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MORRIS ROSEN August 5, 1999 Beginning Tape One, Side A

Q: This is the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum volunteer collection interview with Morris Rosen, conducted by Esther Finder on August 5%, 1999 in Washington, D.C. This interview is part of the museum's project to interview Holocaust survivors and witnesses who are also volunteers with the museum. This is a follow-up interview that will focus on Morris Rosen's post- Holocaust experiences. In preparation for this interview, I listened to the interview you conducted with the University of Baltimore, the interview that was sponsored by the Baltimore Jewish Council on February 26", 1989. I will not ask you to repeat everything you said in that interview, instead I will use this interview as an opportunity to follow up on that interview and focus on your post-Holocaust experiences. This is tape number one, side A. Can you tell me please, what was your name at birth?

A: At birth was Moniek in Polish Rozen, yeah, which they called me Moshe, yeah, but mostly Moniek, that's what they all knew me by, that name, yes.

Q: When were you born?

A: November 10, "22.

Q: And where?

Interview with Morris Rosen , August 5, 1999

A: I was born actually in Czestochowa, where my mother came from. When she gave birth she went to the parents, but we lived in Dabrowa Gornicza, which is in Upper Silesia. Next city, large city is [indecipherable], Sosnowiec and Katowice.

Q: Can you tell me the names of the people in your family?

A: My family, first of all parents, was Jakub Rozen was my father, mother was Golda. And then I had sisters. The oldest was Leosia, Lila, we called her, and she married the Klugman, came out from Warsaw, they lived in Warsaw, they had their business in Warsaw, cause he was -- he was secretary for Keren Kayemet [indecipherable] before the war. And then I have, next was Yehiel, then was Rubin. One, I forgot all this, was Yitzhak, which I met him only after the war because they went, way before even I was born they went to Palestine. And then was rof -- Rozka, Ruchcia, Sala, Tamara and Srulek and me, of course, and then Josek and Bluma.

Q: What can you tell me about the day that you realized that you were no longer under Nazi control?

A: Well, actually, when I was in Theresienstadt, we were in a room, about 38 people, when they took us on the death march from Buchenwald. This was the second death march, the first one was from Kittlitztreben to Buchenwald. We were there for about a week and then I -- I went out with the last transport from ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Morris Rosen deg August 5, 1999 Buchenwald. I was hiding in the wall and sudden I heard shooting into the wall cause some other people came. I went out through a window, cut myself, and ran in -- outside I shouldn't get shot and they were already a line -- lined up, only Jewish people. They only asked for Jewish people. And we walked to Weimar by foot, which it was full glass, probably a half a foot glass from bombing and everything.

And then on cattle train, put us about hundred or 110, I don't know exactly, on the train. And people were dying every day, no food, no water, anything. And we threw out bodies. But we didn't have place where to sit or anything. When it got more roomy and more place, actually took some bodies to make ourselves pillows, and we sat on them. And on the fourth day they stopped at the station, which they gave us a soup. And it was pure salt, this probably meant to kill us off, which I threw away right away [indecipherable] the other people don't eat it. And on the fifth day they gave us some potatoes, they stopped at the station. And then came two Russian airplanes, and they started strafing the locomotive. Every five minutes the two came back. They were there for about a minute, strafing them. And on each side of the track were German soldiers also, and the aircraft, and other transports from the other camp. At that time when I ran down the train, from the train everybody ran, because we were afraid of the bullets from strafing. From another train came a boy from my city. He was a young -- a young kid about 15 years old, and he was a Pole ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Morris Rosen deg August 5, 1999 in the camp, not as a Jewish guy. Says, come on, we'll be with the Polish people, not as Jews, and you will survive better and we go there, and we have more food there than you do. And I says no, I will [indecipherable] with the Jewish people, I am going to stay, you can join me. And we were there a whole night long in the field laying around and the bombs were falling we saw from [indecipherable] everything red, on fire, with heavy bombing from the [indecipherable]. And this is the last time I saw that boy, he went back. In fact, I think they killed the whole transport there, and he got killed too, he didn't survive. They -- several of us got away, but they killed them, because even soldiers, not only the SS, they were looking for us, and we walked all the way til we came to Terezin. In Terezin we were very hungry, dirty, and I don't have to tell you the lice and everything, they ate us up alive. And we waited at Terezin all night long, they didn't have a place for us. We slept on the stones there, I remember. Then we came the morning, they gave us hot coffee, bread, and some cheese. And right away they -- we had to give away our clothing. We were washed and everything. They gave me two new shirts, clean white shirts. This is the first time I put on a shirt in four years. And nice clothing, and even a pajama, I was shocked. And we were in the Hamburg caserna(ph). We were there for a couple days, and people were just dying in the room, sick from typhus. And I was very scared to be with them. I knew --I saw Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999

what's happening. And I jumped down a window, I don't know if I was sick at that time or something, but something, I jumped out the window and I don't know how long I was on the feet. But in the morning I -- I have, in sleep like singing Czech songs, partisan songs, and when I woke up there was a Russian soldier what woke me up. He stood with me. And they gave me some food. I went back to the -- went back to the room there with some other people, we only left 16 people from over 30.

And then I went out, I couldn't walk because I was only about around 80 pounds, not any more. And after a day, the entire long day, a guy from our barrack, he was very hefty, he must be the kapo or something, but a healthy guy, he smuggled himself out from Terezin, because it was quarantine, they didn't let anybody out, there were Czech soldiers staying outside the [indecipherable] because a lot of sickness was going, typhus. Th-Thousands of people died at that time. And he came with the wagon, horse and wagon and on the wagon he had wine, cases and cases of wine. And the Portuguese sardines in golden labels, I remember like now. And he brought in there thousands and thousands of hundred mark bills, which we didn't have toilet tissue, was diarrhea a lot, and we put them on a hook, on nails, and we put them in -- we didn't know that the money will ever be good for something, how would we know? We didn't have any other paper. And all I ate is the sardines and the -- and the wine drank. And we didn't have bread or anything. And then they told ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Morris Rosen deg August 5, 1999 me to go to the doctor. When I went to the doctor and he says, what have you been eating, that you not even hungry? First of all, my stomach shrank, we couldn't eat much. And he says, you're pretty lucky, because you could have died from the sardines. You are lucky that you drank a lot of wine. The wine, that saved your life.

And they gave us food, right away they brought in food, the same food what the army, the Soviet army took. And this was the biggest, biggest mistake, because th- they came in with the field kitchen, and they have kraut with bacon in it, meat, and potatoes and everything so fat, and people were dying like flies from the food. Then I heard when you were liberated by the Americans, they didn't give you no food, very little, because the stomach shrank, you couldn't eat anything. And that's the reason a lot of people they could survive, died from the food. And I was very careful. When he told me you lucky that the wine -- and when they gave such a food, all I ate was a little piece meat, not much, and the potatoes. And a liquid. They gave milk, this I drank, and -- for about a week. And then th -- th-they burned [indecipherable] there because they were full with, you know, vermin and everything. And dead people were all around. And then --

Q: Did the doctor explain to you why sardines were dangerous and would have been harmful to you?

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Morris Rosen deg August 5, 1999

A: No, he didn't explain, he just said that you were lucky, but they tasted so good.

Yeah, and everybody ate them, and we drank a lot of wine. We didn't have anything to do, cause we were afraid to go to other barracks there. They weren't barracks, but the other buildings, cause this was actually the ghetto, it wasn't barracks. And we afraid a lot -- I met there some friends, they were sick, from my hometown also.

And a lot of my friends passed away. And we saw there -- there I met a girl from Yugoslavia, she was on a bench sitting, I warmed myself in the sun, and then I met the girl Truwik(ph) from our city, from Dabrowa, they have a store with leather goods, the ver -- very fine family and we talked about it. And then came the -- they came for her that she went to Sweden. She begged me to go with her to Sweden.

And -- cause they took young kids there. And I says no, I'm gonna wait, maybe I find somebody or something. And I saw there guards, huge guards, they took Germans, the SS and other people, cleaning away the dirts and everything, and we screamed at them, we [indecipherable] but we couldn't do any other thing, and I was sorry I didn't kill a couple of them. But there's nothing you could do.

Q: When were you liberated?

A: Well, let me tell you the story what was. From the Red Cross they came, ask my name, from which city I am, and the information that they took from me, went the same, I think, on the radio in New York. All over Europe, every night between 10 http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999 and one in the morning, they -- they called out names who survive, which camp were they at, so on, so on. So my sister's husband, Klugman, the one that was the secretary from [indecipherable] he heard on the radio I am alive. He was in Budapest at that time. He was with his son, he was in the underground, and -- so when they heard me, he went alone, his son, they made up that they're gonna meet in Prague, and he came to Terezin. Of course, they wouldn't let nobody out at that time, but he had his son's pass, and with this pass they let me out, and he was as a correspondent, because he had papers as a correspondent there. And he took me out from there, I had only one pair of pants, I took along another shirt what they gave me, and we walked a couple miles to Buchewice(ph) because there was no train at that time.

Q: When were you liberated? You know the date?

A: I was -- I was liberated, was around the sixth or seventh of -- of May, or maybe earlier, I will never know the date exact, but appro -- approximately this is the time.

Cause don't forget, I was out, I don't know how long I was out.

Q: You said that they announced on the radio your name --

A: Yes.

Q: -- in the camps. What camps were you in during the war?

Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999

A: Well, I was -- first of all, of course in the ghetto. Then I was in one camp right after they took my parents away, the Jewish community send me to Szezakowa.

This was a leather factory, which we work, we were about 30 men there. And after it was Judenrein in all Upper Silesia and we got food from the Jewish community.

The Juden [indecipherable] send us food. And when was no more food, about two weeks after Judenrein, the SS came. Now, the SS came, they took us away from Szezakowa and we were the ones cleaning out the [indecipherable] in Sosnowiec, Chancer(ph) was still there, he was the Juden-Elster(ph) from [indecipherable].

And we went there, I remember all the sto -- all with people were sleeping and everything. And one morning before [indecipherable] we came -- we went to work, came the SS man Ludwig. He was the head that they sent all the people to the camps from Silesia and everybody was petrified scared of him because we knew who he was. He sent my sister to the camp also, and everybody from our city. And he ask if there is a painter. And I was doing painting in the ghetto during the war for the Bauleitung. This is the building company that they send us to work. I was doing bricklaying and painting a lot and I learned the trade very good in the war, I was very good, young, and I kept my mouth shut, because I was afraid. I was a young boy, short, and I'm not going to tell him I'm a mechanic, I'm a painter, I was afraid of him. So one from my city that was with me [indecipherable] his name, said that Interview with Morris Rosen deg August 5, 1999

the Rosen is a painter. So he came -- he came over to me, bist du ein Maler?

Jawohl Oberscharfuehrer, he gave me right away in the face [indecipherable] he knocks me out, all the teeth. [speaks German here]. Why do you keep your mouth shut? I am a painter, I said, I am a very good painter, very good. He puts me on the side. I didn't know what he was going to do with me. Everybody went to work and I stood there for about a half hour. Then came two SS men with him. He said, I got three rooms to paint and I give you three days. And he took out his pistol, tapped me in my head. He said, if you are not finished in three days, you lived enough. So I told him, I don't have no tools, I don't have no material. If you allow me to go to Dabrowa where we live, I got some tools that I work in the ghetto and I can [indecipherable]. He says, you don't need anything, you get everything. So the -- the two SS men took me, I walk with them through Sosnowiec, this was in Sosnowiec and while you walking on the street, I noticed a Jewish girl. Blonde hair, beautiful girl, I knew her. And she passed by so fast, and -- and I looked away that I didn't want to pay attention where that she should get caught or something. But she walked by. Then we went into a hardware store.

Q: I have to just check the equipment for one moment.

A: Yeah. [tape break]

Q: Okay, we're back, I'm sorry.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen 8 August 5, 1999

A: Okay, after --

Q: You were telling me about the --

A: -- after I worked by --

Q: -- I asked you about the camps.

A: Yeah, after I worked by him, and I was working there for about four weeks, so he said, well, Maler, you are not going to Auschwitz, which I didn't know what Auschwitz meant at all. At that time we didn't know. And he said, but I send you to a camp. And he brought me food every day. So I ask him, is it possible you send me to a camp where my sister is, I don't have nobody from my family, just a sister. He says, where is she? I said, she is in Gruenberg, Lower Silesia. He says well, this is a women's camp. And then he stood for a second [indecipherable] that you will go there. But meanwhile you go to another camp, a transition, which I went to Annaburg, and this was around October we went to Annaburg. There was no work there, but the transition beating every day. And from there I was sent -- only three people went, Chancer(ph), which was the Juden-Elster from -- from Dulac(ph) and Sosnowiec, and Herta(ph) Goldfinger, which it was his sweetheart.

She was -- she went over to Christianity, but still she was Jewish. They send her and she became Juden-Eltesten(ph) for the women in the camp, and by myself. I came there, it was about October in "43, and there were already some people there, men http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999 there, and I walked there in the [indecipherable] where they make [indecipherable] and the first [indecipherable] arrived, he let me in to see my sister, the Juden-Elster, because you got to go through the women's barrack, the women's hall and the men went with the [indecipherable] every day, and I went to see her every day and I saw my sister every day in camp. And there we were til about March 1944. The SS came for us because there was -- the men couldn't be any more with the women, it became not a labor camp, forced labor camp, but a concentration camp. And we were sent to Kittlitztreben. Was a subcamp from Gross-Rosen. It was hell there because the -- the barracks were still not heated, no water, anything. And from there we were til February fifth. When the Russians came near, we marched out on foot and this was the first death march, of which in previous tape I told my story. And we arrived sometimes in April to Buchenwald.

