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https://collections.ushmm.org Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection ELIO GRANDI March 3, 2015

Q: This is a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Mr. Elio Grandi, on March 3", 2015, in Springfield, Virginia. Thank you very, very much Mr. Grandi, that you've agreed to meet with me today, and to share some of your experiences during World War II, and to explain a little bit about those circumstances. It's very much appreciated. And I'll start, as I mentioned before, before the interview, I'll start with a lot of questions from before the war, in order for people to get a better sense of what your life was like, what were your young years like, what was the pre-war life like, and a little bit about you. So, Pll start at the very beginning. Can you tell me your name at birth? Was it the same?

A: Cornelio Giacomo Emilio Grandi.

Q: And what -- when were you born? What was the date of your birth?

A: Nove Aprile, mille nove cento venti quattro.

Q: And how were --

A: April 9, 1924.

Q: 1924. And -- there is a noise just -- that just started. Hang on. [break] Okay, now there's no noise, and we know your name was quite long at birth, a very long one.

And then you -- your date was April 9", 1924?

A: Correct. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande , March 3, 2015

Q: Where were you born?

A: In the city of Boston.

Q: Of Boston?

A: Yes.

Q: In Massachusetts?

A: Massachusetts, Massachusetts. Massachusetts General hos -- Hospital.

Q: Really?

A: And I got a--a story to tell about it.

Q: Tell me about it.

A: It is now around my oct -- doctor, who is the son of my godfather.

Q: Really?

A: He's the manager -- managing doctor at Massachusetts General.

Q: Had your family been in the Boston area for a long time, when you were born?

A: No.

Q: Tell me about that. When had they come to the United States?

A: My father came for the second time, on the 19" of the month, I don't know the day, I know the year.

Q: What was the year?

A: Nine -- 1919, "19, one-nine. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande deg March 3, 2015

Q: So it was 1919 when he came.

A: Right.

Q: Five years before you were born.

A: Right.

Q: Okay.

A: Nine years after my -- my birth, he sent the family to Italy, that he lost 2,000 dol -- dollars, when the banks closed.

Q: Oh, you mean, after the -- the crash?

A: After the cra -- cra --

Q: After the -- af -- uh-huh.

A: So he decided to return to Italy, where we were -- he was from.

Q: Okay. We'Il talk about that, but now I still want to talk a little bit about Boston.

Where did you grow up in Boston? What were your early -- where were your early years spent? In what --

A: I--I was in bo -- Boston, until I was fi -- 10 years old.

Q: So, did you grow up in the North End?

A: Yes, Commonwealth Ave.

Q: Oh, you grew up on Commonwealth Avenue? ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande deg March 3, 2015

A: Yes, but I don't remember nothing. The only thing I remember is what my mother told me, that I had pneumonia twice in 10 years. And that's the only thi -- thing I remember.

Q: Did you have brothers and sisters?

A: A twin brother, a sister, and an older bro-brother.

Q: What was your twin brother's name?

A: Sil-Silvio.

Q: Silvio.

A: And the reason he had such a qu-queer name for an Italian fellow, was because the consul of Italy, in New York, in wa -- in Boston --

Q: In Boston.

A: -- was a friend of my -- my father. And he kept saying that my mother was expecting twins. And one day my father told him, okay, if they're twins, Ill name the second one Silvio. Are you happy? He says, yes. The second one Silvio. So my brother carried that name to his death.

Q: And -- and that was after the consul in -- in Boston. That is -- was Silvio the name of the counsel?

A: Yes, course.

Q: Yeah, yeah. How cute. He was very prescient, that he predicted twins. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

A: That's right.

Q: Yeah.

A: Well, in those days, they went by volume. And there's a picture of my mother, which was a few days, I guess, before the birth.

Q: So she must have --

A: It's enormous.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: Compared to what they -- they -- to what they do to now.

Q: Yeah. So, in your -- were your brother and yourself the second oldest, or were you the youngest? Where in this family of siblings --

A: The one before the youngest.

Q: Okay. So you're --

A: My daughter -- my -- my mother had a -- a daughter, finally.

Q: So thr -- four boy -- three boys and then a girl.

A: Right.

Q: Okay. What was your sister's name?

A: Paola.

Q: Paola.

A: That's because my father's name was Paulo. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande deg March 3, 2015

Q: Paulo.

A: My father was very difficult to get anything from him. If there was ever a plus for him, he was all o-over you. But unless there was something for him to gain, it was imma -- immaterial.

Q: Also with his children?

A: With the world.

Q: Oh. That must have been quite difficult for you.

A: Well, he wasn't the easiest father to -- to live with.

Q: What did he do in Boston, what was his work?

A: He sold Italian -- what do you eat?

Q: Foods?

A: Food.

Q: Yeah?

A: Food were lar-largest Italian sales company.

Q: So imported food from Italy, he would sell?

A: Most -- mostly.

Q: And -- and can you describe a little bit about your home on Commonwealth Avenue, or do you have any memories of it?

A: No memory. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande deg March 3, 2015

Q: No memory. At home, even in Boston, what language did you speak?

A: I don't know. I don't remember.

Q: Okay.

A: But I--I- I assume Italian.

Q: Okay.

A: But I don't know.

Q: Was it your first language, by the way, Italian?

A: Oh yes, I--

Q: Okay.

A: Don't forget, I was six, seven, eight, nine and 10 years old.

Q: Yeah.

A: At 10 you don't get on -- on a pedestal, and start speaking a foreign language, or any language.

Q: Did you go to schools? Did you start school in Boston?

A: I don't know, I don't -- I don't remember.

Q: Okay, okay. Tell me a little bit about your -- hang on a minute. [break] What was your oldest brother's name?

A: Gastoni(ph).

Q: Gastoni(ph)? ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

A: Gaston(ph).

Q: Gaston(ph).

A: I don't know how he got his name, but I think it was from some prominent figure in the newspapers at the time when, actually, he was born during the first World War.

Q: Oh, really?

A: Cause he was born in 1917.

Q: In Italy?

A: In-- yes, in Padua.

Q: So, when your father came to the United States, did he come with a wife and a little baby, and that was it?

A: No, he came alone. For the second trip -- he came the first trip, there's no record of his coming. It was chur -- because he was a stowaway.

Q: He was a stowaway.

A: He wa -- he was a stowaway to come to New York --

Q: I see.

A: --and made his way to Boston. I don't know why, but somebody had a friend that was -- and he went to work for this firm of Italian [indecipherable] Italian foo- foods. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: Mortadella.

Q: Mortadella?

A: Yeah.

Q: You mean making mortadella? Making the food?

A: I don't know whether he made it, or not, but Italian-American in Boston ate a lot of -- of Italian food.

Q: Yeah.

A: Among which is mor-mortadella.

Q: Yeah.

A: Which I like tremendously.

Q: Me too. Me too. Tell me a little bit about your mother. What kind of a person was she?

A: Remis -- remissive.

Q: What do you mean by that?

A: Anybody could say what they wanted about what they believed, and she would say yes. She had no opinion of her ow-own. She was a wonderful housekeeper.

Q: Was she an influence on you?

A: Not directly. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

Q: I see. Was your father an influence on you?

A: In the wrong way.

Q: Oh. Uh-huh. How would you describe that?

A: Oh, he wasn't suppor-supportive. He wa -- the books and the [indecipherable] of must read books, a hundred volumes. Never read the first page --

Q: Really?

A: -- on any one. He just bought them to show, because he had people come for dinner at the house, and they had to go by where the store -- where all the books were.

Q: Was he an educated man?

A: Well, he had a -- a degree of -- that you re -- you recall -- what is it when --I can't think of the word.

Q: He had a degree in -- did it -- was it higher education? A degree in higher -- what he -- did he go to college or university?

A: No, he went to high -- to a high school, where he learned how to be a bookkeeper.

Q: I see. A vocational type of school.

A: Right.

Q: Okay. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande (r) March 3, 2015

A: But he did have that degree, so he could -- could have been a keeper.

Q: A bookkeeper, yes.

A: A bookkeeper.

Q: Yes.

A: Technically. But --

Q: But -- but then, he didn't.

A: He -- he never -- he never practice.

Q: Okay. So, if I understand correctly, you don't really have many memories of Boston at all, as a child.

A: The answer is yes.

Q: Oh, you do?

A: I do not.

Q: Oh, yes, you do not have memories, yes. So, can you tell me about what some of your earliest memories are? They must be back in Italy.

A: The earliest memory is the day I left New York, on board an Italian ship with my mother and my older brother, my sister, and my twi-- twin brother. And I was on the ship, looking down, and I saw my father waving goodbye. And I had a play camera that I was playing with. And I made believe that I took a picture of my ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015 father, and I clicked the thing, and off came the sna-snake, which was the game of the --

Q: Of the camera?

A: -- camera that I had. So my best toy fell in the water. And my father was waving goodbye. And I remember distinctly what I said to myself.

Q: What was that?

A: I'll be goddamned if I don't come back, as soon as I can.

Q: Can you repeat that for me?

A: I can. I said, I'll be an es -- an s.o.b. if | can't come back by the -- as soon as I can.

Q: I don't understand, I must say. You were happy that -- if you could -- if you would be able to come back, or happy if you would never have to come back?

A: No, ha -- that I was gonna find a wa -- way to come back as soon as I could.

Q: I see.

A: It was 20 -- 17 years.

Q: That's a long time. That's a long time.

A: And I live in Rome throughout that per-period.

Q: Okay, so now I'll come to this. Did your father stay in the United States? ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande 6 March 3, 2015

A: He ha-had things to clear up before coming back to Italy. But two years later, he came back.

Q: And when you returned to Italy, did you go back to Padua, or was it to Rome?

A: That's another story.

Q: Okay, tell me about that story.

