Document

HERMA BARBER August 11, 1996

Q: Mrs. Barber, would you please tell me your name at birth and when and where you were born?

A: I was born in Vienna, August 6, 1921, in Vienna.

Q: Would you tell me a little bit about what it was like to grow up in Vienna?

A: It's, I don't, I don't know what to say about that, really. I was young but, when I was born, I went to school and I had my, I don't really know what to say about that.

Q: What was your family life like, who was in your home?

A: My parents, my sister, my brother and we had a good life and I never thought this is going to happen, what happened and I never thought about politics or anything, because I was very young at that time.

Q: Was your family religious in the home?

A: The holidays we kept, yes. We always kept the holidays. I went to Temple, in Vienna you say Temple, you don't say Shul and we went to Temple to the holidays, my parents did.

Q: What was it like for you in your school? Were you with mostly other Jewish friends, or non- Jewish too?

A: I went, no they were mixed, in the school it was mixed, but actually my first friend wasn't Jewish, but otherwise, later on, I had only Jewish friends.

Q: And what were your parents doing, did your father work?

A: My father, before they had a business, later on he was, how do you call that, to explain, when somebody was in bankruptcy, he helped them, but he didn't have a law degree.

Q: What kind of business was it, before that?

A: My mother and my father, they were, had a hat store, wholesale, but that was already when I was very little, they're, they didn't have it any more.

Q: So do you remember having a good childhood, growing up in Vienna?

A: Yes, of course it was good. We were close. I was very close with my sister and she was much older than me, but we were very close and so was I with my brother.

Q: Can you describe a little bit about the neighborhood that you grew up in?

A: The neighborhood was mixed, where I lived, it was mixed. It was completely mixed and I didn't, I don't know what to say, I don't, I really don't know, but it was mixed.

Q: Did you experience any anti-Semitism as you were growing up?

A: Not really, not really, but I also knew when the German came in, they were all, all of a sudden, they were all Nazis. That I do remember.

Q: What was that like, can you tell me a little bit more about that?

A: All of a sudden, they all had illegal, how do you call it, 1 know there were illegal Nazis before, because you could tell, with their hattencotes(ph), you know, that's what you say, I think.

Q: At what time was this, what year?

A: That was when Hitler came in. I didn't know it before. I didn't know anything before. You see, I was young and I didn't worry about anything, what could happen and we never thought it's going to happen anyway, but I didn't know that.

Q: What did you hear about Hitler when you began to hear about him?

A: Oh, I was very upset and of course, very upset and I hated them, that's all I can tell you.

Q: Did you talk about Hitler much in your home, or the Nazis in your home?

A: No, but we knew we want to go out as soon as we can, when it's possible and in "38, I got a affidavit, but the quota was filled up. With my sister and her two children, her husband, my father

never thought he's going to be able to come here because he was born in Romania. My mother was also born in Vienna, but my father thought that he can never come in, but we were hoping. And we got the, like I said, an affidavit in "38, but we never had the opportunity to come, because we heard the quota is full. So we know we have to go somewhere else, we didn't get a visa anywhere else.

So my sister with her children and her husband went to Belgium, because that time was a easier way to go illegal to Belgium. When we wanted to go, which was later, then my sister, my parents and I, the better way was to Yugoslavia, so that's what we did, we went to Yugoslavia, illegal.

Q: When was it that you decided you wanted to leave Austria, what prompted you and your family to try to leave?

A: Because the situation came like that. They did let us go anywhere we wanted to, but we had get no visas, so, but we know we wanted to go out. You heard so many things, so you know you don't want to stay in this country.

Q: Were you or your family subjected to anti-Semitism once the Nazis came in, after Austria was annexed?

A: [had a job that time as a apprentice, I think you say here and right away, the owner, with his son, was taken, I think to Dachau that time and the store was, it was a shoe store, a very big shoe store and all the Jewish people who worked there, almost all of them, that was a very, very big store, all them were fired and remained only few people and I was included that few. I think six remained that time and of course and I went also Kaufman __ , oh, this I speak German, I don't know how to say it in English anyway. I went to school because we had to go to school, I think twice a week and I went to school and of course I couldn't go to school any more that time. So of course, you know, and, and after I was, you know, I don't recall everything, but I know that we wanted to leave and especially my father was determined to leave.

Q: Did you talk about it a lot at home? Trying to emigrate, trying to leave as a family?

A: There was, we talked, but I don't recall exactly, we know that we wanted to leave as soon as we have opportunity and there was no way to go anywhere legal, so we went illegal, over the border, by foot. My father had a compass, you know, I don't know how to say it in English and we were told on the border, even which way we can go and we walked and walked and we heard dogs barking, I got scared. And one time they have seen a light and we've, my father said we should go to the floor, because they shouldn't see us, because we came, we were already in Yugoslavia. And then we end up, during the night, to go to a house, which, for, peasants were there, you know and they let us sleep and my father, that was near, my father tried to go to Mulberry(ph), I think was the name of it, in order to get a taxi to go to Zagreb. And he did that, he went to Mulberry(ph), my mother was, for hours he didn't come back and my mother was ready, all ready to go back, but we could never have come back anyway, but she wanted to and I was saying, "We have to wait." And then my father came with the taxi and then we went to Zagreb.

Q: When was this, that you were leaving Austria to go to Zagreb?

A: That was in, I think it was end, I think it was November "39, but it could have been, I think about that time, anyway.

Q: So do you remember Kristallnacht in Austria, what that was like?

A: ?

Q: In November of 1938, do you remember synagogues being burned? It sounds like you were still in Vienna at that time, is that right?

A: You know, I didn't, we didn't talk about it, I know, for instance, all the Jews who had stores, they were taken away, this I know. We didn't talk about things like that, we really didn't. I know some

people were taken from the Gestapo, but we were scared and we tried to get out and that was all our thinking.

Q: Were you able to, so when you prepared to leave Austria, what did you take with you?

A: What we could carry in the bag, on our bag, but we bought very good shoes, for us, we didn't have, we couldn't buy new shoes, so that time the Jews couldn't buy new shoes any more, so, but we bought old shoes for, you know, mountain shoes. So that helped us a lot. All of us. My mother didn't have direct mountain shoes, but she had also shoes, you know, high shoes, which were very important.

Q: Okay, so when you first arrived to Yugoslavia and you were trying to cross the border, was there any difficulty in doing that?

A: It was scary, that's all, because we know that we went without permission. We had the passport, but we went without permission to the, to Yugoslavia, to enter Yugoslavia.

Q: Do you remember any close calls, of being caught?

A: We didn't know anything at that time. We didn't know anything.

Q: So you were able to cross the border without too much difficulty and then you arrived to Zagreb?

A: Yes, yes, it was scary, that was the, it was a terrible scaring, but when we went to Zagreb we went to the Jewish community and they were recommending us to a, where we got the room, they rented a room for us and I think that, of course they paid everything that time, because we didn't have any money.

