Document

LOUISE SEGAAR November 10, 2000 Beginning Tape One, Side A

Q: This is an interview with Louise Segaar, conducted by Katie Davis, on November 10", 2000, at the Holocaust Museum, at the L'Enfant Plaza. This is tape number one, side A. If we can just begin -- if you can give your full name at birth.

A: Louise Julia Von Cammingha.

Q: Can you spell your last name?

A: C-a-m-m-i-n-g-h-a.

Q: And when were you born?

A: November 14, 1920.

Q: Okay, and where?

A: Patavia, in Jaffa, Indonesia. In those days was Dutch East Indies.

Q: Can you tell us the names of your mother and father?

A: My father's name is bar -- Baron Ruurd Von Cammingha, my mother's name was Jacqueline Von Sweetin. Now, she is from a general's family, and they had plantations in Indonesia.

Q: Can you please spell your father's name, Ruurd?

A: R-u-u-r-d, and then Carl, so my son is the same name. And his sister had a son, was also Ruurd Carl, and he got smashed by a Nazi truck when he was 16, on the way from high school to his house.

Q: Can you tell us a little bit more about what your mother and father were doing in Indonesia?

A: We owned plantations, we lived there. My mother was born in Malung, and my father was sent by the needelaunser handlesbunk, to have a office in Jaffa. So, they met there, and got

married, and I was born -- my brother was born in Polungbung, and we went back to Holland when I was four, because he was assigned to another job in the Netherlands, and 15 years later was my sister born.

Q: Can you tell us the names of your brother and sister?

A: My brother's name is Feetus Valerius Von Cammingha, and my sister is Kristina Maria. I'm laughing, because we don't call each other that way. Totally different names. But Kristina Maria Von Cammingha. We call her Snane. And my brother is Peterbas. Crazy.

Q: These are nicknames?

A: Yeah, because as a child, it was too difficult to figure out the real names, so that was what we gave them, and that held on for years.

Q: Right, right. Did you yourself have a nickname when you were young?

A: Yeah, my name is Lukie. And now I have a business on the website, I'm -- I -- I'm now Bonzo, because that was the name during the war as an underground person. You never said your own name, but you had a fake name, just in case, to be on the safe side. So Bonzo is that little dog, look like a bulldog, you know? Feisty, and very determined, and you don't get rid of that dog very easy.

Q: Can you tell us a bit about daily life when you were four, or five, or six, you're beginning to become aware of things, back -- back in the [indecipherable]

A: Yeah, we had -- we had servants. Of course, all Indonesian, and they were watching us, and they -- they cleaned the house, they were cooking, and doing the laundry, and the laundry was done in the river, and that was slammed on the -- on the rocks. And then a little bit further was someone brushing the teeth. That was life in Indonesia. We always had protection, we always had people with a gun, just in case, because it was always kind of difficult times. And well, for

the rest, it was -- it was very protective. You could not go out, for instance, to the pussar by yourself. The pussar is like a department place, where you buy st-stuff from outside, because you could get on the back a knife. So why would you provoke that? There's off -- obviously we have a -- an -- an -- a white skin, while the population is brown skinned, so -- but mostly they had respect. After all, we -- we were a colony, and if we had to complain, it was not very, very difficult to put a person in -- in jail. And in those days no lawyers to defend. If -- if you got a complain, no questions asked, there you go. That was the way it happened.

Q: And what was it like when you went back to -- where your parent -- well, where your family originally was from -- from the Netherlands?

A: Yeah, yeah, to the Netherlands -- see, my father was born in Amsterdam, so his parents were in Holland, and my mother's parents were still in Indonesia. And well, we just lived in -- in the street, I can remember that, was a -- a -- a house over -- over the entrance of a garage, so I remember it was always cold, because the wind always goes through that -- that entrance. Why they picked that house, I never could understand that. And the school was close by, we could walk. In the Netherlands, you don't have that system as here, that the school buses, you just go on the bike, or you pick a school close to your house, that's how it was there. And it was always raining. Holland is always damp-y, and -- you get used to that, too, th-the raincoat was way until the ankles. And you had beautiful skin, because always wet, you know, always pinky. And you just take things the way it happens, no complain. You don't know anything better. But I do realize that my mother was relieved because my mother was not accustomed to the Indonesian climate. See, over there, you have six -- six months that it is pouring rain, and six months is it so dry that we had red earth in the ears, and in the nose, and on -- because of the dust. So that was what we called the dry season. And then the wet season was -- if it was always pouring rain, no,

if it was raining, if you would stand in -- on the street, and the rain would fall, on this side you were wet, on this side you was dry. I never forget that, and it was always six o'clock.

Q: So you actually have a lot memories of Indonesia?

A: Oh, definitely. I had my own monkey. I had my own parrot, white with a little tuft. And that parrot was talking, and the monkey was always hugging me, loving me to pieces. I miss that, because here you're not allowed to have a monkey. But it is companionship, and you feel kind of -- you know, you have something that belongs, and that you protect. Cause the natives, of course, they protected you, but they had no interest in you as a person. They only had interest in themselves, to stay safe. We played tennis, and we -- we swam a lot. I remember you -- you went in your pajamas to the movies, that that's the custom, you know? Nobody's looking around like she's crazy, it is just the way that -- that you lived, that way.

Q: And when you went back, did -- to the house, you s -- can -- you say you remember the street.

Can you describe the neighborhood a little bit more? This is in the Netherlands.

A: In the Netherlands? Oh yeah, but see that was not changed that much. I was the last time in deg84, and everything was changed. And that's why after that, I f -- I told my sister, I have no inclinations to go back, because it is so changed, I don't re-remember that is my country. It's all highway, modern buildings, the roads are ap -- you know here the -- the Beltway? In Holland is it much worse. Because you have not been prepared. Holland is as -- as small as New Jersey.

Everything has to be one way, because the streets are so narrow. In those days -- the houses were built in 12 -- 1200, and then in 16-1700, was mo-more built. So if you go to Amsterdam, or The Hague, the streets you can only walk in. A car would not even move, because it is so shuclocked, you couldn't make a turn, it was blocked. Y-You don't even need a traffic sign, because it's not necessary.

Q: So where do people leave their cars?

A: Well, you have parking space, if you can find one, but it could be two blocks away -- as long as you have your car parked. And that is why we didn't have a car, we had bikes. I was always on the bike, cause that's the easy. And you -- you kept your bike in the house, because they were stealing like heck. Now we had the Germans, for instance, we -- we were, for instance, on one end of the street, blocked by trucks, two or three, full of soldiers, and on the other side of the street the same way, so you could not get out, period. And then they were doing rusias. A rusia means that this house to house search, for either a radio, a fur coat, a bike, anything that they could use. And if you would listen to the BBC for news, then you would get down on your knees in front of your front door, ping, out.

Q: What?

A: Killed. Oh yeah.

Q: Oh, you mean if -- if you were discovered listening to the news?

A: That's right. Now, my father -- my whole family is like r-rebels, you know, we -- we do things that you're not supposed to, but we do it, because we are not told by any big mouth shot, what we can and cannot do. So, my father was always listening. So when we had that search, when the -- I -- I stretch my hand this way on the -- at the door, so they could not pass, and I always had my uniform on, because you have to learn a weakness of a person -- I studied that. So I found out the Germans were always scared for illness, for anything that is contagious. So I told them point blank -- I'm a big liar -- with straight poker face, sorry, but I have a diphtheria patient in the back. Of course not true. So what? And then my father would yell from upstairs, "Who is there?" I said, "Dad, this is rotmoff." That's Dutch for rotten Jerry. Oh, my father dashed to the - - the radio, turn it off, house quiet. So, the Germans didn't know what I was saying, but they had

enough, and get out, they didn't want to get sick. So that was the way it happened in my house.

Now, I don't know, next door neighbors, because you was very cautious that you didn't say too much.

Q: Can you talk a little bit more about -- you said no one in my fam -- your family is full of rebels. Talk a little bit more about other things your father did, even before the Germans came, that sort of taught you that, how to -- to really be your own person.

A: Oh yeah, well we are very military. My father graduated in Breedah, say as similar as here, West Point. My younger son graduated from West Point. My older son is from VMI. So we always teased each other. The West Point son said, "You -- you got to tell sir to me." Now he's nine years younger than my older son, so my older son, "You can go to you know where." They always were joking, but we were brought up very strict, and my father was a banker, so I learned finances quick. In -- in 1929, with the depression, I got a -- an income of a dime on Sundays, and I had to write everything down on a little book, the expenses, and the income, and if it was not balanced, I would not get my salary.

Q: Interesting.

A: And then on my mother's side, my mother's father was a general, who fought in the archie war, and he earned a golden urn, and that was put in a home for retired soldiers, that is called Brombake. And if you visit them, they know, "Oh yeah, General Von Sweetin." My mother had a brother who was a captain in the Dutch army. My father was in Hoosar, and that means you have your own horse, and you are in the cavalry. And another brother, who was shot by the Germans in the airport, was a captain in the army, and he was not in the underground, he was in the regular army, but he tried to stop a German airplane, and when he was shooting, while the airplane was landing, they shot him instead, so --

Q: Who -- what was his name?

A: Edward.

Q: Edward.

A: So my younger son is also Edward.

Q: Oh.

A: Yeah.

Q: So would have been Edward -- last name?

A: Same.

Q: Von --

A: My uncle was Edward Von Sweetin, because he was a -- a -- a brother of my mother. Now, we have a museum in Brombake, and we have -- that is the Von Sweetin museum, and we have a museum in Leeuwarden, that is the Von Cammingha museum. And we had a castle on the island of Leeuwarden, but that was burned down, and then we had some other castle. You just flow away with castles -- close to Leeuwarden, and I have a booklet there, that is now the place of a well known Dutch soccer club -- soccer team. So I got that -- my son went to Holland, and he was very impressed with that, and he was visiting them, and telling them that my mother was here, but I never contacted them, because I was so busy. I still have to do that, though. So they have a team there, on the ground of the -- the castle.

Q: Oh.

A: Yeah. Yeah, it is fantastic, and amazing how -- how that, you know, develops, yeah.

Q: I'm wondering if you could think back to when your -- you're still pretty young, and eating dinner perhaps, together, and the -- the discussions at the family meal, or just family discussions about politics, in general --

A: Yeah, yeah?

Q: What kinds of things were your mother and father saying?

A: Well, to be honest, we were not always together. My brother was in -- in what do you call it, college. And I was, of course, in another city, in Haarlem, as a nurse. A student nurse. And my sister was born in "35, so she was like five to 10 years old during that period, so she was at school. But we were eating in the -- in the living room, I remember that, no central heat in those days, because it was just not existing. The Germans stole anything, everything what was stolable.

So we had an -- a stove that was heated by coal, and it smelled horrible, so we had always the window open. And we cooked like tulip bulbs, and -- I have a list of -- of items that we -- we had in those days, because th-th-the stores were just empty. There was no food. And that was on purpose, to let us die out. Simple, you know. You just don't feed the person, so they have to -- to die. So you saw people walking around as a skeleton, because if you have no family that takes care, and you are by yourself, the only way to get stuff is go to the farm, and exchange like linens, or clothing, and then you got your food, so that's what we did on the bicycle.

Q: I see. A-And, I'm going back now to before the Germans came. What w -- did Jews live mixed into your neighborhood --

A: Oh, yeah.

Q: -- or -- tell -- tell us a little bit about that.

A: Okay, we -- we lived in -- like in the von -- von alka madalan, and there were family that was all Girl Scouts. Six girls, all very intelligent, and -- and all playing a musical instrument. I was drawn to that family so -- so much, because they had such a nice attitude, and they were so full of faith, like nothing could happen. They were -- they were not afraid at all. But I warned them, since I was already in that time, informed. I started in 1933 to smell something. I mean, you --

you didn't have a TV in those days, but if you went to the movies, there was news before the movie started, and I saw the -- the inclination of lots of legs, and lots of parading, big mouth speeches, you know, so I was already in -- in my heart feeling that's no good. Now, Holland was always neutral, in World War One was -- we were neutral still. We didn't expect them to get in -- against our rule that we were neutral, and we stayed that way. We made that very clear. The heck with us, that's their attitude. So our queen was warned on time, Queen Julianna and her kids went to Canada. I have pictures of those, too. My next door neighbor, Rost Von Tunningham, you will not believe that. One brother was with the queen, was always picked up with a horse and buggy, had his uniform with that big type of hat, like an admiral wears in those days. And the other brother was an NSB member. National Sas -- Socialist Bund. So that were two brothers in one family clashing. So was very important that you could trust each other. So I had his name on the list of people that would have been cckk. See, everything in Holland was --

Q: That would have been?

