Document

JOHN KRAWIEC January 29, 2015

Q: This is a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with

Mr. John Krawiec, on January 29", 2015, in Evanston, Illinois. Thank you very,

very much Mr. Krawiec for agreeing to speak with us today.

A: Pleasure.

Q: Before we get into all of the difficult times of the war years, I'm going to ask a

number of questions about what your life was like in pre-wars years; and the idea is

to get a sense of the world you were born into, the people that you knew, who you

were close to; so that when the war comes we can understand how things changed,

and what was lost. So my first question is the very basic: can you tell me the date of

your birth?

A: June 15, 1919.

Q: And where were you born?

A: Village Bahuszets(ph), county of Przemysl in Poland.

Q: Can you tell me approximately where is this place, the village?

A: It is southern Poland now, close to border with Ukraine.

Q: Okay. Is it still within the territory of today's Poland?

A: Yes, it's still in territory of Poland, yes.

Q: Okay. And, what was your name at birth?

A: Jan.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

Interview with John Krawiec ,

January 29, 2015

Q: Jan.

A: Jan Francis.

Q: Jan FrantiSSek, would that be?

A: Yes, yeah.

Q: Frantisek.

A: Jan Franciszek.

Q: Jan Franciszek Krawiec?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. You were born in 1919. So tell me a little bit about your father and your

mother. What was his name, what was her name?

A: Mother was Ludwiga(ph), father Michal(ph). They -- they -- they got little farm

in the village. So I was born on the village, on farm. And first -- first years of my

life were very happy, run around in fields and forests, it was nice -- as the river San,

which is large river. So that was really happy years. And I was not an angel,

because my neighbors of my parents called me little devil of kra -- kraft -- Krawiec

little devil. So I was little devil. And from little devil, naturally angel cannot grow

up angel. So I was -- when I grew up, I was not angel neither.

Q: So what are some of the things that you would do that earned you this title of

little devil?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

Interview with John Krawiec deg

January 29, 2015

A: Well, I don't remember, you know, because it was when I was seven, eight years

old And -- but I was -- I--I suppose that I was a little devil.

Q: Okay.

A: I don't -- I can admit that. Then, when I went to high school, and because that

was eight years high school, called gymnasium.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And that was from Austrian times yet. It change later, but I was still going there

all eight years high school. So, normally after four grades, but my mother said, my

little boy, let him stay, one year younger. So I went to high school after third grade.

Q: I see.

A: And so I was in a c -- in a class, I was one year older of my classmate.

Q: Did you --

A: So---

Q: Did you have brothers and sisters?

A: [have two brothers and sisters. One brother died shortly after the war, and I had

some very bad feeling about that, because during the war, when I just started

underground, here, even [indecipherable] means some things. But when the

Gestapo came to pick me up, I was not home, and so I ran away, and they took him

--he was 16 years old -- and tortured him, tried to get information from him. And he The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

Interview with John Krawiec deg

January 29, 2015

knew quite a bit, but he didn't tell them anything. And so after three or four times of

that, I was ready to give myself up to Gestapo, you know, to save him. But my

mother told me, he already is -- have some problems, and the -- with his health after

those tortures. So they will kill you, and they will kill him, so -- but then they finally

gave him -- stop -- stopped to take him. And so | thought that maybe to -- but he got

sick and shortly after the war in 1946, he die.

Q: A young boy.

A: Young boy, he was -- well, not young boy, he was 20 -- in 46, he was 23.

Q: Oh, he was 23 then.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. So, he was younger than you?

A: Oh yes, he was four years younger.

Q: What was his name?

A: Miertek(ph).

Q: Miertek(ph).

A: Yeah.

Q: And were you the oldest child in the family?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

Interview with John Krawiec "

January 29, 2015

A: I was the oldest one, the th -- then sister Valerie, Miertek(ph) and Zbyszek(ph).

Zbyszek(ph) is 10 years younger. He's still alive. Sister died about three years ago.

And the o -- youngest one is still alive. He was -- he is 10 years younger than I am.

Q: Does he live here, in the United States too?

A: No, he lives on the -- in th -- well, he live in the old house [indecipherable] they

built new one in the same spot where I was born.

Q: Oh. Was your family from -- can you repeat the name of the village again?

A: Bahuszets(ph).

Q: Bahuszets(ph).

A: Bahuszets(ph).

Q: Bahuszets(ph). Was the family from Bahuszets(ph) for many generations?

A: Yes.

Q: And were -- was it a farm family?

A: Farm family, small farm.

Q: About how many hectares?

A: Hectares? They got six [indecipherable] eight -- about four -- four hectares.

Q: Oh, that is kind of small, for a farm.

A: Yeah, it's -- well, it was smaller, but then you have -- there was Krasicki(ph)

[indecipherable] landlord family, and they get this, his land, give him only hundred The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

Interview with John Krawiec deg

January 29, 2015

acres, and the rest they sell to the farmers in the village, so my father bought co --

some hectare or two, I can't remember now.

Q: Mm-hm. Did your father serve in World War I?

A: He serve in World War I, in Austrian army. He was wounded, and he was

getting pension. He got one leg about nine centimeters shorter.

Q: Because of his service? Because of the wound?

A: Because the wounds, yeah.

Q: Okay. And so, his service was in the Austro-Hungari -- that was Austro-

Hungary ti -- had it ruled over this part of the -- of Poland?

A: Yeah, that was this part, after partition of Poland, this part, [indecipherable]

Galicia, southern Poland was part of Austria.

Q: Okay. And your mother? Tell me a little bit about her family. Were they also

from the village of Bahuszets(ph)?

A: Same village, but not the same -- little further. Few kilometers away, much larger

la -- much larger village, this was a number of people -- families [indecipherable]

and on the hills. And my mother came from a large family, but they had, let's see,

20 -- they had 10 or 12 hectares of land. Yeah, they -- they -- their parents.

Q: How ma -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

Interview with John Krawiec deg

January 29, 2015

A: But th-th-they had some 10 or 11 children, so she was one -- not the youngest

one, but second from the youngest one.

Q: Mm-hm. And -- but nevertheless, from the area.

A: And she -- th -- in this village they had seven grades school. In my village, was

smaller, they had only five grade school.

Q: So when you went to gymnasium, did you go to another village?

A: Well, I go to -- I was in PrzemySl.

Q: In Przemysl. And that's a larger town?

A: Because there was no gymnasium anyplace close, and I have to leave it,

PrzemysSl, because there were buses already, but not very -- that was ni -- when I

started, 1931. So --

Q: Twelve years old, yeah.

A: So, thir-thirt -- 31. So, the buses were not very reliable, and not the time which

would be good for me, you know, to get to school. Too early or too late. So you

have to live there, live in Przemysl.

Q: Was that -- I mean, I've heard of many stories of people, you know, the -- it's

usually the oldest child, and particularly if it's a boy, who is designated to get

whatever education there will be. Was that the case in your family?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 10

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Well, not exactly. Th-That is true, because I was the oldest one, and my mother

was [indecipherable] your father has this money, pension, you know, so it will

help, you know, she wanted at least one. And then we were -- we planned that the

youngest one -- I be already after studies, some position, whatever I will study, and

so I will help the youngest brother to go too.

Q: Also, so that once you get --

A: Yeah, but there were only two of us from the village in the gymnasium.

Q: Only two?

A: Only two.

Q: And --

A: Because any other cannot afford it.

Q: I see. And gymnasium was not state sponsored. You had to pay.

A: Well, it was -- well, I -- it was state sponsored, there was 150 dollars a year f --

zloty a year gan -- the interest of 220 zloty a year. I get the --I don't have to pay,

provided that I get good grades. So I didn't pay, but I have to live in town, so they

have to pay my rent, and my food and everything else. So that was -- that is -- th-this

was expensive.

Q: Did you miss home, as a 12 year old boy?

A: Well, sure, at the beginning, but later it all -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 11

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: You got used to it.

A: -- new fre-friends you know, and so on. So, sure I was -- specially the village

itself, and my mother and father and my brothers. But it was hard to say it was any

hardship, because it was not too far. 1 was coming for Easter and Christmas and

vacation.

Q: In -- in Bahuszets(ph), how large of a village was it? How many fams --

A: It has about 250 families.

Q: Oh, so it's not small. Did it have its own church?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: It was church for two villages.

Q: Okay.

A: An old church. They found in some history the parish already existed in -- in si--

hundred -- 1640.

Q: Wow. Wow. Were there -- were there any other kinds of people? That is, were

there any Jews in Bahuszets(ph), or --

A: No.

Q: No.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 12

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: There was, nearby, four kilometer, was little town baho -- Dubiecko. This was

majority of Jewish.

Q: Okay.

A: It was 1,000 population.

Q: Okay.

A: Dubiecko, where the poet Ignacy Krasicki was born. V-Very --

Q: Very famous poet?

A: Very famous poet. The second, after Kochanowski, considered the second best

poet in independent Poland before partition.

Q: I see. So, in the 18" century.

A: He was in 19" ce -- during the partition.

Q: I see.

A: He was later bishop of -- bishop of Warmia, which is little bos -- pars of -- part of

Prussia, east Prussia.

Q: In your village, how developed was it? Did people have electricity and running

water?

A: No. Before the war, no electricity, no running water. We had, because my father

and few others get together and -- in the -- well, villages in valley over San river,

and goes up. And on the -- when the hills started, there -- it was a good well, you The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

Interview with John Krawiec 8

January 29, 2015

know, the good water. So they bil -- make -- discover this, and build the pipes

through house, I didn't -- 10 or 15 houses in the village. Private [indecipherable]

you know. So we had running water, but no electricity. Electricity came after the

War.

Q: After World War II?

A: After World II, yeah.

Q: Yeah. And did th --

A: They were started already electricity, because they built before the war be -- they

built on the rivers those dam, you know, and electric hydro -- hydro-electric. And

they built mi -- villages nearby, had already electricity. And on the way to the town,

you know, or they spread this electricity in the villages, too.

Q: Did any b--

A: But our village, no.

Q: Did anybody have an automobile in the village?

A: No.

Q: No.

A: Only Ravla(ph) Karszitski(ph), the -- the landlord.

Q: Only the landlord had it.

A: Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 14

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: He pro -- probal -- priest didn't have neither.

Q: Okay.

A: [indecipherable]

Q: Was the priest a very influential person?

A: Beg pardon?

Q: Was the local priest, you know, the village priest a very influential person?

A: Well, it depends. In my time there were two. One was a long time, but he was

not very liked. And then next one came about two years before -- two years maybe t

-- yeah, t-two years, t-two -- three years an -- before the war. And he was very liked,

and he was influential, and -- and he was completely different than his predecessor.

Q: In what way?

A: Bi--- what?

Q: In what way?

A: Well, he wa -- he's -- he was more with the people, when his predecessor was

more of a Ravla(ph) Karszitski(ph), you know.

Q: More with the -- with the landlord, and more --

A: Yes, aristocratic people, and so on. And -- and this wa -- they not -- successor was

more with the people. And I have something to do with that because when we came, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 15

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

I just happened ba -- I [indecipherable] run into him. And we have a long talk, he

asked point blank what happened, because in -- bishop, they tell him that this -- that

this vil -- village is qu-quite communist, many communists, which was not true. It

was one. But the predecessor, well, that was local problems. There was a -- the

peasant party, and a youth organization, wici(ph), which was quite radical. And the

organizer of the wici(ph) became communist. He had some friends in France, and

they tend to be communists in France, and they send him some literature --

Q: And he was influenced?

A: And he be -- got influenced, so he became communist. But then -- and that was

the reason the government ca -- the county office closed the -- the local wici(ph)

organization

Q: The youth organization.

A: Yeah. And so they got somebody else on his place, and so he was not influential,

this guy in the village, really, but that is what happened. And 1935, I believe, there

was a problem in the village, because the -- the landlord had lot of land, and he need

--and not much machinery. He had already some machinery, but a lot of work was

done by hand, by people. So he pay from about a zloty a day, with a -- with -- on

your own food. So, only a zloty a day.

Q: So that's considered not a lot of money.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 16

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: There was not a lot of money -- well, that was a lot of money, but not enough,

you know. Food would cost more than zloty a day, you know.

Q: Okay, so --

A: -- or at least zloty for food, yeah.

Q: Okay, so somebody who would work his land --

A: So the youth, this organization, although was formally disbanded by the

government, but they still existed, and they have -- they have library, and even

[indecipherable] them, because they ask me what kind of book to buy, and they

have some eve -- may -- even some to -- correct money for thing. So they decided to

strike. Well, strike, and here is time of harvest, you know --

Q: In the summer.

A: And he need the people to take care of the -- and the priest, previous one, on the

-- in the church, stated that cris -- Christ said muts -- pray and work and pray,

something like that. And so, it is cri -- it is sin to destroy, to -- to do harvest, you

know, God's whatever.

Q: Food.

A: Yeah. And so -- and when he said that from the altar, the young people walk out

of the church, you know.

Q: Oh ho. Oh ho. Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 17

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: So that became the story that it is communist, you know. So, they were not

communist, but they just didn't like it, and when the new priest came, and I -- as I

said, I just hap -- by accident I ran into -- to him, about first or second day when we

came, before he even has -- has a first mass in church. So we talk, and I tell him all

about. So he change -- so he knew how to handle himself.

Q: Okay.

A: And I was -- that was ki -- at the end of vacation, when I was -- not vacation, but

-- yeah, in summer, before it's -- the school started. And so I went to school, to

Przemysl, and by return for east -- for Christmas, I walk with my father at night, the

night -- midnight --

Q: Mass?

A: -- mass.

Q: Mm-hm, at Christmastime, yeah.

A: For Christmas -- cris -- the na -- eve. And so we walk on from the priest's --

priest's house, p-priest walk with one of the leaders of this --

Q: Strike.

A: -- youth organization.

Q: Okay.

A: So I se --I said to her -- my father, oh-oh, it looks good.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 18

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Yeah.

A: And really, when we get there, all the yo-young people were there, singing, you

know, carols and so on. So it was very -- everything went back to normal.

Q: Was your family political at all?

A: Well, my father belonged to this peasant party you know. This was --

Q: This was -- was this --

A: But he was not very active, or -- he just belonged.

Q: So -- but the peasant party, was it -- what kind of orientation did it have?

A: Well, it was -- it was for cons -- but it was conservat -- farmers, small farmers,

you know.

Q: Okay.

A: So they had -- they -- they were for post government to get rid of those lard --

large landlords, and divided that between the peasants and the small farmers. Wi--

not take away, but they paid the landlord for -- for the land.

Q: So, land reform.

A: Land reform.

Q: It's land reform.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 19

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: And -- and some small taxes for poor farmers, you know, and things like that.

Local. Then the school, you know especially when the -- some places had -- they

want to have school. For -- for example, just four grades to have, more --

Q: More grades.

A: More grades in this school, like the large villages have. And so, various things

like that. It was not very radical.

Q: So your -- your father made his living and was able to support the family, both

from the pension, and from farming the land?

A: Farming, yeah.

Q: And did the -- did he have any help to do it, either by hiring people, or with the

children?

A: Well, sometimes -- in some -- specially, you know, with his leg shorter, he has a

problem to -- lifting heavy things on one leg, because the other one was not -- so in

some, for some job, he hire for one day or two days, one man or two mens, or

women, it depends what kind of job. [inaudible]

Q: Did the kids -- did you and your brothers and your sister help out on the farm?

A: Oh sure, when we grow up, I was, I don't know how -- how many, four or five

years old, I-- I already watched the cows. We had three cows we have to watch

them so they don't go on next -- next owner, he -- who has something.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 20

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: So y -- in other word, they stay within their land.

A: Yes.

Q: So that they stay within their land.

A: And so the first job I--I had when I was young, five, six years old; watch cows.

Q: Did you have to get up earlier in the morning to do it?

A: Well, sure.

Q: Yeah?

A: Yeah.

Q: What time?

A: Oh, about 5:30, 6:00, 5:30, something like that.

Q: For kids like -- for kids who grew up in the city, that is a different world.

A: I know that. I know that, but I wouldn't change.

Q: No?

A: No. No, I won't change.

Q: So-

A: It's lazy -- lazy life in the city. No, I wouldn't change. That was -- well, we don't

li--I don't like that when I was this age, but it was -- besides that, I was so many

fun, you know, afterwards. This river, this -- I was nine years old when I swim

across the river, it was nice sized river, and it got wild bur -- in the -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 21

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: You got in a whirlpool?

A: Yes.

Q: No-

A: Across the -- that was the thing, you know, to cross, get across, get out of that. I--

I did that when I was nine years old.

Q: Oh my goodness --

A: Naturally my father didn't do -- know about it, and my mother.

Q: Mm-hm. Oh, that's a definition of a devil, you know, who the devil is.

A: Yes, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: That is definition, too.

Q: Yeah.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: Little devil.

Q: And did you finish your high school years in Przemysl, did you say?

A: Yes. I graduated in 1938.

Q: Okay. And then you were 19 years old, yes?

A: Yes. And we have to -- we have to go to the se -- to the army.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 22

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: We are drafted to the army, but we have choice, we can -- decided. Go to the

army, or go to university, and show them that -- and register at the university, so

they will --

Q: Delay your army.

A: -- delay my service until I graduated from university.

Q: So which did you choose?

A: So I di--I decided to go to serve in the army, get rid of that, and then go to

study. And the univer -- the army made reservation for me in University of Lwew,

for political science as a background for journalism.

Q: Oh, really?

A: Because I was dreaming about journalism, and in high school already, I wrote to

some papers.

Q: Isn't that interesting?

A: I was the -- I was the best in the class in the -- in history, literature, and the worst

one in mathematics.

Q: Can we cut just for a second? [break]

A: And that -- only I know that, but teacher knew that too. So that was --

Q: Oh, unfortunate.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 23

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- not very --

Q: Yeah. Okay.

A: And history -- and history and literature, I -- we have, you know, some -- to write

some work at home, mi-- minimum 10 pages. No -- yeah, minimum 10 pages.

Usually I bring 25 pages.

Q: You had a lot to say.

A: Yes, yes.

Q: Yes, okay.

A: L always -- history, we have some -- for example, there's some part of some

medieval times or something, so we got chapter in the books -- chapters in the book.

I've --I --I read the whole book, about that m -- not -- sometimes not once, but even

twi--- two different books on -- on the topic. On the second -- first World War, I read

several books on the se -- first World War.

Q: So you were -- you were planning to go to the University of Lwew?

A: Yes.

Q: But first you accepted the draft into the army service. And tell me about your

army service a little bit.

A: Well, that was cadet school for ca -- cadet school for reserve officers. It was a

special military school, with different -- well, we get all basic trainings as anybody The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 24

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

else, but we have also additional -- we -- they prepare us to be commanders of, like a

section. There was druzyna, they call in Polish, it was 18 soldiers. So that, for

example. And platoon, there were three section, so all together 60-some soldiers.

There -- we are trained to lead these units, you know. And then we end this in -- end

of July, I graduated from the school as corporal --

Q: Is it rank of corporal?

A: -- corporal -- corporal, but [indecipherable] you know, there was addition, that I

am not the regular corporal, but this cadets --

Q: A little higher?

A: The cadets" school, the con -- so after three years I'll be second lieutenant, you

know.

Q: I see.

A: Three years not serving, but every year during vacation, going for four weeks

training [indecipherable] in the military, and so on.

Q: Where did you go to -- where did you attend -- where was this cadet school

located?

A: In Jarostaw.

Q: Jarostaw.

A: Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 25

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: And where is Jarostaw, in Poland?

A: Not far from Przemysl; north -- little northwest of Przem -- about 30 kilometer.

Q: Okay, okay. Okay, so the first year you graduated, and you have a rank of

corporal, as, you know --

A: Yes, that's in July 19 -- end of July 1939, I was assigned to infantry regiment in

Przemysl. That was the beginning of Septemb -- of Octob -- August; and September

first, war break out.

Q: Okay, before --

A: So I was in the military when the war break out.

Q: I want to come to that in a minute. In your village -- in your village, was politics

discussed much? Was it of any --

A: Well, it is, it was. The village -- this part is former Galicia, you know, former

Austria -- part of Poland which was under Austria. It -- this peasant party was very

popular. There was -- in the village, sometimes you can find nobody else -- nobody

connected with any other party but this one.

Q: Okay, and because I don't know much about Polish interwar politics, was

Pilsudski's party, or the people who followed him, also connected?

A: Well, they were some even -- even -- well, basically, the peasant party was not

for Pilsudski.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 26

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: But -- but even among them, there were some followers of Pilsudski, and in the

same thing, although they were pow -- followers of the peasant party.

Q: Okay.

A: Pilsudski was quite popular as -- as a person.

Q: As a person, I see, I see. So, do you remember any events from the summer of

1939, before the war breaks out, of -- in your life?

A: Nothing special, normal -- it was normal -- normal thing. I was in military, so I

got one week to go before -- at the end of the school, I got one week for to go to my

parents, you know, to my family.

Q: One week leave.

A: One -- we got one leave, and then report in the regiment, infantry regiment in --

Przemysl.

Q: What about international events, in Bahuszets(ph), in -- in Przemysl --

A: Well, pi-- nothing happen --

Q: -- were people talking --

A: --small village, there's not much inter -- I-- I was interested because I was

dreaming about journalist, now history and politics and so on. So I was very

interested, and I still remember the day, 1938, before we register, report to the The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 27

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

military, I met with some colleague, and we went to movie. And at that time there

was no television, but before movie they have news in te -- in ke -- before movies.

Q: So newsreels.

A: Newsreel, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: So they got mu -- news. And I remember this news, that was end of September, I

think, 1938.

Q: Okay.

A: When Prime Minister McMillen came to England after meeting Hitler --

Q: Oh, you mean, she wa --

A: -- and they give up -- give up Sudetenland, you know, Czechoslovakia. And I

bring you peace. And millions of Londoners greet him, you know, and go -- and not

year e -- not even a year, because of September 1", 1939, h-he invaded -- Hitler

invaded Poland.

Q: So you remember seeing the --

A: So, I se --

Q: -- Neville Chamberlain.

A: Chamberlain.

Q: Yes.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 28

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- but -- probably not McMillen, Chamberlain.

Q: Mm-hm. And peace in our time.

A: Yes, yes --

Q: Peace in our time.

A: -- this is -- in this -- this movie, this -- I still is -- I see this picture, you know.

Q: And what did you think at that point? Did you think he was naive?

A: Well, I don't think what -- after all, great power -- or Great Britain, everybody

thi -- thought that there's just something, you know.

Q: Okay.

A: You finally achieve something, and you have peace.

Q: Hm. And so you took an interest in international affairs. Like, did you follow the

events in Germany with the rise of the Nazi party? Were you interested in --

A: Oh yeah, sure.

Q: Mm-hm. Did people talk about that at all, in--

A: Oh yes, sure. You know, Poles are anti-Germans -- Germans, for centuries.

Q: Okay.

A: Poland and Germany always border, and the border moves back and forth all

the time. So there are mixed territories, and -- and so on. So there were -- there was a The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 29

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

even saying that Pole -- Pole and German never will be brothers, or something like

that.

Q: What about what was going on to the east? Did you -- ah, did you know much, or

was there much news about what was going on in the Soviet Union?

A: Yes. And the rest of Europe didn't know much, rest of the war. But we had the

long border, and in spite of very tight security on Soviet side, some sneaked through

to Poland. And so we know from them and Polish press, interview them, and so we

knew very well what is going on, and that Stalin is not better than Hitler. But the

rest of the Europe, rest of the world didn't believe it. Especially intellectuals were

quite left wing, to the left bent, and they -- any those news about gulags, you know,

and so on, they consider capitalist propaganda against Soviets, you know, against

socialism, which is the future of the mankind, and so on. But we know quite a bit,

and Polish press publish that quite often. So we had no -- we had no --

Q: Was there -- okay.

A: --any doubt.

Q: In your -- in Bahuszets(ph), did people have radios?

A: No, not at that time. There -- there have, the Karszitski(ph) have, and then later

prop -- pi-- pastor have a -- a radio.

Q: Okay, so the -- the chur -- the -- the priest had one, and so did the landlord?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 30

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay, but regular people --

A: Regular people can't afford it.

Q: Okay.

A: And beside that, was no electricity on top of that, so you need batteries on top of.

Q: Yeah.

A: You know. So -- but anyway, when war break out and occupation, all Poles have

to give the radios to Germans. No Pole can own a radio. So this Karszitski(ph),

aristocratic family, due to connection with some aristocratic family in Austria --

because -- the territory was, before the war, part of Austria. So some of them were

even in the Austrian [indecipherable] in parliament. Polish aristocrat, you know,

representing -- because Galicia at that time had already [indecipherable] you know,

some --

Q: You're talking before the first World War?

