Document

MATILDA "JUNE" BAKKER October 7, 2013

Q: This is a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Mrs.

Matilda Bakker, who goes by the name of "June Bakker," on October 7th, 2013, in

Catonsville, Maryland. Thank you very much, Ms. Bakker, for agreeing to speak with us

today. I'm going to start this interview at the very beginning. As I explained a little bit

earlier, we conduct interviews with people about their entire life story. So I'm going to

start at the beginning by asking you your name at birth, your date of birth, and where you

were born.

A: Okay.

Q: Could you tell me--

A: Well, I was born in 1920 in The Hague in the Netherlands.

Q: In the capital of the Netherlands?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No.

A: No, that's not the capital.

Q: It isn't?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No. Amsterdam is the capital, but the government

is in The Hague.

Q: Oh, that's why I was under a misimpression.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It's kind of mixed up.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 4

Q: Aha. My apologies. My apologies then. So you were born in The Hague on what

date in 1920?

A: June 13.

Q: June 13, 1920?

A: Yeah.

Q: And that's why your name is now "June"?

A: Yeah, that's what I did myself.

Q: Okay. And your name at birth was what, your maiden name?

A: My maiden, Rekia (ph).

Q: Rekia, Matilda Rekia (ph)?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. What were your father and your mother's names?

A: Oh, my father's name was Marius.

Q: Marius?

A: First name.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Marius, Marius Rekia (ph), and my mother's name was Gertrude Christina.

Q: Would that be Gertrude Christine --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- if we Anglicized it?

A: Yeah.

Q: Gertrude Christine. Do you remember her maiden name?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 5

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Haideking (ph).

A: Haideking (ph), yeah. Yeah, right.

Q: Haideking (ph)?

A: Haideking (ph).

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah.

Q: Your husband knows, yeah.

A: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I'm five years younger.

Q: Did you have brothers and sisters?

A: Two brothers, younger than I am.

Q: So you were the oldest?

A: Yeah.

Q: What are their names, your brothers" names?

A: Marius, Geurt.

Q: How would I say "Geurt" in English? Would it be "George" or would it be "Curt" or-

A: [have no idea.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: G-e-u-r-t.

Q: G-e-u-r-t, "Geurt"?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: "Geurt."

Q: "Geurt," yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It's a Dutch name. Like mine is "Sybe." The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 6

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah, S-y-b-e. It's "Sybe."

Q: How do you pronounce S-y-b-e?

A: "Sybe."

Q: "Sybe." Okay. So can you tell me what your father's profession was?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, he was vice president of an insurance

company.

A: Yeah.

Q: Your father was vice president of an insurance company?

A: My father was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: ___ +.

A: My father.

Q: What was the name of the insurance company? It's okay. I'm just asking if you

would remember. Is it one of the largest ones that was in the Netherlands?

A: [have no idea.

Q: Okay. Did your mother work?

A: Oh, no.

Q: She stayed at home with the children and worked at home?

A: No, she didn't work.

Q: Well, she was a housewife, was she?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 7

A: But she had live-in maids.

Q: Ah. Well, that's one of my questions then. Would you say your family was rather

well-to-do?

A: No.

Q: No?

A: I didn't think so.

Q: Most people couldn't afford a live-in maid.

A: Most people what?

Q: Could not afford a live-in maid.

A: Oh, no, we always had one.

Q: You always had one?

A: And sometimes two.

Q: Did you spend your childhood in The Hague?

A: Yeah.

Q: Can you tell me a little bit about that? Do you have any earliest memories?

A: No, not anymore.

Q: Not anymore. Do you remember anything about school life?

A: I don't know. Ask me something.

Q: Okay. Did you go -- how old were you?

A: Oh, yeah.

Q: Okay. What is it that you're remembering?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's the name of the insurance company.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 8

A: What is it? Levensverzekerings _+.

Q: So it would be some life insurance company?

A: Yeah.

Q: A life insurance company.

A: My father, he was the vice president of this company.

Q: Aha. Was your father -- was your father often at home? Often on business? Did he --

was he a distant person, or was it somebody you were very close to?

A: What do you mean?

Q: Imean, well, sometimes when people were in high positions in companies, the family

didn't see them much because they were so busy.

A: No, he was every day.

Q: He was every day. Okay. Did he come home for lunch, for example?

A: I don't remember.

Q: Okay. Tell me a little bit about his personality, your father's personality.

A: [have no idea.

Q: Was he outgoing? Was he friendly? Was he reserved? Was he a person who the

children were frightened of? Was he someone that played with you a lot? Those are

the types of things. I'm trying to get a sense of what kind of a person he was in your life.

A: I don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: What about college, when you wanted to go to

university?

A: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 9

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He was very outgoing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Very outgoing, yeah.

A: Yeah, I wanted to go to college after high school. And he said, "You already have a

boyfriend. You're already getting married. And you will never work, and it will be all a

waste of money."

Q: Is that what he said?

A: Yeah.

Q: And does that mean that you never went to college?

A: Well, later. Later I did, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: Much later.

Q: Okay. What was your mother like? What kind of a person was your mother?

A: Fairly -- fairly religious.

