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still in her apartment, but she ate by them and they took care of her. Then she didn't do anything. By the Germans if they started to take people to work, usually Rozia was not taken to work because she lived not in the town, this was in the outskirts and the Germans didn't go to catch Jews to work because they were mostly like Poles and they didn't take the Poles. So they didn't know if there are Jews. So she actually didn't go to work.

Q: Her uncles did?

A: Also no, because they were far away from the town. Her, only had one uncle, his name was Kila Schmidt, he was an elderly man and he was a very, very intelligent man with a grey beard.

He was taken from time to time. Only when the Poles showed the Germans that there are Jews living there. Because mostly they caught the Jews when it was a very concentration where the Jews were living. So he was brought to work and they humiliated him because he was an elderly man. And I remember one time they put on him like a bottle on his back and he had to take water and carry it in the bottle. One time they took a wagon and they harnessed him to the wagon instead of the horse and he had to pull the wagon and there were a few German soldiers were sitting on the wagon and they used to hit him that he should go faster. He was an old man.

So I remember a few times when the uncle was humiliated.

Q: And her uncle, did he live in town?

A: No he lived in the same house, the same place. Because they had two houses which belonged to this flourmill and the lumber yard. So they lived there and they were not thrown out yet in this time. And this house she lived with them and then when I came back I started to see her quite often, practically every day. And if she needed something I took care of it. And she lived there with the family "till June 1941, was established a ghetto in our town, so she was taken with the family to that ghetto. They got two rooms in a house in the ghetto and she lived with the two uncles, the aunts with their children in the ghetto.

Q: You were in the ghetto too?

A: I was in the ghetto too, so when in the ghetto, there was a different system. The Germans didn't go out and grab people, Jews from the houses in the streets to go to work, it was already organized. There was a Judenrat and the Judenrat had a list of all able-bodied Jews and they divided and they sent out cards what day each Jew had to work. This way not the same Jews should be called every day. So when it came to Rozia's time so she was notified and she went to work like other Jews went to work, cleaning houses by Germans, cleaning the streets, throwing away snow in the winter. She did all kinds of work the same way.

Q: Let me just check this.

A: O,K. Then we lived like this in the ghetto and then later I was taken away from the ghetto.

This was in January "42 which was already bad because every time the situation got worse so I had a mastoid, a middle ear infection, and they had to smuggle me out from the ghetto so she had to go with me with my younger sister to the hospital. But the day we had to go by sled in the very deep winter high snow, so she had trouble with her tonsils, she had high temperature, so she didn't go. But when I was in the hospital and I was operated, about two weeks later she came to this town to the big town, somehow she got a pass because you couldn't travel by train, you couldn't go out from the ghetto. We were in the ghetto. So she got a pass and she came to

me to the town where I was in the hospital and I think this was the most happiest day in this time that she arrived.

