Document

LILLY SCHWARZ GACH December 9, 1991

Q: Mrs. Gach, uh thank you for coming to visit with us this morning. We're going to be asking you uh to share with us some of your experiences as you recall them, and perhaps the best way to begin is to ask you to tell us your name and a little about your early life in Budapest.

A: OK. My name is Lilly Brust Gach. I was born in uh Hungary in Europe, Hungary, Budapest, and uh I had a brother who was younger than I myself, _ three years and uh we had a wonderful, happy family life and childhood. Beautiful. Well educated, if I may say so myself, both of us. Uh we had elementary school. Naturally we started with that.

We don't have the kindergarten and what we have here, which is wonderful. From there we went to the high school. I was sent out to Vienna for my German, Switzerland to my...Swiss as to my French, and I was a happy-go-lucky girl. So was my brother. And uh we finished school. I got married very early, very happily, and uh then Eva was born.

Made us more happy, and since then she's my...my life. My husband passed away here in this country, 1957, January. It's a long, long time.

Q: OK. Let's go back then to the time when you were growing up in Budapest. You had mentioned that you had a happy childhood.

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Tell us about the changes that you remember in the life of the Jewish community in Budapest at whatever time you can recall.

A: Well uh, the Jewish...how should I say it...as a young girl I was going to the big holidays with my mother. I can sit next to her and I was very proud being there. So was my brother who was sitting downstairs uh with my father, my uncle, and many other family uh and friends whom we know, and I was really brought up in a very warm, Jewish family. I wasn't too religious, but all the holidays we were keeping and we got together with the family, mother's, father's, and this was it.

Q: And when did you first realize there were changes in the experiences of the Jewish community?

A: That's a very good question, what you ask me. I realized the first time when I was in Vienna, Vienna, in the school , they call that. And uh I spoke fluently German because Austra-Hungarians we needed it...five hours only between Hungary and Vienna, so we we the language. And we were making discussions from Vienna, and I saw certain signs which in German naturally I could read...and in English it would say, no Jews and dogs are allowed. Certain restaurants or buildings. I was reading it. 1 was even asking my teacher. I said what does this mean? I don't like that.

Q: Do you remember what year that was?

A: Oh yes. Sure. It was in 1927.

Q: 1937 I think...

A: Die 21s

Q: OK.

A: This is the first time that I went to Vienna. I was fifteen or sixteen years old. So she gave me a very interesting answer, and uh naturally whatever she said, it was fine. But I came back to Hungary and I told my parents. They said you couldn't read that. You you misunderstood. They didn't believe it. So I stopped asking because maybe I made a mistake. Even so I was reading fluently and these are two words which you cannot...I mean Jewish is Jewish...Juda...and dog is dog. . So this was...this was the first time, and it bothered me, but when, you know, young girl, going back to school and this was the end of it. Now then in Europe what's going on. Naturally in Germany, so the

...they always said it cannot happen to us. This was the motto. Then come closer.

Hungary became...naturally was...we were allied with the Germans so nothing happened, but the minute...minute when uh we became part of the Allies, then we knew that we are Jews and there are enemies in our own country.

Q: Let's go back then to the time the war actually began, in 1939 in Poland. How did it affect the Jewish community in Budapest?

A: In a way there was a feeling that something is wrong, but we didn't know what. Certain

the Germans are our allies, so they didn't touch us, but you could feel there is something in the air. You couldn't explain it. | remember we went with my husband to France just for a trip and uh we had friends over there. They said, are you going back? So we said what a question? Said don't you see what's going on? So I said yes, I don't care.

Eva is home. Naturally we're going back, and we did go back. In 1940 my husband was invited...invited to be in the in the labor camp.

Q: OK. Let's talk about that. In 1940, things changed in Budapest. How would you characterize the change? What do you remember?

A: Well, first of all he went into the labor camp.

Q: How did he go into the labor camp?

A: He got a notice that uh he should uh go on this and this address and have a little bag for himself, the necessities...underwear, jacket, something like that. Good shoes. And he will be notified where to go. When the paper comes, he should be ready, and then he will notify us where he is. We shouldn't worry, so I was worried. I don't have to tell you...

Q: Do you remember who he got the paper from?

A: Oh sure. Oh sure. Well, this was a paper from the Hungarian uh...what was that...uh ministerial (ph) that he is going in...some were called in for being soldiers. Then some were called in to the so-called labor camps. Each man that they were working on the highways. They went up to...they were taken up to the mountains. There was nothing for them, so they made their own ditches for uh important things and then they they got...uh they were putting up huts for them. They were put in a uh train which took them...in Hungary, we were still in Hungary...naturally I went out with him. And uh I was very upset. I I didn't know what's going on, so they're starting to read the letters or the telephone calls. L...we didn't know what...what is labor...labor...labor camps mean.

Absolutely not. So then I started to work in uh his business and helping out and I was busy, and my daughter, naturally, and uh he wrote me a card. I showed you that I think.

The first one and then the second one that uh he's alright. I shouldn't worry, and uh there are a lot of people there. He's very...not helpful because he is not uh a person who can work on the fields but anyway he's trying his best. The food is so...I should take care of Eva...all my love. Open card...this was all read by the people how I found out. Sometimes it was crossed...he said something not..not___. Then I started to find out what that labor camp is, and uh I talked to some gentleman...I don't want to name...give his name because his family is here a very well-known name, but I will tell you later. And he loved my husband and I said well, listen. I would like to find out what we can do. So I said uh find out...uh I will find out and I let you know. Fine. He was...he was also Jewish. He was a highly regarded soldier from the 1st World War, so he was not a youngster, but he was very nice and I called him actually uncle. I don't know why. And uh so he found out that there is a doctor in my husband's uh labor camp, and he will talk to him. He will ask him to go to him and tell him how...what he fells, because he wasn't well, and so he got...he was going to the doctor and uh he gave him a paper that he is not well, and in two weeks he should come back, so he came home. So then...

Q: So he was in a labor camp for how long?

A: He was there uh a few months. I can't remember exactly. It started to come to winter, so for two weeks he was home. He told me or less how it's going...very hard, and naturally the captain who was running the show...he was nothing, absolutely nothing. I mean not qualified. He was...

Q: OK. What did he do when he came home?