Q: Was she?

A: Not in the beginning. When they got married, they were not, but then she somehow

got -- somehow got religious.

A: And she -- yeah. You remember that too?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Uh-huh.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. And what religion? What church did she belong to?

A: The Protestant church.

Q: There is -- as I understand it in the Netherlands, there are quite a few.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 10

A: Yeah.

Q: Which one would it be?

A: [have --

Q: You don't remember?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The reformed.

A: Huh?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The reformed.

A: The reformed. That's right, the reformed.

Q: She was part of the reformed?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. And your father, was he religious?

A: I don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Not as much.

Q: Okay. Was she practicing, your mother? When you say she was very religious, did

she go to services a lot?

A: Yes. Yeah, because on Sundays, my father took us to the beach, you know, for fun.

And my mother was in church.

Q: Isee. So all the kids were out having fun at the beach?

A: Yes.

Q: And mama was praying?

A: Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 11

Q: Okay. Was she somebody involved in bringing you up, or did -- yeah, was she

involved in bringing you up?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: In what ways?

A: I wouldn't know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Did she teach you how to do anything?

Q: Yeah, did she teach you how to do anything?

A: I don't know.

Q: Did she teach you any sort of, like, kitchen skills or household skills or anything like

that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Singing. She loved to sing.

A: She was very -- very musical.

Q: Did she play an instrument?

A: Yes, an organ.

Q: An organ?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: And did she teach you the organ too?

A: No, she didn't.

Q: Did she play for you?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: Did you like it?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 12

A: She was very, very musically inclined. She was -- what is it? She knew --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Perfect pitch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: She had perfect pitch.

A: Perfect pitch, yeah, she did. She brought the perfect pitch.

Q: Did she play outside the family? Did she ever play for other people?

A: No.

Q: No? Okay. So she didn't have concerts or --

A: Oh, no.

Q: -- anything like that? And your father, what sort of things did he teach you?

A: He exercised a lot.

Q: He exercised a lot?

A: Yeah. We just --

Q: And did that mean that the kids had to exercise a lot?

A: Walking mostly.

Q: Okay.

A: And then go to the gym, the gym, gymnastics.

Q: He was before his time.

A: Yeah.

Q: People didn't do that, didn't have as much consciousness about that in earlier

generations as today.

A: Maybe not -- maybe not in the United States.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 13

Q: That's true. That's true. I'm trying to get a sense of which of your parents had the

greatest influence on you as you were growing up.

A: My father.

Q: He did?

A: Yeah.

Q: Why?

A: Well, I didn't --

Q: In what way? What about your father was -- provided that influence? What about his

personality or the way he was?

A: [have no idea.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Was he good with money?

A: What?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Was he good with money?

Q: Was he good with money?

A: Oh, yes. But my mother was too.

Q: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Who taught you how to balance a checkbook?

A: What?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Who taught you how to balance a checkbook.

Q: Who taught you how to balance a checkbook?

A: [have no idea. Do you remember?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 14

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I do know that you resented your mother's

fanatical religious --

A: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, when David was -- how old when you first started to go?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: To St. Johns?

A: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: To Holland?

A: To Holland.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Seven.

A: Every summer, David --

Q: David is your son?

A: Yeah, right there.

Q: Okay. David is your son.

A: And every summer, he went to stay in Holland, because I wanted him to know my

family. And he stayed with my brother or my younger brother or my older brother --

well, they were both younger than I am, but -- and sometime they stayed with my parents

a little bit too. And what did you say you -- about the music?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Well, with your mom, I remember one time I was

playing a song. They had a little pump organ in the hallway.

Q: They had a pump organ in the hallway.

A: They what?

Q: Your grandmother had a pump organ in the hallway.

A: Oh, yes.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 15

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And I played a song, and she was singing -- she

did not know the words, but she was singing the notes from the kitchen while she was

peeling potatoes. So she was just singing the letter notes --A, B, C, D -- you know, just --

Q: That's pretty cool. That really shows, you know, how musical she was.

A: Oh, yeah. Yeah, she mentioned the notes when she was singing.

Q: Okay. So let's go back to your father. You said he was the person who was the

greatest influence on you growing up.

A: Yeah.

Q: In what way? Why would he be more of an influence than your mother, for example?

A: Because I hated her religious.

Q: Okay. So she was trying to -- was she forcing you and your brothers to go to church

too?

A: Yes.

Q: And --

A: But my father took us to the beach.

Q: Okay. So it must have been that he didn't share that degree of religious feeling.

A: No, he didn't.

Q: No, he didn't?

A: Well, when they first got married, they were not.

Q: Isee.

A: She became it later.

Q: Okay. Were they happy together, your parents?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 16

A: I think so.

Q: Yeah?

A: Yeah. Yeah, there was no problem between the two of them.

Q: Okay.

A: And he let her be religious the way she wants to. He let her go. But he was not, and

he did not want us to be like our mother.

Q: Why do you think that was?

A: He wasn't brought up like that.

Q: But what about your mother's religiosity did he want to keep from you and your

brothers adopting? Why would he not want you to be the same way?

A: That, I don't know.

Q: Okay.