A: Killed. Shot. We went to the dunes, we were in Schevening, so that is all dunes, and sand and stuff like that, so in the dunes we had -- the Germans made those shelters. And then you would hear, dat da da dat da da da, someone was killed. You didn't know who, because you never get information, but if you wanted information, you knew people to get it from. I kept mouth shut.

Q: You said that you started seeing some of the news before the movies. What -- can you tell us more about why it worried you? You said you just had a bad feeling.

A: Too -- yeah, too much propaganda, too much big mouth, and provocation. Why would she do that to a -- a -- a person that is your friend? See, if you start to do that, then I start to think you are not my friend. I'm very sensitive person. If -- if I have a person in front of me that talks negative, I have an intuition, watch out. That is just me. I was born with that. And I could have

been even psychiatr -- what do you call it, someone that looks in the future, because I get always in the mail, people in that field. Now, I'm not stupid, if they say I do a free reading, and then at the end you get a form to fill out, 20 dollars, I send that form nicely back without the 20 dollars, because in the beginning they said it was free. I'm not that -- you -- so that was in those days, too. I -- I have a very sensitive feeling about things.

Q: Was it something that you expressed to your parents in any way?

A: No. They didn't even know I was in the underground. We had even a soldier in the house, in my brother's room, yeah. But the soldier was nice. He was my age, so he almost fell in love with me. He asked me for a date. I said, "Listen buddy, you have that rotten uniform on. Do you think I'm stupid?" But he ale -- always came back from his farm in Hamburg with eggs, with butter, with that -- my father said, "Don't accept it." My mother said, "Uh-uh. I cook with it."

Q: So I'm trying to get a sense of how you became politically aware. Some of it is instinct, but you mentioned that your family is -- is a family full of very strong characters also. So, let's go back still to the time before the Germans have come. When you start seeing some news about the Germans, what are people saying? Whe-When are you starting to get very worried, or -- or how is that if you could just sort of explain that progression.

A: Okay. In the first place, I was a Girl Scout, in -- in -- in that time was girl -- Girl's Guide.

Course that's in Holland different. In 1937, I visited the boy's jamboree. That was in -- in Hilversum. I noticed there were no Germans, so I talked with the American. She w -- in those days, in Holland, you get English, you get German, you get French, if you're 11 years old. So I had contact with the American soldiers -- Boy Scouts, because I was impressed about their camps, their -- their tents, very efficient. Their equipment, like they had the water thing hanging, and that's what they got fresh water from. Their whole attitude appealed to me. And then, I was a

member of a hockey club. That is field hockey. That is British inclined. Then, of course, I was told you cannot do anything in the uniform, because that is -- that's poor British. So I alr -- already felt there is something fishy going on. Why is this forbidden, why is that forbidden? And it was not even war yet. And if you talk to a Dutch, forbidden means resent. You already start to.

In Holland you don't need a lawyer. If you have a handshake because you agree, that is the promise that you make, and you stick to that. You can trust a Dutch word. You cannot trust a German word. It's full of lies, it's full of promises because they want to mellow you. And we are not that way. We are very cautious. So when I saw that shelters were built, when I was told you cannot have lights -- bulbs, like this bright light, forget it. It had to be covered with blue, so the light would go straight down, it would never go outside your window. Now, everybody was taped -- had taped their windows, because ev -- we were bombed. See, if -- then the windows would not break, or it would just hang on the tape. So there were all kind of insinuations. Try to get tires for your bike, because rubber would not be available. It happened. Our bikes were having wooden wheels instead. The word hoarding, here in America, that's a bad word. I hoard. I hoard strange things, because you never know if you need it to use next time. And that's one part that they say, you know, in here. But that was happening in those days. You take things in the house, in case.

End of Tape One, Side A Beginning Tape One, Side B

Q: This is a continuation of an interview with Louise Segaar. Interview's being done on November 10", in the year 2000, at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. This is tape one, side B. So you -- y-you were accumulating really, evidence that something was going wrong.

A: We not only got very good information with the BBC, because of course, they had spies all over, already, in that time. But a -- as certain attitudes, like the next door neighbor with the NSB organization, who were against our government, and if you are very much for the queen, and you are in the military, and you take the oath of defending your country, you just don't take that, you fight back. Not necessarily with a weapon, but you can fight back with sabotage. We sabotaged plenty. So when it was the time for the Germans to go in Holland, they pretended that it was necessary, because they had to in-invade Great Britain. And we just broke the dikes, so the water was -- was all over the bolus. You know, the Netherlands is much lower on the sea level than this country is, so we were used that the water would flow down, and you just cope with the fact that you cannot grow anything any more, and everything run -- drowns. But the point was that the German heavy equipment could not go through, see? So the Germans were forced to go over in the air. It was wall to wall airplanes. And they came with -- what do you call that in -- in English.

In -- in German is -- it's falsesharem. Parachutes, parachutes. So, it was a nice target to -- to -- from the ground up, to kill those parachutes when they were coming down. I always felt sorry, because those people were their own age, like me. And why would you kill an -- a young boy that is forced to do something he doesn't want to do? Because, I talked with them. We -- we had the -- you know, that we were on the beach, and I would sneak up on -- on the one guy, he had lots of hair, all black hair. And we -- we made a bet -- the girls around me, you don't dare. So I sneak behind, and I did like this over his hair. And then he would go, "Oh, what are you doing here?" In German, huh. I said, "Don't worry, I'm just -- you know, I'm having a bet, and I won." Now you can see what a crazy kid I was. So we had talks, and then they -- he said, well, don't fear us, because we are just in the army, and if we don't do it, what we are supposed to do, we get killed in our -- our own country. So I found out a lot from them. Besides, I had a girlfriend --

that was after the war, who had a castle in Germany, and she said, "When I was on my own grounds, going a certain direction, there was an -- a guard telling me to go back in my castle, because there was something fa -- fishy in that area." Where the smell came from? Concentration camp. So they had concentration camps all over, and the German population was not supposed to know about it. So, in -- in a way, I -- I always said, I feel like I hate the Germans. I cannot say that, because in every country -- now here, with the politics, you have Republicans, and you have Democrats, also divided. It's incredible. So it is in every country that way. But you had to be careful, because how did you know?

Q: Did -- did your father ever consider, as war drew near, getting you out of the country, perhaps going to the United States, or --

A: No. At that time you had no chance. You was -- see, you need a permit. Everything is done by the government. The government could not be trusted either, was very divided. The queen had to leave. Many people of the government had to escape. So, the government that ti -- that time, was already corrupt. You need a passport, you need a visa, you need permission, you need a sponsor.

That all hinders you. So we sp -- we were sponsored after the war, because we could prove that he could come. But if I would dow -- put down on my application, Nazi, or member of that, do you think United States was crazy enough to -- to let me in? See? So -- and we had no intentions.

We -- we were ready to fight for what we had to fight. You mean -- I -- I would have been a -- a coward if I would have tried to get out. My job was to protect the people, like the Jews, like the gays, like -- what do you call those people? Gypsies. The Germans had the particular type of person that they did not like, and they were persecuted. So our job was to -- to get coupons so that we could buy food. To get the -- the word Jew off their chest. The -- the word Jew was printed on a star, and that was -- was sewed on -- on any -- any clothing. So if you went on the

street, you have to wear that. What we did was take it off, give them another piece of cloth, hide them. They were not allowed in the street any more. Now, yesterday was Kristallnacht. I never forget that either, because any store that belonged to a Jew was smashed in with rocks, with stone that they picked up from the street, because in Holland, every street is done with stones, you don't see concrete that much. And because my family is pretty religious, my -- my father's sister belonged to the Haranhurtus. Haranhurtus is a sect that is very religious, and -- and has a strong faith, and is very optimistic, and helps you. A person with a mental problem, for instance, would feel a lot better if you was in connection with the Haranhurta, because that's -- that was the way they were living. And so we knew a -- a watchmaker, I never forget that either. Now, my aunt lived in Utrecht, a separate city, and that poor family was stoned, and -- and the window was all busted, and people were helping themselves. All those watches were -- were in -- in the store, or clocks, whatever, they just dragged it out. The man was just robbed death. Just because he was a Jew. So I was very res-resentful, and I tell you, when the war was finished, we let them pay. We let the Germans pay before they went back to -- to the German, to their own country.

We let them walk, we didn't provide any transportation. Now, that is about a three hour walk.

And we had the girls who had been dating, put on the table, on the street. We threw them with rotten eggs, rotten tomatoes, and we shaved their hair off completely, to show everybody that girl is a trait -- betrayed -- for a threat. No, we were very mean. But see, you are made that way. You cannot swallow all that crap.

Q: Tell us a little bit more about Kristallnacht. At -- you mentioned what happened in Utrecht, d- do --

A: All over.

Q: B-But --

A: In Hague.

Q: [indecipherable] you describe what happened -- yeah --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- around where you lived?

A: Yeah. Th-They threw rocks in -- in people's windows of stores, in private windows. I don't know what else to say, I mean that -- that was on the ninth of -- of November, so if you say you try to forget, I cannot forget it, it's like it happened yesterday.

Q: Did you yourself stay in that night, or did you go out and watch?

A: I wanted to see it. I had no fear. I still have no fear. In those days my brother was like Ann Frank in my father's office. My father belonged to the RNVB, that is here, triple A, similar. So he helped motorists in trouble, and stuff like that, and my father was a secretary. Now, I'm 80 now, but I don't look 80. My father at that time, if you were 16 until 50 I think it was, you was not allowed on the street, you would be picked up and transported to Westerbork. Westerbork was a city close to the German border. You would get stripped from your clothing, and they would give you another ID, and you was then transported to a factory in Germany. To heck with that. So, we -- we got food every day to my brother. My father went once to his office, and it was very foggy that day, and a German shouted in his ear, ""Toomshta shoengain." So my father woke up like, "Are you crazy, I'm not going to do that." So he ran -- we all good runners by the way -- around the shelter in -- in that fog, and he was shot at. He heard, you know, the soldier shooting at him. My father made it at home, and he said, "Get me under the -- under the floor." So we did that. Of course, no-nobody came at the door, because they didn't know, in that fog, where he was anyway. But that was the last. We learned our lesson. So I found that out later -- course I was in - - in the hospital that -- that time, and in those days you didn't tell each other those things,

because you would not worry, or make a person worry, because I would not have stayed in the hospital, I would have stayed home to protect. So I found that out after the war was finished. So we -- we had lots of things to tell to each other.

Q: Tell us about when your brother -- y-you basically described your brother being in hiding, but when did your parents put him in hiding?

A: That is what I don't know.

Q: Oh.

A: They -- see they don't -- or maybe they said it, but is one ear in, one ear out. But I do know that when I was on vacation, or I had reason to leave the hospital, that I and my mother went with a pot with food. Now, you cannot keep that warm, huh, but anyway he got his food, and then we exchanged news with him. I think he had a radio. I think my father provided that. And of course, you had to do it in a way that the other people on -- in that office were not aware, because you never knew of -- if there was a traitor in that office. But since my father had an high position, they had respect for him.

Q: So where exactly was your brother hiding?

A: In -- in that office --

Q: In the li -- in the office?

A: -- in -- in the center of The Hague, Barkstrout.

Q: Just in the office, or was he under --

A: In no --

Q: -- was he behind a closet, or --

A: Yeah. The office -- just like in Ann Frank, Buchen had a -- an -- a fake door, with the book thing, and then you would swivel that around, and then he was hiding. But see, that was normal.

In those days, your -- you had to think about something, you know, to -- to protect.

Q: How old was he at that point?

A: Well, he is two years younger than I am. So if in 1940, I was 20, he was 18.

Q: So at one point you went away, you were doing your work, or your education, and you came back, and your brother was in hiding.

A: Uh-huh.

Q: And you didn't ask a lot of questions. You eventually saw him, but -- but that's just how it was.

A: Yeah. Because he had, of course, only the news what he -- we gave him. But since my father was listening to the BBC, and I was involved with scouting, and other things, I mean, you just -- you just had to learn what was going around you, otherwise you could not function. I mean, I was a student nurse, in a way, but in that hospital were plenty people also in the underground.

Now, for instance, one day I had the TBC patients. They need fresh air, so they were in the yard.

So that ward was -- was empty, and I got this guy running to me, "Hide me, hide me." A Dutch person. I says, "Go on, go on in the bed, don't move." Then the German comes right behind him.

"Did you see anyone?" Again, I stood like this. I said, "Do you want to get TBC? I didn't see anyone." Go eyeball to eyeball. In German. So he understood what he had to deal with. So he -- he looked with respect all of a sudden. First he looked like ch, another woman, like most men do anyway. But I had no intention to let him in. My intention was put my foot out, and then he would stumble over it, and I would jumped on his back, and he would not be alive out that door.