Q: Who were you with at the time, who in your family were you with?

A: Oh, just my parents and I.

Q: And where was your brother at this time?

A: Oh, my brother was that time in Italy. My brother wasn't there. My brother was, went to Italy.

Q: So what was it like staying in Zagreb?

A: We were not too long in Zagreb, because after about a week, I think, I don't recall exactly, we were eating in a place where most were, what was also paid, everything was paid from the Jewish community because we had no money and we were eating where other people were eating too, which came the same way like us, didn't have a permission to go to Yugoslavia and were eating there. And one day they made, they took us, the police took us, to jail. We were there about a week, maybe it was a little bit longer, I don't recall exactly, I think it was a week and the Jewish community sent their, jail in Zagreb, I know even the street, the street was Petrinska(ph), I remember that and we were in jail about a week, ate the Jewish community center's food in there and after we were released, we were, I think you see, in Taneat(ph), in Summabar(ph), which is nearby Zagreb, about I would say, an hour or a half an hour with the car, maybe a half an hour with the car, I don't think longer than that, I don't recall. And we were brought there and we had to stay there, and we, we couldn't go out of Summabar(ph), but in Summabar(ph), it was a nice village, a village you see, I think, a nice and, but we couldn't leave and I think we had, but I'm not wrong, we had to sign every morning that we are there, but I, it almost, I'm not sure, 100 percent sure, but I think we did. But I know we did, couldn't leave that place.

Q: How many people were you with there?

A: That time, it was about maybe 150, maybe a little bit more, I don't know, but after awhile, even before the German started the war with Yugoslavia, some of them were brought in another village and I had close friends at that time and they were brought away and I know, as far as I know, they got in a concentration camp, I don't know which one, but I don't think they came out.

Q: Who brought you to Summabar(ph)?

A: Oh, from the police we were brought to Summabar(ph), because they didn't want us, because we didn't have a visa, so that I guess the Jewish community were doing that, that we were intoneered(ph) in Summabar(ph) and they gave us the food, or the money what we need at that time, in order to live.

Q: So the Jewish community was still somehow overseeing you, taking care of you and the others?

A: That was, yes, I guess so, yeah, I would say that.

Q: Where were you actually staying, sleeping, where were you, what were your conditions like?

A: Oh that time, before that German came, it was good, we were, you know, we had a room in a very nice place, everybody had, you know, just a room, but anyway, that's what we had.

Q: Did you develop friendships with other people in your group?

A: We were friends, all of us, mostly all of us were friends, we were all close together.

Q: And were you hoping or trying to leave there soon?

A: We were hoping that we can stay til we, til the war is finished, but it didn't turn out that way.

You know, the German came, I forgot the year, but I think it was, let me think.

Q: 1941.

A: 1941 the German came there and it didn't take long that we were sent, we were there til "41 and then we were sent to Carasteenatz(ph) and that was like, it wasn't a jail, but it was a big room, a big how do you say it, I won't know how to say it in English, a big place where we were all brought there and we were sleeping all on the floor and there were thousands, hundreds of, I would say thousands of rats, they were going over our heads during the night, I was told, I was still sleeping, because we were tired out and we got some food that time and they were cooking outside and they made the stove outside from stones and some people cooked and we had something to eat. I still think the Jewish community paid for that food.

Q: Who was overseeing you at the time, were you still being taken from one place to the next? You were taken from Summabar(ph) to this other place and...

A:___ I think is the name of it and then we were brought, let me look, I have marked it down so I can tell you because otherwise I don't recall, exactly.

Q: Well, can I ask you a question about leaving Summabar(ph), who took you from Summabar(ph)?

A: Oh, that's, the Ustershur(ph)took us that time, think that's what the Ustershur(ph) did, took us from Summabar(ph) to Carasteenatz(ph) and then from, first to Mileeni(ph) or Leeni(ph), I don't know, then to Carasteenatz(ph) and then we were brought back to Zagreb and we were brought and I think that's all from the, oh, two people tried to escape from camp, from that place and I know they were hit, very badly and, but they also survived and were going with us to Zagreb, we were brought to Zagreb and from Zagreb we were brought to, Sarajevo, by train and in Sarajevo, I guess, I do not know for sure if there was nearby, a concentration camp or not, but I think that's what they had in mind, I don't know. But in Sarajevo, the, how can I tell you, in Sarajevo there didn't take us, I guess they didn't know what to do with us , because we're actually , we were not Yugoslav Jews, we were from Austria, most, I say everybody was from Austria, almost everybody was from Austria that time and didn't, actually they didn't know who we are, so they sent us to Moestar(ph). And from Moestar(ph), we wanted to sleep there, but some of them were picked up from, I'm sure that was, nobody else would have done it, it was the, the Ustershur(ph) who brought us to Katzco(ph). They were brought, some of the people took us to Katzco(ph) and we were brought in the morning later to Katzco(ph) and in Katzco(ph) we stayed awhile, but we were very lucky that time, because the Italian came, the Italian military came and then we were sent back to Moestar(ph).

Q: Can I just ask you a few more questions about what it was like to be with the Ustasi(ph)?

A: That time, they didn't know who we are, were, actually. I think they didn't. So that time they didn't do anything. I know what would have happened later, but that time they didn't do anything but sending us to places and. that's all.

Q: Did you hear about concentration camps in other places from people?

A: Not that time, that was the early time, that was in, I think it was in "41, that was in'41. That time you didn't hear anything, but I heard later that we were supposed to brought to Sarajevo in order to be taken care of. I guess in Zagreb they knew, but where we were sent, that time, they didn't know, they didn't know who we were actually, I think that's what it was.

Q: Did you have fear at this time?

A: Not that time. Later on we did, of course, tremendous. But that time, it was just a horrible thing, we had, we slept on the floor, but I was, I took it, I think all the people took it much harder than I did because I was young that time. But it was, we were hungry part of it, or course, but they gave us some food. Okay, but it was, let me think, because it's very hard to remember everything and, and, it's so many years ago, but that time, you didn't, we knew about the Serbs, that we know, but about the Jews, that time you didn't know. But we didn't see anything, but we heard.

Q: Did you notice a lot of changes, either in your own conditions or around you, after April of "41, when the Germans came in, when the Ustasi(ph) took you away from Summabar(ph)

A: Oh yes, we were, we were in jail in Carasteenatz(ph) ___, we couldn't go out, we couldn't leave and, and like I said, the condition boy of that, we were sleeping on the floor and the rats over our, you know, they were. Now I can't believe it, that I wasn't even scared about the rats, because there were so many other things to be scared of that the rats was nothing.

Q: Were you hungry a lot of the time?