And Buchenwald was hell too, with all the dead people around everywhere and mountains of people, which I saw cannibalism for the first time. And on the heap of the dead bodies were still some live people half dead, one of them was Meyer Hysharik(ph). He was a German Jew, but they chased him out. He was in our city and I used to play [indecipherable] ping-pong with him in the Maccabee quarters.

And he asked me, don't you recognize me? I am Meyer. He says I knew -- but at that time when I saw the other people cutting thing, and I start screaming at them.

Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999

So they ran to me and I ran away. And then we heard that the American army came close by and they start to taking out only Jewish people, they called for Jewish people first, which was, I was hiding in the wall, I told the story. And then we went to Weimar by trains and this was the second death march to Theresienstadt.

Theresienstadt | arrived toward the end of April, must be the 25" or 26". This is the date. And I was liberated in May, either the sixth or the seventh.

Q: When you were liberated, tell me, what did you look like, and what was the state of your health?

A: Well, the state of my health wasn't bad, because all during -- all during my being in camp, I kept myself clean as can be. This was the most important thing, not the food as much, but not to run after food to get beaten over a -- a pea, on the death march, on a stomped cigarette like people got out and got beaten bloody, that's how they died. I kept away from this. I was with a couple people, friends from camp, from Gruenberg. We kept ourselves clean, neat, we shaved, everything. And I would say I wasn't very hungry, but I wasn't sick, I didn't have no diarrhea like all the other people. I was watching myself, I was sometimes with -- two weeks without food. But the will to live and the will to live is on the death march because I have the pictures from my home. That's what kept me alive. Of tor -- course I lost them the last day in Buchenwald. And what I wanted to live is, I wanted to see,

Interview with Morris Rosen 6 August 5, 1999

particularly some of my friends, and especially when I met a young girl in Sosnowiec, and I was hoping I can meet her. That's was the will to live, to see my family and this, and that's what kept me alive. And I wasn't thinking about food never, but just to take [indecipherable] I wanted to live. And that's, I think, that I lived through the war. And then, as I told you, my sister's husband came and took me out, and this was sometimes in May around, I would say around the 14 or the 15" of May. And we walked through [indecipherable] there was a train didn't go this way, so we went the first time -- day in hotel. And we had there a dinner. Of course, they didn't have meat, but nice potatoes with the soup, and this is the first time that I ate like a person, with a tablecloth and with a real fork and s -- and spoon. The first time that I cried, and I says it couldn't happen. And when I came to the room, the bed was all white linens, I couldn't believe. And I took a shower there, went to bed. And the next morning we got up early, and we waited for the train. On the train was no place, so we walked up on the roof from the train, my brother-in-law, myself. We held onto each other, a lot of people were there. We came to Prague. We came to Prague, the first thing when we got off the train, we saw on the street in every corner was the kiosk with food, because a lot of people, a lot of people came out from the camps hungry. So every corner was a heart, a red heart and the ches -- [indecipherable]. And you have sandwiches, donuts, milk, Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999

coffee, tea. And then they told us noontime we should go there and there, we get food. So we had soups, and they gave us meat. They were so nice, that's unbelievable. I -- I just couldn't -- couldn't think that anybody would be so nice, especially to Jewish people, they know we Jewish. Then after -- after being there about two days in the hotel, was about two -- about two or three in the morning, suddenly I wake up it was such a thing, about a hundred Polish women came in to the hotel to sleep. And they were offniks(ph), and [indecipherable] they were good -- they were workers from the fields and everything. I don't think so they were from camps. And they jumped out of my bunk of my bed. My [indecipherable] I jump down, they grab me by the thing, and in Polish, rough language, where do you think you go? You stay right here. But I -- they threw my shirt, I jumped down, my brother-in-law jumped down, right? Cause they were awful. They -- they didn't have men for a long time, this was their desire. And at that time I didn't think of women.

So I jumped down and went to the bathroom to wash up, and in the bathroom comes a young -- a young gentleman, was about 18 years and I think -- he ask me if I can loan the cup he wants to wash his teeth. And I look at him a red hair -- a redhead and the way how he spoke Polish, so I -- [indecipherable] do I ask, are you Monek(ph)? He jumped to me and kissed me. This was my brother-in-law's son from Warsaw. And I knew he's coming and when -- when I saw a redhead. And so http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen a August 5, 1999 we [indecipherable] went back, and then I said okay, I want to go back to Poland and see if anybody's alive. My brother-in-law said, okay, I'm here, we are going to meet up. What happened, they gave me money, they gave me ticket from the Czech people. I come to the train, the train arrive from Katowice. Train arrive, a lot of Jews came out, guys. I ask them where you going? He says, we just came from there. I told him I want to go to Poland, he says, are you crazy? He says, we just had to give a couple bottles vodka to the Russian guards that they should let us out from there. You are not safe there. They kill people [indecipherable] people, nobody's safe. So I turn back and went to saw my brother. He says, I had enough, he says, I don't like the Russians. They are not any better than -- I says, but they liberated us. He says, I don't like the communists. We are going to go over to the American side, because the Americans were occupying part of Czechoslovakia.

And from there we have a chance to go to Palestine. That's was te -- okay, we packed his son and myself and we went on the train and he told me, by the way, when the guards will come, the American guards or something, don't tell them you from Poland because they take you off and they go and ship you to Poland. Tell them you a German Jew, and you going back to Germany. We wanted to go to Germany. Okay, when came to the border, the Russian guards went off, the American [indecipherable] came in for passes. You know, passport because we ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999 crossed the border. Didn't have anything and he ask. As he ask where I'm going I tell them I'm from Germany, I'm going back to Germany. So my nephew started talking to him English, in a perfect English and the same thing my brother. So they ask how do you know such a good English? In fact, they used to have a French maid at home that she spoke to them only French and English instead of Polish, and he knew very well. So they took them off from the train, who they are, and he says you go, I find you. So I went by myself and arrived about 12 o'clock at night in Pilsner. When I got out from the station there were American soldiers sleeping on the ground with their sleeping bags and blankets. It was cold. A May day at night is very cold in Europe. And I was only dressed in a shirt and a pair of pants. So I lay down between them, kept pulling the blanket. They kept pulling back and I kept telling th -- pull them to me. Finally I fell asleep, I don't know, when I woke up it was about 11 in the morning. Nobody was there ex-except me on the cement. I got up hungry and cold. Where do I go? I go first to the police.

Q: We have to pause so I can change the tape. Just one -- End of Tape One, Side A Beginning Tape One, Side B

A: --camp and survive it, and I am from Poland, Polish. The first thing they told me, don't ever say you're Polish, because they hated the Poles, because in "38 when ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion

Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999

the German army entered Sudetenland, [indecipherable] the Poles went to [indecipherable], they occupied part of Czech Republic. And they hated the Poles.

Just tell them you were Jewish from Poland, otherwise you won't get anything and they are very angry, you might even get beaten up. They were angry at the Poles.

And then he tole -- he gave me five kroner, food, cigarettes. And he told me, if you join the communist party, you get double money and everything double. So I thought, for being in the party, what can it hurt? I get double money, better treatment -- they would treat me better. He gave me right away to put on a thing that I belong to the communist party and he gave me right away 10 kroner, they put me up where to sleep at night. But the boy scouts -- the boy scouts had a nice quarters, they gave me food, I showered, cigarettes. And I ask, is there Jewish people, cause I want to be with the Jewish people. No, there were no Jewish people they thought.

So I said, I'm going to go further. I go further, another place, I went to the police -- all I went to the police there, I showed up, I told them I'm from the communist party, also a member, and they gave me food. Again, I ask them for Jewish people. I came to a third town, I think it was Fawlen(ph) and so I ask them, they said yeah, there's Jewish people, girls, in Starachowice in the hospital. And I couldn't wait til --to meet them. The first thing to meet Jewish girls. I came to Starachowice, and this was mostly by foot going, all the bo -- the scouts, they took me by Jeep. They http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen * August 5, 1999 all time were nice, they took me from one city to other with their Jeeps. I came into the hospital, they told me yeah, there's four Jewish girls. They wouldn't give me the name. They're all sick on typhus, you can't go in to see them. It's quarantine, they wouldn't give me no information. I was so angry, here are all the four girls, tell me who they are, where they are. Can't do anything. Walking out from the hospital, and looking around the buildings, somebody screamed in Polish, Moniek, Moniek, it was [indecipherable] don't you recognize me? I am Bella(ph) Sigilla(ph). And she is from my city. And she was in Gruenberg, which I was with her in Gruenberg.

So I-- we cried both, and I asked her, can you tell me about my sister Bluma? She was with you in the camp, everything. So she said she was on the death march and she escaped. She saw when she escaped, they were shooting at the head, but I don't know if she fell dead or not, I can't tell you. But if you want to know more about it, th-the transport in Volvalla(ph), which it's in Volary, in the Sudetenland. There you will find, because the rest of the transport are there, we are here, four girls sick from typhus. So, I picked some field flowers, you know, in the field, they were coming out spring, I put a bouquet and I send it in to her, the flowers. And I walked away, I stopped there by people, they gave me food and I couldn't wait. I walked 12 hours without interruption, just to see -- to come with -- with the ha -- where the Jewish girls are. It took me two days to go there by foot mostly. I came to Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999

Vallin(ph), I came to the police, can you tell me -- I heard there are Jewish girls.

They took a policeman, he took me over [indecipherable] and he showed me this is the hospital, go in. Okay. As I came into the hospital I opened the door. On the top on the steps -- were about 14 or 15 steps, girls t-- a historical scream, Moniek, so hysterical. And happened to be the sister of my best friend Sheps(ph) Sheva(ph) Sheps(ph). She jumped down all the steps and we both fell to the wall, she would have killed me, both fell on the ground, and start screaming, right, that all the girls, that they were able to walk, because don't forget, they were very sick, came down running and most of them I knew from camp, and most of them from my city also, because they took to Gruenberg, 450 Jewish girls sent to this camp, my sister included. And that Sheva(ph) told me right away that her sister died, we talked there and I met all the other girls, she took me to the cemetery, showed me where her sister is buried, that she died two days after the liberation here, and some other girls that I knew that they're buried there, with a little note there written about her sister. And there were 45 graves there. They were buried in the field next to the Gentile cemetery, Catholic cemetery. They couldn't bury them because Jewish people, so they were in the field buried, and with little sticks, you know, who they are, that's all. And I came there, was there a chaplain, a Jewish chaplain from the army. His name was Jakov(ph) Katzman(ph), yes, and he gave me right away a Interview with Morris Rosen 8 August 5, 1999

job, you are going to work. So, he says, since you don't know English, he spoke to me Yiddish, I have there in the hospital there -- it wasn't a hospital, just sol -- you know, with a couple doctors for the army, army doctors. And to clean off there and help along, give him this and that. And he gave somebody a needle, and I fainted, because I saw blood. Here I was sleep on dead bodies, here I saw a little blood and I fainted. And then I stood there [indecipherable] he gave another one a needle, cause they gave inoculation, I faint again, so I went out. I told the chaplain I can't work there, fainting all the time I see blood. So he gave me a job to the officers" kitchen, which I help clean pots and pans, help in baking pies. And when I saw the meats, what they cut away the fat, meat and everything, I says why, this the best, they throw this away? The big cans that we filled them, filling from the pies they threw away. I says, what are you doing, my God [indecipherable] food. And on the next day I started stealing oranges. I saw, and I saw food, I put in my pants, I bind around for the girls -- to bring to that hospital for the girls [indecipherable]. So as I walked around [indecipherable] there, one of the officers come over, what do you have there? So I was really, you know, scared and this, and don't be scared, what do you have there? I said, it's not for me, you know I'm not hungry, I eat here all the food. It's for the sick girls in the hospital. Take this -- everything out here. Come with me. He took me on a Jeep, he took me to the American PX. He took a big

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen 4 August 5, 1999 sack, he put in -- what you like from here? He put in chocolate, he put in soap, he put in toothpicks. He took a -- he says, don't you steal, you come to me every time.

We know girls, we know about them, we help them. Anytime come to me and I give you plenty. And he gave me chocolates. And I have the nice experience, because on the third floor in the hospital was a very sick girl. And there were four sisters. They were the best friends of my sister in camp in Gruenberg. They were German girls. And they were with her, and I brought them chocolates and oranges every day and more. But what's coincident -- I want to interrupt, which it's going to come later, that this is the Ebi(ph) sisters. She died late, late in September. When no more girls were there they took us out from there, they couldn't -- so they remained there, and she died there, she is buried in the cemetery. And I gave a talk before going for the 50" anniversary to Volary, with survivors from the hospital we came for a gathering there. I gave a talk on the synagogue, and I gave a talk a -- by the end of [indecipherable] I told them I'm going to Volary for the 50" anniversary, I'm invited by the mayor of the city since I was there in the hospital with those girls, I was the only boy between 120 girls, and I am going back there. Suddenly I hear bursting out to cry, a young lady start to cry. So I walked over to her and I says, why are you crying? She says, my mother's sister died there. So -- and she told me the story, and she told me who were they and this and this and this, how old. So Interview with Morris Rosen 8 August 5, 1999

when I came home, was 10:30 at night, I called up Suzanna Budzelis(ph), she worked with me in the archives in [indecipherable]. I said, Suzanna, can you tell me the names of the girls, if you have anything? Oh yeah, they were three sisters, everything, they -- th-th -- this and this -- they -- they [indecipherable] on this, and I called up 12 o'clock this woman, she is the wife of a rabbi. I don't know, they were younger. I says, look, they registered older to be safe, not to send them to the crematorium but to a war. And we became good friends. But when I came back from Volary, I brought the pictures of the grave and I gave her the pictures. And then she told me her aunt lives in New York, another aunt. So I took the number, I called her up. I says --I called up, she didn't remember anything. I says, so you don't remember I came there? You were there? I was the only boy. I says, the only boy what was there, his name was Moniek. I told her Morris, that's why she [indecipherable]. And he brought me chocolate for -- for us every day with oranges, yes, that's me. And she burst out crying. And we became the best friends that all the time she calls me, every holiday. Well, I'm going to continue. We were there for not too long, about eight weeks. A lot of the girls went back home, one of the girls [indecipherable] we go back to Poland [indecipherable] which I liked it, I didn -- no, I'm going to stay. So one of the girls, Regina Chepelska(ph), she is from Sosnowiec, says Moniek, let's go somewhere, we all the time here, let's go http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen *deg August 5, 1999 visit other cities. Okay. We went on the train and we came to Zvolin(ph), a city.