Q: You got sick with an ear infection and you were sent to Tarnov. I wasn't sent. I was with an ear infection over four weeks. Instead to take care, we didn't have nobody to take care and it got worse and worse until the whole pus went already to the brain and then we saw that there is no way. I was practically dead. So with a sled they took me out of the ghetto to ,toa bigger town and we came to and we came to , to a doctor, there was a specialist to an ear, nose and throat, Dr. Heller, and he said if I did not get an operation within two hours, three hours, I would be dead because the pus was already around my membrane, from the brain. So through, my brother went back home and finally they bribed somebody and we got a pass to go on the train, because to this town we had to go to Kracow, so two sisters went with me. On the train Poles wanted to throw me out from the running train. So they called the police and the police saw that we had legitimate passes, so the police said what do you want, they have legitimate passes because we got the passes. So the Poles said, nevertheless you have to throw them out because no Jews are allowed on the train. So we begged them, the police, we begged the police, we begged the police to let us stay "till the next station. Not to throw us out from a running train. They said I am almost dead. So the police said O.K., so we sent to the next station which was Tarnov, this was half way from us to Kracow and they took us down, they had to carry me to some friends, because I was almost dead. And there was a hospital and luckily in Tarnov, there was a doctor, and his name was David Robinovitch. He used to be the head of a very famous hospital in Lodz but the name of the hospital was and he was a specialist, ear, throat, nose. So when they brought me over to him, he said he doesn't think he can do anything to me, that it is too late because I was already with this ear infection for about four or five weeks and the pain was so that people cannot imagine how that pained. So he said we have nothing what to lose we have to have an operation right away. And he took him about six hours and he operated me and he said to my sisters, he said I made the operation but ninety-nine percent he wouldn't wake up. And if he would even wake up all his mouth would be crooked or his eyes he wouldn't see or his ears, because it was impossible because everything was already full with pus. Anyway when I woke up after eight days when he took off the bandages I can hear on this ear better than on the other one. The eyes are good, the mouth is good. He was a genius that he made this operation, and then a few days later, Rozia came. When she came naturally I was very happy and I was in this town, in Tarnov, I was February, March, "till April 20 or April 12, 1942, because until he had to clean. Meanwhile she was with me all the time and then she had always trouble with her tonsils, so she complained so the doctor said once you are here he operated, he took out her tonsils. Now he wanted money, but from Rozia he didn't want a penny, because from me we had to pay him a lot of money for the operation and for Rozia he said he would do the operation without money. So we asked him how come. He said well when you came and you started to tell me stories and your sisters, so I could get money out from you. With Rozia she had nobody, her mother died, her father, sister and brother were in Russia, where would she have money. So I need people like you, they should pay me for people who cannot pay me. So I do operations for free. So he operated on Rozia and took off her tonsils, she shouldn't owe us because every few months he had infections in the tonsils and we came home both together.

Q: So when was it you went back to Kollupzowa?

A: So we came back from this town, from this hospital, we came back to Kollupzowa. When we came back, the ghetto was all together changed, we couldn't recognize the ghetto. It was

already so far, the gates were closed and April 28, the Gestapo came in, they shot my father, they shot this time 22 Jews, and they had a list of 22 Jews and my father was between them and then later everything went down, every day was worse, there were killings and killings and killings. Until June the 20" we were chased out from our ghetto, from Kollupzowa, to a larger ghetto, to and in te

Q: How was Rozia's family, all her uncles?

A: All her uncles were alive, she was staying with her uncles, all her uncles were alive and when we were all chased out to this larger, she went with her uncles and we were in this larger town from about June 20" "till July 7". July 7" they started Axias, means transportation from Rzeszow to Belzec, and with this first action, this was July the 7", my family was taken and naturally Rozia with her uncles were taken the same day to Belzec and she perished in Belzec.

I don't know exactly the date, but it could be a day or two or three days the most after July the 7", But was mostly the trip to Belzec from us, took about five hours, and sometimes they had to wait in line because there were so many trains waiting, so they should be next exterminated.

This was one of the first death camps that they didn't have gas chambers, they suffocated the people when they put them in hermetic closed chambers and they pumped in carbon monoxide.

Q: From trucks?

A: From trucks. Not so much in trucks as from Russian tanks. And then later when they choked to death which took quite a long time, it took about twenty to twenty-five minutes, they took them out. They didn't cremate the people in this time yet, because this was right in the beginning.

But they had very big ditches. Those ditches were made because this was near the German/Russian border, before 1941 when Germany attacked Russia so they had anti-tank ditches so they filled up those ditches with people and they covered them with sand. Then later they took kerosene and they burned them. So this is how she perished.

Q: Did you lose track of her once you left Rzeszow?

A: Well when they left the ghetto they were in Rzeszow for a few weeks, not a few weeks about two weeks, no I had contact with them same as with my family but when they took them to Belzec we didn't know, so we hired a friendly Pole and the friendly Pole we sent him on the same track that the trains went so it took him two weeks and he came back and through people he found out they were taken to a place called Belzec and supposedly they were killed in Belzec.