A: There's a town where my father was born. It's called Este, spelled e-s-t-e.

Q: Okay.

A: It's a famous place, because in the renaissance period, there was a qu-queen who's part of her history.

Q: Wa -- a queen who was part of history?

A: A part -- a queen whose hist-his -- whose history involved hi-- Este.

Q: I see.

A: Because a castle of Este was in very good shape.

Q: Where -- what -- where in Italy was this town?

A: Not far from Padua.

Q: I see.

A: Which is [indecipherable] town, it's the -- the head town --

Q: Okay.

A: -- of one of the se-sections. I--I ve -- ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande a March 3, 2015

Q: So-

A: Lam having a hard ti-time --

Q: Talking?

A: -- pronoun -- pronouncing the w -- the words.

Q: That's okay. Do you want to stop a little bit?

A: Yes.

Q: Sure, we'll stop. [break] So you remembered -- we were talking about where in Italy your family returned to.

A: Este.

Q: Este.

A: Which is in the province of Padua.

Q: Right.

A: Which is a main city because of its university.

Q: And what was your life like in Este? Did you go to school there, did you have a larger family from your father's side, who looked after you?

A: We were given to be housed with my father's stepmother.

Q: Okay.

A: My grandfather on the father's -- my fa -- father's si-side was unique, because he had 20 --I forget how many -- 30 children, with two wives. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

Q: Oh.

A: The second wife was his -- his maid. His first wife was -- had 11 children -- children, and his second wife had 13.

Q: Oh my goodness.

A: He was a very reli-religious per-person.

Q: Did you know him?

A: No, he died long before I was born.

Q: Okay.

A: But I told you this st-story, because my grandmother -- my step-grandmother, was on the list of the poor people of Este, which was on the list of the poor cities of Padua.

Q: Oh, I see.

A: And she was given a chore to look after my older brother, my twin brother, myself, and my daughter -- my si-sister, who we -- who went back to United States.

Q: Oh, she went back?

A: Yeah, to live with my father for -- for the two ye-years.

Q: Where he stayed before coming back, yes.

A: Before. When he came back, we moved to Rome, almost on the very same day, I don't re-remember E-Este with my fa-father in it. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande .

March 3, 2015

Q: But you do remember Rome?

A: Of course.

Q: Okay.

A: I lived there 18 years.

Q: Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. So, how old were you when you ended up in Rome, when you moved there with your father?

A: Iwas 11 and a ha-- 12 year -- 12 years old.

Q: So this was 1936?

A: No.

Q: Thirty-five?

A: Thirty -- 19 was thirty -- deg33, how --

Q: Oh, at 1933, you would have been nine years old. Because if you were born in 1924, 30 -- 1933 would have made it nine year -- you would have been nine years old.

A: So I-- when I went to Rome, it was -- I was -- I was either 11 or thir -- 13.

Anyhow, two years after my father came back from re -- from Boston, I was living in Rome.

Q: Had Mussolini already come to power?

A: Yes. He was in power 1920 -- "23, "24. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande deg March 3, 2015

Q: Okay. And did your father or mother -- I mean, were they -- did they have any kind of political leanings? Did they have any kind of political views?

A: My mother didn't. My father was a relatively good fascist.

Q: Really?

A: He -- but he used it in business. He -- I have pictures of my father -- I have a picture with my father following Mussolini in Naples.

Q: Really?

A: Yeah.

Q: Excuse me. So your father, you have a photo of him following Mussolini in Naples?

A: Right.

Q: And -- and --

A: And -- and he acted as a -- a -- a-- what is it when one -- stop it.

Q: Sure. [break] Okay.

A: He acted as a reporter.

Q: Your father acted as a reporter?

A: For the Italian newspaper ha -- bo -- Boston.

Q: Ha -- what's it called?

A: The newspaper [indecipherable] ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

Q: Of Boston?

A: No, of -- yes.

Q: Oh, so he would write articles about Mussolini and send them back to Boston, to be printed there, in the Italian newspaper?

A: No, he would write articles about -- he was -- would write articles on one -- what would happen in Italy, yeah. This was a disaster in Naples --

Q: Okay.

A: -- when Mussolini was going. So he was following Mussolini. You could see the picture. I have the picture. I can show it.

Q: Okay, later, when we're finished with the interview.

A: Right.

Q: Okay.

A: The -- he would send the picture of himself and Mussolini to the -- to the company.

Q: Where he worked.

A: The -- the newspaper, the Italian newspaper --

Q: Okay.

A: -- of

Q: Of Boston? ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande a March 3, 2015

A: Boston.

Q: I see.

A: [indecipherable] my godfather was a -- a contrib -- a contributor to the newspaper. So I assume that he would send it to his buddy, who would put it in -- in the paper, so that when he got back from his trips to Ital-Italy, he could prove that he was with mu-mu-mu -- that -- that's the ki-kind of person he -- you -- you couldn't change him.

Q: So it sounds like you're saying he was an opportunist.

A: Yes.

Q: In the -- he may not have been a real believer, but he too -- but he followed along because it was beneficial.

A: Right, right.

Q: As you -- I have a couple of questions I want to make sure I don't forget.

Number one, when you were born in Boston, does that mean you had una-- U.S.

citizenship? When you -- from -- from birth?

A: Up to a point, yes. But I-- I would have to research and find out what the Italian attitude towards dual citizenship was, because he had changed several times, both in Italy as well as --

Q: The United States. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

A: -- the United State -- States.

Q: Yeah.

A: Today you say yes, definitely, one who is born of Italian parents, no matter where he was born. He can be born on the -- the moon. There's one who's ever about to be, in birth, he never wo -- well, citizenship is --

Q: Automatically granted?

A: Right.

Q: Okay. Okay. So you knew you were definitely an Italian citizen.

A: Again, we were re-register at nine -- 10, 11 year -- years.

Q: Okay. I just wanted to understand that.

A: Yeah.

Q: And the second question was a bigger question, and that is, it sounds that your parents never -- you -- they were -- you were never close to them, for different reasons. Is that true?

A: Tragically, yes.

Q: So who was the biggest influence in your young life? Who would you say you -- you were close to, of those who were surrounding you?

A: Nobody.

Q: So you're very lonely. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande 8 March 3, 2015

A: [had a very close childhood friend that became my only real attachment to any one per-person, was Johnny Marzano(ph).

Q: Johnny Marzano(ph)?

A: Right. And he died three months ago.

Q: Oh, what a loss.

A: I-- but he was my -- I have a picture of him.

Q: And what about your twin brother?

A: We never were close.

Q: I see.

A: He had his own life. He married at 19, because of his son.

Q: So he had a baby, and he married the mother.

A: Right.

Q: As -- as things progressed -- I'm talking about the late 1930s, and so on, you were -- still were not a boy any more, but a teenager, and not an adult yet. Were you noticing what life was like in Italy? You know, political life, and what was going on?

A: Not at all.

Q: What were you interested in in those days? ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

A: Girls. Strictly, and almost only. There was untouchable on the part of your parents, and the only thing touchable on the part of the young children, or young -- youngsters, that you -- you were part of the life. Because I don't remember having any friends outside of schoolma -- mates, of some sort or an-another. I remember for a short period, I had a budding friendship with the son of a minister.

Q: Oh, really? A Protestant minister?

A: No, a minis -- a minister --

Q: In government.

A: --in government.

Q: But I don't know, it lasted, I'd say three months, six month -- si-six mo-month.

For me, it was touching heaven with my hand, for hi-him it was no big deal.

Probably th-thought I was a --a jerk.

Q: Was it because you came from different social classes?

A: Mostly. He had a chau-chauffeur come and pick -- pick him -- pick him up from school. He was a --a very brief per-period of high school, where my father went overboard, and spent the money to send my twin brother and myself to private school.

Q: Oh. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande 8 March 3, 2015

A: That's how I became -- became friendly with this kid. When I quit because my father didn't want -- didn't have the money to pay for private college, that was the end of -- of the rel -- relation --

Q: Relationship. How did your father support the family in-- when you were in Rome?

A: He became one of the best, if not the very best, salesman for the soap manufacturing comp-company of mila -- Milan.

Q: Milan, yeah? Uh-huh. So, was -- were the finances then reconstituted? You said he had lost 2,000 dollars during the crash.

A: Oh well, he -- he never made that money back. Think of what happened to the United States in August and octo -- November, Octo-October of last ye-year.

Q: Of 1929, yeah.

A: Yeah, if you lost money, that's it.

Q: Yeah, but I meant by reconstituted in the sense that, were you -- were you comfortable, were you prone --

A: Oh yes.

Q: Okay.

A: He sold commercially, the best soap in Italy, to stores, and he made quite a--a sub-substantial commission. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande *deg March 3, 2015

Q: Tell me this then, what -- i-in your school -- schooling, whether it was in private school, or in public school, did you ever meet any Jewish kids?

A: If I did, I wasn't aware.

Q: Okay. Did you know anything about Jews?

A: Only that my mother's mother was a Jew.

Q: Oh really?

A: Yeah.

Q: Your grandmother.

A: My -- my gra -- the grandmother that I saw maybe -- maybe four or five times in my lifetime.

Q: Was your mother's family also from Este?

A: No, Padua.

Q: Ah, they were from Padua itself.

A: Right. Her father was a government employ -- a local government employee. I met him only once. He was in bed. And I went to see him at home, cause he was si- sick. I never saw him again, because he died soon after.

Q: Do you remember -- do you remember 1939, when World War II broke out, when Germany attacked Poland?

A: No. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

Q: No. It didn't affect Italy, did it?

A: Not to the extent that it would affect me.

Q: Okay. So life went on pretty normally? It didn't change much when -- even though the war started?

A: It didn't for me.

Q: Okay. Did it in -- for other people in Italy?