A: Yes, we were. That time it wasn't that bad, that time it was" that bad, yet, it was later on for us, much worse, about hunger and this. But we know when the German get us, what is going to happen to us, but we, that time, it really, it was, we were so busy escaping and being intoneered(ph) that we didn't have much time to think.

Q: Were you put to work, what were you doing during the days if you weren't moving from one place to another, what was your day like?

A: All right. We didn't do much, we didn't do much, not that time, no. There's nothing, I can't, you know, it's a lot I forgot, actually it's a lot I forgot.

Q: So you were starting to tell me about when the Italians came in, would you tell me a little bit more about that?

A: We were brought back to Moestar(ph), all right and then to Chaplina(ph), which is a small place and we all were brought to Chaplina(ph) and that was about in "42, I think.

Q: So I just want to make sure, first you were in Gattsgo(ph) and that was still 1941?

A: Yes.

Q: And there...

A: And then it was Chaplina(ph), then it was still "41, I think.

Q: But in Gattsgo(ph), is it in Gattsgo(ph) where the Italians took over your group from the Ustasi(ph)?

A: They were there, they didn't took over our group, but they were there so we were safe, because they were very nice to us and that's all, I mean and then I guess in "41, they brought us to Chaplina(ph) and in Chaplina(ph) they were also the Italian there, they were also occupied by the and I don't know if you say occupied, they were also Italian soldiers there, but there we got to eat, we got to, I guess from the community, I don't know how we got to eat, but they got food, some

food, but that was already very, very little and we started to be very, very hungry and it was next to a church and I think the church was a Serbian church and I made it at house where we were sleeping was maybe all of them there Serbs because it was an empty house, it was a big house, because we were all brought there and we all slept in that one house, all the, all the people. One next to the other.

Q: And were the Italians taking care of your group now? Were the Ustasi(ph) still around you?

A: You know, I, we didn't have anything to do that time with the Ustershur(ph). The, then, but they were there, I'm quite sure they were there, because there was a time when I heard, they want to send us somewhere and we were afraid, because one who took, who was it, who, he was, you know there was somebody who took care of the food, who tried to get for us and for us and he was brought there and he told, not, told somebody, I heard, terrible thing about the place they wanted to bring us and I think he managed somehow that they didn't, the train refused to take us, so we were not brought there. But I think that was the time when they wanted to kill us. But in Chaplina(ph) they didn't kill us because the Italian were there.

Q: At any time then, were the Italians the ones taking you from place to place? It sounds like at some points, somebody is taking you from one town to the next, is that correct?

A: I don't know really. I guess we were supposed to leave and I don't know, I don't recall who took us, really. We, I guess the people who took charge of us, which was in our group, somebody from our group and, but we stayed a long time in Chaplina(ph), a very long time, but my parents and I and that my, at that time, my boyfriend, we tried to go to__, Split, you know, that's the same name, I, you say Split now, I think and there we went also without permission. So, because we tried, because we thought we are better off because I think the Italian were, there were only a few Italian in Chaplina(ph), but in Chaplina(ph) they were shooting all the time to the mountains, I guess

there were the partisans in the mountains. But nobody was shooting back. They were shooting with, how do you call it, with big, I don't know how you call it, I don't know how to say it. They were shooting to the, to, at the mountains, but to us they were good. They didn't do anything to us.

They didn't give us the food, I think that was the Chaplina(ph), the community who gave us some food, you know, that we should have something to eat, but we were very hungry that time.

[End of Side 1, Tape 1]

Q: Mrs. Barber, you were telling me about the time that you wanted to leave and go to Split, I believe you were in Caplinja(ph), is that where you were?

A: Chaplina(ph), Chaplina(ph) was the name of it, yes, my father wanted to go and we decided to go on our own and we went to Split and, without permission, everything without permission because we couldn't get a permission to go anywhere. So we went with the boat, first with the train, I think, but yes, with the train, a few stops I think and then we went with the boat to Split and there we were about a week also and I started, there were fortunately a Jewish community still there in Split. The Italian were there, there was no Ustershur(ph) there, the Italian were there and what I started, we had, we got food from the, that time, first from the Jewish community I think, or anyway, we got food, I really don't, we picked up food like, like the, the homeless people pick up food, that's what it was, actually and we were sleeping in a room, we had one room we rented and after about a week or two, was it two weeks, I don't recall, I really don't remember, the Italian picked us up. Actually, they wanted only my father that time and my friends and I was afraid when I, when I don't go with them, I may never see them again, so I decided of going to. Like I said, the Italian were very good to us, even when they took us to jail, they were good, they didn't want me to take to jail and not my mother, but I was afraid of it, so we went there and I think we were a week in jail, I think about a week. And then they brought us to pick up my, a few stuff, stuff what we had,

what we could carry, that's all we had, what we could carry and then they brought us to a boat and they brought us to Dubrovnik.

Q: I wanted to ask you, who, of your group, went to Split at that time?

A: Oh, just my parents, we went on our own, we figured we are going, because we thought this is a better place to be than in Chaplina(ph) and so we, my parents and my friend and I.

Q: And how long did it take you, do you remember if it was a long journey to get there and how did you pick Split, what did you hear about that place?

A: You know, I don't recall, I think because we know the Italian are there and I thought this is the, the Italian were also in Chaplina(ph) but we thought it's a better place to go, I guess my parents heard about it. I do not know, I really don't know. In fact I didn't even want to go, but since my parents went, I just, I know I had to go too.

Q: And then it sounds like that you offered to go to jail in Split, to stay with your father, to stay with the family?

A: Yes, because I was afraid I'm going to never see them again otherwise, I wanted to know where they are brought. I think now, knowing how everything was, I think it was a stupid thing to do, but I did it and in that case, it didn't hurt me. I mean, it hurt me, I was in jail.

Q: What was it like in that jail?

A: We had, we were sleeping on, on wood, a little place we had to sleep and I could, I, I was lucky, I could sleep everywhere, I can lay down when I sleep down, when I, I was tired, so when I lay down on the floor, I can sleep. And we had very little to eat, but the people who got food in, that time, some people got food in jail from the relatives, they shared it with us.

Q: Were there other Jews in jail around you?

A: No, no, I think they brought, I don't think there were any Jews in that jail, I think there were only, I think they were political people in jail that time, because, but I don't know, really, I don't know.

Q: What already by this time, did you know of the partisan movement going on in Yugoslavia?

A: Not much, I not much, I really, I never was in politics in, know well, all I know, I wanted to come out alive and that's all we tried, but I didn't know anything about the partisan that time, not at all.

Q: Did you at least know that they are around, did you hear that they are around?

A: I don't know. You know, I had so, we had so much problem on our own, that we didn't think of anything else, than to go to the right place and to come out alive, which was very doubtful, which I know now, I didn't, that time I still was hoping.

Q: Okay, so what happened after you were in jail in Split?