A: Yeah, be -- be -- sin-since ni -- since ninet -- 1868, until the first World War. So

the -- through connection with some aristocratic family in Austria, they got

permission to -- to own a radio, to keep the radio. But the village was right on the

San River, which was boundary bet-between German and Soviet occupation.

Q: Really?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 31

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: So -- yes, at the beginning, it was. And San River was the boundary. And

because of that, the grenzschutz, the border guard, German border guard had a sec

-- have a-- the group, you know, how many, some unit. And they -- and they -- and

the -- and the landlord has two villas, one old, and new. So the Germans took the

new villa and family moved to old villa. And it was old, but little --- maybe little -- no

[indecipherable] from the San River, which was boundary. From the river you can

see the -- the other side of the river with the Soviet guards, you know.

Q: Oh really? You were able to do that?

A: Yeah, well, across the river, boundary.

Q: Yeah. So tell me, where were you on September 1", 1939? Do you remember?

A: September 1*, 1939?

Q: Mm-hm.

A: I was in the military.

Q: Do you remember where?

A: In Przemysl.

Q: And do you remember how you learned of the war?

A: About the war, we learn very quickly, about two, three -- three, four days. About

three days before. The -- the government declared mobilization. So the first

civilians, you know, reservists, those who serve two -- year or two years ago, start to The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 32

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

arrive, but then they started that, because -- under pressure from France and

England, that there is provocation for Hitler, you know.

Q: If there -- if you mobilize.

A: If Poland mobilize. Because he concentrated army on Polish border.

Q: Yeah.

A: You know.

Q: Yeah.

A: And so that was not provocation, but we mobilize. That was not provocation.

Q: Of course, of course.

A: So -- but couple days later, they declare mobilization again.

Q: Okay.

A: And so I-- and we -- we -- I was in the barrack in t -- in town, and we were, all the

civilians, we s-send them -- give them, you know, uniforms, and organized them in

section platoons, company and so on. And they, I don't know when they went. They

got orders to go somewhere.

Q: Mm-hm. Okay.

A: So that was when the war -- and September first, early morning, there was alarm

in the bar -- barracks, because they bomb -- they bomb Lwow, which was 98 -- about The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 33

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

100 kilometer east, and also some -- some -- something at the end of the town, some

military -- this thing, bomb, so, we got alarm.

Q: So, the German war planes went -- flew as far east as Lwow, and --

A: All Poland.

Q: All Poland, even the parts that were later occupied by the Russians?

A: Yes.

Q: I see.

A: They had bases already in Slovakia. They took over before Czechoslovakia.

Czechs became part of prot-protectorate they call, of Germany, and Slovakia

became independent, thanks to Hitler, you know.

Q: And so, what was the -- what were the first days of the war like for you? What

were you doing?

A: Well, for me was nothing but we were doing the same thing as before, arming

an-and organizing reservists into companies and so on, and send them away.

Q: Mm-hm. Okay.

A: And then was second -- third day, finally we get to the train and went west --

Q: Okay.

A: -- to the front.

Q: So then what happened?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 34

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Well, we -- that was in the evening. So we get the warning -- well, first thing, that

we stop in many places because the tracks were bombed, so they have to wait until

they repair tracks. And we get early morning to Tarnow, so not far from Przemysl,

well, about over a hundred two -- about 200 kilometer. And from there we walk

down south, and me -- me da -- knowing geography for -- quite good, we came -- I

because disturbed because already here, so far away from the west -- west, bombing.

But then they got already Slovakia. So they get off Slovakia northeast, and we --

Q: So German soldiers --

A: -- we took -- we took the -- our regiment -- I was that -- the division. We get on

Dunajec River, it was de -- running from Carpathian mountains north. So we get

down to the river, and it was hilly country, foots of Carpathian mountains. So

down and dig ho-holes, you know holes there, and to defense the river. So when I

get there, I say well, that is -- situation was, we back, from we are so far. And then

we hear, very shortly after, artillery, then machine guns south -- left from us, not too

far. So well, I know this Slovakia, I had came from Slovakia and -- and this is what

happened, and that was the first to -- we tried to stop them, but we didn't do much,

because further they get from Slovakia, they get on our backs.

Q: Oh, so in other words, you were fighting with German forces that were coming

through Slovakia, to Poland, but they were able even to go behind you, and -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 35

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Yes, because Slovakia was reaching further east.

Q: I see. And attack you from the behi -- from behind, as well?

A: Yeah, so it -- it-- so we were through next day, and I was in -- in unit which

supposed to slow down the advance of Germans.

Q: Okay.

A: So to help, give time the units to go --

Q: To retreat.

A: -- re-retreat further west -- further east. And at the evening, crossed at the evening

[indecipherable] the shooting machine guns, artillery where there was a river,

Wistok river, where our units went. And so -- well, knowing geography so well,

there is just Germans get there before we get there, on this. And the soldiers start to

run toward us, you know, back.

Q: Oh, you mean the ones who were retreating are now re -- running back towards

you?

A: Coming back to us, you know, we were [phone ringing] -- we were --

Q: Okay, let's stop. [break] Okay, so you -- before the phone rang, you were telling

me that you had some skirmishes, or some fight with the invading German armies,

who were coming through Slovakia, but they had circled around and back --

A: Yes.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 36

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: -- and so you're retreating forces, in -- in the end, ended up running back to you.

A: Yes.

Q: Okay, then what happened?

A: And then, I was in the unit which supposed to slow down the main forces, you

know.

Q: Right.

A: C-Coming from west. And so it wa -- er -- 1 was -- but my druzyna, means

section, 18 soldiers with machine gun. Then it was one heavy machine gun, and that

was one anti-tank gun. So, altogether those three different units, the sergeant was a

commander of that. So when the soldiers start to come in, he ask what is going on.

So -- and they said that, our forces were crossing the bridge, when from the

southwest, from Slovakia, the tanks, German tanks, machine guns and artillery,

start to bombard this bridge. So many people were killed on that bridge. And then

panic, on -- somewhere on this side, didn't know what to do. Some try looking for

some spot where the river is not deep, so they can walk across.

Q: And this is the San River?

A: No, that was Wistok.

Q: Wistok, okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 37

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Wistok. And -- Wisloka. Wis -- Wislok and Wisloka, this was Wisloka. Wislok

is next one. And -- and so the sergeant, after hearing that, disarm -- disbanded the

whole thing. Go anywhere you want, destroy the arms, and go wherever you want.

And --

Q: So you didn't surrender to the Germans, you just --

A: No, no.

Q: Okay.

A: Disarm and go wherever you want.

Q: Okay.

A: Go home. And so I asked my soldiers, my 18 soldiers, who came from the

villages where we were going, near Rzeszew - PrzemySl so, on the way, if they

wanted, I--I am sure the next -- next defense line will be on San, and I know the

territory, so [indecipherable] go northeast, so we will get there, if night comes, we

will get there. All 18 decided to go with me.

Q: So you would continue fighting on a different location?

A: No, not fighting, we were just marching.

Q: Marching, okay.

A: To get to -- to the la -- the defense line.

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 38

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: And so we stop, we sleep at ti-- at -- during the day, and walk at night --

Q: Okay.

A: -- because the airplanes.

Q: Right.

A: But before we get there, there was what, three days, the -- many civilians from

[indecipherable] this was part of Czechoslovakia which was [indecipherable]

Poles and Czech in 1918, local, divided this territory according -- living as -- as

many Poles on Czech side and Czechs on Polish side. So this part, th-they decided

this line [indecipherable] river was the boundary, and that was part of west side of

the river. But Benes the --

Q: Edward Benes, mm-hm.

A: -- Edward Benes, the prime minister of Czecho -- Czechoslovakia --

Q: - Slovakia.

A: -- after the war, he was with Masaryk in Paris, and he has good contacts, and

take him -- Poland was -- has a problem with Ukrainians, you know, in the east.

Then still Germans were in the west, and the Soviets are coming, approaching from

the east. So the -- they has to -- in the army, that the army was in the west. So they

decided and they took this t-to [indecipherable]. And this became, you know, point

of-- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 39

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Contention.

A: -- contention, the hard feeling between Poles and Czechs. So, in 1938, when

Hitler get the Sudetenland, Poland took this part to the line which they were

divided bet -- b-by Poles and Czechs in 1918. And they were really good Poles.

They were oh -- ma -- one interesting thing, they were not Catholic, they were

Protestant. And, on the way when I go there, couple hundreds of those young men

from [indecipherable] who serve in Czechs army, they -- wh-when the war break

out, when that -- they wa -- went to Polish places to mo -- to get mobilized, to get to

Polish army. But they were moving already, because approach mu -- Germans were

approaching, so they were moving. And they were walking, trying to get mo --

Q: To the Polish side.

A: -- to Polish uniforms, and arms, and fight. And -- but I don't remember now, 150

to cro -- close to 200 of them joined me. So I --

Q: Really?

A:--yes. And I was walking with unit of 18 soldiers with arm, and everything, and

here, civilians, you know. And I -- this is -- I get them to the San River. There was a

major who take this, my druzyna, my -- this 18 soldiers away, uniform, and armed.

And he got couple hundred civilians like that, walking, trying to get mobilized. And

I don't know how many, four or 500 of them. He told me to li -- get them to the s -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 40

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

railroad station, which was quite a way. Its took nex -- one day and next to railroad

station to Lublin, and they'd get -- they will be mobilized there --

Q: Okay.

A: --arms, and organize. So this is the way I lost my soldiers, and I

[indecipherable] in uniform, with four or 500 civilians, I walked to the railroad

station. And next day we get to the station, train was waiting for us, and -- but it take

all day, although there was not far, about a hundred, maybe 120 kilometers, but

tracks were bombed, so we have to wait until they -- they fixed the tracks, so we can

go back. And we get -- but by evening we get to Lublin, and we just get off the --

not on this pre -- passenger station, because there was not passenger car, but the to --

no, cattle cars, you know, those bar --

Q: Oh yeah, yeah, mm-hm.

A: You know. Covered, but not -- not person. So it start in the -- not in the personal

station, but in the station where they unloaded --

Q: Freight.

A: -- cargo.

Q: Yeah, mm-hm.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 41

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Yeah. So, and we just get off this station on the streets, when the last le -- be --

before evening, the last air force at the German air force attack, and they bombed

this station completely.

Q: Really.

A: But we were lucky --

Q: You got through.

A: --a few minutes before, we left this.

Q: Amazing.

A: Yeah.

Q: Amazing, yeah.

A: It was. We were lucky. And it was a su -- funny observation. So we fell down,

you know [indecipherable] you know, we fell down in the street, and against the

fence, wooden fence. What wooden fence give you protection? But this is -- this,

you know, in there, some feeling that you got some protection.

Q: Well, you know, the -- how the human mind works in panic --

A: Yes, yes, yeah.

Q: -- you know, it's -- it's -- it's crazy.

A: And so then, after that, I get this old group, and policeman show me the road to --

to military barracks. So get there, it was dark already, and the -- I went inside, we -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 42

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

on the yard, we sit down. And I went inside to report to some -- some major in

charge. So I report to him, and he told me sorry, the Germans cr-cross Vistula

River, just west of Lublin, and we are evacuating down, so get your people and

walked over [indecipherable]. And I said well, we didn't eat all day, so can we

have something to eat? Well, there is no problem, the kitchen is still working. So we

wait there, we get good. That was the last military --

Q: Meal.

A: -- dinner --

Q: Yeah.

A: --I get in my life. And it was good one. And so after the supper, the -- during

night, we walk, and by morning we get close to Chelm. There was some officer, a

lieutenant who si -- directed us to the forest nearby. And in this forest, there were

mountains of uniforms, guns, machine guns, artillery even, pieces, brand new, not

even used. Still like they were prepar -- you know --

Q: Preparing?

A: -- in their [indecipherable] houses. And the other people, and other soldiers, and

they were organizing, forming. And so I get to some major; an older fellow. I still

remember he didn't use [indecipherable] but he had just cap, and his white hairs,

you know, he see -- he was fighting during 1920 with the war with Soviet Union, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 43

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Poland and the Soviet Union. And so -- and he -- he was a really te -- very ideal

commander. And he, fast -- fast -- you know, take this stuff, and put down, and grab

--we have to get fast from here. And lucky that he did this, be -- he organize

battalion. I became again, commander of druzyna, 18 soldiers.

Q: Mm-hm. And so those -- those two hun --

A: And we walk not too far away from the forest, and not in column, you know --

Q: Yes.

A: -- but we spread already. When the air -- German airplanes start to bomb this

forest.

Q: Okay.

A: So we fell down on fields, and just seeing not too far away, what was going on

there. They hid -- you know, there were many ammunition. So they bomb it, and the

ammunition --

Q: Would explode.

A: -- explode.

Q: Yeah.

A: And so it was a hell, completely hell. And then we look in our major, and see

how smart he is that he push us fast, fast, fast, you know, we get out. And then I

[indecipherable] The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 44

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Was it -- was this pla -- you said this munitions mound of -- of -- of -- of weaponry

was in the middle of a forest?

A: They bring from warehouses, you know, before the Germans arrive.

Q: Okay. And was it visible, do you think, from the sky?

A: Well, the forest was -- it was in the forest, but they can see it as --

Q: Of course.

A: -- here and there, the ki -- the for -- the trees don't cover --

Q: Everything.

A: -- completely --

Q: Yes.

A: -- everything, so they can see it.

Q: So it was a great target.

A: And they see there are many people around, you know.

Q: Yeah.

A: So then there we were with th -- with this battalion, with this major, I was

participating in the very, very si--hard fight. I lost from my 18 people, I lost six.

Q: Oh, that's a third, yeah, that's a lot.

A: Yeah, but we were fighting until 27.

Q: Wow.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 45

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: September 27.

Q: That's a long time.

A: Yes. We were fighting Germans, and on -- from the back, we got Soviets. That

was somewhere between Zamosc and Tomaszow Lubelski.

Q: Did you -- so, first you we -- you had this equipment, and you were fighting the

Germans, and then when were you fighting the Soviets?

A: Well, we were not fighting, because that was -- they was in the middle of Poland

already. Matter of fact, this territory, they were -- next day they stop and wer --

withdrew, because they decide to change the boundary between Germany and

Soviet occupation.

Q: Had you any idea, did -- you personally, did you have any idea that there had

been an agreement between the Nazis and the Soviets?

A: No, we didn't have any idea about that.

Q: Okay. Okay. So it must have been a surprise?

A: We know that they were -- between Hitler and Stalin, they were the worst

enemies, you know, all the time.

Q: Yeah.

A: The -- this anti [indecipherable] pact with Germany, Italy and Japan.

Q: Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 46

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Against Soviets, you know.

Q: So it must have been a real surprise.

A: Yes, it was a surprise.

Q: Okay. So you fought until the 27" of September?

A: Yes.

Q: That's a good long time. Wasn't Warsaw already occupied by that time?

A: Warsaw was -- Warsaw surrendered next day.

Q: Twenty-eighth?

A: Twenty-eighth.

Q: So, what was the -- what was the surrender like for you? I mean --

A: Well, the surrender was like this, our major -- we were marching during the

night, fighting during the day.

Q: Okay.

A: As I said, I know geography, and I was quite disturbed that we were practically

fighting in some unit, same territory, not too far away. We on -- we get information

that we try to -- back through German line to help Lwew.

Q: Okay.

A: Lwow was still fighting.

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 47

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: And so that we -- well, but that was too strong, we cannot break through them.

So we back some up -- so then we withdrew, move someplace else, try something

someplace else. So that was the -- our situation. And then finally, one day, to our

surprise, at evening, instead of march somewhere, they told us to go to forest and

sleep. Na-Naturally, we -- guards and so on. So, next morning, it was September,

you know, a short -- day short already. We get up, nothing happened. So finally

officers get out, and in order to -- company, there was three companies in battalion,

plus one platoon of machine guns, heavy machine guns. And we had also one

artillery piece assigned to this battalion. So we get on the -- near the fo -- out of

forest, on the field, organized like in -- like in a -- peace time. Company, company,

you know? And then the major get to us, and he said just one not very nice word.

He speak le -- to -- I speak to you last time, and so he says here, you know, what we

went, here are Germans, here are Soviets. It was completely surprise to us, that was

27. And then cross the border 17, but we didn't know. We were in fight -- we don't

--we had no radi -- radio, we don't have press, and ja -- newspaper, or anything. We

were fighting during the day, and marching at night, from one spot to another spot.

So destroy the arm, and go home. And at that moment, lieutenant, professional

soldier, lieutenant under -- under [indecipherable] first, at the right side of the co --

right end of the company, shoot himself, and fell down. And the major re -- hearing The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 48

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

that, hearing the gun, you know, shoot; turn around and pointed. He is coward. This

is the easiest way to do when it's difficult time, to shoot yourself. We are needed.

The war is not ended. E-England and France are fighting. We are needed. Our job

is to get home, not tra -- try not to be taken prisoners of war, but get home, because

we will be needed. And so -- well, we destroy our guns, and then I found out that I

cannot put a to -- written [indecipherable] week or so, so my feet were bang -- bang

Q: In-- your feet were hurting.

A: Hurting, yeah. So I went to some little river, took the shoes off, wash them. My

feet were -- the left foot swo -- swell, and it was -- I -- I was -- I had fever. I feel, you

know, fever, and it was painful. I cannot put this back -- shoe back on. So I put sh-

shoe o-over my arms, you know, and walked barefooted. There was little -- little

mill -- using water, you know, water mill. And they told me that I have to drop this

uniform, because they already know from some people Bolsheviks are not far away,

and they took all those in uniform, they took -- they take them --

Q: They were arresting them?

A: Yeah. And so -- well, some -- they give me -- they find me some old --

Q: Clothes?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 49

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: --cl-clo -- shir -- well, pants and -- and jacket. And -- and they tell me to go in the

forest in [indecipherable] to go in forest and take all -- and put this, my uniform, in

the hole, so they -- they don't found in the house.

Q: That's right.

A: So I did that, and then I start to walk home.

Q: Did you -- did you get something for your foot?

A: Well, I--I get from them, they got not much, but I have some friend from

military, from this -- but he was in different regiment, so I don't know if he return

already or not, but not far away in the forest there.

Q: Okay, so did -- but was th -- did you still walk barefoot, or did you --

A: Barefoot, yeah.

Q: You still were barefoot.

A: And I get to little town, Shinyawa(ph), and at that time there, the Soviets are

take -- walk -- getting to the town. So I turned on the road to this friend of mine who

-- whose father was forest ranger. And so I get there and he was home already, and

his mother took care, you know. We had, wi-with us, some bandages, some three

medication: aspirin -- aspiryna, jodyna -- aspiryna, jodyna, iryzyna(ph).

Q: And what is that? So aspirin --

A: Aspirin, iodine and a [indecipherable] it is for -- for stomach -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 50

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: -- constipation, yeah. To relieve stomach, constipation. There were three

medication which we had with us.

Q: Okay.

A: So -- and I got home some, and so his mother take care of this, my foot, and I

spend there, for a week or more before it heals. And so -- and then I walk back -- not

-- well, it was far, but --

Q: So tell me, what had -- what had happened to your foot? Had it swollen within

the shoe? Had it gotten injured?

A: Well, it -- it -- it get infected. It was infection.

Q: Okay. Okay. And it was because you weren't taking your shoes off?

A: Yes, because, you know, we were --

Q: You were fighting.

A: -- sleeping, fighting.

Q: And sleeping in shoes.

A: And when you -- after all day, you know, fighting, run and -- and so on, so you

get finally sleep, you -- before you hit the ground, you sleep already.

Q: Yeah.

A: I don't need any sleeping pills.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

Interview with John Krawiec *

January 29, 2015

Q: Not after that kind of a day.

A: No.

Q: No. Okay. So, eventually, do you get home to Bahuszets(ph)?

A: So I get home, and short -- a-and then late already, it was sep -- September --

October 15 or 16, something like that.

Q: Were there Germans already in your village?

A: Oh yes, the Germans were in the village.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah, but I -- I walk in civilian clothing, you know.

Q: Okay.

A: And so I stay home, and shortly after, they find me to join the underground.

Q: Fifteenth or sixteenth of October.

A: Well, that was few days later.

Q: Okay, okay. So not a lot of time. I mean --

A: No.

Q: Okay, so how did that happen? Who found you?

A: Well, I know them from Przemysl. They were active -- well, they tried to

[indecipherable] high school, you know, the Nationalist party. The organizers, you

know, the Nationalist party. And then the -- the governing party, too, we had some -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 52

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

they -- they get there -- they were there before I go -- get home. My mother told me

that this guy was there asking for me, and that he will be back. So, few days later he

came back and -- and I joined the underground. First assignment I had, to organize

places where those officers and soldiers, Polish soldiers, who wants to get to Polish

army, to France, and through Hungary and Romania. Well, Romania was under

Soviet, you have to go to Soviet occupation, and get to Romania, this was

impossible. And here was the piece from the Soviet boundary. San River was the

boundary between Soviet and German oca -- occupation. From the San River -- from

the Soviet occupation, the boundary, there was about 20 - 25 kilometers, direct

boundary with the Hungary, and then was Slovakia, further west.

Q: So you had a window of --

A: Slovakia --

Q: Okay.

A: Slovakia was created by Hitler, so we have a good -- we were on good term with

Slovaks, but they were with Hitler, so some of them will -- were -- was he -- were

helpful -- helpful, but some give the -- to Germans. So that was this -- this piece

where we have direct contact with Hungary, although Hungary were also with

Germany. But there were tradition of friendship between Poland and Hungary.

So, we always had good relation with them. And in this case, they also proved that.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 53

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: So that they were -- so, to get directly -- go in Hungary, you have to gek --

through Slovakia, you have to get through two bo -- boundaries -- two borders.

Q: Okay.

A: -- to Slovakia, and then slo -- from Slovakia to Hungary.

Q: Okay, but you had Poland --

A: Now here is directly.

Q: Direct.

A: Directly to veng -- to hunga -- to Hungary.

Q: So you had a 25 kilometer window --

A: Window.

Q: -- basic --

A: Window.

Q: Yeah.

A: And so my job was to find place pa -- places in the villages where those people

walking there can sleep at night, have lunch or dinner, you know, breakfast and so

on. So because I was just about in [indecipherable] way, between Jarostaw and

Przemysl, and Tarnow, which was the last point when they go across the

boundary, so I--1--- my father have, you know, some -- we got some relatives. So I The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 54

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

have several spots, you know, both ways to -- where they can stop and s -- for night

sleep.

Q: So you were able to do this, you were able to find this?

A: Yes, I were able -- I was able to do, with my father helps. So -- well, I was not the

one they want, they got some other people too, because depends that the distances

and so on. So that was my first assignment. And then this ended in December, end

of December, 1939, because the Gestapo get on the -- in Przemysl. But those

leaders of this thing were, two of them, they escape. They were simply not home

when Gestapo came to pick them up, but couple other people were arrested by the

Gestapo. So, in the very is -- tough winter 1939, very large snow, several feet of

snow was on ta -- on the -- so -- but in -- my ples -- my parents came Professor

Westfall(ph) from -- I remember his name, even, although I saw him once in my

life. He was over 50, and 36 kilometer in this snow rode -- he came 36 kilometer

walking, because there was no other transportation, to tell me that -- to -- to -- to

notify the Sarnok(ph), the -- the end of that -- what happened, and so on. So my job

was there to go to Sarnok(ph), walk again --

Q: So, in other words, he came to your parents" home to let you know of these

arrests by the Gestapo --

A: No, that they were arrested, and we discontinue this.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 55

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: Because there -- there -- the beginning --

Q: Of course.

A: --just to exist, you know.

Q: Okay. So what did -- what was --

A: So I have to go to Sarno(ph) the -- the end of the thing, to notify them what

happened.

Q: So he came to tell you to notify others?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: To--so---so he return back same way, my father give it -- him ride to some part

of -- of the road, and hoping that maybe if somebody else give him -- and then I

walked too. Father gave me some part with -- with horse. And then I walked to

Sarnok(ph) to notify them. Naturally we have code names, and so on, and so --

Q: What was your code name?

A: My -- well, my code name was different. I go to someplace, and I said

something, you know. But my name is in -- in co -- I was not John, I was not

Krawiec, I was Orda(ph).

Q: Orda(ph).

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 56

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Orda(ph).

Q: So that was your suda -- your nom de guerre?

A: Yes.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And then again, when you go somewhere, you have something special, you have

to say something --

Q: A password.

A: Password.

Q: Okay.

A: So I got the password and -- to Sarnok(ph) and drugstore, and from the drugstore

they got -- they give me -- they -- they call the persons I want to.

Q: Okay.