A: They didn't start out that way. My mother became religious when they had been

married for a while, for --

Q: Did you used to have family dinners together, the whole family?

A: Oh, yeah.

Q: And at lunchtime too?

A: No. At lunchtime, we -- he did not for lunch. At what age?

Q: I would say, you know, if your father came -- did he come home for lunch from work,

or did he come home from work for dinner only? I'm trying to get a sense of what kind

of conversations were going on in the family.

A: I don't remember.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 17

Q: You don't remember. But when you had meals together, was there much discussion?

Did people talk about different things around the table?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: What was the usual topic?

A: I don't know.

Q: Okay. Did you talk about -- did you talk about your school and your classes and your

friends? Were your parents interested in that?

A: I suppose so.

Q: Okay. Did they ever talk about politics?

A: I don't know.

Q: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Your mother insisted on reading the Bible.

A: Oh, that's true. Yes.

Q: What would your mother insist on doing?

A: Reading the Bible.

Q: At dinner?

A: After dinner.

Q: After dinner.

A: At night, not during the day or the after -- yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And this was out loud.

A: Huh?

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 18

A: What did you say?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Out loud.

A: Yeah.

Q: How did your brothers feel about this?

A: I don't really know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Geurt was okay with it. He liked it and became

very religious and has always been.

Q: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And Marius was much more like his father.

Q: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And much more atheist.

A: He knows much more better than I do because --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He was there every summer.

A: He was there every summer. And that was when it was -- everything had changed

much more than -- than I was still there. More -- because my mother was not that

religious when I was little, and she was -- When you were there, she was very religious.

Q: So your son David is saying that your younger brother Geurt --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: "Geurt."

Q: -- "Geurt" became quite religious like your mother in his later years?

A: Not like -- not like my mother.

Q: Not like your mother?

A: No.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 19

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He was very religious. It gives you an idea of how

religious.

A: Well, he's -- well, he goes to church every Sunday, and he believes in the Bible and --

but he is not in the least bit trying to do -- trying to recruit anybody else.

Q: So he is not imposing this on anybody else?

A: No.

Q: But your mother did?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. And your older brother, from what your son says, was not particularly so.

Okay.

A: He wasn't religious at all. He was just like my father and me.

Q: Okay.

A: I will tell you something.

Q: Okay.

A: During the war, when I was in the resistance, sometimes Nazis would come to the

door and find out things. And my mother, she would -- she would go to bed when

something like that was happening, because that happens during the war, people would --

the Nazis would go --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Raids.

A: Huh?

Q: They would have raids?

A: Raids.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 20

Q: Okay. So they would go and search the houses?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. All right.

A: And my mother -- because my mother said, "God says that you shall never lie, and I

cannot lie. So then I have to tell them what I know about you." And then --but she went

to bed. She -- she acted like she was asleep or sick or whatever. And my father told the

Nazis that I was in Germany working for them.

Q: So your father had no problem with that kind of twisting of the truth?

A: No, he did not have any problem with it. But she disappeared because she said, "God

says you may not lie."

Q: Okay. So --

A: So that's how idiotic it was.

Q: Well, she went to bed when she wasn't sleepy, so that could be a sort of kind of lie.

Tell me, what were -- when you went to school -- do you have any memories of going to

school in the 1920s in The Hague?

A: No.

Q: Was it a public school that you attended?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No. Private school.

A: It was a private school.

Q: It was a private school?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yes. It was a religious school.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 21

A: Was it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

Q: So you went to a religious private school?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did it belong to the same church as your mother?

A: I think so. I don't really know.

Q: Okay. Did you have any friends in the school? Did you, you know, have -- were you

socially involved with the other children?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: Yeah? Did you have best friends?

A: Did I have what?

Q: Did you have best friends?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: Tell me about them a little bit.

A: I don't remember.

Q: Do you remember -- tell me a little bit about the place you lived. Was it an apartment

building? Was it a separate house? What were the -- what was your home like?

A: I think when I was very little, it was an apartment. Later they bought a house, but --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It was a row house.

A: Huh?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It was like a row house.

Q: A row house?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 22

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

A: A row house, yeah.

Q: Was it a big place? Was it spacious or kind of cramped?

A: Well, it --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It had a separate room for the cats.

A: Yeah.

Q: So you had -- tell me, you had some animals?

A: Yeah.

Q: What kind?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Her mother did.

A: My mother had -- always, she had six or seven cats, and she had a separate room for -

- just for the cats. Well, it was three levels.

Q: Okay. And did each child have its own bedroom?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: Okay. Did the maids sleep in?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. Was the house in the center of the town or in a residential area?

A: Well, there were several. I lived in several different places. It was -- how do you

mean? What do you mean by that?

Q: I'm trying to get a sense of whether you were very much a city girl and lived in the

town center or whether you lived on the edges of town. So your environment --

what would be your environment?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 23

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: A city girl, I would say.

Q: A city girl?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

A: Well, no, not so much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The country boy says.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Could you walk to school?

Q: Yeah, did you walk to school?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: Was it far away then?

A: No.

Q: Okay. Okay. What are some of the subjects that you were taught in school?

A: I don't know. I don't know.

