Document

ISRAEL GRUZIN June 30, 1994

Q: Can you tell us your name and where and when you were born?

A: I would be delighted. My name is Israel Gruzin. I born in Lithuania, in Slobodka, they say in a place I born in 1928, December the 28th but now I am putting myself on May the 4th, and I am going to tell you the story.

Q: You're going to tell us the story later?

A: Right.

Q: Tell us a little bit about your life in Slobodka and about your family and your brothers and sisters, if you have any?

A: I had a brother, of course. I was born in Lithuania, in Slobodka, in Vilijampole. We had a normal life. My father was not a millionaire but he made a nice living. He was doing some business with Russians and things like this, and it was binders from boot sales and selling this from the houtgarba(ph) to make leather out of it. | was going to school. I was going, of course, to Cheder, a Hebrew school and my brother the same thing. And we was going on a normal life. Of course, we had the little- the Lithuanians was not always with Jews. There was stories all over the place, but we had a normal life and living like normal people, and then, of course, in 1940 came the Russians because the war started already with the Germans. It was not a war yet, but when the Germans came to Poland -- but the Russians came to Lithuania and then the Russians occupied Lithuania close to a year, and then the war started in 1940.

Q: Tell me what changed when the Russians came.

A: It was a little different because you will -- I was going to a, to Hebrew school and then all of a sudden I was going to a Jewish school. They are cutting down on the religious part.

They were trying to make all the children like sort like patriotic and, of course, when you're young you think is the future. But my father was always against the regime because of Communism. In fact, he got arrested one time. One time he got a chicken he was carrying this to the street and he was stopped. What do you have a chicken for? And he was afraid to tell everything to go to officially. They arrested him and after a couple hours, but they let them out. They didn't want to get the men for the chicken. You can imagine my father didn't care much for the Communists. But I was not myself. I liked the movie and things like that. But it was really normal. It was a little different with the new regime, but I was too young to see the difference.

Q: Let me ask you to go back before the Russians came. You said there was a lot of

Antisemitism?

A: There was because I can experience to start with, because I remember my father bought a bicycle for my brother. I was the younger and he was a year older. We were riding one time and I was saying, let me ride, let me ride, and all of sudden there was a few boys, not Jewish, and one of them got a stick and put it right in the springs and he broke the bicycle, and like young boys, of course, we chasing them. You broke the bicycle. How come you broke the bicycle? And where I was living in -- we got a little farther out -- was a church and we chased them to the church and, of course, course the police came out and let the two buys in and he put the foot in this door and he told us, go away you Zyds. I told them and this time, of course, I spoke. I forgot --Lithuanian, I was going born there-- them I told him he broke the bicycle and he kept saying, go away. Of course, I couldn't fight him. It was experience. We came back home and my father took this bicycle to the man that fixed the bicycle and fixed it. But you had a feeling like you were always not so welcome, like because I'm Jewish.

Q: Did you have Lithuanian friends?

A: Like I said, I was neighbors with a few of them, but in general I was in the Cheder. But in the area I was living there was Jewish people. But we had a few people from the

a restaurant there. His son was a little friendly with us, and we were playing as children, but didn't have too many Lithuanian friends.

Q: Did you hear about the Germans and the Nazis while the Russians were there?

A: Oh, of course, in 1933 when the Russians came into Poland. Of course, my father was a middle-aged man and he talked about it with my mother, and he showed the papers a little bit, in the Jewish papers and the Lithuanian papers what was going on in Poland, the liquidations and the killing over there. And it was we started. A lot of Jewish run away from Poland and come to Lithuania. In fact, when the army, the Polish army, fight the Germans they came to Lithuanian because some of them didn't want to stay with the Germans. But most of them was happy to have the Germans in Poland.

Q: You were very young. Did you hear your parents talking about it and did you read the newspapers?

A: Yes. I couldn't understand a little bit and there was politic involved, and I could hear it and feel it, and when I see in the, whatever, I saw in the paper I realized this that we are not welcome. Something is going to come back and my father kept saying what was the next step. He didn't realize that the Germans were going to attack the Russians this time, but when the war started and they start feeling that the Germans are coming. But my father reading the papers and knowing what is going on. It's time to leave everything and run because what is going on in Poland is maybe going to be the same thing here in Lithuania. And we had a horse and wagon, and I have a lot of stories to tell. We had a

small little horse and we are using it to take the coals from -- it was a little like a pony. It was like a dog. You talk to him like a dog and this horse was doing things that were believable. And my father had two horses but my father took the smaller horse and the wagon and take the few things we can take with us, and we made the journey to run away from the Lithuania. And the Germans were always bombing the airport, and a lot of Jews start running to get away from the army.

Q: And this is in 1941?

A: This is in 1941. And only the same time these bombs was falling and, of course, the Lithuanians were so happy to see the Germans coming, they're sabotaging the Russian Army tanks, putting on fire and burning 6 the tire and shooting on them. And all of sudden their own rifles and putting on the Lithuania uniform and really taking advantage of the situation and start right away with the Jews, of course, but we didn't have enough -- it was too fast. We left. They day they started throwing the bombs, my father took the horse and wagon and we was going to get out of there. And we are running the streets with the Russian Army and we were going to Latvia. A lot of people in this area. You can go to Latvia and then to Minsk, and then from Minsk to White Russia, but we didn't make the journey so far. We just took that horse and wagon. We have involved with the Russian Army and then, of course, the Germans were bombing the streets and we were going through the hole. I say the Holocaust, dead people right away from the first time, and my mother, in fact, was shot, slit. The bomb cut in her leg we were running in this way. We were going in the same direction as the Russian army. There was always fires and dead people on the streets and a lot of them couldn't make it. You know, the soldiers and a lot of people riding the horses didn't make it. We kept on going and then, of course, we came to the border of Latvia. We came in at Minsk. There was a lot of Latvian people there, but we hear right away from the Gentile people that something going on, terrible things going on against the Jews, even in Minsk. But we were lucky and we were still going in the car with the Russians, the army. But the army was really practically 99 percent in a chaos, didn't know what they are doing. One was running right and one was running left, and then I remember one thing, that we were running, going with the wagon and two Jewish guys came over and said you have to give us a ride. My father said, Look, I got a little tiny horse. We have four people. We won't make it. They took out a revolver and they point it at my father. They said, look, you are going to sit down and we are going with you. Also because we can't walk. They might look a little Communist inclined, I don't know. Maybe they are soldiers, and then we are running like this. Not running, driving and driving and driving and then, all of a sudden we had an attack with machine guns and I felt -- I was in the wagon with my mother and my brother and my father was driving the horse and the two men, and then all of a sudden we hear a something. We hear a scream and one of them says, Oy, Oy. We look and then he laying, fall back and a bullet went right in the man part, in this -- right in his, in the part, the men part, and it went in this -- excuse the expression -- right in where it aches for the men. He could feel the bullet. He could touch it. The other man said, don't do nothing. Drive faster the horse. Drive the horse, and then we were already in Latvia, and then we

stopped and they are still with us two days, and then this man stopped some other people and, of course, speak fluent Russian and they made us stop for a day, like a half a day and they said we should go closer to the water. And they took him out of the wagon and they said to us, they thanked us for the ride and giving them the ride and we left them right by the water. And I said, how can you leave them by the water? And he said, I made arrangements to the other side because the other side of the river, the Russian Army was a little bit more organized. It could start to fight back. It made like a zone to fight back, and we left them there. My father didn't want to leave the man. After all, he didn't know him and now the man is wounded, and they kept on saying -- I was a boy and I could see that it was his part and there was a bullet, and the other man was going to take it out and my father said, don't do it. You'll kill him. And anyway we left him by the edge of the water and we started going farther. We are already -- my father and my brother and my mother alone, and my father kept the tallis, you know, the tallis what you 9 wear, and he keep it on the wagon with him, and this he took with him. We are going there and then nobody to talk, but luckily my father was fluent in Latvian, is different, similar but different. My mother didn't speak Latvia, and I, of course, didn't and my brother didn't.

Then he hear some from -- somebody told us that we are Jewish. You are one of them. The Germans were not even there yet. We didn't know what was going on. And go there, make a left and a right there. And there was a farm and there was a Jew. Maybe he can give you directions. Anyway, we came over there. He had a farm and two sons and all kinds of animals there, chickens and cows and pigs, and all this. And there was a little town and the whole people looked like they like them over there because he was a very nice man. And my father said to him, what should we do? And he said, I am in the same boat like you are. The war was going on. We didn't know how long it was going to go. So stay with us for a while. And we stay for two or three days, and then on the other side of the farm was close to the water, maybe a quarter of a mile. And my father said to him, maybe we could go over to the other side. But we couldn't. He wanted to go over. The reason -- I skipped a little bit. The reason we came to this 10 place, he wanted to go to Latvia. The Russian go over to Latvia. There was bridge and the Russian Army exploded the bridge because -- then the tanks and the army. Their own people. There was a lot of Jewish, and on the bridge, we were lucky not to make the time on the bridge. If we were on the bridge we would be exploded too. Right before our eyes we saw the bridge collapsing and there was a lot of Russian people running around in their underpants, really. With their rifles and they couldn't even walk. They got on the other side. We remained on our side and the people on the other side, there was still the army holding the gun. But a couple days on the farm with this man I said to my father, let me see what was going on. And we took the little boat. We really wanted to go over. He said, I can't take anyone right now. I was going in the nighttime. I was not there and my father, said oh, my God, what is going on there? They are fighting with the Germans and and the Jewish and he found out. And they couldn't make it back on the other side, but he came back with this man from the farm. And he came back and said, look, he said, it is bad. I am taking my horse and wagon and I am going. He had some people that came to him and said, ride it out from the 11 people. And we are left completely alone, and this was like in evening and I said to my father -- and my father's name was Heim(ph) -- and

he shake hands with him. I got my family and you have yours. I have to go my way. I can't take you where I'm going. We go where we can and then, of course, we made the journey to go back because we couldn't go to the other side. We were trying to go back from where we came. That's why I said the little horse was like a dog. We didn't know where to go and my father said to him, go horse. He didn't know where to go and he was afraid to ask for directions, things like this. And luckily like I said in the beginning, my father speaks Latvia, and we starting to move back in one little town and , the small towns. And all of a sudden we hear from the people, the Gentile people, the Germans are moving slowly. And then all of a sudden we see a German truck with soldiers and oh, my father said, we are already under the Germans. We caught from the Germans. We are going. My father was smart and took that horse and took some mud and smeared up the horse and made the wagon look like farmers and look not like Jewish people, because he hide the tallis that he had. We are going there and people are greeting us. People thought we are going from one , from one little 12 town to another little town. We are going back to where we go back to from there we went to . We saw where we came to before we go with the Russians and we saw the bombs. We didn't see the city. It was really wiped out. It was bombed. We didn't want to go but still some buildings were still remaining there, and then all of a sudden we come in on the highways where the German Army with this music with this big truck of ____ and tanks. And we are five going farther than them. We are going farther and they are going backwards. And they kept on saying in German , things like this. We knew how to speak German too and, of course, my father knew we are all right. But of course, my father knew more, but the Jewish and German is very similar. But in this experience we are going down to a house, a bag to grab it and saw it on the ground and it exploded. It was like a bomb. They didn't know if we are Jewish or not, but they didn't care. They were soldiers but when we came in to this town -- and we are still in and someone from the windows up from the top, what are you doing? Someone will recognize us. We are not Latvia. There was a Russian man that said to my father, this Russian. It is now six o'clock. Nobody is allowed to be on the street. Move off to 13 the side because they are going to destroy you. My father understand stood Russian too and we moved over, right where we could in the comer, and the night came and wagons and the machine guns and the airplanes and the bomb. And German Army is so powerful, and this was in the morning. We saw people start moving. We saw civilian people also. Then we start going again with our horse. The journey to go back to Lithuania. And my father stopped and asked an old lady. Why didn't you have the directions? Are you not from here? And he said, no, to her. No, we're not from here, and she said oh, my God. Don't tell them that you are Jewish they. Are killing all the Jews and killing all the Jews. It's in this little town and this little town. And my father, of course, explained to us, he said to us, go and don't ask nobody. If you are going to ask a question, where you are going, you will not be. Keep on going. I can give you good directions and you go over the highways.