A: Oh, they brought us to Dubrovnik and Dubrovnik, we went Dubrovnik and also the Italian were there in Dubrovnik so it wasn't bad, the only thing was bad, we always had very little to eat and we rented a home that time also. I don't even know how we paid for the room, when you ask me now, I don't know, I really don't know. But we rented the room and then it was a short while that I was working for, in a restaurant, I would say and wash dishes. So that time I had to eat, because I washed dishes and my parents, I really don't know, maybe sometimes we got something from the Italian, sometimes you could buy something from the soldiers and you could sell it, which my father did and that's all and my mother was cooking that time and we were eating when, what we had to eat was really very little, but we had some horsemeat and some food, which we got also from the Italian, which we bought from the Italian from, they made some kind of business with them, it's not really a business, just to have food, that's all, that's all I remember. Oh, then I started knitting for a store in Dubrovnik, yes, I started knitting for a store. This was just, you know, to knit sweaters,

how much money could you make, when I could get something, I was glad about that, that was a little bit to help us out. And that's all, that's all I remember in Dubrovnik and after that, the whole group from Chaplina(ph) was sent to Dubrovnik, to a place, at the same time, we were also sent to a place, from the Italian to actually it was like a hotel, not used as a hotel any more, a empty place where we could, could, where the group lived and they gave us ration that time. Ration, is that the right word to say? They gave us ration that time, very little food, but something so we can, we did survive. For instance my parents were older, much older, so they got double rations, which was better. Then, later on they brought Yugoslav Jews there and they had some money, but we didn't and they could support them a little bit better and so, some people who didn't have anything were even waiting what they left on the plate, but I never went that low down. Not, not my parents and not I.

Q: Were you very hungry while you were there?

A: Yes, of course I was very hungry. Yes, of course I was very hungry, but I was also, you call it in Italy, you say, carbinieri, that we couldn't go out from that place, we were locked up in that place, we were not allowed to get out, but it wasn't a bad place, but other than we were hungry and, and, it was right on the ocean in fact, the place, but we was terrible hungry, we, that was a horrible time and so I was knitting for the same place, where I was knitting in Dubrovnik, I was knitting and I got about two pounds, not, yes two, about two pounds a week, beans. She sent it in for the knitting, what I was knitting the whole day and maybe a half a night in order to get that in, to supplement, to supplement my, the food we had. I don't know what that's, what should I talk about?

Q: Where did you get the materials to do your knitting?

A: Oh, they sent it in with the carbinieri(ph), they send it in, they brought it out. They sent it in for me because I was knitting when I was in Dubrovnik, for them. And they were sending it in and they

were so nice, the Italian, they send it out, once a week and that's what I did and it was really not much to supplement, but that's what, that's the only thing I could have.

Q: In Dubrovnik, it sounds like you were working, you were working in the restaurant and you were doing this knitting, was there any other place where you did any type of work like that?

A: Very little, it's was very little, it was almost nothing, just to keep us going that we don't starve completely. Because we didn't have any money, we didn't have anything, that's what we did.

Q: And you were allowed to work in the restaurant or was that at all dangerous at that time?

A: I don't know, we didn't ask if I was allowed, I was only, I was maybe a few weeks washing dishes, that's all. We, who was, we didn't ask if we are allowed or not. We were not allowed to be anywhere, that time, we were not allowed to be alive.

Q: Did you have any close calls?

A: No, no, the Italian were there. Not that time. I heard, when we were in that place, I, that one time the German wanted to come in and look how we lived, but as far, I was told, I don't know what is true or not true, but I was told they wanted to come in and they didn't let them come in. But I'm sure, you know, they know about our, being us there, of course. That's all I can tell you, that's all I remember.

Q: So where were you when you were staying in this hotel and that's where the large...

A: It's not really a hotel, but it, it was an empty place where we could sleep. It used to, it was an old, an old hotel.

Q: So this old hotel, where was this?

A: This was near Dubrovnik, about, I would say maybe a half an hour from Dubrovnik, I don't know, I don't, you know, I was brought there, I don't remember how long it took them to bring us there, so I don't know.

Q: And this is where the other Jews, the other foreign Jews were brought, this...

A: Yes, yes, yes, that's where the also other Jews were brought. And this, that particular time, this was the best place to be brought, because the Italian were there. They were actually saving us til that moment, actually.

Q: What year was this?

A: I think that was in "42, in "42, I think, I think it was in "42 and we were there long time, but we were hungry and like I said, we just survived from one day to the next, but they didn't do anything bad to us. Yes, some people were cutting wood, some men, you know, a friend of mine was cutting wood and he got a little bit more, from the bone, what was left on the bones they could take off and got, got, so they had a little bit more to eat.

Q: I remember you were saying, at a different time, something about an encounter you had with an Italian detective, I believe?

A: Oh, that, he just, he just, when I was walking in Dubrovnik, he was seeing me and he said, I, and I didn't recognized him, but he said, I know you from the jail you went, Split, that's, he was very nice. They all, they all, the Italian, that time, they were very nice to us. Even, even being and going through what we went through, I still think they were very nice.

Q: And when you were in the old hotel, near Dubrovnik, you met up with a lot of people who you knew before, people from this other group?

A: Oh yes, from the other group, from Chaplina(ph) was brought there and that was the same time we were brought there too and we were in there, too, that was the whole group, yes.

Q: Was the group still mostly intact, or do you know if many others went elsewhere?

A: No, that time, I think, most of the people were, I really, I'm not 100 percent, but I think most of them were all right, that time. I mean, other than they were hungry and we, my parents were one

time heavy and they got so skinny, they were bones and skin, because they didn't have enough to eat.

Q: Did you or your parents get very ill at any point?

A: No, no, no, not that I recall.

Q: Did other people around you get ill?

A: Some of them did, yes, some of them did, some of them did, but I, you know, it's so long ago, I really, I don't recall everything.

Q: What were the rations that you were given, what was a typical day of food?

A: Very little, what we got, I couldn't tell you, a little bread, you know, a soup which was made with the dried vegetable and that's all, really I don't know, I couldn't tell you what we got, but I know we were hungry, but I couldn't tell you what we got there, I forgot.

Q: What were you doing every day when you were staying at the old hotel?

A: Knitting, I was knitting day and half the night in order to get those two pound of beans, which I got, in order to have a little bit something more and my mother did the same thing, she did the same thing, so that's, it's very hard to remember after so many years, everything, it's almost impossible.

Q: What happened next?

