Document

Interview with Charlene Schiff January 29, 2003 Beginning Tape One, Side A

Q: -- 29", 2003. We're at the Holocaust Museum annex at L'Enfant plaza. My

name is Neenah Ellis. This is tape one, side one. Charlene, you did your oral history

interview 10 years ago, almost exactly 10 years ago.

A: Wow.

Q: March "93.

A: Really? Almost 10 years ago.

Q: March "93. And I just listened to it again. It was a remarkable experience as a

listener, to hear it. But I want to start, because this is a post-Holocaust interview, at the

end of that experience when you were by yourself in the forest. You'd been wandering

for a couple years, maybe?

A: A couple -- three winters and two years.

Q: Three winters, yeah. And you were liberated, as you say --

A: At [indecipherable] by --

Q: -- by some Russian soldiers --

A: -- soldiers.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 3

Q: -- who found you.

A: Well, yeah, they were pushing they -- at that time they were pushing the Germans

back and as it happened -- I don't know, it was I guess, an entire battalion, I'm not sure.

But Russian soldiers, Soviet Union soldiers were marching through the forest where I

was dying, actually. I -- usually when I was in the forest, I would dig a little grave and

cover it, camouflage it as much as I could and stay there as long as hunger and cold

would allow me to stay in one place. At that point I was very ill, I must have eaten

something that didn't agree with me. And I was in my own filth, surrounded by my own

filth, and I -- I think I was dying. I don't really recall one time, I think, that I wasn't

actually aware of it, and yet I must have been aware. When they literally stepped on me,

it was dark, at night and all of a sudden I felt -- I mean, in -- in the forest there are

always a lot of noises, so I didn't hear them coming. But all of a sudden I felt

something on my chest, and it was, I guess, one of the soldiers. And they realized it was

something alive. And to their credit and my luck, they did clean me up and put me ina

tent in a -- a military hospital and dragged me with them until we came to the city of

Luck, L-u-c-k, which is in the area where I come from. And there they found a -- a

regular hospital and they left me there. And apparently -- I never saw the note, but

apparently there was a note saying -- and I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 4

this is a child of the forests. Treat her gently, with great care. And that note was pinned

to me, to my -- whatever I was wearing. All --

Q: How old were you at this time?

A: In that time -- I -- it was in 1944, so how old was I? 19 -- I guess it was --

Q: You were born in "29?

A: Yeah, December "29, and that was --

Q: So you were 14 - 15?

A: -- 14 -- 14 years old, or so, yeah.

Q: Yeah. Do you remember them carry -- they must have carried you. Do you

remember any of that?

A: No, I --

Q: Do you remember them speaking with you?

A: No, all I remember is someone kept saying yebishka, yebishka and that means in

Russian, 1-little girl, little girl. But I did not speak. I don't remember speaking. I kept

throwing up, and I was very, very ill. And -- but I vaguely remember it. And then when

I did get into the hospital -- yeah, I don't think they carried me. I think they had like a --

horses with wagons. And I don't really know, maybe they did carry me, but they did

have that. And then they would have tents in forest -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 5

Q: Camps, they had camps, mm-hm.

A: Camps, yes, uh-huh.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And they treated me very well. And later on, after the war we went to Russia

because I went back to my hometown, which is another story, which I'1l tell you about.

Q: You told some of that in the first interview.

A: Did I?

Q: About going back, mm-hm, you did.

A: Where they tried to --

Q: And when you went to the town and then tried to take your son.

A: Yeah, did I tell about that?

Q: Yeah, you did, yeah.

A: Well, anyway, but I tried to find out who were -- what kind of a te -- who were the --

the soldiers, especially the two soldiers who first found me, and were so -- gave me

back my life. And I couldn't get names or anything. I know one thing, that I still had a

gold coin, and I th -- the coins and all the jewelry that my mother sewed in, I don't

know if I told that in my first interview --

Q: Yes, you did, how she put them into your clothes.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 6

