Document

MINA PEARLBERGER December 1, 1989

Q: Will you tell me your name and when and where you were born?

A: My name is Mina Glucksman, my maiden name. Mina Glucksman. I was born in Poland in Tyczyn near in a small town. It was in this town 3,000 Jews...about 300 families, but everybody had 8 children, 10 children, so it was like 3,000, I think, Jews when the war started. And I...I and my...my parents were very Hasidic Jews. We built a house. We had a house from Great Grandfather. My...my father had the house from Great Grandfather and then it was very old. Eight years before the war we built...over there wasn't...wasn't...uh..that you can...uh...uh..for...for that you can pay off...only you had to have money to build so they put together penny to penny to be able to build a new home because the children started to grow up. So 8 years before the war, my...my parents built a new home and...and the old home we took apart. My father was...had...my mother and father had the business, a grocery store, but in Poland a grocery store was not only groceries for sale only they were buying from the farmers there. They were buying...uh...the products like...like...uh, eggs, and grain and...and everything from the...and...and they came and insist and my father was buying the ...he took...he took the working people what they picked the food and this we..we exported to Cartovich.

We...my...my...father and mother had a very big business, but from this business we had only a living, because mostly went to the government for taxes. They taxed the Jews...the Jews very high. So, here he would be a rich man. Over there, we were...we were...uh...

average, not too rich, not too... You want from the...before the war, so I tell you. My mother...in this town was few families what they were very poor. They have many children and they were very poor so my mother every week, Thursday, she packed few packages to take to the poor one...to the poor families and when they came from public school, she gave me this to...to...to deliver to this family. It was 2 kilometers to the east, prunes, sugar, eggs, to have for them for . So this every week, and I had to hid this because she didn't want people to know that she delivered to this families because this families were ashamed to be poor." So we were Jews and my father brought always from the a beggars. They came over there for for the meals. He brought sometimes 2, 3 and somehow my mother find always enough food for everybody. And this was only for the meal. So from small kids we learned how to give...how to give to...to people what shared... to people what they don't have. And we wasn't rich but when a beggar come in, he never went out hungry from us. My brothers went to the Yeshiva". They were...they were...they were real Yeshiva boys. My father was a very Hasidic man and my mother...wore a wig. And on , my father was wearing his . I don't know whether you know what a and in...silk , and they were very, very Hasidic . Our family, my mother's special family...was a child didn't...didn't have to say a by...by a marriage who...uh...they want this or this. The parents made the marriages, so I was like a rebelling. And it was hurting very much my parents that I didn't want to marry a Hasidic boy. I told my mother...I promised my mother, "Listen, Mommy. You want me to..." I talked to her always Jewish. "You want me to be happy?" So she says, "Yes. What you are asking such a silly question?" So I told, "So let me...let me match to me a boy and to you I swear I

will not go with a lower family that we are. If...if I...I will never look on a boy what is in a lower family." And this I remembered even after the war, that I promised her, even she wasn't alive and it was hurting me after the war very much that I didn't give her this...I should marry a "Hasidic boy and gave...give the "Nahas from me. I had two brothers and I was painting from small kid. And I want my parents to...to let me to go in art school.

They say you are already a girl, not a girl, and that I didn't want to follow this everything what they want me to follow to marry the Hasidic boy. And you paint enough good. You sell already your painting. Show me one girl that know how to paint like you. I was writing before the war poems. I was painting. I was...I was think I will be a...I will be something very big, but when...when the war came, everything was going to the drain.

Then I had two brothers and a sister. My sister was a small child. I was also a leader of the "Ikeba what was hurting very much my parents because over there was boys and girls. I was not...uh...uh...it was half religion organization, but a funny way. It was against my parents" will. So I was leader in the...in the "Ikeba, and it was...when it was "Pakisha... This means when every leader came together I never told my parents that I am going from the "Pakisha and I go to my Grandparents...to my Grandparents over there to visit. And I went to the "Pakisha. I left here a picture from this. Then...then, also I was taking private lessons because they didn't let me go only...they let me go in only they let me go only in the business school. In business school, I finished business school.

But...but they didn't let me go gymnasium and this, so I took private lessons philosophy.

Later to graduate I took private lessons. And when I sold pictures I paid for the lessons.

Then...then...uh...then it came my...when...when it came they war, when they marched in, we were in Krakow. My brothers and I we went to Krakow, because we were going to move from this small town to Krakow. We love it Krakow. So I with my brothers were in Krakow, and my mother came to visit us one time and...and we were going to make...my brothers were going to make a business for my father to sell everything over there, the house and everything to come to a bigger town, to a bigger city. My brother...my father had over there two brothers in the same city. He had two sisters in United States from before the war. That's why I have the pictures or not I wouldn't have pictures because he was sending the pictures to his sisters and when I came to the United States they were still alive, so they gave me the pictures. And one...in here one sister, my mother had...was from six children so they have all the children. This...everything went to the gas chambers, but my...when the...when...1939, when the war started, we were in Krakow.

My brothers went right now when they hear it will be war, they went right now home to the small town to Tyczyn because they were thinking that they will be enlisted to the...to fight the Germans so they went and I was still left over there. But when I saw there marching in..in 1939 the first...in the...in the first of September, I was thinking I will not be in Germany and they will be in Poland because I saw they are moving very fast so I started to...to...] went on a train to go home but the train was bumped and then I was going by foot. I started out the first of September and I came home the 8th of September because by foot we went in night time mostly. They were...they were bombing us. They were shooting to us...to the civil people. I will not tell about this because this was the first nightmare what I saw so many people killed. I was thinking this will be the worsiest in my life but this wasn't the worsiest. Later I found out this was not the worsiest. When I came home, one day later my sister was 12 years...one day later it was her...her birthday and, 12th birthday, the Germans marched into our town. It was the 9th of September and

then...this was her birthday. And then we knew what was happening and the Kristallnacht over there. We knew that...we heard...we heard that they are burning in the way...in the marching way, they are burning synagogues. They pushed in Jews into the ghetto with this...with the...with the synagogue the Jews went to flame and we knew that it comes a disaster. We were all scared. My father when I...when I told him I am scared, he says, "Why you are scared? God is over us." He...he left everything to God. "God will save us.

England declared war in the 3rd day of the war and France, they will defeat German." But they...it started in the beginning very slow. It started that they caught us in the street.

They took us to dirty work. They degraded us by slapping in the face, by hitting. This was the beginning. Then they started. They...they started to catch from the streets to...to sent away. My brother one was sent away, but it wasn't far. He was working over there something for them, and we found out where he is and then after 2 weeks he came back...uh...then in...starved, but he came back. And then we were looking only how long we will...and then the stores were closed. Jews shouldn't have a store. The lawyers shouldn't practice law, the Jewish lawyers. The...the...the doctors, the Jewish doctors, shouldn't be doctors. They shouldn't practice. This...for what you live? So I...1 with my brother...right now they...bands we had to wear, white bands with blue stars. It is death sentence if you...we don't wear. From 6 years everybody has to wear. So how we can live when we don't have a store? So I with my brother, we decided with one brother, with Hersh, we decided to travel to take food to Krakow and to bring back things what the...what the farmers need...uh, the public here needs. So we...we...we didn't tell our parents that we take off after we pass our city, we take off our bands and we go on the train to Krakow. We didn't tell this because they would not let us, but we risk our lives to make a living for for my...for the family. It took...it took a year or so. We were every week going. And then...then we couldn't go anymore with the train so...because it was very dangerous, so we started Jawisowice kitchen and Jawisowice was already a ghetto.

This was 8 kilometer from...from our town. It was only... walking distance, it was only 1- 1/2 hour but we went with the, because the buses were already confiscated by the Germans, so we went with the...with the horses and , and it was all kind of danger we were what we never told the parents even. Because they wouldn't let us. They were starving. They wouldn't let us. And then in 1942, the beginning of 1942, it was a struggle.

It was this...I will not tell this everything because it would take til tomorrow. Uh...so in 1942 in the beginning came in two Gestapo to our home with guns and they say, "Whose the owner of this house?" So my mother and father...they brought the paper I don't know til now for what they brought the paper to sign, my mother and father should sign that they give this for...for good will to the German government. So they signed because it was guns pointed. They signed. They say, "In 5 minutes you have to go out from this house." We were living little bit in the suburbs from the town. Where to go Tyczyn to the center of Tyczyn. Okay. To the center of Tyczyn. We went to the center of Tyczyn. They gave us in..right now, they stayed a neighbor, a goy Pollack stayed and took the keys from the Germans, so he knew that we will be deported. He probably applied for the house. And...and then when we came...we came and we got only one room for the six people we got one room, and a kitchen. But we were glad that we had the one room.

My...my uncle had already people put in because put in people to every ...who has two, three rooms, they matched in...they put in other families in the one room because it was, it was lack of rooms.

Q: Who organized that?