A: Probably. The people they lived close to Padua had to move south when the war came -- come -- came close to Padua.

Q: When did the war actually come closer to Padua, come close to Italy? When did -- when did Italy feel that there's a war on?

A: Only the -- Italy felt the war -- the war -- the -- the day it started. I didn't feel it, because I was a --a kid. Nobody told me what politics was. I had no concept -- concept that I should be aware what's going on, or --

Q: Did your older brother, what was his name? Goos -- Gaston(ph)?

A: Gaston(ph).

Q: Did your older brother, what was he -- he was old enough to be military age, and

A: He was in -- in the mili-military, but he was a father of two children, so he -- they dispe-spensed wi-with him. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande *8 March 3, 2015

Q: So in other words, they let him go?

A: Yeah.

Q: And -- and of course, Silvio and yourself are the same age, and you're like 15 years old, 15 and a half when World War II starts?

A: Right.

Q: What were those early war years like? Did you continue going to school?

A: I did.

Q: And Silvio?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: He -- he went to a private school because there was no other school for him to go to. He wanted to become like my -- like my twi--- my father, a bookkeeper.

Q: I see.

A: Cause that's where the money wa-was.

Q: What about yourself? Did you know what you wanted to do?

A: No. I wanted to come to America, that was my goal.

Q: Did other people in your family feel like going back to America, or were you the one who really wanted it? ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

A: I--I'm the o-only one. I--I was a -- an influence on my twin brother, who was lucky enough to meet a Jewish American, who was touring Rome. And he did him a--a favor, by interpreting for him when he was buying an art piece in Rome. And the man, to thank him, said, if you ever get to Boston, let me know. So thank you very, very much for -- for what you -- you did for me and my wi-wife.

Q: And that --

A: He get the card, wrote him when he decided he was going to come to the United States. The man sent him the money to come to the United States. And he was Jewish.

Q: Wow. Was this after the war?

A: Pardon?

Q: Was this after the war?

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. Okay, okay. So that's how you -- and your -- first your brother came back, and then you came back?

A: Right.

Q: Okay. So, let's stay with the war a little bit. Tell me how things progressed and developed for you during the war.

A: I sort of have to -- to admit that I have no recollection how the war year -- years. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

Q: Well, I thought that you had -- would -- well, you had been drafted, is that correct?

A: I--I'm talking about the first World War.

Q: Oh, I'm talking about the second World War.

A: Oh no, the sec -- second World War.

Q: Yeah, the second World War.

A: When I was draft --

Q: Were you drafted in the second World War?

A: Yeah. Yes.

Q: How did that happen? Tell me about that experience.

A: Well, in 19 -- age 19, I wa -- I wa-was drafted by law.

Q: Okay.

A: I was sent to Milan fr-from Rome.

Q: Okay.

A: Checked in with a -- with the ca -- company of Versagleri.

Q: Of what?

A: Versagleri, v-e-r --

Q: Versagleri?

A: Yeah, v-e-r -- ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: -- s-a-g-l-e-r-i.

Q: And what are the Versagleri?

A: It's a special arm of the infantry.

Q: Okay.

A: They call it fast infan-infantry.

Q: Okay.

A: My father was a Versagleri in the first World --

Q: War.

A: And he wanted me to become a Versagleri.

Q: I see. And --

A: So he came to the draft board with me and my twin brother, and he was dressed in high uniform, as a major.

Q: Was he a major?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: So he was right b-by -- by me, when the sergeant was enli-enlisting me, says, you have a right, says, because you were born in Bos-Bo-Bos-Boston. My father said, give up the -- the right. Versagleri. I want the vers -- vers -- ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande % March 3, 2015

Q: So in other words, you had the right not to be drafted, or not to be fighting, because you were born in Boston?

A: Correct.

Q: But your father said no, you should be drafted, and you should go to the Versagleri.

A: And he was a major in full uniform.

Q: Yeah. So what was that sergeant going to do, of course.

A: So that's why I--I spent three months as a s -- as a soldier.

Q: Okay. What happened during that time?

A: I was in [indecipherable] and I was supposed to be in the infantry, but I wasn't.

I was really doing for ser-service to protect two factories. One a factory, telephones, and the other one, I don't know. But there was a -- a group of less than 50 soldiers that took over a house, and we sa-sat there guarding these two co-companies. The eighth of septem -- septem --

Q: Of September, mm-hm.

A: The telephone -- the -- the radio is talking [indecipherable] the war is ended, go home.

Q: The eighth of September?

A: Yes, 19 -- 19 -- ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande 8 March 3, 2015

Q: Forty-three?

A: For -- forty -- I thi--I think it was for -- deg43, or for -- 40 --I-- I would ha -- have to lo-look it -- look it --

Q: Okay.

A: The minute we heard that -- that, the other 50 soldiers disappeared -- disappear --

Q: There was --

A: I was the only one left with the lieutenant and a ser-sergeant.

Q: Hang on. [break] Okay. So -- but this is not the end of the war. If it's 1943, it's not --

A: For Italy it was.

Q: Really?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay, all right.

A: For Italy it was, and I was left with a musket --

Q: Okay.

A: -- that I was given when I enlisted.

Q: Okay.

A: And I went and told the lieutenant in charge, this is my rifle. I'm leaving. Where you going? I'm going to Rome, get my documents to enli-enlist in -- at Padua ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015 University. Goodbye. He says, Grandi, come back here. Goodbye. Come back.

You will regret what you're doing. I said goodbye from a -- from a-- a-- a--a--a di- di-distance.

Q: Okay.

A: I spent the next week and a half, I went from Milan -- no, we weren't in Milan, we were in Treiso.

Q: Okay.

A: Anyhow, I [indecipherable] time in my po-pocket. I went from outside Milan, to Milan, to take a tr-train to Rome. Got to Rome, got my books, got the papers from the s -- college.

Q: School, mm-hm.

A: Took a train back to Italy.

Q: To Padua.

A: To -- to Padua. By the way, I went to Padua because my father had mo -- moved to a famous villa, because his [indecipherable] a famous book.

Q: He had moved there why? Because -- to a villa in Padua?

A: Not in pa-- pa--- in a town.

Q: Another town. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande 8 March 3, 2015

A: Not far -- not far fro-from -- because my father had moved, and he was never there, because he got -- he had gotten the area in Padua and other parts out of [indecipherable] region, as a territory, to sell soap. So, he was selling soap, so -- so

Q: And this was a place for him to stay, to be while he was selling soap in that area.

A: Well, he moved the fa -- the family.

Q: He moved the family there, so that became home.

A: It became home.

Q: Ah, okay.

A: But temporary.

Q: Got it, mm-hm.

A: Because he was in Mila-Milan, looking for -- for a home.

Q: Got it.

A: And he did find it.

Q: Okay.

A: Because I visited him when I came to -- by way of Padua, s-spent the day wi- with my mo --

Q: Mother?

A: With my mother. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande 6 March 3, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: I never saw my -- my father while I wa -- wa -- was --

Q: At that house?

A: I thi--I-a space of ti-time tha-that I don't remember --

Q: Okay.

A: -- where I was, was Ars-Arsiero.

Q: Arsiero.

A: A-r-s-i-e-r-o, ar -- ar --

Q: Siero. So, did you go to university, did you enroll at university in Padua?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. And what were you going to study?

A: [indecipherable]

Q: Philosophy and what else?

A: Letters.

Q: Letters?

A: Yes.

Q: So, linguistics?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay, okay. https://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

A: Which I d--I did. I went back, but I can't remember what I did as --

Q: Arsiero?

A: [know why my mother was scared to death that the German would find ou-out that I was there.

Q: So, had it been illegal for you to leave your post? Was that the -- the reality?

A: No, it -- the post in Mil-Milan, that was legal.

Q: Okay. So then, why was she scared that the Germans would find you?

A: Cause she was dumb. She was young.

Q: She was frightened. She was frightened.

A: Frightened.

Q: Yeah.

A: The worst came when they moved [indecipherable] Milan.

Q: Okay.

A: And I escaped.

Q: You escaped from where?

A: From where I wa -- it's a long sto-story. If you want, I can tell it.

Q: Well, does it have to do with the war?

A: Yes.

Q: Then I want to hear. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

A: When I-- why I don't remember meeting my father in Arsiero is because I never met him.

Q: Okay.

A: And I don't remember when I left ars -- Arsiero.

Q: Arsiero.

A: I tried with my twin brother, to go up in the mount -- mountains, and work it out, when the rest of the world would have said the war is ended. But we went, my twin brother and I went up in the mountain, and it lasted three hours, and we came right down.

Q: Okay.

A: It was for us a living --

Q: In the mountains.

A: In the mountains. That's the only thing I remember about ars -- ars --

Q: Arsiero, yeah. But tell me the story that you say has to do with the war, that it sounds like it's a little complicated. What happened?

A: My family, my mo -- mother and father and their daughter moved to Milano. I ha-have it kind of -- I had to [indecipherable] there it comes -- come back.

Q: Okay.

A: Near Arsiero was a town -- ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: -- where the Germans were collecting people, youngsters like myself.

Q: Okay.

A: Not to fight on their si-side.

Q: To fight on their side?

A: Not to.

Q: Not to fight on their side.

A: Just to go -- go to work and dig ditches.

Q: Okay.

A: Do menial jobs.

Q: Okay.

A: And I became a member of one of th-these cr-crew --

Q: Crews. Here I'm looking through your file, and I'm going to repeat a few things.

I'm going to read a few things that are out here. In July deg43, the allies land in Sicily, in July -- early July. In 24" of July, Mussolini is deposed and apprehended. And that's on the 24". On July 23", your family moves from Rome to Arsiero. So, a day before Mussolini is deposed --

A: No relation. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande *deg March 3, 2015

Q: No relation, I understand. And then, on July 29", Otto Skorzeny liberates Mussolini?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. And then you leave -- in June "43, you leave for Milano, to report for military, which you told me about. June and July you're in boot camp at Varese. In August you move to Milano for police duty at Musocco. Is that when you're do -- guarding those two buildings, this police duty in Musocco, Musocco?