And we have to go where the army was. Don't ask for directions. My father didn't want to ask for corrections, and he put in the tallis for good luck and they were driving by us. He put in the tallis, you know, for good luck and driving by ourself. And all of sudden we see soldier and already the Partisans 14 and the Latvia people, they put in their uniform

and they're running and the flowers they got for the Germans, and the womens get all kind of and they -- and then Partisans with rifles and knives came over to us, first with bicycle and come off the street because my father was making sort of like, sort of like . You should be too much with the hiding because the army is going there.

They stopped us and they said to him, where are you going? to my father, and my father said to him, oh, I know you. Because he spoke the language and they were drunk, really drunk and bloody, full blood like , you know. My father said to him, I know your father. Do you know? he said. He said, I have a little farm -- they were so drunk they didn't know what was going on. And they asked my father, did you see any Jews?

Jews? I saw so many Jews not too far, half a kilometer. Full of Jews. People with a lot of fences, sitting and telling a story. Oh, for this one, let's drink. In Lithuania, oh, this one let's, drink and, you know, opened up a bottle of some vodka. And my father was drinking and said to my brother and myself and to my mother, keep on moving, move, move, and he said keep on moving, to my brother, who was a little older. And my brother took the horse and started moving, and made 15 him to drink. And he drink a little bit. He had to take a sip and he said to them, take them . Keep on moving. Move away from the wagon we were maybe -- keep it moving so my brother was a little older and he took the horse and he keeps moving. They made him to drink a little bit, a sip, what it took, and he said to them, take them. My father says, keep moving with the wagon. We were maybe two or three foot away from him and then my father start running to him and he said oh, thank God. I get rid of them. Then we keep on going farther and we came into a little town. It was called -- this was already before we came, we passed the border because there were no border because the Germans already took over everything. They opened up all the borders. It was not Latvia. No one was guiding there. We came into the border there. Of course, we saw what was going on. We was scared. We saw dead people right and left, right and left. Jewish people and the Russian people were laying, slaughtered like so many pigs. First time I saw dead people and was the first time for me and of course, you see dead people more and more and more. We came to a little town called Milkinmeer(ph). It was not bombed. It was a nice little town. In fact, my uncle came from there. 16 There was . There was a house full. We went riding for -- like I say, the horse was and my father didn't want to ask for directions, and we came over there. We looked like farmers. He made it so we didn't, monotonous and tired and things like this. We came into this little town and we came to a big house that was maybe four are or five stories, and the Partisans were standing with rifles, and there were only Jews. They put them all in this house and screams and one of them from the window recognized when we went by, and someone screamed in, you are Jewish move away, move away, and we looked up and , but luckily they didn't stop us.

We going farther. It took us another day and a half and two days before we came to the Slobodka. Someone was arriving there. This was after the bombs because we came a little later. It was raining in the streets and it was mostly red, like they killed animals. It was from people. We didn't see too many because they pulled me away. And whatever. It was really -- you could see blood in the streets instead of water. When we came we came to our street. We were leaving. The horse was like a dog. This horse brought us by the door. When we leaving there was a house. There was a house, four-story house

and there 17 was a gate like a door. You opened up and our house was in the back. The back was nice. There was a garden. My father was renting. This man was a he had a drug store. He built his house. It was a modern house and we lived in the back of the house, and before he was living on the property, not ours but there was a garden and took kind of some land and build a big house in front of this, in front the street, and we came to this to go into the gates. It was locked up. We couldn't go in. My father tried to open it up. It was locked. The people came to the window and we recognized they were neighbors. Why did you come here? You know. My father said I just came from traveling back from Latvia. How can you do this? Nobody's on the street. It's empty. Everybody is dead. Somebody came down and let us in the gate they close it right up and started telling us these stories. And all the neighbors, this street and this street. You could see to the window our street. This particular area they didn't make it here, they don't come here. They are still afraid they are going to come here. The house was empty. The house was still there. Nobody touched the house and of course, we run back to the house and the next we stayed overnight in our house. And all of sudden we hear 18 loudspeakers in this area and the streets were running full with Germans, you know, because when we came in it was so quiet. And there was loudspeakers and this where they are making the __ but my father was, of course, a little see what was going on. See if my mother's brother was there. He run away and escaped. They went to Russia. My father was going. I had my grandfather there and he was going to see his mother and father but he was still there, safe in the . It was next day they killed all the people in Latvia. You were safe from the it was next door they killed all the people. My grandmother, they hide her under the bed and they didn't find her. It was a little house, you know, they look and nobody was there. They didn't kill them this time but they get them anyway. They had loudspeakers in the area. We could hear it. It was in the area of the ghetto, but they took from all the Jews, and people start coming in the next day. My father go downtown to find out and I go with him. And the horses was so tired and couldn't go. We tried to give it a little bit water and it was walking. Was hard. Maybe going to take the horse and go we drive about ten blocks still Slobodka. We saw the -- we saw the little spitting on the Jew and doing -- all 19 the Germans, already the soldiers. It was not organized yet . All of a sudden we saw this, these uniforms.

They are talking, the Gestapo and the Nazi, and so the people start coming from downtown. In our area there was no gates or wire or nothing and my father was driving and he wanted to see my grandfather. The problem we wanted to see if the uncle was down in the city we. Drive for several blocks. We look where the used to be. I had no window. They cut off the head from the robber and put it right in the window, and my father see, and myself too and my brother was going with me too because my mother was in the house and my father said, I'm not going. Father can see what was going on and we went back to our home. It was not taking too long. It was about three, four days. All of a sudden the Germans were the army against the Jews. They pull everybody from all the towns and all over and and they come in with trucks and big machines. And they bringing the wires and, you know, they came up with loudspeakers, everything, everybody has to go out and help building the gates and the wiring. And they went out and told them where to go. They got my brother and my father

but not me. Our house was about 500 foot away from the next street it was . 20 There was the fire. Already it was a street, a main highway. It was like a connection they made. This was a big they made from the other side there was Jews too. They made wires between two streets and they made the bricks over to go where we shouldn't be. We have to build the ghetto ourself and then, of course, they get so organized. They came in with, like I say, the Germans. The Germans alone didn't have a part in the brutality because the and the Poles and the Latvia and have -- everybody was helping the Germans to kill the Jews. Like I saying, they were killing already but somehow we made it through the things. And of course, they putting everybody on the wires in this area and then they say five kilometers or ten kilometers and couldn't see on the map. I couldn't decipher it. Then they put in all the people from the sides and put the gates, they told us it was going to be a couple weeks before the ghetto was created. But I already had experience in Poland. Look like it. They, right away, they took the young people for work and my uncle, rest in peace, he was one, the first one. And he was taken right away from the ghetto, and the second they came in with trucks and wagons and made a liquidation. Young children and old people. They have a special area where they are 21 going to leave and, of course, they came in to my grandfather and grandmother and they put them right away on the truck, and some other people. And in fact, I was running to see my grandfather and when I get there, the Germans coming in and open up the wires in this area. They didn't go around. They came in and closed up again. When I see this area closing up with the rifle and the soldiers and the knives, then I turn back. I was afraid because I knew not to go there because I was born there. There was a Slobodka the Jewish people they were going to be . This was still in the ghetto this time but I knew not to go away, to go through there. It was like a little corridor between the two buildings. But when I say they closing the up the area with my grandmother and grandfather, I didn't go back there luckily. If not, I would be catched by them and not even here. Then they started taking out people. We didn't know where and then, of course, they took them right away to Nitenfort(ph) and they killed them. I'm talking this was tons of people. I couldn't give a number, and this was going on for a little while. And right away the Germans came in with and the Jewish people to make you going to there and you going to this, and they are started getting organized. I 22 would say three or four weeks this got already a , you know, Jews come and they got people. They are putting the star of and they making people in charge. You do this and you do this. And people from the other parts, Latvia and never had enough food -- got involved in this, start taking out people already from the ghetto right away from work. The people going to work on the airport or the they call this. It was before the Russian, but the Germans took it over and they took people for labor. And I myself was supposed to go too, but somehow I had a chance to stay back.

More and more we get tougher and tougher. Every day was they put the people in our house and what we have? Kitchen and dining room and living room, a bedroom, everything was in a long straight. If you go to the kitchen, you go to the dining room -- it was a long house. I couldn't compare the house like they have here. It was a nice but in this house we are living four people, but they put in 15 people. They put in people if my whatever we had. This was already in the ghetto. Then they started taking out. By

this time the make the Auschwitz. They start taking out people they had more room to release the prisoners. They came in and said there were too many people in your 23 house. It was going on like this for a little, a house we have plenty of room for them. It was going for a little while like this and then we are going to work. And I point out this thing that happened to me in the ghetto. In the beginning we had a cow and horse and when the ghetto start, there was a sign right away. Everything you possess you have to give it away. Of course, we had a horse andI had __ I have the . left them.

When I went when I left, when we were running away. The were still there and I thought maybe ten or fifteen . There came a family from the ghetto.

They run away from friends. They used to get it was not kosher, whatever. It was the -- they took the took the Germans you going to cook them and eat them. I said I didn't know what to do with the __. They took the horse. We had to give the horse.

My father hide it in the place where the horse was staying, and a couple weeks these loudspeakers come and everything you possess and everything you have from the living thing, even a chicken, even a fork, everything that alive you were not allowed to have.

My father had to give the horse to the Germans. We get shot if they catch us with it. One night I go with my father and there was a lot of places where 24 they had, farmer people used to come rest, and then there was a few places like this. There was a police there, I remember, when we had to take the police over there and there was German, the ghetto and everybody had cows and animal and things. I will tell you about a cow. They left a few cows in the ghetto for the milking. My father had to give up the horse. It was such a kind horse. He used to eat from the your hand. He was like a dog really, not a horse. The horse was so frightened that he start kick and had kicked up the German he almost kill him. He almost knocked down the German. He grabbed the gun against the horse, you know, and he grabbed the gun against my father and, did you tell him to do this? And my father said, I can talk to the horse. He touched the horse and looked him in the mouth and he said, this is a good horse. We ask to use it. Of course, they took it away and kick my father as a thank you and kick him away because my father was going to . It was on our street. This was the horse and when the ghetto start, they leave a few cows in the ghetto for the . This was supposed to be. They were nice in the beginning. Then one of the Jews -- the police came to our house and said you are going to feed the cow.