A: First of all, he wanted to look around what...what he can do and I went up to the American Consul and told him that story, that he cannot do it because he is...and I cannot, cannot, cannot. So I said oh, don't worry. It won't be too long, but you have your papers. You have your family. Uh and uh so after two weeks he had to go back, to a different place. 101 . This was his name...or this number of that camp. So I went with him and there they had permission once in a while when they came down from the mountains, coming into a town, that I could go there without they should know. A lot of wives, naturally, found that we had each other, and he came down with a sergeant. Load for food and to carrying up food to the mountains and all that, but he knew that I will be in this place, so we met there. They were lovely people. I never met them. They opened their house for us that we could sit down. He can take a bath and you know, important.

Q: What did he do in that labor camp?

A: The...always the same. Always the...

Q: Which was?

A: Which was they were working...excuse me...they were working on the fields. They were working there to set up uh uh houses...not houses. I mean there was huts...huts. It was...the winter came and they had no clothing. It was cold. There was nothing, so they...they were busy but with nothing. That's the honest truth. Just to keep them there.

Q: And how long did he stay the second time?

A: He was staying there for uh for half a year maybe or longer. Then there was a time that they changed places so he came back before they changed places uh spaces or places. But I could see him...physically first of all he lost a lot of weight but this was the least, but inside something broke. He was a very cultured, intelligent, warm gentleman, and this killed him inside. And I could feel...that's why I tried whatever I could but you know, I'm not a psychologist or anything, just plain wife. He got another invitation. In the meantime my parents came back again to this country. Leslie left. It was 1940. He was working to get out just from that country to this country, to my parents. Immediately he went in to volunteer...there was no war in that year, but he wanted to do that, and uh they said alright. We'll put you down and that's OK. I don't know where he went. I think he went to Camp Kilmer (ph) that time.

Q: And you and your husband and your daughter...?

A: My husband was in labor camp. The...naturally the Americans and the English were bombing us because we were enemies. Let me tell you honestly, I said thanks God...thank them all. I couldn't...1 didn't think about it what happens to our building where we were living because we don't even own that. I didn't mind we die, hopefully all three in the same time, but this cannot go on. We had bombs...the houses are down. There was no food. You know, war but I see now it just comes back.

Q: And in 1941...

A: ..one...he came back again but that time it was bad. This was a >> which means Jews, or a percentage. I was running still his business. It was...nothing happened to it, but it was very hard because I was a woman and I I wasn't a business woman but uh just used my little brain what I had and I kept...we had to pick up gentile people to keep the numerous clauses...let's say I could have x percent Jewish people.

Then had to have at least eighty percent non-Jewish people. We had a lot of non-Jewish people in the business because...with my husband, when he was a young man and they were excellent with us. I mean...

Q: Did your husband have anything to do with the Jewish community during that period of time?

A: Oh yes. Oh yes. Definitely yes.

Q: What did he do?

A: He was in the...in the...how do you do...what is the name of that uh...in the business section and uh uh helping out the community in collecting money for them, but he was not a collector. He was just taking like like in the government, you have a person who is running the show and then you tell them what to do, so he was the top man almost in that...in that...

Q: Was it the community council that he was...?

A: Yes. Yes. That's the name. Yeah. He was a community councilor. He was sitting up. He wasn't sitting in his regular seat, you know, there and my uncle, my father was not...he was sitting down.

Q: So he was involved in...

A: Definitely. Definitely. What to bring. What to take. What to send. What to buy.

Naturally, this is volunteer work. You don't get paid for that.

Q: And what years was he doing that?

A: He was doing that for...even before he started to...let's say before 1939 because he didn't start with that. This was an honor and...for him...and he felt that he was honored with that, that...

Q: So he continued to do that when he returned from the labor camps?

A: That's right. Then he went back and we got a telephone call that...don't come back to the business because it's not yours anymore and we give it to another firm. Good. So he never went back. The bank account was closed. And this was it. We were still at our home, became a Jewish house because he worked it out because he was up there.

Q: What does it mean...it became a Jewish house?

A: It meant that uh gentile people who were living in the house, houses where we were living, if they want to they can go out and they can take other houses where the Jews will be taken out from their apartment and they can have better apartments or whatever, and these people will and all these people, not one couple left our building, and there was at least fifty-fifty.

Q: Who established your house as a Jewish house?

A: The Jewish . You had to ask for it. You had to have a reason because there are more Jews than gentiles for we should stay there. Now he was really there as a councilor and he said listen, we are fifty-four percent at least, and if you can do it, and I bring in in our apartment in every room some friends of ours...husband, wife, children, so according to that we had like six-room apartment here and they Ok'd it and the owner of the building Ok'd it, and so in every room we had a couple friends. I had an aunt and her husband and a son. He was sent to labor camp, shot in the with a child, and she was without. Then we had different friends. One is up in Toronto. Another one in ...

Q: But during this period of time...?

A: We were together.

Q: You lived in a safe house?

A: Yes. We were living in a safe house, yes.

Q: And that was the term that you used for the Jewish house?

A: Yes. This is what we used.

Q: And your husband during those periods of time when he was living with you in the Jewish house, maintained his contact with the...

A: With the Jewish ...this was the only place he could go. There was nothing for him anymore.

Q: During the time he was in the Jewish , did he have any occasion to visit with or meet with representatives of the government?

A: You mean with the Hungarian government?

Q: Yes.

A: Uh I couldn't tell you that. I can't remember that really, because they were not important in a way. They didn't have any demands on on the Jewish except that we should pay more taxes because the had a....the Jewish has a certain tax. We we we paid that. But nothing. The first one was when the Germans came in which was in 1944. There was no more labor camp for him, and uh the minute when we became allies to the Allies, then naturally the Germans who were allies became enemies

Q: And how did that manifest itself? What did you see?

A: Well, first of all, in our buildings were people, German-speaking people...one from Austria, a few from Germany...(cough-clearing throat) and we all spoke German and many other...a few other languages, and we got very friendly. They were younger people and they were out of their home, so they figured we invite them. They had beautiful libraries. Come over for a cup of coffee or some Hungarian cookies, you know, and they came over. When the Germans came over...took over, and I'm using the elevator, I see one of my favorite ones...he was the youngest. He was a Viennese and I knew Vienna very well. It was...I was there in school a long time ago then and uh he said, _, what do I do now? I mean you...are you an enemy? I said I am never... will be never an enemy and I am with you and whatever I can do, I'll do it. So this was a very good feeling and I didn't know...should I ask him to come in or shouldn't I? So I talked it over with my husband. I said...don't change. As what he said, you take his words. If he wants to, he comes in anyway, so don't say no, and he was right, so he came in and we were there.