A: Musoccale(ph)?

Q: Yeah. And then there's the heaviest bombing in -- of Milano from nearby. And September 8", which is what you se -- you told me, General Badoglio surrenders the country.

A: Yeah.

Q: Who does he surrender it to?

A: General -- what was the name of the general in charge of [indecipherable]? I forget the name.

Q: Is that Badoglio?

A: No, no. Badoglio is a general, the attack general who I had been name -- named" [ president.

Q: So, in other words, he surrenders the company to -- country to the Germans? ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: Not to -- to the Germans, to the Americans.

Q: To the Americans?

A: Yes.

Q: In 1943?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. And then you leave for Musocco for Rome, by way of Varese, always in military attire. And this says you stopped twice, on a 24 hour trip. That is, on September 11", deg43.

A: That was the train --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- the train was stopped, not me.

Q: I see. Okay. And September 21, fo -- 1943, you arrive at Arsiero with one suitcase full of books, and still in uniform.

A: Right.

Q: Okay. And then in October, November, you're inducted into todd and traveled to Androdoccu(ph) in Abruzzo.

A: Right. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande deg March 3, 2015

Q: What is todd, t-o-d-d?

A: That's German for -- the work they do is they dig ho-holes.

Q: I see. Because the word in German, for -- todt --

A: Todd.

Q: -- means death. The word t-o-d-t means death in German, todt.

A: Well --

Q: Okay, maybe --

A: It is the -- the same.

Q: Okay, maybe I'm wrong here. It could be spelled a little differently, but todt, I believe that's what it is.

A: Yeah. It's the name of the organization that works --

Q: To dig these holes. To di--

A: Right.

Q: Okay, to dig trenches?

A: To dig whatever is we -- we went all the way to [indecipherable]

Q: It says, from December deg43 to May deg44, you're working at the Gothic Line in Abruzzo.

A: Right.

Q: Okay. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande 8 March 3, 2015

A: In Abruzzo --

Q: Okay.

A: --is at the height of Rome.

Q: Okay.

A: They were building the -- the line of defe -- of defense.

Q: So there are parts of Italy that are occupied by the allies, the Americans, and other parts that are occupied by the Germans.

A: Right.

Q: Okay, and you were in the part that was occupied by the Germans.

A: Right.

Q: Okay. Okay. So, you're working up until the Gothic Line in Abruzzo, and then in late 1944, it says you leave for Rome to buy supplies for German officers.

A: Yeah, this is almost impossible to believe.

Q: Yeah, tell me about it.

A: I'm working as a ditch digger.

Q: Right.

A: Actually, I never did one digging, because in order to reach the place where we used to --

Q: Dig. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

A: -- dig a hole --

Q: Okay.

A: --we had to go up the mountain. And they'd put us one after the other, 10, with a --a Jerry on the fr-front and a Jerry on the back. I was in the middle.

Q: Okay.

A: I would throw mysel-self to the side, stand still, let them pass. Stay there with my book.

Q: And read?

A: And read. Stay the whole --

Q: Day?

A: -- after -- after-after --

Q: Afternoon?

A: -- wait for the group to come by, and --

Q: Join again?

A: -- and join again.

Q: That was clever. Risky, but clever.

A: I got away.

Q: You got away with it. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

A: I got away. I can remember distinctly what I did. I was being liked by the Germans, because I spoke broken German.

Q: German. Okay.

A: And they used me as an interpreter.

Q: Okay.

A: So one day, a Lieutenant Gorway(ph), he said, we got you to a sp-special mission. Did you say you live in Rome? I say yes. We're -- I-- used to -- to live be- before the -- the -- the war.

Q: Okay. So what did they ask you to do?

A: Can you go to Rome and buy --

Q: Shaving cream?

A: -- shaving cream. I said, sure. He said, you're sure you -- you can come back?

Where would I -- where wou -- would I go?

Q: So, in other words, they sent you to Rome, and -- and were you in like a forced labor battalion? Is that what you were in, that -- that they let you go out of it? Or, why would it have been complicated for you to go to Rome, when you were at Abruzzo, which is so close to it?

A: It was complicated for me to go -- go to Rome. I knew Rome well enough to go and do some shopping, but why I would do shopping for captors? ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande % March 3, 2015

Q: Okay, so it is a question as, they were your captors.

A: Of course.

Q: Got it.

A: I was working for them.

Q: And you were doing it not out of your own free will?

A: No.

Q: I want to establish this. Is this -- this was -- were you forced labor?

A: You can -- yeah, technically, that's what it was.

Q: Okay.

A: Technically, I was forced to do -- I did it on my own advice. The guy asked -- asked me, would you be wi-willing to go to Rome --

Q: Got it.

A: --and do some shopping.

Q: Excuse me, I was talking about before, about digging the ditches. When you were a part of this group, was that something that you volunteered for, or that was forced?

A: No, forced.

Q: It was forced, okay. So you were a forced laborer, and you were going to Rome to do shopping for your captors, is that it? ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

A: Technically, yes.

Q: Okay. All right. That's what I wanted to fi -- that's what I wanted to understand.

So you go to Abruzzo -- you go to Rome to buy these supplies for the officers.

A: And I got a whole bagful.

Q: Of shaving cream?

A: Of things that they -- they wanted. The bag was full with my clothes, as well.

Q: Okay.

A: That is th -- that -- this is un-unbelievable. Unbelie -- the third of July --

Q: Okay.

A: --I finished my sh-shopping.

Q: Third of June.

A: Huh?

Q: You have it as the third of June, you finish your shopping.

A: And I go to where I know my ca -- company is.

Q: Okay.

A: Pm driving on -- on a--

Q: Hitchhiking?

A: Hitchhike.

Q: Okay. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

A: There was a --a landing, a s -- a special landing, where they checked everybody that was going through, on the way north. I got to that point, and I put the rucksack on the ground, cause I were -- I was tired. And I saw a car -- not a car, but a--a--

Q: A truck, a Jeep?

A: A truck. I saw a small truck, which had nobody in it.

Q: Okay.

A: And I dashed to the place where they were showing the -- talking with -- to -- to continue.

Q: So that you could get onto the truck?

A: Right.

Q: Okay.

A: And they say no, we're going north, we're not going south. I said, but I'm not going south. Sorry, can't take you.

Q: Okay.

A: They leave. I turn around, there goes my sack, lost everything.

Q: What happened to your sack? That is, it --

A: They were sto -- sto --

Q: It was stolen? ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

A: Yeah, the whole th-thing. Now, what do I do? I don't know what to do. That's yo -- the only thing to do is go back and -- and tell them.

Q: Okay.

A: Sorry, this is what happened. I did.

Q: Okay.

A: But I never got to find them, cause they had left.

Q: Abruzzo?

A: They left Abruzzo, and they ran for their life north, cause the war had ended.

Q: Well, the war had -- I'm confused by that, because at that point, if it was the allies in Italy going northwards, and we're talking in 1944, the war had not ended yet. But, as far as Italy being on its own, that had ended. Is that correct?

A: I'm not sure -- I'm not sure I --I have it all.

Q: That's okay, that's okay. What I'd like to -- then to find out is, when did the American troops liberate, or -- Rome, or take over --

A: Well, that's the point.

Q: I see, so it ended in Rome. So the war ended in Rome because the Americans came in.

A: Right.

Q: Got it. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

A: The day after I le -- I left. Had I known that the -- that the war ended, I would have just marched onto the American side.

Q: To stayed in Rome.

A: Stayed. Like an idiot, I went all the way -- went through the problem of losing 2,000 lira worth of --

Q: Goods.

A: -- goods.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: That I could have used mys-myself.

Q: Yeah.

A: Found out that the people that were waiting for me, forgot about me. They couldn't care less.

Q: Cause they're --

A: They were saving their life.

Q: Yeah.

A: And here I was alone, with no money, with nothing to put in-- in my mouth.

Q: What did you do?

A: Thitchhike to Milan.

Q: Uh-huh. Okay. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

A: Reached Milan several days later.

Q: Okay, and then what happened?

A: My mother was frightened that -- that her husband was gonna be taken away from her. She -- my father -- she said, your father isn't expected tonight, so you better leave. And she gave me the address of -- I guess he -- I don't know -- he was a high ranking officer of the Italian --

Q: Military?

A: -- mili-- military, who was in the first World War with my fa-father.

Q: Wo - okay.

A: My father gave me the address.

Q: Okay.

A: Of a caserne where he -- this fr-friend of his was --

Q: A caserne, is that the same thing as a barracks?

A: As a what?

Q: Barrack? Is a caserne a barrack?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: It's a big bar-barrack -- many barrack.

Q: Many barracks. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande ~ March 3, 2015

A: Many barrack.

Q: Okay. So you -- he gave you the friend's address, and --

A: And I went to see him.

Q: Okay.

A: He said, I need just a -- a man like you.

Q: Okay.

A: You're free to go, just men-mention my name.

Q: Okay. And so, what did you do?

A: Believe it or not, I was given the opportu-tunity --

Q: Okay.

A: -- to do to others, what had been done to me.

Q: To you.

A: Convince them to go back to work fo-for the Germans.

Q: Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. So that was your job, is to convince them to go -- to convince former Italian military people?

A: Right, who were [indecipherable] to convince them to tell Germans where they were, so they could go -- go in faster.

Q: What a charming position to be in.

A: I caught zero persons. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

Q: [laughter]

A: [had the general -- a general on my side, so I couldn't care -- care le-less what a -- what anybody thought.