A: Yes, but a -- I lost the coat and all that. And so then I had like a rope, a -- a real

heavy rope that I wore on my neck. And that and my little penknife I had with me and

the gold -- gold coins and whatever else, and jewelry. And I still had one coin and I

gave it to them, to the two soldiers. I -- I do remember that, that was it. But other than

that, there was no real thank you or anything, for giving me back my life. But when I

ended up in the hospital at Luck, that's where they nursed me back to, I guess,

reasonable health. I did not speak for a long, long time, and I do remember that -- how I

regained my speech. I was on a ward. At that time, I mean, there were no private rooms,

or if there were I wasn't in one. And I was just in my cot, whatever, in clean sheets, it

was wonderful. And -- but I did not speak. And then all of a sudden there was an

attendant. It was not a doctor and it was not a nurse, but a young woman. And she was

sort of humming while she was doing things and all of a sudden she started singing a

song that my mother used to sing to me. And, I mean it just gave me chills and I started

talking. That, you know, brought back my speech. And it was a very, you know,

emotional day at that time. But when I was nursed back to health, I found there was one

other survivor from my hometown. And it seemed that most of the survivors -- the war

was not over yet in 1944, but for us, for all intents and purposes, the war was over. And

so everybody who survived tried to gather in a larger town. And Luck, or Lvov, which The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 7

now is called Lviv were the two big cities and all the little shtetls were in between. And

Horochow, my town, was also in between. So a lot of people gathered in Luck, and

that's where I was, in that hospital. And I came out of the hospital, I found a lot of --

not a lot, but survivors. And I did meet the other survivor from my hometown. They say

that there are more people who survived, but these were people who my father and

other people in Horochow helped escape before the war started and who eventually

ended up in what was then Palestine.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And as a matter of fact, when we went, my husband and I went to Israel a number of

years ago, I can't remember when, the st -- these were old students of my father's and

they gathered together and they had an evening dedicated to the memory of my father.

Q: Wow.

A: And that was very -- it was very -- it made me feel very good.

Q: Yeah.

A: But coming back to Luck.

Q: Before we go, can you put this on the table, cause I can hear it pretty si -- loudly.

Yeah, that's fine.

A: Sorry.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 8

Q: That's okay. So you -- you went to this meeting, people were gathering, survivors

were gathering and you met this one survivor who was from your town, somebody that

you knew before?

A: Well, she was -- she used to be a st -- a part time student of my father's.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And -- because my father taught at the university in Lvov, but he also taught in

Horochow. There were several different schools there and there was a gymnasium. A

gymnasium is a -- not a gymnasium here, like here, but it is the next step after high

school. Sort of an in-between school. But anyway, I did know her family. She was

actually married before the war and had a baby, but she lost her entire family, and she

survived by herself. And the two of us decided to go back to my hometown, and -- to

our hometown and to find out maybe some other people or our loved ones survived.

And so we set out. Transportation was very difficult in those days.

Q: How far was it?

A: Well, it wa -- by car now, it would be an hour and a half, that's all. And at that time

there was no car -- there were no cars available. Trains were going maybe once a week

or so, so you had to hitchhike, and -- with the soldiers, with the military or with farmers

in trucks, or just wagons with horses. It took us two days to get back to our -- our The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 9

hometown. And there we were not greeted very warmly. The people in our hometown -

- and this was going on all over eastern Poland, I don't know about other countries, but

in eastern Po -- what used to be eastern Poland, the populace was very greedy and they

did get everything. All our possessions, all our material possessions ended up in their

hands because when we were ordered to go into the ghetto, we could only take with us

what we could carry, nothing else. And so everything else went to the neighbors and

whoever got ahold of it, or -- I don't know how the Germans and the Ukrainians at that

time directed and disposed of all the material goods. And then there were homes,

houses. And they felt, I'm sure, the local populace, that whoever survived

[indecipherable] will come and say now, I want my house back, I want my -- all my

furniture back. I want my linens, my silver, my -- all sorts of stuff. And that probably --

and besides, there was still, and still is, there's great anti-Semitism in that area. And

they resented our surviving and that made us feel very, very hurt. And it seemed at that

point that there was a movement that -- you know how rumors start and all, and there

was a movement in our -- our -- our direction for everyone to gather in Germany. Why

in Germany?