The train wouldn't go no further because it was demolish, you know, the railroad tracks have a thing, stopped here and we had to walk. And this was about one o'clock in the morning. And we didn't know where to go. We asked somebody where can we go to sleep over, an hotel or something, and it was the motorman from the train. He had the bike, he ro -- he took her -- since she was a young girl we told them we were brother and sister, cause we were afraid, we are from camp. He took her on the bike, he walked with them, we walked for about five kilometers. We arrived about -- after two in the morning. He woke up a 80 year old mother, he woke up, make some fire and some food, they are from camp, they are hungry, you got to give them food. We were shocked. So first of all she got up, made fire and put up for a soup. And she made the heavy -- where you wash clothing, you know, you laundry. You put hot water in the laundry, wash yourself, yeah. We washed.

ourselves, gave clean towels, everything. We sat down at the table with a tablecloth, gave us soup, and then she gave us a room with beds, we went to sleep. In the morning he said he wanted to adopt. He was a bachelor and no kids, no nothing, he wanted to adopt her. And to -- with me, he says, you are going to be here and he took me right away, what do you know, what kind pro-professionally. I said, well, I was painting at camp, in the ghetto. Good. He took me to a factory where they make Interview with Morris Rosen 27 August 5, 1999

toys and I painted toys, designs and everything what was outlined, painted in different colors. I was there for three days and she -- and he gave me a room ina hotel which -- enough money to pay, I made enough money to pay, it wasn't too expensive. And she was behind there, he wanted to adopt her. I says, Regina, I'm going back somewhere, because I met someone, another Jewish guy there, we are going to go. Okay, we will meet up. So I said goodbye to her and I went back to Volary. She came back two days later. I asked the Rabbi Katzner(ph) to check, I says, do me a favor. Can you find out about the Jewish girls, Bella(ph) Sigler(ph) and the others? I told [indecipherable] they are from this transport, they [indecipherable] in the hospital. He says, I go today. He came back a couple hours later, all four died. All four girls died from typhus. And I was very sad about it. And then my brother-in-law came, he found me. He says, I told you I'm going to find you. We were there for days, he went [indecipherable] you stay with them, I'm going to Salzburg. Couple days later came a order that they have to leave the -- that the Russian army is going to take over Volary, and the Germa -- and the American army had to evacuate. So the army, the American army came with three trucks, they took us by trucks to Salzburg. We arrived there because there was already men, the women separate to the Riedenburg caserna(ph), and the girls didn't want to even know, Moniek is going to stay with us. He is to with us in the same -- in the same ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Morris Rosen 8 August 5, 1999 room, slept there and everything. They made a curtain just for me to sleep. We won't go in without Moniek. So I was there for two days with them and I says no, it's no use, I have to go where the men sleep, I can't be with you. But we became very close. We -- particularly we -- about eight girls and me, which consider like brother, sister. That's how we loved each other, not as boy - girl. You know, two of them were from my city, one was an -- one of the youngest girls, I won't mention the name, you know, in case they don't like it, I don't know if I should or not. I can tell the names, one was Rozia(ph) Szalinga(ph) from Tarnow, Lidi(ph) Zilbigger(ph) from Auschwitz. Was Halinka(ph) Goldberg, she was from Czestochowa, [indecipherable] from Benzburg(ph), Halla(ph) Malnavitsa from Dabrowa. Cheva(ph) Chet(ph) from Dabrowa [indecipherable] what the sister died there, and my best -- my best friend's sister, to our -- we held ourself very close.

And we were -- then they transported over to New Palestine. We had the [indecipherable] we were in the DP camp New Palestine, Salzburg. And sudden they ask me can they go, we are going for dances, they all time ask me can we go, come along. So I went with them and we went to Ebensee and [indecipherable].

There were some survivors from other camps, from Mauthausen. So we went there because they have dances, I went there with them. We had a good time, we came back. As I came back, somebody told me, your brother's here. That I found my Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999

younger brother, Josef. He came from hunger -- from Budapest. He was with another guy from my city and woke him up during the night, I couldn't recognize him, cause he was all kinds of skinny. He was blown up. [indecipherable] can be very blown up from all the soups they ate [indecipherable] everything, you know, from camp. He was in Auschwitz and then Gintagruber(ph) and the death march.

He was liberated in fact, the 11" of May, two days after the war. They found him there with the SS wandering. And for over a thousand people there were only 14 that remained alive. My older brother, Srulek(ph) and him. And you can imagine how happy and everything. Then about a week later came my best friend what I told you the [indecipherable] he was in Bergen-Belsen, he came pi -- to pick up his sister [indecipherable] he is alive. And I was there til "46. In "46 I had the -- the -- my sister, my older sister Rucheia, which she escape to the Soviet Union from the ghetto out. She's in Regensburg, so I went there to Regensburg, I saw her and I said, let's go move to Vidin(ph), I should go over there and come. So we [indecipherable] Salzburg, we smuggled ourselves to the border. And I forgot to tell you that in my room in Salzburg, I have three rooms, and I was with my brother and another guy that worked in the kitchen, from the UNRRA kitchen that we had the food in the camp. And every night I have guests in my room, which they probably half [indecipherable] from Germany to smuggle them over to Italy and ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Morris Rosen *deg August 5, 1999 go to Palestine. And in fact I went with them twice to the border, to Ironing(ph), Frylass(ph) and [indecipherable], also over some of the people, so it was a transition camp, because I went to sleep by my friends and I gave them the three rooms, food I had enough.

Q: When were you in the DP camps?

A: Was in "45 and "46. And came to Salzburg a young girl with a friend of hers from my city and she told me my sister is alive. That she know. Karla Lunda(ph), yeah. Well, you can imagine, I was there and she went away, she said she is going illegal, she is going with the bubbichar(ph) and we said goodbye, she left me a picture. About a week later I get a telegram from Poland, from a friend from my sister that they both escape together from the death march. Back to Gruenberg they went, to German people they went. And their life, well, that's all I knew. This was the telegram which I still have it, and I'm going to give this to the museum. And when I heard my other sister is alive, so we packed ourself, went to -- with a transport to Ulin, to camp also a DP camp in Ulin(ph). And then we smuggled ourself out from Ulin(ph) because we couldn't go anything without -- from the UNRRA you know what they tell you where to go, this -- and we came to [indecipherable] house where my sister was. And I met my sister, so we got a private room, we lived with my sister together. Her husband was the president from ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Morris Rosen * August 5, 1999 the Jewish community in Vidin(ph) and we have some volunteers in this museum, they were also invited there. My friend from my city William Luxembourg, or Helen Luxembourg if you know. I know them, they were married there and we were good friends there. And I was there for awhile, then my other sister that escaped what I knew she's alive. And what happened why we didn't see her before, when she ran away, she went with the Russian army to Russia to look for my older sister, she knew she escaped to Russia, looking for her [indecipherable]. And then she went back to Danzig with her friend, and then she came -- she came to Vidin(ph) which I met her too. And --

Q: How did she know where to find you? How did you all know how to find each other?

A: How -- what happened -- don't forget at that time, wherever you were in a camp, a DP camp, or you met a friend, leave a note that I am alive. And people [indecipherable]. For instance, the girl, Karla Lunda(ph) [indecipherable] Salzburg, she got somebody in Poland let them know that I am in Salzburg. That's how I got the telegram. And my older brother, he was in Prague, he went in fact to pick up my youngest sister, Bluma from Poland, how, he didn't have anything, you know how it was. And what I forgot to tell you, a very interesting story in Volary, which I go back. Very interesting. I didn't have no shoes, I still walk around in my Interview with Morris Rosen % August 5, 1999

wooden shoes. [indecipherable] So one of the officers, while I walk in the officers" kitchen, he looked at me, he says, hop into the Jeep, come with me Moniek. And -- where we going? You will see. We arrived in [indecipherable], he took me to the station. He knew that the Czech people threw out all the Germans, the same thing like they did to the Czechs, the Germans from the Sudetenland threw out the Czechs, now they threw out the Germans, and they let them have 10 kilo in their bags, that's all they were allowed to take. So we saw there a lot of people with boots and everything. He goes over to one, a ex-German officer, maybe it was an SS man, take off your boots. Put them on Moniek. About on the fifth person, they fit good. He took my wooden shoes, gave them. You took away more from him. He wore this for many years, now you can wear them. Then he took away the camera from him, with film. He says, you took away more from him than a camera. And with this camera I took pictures in the hospital with the girls there. I took about 80 pictures, I have so much film. And the historical pictures from the girls laying in the hospital, the girls [indecipherable] which they -- now you can see them in the museum, which I gave a whole book fr -- just from Volary with my friends being in bed sick, they are now there, these historical pictures. That's what I forgot to tell you. When we were in Salzburg, I forgot to tell you, I went to see the girls when they went dancing there with their friend. And going to Barbishel(ph), we stopped http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen %8 August 5, 1999 in Ebensee. And another triangle, which the trains divided, one train went to Linz, one the directions that I have to go, and one to [indecipherable]. And when I stood there, we went in there to the men's room, it was outside, they didn't have no, you know, in the stations. As I walk out from there, in come there, stood at the train comes a German policeman with me -- with a invalid -- a POW, a German POW on one foot. And he said, you took this man's vallit(ph), which is release papers, a POW, money, everything. I says, are you crazy? Well, you just came out there from the toilet, and he was there. And he wanted to take out everything from pocket and my -- my other friend were a big guy. He says, you are going to tell me what to do?

Damn Nazi, he called him, and he wouldn't do it. So he called the MP. The MP, come with us. He took us in a Jeep to the constable, you know. I come in there, was a officer and a officer at the desk. Beautiful, tall guy, handsome as can be. Take out everything from the pockets. I took out from the pockets. Why do you have American scrip? Are you on black market? I says, I work for the American army and they pay me with scrip and that's what I have. He took it away on the side.

Then I have what an American soldier gave me, a Jewish soldier in Volary. This Yankee division, the Y. He took this away. And he saw pictures that I'm with the soldiers, with the girls, the American soldiers, this he left me. I says, how come you have so many coupons, for bread and this, you know, for ya -- I says, it happened to http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen * August 5, 1999 be that I am with eight girls and I do the buying and I do everything for them, and that's why I have so many coupons here. Didn't believe me. They took us away to a prison. We come into the prison on third floor, there are Nazis there. Locked up.

We started banging at the door, what it is. I says, we just came out from the Nazis and they put us like that. There were German guards there, by the way [indecipherable]. So they took us on the second floor, who was there? Prostitutes.

Still better. Yeah, locked up. So, we had to sleep in the hall, they don't have no other place, and we were there three days. They -- I gave them the information that I am in Salzburg, in New Palestine, gave them there everything information. They took three days to find out who we are and if we are live there, if we tell the truth.

Three days. After three days with the Jeep they come and they took us back to the -- to the station. There was my stuff he gives me back, but the scrip and the Yankee division [indecipherable] and he give us for the trouble two carton cigarettes. I took the cigarettes, stepped them down and I spit in his face. I says, you damn Nazi, you put me with the doxies in camp. Well, what he's going to do to me? And I spit in his face. And -- but this was far to go to the station, wait, if somebody go. We don't need your help, you worse than the Nazis -- because it's after the war -- and we walked out. What that incident happen, that coming back from Barbishel(ph), I walked into the same toilet. I said, let me look. Maybe he lost that son-of-a-gun Interview with Morris Rosen 8 August 5, 1999 there. And there was a big stall where you stepped on it -- you sit on it -- to-- you know --- and I see something sticking out, and it was his portfolio under the stall, he lost it. I threw it and I didn't even look anything, I threw it into the toilet right away.

But what's interesting, that was the first high holidays, Rosh Hashonah in Salzburg. And they -- they took in the [indecipherable] where they have the [indecipherable] there for the American soldiers, the Rainbow division what they called it. They had services for the high holidays. So displaced persons came for the high holidays for the first time. I sit down there -- I came with one of the girls, and sit down and I look at that beautiful dressed -- that son-of-a-gun that send me to the prison, to the Nazis, that was behind the desk. And I looked up at him, you Nazi, you in the synagogue? And I looked at him, and I walked away and went all the way to the back. He look at me, and I walked over again. You get out from the synagogue, you Nazi. He -- he didn't answer anything. They weren't nice. That's that -- that's what hurts still today, that it hurts. And he didn't know what to answer.

He probably did his duties, but he should at -- understand better, with Jewish prisoners where he sent, and took three days to found. Well, anyway, I was in Vidin(ph). Then -- then was transports there and there came a gentleman by the name of Haskell(ph) Gansfy(ph), and he came from camp to camp, DP cam-camp, to take people [indecipherable] to go to Palestine, to fight for Israel, to go to Interview with Morris Rosen deg August 5, 1999 Palestine with, you know, wi-with the underground and you're going to be in Palestine. So my youngest sister went. And it happened that she went on the Exodus. She went with friends and friend she met -- the same person Yehaskel(ph) Benzef(ph), wi-- they got on board and they were on the Exodus, when -- she told me stories, they came to Palestine, they had to go back. When she came back she was first in Aachen, and from Aachen she came back to Vidin(ph), naked [indecipherable] because when he left we bought her clothing, everything, she only had one dress, that's all. We had to buy her everything new again, and she was there End of Tape One, Side B Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999 Beginning Tape Two, Side A

Q: -- uation of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum volunteer collection interview with Morris Rosen. This is tape two, side A, and you were telling me about your sister who had been on the Exodus --

A: Yes.