A: The Jewish . To manage to have the... Then we had to register. Then it came contributions. Everybody...every Jew has to give away what...whatever gold he has, he has to give away. So my mother took off the wedding ring, the ear rings, and...and everybody had to give. They were Nazis they had sent us. Then it came a contribution with money. We had to deliver this and this much money. If not, ..-uh...they will take 10 people and kill. Uh...so...so we delivered the...the money to the Gestapo, and it was enough. The "Kapo delivered and it was enough, but they...they counted. You can prove to them, they killed off anyway the 10 people. Then first we had to give away even my when you have to the Germans this. First it was to search and then they gave a order: Who has to...who is owed the Pollacks money had to give under the death sentence if he will not pay off, and when the Pollacks owed the Jews, they don't have to pay. So one Pollack went to the Gestapo and said over there that my father owes him hundred...hundred dollars here, not hundred , hundred dollars. And this wasn't true. He didn't owe him. Because he wants to black our...blackmail that we will pay him not to be killed. So...so from , the President came running to us, and he says: Nafstali...to my father...Nafstali, ...uh..-uh...just hide some place because the Gestapo is coming for you because the goy", this goy"" tells over there that you owe him and he says that he came for you to ask the money...for the money, and you told he says when you will not give you the money, I will go to the German...to the German authority, so you told him...he says that you told him I have you in my ass together with the Germans. And this wasn't true. He even didn't come to us. So I was thinking my father will go with the beard, with this, they will kill him. So I told... told I will go. I went to the Gestapo. The whole town was looking that I will never come back because one Gestapo on one side and the other on the other side with rifles and I in the center. Everybody was crying. They were thinking they will never see me back. But when I came over there, then got that..that the Gestapo didn't understand Polish, and he told what my father told it was a lie, and I started to talk to them in German. And I told them, "Listen, you gave an order that we have to give back. They blackmail us. He doesn't have a penny in his... Go to his home.

You will see. He has I don't know how many children. They are going with bare foots.

He doesn't...didn't have money even to...he doesn't have. He owes us in this store money and he never gave us back. And we couldn't even make a claim because we don't have what to take from him. Go to his home. You will see how...how he is lying. You'll see that he so poor he didn't have rgw hundred dollars is like in this time was 500 "Slotas. So I told, he didn't have a "slota in his pocket. But he knows that...he was thinking we will pay to save our lives, and I was talking so nice to them, and he was screaming and they told him, "Shut up," and...and they let me go. They believed me. They let me go. You can't imagine what was happening in the whole town when they saw me alive back. The whole town was running to me and kissing me because they were thinking I...they will never see me back. This was in the beginning everything. Then it was Passover. This was the last Passover together. We sit already in this one little room. My daddy was...was...uh...leading the...the...the , and the first time I saw my father crying, the tears were coming over his beard. We all looked at each other. Here we were...had the same thing in mind. Will we sit together, the next Passover together? It was already in ghetto,

and we never sit together. This was the last Passover. And then...then right after Passover came a order: Everybody to the ghetto, to the ghetto, to the Sheslow ghetto. It was from all towns. It was going...it was going so many. It was like a...like a river of people earning the way to the ghetto. They were killing. They were... saw so many people killed, and the family was keeping only together. I didn't see my uncle with the children. I didn't see nobody. Only because we were keeping one...because we hired...uh...a... goy with...with a wagon, with...with...with horses to put some belongings over there, to take to the ghetto. And I...the first thing what I took was the...the...the writing wall what we made in home for decoration and I painted to every panel, I painted a picture. This I took with me because to have privacy if we are someplace together with people. We came to the ghetto. It was order everybody has to be registered. If they found somebody on the street, they...they...they will kill. So everybody had to get a...a room. My uncles over there, my mother's brothers and my father's sister had already many people so we got a room on a attic. It was a iron window on the attic and...and we were glad that we have already the room. First day my brother went out to go to the end for something and they caught him from the street, the Gestapo, to send away. When we heard...they caught only this time, only men, men and boys, and when we found out I...I with my mother, with my sister, run with a knapsack to bring him, to bring him some food and some clothes. And my mother when to the , to the head of the...of the Gestapo and she begged him, "I want to give the last kiss of my...to my son and give him this." So he hit her over...over the head with a whip and she fell on the pavement. And...and she cried, "I want to give the last kiss to my son." And we told her, "He will not let you. Mommy, you come home." "I will not go away." My brother from far away, he was already standing about 200 or 300 boys. He saw my mother on the...felling on the street and he wants to run and they already want him to kill so he couldn't and I saw him from far away wiping the tears. And they sent him away. And my mother and I only went to...to deliver to one solder, "Please deliver this to my brother." I don't know whether he delivered. I even didn't ask later. In the meantime, it started selections. First, they say everybody has to register to work. The young people! My mother wasn't old. She was 57. My father was 61. So, they..they wasn't...they wasn't allowed to register. And I didn't want to register. I told, "I want to go together with you. I will not." So my mother says, "You have a little sister. You have the brothers. One brother they sent away. Maybe you will need something to send him or something. Just...just please be the mother for the children." So she...it was crying this, but I had to go because she...she says you bed the of your sister because her...her...they will kill her right away. She is a little girl. So I...1 went. I went with tears and we registered to work. As soon we registered to work, they made a old ghetto and a new ghetto. The old ghetto is the people what they are not registered to work, and we were in the young ghetto. The ghetto was so crowded, 2, 3 families in one...in one room. The rooms were big, but one room, so I was glad that I have my dividing wall, that I have some privacy. And then it came....uh...we...we didn't see. We were already divided with the parents, and we saw through the window already the transports. Every day was a transport, thousands of people. It was 220,000 people registered...uh...Jews registered in the ghetto and every...every day was...and we saw through the window my uncle. He was 41, my father's brother. He was 41. She was 39, his wife. And the 6 children. The two were twins. They were from a but one died for a triple, but one died 8 days before it was born, but they were already 6 years old. Six children. They are already to be sent away.

Young people! And they looked up to our window. They were crying and we couldn't go down. We were crying. And they were sent away. Every...every child had one...one knapsack, the 6 years old. And then they saw they are taking away on the truck the knapsacks, so my aunt...my aunt took quick out from the knapsack one dress more to put on the children to have to change because she saw that they taking away. After they left from this , I saw the Polish...the Polish people taking apart from the...from the truck, the things and taking for themselves, putting in the pockets and laughing and the Polish police. We saw this that...that even when they take with them, they don't have nothing from this. And so...and it was heartbreaking to see my....... (end of tape 1, side A)...to our home. We lived in one town. And then...then we...we were taken every day to work. I, with my sister, my brother, and we didn't know nothing about the other brother. Where he was sent. Then it came time that they...that we heared that my...that the street my parents where they are, they are going away. They are sent..they will be sent away. And every day when we went from work, we tried to exchange with the Poles on the way because a Gestapo was in the front and a Gestapo in the back, but...but we took out things to exchange for bread for something to bring to the ghetto because they didn't give us food.

But we had to manage by ourself. So, and I smuggled into my parents some...some food, and then when I heared that they are going to send my parents, I went....I told my sister you go. You go to work and when they call...when they call you, you will answer and when they will call my name, you will answer too because it was 200 girls going to the same place to work. So..so she went and I...I will try to... was so naive. I was think I will try to save my parents. And I went...I wouldn't...I said goodbye to my...to my mother and she says...she says to me, "Please don't cry. I made...I made a promise to God that I will not one tear shed by saying goodbye because...because in the...maybe...maybe he will save my children. And be brave." And I wrote about this a poem also because about everything I wrote later poems. My father fell in my arms, and then my mother was taken away. My father fell in my arms. He was crying. And the...the...the SS men started to hit him over the head and he says, this what I saw, the last of my father. A young SS man hitting him over the head and chasing him to the . And then later I went to the and I saw...I didn't see them. They probably saw me because I was between the Germans...between...and I went to one Gestapo. I kissed him in the hand, and I told, "Save my parents. We are working all and we will keep my parents." And it was so silly.

And he says, "If you don't go down from this place, from this, I will kill you and your parents in your eyes." So I was thinking I will...so I went down. I went away because I was thinking...I didn't know they are sent to the gas chambers. I was thinking they are sent to work some place. So this was the last what I saw my father and mother. And then I went again next day to work. And we were working and in the meantime it came...it came...uh...uh. one, somebody came from this place where my brother was over there sent away and he is working on the...on the..uh...on the...this means on the...on the airport. He is working over there for the Germans in the other town, from "Jowiszowice was maybe about 20 kilometers. So I...I decided I will go and bring him something...food.