A: So I didn't know the name -- real name of the person, or where they live, or

anything. So then I -- aft -- shortly after, they came to conclusion that because the

Poles have completely cut off the rest of the world, they were German -- allowed to

publish newspaper in Polish language, but there was German propaganda. Now the

Poles have to turn radios. Our -- it just happened that this aristocratic family, thanks

to the connection with aristocratic family in [indecipherable] they have radio. So I

had source of information.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 57

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: First a walk for dinner, and turn the radio [indecipherable] friends surrounded

to London. And I go next day to him and I get the information from him, and we

publi --TI publish bulletin; just sometimes, just one sheet of paper; sometimes two --

four pages. Sometimes is two pages, because it was hard to get the paper.

Q: So you --

A: And they got this [indecipherable] I don't know what is micro -- it was -- you

got special -- not paper, but special plastic something.

Q: Mim-hn, ink.

A: You typed there, on the typewriter, on this instead of paper. And then it was --

you put this, and --

Q: Yeah, you -- you -- you type it up, and then you put paper on it, and -- to make

copies, is this what it is?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: Well, there was special machines, you know. Powielae they called, I don't know

what is the English name for that. And so, it was important, because there were

completely no radio, no newspapers, and what is going on?

Q: Right. So -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 58

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: [indecipherable]

Q: -- were you assigned this task, to --

A: I was assigned by the Polish underground. Well, I want it --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- you know, to -- to begin with.

Q: You're a journalist, yeah.

A: Yeah. I was dreaming to be journalist, you know.

Q: Okay.

A: I started to write [indecipherable]. And so that was -- that was not much

journalist because you just copy -- you just type the news --

Q: Right.

A: -- you know, from radio, and things like that. But anyway, it was something. And

I have couple people helping me from the village there, including my younger

brother, 16 years old. And in August --

Q: So this is going --

A: -- the village became quite -- well, it was practically impossible. One thing, I lost

tons of information, because the German concentrated army of war against Soviet

Union. So the villa in this aristocratic family was taken by the German officers.

Q: Oh, hen -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 59

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- and the family -- the family had kitchen for children, kitchen and two rooms.

Q: This is the aristocratic family that had connections in Austria?

A: They also got radio.

Q: Yeah, got radio.

A: And -- so, in next room was German officer, the pastor cannot turn a radio in

London.

Q: That's right.

A: You know. So I lost [indecipherable] information. So I went to Krakew to

report to my superiors what happened. When I return back, I walk from the -- it was

-- that time there was no buses, all buses, the German liquidated. There -- may -- I

arrived in Shavas(ph), and from Shavas(ph) to Gdynia was narrow gate trains. And

they came at evening, about 10 o'clock, was the train came.

Q: I-I want to interrupt for one minute though -- one second. You say from -- you

were operating this new -- little newsletter from January to August, is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: So that would have made it August 1940.

A: 1940, yeah.

Q: Right. And you're saying the Germans were already preparing to attack the

Soviet Union in August 1940?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 60

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: No, started concentrate the army. They attack "41, in June.

Q: That's right, that's right.

A: But you know, millions of soldiers, they cannot bring in one day. They started

concentration already in August 1940.

Q: I didn't know that. That's interesting to find out. Okay.

A: Yes. Yes. And there's normal, you know.

Q: Yeah, of course.

A: Millions of soldiers, you cannot bring to the front line in one day.

Q: Right.

A: It takes time now, equipment, ammunition, and so on, and so on.

Q: Okay. That i --

A: So they beg -- that's -- they started already in August 1940.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah. And so, when I return back from Krakow, I learn that Gestapo was there

to -- want talk to me. And -- well, I didn't want to talk to them. And my parents n --

Q: You didn't?

A: And my parents knew that too, because when I walked to the door, it was the

evening, at night, and when I walked to the door, my father opened the door and

says, your things are together in a suitcase, get out.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 61

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Really?

A: Yeah, well they know what was going on.

Q: Okay.

A: And they were not educated people, but they smart - my mother was -- she got

seven c-classes of grammar school, so it was much more than most of the people

there. And -- but they know, you know, what was going on and -- and s -- so this was

beginning of my being runner now, you know. So I get --

Q: Beginning of your living underground, in other words.

A: Underground. So, the organization gave me identification card on different

name. From that time on, I became Jan Sobchuk(ph), born in Rodinka(ph), county

of Stanislavov(ph), which was under Soviet occupation, so German cannot check

that. And I move not too far away, and start again, continue this pu-publication of

this bul-bulletin.

Q: So you got another source of information?

A: Not -- another s-source of information, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: I got another source of information, plus once in a ewa -- once in a while I get

from Warsaw a courier, some lady, usually a woman came with some blo --

newspapers publishing in Warsaw, so give me viewpoints -- wider viewpoint on The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 62

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

situation. And I got friends from military not far away, who had this source of

information. They hide a radio, and they also has little bulletin for the local

consume -- consumption. So I was that -- then I get sick, so I stopped that. They took

over, those friends of mine, and when I get back to help, I decided to join the

guerilla units. I got military sar -- military background, and so I went to Warsaw to

report that --

Q: When you say you get back to health, what does that mean?

A: I was sick for -- I get beginning of tuberculosis. And so it was long -- a long time

before I get back to normal.

Q: And did you -- were you publishing that little -- that newspaper, what you were

writing while you were sick?

A: No, no.

Q: No. Okay, okay. And where were you living?

A: I was living not too far, in the village.

Q: In the village.

A: In the village, not too far from my village.

Q: Okay.

A: About three -- you know, the people were very friendly. Can depend on the

people in the villages -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 63

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: -- at least in this part of Poland, southern part. Yo-You didn -- didn't have to

know them, you can tell where cases that the guerrillas left -- had somebody

wounded, and yet run away from the forest, and leave the wounded somewhere, and

they cannot stay with, or carry him, because daytime, and the Germans were --

Q: Looking, yeah.

A: -- searching, you know. So they leave somewhere in the village. They were sure

that person will be there when they came next day to pick him up.

Q: So that meant that nobody would betray this person.

A: No.

Q: Okay.

A: No, it was -- this -- as far as this part is concerned, we were really amazing

people. There were some traitors, like everywhere. You always have some black

sheeps, and that.

Q: So tell me about when you decided to join the guerrilla -- guerrilla activities,

what did that involve?

A: Well -- well -- well -- well they -- I get a week, you know, to go and say goodbye

to my parents in France and so on [inaudible]. So I went, get to Jarostaw where I

have friend and in this friend, I stay there for days, and I have my belongings there, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 64

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

and his wife wash my shir-shirts, and so on. So -- and there was my station, you

know. And so -- so I get to there and I-- morning, I -- his wife should go to my

parents, make arrangements when and where we can meet, and i-in meantime, I

decided to go to Przemy%l, it was just about a kilometer, and to say goodbye to my

first love, you know. And I didn't get there.

Q: You didn't get there?

A: No. I get on the station, and waiting in line to get to ticket, this 30 kilometer, you

know, to Przemysl, and get the ticket, and suddenly I felt some heavy arm on my

shir -- shoulders here. I look; two Ges-Gestapo guys grab my arms, put handcuffs,

hit me in the face from one side, from the other side. I supposed to keep balance,

you know, from both side I get, and kick me, and walk me out. And I know ya--I

know Jarostaw, I was in military, very small town. At that time it was not even

20,000 people. And they took over apartment building opened just before the war in

deg38, I believe. And they kick out all the tenants and owners, and took this over, and

they have offices there. They walk me there to basement, and you know, each

tenant had the space in the basement, storage room, you know.

Q: That's right.

A: So, because they got, for winter the coal, there's some -- some fruits for winter.

They prepare in Poland, you know, for winter. So th -- each one has a storage room.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 65

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

So they change those storage, the -- the wooden walls they make concrete walls,

concrete floors, steel door, and make cells. They walk me into one of those cells.

There was a hook in the ceiling. They took the -- took the handcuffs off, and tied my

arms in the back with -- with rope, and put this over this hook, pulling me up so I

was hanging on my arms in the back, not touching floor.

Q: Oh my gosh.

A: Yeah. It was painful, believe me. And they walk f-- they went to lunch, because

it was the lunchtime. So that was -- when they ge --

Q: So you were hung like a piece of meat.

A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not touching floor. It was painful. You know, I had the --

Q: Your arms like that?

A: --arms like that, yeah, and the time goes on, you know, it was painful.

Q: Your arm -- your sockets -- arm sockets and so --

A: Yeah, yeah. So when they came back -- I don't know how long time -- how long

time -- how long they were, and took me down, I was half conscious. So they put the

handcuffs back in my -- my arms in handcuffs in the back, and walk me upstairs,

and th -- we got instruction from the underground, that if you speak -- understand

Germans, don't say. They have to give you interpreter, so I will have little time to The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 66

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

figure out the lie, a good lie, you know. And so this is what happened. I had

German in s -- in high school.

Q: So you understood.

A: So I understood. I said no, so they give interpreter. And besides that, and this

guy who -- it happened it was deputy chief of the Gestapo who handled my case. He

got somebody to help him. So they all were armed with wooden stick. I was sitting

on floor, handcuffs in the back, sitting on floor, and they were helping me answer --

Q: The questions.

A: -- the questions, helping me, you know, beating my back, anyplace that, you

know --

Q: They could find.

A: -- they wanted, you know.

Q: Yeah.

A: And that was going on from lunchtime until dark. That was May 22, so the day

is long.

Q: Nineteen fo -- 1941?

A: Three.

Q: Oh, 1943.

A: Forty-three, yes, because I was on the go, I was sick, I-- so I-- so that's 1943.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 67

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay, so you had been really in the underground for -- for three years.

A: Just about, yeah.

Q: Three years, yeah. A long time.

A: So finally they change it up for dinner, somebody else came.

Q: They changed shifts.

A: Shifts, you know, but I was just all the time sitting on floor --

Q: What were they asking you?

A: They asking many questions, and among those questions came one quite often,

Sarzyna. Sarzyna, | know it is a village, a railroad station for local trains, not far

away from this, about three -- third or fourth station from this town Jarostaw. So

this is all what I know, nothing else. But quite often this Sarzyna came.

Q: Did they know your real name?

A: No, I--I have false -- I di-- they got my LD., ja-- Jan Sobchuk(ph), born in --

under Soviet occupation that -- well now they occupied this territory, so they can

check that. So it was -- don't cover me any more. So and I don't know what time it

was, but it was dark already, May 22"4, so day is long. When he hit me here on the

right side, on this right side of the head.

Q: [indecipherable] head.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 68

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: And I faint, first time in my life. So they dump some cold water on my face,

keep me in -- drag me down to the same cell I was hanged before, and threw me into

cell.

Q: Did they string you up again?

A: No, just --

Q: They just left you there.

A: -- took -- just threw me in so I fell down floor, was concrete floor, and I don't

know, I sleep, or I was lo-losing consciousness because I was waking up, and down.

You know, I--I don't know what happened. All day next, I remember just that I

was -- sometimes I wa -- a -- awake.

Q: Okay.

A: And I feel thirsty, I was thirsty, not hungry, but thirsty. And so na -- night again,

and next day brought -- brought me breakfast. And after breakfast they walk me

upstairs to the same room I was there interrogation, same people. And -- but they

don't -- before, they don't ask me even to sit down on floor, like this you -- you get

to the -- and some military sergeant from milit --- German military walk, and look at

me and told no. So I don't know what was going on. And after that, they took me

back down to the same cell, and shortly after, four other prisoners, they brought The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 69

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

four prisoners. And one of them was in much worse shape than I was, you know,

beat and wounds, broken. Back he had broken like -- he had cut across --

Q: His back.

A: --the muscle, you know. And that was -- that was -- he was in pain because that

was infected. So all the time -- fi-fi-finally it broke out, so he got little relief for day

or so, and it t-turn over again. And so he walk in and he says pardon me

[indecipherable] you know, you re -- you remind me somebody.

Q: This man who had been so tortured --

A: Beaten and tortured.

Q: -- beaten. Okay.

A: But he says, we cannot -- I cannot talk because this guy at the door, he is with

them. So, when they took this guy to deliver food in -- to prisoners, you know, in

other cells, he told me, you remind -- you look like Polish ranger from Sarzyna who

two or three weeks before, shoot and kill the deputy chief of the Gestapo, in

Jarowstaw, from Jarowstaw. District of Jarowstaw. So that was the explanation. I

just look -- happened to look like this guy who shoot this chief of the gest -- this is

the reason they torture me so badly, because they thought that I am the guy who

killed deputy chief of the Gestapo, you know.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 70

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: And so this -- this man who had been so tortured, thought that y -- do you think

he has been the one who identified you?

A: No.

Q: No. Okay.

A: No, no, he don't even identify me. He told me just that I look like --

Q: Got it.

A: -- like him, you know.

Q: I understand now. I understand.

A: And now -- so I know that, and the -- just that they're saying -- next day or so, we

were in the cell, and we hear beating somebody -- somebody c-crying, you know.

Q: Sc -- right, screaming.

A: --and screaming, and they dragged somebody -- and across our cell, was -- was

storage, empty storage for coal for winter.

Q: Right.

A: So in June it was empty. So they drag him there, and they were pounding him

there, and he is screaming; his moan, it was weaker and weaker. So finally they

drag him out. And shortly after, that was si-six o'clock, or seven o'clock, they bring

us something to eat. So this guy went to deliver the food, and when the Gestapo guy The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

Interview with John Krawiec "

January 29, 2015

opened the door, he was sweat, and says this: he was strong Pole. He got 300 lashes,

and he is still alive. So this is all what -- how -- how they counted, I don't know.

Q: Okay.

A: But anyway -- but next morning this guy went to deliver breakfast, and he said

that when he return that he help get the body out, he died during the night, this guy.

So after that -- you know, I got here false identification. Now they will check,

because they occupy this territory. So next problem is [indecipherable] next day

they call me up. And again, sitting on the floor, pounding. He threw this

identification card in my face, and he says [indecipherable] who are you? And

again, we had story with my family and my friends and my relatives, that I dated

some girl, and father don't like that. And we quarrel with father on that. And one

day after quarrel I pick up my things and I walk away.

Q: Okay.

A: They don't know what happened to. So I told this story -- oh I -- they did check

later, but probably they didn't believe it, because they keep me there, and ev -- I

went through about four interrogation, or five. And the new prisoners, they walk in,

they ask sa -- they got my picture, they took my -- they didn't get my pictures, I was

again instruction, if we'll got pictures, get away. And shortly before I--1--I was

arrested, I took all the pictures, including the pictures wi-with my diploma, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 72

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

graduation from high school. Matura, you know [indecipherable] with the picture.

I took this away to some relatives far away. So they didn't had any pictures, but

they make pictures, and they sh -- there's -- new prisoners walk in, and -- and I -- and

they tell me, oh -- because [indecipherable]

Q: Who is this?

A: -- they show me your pictures, you know.

Q: Okay.

A: --I know you. Well, nobody there -- from them knew me, because I was not

working in this territory, I was little further away.

Q: Okay.

A: So nobody knew me from the underground in this part of the town -- of the

county.

Q: Okay. So --

A: So this is --

Q: I have a --I have a--a question that I want to clear up. When you said you

already had a story made up, of you -- a story made up that you had quarreled with

your father because of a girl --

A: Yeah, yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 73

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: -- and you said they go to check that story. Do they go to check that with your

real father?

A: Yes.

Q: So then --

A: I didn't know about that, I learned that about the war --

Q: Okay.

A: -- when -- when we were finding --

Q: You learned that much later. Much, much --

A: Yes, I learned that much later, that when [indecipherable]

Q: So then they knew your -- they knew your real name by that point?

A: Well, I have to tell them.

Q: Okay.

A: [have to tell them this is the reason.

Q: This is the reason I have a pseudonym, and this is my real name, and this is --

okay, okay.

A: [indecipherable] he throw this false thi -- who are you?

Q: Okay.

A: Because they know already that this is false identification.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 74

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Got it. And so your -- your -- your job is to be able to say, the reason I have false

identification has nothing to do with underground.

A: No.

Q: It has to do with a girl.

A: What you did for living. Black market. It was concentration camp from black

market.

Q: Okay.

A: Now, where you sleep last night -- because they arrested me in st -- railroad

station before noon.

Q: Okay.

A: And a woman [indecipherable] and the interpreter, who was German from

Jarostaw, and he knew -- he told him, don't try it. It is a Polish culture to protect

women, especially in situation like sh-she is his lover, not wife or -- or -- and so you

won't get anything from him, because this is a Polish culture, and he won't tell.

Q: He won't -- he won't tell you about the woman, yeah.

A: Tell you about the woman, a-address and and so on, you know [indecipherable]

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 75

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- you know, was -- life was really -- they say the -- this Chinese curse bids you to

live in an interesting time, and I did. And not just an interesting, but very

dangerous, even.

Q: Yes. So you say you were interrogated four times?

A: Four or five times, I don't recall now. And the last time they send me to jail in

Tarnow. Well, first to j -- to jail over there, by the cour -- by the new court building,

in basement. There were about five or six of us, and we were there for about a

week.

Q: Okay.

A: And that was a cell in the basement, no nothing, just concrete and brick, only

small light -- electric light in the corner. And there were some fellows from

Jarostaw, and they -- they know and they tell you s -- you know what? We are in

death cell. Death cell. Before the war, those sentenced to death spend their last days

of their [indecipherable] in this cell. But there was the -- th -- it was not a big jail, it

was just jail by the sa -- court. So it was -- Ukrainian was -- fellow was the guard,

you know. And to our surprise, next morning, you know, early in the morning -- we

didn't know what time because we don't have even window, you know, to see --

Q: Right.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 76

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- was dark or not. So you open the door, and walk us on the yard. There was a

pump, and si-- no, water.

Q: Okay.

A: So we grabbed to wash ourselves, you know, little, and so on, have some fresh

air. And he was watching if the Gestapo does not come. Ukrainian fellow, you

know. And this happened for a week. So if somebody -- I know the Ukrainians were

bandits and so on, but -- they murdered many people. But they were not -- not all --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- that is -- always -- generalization is always wrong.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: And here was a Ukrainian fellow --

Q: Who was allowing you to get some air and some --

A: Air and wash, and he watch if the Gestapo is not coming. And in our -- in his

signal we should -- supposed to run fast back down to cells, and he will walk like

the doors, and everything be fine.

Q: How long did you stay there?

A: And -- I don't know, about a week or so. And then the jail in Tarnow.

Q: Okay.

A: I spend there, I don't know, five, six weeks, seven weeks.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 77

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: So they didn't let you go?

A: No.

Q: Even though -- even --

A: No, no.

Q: Okay.

A: And -- but interesting story was on the way from the -- one day, they came -- the

Gestapo came and they handcuff my left arm with right arm another fellow, another

prisoner, and there was six of us, I think. Yeah. Three pairs, and one woman. And

the woman was wife of this ranger who shoot and killed this deputy chief of the

Gestapo.

Q: Wow.

A: She was arrested, and she was there. And so she was very attractive woman, as a

matter of fact. And so naturally the Gestapo guy we-were, you know, talking to her,

and so on.

Q: Did they know of her connection?

A: Well, they arrested her in the home. He -- they came to arrested him, and he was

not home.

Q: So they took her.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 78

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: --r-ranger [indecipherable] ranger, he was in the forest. And he was coming

back for lunch, and he -- they just get married about week ago, and so she was with

her mother at home. And the Gestapo came to arrest him. He was not home, so they

-- they searched the house. They went upstairs, there were a couple room upstairs.

So they -- one room was locked, the door were locked. So they came down to get

keys. She said, I don't know. I'm here just few days, I don't know what is there --

where are the keys. So they break the doors, and here was the arsenal of guns,

ammunition and so on. What happened? Not too far away [indecipherable] was --

before the war, they built -- Polish government start to build -- it's supposed to be

factory of dynamite you know, any things like that. They didn't finish that, but there

were some already building ready -- some building were even built, and there was

part of forest, you know, surrounded by barbed wires fence, and because it -- it

would be material --

Q: Right.

A: So the Germans decided to use this facility for the ammunition and arm they get

on the Soviet front. It was not far from the Soviet border. So, Soviet front. So they

were bringing all the ammunition and guns, whatever they get that, over there. They

got the military units, and they got this Polish -- this -- there was ye -- before the war

they had young teenagers, at least 16 or 17 years old, they had about two years or The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 719

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

three years. They were e-even un-uni -- uniform. It -- in wintertime, they got

schools, you know. If they -- somebody didn't finish grammar school, or had some

grammar, first years of high school, things like that, they had -- on summer months

they work on some -- building roads, or something like that. So they had this unit,

Polish boys, and they were -- among them, there were Poles who were, you know, in

some ranks. One of them was from this village, and he was like corporal. And one --

he was from the -- from Baltic Sea, territory which were, before the war, in

Germany; par -- then was part of Poland, and he speak very well Germans, and he

was like one a -- one rank higher.

Q: Okay.

A: That is important because -- it came later. And so, this ranger nearby, yes, he was

also speaking very well Germans, so he got friendly with the German military,

which surrendered that, and -- and at the gates, you know, everybody walk in and

out, they search, and you get -- you can get in, you know, you got special permit,

and things like that. So but here, part of the li -- forest there, so he got -- they let him

go, he brought some whiskey, so they drink together, and so on. So he walk in and

out. And he carry -- and because you never know what kind of weather you're

gonna have. You can have rain. So he got some blankets, you know

[indecipherable] on the arms, some coat or something, with rubbers.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 80

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Mim-hm, raincoat.

A: Yeah, raincoat. And so [indecipherable] so he could carry -- and under his thing

he carry, you know, stuff out from -- through there.

Q: Oh, so he would carry ammunition out through his raincoat.

A: Under -- under --

Q: Dur -- under the raincoat.

A: Raincoat.

Q: Okay.

A: And loaded there, and this went to --

Q: To the house?

A: And here is -- and here is the story -- it could be film.

Q: Okay.

A: Lived not far away, in little town, the Gestapo arrested -- one of the Polish

underground was arrested, and break down, and give up name of some 10 or 12

people. Some of them were in -- he should -- normally, he would not know, really.

Q: Right.

A: Because there were three or five, no more --

Q: Right.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

Interview with John Krawiec ia

January 29, 2015

A: -- groups. But he sup -- he thinks that oh, some others, oh, some belong. So 10 or

12 people were arrested, and put in jail in this town, small town. And the jail -- the

guards were Ukrainian nationals, working together with Germans. And the

underground [indecipherable] about it, lived not far away, and they decided in first

action to te -- tonight get them out. If they don't take them for night, get them out

from jail. Because if they take -- take them to Rzeszew [indecipherable] where is

military and the Gestapo, and German police and so on, is impossible. But here they

can do it, because they got only this Ukrainian guards. And so they get this -- get

those Ukrainians lock in one of the cells, get all these prisoners out. And they get

death sentence for this guy who give the names of all others. So they get him out of

the jail, near forest, and shoot him. And this moment, alarm from Rzeszow, cars are

going. That was night. So, no Poles have a car -- car, so they knew it was Germans.

So, alarm, and they ran into forest with the prisoners, and this guy was left there.

And it just happened he was not killed, he was -- he lost conscious -- consciousness,

but was still alive. And when the Germ -- Gestapo arrived, find out what happened,

and find him, they put him in car, rush him to Rzeszew, and to hospital, and get

somebody there of their own people to stay with him, and tell doctor to get him par

-- do everything possible to get him for -- back consciousness, you know. So they

want to ask him who did, because he knew.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 82

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: Probably. So this is what happened. And this guy, before he lost -- he gained

consciousness for a moment, and they ask him who, and he says one word,

Miaska(ph). Well, they know that the ammunition was losed in this action, was

Russian ammunition. And this Russian ammunition is this -- in this camp, which

belonged to Gestapo Bialystok. This is Gestapo Rzeszew. So they contact

Jarostaw that from this camp just -- was just ammunition here, so you got

somebody who carry out this ammunition to Polish underground. So -- and they got

Miaska(ph). So get [indecipherable] in Jarostaw, get to the camp, to this camp

where this ammunition and so on. And here they look the list of this Polish workers

there, and here is Corporal Miaska(ph). So they arrested him. But they get him

back, and when the Gestapo raise hands, he grab on knees, and cry and tell them

everything what they -- what he knew, what he think, and everything else. So they

came to conclusion that this can't be this guy, you know, leader of the underground

group --

Q: Cause he talks too much.

A: He was afra -- scared, you know. I know ye --I was with him in cell for several

weeks later. So they came to conclusion that it can be something wrong, but he has

a brother, older brother, who was in cadet school for reserve officers in Polish army.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 83

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

So they came to conclusion that this -- his brother was the commander of the unit

with -- who get this --

Q: Ammunit --

A: -- ar-arrested out. So they went to arrest brother, but brother was not at home

already. He knew what happen and what can happen, so he ran away. But the -- they

keep this guy. But he give -- about 10 or 12 people were arrested because of him.