One night around two-thirty...in the...it morning...sorry...somebody knocks our door, and

. This was the time when the Germans collected the people...two thirty in the morning. Nobody...everybody was sleeping so they could do that. He comes in. We we we were frightened, really very frightened, and he says listen...he was working for the Germans in the short-wave radio which means that he heard everything what came into Hungary and he was sending it over to Germany. He said I just heard that the Swedish king is giving a so-called schutzpass (ph)...papers who can prove that they were working with with Sweden or they have families in Sweden...they will tell you if you have anything like that. I know that your husband is bringing in paper from Sweden, rolls with

, and uh because we were importers, so please, this what I heard. Ask him to go up to the...one of the...on the Buda (ph) side, which are the side, go over there. Tell you heard that...you can mention even my name...it's official...and tell them what you know, what you have, business. They will check it and then you can have a Swedish uh paper that you are a Swedish...Swedish uh subject. Well, we couldn't believe it. My husband the next...this was early morning...two o'clock. At nine o'clock he was up there.

He crossed the Danube on the on the bridge and he found it and he told his name and he was telling the name of the factories what he was repre...representing and bringing a lot of lot of papers and uh with the papers were boxes, papers for for... for using package, newspapers...you know, the big rolls...so it was quite an ordeal, and they checked it. Naturally no time did they know the factory. They called it and they said oh yes, he's one of our biggest but we don't hear from them. Whatever you can say...I know Mr. Brust very well, or Herr Brust possibly and uh so he got...we were . | think we were the numbert...it's on the schutzpass what I brought to you...the number thirty-four, thirty-five...very...in the beginning, which meant we are Swedish subjects. We do not have to wear the stars, the Jewish stars which was recommend. It had to be done, which killed me morally because to be...you know, I can sit on the...and I cannot sit in the normal seat, let's say take a bus or sub...or a streetcar. I had to sit in the back. I could...you know, this was something which which...it's unbelievable. So we got that and

was an angel.

Q: How did that change your life, having the schutzpass?

A: Well, I felt uh a little bit easier, but I was ashamed and sad and very sad. First of all, I have a daughter and I had a husband. After I saw him what's going on with him and what happens to her. I mean this is...I give her birth. I mean we give her birth, so after all my husband has...my brother went out and I got letters from Zurich that I had relatives through my mother's side (coughing-clearing throat). My mother had wrote that Leslie's fine and he's wearing with big honor the...his new country's uniform because he became a a soldier and uh...

Q: But you in the time that you're describing now, when you had the schutzpass, you had been living in Budapest...

A: Budapest.

Q: ..and your husband was not working.

A: No.

Q: How did you support yourselves?

A: I don't know. I don't know. We started to...until we had money touched...that we could touch our money, we bought food and we filled up our pantry but uh there was time that we had once a day food and Eva was a poor eater anyway. Now that she didn't have that much money and that that that food what she liked, so she started to eat less and this broke my heart.

Q: So up until 1944, life was not too difficult?

A: No, but uh you couldn't...uh there were restrictions. You couldn't do this. At five o'clock you had to be home and uh the family who came living with us and the gentiles were really nice. No problem, and they helped us. They brought us food and they said don't worry. We will survive and then you'll give us back whatever we spent on you, or we give something for them, you know, whatever we had in our apartment.

Q: OK. So we've now established that through a period of time there were difficulties, but it wasn't all that difficult for you. When did it become actually a serious...?

A: We became...yes...when we were told that we should move in from that Jewish house uh to the Swedish house, because they cannot...the Germans won't respect our Jewish house and they will just...we we saw it. I mean they collected people on the street. They came in in the houses and uh in the morning, two, three o'clock. Uh in the meantime, the big war, the Germans went all over Europe. It started in Holland, in Belgium, always in the early morning and we heard that.

Q: What did you hear...that people were being collected?

A: First of all we didn't have a radio. We were not allowed to have a radio, so the big one...we had a big, old-fashioned radio...there was no television at that time...they took it away, but my husband had a small one, and we put it in his drawer, and he opened Churchill...German...I mean England.

Q: What was it that you were hearing that was happening to the Jewish people who were being taken away?

A: Well, everything what what went on...

Q: Which was...?

A: First of all in Austria, they collected the people. They went...they were taken to certain uh...even in my family. They were picked up and disappeared, and we didn't know. A cousin of mine who is here in this country...he's quite a young man...he's not a young man anymore...he and his mother were taken. Then we got a card, a postcard, some kind of...what is that...uh sea...not sea...uh uh what is that...it is like a uh....

Q: The specific place isn't important.

A: No. Anyway, he got a card...we got a card that he is .

Q: yes.

A: is a little...uh it's not an ocean. It's like a...

Q: It's a sea.

A: No, it's not a sea. It's it's a standing water. And you can swim in it.

Q: It's a lake.

A: It's a lake. I should know that. That was...I'm going absolutely...

Q: The question that I was asking was in reference...?

A: My husband was always in the Jewish . [showed him, look here what what what we got from Steven. So he said I just wanted to let you know. You know what that is...this is Auschwitz. I said what is that. And he got the notice from the...in the meantime is that Wallenburg showed up. Of course, he was an angel sent from God. I met him twice when I was going for my husband. I didn't want him to go alone on the street, and uh...

Q: Before we get to Mr. Wallenburg, I'd like to go back to that point about the Germans were collecting people...

A: Collecting people from their home. They take them out. They had a big truck down on the street. They were pushed in in the car. They never knew then where they're going, how long do they...will they be away, nothing.

Q: But you did get some indication that some...

A: We thought they are disappearing. In the meantime we heard the BBC, late evening, you know, quietly.

Q: Saying...?

A: And then Mr. Churchill and the English uh tele...uh radio told us what's going on in the war.

Q: What did they tell you?

A: They told us there is an Auschwitz. There is a Mauthaussen. There is a Theresienstadt.

We had never heard that.

Q: And what did they tell you was going on?

A: That this is a collection where the Hungarian people or wherever they are from Europe, they are put...they are put in a in a train without food. Everything is taken away from them before and then the left-over when they arrive and uh they are put in in ovens. So I said well, the English, I love them but uh they are crazy. How can they say that? I mean this is...it's impossible. You know, everybody said that because you don't believe that. So then Steven's first card came from and my husband says, you know what this is?