Q: Did have you any favorite teachers?

A: I don't know that either.

Q: Okay. Aside from the people you've told me about --your parents and your brothers -

- was there anyone else who was a big part of your early life?

A: I would have to think about that.

Q: Okay.

A: That was later. That was when I was -- that was my fiance.

Q: Oh, you had a fiance?

A: I started -- he asked me to be his girlfriend when I was 18.

Q: So that would be 1938?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 24

A: Yeah.

Q: And what was the name of this person?

A: Gorfum Barahike (sp).

Q: Gorfum Barahike (sp)?

A: Yeah.

Q: How did you meet him?

A: Oh, I've known him. We lived close together. And I don't know.

Q: What kind of a person was he?

A: Well --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Was he good looking?

Q: Was he handsome?

A: Well, okay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Your families were close.

A: The families were close, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The families had known each other.

A: That's -- you're right, the families were close.

Q: Okay. And when he asked you to be his fiance -- is that it? Or his girlfriend? Those

are two different things.

A: Well, I --

Q: Did he ask you to marry him?

A: He was -- yeah, we were going to get married in the long run, because we had to go

college -- finish college first.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 25

Q: Aha.

A: And that -- and then you're in the war. That was an entirely different -- became an

entirely different story, and we couldn't. And it was impossible to get married then and --

would you like to see a photo?

Q: I would like to see a photo, but I would like to see one later, after we finish talking.

But I would like very much to see a photo of him.

A: Oh.

Q: Tell me, did you --

A: Because the important -- the whole important part of that is that we both were in the

resistance during the war.

Q: Did he bring you into the resistance?

A: No, he didn't.

Q: Did you bring him into the resistance?

A: No.

Q: You -- were you in the same activities or separate activities?

A: Separate activities.

Q: Did you know about one another's activities?

A: No.

Q: Okay.

A: No. Oh, no, because -- because if you were arrested and they were trying to get

everything out of you, if you didn't know it, you couldn't tell them.

Q: Exactly. I want to go to the nineteen -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 26

A: But he was -- the thing was, I was -- I was fairly lucky one day, because we were --

we were going to get married. Now, the -- whoever was going to get us married said he

would do everything in private, because we were in the resistance and we couldn't do

anything. Obviously, we couldn't --

Q: You couldn't do -- you couldn't have a public wedding?

A: No.

Q: Okay.

A: So anyway, but it never happened. Because one day we were going to -- to a meeting

of people that --secret stuff in there, in the resistance. And we lived -- we lived in -- for a

while, we lived in the same house and with a couple of other students, because he was in

Delft, in the technische hoogeschool.

Q: Technical high school or something?

A: Technical --

Q: Technical college?

A: -- college.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Like MIT.

Q: Oh, more than a technical college then.

A: What did you say?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Like MIT.

A: Yes, yes, yes.

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 27

A: That's something else they had. And he was almost finished. But we were both in the

resistance, in different parts doing different things. And later, after the war, I heard what

he had been doing. He had been in contact with England all the time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He had a transmitter.

A: He had a transmitter. But I didn't know it at that time. Because if they had arrested

me and then asked me, you know, you never know, because they would torture you to get

the things out of you. So -- but anyway, one day I said -- you know, we were in a train on

the way home, and I said, "I'm not going to go home with you now, because I haven't

seen my parents for quite a while, and I have to tell them a few things." And I keep up to

date with each other, with my parents. So I got out of the train, and I went to my parents"

house and -- well, that was -- never even talked about anything. And the next day, I went

to the place where we were supposed to meet, and he didn't show up and he didn't show

up. And then later -- and then one of his friends came by and say, Oh, you're here. Yeah,

that's right. He said, Last night or -- no, early, early this morning, they -- the Nazis

knocked on the door, and they arrested him and -- anyway, four students who lived there.

He was almost -- he was not quite through college yet, but he was almost through college.

But at that time, it was --the college was really not working normally because it was --

Q: War time?

A: It was war time. And this morning they were arrested, and they were taken out of the

apartment where they lived, and where I lived, too, for -- so --

Q: And you didn't see him again?

A: I never saw him again.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 28

Q: You never saw him again?

A: No. Because after the war, the Germans had very exact records of everything they

did. Everything was on paper.

Q: Okay.

A: And they had taken him to a camp.

Q: A concentration camp?

A: A concentration camp. And three weeks after he was arrested, he was killed and shot

to death.

Q: I thought you had said that he had survived the war. I was under that impression.

A: No.

Q: No, he didn't survive the war?

A: No.

Q: And you found out about this after the war?

A: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: His name is on one of these.

Q: He was in -- how do you pronounce --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Fooft (ph).

Q: Fooshed (ph)?

A: Fooft (ph).

Q: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You can't pronounce it.

Q: No. So he was -- the Nazis who came to arrest him -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 29

A: Yeah.

Q: -- were they Dutch collaborator Nazis, or were they German?

A: They were Germans.

Q: They were Germans.

A: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Well, in Firft (ph), there were a lot of Dutch.

A: Huh?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: There was a lot of Dutch SS in Firft (ph).

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: That's true, yeah.

Q: But you didn't know this at the time?