One of them was this Antic(ph), this guy who told me when I was arrested, when he

walked in the cell, that he -- that he -- I remind him somebody -- you know.

Q: Right.

A: So one of them was arrested. He was this -- one rank higher than this Jazga(ph).

And so he was beaten -- he was shoot few days later. They took him in morning to --

to -- early --

Q: And then shot him.

A: Shot him, yeah. And so this is the way, you know, things -- because we're nice

film, interesting film, to g-go all those ways, to get --

Q: So you -- yeah, so you're talking -- you eventually are taken to prison where the

wife of the ranger who actually shot -- the ranger who shot the vice-deputy of the

gesta --

A: No, I was taken as a ranger.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 84

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: Because I look like ranger.

Q: Okay.

A: And his wife was arrested, and she was in different ce-cell, but we get together --

I--I happened to notice [indecipherable] when they took us all on railroad station,

we waited -- wait for train to go to Tarnow, to [indecipherable] in Tarnow.

Q: Okay.

A: And here -- we are waiting in train, and here came my cousin's wife, my cousin

from Gdynia, came out, he was name Krawiec and also profession Krawiec, he

was good ka -- ka -- tailor --

Q: Okay.

A: --in Gdynia. But he was kick out when they took over Gdynia.

Q: That means when everybody was emptied out from Gdynia, when everybody

was forced to leave --

A: Yes, the Poles were kick out and the Germans were settled there.

Q: Okay.

A: And so he lef--he get apartment in Jarostaw, in some -- in the -- three or four

floors building, he was on second or third floor, across the railroad station in

Jarostaw. So, his wife saw -- he was downstairs, pick up something, and he -- she The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 85

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

saw when they walk us to the station from Gestapo. And she ran up to my brother,

my brother was there to bring parcels for me, in the Gestapo. We -- we can get

parcels, but we get only personal belongings. Food and everything else was for all

per -- per -- persons, you know.

Q: Okay.

A: A-All p-prisoners.

Q: Okay.

A: And so -- so they walk on the station, because he was going home two station,

and then to pick up the narrow -- narrow gate train to home. And they walk sta --

toward me. And I asked the Gestapo, that is my brother, can I -- and this woman,

you know, she told him -- she speak -- she was good in German, she, oh let him,

young, we -- you see a little boy he is -- so he --

Q: He said okay.

A: Okay. So my brother, my as -- this cou -- cousin's wife stay away, but ma -- my

brother came. He was 12 years old at that time. And he was coming, he saw me,

you know, with the handcuffs, and I was all -- I was white, you know, all summer in

basement, and tortures and so on, and not -- malnutrition and skinny. So he come in

and he [indecipherable] sees, he just -- he crying. I told him, Zbyszek(ph), don't

cry. And he -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 86

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Oh, and he tries not to.

A: He didn't, he didn't, he --

Q: He didn't.

A: No, he didn't. And then the train arrive, and she [indecipherable] I can stay -- go

just to Przemysl, two station. So he got out, so the brother, my brother sitting on --

across from me, and I was on this side on -- across me, two station. And then in

Przemysl he have to go. So he get out -- the pr -- train stop, he get out. A lot of

people were waiting on train. And he jump out. And later, after the war he told me

that when he jump out, they tau -- they saw, Gestapo through the window, you

know, the hats and so on. So they thou -- they thought that he escape. So they run

around him, you know, s-so -- to protect him. The people on the station, you know,

waiting for trains.

Q: So they were -- they were -- they saw the Gestapo, and they were trying to protect

your brother.

A: Yeah, they saw it -- they saw through the window, you know, Gestapo guys, with

hats.

Q: Right.

A: And so when he jump from this doors, you know, they thought that he escape.

Q: That he's a prisoner who's escaping as well.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 87

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: He escape, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: And so it --

Q: Talk about solidarity.

A: Oh yes, yeah. That was --

Q: But you see, I want to understand. You were telling me the story of the people

who were released from this prison, because somebody had given their names, and I

didn't understand the significance of the story. I thought it was connected to the

wife of the man who shot that Gestapo person, because they found munitions

upstairs in -- in -- in his house, when they broke down the locked door.

A: Yeah.

Q: And so you were telling me -- was the significance that -- that those munitions

had been brought -- you know, stolen from these depos where -- where -- where they

were located by the underground, and that was --

A: No-

Q: No.

A: -- it was stolen from the depo these were Germans brought it.

Q: I know, I know -- no, I know, I know, were Germans.

A: And this -- this ranger, he steal those things, carry under this -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 88

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Raincoat.

A: -- raincoat --

Q: Okay.

A: -- you know.

Q: And his name was Miaska(ph)?

A: No, his name was -- I don't remember. I don't know his name.

Q: It wasn't that one. Okay.

A: Miaska(ph), it was one of this -- he was a corporal --

Q: Okay.

A: --in this camp, in the war [indecipherable] you know, this -- and his brother --

Q: Was underground.

A: -- was -- was the leader of the group of the underground, of the guerilla unit,

which freed those prisoners.

Q: Okay.

A: His brother.

Q: Got it. Got it. So where were you taken?

A: I was taken to Tarnow, to [indecipherable] in Tarnew, and I spend there a few

weeks. And then, from Tarnow, they took me to Auschwitz. And that was a

interesting stories, too. We get from cells, in the hole in the jail, a large jail, built The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 89

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

be-between the wars by Polish government. And it was a whole [indecipherable]

from cells, to several -- three, four story building. They were bringing one, two, you

know, prisoners and we stay at that. And here I met some friends, who were, you

know, in those cells, you know. We don't see each other for years, you know, some

of them.

Q: And there you are, yeah.

A: And -- and then we -- they took us to the railroad station, and we get to Tarnow.

And in Tarnow -- from Tarnow to -- to Auschwitz-Birkenau. I get to Auschwitz-

Birkenau; Auschwitz zwei -- Auschwitz II-Birkenau.

Q: I want to -- before we go there, I want to understand. So the Germans didn't

release you, but it doesn't sound like they had any evidence against you.

A: They don't need.

Q: Okay.

A: There were mass execution of Poles. There were execution, for example, first

mass exe-execution was in Christmas day, 1939, in Wavver(ph), near Warsaw.

Day before, at evening, in a tavern, criminals, Polish -- for murder, I don't know for

what he was in jail, but when war break out, and the -- and Polish army withdrew

from the town, they opened the jail because they didn't want to leave people locked

in -- in jail, you know. So -- so -- and the Germans announce that all those who were The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 90

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

freed have to return back -- report back to jail. Well, he didn't. And he was in the

tavern, and they got -- some of them, they got pictures, you know. He must be some

murderer or something, because those big criminals, they have pictures. And they

have the pictures s-somewhere, and he was in the tavern, and German policemen

walk in and no -- and recognize him.

Q: Okay.

A: And want to arrest him. And this guy was armed, and killed the po --- German

policeman. Well -- [phone ringing]

Q: Okay [break] Okay, so you were talking that you were transported to

Auschwitz-Birkenau.

A: Yeah.

Q: But before we get there, I want -- oh, and then you were telling me about mass

executions of Poles --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- and that a Polish criminal had shot a policeman.

A: Yeah, and next -- next morning, they came to the town, get all people -- small

town, it was some -- at that time, it was, I don't know, fi-- 1500 of people or

something. Suburb of Warsaw -- building, it was new one. And get out, and pick up

hundred young men, and in front of the family, they shoot them, as a revenge for The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

Interview with John Krawiec *

January 29, 2015

this one German was killed by Pole. And that happened in many other instances,

like that.

Q: So you're saying it didn't matter that they had no evidence against you.

A: Oh no, there was no need of evidence. They pick up people in train, for example.

I was couple times, but my false identification helped me. And false identification

that I worked somewhere there. In Radom, about 10 o'clock at evening, the train

from Warsaw to Krakow, and I was in the train. The train stop in Radom, the both

sides of the tr-tracks were policemen, the Polish blue policemen, and German

policemen, and the Gestapo line up on both side, all people out. And they walked

through the wag -- the cars, and make sure that everybody get out. And they walk us

to some school, on outskirts of the town, and next day they have Gestapo, and

somebody else they got, they check and they release those who are working in the

town, because Radom has factories, armament factories, so the --- many people

work before the war, so the Germans naturally used that -- worked there. So the --

and then -- well, I was hesitated what to do, I was not sure if my identification card

will be good enough, you know. So, there were people as -- still some people left.

And there was one Polish woman who was --- she claimed that -- well, they pe -- they

-- she is prostitute, she got -- she got the, you know, card that she is prostitute. Well,

she got [indecipherable] she got child. Her husband is in -- in -- in camp, you know, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 92

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

prisoners of war camp. And so -- well, by evening I came to conclusion that I have

to -- cause there was a Polish policeman, this blue policeman also sit -- standing in

the -- there was like a hall on the other side, was a room on both side of the rooms. I

was in one room, and the -- in the middle they got like desk, and there was G-G-

German -- Gestapo and so on. There was the Germans -- Gestapo, and also the

Polish priest. And so I talked to her, I gived her some money, and that's so she will

go to -- get to this German policeman, this Gestapo guy, get with him and nice --

Q: Friendly, mm-hm.

A: -- friendly. And in meantime, I ran out of the room. I know this Polish policeman

wouldn't -- so, naturally they opened the door, was slide from the room, in the dark,

on the out. So naturally I didn't walk --

Q: Right.

A: -- around straight, but to the side so that they won't see me. They shoot, but then

I jump at the fence and get -- but there was poli -- eight o'clock, police hour.

Nobody can be on street.

Q: Curfew, yeah.

A: You know. So -- and I hear from the corner the policemen, two policemen arrive

far -- not close, but far away already, walk on the street. So, it was restaurant, so in

night the door around to thi-- this restaurant, but it was locked. But I got -- I was -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 93

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

and door open, and was woman. Polish woman, Polish restaurant. And she opened

the door and --

Q: Let you in.

A: Yes, first in, you know, close the door. And so she said, I hope that they won't --

they don't see me, or --

Q: Right.

A: -- walking in, or something, because they were shooting, but nobody follow me --

Q: Right.

A: -- because I disappear in darkness, and I turn, you know, street into another

street, and -- and so they were having a dinner, full dinner [indecipherable] They

have another English name.

Q: But -- but why were these people taken from the train in Radom? Why -- was it

just a -- a random --

A: They just -- that was -- those who were working for important ni -- German

industry, were release of orders, went. Those not educated went to work on farm, or

in the factories in Germany. Educated usually to concentration camp.

Q: I see. So you're saying it was all random.

A: All random.

Q: Random.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 94

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: There was no -- you don't have to be anybody, that you can be anybody if you --

educated people were sure concentration camp.

Q: Now, one question I didn't ask before; during the three years you were in the

underground --

A: Yeah.

Q: What did you see of what was going on with the Jews?

A: Well, I see ghettos.

Q: Okay.

A: Well, at the beginning, first was -- here I got some interesting point. When I

started this bu -- bulletin, to post the bulletin, well, it was problem to get paper --

news -- regular paper, type -- typewritten paper, you know, for -- for this. And so I

went to Rzeszow, | had friend in the village, across to Rzeszew, the town over

20,000 people. And I says, well, I need -- PrzemySl was closer, but Przemysl the

more -- majority of the town, and this old town, and the business town part of the

town was under Soviet occupation, and the German occupation was smaller and

more just residential part. So only Rzeszow was there. So [indecipherable] and we

went to Rzeszow, and to -- because he was in high school in Rzeszew, so to the

store, where he bought, when he was in high school, you know, par -- papers and

pencils and whatever he needed.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 95

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Mm-hm, supplies.

A: And that was a ze -- Jewish store --

Q: Okay.

A: -- Jew owner sa -- Jew owned the store. So we went to him, and so I pick up -- I

have my bicycle, I cannot so -- allow too much, but I pick up two or three, so I can

put on so -- like without di -- giving me trouble --

Q: Right.

A: -- using balance. I pick up, and I want pay, and this Jewish fellow says, I think I

know for what is that, I won't take money. Yeah, honestly. And I get from him

later, they close him, the store. So he carries some the stuff to -- back. So before

they lock the ba -- ghetto, so we walk -- I walk with my friend to him, he got in the

back, in his kitchen. And so I always get how -- how long he had something, I get

the paper without money. He didn't took money.

Q: And what happened to him? Do you know?

A: Well, he was in ghetto. I suppose they all get killed.

Q: Mm-hm. Did your activities ever take you into the ghetto? Did you have any

assignments?

A: No, you can't get into ghetto if you don't ga -- have special permission.

Q: Mm-hm. Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 96

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: You have special permission. Is Irene Sendler --

Q: Yes, the name, yeah.

A: --na--- you know, you -- familiar name. About 2500 children she -- with her

friends, carry out. But she has permission. She was working in the city as a social

worker and nurse, I think. And I think she got permission to check if they don't

have somethi -- typhus or any -- some diseases.

Q: Diseases.

A: The Germans were very afraid of contagious di-diseases, to spread.

Q: So did bu-but you never got any assignments from the underground --

A: No.

Q: -- that would -- no.

A: No assignment, what can we have, assignment in the un -- in ghetto? What can

we do?

Q: Food? No. No.

A: That -- this -- food, that is have to be carry through the -- through the --

Q: Through the --

A: That was a special units, if they can handle that.

Q: When you're in a guerilla unit, it's a different story then.

A: Well, I--- I want to be, I was not, because I was arrested before I get there.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 97

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Got it, got it. So --so you saw the -- you saw how Jews were in ghettos?

A: Oh yes. We know what was going on because we got the information, for

example, from those people who got permit to go there. They -- they get out, and in

underground press, information about -- there were some pictures of children dying

on street, especially in wintertime. Frost and not dressed w-warm, and so on. So we

know the condition in the ghetto very well. But it -- it was locked, and it was

surrounded by wall, and barbed wires on top of the brick wall.

Q: Which ghettos did you see, from which towns?

A: Well, from Warsaw.

Q: Oh, you saw the Warsaw ghetto?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah, I was quite often in Warsaw because the underground business take me

there, and -- and I was in different -- I stay always -- most of the time in different

places, because -- to -- so the -- the -- they don't follow us.

Q: Mm-hm. What about Soviet activity? Did you hear much of what was going on

in the Soviet part of Poland?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 98

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: We know very well what was going on during ocup -- occupation, because in

spite of all this security the Soviets have, we still have some Poles who sneak

through and get on the German side. So we knew very well.

Q: Okay.

A: Matter of fact, I myself, with special assignment, I cross the river at night on the

other side, and I was lucky to get through and get to whom they send me. And then,

two or three days later, get back on the German side.

Q: So you crossed the river San?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. What kind of assignment was that?

A: That was dealing with espionage.

Q: But is -- can you tell me any details?

A: Well, by -- you know, as I said, I was a little devil, so I didn't -- in this

underground, wint -- well, that was December -- yeah, December 1939. Before --

before I start this ne -- bu-bulletin, I was in Przemysl with -- he was second in

command in the underground, is from army in this county. And it just happens that

his younger sister, my -- was my first love.

Q: The one that you had wanted to say goodbye to.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 99

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Yes. And so I--I was there in December, and he introduced me -- it was a major

from Rzesz6w, introduced me ma -- Major Ruskaivich(ph) was his name, Stanley,

from Rzeszew. And Major Ruskaivich(ph) has a unit -- has espionage unit, besides

the Polish underground, independent from this. Well, he told me it is the Polish

underground corps, and the espionage cooperating with British. And the British

agent who is in charge of all that, he's on the Soviet side in PrzemySl, under

condition that he share with Soviets, the information, you know. So fine, because

they know that we were strongly anti-communist, anti-Soviet. So he know he was

afraid -- so -- and he need me. And so I started to be part of this espionage business,

in between, between -- before I started to publish the paper, again, and so on. And so

I have some friends from military, various parts. So I traveled to them -- he got

money, so -- I need money to live, so that was a good set-up for me, because I get

money to live.

Q: So anyway, this Ruskaivich(ph) would send you to the Soviet part --

A: No, no, no, at --

Q: No, no.

A: -- he --I join his espionage --

Q: Right.

A: -- organization.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 100

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Right.

A: And so I was important for him, because I got some friends from military, young

fellows, here and there, various places, and -- for example, in Stalowa Wola, this

was new factory, near town built ar-around -- around military factories producing

armaments, and -- and so on. So, I get money to travel to those fa -- fellows. Then I

pick up the information from him, and once a month we get together. He lived with

her sister in Rzesz6w, and we sit together.

Q: And you talked to him.

A: No, not talk, we -- we put in -- how you call that?

Q: In sa -- in code?

A: In code.

Q: You put the information in --

A: -- put all this information in code.

Q: -- information in code, okay.

A: And then, I don't know, he deliver somewhere, and somebody deliver on the

other side.

Q: You mean to the sov -- to the Soviet side.

A: To the -- of this major -- British major --

Q: Oh.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 101

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- you know. That was --

Q: So in other words, you were ca -- you were collecting information for the British,

but they were sharing it with the Soviets.

A: This is what he -- what -- that is what is -- was the story, you know.

Q: Okay.

A: And here, that was few months in May, I think -- yes, in May. I came to

Rzeszoew, because it was time, you know, that we get together and put the --

Q: Code?

A: -- in code -- code the -- all the information. He was not in, sh -- his sister said he

went to Krakow, and he's supposed to be today, but he did not show up, he not

came yet. So next day I came and she says, I worry, because usually if he don't

come, or if he come late, he will always give me through some of our information

that he will be late. So next day he didn't come, and she come -- oh, but there was

girl from Krakow, courier, that he was arrested in Krakow. And situation is bad

because they found he was -- some dollars on him, and something else. So -- but

now some other people, you know, brought the material and we should caught that

and send this somewhere. So -- and she got all this material. So I said, well, I will sit

down, I will code that, and I will carry it off to his deputy in Przemysl, this officer

in PrzemySl, brother of my first love, so I will go there with -- very happy to go The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 102

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

there. And so I did that. I dunno where to put that. So I get to Przemysl, or to him,

and he says, well, yeah, I know where we have to go together. So we went outside

of the town and in a little -- little field -- a road a-among farms, you know, not

regular road. And was little bridge, and there was a hole in -- on -- on -- on middle of

the bridge, and th -- we put that in some -- line up in cardboard paper, into -- just

brown paper, and put this [indecipherable]. So, okay. And few days later, we -- I

went to check, and was still there. Nobody pick up. So I came back to him, and I

says, well? He says, then we have to go across this river to contact them and so on.

And he -- his wife returned shortly before, they got little baby, little boy few months

old. And I know how happy she -- he was, you know, carry this -- playing with this.

So I said -- little devil, you know -- I will go. Because I --

Q: He has a child.

A: -- I know that he -- he was not anxious to go.

Q: Yeah.

A: But he make -- one thing I -- later, I have against him. He didn't tell me the true.

And so I pick up all this stuff, put myself here on the neck, and -- because I have to

walk across the river, and I know the river in this place because I was in high school

so many places I swam, so I know. And you cannot go where that was narrow, wa --

th-th-the water was low, so the pe-people -- people walk, or even wagons, you The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 103

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

know, go across, because the -- because that was the very strongly, by the police,

you know, because they didn't know that people walk there.

Q: Okay.

A: So I have to go somewhere they don't --

Q: Where they're not guarding it so much.

A: -- not guarding so much, because there is no -- so I know there was up to here

water.

Q: Okay.

A: So -- and I didn't know that in the meantime, in mountains, there was very rain.

And I walked into it, and I get right -- right here. The water was much higher, so I

have to swim. Luck -- good thing that I knows how to swim. So I swim across, and

that carry me quite further down.

Q: Okay.

A: And here, I got from him, coat. You know, when I get on the other side, to get to

crosses the first guard -- Soviet guard, I have to tell him, you know, this coat, or

whatever it was. And now Soviet guard. So, I -- loud, I start to -- loud, you know, ca-

call. And I get on the road, and car appear. Well, it was good car with NK WD --

KGB and other s --

Q: NKVD.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 104

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: NKVD, yeah. So they grabbed me, you know, I was wet, and did I -- know that I

came across the river illegally, and so on, and I got this. So they get me to -- to the

building where the -- before the war was Polish police station --

Q: Okay.

A: -- you know, in [indecipherable]. And they get me out -- they get this -- all this

stuff out, this [indecipherable] there were maps, there were information, and it was

all wet, so they put, you know, to dry, and they get me, whoa, I'm spy -- spy, I go

yes, I'm spy. And I get this code, you know, to them.

Q: It doesn't say anything.

A: No, it doesn't mean anything. But they start to -- and they -- they start to call

somewhere. Well, it was because that was the secret police that [indecipherable] in

this -- but this was group, the military --

Q: Right.

A: -- espionage.

Q: Right.

A: So they didn't had contact with. They didn't like each other.

Q: Ah, the regular KGB didn't like the GRU.

A: GRU, yeah.

Q: The mil -- the military, mm-hm.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 105

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: You know. So, but finally they get to somebody, and after -- and they, you know,

in -- get tough to me. And I was thirsty, I was hungry, and I was shaking, you know.

Q: You're cold, mm-hm.

A: Cold, because I put the wet pants on me and wet shirt, and so finally they got

some [indecipherable] and they came to me. They took me, they bring me blanket,

you know, and they got hot tea, and -- and so on, and vodka. And so finally a fellow

came with leather jacket.

Q: Okay.

A: And he give me this coat. He was not British, he was simply Soviet GRU

military espionage chief for this part of occu -- German occupied [indecipherable].

So on this -- a Polish fellow in Przemysl, the deputy chief of this Mila(ph)

Ruskaivich(ph) --

Q: Right.

A: --he didn't told me that. So I was, at the beginning I was sure that I will --I

waiting for British.

Q: That's right.

A: But it give me something you know, that is something fishy here. So I didn't tell

them, you know, that I was just repeating the -- the code, you know.

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 106

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: And not telling him anything else, not asking anything else. And so finally they

found this guy, he was not any British, he was Soviet military espionage chief.

Q: And did you then talk to him, once he gave you the code?

A: Well, he get this all, and he -- so, he was ov -- he was very sorry that Mila(ph)

Ruskaivich(ph) was arrested, because his wife and children were on Soviet

occupation, because the mo -- Major Ruskaivich(ph) was assigned on the border

with Soviets. And so he was mobilized to the fr-front line, so he was on western

part of Poland, but his wife and two children was left in the [indecipherable]

Q: Soviet area.

A: -- before -- before the war they lived in town near the Soviet border. And this --

this NKGW,, he said, oh I forgot, sad mission to tell wife that her husband was

arrested by Germans. So now that's ex -- ex -- also explain why my rish -- Major

Ruskaivich(ph) get into this business, to protect the ho --

Q: His wife.

A: -- the wife and children.

Q: Well, that's what my thought was, that in some ways maybe they were hostages.

A: Well, they were at -- hostages, but to some degree, you know. No, they would

probably be transferred to Siberia, but they stay, and they need to eat, you know, so The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 107

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

they have to get some supply. So, because of that, they were living pla -- practically

normal life. So what happened after that, I don't know.

Q: But this is interesting, that the Polish underground was supplying, or at least this

general -- this general was supplying intelligence to the Soviets on the other side of

the river.

A: Well because, as I said, that was the reason, because he tried to help your wife --

Q: His wife.

A: -- and children, you know.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: After all, he has said, even -- and we believe that, that after the -- during the first

World War, the war between countries which partition Poland -- Russia, Germany

and Austria, the war between them, between Austria, Germany and Russia bring

the Poland independence. So we felt that if this can happen, so we be -- we -- we be

-- we trying to do something to convince Soviets, and you know, so th-they get fight

-- start to fight among themselves, because we came to conclusion that would be

good for Poland. So that was -- you know, life is very complicated.

Q: It is complicated. So you sta -- so they -- at some point they let you go back on

the other side?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 108

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Not just go back, they organ -- I stayed there two or three days, because they

have to check something on me, and check this material. And after about three days

this guy came and says, it is very -- he says, it looked at the German are preparing

war against Soviets -- not him -- don't say Soviets, but Socialist Republic, you

know, and so on. And I say -- I said, wi-wi -- from this information we get, it looks

like that, because more and more troops is in -- practically in the village -- in many

villages. Farmers" villages are full of military units. So they don't come there for --

Q: Fun.

A: -- any other reason. So -- and buy he d-- we don't believe, and Stalin don't

believe that -- that will happen. And Stalin didn't believe to the last day. But the

grou -- the military units --

Q: The military --

A: -- got the information, so they were very not happy with the possession of Stalin,

but they cannot do anything about it.