That was my intention. So we were pretare -- prepared. So then he -- he ran to the other end of

the hall, because he couldn't get any -- and this guy said, "Is it okay?" I said, "Keep mouth shut, I will tell you." So I had to find out first if everything was okay, and then we had the cellar, and we put him in that cellar. But the point was, in that time, we did not know the director of that hospital, if he could be trusted. So everything was very risky, and you had to be very careful. But I thought, well, if he goes in that -- in that basement with other people, then th-the -- the principal should be okay. Because he could find that out, if he was the -- the good type of principal.

Q: Why do you think your parents put your brother in hiding, and -- a-and not you?

A: I was not in danger. I was a girl. I was a tomboy girl, and people say, "Oh boy, you have to be careful with her." Because I could climb on -- on the -- on the rainpipe to reach the roof of your house, and I beat the -- the boys of my age to pulp. They had to respect. I was a real nasty, because you get that way. If a boy is telling you you cannot do this, you cannot do that, I proved to them I could do it. That was the funny thing. And still, my next door neighbors are what you call skinheads. Th-the -- the boys in the 20's.

Q: Now?

A: Oh yeah, they live right behind -- beside me. So they were using my yard like so what, you know, it's j-just an old woman. So they play baseball, and -- and whatever, and I picked up the balls and didn't return it to them. And then they would yell bloody murder, like saying words I better not repeat -- repeat in there. And one day I had enough of it, and I know karate, I did all -- all kinds of things in my life, all kinds of courses. So, I wrapped my legs around the guys hip, very tight, couldn't shake me off, and mur -- you see my nails? That is really like a cat. So five nails on this side of his back, five nails on this side of his back. He had no shirt on. The blood was coming out. "Ow." You should have heard him. He could not sleep for five days on his back. And that was the time they didn't play ball either. Was finished. They still are not looking

at me. They are not looking at me, they are scared to death. Now they are now 25, in the meantime, and whatever age, but no, y-you got to show respect. In -- in -- in Holland, also, I was followed by a guy in the dunes once, and I knew there was something in his eyes that I did not like. So, I went around that shelter, and I ran, ran, ran, and I outran him. I have third -- third class medal in racing with eight other high schools from The Hague. And I have that someplace, too.

So I -- I was good in -- in -- in track and field. I was team leader in my hockey team, and they were also all in the underground. But see, you don't talk about that. In those days, you played hockey. And if a guy would ask you for a date, I would not accept, just to be on the safe side. I did date, though. I mean, I was not that -- you know. But it was amazing that the guys I liked were all killed. They -- they went over to Belgium, and France, over the mountains, the Pyrenee to France -- to -- to Spain, and they never reached England. And I found that out, too. But, you know, that -- that is the way things happen. I mean, I was careful, I could have been killed sev- several times. Th-There was a V -- V2 for instance, that is a kind of a small type of missile, two streets from my house. Now, you can imagine that you have that here. Some failed, went back where they came from. One shell landed in the roof of my house, right through my bedroom, and I was hiding under the bed, because I was told the mattress will put -- be your protection. So I crawl out, and there it is, big shell, right through the roof. So we could not repair that at the time, because there was nobody to do it. We had to move. The rain was just pouring through. Oh, and then the day that -- that we had the invasion, I was on vacation, and five o'clock in the morning - - I never forget that either -- a huge plane goes really diving in the street, between the trees, not even the tops of the trees, but half of the trees, over the street, and -- and -- and -- and bombing the -- the barracks that were on the end of that street. Now, they had horses. We all came out in pajamas and stuff. I saw horses heads, legs, tail. Soldiers without a head were still walking, in a

daze, of course, and then they dropped. I-It was so terrible to look at it, I can never forget that.

So that was five o'clock in the morning, and that was a holiday, like we have here. In -- in -- in -- in Europe, you called it Poppy day. We all walk with -- what is that, there is a red --

Q: Carnation?

A: No, it's a red, big flower. Poppies. You had poppy fields in Great Britain, also.

Q: Poppy? It's a poppy?

A: A poppy, yeah.

Q: Yeah.

A: But there is another word for it, too. To remember the veterans.

Q: Mm-hm. So, after the bombing that day, wh-what are some other memories that you have from the invasion?

A: That was the -- the actually visual experience, because in that time, I had my vacation for maybe four days. And you are not that stupid to go on the street and go back again, because the Germans took -- took care of that immediately. There was no chance. But you listened. You listened to neighbors, you listened to -- to the people that you are -- excuse me -- that you are playing hockey with. We had to stop that for awhile, because we were too sad. I mean, you are just not in the mood. I-It -- it is too -- it's too -- too -- too emotional. Yeah. And of course, we had that -- what do you call that here? It's funny, sometimes I -- I forget the word. I know exactly it is -- it is like this. A funinis. What is that in English? Isn't that stupid? A cell, where you -- you -- you keep prisoners in.

Q: A cell.

A: A cell, yeah, yeah. So that was close by also. And you [indecipherable] is at that, because that was still in good hands, so called. But --

Q: Well, when -- after the bombing, di -- we -- did Germans appear on the street? Sort of taking charge on the street?

A: Not -- not -- no, not yet, but it was the NSB, that was the -- the party that was what you call collaborating with the Germans. So they send signals, or they called, or whatever. This happened, that happened, and the Germans were very pleased, you know, that everything went the way that they hoped it would go. But the NSB was not, of course, believing that there was another party to watch them, and so they lost -- they lost casually, their people, too. And that was because we were very active. We didn't get no for an answer.

Q: When you say you were on vacation, vacation from?

A: That was a religious holiday, like --

Q: [indecipherable]

A: -- Easter. In that time was Pingstrund. You don't have that here. I never found out what it is here.

Q: Okay, and --

A: And then, on the bike, went back to the hospital. There was no bus. There was no train.

Everything was on halt. So you used the bike. And that's why I could not have the Germans to take my bike, that was it. And I told him that. That's -- that's my -- and of course, you think, well, can't she just go for two hours without hindrance? Of course I was hindered, but in those days, a nurse was respected. You needed a nurse. I had an old aunt, and she was in -- in ho-house for old people. We went to visit her, to bring food. That is just the way you do it. You don't let your friends die. You work the hell out of you. I worked day and night.

Q: What was your mom doing at this point?

A: My mom was not strong. Physically, when she came from Indonesia, she was what you call -- she di -- didn't have a particular illness, but I think that she was close to diabetes. She died at 83, and my father died when he was 94, but I have my father's system. And so I don't fear -- I mean, I don't fear if I die, period, because that is a normal way, to accept the way things go, but I always wanted to be sure I don't die in an accident, or that I don't die because someone else wants my life. I j-just fight, you know? I'm -- I'm just that way. So maybe that is -- that is a kind of a vitamin.

End of Tape One, Side B

Beginning Tape Two, Side A

Q: This is an interview with Louise Segaar, conducted by Katie Davis, on November, 10", the year 2000, at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. This is tape number two, side A. When the invasion happened, you described the -- the bombing, and the dead animals, and the dead soldiers. How -- what happened next? When -- when was the next time you felt a presence of German soldiers?

A: Gosh, you -- you meet them --

Q: O-Or -- of the, as you said --

A: Yeah, you meet them.

Q: Mmn-hm, okay.

A: And as I said, I have no fear. They had the big mouth, but if you show that you have respect for them, then they are decent. I rather would meet German, than I would meet a Jap. A Jap is ne -- ne -- nasty. And a Jap is what you call you could not trust. They were more sadistic. A German is not sadistic. They do certain things because they feel that's necessary to do. But they would not -- of course, in -- in -- in -- in a cell, they would torture. There's several ways to do that, but they got that back. So they found that out. If you do that to me, you get the same thing back.

Q: How did you understand at that point what the Germans were trying to do in your country?

A: They were trying to get the country, and get at -- to Germany, an annex, okay. Because of the fact that we were so obnoxious, and stubborn and far, far back, it was more difficult for them to apprehend -- they didn't expect our resistance. So instead, they stole. That was their big thing.

So, we did anything to get their -- not to steal. So we hide it. In the stores, no food. We had food, but they didn't see it. We had restaurants. On the window, in German, "Deutsch nicht schwahan." That means, German not spoken. So they could go the restaurant, they would not get

coffee, they would ge -- not get a lunch. They would drop dead with us looking at them with pleasure. I saw once, one of those Germans on the floor, kicked down by a bunch of men. Now, he was literally pummeled against his head, on top of his chest. He could not survive. But that is the Dutch way. If you do that to me, you get 10 times worse. So that spreads around. The Germans did not do too much, what you call killing, because they got it back 10 times worse.

Q: You're describing individual, sort of, acts of resistance --

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: -- that people.

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. Oh.

A: Cause you see it. You have to see it if you -- if you want to eat, you have to go out of your house and shop. Oh, I tell you. I saw in -- in -- I was once that -- that -- that was another place that I was in the staff of a -- a house for older people, that was close to Arnhem, and of course, you -- you could not use the bike, you had to go with -- with the train. But I was always tempted, but of course, you had to be careful. They were kicking, on the station, little kids, big, big German guy, six foot, with boots, rifle. They would use their -- the butt of the rifle to kick it's -- in -- in those cattle wagons, for the Jews. And oh, I tell you, my hands were itching to get on the back of that German, and scratch his eyes out. But, there were too many. So you got to be not stupid. Go back in the -- in the -- in the -- in the train, and go the way you have to go. But that is what I, after the war, told the Germans, "You are bastards. I have no respect for you for what you did. And don't tell me it didn't happen, either." I was here a tour guide. I did a course, I was in the bus with the Germans in the front of the bus, and the Dutch in the back of the bus. So in Dutch, I told the Dutch, I said, "Hi, I speak Dutch." The German said to me, "You speak

German?" I ignored him. I looked over them. And that's what I said in Dutch, to the people on the back, and they were clapping. Good luck, Louise, we listen to you. Don't pay attention. Now that was in the American bus. I shorted them. That is my revenge, in a nice way. But I couldn't help myself, I had to do it that way.

Q: Be-Because, before any of this happened, how did you feel about Germans? Way before Kristallnacht, or --

A: As friends. As friends. I feel you have to be friends in -- in every way. As a Girl Scout, it is international, so you meet Swedish, you meet -- in those days, were no Russian, either, but I met from all countries, and I corresponded with every country. I had to correspond it in Korea, in -- in Thailand, cause I'm interested in how their culture is. I -- I -- I talked with Muslim, in the airport where I was working, I met a Muslim on his little carpet, in front of my door, I had to step over him. And I told him, how come that you have to pray five times a day, and how can you work? It doesn't make sense to me, but that's their religion. So I'm curious, and I'm joking. I always see something funny behind something that is not supposed to be funny. But that is the way it happened. I met Lord and Lady Bayton Powell. They were the founders of the girl boy -- th-the Boy Scouts, and they are British. So that was in Addelboaden, in Switzerland, when I was finished with high school, and my father treated me, he -- he paid for the trip. And I went with A-Ake Larous, that is Swiss and French Girl S -- Girl Scout, Girl Guides. Little kids 12 years old. Di di di di, di di di di, di di di di, in French, you know. And then you was put in little pup tents, like the military, but you could not put your finger against th-the -- the cloth, because the rain -- and it was always raining, would make drips, you know, it would drip. So, of course, they did that, to find out it if that was true. And then I was -- I always had a fear for heights, so I went always like a dog, over the mountain -- the Mont Blan, for instance. I went on my fours, and they

were always laughing at me. There goes doggie Lukie. But you learn. And the Alps were beautiful. It was nothing -- and it was always fog, because it is high. So you had always clouds around, and I al-al-al-always wanted to grab in the cloud, to see if my -- my hand would be wet.

So you can tell I had crazy ideas. But we -- we had lots of fun. Oh boy, did we have fun, and the food was delicious. It was Swiss food. But there was no German. They were not allowed. So, in those days, *33 - "34 - "35 - "36 - "37, you could feel the whole atmosphere, wherever you went.

Q: Mm-hm. A-And situate us in 1940, when the invasion happens. How old were you, and what are you doing? You have said a couple times that you are already working in a hospital, but what is your status? Are you still being educated?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay, just -- if you could situate us.

A: I was a student.

Q: Okay.

A: See, I'm born in 1920, so in 1940, I happen to be 20, and then gradually -- it never happens at once, it goes gradually, so you hardly notice it until you wake up and think, uh-uh, there is something bad. And you get curious in a way, because that's what I s -- also told those Germans, I -- Lalways like to know what is the reason you think a certain way? Now, I always wanted to be a student in psychiatrist, or whatever, but I'm -- I'm always intrigued to find out what makes you do the things what you do? And don't you have any regret? Do you have a conscience?