We take the cow from the house, from this house, 25 whatever -- was in the cows was standing, pull the cows out, not to far to the : I went to the cow and he run away and I was so hurt. I felt the cow was -- I was laying down underneath the cow when a Partisan who looked at the cow and saw the milk is getting bigger, and he looked underneath the cow and maybe thought I was going to drink or something, and it was a little angry, the Partisan. The was not too far away and he shoot at me. The cow got scared and the cow jumped away, kicked me. | started running into the ghetto and I was chasing the cow, and the cow run until I grabbed the cow and pulled her and back put it back where the cow belonged. It was the the first few days. It was then, when the ghetto was going. On I went a few times to work. You also go to work and then they block the ghetto altogether, and they -- and they made a big action. And this is the thing, that thing make this was a small ghetto from a big ghetto, and they -- I think they, before they got liquidated we had experience with what they are doing. I will

tell you about this too, then I will tell you about the action. When they liquidated they took most of the people from the small ghetto and taking them to the Nitenfort(ph) taking them to the Nitenfort(ph), but before they did it 26 there was a hospital in this small ghetto. It was run by Jewish doctor and all kind of people that were capable to run a hospital. It was a regular hospital before. When our house was not too far away from the gates where they make, and then across the street there was a another ghetto and you can see in the back of our house a few blocks away, not in blocks. There was a then.

Over there was you can see they built a study for Jewish learning and farther away from the hospital I -- like I say, our house was not so tall but the house in front was four or five stories. They closed up the small ghetto altogether. The military and the soldiers and the Germans and the Partisans were there. When I went up in the roof -- I was young when we were living -- there was a little window to look out. I saw what was going on. They were kicking people and punching them around and putting them in the sections. And when I say from far away, I saw them coming around the fire, and two or five wagons around the building, and then the Germans. And they put a store on the building. They take the kerosene and gasoline and they put this building on fire, and they are jumping, live people. I'm sure four, five hundred people in the building, maybe more. When they bring down the hospital, they were laughing. 27 I could see. I was not far away. When people try to run to the window, they were shooting them. They were falling like a bag, like nothing. We saw this was going on and this was the small hospital. That's the way they liquidated the hospital. Then the big action came from the big ghetto and then, of course, they run around with the loudspeakers. And this time was already the ghetto organized. It was the Jew Police. In fact, my uncle -- he was not a plain person but he looked like a bit, looked German. Here a room for you, going to watch this street. You can watch the street. It should be quiet. People shouldn't stay in groups and talk. He was a quiet man, but thanks to him this life too, in concentration camp. But the way it looked like because of him we went on the good side and my aunt went to the other side.

And when they make the big action, they came out with loudspeakers and start saying everybody have to meet in this certain place. It was an empty place in the ghetto. They stage things like this. It was empty, where people used to play football. This was thought nothing but there was no . There was woods and cemetery not too far away, and they put all the people, everybody young and old and not sick, everybody have to be there. And they took out from 28 their houses, carry them out from the beds and, of course, they came back to the houses looked like the people were. There was thousand and thousand of people and they make a selection and they make people -- panicking people. Can't take nothing with you. When people get lost from each other, you can hear them saying mama, papa , you know, the Jewish name. There was a panic and this was early in the morning. It was maybe five o'clock in the morning the day before. It was not light outside. You have to go to this truck. We came to this place where it was standing, couple trucks for the Germans and the Partisans, and there was the Germans standing with the little stick. And everybody have to got to face him, and you right, left, right, left, and the Jewish Police have to take the group, 30 or 40 people, up to this man.

There was a few of them and it looked like my uncle, and he run over to us, because he was this time a little room for us and he said follow me, beginning with me, and

somehow he thought maybe he could make a move or something. The Germans said we should go to the right side or the left side, I don't know, but we followed my uncle and we went to the right side. We saw the people go to the left. They are treating them more awful then they are 29 treating us. On the right side we saw -- it was looser, the ghetto, more and the left was closer the other side. And he separate into thousand and thousand of people, and they open up the gates and put the people back in the clean ghetto, back where they burned the hospital. It was still there and they moved them in there. And it was deep in the night and everything starts falling to quiet, and they came to the right side and they said you can go if you have the houses where you live. Go back to your homes and we are still in the ghetto and they was pulling on the people in the left side, and stopping the soldiers, the Partisans. And like I say, the Lithuanians were maybe with the Germans and they put them in the other side, and we went back. Of course, in the panic and we missing -- my father is not here with my mother, and my father and my brother were lucky this time and we were pulled back to our home.

And like I say, we are not too far away from the smaller ghetto and other people going to houses here. The whole night screaming and panicking and so like in the morning, they opened up in the morning and they put them all in the line and put them in the Nitenfort.

There was house, I don't know the number, but it was, you couldn't see from one end to the 30 other, there was so many people. This was small babies and they did everything. This was a big action, they call it. It was big the action.

Q: Did you know where they were going?

A: We knew because, because we knew earlier because they killed our grandfather the Nitenfort and you were going out to work and this faction -- so telling us what happened to us. I didn't see good people. There was maybe a few. I didn't see a good German where I was, but I won't go into it, and they took these people and start them marching them to the Nitenfort, and we were still remaining in the ghetto. This was our luck, and in the morning the ghetto was completely empty, the small ghetto, and we could hear in the night the machine guns and the shooting, because the Nitenfort was not really far away from the ghetto. It was just really a couple kilometer up the hill. And sometimes playing, sometimes there I didn't know what was going to happen there, and you could see from the Nitenfort and see Slobodka. It was not so far away. And we could hear the shooting going on and the killing and, of course, nobody came back from there. And sometime we knew what was going on even before they are taking people in the Germany and the Austria and marching them between the two lines, two ghettos. 31 They were killing them over there too, and where were we going. We knew already. This night you don't tell people that they are going be killed. You couldn't make any move. If anybody move, your would lose you're life. And now I was walking down, and I liked to carve. Now, I was walking down, but I always like too carve and make airplanes and things like this.

One day in the ghetto time, I was already working on the airport and we were digging ditches and doing some other thing. They had a lot of prisoners. The Russians treat them terrible. Germans, they so do the prisoners was to us was you were Jews. It was coming to us. That was the way they thought. But even to the Russian

military they lost a little bit of faith, are we going to be alive. It was going on and when ditches -- going back to the ghetto -- I was not going to work. I was sitting outside and I was carving a little airplane and all of a sudden the Germans came in. They were free to go in their Jeeps and the Germans stopped. Four Germans walked to me and said to me

what are you doing there? I am playing. I am making myself a toy. How do you

know to make an airplane? You know, to me and I spoke, I think little and I spoke German in a way too because it was similar, so I told him I always 32 like to play. Do you have more knives? And I said, no, I have this one. No, I have this knife. And he said, you go to the Jeep, and I said, I want to tell my mother. And he kicked me and put me in the Jeep and I thought they were going to kill me, kill me. Downtown in the there isa school. People used to learn there. This was the headquarters for the Germans they put me in a basement and said to me, we aren't going to do nothing to you.

We want you to make airplanes for us. I didn't know what they wanted from me. I said, can you tell my parents? One of them okay, I'll tell them. My mother and father thought I was dead. Because my mother and father thought I was dead. They took me out and -- this was going on all the time. I was there maybe a couple of days. I don't know whether it was night or day because it was dark there, but it was light inside. And they bring me all kinds of tools and I made toys. I made a butterfly and an airplane and they keep on saying, keep on doing, keep on doing. I was a couple days and they took from everybody. I had a imagination and I always like to look at the airplanes, and when I was younger I dreamed of becoming pilot. Can you imagine me a pilot? But I had a dream.

Who knows, if the war wouldn't be there 33 or something. And I was doing these airplanes for them and I took maybe four or five models. They gave me soft wood.

I never worked with this. I tried to get out here and I even so I was doing. A few days went by and they came and said, oh, come on, you know, in German. I think they going to shoot me or something. They take me back to the same German that picked me up and, you know, drop me off at the gate and said go, go. They opened up the gate and it was also the Jewish Police guard, and what happened to you? They took me there and I was making the airplanes. I went in by foot not too far away from the grates where you go in into main gates to go in when you get out from the ghetto. Of course, my mother and my father was working there and they thought I was dead. And then life still was going the same system like it was and the next day I had to go to work.

When there in the ghetto a certain time, not all the time in the ghetto, and then all of sudden somebody came to the building. Back of the building had to be open. Didn't have to be closed anymore. Now, the place where we were living, the house was a lot of sacks.

My father had the horses there. It was a big area and we wait for the ghetto, to wait for the ghetto. To come there was a beautiful wood and the 34 trees and this area, it was like a place that you can unload some wood and coals there was not room. We did this for a little while. There was a garden. We cleaned up the garden made enough place to put in the roots, and they brought the horses, and they came from the street and they was killing them in the sacks. This was the meat for us to eat in the ghetto.

Q: They were killing horses to give to people to eat the food?

A: The horses were wounded from the war, but also not enough. They used to bring them there, not far away from our horses.

Q: You used to stay in this sack?

A: Call it a sack.

Q: A sack?

A: A place where you have like a garage. It was not a garage. There was four of them like this and they used to bring the horses there, and they would bring the people from the ghetto and kill the horses and slaughter them and put them in the other place and cut it apart and give it to the -- there was meat and some of the horses I'm sure were sick. Some of those horses couldn't even make it. They brought them in the ghetto and give it to the Jewish people, and here's. Do what you want with it. But one day we 35 hear a knock on the door. It was early in the morning they came in with the Jewish Police and a German.

You're family is chosen to be, to go to work. You are going to be in the ghetto and we are going to send you to the . They call it in a place where the castle is, and we thought they were going -- can take nothing with us. Whatever we had possessions. Of course, we had some stuff in there, in the ghetto that was going on. We had a farming coat and we used to go by the wire and they would come back on business, and I didn't want to keep it. Before I left the ghetto -- it was before the action -- and I remember my father got a coat for my mother. It was a beautiful coat like a mink coat, and they walked over to the gates and there were the dying people and she said, what can I get for it? I have a kilo of butter and things like this, and over the gate and the Partisans were guarding us. They looked away and they were making stuff like business, and take everything away that they could. And I remember my father was quarter pound of butter or meat for the coat. And other people sold beautiful things. A dead cat, you know. You know, what was in the bag. A lot of people making dogs, or something

one put in a poison. The things that were coming over, you don't know what 36 you got in this. My father was lucky. He got a piece of meat because maybe it was poisoned and we tested. We needed it. We tested and it was butter. And then they took us. Like I say, we came back. I don't want to skip this little story the way they are treating us there.

Q: Before you go to the castle, I'm just going to ask you a couple of questions before you get to the castle. What were you doing for food?

A: We were given food, bringing into the ghetto. There was a certain place you could go in and pick it up. There was not food, but everybody made a little garden and some people used to go to work and bring food in the ghetto. It was going on like a business.

Q: As a child did you feel hungry all the time?

A: In fact, my mother had a piece of bread and I said to my mother I was hungry, but my brother was hungry and I said, can I have a piece of bread, and she didn't keep it for herself. She keep it for us and I said to my brother, and she said my brother was hungry and gave me a little piece and she didn't take it. We were always hungry. And then they took us from the ghetto out from our house.

End of Tape #1

Tape #2

Q: Now, let's go back and talk about you as a boy in the ghetto. Let's talk about food. Were you hungry a lot?

A: We were hungry all the time. There was not much to eat and like I said, they gave away all other possessions that they had. They go to the gates and for food -- and but in the ghetto someone was going out to work who somehow, some people were making was make like a black market. Some of other people from taking out whatever they can for us.

Some food in the ghetto was not enough, but it was not . When I was in the ghetto, when I was in the ghetto for a long time right after the big action I didn't have too much. When I was in the ghetto, I couldn't remember the month, three quarters of year, and they took us to the castle like I say.

Q: What about other children? Did you play with other children?

A: Yes. In the ghetto I had friends, started a stamp collection. I still have some. We had a little time. Some of them came from other areas. They didn't have a home, have clothes. I was still in my house. I had collections of stamps and some pictures of other guys, and across the street I was living there was a place. This used to be a store like a supermarket and it was 38 very wealthy person, and there was a big yard and people used to come in there and people stop in horses and wagons, not cars. We were more on the farm side, you know. We used to stay over there and buy some food and things like this. They had two sons and we were friends and, in fact, the same age. One was the same age as I am and one was my brother's age and my father was and we were going up together.