This is Auschwitz so I want to tell to my friends in the...with whom we are living still in our old house, in our old apartment, and we told...he told them. He was almost killed by our friends. They said you are crazy. You're picking up this news...this is...there is no such thing. And even so, if you hear it, tell it to Lilly, to your wife. Don't tell us because we don't believe it.

Q: And that was...that was...?

A: Don't ever say that. Just tell me. I want to know every word you want to say. Because I didn't want him to hold back.

Q: OK. So...

A: Then we went over to the Swedish house.

Q: And what was it like in the Swedish house?

A: This is a very beautiful house, four or five floors and uh we had the paper from the Swedish king that we are...we can stay there. We went in, early morning. Kitchen was full with mattresses. Everything was mattresses. So I said, you know...I was frightened and my husband says, you know, I don't want to stay there. So Eva said I am tired. I want to stay there. I sit down. She has this doll and uh a tack board (ph), . So I said leave it there sweetheart, and we will...doll here or a book and take the doll...now I remember well...and we will be back. We disa...we went out. They said don't forget you have to be back until five. . We never came back, because we decided but this is a collection for only Jews. The Germans was eating up Europe. Why should they stop in Hungary? There is no reason. They are in and they own us, so when they know...let's say the end...there is an end. They will still finish up the people in a collected house. He was absolutely right. I was upset because I couldn't believe that this can be.

Q: And where did you go?

A: We figured out that we are going in one of our own buildings in which we gave the the...an apartment as a superintendent to one of my husband's workers. He was with him for...he was a young man, still my husband, when he was working in the business there.

He was paper importer. He was quite a nice man. I knew his wife. I knew his son and we gave him that apartment. I don't know why that he should be our super in a no-charge apartment. It was a heated apartment. This was brand new. I mean, very modern. We didn't have too many like that.

Q: You had mentioned a moment ago that you met Mr. Wallenburg.

A: Yes. Yes.

Q: Was it at this time?

A: Uh Wallenburg was...I met him before we went to hiding. I was still a Jewish passport and I tell you how I met him. I picked up my husband and there was a big conference, and he was uh...my husband and the Jewish , the people, the President whom I knew very well there, Mr. Stern (ph), uh they had a big...and my husband said sit in in the back and just listen. You know that man? I said yes, I heard him but I never met, so he introduces...a very tiny looking, blue-eyed, blondish skinny man. If you would see him on the street, you wouldn't say oh my God, I have to look back, you know, because he's nothing. Very simple. And I listened. He spoke uh German and uh naturally and uh I listened and he said listen...I know, you have to tell me what you can do for the Germans, and you have to tell me what the Germans are telling me, telling you. Let's say they are collecting uh uh this part of the cou...of of the city or this part and I will be there and I try to stop the train that it shouldn't go, and and then he repeated it, so this was...this was something you can believe it. We still didn't believe it that this can be but he he said you also have it. So we gave him...every morning almost he was in. When he...when they...he knew that the train comes and picks up the people, he was there, early morning, late evening.

Q: What did he do?

A: First of all, he gave...uh he had papers. He said he's coming with me. I know...I need him.

He is...he's Swedish. He's French. You name it...stories. These were very simple Germans there. Naturally, I'm not talking because they were killers, and a lot of people were saved through him. He actually...happened that he stopped a a train...complete...one train. Not...I don't know how many, but just one part of the train. There were women, children and elderly or sick.

Q: Where did they go once the train was...?

A: He was sending...he...I can't tell you that. That's the honest truth. I don't know where they went, but wherever they went, the old came mostly who didn't die the natural death, came back. He was a miracle.

Q: During the time that you described your meetings with Mr. Wallenburg and his activities...

A: Yes, twice I saw him.

Q: ...were there any senior German officials with whom you or your husband had occasion to meet?

A: Yes. Mr. Eichmann.

Q: Mr. Eichmann?

A: Eichmann. He is the nightmare. He came in, very handsome looking, funny face...you know, something which is...which , very elegantly dressed, boots.

Q: You say he came in?

A: He came into the Jewish . He said I am so and this is my name or his title... don't remember what he was...and I am talking for my government. Now we are...we were allies and now we are enemies but we are still allies and when you want to uh have your...have your...the the freedom a few Jewish people, and I will have request for you, and if you can give it to me, I will take a few out and they can stay or we're going to send them...they don't go too far. We put them in the train, nice story. They will work. They will help us out in the factories here, factories there and that's all. Now we knew this wasn't true because we heard the BBC. This was our...this was the bible because we knew the truth.

Q: So Eichmann was telling you the story...?

A: Eichmann did that, so he came in and he said I need now I don't know how many beds.

Get them. Said we don't have beds. You have hospitals, Jewish hospitals, this hospital. I send my men and we just tell them they should give it to them, so then he he got that.

What do we get for that, we were asking, not to him but the...I mean , So he said well uh...he said a number, so we started to bargain.

Q: A number of what?

A: Of the people who...for the beds or for linen or for sewing machines or medications or doctor's help, then you get...they wouldn't take x Jewish people...hundred, fifty, twenty.

But it didn't matter because we give everything for for lifes, so they just...but sometimes he was very strong. I mean I want to have it done and then and then, and uh he got it. I don't know how they did that, I mean this...my my my people, how they did that, but they did it.

Q: How many times did you have occasion to meet with Mr. Eichmann?

A: Mr. Eichmann I saw a few times. Once I almost met him directly. That's a very funny thing. My husband was going down...it was still...he could go in to pick up to his business. No subway...no no...with a with a subway. There was a small subway we had but no streetcar, no buses. And uh his uh secretary with whom he met there to see what's going on called me around nine o'clock. We had still telephone but in secrecy because we didn't...we were not allowed to have, so it was everything in a drawer, so I called him and I said John, in Hungarian, uh where is Mr. Brust? No. I'm sorry. He called me and he says where is Mr. Brust, so he...I said what do you mean? He left at least three- quarters of hour. Even if he walked, he should be there in twenty...fifteen, twenty minutes. He said no, he's not in. So he said we are...I'm going down now and I'm going and I want to find out what happened. As I'm going down...a lot of people

walking and as I'm walking, a man and a...was a man and later a woman, as they are coming opposite me, they are talking to me. They don't...we don't know each other. They said don't go too far because they are picking up men and women, the Germans. And they just walked by. This was like a message, so I know what could happen...could have happened, so I went further, and I saw that there is a big commotion. I didn't go further because I didn't want to be picked up. I have a daughter and I don't have if I will be picked up. I went up to the Jewish , to the president whom I knew very well, and I said listen, I just found out...do you know anything about it? Well, you know, every corner they do that now. So he said I'm not interested in that. See, I am just looking now in one corner and this is my husband. He gave you a lot of help and I have one help. I want to know where he is, and you call up Mr. Eichmann...you know the Germans...and you tell him that he is one of your people here who are helping him and his wife is here...you can that, and I want to have him back. I can't do that. I can't call Eichmann.