Q: Let me ask you one question before --

A: Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 10

Q: -- we go to Germany. Do you remember any -- I know it's a long time ago, but do

you remember any specific encounters with people in your hometown when you went

back that first time?

A: Yeah.

Q: And did you go to your house?

A: Yes.

Q: And you must have seen neighbors or people that you knew quite well --

A: Yes, yes --

Q: -- cause it had -- was only a few years --

A: -- yes, yes.

Q: -- that you were away.

A: Yes.

Q: So do you remember anything [indecipherable]

A: Yeah, the first thing I would say th -- and I mean, oh, you're Professor Perlmutter's

daughter. I said yes. And, you know, and I would ask of some -- because 0-of school,

people who went -- I mean, kids who went to school with me, you know. And I said

where is such and such, you know, Marusha Trikoska who was right -- living near us

and all. And couldn't find anyone that went to school with me, or the younger people, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 11

but the older people kept saying, oh, you are so -- my -- my dear, dear girl, you know. If

only we knew what was happening, what was going on, we would have helped. Well,

how could they not have known? And I mean they were right there, we were

surrounded by our neighbors before we went into the ghetto and I-I mean especially in

the very beginning, the Germans when they first came in, they had lists with names

whom to take. And when my father was -- when they came after my father and that was

right in the very beginning after they burned the synagogues and all that, and my father

tried to escape through the back door, there were two Ukrainians right there, who we

knew, and they wouldn't let him -- they wouldn't even let him say goodbye to us. So

they knew. But that was their response; if only we knew, we would have helped. And

that's -- that -- that -- I heard that all over in my neighborhood. The house, I did not go

into my house.

Q: Somebody had taken it over?

A: Oh yes --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- somebody was living there. And I --

Q: It was a nice house.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 12

A: It was a very nice house, and as a matter of fact, I mean there were still several

rooms, I think two rooms that were never finished because my father had hoped that we

would go to the United States and he, just at that point he didn't want to put -- we

weren't rich, I mean he was an educator. And -- but the thing was that he didn't want to

put any more money into the house, and he left two rooms or so unfinished, and they

were still unfinished at the end of war, or when we came, you know, to -- to see. My

friend, the other survivor, lived actually on the outskirts of Horochow, and it was a little

village, almost like a suburb and the name of it was Skamelka. And she went back

there, and she didn't find anyone very receptive, very happy about her survival. She

was actually hidden by a farmer throughout the entire war. So she had one friend. What

is so very puzzling to me -- it's not puzzling, it's just very disappointing to this day.

I've gotten rid of the hate and the anger because it was destroying me personally, but I

feel a great disappointment by the fact or from the fact that our neighbors and our town,

where we co-existed in a very nice way, my father and mother and other Jewish leaders

were working hand in hand with the Gentile population for the good of the entire

community. And I'm not just saying that, but it's such a puzzlement to me that friends

and neighbors who lived in -- in harmony, all of a sudden, overnight could turn into

enemies, and not one of them helped. And I know it was dangerous to help, but when The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 13

my mother was digging ditches outside from -- you know, in the ghetto and she was

trying to trade something for food, not one of our neighbors would give her anything.

Strangers would, but not our neighbors. Why? Why such hate? I-I -- I cannot

understand it. And I don't know -- now I was thinking maybe it's envy. It was envy

because they worked hard, most of them were poor peasants, you know, and they never

accomplished anything in their lives. They never became educated, they didn't stress

education. And they were always working and they were poor peasants in the beginning

and they were poor peasants at the end. And maybe that's why, I don't know. But

anyway, we did realize that we were not welcome in Horochow and other people who

went back to the neighboring villages and shtetls had the same reception as we did, and

so we set out to go to Germany at --

Q: And did you find out anything about your parents or your sister in that visit?

A: Well, at that time I only fou -- I found I didn't -- nobody knew anything about my

mother, but in retrospect I'm sure that she was probably killed by a bullet or so and

drowned in the -- in the --

Q: River.