I will take off my band and I will smuggle myself out and I will...and I will go over there and I will dress myself nice. I will dress myself in a hat, in a..in a nice dress, and I will go like a...a...like not a Jew over there, and I will bring...so my brother says, Maybe I will see the last time my brother. I want to go too." So I told him, ""Hinue" I called him "Hinue, it was his name Hersh. "Hinue they will recognize that you are Jew. He says,

"No. I will dress myself nice, and I...and I will go with you." I...We looked like it. I had black eyes and I had green eyes and this saved me not one time. And he had...but we looked like, but he says I will go. So we went. But wherever I went to a store to buy something for my brother, to bring him over there, they didn't want sell us so I told to Hinue, "They recognize that we are Jewish. They don't want to sell us, the fools, nothing." Then it went the with Gestapo and the...the coachman was a Pollack and he told him something and I told to Hinue, "You know, he told...he told them something and they looked back. This was Gestapo with helmets. They...uh...He told that we are Jews. We were without bands, nice dress. So he says, "Let's go in this little street." And we hear behind us with the rifles and this means Jew Stay still. So we came back to them and I started to talk Polish. I made believe that I don't understand German because the Pollacks didn't understand and I told, "Listen. They...they take us for Jews. We are not Jews." So he says, "You are not Jewish, but he is Jewish." So I told, "He is my brother. If he's Jewish, I'm Jewish, but he's not. He's not Jewish. They opened my pocketbook. In my pocketbook, I had a powder...a powder case. Under the powder case I had my father and mother with a beard and my mother in a...in a wig because this was from the "Meldacot, from the German "Meldacot. I kept this everywhere with me. I kept this with me. And they opened the powder, I was thinking that's it. They will not...they will see my father and mother. They will know that I am not Jewish...that I am Jewish. But they opened so the powder covered and they didn't see. I saved my brother because then I...I...they told they will look in his pants because in Poland, the Polish people weren't circumcised and he was circumcised and I heared in German, they say they were looking in his pants and they pushed and I didn't want to go away from him. So they pushed me. I fell in the...in the dust...and the hat fell down and I...and I started to scream to them in Polish, and I told how...how animals you are, you Germans. I was thinking you are educated people so you first come in...in and see or I am Jewish, come to this village, I told some village what is very far. And come to...to my village and you will see that I am Polish. And I saved with my screaming at them so fresh. I saved the life of my brother. I later was very sorry that I saved his life because he died in a very awful way later. And I..I...and I and this time, my brother was very angry at me. He says, "Why you saved my life? Why you didn't go?

You left over there a sister alone, and you...you...you could be killed tonight." So I told him but I saved your life. He says, "One time, " , but we have to remember over there is a sister and when one of us get killed, the other has...some of us has to survive to tell this story. This...but he didn't go anymore, because over there was a and I was...went alone. I went alone and I teared out...from the field, I teared out some carrots to bring him and some money and some...some clothes. When I came over there and I saw him, he was not the same brother. He was so thin with bare foot and then when...when...the...the...the officer what he took care of the...he was a Jew and I went to him to please let me see my brother. I am Jewish, but I want to see him. So he says, "Okay. Go. Go here in the...in the...in this little hill and hide and see him, but you don't have time more than 5 minutes." We fell in each other's arms and he knew already that my parents were sent away. That our parents were sent away. We cried. I gave him the carrots. He ate. He says, "I am like an animal. You see with...with the dirt I eat because we eat here grass." He...so he says, "I'm...I'm now like a animal eating without washing. I am so hungry." And it was only 5 minutes we saw each other. We only cried. We didn't have time even...we couldn't bring out a word. Then I go...went back and met with my brother because my brother hid over

there...the other brother hid over there and waited for me. And we came back to the ghetto. And that time they send that brother...the brother didn't want to know where they will send him. The sent him back. I wrote about this in the...I will not repeat this. They sent him back to the ghetto and I wrote in the diary. I have everything written down. And then in awhile, they sent him also away from over there to the Treblinka. And he was about 2 months he was in the ghetto working, and we were working other places. From the 220,000 Jews was left by the end only 2,000. It was going transports every day. We were beaten up. We were...we were always by the work. One time the , he...he hit only girls...girls, not boys, only girls. And one time I was packed with things to take out to change for...for food, and I heard the is over there, so I went back quick to throw down...in the ghetto, to throw down the things because I knew he is...the...is very strict over there....to throw down. We came back. He...Well, he says, Where you go?" I told, "To my group. Here is my group." He gave me with the...with the whip over the...over the face and...and...and he said, "Stay. Stay here with your sister." So we stand...and we knew we will get 25 because he gave 25 and in Europe nobody was wearing pants. No girl was wearing pants, only skirts. And he picks up the skirts and on the...on the...on the silky panties he gives 25 with the whip. When he gave me the 25 I went to him and begged him not to hit my sister. She is only 14 years old. She will not be able to take it, the 25. I was biting my...my lips not to scream, not to give him the satisfaction when he was hitting me, but then I went to him and I kissed his hand and I begged him, "Hit me once more and don't hit my sister." But they kept me by the wall and they started to hit my sister. Then I was screaming to get off my sister, but my sister didn't get 25 because every whip she was so young, a child 14 years, every whip was with blood. So he gave her...and she...she told me just last week, she had only six. I didn't know how many, but..but she had only six times. But we couldn't sit a long time later. And she...she was laying always, when she went in bed, she was laying on the...on the belly. But the next day, we had to go...we had to go off anyway to work, so we went to work every day. And by the work we were hit too. One time a hit me. Good I had a coat because it was winter.

So he hit me with his cane, so he broke on me the cane in few...in few pieces. And...and then he called me to the office and he says, "Tomorrow you will have to bring me other cane because I broke the cane. If not I will...I will kill you tomorrow." So the whole...when I came back to the ghetto, the whole ghetto was looking the cellars and the...for a cane to bring me the cane and... because...and they brought me about 10 canes.

So beautiful, some of them were silver things what the people left what they were sent away..to give him and I gave him the whole thing...10 canes because he broke on me the cane. Such things! They degraded us so, I was not caring anymore, but I promised my mother that I will take care the rest of my family so I...I didn't care to be killed already.

Then... then my brother, my last brother, was sent away. And this brother...and this brother what I saved his life, he came one time home and he says, "Mina, I heard...I heard that they will go to...to liquidate woman in ghettos. I will not let myself anymore tear apart. That's it. We are enough teared apart. We will run away, but I have to look for you for a place because with girls I can't run without a place. So he went out. He took 2 weeks til he came back. I was thinking they killed him already because he took off the band and everything and he went to look for a...he with his boyfriend. They were both Yeshivas... Yeshiva boys, but in this time, they didn't wear already the , nothing. They went and they found a place so we...we took...we... the day what we had to go away

to...we were to meet outside, uh..outside ""Jawiszowice, we told him one this place we will meet. So we stood first my sister from the...from the...when we went from work, then I, and my brother from other place, we met over there...uh...in...in this place where we told we will meet and we went night time over there. This was near Tyczyn. This means Tyczyn was our town, and where they found the place, it was in a village, but it was...by our...more walking distance from our town from Jawiszowice, about 3 hours walking.

They found it a place by a...by a goy what he five children and they were very poor. And this time wasn't...wasn't law that if somebody keeps Jews, they get killed together with the Jews, but we promised him to give him every month nice money. They made with him arrangements and for the food what he will give us, they...uh...knew he will pay him whatever he spends. So we...uh...but they were in the other place, the 2 boys. We were in one place, but they were waiting til they will make for us a bunker. They made for us a bunker. They made for us a bunker from the stable to go down on a ladder. How they were working, you can't imagine to take out so much ground from over there. The stable was outside. The...the...uh...the bunker was outside, but the walking in was to the stable inside. So it was a bunker what we couldn't...uh...uh...walk straight only put down, and they made a bench over there to be able to sit a whole day and for night time when the children will go to sleep, they will let us out to the stable to sleep. And the stable was...I wrote about this too a poem and in the diary too...and my brother and this boy were an hour walking distance through the forest. When they...they had the other place. When they came to visit us once a month I told them don't go. You can be caught. He says Germans are not here. And we go only when it is not the moonlight. It is...when it is the dark light we go through the...nobody will find us. They came to us three times. The third time they were caught by the Poles, by 19 Poles. And they beat them up so badly. My brother, they cut...they cut the throat, but they didn't kill him... only little he was cut. And the beat him so up that he will black blue old...old. And I know they caught him only 5 minutes from us...not 5 minutes...5 minutes from us they started to chase them the two boys, but they run in the opposite way because they didn't want bring them to our place so they were caught only...only 10 minutes from us. The boy, the boyfriend of...of my...of my brother, he...he'll...they...they throwed out his eye...his eye was hanging over the face and they were chained to take to the Gestapo. And the Gestapo they...later I found out, that on the Gestapo, the Poles, the 19 Poles, told that they have some place two sisters because they knew us because they came to our store to town...to the town from the villages. They knew that my brother has two sisters. Over there, they were tortured to...by the Gestapo, to say where the sisters are. Sure they will not tell because we are alive. And then they...they were token...take to be killed. To tell you about the...the bunker, we didn't have air to. It was lack of oxygen. We had a carbide lamp, but a little light over there couldn't light nothing. Not...not a candle, because it was not oxygen enough. Only the carbide. They goy what he kept us. They are such anti-semitic goy, but they were very religion goys. They...they...uh...they said they charged us so much money and they gave us so little food. And my sister one time she...she got fever. Two weeks she couldn't recognize me even. She was talking from the fever and we were under the ground in this...in this bunker and from night time we went down up to the stable to sleep and over there was a cow...a cow and a...and a goat and a...and chickens and rabbits and we were sleeping on a bundle of straw. When the children went to bed and they will not know that we are over there. He was...was so awful to us. this goy. He was starving us, and he was

telling us, "You ate enough. When I came to your store the...the chickens and just everything, the smell that came Friday, the with this everything, this smelled so nice.