Q: -- and who'd been returned.

A: Yes.

Q: Please continue.

A: And then she had to go back because they -- she got a note that she got to come back because there was hope that they're gonna go to Palestine, evident, so we bought her new clothing, everything and she went back and in fact they went -- they were the first ones, because from the Exodus people had priority even from Cyprus, that they went first. And she met her husband there on the ship, which they got married, they went to Palestine, and of course he went right away to war there when he arrived, cause he was a officer in the Russian army. And then my o -- when Israel became a state, my other sister, Mrs. Beilauer(ph) which [indecipherable] name was, and he left Vidin(ph), he was the president from the Jewish community, he left Vidin(ph) and I have pictures of course, how with flowers the whole community there send her off, and they went to Israel. And then I heard news that a Interview with Morris Rosen 8 August 5, 1999

good friend of mine lived with me in Vidin(ph), he was Shlamik(ph) Merin(ph) from Benzburg(ph) [indecipherable] that when he went illegal to Palestine through Marseilles, and he -- he got off the ship, in the first [indecipherable] he didn't even see anything of Israel that he got killed. They send him toward Jerusalem, he didn't even see his -- anything. And I still have the death announcement from the paper, from the Jewish paper, I still have it at home. And so we supposed to go also to Israel, Palestine. So my brother said, look here, we lived through a war. We lost so much from our family. We have two aunts in New York, my father's sisters. If we go to Palestine, we can't go to America later. If we in America we can all time go -- time go to Israel. So we decided we are going to go wait out, and we got affidavits from my aunts, and with the help from the HIAS, we came to Bremen, it was October, this was two days before Rosh Hashonah. We came to New York, and what happened, we have to get inoculation against all kind diseases, everything. And since I was all the time fainting from the needle and everything, all in my possession I have this 50 dollar, that's all what I have. I gave the nurse in Bremen the 50 dollar, please mark that everything is there, I was petrified for the needle. She took it, wrote everything down, I took all the needles, everything.

Q: Before I have you leaving Europe --

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen *deg August 5, 1999

A: Yeah.

Q: -- can you tell me for a few moments --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- what were the conditions like in the DP camp? Tell me about life in the DP camp.

A: Life in the DP camps, it wasn't bad. It depends where you were. For instance, New Palestine. We were very close-knit from the camp. We -- we knew each other, we went out dan -- that we had dances there, and pa -- especially I went to -- in Salzburg, I went to every new show, any new operetta. What happened, you couldn't get tickets there, they were very hard. But, if you bribe the cashier, you have it. I bought her soap, I bought a stocking, which I got from the UNRRA. Soap, I gave her. So from the soap, other things, I got tickets. Every time when a new show came, I had several tickets, as many as I want. And at the -- almost every day I went out somewhere, cause in camp, there was a lot to do [indecipherable] but I had to go out, I liked to go out and what I missed out right during the war as a youngster, I want to catch up. And I met several girls there, which of course one wanted to get married, but I said not in the DP. And I wouldn't do it, I--I not going to have a handout from the UNRRA. This was a Hungarian girl from Budapest.

Very beautiful, intelligent girl. Anyway, she went to Palestine, she oh -- from the

Interview with Morris Rosen "" August 5, 1999

ship she send me [indecipherable] even a letter, which I still have it, with the other things. But she went to Palestine, I came to United States.

Q: What kinds of things did the survivors talk about in the DP camps?

A: Well, most of them about parents, about what they went through, everybody [indecipherable] through. And we had the paper there that we gave out a lot, and a lot of people wrote articles also. And th -- we liked to make out for the lost time.

That's what's about it. What I tried -- what I forgot to mention, right after the liberation, this was the worst time in my life, right after the liberation, cause during being in the camps, all what I thought is how to survive. Always I was thinking is only to survive, and we didn't think anything about back home or anything. You didn't have time to think. But after the liberation, then came back, where do I go? I don't see my parents. This one's missing, that one's missing. Then I realize, I became again a person, with my mind and this was the worst time, and I was very, very nervous. And even when I came to the United States, for the first three years, all I did is taking pills and pills and pills til one doctor told me, you want to live?

Put away the pills. You can do without them. Then I made up my mind and I stopped taking the pills, and I -- and I start living a normal life. But this was in the United States.

Q: I'm curious as to what kinds of pills. What kinds of pills?

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen * August 5, 1999

A: I forgot. This was in the 50's. What was it for nerves, the pills that they gave?

Q: Some kind of sedative?

A: Sedative. But what got me that the doctor even charged me for every pill. He had it as samples and he charged me 10 cents for each pill.

Q: When did you first come to realize the full extent of the genocide?

A: Well, I knew in camp already what happened to my parents. In camp, because a transport in deg44 came from Auschwitz to our camp, and it was a -- and it was one from our city [indecipherable] Levenstein(ph). And he says, oh your father's alive because they have it good in Auschwitz, because they were in [indecipherable] and because they had a little bit more food, yeah. And for him it was good, but the parents, they're not alive, and he told me about the burning and everything and the extermination. So I knew already this, I knew everything. But we didn't know to what extent. I couldn't believe at that time to what extent, because here, okay, there were killings in the camp and everything, but we didn't see, in our camp was no burn or extermination, anything, it just that people died from hunger and from beating. And I was very good at that. I never got the beating, only once, because I was short and I never stood in front in the lines, all the time the middle, and all ki -- picked tall guys that they should be in front of me. When they hit I was all time Interview with Morris Rosen % August 5, 1999

bend down and I n--I never got hit. I was selfish. But everybody looked to survive, that's what it was.

Q: Before you leave Europe, is there anything else about the years after the war, while you were still in Europe that you would like to -- to cover, to talk about?

Q: Well, about being in Europe, I just hated Europe, I wanted to get out from the bloody soil, especially from Germany. I wanted to get out, but we had to wait, we didn't have where to go to Poland. We couldn't go back because a lot of killing was going Poland. And then it wa -- I was too much hurting, going back to the city there, which I never wanted to go back. And then finally my time came, yes, what I wanted to know, right after the liberation, when my friend Moniek Sheps(ph) came to pick up his sister, Sheva(ph), which was in Varamoltso(ph), he told me that a good friend of ours, Moniek Nifel(ph), that he is in Bergen-Belsen very, very sick.

So I left everything there and went by train, went to Bergen-Belsen. I found him still alive. We talked, he cried, I am very sick. And of course this was under British occupation. Would he be under United States occupation, hundred percent he would be alive. Under the British, didn't get medication, not the proper care, anything. And he expired there, unfortunately. And a lot of people there, if they would be under the American occupation, they would do more. The British weren't interested in anything to help out. That's what I wanted to mention about it. And http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen 8 August 5, 1999 they're known for it. And then what was going on, we marched there, we protested a lot. I don't know if you remember with Belvin(ph), they didn't let the Jewish people to Palestine, we protested, and we wrote in. I wrote a letter also to the United Nations, which I still have copies of it. Not [indecipherable] but then the Exodus ship and everything, I think that's what helped Israel to become a nation.

Q: Did you follow the Nuremberg trials while you were in Europe?

A: Yes, because my brother-in-law, my sister's husband, he was a Jewish, the only Jewish correspondent from the DP camps, in fact, and he covered all the Nuremberg trials. I was there six times because he took -- he was able to take along as guests two people. And I gave one to the museum and I still have one of the entry cards. And I saw everybody there. The sessions, I even have the numbers of the sessions there. Nuremberg was everything demolish except the building where the tr -- the international tribunal was there, was standing. And in fact, I was -- this year also there, I went back to the [indecipherable] cause I exhibited Nuremberg my exhibit this year, and I went to the courthouse there. I took even pictures how it looks now, I recognized the buildings right away when I came there.

Q: You said you saw everybody there. What do you mean you saw everybody there? Were you there for the main trial, or for the subsequent proceedings?

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999

A: I went for the main trial. I saw Goering, Keitel, everybody and when I saw on television the things I was looking if I can see my brother-in-law there, because he had good connections with Redenko, which it was the Russian prosecutor. And he tried to listen to the American prosecutor there, in fact, we had breakfast with Redenko, which I am sorry I never took a picture, he was very good friend with him, yes. And in fact, my brother-in-law was one of the first ones that wrote a book about [indecipherable] like sheep to the slaughter, in the 50's. And he wrote a lot of articles in the Jewish papers and a lot of articles to the [indecipherable] that he covered the -- the trials. But he never got any money or anything, he never ask for money or anything. Yes, and -- and now we want to know about me coming to United States.

Q: Yeah, one more question still in-- in Europe.

A: Yeah.

Q: You said that you protested when you were in Europe. Can you tell me about the movement in the DP camps for the partition of Palestine?

A: Yes.

Q: What was going on, what was the politics of that.

A: Well, the politics of that, that in every DP camps we screamed and we wrote articles, we send away to United Nations that we lost everybody, we live still on ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Morris Rosen % August 5, 1999 the bloody soil, that we can't walk on it to go back to Poland. We can't, they killing Jews again. And we don't have no place to go. The only place we want is to have our own Jewish homeland, and that was that. I remember one act in Salzburg which I can never forget. There was two cousins, they survived the war, and one of them had a carton of cigarettes with him. And the [indecipherable] policeman ask him what he have here. He didn't want to show him and he es -- he ran away. As he ran away, he shot him dead. And at that time, all the DP camps, Linz, Ebensee, all around Austria, from Polking(ph), they wanted to come here and do something, damage to Salzburg. And the [indecipherable] police, because it was a policeman that shot him, and the MP, hide away. They covered every road leading to Salzburg, trucks or cars, because a lot of trucks came with DPs from Linz. There were partisans a lot, that they used to be partisans. They came with hammers, they came even with weapons, what everything, and we wanted to do something to demolish Salzburg. And they knew about it. So when the funeral came, they shipped back the people, they didn't let him in [indecipherable] they didn't let them, they stood at the train stations. They didn't let no -- no DP person, no Jewish person into Salzburg. And they covered the whole funeral march, we were cordoned off by the military police. We had to go in the middle of the road, they didn't let nobody out. And we couldn't -- we couldn't let out our anger to anything.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen %deg August 5, 1999 But we came to the cemetery, there was one house, which it was the caretaker's, I think, and we put the house to fire. Which, I have pictures from the funeral, they're here in the museum, which I gave them. We attended the funeral, I will never forget this. And that policeman, he ran away from Salzburg, cause we said we are going to kill all the police there. But, we couldn't do anything. There were the happenings, what was. I remember coming to Munich. In the Munich was a march, which I still have the papers, which the Germans show what the Jews did there. They also starting demonstrating and -- and beating up some Germans and things. And -- because it was near Dachau, they wanted to march to Dachau, they didn't allow.

But I heard demonstrations in Munich from displaced person people, they came from all over. And I used to go from camp to camp if I can meet anything. That's was the main thing. I went to Feldafing, I went to Landsberg, I went to Erfort(ph), which I found in each camp some old friends, people from our city. I met at this station in Frankfurt, a young girl, used to be friends with my sister, and she gave me a picture, in fact, from her sister on it, and another one a neighbor and my niece. And this picture was in the Red Cross, on the pamphlets advertising the Red Cross, the Holocaust [indecipherable] and I gave it also here to the museum.

And that's the stories. Wherever I came, I met some people. And finally, when we had the chance to go to the United States, I said I had enough. I don't want to see http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999 any more Germany or anything and I would never go back. And came to the United States. When I came to the United States, the first thing is I went to my aunts. They waited for me, we came with the [indecipherable] ship. And everybody got sick, seasick, throw up. I think I was the only one walking around laughing, and I was the only one eating. When nobody could eat food, I was the only one. I had with me two watches that I took along to have some. So one of the crew people says, they going to arrest you, you can't have two watches. He just wanted one watch. He gave me 20 dollar, which the watch cost me over a hundred, and I had to give it up. But then I talk, I was foolish, I was just taken, it was too late.

Two days before we arrive to United States, what everybody got already well, when you should have see the screams in the morning on the ship. Everybody was laying on the decks, on the floor, why did I come to die on the sea? Why couldn't we die there in Europe? That's was the feeling of everybody. When everybody got well, even my brother got well, I came with my brother together, I got start on getting sick. So I didn't have a good arrival in New York. When came to New York, my two aunts waited for me already with my brother. And I can never forgive them, they were so nice, too nice, they want to do something for us. We didn't even go home, straight from the ship she went Fifth Avenue, bought for my brother, myself, hats with silk shawls, with shirts. Wanted me to try on a suit, I was http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection 48 Interview with Morris Rosen August 5, 1999 sick like dog still. And I couldn't tell them anything, they wanted to be nice and we came to the house, it was on the -- prepared a big dinner. And right away, you are gonna be my children, you are not going to work any more in your life no more.

You are going to live with us, you don't have to put a finger in cold water, which I didn't like it, I like to be independent. I stood there with my brother for two weeks.