Q: So this is the military intelligence units?

A: Yeah.

Q: The GRU.

A: GRU, yeah.

Q: Yeah. And so they come, and they -- they're then convinced that you are fr -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 109

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Then -- and so he come -- he says, you fine [indecipherable] I was ba -- three

days, maybe four days even. So one of the fine -- I was -- start to worry, you know,

what will happen, that [indecipherable]. Oh, they put me in the house across, on

the street [interruption]

Q: Okay, so you're starting to worry what's going to happen, will they let you go?

And then?

A: Yes, and the one evening he come, and we drove to the certain spot, and he get

off the car and he's -- tell me, lay down here so nobody will see you, as we were

close to the river. And he says, we have all -- look at. There were every mut -- I

don't know, 10 - 15 meters, Soviet soldier watching the other side. And they

watched the German, on the other side Germans, where they are. And he says, in

proper moment, you see -- you see, this is boat here. There was a guy from the other

side with boat on this side, and when the Germans guards were far away, we cross.

So I crossed the river on boat, to the house, which was -- he got some contact with

them, because they told me to stay in this house until morning because --

Q: Right.

A: -- police hours at night --

Q: Right, curfew.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 110

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- you know, curfew. And so I stay in this house, and the -- they got like -- well,

not in the house itself, but like before that, cover with some walls and so on,

entrance to the house, and they got nice soft place, so I just lay down there and

[indecipherable]

Q: And you slept.

A: And I slept til morning. And in morning -- oh, and I get some money from there.

But the Polish money, this silver 10 dollars -- 10 zlotys before the war, which were

still good in German occupation. And so I was very happy, this is the reason I could

not walk, you know, they brought me across with the thing. So I left part of this

money over there, because I would look --

Q: Funny.

A: -- funny, suspici -- when I walk out of place where I stay, to my friends. And I

leave part of -- with them. When -- I leave for them also for the service I got. And

then the rest I bring to [indecipherable] to this deputy chief of this unit, and I give

him and he is give -- give me some, and took, I don't know for whom he or else he

get for himself. But anyway -- and that was the end of my espionage work.

Q: Interesting.

A: Interesting. I tell you --

Q: Really interesting.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 111

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- the bi -- the little devil cannot be [indecipherable]

Q: So, what language did you speak with them? Wi -- in -- with the Soviets over

there?

A: In Polish.

Q: In Polish, in Polish.

A: Yeah. I don't know Russian, so --

Q: Okay. Okay.

A: Th---and they didn't know German.

Q: So, I think we" ll break right now. [break] All right, before the break, we were

talking about your arrest --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- and that you were -- you were not released, and that it didn't matter that there

was no evidence against you, that it was very arbitrary, very often. And you were

taken from your prison to Auschwitz-Birkenau.

A: Yes.

Q: Tell me about that journey, and how you got there.

A: Well, journey is very simple, the cattle cars, loaded, like fishes in -- in -- in --

inside. Well, the distance was not too far, but it take just about a day to get there,

because the -- the wa -- this car was not priority you know, in the train they stop for The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 112

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

some reason, put on sa -- tra -- side tracks, and so on. But we get there, I don't know

what time it was because we got no -- no watches. But it was -- we left morning, it

was early afternoon. And so well -- the --

Q: What's the first thing you see?

A: The first thing? Well, first thing, we walk -- at this time they s -- they built this

railroad station in Birkenau, but shortly after they open already so the trains get to

the station and the people walk directly from the -- for us we get to Auschwitz and

from Auschwitz, like on trucks they dri-drive us to Birkenau, and then unloaded

us, and is -- is usually everything -- we drop everything. Well, we were nude, we

walk to a shower. So, luckily they put a -- they took us to shower, not to gas --

Q: Chamber.

A: -- chamber. And so they --

Q: Were you in civilian clothes, or were you in prison clothes?

A: Yes, in civilian, in civilian clothes, yeah. So we drop everything, and I don't

know, first we -- they put tattoo number, I think. So the prisoners put tattoo number

here, here, or here; it depends on the SS officer on -- on --

Q: On duty?

A: --in charge, yeah.

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 113

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: So well, mo-most of them -- most of prisoners have here, or here --

Q: Where do you --

A: -- but I got here.

Q: You have here?

A: Yeah.

Q: Can you roll up your sleeve so we could see?

A: Yeah, sure, yes. When I go to Holocaust Museum and stood in si -- this is the

best [indecipherable] so I go there with si -- a shirt with sm -- short sleeves.

Q: Uh-huh. And that's your tattoo number.

A: Yes, 153156.

Q: Any way -- could -- move like thi -- yes.

A: Yeah. Can you have the picture of this?

Q2: Yes, I have it.

Q: 153156. Got it. Thank you so much. So that's where yours was stamped, not

inside here, but on your arm --

A: It depends -- well, all prisoners have here, here, here, or here.

Q: Okay.

A: You know, it depends on the officer SS, who was on duty.

Q: How long does it take to get tattooed?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 114

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Hm?

Q: How long does it take to get tattooed?

A: Well, it does not take long time. There's just tattoo, like some others they have

nice girls, or -- or boys, or something, you know. Same thing, just the number, so it

does not take too long. And -- but the -- what was very painful was shaving, because

the -- also prisoners shave us from head, all the way down, with ma -- never sharp --

you know, we're all bleeding because the -- it was not --

Q: The knives weren't sharp enough.

A: -- not sharp enough. And so it was very painful to -- shaving was painful.

Q: What happened after that?

A: Well, after that, we go by, and they throw the -- the sh -- you know, sh -- the

parents -- but they didn't had -- in Birkenau they didn't had this -- this uniforms,

you know, just civilian clothing. So I get jacket, which was --

Q: Too -- too small?

A: Too big.

Q: Too big.

A: I could -- I could probably reach to the back, you know, and pants was -- were

good, and so -- and then in Buchenwald, when they transferred me to Buchenwald,

the -- we get over there this uniform, this -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 115

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Prisoner uniform.

A: -- prisoners" uniforms.

Q: Okay. So there you are. What month of the year did you -- were you shipped to

Auschwitz?

A: End of September, or beginning of October, 1943.

Q: So that meant you had already been in captivity about four or five months, since

May.

A: More -- May -- May 224,

Q: So it would be May -- June, July --

A: June, July, August --

Q: -- August, September.

A: -- September. About four months.

Q: About four months.

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. And what happened after you put on the clothes and -- and the -- and the

jacket --

A: Well, they s -- they s -- to -- brought us to -- to barrack.

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 116

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: And that was their special for -- for quarantine, you know. So it was in this qu-

quarantine field. Because Birkenau has the fields, each field divided from each

other by regular fence, a wire fence, you know. And --

Q: Did you see other prisoners there?

A: Well, yes. They were --

Q: Not just from the cattle car, but ones who had already been there, yes?

A: Yes -- no, well, dif -- as I said, the fields were only fence, so -- and there was no

guard or anything, so you can go to the fence and talk to the fellow on the other

side. So -- but on one side there were Gypsies, so not much -- from all over the

Europe whatever -- whatever the languages they talk, I didn't know. On the other

side I don't remember even wa -- what field it was. So -- and I spend there three

weeks, and after three weeks, instead of go to different field, or to Auschwitz, they

transport me to Buchenwald.

Q: Oh, so you were in Auschwitz just for three weeks?

A: Just for three weeks in Birkenau.

Q: In Birkenau --

A: And that was this extermination camp for Jews and Gypsies. There were four

crematoriums working 24 hours a day. Fifth was built, and the gas chamber, and the

whole families from trains, from this ghetto cars, were simply drived there to -- to The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 117

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

gas chamber. They told them that they are going to take shower; instead of water,

was gas.

Q: Can you -- d-- when you were there, do you remember seeing those crematoria?

A: Well, I see them from apart, you know --

Q: Distance, from a distance, but did you know what --

A: From a distance.

Q: Did you know what they were?

A: Well, sure we know, because they were all prisoners who were kapo, you know

--na--- da -- well, not kapo, the kapo was at work, we were not working. But block

leader, and the stubendienst -- well, in Auschwitz they call schreiber in

Buchenwald they call stubendienst. They were working -- they were not working

hap -- they working in barrack. The block leader, he was the head of the block, and

his helper, schreiber they called, secretary, or stubendienst in Buchenwald, would

take care of cleaning the barrack when we go to work, bring food at the evening for

us when we return from work, so we s -- the soup was there already, a-and so on.

And clean the place. So they were old prisoners, so they know a -- so -- and when --

when wind blew from crematoriums in our barrack, we had smell -- burning,

characteristic odor, smell. Very characteristic -- flesh, burning flesh. It was different

smell than normal, you know, something burning. So we did know at the beginning The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 118

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

what -- why there is different, so they told us; this is the burning flesh, smell of

burning flesh.

Q: Wow.

A: And so -- so we saw the -- I saw from not too far, was maybe not even half a

block through the pour -- to this ramp where they get these prisoners, this Jewish

families, and walked them to -- get them to gas chamber. So they said --

Q: So you saw some of those families being walked?

A: Oh yes, from not -- really not too far. I said not half a -- not even half a block.

Less than that. Women with babies in their arms. Some young children, small

children hanging to her mother's shirts or you know, or father pants.

Q: And you already knew where they're going?

A: Oh yes, we know. You know, that is something -- so I was very glad when they

took me, you know, to -- that we are going some -- that I am going somewhere. Not

alone, but with the -- hundreds of others. We didn't know where, but w-we -- I wa --

I was glad that I get out from this, I won't see any more, you know, those whole

families going into gas chambers. Especially those other prisoners who work there.

They got commando called Canada -- Canada.

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 119

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: I don't know why, because they were very good situation, because when the

transport came, they got some bad jo-job. Those still alive get out, and they have to

-- to trans -- the train came from far, from Greece or something. Was three, four

days on the road. So they go in and pick up dead bodies, old people and children die

in those condition. So get those dead bodies. And those who get out, sometimes the

whole transport go directly to gas chamber, sometimes they make selection, and

pick up young women, young men, mor -- less often women, more men, to work,

you know; young, strong, healthy.

Q: Did you see any of these selections?

A: Well, from afar, not --

Q: From afar, from afar.

A: -- close, not close.

Q: Yeah.

A: So -- but they -- they si -- this -- all prisoners, you know, who work over there,

they told us what is going on. So is -- they said that sometimes parents went to gas,

and daughter and son, young, strong, stay in the camp, and parents went to gas

chamber. Well, they didn't stay in the camp to work long enough, because in the

condition and the si-- physical and mental -- you know, knowing that the parents are

dead already, they didn't stay too long, they -- not knowing food, they get weaker, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 120

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

and when they cannot work hard enough, so they follow their parents to gas

chamber.

Q: The people who -- the people who were older prisoners there, were they Polish as

well?

A: No, they were all different nationalities. In Auschwitz majority of them were

Poles, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: In Buchenwald, no, but in Auschwitz majority were Poles, because for quite a

while Auschwitz was camp for Poles. According to history, and I read somewhere,

the first transport to Auschwitz, th-they -- when they opened the camp -- because

Auschwitz was, before the war was military barracks. They were two floors --

buildings -- brick buildings, you know. So they just build later crematorium, and

some other things they needed, surrounded them with barbed wires, fence and

towers with for -- with guards with machine guns and so on.

Q: Were you -- when you were being transported, did you -- did you know that you

were being taken to Auschwitz?

A: No, I didn't know.

Q: You didn't know.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 121

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: I don't know where. They get us from Tarnow to train, and this is it. I get --

when we get close to Auschwitz I knew station, so I thought that maybe we are

going to Auschwitz, and we went to -- to Auschwitz. Same thing later to

Buchenwald, I didn't know where we go, but I know geography, so on the -- on the

way, the towns, you know, we pass [indecipherable] I don't know if I go -- we go

to Buchenwald, or to Dachau, or some other camp in Germany.

Q: Did you know the names of these German camps by then?

A: Yes, we knew some name. Dachau we knew. We knew Buchenwald. There was

Sachsenhausen near Berlin.

Q: That's right.

A: And -- no, and -- and Auschwitz. So we knew already, especially in underground

we know, we got some information. We have some prisoners who escape from

Auschwitz, and --

Q: Had you met any of the prisoners who escaped?

A: I didn't met them, but they were in the ungra -- underground paper, you know,

the condition -- this situation over here, what it is there, and so on. But when I get

there, I still came to conclusion that I-- I know very little. It is impossible in wars,

to describe the ca -- the feelings, you know. This barbed wires, this guards, those SS The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 122

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

men with the dogs, and those prisoners. Many they call -- they call them -- oh gee,

remember -- the -- well they -- it will come to me.

Q: Okay, okay. So, what kind of work did they have you do during those three

weeks in Auschwitz?

A: Oh, three weeks nothing, we didn't do anything special. That was quarantine.

Q: Okay.

A: They wi--- we did not left the camp.

Q: Okay.

A: So the block leader, who was German, in this case -- in my case, when I was -- he

was German political communist, they said. The stubendienst, I don't know. He

was, I think, green, because we had triangle. Red triangle was political prisoner.

And there was letter P for Pole, R for Russian, you know. And then, on this

triangle, below this triangle, was a number.

Q: So you -- the number that was on your arm was on the triangle.

A: Yes, also here and here.

Q: On your pants -- okay.

A: Here was also just the number, nothing, no triangle there, but --

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 123

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- but here triangle. Then recognize -- criminals had green triangles. That was --

we recognize that is a criminal prisoner. Now, the religious, by -- those jude --

Jehovah Witness, and some other sects who refused to serve in military, so they got

purple triangle.

Q: And was everybody in your barracks with the red triangle with the P?

A: All red -- red triangle. Well, the first -- at the beginning in this tra -- in the -- in the

mar -- matter of fact, in Buchenwald too, there were barracks -- block, they call it,

nationalities. There were few blocks in Buchenwald, there were a few blocks Poles

only. There was also one block for Jews in the -- in the camp there.

Q: In Buchenwald, or --

A: In Buchenwald, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: And they said that there were some engineers, you know, very high, technically

educated people, and they need them, so this was the reason they keep them there.

Q: Okay. So after the quarantine -- and that was to make sure that you didn't bring

in typhus or something?

A: Yeah.

Q: Mm-hm. After the quarantine, one day --

A: Well, they pick up us again, put in the train, and we went. I don't know where.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 124

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay. Okay.

A: Well, I was lucky that I get to Buchenwald, because many went to Austria.

Q: Mauthausen?

A: Mauthausen. Which was bad because they got stone quarrel main work there.

Q: Yeah.

A: So the work was very hard. They got stone quarrel in Buchenwald too, but this

was one of the commanders, not the large one.

Q: So tell --

A: And there were many others.

Q: -- tell me, when you got to -- did you recognize geographically where you were?

Could you see through the cattle car? Was there a window or something?

A: Yes, when we were going -- I remember Nysa. There's Nysa now in Poland.

That is partisan Poland after the war, Nysa, Nysa. So, and the po -- the train stop

there, and some people, Germans, because that was German territory already, some

people on the station waiting for train, were talking Polish bandits, Polish bandits

are in the train.

Q: Ponish(ph) bandyta.

A: Ponish(ph) bandytin(ph), yes.

Q: Ponish(ph) bandyta.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 125

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Ponish(ph) bandytin(ph), exactly.

Q: And --

A: So I hear that from there, through the -- and I didn't feel bad about.

Q: [laughter] Okay, so you knew you were in Nysa, in Germany.

A: Nysa si-- well, I didn't know where we are going, but when we get -- we get in

Weimar, from the railr -- from the station, and we walk, then I came to conclusion

that we are probably going to Buchenwald because Buchenwald's just north or

Weimar.

Q: So what train station did you go to, the Weimar central train station, or to a

special one that was close to --

A: No, we -- the regular -- regular station, that you don't -- don't have extra trains,

other e-extra tracks.

Q: No extra tracks to the camps themselves?

A: No, to the camps they have, but to Buchenwald -- and Buchenwald is on -- on

the slope of a hill.

Q: Okay.

A: So the train thi-- can't get -- can get close to it, but not to the Buchenwald itself.

Q: Okay. And what did it look like as you were going from Weimar to

Buchenwald? What was -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 126

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Well, pe -- nice territory, this Thuningen(ph), central Germany. And Weimar --

and -- and Buchenwald is sort of -- Weimar is just south of Harz mountains, which

are very nice -- nice range of mountains in Germany. And Buchenwald is closer to

mountains than Weimar itself. Weimar is well known, dred -- German

[indecipherable] spend a lot of time there, in Weimar. And so we walked from

Weimar to Buchenwald east, about seven or eight kilometers. And at that time

Buchenwald was not very bad camp, because that was 1943, at yet the end of

September or beginning of October, because they need workers. They built --

outside of Buchenwald they built 12 factories, 12 holes [indecipherable] each one

-- in each hole they work -- they -- they produce something else. Majority of this pla

-- of the holes were producing something for the military.

Q: And so, when you got --

A: So, it was th-the holes were -- they built barb wires fence same as around

Buchenwald, and around the constellation camp, and with everything else. And so

in the morning when they opened, when we supposed to go to war, the guard took

position in those spaces where they supposed to be, and they opened the gates, and

we walked to [indecipherable] the holes where we work.

Q: And what ho -- wh-what hole were you assigned to?

A: I didn't work in this, cause I worked someplace else.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 127

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay, where did --

A: I work for the b -- for a while inside the wooden -- I split the -- the -- this part with

the roots, you know, of tree, which is --

Q: The trunk of the tree.

A: The end of the tree inside, you know, and cut here. So they brought over there,

and my job was split them and -- in small pieces, so those other guys with saw, they

make it wood for burning for whatever.

Q: Okay, so what you had to do was split the trunks of trees?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. And this was --

A: That was light work, you know.

Q: Well, it's not like lifting stones, that's for sure.

A: But it was very hard.

Q: Was it?

A: Well, sure. I learned na -- for example, I na -- I didn't know that. I would think

that -- that the -- the hardwood, you know, it is hard to split. And -- but the reverse is

true. Hardwood is easy to split. Your make little strength, and they got special steel

and wood thing, you know. You make in this group, steel -- this -- I don't know the

na--E-English name for that. And you hit with the hammer two or three times, and The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 128

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

it wents down, and split little more. So make bigger thing, and then you take larger,

or even wooden thing, and you hit with heavy --

Q: What instrument did you have to use?

A: Well, the regular -- no --

Q: Ax, or hammer?

A: La -- hammer.

Q: Hammer. So you had a hammer to be able to split the wood, but no axes or

anything like that?

A: Well, there were axes to help, you know, sometimes, to start, you know.

Q: To start the process.

A: Yeah.

Q: And you say this was inside? This work was inside?

A: No, outside.

Q: Outside. Outside.

A: No, it was outside.

Q: Okay.

A: So-

Q: What did the barracks look like that you were housed in?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 129

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Well, the barracks very wooden -- they were wooden and they -- in -- in

Buchenwald they -- well, Auschwitz was brick, because that was former military

barracks. But Buchenwald was built, so they have -- they have few built brick bil --

two floor buildings. But majority were bar-barracks, you know, long building, and

in the middle -- in the middle bi -- in the building was entrance, you know, gate, and

there was room and across was washroom, you know, toilets and things like that.

And on both side of -- from this all were large rooms, sleeping people. There were

three -- three floors --

Q: Three levels.

A: -- three levels [indecipherable] you know. So -- and just narrow spaces between,

and again and again, I don't know, it was 5-600 people in one barrack.

Q: That's huge.

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you sleep on a bottom bunk or a top bunk?

A: No, I was on top.

Q: And which was the better bunk to have? Did it matter?

A: It does not matter much.

Q: Okay. Okay. And since there were five or 600 people, were -- did -- were they of

all different nationalities in that one barrack?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 130

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: No, usually they have together, as I said, Poles, they have few barracks. So I

don't know how many thousands of Poles were in Buchenwald. There were a few

thousand Poles in Buchenwald.

Q: Were there --

A: And there were Czechs, who were before us, you know.

Q: Were there any Soviet prisoners of war?

A: No.

Q: Okay.

A: No, they were in Auschwitz only.

Q: Well, you see bu -- what -- I've been to Buchenwald --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- but of course, in the 80s. And yes, in the late 1980s, when it was a memorial.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: And the whole -- when I walked into the memorial -- I don't know if you've been

back --

A: No.

Q: -- but when I went into the memorial, the whole place where the barracks had

been was all level. There was no -- no buildings left.

A: Oh. Oh.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 131

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: But there were a few buildings on the side. And one of them was a -- one of them

was supposed to be a doctor's office, but it was a trick place. It was a place where

you come to get a medical exam, and you're standing high to be measured, your

height measured, and instead, a little circle opens up at the back of a person's neck,

and a gun is stuck in and then they're shot. And when I went, in the late 1980s, they

said this is what was done with Soviet prisoners of war. So if you --

A: Well, maybe later, when I was not --

Q: When you weren't there.

A: Because the Buchenwald was bombed in August 1944, and we lost the work

there. They bomb all those -- Americans did very good job.

Q: Ah, they bombed Buchenwald --

A: They bomb -- bomb all the factories, but not the -- our barracks.

Q: Oh.

A: So they did very good job. And so we lost the wor-work, so they transfer us to

different camps. So I landed at the end of -- again in September deg44, in Bad

Gandersheim, about a hundred kilometer further west. It was a huge hole, and they

supposed to build airplanes. So --

Q: Mm-hm. So you were in Buchenwald almost a year. Not quite --

A: Yes, yes, yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 132

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Not quite a year, okay.

A: Well, that was branch of the bo -- Buchenwald, so it -- it was part of

Buchenwald.

Q: The place that you went to --

A: Bad Gandersheim.

Q: Yeah.

A: Bad Gandersheim, yeah.

Q: Before we get to there, is -- so did you spi -- was your work the whole time you

were in Buchenwald splitting these trunks?

A: No, no. No, I -- all -- all different kind of work. We know from underground, you

get to Auschwitz, say that you are a gardener, because they got large garden,

vegetables and things like that for SS.

Q: Okay.

A: So that other people work there. So I had that. Well -- but they transfer me from

Auschwitz to Buchenwald, and in Buchenwald, garden was very bad place to

work.

Q: Oh really?

A: Yes, because Buchenwald is in slope over hill.

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 133

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: So, it is bad soil.

Q: Okay.

A: Yellow clay mixed with sand. And now, working in -- what I got? The whole

under shoe, you know, this whole wooden shoe --

Q: Right.

A: -- no stockings, no [indecipherable] even, because I had nothing --

Q: Right.

A: -- you know, barefoot in this wooden thing. And then li-- November, December

[indecipherable] rain, wet --

Q: Cold.

A: --clay turn into mud, and we carry the s -- fertilizer, the -- all the canals get to the

place where they -- filters, you know, and this clear water run through some creeks,

some -- a river, and this heavy stuff left there, they put in the -- they would have

wooden box, quite large, in the middle, and two wooden, big, heavy --

Q: Handles?

A: -- handles. One guy on front, one in the back, and two of us. They loaded this

box with the foot, and we carry this, you know.

Q: The manure.

A: The manure.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 134

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: The manure, okay.

A: On the -- on the fields, yeah.

Q: Oh, please sit down, please sit down, okay.

A: On--on--- on the -- on the fields, you know. And sometimes quite distance. And

here, the mud, you put -- you -- you get -- you try make next step. So you pull your

foot out, but shoes sta -- that wooden sti -- shoe --

Q: Stays.

A: -- stay in the mud. So, you have to put -- start back -- put back, and it is -- was

going like that. So I get my s -- foot here, so mix up, you know -- not mix up, but

wounded, it was --

Q: Infected.

A: -- infected. And so I landed in hospital, and that was interesting too, this hospital.

Q: Yeah, tell me, what does a hospital in Buchenwald look like?

A: Well, they -- at the beginning they didn't have much hospital, but as I said,

because they sent the workers to mil -- they mobilize workers, German workers, so

they need to replace them, they replace them with prisoners. So that was the

situation, that condition were much easier than before. So -- so finally I got this very

--I could not put the shoe -- foot in the shoe, so they send me to a hospital. There

was a barrack like our barracks, large room. I don't remember now how many g -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 135

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

how many beds there were, four, five -- 10 -- 12 beds in the room. And there was

head of the room, he was prisoners too, Czech. They said that he was male nurse

from Czechs" army, okay. So, that evening -- so first time I was in bed and sleep

good, and although this pain bothering me. Next m -- next day he walk around and

come to me and says, well, what you got here? Well, let's go. So we went to next

room. And next room was operating room. There was a table. On table was paper

like the butcher shops have, you know, white paper. There was some prisoners

earlier down on this paper, and other prisoners operated -- was digging something in

his belly.