Q: Okay. Okay. So here -- so, in other words, it says, thanks to a colonel friend of your father's, he puts you to work looking for draft dodgers, and this is what you're talking about.

A: Right.

Q: And then you transferred to Torino. What's going on in Torino, what -- oh, then it says you're forced to join the German anti-aircraft? Tell me about that. What's that mean?

A: The -- the -- the general -- I call him general, maybe he was only a colonel --a colonel, but the general had a -- had an assistant, a lieutenant.

Q: Okay.

A: And had two secretaries. One was young and cu-cute, and I made some proposi- sitions.

Q: So you're still thinking about girls?

A: That's right. He didn't like it, the young one. So one day, I go back to the office, and I go by the co -- the office where the general sits. And the -- the lieutenant comes out, hey Grandi, come here, hurry up, go get your stuff and come down as ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande ~ March 3, 2015 soon as -- as possible. Yes -- yes, sir. I go upstairs, go get my stuff. I used to ha-have to sleep downtown. I come down, and he says, go down to the -- in the yard, there was a--a whole -- whole grou -- group of yo-young pe-people like me --

Q: Okay.

A: -- ready to move, to get on tra -- trucks. They put us on trucks, and that's the end of my freedom.

Q: So what does that mean? It means German anti-aircraft, what does that mean? So what did -- what does that mean by the end of your freedom, what happened to you afterwards?

A: What I say -- read right here --

Q: It says, you were forced to join the German anti-aircraft --

A: Right.

Q: -- artillery. And, is that what happened?

A: Right.

Q: So what did you have to do?

A: That group, they moved from the -- from the caserne, moved to where --

Q: It's right here, to Torino?

A: No, that's after. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande degdeg March 3, 2015

Q: Okay, it doesn't say where it moved to, where the German anti-aircraft place was.

A: Well, it was north of [indecipherable]

Q: Okay. And what did you do, what was your experience there?

A: There was a--a camp where they -- they pre-prepared the people they got, to go out and do the ditch digging.

Q: So, more ditch digging?

A: Yes.

Q: And this time did you have to dig the ditches? Could you get out of it, or not really?

A: I keep telling people I'm lucky. I'm -- I was born lucky. So, there's no -- no question about it. From there, I was put into a group, and the group moved all the way from northeastern Italy, all the way to tur -- Turin.

Q: Okay.

A: Northwest --

Q: Okay.

A: -- Italy. All I [indecipherable] anything, cause I--I was n--n--new.

Q: Cause you were new to it? ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande *e March 3, 2015

A: Iwa---I was a young -- a youngster, compared to some of the oldti-timers.

Anyhow, this -- this -- I forget how -- how it all -- the train left, but we got to Torino.

Q: Okay.

A: And we got ready to shoot airplanes coming over Turin.

Q: Okay.

A: I never shot a-- a gu--a gu--

Q: A gun.

A: --a gun. I di--I was being used near the railroad station, to keep an eye that people didn't -- didn't try to burn the railroad. That's where I spent most of the two or three days. My knowledge of ger -- German, saved me aga -- again, because all of us are -- they tell me, you go with wa -- sergeant whatever his name was. He and five of us --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- get on a train to go down southern Italy, in --

Q: Okay.

A: [indecipherable] I don't know if I -- Hora(ph) is a small town, next -- next to the head -- head town -- do I mention? ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

Q: Well, here -- here -- before we get there, you say you escaped to visit a girlfriend in Milano, and then you returned to the company, and you appeared before a judge, and were given 30 days of solitary confinement.

A: Yeah.

Q: Served while the company was moving clear across Italy, to Vipiteno, near the Brenner Pass. So, you had escaped from this unit that was fighting guns, to visit your girlfriend, and is that so?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay, hang on a minute. [break]

End of File One ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande *deg March 3, 2015

Beginning File Two

Q: Okay, so you were -- did you visit this girlfriend in Milano?

A: Yes, of course.

Q: And, were you captured?

A: She gave me some money.

Q: Ah, okay.

A: [needed mon-money.

Q: And so then, you were return --

A: To go to --

Q: Mm-hm? Then it says you appeared before a judge. What was that all about?

A: Well, there was a court-martial.

Q: You were court-martialed?

A: Not -- not that time.

Q: Okay.

A: But that time, it was a minute court-martial.

Q: Okay.

A: It wasn't -- it wasn't a co -- complete --

Q: And that was because you had gone to see her?

A: No. I don't know. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande ~ March 3, 2015

Q: You don't remember?

A: I can't read the --

Q: It says, you returned -- after you joined the German anti-aircraft -- you're forced to join the anti-aircraft unit, you're transferred to Torino, escape to visit a girlfriend in Milan, and then you return to the company, and appear before a judge, and given 30 days solitary confinement.

A: Oh well, yeah. Yes.

Q: Right here.

A: I know that.

Q: And then on the next page, it talks about what you started to talk about as Ora, and being sent to Ora.

A: Right, you're right. You're -- you're being co-confused, because I'm speaking about a month later.

Q: Yeah.

A: What does it say?

Q: Well, that's -- you already told me about being sent to look for people to -- for work for the Germans --

A: Right. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

Q: -- and that you didn't find anybody. And then this man who didn't like that you were -- the lieutenant, I think it was, that didn't like that you were flirting with this girl, and he gets you into this anti-aircraft unit. And then you're sent to -- a-and then you escape to visit your girlfriend in Milan.

A: Right.

Q: And then it says you returned --

A: The unit -- the unit went to Milan.

Q: Okay.

A: And from Milan, it went to Torino.

Q: Okay.

A: During the period they were going to Torino, I wasn't doing anything --

Q: Okay.

A: -- because I were -- I was being he-held, beca -- but I escaped from Torino. I escaped to go to Milano --

Q: Okay.

A: -- to see the girl.

Q: So, why were you being held? What was the reason that they were holding you, rather than you were working freely?

A: They -- not at this po-point -- ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande a March 3, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: --I'm not being withheld, I just ra-ran away.

Q: Okay.

A: What does it say?

Q: And it says you returned to your company, and you appear before a judge, who gives you 30 days solitary confinement.

A: That's right, that's -- the re -- the reason for that appearance, is the fact that the commanding officer --

Q: Okay.

A: -- out of the group that I was with, when I produce -- when I arrive and introduce myself, say where the hell were you? I said, I went to Mi-Milan. He says, you went and came back? I said yes. He says I had to denounce y-you, so now I'm compelled to bring you to court. So, just behave yourself. By the way, he looked like an American actor.

Q: Oh really?

A: Yeah. Now, Ill never remember Paul -- he's a tall, young, spitting image of -- I wish I could remember. That's why he became a fr --a fr --a fr --

Q: A friend?

A: Well, I mean, he treated me as a friend when I went back. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

Q: Right, so --

A: He -- he could have put handcu-cuffs on me, and treated me mali-malicious.

Q: So -- so, in other words, because you went to visit your girlfriend, but you came back, he said, I've got to do something, and he gives you 30 days solitary confinement?

A: Right.

Q: Okay.

A: But the solitary confinement --

Q: Okay.

A: -- was spent on a train going from Torino, back to where I ca --

Q: Came from.

A:--came from. So again, my luck. I never had to lift a paper.

Q: It is kind of lucky, considering what could have been done.

A: Yeah, that's right.

Q: Okay. So then in October 1944, you're sent with six other prisoners to Ora, to act as an interpreter?

A: Right.

Q: Okay, is that part of this 30 days?

A: No, no, no, that's got nothing -- that was the -- that was the end. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

Q: Okay. So here it gets started -- it starts to get serious, but not all of it is clear to me. So you serve 30 days, and then part of that 30 days is being moved by train back to where you had come from?

A: No, no, no, tha -- it doesn't work that way.

Q: Okay.

A: The lieutenant, which had to tell the higher authority --

Q: Right.

A: -- that I had es-escaped, was on my side.

Q: I understand, okay.

A: So he made it so that I got 30 days. That's the worst that could have happened.

Q: Okay.

A: He gave me 30 days.

Q: Okay.

A: I started using it.

Q: Okay.

A: But the whole company --

Q: Okay.

A: -- was moving to eastern Italy. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

Q: Okay. Hang on a second. Hang on a minute. Someone coming? No? Okay, so they were moving to eastern Italy?

A: Right.

Q: Okay.

A: So, by the time we got to eastern Italy, since we were mo-moving slowly --

Q: Okay.

A: --I don't remember how many days it took, but by the time we got to the other side of it, the change in perso-sonnel was taken care of -- of the fact that I had 30 days to do. I probably could have done 10 -- 10, or 15 --

Q: Okay.

A: -- or maybe o-only two, it doesn't matter.

Q: Okay.

A: Once I get on the other side, that's for-forgot.

Q: Okay.

A: Ora is a brand -- brand --

Q: New thing?

A: -- new thing totally [indecipherable]

Q: So tell me what happens in Ora. Would you want a break a little bit?

A: Yes. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande degdeg March 3, 2015

Q: Okay. [break] Okay, you said something was amazing that happened to you in Ora. What was that?

A: When I got there -- [knocking] Come in! [break]

Q: Okay, so we're back now, and we're talking about -- about Ora, and that that's a whole new thing.

A: Yeah, I arrive at the -- there was a [indecipherable] American flags were fl- flying over Bolzano.

Q: Okay.

A: Ora is right next door to Bolzano --

Q: Okay.

A: -- which is a main city. It's a large city. And th-the air -- the air is clearing --

Q: Okay.

A: -- and they s-sounded a ho-horn, means the planes are no longer there.

Q: Okay.

A: So I get down into the cubbyhole, where the commander was, and he thanks me for being an inter-interpreter for --

Q: Okay. And this is a German commander?

A: A German commander.

