was shooting and the bullets go all over and we was be killed. Only the corpse of the dead people catch the bullets, not me. And what happened, next day we check what happened. Some Russian prisoner go to the Lichencomer mean the morgue, go there and pick up the gold teeth, stealing the gold teeth from the people. And the fellow who was on the watching tower saw him and put the reflector, the spot there, and start shooting. And I was very lucky. I was behind this corpse of the dead people.

Q: So they were shooting into your barracks because the Russians had stolen the gold and you were saved by the piles of bodies.

A: That's right.

Q: Any other miracles?

A: Not many kinds on the fight. I not fight in my life too much and during the concentration camp I fight with fellow the same age like me. This was Russian Communist young officer who all (?) said don't worry, Pole, Poland never be free. Be seventeenth Russian Republic. And I was very patriotic. I said you crazy, you stupid, Poland be free again. And we start fighting. And each couple day was the same. And I never fight with other people. I fight with him. And now after so many years my fight was right, Poland is free, Russian Communists is dead.

Q: Is that a good time to end?

A: No, I think so. We got much more time, I think so now. I was not prepared for this.....select.....

Q: Well the rest we can get from your book about your experiences.

A: I am glad this going to some museum and special the Holocaust Museum and I be glad it be placed there and this way we know was not only Jewish people killed in Holocaust, was French, Polish, Russian, Zigoinen (gypsies) and many others. And many people like me Christian also suffered from the topalistic (?) German fanatic and Russian Communist dictator.

Q: One final question, when did you come to America?

A: 1961.

Q: After you got married?

A: Yes, with two children. And I am glad because so much Polish people suffer and we think we

must create for our children better life, not only economically, free country, one of the famous free country and we are glad that we are here. And my father was dreaming going to America 1914. And going to America by boat from Warsaw to Gdansk and start break war, war fast.

Q: And he never tried again?

A: Never tried again. We was in American zone. We can stay there. I was part of army and I go for one month to Poland and I come back to border green and was shooting and so on. I go to Poland because my sisters and my mother was in Poland and I know I like take from Poland three and bring to United States and go to Germany. Was not possible because my mother said I am so weak, I cannot go. My sisters said we stay with mother. I come back to my father, to Germany. My father decide if so I go there. And after one year later I go back to Poland and I was fifteen waiting for possibility to go to United States.

Q: Did your father -- he never went to America?

A: No, died before I went.

Q: In Poland?

A: In Poland. Yes and I had with my father very good relationship and was very good man and both parents was very devoted parents and was very, very Christians, very good people, very, very honest. I'd be glad if my children has the same opinion of me.

Q: He died in Warsaw?

A: He died in Warsaw.

Q: His business, his factory?

A: Was took by Communists.

Q: The Germans never took it?

A: German took once.

Q: In 1944?

A: Yes.

Q: Thank you.

A: Thank you and hope somebody understands something.