What do you expect after this, from what you do? I had free talks with them. So I never had been arrested, or told you go with me. They left me like I had some strange aurea, or angel like thing around me, because I was too strong for them. And all -- I always had that.

Q: You said you'd have free conversations. How would those come about, usually?

A: I cannot remember really. The main thing was that they were my age. They were just also students, in whatever field. Very pleasant, very decent, very polite. I spoke Berlinner German, that is what they told me, I don't know, but I mean that's, you know, like perfect. Like Oxford English. That's what I learned, Oxford English, because the teacher came from Oxford. So he talked like that, too. And the French was like Parisian French. So you go to Paris, I have been in Paris, and they don't understand you. That's the funny part. Par-Pardon moi? Pardon moi? They say in French. What do I say funny, is that Russian? So then they turned around like I'm an idiot.

But that was the way it goes, and then we talked mostly about things that happen in that time. So about what you eat. In those days, the word sex never came up. That is what I thought later, that is funny. In this country it's nothing but sex. Every day you hear about that, or you see it on TV.

Over there you had no time to think about that, because there was no way, if the boys are hiding, the men are in offices, where do you get that stuff? And obviously, the Dutch are not lesbian. No way. So, I mean, that is how you talked about, mostly.

Q: So, do you remember any of the names of these young men?

A: No, never. We didn't exchange names.

Q: And where might -- what's the one example of where you might meet them?

A: Was no sense to do it. No, no, it was not what you call -- what is that word?

Q: An appointment?

A: Yeah. It was spontaneous. You meet a person, as a group, group girls, group boys, and that can be on -- on the beach, or it can be in a museum, it can be, I mean, wherever you -- you -- you meet, and wherever a person wants to talk. Because this is not always that you get luck. They -- they sometimes just walk away from you, because a German in Holland, after all, was very weird. What does a German do in the war time -- that is an enemy. So you don't speak with

enemies. But I mean, and you -- you had the -- I-like I said before, you had Germans, and they -- they were shot at themselves. So they were eager to talk with us, so that we could feel that they were not enemies, but wi -- they were forced to be an enemy. That -- that was the fascination that I always felt. So I always said, "Well, after the war, you're still my friend." But see then, an NSB-er would not approve that. So you had to be careful in that group, that you was not with an NSB-er. As a matter of fact, when -- when we were as Girl Scouts in the woods, and we -- we listened letzer ramaphone in Dutch is it -- where you play --

Q: A record player.

A: A record player, okay. We had the record player, with Irish dances, Scottish dances, and we -- we were just doing that as a pleasure, as -- as a meeting on the -- that you -- that you learn something. But then, one day, there was a group of those NSB girls. Of course, they were aggressive, and said to us, "You are not supposed to listen to that." So we said to them, "Who tells you to say that we are not listening? We are if we want to." So then they started to fight.

And I still remember I had a girl with a hand on her hair, I twisted her hair -- I still have a whole bunch of that -- and -- and poked her on the floor, and hit her, and kicked her, and they found out that we were not sissies. So they -- they disappeared in the woods, hollering, yelling. And we still listened to the music, and we still were dancing. Can you believe that you have that here? Oh yeah, w-we -- I learned a lot, and I had not even studied karate yet. I did that here, just for the heck of it. But our fists -- I learned if you have a lot of rings, you can do more damage than there -- no rings, so we had always rings on. Well that's -- that's a certain weapon that the Germans used, to club you down. They had the -- the metal thing, you know? Cruel, but so what.

Q: When you were speaking with them, do you ever remember -- h-how do you -- how did you feel? Do you ever remember feeling afraid, when -- you know, this guy has a lot of power, he could arrest me if he felt like it.

A: Well, that's what I say, I had no fear. And they were not that type. They were s -- just regular soldier boys from farms, or nice families. They were decent. So you -- you -- you -- you could say anything you want, because they would not do it. And that's what I felt with them. They have no intention, because they rather talk with us, than their own creeps who were so fanatic.

Kill, kill, kill. They were not that way. Otherwise, they would not be on the beach, period. But they had to be away from all the nasty stuff that they got back in their barracks. See?

Q: S-So did meeting some of these boys change your mind at all about the Germans? Make them in a way more human?

A: No. No, no. I told them from the beginning, if they ask me for a date -- now, you have to understand, you have that uniform. If I get caught in that uniform, I know what to expect. So please, don't pretend I'm stupid. And then they left. They say, "You are right." But if I was forced, they would not have had me alive, because I am not being forced to do what I don't want to do. See, that boy that we had in the house was forced. We had to.

Q: Tell us aboo -- a bit about him.

A: He -- he was --

Q: How -- when did he come?

A: -- blonde, he was young. I think he was 22. He had a farm close to Hambush, and if he was only -- if he alwa -- always came back with something. Butter, eggs, whatever. And my father was, of course, mad. He didn't want to accept it. I says to my father, "Don't be a stupid, that is eating stuff. Who cares where it comes from?" But, he had always girlfriends -- of course, in that

age, it's understandable, who wanted to talk with him. So my father would say either he was not home, or my father would not understand the person that called. He ha -- said it is the wrong number. I had once a girl in front of the house, and I stood opposite her, I said, "Do you like to fight with me?" So she understood that I was not a doozie, either. So he didn't have girls coming to the house, we warned him. Don't even attempt. You are just tolerated. And you will be happy that you still living, because we could have cut your head off, put it under the house. Who was to find that out? You could have been hit on the way to the barracks. There is no proof.

Q: Do you remember his name?

A: No. Absolutely not.

Q: S-So how did he show up one day?

A: Well, the army sent him. See, everybody had to have a soldier, because there were not enough barracks. And maybe it was to spy. To see what kind of family he would live with. So, you know, you're not stupid. If you have an enemy in your house, you are very careful. So I don't know if my father was listening to the BBC. In the meantime he left, because of course, they have to work, they o -- they don't sit in -- in a small room, six by six like a prison, and do nothing. It's a 22 year old, full of pep, and -- and -- and likes to do all kind of physical stuff. But, I mean, you just had to tolerate. And he -- he would come any time of the day, what pleased him, and you had to tolerate that. Now, our house w -- most houses in -- in Holland, has a stairway. So you -- you -- you have the living room, and then you go upstairs to the -- to -- to the bedrooms, that's the way it -- it -- it is all built there. So, we didn't have to meet him, if he stayed in his room, and we stayed downstairs, there was no way, you know, unless he wanted to talk. But he -- he was, of course told by his superiors, don't ming -- don't mix. Strictly observe. That -- that's --

Q: Did he ever eat with you?

A: No. No, he ate in the barracks. The only way that he was with us, was to sleep, yeah. He -- he was showed souvenirs of stuff. I said, I'm sorry, don't want it. He asked me out, I said no. Just like that. But he understood that. He was a very nice boy. I wish I could have dated him then.

Oh. But you got to resist it. I had to.

Q: That's interesting.

A: Yeah.

Q: So he was an attractive young man?

A: Oh, very. Germans are a very attractive -- no, really. They have the -- the type of jaw. They ha -- blonde hair. They have that smile full with white teeth. I mean, I'm -- I'm not, you know, what do you call it -- maybe I'm a -- a witch, but I have my emotions, I have my feelings, and I'm always in love. I'm in love with everybody.

Q: That's really interesting.

A: But don't -- don't tell me you cannot do this, because then I say, "Aha, you watch. I do it." And I make it that I do it. And that's the only reason that I'm still living, probably, because they thought she -- she has something about her, you better not fool around with her. I had an -- in my karate school, a guy -- now, at the time I was 65, I was the oldest of that -- in -- in Foster's High School. I made a side back kick. He could not come back in two weeks. My teacher told me that.

I said, "But I didn't know that," because you're not supposed to look, you just kick whatever you can kick. And if he was in my way, tough with him. But I didn't know that. So, you know, you use your elbow. How? You use your hands for taking this thing, so that you have no -- no breath.

You learn those things. We had a -- a survival course in the Netherlands, with -- with the Girl Scouts. And boy, did I work that out beautiful. Because you practiced on each other. Now, if you -- if you went too far, you would hear something. The teacher would then say, "Oh, you good. Y-

You -- you -- you graduate." If that's the word. So, I mean, that's why my grip is still so firm. If Ihave a hand, they say, "Gosh, are you 80?" They didn't believe that. Because that is still in you.

Q: Did you ever feel that any of your talks, or relationships, which sounded pretty specific, but did they ever -- did any of them kind of get out of hand, and you b -- start to like someone too much? Whether it was a -- a -- a young man, or even someone older, but -- but somebody who was supposed to be the enemy --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- but that you perhaps started really liking them too much?

A: No, no. You didn't go that far.

Q: Okay.

A: No, no. No, no. You did not make yourself emotional.

Q: Okay.

A: If that person was nice, that was it, the end of the story. It was too dangerous. Can you believe he was involved? Then -- then your -- your mind is different. That's -- that's the whole thing.

You -- you can be very strong, in a certain way, but you got to keep that path. Because, if you go another way, you are lost.

Q: But how did you know that? I mean, how did you know?

A: Instinct. Survival instinct, I think. Because I have been very sexy looking. And I have been approached many, many, many times. In -- in that -- oh, I forgot the train, that was another moment, di -- da -- I was looking in, a-and -- out of the window, and this soldier comes with his hands beside my cheek, against the window, and tried to kiss me. In those days you had those shoes with high heels, like a pin. So I go very slowly down, while he was still trying to get my cheek, and I took my shoe, and I whacked him against his you know what, banana. So he went

backwards on his back, and was yelling, "Ow, ow, ow," because I hit the right spot. And in the meantime, I went da da da da, dat da, dat da, to the other section of the train where were passengers. So he was finished yelling bloody murder, and then he went also in that, to find me.

But he has never seen my face. So I sat there between people, looking around like what? Who?

Me? Don't know nothing. So he -- he looked at me, but he didn't know that was me.

Q: And you kept a straight face?

A: Of course. You cannot give yourself away. But I -- when he left, I laughed my head off. I laughed that the next two passenger looked at me like I was [indecipherable]. Then I told that person. He said, "You dared to do that?" That's all I heard, ""You dared to do that?" I said, "I dare, if I have to."

Q: Well, a question I have for you is why -- why do you think you dared, or some -- many people dared, but many people did not -- didn't -- why do you thi --

A: Well, not everybody's strong. See, if you have a strong mind, it is -- it has to do with la -- religion, and my family has a strong -- we have P-Presbyterian, and -- and you cannot tell me you want to become a Jew, or you want to be -- that is just not the way. You have to believe first.

And if right is right, and wrong is wrong, that's just it. You don't ask questions, you live with that. And that's why my f -- my father's family was also very strong, and were with this religion, or whatev -- but we stuck to that, and it gives you inner strength. And I have never had fear. I tell you, I have no fear for biting dogs. I had once -- I was nine years old, and my father visited a friend, and he had a dog in a -- ina -- in a cage, and in Dutch, beware of dog. So, my father was there, and I looked around, right inside. And the dog was not doing anything. So I was there, my arms around the dog's head, and I kissed the dog. I was so -- so happy with that dog. So my father was finished, he look for me, and the owner of the dog got a fit. He said to me, "Don't you

read that sign?" I said, "Yeah, I read it. So what?" Your -- I was nine years old, already so -- and the dog did nothing, absolute nothing. So my father said to that man -- maybe it was my father's friend, he said, "Don't make such a fuss about it. She is good with him. She is -- she is always good with animals." And I had once a dog that attacked me, and I had my fist -- now, you always have your thumb inside, not outside, but inside, and I put my fist in his mouth. Not, then the teeth cannot reach each other, so he was stuck. And then I grabbed him with the back, and I lifted him up, I said, "Don't try it again, buddy." So I took my hand out. Boy, did he go fast. He was scared. Because I did that, nobody else had done it. So that -- that is the way I am. If -- if you -- if you make me scared, I'Il let you know I am not scared, for whatever reason you tried.

End of Tape Two, Side A Beginning Tape Two, Side B

Q: This is a continuation of an interview with Louise Segaar, it's November 10", in the year 2000. We're at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. I -- I'm -- maybe I'm backtracking a little bit, but I wonder if you can tell me a little bit more about the role faith did play in your family, h -- when you were growing up, when you were younger, how did you learn about it from your mother and father?

A: Attitude. If they -- if they tell us not to do certain bad things, you listen. And their example is a fact. If -- if you beat a person, you know it's bad, but there must be a reason for doing that. So why would you do it in the first place, unless you are provoked, or attacked, or whatever reason.