Q: Okay. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande "6 March 3, 2015

A: And -- and I'm sent a -- upstairs, to find a place where to put my stuff.

Q: Okay.

A: All this --

Q: Well, it says you're sent with six other prisoners to Ora, to act as an interpreter.

And then it says, in October 15", you're sent to prison in Bolzano. Why would you be sent to prison in Bolzano?

A: Why?

Q: And then it says, on November 15", some time like that, you're tried for treason.

A: Yeah.

Q: And -- at Soprabolzano.

A: That's right.

Q: Well, tell me, what happened, that this thing has happened.

A: Well, what I want to know [indecipherable] read -- read again.

Q: It says there's -- this is what it says, in October 1944, you're sent with six other prisoners to Ora, to act as an interpreter. And then the next sentence is that then in October, later on in the month, you're sent to prison in Bolzano.

A: Oh, oh yeah. I skipped th-the most important thing.

Q: Yes. What is that?

A: What they were doing is they was firing guns against American planes. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande *" March 3, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: And they fi-finally recognized that they will never reach a gun, because the guns were about 10,000 meters.

Q: The p -- the planes were above 10,000 --

A: I mean, the --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- the plane. So they couldn't reach the plane. So they decided to lift the -- the guns, which were of the kind that had whe-wheels.

Q: Okay.

A: Very un-unlike Italians [indecipherable]

Q: Anti-aircraft guns, mm-hm.

A: Lift them and take them a thousand fee-feet above.

Q: Okay.

A: Because we were right underneath a mountain. So while we were pulling guns out the mountain, we stopped for lunch.

Q: Okay.

A: And I was o-overheard by a -- an Italian lieutenant, to say I will never fire a gun against allied planes, because I was bor-born in Boston. And my fa--I--- I'm as ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015 much a ci-citizen of Boston as I am of Italy. This was overheard, and that's why I got -- I was s-sent to prison.

Q: So you were arrested and sent to prison.

A: All I--the way it ca-came about was after they heard what I s-said -- I was going to tell you what -- what I -- maybe I am tired. So read that. Read that again.

Q: Okay. So then, after you're overheard, you're sent to prison in Bolzano. Did they come and just take you away?

A: Oh, no. A night later, I get a-- somebody tells me the captain wants -- the -- the lieutenant want -- wants to see you. So I go down -- downhill to where the lieuten- tenant, and I stand on attention in front of him. He had a Iron Cross as a collar. He starts talking, talks for about 10 or 15 minutes, getting excited. And all of a sudden, do you understand? I said no. He said [indecipherable] get out.

Q: Okay.

A: I got out, and they put the --

Q: Handcuffs on you.

A: -- handcuffs. I spent three days in a -- in the cellar of a-- of a--a house filled with mice. Three days later, they took me to Bolzano.

Q: Okay. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande degdeg March 3, 2015

A: Put me in jail. Again, my lu-luck show -- shows up. I'm in jail, it's three bed; one two, three. Three little beds. I come in that -- there's a German who gets off -- the -- off the -- the level he's -- he's in.

Q: He gets off hi-- the level that he's on? Of the bunkbeds?

A: Pardon?

Q: What does this German do?

A: He gets off.

Q: Off his bed?

A: Yeah. To come and talk to me, or I don't know what. Because, from the third floor, a handsome son of a gun, jumps off, gets down, grabs ahold of, said, you are [indecipherable] and I'm gonna kill you. [knocking] Come in. [break]

Q: Okay. So this guy comes to you and says -- he grabs you and he says, I'm gonna kill you? Is that what he does?

A: So he gra -- he grabs the -- the German.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: The guy is an ital -- an Italian.

Q: Okay.

A: Young guy. He jumps -- he say -- he gets ahold of this German guy. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

Q: Oh, the one who brings you in? Or the other one who jumped down? ""m confused. Can you tell me again?

A: Yeah.

Q: So you go to the -- you're brought to a prison in Bolzano, after you spent the time with -- in that cellar with the mice.

A: Right.

Q: And when you walk in the room, you see three planks of beds, right?

A: Right.

Q: Bunkbeds, one, two, three. And a German guy jumps off of one of them? Who comes up to you?

A: The -- the lower one.

Q: The lowest one, okay. And what does he want to do?

A: The word is f-a-e -- c-k.

Q: Oh, I see. He wants to attack you.

A: Yes. And this Italian guy sees that, jumps over, grabs ahold of him, hangs him up by the -- at the wall.

Q: Right.

A: Says, you touch this guy, and I'Il kill you. [indecipherable] said, he won't bother you. Don't worry about a thing. https://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

Q: Wow.

A: So he gave his name, I forget it.

Q: Okay.

A: I forget the name, but it was my lu-luck that he would be there to defend me.

Q: Yes.

A: Cause I don't know what I would have done. But again my luck won't allow something awful to happen to me.

Q: What an introduction to prison, you know? Unbelievable. Unbelievable that someone wants to attack you the first second you're there.

A: Yeah.

Q: And someone else comes to your defense.

A: Right.

Q: So, is that still in Bolzano prison, or is that already the concentration camp?

A: Bolzano prison.

Q: Okay. Do you get transferred at some point, to the concentration camp?

A: Yes, not after -- not before the tr-trial.

Q: Okay.

A: I was tried by a German court-martial. At this time, it's sitting with a major --

Q: Okay. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

A: -- in charge, and there's a -- a lieuten-tenant, a captain, a -- a regular soldier, which has no rank whatso -- [indecipherable] standing up in front.

Q: Right.

A: And this guy is talking. Said now [indecipherable] you would -- you would be.

I'm going to try and see if you understand.

Q: Okay. They're speaking in Italian?

A: Speaking in German.

Q: They're speaking in German, okay.

A: With an interpreter.

Q: Okay.

A: I would have understood what he was s-saying.

Q: Okay.

A: Most of what he was saying, but I wouldn't have un -- spoken a word, because it was too -- too tech-technical.

Q: Okay.

A: But he gives me this talk about you gotta climb a mou -- a mountain, and you decide that it's too high, and that you're not gonna climb it, be-because of -- of its hi -- height.

Q: Height, mm-hm. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

A: Says, now do you unders -- understand? That's not a way to win a war. Have you got anything to say? I said, if I had a mountain to climb, and I measured it, the height, and decided it was too high, I would make sh -- make shoes who were in good order, and I would run for a pl-place to -- to --

Q: To the --

A: -- to -- to be living. I-- I wou -- would -- wouldn't even consider going up to the mountain. I wanted to s-say, you're gonna lose the war, and you don't know -- know it y-yet. He -- he -- he wa -- was working with a pencil, and he busted the head of the pencil. He got pissed off.

Q: Wow.

A: And he said, time is up. They moved, went to deliberated. About five minutes later, they come ba-back. Four and a half years concentration camp. Goodbye everybody. That was it.

Q: Oh my goodness.

A: So they take me --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- from where I was, back to prison. They came there the next day, to take me to the camp. I was in bol -- bolzan -- ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande (tm) March 3, 2015

Q: Bolzano. Well, here is a question that I've got. You said earlier that you weren't very political, you weren't paying much attention of what was going on in, you know, in Italy, politically. You're interested mostly in girls. Your father is the one who forced you to be drafted, and then you could leave that. How did you come to know, or come to believe that the allies would win the war, and the Germans would lose it? That's thinking about strategy, about military, about where the war is going.

Not everybody would have had that opinion. They would have just slogged on.

A: Well I-- I had that opinion from day one. It was a given. As far as I wa -- was concermed.

Q: Why?

A: And when we were talking about this fo -- this time --

Q: Yeah?

A: -- the allies were at the gates of Florence. The guy was idiotic to say that they were going to win the war, when the best that they could do was a better part of the country. They already said we -- we don't n-- we don't -- we don't believe. It doesn't ma-matter. It's obvious that they didn't believe --

Q: They didn't believe that --

A: -- they lost the w -- the wa -- the war. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande (r) March 3, 2015

Q: And what about the other Italians? You said this one Italian is the one who betrayed you, who overheard you speaking that, saying that, that you would never shoot on American planes. Did most Italians who were now in this situation, as you were, were they also very kind of, nah, the Germans are going to lose? Or were they working for it?

A: I can't spe-speak to that, because I never really investigated.

Q: Oh, this is a --a little bit -- excuse me, let me pull this up like that, and like that, and then we do this. Hang on, just like that, okay. That's the microphone. Does it --

A: I never investigate.

Q: Okay.

A: And the mo -- the man that -- that -- [knocking] Come in! [break]

Q: So, we were talking about -- about exactly what that German officer said, and how he was -- he was telling you about going up that mountain, and you responded, and saying, well, if I had a good pair of shoes, I'd run away instead, rather than climb up that mountain. And they gave you four and a half years in a concentration camp. Is that correct?

A: Yes, but I didn't hear it well enough to say yes or no.

Q: Okay.

A: You speak a little too -- too soft. https://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

Q: Soft, okay. So I'll try louder. You got four and a half years at that court-martial.

A: Yes.

Q: For a concentration camp.

A: Right.

Q: So tell me, what happened then? After -- after that sentence, what happened to you?

A: Good question.

Q: Did they take you to the concentration camp?

A: No, then -- what did I say?

Q: It says here, you're transferred in early December, 1944, you're transferred to the Bolzano concentration camp.

A: Yeah. But what after that?

Q: After that you're transferred to another place, a Sterzing in southern Tyrol, in early April. So you're in the Bolzano concentration camp for about three or four months. After the ger -- after that court-martial, or that tri -- tri--

A: Anyway, they took me to the prison, and after the prison, they took me to concentration camp.

Q: Okay.

A: And I was in the concentration camp for at least a month. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

Q: Oh, it says here, much more, three or four months. So tell me, what was that like, in the camp?