A: In "43, they brought us with a boat, the Italian brought us, all of us, with the boat to Robb(ph) or Arbay(ph), I don't know how you say it, but it's the same place. It was a nice boat, they were very nice, they brought us to Robb(ph) and this was a, actually it was a concentration camp and actually we had the same beds I have seen here, what they had in the concentration camp, we had the same beds, downstairs and upstairs, but they were nice to us, but we had very little to eat, like all the time, that's was our. So they ask us that time, if my mother was sewing something, they asked me if I want to sew something and then I got a little bit more food. And so did, you know, my friend got,

he was working, he was cutting woods and so he got a little bit more of food, too. But it was still, we're hungry, I mean that's, we didn't get enough, but the Italian, the soldiers, all the time, when they have seen children, they gave them even, sometimes some of their food, part of it, really, but not to us, because I'm talking about children now, because some people had little children, very few, but some people had little children with them.

Q: Was it very crowded in this camp, on Robb(ph)?

A: No, they expected more people to come in, they expected much more people, it was not crowded that time. Some people were sleeping, I was sleeping on the top, my parents were sleeping on the bottom. It was, actually the same, I didn't know at that time, what kind of places where to sleep in the concentration camp, but this was the same beds we had, I have seen them yesterday when I looked, when I was here in the museum.

Q: Were you able to stay near your parents at all times?

A: Oh yes, we were staying together all the time, they didn't separate us. They didn't separate the women with the men that time, but the Italian were there, they did not separate us. I don't, what, yes, then of course, they, then, the Italian capitalit(ph), capitaleat(ph)? How do you pronounce it? I don't know how to pronounce it well. And the Italian left and the camp was without anybody. And we had the choice to stay there or to leave and they had all the Slowena(ph), the Slowena(ph) were there, too, but not in our camp, that was a different camp. They were had, Jewish camp separate and the other one separate, we had nothing in common, but I know it was there and the Italian left and so we left to the city of Robb(ph) and were sleeping there a little bit and then we decided about, we didn't know where to go, so we went to the mainland of Yugoslavia with a boat. Some people were smart enough and left to ----.~We didn't know where to leave, so that's what we did, we went to the mainland, to Yugoslavia and it was occupied by the partisan and we walked and walked

until we could sleep somewhere and over there it was, partly, that part where we went, it was occupied by the partisan, because otherwise the Germans would have gotten us, we would have been killed. And some people went a different direction and then I never heard about them any more. Some people stayed in the camp and I heard everybody in, who stayed there, that didn't come out alive, that's what I heard. And, and we were escaping and escaping and sometimes we got some food from the peasant because the partisan were there and I don't know what to say, what else, maybe you want to ask me something.

Q: When you were at Robb(ph) still, in the concentration camp there and the Italians capitulated, what did you know, or what did you hear about the war at that time, had you been hearing a lot about the war?

A: We didn't read the paper, we couldn't read the paper and we were, we heard, we hoped that we will be saved, but we did not know. Of course we did not know. I know the Italian left, but I forgot what I heard that time, really, I forgot. I couldn't tell you.

Q: How did you decide that you needed to leave Robb(ph), before you knew, I'm assuming you did not know that the Germans were coming there, how did you decide to leave?

A: I guess I heard people talking, we heard people talking and we didn't know if we should go or not, but that's what we decided, what the group of our people decided to do. There was not knowing, because when we would have known something, a lot of people would have been saved, but we didn't know what we should do and what we did, it was just luck, to come out.

Q: How large was the group of you that decided to leave?

A: Maybe it was 100, maybe it was 150, I don't know, I really don't know. We went for the boat and it was a small boat and we were escaping and escaping and escaping, by foot we were escaping.

Q: How were you able to take this boat?

A: Even that I couldn't tell you. I don't know, I really don't know. I don't know how it was paid for, if it was paid for, I don't know.

Q: And then you did a lot of walking, once you got back to the mainland?

A: Of course, we walked and walked, constantly walking. And one time, we were in a village and we did not, we were staying there for awhile, it was taken over by the partisan. I mean, the whole thing was taken from the partisan, because otherwise I wouldn't be here, but, what was I going to say, it's, when they, I wanted to say that we got to a village and we had to, we heard that we have to escape and my parents were inside and, no, they came outside and my father said he forgot something and we were waiting and waiting he should come out and everybody was escaping already and we were scared and we didn't see my parents and I was scared. They may have left and went another way. So we decided about it, we going. So I went with a friend and we walked and other people we knew also, from our group and we walked, but we did not know where, we just walked and then later on, we came to a little village, which was also from the partisan, like. I think it was a Serb's village, I don't know, but they took us in and registered us, so I think it was the partisan, registered us in that village and it just happened that my parents were, heard our name and were also going the same way and so that's when we found my parents again. And then we were staying there for awhile and then we had to leave too and I think that time, we, I think we had to leave, we were told to leave. There was a time, they were very nice to us, they gave us food. We had, that time, we were not even so hungry and we had to leave the people who were around there, I don't know the reason, but I think, you hear that time, you heard that time, you have to leave, so we left. Our group left, it was a group, I don't know how many people, I couldn't say, but maybe it was 100. Anyway, we left. They were not all in that one village, but we found them anyway and we left and we walked and walked, we didn't know, it was snowing, it was terrible snowing and we walked

and walked and walked and some people of course, had very bad feet. I was one of the luckies, I still had the good shoes and they still were good that time, but we went, that time, we end up in Chaplina(ph) I think, that time, I think so. Let me think, I don't know if...

Q: Was this in the wintertime? Of 1943?

A: I think, when we walked and escaped that time, that I, not only I think, I know it was winter, it was snowing very hard and I don't know even how we could have gone that time, because we didn't know where we could sleep, but we went and then we end up to a village and I think that was near Toposco(ph), I've, when I'm not wrong, it was Vookavitch(ph) and we could sleep there and for a while, we were sleeping there and that I do remember and that was near Toposco(ph), or was it Toposco(ph)? And later on we went to Toposco(ph), that I do remember and that was all occupied by the partisan and then it was, or was it that we first went to Toposco(ph) and then to Vookavitch(ph), I really do not remember, maybe, no, no, no, I think first to Vookavitch(ph), then to Toposco(ph). We had lice that time, we were, you know, run down. We were afraid of lice, because we heard that some people died from Typhus and you know, that's how you get it, from the lice on the clothes, but we tried to get as clean as possible, every morning we were looking for lice.

And we were sleeping in Vookavitch(ph) on the floor of course, and we had very little to eat, I remember my mother made spinach that time, from leaves and very little to eat, but, you know, when we had something, we took sometimes something out from our stuff what we had, what we carried, in order to get some food, you know, everything would have been worse, a lot of money, for, not money-wise, I mean for food to get, that's all, who cared, nobody had money that time, we just were looking for food, but we had very little clothes to exchange, we had very little, but once in awhile we took something out to get something to eat besides what we got from the partisans and what else did we do? We had, then we went also to Toposco(ph) and in Toposco(ph) and from

Toposco(ph), we went to, no, that time they went Toposco(ph) and we, that time, Churchill's son, but I don't know if Churchill was there and the German were bombing Toposco(ph) for that reason.

And we also had escaped there...