A: -- river. But -- they wouldn't tell me who, but my -- my sister was denounced. And

there again is a long story and I don't know if I mentioned this in my oral story that I, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 14

you know, gave with Dr. Ringelheim, but my sister was actually a musical prodigy, and

she played the piano and she also played the violin extra, extra beautifully. As a matter

of fact, at one time -- and that was way before the war started, my father bought a very

well known, a very -- a name -- I can't remember. It was not a Stradivarius, but a very

good violin for my sister because she was exceptionally -- an exceptional artist. And

she played in recitals and she would have gone far because it was her love of her life.

And when we went to the ghetto, I know my -- I can't remember what I said in my

story, but I don't know if I even emphasized that, but my mother kept telling us to take

only, I mean, just clothing and only the dearest things that we wanted to have with us.

She took all the pictures. We don't have any pictures, my mother did take them and of

course we lost them. But my sister did not listen to my mother, and whatever she took I

don't know, but she also took her violin to the ghetto. Actually, she should have given it

to the Germans because they wanted all musical instruments and all, but she wouldn't

part with that violin. And what she did, she was wearing a loose dress, and she took the

violin and the what do you call, the bow out of the --

Q: Case?

A: -- case, and she didn't take the case. But she took them and she tied it with

something, you know, but she would not part with it. And when my mother found a The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 15

place for her with a farmer, and it was time for her to go there, she went right from

work. I don't recall exactly how, but she took her violin with her. And I was told two

versions, I'm not -- I'm not sure which is right. One that the -- the farmer who agreed

with my mother to hide my sister -- one person, my sister, that he denounced her

because he wanted the violin. And the other one was that she was denounced by

someone else and she was paraded naked through the main street and then they

murdered her. I don't know which is the right story, but that's what I was told by my

neighbors when we came back to learn the fate of the rest of our families, and --

Q: So you found that out --

A: Yes.

Q: -- that --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- first time you went home?

A: But they wouldn't give me names. Nobody would give me names of the -- I didn't

even know the name of the farmer who was hiding, or was supposed to hide my sister. I

didn't know that. And I don't know if I was too stupid, I just didn't know.

Q: Right.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 16

A: And -- but I did know the name of the guy, the farmer who was supposed to hide my

mother and me, and actually I did know and I don't know if I said it in my other story,

but we used to buy dairy products from that --

Q: Yes, you told that --

A: Did I say that?

Q: -- yes, and then you went there after you lost your mother --

A: Yes, I did.

Q: -- and he had your father's gold watch.

A: Yes, yeah, did I say that?

Q: Yeah. And he would only let you stay overnight.

A: One day.

Q: Yeah.

A: Yeah, one day and then when it got dark --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- out I went. And I asked if he was still alive when I went back and they said, oh

yeah, h-he was still alive. And -- but I never, when we went back, I mean, we only had

an hour and a ha -- two hours they told me, and we couldn't go, but God willing, before

I die -- I don't know if he's still alive, but I'm sure some of his -- you know, sons and The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 17

daughters are probably still there, and I do want to face. I want to meet them face to

face and talk to them.

Q: So you went then, you and this other --

A: Sonia.

Q: Sonia, went to Germany?

A: Yes.

Q: You heard that there was going to be a meeting there, a gathering.

A: Gathering.

Q: A gathering.

A: That everyone who survived was gathered there. Why? Because there -- we were

safer there, because it was -- they had the American --

Q: Sector, mm-hm.

A: -- sector. Then they had the French and the British and the Russian. And of course

we wanted to go to the American sector. And we -- our journey was also an experience.

Again, there was no transportation. We didn't have I.D.s, we didn't have anything, we

were just, you know, stragglers. But we went by groups and we had to travel illegally. I

didn't have any money or anything, but other people did have some, and we went in --

in groups. And so we ended up going from Luck to Krakow, which is the southern part The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 18

of Poland. And then from Krakew we made our way to Bratislava, which was at that

time Czechoslovakia, and from there -- and people along the way, as long as it wasn't

the militia, you know, were very kind. They would give us bread, and sometimes they

would even bring some like hot soup or so to feed us. And from Bratislava we ended up

in Vienna, where the reception wasn't very good. And then from Vienna we finally

ended up in Munich. And in Munich, or right around the area of Munich, we were put

in what they called DP camps, Displaced Person's camps. Now these camps were

actually under the auspices, the people who formed and organized these camps, it was

the United Nations Rehabilitation and Relief Agency. Gee, I got it out right. And they

were the main people who organized these camps. It was the first experience, the first

camp -- I can't remember where it was, it wasn't actually outside of Munich. I think I

ended up someplace -- Salzheim, Salzheim, I think in Austria, that was my first camp.

