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ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion

LENA JURAND

August 15, 1998

Q: This is the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum volunteer collection interview with Lena Jurand, conducted by Gail Schwartz on August 15, 1998 in Washington, D.C. This is tape number one, side A. what is your full name?

A: My name is Lena Jurand.

Q: And your maiden name?

A: Salzburg.

Q: Where were you born and when were you born?

A: I was born in the city of Przemysl in 1917.

Q: What day, specifically?

A: The 13" of September.

Q: And the town is in Poland?

A: In Poland.

Q: In the district of Lvov?

A: Well, according to the latest arrangements, Przemysl is almost at the border, the Polish-Russian border, because Lvov has become a Russian city, it's not Polish any more. But when I lived there, it was a town of about 60,000 people, of which 22,000 were Jewish. I went to a Catholic school. My father didn't want to send me to the Hebrew gymnasium because it was co-educational with the boys. So I went to a Catholic school. And I find the arrangements that they had were very smart. On 44 Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

girls, we were 20 Jewish. So we had a religion class. We had to leave the class and go to another, we Jewish girls. And we had a rabbi who came and gave us a lesson in religion. I liked the priest better, he was young and handsome. We had to stand up at the beginning of our classes and listen. Not say it, but li-- stand in the respect of their prayer. And we had to stand up before we left for home. That was the only thing we had to do. Otherwise, we had our religion class. And we had a few Jewish teachers, even though it was a Catholic school. We didn't have nuns. The only -- the only way they could prove that it was a Catholic school was that we had the prayer in the morning and the prayer in the afternoon, which we didn't participate in, we just stood and listened, and that was all. Was a very fine school, and a very fine education.

Q: Let's talk a little bit now about your family.

A: My family.

Q: How long -- how far back can you go, of generations that lived in that town?

A: Well, I--I know my grandfather, who lived there, and my grandmother, who later, when she was older and ill, stayed with us in our house. My father, as a 16 -- my grandmother, poor, limping grandmother, who had one leg shorter than the other, she was very small, had 11 children, of which 10 were boys and one girl. She was very happy when they took off and went to America. The boys. I know of two Interview with Lena Jurand deg August 15, 1998

were here, living here in -- in New York, but my father came here as a 16 year old boy. He was a very handsome boy and he was addicted to the theater, to the Yiddish theater. So when he came to New York, besides learning a trade to become a tailor, he joined the Yiddish theater in New York. And I grew up on stories of great Boris Tomachevsky and Luther Adler. And he played with a young boy by the name of Muni(ph) Weisenthal, which was pel -- Paul Muni later. And I still remember my father in Poland, in a Jewish theater, where he played King Lear.

Q: King Lear in Yiddish?

A: In Yiddish, absolutely. But, after staying in New York City for 11 years in very, very poor conditions, he got sick. He had TB. And at that time TB was not easily cured as it is now, so he was so frightened that he took a boat and went back to mama, to Poland. He never returned. But we lived with New York times all the time and I lived with the stories of the Yiddish theater, and that was my dream when I was a young girl, to come to New York.

Q: What was your father's name?

A: Isadore(ph). I remember him in the Yiddish theater, and so was my mother. I think they met in the Yiddish theater. My father was an extremely handsome man.

Q: Well, the -- the picture doesn't show up on the tape.

Interview with Lena Jurand deg August 15, 1998

A: Yeah, I know. He -- he did very well in his profession, he was very successful, he had a good business, and he had workers working for him. He specialized in ladies" coats and suits, no dresses, and he used me as a model. He would say, put on a coat and go for a walk. My mother helped him in the business and he was very successful. My father by -- he -- he used to call himself a -- a--a socialist. He be -- he belonged to the Polish socialist party. And when the Russians cov -- came into our town, I was very concerned about him because he was wealthy, very well known.

They didn't touch him. They didn't touch him. He closed his business and he was sitting home, working there, and he survived. I was afraid they will take him to Siberia. And I shouldn't have been afraid, it would have been better had they -- had they taken him. Well, they didn't. When the Germans came in, he became one of the -- you -- are you familiar with the Judenrat?

Q: We -- we -- we'll get to that in awhile.

A: Oh, we gonna get to it, all right.

Q: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about your mother's family.

A: My mother's family. I don't remember my mother's family as well as my father's. He -- she had a sister, older sister who lived also in PrzemySl. They all -- who had -- they had three children, two boys and a girl, they all died, m-my mother's sister and her family, they all died. She also had a brother who worked for my

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998 father, he was a tailor and was married and had a little boy. They all died. From my family, nobody survived. I'm the only one, unfortunately. From my husband's family, his father and mother came to Przemysl during the war, we got them there.

We thought we can take better care of them. I took them to the train.

Q: So, what was your mother's name?

A: Anna. She was a very, very smart, clever woman. She was the one to -- who encouraged me to go into hiding during the war.

Q: Well again, we" ll talk about that later.

A: Yes, we will talk about.

Q: Did you have any brothers or sisters?

A: No, I was an only child.

Q: And how much of your extended family was in the area?

A: My ex --

Q: Aunts, uncles, cousins?

A: Well, it was my mother's sister, that was the only one. From my father's family, most of them went to America.

Q: How religious was your house, yo-you --

A: It was, I would say a standard religious home. In other words, my father was a president of a shul, oh yes, and he used to take me with him where men were ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand deg August 15, 1998 praying, until I rebelled one day and I said I don't want -- I want to go where women are, and to this day it bothers me when I sit together with men. But my mother was less religious. She would be in the store on a Friday and she would forget to light the candles, or couldn't go home. She would say to me, go home and light the candles, so Father wouldn't know. He didn't like it. He was -- he was a -- in his way he was a religious man, yes. He -- he -- I used to love Seders because my father would come home freshly shaven from the barber, smelling of powder and -- and we would sit at the table and he would say dom(ph) sefredyah(ph) and instead of doing that, I would do this [indecipherable] always -- he always smiled at me when we did that.

Q: These are the plagues?

A: Yes. He was very well known in town. My father had -- my mother was the brain of the family, my father was the heart. He had a big heart. From the age of 10 to 18, I went every summer with my father for a whole month of July, to the Polish Tatra mountains. There was a resort in that Polish Tatra mountains on the -- almost on the Czechoslovakian border, where people with TB would come, first of all because of the weather. It was marvelous, it was in demand. Secondly, they had special waters.

There was one water that was specially for people with lung problems, and the water was later bottled and sold in pharmacies. So we went every year, and he would always rent two rooms. I never slept in the same room where my father was. I was http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand deg August 15, 1998 not allowed to enter the room where my father slept, he was so afraid that I might catch the TB from him, although he was under doctors" care. A -- but nevertheless, he always rented two rooms with an adjoining ba-balcony, and I -- one was for me, and one was for him. And we would fight constantly, he and I, constantly. Every year at the end of the season when we were in those mountains, I would say, I will never go with you again. He says, if you pay me I wouldn't go with you. Until the next year. And the next year, May came, I saw his eyes looking at me and he says, are you starting to pack? And we went. We left Mother in the store, she was probably very glad to get rid of us. And --

Q: What was the name of the town?

A: Przemysl.

Q: No, no, the -- th-the resort in the mountains.

A: Oh, the resort. That's hard, Szezawnica, s-z-c -- c-z-a-w-n-i-c-a, Szczawnica. It was a place that was -- there was no train station there, there was no bus. So we went to the nearest town and we hired a taxi and we would go there. And the reason I am telling you this is because I was about 14 years old, I always travel with my music, I played piano. And my father had very few requirements of me, but one of those was that he rented always for me, a piano, where I could go and play an hour a day, practice my piano. We arrived to the station, and those Jews living there knew him, ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Lena Jurand a August 15, 1998 because he was there year after year after year. So they were waiting for him to arrive. And as soon as we arrived, they would tell him something, something very important, and he would turn to me and say, do you have your music with you? I said, yes, of course I have my music, I always have it. He says, well, there is a--a family, a mother and father, Jewish family and two children and they are very poor and they don't have enough food. So I, being a spoiled little thing, I said to him, Father, I don't understand, if they are so poor, why do they go to a summer resort?

Which was a logical question. But he was enraged. He says, you mean to tell me that the -- only the wealthy can have good air and good waters? We have to do something about it, he decided. He says to me, do you have that pink chiffon dress that the dressmaker just finished for you? I said yes, I have it. He looked at my hair and he said, we'll take you to the hairdresser and have some very nice curls made. And I said, what do you have in mind? You're going to play the piano, we'll give a concert and we'll collect money. I said no, I'm not going, I am not prepared to give any concert. I was 14 years old. He says, we will find a boy who'll play the fiddle. And if they see a girl and a boy playing, who cares whether you playing well or not?

We'll collect the money. And here's exactly what he did. He hired a place, he found a boy, I played with my music because I didn't memorize anything, and he, he didn't Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

care, he collected the money for the people. That was my father, always caring about people, a lot.

Q: You had said that he was politically oriented.

A: Yes, he was a social -- he used to say he was a socialist and I would -- I would joke and say, a wealthy socialist.

Q: So you would describe your family as being upper class?

A: Yes, yes, yes, I would describe as being -- he never mastered the Polish language and I felt very embarrassed because of that. He -- he spoke English, he spoke Yiddish, and they spoke Yiddish to each other, but never to me.

Q: What did you speak to him?

A: Polish. And I offered him that I would teach him Polish. He didn't want to. But I found later that the knowledge of Yiddish was very helpful to me. I didn't know I knew it. When I came to Munich, Germany, and I taught piano in a DP camp, I had children from all over Europe, but they didn't speak German and they didn't speak Polish. So I didn't know how to reach them. I started with my broken Yiddish, and that's the way I reached them. That's the mail.

Q: What kind of neighborhood did you live in?

A: I lived like you would live here, let's say on Connecticut Avenue. The main street of the city.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection ; Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

Q: Did you live in a house or an apartment?

A: No, we lived in an apartment. And our store and factory was about a half a block away from where we lived.

Q: What was the name of the street?

A: Franciszkanska.

Q: Was it a Jewish neighborhood, or a mixed neighborhood?

A: Well, it -- it was primarily Jewish, yes. It was the downtown of the city. And most of the stores were owned by Jewish people, yes, yes.

Q: And did you --

A: It was a lovely city. We never had any crime, we never had to lock our doors when we went out. When -- there was one taxi standing at the station and if somebody took that taxi, the whole town knew it. At the same -- at this -- at the house where we lived, downstairs were three -- two young ladies. They were not so young, they were older. Unmarried, who had a --a store with sweets; candies and things like that. And that was my mother's favorite store, she -- there was a chair for her there and she would always sit in the evening and chat with them. I never had to pay for anything. I didn't need any money. As soon as I say who I am, it went on paper and my mother later paid for it somehow, I don't know.

Q: Did you have many non-Jewish friends?

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand 8 August 15, 1998

A: [had --Ihad one Polish girl, non-Jewish. The other one was Jewish. No, I-- we -- as I said, we were -- we were 20 girls for a 44 girl class, so there were quite a number of Jewish girls, yes.

Q: How -- for how many grades did you go to this Catholic school?

A: From the first to eight, eight years.

Q: And then what did you do after that?

A: After that I started to go to a conservatorium, which was Ukrainian, in Przemysl.

There -- it was a very, very funny arrangement because I -- I didn't speak Ukrainian, but I could understand it. They spoke to me in Ukrainian, I answered in Polish, and we understood each other.

Q: This is a music school?

A: Music, yes, where I studied piano, yes.

Q: Did you notice when you were younger, even in those eight grades or in the conservatory, any indication of anti-Semitism?

A: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. In all my years in that school, I have never heard something said against Jews, or against us as Jewish girls. As I said, we -- I had -- I had two -- three teachers who were Jewish. I didn't feel at all, any anti-Semitism.

And I think my hu -- from what my husband was telling me he felt very comfortable in his school too.

Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

Q: What was the name of the school that you went to, the elementary school?

A: That I went to?

Q: The Catholic school?

A: Maria Konopeniczka(ph). That's a name of a Polish [indecipherable].

Q: Now, y-you said that you loved Seders.

A: Yes.

Q: Any other favorite holidays that you had growing up?

A: Oh, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, of course.

Q: And do you have particular memories of?

A: Oh yes, oh yes, yes, I remember that. Well, I used to joke because when my mother -- mother has a pair of very beautiful diamond earrings, and she -- that was her pride and joy, and she kept it in a safe deposit. When sh -- I knew when the Jewish holiday is coming because Mother took out her earrings, yes, yes, yes.