Q: Oh my goodness.

A: Yeah.

Q: Oh my goodness.

A: So -- and this guy tell me that this operator -- prisoners -- he's the best surgeon in

-- in Prague, capital of Czechoslovakia; a professor of the university, and

professional -- it's a good surgeon. But prisoners, and with primitive con -- situation,

conditions.

Q: Right, no now -- no pain killers.

A: No pain killers, no. So we walk by and ne -- he put me -- he stop and talk to this

surgeon for a while, and then he come to me -- well, we sit -- we sat at the end of the The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 136

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

room, and then he come and put me -- and he said, you know, he will be with this --

digging this belly for a couple of hours, so if you want, I can do this to you.

Q: Okay.

A: [indecipherable] I was in pain, you know, infection and si-- fever. Go ahead.

And so he -- he pot -- put me -- set me on chair like they have in shoe stores, you

know.

Q: Oh yeah, mm-hm.

A: You know, it's -- chair. And then he walked back and talked to the pri -- to this

surgeon -- to the doctor, and came back and he brought ice pick, jar with some fluid,

a scissors and paper bandages, because there was no other bandages during the war,

no cotton in Europe because blockade, American and British navy you know, don't

get any -- don't se -- don't -- they cannot bring any cotton, or coffee, for example.

Coffee were -- were gold in price in -- in -- during the war. So, he came and he says,

are you strong, he asks me. I said, oh, I think Iam. And he look at, I have many

marks you know, after beating, the tortures. So he says, well, put your hands -- and I

was sitting on this chair, it's like shoe store, in the back. And he says, don't touch

me. Even if it's very painful, don't touch me. Okay. So I gi--I was sitting like that,

and he put -- and he hit with the ice pick, you know, hit this --

Q: Infected area.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 137

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- infected area, and stick -- and make hole and took scissors in, and

[indecipherable]. I got big marks here after that. And it was release you know,

because the stuff start to run out, and I feel -- felt release. The pain was gone, just

about. And -- but when he finally -- this -- the stuff really run down, he put some dish

on the bottom, and when he start and get -- this was in this jar, it was alc-alcohol.

And so when he -- this cotton -- not cotton, but --

Q: Paper bandages.

A: -- that pe -- pe -- piece of paper bandage stuck there, and start to clean, well that

was pain. It was painful. And then, after he cleaned, he just bandaged. No sew,

nothing, no stitches, nothing. No in -- nothing, nothing, just -- just --

Q: Paper bandage.

A: -- cleaned that -- cleaned that and paper bandages and that's it. And it -- it get

together --

Q: So how long were you then laying in the hospital for --

A: I got no--I--I don't remember. Not too long.

Q: Not too long?

A: Yeah. And after this, they put me to split those --

Q: Ah, okay.

A: -- you know -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 138

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: To split that --

A: -- that --

Q: -- so that you w --

A: -- that was the re-convalescent job, you know.

Q: [laughter] So that meant that you didn't have to go in that muck again. No more

gardening.

A: No more gardening, yes.

Q: No more gardening, okay.

A: Yeah.

Q: And then what -- did you have any other job?

A: Well, I have -- well, if you -- they -- once in a while they send me to -- to here, to

there. Nothing s -- no, ne-neither one was any special. Oh, the most important.

Later, I get as a --as all prisoners already -- in Buchenwald there was two lagers,

two camps. Main camps and small camps. Small camps, there was few barracks for

quarantine. And they were separated by fence. By the regular fence, not --

Q: Barbed wire.

A: -- barbed wires, and no ga -- ga -- guards or anything. Only there was a door

leading to it in the -- in this fence, and there was one prisoner on duty checking

permission to -- from the camp, to small camp.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 139

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: Why? Because the small camp was quarantine camp. New prisoners. And I, for

example, once in four weeks, they re -- ke -- in Buchenwald, they send postcards to

the families. It was important to notify family that I am alive. Another one they can

get -- we can get parcels from re -- families to Buchenwald. So, not a very important

thing with all this --

Q: Right.

A: -- not enough food and so on, everybody was getting skin and -- bone and skin.

Q: Sk -- yeah.

A: And -- and so it was important. So I felt the pa -- the -- one margarine -- before

breakfast we got piece of bread, and one margarine, in a regular -- regular -- you

know, one margarine, this thing. So it was important to save some piece of bread

and piece of the margarine for noon, because at noon you will -- we -- we were -- we

were getting half quart of -- supposed to be coffee, but there was no coffee. Ersatz

coffee, that's terrible. So it was important to have piece of bread to work after noon.

At the beginning we didn't know that, because everybody -- there was not too much,

this piece of bread for one --

Q: Person.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 140

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Yeah. For breakfast. And so -- but [indecipherable] and so this piece of

margarine was 25 cents on the black market, and the postcard was four pfennigs --

25 -- not cents, but pfennigs, the German -- no, German, pfennig --

Q: Yeah, pfennigs, pfennig.

A: -- yeah, pfennig, 25 pfennigs. And postcard was four. So I give the four

margarine for postcard.

Q: Wow.

A: This is the way they handle, you know, black market. And that was tho-tho-those

guards were to protect us from wi -- di-- from, you know, getting advantage from

us, but didn't work much. But anyway, after some -- near the end of -- before this --

when they bombed Buchenwald in August, I was already working in -- inside in the

ga -- in the camp, and I just watched those airplanes bombing with very big smile.

Q: Now, you said there wa -- was a Jewish barracks, as well?

A: In Buchenwald there was one barrack Jews only.

Q: And they were privileged -- not privileged, but they were --

A: Not privileged. This way --

Q: -- but they were kept because they had skills.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 141

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Yes. This is what they told us [indecipherable] other prisoners, you know,

older. They were longer there, so they knew more about, that this is, they are skill

workers, and this is the reason they keep them there.

Q: Okay. Did you have any contact with them directly, or were they separate?

A: No, we had no contact, and they warn us other prisoners, don't get in touch,

because if the Germans notice, you can be in trouble.

Q: Okay. Were people dying a lot?

A: Well, they were dying. They'd get beaten at work by prisoners, other prisoners.

So there was a system, unhuman system, that human kill other humans. Prisoners

kill other prisoners just to survive.

Q: How did -- how did killing another prisoner help somebody survive?

A: Well, he was vorarbeiter, or kapo --

Q: Okay.

A: -- you know. So he didn't work. So that was great advantage. Even if he don't get

more food, or anything, but at least he doesn't have to work. So, he has more

chances, you know, to survive.

Q: Okay.

A: But he have to do the job. Naturally, they were, majority of them trying not just

to look when kapo is coming, so work harder, you know, we know that. So we did.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 142

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Well, the kapo went and we -- you know, again. So that sometimes vorarbeiter was

watching, not to get in trouble himself, but at the same time he didn't push us any

hard. He got this wooden stick, but he didn't use. But there were some who did.

Same thing was kapos. Kapo had three, four groups, and he walk from one group to

another, you know, to check on the vorarbeiters and we work. And he also was

armed with wooden stick, and he used that quite often.

Q: So you're talking a four --

A: Majority of them were German criminals.

Q: So a four arbeiter was like a foreman of that unit?

A: Foreman of the group.

Q: Of the group.

A: Twenty-eight -- 25 gr-- people working, doing same job, you know.

Q: Mm-hm. Were there --

A: Being s -- let's say, digging ditch for -- for s-sewers.

Q: Were there any women in Buchenwald?

A: They were separately.

Q: They were separate, okay.

A: No, they were -- they were not mixed, no.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 143

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay. Okay. The sewers, were the sewers being built for the camp itself? You

said there were sewers --

A: Yes, for -- for the camp, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: Well, there was -- in Buchenwald there were approximately 30,000 prisoners.

Q: Huge.

A: Sure, sure.

Q: Huge.

A: So they were about thousands SS, the -- the brick barracks, two, three floors were

the SS guard live. There were also several hundreds of them.

Q: Did you have contact with them directly, or mostly your contact with --

A: No, we have no with this contact. The only contact we have with them, when

some -- when we wer -- go to work, and some of them best -- beast -- work on side,

and with the gun, hit us in the -- in the -- in the [indecipherable]

Q: Yeah.

A: --in the si-- on the side here. There were some like that.

Q: Were you ever hit in the side like that?

A: Yes, I was.

Q: Were you beaten?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 144

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Not beaten, no.

Q: Okay, okay. Were there executions?

A: Yes, there were execution. They hang those who try to escape, and there were --

and the -- and were caught, they were hang publicly so we all see, as don't do that

because this is what will happen to you. Matter of fact, in Auschwitz -- no, in

Birkenau, when we get to Birkenau, the first head count, you know, at

[indecipherable] they pick up as two -- two SS officer walk in front of the column

of the barrack, it was bi -- I said 600 or something like that people, and point out

raus, raus. And there was a to -- fellow -- friend of my -- my father from next

village. And we were standing together. On the other side I have a friend from tar --

from high school, you know, on the other side. And he pointed over at us, and we

both try to get out, and he says dlter raus. Older --

Q: The old one.

A: -- old one raus. So he was old --

Q: Okay.

A: -- because my age -- he was even probably older than my father. They were

working together. He go -- was -- he next village. He was coming to my father

because they were in -- in the co-op -- cope -- cope -- milk co --

Q: Cooperative.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 145

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- cooperative, yeah. And so he get out, and they take about 10 of them, and

[indecipherable] us to turn out near -- they walk them near a fence, and shoot them

there. And the SS ca -- ess man -- this officer came to us and says, this will happen

to you if you try to escape, you -- you disobey our orders, you don't work hard, and

so on.

Q: Charming.

A: Yeah. Th-This was welcome to Auschwitz-Birkenau. And I wrote about that in

-- under the title, welcome to Auschwitz, to Birkenau.

Q: Welcome to Auschwitz-Birkenau. Did you have a similar welcome to

Buchenwald?

A: No, no.

Q: Okay.

A: No, Buchenwald at that time, as I said, it was not as severe, and as bad as

Auschwitz still was. Because they build those factories, and they need people to

work.

Q: Okay.

A: So the regime was the same, the food and so on not more, but at least they didn't

beat people without reason and then kill them, or anything like that.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 146

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: So remind me again, what were the kinds of things those factories were

producing?

A: Well, all different kind of military things. One I -- I know one was producing the

wooden part to a gun, you know. It was wooden shop producing this for a gun.

There was one producing the cases for radio. And there were some parts for -- some

milit -- for some other sa -- there was one barrack inside the camp, who also only

people with high technical education worked there. They didn't know what they

were doing. Later, we learned that they were producing part to this Al, A2 th-they

shoot on London, you know.

Q: Oh, the V2 rockets.

A: V- V2 rocket -- rocket.

Q: Okay.

A: Part of --

Q: Part of it.

A: -- that, not -- not the whole part.

Q: Yeah.

A: Not the whole rocket, but part to the rocket.

Q: Interesting.

A: Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 147

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Interesting. Did news -- was there a well-developed information network among

the prisoners?

A: No.

Q: No.

A: In Buchenwald was underground -- underground organization, but completely

by communists.

Q: I see. So they -- did they --

A: And it was nobody try -- if anybody try with -- without them, very quick they

transfer him to someplace else.

Q: So you found it --

A: And this happened to me, too.

Q: Oh really?

A: Yeah.

Q: Tell me how that happened.

A: Well, I-- there was many Poles, you know, in several blocks. So we came to

conclusion that at least maybe we can some ways get some information and publish

weekly bulletin about the information, if anything else. So I started that with few

other people, and we get one -- few copies only, without some information from --

thr -- through radio, from [indecipherable] we got some people -- some fellow who The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 148

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

worked in the office. They got radio and so on. [indecipherable] combination. And

this first few copies we pu -- po -- po -- get in, and shortly after, I was on the list to

be transferred to Bad Gandersheim, to branch of Buchenwald.

Q: So where -- how did you distribute this few pieces of -- of -- few copies --

A: Through friends, you know.

Q: Through friends, okay. And so -- and so they didn't really want you there to write

up the --

A: Well, the communists --

Q: Right.

A: -- have monopoly. They don't want have competition, you know.

Q: So you found out where the power was, who had the power.

A: Yeah, well. Well, because there were many German communists you know, in

Buchenwald.

Q: Yeah.

A: And even their lager leader, they got so called lager leader -- not in Buchenwald,

in this Bad Gandersheim where I was. And this lager leader, who was a German

communist.

Q: Oh really?

A: Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 149

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay. So what did you do in Bad Gandersheim?

A: It-- Bad Gandersheim we supposed to build -- well, first we built -- they have no

-- there was no camp. Now 200 came from Buchenwald first transport, I was in first

transport, and then more. All together there were about 550 of us. Majority of them

were fra -- Frenchmen, Italian and Russian. And then later, from Auschwitz came

about 50 Poles and few from Buchenwald, so all together was about 55 - 56 Poles,

but were hundreds of Italians, Russians and Frenchmens.

Q: Okay.

A: And so first we have to build our barracks, our camp. They put us to sleep in old

monastery from medieval's time, which was not used as monastery, because the

territory became Protestant, completely hundred percent.

Q: Okay.

A: So this monastery was practically barn; the landlord, large landlord used this as --

for hay, straw, and things like that. So we sleep there and build our barracks, and

dig ditches to -- to get sewers, water and so on.

Q: Okay.

A: So, we get there in September, and I think lend of -- end of December, we moved

to our barracks already, from this old monastery. And so then we supposed to build

airplane. There a was railroad and on little higher, and on this slope of this -- from The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 150

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

regular to the land here, there were boxes with machines. Milicz air -- air -- air pl --

air factory Miliez --

Q: Milicz.

A: --in Poland, built just before the war. Open, I think, in 1938.

Q: Wow.

A: And naturally Germans took over, they use it. But when the Soviets army were

approaching, they get all these men to all the machines, and send them to Bad

Gandersheim, and they built factory to bil -- for build airplanes. So we supposed to

build the airplane, but first we have to build our barracks, our camp, o-our sewers

an-and everything else. Then one group get those boxes, and install in the hole, the

hole was ready. Then they were barracks like long and -- but brick buildings, not too

far away, next to this factory, where the German masters live. Civilians, you know,

electrician, whatever what they need, professional people to help, you know, in this

-- to build this factory. And so we installed those machines and -- and so on, and

then we, sometimes in winter we start to build the airplane. There was no --

someplace else they bra -- bring the mortars, you know, for -- and we build just this

thing, but we didn't finish it, not even one sa -- April first. Instead of go to work,

they decided that we walk to Buchenwald.

Q: From Bad Gandersheim?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 151

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Yeah, about hundred or more kilometers.

Q: How much -- many -- how many kilometers was it?

A: A hundred, maybe more.

Q: Oh my goodness.

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you -- now, did you -- was there ever any sabotage of this kind of

manufacturing?

A: Well, what kind of sabotage would -- can we --

Q: Okay, just asking.

A: We mi -- we didn't -- didn't build even the airplane.

Q: To sabotage it.

A: To sabotage it, no.

Q: Yeah. Okay, all right. Okay, so then you're on this walk from Bad

Gandersheim to Buchenwald.

A: To Buchenwald. Well, when we hear that, that we have to walk, we came to

conclusion that most situation must be bad for Germans if they don't have train or

trucks to --

Q: To take us.

A: -- get us there.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 152

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: So, we walk. We get -- again, more than normal portion of breakfast this mor --

bread, and margarine and we start to walk. We walk. There was the -- we were at the

end of Harz mountains and so we walk east, over the mountains, so the place get

higher and higher. And that was the road, the highest road in the slope of north --

north slope of the mountains. And so after a couple days, we didn't have anything

to eat, so we're gonna -- well, at the beginning, we just get not too far from this

place -- nice town, Seesen, I remember, very nice town. I was there later, after the

war, for a while. And they took about 18 or so prisoners, and took -- they were -- we

were in forest, walking through forest -- took them on sight, and shoot them there.

And why? Because they were thieves. Thieves? What kind of thieves? When we

were digging -- working near the field with potatoes, and there was large la --

landlord with a large play -- a large field of potatoes, and they piling up those

potatoes, you know, before they covered them. So it was mu -- large --

Q: Pile.

A: -- pile of potatoes. So somebody sneak in and steal a couple. I did that too couple

times. And if it -- th-the -- he was caught. So he was Ponish(ph), and he get on the

list as a thief. And those thieves, they shoot them.

Q: On this march.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 153

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: On this march. And then we start to walk. We walked, it was death march. And

well, the food was going. They didn't give us much more, so we were getting

weaker. Some people cannot walk, older people especially cannot walk, because

they were too weak. And they took them one side, shoot them, and we went further.

That was called death march, and there were many of those death march in

Germany at -- near the end of the war. And so what saved us -- me, was dog

biscuits. I have great respect for dog biscuits [indecipherable]

Q: Really? So how did you get these dog biscuits?

A: Well, one night we -- we were already in mountains. You know, fields, forests,

not much any places, were here and there some motels, hotels, you know, on the

road. Some hotels, specially for tourists you know, and the people who want spend

vacation in mountains, you know, so some sanitoriums. And one evening we were

getting close to night, and we hear dog -- dog barks, you know. And are many over

there. So we get to farm where they raised these German Shepherds, those German

dogs. So they put us -- dark was just about approaching, so they put us against barn.

Was here, and then here was this building with dogs, they're barking. And so they

got only here to cover, to have the guard, you know. And the evening, or at night,

when the -- those guys against the wall in this barn, you know, one of them noticed

that one of plank, the wall was wooden planks, you know, up and down. And on the The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 154

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

bottom the plank was rotten and the nail don't hold the -- so he moved this plank to

the side, and seeing inside. And what he got there? Boxes with dog biscuits. So he

start to pull -- get those dog biscuits out. Well, the news from m-mouth to mouth

spread very fast, and everybody at the b-barn there tried ev -- and some -- this wall,

the nail don't hold, and he can get in. And two others get in. So three guys went

inside, and they start to pass those dog biscuits. There were boxes with dog biscuits.

So they pass those ba -- dog biscuit to us. Well, we didn't had much anything, just

pockets here, and there's just not too much room, you know, in the pockets.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: So we put against here, on the shirt, you know --

Q: In the shirt, yeah.

A: -- around, all around, you know, those ba -- and they were square, very large,

square and thick, and very hard, you cannot chew it. But you put corner in the

mouth and saliva soften little, and you bite piece by piece. So next morning

everybody was working and chewing the dog biscuits. But the -- if not those

biscuits, I won't be here, because this is all what we had for next two or three days.

Q: Oh my goodness.

A: You know.

Q: Oh my goodness, yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 155

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: So if not those dog biscuits, I won't be here.

Q: So this was April first when you started this march?

A: Yes.

Q: And --

A: And 13 -- April 13, I get -- I jump out, I run away.

Q: How many kilometers do you think you'd gone?

A: I don't know how many, but we were -- they put us on field, we -- we -- oh, we

hear already not just artillery, but machine guns.

Q: Okay.

A: So this means that British and American forces are closing. So they put us one

night in large pile of straw and so on, on the field. And in the morning, close to

morning, we -- first time we hear this machine guns, even artillery, and then

machine. So first thing was we try -- in the morning we stay again, we don't go out.

Well, early in the morning, just -- just little, not completely daytime, trucks arrive

and get out -- they get us out. And we decided that we will stay here. There was

about 50 of us Poles, and we got one fellow, he was oldest one among us, and by

profession he was engineer from Poland. And so we -- so the people get out, and we

stands there. Then trucks arrive, and then in last moment, this guy says, you know The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 156

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

what? Ma -- this is not -- no time, let's go. We just jump out. Shortly after they start

to machine guns in the straw, and those who stay there all were killed.

Q: Oh my God.

A: Some of them tried to escape, you know, get out, but they were knocked down

by the machine gun. So we were lucky.

Q: Okay.

A: But next day -- the same day, the trucks -- we went through a town which was no

--no any authority in uniform. They had civilians -- civilians militia.

Q: Okay.

A: Civilians with old guns, you know [indecipherable] keep order, you know, the

town. So we know that there's no -- any police, not even no Gestapo, no army,

nobody else. So -- and they get us through this town, and drop us in the field. Near

was forest, and so now we start to get to -- get -- what the hell to do? And we came

to conclusion, they're now the guard. There was one -- one SS officer, I don't

remember his title now, who was from Poland, German from Poland; speak Polish

as good as I did. And when they start to kill those guys who cannot walk all -- all the

way, the le -- and they were weak, cannot walk, they just take them outside and

shoot them, and we go further. Was -- was 50 of us, we put ourself arms, and we

decide -- we got some few older people with -- among us, that we are not going to The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 157

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

allow that. In case they try to pick up anyone from us, the closest one un -- und -- di

-- di -- guard -- we jump on the closest guard, and get his gun, we can -- they will kill

-- older guns -- older guys will kill few of us, but we will get gun, and then we can

be [indecipherable] the rest.

Q: Okay.

A: So -- and this guy, he was in charge of this march from SS, this guy from Poland

-- German from Poland. And he saw that we are walking like that, and he came to

us in Polish. He told us, don't be afraid. The -- you're is -- you -- it is okay, you are

okay. Don't be afraid, nothing will happen to you guys.

Q: Mm-hm. And so when did you run away?

A: So, in this field, as I said, they jump -- dump us from the trucks, and we came to

conclusion that this is the time to -- is forest nearby, they won't -- now, the guard

change a exce -- with exception of two or three younger SS, those Hitler followers,

the rest were old men from the first World War, 50 or 60 years old. They mobilized

them, and they replaced the younger SS, who went to fight. They -- they put them as

a guard in that -- and so we know that they won't shoot us, they will shoot guard in

the window is where we were sending, you know.

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 158

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: And this is right -- it -- it -- it -- it would happen. Really, that -- those guys were --

hate those [indecipherable] not as -- worse than we did.

Q: Interesting to know.

A: Yeah.

Q: Interesting to --

A: Really, really.

Q: Yeah.

A: [have one guy who, we were walking in that -- near the tracks, he was walking

on the tracks, and putting some machine guns to this factory there. And he was

walking there, and -- and so on, he -- and so he asked, from where you? And I said

Przemysl. Przemysl? And he walk -- walking back. That was the fortress Austria

fortress. He was there during the first World War. So -- and he be -- we became

acquaintances. So, next day, when I was wal -- he walked there, and I noticed little

s-something felled out fro-from out these -- his coat.

Q: Pants? Oh, from his coat, okay.

A: This large, you know.

Q: Yeah.

A: Because that was fall already.

Q: Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 159

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: October. So I look, little -- little sandwich. Then, when we walked, w-we start

talk, you know, said, I told, my father is invalid, you know, wounded -- he was

wounded during -- he was in Austria army, he was wounded. Got pensioned, and

got one leg nine centimeters shorter -- shorter. And wa -- so he wa -- na -- were -- I

said, Italian front. Oh, that was bad, Italian front, it was bad.

Q: So he knew. He knew.

A: He knew, because you know, in the mountains.

Q: Yeah.

A: So, what happened, the artillery pieces hit the mountains, and not just the pieces

of the steel, but the pieces of stone, with the gra -- granite, or whatever it was, get

pieces of stone, split, and the pieces [indecipherable] also people.

Q: So there was a certain sympathy that grew up.

A: Yes, yeah, yeah.

Q: And so you knew that these old guys, who were with the old rifles, would not

shoot at you, as much as they would at the SS?

A: Yes, yes.

Q: So you ran away.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 160

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: And I ran a -- not only one. We decided that we about -- was not all the

headquarters [indecipherable] you know, but I was little devil when I was young

boy, so I always take chances, you know.

Q: So how many --

A: So I jump, and they really shoot me here, shooting, but nobody was hurt, and I'll

je --I'll get to the forest. And then later -- it was close to evening, shortly after -- I

know that they went around after us, because o-others who ran away, you know.

Q: That's right. There aren't enough of them to go.

A: So we know -- we know that.

Q: Okay.

A: -- that they wouldn't run after us, because they [indecipherable] 500 -- probably

is not 500, but 450 maybe, or so. But anyway -- so we ju -- jump and next -- and

before dark I get into couple fellows in forest, so we were together and we went to

sleep in the forest there. And next morning we went to -- was near -- by -- was small

river, to get wash, you know, and so on. So we s -- we were washing ourself in the

river, and finally, the road was a little higher, and finally we hear, hands up.

Germans, militia. Those civilians, you know, with [indecipherable] with old gun?

Well, they got guns, we didn't. And so we get out, and they walk us to a field.

There were couple hundreds already, civilians, you know, not the -- we were -- from The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 161

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

concentration camp they were -- those who escape from labor camps, you know, and

some other.

Q: Right, right.