And there -- and you know, at that point everybody sort of went their own way. I lost

my -- Sonia, I -- I -- you know, she ended up someplace else. But the first experience in

the camp was very traumatic. We were still filthy, we had lice. We really needed a

disinfection. And the way it was given to us was rather primitively. I remember we had

to undress, and it du -- didn't matter if there were man, women. It was one corner there

with maybe a sheet hanging in between. You had to strip completely and then they put a The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 19

hose on you. And the hose had white -- it looked like white powder. And that powder, I

can still smell it. I feel it in my body. That powder was an anti what do you call it,

disinfective --

Q: Sometimes they used DDT.

A: Maybe that --

Q: Sometimes they did, yeah.

A: -- it smelled like sulfur and like rotten eggs, and they kept spraying -- and I'm not

exaggerating, for maybe two hours. And it seems by the time you were finished -- my

hair was chopped anyway because I had so many lice and all, everybody was filthy. But

they kept spraying without mercy. And I kept saying enough, enough, you know, in

Yiddish or in Polish. They didn't pay any attention to you. And by the -- after your --

you were finished with that powder that penetrated every pore of your body, then they

made you go and take a shower. And of course the shower was pretty cold. But it was

good --

Q: To get clean.

A: -- to get clean. And I mean, we still weren't really clean and I think a week later they

would line us up again and spray maybe for half an hour. And they did this several

times. So by the time we came to Munich, or the ti -- by the time I came to Munich, I The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 20

was pretty decent. I mean, I -- I didn't have any lice crawling around my body and I -- I

had some kind of -- they gave me a dress, and a pants -- no, I don't remember, but an

outfit.

Q: And you were feeling better physically?

A: Not really.

Q: No.

A: No, no --

Q: You were --

A: -- I felt very --

Q: What was your physical condition?

A: My physical condition wasn't bad. Emotionally all of us were very distraught and

very disappointed. I was very confused and I still had hopes that I would find my

mother. Because they said in Horochow, nobody knew about my mother. And I

couldn't face the reality and the fact that she vanished and she perished right there when

I was there. I still to this day, I don't know, but it seems I'm -- I'm getting away from it,

but when I walk on a street and I see someone with the build of my father or mother,

they were both very tall -- though look at me, I'm a shrimp. But my father was over six

foot, about six four or so, very, very tall. And my mother was very tall, almost six foot The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 21

tall. And when I see people, you know, walking from the back and it reminds me of

their build, I have to rush up and look back and see, because I still think maybe it's

them. Anyway, when we came to Munich and we --

End of Tape One, Side A Beginning Tape One, Side B

Q: This is tape one, side two, Charlene Schiff. Okay, you new -- came to Munich.

A: When I came to Munich we w-were -- at that point we were assigned to some DP

camps, and there was one DP camp a little bit outside of Munich by the name of

Fernwald. That's one of the big DP camps and one of the ones that I spent a lot of time

in. I came there and I was assigned a space to live. A bunk, a bed, a very narrow bed,

and a little like a foot locker, like a locker, and that was mine. I was given a cake of

soap, the first time I think in five years. In the other camps where I was disinfected and

all, they didn't have that. It was very, very, very primitive. But in Fernwald it was sort

of a little more luxurious. I did get a toothbrush for the first time in five years. I got

some toothpaste and as I said a -- a cake of soap, and a little rag that was my towel. And

food was still rationed three times a day. It was adequate, but I was still very hungry

most of the time, in the beginning. But at that time, I knew my m -- I remembered my The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 22

grandmother's address in the United States. Because all my young life I think the

conversations between my parents and me were always centering around the f -- the

fact, when we get to America. And anyway, I -- my grandmother's address was 231

Echo Place, Bronx 57, New York. And I wrote a letter to my grandmother and told her

that I was alive and I'm looking for my parents and my sister, but I --

Q: This was your father's mother?