This was before the war. I want to point this out because this was at ghetto and then they left and I will tell you what happened. This was before the children used to come to our house and my mother used to make for dinner, and the children used to come eat with us because the reason why, because they had leftovers. The apple, the pear and normal country food was not this time. They used to come and eat the leftovers and my mother said we always cooking for them, and in the ghetto they were taken away. I didn't see them. I saw them for a little while in the ghetto. We couldn't go, you know, across the street and find out where are you. They went somewhere else to work. I saw them right before the action. After the big action, I didn't see them. I didn't see the whole family. I didn't know what happened to them. They were either taken -- I will tell you, we met his 39 father in the concentration camp. We didn't know what happened to them. Houses were taken away from people. There was people were sleeping there. There was no store anymore but this was in the ghetto time and I didn't know what happened to them until we came in the concentration camp until -- I remember them?

Q: Do you remember the games people children play. I know you had your stamps.

A: People children used to play -- jumping on one foot and making -- I was already bigger by this time and the ghetto was around 12 to 13 years and -- you don't jump on one foot --

and Hitler was not in this because we were looking for survival, and he asked me if I was afraid for my life. There was not a day I was not afraid for my life. I came back to the and beginning. Like I mentioned in the beginning, in our house came a family from France, and they were eating the rabbits. But there was a boy. He was very intelligent, young man, my age, and they are burning our place and we were leaving. Like I say they burning some wood for the ghetto to bring, you know, to burn for the, for the office and things like this. They also used to bring boxes from the military for wood for kindling lighting. In the boxes they had a lot of screws and nails and things like this, and this boy was also 40 going to work. It was Sunday and I didn't go to work and this boy said, I have a trick to make and, I said, fine. He said, let's take two of the bulbs and take two screws put them together and put inside some and you see it will like explode.

This was in the ghetto time. We are going back to the ghetto. He also handy and he told me -- I was doing it and I took it, the knot and put a screw in one side, a metal screw and filled up the knot with heavy powder and filled it with powder put another screw in the other side, and took a rope from side and tied it up and swung it and knocked it against the wall. And in our backyard -- and there was in our backyard was a building for bricks, you know, for the , you know, where you put the garbage cans and cans with emptying. We had just drop it in and sort it out. It was made out of brick. When I was swinging this string with this wire knot it exploded, but it gave such a shot that we were not too far away from the gate and from the and the Germans were guarding. And like I say, they were on the other side and from nowheres we get such a shot and the smoke came out and I didn't know what happened to me. And there was completely exploded and the knot was going, and I see the wire in my hand, and it took me three 41 seconds, five seconds, ten seconds. Missiles were coming from out of the other side from the ghetto, and they cut the wire and came in right away from the army. I don't know where they came and they surrounded the whole area and said who shot? And what happened, this piece of wire, this piece of metal fly so far and hit one the soldiers in the helmet. And I didn't know what happened. And they said who shot all they came in to our place where we were living and took everybody out the houses. And those people are going to work some. Took my mother my father, everybody, who shot? And I was the one who did it. And I spoke German and I was getting better in German. I was getting better, got used the to the , you know, it seemed like the Jews were getting close to German. I had to, when this shot was going, to kill us and I raised my hand and I said, I did it with this little French boy and somehow, you know, I spoke to him and one the Germans said -- and they were also Partisans there -- and they took us and put us with this man, and was almost big, big, man for the German and said, where is the gun? We said, we don't have a gun he said -- we are praying -- he said, how are you doing it? I had to demonstrate and, of course, when he saw what I'm going 42 to demonstrate, and he told the whole 50 or 60 soldiers and rifles, and one of them with the knife out and sent them back out to go on. And there are new soldiers and I have to demonstrate, and it didn't work I tried to bang it and bang it and, the German said, I'm going to show you. And he took it in the hand and knocked it and almost knocked it off his hand and burned him. He had gloves and he said, I see how you did it. He was really embarrassed to things like this. He didn't realize it was going to

explode but this guy from France, I know his father told them, I don't know how he came in to idea and, of course, he realized that this was no or whatever, then realized, and he felt a little bit bad and knocked it with a stone and made with a stone.

And it made him a little bit more guilty, and somehow he could kill us like nothing and only flying and you know, he had the power. He didn't have the chance of playing in the ghetto. This was my play and I didn't have much time to play because we had to go to work.

Q: What were you doing?

A: I worked in the airport. They were putting in some stones and loading and unloading trucks for the Germans, and some of them were load it out and put it 43 in the airplanes and . There was an airplane, you know, it was a big it up and I was working. They gave us also -- you always to do something in the ghetto. I was there. I used to -- people made gardens and they used to take us to pull out the carrots and potatos and dig it up and plant a little around. Some backyards had a lot and belong not to the people, but belong to the people in the committee, and they used to give it out to the people. This was my work.

Q: Were there other young boys your age? You were about 13?

A: My brother was there and my brother was also involved same like me, but he was somehow going more to work like I did. I used to go three times a week and he had to go five times a week. He was a little older, and sometimes my father said go and he can stay.

You didn't have a choice what to do. But somehow I stayed behind in the ghetto. I had to do something. I had to go to the and things like this. My brother was older by this time and he got so survived.

Q: What do you remember about the Jewish Police?

A: I didn't see because when I was in the ghetto was in the beginning, you know. Some of them is good 44 people. Everywhere some of them was showing a good face for the Germans and Lithuanian soldiers and pushing around and kicking around. Some of them have to do it and some of them, you know, were nice. And so long as they have something to do. I didn't see too much bad from the police because like I say, I was at the end of it. Some of them were bad. I remember from the concentration camp, a couple, but there was also the Germans, Jewish men, and who was not but I didn't have too much connection with the Jewish Police.

Q: Your family knew Dr. Elkus(ph).

A: My father knew him from in the army and Lithuanian and had he knew Dr. Elkuis personally, and maybe he got is or something. He was a very famous doctor, and in the camps he was doing something for my father. He operated on his foot.

Q: Do you remember him from the ghetto or not?

A: I remember Dr. Elkus -- he was a big man, he was doing his job. He was organizing people to go to work and things like this. He was on the committee as much as I can remember, but my father remembered him from the young years when we were free. Then of course, when in the concentration camp with him.

Q: Was there any schooling at all? Was there anybody 45 teaching?

A: Yes. They called , you know, there was schools in the ghetto where they were teaching not just for our benefit but for their benefit. There was electrician school and there was a school for mechanical things.

Q: The Germans set it up?

A: In the ghetto the Jews set it up and the Germans support it, but I didn't have a chance to go to this place because I was deported to the this other place. The castle they call this.

Q: Do you remember when you were deported to this castle?

A: It was in the beginning of summer, like I say, in May or April like this.

Q: In "41, no? It was "42. Like I say, I was half wartime in the castle then. I was in the ghetto, but I came to the ghetto a few times. I will tell you this time. After I was in the ghetto I was in the castle -- of course, they took us. I want to come back to this. They took us out from the house they brought us like a jail that was there, the was the name of it, the . I. don't know what it was. There were people they are not being nice in the ghetto. 46 Some people have a little whiskey or something, or some of the Germans put them in for punishment. And this was in the ghetto. They put us in maybe with about ten families and they get from other places and they put us in, stay here. We thought they were going to kill us. We asked the Jewish Police what are they going to do with us? We couldn't take nothing for our house, nothing. He came in and he said, look, I am going to work. I will . We are going to the . My father knew the area.

There was a castle. There was a castle. This was from the president or the king of Lithuania, and they took us there. We have to go by foot. It was about 15 or some kilometer. We were marching there. We didn't know where we were going. They came in. They walked out from the ghetto. We saw the ghetto farther and father away. We are going with guard of course. It was maybe a 100 families and there was young people.

There was not too many girls. Most of them were boys and the girls, of course, were also in the ghetto. But I saw girls before the war but but was girls -- but I was not -- didn't see too many girls in the area where I was. And they took us by foot to this castle and we came there, and there was a box built, a little house like. It was before they looked 47 before, and we sat. And there was wires around. It was like a ghetto

but it was a little ten blocks. It was a place and there was a purpose for water outside, and there was not too much. And there was what I call a garage, like a sack and there was a place to keep the food and there was no place to play football there. It was very together.

And a little farther you look out from the other side, you could see the . It was the castle and not too far away, and you go in this one and you go in this one. Luckily, it was still my father and my mother and my brother. We were lucky there. It was lucky I would say I was the lucky one to be with the family together, in this particular area and they took us the right next day and a was the man in charge and I remember he had this family too. I forgot his wife and in this group was only one small child. They hide it in the ghetto and -- I don't know how they brought him in, hiding in a box or something -- made him to come in. This little boy was around five years old.

There was no way for five year old to survive. But in the ghetto was a few people before they made the they called us. They take all the children on the force and they had some small children in the ghetto, hiding and things like this, and in this 48 castle there was most of the people were my age, a little older, who, of course, the people like my mother and my father. And there was a families. Not families, a few. There were some families, lost their family already in the big action. I was really -- not all the people -- I was really this family was holding together. The rest was already torn apart.

And they made us to go to work there. We go there and I was working in the castle and there , and we making the rooms, rooms making ride around with horse and build a school and put in . We were always doing this type of work, but there was a German almost it was a big man. A little bit less . He was the man in charge to make sure the people should go to work. That was his duty. But this man also had barber used to cut the hair for the soldiers. He was he was was not he was cutting the hair for the soldiers and then he and he choose me to take this like this. I should make sure and I be the first one back, and soap to be clean and I was back, make sure everybody got a soap to be clean or this get a and I was in charge, like to give out the . Ina way I was very obeying orders. What did you want me to do? He was like a 49 German, like any German. But we didn't feel the presence because we were away from the ghetto. I to do this and I was to take other work. I was walking over to . He was a sculptor and he was make a face for Hitler and I have to assist him, but before I came to this in this camp and in this castle, I was doing, I was doing all kind of work. And my mother was going out with the womens to cut woods. They are cutting go down trees. The men were doing and a little bit other works, cement and things like this. In there in this castle they were building it so fast. They could do things overnight. They building a school and brought the -- this brought in over there for Hitler to -- they brought in from France the a lot of people young people my age, and we were a little bit younger, and little bit older. The older boys were going to gentile they had to have duty. They learn to be a soldier too.