A: Not Poles, the other different national -- nationalities. And they assemble us so

on this field, and later walk us to -- nearby was a huge building. It was ru --a--

Soviet Russia's prisoners of war camp. So they walk us there, but the building was

full of people, and th-they got the rooms, you know, even the corridors, there were

already some, like I, escapee, you know. So they s -- we stay in -- on the yard there.

And fi --it was close to late afternoon, and not to sh -- not to -- for -- for sometimes

those Russians who were upstairs in the ta -- hap -- ta -- third floor, I think it was

third -- three floor building, higher that, through the window to us, and down

bottom, that white flag on the church, that he saw there was down --

Q: A white flag on the church down in the village.

A: -- yeah, down in the village there, you know, he saw from -- we didn't, but he

saw from the tower. And then the German guard get out, line up. They then -- in

some -- we hear already some machines -- mo-motors coming, and they line up, then

they throw the guns a-ahead of them, and then we hear the motor cross. So one with

the keys walked to the gate, you know. But before he -- he -- he tried to -- were just

about trying to put the key in the -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 162

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Gate?

A: --in the door when the gar -- shot, you know, from the other side, Americans

shoot the door -- you know, this lock, and kick -- knock the -- with foot, you know,

open the door. And this German that -- naturally [indecipherable] they all get hands

up, and --

Q: So he wanted to lock the gate, basically he wou --

A: No, he want to open the gate.

Q: Open the gate. Ah --

A: He wanted to open the gate.

Q: -- to open the gate.

A: But the American was fastest, you know. They get to the gate and the gate

locked, so he just shoot the lock, and the gate open.

Q: Got it. Okay. And so you -- th-the Americans come in.

A: Americans came in. But that was evening, and they told us by German translator,

that this it the -- it was tank, German -- American tank. That is the first tank ahead --

so ahead of us are still Germans.

Q: Okay.

A: So stay overnight here, and tomorrow it depends on the situation, if he will tells

you you can go or not. You are all free. So we stay in the camp overnight, and next The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 163

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

morning the tanks -- well, the gates were -- gate was open, you know. So the tanks

are on their way, and next -- many tanks after the first one. So we -- then we get out

and I went to -- in the town, and I ran into Polish camp, several hundreds Poles, after

uprising in Warsaw.

Q: Ah, yes.

A: They were sent there, and they were working in -- in various places in this little

town. And it turned out that the town had many food warehouses. So they were wor

-- pardon me -- they were working in -- in various warehouses, and -- and -- and some

food factories in the town.

Q: You said food warehouses?

A: Food warehouses, yeah.

Q: Yeah, mm-hm, okay. So those were pretty good jobs to have.

A: Yeah, well sure, they have -- after the Warsaw uprising.

Q: Did you know --

A: So I joined them and with them, so --

Q: Did you know about the uprising? Cause you were already arrested.

A: I was in Buchenwald. We know -- we learn about because one day we noticed

that the SS toward us became quite rough, you know. So what? But, as I said, we The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 164

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

had, in Buchenwald was strong communist underground organization. So, from

them we learn that Warsaw uprising, it is --

Q: Going on.

A: -- uprising in Warsaw, and this is the reason the Germans are so tough to us.

Q: Okay. So you joined this group of people who had been sent to labor camps --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- who had been part of this Warsaw uprising. And where did you go?

A: Yeah. Well, we stayed there. I told myself I got the -- enough German

concentration camp, I don't want try Soviet concentration camps, because I know

that they are not better, and on top of that, they are in much colder places. Because

Siberia is much colder than Germany. So I decided to -- not to go back. And

although I've got family there, my first love was there. But here I was afraid

because I was in underground press, and I was on black list among the -- with the

communists, you know. Is anti-communist and anti-Soviet. And so, I don't know,

we --I didn't stay with them too long, then I joined some -- they were for --

organized displaced person camps. And they were to transfer, you know, some

camp. Oh, we -- I stay for a while, and then this place was taken by Soviets. They --

it was freed by Americans, but this part supposed to be British zone. But in last --

just before the war ended, they decided in the campgrounds just before the war The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 165

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

ended, that this part will be Soviet zone. It will be handed to Soviet zone because

Soviet get too small part of Germany.

Q: Okay.

A: So it was -- the further was -- so the British told us about, and they even

organized transport for us to get out even, you didn't want. Some who want to go

back to Poland, they stayed there and wait until Soviets arrive, and I don't know

what happened to that, but we get out to west, on the British zone, so we stay as --

stayed, then I -- well, I-- we get to this -- I mentioned this little town, Seesen, a very

nice town and it turned out there were many thousands of Poles from Poland during

the war that can do work in German factories in those warehouses and so on. And

so we get there, and not long, and because they put u -- put us in hotel by the

railroad, and they will sh -- they were o-opening the -- a railroad, and they went to

open the hotel, too. So they transfer us someplace else. So I -- I was not too far --

well, in this town, there were -- there was thousands of Poles, and we had no

information. So I get contact not too far away, was first Polish Panzer division from

Great Britain, who occupy northwestern part of Germany. So I got contact with

them, and I came to conclusion that we need something to [indecipherable] so I

will publish -- edit again, bill -- bulletin, and we'll -- I will get through that, from The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 166

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

them, some information. And so I started that, and in one of the bulletin, I brought --

there was t -- Pottsdam conference, between Stalin --

Q: The f-- yeah, the four powers.

A: Yeah, three powers.

Q: Three powers, yeah.

A: Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt. And Churchill was replaced by Attlee

because during the time was election --

Q: Elections, yeah.

A: -- and Churchill lost the par -- par [indecipherable] conservative party, lost the

power, and Attlee replace him, socialist. And I wrote that -- but that is this time still

Churchill was there. I -- I was surprised that Truman -- then Churchill and

Truman talked to some bandit like hit -- like Stalin, who is not better than Hitler.

Q: Yeah.

A: So, I wrote true. But couple weeks later, I was preparing next edition, and my

room knocked the door. I look, British MP.

Q: Oh my.

A: [indecipherable] And I didn't speak English, but he knows some few words in

German, that I am arrest -- arrested.

Q: By the British?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 167

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: By Brit-British m-military police, yeah. And they took me to this -- again, this

little town, Seesen, where there was a jail. And so they put me in -- in -- well, first to

the head of the jail, the German -- the German -- jail was German some -- the guards

and everything, all the administration was German. So when they sent -- they

brought me -- guard brought me on second floor, and put me in some -- opened some

door, and there were three or four prisoners, and they were criminals, you know, for

crimes, various crimes. And so I knocked the door back and said this guard to

return. What? I am political prisoners, I can be not --

Q: With them, right.

A: --I--Ishould be separately, not with the criminals. So, let's go to the head of the

jail. So you know, the guy said -- German said, well, I don't have room. This is your

problem, not mine. After spending, you know, years in tortures of Gestapo and a

year in a concentration camp, that was, for me, like sanitorium, you know, not jail.

Q: Yeah.

A: And that -- besides that, I noticed that the Germans didn't know what to do with

me. Political prisoners of his majesty, King of England. Because this was -- I was

political prisoner.

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 168

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: So here I got the two number from Auschwitz, so they know what Auschwitz

was. So they were completely lost, Germans.

Q: And did you --

A: And at the same time, they were still the beginning of occupation, they didn't

know what will happen to them, you know. So, they didn't know what to do with

me.

Q: So what did they do?

A: Well, they sent me, as I said, to the -- to [indecipherable] get back. So -- so they

-- he walk me back on the second floor and put me -- left me on the corridor. So I

was walking from one window on the one end of the building, to next window on

the next end of the building. You know, the cells were on the sides, and I walked --

Q: Back and forth.

A: -- back and forth. So finally, they open -- they open -- they clear some cell, and

they walk me in. And, okay -- alone. So -- and I look at the w -- the walls, and walls

of -- always in jails are full of var -- various prisoners left some abo -- you know,

about them or some -- some -- wrote something. And among all the Germans, it was

one in Polish. Translating it, here -- here was the name and ad -- and last name and

first name, for -- because he'd get away chicken from German farmer.

Q: Because he stole a chicken from a German farmer.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 169

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: He take away, because --

Q: He took it away.

A: -- Germans took his chicken. He had a little farm, and Germans took his chicken.

Q: Okay.

A: So when he was sent to Germany, he --

Q: Took a chicken.

A: -- [indecipherable] so he get this chicken -- chicken from German farmers. Well,

they arrested him that he steal, you know.

Q: Okay.

A: I thought that was the --

Q: And so the story was on the wall?

A: And the story was on the wall.

Q: Wall, yeah.

A: So -- and then they come -- he -- that guard came again. And again we went

downstairs to the office. And this -- the guy in charge of the jail, the head of the jail,

ask me if I -- he -- if I consider that they treat me badly or something. I say no. I got

no-nothing. You do your job, I understand that. I am st -- all prisoners, you know, so

I know things. And he said, because you know, because the -- we have some

problem here, maybe we -- you can help us. He 0 -- he open -- not open the window, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 170

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

but the curt -- curtain, you know. And there was thousands of Poles that the jail,

they learn I was publishing this little bulletin, so they know -- the news spread that

Germans arrested our editor.

Q: The Germans or the British arrested --

A: Well, they didn't know, the British, that the German arrested --

Q: Arrested our editor.

A: --and I am in jail. So they -- thousands of them came to jail. And the German

guide was a fr -- they didn't know, you know, beginning of occupation, they didn't

know what will happen.

Q: What to do, yeah

A: What will happen. So -- so I said, no problem. So I went with the guard to the --

th-the -- the gate, the -- on big -- at the end of-- the entrance to the jail, was little, you

know, like a veranda, or whatever you call it. And so some few people walk in,

delegation, and so I told them, no the Germans, the British. And so

[indecipherable]. Well, they will bring me food, dinner here, if --

Q: Okay.

A: Well, I said, there's not my -- so the guard went to it and say oh yes --

Q: You are allowed to get -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 171

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- allowed meat, or get this food from them. So we are -- we are wis -- I was

sitting -- guard was sitting, but guard was waiting -- watching if the British --

Q: Don't see.

A: -- the Americans don't come.

Q: Okay.

A: You know. And I was sitting with this delegation talking, while this thing, and

then later they brought me good food, you know, they make then dinner. And so I --

there's dinner, and I told you, and don't make trouble, because they are not deciding

that, the -- the Americans are deciding --

Q: I thought you said the British are deciding it.

A: British are deciding that, yeah.

Q: So what, I -- and this was in Seesen, a -- a town --

A: Seesen, a little town Seesen.

Q: Seesen.

A: S --s-e-s -- two -- double e, n.

Q: Okay.

A: Seesen.

Q: And so what did -- what happened? Did the -- what did the British do?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 172

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Well, next day -- ne -- while I sleep overnight in the jail, next day again British

came, and they pick me up on Jeep, and we went to villa in this town -- I became to

know this town because of that, among other things. A nice villa, leading -- on the

road leading to this good -- Harz mountains. This road we walk, it is dead march

few -- couple weeks before. And --

Q: How life changed.

A: Yeah. And to villa, and there was the British some -- I don't know what

[indecipherable] probably the secret service, or whatever they have -- and some

Russian -- White Russian, who left Russia when the Bolshevik took over the power.

Q: Okay.

A: And so he settle in Germany, and in German language he was translating. And

when I learn that he is Russian, I told him I am not going to answer, because I don't

trust Russians. And ru -- honestly.

Q: Yeah, okay. And --

A: And so -- so he told that this English guy, and this English guy, according to him,

translator, if not, they don't have any Polish interpreter, so I will sit in jail. My

answer was, | sit two years in Germans, so I can sit also in British.

Q: Min-hm. Jail.

A: Jail.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 173

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: And -- and so, what happened?

A: They walk me back to jail.

Q: And they couldn't find --

A: And I know that they have interpreter --

Q: Of course.

A: -- because in the camp which I was living, and pu-publishing this little bulletin,

was family named Grabowska(ph) from Poznan, but they were kicked out in 1939

to Warsaw, so they -- after the Warsaw uprising, they were in Germany. And the

daughter study English before the war at the University of Poznan. And she was

working in the office of British general, commander of the occupied part of this

territory. So she was working this -- in Polish-English interpreter. So I know her

because this family, this -- her mother practically save my life, because when we get

-- we get [indecipherable] in this, you know, people get very hungry. So I just

happened, by accident that I get to them. And she told me, no, no, I will s -- feed

you. So she wouldn't let me eat, you know, any f-- meat or any fat stuff, chicken

soup or something, but she prepare something, or -- or, you know --

Q: Right.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 174

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- something else, because she know that -- and some prisoners, like myself, get --

they eat whatever, they got it and they were hungry, they eat too much, and they

went -- they died.

Q: Yeah, they died. Their systems couldn't take it.

A: The system cannot take it, because system was not prepared for, for a long time.

Q: So -- so -- so you're back in this prison, you know they have a Polish interpreter,

then what ha --

A: Yes.

Q: -- then what happens?

A: So I didn't told him. He's the [indecipherable] he's the power, I am not.

Q: Okay.

A: So they want me back to -- you know. After the Gestapo, after the tortures, and

the concentration camp, and this situation was like sanitorium, you know.

Q: Yeah.

A: So, they took me back and few hours -- couple hours later, they come to pick me

up. And they walk me to same room, same villa, and here in place of the Russian, is

Bouzhayna(ph) Grabowska(ph), this Polish interpreter.

Q: Yeah. Then what were their questions?

A: Well, the question was that I am Nazi.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 175

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: That you're Nazi?

A: Yes.

Q: And why would you be a Nazi?

A: Because I wrote that Stalin is not better than Hitler, and Stalin, Uncle Joe is the

best friend, you know.

Q: Okay. Okay, and so they ask you -- what do they ask you?

A: Well, they ask me an -- so then this tattoo number of my arms, that I was in

concentration camp. You know, this British, he didn't know it the beginning, but

the Bouzhayna(ph) Grabowska(ph) explained to him that this is tattoo number

from Auschwitz, concentration camp Auschwitz. Well, he know, already hear

something about concentration camp Auschwitz, so he was confused, you know.

And he start, you know, beginning; name, born, and this -- parents and all this. Form

-- formal things, and then what was -- what I was doing during the war, and so on.

So I wi-- was telling him. And then we start talking about this problem of Nazi and

--and so Uncle Joe. So I tell him point blank, maybe these -- it -- he is your friends,

but he is not our friends. I was in Polish military 1939. We fought Germans, and we

were -- we were hit in the back by Stalin, by Soviets. So for me, Stalin is not better

than Hitler. And nobody will convince me that this is not so.

Q: And so, what did he do?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 176

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: So, the things change into discussion about politics, foreign relations in -- in

Europe, you know. And because I was good in history, and always interested in

politics, so I know quite a bit about it. Probably more than him. And --

Q: Probably.

A: And so he start discussion, and that. So then finally, I was smoking, you know,

so I ask him if I can sm-smoke. He says okay. So I si-- I had Canadian Pall Mall,

very good cigarettes, and he got some British, very lousy cigarettes, I know that --

them, too. So -- so he smoked -- he pulled his, and I s -- so we smoke our cigarettes.

And then we start talking. After a while I again ask him where I can si-- fr -- smoke,

okay. So I pull, and I si--

Q: Offer him.

A: -- give him -- offer him cigarettes. He took it, and he says, you got good

cigarettes. And so we smoked cigarettes. So the -- then into -- you know, friendly

conversation. Then -- and then he said -- tell me there's no -- I can't -- I know there's

no mi-mis -- misconce -- mis -- not misconception, misleading, something like that.

Q: Misunderstanding?

A: Misunderstanding. But I cannot do it, I can only [indecipherable] I just make a

report, and they will decide, the highers-up will decide. And then, from this

Bouzhayna(ph) Grabowska(ph) who was interpreter with the general office, day The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 177

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

or two days later, I learn from her that this, what I wrote about, Stalin, Hitler, you

know, not better, it went to Polish representative in town -- town about 40

kilometers north, where was Polish mission. The mission of the Polish communists,

you know.

Q: Oh, of the Polish communists.

A: The Polish communist government, you know --

Q: Okay.

A:-- mission. About 40 kilometers, and they get this, my bulletin, with this terrible

Q: Comparison.

A: -- comparison, you know. So naturally they send this -- rush to their superiors in

Warsaw, and they to Moscow. So the Bouzhayna(ph) learned that it went from

Moscow to London, and from London to -- because this guy [indecipherable] told

me tho -- there was -- the commander of the occupied forces, British occupied

forces. So -- so next day or so, they took me again, and he told me that I am free.

And I said well, how I will get home these 14 kilometer, no trains nothing.

Q: Yeah.

A: Oh, there's no problem, we can -- and so she told me that -- oh, he -- he -- this was

misunderstanding or something like that, and so ga -- ga -- gra -- Bouzhayna(ph) The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 178

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

learned that it went to commander of the Rhine army, the British so-call Rhine

army, that was the name of the Rhine army, and it get to this guy, inter -- they

arrested him.

Q: Oh, it get to the guy who arrested you --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- to begin with.

A: Yeah.

Q: And so it went from the Polish communist 40 miles north, to Warsaw, to

Moscow, to London --

A: To London, and from London back to Germany.

Q: And then the -- that's how you had gotten arrested?

A: Yes. So little devil never was angel.

Q: Interesting though. Very interesting, you know.

A: Well, it was interesting that -- that --

Q: And was the war over by this point?

A: Oh yes, yeah.

Q: Yeah?

A: Yeah, there was occupation already.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 179

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay, because when you were reli -- when you were freed, the war was still on.

It was just that you were liberated.

A: Well, yes, but not t-too long. Shortly after th-the -- it was -- the war was over.

Q: Okay. And how long did you stay in a DP camp?

A: Well, I don't know. I was moving from one to a next one. So finally I moved to

-- well, because after th -- I was arrested by the British of this bulletin, they told me I

cannot publish any more. So I told him, how about freedom of press, you know?

Q: That's right.

A: And he told -- he told me, this is in England, not in occupied Germany. Here, 0

-- here the law is given by the commander of Rhine army. This is -- I learned the

official name of the army, occupied army, British army. So I went to British -- to

American zone.

Q: Okay.

A: So they -- they was not right now, but in the spring of 1946, group of Polish

journalists, and this paper even we get in British zone once in while, weekly,

"Polska" was the title. Very well edited, and so on, in Ludwigsburg. And I'm --I

met somebody, became friends, who was also interested in journalist, and he has

wife, and they got little child. And so we were in the camp, that was bad situation,

and we got no food, we -- and so on, but there was no life, no -- so he went, and he The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 180

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

knew the editor of this ed -- ed -- so, he says, and they are not in Ludwigsburg, they

are in Eppstein town, as he learned, his chief editor is little town north of

Frankfurt, and they publish in Ludwigsburg because in Ludwigsburg is

[indecipherable] which have Polish accent, you know. And so he went to visit with

them, and he spent about two or three days. He return back and says to me, we both

-- we are going, they will accept us. Me and -- and you. And okay, I was happy. So --

but he is going to stay in Eppstein town is where they got -- they rented from

Germans, little hotel. And Eppstein town as -- is not large, not all mountains --

range of mountains is north of Frankfurt am Main, the largest is -- is about 8-900

meters. So there's about 2,700 or so feet. But nice territory. And they r-r-rented one,

this hotel -- hotel in those mountains, in this little town, and paid Germans with

food, with cigarettes and so on. And they call it po -- house of Polish journalists.

There were few of them, couple with wives. So he is going to live in this house of

Polish journalists, and I am going to Ludwigsburg to help the editor who make the

pages, and [indecipherable] news, and print over there, get --

Q: Okay.

A: -- and get to print this thing. So -- and it was very good school, because this guy,

he was very good. He was consider one of the arts in making pages, you know.

Make layered of pages.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 181

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Right.

A: He was very good in that. And so I got good school with him. So I went there.

Well, not too long, my birthday was June 15, but I'd-- in Poland they -- we don't

tra -- celebrate birthday, but names day.

Q: Right.

A: And names day is 24, June 24. So I--I prepare a birthday party with this --- my

fellow editor, my mentor. And he was married, and was not a guy for cigarettes. I

got dinner in German farmer's home. Germ -- from German farmer's ho -- good

dinner, you know, in farm. And so we were preparing, and we were printing in mo-

morning, the weekly. And here we got, I don't know, a few thousand ready, and the

ger -- the American [indecipherable] stop the press. They -- whatever was printed,

they get the ink, you know, and spread, so we cannot --

Q: Pull it.

A: --we cannot use them any more, send them to nobody. And not -- they don't

know -- because we were Nazi -- Nazi.

Q: Because you're Nazis?

A: Nazi. So, well, no other solution. So the guy, this editor, my mentor, as I said,

very good. He was married, so he got already some room in the village there,

Germans. So he stay, he didn't want to go back, because they don't -- the place was The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 182

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

full, this little hotel was full, and so he stayed over there. But I went there, back.

They told me to come back. So I went back, and no, that is it. But shortly after, w-

we were consider a small camp. There were altogether us about 13 - 14 people,

because couples, and there were some married, two or three that were --

Q: All journalists, or families -- and families.

A: -- couple were married. They were -- one woman, she was -- she was not the

journalist, but she was very useful because she was drawing, you know.

Q: Right.

A: And so she was helpful, very -- like the first page, you know, especially some

drawing on first page. And so 12 - 13 people. We were consider a small camp. And

UNRRA, this international organization which supply food for the displaced person

camps, we -- supply us with food, with -- with clothing, and whatever they have.

And they notify us because we are Nazi, we are taking -- they don't supply us any

more. So we went as Germans, thousand calories a day, but we have to buy that

food, and we have no money, bu -- from where? Buy the food from Germans. So it

was quite --

Q: So there was the Americans now -- instead of the British, it was the American

MP?

A: Americans, because Uncle Joe Stalin, they were Uncle Joe -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 183

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: -- you know, Uncle Joe. And so it was bad situation. So we get some money, and

we get th-the -- in we -- they -- two, three times a -- a week, we got herring, because

they went to buy from the barrels, you know. They were cheap, and so with

potatoes, we have dinner [indecipherable] because we cannot afford to

[indecipherable]

Q: And you like herring.

A: I like, so it was no-not bad for me. I --I got nothing against, but these others

didn't like it.

Q: I want to -- I want to summarize this a little bit. What you're saying is that you

worked on a weekly Polish newspaper.

A: Yeah.

Q: And that Polish newspaper was also again critical of the Soviet Union --

A: Yes.

Q: -- and eventually the American MPs come and close it down, accusing you of

being Nazis, so you can't publish the paper any more.

A: No.

Q: And the reason that you're giving is that the influence of the Soviets -- that is, as

you put it, Uncle Joe, reached into the American zone. And -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 184

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Look --

Q: Okay.

A: --the Americans at that time, American opinion, American press, Mr. Roosevelt

were all full of praise to [indecipherable]. American soldiers, I hear from

American soldiers, Uncle Joe.

Q: Okay.

A: They do -- they didn't tell -- they didn't talk about Stalin otherwise but Uncle

Joe. Well, you have to admit that Soviet army break -- broke -- broke the power of

Hitler. That is not question about that.

Q: Okay.

A: But they did not do that because they were against Hitler, or because they love

Americans. But Hitler attacked them, and they have -- Stalin had no choice,

surrendered, or fo -- fight. So he decided to fight. And now American and British

jump to help him, and a -- not just help him, but embrace him. And the communist

propaganda took over press and everything in England and in brit -- Great Britain,

and in everywhere else. And therefore, Stalin was Uncle Joe.

Q: All right. So, when the Americans closed you down, the American military

authorities --

A: Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 185

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: -- do you believe they were doing it because you were -- you were being not only

critical, but you were attacking an ally of theirs?

A: Well, this is what they told us, that we are Nazis, because we are working to

break the alliance, you know, spread between the -- the get --

Q: Dissension between the a --

A: Dissension between allies. This was the -- th-th-the reason.

Q: And they didn't understand, or they didn't see a difference that you were coming

from Poland, and had your own experience.

A: No, they don't understand that, and as I said, I was in Polish army when we

fought Germans, and we were attacked for Soviets. So I had on my back proof, and

what I believe it is right. But they didn't know that. Well, as I said, you have to

admit that the Soviet army really broke the power of Hitler army.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: You know.

Q: Okay.

A: The ar -- th-- Normandy would be probably two years later, and with il -- will

cost thousands more of lives, American, British lives, if not the Soviet's army. That

is true. But as | said, th-they don't fight, because for -- because they were against, or

something, but they had no choice -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 186

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: -- because Hitler attacked them and --

Q: Okay.

A: -- and they -- and they --

Q: But what I'm getting at, or what I want to try and clarify is, the first time that

your little newspaper, that you published yourself --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- then you are arrested in the British zone.

A: Yeah.