A: Pretty rough. Very basic. We had a big pot of dirty water, which was called -- I just had -- had it --

Q: Soup?

A: -- for lunch. No. Why -- this -- you open the --

Q: Ah, it was like coffee?

A: No, the one in the paper.

Q: A --s-sugar? It was some sort of sweetener in the paper.

A: No, no, no, no. What I ate was in a -- in a big bowl.

Q: Okay, that was soup. Soup.

A: No, that was -- anyhow, it's not that important. They took me to a concentration camp. I was there less than a month.

Q: Okay.

A: That I can re-remember. But all we had was a cup of sou-soup --

Q: Okay.

A: -- to eat for around lunch. And --

Q: Did you have to work? ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande (tm) March 3, 2015

A: No. We were in a concentration camp. There was a -- a priest that used to say ma-mass at the drop of a hat.

Q: Really? Were you a religious person?

A: Not really.

Q: Okay. Who were the other prisoners in the concentration camp? What kind of people were there?

A: I wa--couldn't tell. I-- I never asked the que -- the question. There were --

Q: Did you get in -- did you have discussions with people? Did you talk to anybody?

A: I talked to an English lady, who was the only one that was being tr-treated fairly by the author-thorities. She s-slept in the infirmary.

Q: Okay.

A: And she was -- sh-she was a nurse, a glori-glorified nur-nurse in -- can't remember the name of the place -- for a rich family, that hired a British --

Q: Like a governess?

A: Governess.

Q: Okay.

A: And I used to talk to her.

Q: Were the other people i -- also Italian prisoners?

A: Yeah. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: As far -- as far as -- as I could tell. But I was there only wi -- briefly. Now, I don't re-remember whether it was much more than a -- than a month.

Q: Okay.

A: Or maybe not even a mo -- a month, because all of a sudden, they put me on a truck, and they send me north.

Q: Okay. They sent you north? To what place?

A: Wait a minute. There is so-something wrong.

Q: Okay, shut -- all -- all right, what do you think is wrong?

A: I went n-north, but it happened earlier. I don't really recall.

Q: Okay. Here it is that in November of 1944, you are tried for treason, at Soprabolzano.

A: Yeah.

Q: And then you're transferred to the Bolzano concentration camp. And then you're transferred to a place called Sterzing, or -- or Sterzing, but Sterzing, southern Tyrol. That's in early April.

A: Sterzing. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

Q: Yeah. But that's in April, so it sounds like you spent the winter in Bolzano concentration camp, from this list here. And then that you were liberated, the ilba -- Italy celebrates the end of the war in late April.

A: Yes, but this is -- this isn't what happened to me.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah. Yeah, this -- I got it wrong.

Q: Okay.

A: At some point. But that's correct. Early December, transferred to a concen -- concentration camp, early April, 45.

Q: Transferred to Sterzing --

A: Oh, this is the one --

Q: Yeah.

A: --I was talking about. They put me o-on a truck --

Q: Okay.

A: --and send me to -- to -- to ster --

Q: To Sterzing. Okay, what was this Sterzing? Was that another concentration camp?

A: No -- yes, in effect, but it was a military co-- a--a--- there was ... the thing I talked to you about, Milan and ka -- friend of my father. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

Q: That's right. The -- who -- who had hired you to help catch other --

A: Right.

Q: -- draft dodgers. This person.

A: Well, he was in charge of a --

Q: A [indecipherable] area?

A: --a---ofa big company --

Q: Okay.

A: --in Milan. That big company was a model for Italy, for the military.

Q: Okay.

A: And the military are talking about there, is one of those in Sterzing.

Q: In Sterzing. So this was Italian, not German?

A: No, no, it's Italian.

Q: Okay.

A: Southern Tyrol was half German, hal-half ita -- ital --

Q: Italian.

A: Sterzing was mostly German. So they moved me -- me [indecipherable] cause we could work a lot easier, and bet -- and bet --

Q: In -- in Sterzing, in southern Tyrol.

A: Right. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande ia March 3, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: But it wasn't for long.

Q: Yeah, that's only about less than a month.

A: Because they sent me to Ora.

Q: No, no, no, no, Ora is before then. Ora is in "44. Sterzing is only for one month, in Tyrol, and then at April 25", there's the end of the war. The war ends.

A: Right.

Q: Okay.

A: The second World War, the second.

Q: Right. So tell me, how were you liberated? How were you liber --

A: They opened the gates.

Q: And did you walk out?

A: Yeah.

Q: And what did you --

A: I started walking --

Q: Okay.

A: -- downhill towards what I knew was I-Italy.

Q: Okay. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande a March 3, 2015

A: And -- and within the first 20 yards, maybe wa -- maybe 50, there was a Jeep that was coming my way, and I waved, I stopped it. The guy said, do you speak English? I says, ""m American. You're American, where from? Boston. Jump in.

Q: Oh my gosh.

A: So I walked -- I jumped in. He says, you know anything about this area? I says, what do you need to know? He says, I got a captain that wants to sleep in a nice [indecipherable]. Do you know a place where I can send him to go to sleep? I says, go back to Sterzing. They have one restaurant that I know of. So he turned around, went back to Sterzing, got out, and there was a -- a colonel, running away, sort of, to advise his girlfriend that some -- something's going wrong.

Q: A German colonel?

A: An American.

Q: An American colonel, okay.

A: The -- the lieutenant I was with said, okay, everything is in order, we can leave now.

Q: Okay.

A: I mean, he -- he knew where his bre -- bread -- bread was bu-butter.

Q: Okay, he wasn't going to interrupt this colonel.

A: That's right. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande a March 3, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: Which -- which he didn't. What does it say there?

Q: It says you helped him find a hotel for his colonel, and -- and that's it, and then you say you helped, and then you joined the 88" division as an interpreter, and rounding up German prisoners.

A: Right.

Q: So tell me a little bit about that.

A: Nothing, I was trying to find G.L.s. But that's the end of the story.

Q: Pretty much, but I'd like to find out more about your involvement with this 88" division. How long did you work with them?

A: Oh, just a week, maybe two, cause I was anxious to get home. They didn't know where I was.

Q: Yeah, it had been a long time.

A: Of course.

Q: It had been half a year, at least, you know, if not more.

A: Right.

Q: So, where did you go? After that week or so, where did you go? Did you go back to Milan? ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande a March 3, 2015

A: That's -- that was -- that was the -- what I wanted to do, which I did, but let me read that.

Q: Okay. Here. Here is this page right here, right there.

A: Yeah, I joined the 88" division, serving as interpreter. That -- that lasted a week, cause I --I said, I got to go and tell my mother tha -- that I'm still alive. But I figured it made better living to put [indecipherable] I never joined, actually. I mean, the lieutenant told me -- told me I was joining the 88. He was with the 88" division.

Q: Division, yeah. So, but then you left to go back home to your family?

A: Yes.

Q: And they were in Milan. Were they in Milan, your family?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. And what did --

A: Not -- not far from where Mussolini had his girlfriend were hung. Less than a mile, maybe less than two miles from where they hanged him. So this -- this is the end of the -- the story.

Q: Well, tell me a little bit about your life after the war. When you got -- the war is over, you go back to Milan, there's no more military, there's no more --

A: I go to Padua.

Q: You go to Padua. And -- and did you start studying? ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

A: Yes.

Q: And did you -- and what did you s -- what did you study?

A: When?

Q: No, what? What did you study.

A: Letters and philosophy.

Q: Letters and philosophy?

A: Right.

Q: And when did you finish?

A: Now that's tricky, because I al -- also had to work for -- to go to college.

Q: What -- what did you do for work?

A: Interpreting at the -- at the bu -- the train stop in Padua. The trains with military people would stop for 30 minutes, and there were people that needed interpreters.

And I was be-being paid -- I forget what it was, but I remember I was making enough money to go to college. And I had some money to spend [indecipherable]

Q: And a -- after you finished college, what kind of work were you doing?

A: I was just an interpreter for the state de-department.

Q: The U.S. State Department?

A: Iwa---I was the first out of four people that were hired by the United States government, to do simultaneous inter-interpreting. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

Q: Wow.

A: For the State Department, on an annual basis.

Q: That's after you got to the United States?

A: No, before.

Q: Before, even?

A: Before.

Q: Before, wow.

A: And they -- they -- they gave me a year -- a year's contract, renewable for another year. And on April, I think it was a day or two after my birthday, I came to Washington, and never left. One way -- one way or another, I been living in washi -- in Washington, all -- all the -- the time.

Q: So, when did you return to the United States from Italy? What --

A: Ni- 1951.

Q: In 1951. And before you left it --

A: To be an interpreter.

Q: Uh-huh. I see. So your brother came over because of the Jewish-American person who paid his way.

A: Right. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande = March 3, 2015

Q: Silvio came over that way, and you -- you came over because the U.S. State Department hired you?

A: Right. I had been looking for a way to get to the United States, but I didn't have any money. So, a-again my luck would have it, I was doing some work as a ticket agent for Scandinavian airlines in Rome. | had checked in the wife of the king of --

Q: Denmark?

A: No. The one that is in the news all the time. The one we -- we hate.

Q: Scandinavian?

A: No, no, no. The Arabs.

Q: Oh, you're talking about Saudi Arabia, or Jordan, or Iran, or Iraq?

A: Iran.

Q: Iran.

A: She was the queen of ir --

Q: Iran.

A: -- of Iran. She had what I can -- I can see, at -- at least five, maybe 10 foot cases.

Q: Suitcases.

A: Suitcases.

Q: That's a lot of cases. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande .deg March 3, 2015

A: That's -- that's -- that's what she was traveling with. But I told you I was -- I was acting as a ticket agent.

Q: That's right.

A: [indecipherable] and ... I wanted to tell you something about -- I was so -- can you --

Q: I can pause, hang on. [break]

A: Oh yes.