They have the right to have a rifle. There was a little called him. He was kind and he was guarding me sometime and guarding everybody, but one day I saw him. I was going out with my mother this time in the field to cut the trees, and this time I was going to cut the tree and this was -- before I was telling you, I was telling you about the and he went -- my 50 mother was not pulling the saw so fast, and he took a stick and he

beat my mother. And I was not far away and I was running to him but other people were holding me. Father was not there and they were holding me back not to go, and hit my mother. And I remember this and this one was on duty. He was two days with the rifle and two days, I was working there in this castle for bring water, was water was there is not water. You had to go to the water and bring it to the kitchen for the soldiers. I was walking and I overhear you look like you're handy. You're going to help me out there. I was not there three months and there was a sculptor and he was making a face for Hitler, and I was talking to him he was a because I was going on what's going on? But everybody -- there was not one person in the German Army. Biggest one, he was very intelligent man and he made a face of Hitler, this the sculptor and I was supplying him with the clay, making the clay make forms. When day when I remember this boy was hitting on my mother and beating up my mother, and this was area in the area and sometimes we had to go out and fill up a bucket of water, and I say one day he came in for duty and he was on the second floor -- no top floor -- where he was putting a sculptor 51 and he said to me go down -- in German -- bring me some water and they show this fresh water coming in well. There was a kitchen downstair and there was a smaller building, and there was a cook and there was a bunch of prostitutes, and there was and they were working for the Germans. And they were having a good time with the soldier and this was all going on over there. When I go down, he told me to go down with the bottle and I took the bottle with me and I and he bring the bottle over to -- and nobody's there. And he is downstairs in the kitchen there and I took the bottle and opened up the nozzle and washed the bottle nice. I didn't know if the German was watching me or not. I filled up the bottle and I closed it up and I close it up and I taste it. I was thirsty and honestly, I was dropping it. I was afraid to spill it on the ground. I was dripping a little in my mouth and I felt a push and, you know, and my mouth went right in the nozzle. And I opened my eyes and I see this beat up my mother. He didn't have a rifle. He took a stick and was trying to make like the horse going faster -- I don't know how you say it in English -- the took the and he start whipping me, you know, because when he pushed me I fell. I went up against him. I thought it cut 52 my throat, whatever. He took this stick and he was smashing me and beating me up, and the girls, don't hit him, girls from the beat him, give him and everyone on his side, of course, and I had been very thirsty and, you know, the bottle I had for the and he standing on the bucket -- and I don't know. He beat me so fast I couldn't take it. I pulled the rope and I kicked him. When I kicked him -- and this was the basement and he fall. He lost his grip and he fell in the basement. And soon as I did this, of course -- he was also a soldier. He run out. All the girls and a couple soldiers right away, and one of the them put a rifle. And they were German too. A little drunk and having a good time with the girls. They were going to shoot me. They were going to shoot me. It was a miracle at the time this was going on, one of Germans said, you know what you do? You pushed a German. And they were going to shoot me. There was no way to survive but he looked like -- he told me later -- there it is not to too far away and he said to them in German, what is going on here? And I told him. I was bleeding from my mouth a little bit and I told him I was cleaning the bottle and he said, don't tell me. I saw everything. He saw what was going on. He saw that I didn't

drink from this 53 bottle. He said, I saw. I was laying down and dripping it from the bottle dry, in into my mouth and, of course, he was such a big man. All of them were -- with the revolver to my head, he was afraid to say a word against him. , you know, let the boy go. He was walking with me and it's not his fault, it's his fault, he started up with him. That's what he said. I took the bottle and went up with him, and I took the bottle and went up with him and he told me if I needed -- he didn't give me any water. Are you okay? I okay. I felt like I should say, but I didn't. There was water like I take for the clay, not for me to drink because there was no glass. I . There was water that I used for the clay. It was clear water from the well for the clay -- and take another clean water. No drinking water but this was clean water from the well. We had other water also but it was not drinking, for drinking. But I think I remember I took a little bit to the water and washed my face and then I walked with him over there for a little while, and then he was deported, you know, they took him away somewhere. To go I was walking again and with these people and they walk in the woods, and they saw this whole thing until this was going on. But in same time I was going out my 54 tooth was hurting me, and the men said to me in the ghetto, they have a tooth doctor, A dentis, you know, they had in the ghetto they had everything. They said we have to go bring some food for the camp. We are going to take you and your father this time and we will take you to the dentist and see what they can do. He was a nice man. I went with my father and we are there in the area and we came into the ghetto. I went -- I came into the ghetto. They didn't let us in the ghetto. But the gates not too far away, wagon with a little truck which belonged to the German and good for they -- and this camp and this was for this one and there wasn't and we had to load it on. I wanted to go to the dentist, you know, but somehow the police, they said to my father, don't go in the ghetto because there is going to be a . There is going to be a selection and taking out all the children. Because when they closed up the gates nobody can go in the ghetto, nobody can come out of the ghetto and the policeman told us we supposed to go out to the castle but we couldn't go out. But luckily, I don't know, somehow it must have been the telephone and things like this, they delayed us for about an hour. And all of sudden they came and they the trucks were full and they made the selection. 55 They went in every house over there and they went deep in the ghetto, and I was right by the gates. I was on the other side of the gates, not where I was in the beginning. They were making the selection already. Already they killed people. They -- whatever they could grab. They grabbed the girl and raped her and they cry. Of course, I didn't see it but other people told us, and I know from other people what was going on. And luckily, they had to let us out of the gate because they needed food for this place. He was driving the horse and you couldn't going by German. He was in camp where I was there and we went out and was the are you going on the selection in the ghetto. We came back to this. We were not too far from home. It was about a half hour, hour, not too far away from this place, and we came home and told them what was going on. Selection again. Only for children.

They took children, older people, whatever. They couldn't -- they cleared it up. But the next day this I got a note from, you know, the telephone call. The German on the telephone. They are going to check it out in our camp too. There was maybe me, my brother and a few other boys, but then and there was a little boy five years old, and

this five-year-old boy had a brother my age. So 56 like I say, and the mother was there.

The whole family was like sticking together. This this man that was in charge, he came out. He said, look, I know you have a small son. There you just make yourself tall. I remember. I was a tall boy and I would survive. I will tell them you were important. He has a job he was doing. The -- he had a list of what they are doing. They came in a Jeep, a military car, but Gestapo, the SS, everybody, had to take the barracks.

The little boy was in the same barrack where -- he was sleeping. They took the little boy and put him on the like they used to do this too. And a German officer or somebody from the army or the ghetto, he looked at. He walked in and look at the little stick and I stood up straight and said you know, look, muscles, like a dog, you know. Then I said , you know, small children here. The little one opened up his mouth and said to him -- I never forget this -- he said to him, no, there is no small children. All the children are sleeping, sleeping but he was looked like a German.

I'm sure but somehow they in German but somehow made him so he said, you know, to the little one, he didn't do nothing to him. And they walked out and for now they did nothing. We thought 57 already this a miracle happening, but I think it was in it was the next day or the same day came out a car with different Germans. They arrested the little boy and the man -- you take out a rifle to him big, little for the camp, on the in and the mouth, where is the little boy? He couldn't run out of the place and he couldn't run out from the place. There was all the soldiers. They pulled away this little boy from the -- and the Germans inthe _, like a dog. I'm talking about my horse. And like an animal and this little, mommy, mommy. You could see it. You see sometimes in the films. I saw it with my own eyes. She passed out, the mother because the father was at work, you know ready to go, ready to go. I think it was the money. They took him away and that's it. This was the experience in this camp. We were walking there. There are so many stories to tell about this. It was not . I was beaten up a little bit too. And then the time came and we found out the Russians are coming closer to the area. You have to be liquidated. And they said to us, this work will stop. And I have a story. Was going there with the time for this.

We stop this walk. Now, we said -- now, we're going to take you back to the ghetto and this is going to be no more job for you. 58 We got to the ghetto. That's it. They going to lull us. It was a few days. They gave us a warning. We didn't have possessions. Just clothes, a few things, nothing to take with us. And they said I don't know where -- the German in charge look, I don't know. Where we going? We go to the ghetto. We are going like lambs. We couldn't fight because everybody was against you. If you go out to the line, they shoot you. If you go out to ask help for a little, they give you out. You have to go like a lamb. There was no way to give resistance and they took us back like foot, and the same way we came there and it was, of course, a year later they took us.

Q: You were in the castle for a year you think?

A: I was -- would say it was close to a year. I was in the ghetto until the big action.

Q: How was the health of your mother and your father?

A: Luckily, it was not so bad. Of course, we had aches and pains. Who cares? You know, you want to survive. You couldn't complain. Now I complain all the time, sometimes to the doctor, but you couldn't do this. But at this time my father was younger than me than Iam now. In the 40 and 50, like this. Somehow he was -- he wanted to be alive, to survive. You gets along even if you have some health. You talk yourself 59 into this that it don't hurt.

Q: What sort of food did you have in this castle?

A: Not bad, because we were we organized food. The woman could cook a little bit in this barracks. It was not bad. It was like the same way in the ghetto. But we had enough food. I remember before I go farther -- I am stopping all the time. I remember there was a time when they found a man wandering outside. They stopped him and they put him in the camp where we are. They pull down the pant and he is circumcised. We got a Jew.

They beat him up to death. They beat him so he couldn't talk. He was a little bit crazy, and they called in and said they are going to kill him. All of is sudden a Kapo came

this was their son. He was not Jewish. They came to the German and had pictures too. They had a they show it was not a Jew. It was not Jew because this is how they treat us, you know. He was a little bit mentally. He run away from the house. They told him he was circumcised because he was sick or something. And they almost killed him but ambulance came to take him out. This was the way. No respect for the Jews.

Anyway, going back they tell us we have to leave -- ?

Q: Let me ask you another

Q: How did you 60 sleep?

A: In this particular place there was old mattress, smelling and things like that. A little boy was hiding under. The mattress was straw. We had a roof. We went through the cold weather and it was really not comfortable, to say it was livable, but we managed it.

Q: Did you have nightmares?

A: Always get scared to see what was going on, everyone there, people were dying. In our camp sometimes they couldn't make it or beaten up. It is not so paradise in this place either, but still was better than in the concentration camp, and we had nightmares. I still have nightmares. I still remember things. Sometimes I watch a movie and I think I am living there. This is -- I saw Schindler's List. It's nothing. It's much worser. I didn't see a good German. I will tell you a little farther if I have the time. They put us -- and have to go back to the ghetto -- and they march us back to the ghetto. And like I said, it was on the left side of the -- and the ghetto was on the right and the gates were now moved around. Not the wire. It was original, but they moved it closer to move to the exit like you go to it was right in a fork. We are going there 61 and praying to God not to go to the left side, because the left side going to Nitenfort. Then they move us

to start to go to the right and they move to the right, and certain three, four lines away from the front and I said to my mother get in the back because, you know, you find out you are going to the right side, and then we walk in the ghetto. Soon as we get in the ghetto we are nowhere right away. The police, the Kapos said you have to go to the right. In here and stay there. Don't move until you get orders. We don't know where to go, what to do, but my father had two, cousins in the ghetto and we didn't know. We came back. We were sitting there, waiting for order and all of sudden I think was maybe the police. He is of not policeman. He said you met my father and he said where are you? I'm staying in the barrack. You want to go. Maybe you should come to us. You want to go to them. We didn't know what to do. they have coming in and surrounding the ghetto with machine guns. The whole army was there with loudspeakers.

People are going to be liquidated to Germany for work it was most of them working for.

Q: They're announcing this?

A: Yes. In the ghetto on loudspeakers, and it was 62 panicking. You see sometimes the moving is chaos, but luckily, my father met his brother and said we should go over there.

We went over to the house where he was. A barrack, maybe 500 men living in one block.

But we couldn't get in. Of course, it was occupied. We were sitting outside the whole night, holding together my mother, father, brother, and my aunt came outside and everybody should get out from the houses.

Q: Is this because the bombs were coming?

A: No, no bombs. It was like chaos. The people were hiding and running like it was a raid, an air raid. It was a raid for the Germans, and anything was trying to escape from the ghettos, he shoot them right on the spot. They surrounded. The whole army was there.

They put and said, this, this, this, move the people. Let's go. Set up in a line and you're going. They took them on a ride. My mother, my father, my brother was in one side and my uncle was on the other, and they took us from the ghetto and they took us to the place where the people are working, to the airport. But they didn't take us to the airport. They was taking you can see it on the map if you have a map of this. They took us down to the train and the trains -- we were walking maybe halfa day, andthe _-- were laughing, spitting on us, having a good 63 time. We didn't know where we are going. We didn't believe them. We didn't go to the fork. We are going downtown, you know. It was a little bit, but we saw the dead constant. We saw dead people. It is not simple what I am saying. People are falling like flies. They are shooting people, people who can't work.