Q: The reason why you were arrested is that it went to the Polish communists, it

went to Warsaw, it went to --

A: No, well they -- you know, because the communists took that --

Q: Yes, yes.

A: -- you know, th -- they were not too far away.

Q: Yeah, let me finish the question.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. That it went -- that -- and in -- one could make the argument that it was

Soviet influence that made your arrest happen, because it went from the Polish The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 187

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

communists, to Warsaw, to Moscow, to London, to Germany, and you would be

arrested by the Brits, yes?

A: Well, the British didn't know, they don't read Polish, so they would not know

what I am writing there.

Q: Okay.

A: So, it went, you know, this way, and to embassy -- Soviet embassy in London, to

the British government, and British government to the commander of Rhine army,

and so on. That was the --

Q: Okay, but one can make the argument that it was Soviet influence, Soviet

pressure.

A: Yes, yes, yeah.

Q: The second time, when the Americans come and close down this newspaper,

would it be Soviet pressure, or would it be that the Americans don't want to offend

the Soviets and do it on their own?

A: Well, that was -- it was not direct -- it was not, you know, through the diplomatic

channels, you know.

Q: Okay.

A: It was probably some higher-ups in American government in -- occupying forces The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 188

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: --and this UNRRA, who take the --

Q: Rations away.

A: -- rations for us. We learn later this director of UNRRA, in this American zone,

was American communist.

Q: Ah, okay.

A: You know.

Q: Okay.

A: So, you know, the politics, it -- it has various quite interesting angles.

Q: Yes, yes. And so your paper is closed, and you have no rations.

A: No rations, yeah.

Q: So what happens?

A: So what happened? As I said, we got herrings. I didn't mind my -- I didn't mind

--I like herrings. But not -- a couple weeks later -- well, Polish -- there was a large

Polish army in the west, in Italy, from those who -- Poles who were in Soviet

Union, taken to Soviet Union, and when war break out, Stalin release them --

Q: Right.

A: -- and they form this second Polish [indecipherable] what fought at Monte

Cassino, and so on, and there was -- before that there was Polish [indecipherable], The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 189

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

a division which participated in Normandy, and occupy northwestern Germany. It

was Polish air forces which have great part in this battle of Britain -- air battle, and

the participation of Polish units, and on British airplanes --

Q: Right.

A: -- naturally. But with Polish [indecipherable] and also Polish pilots on British

airplane. They got -- they got more planes than pilots.

Q: Got it.

A: And so they participated and they really -- the British now, they also admit that,

that the -- they aro -- they won the battle of Britain with -- the air battle with Britain

wi--- on -- for Britain, and the Poles participated greatly in that. And so -- so this

was --

Q: So di--so, in other words, what di -- what significance did that have on the fact

that your paper was closed? Did du -- did it influence it?

A: Well, you mean th --

Q: Yeah, I -- okay, here -- let me go back. I asked you, after the paper was closed,

what happened. And then you mentioned --

A: What happened --

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 190

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- well, so they took away -- arrest you, and so on -- and but couple weeks later,

one day there was Polish major from the Polish army in Great Britain, I think he

was in intelligence unit, he joined us. And some -- quite often in civilian clothing, he

was going somewhere, and so on. We didn't ask him, but he was -- it was good to

have military person, officer major with -- so, e-even Germans, you know, we got

different situation there. So, he was in uniform, going somewhere, and we had this,

our poor dinner -- poor lunch rather, at noon, when it was on the hill, and

[indecipherable] road, it go -- goes like that, and through the window we saw some

trucks coming. Well, truck, to us. No, nothing else was there, only our hotel. So

here it came, the truck from the Polish second corps in Italy, which, there was over

80,000 Polish soldiers who took this Monte Cassino and so on. And so Major walk

out, and from the -- from the truck walks some sergeant in Polish uniform, report,

give him piece of paper. [indecipherable] of Polish soldiers in Italy, to Polish

journalists discriminated by allies. Honestly, it was this wording.

Q: Wow.

A: You know.

Q: Wow, so the news spread.

A: And so we got -- we get whole truck full of ra -- po -- si-- meat, those various c-

cons -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 191

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Conserves.

A: -- cons -- conserves.

Q: Well, canned foods, canned foods.

A: Canned food, then th -- then the macaroni, and all different kind of food. So, we

had supply for several weeks.

Q: Tell me, what was the name of this newspaper that was closed down?

A: "Polska."

Q: Just "Polska?"

A: Yes, "Polska."

Q: And that means?

A: And that is an interesting thing, that was happen in summer, and in December,

this -- our major, who was already formally with us, and the chief editor get letter

that they should report in American government occupied forces in Wiesbaden, not

far from where we live. So, okay, right after noon, one o'clock. So, we got to --

some fellow who had already car, and he was our chauffeur, you know. And so he --

they went with this guy to bi-- Wiesbaden. And after noon we had the sup -- dinner

of the evening, and they didn't show up. So what happened? Are -- they were

arrested, or what? So finally, we saw light, you know, coming, car was coming. So,

nobody probably didn't find it. So we all wek -- wo -- wake and get -- get out from The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 192

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

the -- the restaurant of this hotel was our dining room, you know. And so it was

room for parking car, so the car arrived there, and our [indecipherable] he was

quite heavy fellow, he was on front seat. He walk out drunk like hell.

Q: Drunk like a fish.

A: This -- this paper, license number one to publish a paper.

Q: Really?

A: Yes. The politics in Washington change, and we, from Nazis, became the first s

--well, friends. And we got number first, first nu -- first license to publish a paper.

And between -- be-between Christmas and new yer -- new year, in "46, we publish

the first issue of "Kronika," weekly paper, under title "Kronika."

Q: Wow.

A: And that was published already in -- in Frankfurt because there was a -- th-they

find the print shop in Frankfurt with Polish accent.

Q: So that means with Polish diacritic?

A: Diacritic, yeah.

Q: So that means between Christmas and New Year's, 1945?

A: 1946.

Q: 1946. So a year and a half after the war ends.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 193

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Yes, and -- and few months after they close, they arrested, you know, and

everything else.

Q: So -- and what was the name of your very first paper, the one that you just

published by yourself?

A: "Biuletyn," "Biuletyn."

Q: "Biuletyn."

A: Yeah.

Q: And just that.

A: Just that.

Q: And wi -- and you signed your --

A: "Biuletyn Polski."

Q: Bol -- "Biuletyn Polski?"

A: Yeah.

Q: And you had signed your name to it?

A: Yes.

Q: And the other one was "Polska?"

A: "Polska."

Q: Does "Polska" stand for Poland?

A: Yes.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 194

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: This is Polish name wis -- our country is Polska.

Q: Okay, Polska.

A: Yeah, and -- but then "Kronika."

Q: Then "Kronika."

A: Yeah, but there was -- too bad that there was Dr. Rabic(ph), he was doctor of

something, politic science or something like that. All tha -- all journalists, very good

journalists, matter of fact.

Q: How many issues of "Kronika" did you publish?

A: I don't know, we published that until 1949.

Q: Oh, a good three years.

A: Seven, eight, two years -- about two and a half.

Q: Two and a half years.

A: Yeah, because when the Germany became inde -- you know, by --

Q: Semi-independent.

A: -- semi-independent, and the deutschemark -- the new mark became valuable, we

have to close the paper because our readers don't have money to buy the paper.

Q: Okay. What kind of circulation did you have?

A: Oh, I don't remember now that.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 195

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: How many did you print?

A: We print probably 25 - 30,000.

Q: And it was every week?

A: Every week, yeah.

Q: Okay. And you never had anybody visit you again and arrest you, or call you

Nazis?

A: Oh no, no, no. That was all be -- already on the license with the government

occupied forces, you know.

Q: Okay, okay. So --

A: And the pilot exchange, you know. We from Nazis became friends. Cold War

started.

Q: Yeah.

A: The [indecipherable] politics is very interesting.

Q: Well, how interesting, how -- how your identity changes. You were Nazis and

now you're not.

A: Yes, I was Nazi with --

Q: With a thing from Auschwitz.

A: -- with a number from Auschwitz, you know.

Q: Yeah. So, in mid-1949, the paper stopped because of the currency.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 196

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Yeah. Currency, we can't afford it, you know.

Q: So what did you do? What happened in your life?

A: Well, in the -- shortly after I came to the United States, I get contact with my

mother, her sister in chica -- in Posen, south of Chicago. And so we start to

corresponded. And matter of fact, one of the cousin came to me in Eppstein in this

-- when I was in this paper there. One day, some American soldiers on Jeep came,

and soldiers get out and ask for me in Polish. So I get out. Roman. He was son of

my aunt from Posen, serving in the American military. And so he get from her

mother my address, and so he came to visit me.

Q: Isn't that a ma -- your first cousin.

A: My first cousin, yeah.

Q: Yeah. When you came to the United States, how did you support yourself?

A: Well, I came to my aunt, and -- but I don't want to be supported by anybody, so I

tried to do some -- anything to work. Well, first week or two in the family, there was

my uncle here, and so on, so it was a lot of parties going on, drinking and so on. But

then -- so I start first my job, I had -- I was unloading tomatoes. There was factory

producing ketchup. And when the season started -- so I work at night 12 hours, for

night. Hour for lunch at no -- at midnight, unloading trucks, boxcars from railroad,

and so unloading them to the factory, as go. That was for the first time. Then I work The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 197

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

in the -- in the outfit which repaired boxcars that -- railroad t -- railroad cars. But then

I got -- just about lost my eye because the spark from --

Q: From one of the wheels, or something?

A: Not wheels, the -- no, how you call it? The guy li-- I was walking between two

boxcar, and he opened the torch, you know.

Q: Ah, okay.

A: Torch, and the spark j-jump. And so they took me to a doctor, and I get home

with bandage my -- my eye. My aunt said, no more. I don't want you to lose your

eye here. We got sa -- to eat sa -- we got enough to eat. Well, I cannot sit home, it is

not wi-with my nature. And so, through my uncle, I get job at Canfield's(ph)

beverage company in Chicago. It was -- you have to drive -- not drive really, didn't

have car, but take buses, you know, two buses to get there. And so I was working

on the yard, they call it. It-- from noon. So there was various -- one of -- every day

[indecipherable] of time take, it was to sort enough bottles. Drivers brought and --

gave this wooden bo-boxes, you know, with bottles, and th-they are mixed up,

white and green, because in tavern, or in s -- in store, if they give to the -- he don't

look the white or -- or green bottles, he put in the case --

Q: Whatever.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 198

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- whatever, so there were white and green. And we sort them out, because green

were ginger ale. All other -- lemonade -- all other drinks were in white --

Q: Bottles.

A: -- white bottles. And only ginger ale was green, so we sort enough so they can go

to production and -- and know where. And then later we work to load the trucks

with full cases of -- of those drinks, help drivers to -- help to -- help -- help drivers to

load this -- his trucks, so he put where he want, according to his schedule, you

know, first go first and so on. He knows what he got next stop, next day, what he

have to deliver, and to who. And so that was again interesting American story. One

day Mr. Canfield junior, who run the factory, his father established that -- he came

every day for a few -- for a few hours to office, and get chauffeur and so on, but A-

Art Canfield was running the business. And one day he walk, and talk to the

workers. And he came to me, I know few words in English, so what nationality?

Polish. Oh hey -- hey Joe, that was next truck, I know the guy, Joe Horanian(ph), I

still remember his name, truck driver, and he was Polish. Bo-Born here, but speak

Polish and English. So he came as interpreter, so Canfield said -- a-ask me what I

was doing in Germany. | said, a concentration camp. What you -- when you came

here? Forty-nine -- that was -- that was 1950, or sa-- 1950 probably A-April, March, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 199

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

April, something like that. So I was -- what I was doing from 45 to "49. So I said, I

was in -- in newspaper, Polish newspaper. Yeah, I was, really --

Q: Mm-hm, yeah.

A: -- in this -- in this "Kronika." So, said, what are you doing here? I says, well, it

has the way of make living. One work, and next one they had ways to steal. I don't

want steal, so I got no other choice but to work. So he says, John, you okay. Okay.

Next day, the girl came from the office, they called me to the of -- main office. So I

went there, there was the telephone operator. She was of Polish origin, so speak --

she speak English and Polish. And so he asked me if I drive. I di--I didn't. Do you

know anything about motors, cars, [indecipherable] trucks? No. You want to

learn? I said, I learn many thing, so maybe I can learn that too. Okay, tomorrow

start in the garage as a mechanic helper. This was my career, and I became

mechanic helper, and then I became mechanic. I have to join the union. But when I

learn English [indecipherable] I decided to follow my journalist dreams. So I

register at Loyola University for political science as background for journalist. And

I went to Mr. Canfield(ph) because I have to, twice a week, quit sooner. Four

o'clock I have to quit, change, and go to -- for six o'clock -- six o'clock --

Q: Classes.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 200

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: -- classes at the Loyola Univers -- they had main ca -- in this downtown campus,

across the old water tower in Chicago here. So -- and Mr. Canfield says, well, it

would be hard for us sometimes, because you know, [indecipherable] broke

something, so we go to repair on the streets, sometimes far away, even. But, that is

important to you, so he let me go. He let me do that. And so, after sometimes, four

years or so, I finally get job in Polish -- one of the Polish newspaper, as assistant

editor, for very little in comparison with what I was making as -- as journalist. But I

wa --

Q: You mean as a mechanic.

A: As a mechanic.

Q: Yeah, okay.

A: Yeah, and so -- but short -- after sometimes, I get my Bachelor's degree from

Loyola, and I quit this paper because I don't like politics of this paper. And I get

job, very interesting, in Cook county by true friend of mine, was involved in pal --

Republican party, and he gave me job in his [indecipherable] he was

[indecipherable] at this time Republican elected, and as a bailiff Cook county jail.

Q: You were a bailiff in --

A: Court, in court.

Q: Court.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 201

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: I mean, in court. So the job was to bring prisoner to si -- to the court -- they -- it

was no problem because there was tun-tun-tunnel from the jail to -- to the court.

And then sit, keep him in the room there, and walk him out to the court, and sit

behind him to make sure that he didn't jump --

Q: Right.

A: -- you know, on -- on judge, and so on. So it was interesting because we had

many cases, you know.

Q: Yeah, sure.

A: Interesting cases. Then they changed swise -- switch -- cha-changed me to social

worker, which was even more in-interesting; social worker in jail.

Q: Oh my goodness.

A: Yeah. Very interesting job. Then they turn me to -- switch me to women, because

I was oldest of the social workers, so they came to conclusion that I will se -- P'll be

more safe -- safer than some younger guys. And very interesting job, I learn many

interesting situation in the life people have, problems and so on.

Q: And when did you come to work again as a journalist? You told me earlier you

worked for 17 years --

A: Yes.

Q: -- for a major Polish daily. Tell me about that -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 202

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: As the chief editor.

Q: As chief editor.

A: So Ica --as I said, I came here, I worked for -- in the Polish daily paper as

assistant editor, but I don't like that, I quit, I work in jail, then in this --

Q: Social work.

A: -- social worker in jail, then before that, three years for -- in court as a bailiff.

And then friend of mine, who give me those jobs in the court, became -- he was

elected -- I work with him for several years -- he was elected president of Polish

National Alliance. And when he was elected poli-- then president, and the Polish

National Alliance owns a newspaper. And there was editor for many years, he was

old already, he want to retire, but he was friend of the pres -- pre-president of the

organization, and they s -- his friend asked him to keep the job, how long he is

president. So when he lost the election, so he retired -- this guy retired, and my

[indecipherable] was elected president, nominated me chief editor of the paper

then. I was already working some four years before in different paper, so I know

Poland -- Pol-Polish community already, the -- quite good, and the United States,

the politics and so on, because I study political science, I participated in some

elections, I have some very good friends among politician. Yeah, one of them was

Congressman Darwinski(ph). Republican, very smart fellow, very good, very The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 203

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

honest man. He was for 24 or 28 years congressman. Then I was in campaign of

Senator Percy(ph), he wa -- he was not senator when he first time ran -- ran for -- for

senate. So I was in the -- you know, in his campaign staff. So -- so I was quite

prepared for --

Q: Active, yeah.

A: -- running the paper, you know.

Q: So tell me, what year did you start, and what year did you finish?

A: I--I fin--I worked 17 years. I finish the beginning of January, 1985.

Q: Oh, so you -- that's when you finished.

A: Then I finished, and I retire. I was already 70 years -- 65 -- no, 66 years old.

Q: And now, 30 years later, it sounds to me like you're still going strong.

A: I don't know. I am still busy, I am still active. I was still writing for not too long

ago.

Q: Mm-hm. And as I understand, you also -- you also participate in the programs of

the Holocaust museum in Skokie.

A: Yes, yes.

Q: Tell me what you do there.

A: Lam do -- Iam so-called survivor. When -- when high school students go through

the museum, at the end they met survivor. So I am one of those survivors, and I am The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 204

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

--I think I am the only one non-Jew. Now I learn there's another Polish fellow. But,

they came to conclusion that those Jewish survivors sometimes they cannot tell

them much, because they were hid -- hidden somewhere by Poles, or by --

Q: Other people, yeah.

A: -- Dutch, or whatever nationality the ne -- country they were, an attic, or

somewhere, and they don't know much what was going on. The only thing that they

were there and somebody helped them to survive. So in Poland was death sentence

for the whole family for helping Jews. And I know one case not too far from my

village from -- through relatives and so on. It was really family with six children.

And they had two co -- dra -- Jewish cop. They got some on attic, you know, some --

they stay right there. And -- and they bring the food, you know, things like that. And

I don't know how they get -- the Germans get --

Q: The information.

A: -- the information, but anyway, one morning they -- German -- Gestapo plus

German police, surrounding their house. They get the Jews out, the whole family

out on the yard. They shoot the Jews, then the children, starting from the oldest, and

finishing on -- on -- on the youngest one, one year old, and then the parents. This the

way was in Poland for helping Jews. And that is true, there's not -- not story. It is

fact. And there were more facts like that, not too many, but -- but there were others.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 205

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

This I know through family, through -- because there was in village not far away

from the village where I was born.

Q: Tough. Tough.

A: Yeah, it was tough. And you know, so it is -- and only in po -- in other countries,

for sa -- helping Jew, there was concentration camp. I don't know why they got

maybe because there was the large -- the -- in Poland, there were three and a half

million Jews in Poland before the war, 10 percent of the population. And in

addition, they -- Poland was consider part of German lebensraum, the territory the

Germany needs to create thousand years empire.

Q: Yeah.

A: According to Hitler. Well, so they exterminate Poles, not as Jews, you know,

but because they were born. But they use any pre -- pretext to kill Poles. They -- but

two millions Poles were taken to Germany to work in factories, and on farms. After

the war bar -- there were about two million Poles in Germany. So, in any condition,

any pretext they have to kill, they did.

Q: How do you explain that you survived?

A: How do I explain? Well, I was lucky. That is probably the most important part. I

was young, I -- I was strong, and I was tough.

Q: Like you said in the beginning, there was a bit of a devil.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 206

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Little devil, you know, it was little devil, you know.

Q: Yeah.

A: Well, it was will to live. It was important. But not for any price. The price we

didn't want pay, it is to cooperate with Germans. And those who did, they were

sorry, and quite often, ended their life later. There was a case -- I don't know

personally, but it -- he wrote little book or -- or something, story, right aft -- shortly

after the war. He was a Jewish fellow, Jewish policeman in Jewish ghetto, in some

suburb of Warsaw. And he escorted his li -- his wife and beloved nine, 10 years old

daughter to the train going to Treblinka, to the gas chambers.

Q: I know the book.

A: Know -- you know --

Q: I know the book, it was "Otwock."

A: "Otwock," yes.

Q: It was se -- yes

A: Yes, "Otwock," yeah.

Q: "Otwock."

A: So you know what happened.

Q: Yeah.

A: You know.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 207

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

Q: So, I think we've come to the end of the road, as far as -- well, we never could,

we could talk for hours. I -- I have -- I have a --

A: That is -- that is for sure, really.

Q: [have a feeling that there --

A: You know, I lived 95 years --

Q: There's a lot to say.

A: -- so it is long live -- long lifes and lot of things happen.

Q: Yeah.

A: So I can talk 95 years.

Q: Good. But thank you for what you've shared with us today. I think that it's

amazing, packed in, and -- and thank you very much for all those memories and all

those experiences, and what you learned from those experiences. It is varied, it is

not -- it is not in one line. There's so many things that you've talked about today,

that were ironic, that you wouldn't expect, you know?

A: No, I didn't.

Q: Yeah, but -- and yet, they happened.

A: Yeah.

Q: And it's important for us to know these things. So, do you have any final

thoughts before we conclude our interview?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 208

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Well, I don't know what, what.

Q: Okay. Then, thank you.

A: You remember not to do the same thing again, but I don't believe in very --I--I

came to conclusion that humans are beasts, potential beasts.

Q: Yeah, potential.

A: Potential beasts.

Q: Potential.

A: Yeah. So I don't know if you can avoid that, you know. After the Holocaust, it

happened in many countries again, after -- until now.

Q: Yeah.

A: In many co -- places.

Q: Yeah.

A: Yeah, it happen in many places.

Q: Yeah.

A: So -- well, shoot, it is good to -- the young generation learn, so they, young

generation learn about. Because that -- it has some influence --

Q: Yes.

A: -- on them. I have -- I met some who don't believe in Holocaust. Jews.

Q: Who don't believe in the Holocaust?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 209

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

A: Holocaust, yeah. There was a book written by a Jewish fellow, I think from -- he

was in DePaul University, who wrote the book, it is a Holocaust business

[indecipherable]

Q: Ah, I know. It's Finkelstein(ph), I think.

A: Something like that, yeah.

Q: Like that, yeah, yeah.

A: And so I get --

Q: The Holocaust industry.

A: He -- Holocaust industry, yeah, yeah.

Q: That's what it was.

A: Yeah. And I -- before they got this building here in Skokie, they had -- they

rented. So it was a smaller place, and the room was for 60 chairs. So quite often we

have to go to some schools, you know, large group, and talk to them in school. So

that has some good part, because we c -- it depends on the school how much time I

get. Here I got half hours, you know. And over there, sometimes I get hour,

sometimes even more. But here they go through museum, so they learn about the

many things, you know, ghettos and things like that. Well, over there they don't do

that, so I have to mention about that. I don't -- I didn't know exactly what happened

in ghetto, because I was not there. I know quite a bit, but this is not the same thing.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 210

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

And so it -- I met some people, as I said, some teachers, who didn't believe it, and

one time, when we were going out, me -- sometimes teachers ask students to write

their impression. So I had several of those letters, I don't know, maybe close to

hundreds of them, and they sent later to me -- they sent to Holocaust museum, and

the mus -- museum to me. And there were one or two letters, Jewish money --

Jewish girl. She mentioned that, that she didn't believe [indecipherable] at home,

they didn't believe. But then, when she saw non-Jew, Polish Catholic, who was in

Auschwitz-Birkenau, and he got tattoo numbers, so he was there. And he said that

what happened to Jews, that they went directly to gas chambers, so he decide -- she

believe now.

Q: That's an am -- that is an amazing --

A: Yeah.

Q: That is an amazing transformation, and it shows the value of your showing --

A: Direct -- direct --

Q: Yes.

A: -- contact, you know.

Q: Yes.

A: I--I know it is important in Poland, for example, when I go to my high school,

the history teachers always grab me, and talk to students, you know, about. And The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 211

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

then I ask -- go talk to students, how what -- they said, well, you know, we learn that

from the book, from -- teachers told us and so on, but what, 70 years ago? For me,

what is the difference, 70 or 200 years?

Q: It's true.

A: You know.

Q: It's true.

A: This is what he -- exactly what that student told me. And here comes somebody

alive, who said that he was beat, that he was afraid, that -- you know, what happened

to him, and he told us wha -- it bring closer this whole history get closer to us.

Q: Which is also --

A: And this is my sense.

Q: This is true.

A: It makes sense.

Q: And this is why what you have shared with us today is so valuable, because

through this testimony, many, many people will be able to hear it, and many, many

people will be able to --

A: I don't know how many those things they've got already in Holocaust museum,

in schools, because I went to school, they call me, some schools; American schools,

some this Polish. Saturday, Polish language school, so they call me too, so I talk.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 212

Interview with John Krawiec

January 29, 2015

They put this on tape, or whatever, so it -- I don't know in how many ka -- how

many copies, it went through internet.

Q: And here's another one. All right.

A: And here's another one.

Q: Okay, so with this we conclude the United States Holocaust Memorial

Museum interview with Mr. Jan -- John --

A: Jan, John, doesn't mat --

Q: -- Krawiec -- Krawiec?

A: -- does not ma -- Krawiec.

Q: On January 29", 2015.

Conclusion of Interview

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.