Now you will little bit starve. You will be humans. We knew that he can kill us. Nobody will know even. So we told him because he was a very religion Christian, we told him that after the war we will change to Christianity. And we were thinking future Christians he will not kill. He is a religion. They went every Sunday. They went to the church. Once a month he went to...to confession. But the confession in teaching the...the...the church wasn't teaching. The...the priest wasn't teaching. He told them he has two...two...two girls, Jewish girls that he asked who are they. Glucksman. They will convert to...because we were Glucksman from home. They will convert to Christianity. He knew that my father's daughters will never change to Christianity. So he told him so. When you make a crime, you will be forgiven. But if you five innocent plans will go from this world, you will be always in Hell burning. We didn't know what he told him, but when he came from this confession, we saw he is very angry and "Go to . I don't want you Jews and this and this." I told him, "Listen, we didn't come to you with a gun to take us. We don't have where to go. Ghetto is already liquidated because the ghetto was few...few weeks later when we are run away, ghetto was liquidated. They make one grave and the 2,000 were killed over there in...in this grave and the the goy came, this goy came and he said the grave is moving up and down three days already because it was probably over there Jews already what...what they were still alive there buried. And just 4 weeks later, my father's cousin, 32 years old and his wife and children, 3 or 4, this I don't remember, were caught by the...by the Poles to they were hiding. They even didn't go. I didn't know that they didn't go in the ghetto because it was such a mishmash in this ghetto. Who...who...only the nearest family, you knew where they are. And this was my father's cousin. So, they...they caught him. They hit him and the little girl said to the mother...she was 8 years old...because they got married very young. So she says to the mother, "Don't cry. We will go. We will not suffer anymore in this hole. We will go to Heaven when they kill us." So the goy" came home to me and he said, "They will not go to Heaven. They are Jews.

They are not Christians. They will go to Hell, not to Heaven." They were laughing at this, but the little girl told...she...she was the comforting the father and mother.

Q: Okay. You can go back to the story now. You said...you were saying you thought you would go out to be killed with your brother.

A: When he was...they were taken to death, I knew everything. It is now on? I knew everything what is going on because they came every minute to tell us what is going on with my brother. And...and we want to go. My sister says. "Let's go. Let's go and be killed here. Anyway we will not live. Let's be killed together with them." So I told her, "Sabina", You know what they will do us? We are girls. They will rape us and they will...and they will dirty us up and then they will take us to the...to the Germans to be killed." But we were going out from our minds. I was thinking something we have to do to occupy...the whole time when we were over there, I taught her everything what I remembered because she had only 6...6 public schools finish, and then she couldn't go anymore because the war started. She was 12. So I taught her everything by memory what I remember...what I remembered and I tell her stories and I told her... make up stories to tell her to occupy her. She was sick 2 weeks and she didn't...couldn't...she

couldn't recognize me and I couldn't even take a doctor...nothing... because we were...so I...like here, it's aspirin. Over there, it was other name of this. I sent him for the aspirin, and I begged him, "Make something warm for her. Something because they cooked for us potatoes, and they gave us for a whole day over there to the whole over there the potatoes and...uh...and...uh...she couldn't swallow this. She was sick. So one time I went...when we were up in the..in the...so I was thinking I have to... meat...we didn't have the whole time...they were starving us. We paid much money, and they were starving us. So I told her, "Sabina, I have something to do. Something to give you." She said, "I can't swallow.

I can't swallow the potatoes." And I was think she will die over there. I went upstairs and they were chickens and chickens...little chickens. So I was thinking, I will kill one chick.

One chick for her. So L...I...I never killed nothing in my life, so I took a stone and L...and I hit the chicken over the head and I killed the chicken and I went in the...in the bunker and I over there, I made from...from tooth no...uh...polish...polish...shoe polish, from...from the deck, I made with a virus...and I cleaned up the kitchen..the chicken. I cleaned up the chicken. I cleaned up the bones and I buried over there inside in the ground and over there we had always wore it sometimes dripped from the walls. It dripped from this, so we had always wore this. So I cleaned this up, and I cut up little pieces and I put over ... I put little pieces in little water. It was so hygiene. Don't ask. And I made this for her. Then she started to fight with me. If you will not eat, I will not eat. So I told her, Sabina, I ate..I ate the potatoes. I couldn't tell her that I wouldn't be able to take this in my mouth because I killed this. It was...my hands and feet were shaking when I killed this chicken.

So...but I had to save her life somehow. So I made her the whole chicken. I cut up in little pieces and I made it over the carbide lamp so to give her something. And...uh...this and one time...one time, she passed out because we didn't have air to breath. Sometimes we had "hair black, hair black even from lack of oxygen so I saw she is passing out because when he..when he...when we went to the..uh...to the bunker, it was a little thing to pull through, a little opening, and he put on this dirt on a little dirt and then a big stone and I saw that she will pass out when I don't get some air in. So I went...1 went...I went on the ladder. I couldn't pick up my hand because it was very narrow to go in. I went on the ladder and with my head. I don't know how I did...the stone was maybe by | yard big and by a half yard. How I did this I don't know. I don't know til now. When...when...in..uh.. I pulled off the stone and I came for her. I dragged her over the ladder, up to the and I closed quick the door from the...from the stable because there were laying children around back and forth in the hallway. And I dragged her up to get some air. She came to herself. And he came in. He saw the door is closed so he knocked on the door. And he saw us. How you went out? Who helped you to take off the stone? So I told him, "Jesus helped us. Don't you know? Jesus helped us. He...he was sorry we didn't have with what to breath. He was sorry. He helped us. He told us go out." This was such a primitive goy.

He believed in this, you know. He believed that it is impossible a human-being should be able to pick this up alone. So he..he..uh...he was very dumb. He didn't know how to write and read. When he came from this concentration, I saw that this taught him something and this also small town. He knew my father and Saturday he went with that with the garden with the to the synagogue with beard and . He knew. He saw him going to the synagogue. So...so he knew that his daughter will never...that we fool him only. So he told him this, but he didn't tell me what he told the...I knew that something he felt. And understanding that, you see, understanding that the Russians went back and forth with 6

months to fight, so back and forth they moved back, and they started to come nearer. And when they started to come nearer, he started to be good with us. So I told...and I knew it was coming the second time the...soon he will go to other confession. It is almost...almost a month. So I told him, "Tell me the truth. What priest told you. I know you came very hungry from the priest, from the confession. He told me what I want and he didn't make up these words because he wouldn't know how to compare his children to five innocent plants. He wouldn't be able this to...to compare so I knew this not his words. He told me...I with my sister looked at us..at each each other and we..we thought...how it is possible he told them to kill. He will go the second time. He will see he doesn't understand that crime will be forgiven and you five innocent...uh...will go from this world because of these two Jewish girls, he will be always in Hell. He will go second time. He will tell him he will see that he didn't understand. So I told him listen I will tell you...he bought us...uh...the...uh... Jesus. We were waiting this Jesus. He bought us this.

We had to pay him for this but we were worrying. We didn't have a choice. So he...I told him...Listen go to other priest, to the other confession. We will see they are both sons of God...the both...every...every...everyone is a son of God. So go...go to other...to other town. Over there I knew they don't...the priest at least doesn't know my father because it was the other town. And it was the same direction. He listened to me. He went and he brought us back rosaries and books and I...we had to pay for this...and..the...the... priest will come to convert us right now after the war. Now he can come and God but the..the...right now after the war he will come to convert us. Okay. I didn't believe that we will live until after the war. But after my brother died...after they killed him, I saw that we will go out from our mind so I told myself, we have something...I have something to occupy my sister. I have something to do. So I told him to buy copy books. He bought the copy books and we started to write a diary. That's why I have a diary. We were under this ground 20 and a half months, hiding, in terrible conditions. I had this in the diary written down. We had to work too. Sometimes they gave us work and we had to work. But we made from our old things what we had hidden..old things, we made from...from...uh...pillow cases for this we made some scarves and I told him that I want dye. For what? I want to make myself some dresses, me and my sister. So he..he says, "Who sees you." But we had always, you see, in Europe, you didn't wear cotton dresses.

You wear all silk or wool and when we go down from the ladder, up and down, it tears the dresses. It was delicate. It tears. So we had to have something from...from cotton.

So...from sheets, we made something so I told him we havse to make myself...ourself, two dresses, cotton dresses. So I..1...I told him...we sewed this by hand with machine stitches but by hand, so we told him to bring us dye. So he says, "What you need dye?

Who will see you?" But we were like for ourself buy...buy us 10 package this dye. I gave him money. He bought. So I told, "I don't like this color. Buy me red." He bought me red.

I had put together few...few colors so I started to make for sale because I saw the money will go soon out. We didn't have a fortune. We have to do something. We started to make skirts, " skirts. No, the wear to the churches, they wear over scarves, brown scarves. We started to make from "dommers. It was like a design. We started to make scarves to sale.

We started to make all kind of things for him to sale and we...we dyed this. Over there in the...in the bunker camp because we had enough water over there. We sometimes had to take off some buckets of water from over there because it would...it would cover us the water. So...so...we...we...we couldn't dry this in this stable. We couldn't dry this in the

bunker because it will never dry. We dried this under us when we went to sleep...under us on the straw with our bodies. This was our life for 20 and a half months. To tell you the...the...that deaths...how many deaths I saw in the...in the...in the ghetto in my eyes killed, how they teared out children from the mother's hand and they throwed to the German shepherds, how the... This was in the ghetto before... before we went over to . It was by ten or maybe more in the...in the with little , they were someplace in a barrack.