End of Tape |

Tape 2

Q: Mrs. Barber, you were telling me about being in Toposco(ph), will you tell me a little bit more?

A: It was, we got from, I guess it was from the partisan that we got some food. We were, that time we were not so hungry, but we had not much to eat, we were in, living in, you know, in a room where we all slept, we didn't have different rooms you know, but a few people were sleeping there.

And during the day, sometimes the German airplanes came and we were scared. And nearby was mountains and I escaped, most of the time I was during the day there, in order because, I was afraid they may bomb Toposco(ph). But later on I remember, I mean I know that Randolph Churchill was there, so we felt safe already, but we heard that we have to escape because I guess the German wanted to take over that place, because of that. I think he had to escape the same time and I'm, I'm sure he did, so we didn't know where we were walking and walking and walking and we, I think the name of the mountains was Petrovagorra(ph) and we were sleeping there for a few days and it was, the peasant came there and some people had something and we were, some people took a coat and in order to get a glass of milk. It was that bad. But after a few days, when we were in the, in the Petrovagorra(ph), we were back to, I think it's Vookavitch(ph) or to Toposco(ph) we're back, no to Toposco(ph) we went back, not to Vookavitch(ph), I forgot that, I really, but anyways, Toposco(ph) and Vookavitch(ph) is so nearby that yes, no, to Toposco(ph) we went back, it was maybe another time, I really don't, I don't remember, so I shouldn't say, I think. So, what else I should tell you, I don't know what.

Q: Well what was your next memory of where you were, whichever place it was, what was going on next?

A: We were a long time in Toposco(ph), I don't recall exactly how long we were and this I do remember and then we went to Gleena(ph), which is also, I think it is 13 kilometer from Toposco(ph) and my, my parents were that time in Toposco(ph), but I was in Gleena(ph) and I was only hoping, you know, during the night, we heard bombers going to, going to wherever they went, to Germany, to Hungary, whatever and we were so glad, because we were hoping that pretty soon the war is finished. That's all I can tell you. Every day was, we were scared to be, you know, to be killed. But of course, not from the, from anybody else, we were scared that German may take over, that was the story.

Q: Did you have a lot of contact with partisans?

A: Not really, but they helped us, because when they wouldn't have been there, I wouldn't be here.

Before, there were the Italian, then it was the partisans. But we didn't have any contact whatsoever then, they gave us food, they gave us some food, you know, to live. And they gave, they brought us to peasant homes where we were sleeping and they had to give us food. Not much, but anyway, something to survive. And when you ask me now how I survived, I really don't know how, how we could survive without money, without anything, only with help from other people.

Q: I want to back up just a little bit, when you were coming from Robb(ph), back to the mainland and it sounds like there were many small places that you traveled through and I, I don't expect you to remember the exact names of each place, but what was it like going from place to place? Where were you staying each place and how long, days, weeks, were you traveling before getting to Toposco(ph)?

A: We were walking and walking and I really don't, sometimes we were staying with peasant, we were walking, we walked, but we didn't know where we can sleep and then when they found the place where we could lay down and sleep, it was just a floor of course, we were glad we could sleep

on the floor, because that's all we did, I mean they, they didn't have beds that time, there was no beds. We never thought so, when we had straw, I think you call it straw and they had straw once in a blue moon, that was really something good to sleep on, but most of the time on plain floor. And the villages we went through, some of them were, most of them, some of, most of them, some of them, were burned out houses, so we couldn't go in in those burned out houses, we could not. So we were looking for something where we could sleep. And when we found something, we stayed awhile, as long as we could, til we had to escape again and we know, that time, when we get caught, that we are not going to be alive, so, but nobody knew which way to go. A lot of people disappeared, we never know, we never heard anything any more about those people, because they didn't know where to go, or maybe they stayed at place where we left and they got caught from the Ustershur(ph), German, I don't know who killed them. They were not better than the Germans, they were just, I couldn't say just as bad because I don't know, but I think so.

Q: Walking from place to place, how large of a group were you?

A: We never counted, but I think it was 100, something in that order, that time already, because that time I think a few people were just disappearing, a few stayed in Robb(ph) and they never came out.

Not as I know. I was told that everybody who stayed was killed.

Q: And so perhaps a group as large as 100 of you, were arriving to a small village and then trying to find a place and many places to stay in that village, is that how you were going about?

A: Oh, we were parting, each, you know, in a different place and different, sometimes we found a school, you know, but when it was small places, I think they were sleeping four or five, in a village and the others were sleeping in another village, that's how they were. But in Toposco(ph), they were already a big, bigger group together, because we stayed in Toposco(ph), but then I went also to Gleena(ph) and there were a few people from that place who were at Gleena(ph) and there was a

time when in Gleena(ph), we couldn't even go out from Gleena(ph) because there was Typhus in Gleena(ph) and they didn't let anybody move out of Gleena(ph), so we stayed in Gleena(ph), which is nearby Toposco(ph), also a small, I don't think you call it town, but maybe they call it town, I don't know. I don't know what else, what should I tell you, what else should I tell you?

Q: Were you very afraid of being caught as you were going from place to place?

A: Yes. We, we were very scared, but I always was hoping, I was hoping it was, actually when I think about it now, I think it was silly to hope to come out alive, but I was hoping. And when I was sleeping in, in the woods one time, I was thinking, when the Germans come in, I will kill me, I don't know if had the courage to kill me, but I thought, I'm going to cut my veins, just not to come in a camp. I, I say the Germans, it's also the, the Ustershur(ph), it's just as bad, as far as I know. I think the, the, I don't know, but I think they were. They were not better, that's for sure.

Q: Were you hearing more about concentration camps at this time?

A: We know when we get caught, we will be killed, that we all know, that we all know, so we were escaping and didn't know where to go.

Q: So you encountered partisans along the way and peasants and were people pretty friendly and helpful to you?

A: Yes, they were, but you know, I think some of the peasants didn't even know who we are. I don't think they know that. I don't think in those places they know who Jewish people are. I really don't think so. In cities they know, but in those small places, they didn't know anything. We were washing ourself and they thought oh, those people must be dirty because they are washing themself.

They, they were really peasants, peasants in the, they didn't know anything, I don't think so. I don't know what, what else should I tell you? What do you want to ask me a question?

Q: So then you came to Toposco, at about what time was this, this was still "43?

A: Yes, that was "43, I think it was "43 because we didn't stay too long in the camp, I think that was all "43, this was the most dangerous time "43, to be caught. That's, that's it and, but I think when the, when Churchill was there, Randolph Churchill, I think that must have been already in "44, that wasn't "43 any more. Because I don't think he was there in "43, they, you know, they were bringing him there with a, with a airplane, with a small airplane, they had a field there, where, not really a airport, but I mean a field where, when the weather was dry, they could land. But also, they were sending something for the partisan that time, clothes and so, you know, because that, in the beginning I think they didn't have anything to wear, I think they were not wearing, they didn't have clothes to wear, they didn't have anything.