But that's the only way you are allowed to do that, because the Bible says, love thy neighbor. It's so simple. But people don't follow that up. And that's why you get all that mess in the world.

Why -- why would I be mad at the Chinese person, because the Chinese government is doing this and that and that? That poor Chinese person doesn't know a thing about the government, and the

government tells that person, you shall only have one child, you shall only have two childs -- children. For what? Because the government is influencing. And I had the -- the Indonesian government, I had the Dutch government, I had the German government. Nobody tells me what I can or cannot do, if they don't set their own sample. I never go to church, either. I have been to church. One time I had a lady, her dress was way here so that you could see her things. Big hat with animal skin type of thing. Then my minister, he went around his wife's back fooling around. So when I was working in National airport, he comes one day to my desk. "Louise, do you remember me?" I says, "Yeah, I do." He says, "You know what happened?" I said, "No." He said, "My -- my oldest boy got a car accident and died." So I grabbed his hand, I said, "Is that punishment what you did to your wife is now back to your son?" And he looked at me like, "Did you know what I did then?" I said, "Yeah, I know everything," I said, "but keep mouth shut." He was very impressed. Ha-Ha-Had a gorgeous wife, Barbara. So, no -- nobody is perfect, but you cannot feel superior either, because you don't have the right to be. But if a person is suppressed, I fight for that person. And I don't have to ask anybody permission. If -- if you get hit on the -- on the street, I help. I go out, and -- and get myself the dirty, with blood, or whatever. You feel that it's necessary, unless someone else is stabbing you back, and say, "She killed him." Then I fight. Because that happens a lot in this country.

Q: You said if s -- if someone's sup-suppressed, what was your sense of what was happening to Jews at that point, once the Germans moved in? I mean, where -- what did you think was happening to them?

A: They were warned. They were already told by the BBC that that would happen. Now, you can believe it, or you can say baloney. But if things happen, then you don't think any more that is baloney. It happened. And then you start to be careful, and you take measurements. You don't sit

back and wait, you act. And that is why, as a Girl Scout, the motto is, be prepared. That helped me a lot. As a nurse, you always -- you always protect the lesser -- sick minds, or sick body, or whatever, because you are the one is nursing that person. And you cannot turn your back to that.

It's your duty to fight.

Q: Can you remember back to your first contact with the organized Resistance?

A: The organized Resistance was already, the Girl Scouts. Because the leader of my troop was connected with the Red Cross. Now that's international. So they get information. In those days you had no facts, you had no -- there's no -- [indecipherable] goes with codes, by telephone. We -- we had, for instance, the alphabet in codes. If -- if -- if you sign, I -- you can sign with lights, blink, blink, blink. You can sign by sound, dit, dit dit dit, dit dit dit dit dit. We learned that, see?

With arm signals. I -- I used to be on a tree, I had the flag, I waved the flag, I would make signals to another part of the city.

Q: As a girl -- as a Girl Scout?

A: As a Girl Scout.

Q: But then later as a Resistance person?

A: As a Resistance -- you didn't need to use that -- tha -- this -- this was playing, you know? To learn.

Q: Okay.

A: But there you used other ways.

Q: Oh, I understand, okay. So it introduced you to the idea --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- of --

A: Yeah, yeah. But that was all with the Girl Scouts, and I started that when I was 11.

Q: Okay.

A: I started the hockey team when I was 11. It is a part of an educational program. You can play soccer, what I did, too. I s -- I told you I was wild. I did everything what a normal girl would not do. But I had that energy. I -- I had to get away with that, because I was bursting from energy.

And if I didn't beat my brother up, th -- I beat up something else. But th-that was to make -- just -- just to relieve yourself, perhaps.

Q: So you're saying that -- that -- tell -- tell me a little bit more about how the structure of the Girls Scouts, and the sports teams was sort of used. Not -- not necessarily exactly the way it was, but how was it used by the people who eventually ended up helping so many people?

A: Well, it -- it was a kind of conscience that you had. A -- a -- an -- a Boy Scout, and a Girl Scout is prepared. Your conscience says, if something goes wrong, you -- you -- you find a way to correct it. So, it is bettering yourself. We -- we had all those mottoes, we -- we were like a few minutes in -- in prayer. That is up to you, to the person to do that. You was not forced to do that, but that was just a way of -- of -- of what happened with the -- with the scouting movement. So, I mean, it -- it was normal, it was not particular odd thing, it was just the way it happened.

Q: I'm -- I'm just trying to imagine it though, so you're organized in the Girl Scouts, or y-you kind of inclined to be organized this way. When is the first time where -- or a first time that someone says to you, I want you to do this, this, and this, and you will be helping because of that -- like, how is it explained to you?

A: Okay, it was in a way that you had a choice. It was not like the Nazis did, you had to. You could do it. Lots of things we did to get a badge, for instance. You get a swimming badge, you get this badge, you get that badge, oh, my arm was full of badges. So that is a kind of giving a bone to a dog that does a trick. That's the way I feel it. But the leader was very good in that,

because she was, as a Red Cross person, aware that not everybody was capable. You -- you have people, they are not strong, you have people they are playing a coward, doesn't admit it. But that's the way they are. It's just their family structure is, or whatever experience they had in life.

And you feel well, don't worry about that person, that is just weak, you go on with a stronger person. And that's what I think happened. I didn't have to do it. I could turn my back, and not even talk about it, go home and -- and read a book. But then I would sit there with a book like they are doing things that I don't ha -- do, and I will do it. So, you put your book away, and go and say, "I'm here, I'm ready." Whatever.

Q: So, it was this woman, who was the leader --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- with the re-Red Cross connection.

A: [still have her name.

Q: Oh you do? What is her name?

A: Yes. We called her Rita. Now the first is -- the title is haupfrau, that is for you a strange, but that's leaders name, and Rita Burgenberra-Fonde -- Fondeyong.

Q: Say it one more time.

A: Burgenberra-Fondeyong. That is typical Dutch. You would not be -- understand. I think I have here pictures with Girl Scouts that I still have her on it. Let me see. This is [indecipherable].

Why don't you look at it? [indecipherable] are trying to open it, so all -- all with the escape to Canada. And this is Prince Banhurt, how he looks now. Let me see. Oh, here it is. This is her, and this is a Jewish girl, that's Hedda. And that's the family that lived opposite us, our -- our house, Hedda Ricardo. And I asked the Red Cross if she still was living. I have other people that I wanted to know, but they have never answered me. I have here all the names of this bunch, this

-- this the nurses. See, I was here, and that was the children's -- there was no Jewish person in there, but I wan -- and this -- this is me in Indonesia. Isn't that cute? And this is my mother with me. This is my mother, my grandmother, and my mother-in-law, at the day that I got married.

See, I got married by proxy, because my husband was already in Indonesia with the KLM.

Q: Oh.

A: And this -- this is then the oldest son with my parents. And he is from a Jewish -- a Palestinian soldier. So he looks Jewish. But I have never heard from him, he just denied the fact that we had ever a relationship, so what can you do?

Q: The son?

A: No, the father of my son.

Q: The father, oh.

A: The father of my son. Yeah. And this was my father-in-law. Now, he was in a Jap camp, and he had [indecipherable] with his wrists wrapped with bamboo wrapping, and then the branch of a tree, and his legs just above the ground. So he couldn't touch the ground, and that was done for hours. And when he came back to the Netherlands, he was a wreck. He had no -- no nerves any more, everything was like this, and we were constantly told, you are too noisy, too noisy, too noisy. He -- he was absolute ruined.

Q: Did he ever recover more?

A: No, no, he died the same way. You -- th-there is nothing you can do about it. This is my daughter-in-law when -- when she married my son. And we click like sisters.

Q: She's beautiful.

A: Yeah. And this is the KLM. Yeah. And there's my hockey team. And here the Brownies. And this is where you get your wooden shoes made. And you see, all nurse's stuff.

Q: S -- do you remember what the first thing she asked you, or you decided to do?

A: No. I have not the slightest idea, because so many things happened, and -- and that time is better not to write things down, because you never now who would find it. And my uncle, as I told you, was betrayed because he had said too much, so he was picked up at five in the morning, and go to Auschwitz. What -- I didn't know at that time, I found it out when I was on vacation.

And the Red Cross, after the war, gave my mother the possessions, like a pocketbook, or something, notebook, that was with his name on it. So everybody was crying, and I didn't know what to do. It was just such a shock, you know?

Q: If y -- ify -- if you don't remember a specific one, if you could just remember generally what it would be like, h-how would you -- how -- how would you communicate with your leader?

A: On the meetings.

Q: Okay. So when did you go to the meetings, what did you --

A: Well, any time that you could do it. Officially, see, in -- in the Netherlands, your school is also on Saturday, until about one o'clock, and then you go to -- to this -- to the meeting. And we had off on Wednesday afternoons, so whatever time you had -- of course, as a nurse, I was in another city anyway, but then you would contact people connected with the same scouting organization, in that's -- particular spot. But as a nurse, as I told you, I had two -- two shi-shifts, in those days the bombs were ru-running around like crazy, so I had no time.

Q: I-I-In -- if you could just give me some examples of kinds of things that you did. I mean, you've been doing that all along --

A: Uh-huh.

Q: -- but -- through the interview, but if -- if you could --

A: Well, I remember that I had a bunch of Jewish kids, and we -- we spent time to get their star off of their costume, and then we told the kids what would happen to them. And we would contact the parents of those kids, and they would approve. And we -- we gave them food, as I said, we -- we saved the coupons, and we would feed them. We would find homes where they could stay without that someone would be betrayed. So, it is a matter of making connections, and stick to those connections that you could trust. And if -- if one -- one child was then already under way to Great Britain, you would get another child instead. So it -- it was a matter of -- of planning, and timing, because one had to do this first, in order to do that. And it -- it was communication, and if you would hear something that was different, you would say that. I mean, if would be something being fouled up, because something happened unpredictable that -- that you didn't count on that would happen. That was your duty too, that you would say that, immediately, so that that person could change quick things around, but that -- that child would be still safe, see? So, i-it was, in a way, working together, absolute like sisters, that you could trust any person, without any hesitation. And if I would have found a person -- this -- this is for instance, my -- my uncle's death notice, then you would report that, and that person would get some -- I don't know what treatment, but they were kicked out. Because that person would be dangerous. But see, you had to watch everything. Any -- any suspicious action, word -- action, or thought.

Q: So you might be taking a child from where to where?

A: To England. That was the only way. England was the place where they would be, and then the

Q: Where was the child, though, when you got it -- at -- at a --

A: Ina house in Great Britain. And underway with a person that would lead them underground.

They were usually men, young men. And they spoke French and Spanish, that was a must. So, I have never found out how that happened, because I was not told, see? But I knew that they would reach their goal, because then from the BBC, you would hear that certain families had arrived safely. And then you would say ahhhhh, like that, you know? You would be so happy, because you -- you did something, that was accomplished.

Q: S-So you've actually been listen -- you were listening to the radio, and you heard the name, a family name, of someone that you helped?

A: Yeah, yeah. And then that -- that particular family was still in Holland. So they got their turn to go, and meet their kids there. It was very, very -- how shall I put that? It -- it was something that you didn't hesitate to do it. It -- it was something like sleeping, and eating, and drinking.

And if you had to work, okay, that was the first thing. I mean, as a nurse, I had to do that, what -- what the hospital told me to do. But in your spare time, you did things like that. You had no time to -- to play Monopoly, or whatever. It -- it was just to save as many lives as you could do that.

And you didn't ask any thanks in w -- in -- in return. I cannot remember faces, I cannot remember names. | got this little round thing to -- to thank, so what, you know? You have the inner satisfaction, that's all. I can live with it for the rest of my life.

Q: How long did this go on?

A: Until the war was finished. When we were liberated, they were still shooting. I remember I was meeting a tank, I planned to get on it, what I never could do, because it's o-overloaded with people. But left or right, th-the Germans were still shooting.

Q: How -- how -- describe if you can how you used your job as a nurse, sometimes, apparently --

A: You just did it.

Q: How did you do it?

A: Well, you -- you get assigned certain ward, a certain patient. That -- that was just that the hospital works with. And I have my memory with a guy that tried to get his hand under my skirt.

And I had a water pitcher to fill out his -- his glass, instead of the glass, he got it. So he was soaked wet, and I said to him, "You'd ha -- keep your mouth shut, cause that's what you deserve." So he was drenched, and then the -- the -- if | was a night nurse, the morning nurse would have find out naughty, naughty, naughty, but he didn't have the nerve to tell her that I did it.

Q: But you might get assigned a -- someone at the hospital, and would you eventually maybe help that person hide, or --

A: This -- this -- this is the ward, huh?

Q: Okay.