They were taken every day to work. We were then working on the railroad tracks because the railroad was bombed that we had to put new railroad tracks and this boys had to pick up this. It was terrible. There were already orphans because parents were already sended away. They were hungry. And one fell and the Gestapo kicked him between the feet. And I went to him and I want to give him my...my lunch what I took with me. He says, "I don't want. I want my mommy, my daddy." And I hurt so much. He hit me. It hurt so much. He kicked me. I don't know what they did to him. He couldn't stand up. In a while his voice disappeared. Probably sent away or killed, I don't know. They were someplace in the barrack. It was a time when they want to barrack us, our group. When we were in the ghetto, in the barrack, my brother's group we ran away from the ghetto. We run away.

We didn't want to be in the barracks, barracked. We run away, and then later we came back because we didn't have a place to be. It was terrible. We looked everyday the dead in the eyes. I can't tell you everything what was going on because it would take til tomorrow. But I...I tell you only fragments from this. It was a little boy 9 years old. Ina ghetto she was 12 years old. They were left alone. They were working together with us.

And it was...it was...uh... before we ran away. It was the...the...one time the little boy worked with us. We had to work very fast. I had to work for my... because my sister was also not so strong. She was 14 then already, but 14 years she was looking like 9 years.

And she couldn't work so hard...so I had so fast, so I had to quick for her and quick for me for her not to be beaten up. This boy was beaten so much by them and he called his sister, "Blanca. Blanca. Save me." It was terrible things what I saw. And...and then...then... uh...he was beaten up, but then "Blanca went to the "Reichmaster, and she asked him, "Please let my brother go. Don't hit him. Hit me." It was such a devotion.

Everybody would give life for the other person. And then it was...uh...it was also, we were working by the, you know, when the...when you take rolling thing, what they put in clay, and this to pick up with wet clay...it was such a...it break down down the person.

And we had to work this. For many, it was difficult. When you roll this already there's a cable to pick this up, and I had to pick up for my sister and for me and when we went over there it was the builders. They were Pollacks. And they say, "Quick work you...they called us awful name...quick work anyway you go from morning late to the...to the ovens.

I didn't believe that they are putting in the ovens people. I was thinking the anti"Seminites, they called us" names, such low names, and work quicker quicker. Or one time it was , , so we brought the men what he looked after...over us, we brought him a trench...a beautiful trench coat, and we gave him to let us little bit early home on Yom Kippur on..in Russishooner. You know what he did. Because he took the trench coat, but because he knew that we want to go early, he kept us a whole day, a whole night, and a whole day. We had to work 36 hours, 36 hours because...because we gave...gave...he knew that...and it was a Ukranian. He was Ukranian. Also they were wearing black things. How many times we were beaten up. One time...one time...this was before we run away from the ghetto, I went out with my sister and we...we went... uh...and my brother

was still over there, and he had to give us nighttime, he will come under the ghetto and he will give us packages to take out because we planned to run away. To take out to hid over there, to one..un....to one Polish family. They were very good with us. Before the war they were...they were teachers. They came to our store to buy. So we came under the ghetto...it came two, three...yal, three...uh...no, it was...this...uh...soldiers, and they say, "What you are doing here under the ghetto?" And they search us and I had a pound butter to give to my brother, and I say I came to sell butter to the Jews. He says...what...when he is in our window was going out, it was big wall, but our window from the ghetto went out to the Irish side, you know. And...and I saw my brother sitting over there withthis boy, sitting over there, and they say, "What you have to come?" I told he had to come here 10 o'clock at night to buy for us. So he says, "When they will not come, you will be killed.

So we know that you are a liar." So I told, "Yes. He will come. He told he will buy from us. He went to work. He told he will buy from us." So...so he says, "Not in this window.

Maybe this Jew will buy from you." And I knew...my brother will come out because he will expect that we are knocking, so" I told, "I don't know this Jew. How I knock to this window. I don't know this Jew." So he knocked. I saw my brother through the gate. I saw he is coming out. So I started to scream Polish to him, "I don't know this Jew. What you want from me. I don't know this Jew." So I want my brother to know not to come to the...to hear my voice, that we are in trouble, that he will not come to the gate because he will be right now killed. So...so he knew already that we are in trouble. In the meantime, he says, "Oh, you spoiled everything." He gave me a slap in face. "You spoiled everything because you are screaming. He would come here and buy this. You are screaming. You spoiled everything." So..I..I told, "But I don't know this Jew." And I screamed again for him good to hear not to come to the gate. Then I hearrf, they...we make believe we don't understand German, but I hearded, they told they will take us some place in a...in a...in a...a empty house and they will rape us. Oh, my God! So L...1 told...I...it was a older German between them. It was two young German and one older. I went to him and I...and I start to cry and I say, "Let us go. My mommy will...will over there think it's so late. Please let us go. Let us go because my mommy will over there worry. My mommy and daddy...my mommy and daddy was already in the gas chambers, but I told this because we made believe that we are Christians. So he said...so the older...the older German somehow had because I started to cry, because I was thinking...I knew what they are going to do to us. He had some...they are thinking that we are Christians. He had some this, and he started to talk with them quiet and they let us go.

First they put a revolver to us. They will kill us because the Jew didn't show up and this.

And we were thinking it better to be killed than raped. And then..then...they let us go.

The let us go. My God. We didn't...couldn't believe they will let us go. So how many times I had a revolver to my...to my heart with my sister. It was about three, four times already. And...and somehow... and I always, when they had the revolver, I told always my mommy, , save us. Always my mommy I called. I don't know. I never called and this time, it was times that I didn't believe in God. It was times that I was thinking it is impossible that it can be a God and can see this everything what happened to us and not to do something about. And the Germans had on the buckles, they had written. This means, "God is with them." You know! So I was thinking maybe they are right. God is with them, not with us. And...and...uh... so... so I was..the...I was thinking...sometimes I was not believing. Sometimes...oh...when I called save us in Jewish, always to my

mother, in my mind I was talking only Jewish. That's why I wrote when I wrote that poem to my mother, I was always writing Jewish, not Polish. The...the...the diary I was writing in Polish, but..but..when I talked to my parents through this, I write...wrote also the poem in Polish...in Yiddish. So I told save us. And somehow we were saved. So..I still...I again believe my mother is watching us. And it was times that it was like a miracle happened that I started again to believe. But it was times that I were...I was not believing, not believing in nothing. How we were liberated, now I will tell you. We were 20 and a half months in this hell over there, in this hole. They wre terrible. We made believe that we have a gun so them to be a little bit scared. They never went to bunker because they were scared that it will cave in. And one time it...my brother was still alive...it started to cave in. Because over us was like...like two yards of...of ground, and it was 2 weeks before my hus...my brother was killed. It started to cave in and...and...uh...but then my brother and this boy, they support us with wood...with wood and later night time...we didn't go in the morning to the bunker because it would not be safe. And this was only 2 weeks before they were killed. They were working so hard.

They save...they save us, but they went to death only because of us. Because when they wouldn't come to visit us, they wouldn't be caught and they wouldn't be killed. But because of us, and I begged him, "Don't go." I was happy to see... to see them. But I was scared that they will be...every time when they left, I was only listening what the will bring and they wasn't caught. And they were caught. The third time when they came they were caught...caught. So they were only 3 months hiding and they were caught. And so we started the diary to write. And my sister not one time told me, "I want...I wish...I wish the Germans would find us and kills us already. For what we live?" " February, we will not live through. And sometimes she throwed the...the... diary, and she said, "For what I am writing. What they will use. They will kill us. We will...we will never be free from here. They will kill us. What they will do with this? They will use this for toilet paper." But I encouraged her again because I knew when not we will get crazy. One time... (end of tape 2, side A) Beginning of Tape 2, Side B. You know the Germans are running, and they are burning houses. You want to go to because we are going away to the forest. You want to go with us. And I was scared because you see I didn't know the Poles over there, the farmers. But they knew us because they came to this store. And they..they...they knew us, but we didn't know them because we were not staying in this store. So I was scared.

We were scared to go out, but...but...uh...they told they will...they will burn the houses when they are running away. So we went. We put on scarves for them not to see us, and we...we went. It was dark. It was in the forest". And we were over there about 2 hours.

We heared the Germans talking and running. And then we went back over there in the...in the stable. One time we saw that he doesn't cover us because right now in the morning he covered us. Over there we had to go in the...in the bunker and he covered us. And he doesn't cover us. It is already day time. I hear the children running over there on the hallway and I thought: What is it? We looked out. In the stable was a small window maybe by..by 8 inches...a small window and I looked. From far away I saw...I saw over there a soldier, and I saw there's another German. Must be Russians. Russians must be here already. And he doesn't tell us because he wants to convert us. So...uh...went to the...to the crack from the door, you know, and he came out from the...we saw him coming out from his room. We knocked on the door and we told him...told him, "Why don't you cover us? It's day light." So he says...he says, "What do you..uh..what is so..."

"Why you didn't tell us the Russians are here." So he says, "So what. So what. So go.