A: No, I didn't know this at the time. I was hoping that he would come -- come home

after the war.

Q: What kind of a person was he?

A: Very smart.

Q: Very smart?

A: Yeah.

Q: And --

A: And he was -- yeah, he was in contact with England and -- yeah. I guess he did -- he

knew a lot that I didn't know that the Germans wanted to know.

Q: What a young man, you know -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 30

A: The funny thing was that he was -- I loved him very much. And on the other hand, he

was very fairly bossy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He was a control freak.

A: He was a control freak, yes. And I am not like that. I want to do my own thing.

Q: Yeah. Yeah.

A: And most of the time -- we loved each other very much, and most of the time

everything was okay. But my brother always said if you -- "Your marriage would never

have lasted." That's what my brother said.

Q: Because he was bossy?

A: Yeah.

Q: Let's step back a little bit. In the late 1930s, you were already a young lady, you

know, a teenager, a young lady. You at 18 --

A: You started --

Q: -- you started going out. Did you take an interest in politics? Did you take an interest

in what was going on around you? What were the sort of things that were of interest to

you?

A: When the Germans invaded the Netherlands and took over and were the boss, and the

German queen went to England and stayed there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The Dutch queen.

Q: The Dutch queen.

A: The Dutch queen.

Q: Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 31

A: What did I say?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: "The German queen."

Q: Was this Wilhelmina?

A: Wilhelmina.

Q: Wilhelmina.

A: Yeah, it's Wilhelmina. So you know that?

Q: A little bit.

A: Well, she went to England and --

Q: How did that make people feel, that she had left?

A: Oh, it was -- I think everybody said it was good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Very few people resented it, but most people --

Q: Thought it was the right thing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, that she got out.

A: Because if she was in England, she could do something.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

A: Ifshe stayed in the Netherlands, she -- yeah.

Q: Before the Germans invaded the Netherlands, were you interested in politics or in

history at all?

A: [really don't know.

Q: What are the sort of things that you used to do with your free time?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I do remember you told me about listening to the

radio with your dad, to Hitler's speeches. Do you remember that?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 32

Q: Do you remember about Germany -- what was happening in Germany? Did people

talk about that?

A: Yeah.

Q: How was --

A: What did you say?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Before the invasion, you told me that you

sometimes listened to speeches on the radio with your father that Hitler gave.

A: Yes. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: ___ +.

A: Yeah, +.

Q: What does that mean?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The ___ of cities.

Q: Oh, that's right. That's right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The __+.

Q: The soladiem (ph), yeah. I should know it. I speak German, but I remember that.

So when did you start listening to the radio? Was this before the invasion? I mean, were

you aware of what was going on in Germany?

A: Oh, yeah.

Q: And how was that discussed at home?

A: Well, everybody was very much against it.

Q: Okay. Did your mother take an interest in any of these things?

A: I don't really know.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 33

Q: Okay. Your brothers?

A: Well, they were so much younger than I am, because I --

Q: Okay. Tell me, what years were they born?

A: I was born in 1920. And one was -- my younger brother was born in 1923 and in

1925.

Q: Okay. So they were teenagers?

A: Yeah.

Q: They were teenagers when all of this happened?

A: Yeah.

Q: Do you remember the day when Germany invaded the Netherlands?

A: Yeah.

Q: Tell me about that day. Where were you?

A: At home.

Q: How did you find out?

A: Well, we were --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Paratroopers.

A: Paratroopers, yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You were on the roof watching them.

A: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I have a photo of that.

Q: You have a photo -- you were on the roof watching para -- German paratroopers land

into the city?

A: Well, it was only a matter of five days, wasn't it, the whole -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 34

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

A: It was five days from when they invaded the Netherlands and took over.

Q: Were you working at that point? Were you still going to school?

A: Iwas -- I don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: When did you get a job at the passport office?

A: In 1940. No, I was working.

Q: You were working?

A: Yeah, I was working.

Q: What was your job?

A: I was in -- I can't remember, but I was working for the Netherlands government.

Q: Oh, you were working for the Dutch government?

A: Yeah.

Q: But you don't remember where, in what capacity?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I think it was as a secretary in the distribution.

A: No, that was later. That was much later. That was during the war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Oh.

A: When the war started, no, I was -- no. When the war started, I was working for --

how do you call that? You know, everybody in Holland and here -- well, here, too,

I suppose, but in Holland much more so -- is registered. You know exactly -- everybody

is registered somewhere, and that information moves with you. If you go to a different

town, then all that information moves with you. And that's just for them, where you are.

Q: Do you have to go to the police or to some special -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 35

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: ___ register.

Q: A registry office?

A: Yeah.

Q: You have to go -- every time you move, you have to go to a registry office and let

them know?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. Is that where you worked?

A: That's where I worked.

Q: In the registry offices?

A: And then I worked in -- not in -- for the people in the town. I worked for the people

that got out of town, out of the country. That's what I was --

Q: So they had to -- there is a phrase in German. I forget it, but it is ingregestrian (ph)

and austregestrian (ph), I think, whatever. But people register when they come to a place,

and then they let you know when they leave a place.

A: Yes.