You know, this...this was...he's the _ himself, so I said I am not leaving. I sleep here until you don't get...I don't care...Eichmann...whoever. Call up the German who give the order because there...every corner had a...so he saw that I am very stubborn, which I was.

Usually I'm not. Maybe I am. I don't know, and he called up the Germans and he found out that a lot of men, mostly men, a few women but mostly men, were picked up who were healthy looking, put in in a car...in a trunk...a truck, truck...and uh was taken up to clear and clean some house on the bigger side where we have villas, private homes, not uh building...apartment buildings, and this what they do, so he said find out where.

I said I'm not inter...don't tell me stories. Just call and find out where. If not, call Eichmann. I'm not going...he is coming to there. I know that this was the day when he usually came in for asking and I will stand there. Maybe he shoots me. I don "t care. But I want to talk to him. So...excuse me...so he saw again that, you know, there is no end to have me there so he figured he better...this meantime he walked in, just miracle again, and the president, he went in ...order order is what he said, so the president said, well there is a lady whose husband you met a few times and he was helping me. She just found out that he was picked up and was sent up to the mountain with many other men in a covered truck to clean some buildings. She's asking you, and there he was, uh could you send a message or something that he should be taken out from the whatever he does there, cleaning, because he's more important here than cleaning a house and he's not so good maybe in that. very funny face and said he will learn it, but he didn't say that and he...very elegantly he looked at me and said uh in German, , which means like madame or whatever, and he said, I try my utmost. Hold on. Like a perfect gentleman. He went away. He came back in a few minutes and he said don't worry. I know where he...where these people were taken to different houses but I know where he is...he gives the name...and I am sending up a car and we'll pick...will be picked up a few people included your husband. He didn't want to make one...this was very cleaver of him, and he will come home. So I said to him, can I take your word...you know, smilingly. I didn't insult him. So he said, like a German officer, he said. Then I said I believe. Thank you.

And there I was walking onthe __ from there. Came back and started...I was calling immediately our...his secretary... mean my husband's secretary, John. He is coming back. You walk on this side on the avenue and I'm walking this side. If he be in a truck, or alone, and he found him on the other side and they scream to me, call me, and when I saw him I said what happened. This what happened. They picked him up. What happened to the other part. They were sent...not all...a few came down. He said I was picked up...he had no idea what was going on, but I was up there. I didn't...1 wouldn't dare to tell him that, and I never did, and I said well, I just talked to the president after all and I told him that I would like to have you back because you are needed here.

Q: And once he got back...

A: He went immediately back to the to the --_ and said I am back. Thank you for asking for me and what can I do?

Q: And what did he do?

A: He was , you know, . Then but this I didn't see. with his orders and they were working together and get this and that and that. I think the biggest item was for them...I don't even know why...sewing machines, because they were sewing uh clothes and what not.

Q: And how long did this relationship with Eichmann go on?

A: Until uh the Russians started to come from the north. They was our allies because they were allies to the States, and then they closed up the houses. Everything was...we were in hiding. We were...this was before. We were still in our house. Then we went into hiding.

We went to the Swedish house. We were in hiding to our house. That came again a miracle. My little daughter, Eva was up with the super. She didn't look like a little girl from the country. She looked like a city girl, gray suit with long hair, and there was coming in a woman from the building...a lovely looking...I never met her before, and she asked...this I know from our super...asked uh who's that little girl? What a nice little girl.

My daughter got up immediately when she talked to her, and uh she said oh this is my sister's daughter, my son's nephew...my sister's daughter...she's my my uh...niece, and just for a short time and she goes back to the country. When she says to...she told me the story and uh the janitor, the super...I I I didn't believe what I heard. She made a funny face and then she said listen. She was a gentile woman. She lived in our building. She said I am going up to the mountains for uh skiing. I give you my keys for my apartment. This was very unusual because we then...we did not have keys. We didn't give keys to the super.

Here I do, because this is the way they have it, but uh there we didn't. We said there was always somebody at our apartment, most of the time, and she said if you want to you can use it or you want to put something in or take out something, I will be out there. Her husband was a Jewish man who had a white...not yellow star...a white band, because he was half...married to a gentile so this gave him...he wasn't taken out from the country.

This was the story. I never met him. I never her. So they left. Joseph comes in, down to the basement and says you know, we are going up...around five o'clock I'm going up to the : down into the basement. It was horrible down there. It was just horrible.

Q: In what way was it horrible?

A: First of all, it was cold. You had a tank for the heating system which did not work because they didn't put the heat on. We were...we heard the Germans...the the planes. We heard the Russians. We heard boots. We heard the war on the street. We...people came in the building, Russians or the Germans. They were...any Jews here? They said that.

Nobody. So we will go around and see. Well, you know, to sit down in the basement and waiting for them to come down, so Joseph said can I get you...this was...I never forget that...can I get you a cup of tea. It's not too good but luckily our teapot...whatever we had then. And they were so cold the Russians, so they sat down and they said thank you and uh I picked up naturally a few Russian words then and almost talked, not at that time but after, and they left so then Joseph came down and said | take you up to an apartment. You don't move. I bring you food, and I gave him my keys and I said you go over to my old apartment. Whatever there you can carry, bring it over to your kitchen and from there give us a little fruit...food. Your wife, you cook whatever and Eva should get some hot food. So this what happened. He went up to this apartment, to this woman's apartment.

Now L...we were...we stayed there for two weeks. I tell Joseph, Joseph put a little heat on.

Everybody who is in the building should have heat, but it's not allowed. Don't worry.

Nobody will ask you that why do we have heat. They will be happy. They will give you a tip for that. I was right, so at least we didn't...we were in an apartment. This was a one bedroom apartment, one...living room, bedroom...or two bedrooms. The child had a bedroom and Eva was there. We had linens. It was clean.