Q: How would you describe yourself? Were you a very independent child? Were you --

A: I was totally immersed in my studies. Totally. I-- well, of course my father was very strict as far as boys are concerned. I mean, there was no dating, absolutely nothing But I -- I was a very good scholar in school, and I also had to spend a lot of time pratic -- practicing my piano. So I didn't have much time for other things.

Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

Q: Were you interested in sports, or art?

A: No, no, the only sport my father allowed me was tennis. He did not allowed me g --to go skating. He was afraid that I probably break my leg, probably. I wasn't particularly -- but, in Przemysl, the city is divided by a river. A river with very, very clean water. And in the summer we had kind of a arrangement. They built a wooden -- wooden cabanas at the edge of the river. And it was done very smartly, that you didn't feel that you have a proper figure and you wanted to have a b -- wear a bathing suit. You could go to the wood cabana, there were steps there going down into the water. You could emerge in the water without being seen by anybody. And this is how we spend our summers, beautifully. Beautiful river. It was a good life, it was a very peaceful life, until the war.

Q: Yeah. What kind of relationship did you have with your mother?

A: My mother used to whack me, until I was 16 years old. And she used a coppered beater as her favorite object, and I got my beating only for the piano lessons. You see, I had a notebook. For each piano lesson she would write in the date, what was my next assignment and at the bottom was a mark from each lesson. If I had a A or a B, it was all right. If I had a C, I was licked. And yet, she was my best friend. When I grew up, she was my best friend. When I got married, it was already 1940. Times were starting to be very bad, I discovered that I'm pregnant, and I went to my

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand 6 August 15, 1998 mother and I said, Mother, I am pregnant. She didn't -- she didn't bat an eyelid. She said, then we have to get an abortion. She went with me. She got the doctor. In Poland, to get an abortion is like to spit. As long you have enough money, no problem. She got the women doctor and another doctor who was present. She took me there. I got an abortion. She says, you cannot have a baby now. And if I had that baby, I wouldn't have survived, that's for sure. And after that she said to me, you can rest for 10 minutes, then we walk back home. And we walked home, and on the way there she must have seen that I was tired. She said -- we passed an ice cream parlor and she says, would you like some ice cream? So we sat down. She was a very smart woman. She treated me to the ice cream, then she took me home.

Walking, mind you. And then, when we came home, she said, Father must not know about it. You go now, undress and go to bed and lie down. But at dinnertime I want you dressed, sitting at the table, eating dinner with your father. And this is exactly what I did. He never knew that. He was much more sentimental that she was. She was a very great realist. She knew what is going on. Very smart woman.

Q: What was her family name?

A: Weitz. W -- w-e-i-t-z, Weitz.

Q: Hitler came into power in 1933 and you were 16 years old then. Did -- when did you first hear of him? Were you aware of that?

Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

A: It's funny, I wasn't aware of it at all. I mean, I knew he is in Germany, but we were -- this seemed so far away. Total -- we were totally not concerned about it. Even in deg38 I wasn't concerned about it. In deg39, when he finally attacked Poland, this is when I realized that very hard times are coming.

Q: So, up to September 1939, your life went on?

A: Was very peaceful, very peaceful. I met my husband when I was 14 years old. I had a cousin who lived in Lvov. She was a perpetual matchmaker. And she probably figured out, here is that boy who -- he was a -- kind of tutoring children on the upper floor where she lived, and she thought he was a very nice boy, she liked him. And here I have that cousin of mine who is 14, let me introduce them to each other. And she did that. She invited me for -- for Pesach, to come and visit with her, and I did.

And I went there and she introduced me to that boy. And he -- the first thing he asked me was to go for a walk in the park with him. And I forgot my gloves and my hands were very cold, and I was always preoccupied about my hands because of the piano. So we were walking in the park and he took my hands into his hands and he say -- he was -- see, he said to me, I will always keep you warm. He was ready to go to medical school, and there was innumerous clauses in Poland, as you know. And as his brother lived in Italy, in Genoa, and was a very known dentist, he was ready to go to his brother to study medicine. So when -- he took me to the train when I left, http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand a August 15, 1998 brought me some flowers, and I came home and my father said, what are those flowers from? And I said, well, a boy gave it to me. My father said, throw it away.

He went to Genoa and he wrote letters to me, and of course I wasn't allowed to date anyhow, so there was no danger of my dating, but --

Q: You're still 14?

A: 1am 14. And for vacation he came to Poland, so he came to us to visit us. And my mother was absolutely crazy about him.

Q: His name?

A: Julian. He was -- he was her ideal. He was very well dressed, very sophisticated, it seemed to her. And my father would say, well, it seems he is a nice boy, but -- there was always a but -- you are too young.

Q: He would come to school to wait for me and my girlfriends were so jealous. But of course I didn't date anybody else, and -- and it -- I waited for him seven years. Oh, I-- one didn't get married, not unless your husband can support you. So I waited for him seven years. And then he came to Poland in 1938, and he was stuck; 1939 the war started. So that's where our tragedy started.

Q: So wha -- when did you get married, what date?

A: In 1940.

Q: What date?

Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

A: In Lvov, by a rabbi, in a rabbi's home.

Q: Yeah, what -- what month?

A: What month? In May. May 1940.

Q: So, up to -- so through the 30's, you went on with your education --

A: Yes.

Q: -- and your music and so forth?

A: Oh, absol --

Q: And you were in touch with Julian?

A: Yes. We wrote -- he wrote letters and I answered him letters. And I --I felt very comfortable with his family. I --I really fitted very well with his cousins, his aunts, his parents, I liked them very much.

Q: Did he -- did he talk about what was happening in Germany at all? Was he aware?

A: He didn't talk much about it. No, he was in Italy, having a very good time, living with his brother and sister-in-law in a beautiful apartment. So, we didn't talk about it. It seemed so remote at the time.

Q: Had you heard about Kristallnacht in November 1938?

A: Yes, yes. Of course.

Q: What were your thoughts?

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection 0 Interview with Lena Jurand August 15, 1998

A: But this was in Germany, you know, it wouldn't come to us, it was there. That's what we thought. It's funny, nobody realized what is going to happen.

Q: Did you feel very Jewish then? I mean, these terrible things were happening to Jews.

A: Absolutely, absolutely, very Jewish, very Jewish. And --

Q: And you -- did you feel under threat because you were Jewish at that time, in "38?

A: Not in Poland. And if -- and it's funny because Julian was living in Italy, where Mussolini was at that time. But this was before he -- he w -- formed the friendship with Hitler. And Mussolini at the time was very nice to Jews there. He changed later. So, in 19 -- you know, Przemysl has quite a past in politics. It's -- it's not -- not a--TI don't think a lot of people know about it. But in 1939, the Germans came from the west, the Russians from the east, and this is where they met, in Przemysl. The river was the border. And it stayed like that for almost a year, until 1940. And then I --at that time I lived in Lvov with my husband, we got married and I lived there in the beginning. But my father was telling me later that one night, without any preparation or anything, they were not aware that it's coming. They started shooting at each other, the Germans and the Russians, and it was in my town. And my father said it was the most heroic shooting that he has ever witnessed. For some reason, the Russians must have gotten an order to just leave it and pull back. So they did. As a http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection 1 Interview with Lena Jurand August 15, 1998 consequence the -- the Germans occupied the whole city. And that's when the trouble started. [break]

Q: This is a continuation of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum volunteer collection interview with Lena Jurand. This is tape number one, side B.

Let's talk about when the war started. The Germans came into your town September 14", 1939. Wer -- were you there then, and if so, what were your thou -- your memories?

A: In 1939 they came to my town, but occupied only one part of the town. There's the center river, was the border. The other side was occupied by the Russians.

Q: What -- what side were you on?

A: On the Russian side. And --

Q: And you were in the town at the time?

A: Oh yes.

Q: What do you remember from that?

A: Wait, wa-was I in the town? Let me think about it. No, that's not correct, I was living in Lvov.

Q: When did you move to Lvov?

A: I--I was in Lvov because I married my husband there in 19 --

Q: But you married in -- mar-married in 1940.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

A: In 1940, that's right.

Q: We're talking about September deg39.

A: Yes, why was I in Lvov? Maybe I was in Przemysl, I don't remember that. I know only that the war was, without -- without pity, without -- without any -- they were so -- the Russians were fighting beautifully, but they had an order to leave the whole city and move back. So they left the city and the Germans consequently moved in. And this is when trouble started.

Q: What was your first impressions of the Germans?

A: Well, I didn't -- I really didn't realize what is going on. At first I saw some simple soldiers in the city, the SS didn't move in yet. And it was relatively peaceful in the beginning. They didn't start right away with the ghetto, the ghetto was formed much later. But my father was very depressed, he probably felt that it's going to be very hard. And the first thing they did is to choose a Judenrat. You know what a Judenrat is?

Q: The Jewish council.

A: The Jewish council. And my father was chosen as one of those. So we always thought that because he is a part of the Judenrat he is relatively safe. The first thing that I remember is that we were sitting in our apartment, it was -- we were not in the ghetto yet, there was no ghetto yet. And a few German soldiers knocked at our door ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand s August 15, 1998 and I came to the door. And my father was sitting in the dining room at the table.

They didn't see him. And I came to the door and they ask me whether there are any men in the house? And I said no, it's just me and my mother. And they looked at me, they -- they thought about it for a moment, and they left. They didn't go in. Had they gone in they probably would have taken my father, that was the first time I saved him. And --

Q: You are 22 years old now --

A: Yes, I was 22 years old.

Q: -- in 1939.

A: And my father used to say, I don't know, I don't like it, I don't like it at all. They come to the Judenrat and they ask for a lot of money. You know, they wanted money from the members of the Judenrat and you had to collect the money to give it to them to pacify them. And then my father came home one day and said, I think we are going to move to a ghetto. They are forming a ghetto.

Q: Were there many refugees from other parts of Poland in Tremisz(ph) by then?

A: Not by then. They came later. They formed the ghetto on the other side of the city, which was not primarily Jewish. In other words, it was not occupied by Jews.

And--

Q: Well, that was a little later.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand 4 August 15, 1998

A: That was later.

Q: Yeah, let's, before we get to the ghetto --

A: Yes.

Q: -- let's talk about the -- what the conditions were. Up t -- in the late 30's what were you doing? You were still going to that music school?

A: Yes, I was going to the music school.

Q: You were going to the music school all the way up to the time of the war starting?

A: No. There was one year when I took off. I forgot to tell you about it. I-- I ask my father permission. I wanted to study cosmetology in Lvoy, as I had that cousin and I could have stayed with her. It took a year. My father was terribly against it, he said, you want to become a hairdresser? I said, no, as a hairdresser, I want to study cosmetology. Well, he said all right. So I went to Lvov and I spent a whole year there. And that was in 1938. And it was a very happy year, very nice year. I worked there and my -- when my husband would come for occasion, he would teach me about skin layers, because he was -- he was a medical student, so he knew more than I did. And I spent that year in Lvov, and then I came back home. But --

Q: So now the German -- now you're back in Tremisz(ph) and the ger --

A: The Germans, yeah.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand 8 August 15, 1998

Q: -- the Germans, and how did your life change then, when the Germans first came in?

A: Well, it became, first of all, much more complicated, because there was a struggle for food. There was a struggle for -- the insecurity, especially was very, very, very -- I mean, you didn't know what's going to happen the next day. They constantly had different orders, especially with the Judenrat. I used to help out in the Judenrat, my father asked me to come and do some work there. So I would sit there and I would watch them. But this was relatively s -- quiet the first year. When it became really bad was when they formed the ghetto.

Q: What about your father's business?

A: Oh, he closed his business.

Q: When?

A: He closed his business when the Russians occupied our part of -- of the city, because he was afraid that they might send him to Siberia, God forbid. So people who owned businesses closed them most of the -- most of the time they were closed.

Q: So how did he make any money?

A: Well, he sat home and he was sewing himself.

Q: And doing what with the clothes?

A: He became a talor -- a tailor again, yes.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand deg August 15, 1998

Q: Was he a Zionist?

A: Huh?

Q: Was he a Zionist?

A: No. He was very much against Zionism. You know, I had terrible discussions with my father. I was very much in favor of Israel, state of Israel forming, and my father did not. He said -- and I very often think of his words, he said, the Arab state will never let Israel exist. Israel doesn't stand a chance, he said to me, and I was very angry with him. I said, how can you say that? He says, that's the truth, why don't you face it? So now whenever something happens in Israel, I think of my father, yes.