Q: She was taken there, you weren't taken there.

A: I wasn't taken because what happened is my family was taken there but when they were taken, so this man who was the head from the Gestapo in our town he organized a camp. If you read, everything is in the book. He organized a camp, a labor camp in Kollupzowa, and he brought back hundred young Jews and me he established in our house of prayers or synagogue. He established a camp. And the reason he brought us back is because he wanted to destroy the ghetto, because they didn't want to leave anything that was Jewish, so we lived in the synagogue and made the camp and every day went out and we destroyed house by house. And it's exactly the description how the destruction went on in the book. Because we had to go together to Belzec, but they took out hundred from our town and we went back and when we

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection saw we had nothing left. After a few months, and the end of November, we escaped into the woods and this is how I survived. Otherwise we would be taken to Belzec the same thing as all the people, because they accumulated in Rzeszow about hundred thousand Jews from all towns who surround Rzeszow. Because what they want to do is they want to have the Jews in one place where there is a railroad station. Now they told the Jews that they can take along with them anything they want. So this is what they wanted, the Jews should bring over everything and later when they took them away to Belzec all their stuff was left in the town in the ghetto and the Germans had it in one place.

Q: In Rzeszow?

A: In Rzeszow and they later took it to their warehouses and the things that they needed they took away and the rest they gave to Poles. The other thing I wanted to mention about Rozia, when we Saw it starting to be bad, this was before I went to the hospital. You see I had a younger sister, my younger sister, and she was very pretty, she was very intelligent. She spoke a few languages. She spoke English, she spoke German, she spoke Hebrew, Polish.

Q: Was this Rachel?

A: Rachel. And Rachel was only three years older than I was so we tried to arrange, Rachel should escape because there was a man, a Polish family who were thrown out from their houses, from their town in Pozna. Pozna was a town that it was next to the German Reich. This was from western border in Poland and they came to our town and they opened a little store in our town in the beginning of the war, and became very friendly. And they had a son a little older than I was, about five years older, and we became very friendly. So he begged my mother and Rachel, they would move away from our town to a different town and they would make believe that her son is a husband of Rachel, that Rachel is a daughter-in-law, in this way she would be able to survive with them. When they told us this, we thought it's a very good idea and then I came to Rozia and she looked Jewish whatsoever, she looked so typical Aryan. She had blue-greenish eyes and she had gold hair and she didn't look at all Jewish. So I told her, let's make arrangements because Rachel is going to run away with this family and you will go with them and we will make up somehow papers that you are a sister. We'll make false papers, it means that she's married to this Pole and you will go away with them. We talked and talked and she somehow was afraid. She said, I cannot take a chance. I am afraid. I do not have guts to do it.

She said, my sister Rachel could do it because you are so capable, she admired Rachel, and you can do it. So Rachel didn't want to go because she didn't want to leave the family. And Rozia was afraid, she was afraid. Maybe if she wouldn't be afraid maybe Rachel would somehow leave the family and go. Well, once we told them this, my sister Rachel had another chance to be saved. When the ghetto was established, they brought into our town Arbeits Amt. Arbeits Amt means a German labor office to register all the working people and the head of it was a German, and they needed somebody to be his secretary who spoke fluently German and could write German. My sister spoke beautiful German. So the Judenrat assigned my sister to be his secretary, and she worked with him. They became very friendly. He liked her very much. She was a very nice person, and when the Jews were chased out of our ghetto to Rzeszow, naturally this Arbeits Ant didn't exist any more. So in Rzeszow, in the ghetto, somehow on the street he met my sister, he was very happy, he said, you know what I am transferred from Rzeszow and I am now the head of the Arbeits Amt in Rzeszow and I need a secretary. Why don't you become again my secretary and I will give you a permit to stay here and you will not be taken away. So she said she would remain if he will give a pass to my other sisters and to my mother. My

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection father was already shot. He said well I can only save you not the other ones. So she didn't want. So sometimes the closeness of the family, the attachment to the family sometimes it was a curse for the Jews. Because a lot f Jews could be saved, they could save themselves to run away, or do something, but they wouldn't do it because they didn't want to leave their families, their fathers, their mothers, their sisters and brothers. So this time she didn't want to go away if he wouldn't give the permit to them to be left. So we're talking about, we went away a little from Rozia, but this is how she perished.