A: So you was assigned to a ward for children, or you was assigned to a ward with men. No, to be honest with you, I was 18, I think I was -- 19. I had never had a man nude. So you are put in a ward with nothing but nude, embarrassed guys. One had the banana like this, one had like a peanut, one had nothing. You know, and they feel bad about me, because I was a 19 year old, fresh kid that is supposed to touch the guy, and wash it. So, I mean, I learned with a big shock, like oh my God, what did I do now, you know? But you -- you -- you learn to just accept it, and - - and that's -- that's your job, you know? But is so [indecipherable], but you have to learn fast.

Q: So, bu -- would the children in the hospital ever be Jewish?

A: We had, in 1945, I was assigned to a ward with 50 babies. Those babies were underfed. You don't ask how, you know it happens. So, if they had no tattoo, it could be a Dutch baby. If they had a tattoo, you was aware that was a baby that was taken from a Jewish home, or from

Auschwitz. In those days, everything was chaos, unpredictable, you didn't know if the stories what went around was rumor or truth. But you had to do what the nurse is supposed to do. We had no coffins any more, for instance. Coffins were out of the question, because there was no wood. So we wrapped dead body in a cloth or paper, and -- and then it was -- if you know. Yeah, in my ward were many, many who -- who died, and was very emotional, but what can you do, you know, you're not God.

Q: But when you say yo-yo-you don't ask, but you know, I mean there's a good chance that a lot of those babies that were being undernourished, were Jewish.

A: That was not the rule, cause everybody in Holland was undernourished. If you was fat, I was supposed to be fat, okay? That has to do with the type of food, you only had soup. Anything what you ate was soup. And if you know medical structure of a person's body, it -- it sets in your -- in your skin, it sets in your nerves, it sets in your -- in your fat -- you call it edemish. You put a -- a thumb on someone's skin, and it would stay. So that means that is an impression of a person that has too much fluid in the body. And that was the only food you had anyway, so what can you do? I had pea soup, I had this soup, I had that soup, I -- but at least you had soup. You -- you -- you went out to the street, and get the leaves from the trees, cook them, that was soup. People don't understand that here, because you have so -- everything, you know? You have so much choice. When I went in the store after the -- the -- that we came from Holland, I couldn't believe my eyes. I said to my husband, "God, we should have had all that stuff during the war." Because the shelves were with all of those different brands of -- of food, and cans, and oh, what a choice you had. It was amazing. But so what? It was all vitamins, perhaps.

Q: How -- how did you feel, physically during the war?

A: Fantastic. Very s -- very strong. If you were sick, you had no chance. So that again, is in your mind, don't get sick, because then you're not effective. And, as a nurse, I chose that profession.

It sounds -- it sounds -- what is that word? Egoistisha --

Q: E-Egoist?

A: Egoistic. Self preservent. But that's the only place you got food. And really, I had farmers, they visited their -- their family when they were sick, and they were prepared to give us pancakes, so I had -- you know, your uniform is with white, huh? I had five pancakes here, and that's greasy stuff. So the -- just the -- the -- on uniforms, nothing but grease dripping, but nobody said anything, everybody was laughing, because you did it. And if someone said, "I hope I'm out of this." Oh, here. No a -- no questions asked. I was once in a place where you have the latrines, had the -- the bedpans. So I come in running, you always ran to, and then s-stapled up three, and -- and -- on each other, that's always the way you have to be strong. And th-the ward's head nurse, I hated her, but it was so funny. I tell you, I was laughing, and I dropped all those bedpans on the floor, because I got a fit from laughing, and that's me, you know, then -- and she stood there, a huge woman, six foot something, and really big. And she had both cheeks like this, and I asked her something. I'm -- I'm a nasty person, I asked her because I knew she couldn't talk. So, she opened her mouth with that yellow stuff coming out of her teeth from the egg, and she said, "Get back." I said, "I want to ask you something." I stood there, I didn't go out. I just put her on the spot. Oh, did she hated me. So I asked her the question, she could not answer, unless all that egg was first out. So I went back to the ward, I'm washing out the [indecipherable]. And I had curfew, you could not go out certain time, and you had to bay -- b -- be back in a certain time, too. Yeah, you stopping?

End of Tape Two, Side B

Beginning Tape Three, Side A

Q: This is an interview with Louise Segaar, conducted by Katie Davis, on November 10", in the year 2000, at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. This is tape number three, side A. You were talking some about the different kinds of things that you might do -- that you might get asked to do. Was there any pattern to it, or -- or how would y -- how would you -- what did you expect in a given week? That you would have something that you'd have to do?

A: We didn't expect nothing, because things happened which you didn't expect. Simple.

Everything was unpredictable. In -- in a war, you cannot plan anything. If you plan something, then something around you happens, and then you have to change, so you just live what you call day by day, minute by minute. And if nothing happens, fine, you was lucky.

Q: W-Would you ever be at the hospital, and -- and have someone come up and sort of get a message to you that someone needed to talk to you?

A: No, no, no, no. Because they knew that the hospital was my future. I mean, I was a student, you have to learn lots of things. You -- you are a involved with lifes, and medication. I mean, you could not be distracted from what actually the goal of your life was. And I felt that, as a nurse, you could use it for later, if the war was finished, for whatever purpose. I still have use for it, because it's the experience you get. I know how to treat it, I know how to treat that. I never walk to a doctor. So, it -- it is very -- you know, it -- it is -- it is a nice occupation, that you can use.

Q: That's actually interesting to me that you didn't get bothered when you were at work. So, there were some clear boundaries about what was safe, or okay, or --

A: No, no, because I -- I saw like a girlfriend went on her bike, from one point -- from -- of the city to another, and she got hit by -- by a -- an -- a shell, and what can you do? I mean, I didn't

even know she was there, but you hear that later on, you know, sometimes months later. But you -- you -- you can cry, but you cannot change it. So, it -- it was shocking. S-Saw some things that you didn't expect. So I -- I -- I hoped to -- to see her back again, but you never knew.

Q: Wh-Who in your life knew about what you were doing?

A: I would say the leader of this Girl Scout troop, yeah.

Q: Okay. And what was her name again?

A: Rita Burgenberra-Fondeyong. Let me see, I have something here, cause I didn't know if I needed this. I write everything down. Let me see where you are. There she is. Haupfrau Rita -- actually name is Maria Katarina Burgenberra-deyong. You can keep this, or -- or copy it. She was born the first of August, and she died 22" -- on the 12" of August, in 95. Now this is her sister, who wrote it to me. Her sister lives on that address, because in "95, of course, I was here.

But she might have names, and -- and -- and addresses from people fr-from that time. Now this is my uncle, that's the sit -- the brother of my mother. He died at Auschwitz concentration camp, in 1941. See, I -- 1 hope to write a book, if I find a person that can help me out, because I have not the slightest idea how to start, but that's why I made all those notations, yeah. I was in that -- that is -- that is a school of -- home economics is that in English. So I did that before I went as a nurse. You -- you made cakes from tulip bulbs, spinach from tree leaves. You had no butter, you had no sugar, no chocolate. There were no coffins, bodies were wrapped in paper. Now, that was in deg42, so it's -- it started to become nasty. In the beginning you didn't notice much, but it -- it builded up, because we were resisting. If we didn't resist, everything would have been more pleasant. No heat in the house, which in the bedroom was frozen this thick. Oh yeah, then here I was in the staff of the kitchen, in moylon that is that house for old people. And then I was in the train to The Hague, when German tried to kiss me while I stood at window. Smashed with high

heeled shoe in his banana. And then I saw a blitzed plane that was shot down, and the pilot was still in his seat, but he was black, ashed, you know? And then you would put your finger against that, and your finger would have the ash, like on Ash Wednesday. That's -- the Catholics do. But he was still intact, was amazing. Yeah, and -- and the German said, "Okay, you can see it."

Q: Let me ask you a bit more about her. Where did your Girl Guide leader live?

A: In The Hague. This is -- this is all -- see, in The Hague.

Q: Okay, so she lived in The Hague.

A: Yeah.

Q: How old was she? You were 20.

A: Well, she was born in 1904, and she died 1995. So she was pretty old. Can that be? Yeah, that can be, can be. "95, subtract that from there. So in the 90's, roughly. Thi-This is --

Q: So she was about 10 years older than you?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah. Now this is the harch sistikting forhoup and roterdumpser escapees, or -- what -- what is that here? If -- if you flee. Refugees. And this was the leader who gave me that -- that little gadget, that -- Eugene, see, he was French. Sorting out worn clothing to size, at refugees home, and s-stuff like that.

Q: So when you still went to a Girl Guide meeting, would you leave the hospital, and put your Girl Guide outfit on?

A: No, no, no, no, no. See, this Girl Guide stuff was before I went as a nurse.

Q: Okay.

A: Because then I did not live in The Hague. Now, on vacations, if I had time to visit them, I would do that, but Haarlem, that is where -- where the hospital was, is entirely different area. But of course, she went on with her Girl Scouts, so we -- we -- we kept in touch.

Q: Did she ever talk about -- without being really explicit, but did she ever talk about what she was doing?

A: No, no, no, no, no, never. I only, because I'm so inquisitive, I find out things. But I did not want to let her feel that I was investigating, it was just that I was curious, I wanted to know.

Q: What did you find out about her?

A: In -- in -- in those days, you didn't do things, if a person didn't want you to do it, because she had a highly sensitive position. If -- if -- with the Red Cross, that that is international, you have to be very careful. So she -- she -- I think she never told anybody that she was a Girl Scout leader to begin with, that would have been so stupid. But if you deal with -- with -- with kids, so what, who cares what you do? You know, you play with them, and you keep them happy, and -- and -- and -- and don't ask for political things. So, no, I -- I was not that close with her. She was what you call a very strict disciplinarian, what was good, and that's maybe why she made me the way I am, but I had the greatest respect, and you did not backtalk with her. She was that type of person, oh yeah.

Q: What did you call her?

A: Haupfrau.

Q: Haupfrau. Haupfrau --

A: Perhaps you think --

Q: -- what does that mean, Haupfrau?

A: Haupfrau.

Q: Leader?

A: I think that it's a nickname, and -- and you don't use that here, because I was here a Girl Scout, too. It is typical, and how should I say that? If -- if you like a person a lot, that you nickname in -- in a nice way, sweet, you know, lovable. So, I think we invented that name.

Maybe she didn't like it, but she never said that she didn't like it.

Q: So you said that you investigated, even though she was pretty private. H-Ho --

A: [indecipherable]

Q: Oh.

A: International. "31.

Q: How -- how did you sn -- how did you find out what you did find out about why she did it?

A: Just for asking. I'm not sneaky, I just ask, and if they don't want to say anything, fine. And if they say, "Why would you know?" I say, "Because I'm curious." Or -- or I'm interested.

Q: Did you ever see her after the war --

A: No.

Q: -- so you could talk to her about it?

A: No, no, no.

Q: No.

A: No, because see, then I moved. I never finished my -- my nursing exam, because it was chaos, and as I told you, I was in love, the heck with the exam, so | -- I never got my degree. But I feel, if you have experience, that should do it. And the hockey stuff also, they -- they kept writing, and sending pictures with. It is impossible, because here, not only you immigrate, but you are all of a sudden bang, in everything, you know. Because you are new, and you meet people, they want to know everything about you. So I -- I was a celebrity, and as I told you, I did all those courses.

You -- you're just having a job, taking care of your boys, your husband needs to be fed, he doesn't do a darn thing, he didn't -- didn't do the -- the yard, or anything, so I kicked him out.

Can you believe that, he said, "If we come to the States, you are not allowed to learn how to drive a car." So, I waited until he went to his job in Washington National Airport, with United Airlines, and I looked in the Yellow pages, and I called someone that is offering driving lessons.

So there's a guy, gives me seven lessons for five dollars per hour. I went solo to D.C., came out alive, back home. And I said to my husband, "T did it." Boy, he was exploding. Then, I was not allowed to get a job. So, when he went to work, I went with my car, where my new license, parked in the parking lot, went inside, with my little ad I found. They needed a person for Mutual of Omaha. So I knocked at the door, the guy opens the door, he said, "Oh, you want a job, you are hired." And I stayed for 31 years. I still see him, and write Christmas cards, and talk with his wife. She is Scottish, he's -- he is American, they live in Alexandria. But I always asked him, I said, "What did you see in me? Why did you hire me so fast?" He said, "Because you acted cute." And his wife was laughing. She said, "Yeah, I think same way." And I saw the romance in the airport, because he always went to her counter. I said to him, "Uh-uh, that's not the way to go, that's the way to go, that's your office."

Q: So basically, if someone tells you not to do something, you -- you're going to go ahead and do it.