Q: Whe -- when did you decide to get married?

A: Well, when Julian came back from Italy in 1938, end of 1938, beginning of 1939, we started thinking about it, and eventually we thought, well he is here, he doesn't -- he has no chance to leave the country and go somewhere else. We -- in the beginning we thought we will get married and then we will go to Italy or whe -- where his brother was. But his brother, when Mussolini made the pact with Hitler, his brother felt that it's time to leave. So the only country that gave him a visa was Australia and he went to s -- to Brisbane, which we visited him about 10 years ago, we were there. Yeah, he was a very -- he was -- he was a Zionist. His -- his brother http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand a August 15, 1998 was -- was a marvelous man. And so we decided to get married, and in the beginning when we got married, we lived in Lvov a few months.

Q: Tell me about your wedding.

A: It was by Rabbi Levin. He was a -- he was not an Orthodox rabbi, he was a -- what do you call him? Not Reformed.

Q: Liberal? Traditional?

A: Con -- yeah, yeah. It was at his home. And I had -- my father made me a suit, a blue suit, and I had a white hat with a veil. And we had the reception at his parents" home, which was a small apartment, just family. It was nice, it was really very nice.

Q: Was it influenced by the fact that the war had started?

A: Yes, absolutely, absolutely, otherwise it would have been probably much larger, much bigger wedding, but -- and we lived in a small apartment in -- in Lvov, when one day my father decided that it's very dangerous in Lvov to be there and we have to come to Przemysl. And he sent a -- a truck with some soldiers, I don't know, he paid them probably, I don't know where he found them. And they came to get us, and we went to PrzemySl. And in Przemysl we lived with them until they formed a ghetto, then we moved to their apartment in the ghetto, and --

Q: Did you notice any Jews being rounded up at any time? I'm talking about before they got out, was f-- http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand 8 August 15, 1998

A: In Przemysl?

Q: Yes.

A: Not really. Not. They didn't make any aktions, as they called it, until they formed a ghetto, because they had them all together. You see, it was much easier for them.

Q: Did you have any restrictions when you were seeing your husband? Privacy restrictions because conditions had been changed -- before you got married, before you got married.

A: Restrictions in what?

Q: Well, because it was wartime, you didn't get married til 1940.

A: Yeah. Not really --

Q: Did that limit your relationship with him?

A: No, my mother -- my mother limited my relationship with him. She was -- she -- she was wonderful with him, she loved him dearly. And no, no, I didn't have any special restrictions. But we were brought up this way, that we didn't have any relationships unless we were married, contrary what is now.

Q: But you would say that at that time you wanted to get married, and so you were optimistic about what the world situation --

A: Yes.

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

Q: You didn't sense danger at that time?

A: We didn't sense, no, we didn't s -- we didn't feel that danger coming.

Q: Even in May 1940.

A: Even in May 1940, because we were -- it was relatively peaceful. There were not all those murders, all those concen -- we didn't hear about concentration camps until later.

Q: So, the German reoccupied the city in June of "41.

A: Yes.

Q: And you said this -- then your father was a member of the Judenrat.

A: Oh yes.

Q: Did he talk about it -- is it a Dr. Duldig? Did he talk about the head of the Judenrat?

A: Oh yes.

Q: Ig-Ignatz Duldig.

A: Oh -- oh yes, he talked about it. And they used to go to meetings and things like that, and --

Q: You had talked about trying to raise money. What else did your father tell you about the Judenrat?

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand * August 15, 1998

A: Well, they came with all kinds of requirements to the Judenrat. And the Judenrat has to comply.

Q: Was your father very upset?

A: Very upset, very often very upset, yes. But ne --

Q: How did he handle it?

A: He couldn't do it -- think about it. How do you handle it? You appease the -- the enemy. That's the only way you could handle it. Until that night when they took the 1,000 boys from the ghetto, but there's another story.

Q: And did you have to hand over any of your valuables, or did your parents have to?

A: Well, I remember -- I remember that we had a beautiful dining room set still. And I remember a German woman came with a soldier looking at that apartment. And she said to him, I want that table. There was a very beautiful tablecloth on the table, so my mother tried to take it off and she said no, the tablecloth goes with the table.

And they took it. In other words, they could come in your house, your apartment and whatever they -- they liked, they could take.

Q: What was your reaction to that?

A: I don't really remember my reaction. I was shocked probably, but -- I couldn't understand it how somebody -- my -- my mother was much, much broadminded http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand * August 15, 1998 about it. She says, as long they take the table, it's all right, as long it doesn't concern the people. Which was smart. I wasn't so smart at that time. But, in other words, they could do, those wives of the officers, or SS or whatever, could come to you and take whatever they wanted.

Q: Did you have to give up anything personal to you?

A: My personal things? Well, they -- they did take jewelry yes, yes, I remember that.

But I --I have very vague impressions about that. Not until we came to the ghetto.

Q: What about the other anti-Jewish measures that the Germans put into effect, did you have to wear an armband with the Jewish star?

A: Oh yes, oh yes, yes, we wore an armband with the Jewish star.

Q: How did you feel about that?

A: You know, it's funny, nothing. Nothing, because we all wore it. This didn't matter at all to us. And then when we were in the ghetto, of course, it was very important that you do -- do some work, that you do something that might justify your existence, so to speak.

Q: What did the armband look like?

A: It was a white armband about that wide, and it had a--a blue St-Star of David on it.

Q: And you always wore it?

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand * August 15, 1998

A: When you go out of the ghetto, yes, always.

Q: And even before the ghetto you --

A: Even before the ghetto, yes.

Q: And did you register at all, as a Jew?

A: Yes, yes. Well, the Judenrat did that.

Q: Did you have special papers and special identity cards before the ghetto?

A: That I don't remember. I am trying to remember whether I had, I-- must have been some special identification card, but I don't remember it.

Q: When all -- when conditions started changing and these measures came in, and --

A: Yes.

Q: -- did you talk to this -- talk about this among your friends, other young women your age, contemporaries?

A: You know, I keep thinking about -- are you talking about ghetto years?

Q: No, before.

A: Before that?

Q: When things started to tighten up, and -- and restrictions came.

A: The only person I talked about it to was my mother. I don't remember talking to any girlfriends. I don't remember any girlfriend -- Jewish girlfriends. Yes, I had one girlfriend who visited me in the ghetto. I don't know what happened to her.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand 8 August 15, 1998

Q: Okay, now it's 1942, and --

A: That's a bad year.

Q: Yes. In June things started to get bad, a thousand --

A: Very.

Q: -- a thousand men were sent to Janowska camp from Tremisz(ph).

A: Yeah.

Q: Were you -- did you know about that?

A: Yes, we knew about it.

Q: What did you hear and how did you react?

A: From -- from my father, from the Judenrat, of course. He was very depressed at that time. He knew that we are losing it, and there was not a thing we could do about it. At the time when -- are you talking about the ghetto years?

Q: Yeah, immediately before, yeah.

A: Immediately before. Immediately before, we -- we received an announcement that we all have to move to this part of town.

Q: This is July, 1942.

A: Right. And -- and we had to find a place to live there, which we did for -- my father found an apartment for us.

Q: You we -- you and your husband were living with your parents?

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand * August 15, 1998

A: Yes, yes, with my parents, yes.

Q: Was that always the case once you were married?

A: No. No, in the beginning when we lived in Lvov, we had a little apartment. When we moved to Przemysl we lived with them. And then, when we moved to the ghetto, we decided to get his parents from Lvov. So my father managed to send somebody and they brought them to Przemysl and we found them a little apartment on the same floor where we lived.

Q: Where was your apartment in the ghetto, on what street?

A: I don't remember the name of the street. It's funny. It was a part of city that I never went to. I know you had to cross a -- a bridge over the -- the train station, was a bridge you ca -- you had to cross the bridge and it was -- it was a -- a lower standard part of the city. And they built a f--a fence there.

Q: Was this a wooden -- a wooden fence?

A: No, it was a--

Q: Brick?

A: -- brick. Brick fence. And they moved the Judenrat there, of course, and we moved there.

Q: Let's talk about your -- your living conditions in your apartment. How large was the apartment?

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand i August 15, 1998

A: The apartment in the ghetto? It was two rooms and a kitchen.

Q: For the four of you.

A: For the four of us, that's right.

Q: What did you bring with you yourself when you went into the ghetto?

A: Well, we had beds. We had a bedroom set, my parents" bedroom set, and there was one set for us. Not set, really, beds.

Q: H-How did you bring that? On a truck?

A: I--I don't remember. Must have been a truck, but a -- must -- probably my father arranged it. I don't remember this. And then when his parents came, they had a one bedroom apartment on the same floor.

Q: What did you bring with you personally?

A: Very little, really. I don't even remember. I don't remember being troubled by changing my clothes or -- or -- or not having enough clothing. I must have had enough, I always had enough. But -- but I remember very little about it, really.

Q: Did you bring anything specially personal with you, that meant -- that had sentimental value?

A: No. I don't remember that either. The only thing -- I know that my husband, who was always a very particular dresser, and I know that I was standing there, and I had an ironing board and an iron and I would iron his pants, because he wouldn't wear it http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand *deg August 15, 1998 otherwise. But I -- I really don't remember being involved in -- or worrying about what I'm going to wear. This was so immaterial at the time. It was not important at all. That's funny. And yet, he and I, both of us, worked outside of the ghetto. It is a very important part of my life. We worked in a place called -- do you know German?

Q: No, but that's all right.

A: Enklausungstella(ph). It was a place where they have specia -- they had special machines where they brought uniforms from the front, full of lice and other things and they put them through those machines to disinfect them, to clean them. We would march out every morning.

Q: We being who?

A: Julian and I. He was with a group of men, I was with the women. And we had the armbands and we were not allowed to walk where people walked, but we had to go where the cars and th -- the horses were going, in the middle of the street. And they would take us every morning out of the ghetto, to that place where we spend the whole day, and in the evening they would -- in the af -- late afternoon they would bring us back. The reason why this is important is because there was one German -- I cannot talk about it -- about him without crying -- whom I was so grateful to. The director of that camp, he was not a Nazi, he was a newspaperman from Berlin. He was lovely. He said to me -- he was always address me the German way, Frau ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998 Doktor, because in German language, the woman gets the title of her husband, if he is a doctor. So he would come to me and he would say, I am so ashamed, I am so embarrassed, but I know I am being watched. And according to their rules, if somebody was caught stealing something, what could you steal something there? A dirty pair of socks or a dirty pair of pants. He has to give them public beating. So one day he came to me and he said -- there was a 15 year old boy there working, and he was caught stealing the pair of socks, and he says, I am supposed to give him a public licking. Tell him to scream as loud as he can. I will not hurt him, but I have to pretend that I am doing it, I have been watched. I know I am being watched. So I did that. He didn't let me work with the -- with the uniforms. He says, you are not going to work there. You stay in the kitchen and peel potatoes. And to this day I cannot peel potatoes without turning my head away. When the SS would drop in sometimes, if they didn't have any theater or any recreation they thought that they will go, and all the women, young or old, had to undress as God has made them.

Totally naked. Stand in the row -- I have seen it, and if -- they would look them over, and if they didn't like a pair of breasts, they would hit with the whip. Anyway they didn't like the back, they would hit in the back. He would come running to the kitchen and say to me, you don't go there. I will hide you and you can take a shower whenever you feel like it. And somebody could have thought that maybe there was a

38 Interview with Lena Jurand August 15, 1998 special interest in him in me, and it wasn't. He was -- he was as much dedicated to my husband as he was to me. He said to me one day, my parents have a farm near Berlin, and I'm making some papers for you so you could go there and spend the rest of the war there working on that farm. Then somebody gave him out, that he's too good to the Jews. And one day they sent him out to the front, to the Russian front. And the first thing I did when I got out of hiding, I tried to find out what has happened to him. And I found a boy who was with him, and he told me that he was killed at the Russian front. I still remember his last name, Burba, b-u-r-b-a. He was a newspaperman. He was so nice.

Q: How old a man was he?

A: I would say 26 maybe.

Q: He was young?

A: Yeah.

Q: And what was his first name?

A: I don't remember his first name, just the last name. He was very nice. He wasn't nice only to me, he was nice to everybody. He really felt -- he was embarrassed. He was very nice. It shows you that even among them, you could find somebody who was nice. So we worked there, day after day after day until -- until they made another aktion, as they call it, they tried to get people. And I had a cousin, a young girl, who http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand *deg August 15, 1998 was supposed to go to the train. And my in-laws were supposed to go to the train.