Q: And the war was going on around you?

A: And the war was absolutely going on. We were bombing day and night.

Q: And how long did that last?

A: Oh this went on till the war was finished.

Q: A period of...

A: Russia came in.

Q: A period of time of...?

A: And when we saw the first Russian...when we...we left this apartment after two weeks because uh the war, it it came in and uh we had a...my hus...my...wait a minute, how was that? Oh, I know. Then we left and we called a friend. They lived there very close by. He was an officer in the Hungarian army, a gentile person. He was working in my father's business. I saw him...I showed you maybe the picture. He was a watch importer from Switzerland, and actually I didn't even call him. He found out...he came in the building, found...finding us, trying to find us. Not he but she, the wife of his, lovely, tall, good- looking woman asked Joseph where are they. So he said I want to talkto__--_--. T have an apart...uh a home up on the mountains, which is a beautiful . We had there too but we didn't talk about it, and this was given by a Jewish family that we should take care of it, and this is empty. We are going up there. We don't want to stay in the city. I want to have these three people, so we went up to that apartment. Finally, the husband, who was an officer of the Hungarian army, was in Russia, was all over the German army because we were allies. He came home without permission. He was afraid. The Germans...he was not the Germans anymore, with the Germans because they became enemies. He was with the Russians, but he was in Russia with the Germans, so this was a very unpleasant feeling for him, and he was afraid so he left the army. He took...they took off his army stuff except a beautiful jacket which he picked up in Germany...in Russia, with uh fur...fur-lined, and he came up and so we got in to this apart...to this beautiful house.

There was another officer, . He...when the Russians came ___...first time I saw a Russian soldier in the other house , | was looking out in the...on the window and I said this is Russian. I saw the uniform, cap, so I went down. I was stepping on a on a high chair then because I was peeking really, and I said I don't want to tell you. They're going to frighten you, but the Russians are here. He said what are you talking about? So my husband _--<<. This was___ too, a very nice looking man, and the wife and the wife's mother, and they had a child which remain still in correspondence, in Hungary. Uh...

Q: And when they saw the Russian soldier...?

A: Well, they were happy, except him and uh well, I wasn't sure if I'm happy or not because I didn't...first of all, I knew that they are with the Americans so they cannot be that bad.

On the contrary, they are allies, but I didn't know that. So they came from house to house and they came into our house. The first one was , which means give me your watch. And this was a nightmare. Your not stealing from my hand. So my husband said in Hungarian, give it to him. After I gave it to him, he gave it back to me. He had at least ten watches on his arm. I'm not joking. He said where are the children? So our friends who owned...that owned what he was taking care of the house, he had a son, my daughter, and there was another unpleasant child which she never met before, and they were the owner's son. He was there with a little house in the back, and they were hidden there. So so we were very...then _ cames out with his beautiful fur-lined coat. When that Russian sees that...he was not a tall man, the Hungarian fellow...he picked him up like thatand __ where did you get that coat? This is a Russian...he spoke Russian. He said I got it...I was in Russia as an officer...or as a prisoner. It wasn't true but he was stealing it from the Russian which was...they steal from him. They were stealing from him, so he was stealing back and he was cold. He didn't believe that and then...but he put him down and he said keep your coat, but we are here now and you will help us speaking Hungarian and Russian, so he was like, you know, helping out, translating.

Q: And is that how the war ended for you?

A: Well, not yet. Oh no. This Russians...they were not bad. They were horrible looking with newspapers packed...uh their shoes. There were no shoes. They were using cigarettes and newspapers, picking up uh leaves, you never saw anything like that. They picked us up.

This Russian commander went...he became our friend. He brought some bread, but he was stealing that he was bring here. This was always...this was fine. A big Russian...it was late evening...he comes in to the...the Germans are coming back. We take you down.

We belong to them. And we didn't mind. To get Russian is better than the Germans. I don't know why but this...this was normal feeling and uh we were all transferred. There was a lot of people again and we got in a truck. We went down...I never was there...

Q: Down to...?

A: Down... ...we went down and we went out of Budapest which is let's say if I would come, get out from New York City from Manhattan and I'm getting over to White Plains and then going up near near New York State...

Q: A suburb of Budapest?

A: It it was not a suburb. It was a...it was a completely different little town, a village which the Russians took over from the Germans and there were bodies...German bodies. ___ that we had to get out from the trunk, from the truck and uh we were lined up. I said to my husband, Eva stays with...before me because if they shoot me I want she should be shot too, and then next you. I didn't want to leave the child alone. And we were ready for that, and then one of the Russians came in and said what are you doing? I brought them down. They are our people, so they went back. They didn't shoot us. They were ...was starting to get dark, and we were still walking. Eva was before me. She was...I want to go back. I want to slow down. I didn't let her...permit her to go...permit to go in the back.

Figured I'd loose her like that. She's always before me,so___ and a man comes out.

From far away , physically . This is...where are you going? So we said we want to go to sleep somewhere. Where are you from? So we said we are from the country. What is your name? We changed the Brust to Bollage (ph) which in Europe it's very...like here sometimes you can change it a Polish name or German name to make it American sounding, so Bollage is a very good name and a lot of families, a lot of people in our families changed it. It sounded beautiful. I always said, don't you want to...I want to be Brust. So I said fine, and we are Brust , So I told my name that we are that.

You come with us, and some other people with whom we met there, so we went there, and he had a little house and he had a basement for I don't know what, maybe washing or...we didn't have washing machines...and he gave us that and he gave...uh there was a mattress, two mattresses, and there was a...

PAUSE - BLANK IN TAPE

Q: ...Russians liberated Budapest and if you could tell us how the end of the war appeared to you and what you did with your husband and your daughter at that point in time?

A: Yeah. So when the Russians started out during the war that they were liberating us, and we were really lucky because when they went down to the village, there were Russians coming and going through the village. They...sometimes they came in in the houses and uh brought some food or...and that we should do it___ food and we should do it, and I wasn't a good cook and my husband had no idea what what cooking is, but there were others, so we helped. And then what they didn't use, they didn't eat up, they left it for us, but we couldn't do anything with that, but we were afraid from them. That's the honest truth. Even so they were liberating and I felt that uh they won't harm us, uh it was a very difficult time.

Q: Was there any characterization of your being Jewish at that time?