Q: How did you find out about Rozia's family in Russia?

A: Well when I went to Russia, when I escaped to Russia, I knew that they are there. So we went to Lemberg, Lvov. In Lemberg everybody from each town knew about somebody else who was there. So we got acquainted.

Q: And later, after the war?

A: After the war they were in Siberia and during the war before Germany attacked Russia they used to send cards to Rozia from Siberia. So we answered them a letters. Then after the liberation they were liberated, somehow they sent a card to Rozia to Kollupzowa and they wanted to find out what happened to them, if they are in this time in because they were released from the . And they wrote a letter, so I got the address. I wasn't in Kollupzowa, and somebody in Kollupzowa who received this card brought it to me. I was already in this time in the army in Rzeszow. So they brought me the card what they wrote to Rozia. So I had their address, so I wrote them the letter. And I remember the first letter. I told them that from the whole town only nine people survived and I told them who and I told them that Rozia didn't survive. And since then we were in contact with each other. When they came back from Russia, so they came to Poland, but in this time when they came to Poland, I was already out I escaped before. And we were in contact then the family went to Palestine, we were in contact.

The brother went to Santo Domingo, from Santo Domingo he came over here. In the beginning Ihad a business so somehow I managed to take him in the business and he lives here in Manhattan. He got married. My wife was the matchmaker when He got married because his wife was a Hebrew teacher together with my wife and when he came over he couldn't stay here.

If he wouldn't be married to an American citizen. And because she was a Hebrew teacher, they got married and this way he could stay. Now they have two daughters.

Q: The rest of Rozia's family went to Israel?

A: Went to Israel. The father went to Israel, he died there and the sister with her husband and her two children, so they are in Israel. They are in Tel Aviv. And this is how. It's the story.

Q: I'm thinking in terms of the ID cards. If you can remember something about Rozia, the story about her before the war, about "35 to "39.

A: Well, from deg35 to "39 the only story I can remember is that, because I was not in contact with her, because I couldn't speak to her, I was a Hassidic boy and we had nothing in common. I remember she had an uncle and the uncle used to go every Friday to the steam bath. He was an elderly man. This was the man who the German, he was always sitting, he could not go down for cold water in the steam bath, so I was near him and every time he needed a bucket with cold water, I used to bring it to him. Not so much that I liked him, but I figured this would bring me

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection closer to Rozia. Also he used to tell stories. He was a philosopher. So sometimes he caught me with my friends, he used to tell is stories about philosophy. Nobody wanted to listen. I always was standing there listening to him because again the same stories. But special about Rozia, yes, also this may be interesting. After when I came back and I was not anymore Hassidic and I started to see Rozia, we joined the Hanoar Hotzioni, this is a youth, Israeli Zionist organization.

And I was very happy that we joined, because she joined at this time together and then later my sister Rachel, was the head of this group in our town and then later when I wasn't anymore Hassidic, I took over and I became the head of this organization. And we got together and we sang songs, we started Hebrew and we went out on outings and then already this was one of my happiest days because in this group, Rozia also belonged to the same organization until the war broke out. So that's all that I can tell you about is the times that we belonged to the organization.

Q: How long did she belong to the youth movement?

A: To the youth movement she belonged from, I would say, about two years, a year and a half, two years. I would say deg38 and half "39. And then the war started. Then in 1939 I wanted to go to Palestine, but I couldn't so I made contact to go to Palestine illegal. You paid in 500 zlotys and they took you to Romania and from Romania, illegal on a ship to Palestine. So I remember with a friend of mine I paid in the 500 zlotys to go, he didn't have the money so I remember his mother sold two candlesticks and some pearls for him to have the money. We sent in the money and we waited any day to go. We got letters and then we didn't go because the war broke out.