My husband couldn't make himself take them, so I took them. I took them to the train. Of course, rumors were -- we knew where they are going. They had to [indecipherable]

Q: How did you know -- how did you know?

A: Rumors. Rumors started that there is a concentration camp, that they gas people.

But we all believed that maybe it was exaggeration. You know, nobody wants to believe that. So I took them to the train and it was started to rain. And my mother-in- law had beautiful, heavy hair. She didn't wear anything, and I had a s-- some scarf around my neck. So I took it off and put it on her. And she -- she -- she embraced me and she said, you tell -- tell my son that I said you will survive the war. I loved my mother-in-law. She was the sweetest woman. The nicest person. I never heard a word of criticism from her to any of her daughters-in-law. She was lovely. So, that was it. That must have been in the summer of deg42.

Q: Right, this is -- we're talking about July deg42.

A: Yes. Must have been maybe later. While we were -- funny how it happens in life.

While we were working in that Enklausungstella(ph), Polish woman -- women used to come there to buy some bargains from the Jewish women. We were not allowed to carry anything in our hands. So what we did is, I know I had all my -- my ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand * August 15, 1998 beautiful pure silk nightgowns, hand embroidered, which I didn't need. I used to put one on top of another on myself, and this way I could carry it with me. And that Polish woman, whose husband worked in that camp, because some Polish -- Polish people worked in the camp when they were mechanics or they did something with the machines. Her husband worked there, she would come there. And one day we were conducting a transaction, I was selling her my nightgowns, she was buying that. And mind you, she was a total stranger to me. And I was young. And she would say -- she said suddenly to me, my God, you are so young, and you are so pretty -- I was pretty at the time -- and I feel so sorry for you. If you want to hide, come to me. I was flabbergasted. I says, do you realize what you are saying? Do you know that if you are caught, they put you to death? She said, I don't care, I'm not afraid. She was the happy-go-lucky type. That was our luck. Well, from that day on, Julian tried to find out where they lived. And they lived on the other side of the city, quite a distance from us. Her husband would come every evening to the ghetto -- is it working? -- to the ghetto wall, and Julian would make a package of our things, and through the Jewish policeman give it to him, and he would take that home. So, we thought, in case we would have to go and hide, we will have some things there. And that was going on for some while, until November "42, when the -- when the rumors started to circulate that there will be a new aktion and they will take people. That Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998 day Julian said, this time we are not going to give anything, we are going out. My father wasn't home, because if my father had been home, he would never let me go.

So my mother said to me, you go better before your father come home -- comes home. We left, it was getting darker, and you know, we had a curfew hour. So we had to be -- go out before the curfew. And as we were going down the stairs to go out -- there was no light in the stairway at the time, it was dark -- I heard my father's footsteps, he was coming up. And this stands with me, all those years, I still dream of that. And th -- my first impulse was to go to him, but Julian was behind me and he stopped me. And I let my father pass me, and I didn't say goodbye to him. That was the -- the worst thing, I think, in my life. But before we go to that, I-- I have to step back, before I tell you a -- [break]

Q: This is a continuation of a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum volunteer collent -- collection interview with Lena Jurand. This is tape number two, side A.

A: Well, there was one requirement of the SS. One day they came to the Judenrat, and they required in a very specific way, they wanted the Judenrat members to do their dirty work. They needed 1,000 boys, age 12 to 16 being taken from homes.

And that was the only time I saw my father crying. I opened the door, he was standing there crying, and I said, what happened? And he was telling me, and I said ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand deg August 15, 1998 to him, if they want 1,000 boys, you have to give them -- them 1,000 boys. And he said to me, how can you say that, you are my daughter, how can -- how can I go to one mother saying, you son will go, and the other mother, your son will stay? Am I God? I said, you have to do it, because if you don't do it, you know what will happen. The Nazis will take this -- this 1,000 boys, but they will shoot another 1,000 on the way. And he said, you are right. And they let them have 1,000 boys during that particular night. Nobody slept, of course. Of course the boys were never seen again. And I went out in the morning, about six o'clock in the morning, outside.

There was not a living soul, nothing. Total stillness. There was not a bird, not a wind, not a breeze, nothing. I went into a rage, and I looked up and I said God damn you, wherever you are. This is not the God I want. I don't want any part of you. And what's more, I don't want you to save me. That was one thing. As you see, it didn't happen. The other thing was, one day they let me know that the SS came to the Judenrat and took all the members of the Judenrat to the train. And I went wild.

So I ran to the Judenrat. We didn't live far away, and I had some friends there, and they said to me, don't go in. He is a wild animal. He just shot some people, he will shoot you. And I couldn't care less. I went in. I didn't knock at the door, I just opened the door, and I can still see him as is it was yesterday. He was the most beautiful young man I have ever seen. Very tall, very blonde, very Nordic looking, Interview with Lena Jurand * August 15, 1998

with blue eyes like two blue ice cubes. And he was leaning on the desk holding in one hand, in the right hand, he had a -- a gun that was obviously shot a short time ago, in the other a whip. I opened the door, he didn't even look at me. And I didn't -- didn't say anything, I was just standing there. He said to me, what do you want? In German. So I answered in German. I said, I came to inquire about my father. And I tell him he is a member of the Judenrat and I hear that he was taken. He still didn't look at me. He wasn't interested at all in what I was saying. What puzzled him was that I used such a good German language. That impressed him. He said to me, where did you learn German so well? I said, well German was my best foreign language, I had it eight years in high school. And I -- I really risk a lot, because I was getting fresh, and I said, would you like me to recite you some Goethe? Then he looked at me and he said, what about your father? I said, well, I hear he is on the train going to Auschwitz. He called two germ -- two Jewish policemen and he said, where is that man? So they told him he is on the train and they are going to Auschwitz. He said to me, you go home and wait. I promise you I will get your father. I didn't have any other -- I had to go. I came home, and all my neighbors were there and my mother.

And when I told them, they said, don't believe it. Nobody has ever come out of the train going to Auschwitz. And we waited and waited and was getting dark outside.

About 10 o'clock at night we heard some footsteps. Two Jewish policemen brought Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

my father home. Later I was told that they stopped the train on the way and they started calling his name Salzburg. My father was so fatumult that he didn't even react to that. But somebody sitting next to him said to him, isn't that your name? He said yes. So he got up and went out of the train and those two Jewish policemen brought him home. He was unconscious for about two days. He didn't know what was going on. After he got better and he realized that he is home, he took my hand, and he said thank you. So I gave him a --I gave him a-about a year of miserable life, but life. I still to this day don't understand what made this German keep his word. It was puzzling to me. But he did. They stopped the train, actually. Nobody believed it.

Those are the two things I wanted to tell you about our ghetto experience. Now, going back to coming out of the ghetto --

Q: Be-Be -- before we do that, let's talk a little bit about --

A: Oh.

Q: -- life in the ghetto.

A: Uh-huh.

Q: You were there for three months, from July to November?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. What about food, did people have enough food at that time?

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand *8 August 15, 1998

A: Well, we had enough food, because first of all my father was a member of the Judenrat, and second we had money to buy the food. But there was a lot of poverty.

There were -- they were -- you saw in the ghetto on the streets, people lying. Oh yes.

Like you see some, there's pictures now. There was -- there was a lot of poverty.

Q: How large was the Judenrat, do you know?

A: The what?

Q: The Judenrat, how many people?

A: 12. 12 people.

Q: And you had said that you had worked there for a little bit?

A: Yeah, I worked -- you know, keeping sc -- ma -- scores -- names of people and things like that. Nothing that's very important, just whenever they needed me, I did some work, yes.

Q: Was this in the ghetto or before the ghetto?

A: In the ghetto, in the ghetto.

Q: Okay. What did other people think of the Judenrat?

A: Well, what do they think? They probably resented it up to a certain extent, because whenever the Germans needed something, they went to the Judenrat, and it was a Vicious circle, and the Judenrat had to accommodate them, to keep peace.

They thought they would; of course, they didn't. And also, everybody was resentful http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand *deg August 15, 1998 to a certain extent because they thought that the Judenrat is safe, and it wasn't. It was just delaying it a little bit.

Q: Did you know other people on the Judenrat?

A: Oh yes, there was -- there was -- we had a neighbor who was a -- a doctor and her son was a lawyer, he was a member of that Judenrat.

Q: And what were their -- what was that name?

A: Blech, b-I-e-c-h. They were good people, and I don't think they survived.

Q: The first name?

A: I don't remember. I don't remember.

Q: You said that your father was so upset when a thousand young boys --

A: Yes --

Q: -- had to be chosen.

A: --very much.

Q: Was he involved in the actual choosing, in the [indecipherable]

A: No, no, they were not. A -- anaj -- where -- I mean, my father was not, because he was too old probably for that. For that mission they usually send some Jewish policemen with -- with somebody younger. Well, the Jewish policemen had to do their job. They thought that it -- probably that they will save their life, which they didn't, cause a vicious circle.

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

Q: Ho-how did you know that you were supposed to work in this uniform factory?

How did you hear about that?

A: I don't remember that, that's a good question. I think it must have been through the Judenrat, probably.

Q: Did they post signs?

A: Yes, they did, they did, and I -- I know that th -- Julian worked as a physician there, in that camp, and I worked in the kitchen. And as I said, he was very nice. He really was nice. So they sent him away.

Q: Now this is the German --

A: He was so nice that --

Q: -- newspaperman.

A: --as poor as -- as preoccupied as we were, when we heard that he has to leave and go to the front, we all gave money and bought him a golden ring. Can you imagine?

I remember that. Because he was nice to everybody.

Q: Wher-Where did they get the golden ring from?

A: Somewhere in the ghetto we bought it. I don't -- I don't remember the details, I only know that we gave enough money to buy a ring.

Q: What did you talk about? When you would come back from work, exhausted I'm sure, in the ghetto -- http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand %8 August 15, 1998

A: Yes?

Q: -- would you sit and talk to your parents or other people that you knew about what was happening, and --

A: We talked very little. We talked very little because there was nothing good to talk about. I remember coming back from work. We were -- we were six people in a row working. And I happened to be at the end of the row. And a Italian officer saw me and started walking alongside with me. And at that time I knew a little Italian, very little, from Julian. And he said something to me and I answered and he -- he took out the package of cigarettes and wanted to treat me to some cigarettes and I says, I don't smoke, but may I take it for my husband? And he gave it to me. So I remember that, but I only remember that he was very nice to us, and very apologetic.

And that really, that man who was in charge, he felt -- he felt guilty, although he di -- he himself didn't do anything, but he felt guilty for his fellow -- for -- for other people. And that's -- that's so -- is amazing that I remember still his last name.

Q: Y-You told that very moving story about the little boy that he was supposed to beat, an-and --

A: Beat.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand deg August 15, 1998

Q: -- what did you say to this young man when you went to tell him?

A: I said that to him, I said, scream as loudly as you can. He will make believe that he's beat -- giving you a beating, but he will not hurt you.

Q: And did the boy believe you?

A: Yes. Yes, he did. He did. Because I was older, and I was working in the kitchen.

He did. And I said to him, don't steal any more, because you -- you -- it's not worth it.

Q: Di-Di -- were people forced to watch that beating?

A: Na -- I don't remember that. No, I don't think so. I don't think so. Maybe some watched it because -- out of curiosity, but I don't think they were forced to watch it.

Q: Did you talk to the other women in your group as you were marching to the camp?

A: Very little. Very little. Because, first of all, we didn't want to attract attention, probably. You tried to be as impersonal as you possibly can. It's funny, there were some women with me in the kitchen working too, and I cannot remember them.

Q: What did you do in the kitchen?

A: Peeled potatoes all day.

Q: Only?

A: Absolutely. Because they were cooking you know, for the -- for the workers.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand *deg August 15, 1998

Q: Did they give you any food?

A: Yes, yes, they gave us at lunch time -- noontime, some meal, so they were -- we were cooking potatoes.

Q: What did you eat for breakfast and dinner in the ghetto?

A: What did I what?

Q: What did you eat for breakfast and dinner in the ghetto?

A: I don't remember. I don't remember. Probably the -- I don't think we ate any meat. I don't remember having meat.

Q: How was your health at that time?