Q: So that's where you were working?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You had a card. And when you left the town

where you were living, you were given a card. And then in the next town, you gave that,

and there you were registered again.

Q: Isee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And you still have a card when you left --

A: Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 36

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: -- left the country.

Q: So you were working in the office where people who were going to leave the country

were registered out of the Netherlands?

A: That's right.

Q: During -- at the time when the Nazis came in, when Germany occupied the

Netherlands?

A: Yeah.

Q: So here is another

Q: When you were growing up, you went to a religious

school. Were there any Jewish children in this Christian school?

A: [have no idea.

Q: Did you know any Jewish people when you were growing up?

A: Oh, yeah.

Q: How?

A: They were either neighbors or friends or -- there were no difference -- no difference

thinking about it.

Q: Okay. But did you know that -- did you have any close friends who were Jewish?

A: I don't really know.

Q: Okay. Okay. But they were part of, let's say, you're growing up life, your larger

circle of people that you knew, maybe not very close friends, but in your community?

A: Jewish people?

Q: Yes.

A: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, I knew Jewish people. It made no difference to me, to us.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 37

Q: Did your father have business associates who were Jewish?

A: [have no idea.

Q: You have no idea. Okay. When you were working in this office at the start of the

war, was there a lot of activity of Jewish people wanting to register out of the

Netherlands when the Germans came?

A: No idea.

Q: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, you worked for a while in a camp where

Jewish people came from Germany and then went to England.

A: Oh, that's right. Yes.

Q: Was this at the outbreak of the war?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

Q: So when she was in this office --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No, before, 1938 or so.

A: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I forgot about that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I forgot the name of that.

A: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Do you remember the name of that camp?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Like a refugee camp?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: What?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Like arefugee camp or__.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 38

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It was a camp for people that escaped from

Germany. They were put in there and then transported to England.

Q: So it was a transit camp, a refugee transit camp?

A: Yeah, you are right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: These refugees had to be put up somewhere. They

couldn't go to families. They stayed there, and then they went over to England or to the

United States. But at that time, America refused a ship of Jews, and then they came back

to Holland and then went to England.

A: Yeah, you are right.

Q: Okay.

A: ITremember.

Q: Even before the war, then, before you were working in this office, you worked in one

of those transit camps?

A: Yes.

Q: What was your job?

A: Secretary.

Q: Okay. And did you talk -- did you have a chance to talk with the people who were

coming through?

A: [have no idea.

Q: Okay. Did you through your work there know more about what was going on in

Germany because there were so many refugees coming out of Germany?

A: We heard about it, yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 39

Q: How did you get involved to work in a place like that?

A: Because my father got me the job.

Q: Okay. And this was all in The Hague?

A: That's all in The Hague.

Q: So this camp was -- do you remember the name of it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I'm trying to remember.

Q: The transit camp. Okay.

A: I don't remember.

Q: Okay. Who -- after you saw from the roof of your house the German paratroopers

land in the city, how did your life change because of this occupation? In what way did

your life change from what it had been?

A: I don't think it changed. I just had the same job.

Q: Okay. Were people allowed to leave the country?

A: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No.

A: No.

Q: So in that case, if you're at a job where you are registering people out to leave the

country and they are not allowed to leave, you don't have a whole lot to do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They send you to Germany.

A: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Not the women, but the men.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 40

Q: I'm confused. Who would be sent to Germany? The people who wanted to leave the

Netherlands or the workers at the --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Whether you liked it or not, you were sent to work

in Germany or in France. Slave labor.

Q: But who? Who would be sent there? Okay. I'm confused now. If you're working at

a municipal or a federal office that registers people to leave the country, and now you

have have a German occupation, a Nazi occupation, and it's war time and people are no

longer allowed to leave the country, what happens to that office? Does it close because

there is nobody left that you can register out?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I don't know.

Q: So -- and my basic question was, How does your life change? And if it didn't change,

then that meant you could continue doing the work you were doing. And if it did change,

how did it change?

A: You know, I don't really remember how long I worked there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I wouldn't know.

A: No, you wouldn't know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Were you working there when the Nazis -- did

they come in and ask you to turn over any information?

A: Ireally don't. I really don't.

Q: Great question.

A: What did you say?

Q: When the Nazis came in, were you still working in this office of registration?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 41

A: Yes.

Q: And did they -- did any Nazi or Gestapo or vermarked (ph) or any Nazi or German

official come in and ask you for some of the information that was there?

A: Not -- not in the beginning. Not for the first year or so.

Q: I see.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: But you still worked there when they asked you

for people's records?

A: No. In the beginning, I was -- in the beginning not.

Q: Okay. You continued working there, though, in that same place?

A: You know, I don't remember how long I worked there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Did your supervisor change, or did any of the boss"

-- your supervisor's boss change?

A: I really don't remember. I would have to think about that.

Q: Okay.

A: But I really don't. I really do not remember how long I worked there.

Q: Okay. Did daily life change?

A: Did what?

Q: Did daily life for you change in any way?

A: Did daily --

Q: Daily life, your everyday life. You know, if you went to the cinema or if you went to

buy food, or did things change in your environment after that occupation?