You want to go." So I told, "I will not go because I will not put you in danger." Because the...uh...the Russians...the Germans can come back and the Poles will know where we were, and you're fine innocent...innocent plans will go from this world because of us so I don't want to put you in danger. And really I wouldn't go out because I didn't know...1 came over there in night time. I never was over there before the war. It was not in town. It was no village. I wouldn't know where to go. In the day time, when I go, the Pollacks will lall...kill us off anyway. They killed after the war. They killed many Jews with nobody knows where. So I made him so scared that he put us..."So what you want to do. How you want to go out?" So I told him, "Listen, put us for the day time over there in he called this in the hole. Put us in the hole. The bunker he called hole. Put us in the hole for the day time. In night time, take...take...uh...the wagon with the horses, put full straw on this and we will go under this straw and you will uncover us when you see the Russian Army.

So he says...he says, "Okay." He got very scared. So in night time, he did so. We...we went under the straw...in the...in the...on the wagon with full straw. He took us back and we heard still in Jawiszowice fighting because we heared the...uh...how they fight Germans with the...with the..-with the Russians. And I...he went back over there to the Russian Army. Over there in this town, I knew I have a teacher what she taught me and she was not Jewish, but she taught me when...when I was in...in public school. So I told, "Take us to . We went over there and she said, "Oh Mina, how you look! My God, when your father and mother sees you...because we were yellow green...20 and a half months, we didn't see the air. We were starved over there. So...uh...uh...she says, "When you mother and father stays out from the grave and they see you." And I was thinking why she tells me there're in the grave. Maybe they are still alive. Maybe we will meet. I still hoped that we will meet somebody. They went only to...because we were in the ghetto.

We didn't know what was going on over there. We didn't have mail. We didn't have papers. We didn't know what was going out without the ghetto...out from the ghetto. So she says, "But I can't keep you." I told to let me...to let us be over night. She says, "I can't because on our...on my garden, the "Partisan, the Polish Partison, they killed six Jews and I will not be a witness. They would come right now to kill you and they find out you are Jewish...I have Jewish." I was thinking she was a anti-semite. That's why she doesn't want to take us. So the goy got very scared. So I told him, "Take us to the Russian Army." She he came to the Russian... He...he took us to the Russian Army and he... Over there, I came and I asked...I knew one word of Russian. . is Jew in Russian. So I told where is . I didn't know how to speak . I talked to them in Polish. So they told me . I came to him, a young boy in the 20s maybe. I came to him and I told him, "You can talk Jewish?" He says, "No." So I couldn't talk...uh...Russian, but the Russian in Polish in similar you know. So I told him that the Partisans, the Polish Partisans killed...is killing Jews when they see a survivor. So he was laughing at me. He says, "They work. They fight with us together." And I saw he is by name only a Jew, but he doesn't know nothing about Jews. I asked about...about.. then later.. over night I was already over in the office sitting because I didn't want to go out out in over there slipping over there. I heard what they did. The Russian "girls and the Russian girls soldiers and it is going over there terrible things. So I...I sit in the...in the office, and the office was light and he was over there. And he said, "Why don't you go to sleep?" So I told, "I don't like to sleep." And it was already second night we didn't sleep. I don't like to sleep. I want here to sit. And he

understood probably because he told something to the...over there to the Captains, and they were laughing. He understood why we don't want. In the morning, I went to look for a Red Cross and the Red Cross, Russian Red Cross and I asked again about "Avery and they showed me a . I went to her and she knew Jewish because she was already in the 40s. And she told me how I know you are not German spies. I can't keep you. I told her so. You look German spies. Like we. Look at us. So she didn't believe. I told her the German "Meldacot. I had the "medacot. I showed her. No. She doesn't believe me. Then, it came to my mind I have my father and mother in the powder case. I showed her. This is my father and my mother. Look good and you will see. I look like my father and my sister looked like my mother. Look good. Under the beard you can't see, but I have deep set in the eyes like my father. And look and you will see resembles with my father. Then she believed us. She kept us over there. She kept us over there 8 days, and then they started to pack and go farther. And they didn't want to take us with us because civilians they can't take. So we were walking to Jawiszowice. It was ...it was very far. But the 8 days by her, we came to us because they gave us good to eat and...and we were sitting on the porch to catch some air. And the Pollacks over there were watching so...watching us so and they told through the porch, "We will take you here. We will take you there." And I knew they wanted to kill us. Now...then I understood that the teacher told me the truth, that they kill Jewish survivers. And then I went with the Russian Army, we went to Jawiszowice, walking. They didn't want us taken on the trucks. They are not allowed. We were walking. When we came it was already day time. So we asked...we met a Jewish boy. I recognize he's Jewish. So I went..."You see some Jews. Because we were living...we were only the one Jews left." He says, "Yes, we took over a Jewish house , and we a house, and we...yal, over there 8 boys and you are the first girls what they show up." So we came over there. They gave us a room. And over there...uh...started to come in other survivers. Again a surviving, again it was already 12 boys, and then it came a family lived from east but they were also saved. And then I went to the family upstairs. It was dark. It went upstairs to the family because we took over the whole house, the Jewish apartment house. I went over there and...and I asked how they didn't meet my brother or somebody. Because I still hoped that somebody's alive. I knew already then from the boys, they...I knew they're just the gas chambers and I started to find out because some of them run away...was already saved, survivers from the...from the gas chambers from this.

So, L...L...L...then I met my husband. My husband was in uniform. He was fighting. He came from Russia because... He was from Krakow, but he...he was in Kristallnacht in Germany because they were in Germany living for awhile. So over there, he lost already the...the...his brother. He was 13 years. He lost...they...they put them in night time, the men, in this machine in the concentration camp so they started to run away. I think it...

They started to run away, and he lost...his brother was killed. When we came in 1938, in 1939 came the Russians...the Germans marched in, so he runned to Russian. And that's why he came with the Russian Army. And...and then we met, and...and...and then...I...he...from then he came every time from his base to...to see me, and...and then he wants to marry me. So it wasn't a Rabbi. Then it came out a Rabbi from under the ground. He was hiding someplace, and we had 4 sticks and a blanket,...uh army blanket.

On the top this was our . A ring a boy friend gave me, a silver ring to married me. and so we married. But he, after we married, he was few months and then I got pregnant and they sent him to the worsiest fight on the . I was thinking now I have a sister...my sister

was sick because she couldn't walk. She had arthritis from under the ground. I pregnant.

My God, what will be here! We were scared to go to our hosue. It was only 8 kilometesr from our house, and we were scared to go that they will kill us, because they killed many Jews after the war, the Pollacks. After the liberation! So we were scared to go to our house. Uh...we had over there, 15 kilo silver, over there under the ground. My daddy...uh...buried this under the ground, but I never went to take this. I was scared. And then...then they made a pogram in...in... I will not tell you everything because I want to sell my grandparents" house and then we were in danger so we gave up and..and then...then I started to...because we had to live...we had to make a living...I started to go with my sister to to make a living. I was left alone. My husband was in the army over there fighting someplace and I was pregnant and this.

Q: Linda wants you to tell the story.

A: Huh?

Q: To tell the story. What happened? You said you didn't want to tell the story. She wants you to elaborate.

Q: Yal. So...so in the meantime, the Pollacks when we were on the way from they made a pogram of Jews, of the few Jews. They put under the...under the synagogue. They put 8 dead children and they say we killed . The 8 dead children didn't have no parents. They didn't...after this, they found out that the children were circumcized. They were Jewish children. They probably...the parents left them to...to save them, but the Pollacks, they saw the parents don't come back. They killed them. They put under the synagogue. They say...they say we killed them for and they made a pogram. So we didn't come back anymore to Jawiszowice. We left over there the things what we took back because my husbnad...my husband went with me before he was sent away, he went with me to take back some things what we gave to hide before the war to the Pollacks. So I left over there the things and we didn't go back anymore. And then we went to Krakow. In Krakow, uh...they gave me a very nice apartment because my husband was a officer so they gave us a very nice apartment, me with my sister. And my sister started to go over there in gymnasium. And in one year, she made all four gynmnasium. She..she was so good.

Probably I gave her something from myself, what I...I gave her by my...only by my memory, but probably it was left and she had a very good memory. And she graduated before in | year. In the meantime, I gave birth to my boy and I didn't know it was already after the war when I gave birth. It was 2 months after the war, 2 and a half months, and I still didn't know whether my husband is alive or not. Because from the Russians you can't find out. I came and I told, "Is my husband alive?" He was in this and this ? They say, "How you know he was in this ?" So I started to be scared to tell cause my husband told me, but I...I will not tell because these Russians, they can...they can, so I...1...I didn't...1...I was thinking I told...so they didn't want to tell me. When I gave birth, I gave birth in my home because I was scared to go to the hospital because it was so over there not clear who was whose is this. They can kill me or they can kill... And it was anti-Semitic over there, the Pollacks and this... So I gave birth in my home, but you see about 8 months because I was working very hard taking...to make a living for me, for my sister, so I was

taking heavy suitcases. I take on consisgnments. I took things and took on the markets to sell and...and in night time, I felt that the water goes away and I didn't know because it was my first baby. And befoer I met over there a woman and she was also a Pearlberger. I was thinking this is a...a relative to my husband, and I was very...and she was with 2 children left and she didn't have a...a apartment and I told come to me and you live with me. I have 2 rooms. | will take with my sister 1 room and I will give you the other room.