Then I went for one week to my nephew. What I forgot to tell you, my nephew, it's my older sister's son, he was in Vienna, translator to General Clark, and then he was translator for the American army in Vienna. In Vienna as you know, there were all four, the Russians, the French, the English and the Americans. So every morning they have all four on one she -- if you saw on the newsreel something. And he was the one, whenever they gave him orders what to do, where to go, he translated him in French, into English, into German. And I have a lot of pictures him translating everything when they have the meetings, and he was the translator there as a young boy. I mean, I was very proud of him. Once he came to Salzburg with a young girl, she was only 14 years or 15 years old, Herta(ph) Weiss(ph). She was in Stutthof in camp, in Riga in camp, which was written a book and the picture her father, that her father got shot there. It's a whole story, a separate story about her. And he came to me, introduced me that we are going to get married. I says, you're crazy, he's a kid. Fell in love with her. He traced her all the way from http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen deg August 5, 1999 Budapest with her mother here. And he was -- later on he found out through a friend, a Russian major, he says, Tom -- his name is also Moniek, after my grandfather's name, but he changed his name. Tom, now, he says, you got to escape, because the Russians wanted to take you over to the Soviets. At that time they caught, you know, a lot of people, special kind of people, and so right away he let know his superiors, was during the night, it didn't take five minutes, they cordoned off the [indecipherable] where he lived, Jeeps with military and they brought him over to Munich. From Munich him and his wife right away to the United States. And, went to United States, first job was -- his first job was going from the army camp to army camp in the States, he got 50 dollar for each talk, then he said, I got sick of these things and everything. He went to work for the HIAS, and then he wanted to go to the Columbia University. At that time, 47, they didn't take many Jews to Columbia, and of course as a refugee, so he wrote a article in the paper and the director from Columbia called him up. He -- after talk with him, he was accepted. He was accepted and he was accepted and for international law, and then si -- going seven years. He made it in three years with scholarships and when I came to the States I stood with him, also for a week, which they were so nice to me, everything. And then I said I got to get away from New York, cause my aunt said you are not going to work no more. Every day she tried to buy me thing http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen *deg August 5, 1999 and everything, I want to be independent. And I have the older brother, which lived in Palestine, and he married a girl from Baltimore, that they came back when the war broke out in "48, they have two sons. Since she was a United States citizen she was scared. They burned -- they burned their store in Jaffa, they were the only Jewish people in Jaffa, the Jewish store, in back, and so I came to Baltimore.

Q: When did you come to New York, and when did you come to Baltimore?

A: I came to New York in September.

Q: What year?

A: And this was in "49. September 49, I came. And I remember I went -- was Rosh Hashanah time that I went for the first time to the synagogue, which I couldn't get a ticket and then this, you know, but who cared if we stood and prayed outside the synagogue? And then I came to Baltimore, was about six weeks later, I didn't want to stay any more there, although I could have gotten a job in New York and I was introduced to someone in New York, | [indecipherable] about it. And I came, was -- was around November 1949, I came to Baltimore.

Q: When you came to this country, to New York and to Baltimore --

A: Yeah.

Interview with Morris Rosen *t August 5, 1999

Q: -- I wanted to know what your first impressions of this country were, and I wanted to also know what impression you made on the Americans. So can you talk about the different impressions?

A: Yes. Well, first of all, my impression was tremendous. What I failed to tell you -- I told you that my aunt took me right away out to Fifth Avenue, and after dinner I was so tired out I couldn't sleep for a month. She took us to Radio City Music Hall the first evening. And I was so ashamed because I was afraid to fall asleep and every minute I fell asleep, even at this beautiful show that I never saw such a big theater, it made such impression on me, that's the one in the world, the Radio City Music Hall. And here I had to sleep, and after that, after we walked out from there, half asleep so tired, she took us to Lindy's. And I couldn't eat because I felt more like giving everything out, I was still sick. And after Lindy's, we finally came home. And I brought with me, that I bought a set of dishes from [indecipherable] German dishes. When I looked the things that she had in her home, I was ashamed.

I was ashame I brought such a junk, I [indecipherable]. So during the night I went with my brother and took the whole cage with the dishes and dumped it in the outside, near the dumpster, and blankets and everything. She went out in the morning, says, did you dump anything there? She says, if you don't want it, I take.

Such a beautiful dishes and you dump? We was -- we were ashamed that this is

Interview with Morris Rosen * August 5, 1999

garbage, we didn't want -- yeah, but she's -- she had the [indecipherable] yes. And

Q: What kinds of things did Americans ask you about your war experiences and what kinds of things did you choose to tell them?

A: Well, they ask me when I came over here, first of all I told them I'm a painter, because [indecipherable] some. My brother, he spent all the money what we had in Germany, and he learn typewriting machines to fix. And all the money what we had except the 50 dollar that I spent -- I gave the nurse, I spent on the newest, most modern equipment to make parts for machines -- for typewriting machines. Well, we came here, so I got right away a job, I took a job in painting, because I knew painting, which I got, by the way, 18 dollar a week. My brother couldn't get a job.

He called up Remington, says oh yeah, we need mechanics. When he came there, they found out he is Jewish, oh no, we don't have anybody. So they wouldn't take Jewish people there, Remington. So he went to the HIAS, they got him a job through Ebertz(ph) machine on balt -- on Baltimore Street -- on Fayette Street in Baltimore. When he came down there he came with his tools and everything, he said he's -- he got his license, that he's one of the best mechanics, worked several years in Germany, paid money, went -- so he said, well, we don't need such a mechanics. You see the shelves here? If something is missing, you see the

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen *S August 5, 1999 numbers? We have parts, everything. We don't need [indecipherable]. It made him feel like two cents. So he got 12 dollar a week for his work. He [indecipherable] up. And it was very often [indecipherable]. I cried every day, I wanted to go back.

First of all, I didn't know nobody. Then when I had an apartment to get in, so s -- there I work -- I didn't want to stay by my brother, because the sister-in-law wasn't so well, she was an American, she had a different view and everything, and -- and I saw that I am not welcome, so I said, I want right away an apartment. So the first apartment wen -- my brother said, okay here, it's -- we looked in the paper. It was a shoemaker's store, on the back of the store there was [indecipherable]. So I says, I didn't come to the United States and live like this, worse than even a camp, near a shoemaker with the smell and everything. I went on my own and I found a room. I found a nice room there and we moved in right away. This was Sunday morning, we went right away to Reed's(ph) drugstore, we bought pots and pans. We went right away there to the grocery store, this was our cook meal the first day, on our own. The landlady was very nice, and Friday evening when she baked the cakes and everything, right away she brought in [indecipherable] which in the next morning it went to the garbage can. We were -- I don't know, we were so that from somebody's hands we didn't want to touch. It was foolish, but that's how we were, very particular, that only on our own. And it was very, very tough on me. First of all Interview with Morris Rosen "4 August 5, 1999 I had to go, I didn't know not a word of English. So I had to go to school, so I went to night school. After work nine, 10 hours a day, cause I wanted to get more hours [indecipherable]. Then my brother worked there, he only made 12 hours -- 12, I think. After working for somebody, what happened that the men what we worked couldn't mix the color for a person for a [indecipherable] that she wants a particular color. And of course I knew colors very good and everything. So as he went -- as he went to get material -- as he went to get material, I mix for her the color. Oh, that's exactly what I want. When he came back, she says, I want him to do mixing the colors, everything. And she told me, why don't you go on your own?

I says, I don't know nobody, I don't know the language or anything. She says, I give you a customer. So I quit them and I got the customer on my own. From 18 dollar, right away that she offered me 60. From 18 to 60 dollar, cause [indecipherable] a mechanic. So he says no. You didn't pay me right away, I don't do it. And I walk myself up. Then I --

Q: [have to interrupt you, we have to change the tape.

A: Yeah.

Q: One moment.

A: How many --

End of Tape Two, Side A Interview with Morris Rosen degdeg August 5, 1999 Beginning Tape Two, Side B

Q: -- United States Holocaust Memorial Museum volunteer collection interview with Morris Rosen. This is tape two, side B and you were telling me about the -- basically branching now out on your own, professionally.

A: Yes, yes. Then I went on my own to work, and I took my brother right away, we're not going to work for 12 ah -- 12 dollar a week, you are going with me.

Whatever is going to happen, is gonna happen. And it was very tough in the beginning, with my English, although we went to school. And I decided I got to do something with me. First of all we wanted to get a grocery store. At that time almost every survivor went into groceries, because they didn't have [indecipherable]. So while I was working, one of the nicest people was that person who was in charge of the Exodus ship in Baltimore, Mr. Spierd(ph) which he's known. He was the one that brought everything, and the ship was [indecipherable] right in Baltimore. And his wife, she says no, you're too intelligent, you don't want to be a slave in a grocery store. You're not married yet, you won't be able to find a girl. You don't want to be shop. You go to school, continue and do what you're doing, never go to a grocery. And I already had a lawyer and everything, we already got prepared to buy this for everything, and I listened to her. Instead, I enlisted, I went to the Maryland Institute of Art, to the art school. I went seven years to the art school http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen *deg August 5, 1999 for interior design. I first graduated -- honest, I was the only one in the ever class ever to get the medal, usually they give the medals for day school. I couldn't go day school, I had to make a living. Worked during the day. I went post-graduate at seven years. Then the teacher told me, you have talent, I send you -- which might not cost you for scholarship, to New York. But what happened -- and meanwhile I got married already --

Q: How did you meet your wife?

A: I met my wife at a blind date. And before I come to this, I want to tell you I was miserable for the first year in the United States. I didn't know nobody. Baltimore was like a little town. Every weekday -- every Friday evening when I got my pay, when I had money, I ran to the train right away, and New York because I have a lot of friends. Baltimore was a little town. If you want to go out with somebody, you have either to know them -- you couldn't go to a dance like New York on your own, you have to belong somewhere, wasn't as -- even school, I was all the time called here comes the greenhorn. I wasn't received not at all good. I went to the synagogue on a Saturday, all the ti-- oh, here's the greenhorn. I came for a sundae to a drugstore [indecipherable] made fun because I didn't know so good English. So I let them have it in German, and I said, it's miserable. They didn't treat the newcomers at all good at that time. The American people were not at all Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999

[indecipherable]. They -- they treat us like third class, and I mean third class, that I wanted to go back to Europe. But, with the time I met my wife. I met her in deg53, we went for a year time. I met her already in 52. We went over a year time, and then March 31 we got married, to a Baltimorean girl, so was a little different. And I work myself up, and I was looking for an apartment before, which it was very hard to get apartments because people thought we are going to have kids, they didn't want [indecipherable]. And I worked there by a builder, na -- and at that time, and I finish a job early, so I went there to look for work for my own, to another builder.

When I came in, he asked me what I am looking this house, [indecipherable] was there a painting contract? And I couldn't say that I am looking for -- for paint. So I says, I am interested in a home buying. Okay. I ask him how much. It was 18 and a half thousand dollar home. And at that time thousand dollar, who had that kind of money [indecipherable]. Then I [indecipherable] suppose I don't finish this, and this I will do on my own, not only my own painting, but finishing off a lot of the walls and the bathrooms, knocked off this and this. He came down to about 15 and a half thousand dollar. Then I worked for this builder at that time, I did -- for his private home, and I told him, he says, oh, he's a friend of mine, let me go. He came to him, he says, do something for him, and this and this. So he knocked it down another 1500 dollar. So I said, instead of paying rent somewhere, looking for a

Interview with Morris Rosen degdeg August 5, 1999

house, I gave a down payment. And I said, I am buying this home. On a Saturday I took a ride, I took my future wife, I wasn't married then [indecipherable] who can dream [indecipherable] home. This was the first semi-detached homes in Baltimore, beautiful. I said, this is yours, this is a present, she couldn't believe.

And I didn't have money for furniture, anything. And I had everything together with my brother. One bankbook. It didn't matter what he makes, what a -- I mean, when we split up, when we went for our honeymoon to New York, when we came back, I only had money for a bed and this. And of course she got some money from her parents, not much. And my brother, whatever we had money in the bank left, he bought a kitchen set, and he set up a bedroom, and we didn't -- we didn't have any other furniture, but this came piece by piece. And unfortunately -- or fortunately, I should say, I have very expensive taste, which I just wouldn't buy anything, I would -- where I work, this was, I mean there lived the most richest people in -- in Maryland, that's the customers I had. I was never listed in the phone book, I -- this was recommended [indecipherable] I was all the time three, four years lined up with work before, I -- and I didn't go everywhere, I just had a selected clientele.

Then I wanted to go into interior design. Then I found out -- that's what I graduated from -- I didn't go to New York because I have already a home here. Got my wife here, I couldn't -- not start all over again. So, for interior design you got to have a lot http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen ~" August 5, 1999 of money, you got to open a business, you got to have your own material, you got to have a showcase, I just couldn't do. Then I was recommended to interior designer Chambis(ph), which she was the most known in Baltimore, she told me okay, you can. And I said no, I-I am a boss on my own, I'm not going for somebody. So I work myself up all alone, and you know, I hired a lot of men, and then I had my builder's work and I helped out decorating, which I got money for this too, but I could never [indecipherable] for opening my own business for interior design. And I was happier with what I was doing and I was interested in my old hobby, this is philately, stamps, which I started as a youngster six years old. I continued in the United States, this was by coincident. I went downtown Baltimore, I saw a stamp store, it was something familiar to me, and I started again. And I came to join the club in Baltimore, the philatelic club, which I was one of the first Jewish people to join, because at that time there were only doctors and lawyers, only professionals, and I was actually the first one like to join with them. They liked me and I became right a member of the -- there -- the an -- government of the -- of the society. And I started also to put my collections together in topics to exhibit, and I was starting to get known internationally for my exhibit, my work. So --

Q: What exhibit? You need to explain.