They take pistol out and shooting people came to work like dogs. We coming into this train station there. There was wagons like you have in the museum in Washington, full of stenching, stinking, you know, from the cow and they said one, two, three, four, five, in here. And my father all together in here and somehow we managed, me, my father and my mother. We went and my uncle and this family all in the same wagon?

Q: Your brother too?

A: My brother too. Of course, my two cousins cause one was dead already in the ghetto and brother and about another 50 people. And we were sitting there a day. We didn't know what was going to be. It was hot outside like this time of the year, and then all of a sudden they said and came and closed up. They closed us up right away, like a cow. We couldn't go out and there was wires on the little window and they announced the train start moving, you know, like toot, 64 toot, start moving. It was going to take us to Danzig. We didn't know where we were going really and we didn't have any food, anything in this train this time. Absolutely nothing. And we were going a whole day and people have to go and piss water and stool and there was nowhere to go, and there was a bucket and how much 50 people in a bucket? And some people were a little embarrassed, women and men, but in this time you didn't see these things. This was when you have to do these things, trying to the little window to pull out the side and the Germans were sitting on the roof and knocking them down banging over the head. And I remember we were going and going and all of sudden the train stop, and there was a bucket of food, like for the people, you know. I don't remember. It was like in a paper, a piece of bread.

People were trying to grab and it one of the guys was there and said, wait a second. We all in the same boat. Let's try to be humanized, not like animals.

Q: What said this?

A: Another -- my father said, no. There was a man and my father said to him some who have these whatever food was there and we was going traveling like this maybe three days. And we saw to the front the wagon the city, is going to and places. 65 People are leaving and and we go to the station where the train is, has to go to a station sometimes stopping because they have to give it right of way to other trains. And there was a life going on. Normal people are dressed and, you know, laughing, reading newspaper and outside, and we were going to die. Of course, and then we came closer to the German part and we came to Germany. We didn't know where we were going. We are going back and forth. And then all of sudden my cousin was -- one of the cars wanted to jump to the train and get a ride, but somehow the wagon got caught, a little cut in the middle of night. He got open the top and trying to crawl and he have succeeded right on the roofs. He could not escape from the train either. We are going and all of a sudden Danzig. We saw a sign the train stopped in Stutthof, and said to us we go out and we couldn't breathe anymore, and the urine and the stool and we didn't make it, but we didn't make in, not in our pant. And we made it on the floor. It was full with the cows. It was a disaster. I think maybe another day we be choked on the fumes. They stop the train and he said men men separate and fathers separate, and then, of course, they took away. I said bye to my mother and my aunt and all this, and 66 we had a piece of bread and I gave to my mother, I remember and Reds came and but some were a little younger because some came from the ghetto and they was mixed up. And in the ghetto there was a few youngsters my age. They went with the mother. Instead of I went with my father and my brother. I stayed with the men side, but

it didn't take too long soon. They took out the was left more room with, because they took out. They didn't put in new people. We saw people with the stripes. Already was during the war, taking the people in the camp and we waved before the door closed up and waved to my mother and that's it. The train started blowing the whistle and going with a run away full speed, we going again, maybe a day or two days. And there was a stop again and they give us water to drink and they put a bucket and one glass, I think, and there was a glass, a can they give us. Drink whatever and we came in the Dachau.

We saw to this camp, overheard. People knew about already about Dachau and things like this. We came into Dachau and instead of no this one is. We shouldn't stay here on this train. This is train is going to Landsberg, not to Dachau and this train is going this way. And then we going backwards, you know, they put another -- they going to the machine to 67 pull us out. We are in the camp, they pull us out and we are going back. And this would take maybe about three or four hour, and we came in away from Dachau and came in a place and they and we walked out. We don't see nothing.

An empty spot. This was Landsberg blocks made out of cardboard you see like the tins, like paper and right away they start kicking you. So the people, you know, with the

not the Jews, but they had Jewish stars with a "V" like up sideway Germans also some of them and they were it -- and it almost people, you know. Whatever they called them. You know, it was all kind of people there.

Murderers. They put them in this place. The guy, the guy he was already a Meister over us the Kapo and they are doing the whole thing and some who have them they put us right away kicking and kicking, and they take us to a big build and they said, you are going to be unclothed and to clean us up. We don't know what is happening and here I am holding with my brother and father and things like this. They coming in Dachau hundreds of people. A whole big thing going on and we have to walk over to this building and stay alive. You are going to get a shower and a uniform, and everything you possesses if somebody has something from the 68 ghetto, whatever it is.

There was a new German at a table and give it to them. You have to be completely undressed when you go into the shower. We knew. We heard about the stories of the crematorium and this, but somehow we didn't feel this a working camp and the guys said, don't worry. You are going to work and you people was and they put us in over there and everything. One was undressed and some of them had some ring hiding, whatever, something, whatever they brought from ghetto. They all together.

There was 5,000 people in this camp and maybe there is a couple thousand people. They call a transport in the train and they came from other places and put everything over there. We have to undress and we have to go into in this . We have to wait but we don't know. We don't see people coming out. There was another exit and we saw people coming out dressed already. So we had a feeling this was -- so we go in and everybody was undressed and Jewish people and men. There was there before us not just Jewish people no. They had some spray. You started to spray you under the arm, on the part, the men part, over the hair. They try spray it right in your eye. They was laughing.

This was already a working camp. There was the . Anyway, they put us in the showers. A 69 whole building sort of this. There was water coming out. It was ice cold.

This was terrible. People passed out, and then it was a little bit warm and we went

through this one. And there was uniforms waiting on the other side and look. And they said, look, __ some for them was too short. Everybody get a uniform. I got a uniform. I was lost in it and this man said give me this one and I switched with him. There was no shirt or nothing. Just a uniform with stripes and little hat. They kicked us, of course, and there were German people working there. And they put us in a line and said one, two, three, four, you go in this part. And one, two, three, four, and number one is -- it two and somehow I stick with my, with my uncle. I don't know what's happen today. My cousin, he's disappeared I was holding onto my father and we falling. In the beginning in one barrack and come back there was nothing for the dig. There was cardboard made. It was a digged out on the inside and there was made from cardboard and nothing. The was still warm, but you were making the box yourself and the box then the next we have to stay there and we were sleeping there. There was a little, little bit straw under the bed. Lay down and no pillows or nothing. This was where we sleep. This 70 was with the working camp. This was the building. Camp was built by this time that we came in, and we stay overnight and sometime before we came to the barracks -- I skipped something. I have to go back. They said to the people, where are your possessions? All of the people before they go into the shower, they have had a ditch out like a toilet and you sit over this and behind, and they make the and you can see it was falling. There was people before. There was a ditch there where people before.

It was a long ditch I would say around five or six hundred foot long. And when they came out and said -- a lot of people, you know, saving diamond ring or some money, whatever they had from the ghetto, throw it in the ditch to give to the Germans.

Somehow they give to the Germans. Somehow they had work for it and they came out and they said they'd like to have all the doctors, the lawyers. I have special work for them and we have a lot of intelligent people there. My father was going but I can't. I'm too young, but my father didn't want to raise his hand to say he was not a doctor, but Jewish people are a lot of intelligent people. But before the people, they tell them before they told the people that had the uniform before they went to the back, undress I'm going to give special 71 work for you. You are going to go inside and take out with your hand whatever you find this. You have to take out the wastes from the people with their hand.

And there was maybe a two foot or one foot and the fumes and the heat, and it was drying from the sun. It was smelly in this area. You couldn't get -- you could get far away. People going in, half of them didn't go out. And they fall in. They pull them out, dead. And they fall in. We thought we never survive this. They came out smelling, you know, the people that came out that survived. Of course, they didn't let them in. They took I didn't see because they said one of them, this is the work that you Jews are going to get. For us this was intelligent. This is what you have to do. You have no right to be a doctor or a lawyer or whatever it was. Of course, I was not in the ditch. I stayed in the back, and in the morning we hear a whistle and there was a place to go out and they said to us, make groups we are going to work in . It's about four or five kilometers from this area. And at the same time you are going to make a building barracks for us, you know, to give us a paradise. We going to be in heaven and they took the group and this time I was lucky and stay with my father and brother and stay in the same 72 line. There was a -- there was a man Bergman(ph) he was also from the ghetto.

He was a Kapo. He was nice to me. He was already with our group but he was an intelligent person and these in the was a leader in the Gestapo and he raised his hand. He spoke fluent German. You are going to be in charge and make group and make the groups together and to tell for the people. And we had a number. This number is going with this one, and we are going to this field to work. It was an empty field. There was nothing there. It was completely flat. We going to start from scratch and tell us what to do. And everybody have to take is a shovel and start digging. We are organized already before us and there were some spots already built. And this was the work we are going to do and we work the whole day. And we didn't know what we are doing. And they come with machinery and bulldozers, bulldozers and building up a mountain and we couldn't understand why they building a mountain. There was fog in this area, and for a while you could see and they build a mountain and they have a plan what to do. They going to make a bunker. How you going to make a bunker from a mountain? They make it maybe to be two-mile long and quarter wide and this was our job there. Our job to put in with the 73 sand and bring it in and coming with bulldozers we create a mountain.

End of Tape #2

Tape #3

Q: You were describing this bunker, this mountain?

A: Right. They are building up, of course, coming in with big train and filling it up and soften up and build. You go up the mountain and then when this was done, they put like a little layer of grass and put in sticks, metal sticks. All that was maybe a mile was metal that was maybe two or three foot long, all over. You couldn't pass by and then in the machinery on each side of the mountain of the and start putting in cement and there was machinery coming in with for other camp. And we had to stay with

and build all this, like stages, like steps and push away the gate then run down.

They started from the and they made the gates from wood and, of course, they doing this and filled up the hill and made the other up and build up and they build up maybe four or five foot ditch, and they cover up the whole mountain with cement. And then they came with the machinery and start digging up and move away the

farther away and start digging in two or three foot. It was very deep. You could see down. It was 74 like the 15-floor deep in the floor and they started filling up with cement again. They made it I would say, the size of this room. I would say about 40 foot thick, thick cement all around, fully up to the hill of the mountain. And when they are doing it they made a downstair and made like corridors, and you could walk in the cement and they came with bulldozer. Later on they come bury the whole thing in the ground and from the outside stick out just the mountain and all this cement was built up so heavy. They put layers of grass and then when you looked at this, it look like a mountain, like a normal hill. Only sometimes we are were doing this type of work and we had the Jewish -- this was really like we have the Jewish system -- it was really the time people used to fall in the cement and never came out. And I think hundreds of people buried. Almost I fall in there but I was lucky this time again and wasn't working there.

And my father was falling a lot because the work was so hard and stinking in the night time, and from the cement and the powder and the water, and I can't even explain, and it was going on. I can't even explain the way it was working. It is like you see a factory with machines and not stopping, and it was going on and people dying. The guards would say, give an 75 example, a hundred people from my group. Two is missing all the time.

Every day was dead people there. And there was the work we are doing there and when we had the mountain down. And this and they came to start from the beginning and came with machinery and dig out the inside and made another empty stadium answer inside, like you see the dome where they play the football. That's the way it looked inside from the ground. But before this was going on there was work I had to do. It was work we have to going on constant until the end of liberation. It was not completely finished. I am giving the picture of the way this is building it, and I was working with my father there at this time. And there was a German that was in charge of our group, but somehow I was away, say I was lucky. I was never lazy. It just like the way I was, work.