Because I was thinking she's a...a...a relative to my husband, and it's not I cared about the rooms. So I told bring your. And somehow I don't stop. I was thinking I am urinating. I didn't stop to urinate, so she says, Mina, you have to give birth and you are only 8th month pregnant. So I told, "What you mean?" So she says, "Yes. Call your doctor." The doctor was a Jewish doctor, but I went to him when I...in 7th month I went to him for a checkup. And his hand was shaking because he was 6 years hiding under the ground. He got married with his...with the what she saved him. He lost the family also. He asked me if I have money to pay him. I told yes and I didn't. Because I was scared to go to the hospital. But I... was thinking a Jew even with shaking hands, but he will not kill me or the baby. So my boy was born on a kitchen table 3 days and 3 nights with anethesia, without nothing. He took with...and he told me, he was so brutal, this doctor. The war made him so brutal or something. He says, "Oh you will live or the child will live. You have a choice. So I told him this, "I survived Hitler and I will survive this too. Just save my baby." Because I don't know whether he has a father. Let the name at least be." Because my husband lost the whole family. Let the name at least be. Just save my baby.

So he was saved. He was born 4 pound baby. They couldn't....they couldn't...uh...a month after he was born, no 2 weeks after he was born, it came the first letter from my husband because he left me in Jawiszowice. He wrote to Jawiszowice. The letter was going from one Jewish community to the other til he came...till the letter came. I was 2 weeks already laying flat in bed, and the doctor was angry with me that I don't pay him. And I told him, "I don't have, but I was scared to go in hospital so I didn't go in hospital because I was scared." But...uh...then after 2 weeks, I found out that my husband is alive, that the boy has already. I couldn't circumcise my boy because he was only 4 pounds. The didn't want to circumcise him. So, and then it came out ruptures because he was crying very much at night time and then in day time, so...so it came out the ruptures, and the didn't want...he had already the weight, but what he has to have to be circumcised, but he didn't want circumcised because of the ruptures, so when I find out my husband is alive at least, and I... let him know because he is thinking I will have soon the baby, because the baby was born before the time. Then I wrote him a letter. I knew already where he is stationed. I wrote him a letter the baby is already...is already here. He was born about 8 months and to come to see him. He went over there to... They made him a mayor in a...in a city over there. It was on the border of the Germans because they...they...they were already...the Germans were already defeated. So, he...he wrote me that I will...I will come soon, because the letters were very long going. As soon...write me, they don't want let me go...write me that...uh...you are dying, that maybe to a dying wife they will let me go, but the Russians, they are high rank Russians. He went to him and he showed him, "I wrote him a telegram that I am dying...that your wife is dying. Come to see. Because I want him to see the baby and the baby was already 2 months old and he didn't see the baby. And it was after the war. He was born after it was already 4 months after the war. So..so he went this telegram, and he says, "Let her drop dead, the wife. It's many wives in the world." So

he went. He went without...without a release, he went to Krakow to see me. And he was scared to go out in night time because...in daytime because he was...he didn't have no papers, or lease papers, he will be killed, but he want to see the baby. He want to see me.

But then later, he...we paid the doctor. He tried to...to make some money, pay the doctor, because he was on my head. And then..then...uh, after the baby was 3 and a half months so we moved over there where he was stationed, and over there we were for a while.

And...uh...then we waited til the baby...and it was very danger because this 19 Poles what they killed my brother, they were looking for us to kill us because they knew that...that we know the names. And...so they were looking for us and we knew this and from our town, one...one goy" came and he saw us and he recognized us, "Oh. You are here. You are alive?" And we were scared he will tell over there, but we couldn't move. The child was....we want to run away from Poland. My husband was already released from the army, but...but the...we...we were scared from the Pollacks that they will go... In the meantime, pogram they made Jews. They killed many Jews over there, and a young couple what they just got married, they killed. And you see, they were stopped right away, but...by the Russians, but in the meantime, they managed to kill quite few...quite few. It wasn't so many, but they couldn't stand it that we are still alive, that a few of us left. And...and then they...uh...we were waiting til my son will be | year old that we will be able to...to go because we had to go out from Poland illegal. They could not let us, the Russians, go and they know we are Polish Jews. So it was organization, Jewish organization, what they came and they tell us that we will be able to go like...like Greek Jews, not to talk on the border, not to...uh...because we...not to show that we know Polish, so we smuggled one year old baby, we had a cottage. Aw, I didn't tell you even that my girlfriend from my town and she...because in every Jewish community we registered. We registered. I am Mina Pearlberger from home, Mina Glucksman from Tyczyn, daughter of Nafstali and Hanna Malkak Glucksmann so if somebody comes from the family, they came to the Jewish community and they { H see that somebody's left, you know, and this way we can find each other. We are still hoping that my brother will show up. Not this what was killed by the Poles, but the other. He was such a healthy boy that maybe he survived. Still hope...hope that some cousin will show up...some...some... So we registered. So...my girlfriend, she saw me registered over there.

She came to me in Krakow before I went to my husband, and she...she brought me...she stayed with me, and she brought me this carriage for the baby. Because when not, I was carrying him on the hand because I didn't have...I had on my...such a long pillow, and I can carried him in the hand. And then...then I had this carriage. We went...we smuggled through the border and they they took us from over there to Czechoslovakia. From Czechoslovakia to...to Austria. Over there I made sketches and I made some...and my boy was still not circumcised because he had still the ruptures. And then he went... uh...my sister and my husband, my baby... (end of Tape 2, Side B Tape 2)

A: Okay. You can go ahead now.

Q: So, when we were smuggled through the...they told to throw everything what you have...every...every identification, every picture. I had pictures from my husband from the Army, and my husband says...he was very scared from the Russians. He says, "Throw away everything." I throw..threw away. But then he was not looking, I went back and I

found still his pictures. The "Milicots I didn't find anymore. They were already dirt the top all kind of things. I couldn't find them. But the diaries. I take my sister/s diary and I took and I hid under, before we went over the border, I hid this under the mattress of my baby, you know. My husband didn't know. And in my report got from the...from the...from the business school I...I saved still. And when we passed the border, I told him, "You know I have this." He says, "Are you crazy. When they catch us they would...they would sent us to Siberia state or they will kill us." So I told him, "But I saved." So he says, "My God. How nerve you have to save this." But I am glad I saved this. I have...from his Army I have many, but I brought only a few. And the pictures..from home this pictures from my family I have only from my aunt here. I would have this. I have my father and mother and my brothers. They had little small pictures from the "Milicots but I didn't have this pictures. Uh..So then...when we passed one time, it was...we were staying in this palace and they gave us...the Joint..over there took care in...in Austria of us. And they gave us..uh.."Farina for the baby, and he got so sick. So I went to the kitchen, to the Joint to ask for tea for my baby because he has...he is screaming...he has...so she said who told you the...the...from Joint...the woman, "Who told you to have a baby? "Who told you?" So I told her, "Are you married?" So she said, "No. Now I understand, but the baby is...is really sick and can't I have. It's after the hour and you can't get nothing. My husband got so angry. He took a chair from this palace what the chair is worth was probably I don't know much. He took this in pieces. He made fire in outside and he made for the baby bottle there. And I was still nursing the baby because I was nursing the baby til 50 months because I was scared I will not have what to eat for him and when we were going from Czechoslovakia to...to...to...uh.. Austria, it was like in a cattle train and I had to feed the baby. He was hungry. He was crying. And I was ashamed to...to nurse the baby...so many people. How I can do it? So my husband said, "My God. What you want the baby to die? You are ashamed?" So I told, "I will not nurse the baby. I can't." So over there was going from Hungarian also a couple and they were sitting near the wall...near the wall on the floor so they understood. They didn't understand Polish, but they understood that I am ashamed to..to nurse the baby, so they made me place...come here and sit down to the wall turn to the wall, and they gave me the...the place over there and from...then they say you sit here and they will sit in the middle. And from then we got to be very good friends. We came to United States. First over there to this displaced person camp. We...every time we said we are sisters so they wouldn't divide us. We want to be in one...in one...because they gave only one room for...for 2, 3 families. We want to be together so we were very good friend even in United States. So they gave us...one time they gave us to...when we came already to...to Germany, they put us in a...in a barrack.

They want us to go down to a barrack. So my husband says, "It is now our turn. How I can with a baby be in barrack...no in a tent. How I can go to a tent? Then to a barrack. He says, "With a baby in such a cold, how we can do...change the diapers and everything?" So...uh...in the meantime, my baby got...uh...we didn't want to go down from the train. In Germany we want to go to a room. We made a strike in the army...the American Army.