A: Well, that was -- that went so slowly. The changes were not just, bang, like that.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 42

Q: Okay. So they happened gradually?

A: Gradually, very gradually, very slowly. And I did -- I -- that office that I was talking

about that did all of that stuff, that was -- that didn't exist anymore after a while because

there was no -- there was no use for it.

Q: Okay.

A: That office for -- what do you call that in Dutch? Benlatzizager (ph)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Internal --

Q: Well, it's a registration office. A registration office.

A: Yeah, but it wasn't -- that was closed because it wasn't necessary anymore. There was

no -- there were no people going in and out.

Q: Okay. And did that happen, also, gradually?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. By this -- but were you -- who brought you into the resistance? How did you

end up joining the resistance?

A: Just because I knew -- somebody had asked me if I could do something.

Q: Who was it that you knew? Who asked you?

A: Friends.

Q: Do you remember the things they asked you to do?

A: No. [had a friend, a woman, who did all kinds of things and would tell me what she

was doing, and after a while said to me, "Could you do something for me?" And I said,

"Yes." And Noose (ph) -- her name was Noose (ph). And so slowly -- she was a very

good, old friend that I had known for a long, long time.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 43

Q: Was she your age?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: And she -- then she knew higher-up people. And she asked me if I could do

something for her, do some -- and very slowly, from one thing into another, and -- yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Did you still have access to the stamps that you

had? Did you have stamps from the first job you had?

A: Do I have what?

Q: Did you have -- you know how when you have to register somebody out from the

municipal building or from a federal registration, you usually have to stamp it with an

official stamp?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you still have access to those stamps?

A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Q: Was she asking you to help her in that way?

A: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: ID cards.

Q: And to make ID cards?

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: And using those stamps from an office that had now been closed?

A: Yeah.

Q: Is that the case?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 44

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: She got ___ with IDs. Do you want to show her

in a little while? She still has her own, and her own -- she got a second ID. She became

somebody else. And then she also has still an ID for somebody who was captured before

she got to her.

Q: Oh, wow.

A: What are you saying?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You still have --

A: Oh, oh, oh, that guy. Yeah, but that was all in 1944.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

A: She is talking about in the beginning.

Q: Yes. What I want to do is get a sense of how do you become involved? What are

your first activities? Who involves you? How do you get drawn in?

A: It just happened, who you happen to know.

Q: Yes, I know. But in your case, that's true. It's who was it in your case specifically?

A: Well --

Q: It was this lady.

A: Well, somebody that you work -- happened to work with before the war even and --

yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: What did she ask you to do, Noose?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 45

Q: Yeah, what did she ask you to do? Do you remember the first things that she asked

you to do?

A: Well, just deliver -- deliver fake -- some fake IDs.

Q: Okay. It was to deliver them?

A: Just deliver them. Just deliver them.

Q: Okay.

A: I didn't have any part of it. Just deliver them. That's how I started, and then I got

more and more involved.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: How did you get more involved?

Q: How did you deliver them?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Ona bike.

A: Yeah, on a bicycle.

Q: Did you -- and did you deliver them directly to people for whom they were intended?

A: Sometimes. But most of the time not.

Q: Okay. And was this all in The Hague, this --

A: That was all in The Hague.

Q: This was all in The Hague?

A: No, not all. There was also some in Leiden.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Leiden, Delft.

A: Delft. Appingedam (ph). Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: No, the towns around it.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 46

Q: Okay. Was there a danger that if you were stopped and people found these IDs,

officials found these IDs?

A: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

Q: Were you ever -- did ever something like that happen to you, or close?

A: Well, I don't --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Do you want to tell the story about the bicycle and

the --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The escalator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And the escalator.

A: Oh, yeah. What was that? I forgot about that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You had a suitcase.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You had a suitcase in the bicycle with weapons

and pistols.

A: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And you were fairly calm. A German officer

started to help her. The escalator there isn't wide enough to accommodate the bicycle.

So she was on there with a bike, and then the officer had gone to help her.

Q: With the suitcase?

A: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Do you remember that, _?

A: No.

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 47

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Did you ever disguise yourself?

Q: Did you ever disguise yourself?

A: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Like a nurse or --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Oh, yeah, you wore a nurse's uniform.

A: Oh, yeah, yeah, toward the end of the war, I was --I was wearing a nurse's uniform,

because if -- you would not be interviewed or --

Q: Interrogated?

A: -- interrogated so easily as a nurse because --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Curfew hours were less restricted.

A: What?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Wasn't curfew less restricted?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And you could have a bicycle with tires.

A: Yeah. That's true, yeah.

Q: So you were -- if you had a nurse's uniform, your curfew was not as strict?

A: No.

Q: And you could have a bicycle with tires, you said. So most other people had bikes

without tires?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Bicycles with tires were confiscated.

Q: So people couldn't ride bikes, basically?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No.

Q: Isee.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 48

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You had a bike without tires.

Q: They had a bike without tires.

A: Yeah.

Q: Try getting far on that.

A: Gosh, it's so long ago, and I am getting so forgetful. I'm getting so old.

Q: That's okay. That's okay.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Just think of stories. You used to tell me stories.