But I was watching him. He wasn't watching me. It was survival and my brother not so watchful, always get a little and all this. But in the time we were working there, we been through a lot of experiences. But to start with the experience that I will begin

with is we were working there one day. I was going out to work and there was a I men, already a Jewish man. He was putting together the groups. There was a man, a 76 German, came out and said, who speaks good German? I didn't speak so well German but I figure I raise my hand. You speak German? I got a job for you. He said I should take this briefcase and come in there, and you going to have a job. You going to be the fire. You going to put fire in the ovens for the soldiers. They had maybe 15 little boxes and had three or four soldiers which can go inside and warm up the hands.

We work also in the wintertime there. But doing this I felt a little bit free. 1 could go and after bringing coals for the -- when I left my father and brother working on this bunker that they were working. And one day my father came and they almost killed me. The same German that was nice, my father told -- he told my father, he told me to leave the job. Nothing like this. Anyway, there was my father he was beaten up because I have left the place. It was not his fault. It was not my fault. I lucky to get a better job. In this job I was doing I was constantly going out and getting fire for the soldiers, putting in fire for the ovens for the soldiers are and just by doing this I had a little bit there was soldiers all around the area, and nobody was in back of -- he says I use today. Go and take a bag and fill up the bag with coal and go back 77 with the coal. And meanwhile, I pass by the place they were building the bunker and without a guard, and by doing this I was putting the fire in the ovens. There was a lot of Germans used to peeling potatos, of apple or something, and used to go into my pocket. But I didn't have the heart to eat it, and I used to always feel like I have a duty to give the food to my father and my brother because I had it much easier than they did. And this was going on for quite a while. I was doing this type of work, but in the time this experience I had one day a German came to me come we me. Take my briefcase case and come with me. You come with me.

They took me out and I was going maybe for a mile, and this time the war was coming close. Airplanes were coming to bomb Germany and this was the time of -- it was still a long time for me. I thought it would never end. But really the Americans were getting involved already and bombing Berlin. And this German, I was walking with him and all of a sudden these two airplanes, these MIGS, it was two MIGS, MIGS or something, Americans. They came so low because it was so empty at the -- came down with machine, ta-ta-ta-ta-ta and on me and this German. And he was a big German and I don't know, he had a big -- he was not maybe they had so many 78 titles but I don't know. He was a big man too, and he was going to mail something. He thought maybe I was going to -- I was going around and said to put the coals. Now, you go with me and he said to go with him. I go with him and take this briefcase when the airplanes came on us, there was no way. There was a little tree far away, but this was nothing. They were building -- they are building for to land for airplanes in the bunker. And then he said to me, stay still. And he just took his hat and the airplane go by and he took off his hat, and took off his hat. He throw this on the ground and lay on his back and head to the side.

And I thought he was dead. He's dead. I really thought he was dead. But he was not dead, but then the airplane passed by. He said he talked to me to stay straight. You shouldn't move. You can look up if you want to see the airplane. He was so smart, but airplanes came down again and they saw him laying down and they raised up and stopped shooting. They raised up and they disappeared. Then I stand up and I am smarter than

them. He noticed it was . He could be dead. He was lucky that he didn't get a bullet. If he would be dead, I would not be alive either. This was one was experience.

However, I will tell another experience. I was 79 walking around with another German soldier and he was from the Wehrmacht, and he walked over to me one day. You thought I look like his brother. He was blonde with blue eyes, beautiful young man. I see nice man. He was a good looking man and I looked up at him. And he was so uniform -- he was not in SS. he was from the Wehrmacht, from the soldier, and then ghetto. I look like his brother and he was on duty and he was guiding the people. They were walking and every group had a soldier to watch them, and everyone had a Meister soldier to watch them and there was a Meister, the people that give you the orders to every day. I have duty. I will give you a leave it and you pick it up, and this can't be a German. Was a good person, a good man but this was one was going on for a while and then one day raid and this time we were walking there, and it was also full of the bunker they are building. A little farther away was like wood and one of us was going to the truck and it was muddy and you go in muck. And I sat in this area I looked for my father all the time and my brother. And every time I had something in my pocket and bring it to them and they were working in this area, and so bring it to them because they were working in this area. The guard was standing farther away a 80 few other with work other sections. Block number five, six, seven, eight and there were another blocks to make. There was were a few other to make ten, nine, whatever and there more barracks on the other side. Then I happened to be there in that area and all ofa sudden the the raid was there and everybody had to lay. This good German was with this group. I saw him before. I didn't talk to him so often. I looked like his brother.

He gave mea he told me a little bit, about the story, where he came, and I didn't know he was from Germany. He was from or something. He told me a little bit about his family. He don't know where his family is. He complained a little bit and this was the raid. And everybody had to lay down and throw everything down and be still.

The airplanes were coming down. They was going down to look like bomb. Knew nothing, we were not too far away from Munich. This was not bombing. They was going to Berlin. Everybody lay down. There was a Jewish group, most of them were Jewish. I was not in this group but I have to lay down at this, if I am and this German was a good German. And there was a few other soldiers and this good German, and a few other soldiers standing there. And he was not sitting down on the ground. He was 81 standing nicely and leaning against a tree and the airplanes making noises, and all of a sudden the noises stop and noises and then, all of stop. You have to wait, not to move until the noise comes back. Then because the raid is over, when they pass by they can make you are even signals at a couple miles away. And they start working again. And then raid was going on one. Men felt uncomfortable maybe going to 50 foot from one end to the other, start calling to go on the other side. My good friend took out a pistol and shot him right in the head and his head blow off. He had a bullet, and everybody gets frightened. And I remember I was a little farther away from me but the blood was all over, and there was a drop of blood on me, a mark, my stomach. Oh, my God, I am going to be alive. It was a nice German and all of a sudden. The raid it is over and everybody stand up to go back to the place they work. I didn't see him the second day

later. I was supposed to come again because it was maybe going on for a month or something. Everything time there a piece of bread, whatever, cheese. The next day I was afraid to go over and pick it up, but I felt I was not I was a young fellow. I didn't have had no, couldn't say. I was an intelligent person, so many schools and years, 82 but I learned to be a human being before the war start. Wait a second. If I am not going to go to him he might shoot me or whatever, might shoot. And I had the going on -- he was never there. When I put the wood and some of the __ said if I met him, you know, I play dumb. Why? Should I? You, this swine is this pig. You know, he could kill us. All because of him we be bumped from the Americans two mile in the air. There were you put up aluminium foil against raid. And anyway, I lost me a couple days but he was

I was going a couple days and -- army we used to keep the solders not too often.

There was a couple and they was going and then this from there. Then I had the experience they used to come in the camp and they putting the woman to works in the area and in our camp. They want the woman for the other camp and they were working the kitchens there and cleaning for the soldiers and also working other places. The older lady with no hair look like boy and uniforms, and they used to make get a shower. Once in a while they build a nice -- it was a barrack but it was better than the first one. And they had a little corridor and they were so even in a working camp. They put in the people in the shower and most of them then we were all men and some men had a 83 desire, and they put a woman undressed, completely naked and she would going and maneuver the water to make the water, to turn on the water. And there I was afraid. I was alive but some people were still in the -- men have a desire for a woman. You could see in the part, and have a desire and they would come in with a raincoat and came in with a stick and right, smacking the people on the part, and it was painful and some of them died. Some of them pulled them out dead. Until they found out this the Jewish man was the leader. Some of them not coming to work they kill about 155 people that I remember. They thought this was none.

Q: Did you see this?

A: I saw it. I was there. Took a man and German man walked over and knocked him right over the part and passed out. And some of them, you know, come back to the bleeding again, and some of this -- then they start playing around with the water, hot water, cold water, and hot water, that this working camp. And it is a distinct -- and I had another experience. In the same camp was mixed. They brought other people to work there, Jewish people too, not too many and there came a -- police came from the I don't know exactly. He was from Hungary or something. He came 84 in later and he somehow had brought in a cross, you know, and people were sleeping. Before this barrack was made out of wood, dig out a ditch, like this side come down like this, and was ground and put the -- we didn't have straw. Didn't have a pillow and gave us a blanket to wrap up, blanket with straw, and this was our pillows. And this police was, of course -- a mahogany cross -- and it was this size with Jewish and fancy with a chain, and he used to tell me story from the bible and he was a very learned person. We talked about the Jewish religion Jewish and Christian religion. Somehow at this time we are suffering,

we all recall it was no different. I think, I think, the make is different but we all the same people. And then he said to me and this barrack this man that was involved with the for the work. He said that we should work three shifts. We should work eight hours and constantly working over there, day or night and sometimes in the day shift and sometimes in the middle shift, and sometimes I was in the night shift and the work after the job, and one -- it was a Sunday this time -- and I came from the night shift, come in the day shift, you know, to switch around. And I was another time I used to go away he said to me always, he called me Israel will you put this 85 away? And I dug out with my hand a little hole and I keep this tied together and put it in a little straw until -- it was my -- I didn't care. Respect was having. Didn't bother me. He was with us maybe a month or two months. They were switching around people from the barracks.

My brother and father was there too in the barrack, and then they took my father to a different barrack and then they try to switch around barracks, together but the priest used to hide. It was a Sunday. I came from the day shift to start working for night and from day shift and we had to switch around shifts, but anyway, he put on the cross and there used to be a gentile people and make a mess for the gentile people and he was going to the -- he was going to the I said the ditch but we never -- it was snowing outside. It was like cold. We were there. It was raining and wet snow and it was really snowing, and we walked out with this. I could hear scream and halt, halt, halt, because he was Close, but I didn't -- stop, stop, stop. Anyway, we heard scream and we hear shooting and, of course, there was a little window to look out and we keep going to the ditch to the window. There was this priest and the Germans and the soldiers around the camp, and there was the like they were 86 watching like in a prison and they told him to stop, stop. And going out for the soldiers they could go in the camp for a second. There were doors. They could open form them. For us they couldn't. And they walked in and he said he said, he made a noise. It was so quiet this time. It was snowing and they dropped him and they put him right away from the rifle and took him in the headquarters.

Maybe a half hour later they brought him back to the camp and they said to the -- and brought up a chair and which is go outside to put him in the chair. And it was snowing and cold outside and some of them came from work. I just came from work. I was wet and tired. Even I did my work not so bad but come back from working to the barracks you get wet, you don't get an umbrella. Everybody had to go out and everybody have to go out. There was people in this camp and one of the Germans put a chair and stand on the chair. I'm going to show you what Gods can do for you, and put the priest in the chair. And everybody had to go by and spit on him and then one of the Germans took this, this cross, opened up his mouth and turned it around and keeps -- everybody, everyone to go one turn. I made second turn. The man was already half dead and the first time I went by, "Hi" to me 87 because I was think it was a miracle. I didn't know the Germans were so how come? They took the cross in his mouth and put it in his mouth and even bleeding to death, you know, and then one, the Germans there was what is going to happen to you? You believe in this God? You Jews are nothing. We are not people at all. Every -- there was not too many and we -- this, this what you can expect.

And we saw this and a lot of Jews coming from their shift and still working and we had a feeling we would never survive. They do it even not to Jewish people. This is an

experience I had. I had another experience my brother, rest in peace. I was going with the coals and they choose my brother to take the canister and go to the kitchen to bring the soup for the group that were working. And there was a tall man. He was a tall man. My brother was compared to the men, he was not so tall. We would not survive if we were little bit. He was shorter than the other guy and this guy was maybe 6'2" and my brother was 5'8" and lucky because this was survival, because we were not too little. And he went out to get the soup for the men to eat, and it was snowing and the weather was damp and wet and there was tracks going in from the trains where they were working. I -- it's hard to make a picture, what was going on. 88 Unbelievable things. Barracks with machine and all kind of machinery was standing there, and you had to go to a factory.