Q: What kind of contact did your group or your family have with Randolph Churchill?

A: We tried, not I, but my, even my, I mean my father and people who could speak the language, tried to be in contact with Churchill, in order to get that group out, which were not from Yugoslavia and they didn't even speak, I don't, you know, they didn't speak it and they wanted to go out, but the people from Yugoslav, also the Jewish people, they didn't let them out, the partisan, but the people who came from Austria or from somewhere else, were born somewhere else, they were allowed to go from the partisan out, but we didn't have a way to go in, to go to Italy, that's what we wanted, because Italy was already free that time. So they were contacting Churchill and he tried and in fact they sent two people and, to Barrie(ph) that time, in order to make connection so we can, they send trucks to be moved to Split and then going to Barrie(ph).

Q: It sounded like there was time when you began to hear that the allies had come to Normandy, can you tell me a little bit more about that?

A: Oh yes, I was, I think that time I was in Vookavitch(ph) and we heard shooting and I was thinking, my God, now we have to escape and somebody from Toposco(ph) was running up and we

were ready to escape and somebody from Toposco(ph) was running up and was bringing the news, that there were, the American were landing in, in France. So we, of course we didn't have to escape that time and we stayed and we were very happy and hopefully for a soon finish of the war.

Q: When was it that you were trying to make connections with Churchill, Randolph Churchill and get to Italy, in relationship to the landing at Normandy? Was it before or after?

A: Oh, that was after, I think, I think that that was in "44 when Randolph Churchill was there, maybe, I don't think he was there before and that's when they tried, you know, they had the interpreter there and tried to get that we could get out from this country.

Q: I believe you have a letter that your father signed, can you tell me a little bit about that letter?

A: Oh, they didn't speak with Churchill, maybe he was also there, but somebody else who could contact, because my father didn't speak English and I think the person who were contacted spoke with Churchill, he spoke, one spoke English, one spoke French, this I do know and they would try to contact and they tried also with the partisan that we are allowed to get out, because even they had to give the okay that we can go out, because it wasn't, they didn't like to let them, let people out, but they did wanted to get us out, the group, which was not born in Yugoslavia.

Q: Was most of you group still together at that time, or were people, were there less and less people of the group still part of the group?

A: This was part of the group, before it was much more, then it was maybe 100, I don't know, I wouldn't know how many, but we were in that village, around that village, around Gleena(ph) and that was the group which tried to get, you know, out from, from Toposco(ph) to, to the coast, to Split. Because from the coast, we had to have a boat to go to Barrie(ph), that was our, then I know, then we knew that we are safe, but my mother left already before, they did let some old people out with the airplane, what I mentioned they could land, that time and so that, later on, my father didn't

want to leave because I was there and he wanted to make sure that I should be able to leave soon, so they promised him I'm going to leave soon, but then he left with the, you know, you know, to do something about everybody who wants to come to Italy. I mean, everybody wants to come to Italy, but who could come to Italy and I remember I had, I was supposed to go with the airplane, but the weather got so bad then, no airplane could land, they could not land, so later on we got, that was in "45 that we got trucks, a few trucks, I don't know if it was two, if it was three. It was more than one, I'm quite sure, because we were more people. And on trucks we were brought to Split, but on that truck, I was, got so sick, I was vomiting so much that I wanted to get out, at, to get out, which I couldn't of course and I managed and we managed to come to Split and we were going over, this, the roads were open, partly open from bumps, but they still, they were free, I mean, they made them free in order to get us out and we got safe to Split and then Split, we got a ship, I think, to Barrie(ph) and then I met my parents.

Q: So back in Toposco(ph), it sounds like the, the kind of correspondence and contact that your father and others in the group had with Randolph Churchill...

A: Helped.

Q: Did that help, you believe?

A: Yes, it helped, it helped and he did, those two people did most of it and it was done in Napoli(ph), I think, this, they made arrangement in Napoli(ph) for us, you know, they brought in they send by, clothes for people and shoes for people because most people didn't have any shoes any more, you know, where the water didn't go through and clothes, military clothes and military shoes, they send it with the airplanes.

Q: So your mother and father left on separate occasions to go to Barrie(ph)?

A: Yes.

Q: And how long, approximately, were you still left in Yugoslavia?

A: My, you know that's, this was months times and I really couldn't tell you, but I know I came to Barrie(ph) in "45, my father left I think, end of "44 and I left "45, in the beginning of "45 and I was brought in that camp, transit camp from the English and I remember, wasn't that the time when the war was finished? I think so, that's the time when the war was finished, it was finished and I don't, I don't know the months, but I know it was in "45.

Q: So what did you do while you were by yourself without your parents?

A: [had a friend and we were always together and we were, you are talking about Gleena(ph), you mean? He was working a little bit there and we got food there, we got food from the partisans, that's what it was, actually the food was from the partisans. I didn't work that time, nobody worked, actually. Working, what are you talking about working? We didn't work.

Q: What did you do during the day?

A: Nothing, hoping to, washing clothes what I made dirty, hoping to come out and talking with people and living with the hope to come out, that's all.

Q: Did you still have a lot of fear or did you have more hope once your parents went to Italy?

A: Oh, this was, when my parents went to Italy, I was relieved, I was not worrying about my parents any more, so I know, I have to worry only about ourself and not about my parents because I know they are safe. That was a big relief for me, very big relief.

Q: Did you know that you would be leaving soon, or were you unsure?

A: I was hoping, the whole, I was hoping and I was, yes, of course I was hoping. I didn't know, but I was hoping.

Q: How large a group did you go with to Barrie(ph) from Gleena(ph)?

A: Like I said, that was maybe 100, before it was maybe 180, but we always, it was always less, so I think it was about a group of 100 people who came to, oh you're talking about Gleena(ph)?

Q: No.

A: About Barrie(ph), Barrie(ph), right? It was a group of about 100 people, because some people were in Toposco(ph), some people were in Gleena(ph) that time.

Q: Did you stay with anybody in Gleena(ph), or where were you staying there?

A: Oh, I was staying with some people, you know, people always, we always find, found a place just to sleep, not to, we, we had a place to sleep, okay, that's what it is.

Q: And why did you not continue to stay in Toposco(ph)? Why did you go to Gleena(ph)?

A: When you ask me now, I don't, I don't know, I really don't know. I don't know why.

Q: So tell me what it was like to get to Barrie(ph) and to see your parents there?