A: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Interesting stories.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, we can give you a CD.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: Because about 20 or 30 years ago, I started writing down what I remembered, which

is a heck of a lot more than what I remember now.

Q: Oh, yeah.

A: Some time ago I was looking through that old story, and I said, "Did I write that?"

Q: Yeah.

A: No, it was --

Q: It happens. It happens.

A: No. I mean, my memory is getting very bad. Well, I'm old.

Q: Well, tell me, then, after being involved with -- in the beginning, you know, just by

delivering IDs, what were some of the next jobs that you did?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 49

A: Well, what was some of the next things? Well, finding out -- if I heard about

somebody who needed something, to find -- to find a place where another identity could

be found.

Q: Did you give people -- when you made false identity cards, were these from other real

people, or did you make up names?

A: The ones I had were all real people.

Q: So were they deceased or out of the country?

A: Out of the country.

Q: They were out of the country. And you gave people the cards from people who had

been out of the country?

A: That's right. That's the main ones that I had, because I had been working in that part

of the -- before the war in that part --

Q: The registry, yeah.

A: The registry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: In the registry, she wrote back on paper.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Before the war even started.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: If somebody had -- like Maria Mahaidan (ph), who

she became, had gone to Indonesia. Now, if you had forged papers, often they were just

accepted. But sometimes they would check at the main bureau or the department. And

then if that name wasn't there, then they knew where you were, so you were still arrested

or they took the people in the house where you had been living. So on paper, they would

bring them back into the central register and then give the forged -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 50

Q: IDs?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: -- ID with different photographs and fingerprints.

Q: So in other words, the real -- the real Marie Funhaiden (ph) lives in Indonesia?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

Q: She doesn't know from anything?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No. She still doesn't.

Q: Yeah. But she is registered out?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

Q: But if you want to use her name, for example, you first register her back into the

country?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Right.

Q: And then issue somebody an ID in that name?

A: That's right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And it was dated five years before that she had

come back.

Q: Isee. Isee. So it was creating false documentation?

A: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: But you had to know people in the department,

like she did.

A: Yes. Yes.

Q: To do that?

A: And I knew a lot of people that worked in all these different departments.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 51

Q: Isee. Now, when I asked earlier if life had changed for you, you said not so much

and only gradually. What about the Jewish people that you knew? And in general, for

Jews, did it change much quicker? Did you see changes after the German occupation?

A: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They had to wear the yellow star right away.

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. Can you repeat that then? Can you tell me, were there changes for Jewish

people?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: Oh, yes. They wore the yellow star. They had to wear a yellow star.

Q: And did they start to disappear?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you hear of these things?

A: Did I what?

Q: Did you hear of neighbors or acquaintances disappearing because they were Jewish?

Did you hear of them being arrested?

A: I don't remember.

Q: Okay. Did you prepare any ID cards for Jewish people?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: When did that start?

A: Oh, I don't know.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 52

Q: Okay. Was it like 1941 or something like that?

A: Well, later than that.

Q: Later than that?

A: Yeah.

Q: When did you get involved in not only delivering ID cards, but putting them

together?

A: I think about 1943, yeah. It must have been something, 1943.

Q: What was that process?

A: Huh?

Q: How did you do this? What did you have to do to make this happen?

A: Oh, no. This was just -- because I knew so many people in all these different offices,

that they would ask me to do this or do that. And slowly it got more and more involved

over the years. I didn't one day start saying, "I'm going to do this."

Q: Of course not. Of course not. What I'm trying to get a sense --

A: Because it was very slowly I got more and more involved.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Mom, what were the steps to make an ID? First,

you would be contacted, and someone needed an ID? What would happen next? Would

they take a photograph of the person, or did you get the name first?

Q: How did you go about putting an ID together for someone, a false ID?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Someone would take a photograph.

A: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And give it to you.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 53

A: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And then you get the stuff out.

A: I will show you something.

Q: Okay. Why don't you -- why don't we unhook for a minute.

A: And my parents --

Q: When you moved to the United States, your parents --

A: Five years later, my parents came to visit us, and they stayed with us for six months.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

A: And my father brought -- he said, "We went through your office, through your stuff

that you left." And then -- because I was going to work here for one year and go back.

And then we met, and we got married, and I stayed here. So then I left the Netherlands. I

was going to move away. I didn't know that at that time. Anyway, we met, and we stayed

here. And then my father -- five years later, my father says, "We have cleaned out your

room because you're not coming back" --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- "living with us." And he had all the papers that I thought -- "I think you may want

to save."

Q: Good for him. And that's it?

A: And that's it.

Q: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. So let's take a look at what some of these are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Did the envelope have the IDs in it?

A: Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Matilda "June" Bakker 54

Q: So what we're looking at is a brownish-colored ID card that says Brivias Netherlands

Albertstine (ph). And it doesn't say what year. Okay. I'm only going to record when we

get to the right documents.

Conclusion of Interview The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview, i i t t rj } llecti fOr: i i fc io. cess and ris Reef the, United, Blatrs Helecaust Memorial NiRsH eRe! Stine Hal Hest ees UPoKALCH about ap

usage rights HS Rate Re ates poneR i Mh ve mes i i ef