There was building with a big thing, and my brother went to the kitchen like it and I was there walking around, not too far away, because there was the oven, the wood to put in the for soldiers, because they were guarding them, and I saw my brother going. I was happy he got -- at least he have an easier job then. I was working hard too. The coals were so heavy I thought I'd die. I couldn't pick it up sometimes. I was afraid not enough coals, afraid not enough coal, and a few times the Germans said there was what you are taking and smack a kick and all this stuff. They were not so gentle to me. I got beat up more than one time. I took it, with somebody on your back all the time. And my brother walked over to the -- not to too far away from the place that have to bring the soup. It was a canister and it was wintertime and it was snowing. It was wet and this can slided, and he was short and it slide right on him, and the can kicked him over. And he fall down and this on up the gate and this soup spill on the ground. This the this German and my father was not run over to me, got this metal. This pipe, it was maybe about six, seven foot long and they gave it 89 right on my brother on the back one time. The second time he turned away, only he collapsed. He was laying there and they said you it was not his fault. He stepped in the truck rail from the truck and he fall down. And of course, I was there and the people and they run over to him, and I drop my sack of coals and my father, father said my brother's dead, he's dead. I feel bad about him because I was lucky. And he comes up, blood from the mouth, and we thought he was dying. He finished. But he survive and my father try to pick him up. And these Germans, what are you doing? Here, I said. I am taking the coal and this my father and brother. But there was other German, so it's okay. They made another group to pick up the soup because there was enough -- not soup. It was water, and my father and I couldn't stay there, and I see my brother start talking and I see he was going to be okay. And they wiping off the blood and he made it. And he had to make believe he was walking, and they came back, go back to the camp. I wasn't going back to the camp, of course. I went in the barrack so I couldn't -- we didn't know what happened to him. This Dr. there time was physician for the camp, and my father was -- I was mentioning that he had a cyst on his foot, and 90 he operated on him. And it was in the camp, sort of like a first aid, but I want to -- my brother was not anymore him. He was really weak but he had to fight and somehow he was going to come to -- it's going to come to a head. We saw the airplanes and the whole thing going on and we felt make we have a chance. Who knows?

This was going on for quite a while but when I was walking, making the coals, I was something to tell. You have to hear this. There was a wagon, a train standing outside with

-- the guards were there. A and German came in again from the other camp, you know, and he was a big man. He was a he all of sudden came. We found out he came from Auschwitz and he was going to be in charge of soldiers, not over us. And he came in and said he didn't make the this Bergman moved around, you know.

And who is this, explained him over the face and the men from the also German a little higher from him came out, and there was a fight and beat up this Jew, he work for me. Anyway, they settle with each other and this German and the to make the fire.

It got his own no soldiers there. I came in one time to make the fire on the stove

did I know who he was? Stillin___if | have with -- he told me if I was in Auschwitz, you wouldn't 91 be alive. And he start doing what he did in Auschwitz. He told me the way they was burning the people. He was not it took. Mentioning one time and show it to me and they put the people in there and put them on fire and he had a satisfaction. And one was working, not a murderer. You could see on his face. Maybe he was wounded or something in Auschwitz and the Auschwitz looked like it was liquidated. It was before they put him in our camp and when I was -- I was to make warm for him. One time he said I should take his plate and it wash out and cook him some soup. it was like a soup the soldiers had. I go outside. There was a train. I took this sand and wiped it out in this bucket. I made it look like a mirror and I came back.

And he said, how come this so clean? I said -- I told him the way I did it. I took the sand and washed it out. I put the soup in. He told me what to do. Put in a cup of water and I did what he said and I start putting fire in his -- he and we start cooking. Putting the fire in this oven and we start cooking. We start cooking it has to boil. Where is your can?

I had a can always on to my -- I had a spoon. He said to me, take a little bit first. 1 should eat of -- its hot. First eat and I almost burned my tongue and 92 I took it in the mouth and he said know it's safe, like I didn't put in any poison or something. Meanwhile, I bought maybe three or four pots of the soup and he didn't want me to be there when he was eating. And I came out and later on I came in washed the thing and I didn't see him. I take off my little hat that I had and that's when any time I used to go to the bath and take off my jacket. When I had my uniform and put it by the oven andifIhada_ they would die. But one day a man got crazy. Also from the camp and he worked in this train and started crying about -- the toot, toot, toot and one German soldiers asked, where you going? He was going to Budapest. He was from -- he was going to Budapest and see his wife and child. And somehow he went into him the soldiers were the big they have rapport with him that everything was going on, and he try to escape and he was in charge, the guard. Then the soldiers walked in and I was not there, and he looked like he and I was in there and he came out and to me I should go to back.

Maybe he got something against. He think I did something wrong. There was a big kettle pot twice as big as this table, heavy. Fill with water effort. There was a pump where the train, and where the train is filled up with 93 the water. I could hardly take it up. He said to me you I don't want to say you dirty dog. Take the kettle and put it on the fire, and he force me to sit close and blow it. I took off my shirt so the water would cook fast. Realized the man outside. That I -- for a second I didn't know what they -- and I hear this man in the train. I thought he worked there. I didn't know he was crazy. The water was boiling, really cooking. He said I should take it off from the oven. He pushed

me away and strong like a lion and put took some rags and he took some rags there, was putting the boot and took the water and put it on the ground and he said to me if you want to help no, I shouldn't help. He strong like a dog and he open the door, hold the door open, hold the little door open and he shove the man away about 10 feet, away from me, and the man was sitting in the train, toot, toot, toot, screaming. I go to Budapest. I realize he was not normal and he took this hot kettle and he walked over to him so polite and said to him my friend, my brother, where were you going? And the man said, I'm going to Budapest and to my family, and I will help you, and put up the kettle and raised it up like a helmet and right over the head and the water right over the head and spilt it. The 94 water was still rolling around and he had very little clothes on anyway and the clothes came off of him, of his skin and he got red like a fire, and he was in pain. He was running. He didn't know where he was running and screaming and

have and he was and there was also the was a place where the people get hurt on the job. There was a Jewish doctor, forget his name, but he used to be a and he said he was running there, and he collapsed and you know, he put him in this little and the doctor couldn't do nothing. The doctor got out but when I came back hours later to put in the coals for the doctor also, because he was there and I saw blood on the rail, window and scrape from the nail and the fingernails were hanging on the wood. He died from pain. It was what I saw they did to the man. He wanted to go to Budapest.

Q: Israel, we only have a few more minutes. Can you describe liberation? I know you were on a death march.

A: Right when the camp was going to be liquidated they said we have to go back to Dachau.

Some people still remain in the camp but people who still capable to go, you know. They said they going to treat us, to switch us around with Sweden and__ take. German told 95 stories. from the into Dachau took maybe but a day, and my brother was very sick already and he was beaten up, and stomach and bleeding from his mouth.

He held on and when we came to Dachau -- I had some wooden shoes and I couldn't make it in the snow. My knees start getting numb and we came in the Dachau I saw the chimney. Lots people there, thousands of people, trains and all this and some people remain like in a race. And we go in the group. We were talking about we stay that overnight, but we are in the group. We stay overnight and the morning I lay down on the

the place and I couldn't see nothing. I said to my father, I can't walk anymore. I can't move my knee and my father said to me if you can't walk they're are going to shoot you. That's what they are doing to the people. And somehow I fall asleep. And my brother was sick and father was also not so from working, you know, and he was a and again, but again there was a raid and the Americans bomb again, a raid and the Americans were bombing -- Munich is not far away from Dachau -- and a bomb came in right not too far away from the camp and I just jumped. I hear a bang. I didn't know and I stand up I said to my father, I move my knee and then in the morning -- it was a little bit in the middle 96 night I could move my knee and in the morning they take it, one, two, we have to go. They tell us have to go and some of them they put in

trains. There was not enough trains. They made us walk. We walked Dachau and walked three days. They gave us a can of fruit and they gave us there was meat in there from the camp, and everybody got a can of some of the food and they came out with a dog and they had the dogs were going on other side of the group and were matching from Dachau. This was after Dachau it was after liberation and I was living there and the mountains we came out there. The people are dying like flies, like a lot of people weren't making it. If you walk a little out of the line the dog will grab you and bites you. You can't escape. I had wooden shoes, wooden shoes and I lost my shoe. I was running barefoot and it was April. I was liberated 2nd of May, one o'clock. But we were walking down and people were dying like flies. We didn't know.

We thought they're going to kill us, and we came anyway. We come into__ we are -- one thing after the war when I was there, we had to stop somewhere and there was a little . A woman came out, a German woman, with a hot-cooked meal and gave to the soldiers. I to drink. It was 97 experience I have a little time. I was liberated I came back to this place. But anyway going to this place they put us in a ditch. They put machine guns and we know, there is finished. They're are going to kill us there. Luckily, there was a raid again and it start snowing. We are there maybe around 2000 people in the city and it was a whole and -- the snow came. The snow was so heavy we couldn't see. We were snowed in. In the morning I came out from the snow and I looked. I couldn't see my father. That's my father. I didn't see him. He was there and my brother and all of you had -- people start coming up and there was one soldier standing on the hill. All the machine guns, everything is going on. He answer. The leader, he said the Germans are going, and he show a little town a half kilometer, white flags hanging over the houses. And we felt something going on. And all thought was burning and machine guns and military going. And anyway, there was a dead horse -- but I can tell stories. People were so hungry they were eating the dead horse. I didn't eat the dead horse. And we were walking into this little town and the Germans were there in the small town and we walked in. And everybody, you go here, and they go there, here, sort of like in the like they have it in the 98 farms, little town. And there was boys in this house and things like this, and the woman was watching the house and sitting. She offer us to -- she don't know -- for us to eat or something. But they were afraid. We were afraid. We didn't know what was going on. We, finally, maybe 20 people in this place where the cows -- around one o'clock we hear people screaming. We go out. I say American -- I saw is a white star. I didn't know what was Russians or what ever and people running in the in to the place. The Americans are throwing disaster. There was a-- people usedtoeat _--. I got a can of and a soldier opened up for me and I eat like I didn't have nothing to eat. And then the Americans came in and, of course, right away they said to remain where we are. And the next day all the people should get out of this place and we go to a place about two kilometers to the barracks where the Germans from the Navy and the soldiers. They it out and you'll the people that were liberated put us over there. And in four days we were leaving. They put in the white flags. A train go by and it opened up the and the men said it was a rabbi , a priest, oh, what did they did to my people? And he felt so bad and he should not shoot, but he felt so 99 bad he took the machine gun and shot the first floor -- and look

what they did to my people? I never forget this moment. It always stay with me and that's why I thank the Americans I am alive, everyone. We went down and this was the end of it. I didn't know what was happening. And we walked in this building and, of course, right away there were soldiers from the doctor and they start checking out the people and soon my brother, they took him right away from us, and right away from us. She said -- we show him the way he acting, and right away he have to go right away in the hospital.

Q: I'm afraid we have to stop.

A: It's all right. I appreciate.

Q: I just thought you might want to give us the name of your horse?

A: Oh, Fox, we called him Fox, the little horse. And then we were liberate and my brother was taken to the hospital, and then they was in the hospital and they tried to cure him but he lost a kidney. And then he had TB in his foot and he couldn't move. And after the liberation there was six years in the hospital. And everybody was already free and I was at this time a young man. I learned my trade and, of course, I was in and I met my wife and got married, and my 100 life started. But I have a long story but we are short on time. I appreciate the opportunity to tell you what I feel.

Q: Thank you?

A: Thank you. Conclusion of interview.