And during all this time we made arrangements that if I would go to Palestine the first thing I would see to make arrangements for Rozia to come over.

Q: She wanted to go?

A: She wanted to go, yes. Well this was everything quietly. I didn't tell it to my family, she didn't tell it to her family. But between us we made plans to go and to settle in Palestine. Also, in the beginning of the war there was a German company had the ad in the paper that if somebody wants to go to America and if they have family, we can register and we would be able to go to America. And this was during the war. You had to send in so much money to be registered but you had to have blood relations. Yes, I had a brother, so I remember my sister Rachel, registered and I registered with Rozia and I registered that we were married, because we said in case this will come and it will be actual ready, so we would be married and we will go. So we sent in some money and later we didn't hear anything about it. So my sister, Rachel, had a Chusen (?), so he came to America a week before the war broke out and he came and she didn't come. She could come before but she waited for him. Listen, you only need half a page, but I don't know what you would pick out.

Q: I think that's fine and ["ll call you if I have questions.

A: All right, if you have it, or you can send me a copy.

Q: Sure.

A: You can send me a copy by normal mail. You can send it and I will correct it or something and then later I will correct it and I'll send it back.

Q: Now, I just want to ask one or two more things. Maybe you can describe to me where Rozia lived, maybe the house she lived in.

A: O.K. They lived, mostly Jews lived in the town. Mostly Jews lived around the market place and the market place all houses were Jewish. Only four houses in the market place, which was very big, were no Jewish and all the Jews had the businesses and the rest of the Jews were not rich, were very poor lived around the synagogue. They were small crooked houses, old houses falling down. Rozia lived I would say about half a mile or maybe a kilometer, no about a mile out of town on the road to go to Rzeszow. And they lived there and they had two houses. Three families had two houses. There was a brother and two sisters. Her parents. Her mother had a sister and a brother and they were all in the business. In the business before the war and they lived in those houses. They were nice houses. It's not comparison like we have in America because there was no running water and there was no indoor plumbing. But the houses were nice with beautiful gardens with flowers. Now one of the sisters of her mother, her name was Mrs. Smith, she was very particular in her garden. She always worked, with beautiful flowers and every time there was a concourse, it was how you say, to judge which flowers, a contest, her flowers were the nicest. She didn't have children so she had the flowers. So they lived there, like I said. The only thing they had more than we in the town, we didn't have electricity, they had electricity. The reason why is because they had electricity from the mills because they had there the generators, so they had electricity for themselves. So for us it was something important because when we come we saw electricity. They had very beautiful homes, very nicely furnished. But for our town it was nice. But it was lacking water and indoor plumbing.

Q: Was the mill fairly successful?

A: It was successful, but later it fell down because in the beginning of the "30s it was a fire, there was a big fire in the mill and they somehow could never recuperate, they could never build themselves up as it was before the fire. So it was not so big, it was a small flourmill and a small lumber mill, it was not big. It wasn't that they manufactured to send out for export like other mills, it was mostly for domestic use. Peasants needed to have flour brought over some grain but it was not successful after the fire, it was not successful. But it was a very prominent family.

They were a little more modern than the majority people in our town. The majority people were very orthodox and they were already a little more progressive, like you could see like Rozia's sister and brother already went to gymnasia, my sisters didn't go because my father would never allow us to go on a Saturday. Rozia didn't go anymore to the gymnasia but her brothers went. The reason Rozia didn't go to the gymnasia because this was after the fire and probably this was quite expensive because it was a private gymnasia, private high school, and probably it was too expensive for them to send Rozia to the gymnasia. So instead of the gymnasia, so after she finished the she went to a seamstress to learn how to sew.

Q: The seamstress worked in town or next door to her?

A: Well, not far from them. There was a seamstress, she was special, a very elegant seamstress.