A: Yes, yeah. And she was a widow when she emigrated to America. I -- it didn't take

very -- I mean, it wasn't right away, but I did get an answer shortly.

Q: What was her name?

A: Her name was Hana, Hana Perlmutter. And I saw pictures of her -- I mean, I knew

her from pictures, because I don't know if she emigrated before I was born or after.

Time before is sort of hazy to me.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: I don't think I ever met her actually, in person. But I did receive an answer and I

don't know who wrote it, but one of the sisters, apparently, one of my aunts wrote it.

And I was informed that my grandma died during the war. Ostensibly later they told me

of a broken heart because her one and only son never joined her, my father. But

anyway, the sisters, the aunts got together and sent me papers and affidavits which The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 23

testified to the fact that I would not become a burden to the government and so I should

be allowed to emigrate right away. And oh, when I got these papers I didn't know what

-- because it was all in English and I had to, you know, go to someone who spoke it,

who understood English and they, you know, translate it all to me. And I -- I was so

happy, and I went to the consulate. And I can't remember, I think I had to go to

Bremen, I'm not quite sure where. And there my enthusiasm and my hope were

extinguished right away. Oh, that's not enough, you have to have other papers, and we

have so many people who are -- who need to go before you. And we'll let you know,

don't call us, we'll call you or su -- or something to that effect. So I went back to the

DP camp very, very disappointed. And at that point I really didn't know what to do. I

started a correspondence with my family in the United States and they kept sending

new papers, and you know, thinking they need this and that. And every time I'd go to --

to Bremen, which cost, at that point cost a lot of money to go, and then I would come

back with nothing accomplished. At that time I'm still -- 1 mean, kept looking, and I

don't know if -- if anyone else was telling you this, but wherever we went, we would

always have a big board or some kind of a wall, and everybody would leave little notes,

paper notes, say, do you know such and such? I am from there and you know, and my

name is such and such. If you have ever heard of someone, you know, please let me The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 24

know and give an address. Cause phones were not as, you know, a-available as they are

here. But write here and -- and let me know. And a lot of people did get some

connections from these information walls as it were -- were ba -- as it were. I did not

get any information from my family, or from anyone else in my town. I know at the

museum they keep saying that there were more than two survivors, but again --

Q: From your town?

A: Yes, but these people who survived, were not actually from Horochow. They were

from different villages and all, because the only one who survived with me was this

Sonia, which has died last year, actually.

Q: She made it to the States?

A: Oh yes.

Q: Oh, oh.

A: Oh yeah, she made it to the States. She remarried and she had two wonderful

children, very accomplished. One is a -- a radiologist in California, and the daughter

also has a very important job in the San Francisco area. Sonia actually, and her

husband, they lived in Duluth, Minnesota because she had some family there, and that's

where they started their new life. And she would have been another sh -- you know,

wonderful designer because she had golden hands. I remember the first thing she made The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 25

in Luck before we left, she made me an outfit from an old military blanket. And that's

what I was wearing until we came to the DP camps.

Q: When you were in that camp near Munich, far --

A: Fernwald, Fernwald.

Q: Fernwald, and going back and forth and trying to get to America, what did you do?

What -- what -- wa -- how did you spend your time? Did you have friends? Did you

have a boyfriend?

A: Well, yes -- no.

Q: Lot of people -- lot of people hooked up right away --

A: Yes, yes.

Q: -- and got married immediately --

A: I did -- yes --

Q: -- in those camps.

A: -- no, I did not. And I -- I -- I felt if I didn't have family in the United States, I would

have probably gone to Israel. And I did get invi -- it wasn't Israel, it was Palestine at

that time. I got involved with the Betar, B-e-t-a-r, it's the -- they were vini -- revisionist

group and they had like a kibbutz in Fernwald. And I went there in the very beginning

and I met very nice young people. Men, women and -- I mean, girls and boys. But after The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 26

they figured out -- and I -- I guess I told them, I wasn't going to pretend, that actually I

was hoping to go to the United States, I couldn't be there any longer. And so I found a

place -- or, they f -- assigned me another place to live. But when my efforts to join my

family in -- in the United States were coming to nothing, I decided that perhaps -- I only