A: Iwas my, I remember, my mother was standing outside and I looked outside, I looked from the truck and of course she was tremendous happy and so was my father, but I remember I don't know where my father that time was. I mean, he, I'm sure he was in the camp, but he didn't see, I have seen my mother right away, I didn't, I don't, I don't remember that I have seen my father right away, so maybe he was somewhere else that particular time when we arrived with the, oh this was the most wonderful thing, yes, that was the most wonderful thing, that we, because that time I know that we are saved and I know. But of course, I didn't know anything about my sister with her family, this I didn't. I was hoping to find her, but she was in Brissel(ph), but she was brought in a concentration camp with the children and with her husband, I heard, that time, but in the beginning I was hoping I will meet her.

Q: What was it like in Barrie(ph)?

A: Barrie(ph) was, it was wonderful, but then I was working a short while for the English in the canteen and my, at that time I, my boyfriend was also working and in "46 I got married. But we were always together, my boyfriend and I.

Q: What was his name?

A: Ronica(ph).

Q: And you were in the refugee camp in Barrie(ph)?

A: Yes, but then we were brought, you know when I was working, I wasn't, then we were brought, that was, on the beach we were, they had a swim, for the soldiers they had the beach with the canteen there and we were working there.

Q: So about how long were you in the refugee camp?

A: Maybe a few months, that's all, that's when I got out. My parents were there, but I left.

Q: What do you remember about hearing that the war had ended?

A: What I remember, I, I was, my parents were in contact with the family what we had in America, of course, that, you know, my brother was in America, my aunt was in America, not my mother's family, they were all killed. Just one came to America, but all her brothers and sisters were killed, but my family which I had in America, we got contact and that was my father's family actually, most of them.

Q: When did you start to make this contact with the family?

A: My mother made it right away when she came to Barrie(ph), they knew right away from her and they knew where we were. I mean that I was still in Yugoslavia.

Q: And where else were you living in Italy after the war?

A: I was living in Barrie(ph), I was living from Barrie(ph) I went to, oh what is the name of it, oh I can't, Milan, because and from Milan we went to, near Rome and then, that was an hour from

Rome, that was Gotterfirata(ph) was the name. I know, I remember. It was the name Gotterfirata(ph), we were living in Gotterfirata(ph) for awhile. I, you know and in Gotterfirata(ph) we got to Napoli(ph) and we got the papers, that was very, very late, in "49 I could come to America. So I was from end of "49, I was from "45 to "49 in Italy. I was safe, but it still, you know, I still wanted to come and see my family and have my family and not stay in Italy, as much as you know, like I said, I was safe and we had food to eat, they have everything. I was living in a rented room, but I mean, this was okay, we were not, this was no problem, it's just that I wanted to start a living. And that was in "49 when I came, end of "49. I think it was in November "49 that I came to New York and my parents were waiting for me.

Q: When did you parents come to the United States?

A: My parents had a preference quota, because they came "46, because my brother we in the army in America, so they had preference quota, but I did not and like I always, they always told us the quota is full. The quota was full til "49, in "49 we were, we could come.

Q: Was it very difficult for you to get a visa to come to the United States yourself?

A: Yes it was, because I was waiting from "46, actually from "46 to "49. It wasn't easy, it wasn't easy to come here. We just cannot understand, but that's the way it was.

Q: Were you able to work in Italy for those years?

A: I learned, first of all, I learned sewing, my parents wrote me, when I come to America I have to have a profession, I should learn, so they had in Gotterfirata(ph) a school for, from ___, sewing and cutting ands making. And I was, I always liked to draw and I wanted to be, you know, so, anyway, I learned --_--s making and I learned sewing and that was very important for the, for the later future when I came to America.

Q: Did you try to find your sister after the war?

A: My father tried, very hard, but he never could find.

End of Side 1

Q: Mrs. Barber, you were telling me about your father trying to find your sister after the war.

A: Yes, he find, tried to find and we got a letter from, who knew, first of all, who knew my, how can I tell you, also my sister, to find her, her wrote to him, he tried to contact him and then we got the letter than in "43, in summer of "43, she was taken, they found her, she was taken away, which, that, not only her, with her two children and her husband, that I know. But otherwise, he tried to find out what happened later, but he could never find out, he could never find out and actually yesterday, when I was here in the museum, we looked it up and I found their names and I heard that she was taken to Auschwitz, but I didn't know before. I know she was killed, I mean, with two children, I knew. But that's what I found out.

Q: So I would like to just go back to the entire time that you were in Yugoslavia and going from one place to the next, being taken from one place to the next and I'm just curious to know if there were times of greater fear and times when you were not as fearful during those experiences you had?

A: The only time when I wasn't so afraid was when we were with the Italian. When I went to the places where we escaped and we didn't know if we escaped the right place, if the, if it's not, if the German wouldn't get us, or the Ustershur(ph), of course that was the most horrible time. Now it, I know also, when we were brought in "43 to Robb(ph), that it was a very bad time, that we were not so safe. I don't think now, after I heard what happened in "43, that I thought we would have come out alive. So that's what I think now, but that time, I didn't think like that, I was hoping, I was hoping and hoping and that's what it really was, but when I was escaping and not knowing where and not knowing if they get us or not, of course I was horrified, but I was hoping and it was really a miracle that I came out alive.

Q: Did you pray at all during these times?

A: I've really forgot, but I think I did, I think I did and I was believing somehow, I was believing and hoping and I think I was praying.

Q: Did you continue personally, or with anybody else in the group, to carry out any religious practices?

A: No, we never talked about that, we never talked about religion, we never talked about praying.

This, we didn't. I don't remember, I don't think anybody did. We knew that we were Jewish and we know what we go through, but we didn't. No, there was nothing.

Q: What about at the time of holidays, anything in particular during any of the holidays?

A: I knew that it was, for instance, Passover, I didn't eat bread. As hungry as I was, I didn't eat bread, but when I was in Italy, I know that time, of course, I remember there was Passover, you know, with a group of people, we went to, we were together in a room and we kept, we kept it as good as we can. And I keep, as far as, not eating bread, that's how I keep it. But I also pray.

Q: Do you think religion helped you through, personally?

A: I, maybe it did, maybe I did, but we never talked about religious, about religion.

Q: Did you talk about it with your parents at all?

A: No, no, no I didn't. No.

Q: And is there anything else you would like to say about your experiences, anything we haven't mentioned already, any lasting impressions you want to mention?

A: No, really I don't know. I really don't know what to say.

Q: Have you reflected a lot about your experiences, have you talked about your experiences much?

A: No, we never talked about, we never mentioned it, we never mentioned anything about the family who were killed and I think that is part of it, why I forgot so many things, because we never

talked about it and as long as my parents were alive, I didn't talk with anybody, actually I never wanted and somebody tried to mention what happened, I always said, I was lucky to come up alive and very few people were that lucky.

Q: And I'm also just curious if you thought about it a lot, to yourself?

A: I tried to cut it out, I really did, I tried to cut it out. I was afraid to talk now about it, I was afraid about that interview, because, because it scared me to death to start all over and talk.

Q: Well, thank you very much for being interviewed.

Conclusion of Interview.