A: You know, this is the most amazing thing. When we were 22 months in hiding, when we went out of the ghetto, we bribed -- Julian bribed a Jewish policeman, who probably bribed the other one, and they let us out. They closed their eyes. Julian went with him, with her husband, who led the way, and I was behind, walking. And as we had to pass the Gestapo building on the way there. There was no other way to go. And there was a soldier standing, watching. At a certain moment, when Julian was with him, he said, halt. Stopped them. So Julian said -- first he thought he is going to ask for his papers, so he says, I have [speaks foreign language here] which means, I have a--I am allowed to walk after curfew. He had that document.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand * August 15, 1998 He says [speaks foreign language], it's not important. Julian had a-- what do you call it? Not lantern.

Q: Flashlight?

A: Flashlight in his pocket and it just happened that the flashlight was on and the light was seeking through. So he -- that's why he stopped him. And he thought he -- he is going to ask him for papers, and things like that. That was one thing. Then we came there. Now, we came to hide, we were hidden for 22 months, from November to August "44. It was a kitchen, you entered, there was a little hall, and a pantry without the window. That pantry was very important. And then you entered the kitchen and there was one room behind the kitchen. There was no separate entrance to the room, it had to be through the kitchen. They lived all their lives, especially in the winter, in the kitchen, because there was the stove and it was warm. She entertained German soldiers in that kitchen. We were in the room. We could not -- can you imagine in 22 months you cannot sneeze, you cannot cough, you cannot say a lot of word, and you cannot make a -- a loud step, and you cannot be sick. We lived like that in that room for 22 months. There was no toilet in that apartment. In other words, if we wanted to use the facilities, you had to go a half a flight stairs down, and there was, probably for -- for many people, there was the facility. People have, when I talk to my granddaughter's class about it, one boy got up and said, how did http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand ~ August 15, 1998 you do without a toilet? I said, that's a good question. There was a fire in th -- in the stove, constantly, and that fire helped. Whatever you had to burn, you burned. And the rest you pour out down the drain. So he was satisfied when I explained to him. I said, believe me, it wasn't easy. Julian developed such a magnificent sense of hearing that he knew what was going on in the kitchen before I knew it. From certain -- he knew which -- which place the floor was squeaking. One time an electrical man came to check the electricity. We didn't know he is coming. And of course he had to come to the room. So that was a -- there was a mirror with a--a piece of furniture with a mirror standing in the corner, but cutting off that corner, so one could hide behind it. Well Julian s -- only heard the words, electricity, and he pointed to me to go behind that thing and he went under the bed. And the room had to look always unoccupied, always. He came in with her, and I heard her say [sighs].

And he looked at the ri-- lamps or something, checked. And when he left, she came in and she says, good work guys. The first 10 months, because we accumulate a lot of things, of clothing in her house, she would sell it for us, and we would give her the money for the food. Well, after 10 months, my things have run out, and I told her, we don't have any money any more. So she was -- she was very good about it.

When he didn't see, she would open the door and quickly push in a-- a--a-- some soup, let's say, or some bread. We ate very little, but whatever it was. There was a Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

window in that room that was overlooking a field, and a young girl would come every day with her cow to let the cow roam around. And I wouldn't stand at the window because I was afraid somebody might spot me. So I would kneel at the window and look at her. And I would say to Julian, what I wouldn't give to be this cow. I mean, people don't know what it means. 22 months. She worked for a German place. She spoke German. She didn't know how to read it, but she spoke German, for some reason she did. And once in awhile she would invite those German soldiers over for a party. So I help her cook and bake. And then we would hide in that pantry. And she would give them enough to -- drinks to make them half drunk, and they would lie down on her bed and sleep. And when they were asleep, we would come in, go right near. I looked at them when they were asleep, and go to other room. When finally the war was almost over, there was a terrible fighting between the German and the Russian armies. Terrible fighting. The entire household went down to the basement, except us. So we were sitting in the pantry, and Julian kept his hands over my ears so I wouldn't hear that shooting. When suddenly the shooting stopped, and I said to Julian, am I crazy, or did I hear a Russian words there? At the moment when I said that, she opened the door and she said, you are free. The Russians are here, you can go out. There was no joy in me. Absolutely nothing. So I said -- my reaction was, now I am going to sleep. And I went to sleep http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998 without fear, once. At least once without fear, and I slept 24 hours. Julian went out right away. I couldn't make myself go out for about a week. I was afraid to face the world. So finally we went out, one Sunday afternoon. Beautiful, sunny afternoon.

My town, where I was born, where I went to school, I didn't know a living soul.

And as we were walking, I said to Julian, where are we going? He says, I don't know, let's just walk. And as we were walking a man approached us. And he saw me, and he stood there and said, I don't believe it. Aren't you Isadore Salzburg's daughter? I said yes. Was a lawyer, Jewish lawyer. Said to us, where are you going?

I said, I don't know, we don't have a place. He says, come with me, I just opened an apartment, it belonged to a Nazi. So we went with him. There were no beds, but it didn't matter. I slept on the desk, Julian slept on the floor. And this was our first apartment. And from that day on, I was going out every day, looking for Jews that came out from hiding. And our apartment was full of people in a very short time.

You were -- you wouldn't believe, we would spend entire evenings telling s -- each other stories. Of course, I didn't have a penny to mours -- to our soul. So I-- one day I saw a woman coming out of hiding, and I could recognize them coming out of hiding a mile away, there was something about the -- the way they were walking, like we did. And I--I saw that woman coming out of hiding, and she was a wife of a lawyer, her husband died. And she came out of hiding, so I said, come with me. We

55 Interview with Lena Jurand August 15, 1998 had a -- a-an apartment full of people. And she -- the first thing she said to me, she took out some money, pocket money -- paper money from her pocket and said, do you need any money? It was so unimportant. Here, have some. And that was the first money we got. Then Julian joined the army, Polish army as a -- as a physician.

Q: Be-Before we go on to that, I wanted to ask you a few more questions.

A: Sure.

Q: What was the name of the family of the woman that you -- that hid you?

A: Maria Dambrowska(ph). Her grandson is still alive in Przemysl and I sent him money. Yeah. And my son graduated medical school, he decided to go to Poland for a visit. He understands Polish, he speaks a little Polish. He went to Przemysl, she was still alive. Of course, I gave him money for her. And I was very curious what she will say. When he came back I said, what did she say when she saw you? He says, Mother, you wouldn't believe it. She put her arms around me and started to cry. You know, that after we moved out to that apartment that the man gave us, she couldn't stand it. She moved out from her place and moved to the same house, to the same floor, opposite our apartment. So she lived there with us again.

Q: How did you know when you were in the ghetto that you could trust her when she made the offer?

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand deg August 15, 1998

A: Of course I didn't know, but did -- did we have any choice? Was either that or being on the train. Sooner or later. I mean, is -- it was inevitable that we will end on the train.

Q: How did you know that?

A: Because so many people went. I mean, we couldn't be an exception. Maybe not sooner, maybe a little later. I finally -- you know I found out that my father was taken.

Q: Tell me about it.

A: Oh, I--I didn't tell you that. As we were -- as we were in hiding, one evening somebody came to the kitchen. We didn't know who it was, we just heard the voice.

And we were -- from what he said we could understand that he was a Jewish man who happened to know her, he knew her. And you would always try to find a way, somebody who -- who could help you. So he thought he would go out of the ghetto and go to her place, maybe she can take him. He didn't know she had us. I felt very guilty about that later. And as he was sitting in the kitchen and talking to her, she asked him what happened to Mr. Salzburg? And he says, oh, he was -- he and his wife were taken on the train to Auschwitz. And when Julian heard that he put both hands on my ears so I wouldn't hear it, but I heard it. So later-- my mother went to Auschwitz. After the war, I met a boy who was with my father on the train, who ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998 survived Auschwitz, and he told me that on the way to Auschwitz the SS very often was making some -- they tried to find people who had money, and people usually had some money with them. So my father, who was very -- a person that -- that caught the eye, he asks him whether he has any money. He said no. He started sh -- looking through his pockets and he found some money. So he told him to go straight ahead and he shot him in the head. At least he was saved Auschwitz. Yeah. But she did accomplish quite a lot I must say, this woman. Wasn't easy to have two people hidden in a small apartment.

Q: Why do you think she did it?

A: She didn't do it for money, because after the war, when Julian joined the army, and the first money I got, I went to her, and I gave it to -- I wanted to give it to her, she wouldn't take it. I think she really felt something for us. I don't know why, I don't know -- I don't know the reason, really, but she felt something. You know, to accomplish -- to have 22 months with people where you can -- and I told her, when she first told me -- suggested this to me, I said, do you know what will happen to you when you are caught? Oh, I am not afraid. She was the happy go lucky type.

Q: How old a woman was she?

A: She was older than I was. She was in her, maybe close to 40 at the time, maybe 35.

Interview with Lena Jurand *S August 15, 1998

Q: And what was your relation to her husband?

A: Actually, it wasn't her husband. You know, the funny thing is that we didn't know it. She was carrying his name and we thought they were married. Then we found out that she'd left her husband and she -- he was just living with her. And th -- the dangerous thing was that when he -- he used to drink quite a lot. And when he drank he would threaten her with us. And that was dangerous. So we were very afraid sometimes about him. But she could control him somehow. And she was funny. I used to read German papers and tell her what's going on in the world so when she would go to work -- she worked for a German firm, she could tell them, and she was well informed. She was a character.

Q: What kind of work did she do?

A: Some -- not very important. Something in the -- in the office, maybe. But she spoke German, but she didn't know how to read it, and she didn't want to admit it.

Q: Now, when you were there for those 22 months, you said your health was good, you did not get sick, you or your husband?

A: Not once. Not once. And when Doris Schulman(ph) was wondering about it, she says, don't you get a-- didn't you get a cold, didn't you have to sneeze? I said I couldn't afford to sneeze. Because well, to the kitchen, her neighbors used to come to the kitchen and they couldn't hear us. They -- they -- actually the first rule of being http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand >>deg August 15, 1998 hidden by somebody in this situation was that absolutely nobody must know it, because was enough if one person would know, and the word spreads. About two weeks before we were liberated, I had a friend in school who came from a very Orthodox Jewish family and the 15 people of that family were hidden somewhere.

And two weeks before the war ended somebody gave them out and they were all shot. So this was terribly important that nobody, absolutely nobody would know.

Once it happened that I was wearing -- I was wearing a housecoat, and she said to me, come in, and I was standing, you know, at the door of the room, between the room and the kitchen, talking to her, when her neighbor didn't knock at the door, just opened the door, came in and saw me. And my first impulse was to hide, you know, but she didn't lose her nerve. She said -- she immediately had a story. Tho -- they were -- those are Polish people and they were in black market, black marketing and the police stopped them and they came here to hide for a few hours. And as soon she got her out of the apartment, that woman. And then she managed to get her back -- she was very clever -- and she said, look through the window, there they are, you see? They left now. They felt more secure so they -- they went away. Here they are around the corner. And she made it so that the woman never suspected. [break]

Q: This is a continuation of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum volunteer collection interview with Lena Jurand. This is tape number two, side B,

60 Interview with Lena Jurand August 15, 1998 and we were just talking about the conditions when you were in hiding for 22 months. While you were in hiding, were you aware of what was happening in the ghetto? You sa -- you had mentioned about the one man coming and you heard about

A: Yes.

Q: -- your father. Did you hear about other things that were going on?

A: He sometimes went to the ghetto door -- gate and got some news, als --

Q: Who i -- who is he?

A: He is the -- the -- her supposed husband.

Q: And his name?

A: Stanislaw, I believe. And he once, twice or three times brought a letter from my mother. She came to the ghetto gate and probably handed him the letter. And one time he brought me a -- a ball of yarn, and I was very surprised to see it. I was thinking what -- what is -- why did my mother send me a ball of yarn? Then Julian started to rewind the yarn, there was a ring inside. But -- well, I knew that the conditions are getting worse. They -- they -- he told me and he heard it in -- and you hear it from other people talking, Polish people who are talking about the conditions.

It was expected. As the -- as the war was going to the inevitable end, it was expected that they won't -- won't leave the Jews alone.

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand *" August 15, 1998

Q: Why do you say that?

A: Well, they almost -- they almost -- all of the Jewish population of the ghetto almost went out to Auschwitz, unless you could hide, which was not very often.

Q: What did you know about Auschwitz at th -- at that time?

A: We knew that they have -- that they gas people. Oh, we knew that.

Q: Where did you get that information from?