Interview with Morris Rosen degdeg August 5, 1999

A: This was philatelic exhibition, which I was specially interested in Olympics. I was all the time following Olympic games in "36. This was the first Olympics that I followed. So, and every morning I went through the paper right away, who won this. I followed everything, and I started collecting Olympic stamps at that time, which I -- every penny I made in Europe, things, I -- I bought stamps, and I was very knowledgeable in it. And I have a good eye on good material to buy, everything. And I assembled one of the best collections, probably, on Olympic history. And I was invited to Europe, | think the first exhibit was in "74 in Israel -- internationally the first, the other ones I exhibited mainly here, which I won a nice prize. Then I was exhibiting other places, in the navy too, I had invitation from the Olympic committee from Italy, to exhibit as an American guest in Rome. They had -- they invited 16 people from around the world, the most known -- most known philatelists and Olympic committee members. First I declined, I don't have time my business. In the philatelic [indecipherable] they told me, this is the biggest honors you can have, and you are going to recline? They send you ticket. Then I --I send a telegram, so right away they send a telegram back to go Philadelphia and go to Washington. I -- from everywhere, tickets, special plane, and I had to take to the Italian embassy my collection, that goes by pouch, you know, which they took along from the embassy, they took my collection there, and I was treated royally Interview with Morris Rosen *" August 5, 1999

there. We were about 18 people there, every day special dinners, special things, go out. If I went to the synagogue on a s -- on Saturday, I have a bus for a hundred people going with me, with one person. Of course I took along a Polish guy [indecipherable] and a German guy, which they went with me, they wanted to see the synagogue in Rome. And I was invited for the 95" congress, which was the Olympic congress in -- in Rome, and from then on I got very popular. Then I was invited to most of the international shows, which I was judging also, I became an apprentice judge first, and international. And I went to every Olympic, I was invited free. They paid for my travel, they paid for my hotel, for the food. They gave me pocket money. And I built up my collection through my knowledge, which was one -- one of the greatest Olympic collections in the world. There were only a few -- very few more in this [indecipherable] and I think I was the only in the United States this. And then I was also interesting -- in the 50's I saw a advertising in the German paper, "The Aufbau," about somebody has a [indecipherable] stamp from the ghetto. I was very interesting and I bought a [indecipherable] the first was the Bansburg(ph) ghetto. And | didn't even know it exists, this kind of material in the 50's. And as I went from show to show, I ask [indecipherable] and this, and then I found out that I can buy some material. And I started assembling a collection on ghettos and especially on Holocaust. Which I assembled one of the largest private ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Morris Rosen * August 5, 1999 collection in the world, which I exhibited international, in [indecipherable] Bulgaria, in Spain, in England, in Israel, which I [indecipherable] in Johannesburg. Last year I exhibited and -- this year [indecipherable] in Johannesburg and Israel and I just came from Nuremberg, I exhibited there, I gave several lectures on the Holocaust, and mine collection is very well known, and I write a lot of articles on Holocaust material, and I give a lot of lectures on it. Now I have to put together a collection on concentration camps, and subcamps and forced labor camps, which I have about 8,000 pieces, but I don't have the time to put down. So far [indecipherable] on my ghetto collection, which I'm very happy, and I give a lot of lectures. And in "91 -- in "91, I had a phone call from the Jewish council. They called me up that they starting to open up a Holocaust tracing center in Baltimore, which this is the first center in the United States all over, and Baltimore became the headquarters of it. They called me up, I says, I know, because they know me from exhibits all the time, the JCC, I exhibited in Baltimore the city, whenever it's Yom HaShoah. Okay, I will go over there. They interviewed me there, it was not open yet, but they interviewed me, they locked the door, we don't let you out. You know too much. You be very good for us. You know the languages and you translate [indecipherable]. Okay, since | retired from work, I'm going to do something. So I started and I start to come every day there, then four

63 Interview with Morris Rosen August 5, 1999 times a week. And then, when Gorbachev came to power, you know, they started to open up, you know, on there in the archives from the Holocaust, from Auschwitz, death books and everything. There was a young lady in Baltimore, came to an idea, why don't we open up a center, we can find and something to do for survivors, so on. And Washington [indecipherable] the main headquarter [indecipherable] was. And that's where I started out, I started out from the first day on. Then, when they find anything, so one -- one official that started working on the Holocaust before they opened up, he was -- he let know that Red Cross that we have some important material in Suitland, in the National Archives, that can be used for names and so on for the Holocaust. So we had out about 12 people, twice a week, before they wanted everything twice a week. We had a driver from the Red Cross and took us to Suitland. After just two weeks, Haverford(ph) quit. He couldn't take it, it was too much, you know, when they read the stories, and a lot of them couldn't understand either, because you know, you have to know languages. I decided -- it was very tough on me because everything came back to me. I never wanted to talk about the Holocaust at home, never did. Never to nobody, I never mentioned, I never wanted to watch a picture of the Holocaust, anything to do with it. But here, everything came back on me. Horrible stories. And when I read there some stories, what I thought I went through bad, then I said, I was in the luxurious http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen 4 August 5, 1999 hotel, not in the camp. What people went through, especially -- especially in hiding place. And we remained only a few of them.

Q: I need to interrupt you for one minute.

A: Yeah.

Q: You -- you reference Suitland. Can you please establish on tape what you are talking about? What is Suitland?

A: Yes.

Q: Explain it.

A: Yes. Suitland is the National Archives that's the fourth largest depository and archive from the war in the [indecipherable]. They were -- people come from all over the world to look for archives and everything is there. If you want to see from the Civil War, if you want to see about anything with the Indians, parts of lands, how -- everything's there. But particularly is what we were interested on war material, they have in Suitland 33 tons, and I'm talking tons of material on the second World War, what the American army confiscated from archives in Germany, Italy, Yugoslavia, France and Austria and Czechoslovakia. And we were working, we had there -- the main one from the Red Cross was Suzanne Artivelis(ph), which she is now head from the Christian society in Africa she works. And we -- several people. And we were interested in finding names. What

Interview with Morris Rosen degdeg August 5, 1999

we found in names, the names what we recorded, we put down -- in every section we put in, we put in pieces of paper and then once a month they came and they copied this microfilming, which they gave to the Red Cross and then which it was sent to Germany, to Arlsen(ph), to the archives for the tracing, Holocaust tracing.

If somebody traced, you know, all the time, they sh -- we knew names where they, if they died there or not, but they had them, the names, they're there. And we found that books which we recorded, over 400,000 names, which we gave to president from the Red Cross, Mrs. Dore(ph), it was on television, I think, I discovered a lot of things. But aside to looking for names on the -- as a historian and from my personal things, anything that concerned Judaism, or Jewish thing, important things, because people couldn't read, they just -- th-the American people they didn't know languages, just names and they knew the names and they put in where to copy this.

But I looked through documents, and I had the sharp eye, I just ful -- I knew right away, when I start taking a batch with documents right away, I knew right away what's there, what to look up. Whenever has to something with Jewish history, I copied. I did more spend money there in copying -- copying documents, which thing -- they all are, what are you doing, what are you doing, that I am all tying up the wi -- don't worry. I have my names everything, but besides that, I have assembled over 10,000 Xerox copies from the museum, which a lot of it were not even declassified, Interview with Morris Rosen degdeg August 5, 1999

I declassified thousands and thousands of pieces there. And I came across material that's not known to nowhere. Of course, I'm go [indecipherable]. I -- I have at home that I recorded, over 500 pages of documents that came out from the American embassy in Ankara, Turkey, which has to do with a Jewish question, a request from [indecipherable] from Palestine, and also from the United States with a request to President Roosevelt to rescue 405 rabbis from Europe. In the beginning, he said okay. This was in ninet -- beginning *41, which was already known what's happening in Europe. Of course, he got in touch with Mr. Eden from England. So Eden, right away [indecipherable] anything, you are going to try to rescue 405 Jews? All European Jews are going to come to you. We don't have ships, we have a war going on. What do you need them for? Let's forget it. Well, anyway, it came -- it came then, it came Karski also, it's know what he did here, what's happening, and the [indecipherable] day, I have names written down, who -- who was the representative and everything. Even Steven Weiss was also connected with it. So, he promise -- he promised then, he said, where would [indecipherable] means money. Once they had to send 25,000 pounds, which they send it. 25 pow -- thousand pounds was a lot of money, it was over five dollar a pound at that time.

Then another 15,000 pound. Finally they came up that they have to buy a ship.

There was a ship on the Black Sea, and they had permission from the Turkish

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen *" August 5, 1999 government, when they come to Turkey, to the Black Sea, through Bulgaria, they will let them in only for one night. Then they will go -- go to Palestine. Palestine, the British only allowed them one night to be in there to come to United States. But of c-course, delaying, delaying, you wi -- everything -- you know what happened with the Holocaust, nobody's alive. What we have on record is about 35 rabbis that they came out alive, which they escaped to the Soviet Union. And late in "44, when it was known there are no more Jews, finally Roosevelt gave in. They sent in -- they sent in to all the friendly embassies in Europe, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, if somebody would list the name of the rabbis and if somebody comes here, give him the visa. So we have a undersecretary Long here, which he was a anti-Semite, and he send -- write the letters, before anything, I want to know who they are and what to know. I have all documents home.

Q: Now, I'm -- I need you to clarify something that I'm not --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- quite sure I understand. You said you made copies of these things from the archive --

A: Yes, yes.

Q: -- and you said two things that I--I need you to clarify. One is that you declassified them, and I'd -- Interview with Morris Rosen degdeg August 5, 1999

A: Yeah.

Q: -- like you to explain that.

A: Yeah.

Q: And also you s -- you said that these are now in the museum. What is --

A: [indecipherable] the museum. [indecipherable] in the museum.

Q: Okay, please clarify those two points.

A: I will clarify. First of all, when we looked through, don't forget 33,000 documents, a lot, 90 percent was not declassified yet because nobody came to those documents yet, which I discovered them for the first time. And when I wanted to copy this, I can't copy this til they're now declassified. So I have to go to the head of the archives, he put in a stamp with a little note declassified the date, the day with the year, everything, requested for declassification and then she put on a stamp declassified, and then I could Xerox that, yes. And I have at home at least 5,000 documents which I declassified because nobody saw them before.

Q: And what of your collection --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- is now in the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum?

A: I would say about 60 percent, I have a lot of them, they're not. For instance, the names of the rabbis. I have every name. I have from which synagogue they belong, Interview with Morris Rosen degdeg August 5, 1999 from which county. For instance, they have 105 rabbis from Lithuania, that's about 198 rabbis exact from Poland. They have one rabbi from Estonia, from Latvia, from France, from Germany, from [indecipherable] all Europe. And this documents, I gave a talk on it which I'm go -- I -- in my book that I hope to write, these documents are going to be shown, because a lot of them -- I want to say this [indecipherable] some tape, but a lot of them are not declassified yet, which I have.

So, I'm a little bit scared.

Q: I have seen a few of the things that you have in your possession --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- that are not Xerox copies of documents.

A: Yeah, right.

Q: And they're not stamps.

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: Te --I would like you to -- before I go back and find more about your personal life, as long as we're on this I'd like you tell me about your personal collection of historical artifacts.

A: Yes, yeah, mine personal collection of historical artifacts, especially on the Holocaust. I acquired this through auctions, through dealers. Of course no -- i-in here. And a lot of material, which I realize now, which I got information, was stolen ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999 out from archives in Poland, especially from the Jewish -- from the Jewish Historical Society on the Litzmannstadt ghetto, which I didn't want to buy anything, but there I came to one particular item, which I said if I'm not going to buy, somebody is going to buy. It's -- it's never will go back to the museum anyway. And I know it was stolen out from the museum, but at that time, everybody -- every Pole we had a hand in the museum, what does he think about Jewish things?

There were mostly Gentile people, and they stole them out, but loads of them, suitcases, which they came to United States and they were auctioned off here, and I bought them and I have a lot of documents. I have documents from Hitler also. I have documents from Himmler, signed by Himmler, other things. I bought this at the auctions. I bought in Switzerland. In the 60 -- I was pretty lucky, the original telegram from the Crystal Night, when Crystal Night broke out, when Herschel Grynszpan shot vom Rath in the embassy, it was the f-- one of the first telegrams that came out from Paris, sent to Berlin, and it -- it's a backstamp a picture of Herschel Grynszpan that they sent by wire, backstamp Scheidel(ph). Scheidel(ph) is like Reuter news, this is Scheidel(ph). It's the original telegram that [indecipherable] what they call him, you know, in German. Herschel Seibel Grynszpan, I ever -- never knew that he had a middle name, nobody knew. His name is Seibel(ph), like the original telegram, which they have now a copy in the http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999 museum. O-Of course it's gonna remain later on in the museum, but for time being I hold onto it, but I have copies in the museum. I have other documents. I have documents from SS even, things which were taken away by soldiers, which I got them. Is one picture that I acquired even in Vidin(ph) from a friend of mine, which he personally took away from a German soldier, how they cut the curls, the sidecurls from Jews with the beards, that I have it, all the other documents. And I worked for about seven years in Suitland in the archives, and then they went over to College Park and then I stopped, I didn't have time and I had a drive a day from the Red Cross they supplied, and I did a lot of research there, plus my research that I know. And while I was working there, Bob Casting(ph), he should rest in peace, one of the nicest, most knowledgeable guys probably that this institution ever had, he worked in Suitland in the archives and a lot of times whatever I found, I gave it to him, to Bob. I was introduced, and -- and then he asked me Morris, how about coming over the museum, work for some. This was on a case that he had. So I did, and since then I'm with the museum, working in the archives on a lot of things. And I wouldn't say that I enjoy these things, what I look, who I work on the microfilms, on-- which came out from Poland now in "55, the [indecipherable] they have, which I work already two years on it. And it's not pleasant you -- when you read, but somebody got to do it, and the people that they can translate, that we can do the Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999 stories, if they're not going to do, who is going to do this later? There's Yiddish especially. It's not a dying language, but yet very, very few people know. If it's printed they know, but handwriting, if it's handwritten, which I took along a lot of them, Xerox copies, maybe somebody can help me out, I have so much work. Even to the rabbinical college in -- the college in Baltimore, the rabbi, no, they wouldn't do it, it's too hard because it's fancy Yiddish and this, but I managed to do. And somebody got to do, and I enjoy the people here to work with and I learn a lot through what I read, through -- a person can never say he knows everything. It's -- it's -- it's -- believe me, I have a lot -- a lot to learn to -- to know. But, a lot of things that I learned here, and it's good to know. I wrote many, many articles of this subject, and -- and I have a lot -- in fact I have here an article that I just wrote about Stutthof, the camps in Stutthof, with all archival work documents from my collection, with letters from Stutthof and it's all there for future generations, and I hope to write a book, so for future generations, they can learn a lot about it.