A: That seems to be the way it happens. Because I never thought why I would not work to help my kids to go to college, or to get something for the house, or -- I mean, I'm not a slave, but I showed him that I was not a doormat, either, even I was married to him. So he was upset. He said, "You don't obey me." I said, "For what? I'm not in Indonesia." Yeah, that's the way I am.

Q: Well, tha -- this kind of links us, in a way, to orders, you know, when you get orders, when you're in what -- volved with what you were in, if you got an order, you did have to do it.

A: Yeah, but that's different.

Q: Okay, how?

A: That is an order that makes sense, that has a purpose. But to say you cannot drive, just for the fact that I'm your wife, the hell with you. E-Everybody drives. How can you -- how can you walk from one point to the other? And I hate buses. I hate to be dependent on something. I'm a very in-independent person. And if you say you cannot do this, I say, I do it. That -- that has been my whole life. And my father can tell you that too, if he was still living, because that is just the way I am. And maybe it's because of all the stuff that I have experienced, that it -- that it made me that -- that way.

Q: How would you get orders from your higher ups, to do certain things?

A: I only listen if you are nice, if you say it in a way, can you please do this, then I do it.

Q: But I mean in -- dur -- during the war, like, ho-ho-how would you even hear that you were supposed to do something?

A: I felt is an honor. An honor that I was asked to do that, and I would do a good job about it. Of course, you don't have the schooling, you have no experience. You do the -- the way -- the best that you can do it, but if it comes out right, then you get a medal. And you win -- you win TV's and stuff like that, I think. That is it, an -- an accomplishment. But I don't do anything just because they ask. It has to have common sense first. Because otherwise, you do something against your will, and that's not me.

Q: Can you tell us about any close calls you had? Get into some --

A: Well, if you call that a close call, that -- that -- that soldier in the train, but I never felt it that way. No, I -- I feel very religious about it, I feel I have been protected. I never really had a close call. I could have been killed many times, but because of -- of the intuition, or the insight feeling that you get about a certain happening, or a certain person, | think that's the warning, and then you just be careful.

Q: So do you feel some -- in some way, you were warned sometimes?

A: Maybe -- maybe -- yeah, maybe that twofee, too, that got a shell in the house. You could say that is a close call. But see, I don't see it that way, because the mattress was between the shell, and the shell stuck in -- in the roof, and didn't go down, didn't fall all the way, see, so -- and then -- and then we -- and that was funny, too. We were -- we were moved -- that -- that's also government ordered, because the house was impossible to fix. So we moved to a family, and they had the pear tree, full of pears, in -- in their yard. Now, in those days, if you had that guy's pear, you got shot at. So, his son -- I never forget that, but his son was about my age, too, he was always in the kitchen door with the rifle. I said to him, "Hey, you have nothing better to do?" But -- but -- but -- but what I do go get you a pear. I wouldn't even touch it, but I can look at it.

Yeah, you have crazy people. Hot, he was so crazy about his pears, I said, "When do you finally start to eat the darn things?" Because the pear has to be ripe and fall out anyway. Oh, oh, oh.

Q: Can you talk a little bit about friendships you made with people who were doing similar things to what you were doing in the Resistance?

A: The only friendships that you could have was in the hospital as a student nurse, and I was with friends in that -- in that hospital for older people, and of course, the sports. Had lots of friends. Girl Scouts, you kept friends for years. But see, you -- you -- you -- either they move, or they get married, so then the -- their name changes. And when I moved, I tried to keep up with

all those people, but it's -- you -- you ha -- [indecipherable] work to write. And if they have no time to write back, you just have to give up, or you write a Christmas card with love, your name, and that's it. No, I'm not a person that -- that stays up for 24 hours to keep friends. If the friends wa-want to be a friend, I am loyal to that person, and if that person is not loyal, fine, that's their business.

Q: Were you ever trained in any way, to do anything that you did?

A: I think the experience is the training. You do something, and then see what will happen. And otherwise, the student stuff was experience, and -- and you learn how to be prepared during scouting, and you smash someone's knees when you -- you -- you play hockey. I wound always u-up in -- in -- in the back of the goal, because I was so fast, I couldn't make myself stop. So they couldn't find me, and I heard them yelling, "Lukie, Lukie, where are you?" And then the -- was behind the -- the goal, and I was entangled in -- in -- in the goal net, because I couldn't get out of it. But that was the only way, you know. You -- you kept friends with people that you are working with, or laughing with, or experiencing with. Oh boy, I know I had always fun. I always -- and that -- that makes you weak, because I get weak from laughing. My grandmother was that way, too.

Q: Really?

A: We always laughed. We had gossip about aunt this, about uncle that, and then all of a sudden, you -- you would have silence, and then you would hear something, like this -- this bottle went upside down on the seat, and that was -- I don't explain it. But I mean, that -- that was our family. Oh boy, and my mother also, she would have her hands over the stove to keep warm, and then we would gossip again about this, because that's all that you could do in those days, is

gossip, because you -- you couldn't do nothing, nothing else. My mother had no job, and my father would come home with a -- a face like, is the food ready?

Q: Tell us -- you haven't really -- we've mentioned him a couple times, but I wonder if we should tell us the story of your uncle. You know, let's give his name, and describe a little bit about what he did, and how he ended up --

A: Two -- two uncles. Two uncles.

Q: -- in Auschwitz, okay.

A: Yeah, because I don't know.

Q: But let's tell both.

A: I don't know.

Q: Okay.

A: Lonly know that --

Q: Just say what you do know.

A: -- he -- he was picked up at five in the morning.

Q: Which one is this?

A: That was the older. That was Alder Young. My mother's oldest. And I found that out after I came home from -- | think that was the nursing time, and my mother had those items in her hands, and she was -- she -- in -- you -- sometimes it was so emotional you couldn't talk. So I had it -- to find out from my father, who finally talks way after that, but we have never found out if he was ill, or that he died in -- in the real gas chambers, what we didn't know at that time, either. Everything was after the war, that you heard about that. And I always thought, how a human being can invent that. I was absolute perplexed, because a nurse is a nurse. Is healing.

You don't invent all that cruel stuff. You don't -- you don't expect that to happen. So, we never

got his body. The other uncle, of course, was killed on -- on -- on the tarmac of the airport, so that was a body, but that cousin that was 15 years in a Jap camp, we were told -- again, I don't know the truth, that he was just killed by -- by not being fed, not getting food, so he was malnutrition.

Q: Th-The one who was killed on the tarmac?

A: That was my youngest uncle.

Q: And what was his name?

A: Edward. That is from this advertisement.

Q: And where was he killed?

A: In Eepenberg, that is close to a place in the ha -- The Hague, a suburb of The Hague.

Q: So they're both Dutch citizens?

A: Yes, oh yeah. My family.

Q: But no, I know, but I'm --

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: -- just -- the Dutch cit --

A: Yes, yes.

Q: So what would have necessitated them being picked up in any way?

A: He was -- they were betrayed. They had -- the uncle that went to Auschwitz was like me, underground, but at that time, I didn't know that, because we didn't talk. And the office where he worked -- I -- I don't even know what office that was, was a guy who was member of the n -- NSB. So, when my uncle talked, he might have been not careful. He was betrayed. Now, at that time, I didn't know that. I didn't know about the under -- other uncle, until later, I was told that he was shot. And then in -- years later, my father mailed that to me, that little thing, and I kept it

at -- all the time, because it is part of history. Now, he was a captain, he was in -- in the -- in the Dutch army, and he was very brave.

Q: Was your father in the underground?

A: He was -- no, but he was -- he was secretary of -- of that organization like here the Triple A is. But, because of his looks -- he looked younger than the age of a person that was sent to work in a German factory. He just -- I think he grew his ber -- beard, or whatever he did, in order to go to work without the second experience of being picked up. Because he -- he kept going to the office, to do his job, but he was not done being picked up again. Or maybe he got such a shock that he grow older, I don't know, but that -- that was happening in those days, so you didn't see man between 16, and I think it was either 45, or 55. So you saw only real old men, and men of my age, you -- you saw after the -- the dark fell in, and then you dared to go out, because I still dated somehow. And -- and of course, those boys on the hockey field, they dared to go out and play hockey, even they had the chance to go out to the factory in Germany. But, see y-you got bolder by the day. Do you think that you -- you -- you -- you thought that the -- the Germans could do all those things, yo-you just thought they were -- they were mentally sick and said those things, but you didn't obey them, you laughed in their face. Yeah, you can laugh now, but that's how I lost a lot of boyfriends. I remember I was in love with a -- with a guy, and he always tried to bring me home. And then all of a sudden, I went back to play hockey, and he was not there. So someone said yeah -- what was his name again? I forgot. But he was the guy that went via Belgium, and France, and the Pyrenee, and -- and Spain, to England, and then he got caught in -- in that time, but I have never found out how he got caught. That was just one of those news that you picked up, and you knew that was the guy that you liked so much. So it was -- it was very tragic. That's why it was difficult to have your emotions pointed at something, because it never

lasted. And -- and you had no control about anything. If you tried to, you -- you had to change with a grudge, but so what, it changes, and there is nothing you can do about it. That is just the end of that period. So I think I grew faster for my age than any person here in the United States ever will, because of all the pain there, that you endured, and I was too strong to admit it. But I got stronger, I could feel that.

Q: What was it like right when you were doing something, when you -- you had a kid who really was Jewish, and should have had a star, and you were getting the kid to somebody's house --

A: Oh, that was a challenge, no doubt about that. Yeah, you still have a star? Forget it, off. I just ripped it. But you see, th-the -- the seam's still on -- on the thing, so they -- he had to have the new jacket. And we -- we -- we hided all that stuff, we just hided it. Oh no, you had to act fast.

Maybe you could say I was impulsive, but to me, to -- to wear that, that -- that -- that was plain suicide, and you don't let that happen, no way. Oh yeah. But see, if you get -- the guy is six feet tall, with -- with boots, that even a snake don't -- doesn't bite through, and you have a -- a -- a -- a rifle that weighs maybe a hundred pounds, or 80 pounds, I think it is, y-you cannot just, you know, do certain things, and -- and get yourself in trouble, because then you out of -- of -- of -- of a useful life, because you've -- you have to feel useful. It -- it is -- it is a -- a -- I would almost say, even, I'm not a church goer, that you have from the Lord, a test in your life, and it depends on how -- how you beat that test, that you're a failure, or that you're a accomplisher. That's the way I feel. Everything in life is a test.

Q: Were there times that when you were doing things, that you were sort of filled with a -- a feeling that you were under God's care, or that you were on a mission, or --

A: Yeah, yeah, I ca -- I could feel it. I still feel it. I still feel it. And -- and just little things. For instance, I'm -- I'm not rich. I have no job, so I depend on Social Security, and a small pension,

what I had to fight for -- was a lawsuit, you know. And a small investment. But I can make it. I have no -- no -- what you call big debts, and some rich people that, boy they -- they -- End of Tape Three, Side A Beginning Tape Three, Side B

Q: This is a continuation of tape three, side B, interview with Louise Segaar, November 10", in the year 2000, at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.

A: I could use some, but I have a credit that is excellent. My bank has me on a senior citizen -- what you call that? Status. So I have, of course, to have a certain amount, so that overdraft is not tolerated, but I never have an overdraft, because I calculate my expenses before I even put it in the mailbox. I mean, you have to think. And if there is an expense that is before a certain time limit, I call that person, can you extend it a little bit longer? No problem, as long as I keep in touch that I will pay. It's -- it's -- everything is so simple, really. I don't me -- money is like a game. You get money, and you spend money. But it's just the -- the -- what is that word now?

That it's balanced properly.

Q: Have you ever come across any people who you helped rescue, that have identified themselves to you?

A: No, never. It's because life goes so fast, and your life changes, your physical changes, your -- what is that -- your interests changes, too. And I found out that lots of people are very absorbed in their own family. And if you say something, oh that's nice, but so what? That's your business.

So, that -- that is with everybody. I -- I noticed that with my next door neighbors. I have a -- a bunch of Bolivians, and they speak only Spanish, but there's one guy that I speak English with.

They are very nice, and they're totally different from the other neighbors. But they have their own problems. I noticed that, they have problems, but I keep my big mouths shut. And if they --

if -- if they know how to solve it. For instance, they -- they're -- they're not -- new in this country, so they don't know laws. So the other day, their dog goes out without the leash. I said to the guy, "You better watch out that the policeman is not passing, because you get hundred dollars fine, and you might have that the dog will be impounded." And he asked me what is -- what is impounded? So he didn't know that. But now, the -- the dog is with a leash, and he is in the yard, and he is grateful, but he doesn't show that. It's just that I felt obligated to protect that poor dog, because I love animals, and if that poor -- that Bolivian is not familiar with laws, I have the duty to tell him, to protect that he get in trouble. So they are nice people, very polite.