She was from Kollupzowa originally and later she moved to Vienna and she had a workshop in Vienna.. Later she came back when Hitler started to, when Hitler came to power in Germany because her husband was Jewish. His name was Rosner. So her husband was Jewish and she wasn't. But anyway because when they started with all the laws in Germany and Vienna, so she figured she didn't want to wait so she came back home. The woman by whom she worked. So

see I know all those stories, I don't know what else I can tell you.

Q: I think that's good.. So they were sewing like dresses?

A: Well, mostly they were sewing to order. If somebody wanted to have elegant nice dress, but they didn't sew dresses to sell or something, this was only to people from the town would come.

Not the average person because average person went to somebody who was cheaper, but somebody who wanted to have a very elegant dress, a very elegant suit, women, so they came to her. Because her being already having already a workshop in Vienna, she was a little more sophisticated. And then Rozia after the war and before the war she was very capable. She did all her dresses herself. She was very good at it and then later when her sister left for Russia, so she left all her clothing with her because they wouldn't take away, so later she fixed them over to fit for Rozia. And then later when she needed to eat, so she started to sell little by little what her sister left in the house.

Q: So in the ghetto she had things from her family to sell?

A: She had things from her family to sell, yes. But she was by herself, so she ate with her uncle.

With her uncle who didn't have no children and how they lived, they lived together. I know I used to travel a lot and I used to go out in the ghetto, I took off always my armband, because I didn't look Jewish. So I used to go out and I used to bring in a lot of food to the ghetto. So every time they needed something, so I brought it for them. This is how we went along. If the Germans wouldn't have a total destruction, a lot of people could survive. You see Rozia had the big chance because she looked so much gentile and she spoke so good Polish. Because her language actually was Polish. They didn't speak home Yiddish like the majority. The majority Jews did. Like for instance, in my home we spoke Yiddish, but nevertheless my sister spoke Polish. I spoke a good Polish because we spoke Polish in the business, in the store with the non-Polish population and my father was practically the only Jew with the long grey beard who spoke beautiful Polish. But the majority people in our town didn't speak good Polish. But Rozia's family spoke only Polish.

Q: Did Rozia speak Yiddish?

A: Very bad. She spoke always, I remember, when she came to us and sometimes she spoke to my father, so my father laughed and she always, well you speak Yiddish like a shiksa. She spoke very bad. She spoke German. Everybody by us in our section spoke German because our section was Galicia and this belonged to Austria until the end of the First World War. So everybody spoke Polish, I mean German. But Yiddish, she didn't speak. She understood, but..

Q: So when you two spoke it was in Polish?

A: It was in Polish, yes. And I remember even when she came to our house so my sisters, my mother spoke to her in Polish. And late when she came to our house when we were in the ghetto and there were certain times that I brought over things that you couldn't get in the ghetto, salami, a piece of cheese. All I remember my brother in America sent through turkey, a package with chocolate, with salami with other goodies that you couldn't get in the ghetto, and I would divide it for all the children. When she made little pieces, she always included Rozia. She said it was for her, she got also a part. I remember it was Rozia's birthday and I wanted to give her a present and I there was nothing to sell in the time of the war and my sister had a beautiful

manicure set and she got it from her first boyfriend. It was with initials R.S. so she gave it to me I should give it to Rozia. My sister was Rachel Saleschutz and Rozia was Rozia Shiskin, and she said give it to Rozia. Then later she said to me, well maybe I shouldn't give it to you because this gift didn't work out good for her, but nevertheless she gave it to me and I gave it to Rozia. You see, we were very close and I was the youngest in the family and if I wanted something it was all right with the family. See her family was different from my family. My family was more Hassidic, ultra, ultra orthodox and their family was modern. So this was a little bad, but later it didn't make no difference. It so happens that her brother, now in America, he's very religious. He goes every day to shul. I don't go. I go once a year. You know, it changed those things. You don't always have the same thing.

Q: Well, that's it.