Q: Le-Let's pause and change tape.

End of Tape Two, Side B Interview with Morris Rosen (r) August 5, 1999 Beginning Tape Three, Side A

Q: -- Holocaust artifacts, and I-I'm very curious to ask if you have any idea what the value of this collection is, historically and financially.

A: Yeah, well, historical, it's very va-valuable. I have a lot of unique items in postal history. For instance, I have letters. A letter from Kaiser [indecipherable] which it's the only one known. From [indecipherable]. I have from some ghettoes that the ghettoes were only a hundred Jews, not quite a hundred, I -- from there. I have historical letters, which letters could get out from the ghettoes, the people couldn't get out. And everything was censored there, censored by the Jewish -- by the Jewish council has to be censored. If anything was written there, they were -- they could be punished and even shot. But, you know, in the ghetto slang, which the Germans couldn't understand right. For instance, I have a postcard from mine city, written from an aunt to a niece. And she writes, my liebers(ph) kin, this is mine last writing to you. We expect an Uncle Malchamovis, and I will have to go with them. The Germans thought Uncle Malchamovis is a name.

Q: But --

A: But it's not. Then I --

Q: No, no, please explain.

A: Yeah.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999

Q: What Malchamovis(ph) is.

A: Uncle Malchamovis(ph) is a Hebrew name, the angel of death, so the Germans wouldn't understand what it is. But the person receiving this card knows Uncle Malchamovis what it is, and she knew where she is going. Other letters that I have in ghetto slang, that reveals the panic there, which in fact I'm gonna write now a article about postal history from the g-ghetto during the war, it reveals the pain and the suffering of the Jewish people. With everyone listed in ghetto slang, we have a lot of material on this, of the news how many people got killed there. For instance, you have postcards with a request to a Jewish consul, to a -- the le -- th-the head of the Jewish ghetto, we don't hear from this and this family, can you write? And he says, well, they're buried in this and this cemetery. So how can it be that four people from one family is buried, died in the same day? Must be something. So, as a archivist I look documents, I look through things. I found out on this and this day, they murdered 650 Jews. They put them in the synagogue, and put the fire the synagogue. And these are things you learn from it. And this is this -- you got to write about it, what happened. And you have the documentation, it's not just that something nice can come [indecipherable] happen, it's everything written the postcard. And they can't deny because this was censored, by the Germans censor, everything. I have from the camps, going from the ghetto into the camps, letters, Interview with Morris Rosen * August 5, 1999

postcards. And this irreplaceable, you can't put in a value on it. On a history you can't put the value. And to sell, I don't know what you -- depends on the collector. I thinks that I paid 5,000 dollars for an item, for one letter, which is extremely rare.

Q: In your work in the Holocaust Museum --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- do you ever work with the public?

A: With the public here, not, but I do a lot, I give talks to charities. I gave talks to universities, and I do this about 10 to 15 times a year. I gave a talk about two years ago in Fort Meade for the army people, which it happened it was the ninth of May, the anniversary of the end of the second World War. Was about 300 officers there present, they wrote me up in the paper, in fact they wrote me up in two papers.

Well, I came there. I didn't talk much about the Jewish Holocaust, because I don't know who the people are. Gentile -- it depends. In schools, in schools or [indecipherable] I tell them the Holocaust. Army people is a different thing. I wanted to disclose to them, which the army doesn't know if-- the United States population doesn't know what happened to American POWs during the war. Their holocaust, which people don't understand, they don't know, which I have documents from the second World War that I copied, and it's everything in the archives. In what manner they killed the POWs, also death marches, which it's not Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999

known that they went through death marches. There's a death march with 8,000 British POWs from Poland [indecipherable], they took them through the snow and everything, that I found in the archives, a book from a major, from a British major with the names who got killed, shot on the road, they couldn't make it. So many of them, thousands got killed from the 8,000. This is not known, and the public don't know. And they opened their eyes when they heard what they did to the American soldiers, how they buried them with the heads up, which you can find pictures in si -- and now it's in -- in college [indecipherable], with the heads up, buried. I have a fact, a Jewish soldier, which I have a document with the picture, everything. When they -- when they captured him they found a prayer book, which they have the army prayer books, the Jewish people, they took away everything.

Then they wanted to take off his ring, and it wouldn't come off from the ki -- finger.

They took a shovel and cut off his finger to get the ring. Then they buried them with the heads up, and when the American army came in and they saw them burying the head, they kept them -- they kept them from the American army, we should bury them here. He says, don't take no prisoners from them, look what they did to them.

And this is the anger, but today the population don't understand what the Germans did to them. The -- they don't know that over two million Russian POWs were killed by the Nazis in Buchenwald also. There were between three and 400 killings ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Morris Rosen u August 5, 1999 every day in Buchenwald, that they had the barrack there, it was called by telephone, 91. When they called them up, they knew what it is, they were dressed as doctors. They put them in -- they put them into this barrack, and it was just -- just like a doctor effice -- office for examine your eyes, the height, and everything. And they took prisoners, a lot of prisoners in one time, every night what was going on.

And they examined their teeth, they examined their eyes, everything. Then they took one by one into a next room, which it was against the wall to measure the height. But there was a slot there, and they put with the heads back and there he got right away a bullet in his back head and this was going all night long. In the morning they cleaned everything off, they had to have a plumber to unplug from the blood and everything. They captured those people, they captured the people after the war. What did they do to them? I found documents, it's -- it's -- it's unbelievable that the American government could do this. I have a document which a German officer, a doctor decapitated a g -- a-an American officer. He took his head, put them in a liquid, get off the flesh, everything. He bleached his skull, and it -- he sent his wife a souvenir for mantelpiece. They caught this, and now the German told them, and he wanted to save his life. And he was among 45 other German prisoners what they killed [indecipherable] other places. And of course, he was sentenced to death by hanging. So the Germans were very smart, and very smart lawyers, right away

Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999

got -- they got petitions from the people from that city which that doctor [indecipherable] decapitated the soldier. They got over 5,000 names that he was a good citizen, he went to church every Sunday, that he has a old mother, how can she die knowing if he's gonna be killed? He has two small kids. How will the kids live the rest of the life he's going to get killed. And a letter included that came from the Vatican, which I have a copy, a document, which it went to General Clay, which he was the governor of Europe from the American army, if you are going to kill those 45 people, you are not any better than the Nazis, because the war is over.

So they commuted them. Of course they got commuted to life. The lawyers were so smart, they send in the petition to Washington, not explaining that they were commuted from hanging to life, but they said they were sentenced to life. And with the same thing with their signatures. So that particular person was commuted to 25 years. After sitting Landsberg for five years only, for good behavior they let him out free. I have the documents to show. What do we say to the parents from that poor soul that he got decapitated? They walking around free. And of course the Cold War there so they did away everything, it's known for it. And it hurts.

Q: You mentioned you do a lot of public speaking --

A: Yes.

Q: -- and you have quite an extensive collection Interview with Morris Rosen >> August 5, 1999

A: Yeah.

Q: -- now.

A: Yeah.

Q: But you didn't talk about it in the past. Do you have children and if yes, what did you tell your children about your childhood and your experiences in Europe?

A: Well, I never wanted to talk from anything, but my son, when I was invited to talk to a church in Stevenson, there in Baltimore, so him with his wife came, and I think that's the first time he ever heard this, because I never wanted to talk at home.

And he knows a lot of times when I watch a film that -- that I cry a lot. I don't cry, I walk out, so he knows this. And he -- he knows more about things. And I told him about my collection. A lot of it I donated, a lot of [indecipherable]. Every time I come here I give some here to the museum. Of course, I can't give everything to the museum, cause I got kids to leave some money, cause all my money, I never did the bank, everything went to buy this stuff, because I figured, I went through so much, let me enjoy what I want with my collections.

Q: How many children do you have and how old are they?

A: Yeah, I have two boys. One just got his birthday in July, his 40" birthday and one is 38. He is married, and I have my first grandchild, which she is 18 months old, beautiful girl. But the only thing that I complain, he is all the time traveling on ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Morris Rosen .deg August 5, 1999 planes for a -- his job demands a lot, he gives lectures and this, he travels all over.

For instance, he was only six weeks ago, the first time they send him to Israel, he was only for a day and a half, he saw my sister only for 10 minutes, that's all. He is all the time on the travel, and with a young kid. But he is very well loved. My other boy is so-so here. And then my wife, unfortunately not so well, when you get a little older, with different things, and so it's not easy, but I manage to do everything. And I'm going to talk a lot about my family, what happened.

Q: I--I do want you to go over and tell me what happened to the members of your family, but I would like to ask you for a few moments to reflect about some of the things that happened while you were in this country.

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: And the first thing that comes to my mind is the Eichmann trial.

A: Yes.

Q: Did you follow the Eichmann trials?

A: Yeah, sure. Well, the Eichmann trial I did follow, and my brother-in-law was there. In fact, I have letters from -- from the prosecutor, from the [indecipherable] trial, which they gave to my brother-in-law for writing all those articles. He -- he writes a lot for the army and everything. And what bothered me from the Eichmann trials especially, when my brother-in-law wrote me a letter, he says he -- http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen ia August 5, 1999 I can't understand. There were Israelis at the trial, and he overheard young Israelis, what kind scared people are the Jews? Couldn't they fight back, that they were killed like nothing, and everything. And I got very aggravated about it. I saw -- I was once on Yom HaShoah in Baltimore. It was couple days sitting past me, he says, Morrie, don't you -- couldn't I fight back, they go to be killed? Just -- just -- just whatever they tell them to do it? And when I was -- I was invited to go with a group of Polish officers for the 50" anniversary of the Battle of Monte Cassino. So I figured I'm gonna go, I was the only Jewish person who [indecipherable], which I went with them, we went to Ossiah(ph), we went to Vienna, we went to Budapest and then Italy, to all the cemeteries where were soldiers from the [indecipherable] army were killed in Italy and they are buried there. And it's a lot of Jewish soldiers are buried there. People don't know about it. In Verona, other places. In the Monte Cassino we have about between 36 to 40 Jewish soldiers buried there. So one of the ladies here, a very intelligent woman from Chicago, she's a teacher for music and a artist. And we were very close because with her I talk intelligent manner. And she told me, she says Morris, you tell me one thing.

Look at the Israelis how they fight and this. How come the Jews never fought there in -- in -- in Poland. So | ask her wha -- and then it burned me up, so I ask a question. I says, Stasia(ph) tell me, how come that 15,000 Polish officers, they were ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion

Interview with Morris Rosen * August 5, 1999

officers, not regular army people, were killed in [indecipherable] murdered in [indecipherable], they never fought back. By the way, there were over 800 Jewish soldiers that got killed, officers got killed in [indecipherable] which I have -- the names I have in the archives, I was working the archives in Warsaw, I found the names, everything. Tell me that the same valiant soldiers from the Russian army, that they captured Berlin, everything, fought so gallantly against the Nazis, over two and a half million got killed, and they went like sheep to the slaughter. They didn't fight back. I said, how come so many British POWs got killed, they never fought back? In Poland they never fought back. I said, who were the first ones to fight, with nothing? It was the Jewish uprising in Warsaw ghetto. I said, you show me in all the mankind history, if a person -- if a army [indecipherable] is in defense, there is no uprising, they don't. Only when [indecipherable] there's uprisings. I said, the Polish uprising in Warsaw, when did it come? When the Russian army were near th -- near the -- over there. And they were near Praga and they didn't come in, they la-later on killed the Polish uprising. That's what they wanted. So then when the -- the Pole -- I said, people fought back in Sobibor in the camp. They fought back even Auschwitz. They fought back anywhere they can, even the ghettos, when they -- when they saw uniforms for the army -- for the army, I said. I said, Jewish people fought. I said, two -- two and a quarter million -- http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen * August 5, 1999 250,000 Russian soldiers, Jewish soldiers got killed fighting the Nazis, it's a fact.

How many Jews in the British army fell? In the French army, in the Greek army, everywhere they fought. How many Jewish soldiers fell and fought against the Nazis, American soldiers? You go and tell me that they didn't fight back. Give them a chance with what to fight back, but they fought.

Q: During your years in the United States --

A: Yes.

Q: -- did you become involved with any of the Holocaust organizations that were not related to the museum, the -- the survivors" groups, anything like that?

A: Well, when we started out in Baltimore when we came, there was a survivors" group, we had meetings, but only[indecipherable] for three years. What happened, people didn't have time, where they have the groceries, most of them went to grocery stores. They were 12 hours a day, they slept there and everything. They were dis-integrated. I mean, not particularly -- there was a -- I tried to -- I tried to form a group, without success. I tried even to put out a Holocaust museum in Baltimore, which I went to the biggest people, which they give donations in the heavy thousands, hundreds of thousands, but to have their name on it. But something like this, I went to them, they told me, wa -- what do you need here? It's going to be a museum in Washington, it's a museum Los Angeles, what do we http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen "4 August 5, 1999 need this here? I told them, you don't need much, just give me a room, like they have in Chicago, they have in Los Angeles, there's a little museum. I will give the material. In fact, | was ashamed. Three years ago they called me from the Jewish Council, they have the teachers, the Catholic teachers convention in Baltimore. So they wanted to put up a little exhibit, so there -- at the table from the Jewish Council, which I exhibited there, and I was there. And they found out that I wanted to put up a museum and to donate this material. That priest from the church came to me, we will -- you donate the material, we will have in the church a little museum.