A: Gossip. Letters probably. Maybe somebody escaped once in awhile. I -- I doubt that, but there were rumors. They were not really news, they were rumors. But you knew that they do something with the people. They had to do something with the people. You know, when the Russians came in, and finally I-- we went out and had this empty apartment, I met a Russian high ranked officer on the street, who said to -- the first thing he said to me is, where is your papa? Where is your daddy? He knew him from before. He said to me, he was a fine man. Strange, how this happens in life. I had -- I had two black women come here one day with a bible. And they ask me -- they wanted to convert me, and they ask me whether I believe in God, and I said no, I don't. How can I? But, on the other side, I am -- I am here. This is my fourth life, you know. First life was in PrzemysSl as a girl, was very happy. Very happy life, no problems. Then the second life was under the occupation, and hiding.

And the third life was after the war. And since my husband died, it's my fourth life.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand deg August 15, 1998 He didn't have a right to leave me alone. Oh, there's something I wanted to tell you, very important. When we went into hiding, we were planning it, I said to him, I won't go u-unless you meet my conditions. You have to have poison with you because I will not go in German -- to German's hands alive. He says, you can be sure I'll have it. All right. We went into hiding and there was one night when the German cars were passing by [makes tooting noise]. And a neighbor came in and said, Marie, you don't have to be nervous, they're just going from house to house looking for Jews. Would you believe that they went from one house to another, this is the only house they didn't enter? There is something written in the stars. At that time when I heard those cars and she said they are going looking for Jews, I said to Julian, I want the poison now. He says no. When they will enter this house, I'll give it to you. They never entered. That's na -- that's not the end of the story. After the war, as Julian didn't have anything else but one pair of pant and a shirt, and he was always a snappy dresser, he ask me to press his pants. I picked them up, and you know the European pants are finished with the belt of the same material. And as I picked them up, there was something stiff there. So I said to him, Julian, I cannot press it like that, there is something in that belt, you have to take it out. What do you think it was? Poison. And at that time I gave him such hell for telling me that he doesn't have it. I said, you promise, you don't keep your promise. I was angry at http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998 him. He said, if I would have shown it to you, you would have taken it then. This way, you waited. And he took it out from his pants. That's a story, huh? He was a very good man. When they t -- when he died they gave him a beautiful memorial at Saint Elizabeth's Hospital. He was clinical director there. And they really were very nice. Nice people. Everybody liked him.

Q: At the time of liberation you said you slept for 24 hours, it was the first time you could sleep.

A: Peacefully, without being afraid, because you know, it's a terrible thing when you are afraid at night.

Q: When you walked out, what was -- what was it like to walk out of that apartment onto the street --

A: It was a [indecipherable]

Q: -- for the very first time?

A: It was an incredible experience. Julian went out the first time, he had a cane and he walked with a cane. When I went with him, it's -- it's a strange experience when you don't own anything. Nothing. I had a skirt and a blouse. He had a pair of pants and a shirt. And we walked. And we didn't go -- we didn't know where we are going. We didn't know what -- where we are going to sleep at night. We didn't own Interview with Lena Jurand "4 August 15, 1998

anything. In a way it's -- it's exhilarating, you don't have to worry about anything.

You don't own anything.

Q: You hadn't really had any physical activity in those 22 months --

A: Nothing.

Q: -- you were confined to the apartment.

A: Absolutely.

Q: So what kind -- again, what kind of physical con-condition were you in?

A: Amazingly well. Amazingly well. When my friends ask me now how come I --I keep so well, I say I ha -- I had a good training.

Q: Did you have any health -- physical repercussions from the abortion in 1940?

A: No, healthy as a horse. Nothing. And --

Q: Did you -- while you were in hiding, did you still get your period?

A: Yes.

Q: How did you handle that?

A: The way you handle it in Europe all the way, a piece of paper.

Q: And you burned that in the stove?

A: Yeah, yeah. Amazing, amazing. You know then, when Julian started with the -- with the army, he made friends with -- with the cook and he used to bring home pieces of meat like that, and all day long I cooked, because I had so many people.

65 Interview with Lena Jurand August 15, 1998 Then one day, somebody knocked at my door -- I wonder whether she is still alive?

And I opened the door, and I couldn't figure it out, whether it was a wom -- a -- a girl or a man. The creature was very tall, very skinny. Shaven head, and she spoke German to me. She was Hungarian. She said she was with a group of women from Majdanek, Hungarian women, trying to go back to Budapest. They stopped in Przemysl. Each one of them went to a different house, knocking at the door, trying to get some food or something, some money. So I said to her, come in, come in. And she came in and I gave her dinner. And she says she was a daughter of a restaurateur in Budapest, she doesn't know whether her parents are alive. She survived Majdanek with a group of other girls, each one were -- and I told her to bring others here, I would have all fed them. And I tried to get together some money for her for the train trip to -- to Hungary. I don't know whether she survived that, but I was so --I was so touched by her looks. I mean, she wore a -- a -- kind of a uniform coat, and she was so skinny. Oh, the people that we had, it was very interesting after the war when I found those people coming out of hiding, and we all stayed together. Didn't matter where we slept. Then I found out that two my cousins survived the war near Warsaw as Polish women. And the first occasion I had, I send them money and asked them to come to me, and they came.

Q: How did you find out about them?

66 Interview with Lena Jurand August 15, 1998

A: I don't remember who told me. Somebody told me. I think it was the brother of one of the girls, who is still alive in Florida.

Q: How did you find out about your mother?

A: That man who came looking for -- for a place to stay, he said that they took Mr.

Salzburg and Mrs. Salzburg. So that's how I found my mother, otherwise I didn't know. But it was very interesting to see all those people and we would sit at the evening and each one could write a book. And it's amazing what people can go th -- go through and survive and still have -- so those cousins of mine came to me, and the first thing Julian took them to the army -- to the -- to the shoemaker to have them make some shoes for them. One of those cousins is still alive and she lives in Milburn, New Jersey. The other one passed away. So that was an experience.

Q: So now it's after liberation and -- and can you tell me what you did then?

A: Well, we -- we -- we tried to get some beds for the apartment, and the first thing my husband bought -- got for me, and I don't know where he got it, was a concert grand piano. And we put it in a room that was totally empty. The concert grand was in the center of the room, so all three of us, all the two girls that came to stay with us, all three of us played the piano, so we gave concerts.

Q: You decided to stay in the town?

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand deg" August 15, 1998

A: Well we stayed only temporary. Then my husband was shipped as a army physician to another town called Zheshev(ph), not far from Przemysl.

Q: So he went into the Polish army?

A: Oh, he went into the Polish army as a captain.

Q: Why?

A: Because this way he got food and everything, it was easy. And they looked for doctors there, so he went as a -- as a-- a captain [indecipherable]

Q: Was he -- was he a specific kind of doctor?

A: Yes, he was. It wasn't for the army. He was -- his specialty was venereal diseases.

L used to call him the king of the horrors. And we -- he went to Zheshev(ph) as a -- as a army physician, but he didn't want me to go there because it was a -- such a small town. So I and this cousin of mine, who lives in Milburn, New Jersey, we moved [phone ringing] -- we moved to Krakew. We stayed in Krakow only a few months. In the meantime my uncle, who was in New York, found out that Iam alive. I wrote to him, and he had some friends, one of whom was a director of a DP camp in Munich, Germany. The other was a director of a DP camp outside of Munich, Germany. And those t -- those two sent a Jeep with two young men dressed in UNRRA uniforms, who came from Munich, Germany to get us out of Poland. And they came in and they said, you have two hours to decide. We cannot http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand degdeg August 15, 1998 stay here, we are illegally here. Either you come with us, or you have to stay. It happened that my husband was at that time with us in Krakew -- with me in Krakow. And I said, let's go. So we took our dog and we boarded the Jeep and we went to cross the Polish-Czechoslovakian border.

Q: Let's talk about your dog. When did you get the dog?

A: We got the dog when he was in the army -- with the army in Przemysl. They went for some maneuvers to some residential prin -- a [indecipherable] or something. And the soldiers found that little puppy dog, they put him in a suitcase or whatever and brought him to me. And I was so geared tomas food -- towards food, that when I heard something moving in that -- in that little suitcase, I was sure it's a chicken. That was the dog. He was a puppy, and he became our baby. So I have a picture where I'm standing on the top of a house in Cieszyn, where the border between Poland ch -- Czechoslovakia was. And Julian -- w-we stayed with a Orthodox family, it was a Friday evening when we arrived there. We stayed overnight, they were very nice to us. And the next morning the daughter of the household went to talk to the soldier, because we didn't have any papers. She talked to him and she probably convinced him, so he let her open the -- the -- the border, the thing, the -- and we went through.

Q: When was this?

Interview with Lena Jurand deg August 15, 1998

A: That was in 1944. Yes, in the summer 1944, very early. So --

Q: So how long did you stay in Tremisz(ph) after you were liberated?

A: After what? After the war?

Q: After you were liberated?

A: Liberated. Not long, a few months, that's all.

Q: What were your thoughts about leaving Poland, this is where you were born. Did you consider yourself Polish then?

A: [had no regrets. There was nothing in me. Look, we went through so much, that leaving was -- first of all, all my life I wanted to be in America, as I said before, as a child. My father kept it up. And my -- I had two -- two of my father's brothers and my mother's sister living in New York. So I -- I had no regrets of leaving. There was nothing in me at the time. And my only preoccupation was to cross those borders, because we were illegally.

Q: When you were in Tremisz(ph) after -- after you were liberated, did you see other people, besides when you talked about who you knew before?

A: The people that I found on the streets, yes, the ones who were hidden like a-- we were, yes. Oh, we talked all the time. All the time, absolutely.

Q: Who was in your group as you were leaving Poland? It was your husband and your cousin and you?

70 Interview with Lena Jurand August 15, 1998

A: Yeah.

Q: So it was the three of you?

A: Mm-hm.

Q: Your cousin's name?

A: Louise Koch(ph). She married. That's her m -- her husband was also a medical doctor, whom I knew when I was a girl.

Q: And her maiden name?

A: Zarvin(ph). That's a very difficult name, Zarvin(ph). She was -- she was -- they were -- this was -- her mother was the one who introduced Julian to me, and I told you, that was her mother. Well, we crossed the border, we went on that trip with the dog to Praga. We stayed in Praga one or two nights, I don't remember exactly. We didn't have a penny to our soul, we couldn't buy anything. They provided food for us, the two boys who came to get us. When we -- the same way we crossed the Czechoslovakian-German border, when we finally came to Munich, we were lucky because -- because of my uncle's friends, we didn't have to stay ina DP camp, we stayed with the UNRRA people, which was lovely. Beautiful house with a cook, with everything. It was my first contact with Americans. I used to go in a Jeep when she was touring the neighborhood, with her. Was very nice. And when -- as we were staying there, I took a job to teach some children music in that DP camp in Munich.

Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

And Julian works -- works as physician there. And it was very rewarding because I could give something to those children, I like that very much. Except they didn't speak my language, so I had to start with the Yiddish.

Q: What was it like for you to put your foot down in Germany? Did it mean anything to you?

A: It meant a lot. I hated every minute of it. 1-- I-- Julian insisted I should get a good piano teacher to continue my piano education. Well, I got a teacher from the conservatory in Munich who would come home to me, but I hated him, because every time I would say something about the war, he would say, we didn't know anything. And I said you mean to tell me you didn't know? All those golden teeth, you didn't know where they came from? All the jewelry? The work of art? I said to him, you know, if I would find one German who would say yes, I knew what was going on, but we couldn't do anything about it, I would have some respect for him. I hated -- it came to a point -- I found out through my cousin, the one who called here, that in a neighborhood hospital for -- from where we lived, was a family, a mother and daughter and son-in-law, all three very sick people, Jews, of course. So I said to her, let's go. We went to the hospital and I brought something with me and I introduced myself. And we became very, very friendly, but the son-in-law had leukemia. They were -- they were hidden in terrible conditions and he died there in Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

the hospital. And I would go every other day, I would take the train from Munich to Garmisch-Partenkirchen where the sanitorium was. And I would take my dog along, and I buy a ticket for my dog and he had a seat. You know what means to be angry? I was -- I had so much anger in me towards this ger -- German people. I couldn't help myself. I would take a chocolate with me on the train, and when would I do it otherwise? I saw those children, German children sitting across from me, looking at me, and they were looking at the chocolate bars that I had. And I would unpack a chocolate bar and put the whole chocolate bar into my dog's mouth. I had some satisfaction. Cruel, but satisfaction. After awhile, I said to my husband, I don't care why I live, I can't stay in Germany. It's killing me. Absolutely killing me. So he found out that there was a train of Italians who were brought to Germany by Hitler to work in Germany and they were going back to Italy. So he volunteered as a physician, I went as a nurse, and the dog we -- went as a dog. So we were t -- to Italy by train. And Julian had a very dear friend of his and his brother's. She was Dutch and she lived in Merano -- Merano. When we crossed the Italian border, this is where we went. And --

Q: Wh-Wh-When did you leave Germany and how long were you there?