Q: Okay.

A: A friend of mine, British, living in Rome, goes by and opens the door, and I'm right behind that door. Says, Elio, they are looking for interpreters to go abroad.

Check the one -- the -- I gave the name of a newspaper that was being published. So I did. I went behind the -- the place, and I took the address, and I called. I said, I understand you're looking for interpreters. He says, well, we're looking for people who speak Italian. I said, sono Italiano, parla Italiano. Oh, we want to talk to you.

Do you know where the [indecipherable] hotel is? I says, sure, sure I know where the -- he says, well, it's room whatever it was. Can you make it by two o'clock? I said, sure, any time later? Make it -- make it two -- 2:30. Okay, thank you. They interrogated, making me to interpret, translating.

Q: Right away. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande *deg March 3, 2015

A: Word for word. The net result, I was number four. They interviewed 100.

Q: Over a hundred people?

A: One hundred. I was 101. By mistake, they interview me.

Q: Really?

A: Again, luck.

Q: Oh my goodness.

A: Can you be th -- any luckier? They had to select four s --

Q: People.

A: -- out of a hundred. They selected four out of 101. The number one was the son of the wife of the prime minister of Italy.

Q: Oh my goodness.

A: He had -- he had to be number one. But I consider myse-self the number one of that group.

Q: Fantastic. Fantastic.

A: Talk about happy.

Q: Yeah, talent and luck both.

A: Right.

Q: Yeah. So, in 1951, you come to the United States.

A: Correct. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

Q: Seventeen years, you said, after you first left.

A: Well, I keep thinking I left in *33.

Q: So, 18 years.

A: Almost 18.

Q: Yeah, a long time. Is there anything you want to add to your story, of what we've talked to today, about your experiences during the war? Anything else you'd like to say?

A: No, I think it appears to anybody with a little bit of education, that I didn't recognize the importance of politics.

Q: No, I don't think it does that.

A: I--I want to tell you this much, for whatever you -- you s -- you want to make -- make of it. Why is it when I get something to say ... it's like it runs away? It runs away, I --I can't hold.

Q: You were talking about the im -- that it -- you might have the impression, if someone listens to this, that you didn't recognize the importance of politics.

A: Yes. When I -- when I finished working for the State Department, I got a--I got --Ira--I---I worked -- I worked for the s -- the State Department, that's it. That's it.

Q: Mm-hm. When we were talking about politics, it was when you were a young boy. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

A: Politics is the word.

Q: Yeah.

A: Ll interpreted for the most famous labor union leader in America.

Q: Who was that?

A: Two of them. I--T'll tell you, once I-- I can re-remember. One was a president of the labor union for the whole shebang, and the other one was the president of labor union of the auto -- automobile workers. The one -- the second one is the one that impressed me. That must have happened in 19 -- early 1952. I was interpreting for an -- an Italian bigwig labor union leader. And in all of a sudden hurt me like a 10 ton truck. What in the hell did I think? Economics is the important thing in life. Not Homer, not Dante, not any number of -- economics. And I should -- should have done what I almost did. I should have gone back to -- to school, and gotten a degree in econ --I feel like I-- I got a degr-gree anyhow, but it isn't in writing.

Q: Well, sometimes it takes a while for people to really figure out what it is that they find important, and they wouldn't have figured it out if they hadn't gone through all sorts of other avenues.

A: That's right.

Q: You know? They wouldn't have gotten there.

A: That's what happened to me. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande * March 3, 2015

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: But I thought you'd want to know.

Q: I do. Thank you.

A: And that's -- that's a key moment of my life, and I was in the presence of a very powerful man, because he represented hundreds of thousands --

Q: Of labor workers.

A: -- of labor workers.

Q: Yeah. Well, I want to take this opportunity right now to thank you for sharing your views, for sharing your experiences, and your story of what your life was like before and during the war.

A: Right.

Q: And with this, I will conclude the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Mr. Elio Grandi.

A: How -- how about my mother's [indecipherable] of Jewish de-des-descent.

Q: Did that make an impact during the war? Did that have an impact there?

A: I wanted to say --

Q: Aha. So that's something we didn't cover. Okay, let's cover it.

A: Her mother was Jewish. Her father was Jewish. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

Q: Your mother was Jewish? Or your -- your grandmother was Jewish, and your grandfather was also Jewish, or was he Italian?

A: Yeah -- no, he -- he was Jewish.

Q: So that means your mother was Jewish.

A: Yes. And so -- so am I.

Q: Half Jewish.

A: Well, I am Jewish.

Q: Okay. And your father?

A: He is no one. Nobody.

Q: But he wasn't Catholic --

A: No.

Q: -- he wasn't Jewish, he wasn't religious at all?

A: No.

Q: Oh.

A: So I thought you'd want -- want to know.

Q: Yes, yes. Now, didn't that put you in danger with the Germans?

A: It didn't result that I was Jewish, because there was no pa-paper that said so. I answered to a Catholic.

Q: I see. I see. https://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Elio Grande 8 March 3, 2015

A: But my grandmother was afraid for her life. Here comes --

Q: Yes?

A: -- my luck again. My mo -- my mother's -- my mother's sister Leah was an artist, a pa-painter of quite renown. She ended up doing a portrait of the he-head of the Italian automobile manufacturer --

Q: Okay.

A: --u-union. She had the cu-custody of her mo-mother, and escaped to a small town in the venes -- Venice --

Q: In the Venetian area, mm-hm.

A: -- re-region. Because my grandmother's name was Jewish.

Q: What was her last name?

A: As I'm thinking, I'm losing the name.

Q: Okay.

A: But as soon as -- as I know it --

Q: Okay.

A: --I would -- it's a f-famous Jewish na --

Q: Name, mm-hm.

A: She's not related to the famous, but she has the same name as a Jewish -- it's a short name. They were living in -- Holy Christ. ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande 8 March 3, 2015

Q: I think you said it was the Venetian region -- Venetian region?

A: Well, she moved --

Q: There.

A: --to a small town, hoping that no one -- body will go and tell the Germans that some Jews were -- which is what happened, actually.

Q: Somebody did tell the Germans?

A: No.

Q: Nobody did.

A: Nobody. But what -- I was saying s-something else.

Q: It was that your -- your Aunt Leah, who was an artist, had -- she was taking care of your grandmother.

A: Right.

Q: She had custody of your grandmother, and that she had moved away, so that no -- they could escape, and nobody would --

A: Right. And it's amazing. I'm interpreting for somebody in Washington, D.C. I get a fi--a ph-phone call, says, is this Cornelio(ph)? I says, where'd you get my name? He says, my name is -- and he gave his name. I said, we're related. He says, yes, but I'm busy. Where -- where you busy, where? International. Another name that I can't -- you know, the -- ontectnetbnancedjushetnney for father Hlonmalberabouttfiseetecion Interview with Elio Grande "7 March 3, 2015

Q: Let's go back a little bit. This -- this kind of puts a different spin on things for me. Was your mother in danger? Were your siblings in danger of -- of being rounded up for being half-Jews?

A: No.

Q: No. But your grandmother might have been.

A: Yes. Because --

Q: And your aunt --

A: -- her name was Jewish.

Q: Jewish.

A: [indecipherable] didn't have any name, and -- and you didn't ha -- profess Jewish.

Q: Right. And what about your mother's maiden name? Do you remember what your mother's maiden name was?

A: Christ I --I [indecipherable] That's the reason why I wrote this. Marcolini(ph).

Q: Uh-huh, Marcolini(ph).

A: Marcolini(ph).

Q: That was your mother's maiden name?

A: Yeah.

Q: That sound very Italian to me. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande 8 March 3, 2015

A: It is.

Q: So -- so it -- you couldn't tell from Marcolini(ph) that they --

A: No.

Q: Okay. So it was your grandmother's maiden name that made her Jewish.

A: Right.

Q: It wasn't her married name.

A: Well, I don't know what her married name --

Q: Marcolini(ph). Your grand --

A: Oh, yes.

Q: -- your grandmother would have been Mrs. Marcolini(ph), and her daughter --

A: Right, right.

Q: -- your mother -- what's your mother's first name, by the way?

A: Elsa.

Q: Elsa. And your father's name was Paolo?

A: Right.

Q: Okay.

A: And the reason my mother's is Elsa is because her brothers -- brothers and sisters all had non-religious name. Elsa, Leah, Corliano(ph), David --

Q: David, mm-hm. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande " March 3, 2015

A: And two or three others. Carla --

Q: Okay. [knocking]

A: Come in.

Q: Hang on just a second. [break] So let's -- let's kind of -- let's wrap it up a little bit. About -- was any of your family on your mother's side, affected by German policies during World War II?

A: Not that I know of.

Q: Okay, okay. Were they practicing Jews, as far as you knew?

A: Nobody was practicing.

Q: Okay.

A: Not even my gran-grandmother.

Q: Okay. So they were secular, and integrated.

A: Right.

Q: Okay. Well, thank you for telling me that.

A: Oh, you're welcome.

Q: Thank you for sharing that with me.

A: Yeah. ontactrefieannedjustanmiang er hither btemelortabnattfiexaliaton Interview with Elio Grande _ March 3, 2015

Q: Okay. And so now I'll say for the second time, this concludes the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Mr. Elio Grandi, on March 3", 2015. Thank you very much.

A: Your -- you're we -- you may want to add, it's Dr. Grandi.

Q: Dr. Grandi.

A: Since I have a do-doctorate from the second oldest university in the world.

Q: And that is?

A: Padua.

Q: Padua. Padova.

A: Right.

Q: University.

A: 888.

Q: Wow. Wow. From Dr. Elio Grandi. So this concludes the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Dr. Elio Grandi, on March 3", 2015.

A: Correct.

Q: Thank you.

End of File Two Conclusion of Interview