But we -- we don't do anything voluntarily t-to -- to get more friendly. Let me put it that way.

They are on that side of the fence, and I am on this side. Plenty to do. I never sit still.

Q: How about -- did you ever come across someone that you -- that you worked with in the Resistance, who was someone like you? No.

A: No. Totally out.

Q: So when the war ended, what happened?

A: Nothing. I immigrated.

Q: Pretty much?

A: Pardon?

Q: Pretty much, that's what happened?

A: Well, that was our goal.

Q: Yeah [inaudible]

A: See, if -- if you have no job -- after the war, my husband got an assignment in Indonesia. So we went there for a year, and that was because that airline, Kahouda Indonesian Airline, was supposed to be independent from the KLM, that's the Dutch company airline. But the

government did not like the idea that we were living, so we had a notice of 14 days to scram, get out. And I was just married, so all my wedding presents I could not pack, was too many. You -- you only had the opportunity to pack what you could carry, so that was all behind, so they had a ball, perhaps with that stuff. The house was empty. We were just literally refugees. So then you come to the -- to the Netherlands, and you have no home, so you are supposed to live with your in-laws, and that -- I just explained my father-in-law was, with the Japs hanging -- oh, that was hell. So we tried as soon as we could manage, to immigrate. But, you stay on -- on -- on a list.

You need to find your own sponsor, no help with that. So we kept looking in newspapers for immigration, and we found a sponsor. Then you need money in order to pay for the trip. We had that. I -- I -- I worked underground, too. I was not allowed to work, but I did. And then finally, in 1953, we got permission, and we left at April the sixth, after we had that big flood, on January the 31%, that all the dikes were flooded over. I don't know if you member -- remember that -- I have also a book about that. So, the south part of Holland was absolute water. Water, water, all over, and 2,000 people had drowned. Cows, horses, everything was floating, because they had drowned. It was mess. So, we came here in April, and my son was six. Had not learned a word of English, because he is just like me. That stupid language, I don't want to learn that. Now, that was in Holland, so we come here, and we have a family from the state department, and they have Black people, real southern Virginian type. And I was supposed to sit with that Black woman. So what? I said to the lady, "What big fuss about it? Who cares? She is nice." And then the Black woman says, "You are more educated than my own boss." I told her that, I said, "I dress better, I have better manners, I'm polite, and I -- I have more respect for Black people than you do." That woman was flabbergasted. She said, ""Where did you learn that?" I said, "Well, I just, you know, have my ears open." But when you was at work, I -- I -- I got someone at the door, and I opened

the door, "Are you Mrs. Gardner?" I said, "No, I'm the housekeeper." "Oh, you look much better than she does." Now, I didn't know that guy, he just knocked at the door, so I mean, a -- a -- a -- a -- already found a lot of things out. And then I found out they were Democrats, so I'm an -- I'm a Republican.

Q: But you needed a roof over your head.

A: But my son -- April, May, June, July, August, September, learned perfect Virginian slang. So he came in the first grade. Then we had a PTA meeting, and that teacher of that class comes to me. "I heard that you was from Holland. How come your son speaks perfect English?" I said, "So do I." She was so impressed, she said, "Oh, that is so cute, he speaks so good Virginian." I said, "Well, it's because he was forced to. In Holland, he refused to learn that." She said, "I cannot believe that." I said, "Well, that's what he said." Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. So then -- then he was at school here, and the -- both sons, I said, "If you are in the door, in the house, it's only Dutch spoken. You leave the house, then you can speak all the English you want." So my youngest became a pilot, he goes to Amsterdam for three days. "Are you American?" "Yeah," said my son. "But you speak Dutch." "So what? My mother taught -- told me. She is a [inaudible]." Of course, he didn't dare to say that, but I mean, that -- that was what they thought in the -- in Holland, because he spoke fluently Dutch. And it didn't cost him a penny.

Q: That's really important.

A: And that's with my oldest son also, if we have a secret language, we speak Dutch.

Q: Yeah.

A: If I get a -- a -- a salesperson over the telephone, I speak Dutch. I had once a guy who spoke Japanese, so I spoke Dutch, and I heard him saying something bad in Japanese, but he hang up.

Q: I should -- I shouldn't have jumped ahead, I want to go back to the last few months of the war, d -- were you beginning to expect a liberation? Were you beginning to hear that it was happening in other places?

A: We had a map with pins, and listening to the BBC, we changed the pins where they lost. So we knew, looking at the pins, that they lost this part, they lost that part, they lost Poland, they -- they lost Danzig. The Russians were killing them in the east of -- of Germany. In Belgium were certain battles lost. The battle of Arnhem, you see the -- you saw maybe in the movies about that.

So we -- we didn't have to notice it, you just looked, or listened, and that is how you got the nerve to do some certain things that you didn't dare to do. And that is why we knew that wi -- they were, you know, sent to th-the west coast, that is [indecipherable], and that was the -- the area where the underground had the -- settled, and there they had to leave all their fur coats that they were snatching, and -- and radios, and whatever. All -- all the luxury stuff that was stolen, they had to leave it there. And they are -- they were -- I think, but I -- I cannot be sure about it, stripped from all their whatever, paraphernalia, on their arms, because of ranks, and stuff. So they walked for two or three hours, to their country, as a private. You didn't notice if a colonel, whatever. We just got them s -- so far down that they were not looking us in the face any more.

Q: Right.

A: And that is why we also snapped those girls that we knew had dated. And we put them on a table, and that's all facts, it's not that I invent that -- on the table, with a razor here, and razed off, fell on the floor. Other young people of my age threw tomatoes in their faces, rotten eggs. We saved it all up for that purpose. And then, of course, they were also -- I don't know, I was not there to -- to witness that. Cause what happened after that, I don't know, if they were molested, or -- or raped, or -- I -- I just don't know that.

Q: Oh, you weren't there when that happened?

A: No, no, no, no. Because, as I told you, I was still a nurse. I was still in the hospital, and what I know is either from newspaper news, or in -- in -- in the radio at the time, then you had the nerve to listen to your own radio. But see, the radio was still German minded, so it was not the way that you could believe it. But when the radio became Dutch again, that was where you listened to, and that was honest.

Q: A couple days later, after that happened to those girls, did you ever see any girls with their heads shaven?

A: No, no. Oh, I saw that --

Q: Heads shaved --

A: Oh, I saw that on pictures.

Q: Okay.

A: As I told you, you went to the movies to watch the news, and that is why I thought Hodsen looks funny, but she had no hair, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah.

Q: What -- what other kinds of things like that happened to people who had collaborated in a sense, with the Germans?

A: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. Well, you got punished. But see, I was co -- not connected with those, so they -- they to me were like rotten apples. You don't talk to them, you don't want to see them. You have no interest in what -- what happened to them. But you find it out from either news, but you don't -- you know, that -- that you just happen to see, and then you are surprised.

[indecipherable] is that -- is that the Dutch way to do things, with the -- officially it was. Dutch people are not angels, either. They are nasty.

Q: And so, within the period of how many days w-w-was the city empty of Germans?

A: That is hard to tell, because also, that was gradually. See, a Dutch person does not want to make a big deal about some event. It's all hush-hush, and underground. So, if they were picked up, I think their uniforms were stripped off first, and they looked like a normal person again.

That is what happened. So, if you meet a person, then you have no suspicion that -- that is not a Dutch person, but he might be a German. Because he doesn't talk, you don't know. Because Germans and -- and -- and -- and Dutch people look very much the same. You look Dutch too.

No, really. I mean, that's the way it is. They're all blonde, and they have the same expressions, rosy cheeks, and even the way they walk is the same.

Q: Interesting.

A: I -- | know the difference between someone -- someone from Asia, or someone from the midst of Europe, and I -- I always ser -- say here, if someone complains, "Why don't you visit Kosovo?" Then you get a better opinion. I hate that, you know, people complaining because the weather is lousy, or whatever. Don't complain. Go as a volunteer, and help there. That's my answer. And w -- that -- that is what I hope that the government finally will change, and do that, too, because there is a -- a need so badly, and -- and there is a need for -- for peace between those Arabs. I said to an Arab once, because I still talk with all -- all kinds of religions, "Why is it that -- that women are treated so lousy in your country? They -- they have a veil, they cannot be seen." I said, "If I was in your country, the heck with you. I come the way I am, and if you want to arrest me, I don't even go to your country. So if you want to make friends, be normal, be -- be the time of what we live, 2000. You don't live in the Bible years. It makes sense." I said, ""What - - what rights do you have with your beard, and your funny little thing over here to say those things? Because you happen to be an Arab? I have no respect for that. I have respect if you treat your wife in the way she should be treated, and otherwise, bye."

Q: Tell us how you were actually liberated.

A: I was having my shift finished, and I hear a lot of commotion, and I hear tanks coming in, and Irun outside, because I have been told that you could sit on one of those. No dice, they were already full. Oh, it was hysterical funny. But you walked beside them, and you threw whatever you could threw at them, and -- and say in English -- I was an interpreter then, too, "Oh, we are so happy to see you. You have not the slightest idea." "Oh yeah," said one soldier, very casual, "what do you think we're doing here now?" I said, "Oh, I think you call that liberation."

Q: What kind of soldiers were they?

A: They were Palestinian. But see, in those days, they were on the British thing, so -- yeah, and Canadians, that's why I have that book. Because they ask me to become a member, that was also one of those big honor things. And I was -- oh, I had every week a different boyfriend. I had a -- a sergeant, I had a lieutenant colonel. But the funny thing is, they all were very much in -- like the -- the sergeant, I could not go to a party, if that party was nothing but lieutenants, because of his rank. So I had once that I made a blunder, and I -- I took him to one of those parties, and he was hiding under the table, because he couldn't show himself. And then he was so -- so feeling bad, he drank, drank, drank, so he was loaded, he -- he -- he couldn't talk any more, so I remember I took him under the armpit, and like a sled, I got him outside the door, in the street, and then he woke up because of the cold. And the other boyfriend, the lieutenant, yelled at me, what are you doing with that bum? I said, "Well, he needs fresh air." See, I -- I was the type, I didn't care less if he was a sergeant, or a private, or a lieutenant, because I'm a baroness, I have a title. So I don't have to feel like, you know, act like a snob, because I was a snob by birth.

Q: And that's the first time you've mentioned it all day.

A: Yeah, but can you help it? When I came here, I had to renounce it in the court. I said to the judge, "What a waste of time." And he looked at me like, "What did you say?" I said, "If you are born a baroness, you can tell me to renounce it, and I say you're a nice judge, but I cannot renounce myself, I am born that way." So then he w -- he -- he thought, "Yeah, she makes a lot of sense." So he laughed. He said, "You're funny." I said, "Yeah, I know I'm funny." But the other person, she was a baroness from -- I think it was Denmark. Yeah. She i -- she is from a famous Danish -- of course, we know all -- all -- like in England, who is duke, and who is lord, and whatever. My uncle was with the House of Lords, so y-you know you brought up in that, and you don't know any better. So, she was a baroness -- what's that again, and -- and she poked me.

She said, "Do you talk like that all the time?" I said, "Yeah, that's the way I am." Because she was brought up very stiff, you know, don't talk, don't talk. But her husband was American. And so he said, "Yeah, I can understand." What -- whatever happens in the court is not always, you know. Well, they think it is, but it doesn't make sense. What's the point, you go to court, and renounce your own title? It's so stupid, because you cannot do anything with it. It doesn't cost any money. It doesn't hurt anybody. It's just a name.

Q: How -- how much of this story do your children know?

A: Nothing.

Q: Really?

A: I don't even start. They don't want to hear it. No, they don't want to hear it. They -- it's -- it is just a generation that feels it is not concerning them. They are not interested, they have their -- their own soccer team, and whatever. They're very occupied. My -- my son is now a coach for -- for a soccer team, and they played with a Dutch soccer team from the embassy. Oh boy, he is so -- so that -- that is big deal, and I feel if you are together, it should be happy, and because of that

oc-occasion, and if they want to know, they can ask. But they never do. And I feel well, that's their tough luck, they don't know what they are missing. But maybe it's good, cause it's nothing but sad, sad, sad. And they don't like me to be very -- how shall I put it, with -- with a -- with a face like suffering and stuff, because that's not the way we are. We are all happy. And I keep it that way. And what was happened in the past, it happened in the past. I live with that.

Q: Is there something else you wanted to mention before we [indecipherable]

A: Oh boy, I have not the slightest idea. I might later, but at this time, I don't know.

End of Tape Three, Side B Conclusion of Interview