A: A year. A year

Q: You were a year in Germany?

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

A: A year in Germany. And we went to Merano. And she t --

Q: When you were teaching -- when you were teaching these students --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- in Munich.

A: Yes.

Q: Were they German students or Jewish students?

A: Jewish students, all Jewish, from all kinds. From Hungary, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, from every country. This was a DP camp.

Q: Which camp was this?

A: Neue Freiman(ph) lager.

Q: And so you went into the camp itself?

A: Oh yes, every day. I didn't live there, but I went to the camp.

Q: Can you paint me a picture of what the camp looked like?

A: Well, there were little wooden houses. Now, Lucia, the one who called me now, she lived there, in camp. Not bad. They had enough food. I have somewhere a picture wa -- at the train station there. And I went every day because I taught the kids and Julian went because he had some patients there. It wasn't bad. I mean, it looks like a -- like a camp, but it was cleaner than most of the camps were, and the direc --

Q: What were people's state of mind then?

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

A: Where did they take money from?

Q: No, no, no, what was their state of mind?

A: Everybody was talking about their experiences. This was the -- the usual team of talk. We couldn't talk about anything else.

Q: The children that you taught were how old?

A: Yeah, they were mostly about six, seven, eight.

Q: How did they survive the war?

A: Maybe hidden. I don't know. I didn't talk to the parents. They were nice kids.

Maybe a little older. [indecipherable]

Q: Did they -- did they talk about their experience? The children?

A: No. Not to me. I taught piano. They were nice. So we left finally Germany, to my joy and we went to Italy. And it -- Italy, we didn't have money again, we tried to find a place to stay, so we found a room on the eighth floor without an elevator, and I had the dog who had to go out three times a day. It didn't matter. It didn't matter.

Julian graduated medical school in Genoa. This was his second language, Italy.

And he adored Italy. So, because he had an Italian diploma, he could practice medicine there. So we f-- we found a room in the old part of Genoa in the port of Genoa where he opened his office, so to speak. That's why I called him the king of the horrors, he -- we would go for a walk and from up every lantern came a greeting.

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand * August 15, 1998 And I volunteered as his helper because we couldn't afford sa -- to pay somebody.

So I would help him, but he wasn't pleased with me. You know, hi-his specialty was skin and venereal diseases. This goes together in Italy. So he asked me to volunte -- to stay by when he had a patient who had something that had to be burned on her skin. And I don't know whether you know what burning of skin smells like. I was standing next to him and I was getting paler and paler. And he gave one look at me and he said, get out. I am firing you, you are not a good helper. So we stayed in Italy for five years. I learned Italian. In the meantime, my uncle couldn't stand it, the one in New York. In 1947 he send me a ticket to come to New York for a visit. And I came on a Polish boat, because I couldn't speak English. I had a ball on that boat, it was lovely. I came here with a visa for three months, visitor's visa. I stayed with him in Long Island where he had his house and I must say his wife was beautiful to me, she was such a lovely woman. I have never met her before. I have seen him because he used to come to Poland for a visit, yes, but I never knew his wife. And she was very nice to me, very.

Q: What -- what were their names?

A: Salzburg. Ben. Ben Salzburg. He had a business on 24" Street downtown, with -- you know when they made "The King and I," he -- he put all those rhinestones as stones on the costumes. This was his business. And he would take me down there to http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998 his workers and introduce me, he was very proud of me. And I stayed -- and he would hire -- he hired a young woman teacher from Columbia University, who came to my house every other day to give me a lesson in English. So after being three months there, I had a ball. I traveled all over New York, I was in love with new -- I still am in love with New York. And then I had an uncle, my mother's -- my --my mother's sister's husband, who was a photographer in Yonkers. So I went there and he went absolutely bananas with me. He -- where is that other picture that is so beautiful I have to show you? He was taking me -- my pictures constantly. And I would travel all over New York, and then my uncle got tired of living in Long Island because he had to commute downtown, it was a little hard on him. He found an apartment on 96" West, and I had a room overlooking Central Park, which was absolutely beautiful. I stayed the three months, after three months my visa was about to expire. He said, I'll send a lawyer, I have a friend lawyer who will go with you to the apart -- department of -- what is it?

Q: Im-Immigration?

A: Yes, immigration department. Maybe you can get a -- prolong -- prolong your visa. I come with that -- at that time I spoke a little English already. I came to the department and he starts, well she is sick and she has to have some medical attention, and I can see in the face of that man there that he doesn't believe a word ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand ia August 15, 1998 he is saying, and I looked like a picture of health. So I said, excuse me, let me talk.

And I said to the man, look, I am a survivor of the Holocaust. I finally came here and I have the time of my life, and I am totally in love with New York. I would like to stay another three months. I have a husband in Italy and I intend to go back.

Without another word, I got three more months in New York. Then I sent a telegram to Julian, ar-arriving Ciampino Rome, TWA, this and this time. He gets the [indecipherable] and he said he knows what is Ciampino Rome, but what the devil is TWA? He couldn't figure it out. He came to Rome to wait for me and I come out from the plane, I'm very proud of myself, I had the new hat, with the feather. And at that time they started to wear those shoes with the strap at the ankle, and I had those shoes. I was very proud of myself. I had the new suit. My other uncle, my -- my father's older brother was in fur business on 28" Street and he gave me a beautiful brown Persian coat, full length coat, beautiful. So I was very proud of myself and I come out of the train and Julian gives one look at me, and he says, you have to ta-- change those shoes, you look like an Italian whore. Those were very happy months for me, I really loved it. I wa -- it was a love affair wi -- between me and New York, a total love affair. I love New York. Very happy. And unfortunately his wife later died, my uncle's wife. And he remarried another European woman. He Interview with Lena Jurand (tm) August 15, 1998 is dead by now. He was very good to me, very good. Like a -- like a -- he suffered because of loss of his brother. So that's my history.

Q: So now you're back in Italy with your husband after being in New York, and what happened?

A: Icome back to Italy, yes, and we waited for our immigration visa. And I said to my husband, what will happen if they don't late -- let the dog go to America? I mean, this can happen. Very seriously he said, then I won't go. He went to the American embassy in Genoa. He got every shot given to the dog by the veterinarian there, we got a pile of papers, we paid $50 for his -- we -- we came by boat here. And we were assured the accommodations for the dogs are very good. But --

Q: What kind of a dog was it?

A: This one.

Q: No, what kind of a dog?

A: A shepherd. And he didn't like people, so he had to wear a muzzle. And we come on the boat and it was February, very cold. And the first thing Julian said, I want to see the accommodations for th -- my dog. So he went to the upper dock -- deck and he comes back and says, I am not going to put my dog there. It's bitterly cold. And we had a cabin for four people, so the dog had two bunks to sleep with.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

Q: This is a continuation of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum volunteer collection interview with Lena Jurand. This is tape number three, side A.

And you were talking about arriving in New York with your dog. What was your dog's name?

A: Macho(ph). He was --

Q: And then you -- and then you said your uncle was there and he didn't like dogs.

A: He didn't like -- he was afraid of dogs, so we stayed with him for about a few months in Long Island, watching the dog very carefully. And after that Julian found -- he had to make his internship here. He -- we went to a place called Neptune, New Jersey, where he worked in the hospital and where my son was born also, in Neptune, New Jersey. And we found there is, near Neptune, New Jersey is a small place where they don't let cars on Sunday. And we found an Italian woman who rented the place to us, a-- a room to us with the dog, and she didn't know we were Jewish. And then after awhile I told her and she says, it doesn't matter. You don't want to park your car -- you don't want to drive your car on Sunday here. It was very nice, very nice. And my son was born there, and then Julian wi -- got --

Q: What was it like for you to give birth to a child after you had to go through the difficult -- Interview with Lena Jurand .deg August 15, 1998

A: It was nothing -- it was absolutely nothing. Doris -- I drive her bananas when I say that I -- 1 went to the -- through the period of being pregnant with not one single illness. I didn't get -- besides a local anesthesia, I didn't get any anesthesia at all, except in that hospital where Julian was working, you know, and I gave birth to my son, the doctors were trying to be very nice to me and I was running -- I was about to give birth and I was running to the bathroom when a young doctor stopped me and s -- oh, how are you feeling Mrs. Jurand? And I says, if you s-stop me one more minute, I"! kill you. And my son was born --

Q: What about psychologically, giving birth after you had gone through this sad experience of the abortion?

A: Oh wa - once -- once I finally decided to have a baby, I guess I -- I was, in a way

Q: Had you hesitated about having a child?

A: Yes, yes.

Q: Why?

A: Because when I came out of hiding, I swore that I will never have a cha -- a child, because I saw what children went through. I was totally discouraged to have any family. And then my brother-in-law, Julian's brother, who never had children, started writing letters to me begging me, if I can, to have a child. So I decided

Interview with Lena Jurand * August 15, 1998

maybe I'll try it. Never regretted it, he was a wonderful boy. It was a good experience. But, we stayed there and then Julian found a job in Grantsville, which is between Annapolis and Baltimore. A state hospital. And we lived there for six years, in Grantsville. That was very happy years.

Q: What kind of practice was he having? Still venereal disease and dermatology?

A: No, no. No, he wa -- since he took this -- his state exam, he -- he went to -- to psychiatry. This was a psychiatric hospital where we lived.

Q: So he got additional training?

A: Oh yes, oh yes. And we stayed there for six years, very happy years. And from there we moved to Saint Elizabeth's, where we lived for 14 years, on the grounds of Saint Elizabeth's hospital and my son grew up there. Very good years too, very good years.

Q: This is in Washington, D.C.?

A: In Washington, D.C., yes. And then Julian, with time he became clinical director of Saint Elizabeth's hospital before he retired. And then we came to this house. And my son lives now in West Virginia. He is also in psychiatry. He goes in his father's footsteps. He just directed a play. You know, we started a play --a--a-- a theater in Annapolis. Yes, we bought an old garage, we bought some chairs from an old movie house, and Julian directed the first play, which was Pygmalion. It was Interview with Lena Jurand ia August 15, 1998

a smash hit. And I helped with everything. Make-up, costumes, everything that was to be helped.

Q: Can we talk a little bit now about some of your thoughts and your feelings about what you went through? Do you think you would be a different person today if you had not gone through what you did, what you experienced during the war?

A: Probably.

Q: In what way?

A: Lam sure I would have been different. First of all, maybe I would have been more religious, which I am not. Second, I think it gave me a certain insight into human s-suffering, otherwise I wouldn't have known it. I led a very sheltered life as a young girl, very sheltered. Good life. And I didn't know much about human suffering. I learned a lot. So I--I think --I think in this respect -- it's hard to say that the war was beneficial for me, it isn't beneficial to anybody. But I think that I gained more understanding for people. For people suffering, especially. I hope so.

Q: Are there any sounds or sights today that you hear or you see, or any smells that kind of bring back your experience during the war, either in get -- in the ghetto, or in hiding?

A: You mean sounds?

Q: Sounds, sights, smells. Anything that triggers what you went through.

Interview with Lena Jurand a August 15, 1998

A: Very easily, very easily, can trigger anything.

Q: Such as?

A: Or men you -- even when you listen to news and you hear -- or you see people suffering in so many countries, and you think, isn't there an end to it? 1-Iam specially very vulnerable if it comes to children suffering. And when I see, let's say in--in Yugoslavia, the children who are without food, without medication, I suffer.

I do. Because I thought maybe -- maybe we have filled out the -- the suffering of people. Maybe it's enough. But it isn't enough. It goes on and on and on. Why?

Even -- even this last [indecipherable] the bombs, that so many Americans have died, and local people. Any crazy person can -- you know, my father was a socialist and I used to discuss politics with him, and I -- I was very angry at him because he said he doesn't believe in forming the state of Israel. And I said, why? He says, because the Arabs will never, never leave them alone. Very often when I hear the news, I can see that he was right in many ways. But, look, we will always have wars.

There will be always crazy people who will try to do so much damage. We cannot help it. We are not responsible for everybody. I wish Julian would have lived longer. I still feel that he didn't have any right to leave me alone. He never left me alone in 57 years. If it wouldn't have been for him, I wouldn't have survived the war. I am sure of it. I didn't -- I was very sheltered all my life. I didn't know how to http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand * August 15, 1998 cope with it. And it was he who -- who staged it, who arranged it. He was responsible for everything, even after the war. And he left me in three days. It isn't right.