A: Uh this is very funny. Once a high officer, grey*haired, tall man...1 can see his face like a wild animal in the...in that little whatever that was and uh he said who you, who you, who you? I spoke rather very simple Russian. You pick up, you know, a few weeks you are with them...you pick it up the everyday words, so I said husband, wife, daughter, and he picks up Eva... almost died...and holds her and I said uh...I asked him would you give it back to me? So he said no, no. I don't harm him...her. So this...this was the end of the beginning. So uh...alright...so he...because you asked about Jewish, so he asked us, are you Jewish, or are you Catholic? Hungary is a Catholic country. And we didn't look Jewish, let's put it that way... no characteristics, nothing like that. So my husband...again, he was the cleaver...he said we are Jews and running from the Germans. Don't forget they were not allies anymore. They were against each other, so he goes into his pocket and I thought, my God, he will shoot us. He takes out a little prayer book and gives it to my husband. He cannot read Hebrew so I cannot either. I learned it in school because we have...the the Jewish children go to the Jewish uh religious hour and the Catholics to the Catholic _, same time. We just go different and then we go back regular. So uh...and I...and I knew that he he was because this was old-fashioned Hebrew and and so I tell him, uh I will tell you the the Jewish prayer ____ which I learned when I was a baby and that's all I know. He looks at me. He knows it, so he said sure he knows and she...Eva knows it, my daughter. He didn't...he put back his prayer book and he knew that we are.

He gave candy to Eva and he said, I am a Jewish Russian Jew and I promised myself that whenever I see a child, German or anything, I just do the same what they did to my children. They throw them out in the window. Funny. When he took Eva, I got frightened. I didn't know what it was. So he said I don't do anything to you. I bring you food until he was stationed in there and he did. Eva came back to me, naturally. She didn't even realize what went on, you know, because she didn't believe in bad and good.

In good she did, but not in bad things. That man was for a few days there. Then he disappeared. They were picked up with, you know, with the army and they went. Then we went to clean. I always carried Eva. I never took my husband. He was staying there. I ____ cleaning up a place where the horses were and the cows were, _ like that. I dida good cleaning, but after that we got two big loaf of bread, the Russian bread. You know, what we have here, the white bread...it's squarish (ph), and then we started to run because we figured I don't have the bread...I clean my whatever I had to. I don't want to get picked up. The reason the Kozack (ph) with the horses, they run all over, and as I said I spoke a few so they got close to us and one was bending down from this big horses and asked some Hungarian name, village and I told them to go this way. Thank you, and he went. Let me tell you, in ten minutes we were home, so called home. I said I I II don't know how I survived it.

Q: Well, from that point to your return...

A: The Russian...under the Russian...

Q: Under the Russians...

A: Under the Russia ..all the women put on their scarf and they were hiding their youth with . mean I was myself a young woman and uh and they were raped.

They were...these the men were horrible, the Russians. And I didn't have a scarf. I didn't have anything. Naturally I wasn't grayish like now. I had light brown hair and otherwise I looked the same except much, much younger. They never, never touched me, so when we came back...this was...this is again a miracle. Never. When we came back and we met our women friends and we talk, everybody said their story and it became a saying...cam you imagine, even the Russians didn't want to have Lilly. This was...you know...I was...so I said yes. I'm as ugly, I was old...not even they wanted to have me...

Q: Fortunately...

A: Fortunately.

Q: When you get back into Budapest, the war was over. You were back into your home.

A: Yes, the war was over. The Russians were in. We went up to our apartment...apartment.

There was no windows. They put back the second window, what I was telling you. We had no food. We had no uh linen. We had no heat...

Q: But you still had a hope to return...

A: But I was home. I was home. Nobody was in the apartment, so my husband didn't have to lull or throw anybody out. He wouldn't have it done anyway and we started to clean up the mess. I was...we were all going around looking up for the friends, for the relatives, who are thee, who are there. If we were walking on the street like ghosts. Some people came back from Austria with their outfits. The Americans were in Italy, in Vienna, in Germany naturally. I was...tried to get in contact with husband...with my parents, with my father. My mother died here in "42, so I never saw her again, and Leslie was in the army. I knew that but I didn't know where, he's alive. We were very close, and then I got from the military mission in Hungary who was General Key, K - E - Y, called me in, send out somebody and find out if you are alive. And then actually a Mr. Webster who was a Navy man...he was the one who was sent out by him...he's a little fellow, lovely...we fall in love with each other...not I and he but you know, the family...he was completely in white uniform and uh I am bring a message from Leslie Schwarcz, my daughter. I was with him in Italy. He is alive. He is fine. He went back to the States. He was three and a half years overseas. He was shipped in from uh California, Camp Kilmer, California, to uh...he went to , Africa, Rommel (ph). They had the war there. Then from there he went to Italy, to Casino (ph). He was sitting there for x months. I know that from Leslie and finally they stopped bombing and he came out.

Q: You had mentioned before that uh you were still interested in getting back to America...

A: Definitely...

Q: ...So during the period "45, "46, what did you do to...?

A: I tried to go up to the American Consul and find Mr. uh Cunningham (ph) but he wasn't there any more and then they started to have that uh problem with the new cou... mean the amb...amb...he wasn't ambassador...I think he was the counselotr...yeah...and we didn't hit...you know he was a little bit...you know, he is completely different what Cunningham was. He found our papers and I said we would like to continue that. We had the permission. It's a number and everything, and I would like to...my brother was...he went back to be discharged. My father was sending somebody through General Key. He was the top man. It was a military mission. A beautiful they were. This was a big

Q: And how did you actually get your papers then to return...

A: It took a long long time because uh...he was very unpleasant. He was having interviews and interviews being this, being that, what did we do, why didn't we...and so my husband felt that he doesn't want to answer anymore after so many months. He knew our story before and during that time we didn't become communists. He was a man on his own always and he wants to come to the new country, not because of him but because of me and especially for Eva.

Q: When finally...

A: Finally he saw that...and my husband said I'm not coming back anymore. If you feel that we are good enough for your country, which I hope we do and we will be, then you let us know. In forty-eight hours we got in the mail the permission and he called us and he excuses that a lot of people were communists and now they want to go to the country, and a lot of people came to the country. Just Camp Kilmer. We went out there and checking and helping...

Q: So in 19...in 19...?