had a third grade education -- I decided maybe I could go to school and emigrate on a

student visa. And at that time I felt that -- I don't know why, but there was a DP camp

by the name Benzheim and that was between Darmstadt and Frankfurt, and very close

to Heidelberg. And I'm not sure, but I think my father had a lot of, you know,

doctorates, and one of them, I think, was from Heidelberg. And I went to Heidelberg

and I spoke German at that -- you know, so I asked them if they would take me on as a

student. And they sort of looked me up and down, and where are your papers, you

know, from school? And I said I have none. And they were very helpful. They gave me

a tutor and they took all sorts of crazy tests. And because, I guess, I was a Jewish

survivor, they accepted me. I stayed there for over a year, and thought that I would go --

emigrate on a student visa. But by that time my papers started taking on importance and

I eventually ended up going on the papers that my family provided for me. But it took

three years after the war before I ended up in the United States. There's one other thing

that I would like to mention, and I do mention it all, you know, when I speak to schools, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 27

and -- which I've been doing since 1985, and we'll get back to that. I -- it was very

difficult for me to comprehend and to understand that even after the war, there were

pogroms in Poland. Not just eastern Poland, but all over Poland. Now, the eastern part

of Poland, after the war ended, became the property of the Soviet Union. So Poland was

actually divided. And the Poland that I knew from before the war was no more. It was --

a third of it was chunked off to the Soviet regime. And what was going on all over

Poland were pogroms, after the war. And the local populace was so resentful of our

surviving that to them the only solution of getting rid of us is to kill us. And I don't

know if you've ever heard of Kielce. Kielce is someplace -- my geography is not that

good, but I think it's in central Poland. And Kielce was a big town, a big city and had a

lot of Jews before the war. On the fourth of July, 1946, the local populace got together

and murdered 42 Jewish survivors. And that was one of the most infamous pogroms. I

think they mention it on the second floor in the museum, when they talk about DP

camps and all. Kielce, one of the most infamous pogroms. And that was devastating to

hear when we were in the DP camps, about these happenings. And this was going on all

over the place in Poland. So when anybody says that now there are no Jews in Poland,

and consequently there can't be any anti-Semitism, it ain't so. It's not so, and I would

like to -- I wanted to make that point.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 28

Q: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

A: Now back to my --

Q: Yeah.

A: I wa --

Q: So you -- you -- your paperwork came through --

A: Yes.

Q: -- eventually.

A: Eventually.

Q: And you were in -- studying near Heidelberg?

A: In Heidelberg.

Q: In Heidelberg.

A: Yeah, in the University of Heidelberg. But actually, what I was doing, I was not

getting grades there. I was what do you call it, a -- what do you call when you go -- you

take courses, but you're not graded?

Q: I don't know monitoring classes? I don't know.

A: Well, I mean, I -- I -- I was not -- I -- there's a special word and I can't --

Q: Yeah.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 29

A: -- think of it now. But I mean, I -- at that point it was, you know, i-it -- I mean it --

my thought was good in the beginning but it didn't work out anyway, because I just left

and -- and I went and I ca -- I mean, I did receive the word that it's -- you know, my

time has come.

Q: Right.

A: And I ca -- arrived, I was -- I arrived on the Marine Flasher. That's the boat's name

and there is a picture of the boat -- of the ship, you can call it boat, in the museum on

the second floor.

Q: Oh.

A: I mean, it's not ba -- I'm not on the p -- in the picture, but that's the ship that I

arrived in th --

Q: Where did you leave from?

A: From Bremen, Bremerhaven, yeah.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And I was sick as a dog all during our journey.

Q: Seasick.

A: Seasick, oh, and I mean I -- I couldn't even keep Coke down, they ga -- nothing, it

was terrible. And I'm still not a very good motion traveler, but I arrived in the United The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 30

States, June 25", 1948, in New York. And my aunt from Columbus came to pick me up

and --

Q: Can I ask you about that experience of come -- did you come in on boat during the

day? Did you see New York?

A: I was so sick.

Q: You don't remember.

A: I didn't --

Q: Yeah.

A: I don't remember anything. I don't remember seeing the Statue of Liberty.

Q: Mm.