Q: When you were raising your son, did you -- and -- and let's say when he was at the age that you were when the war started, 22 when the war started. Did that bring back memories for you of the war? When he became the age that you were when the war started?

A: No, it didn't bring -- I did tell him about everything, oh yes. He knew about everything. But I--I didn't -- I didn't resent his getting older. Or I didn't connect this with the war in any way.

Q: Wer-Were you very protective of him when he was growing up?

A: To some extent yes, but don't forget that he grew up, his first years were in the country, which was very nice. We had the nice community there, rather international. We had a doctor from Vienna, and we had a doctor from Czechoslovakia. We had a nice group of people.

Q: Are you angry that you had to go through these very difficult times and others did not, sitting in this country, let's say.

A: You mean, to people who were here in this country?

Q: Right.

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand = August 15, 1998

A: What I resent about --

Q: That you had -- that you had to go -- are you angry that you had to go through that?

A: No.

Q: And others did not?

A: It's nobody's fault. It's not -- certainly not people's fault and I-- I am very happy that I came to this country. I love it here.

Q: What were your thoughts during the Eichmann trial in Israel?

A: I would have killed him. I was very happy that the Israelis got him. Serves him right. Too bad he didn't get more. And I looked at him as he was standing at that trial and I was thinking, you know, he looked like a little Jewish man. Didn't he? It's funny how it happens. But I was very glad they got him. Very. No pity.

Q: What are your thoughts about Germany today? The modern Germans.

A: I know. I wouldn't live there if you give me millions. I don't buy anything that's made in Germany. | used to tell my son, when you will be older, and you want to marry somebody, you can marry anybody of any religion you want. But if you ever marry a German, I will not know you. I resent them very greatly. Greatly. As a matter of fact I had a friend who was a wife of a rabbi. She was a very dear friend of mine, she worked with my husband in the hospital here. And her daughter, the http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand deg August 15, 1998 daughter of a rabbi went to Germany to study something and she met a German and she married him. And she lives in Germany. And every time I saw her, I was thinking, how can she? How can she have any relationship with those people? I cannot. I couldn't. I couldn't do it. As a matter of fact, about 12 years ago [indecipherable] we went to Vienna and Budapest. Julian had some meeting in Budapest. When we were going to Vienna, he said to me, you will love Vienna.

Oh, you will absol -- well, I hated it. Every time I was in Vienna and I had to listen to that German and I was thinking, this is the country that gave us Hitler, I couldn't stand it. | enjoyed Budapest very much, but not Vienna. A funny thing happened to us, we went to Jerusalem. There was a -- Julian was supposed to read the paper, there was a psychiatric meeting in Jerusalem, and he was reading a paper on -- on the war, something about the war. And we were sta -- we were -- we were staying at the Hilton in Jerusalem and we met another couple. Very handsome man, who had on a golden chain, a big letter chai. So you thought he was Jewish, yeah. He was a Presbyterians minister. And I still have a letter that his wife wrote to me. We became very friendly with this couple and we had one taxi, and the taxi driver drove us around. And I said to [indecipherable] how come you speak English so well? He says to me, I am from Brooklyn. And we were -- we s -- we went to a kibbutz where we spend the night. Was a nice kibbutz, well kept. And we went to Mosada(ph), of http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand a August 15, 1998 course. And then we -- we traveled to the ocean. Oh, we had a great time in Jerusalem, | loved it. She came running to me, his wife, on a Friday and said, Lena, quickly, quickly, you have to get ready. I want to see the Jews dancing at the wailing wall.

Q: What are your thoughts about Israel?

A: About what?

Q: Israel.

A: I liked it very much, but -- but I am not very optimistic about it -- Israel. You know, if they keep giving away -- Israel is small, if they keep wanting more and more from Israel, how long will they stay? I am --I am a little hesitant about Netanyahu, I don't know whether he is doing such a good job. But I love the atmosphere. I felt very comfortable there. That --

Q: Why did you feel comfortable?

A: Because it's such a relaxed atmosphere the Israelis have. With everything that's going around them, it's amazing that they can forget about it. Or maybe not forget, but try to forget. It's beautiful.

Q: Are you more comfortable around people who went through the war, than those who did not?

A: No- http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998

Q: More comfortable around other survivors?

A: You know, this is a very strange question that you ask me, and I'll tell you why.

There is a couple here, they're not Jewish, very nice couple who -- whom I met at some friend's house. And they probably thought -- they knew somebody else who was from Poland, also a survivor. So they thought that if they put me together with another survivor, I will feel mu-much more relaxed and so on. And they invited me to dinner one time. And I went to dinner and there was the other woman. And I didn't like her and she didn't like me, and I know it. So you never know. I -- I get beautifully along with Americans, I love Americans. I think -- I don't have to have people who -- who went through everything, as I did. Course, we enjoy it. As I was telling you that I went to see that family in the hospital with their gra -- son-in-law.

Well, the woman, the young woman was a public prosecutor in Poland. She was a lawyer by profession and she wanted to come to this country desperately. So, we went together for the -- you know, befo -- it took five years for the amer -- for the Americans immigration office to give us a visa to come here. That's why I get so upset when I see that they let so many people in without -- without really knowing anything about them. They x-rayed us, we went to Naples, we had to go through some questions and well, the x-rayed showed -- her x-rayed showed that she had a tiny spot on her lungs. Every doctor, including Julian gave her a statement that http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand deg August 15, 1998 there's absolutely nothing wrong with her lungs, they wouldn't let her in here. So she went to Israel. And she became a lawyer there in Haifa. We visited her when we were there. And a -- but why do I say that? In connection with what? I don't know. She passed away since then.

Q: Di -- did your --

A: She used to write to me.

Q: Did your husband do any studies, any research on survivors? You had said that he gave a paper on it -- on them.

A: Oh - oh yes, he wrote the paper, yes.

Q: Did -- did he do research on survivors?

A: Oh yes, oh yes.

Q: What kind of research?

A: He met with all kinds of people. I wasn't involved in that, he didn't involve me in that. But he did meet with the people who survived the sp -- from the psychiatric point of view, what -- what's -- where they had left anything. Well, of course, everybody who survived that war has to be affected in some way or other. I mean, you cannot be a normal person after surviving this. Like being hidden for 22 months without being able to say a word loud, or -- or sneeze or cough. How can you be normal? I mean normal, depending what you mean by normal. But that's very hard.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Lena Jurand *deg August 15, 1998 Very hard. I find that my -- my attitude to people is completely different. I mistrust people much more than I did when I was young. I didn't know anything about life.

Well, here I am, at the end of my rope.

Q: As you've gotten older, do you think more about this time in your life, the war time?

A: Do I think more? Yes.

Q: A-As you've gotten older.

A: Yes, yes, absolutely. Much more. I analyze much more. I would love to go once more to my town.

Q: Had you ever been back?

A: Never. Never. When I left Poland I swore I'll never come back.

Q: Why do you say now you would like to go back?

A: Huh?

Q: Why do you say now that you would like to go back?

A: Cause I'm getting older. I think a -- it would be nice to see the old place. It was such a nice town. We didn't have any crime. Nothing ever happened. Only once a woman, a Jewish woman divorced her husband and married somebody else. It was the greatest scandal the town has ever heard of. It was a very peaceful life. Nice life, nice life.

ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Lena Jurand * August 15, 1998

Q: Do you feel Polish in any way?

A: Absolutely. I read Polish books. I like the Pope because he is Polish. Julian left quite a few Polish books, I didn't realize when I was looking through the books. So I started reading them. I didn't read them since I was 18 years old. Quite an experience. At the beginning I thought I'll have a hard time, but it wasn't working that way. It's nice.

Q: What language do you think in every day?

A: What language do I think? Mostly English, mostly English. When I am with my Polish friends we speak Polish, but --

Q: These are Polish-Jewish friends, or --

A: Not Jewish. Non-Jewish.

Q: You have Polish friends here?

A: Yes, yes. As a matter of fact, I have some books which I want to give them. But I sp --I think mostly in English, yes. Became a habit.

Q: So, do you harbor any feelings, negative feelings towards the Polish people during the war?

A: I personally don't. I have no reason, I have been saved by a Polish woman. I don't think we would have survived the war without her. Whether she did it -- she ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand " August 15, 1998 didn't do it for money. Why she did it, I don't know, but I'm grateful to her. So that's why I take care of her grandson.

Q: Do you receive any reparation money? Money for reparations?

A: No. No. I know people get it from Switzerland. First of all, I don't know whether my parents had any account. No, I don't. I don't need that money. I -- I have two granddaughters and I hope they will never know what it means to go through a war. It's devastating. I often think about it. But I had a good husband and he was -- he pulled me through it. I would have never survived without him. First of all, I would have gone with my father, and second, I didn't know how to do it. He was -- he was the one who arranged everything for me, yeah. Strange. I never thought when I was young that I will go through such a war. What makes one crazy man do things? And they were -- there were some very bright, intelligent people in his group who followed him. That is the tragic thing. When I read the story of -- what was the name of his -- his main -- like here it, it was the -- the forces, the -- his for -- he -- Rommel. He was a bright, intelligent man, but he was caught. He was caught. There were more men like that. This is -- this is tho -- though it's not an explanation why people followed him. So you work for the memorial hospital -- for the Holocaust Museum? Pardon me.

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand "8 August 15, 1998

Q: Y-Yes, this is an interview for the museum. You said you had spoken to your granddaughter's class -- classes?

A: Yes.

Q: Can you tell me why you're doing that and what your thoughts are?

A: Well, my son asked me would we sp -- would -- at that time Julian was with me.

And we spoke to her class, which was the -- this -- you know, she is now 13, but must have been -- maybe she was eight, something like that. And then they ask us in that school would we speak to the older kids, and we did. And I was amazed, really amazed at the attention they gave us. And the questions they ask us, they were very bright questions. Especially about the -- the part where we described in what conditions we were hidden. Very bright.

Q: Why did you do this?

A: Well, he wanted us to talk to them. The principal was curious and he wanted us to talk to them, and I -- I thought it was -- be very interesting for kids to know what people go through, and they still live a normal life. And he even ask me this year too to talk to, but I didn't, because I didn't feel up to it, but maybe I -- I'll do it, if he asks me again.

Q: You said you wanted to let the children know that you can go this -- through this and live a normal life. You feel your life was normal after the war?

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Lena Jurand "4 August 15, 1998

A: Yes, yes, yes. Since we came to this country, I feel that we have led a very normal life, yes. I am happy.

Q: Do -- do you feel totally assimilated into American culture?

A: Yes and no. I am quite critical about the president, you know. And -- but yes, I am, I am. | like this country. I'm very happy here, and I often think of my father, he loved this country. The lower east side of New York. He loved it. My mother had another sister who was a very active with a Jewish newspaper here in New York, is it Forward?

Q: "The Forward."

A: Yeah. Yes. But she passed away. She lived there, downtown New York. I used to visit her quite often. So that's my life history.

Q: Is there anything else we -- you would like to say that we haven't covered?

A: What else to say to you? You know, my son, when he was 20 years old and was in medical school, he fell in love with a very lovely Jewish girl. And I -- I thought they were a little bit too young to marry, but he insisted -- they were both 20 -- he insisted they get married. They got married, they had a little apartment near GW where he was going to medical school. And I thought everything was beautiful until about maybe six or seven months after they got married, he ask us to come over and we did. And she was sitting next to the window, and I says, what is it sweetheart?

Interview with Lena Jurand 8 August 15, 1998 Maybe we come here maybe too often, I thought, maybe it's too much for her. She says no, you know, I love you, but I just don't want to be married any more. And it was a terrific blow to him, really bad. She was the one who got the divorce and as far as I know, to this day she didn't remarry. So then he met this girl, and she's not Jewish. And he married her, and seem like a good marriage. She works for the World Bank. She's a good mother. I would have preferred marry a Jewish girl, but who am I to say something? And he seems to be working out very nicely. He took over the psychiatric division of the hospital in Martinsburg, West Virginia, and he directed now a play in the theater, he goes in his father's footsteps. And he wants me to move there. So I don't know what life will bring, whatever it is. And I think it's very nice of you to sit here and listen to me for such a long time. You must be exhausted.

Q: Well, thank you very, very much for doing this interview.

A: You're very welcome. It was my pleasure.

Q: This concludes the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview.

Conclusion of Interview 96 Interview with Lena Jurand August 15, 1998