So I says, I am very sorry. I can loan you the material, but you asking a little too much. What the Christians killed so the Jews, and -- and -- and the priests didn't do anything, you ask me from the people, from the victims to donate this kind of material to a church? I mean --

Q: This coming week --

A: Yes.

Q: -- there is going to be a march in Washington --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- of the neo-Nazi groups.

A: Yes.

Q: There have been several of these over the years.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen "8 August 5, 1999

A: Yes.

Q: How do you respond to the neo-Nazis and the skinheads in this country and do you think the American Jewish community should be concerned?

A: How can you respond? When I remember when they opened -- the opening of the Holocaust Museum, what is this, almost six years ago. Right in front there, where survivors came in were Nazis there marching with placards and the police didn't do nothing. What [indecipherable]? It's free of speech here, they say, you can do everything. But they don't know from these speeches, what they have now, especially on the Web and everything, it can be another Holocaust. How can I react? And the best thing, let them go, not to put even the papers this was a march. I ca--TI started, I never wanted to talk about the Holocaust at all, but when did I start?

When I heard in Skokie what was go on the marches. Then I woke up and I says, now I got to do something, now it's about time I opened my big mouth.

Q: How do you think the Holocaust has ec -- influenced some of the choices that you're made in your life personally, professionally?

A: Well, with everything I am very bitter. If you -- you ask me about religion. I was very bitter, because where was God, and every survivor will tell you. And if people wouldn't be that fanatic of religious, because a lot of people couldn't before the war, go to Palestine at that time, but they said no, they have to wait til the Messiah.

Interview with Morris Rosen *deg August 5, 1999

It wouldn't happen. A lot of people, if they would have cut their beards and this, they could have maybe survived. They didn't. And what I found out, a lot of people that they were so religious before the war, friends of mine, they became the biggest thing, they eat everything not kosher, they wouldn't even go to a synagogue, not even on Yom Kippur. And a lot of people that they were not religious, became religious. And I tell you, it -- ma --I think my boys suffered a lot in the beginning of it, because they saw me and 1-it -- it does something to the kids. It does something.

But, when you get older, and this -- and myself, I thought well, it went through everything, let's forget it. You can't forget. The older you get, the more you remind yourself what happened, the more you wanted to cry what happened. You have more time to think about it, before you were busy with your work, with business and this and this. Now when it comes you go to bed, everything comes back to you, and especially with me when you work in the museum. When you see all the stories and everything is your head -- you register everything in you -- in you mind, and it comes back to you, everything. A lot of the times I came home from work, from here, my wife, uh-oh, uh-oh, you had a tough time. She can notice, by the way, that I don't talk of this and this and this and this. But yet, whenever I come to company, [all the time with a smile, I all the time lighten up [indecipherable] and I try to do my best in life what I can. When I am in Germany, and I have a lot of German

Interview with Morris Rosen a August 5, 1999

friends, they ask me, and this and this and this and this. I says look, the only thing you can do about it, what happened, so to see that it doesn't happen again. If you see somewhere the Nazi party and everything, do something about it. That's what you can help, I said.

Q: You mentioned that you were thinking of wring a book.

A: Yeah.

Q: Can you briefly tell me a little bit about your plan for this book?

A: Well, first of all, I want to talk about my whole family, what everybody in the family went through, because it's a book in itself from e -- every person my family can write a book. And my life at home, my life in school, which I remember from the first grade on, the teachers and students and everything. And during the war what happened, from everybody from mine family what happened during the war.

And right after the war, how traumatic it was, everything. And yet, you got to go on with your life, and you get situated the best you can, and you try to be happy, and try to raise a family, and to have a future, that's all. And that shouldn't be forgotten, that's the main thing.

Q: You mentioned that you knew what happened to your parents --

A: Yes.

Q: -- during the war. Can you go through your siblings one at a time --

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen degdeg August 5, 1999

A: Yeah.

Q: -- and tell me with each one, their fate?

A: Well, for instance, my parents. I-- my parents, August 12 was the [indecipherable] in our city, that the th-they -- they -- the Jewish community, the council, put out notices everybody should come, in the best clothes to be represented nice, and they come there to a field which it's near the Jewish community, and they're going -- they're going to register everyone for work and this and this, to come, and we have to be on time. That's six o'clock in the morning we came. We were there six in the morning, I won't go to the -- all the history, it's known, but they took away mine parents at that time, and they marched them all the way to Benzburg(ph), where they were in an orphanage for almost three days. I didn't have the keys to the house to get in, so I ran to Benzburg(ph), which the police didn't let me in, the Jewish militia. One of them recognized me and I says, I got to get the key. He says, you might be -- not be able get out. I said I'd take the chance. And when I came in there, I can never forget the scene what I saw. People, a lot of them had taleism, how they prayed, an-and they banged themself in the heart [indecipherable]. And I will never forget the scene that it was, my father gave me a watch, he had the watch, and the keys to the house. And what happened, I worked at that time by one of the biggest SS men, Dryer(ph), I did some painting Interview with Morris Rosen .deg August 5, 1999

for his girlfriend. And a -- a day before I ask him what's going to be with the parent.

Oh go, you go there [indecipherable] because I was scared. And then I came on with my older bro -- why didn't -- you promised me they would take my parents, where are they? They took him away. Well, I will see what I can do. Then two days later is where it was too late, but he didn't tell me where they went or anything. And what happened when I came out from there, from work, and I went home, I went through the fields, never through the city. I went through the fields, I notice a train.

And when I look at the train I saw German army people in the roofs, and this. I see through the window Yurinis(ph) Snifell(ph), the father from mine good friend, the one that what I told you, he died in -- in -- in Bergen-Belsen. He waved to me, I waved back. That's how I knew this is the train that they went to Auschwitz. And it's recorded that they were killed in the 17" of August, they were killed. And then the first victim was my sister, the one that went on the Exodus. She was taken away in the beginning of "42, May, where they told all young girls, women between 14 and 30 have to register, 14 or 13 years old. And of course, my sister was the youngest at home, she was only 14 years old. And what I forgot to tell you about my sister, some -- which it's interesting i-in the ghetto what happened. I will come back to this wh -- time will permit me. My sister saw in the window -- through the window, a girlfriend of her on the bike. And this was about nine in the morning.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen *deg August 5, 1999 She ran out to greet her, this was Basha(ph) Frotesfike(ph), very fine, beautiful girl. As she ran out, it went by a gendarme, a German gendarme went by and she didn't have her armband on. So she ran quick back to the house, he ran back.

[indecipherable] to the house, he came to the house. He saw my stamp collection, I was doing stamps. Right away he came, you can't have this. He took it away, he says, the German government will pay you, you can't have this. He probably was collecting, he took it away. And they took to court my sister and she got for three weeks a prisoner. Of course my mother was crying, how can she go, so my mother went to prison instead of her, because a young girl, she was afraid. Three weeks. I went almost every second day with food to the prison to give her kosher food. And that's what happened, it was a terrible time. And then they took -- what I said, they said to register the girls, they took into Sosnowiec to the dulac(ph), and they sent 450 girls away, all the cream from the youngsters from our city, and they send them to a camp, Gruenberg [indecipherable] that's where I came. This is one of them.

Q: And you've mentioned some of your other siblings.

A: Yeah.

Q: Who in your family did not survive?

A: Yeah. Well, it was Leosia, the oldest. She died on the death march from Stutthof, yeah. Then was Yehiel. He died, they took him to Auschwitz with the Interview with Morris Rosen * August 5, 1999 whole family, with -- with four children, one which it's listed on the picture, on the pamphlets from the Red Cross, I have the picture. And with his wife the whole family got wiped out. Then was Ruchcia and Tamara. She escaped howe -- to Russia, which as -- a witness from my city, they saw them going to the Russian side, and he says, come on, let's go in deep. And she says no, I have to go back home, I want to see my father. When they tried to go back home, and that's where I know the last thing I heard of them. One, Sala, she ran to the underground, her and her husband, they have a little boy. And she went on the underground and they were near Krakow, and they send him -- End of Tape Three, Side A Beginning Tape Three, Side B

Q: -- it's a continuation of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum volunteer collection interview with Morris Rosen. This is tape three, side B, and you were telling me about your sister --

A: Yeah, yes.

Q: -- who went to the underground.

A: Yeah, she went to the underground, to her husband with a little kid, and they send them away to undermine some rails, you know, for train. When he came back there were four girls, four Jewish girls, it was in the PPR, the pepperarr(ph), this ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999 was the worker's underground. They were more leftists. And when came back all the four girls were cut the throats and the stomachs. And she was dead and the kid was alive, all bloody from the blood. They didn't hurt him, but bloody. He grabbed the kid, he washed it off, ran away, and in Krakew he went to a building -- you know the buildings have there staircases where you can -- windows look out? And he put the kid near a monastery, on the steps from a monastery. He was there for about an hour watching window, and he saw somebody came out, a nun, and they took the kid away. And he ran away. He ran away back to Lvov, to Lemberg, where he came from, he was in Lemberg. And what I know about it, what we found out, and this is from her husband's brother, what we found out. Her husband's brother was a officer in the Russian army. And when he came back to Lemberg, when they liberated Lvov, they came from there, he found his brother, mine sister's husband and he told him the story what happened to her, and with the kid. The same day they were sitting a restaurant, a drunken Russian soldier killed my sister's husband. The day from the liberation. So anyway, he knew about the kid, so after the war they put in the paper they're looking for this kid, and they offered a lot of money. In fact, I think that the HIAS or some Jewish organization offered a lot of money, a reward for -- for give information about that kid that was here -- he had taken away. It took about two months, came a telephone, and they let ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Morris Rosen 8 August 5, 1999 them know that they know about the kid [indecipherable]. They went there, no, gave him away already. He went to another place where we gave him -- he's ona farm. When he came there toward the farm, he saw a little boy in the pasture, barefoot that the cows, and the little boy started to yell in Polish, help, help, that the Jews want to kill me. [speaks Polish here] They probably trained that little kid against the Jews that they shouldn't be -- either suspect he's Jewish or something, they never know. But anyway he came in, he wanted the kid, they wouldn't give him. He says, I give you so much money. No, they don't have kids. They held him all during the war and this, it's his, that they're not give away. He says, but I want to pay for every -- no, no money can do. We -- we love him and everything. Well, he saw he didn't have no -- anything to do, he took a couple Jewish comrades from the army, he went back with the guns there, and he says, okay, either we take him, or you gonna get killed when we take him. Anyway, they grabbed the kid -- there were four soldiers, they grabbed the kid, they left money on the table and ran away.

When they ran away they threw away their uniforms, smuggled themselve over to Italy, and then from Italy illegal to Palestine. And my oldest sister that came back from Russia when they came to Palestine, she found out about it, she wanted the kid because she's a aunt. But they went to court in Jerusalem and they gave the kid to the uncle because he risked his life, and -- and so anyway, I met a nice -- he looks ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Morris Rosen " August 5, 1999 like my brother exactly. This was happened to the other sister. And so I lost four sisters and a brother and the parents.

Q: The brother-in-law that you mentioned, that worked in Nuremberg and worked in the Jerusalem trial --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- of Eichmann, the same brother-in-law?

A: No. This is the brother from my oldest sister Leosia, that he -- yeah.

Q: Well, explain who was who [indecipherable]

A: In the -- Leosia, yeah. This is -- his name was Shaptai(ph) Kloneman(ph).

Q: Which one?

A: Klugman. The one from Warsaw that -- that my oldest sister died and -- on the way, on the death march from Stutthof, and he's the one, the correspondent that wrote many books, and that was at the Nuremberg trials. That's him. His name, if you w-want to see, is under Kah(ph) Shaptai. Klugman Shaptai(ph) [indecipherable]. But he was also known as Scheinfeld(ph). He changed his name, he was afraid from the Polish from the underground things, so he changed his name after his mother's parents, Scheinfeld [indecipherable]. And his son, his son, when he came over here and changed his name also to Scheinfeld(ph). He was afraid Klugman because he was at the international trial, they have something, he was -- http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Morris Rosen deg8 August 5, 1999 and somebody recognize him from Warsaw [indecipherable] he said that's not him, so he shortened his name to Field so his name is now Field, it's not Scheinfeld, just Field. [indecipherable]

Q: And which brother-in-law covered the -- or worked at the Eichmann trial?

A: Well, this is --

Q: The same one?

A: The same one, yeah.

Q: That's --

A: The same one.

Q: I have just another one or two questions for you.

A: Yes. [tape break]

Q: Excuse me, we had to take a quick break. We are back now. I wanted to ask you if there is anything that you wanted to mention that I didn't ask you, about your life in this country since the war, and/or about your work at the museum. Anything that we didn't cover that you would like to include before we end the tape?

A: Well, I would say, I made myself a happy life, the best I can, and was very constructive. I am very busy with the philatelic organizations, which I travel a awful lot, I go four or five times overseas a year, which I am invited. And it's fun being judging at the shows because you meet so many people around the world. The only Interview with Morris Rosen degdeg August 5, 1999 thing that it's bad, that I have about 40 -- 50 letters to write monthly. But on the other hand, it's nice to know people everywhere. Wherever I travel, if I go I feel at home and -- and very nice, and that's mine payback. And otherwise, I enjoy the museum, I enjoy the people here, nice to work with them, and I know that my work here will help for future generations, that I do something constructive for the museum. And that's all [indecipherable] that I can pay back something.

Q: I want to thank you for speaking with me today --

A: Thank you.

Q: -- in this interview, and this will conclude the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Morris Rosen. Thank you.

A: Thank you.

End of Tape Three, Side B Conclusion of Interview