A: Leslie came over to Hungary after he was discharged and when I saw him, I don't know want to tell you how I felt. He brought American chocolate and he...Webster, Bob Webster who was the Navy man...he became our friends. We showed him around Budapest. He was a Jewish man. He went in with my husband to the temple. I got him dinner. I don't know what it was. My father was sending the SOS care packages, corn flakes which I didn't know what it was, and I read it and it said put in the heavy cream and the fruit. We didn't have heavy cream so I threw it out because I didn't know what it was.

Q: So the story then comes to its conclusion...

A: Conclusion, that we came to this country and uh this is my home.

Q: 194...?

A 1947.

Q: 1947, in the spring. So it took two years after the war to get here?

A: Sure. Yeah.

Q: And since then you have...

A: Oh my God...I'm I'm more here in...during...in my life time than I was there, because I was very young here...there, but still uh there is something which you cannot forget. You cannot forget your family tree, going back for three hundred years. You counted back the family with whom you were sitting. Even now, when I am going, having my...in my house or now my daughter takes over, the family getting together, starting from Thanksgiving and the Jewish holidays and uh so you know, and whenever I see the table, naturally new hou...new faces because they got married, new children, which makes me happy, and I still see the faces when I was a child. My mother, father, you know (crying)...and uh...excuse me...so then...but my husband died here..."57, just after the Hungarian revolution. Before that we still went out to , pick up a lot of friends who didn't know what happened to them. We put them in the right track more or less...a few which I would send back immediately...very upset and this is something for me I could never believe that this can happen and a country can do that, even for the new people and there was a lot of enemies who were enemies to this country. They were giving food...I mean the table and the food and the streets were named like ___or the names of the Hungarian rivers, of the Hungarian cities, villages, uh different temples, churches, Catholics...to every one of them. I mean for me, I I just couldn't believe it and then...

Q: Well, you've helped us to believe what you've gone through for which...

A: After a few months he died. He brought this sickness...he had some problem with his heart but he was working. He did very well here. He was uh...I was working actually and I told my friends when I took my first job...I had only one job...I was there forever, until he died and then I stayed there. I wasn't well for six months, five, six months. Then I called back...Eva called back actually but...do I have my job and says definitely, whenever she comes in, so I was there.

Q: Well, you not only have your memories but now we have a better awareness of what you have been through, so for that, again, we all thank you.

A: It's very personal what I said but...

Q: That's the only way that it makes sense.

A: I love this country. I 1 am happy. I am blessed. I have unfortunately a lot of uh a lot of uh in the cemetery...my parents, my husband, my brother Leslie just a year ago died.

Q: But we have you with us now and your daughter, and we're going to benefit from that.

A: Grandchildren...grandchild...1 mean granddaughter and her husband...

Q: And with that...with that we're going to thank you.

A: I thank you for listening.

Q: Thanks very much.

A: You made me very proud to be included in that...

Q: Thank you. You did beautifully.

PAUSE IN TAPE

TECHNICAL CONVERSATION This we call schutzpass. This is a paper which the Swedish king gave for the Jewish people which meant that they became Swedish subject. We didn't have to wear the star, the Jewish star, anymore on your...on our coats or dresses or blouses and we were protected by them. So was my husband. He received a...this says about the same what I just told you in English. In Hungarian and I believe in Swedish. There is Sweden and there is which is in Hungarian, Swedish or Sweden, and it was done in...what was the date...no, this is when I was born. This is my name...Lillian Schwarz born and married Brust, B - R- U-S - T and this is my picture and my signature. And I think on the bottom you will see the date when it was given, somewhere on the left side maybe.

There.

TECHNICAL CONVERSATION There must be a date on the bottom. "44. Yeah. That's it, yeah.

TECHNICAL CONVERSATION

PAUSE IN TAPE This is my husband, Elek Brust, born in Hungary. We were married until 1957 when he passed away in this country. He was in labor camp two times from 1940 till 1944. Then we went underground. This is in Hungarian and the other side is in Swedish, where the king explains...I mean the paper explains that we are Swedish subjects. This is where he was born and the date, 15 December 1899, Budapest. This is his signature and the stamp of the Swedish king. He looks terrible there.

TECHNICAL CONVERSATION Uh this is a paper written in Hungarian, given by the Hungarian ministerial saying that Elek Brust, born uh 1899, his mother's name, was uh given uh excuse for a time from the labor camp. Yeah.

TECHNICAL CONVERSATION This is a postcard from my husband's labor camp, what he was sending whenever he could have. You see there a a...what is that...a stamp, not a round one but just the words which means that this was checked by the...in the labor camp, whatever he writes can go out from the camp. Now he is writing me here I should go to the...he tells me what I should do...go to the uh...oh that I shouldn't forget to pay in the taxes if it is important still and this is...this is the end of my card...the card...the other side is the starting...and you and Eva, our Eva, I am sending you a lot of kisses. Your Elek. And the first part is...

TECHNICAL CONVERSATION This is a family picture just before my parents came back second time to the States which was 1939. First time was 1933. These are... will maybe say it...the bottom row, the second one, Auschwitz, my aunt, my mother's sister. The next one is my father and my mother who came to this country. We said good-bye to them. The next one, my mother's brother, Auschwitz. Uh the next one, an aunt of my father's, my uncle's wife, Auschwitz.

This lady died in Hungary, starved and so on. The last one on the bottom line, Auschwitz.

The gentleman on the second row, right, died in Hungary in hunger. The next one, my uncle whose wife is the third one from the bottom on the right, came back to this country.

He was killed here. They robbed his little store and he was killed and died. The next one, the woman next to him, Auschwitz. Next to him, the uncle, Auschwitz. Next to him, my aunt, Auschwitz. My uncle died natural, thanks God, death in Hungary. He was very sick.

Next to him is his son, Steven, Auschwitz. But he didn't die. He survived and he came to this country and he's a happy, married woman, a son who is a doctor and two lovely grandchildren. Next to me is me. I'm here, thanks God. Next to me is one of my favorite cousins, the girl, Auschwitz. The lady on the very end died here in this country. Her husband was killed who is the top on the...with the glasses on the right side. Uh to this aunt of mine was my cousin who was a lawyer. I saw him before he was taken, Auschwitz. Next to him is my husband who died in this country and uh oh this gentleman on the very end, Auschwitz, the fat one, and the girl was a was the maid possibly helping for a good-bye dinner in a very small family. All the children were missing I mean because they were too young to be there.

End of Tape #2

Conclusion of Interview