Over there was the USO...American Army...uh...so they took me the baby got 40 fever...40...102 fever, so they took me with the baby to a hospital in Frankfort and they want me the baby to live with them. And they...it's only for babies. I told, "I will not trust the Germans my baby." I will not trust my baby to the Germans. I want to be with my baby. So they couldn't...they...my husband was over there on the train, striking with my

sister. And then I...then they gave me a room in a hospital and he was crying and a doctor came and he asked me...and I want to go to...to...wash his diaper and when I went to go out, he started to cry. So...a doctor came in and he asked me, "Who is sick? You or the baby?" I told, "My baby." What he is...somehow he has a cold, so what you are doing in this hospital, this hospital. You imagine what the Germans did to me? Good the boy didn't let me go out. When I go out and I wash over there, I would...I took my coat. It was already so cold. I put it on the baby the coat and I was telling, "You murderers." I was screaming. "You German Murderers." Didn't you have enough to kill my whole family.

You want me to give a disease in... You put me in such a hospital to give me such a disease." I was screaming so. And "Give me back to Bergenhousen my husband. I don't want to be here. I don't trust you my baby. You...you killed my whole family. I don't trust you. I was so screaming that they were so ashamed because I was screaming so loud.

Everybody stand in the street and listen to so the Germans..was German already. So they put me on that truck, a open truck with the baby to go to Bergenhausen and Bergenhausen I came in and I was so glad that I didn't go to...that the boy didn't let me go to wash the diapers that I didn't touch something over there. And I told the story to my husband and he started to make fire it was like an iron...an iron...uh...stove. He started to make fire and the whole night and over there was Jewish doctors too because they came from Russian also...a Jewish doctor and she took care of the baby and he had bronchitis.

And...and they saved him. And...and...then...then...we were to the barrack for awhile.

They want us to send to a displaced person camp, and they want us to divide with this Hungarian so I told she is my sister. Nobody divide us in time from Hitler. You'll not divide us now. Because we were very good...we got to be in the traveling, we got to be very good friends. I didn't know them before". And...and then we were sent to near Darenstock, near...not far from Frankfurt. And over there we were in displaced person camp. Also in terrible conditions. In one room they put us in, they took from the Germans three rooms. One kitchen was not a kitchen, only a like little stoves...fire...electric stove, and the whole family...the whole 4 families have to use this little stove. No...no bathroom, no to take a bed. Nothing. One only... uh...ladies room for the whole family.

You imagine in such conditions they kept us 3 years. We registered in...registered to come to the United States because I know my father has here two sisters and I was so...I knew it must be cousins, and I was so hungry to have some family, to belong someplace.

Not to take some. I didn't tell even tell that I I have family to nobody because I didn't want to come to them to be a burden to them. Only to...to know that we belong something, that we have a family. In the meantime, in Germany my...my little boy got one operation on the...on the rupture and the other operation, then it was born...I got pregnant and I had a baby. Again, a boy baby. The baby was born with kidneys what they didn't work. They weren't sick, they were bad built, and he was living only 3 and a half months and he died over there. He was on the list to go to the United States too and we were waiting 3 years til they called our quota in terrible conditions over there. My sister started over there to go in College in Frankfort..in college for dentist for doctor dentist and...and she, in the meantime, they called us. She had already 2 years over there what the practice she had to leave behind. So when they called us to go to the United States, my boy...my...the boy died a month...a month before we were...we were called, and we...he was buried in Frankfurt and the last money we made for him a monument in Frankfurt and we came here to the United States without one penny. Without one penny!.

We came on the...my sister had...I had here in the United States a very rich cousin. This means she got married to a very rich man...to and...and he sended...for my sister he sended papers, so they knew that she is a family, but they didn't connect me later here in the United States with her. Only they sent for my...that she's coming. So I saw my...my...I recognized my aunt because they sended that pictures. I recognize one aunt and the uncle and I went to them and I told I am Mina Pearlberger and I am Nafstali's daugher. "" I saw they got scared. They were thinking we came on their shoulder you know. So I told don't worry. I talk to them in Jewish. Don't worry. Don't tell that you are my family cause the Joint will take care of me. I didn't have one penny for my boy. Five o'clock they let us down from the ship. So he couldn't eat. And they by the...we had...on the way, we had a storm. You can't imagine. It was terrible. The...the...I got sick and he...we had a storm and everybody had to put on the...the safety jackets and it was terrible that..uh.. And then I...I saw...I..I came and saw that they are scared and it hit me that they are scared. I knew why they are scared. A family comes and they were not rich. My aunt. And I was thinking, I told her, "Don't tell that you are my family because the Joint will take care of me." So...so then my boy was running around. He didn't eat nothing. Five O'clock he couldn't eat. And they told on the loud speaker whoever takes out food will be sent back to Europe. So I was thinking, scared to take out the food for him, and he didn't eat so early he couldn't eat so early. So I...I..uh..he was...It was already 2 o'clock and he didn't have nothing in his mouth. He was running away and excited. He was not quite 4 years old. He was excited, running around til. And...and they didn't... they want us to send to Portland, Oregon, and my sister in New York. And I told I will not let myself separate from my sister. And because this was really my sister and then til they settled til what, my husband went the first and the last time he went to the policemen. He couldn't talk one word of English. He showed them the boy. He took the boy by the hand. He showed him the boy and he showed some...showed something to drink for the boy. The policemen took out 25 cents and we never forgot this. And he gave... and my husband wants to ask him where to send back the address. He couldn't talk to him. And he gave...because he never took charity from nobody. And he..uh..we bought him a glass...a glass of milk, a container with milk and a roll from this money, but the roll he couldn't swallow because he was so dried up. Day before he ate. And he was after two operations, and the third operation, we made him the tonsils because he had tonsillitis often. Before we left, we made him the tonsil operation. So...and he...he couldn't eat nothing. He couldn't swallow anymore. So...And then they located us in the meantime in in...in Manhattan and they gave us $50 for the whole week to eat outside. How you can...my sister went to the over there, and I with my husband...how you can eat outside for $50 a whole week in the restaurants so...I... I bought a little cooker...a little cooker and I was...I went to buy some to make by myself food. It will not be enough in a restaurant to eat.

How we can live on this. My husband went out without language. He started to wash windows in Broadway. Windows in the stores. He talked to Jewish stores. He talked Jewish. And one...one lady in Broadway, she saw my boy and she says, "You need to a bicycle. I have a 3-wheel bicycle for him." And she gave him the bicycle. And then he went to look on signs and he saw Ballantine Beer. He went in over there and he asked: Who talks here. Polish. Russian. He knew the Russian too because he was in Russia 3 years, 4 years. So he says: Who knows Russia? Who knows Yiddish? Who knows Polish? Who knows German? So he... Owner was a Russian...so he started...a Russian

Jew...so he started to talk with my...so he said, "You have for me a job here? A janitor?

Okay. A Janitor.

Q: Mrs. Pearlberger, can we stop and do the pictures. They want to do the pictures. If you hold them up one at a time. Hold them right in front of you and the camera will be able to get a close up shot and explain who the people are.

A: I want to take this two pictures because this is my brother what was killed with this brother. This my brother and this the boy what was killed together.

Q: Right. Hold them up. You're covering up the face with that hand. No.

A: No. I want to make only these 2 because they were killed together in March 19 by the Poles. This is my brother, Hersh. Hersh Gluckman. And this is...

Q: Lower it. Lower it down.

A: And this is David "Leberwick.

Q: Okay you have to hold it still so they can focus. Down. Down. Right. Okay. You have to point it toward the camera a little bit. This way. You are covering the hand and they are getting a glare off the picture. Now. Just hold it still. Hold it just like that and talk about what you..

A And this boy in the uniform, in the soldier uniform, is David "Leberwick. He was killed together with my brother, Hersch and he on this next to him. He was killed together...caught by the Poles, and delivered to the Gestapo in 1943 in March.

Q: Tell us about the rest of the people.

A: Here is my two brothers. Nathan Nusea Glucksman and Hersh Gluckman. This my two brothers, my mother, and me when...this was before the war. This was only a few months before the war started in Krakow because we were then in Krakow and my mother came to...to visit us so we made a picture. She even didn't know that we are making the picture.

She is looking down and we winked to the photographer to make the picture. So this is the picture. Enough?

Q: Yes.

A: This is...

Q: Wait. We have to wait. They focus it first. Then..then they want you to start talking once they have got it focused. Okay.

A: This is...

Q: Wait. Wait. Sorry. Okay. Hold it just like that.

A: This is our town, Tyczyn. It is 3rd of May. It was the holiday of like here, 4th of July. It is over there the holiday of Pole, the liberation of Pole from the first war, so this is 3rd of May, the parade of 3rd of May. You have over there many Jewish children standing because it was in the middle of the town. It was over there a monument of a..over there was a speaker from the monument and everybody stand over there. Jews and not Jews, so you have here the picture of the...

Q: This was in what year?

A: This is 1937 or 38. This was before the war.

Q: Now Linda wants the picture with your parents in it. Okay. I'll tell you when you can speak. They need to focus first before you speak. Okay? Hold it just like that and speak now.

A: Now this is my parents and one of my brothers, Hersh, and my sister when she was a small...a small child. This was before the war. She was then...it must be in 19...because she was then about 6, 7 years old so it must be...because she was 12 when the war started...so I am over there sitting on the floor. My father, my mother and my one brother, still in her Hasidic uniform and our home and our garden over there. And our store is there, but my brothers stay so that he covers the entry to the store.

Q: Good. Thank you very much.

Conclusion of Interview.