A: No-Nothing, I was too sick, no. And as a matter of fact, I've ha -- I remember when

I came and most of the people were being picked up in the what do you call -- the Port

of ath -- of authority. And there were two young people, cause my -- my aunt had to

come from Columbus to New York to go -- she had to go to her sister, one of the sisters

and there -- from there she was going to go to the port of authority, or whatever you call

it. But she was late. Trai -- she came by train and the train was late, or something. So

the people who met me at the port was a young couple, I don't know who they were.

And it was an engaged couple, another cousin Rosalie from New York, from another ci The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 31

-- another sister's daughter and her fiance. And the fiance, Stanley, who eventu -- I

mean, married her, he recognized me because I sent them a picture of me from the DP

camps. And they were looking and looking and I didn't know for whom to look and he

recognized me from the picture and they picked me up and took me to my Aunt Belka's

place, which was also it the Bronx someplace. And there was my aunt from Columbus.

And I want to describe to you that moment because that is something I'll take to my

grave. When I -- when I met -- I mean my -- my cousin Rosalie from New York who

came to pick me up and Stanley, her boyfriend at th -- her fiance. They were nice young

people and they tried to talk Yiddish and it was just not very successful. And then I

came to my Aunt Belka, who lived near where my grandmother lived, and -- used to

live. And there was this apartment, a very small apartment. And there, when I came in,

there was my aunt from Columbus, Aunt Bertha -- Brocha. And I've never in my life

seen such a wa -- vision of beauty. She was very petite -- all my father's sisters are

short or were short and that's the way I am. But she was blonde, she was petite. She had

-- her hair was beautifully coiffed and she was wearing a green, a silk green dress. It

was in the summer, obviously. She made that dress. She made all her clothes and some

of mine, too. And her daughter, Rosalie's. Sh -- the dress had a V neck, with a double

collar in green and the bodice was very tightly fitting and then it was a flared skirt with The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 32

piping and the we -- the west -- the waist and short sleeves, and she was wearing high

heels and silk stockings, and she wore make-up. And she had blue eyes and her skin

was like -- like peaches. She was beautiful. I've never seen anybody -- she was -- she

looked a little bit like Zsa Zsa Gabor, only she was prettier. She was really was a beauti

-- a stunning beauty. And she started to speaking to me in Yiddish, and she gave me a

hug, and I'Il never forget that. She was so good to me.

Q: You must have just felt so relieved and so --

A: Well, no, I didn't feel -- I felt awed --

Q: Awed.

A: -- by her. Yeah, I felt such, oh, there was such a beauty. And she's my aunt, you

know? And sh-she was really so beautiful that before learning of her goodness and of

her wonderful qualities otherwise, I was just awed by her physical beauty. Everyone

was always awed by her physical beauty. She was an -- I should have brought a picture,

because I do have pictures of her. She was probably the most beautiful creature I have

ever met. I don't see movie stars who are as beautiful as she is. And she was also very

smart. And she was a very special woman. And she was very good to me. She was wise

and she tried her best to give me the love that I needed at that time. But her heart was

also broken at that time, because she had lost her husband very shortly before I came to The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 33

the United States, and she had a younger -- a young daughter, two years younger than I,

but the same birthday, the same month and same day. And then she had two married

sons. The first thing they did after getting acquainted with my Aunt Brocha and my

Aunt Belka, who was also a very good looking woman with dark hair and dark eyes and

dark complected, but also very nice and tried --

Q: They were sisters?

A: Yes, yes. And sh-she -- th-they both -- everyone tried to be very nice to me, but what

they did at first, and that hurt so much, I came, and before I came to the States, I did

receive several care packages. They said they -- they sent an awful lot of them to me

personally. I only got about three or four in all the years. Someone else was helping

themselves to my packages. But in the packages there were cigarettes. And cigarettes

were a very desire -- desired commodity. I would sa -- I wasn't doing any black market

there, I guess I was. I would sell the cigarettes, I didn't smoke. And with the money I

got myself outfitted to go to America. So I had leather boots up to my knees, and I had

a little herringbone coat. And I had, I can't remember what kind of dress, and I had

another dress in a little suitcase. My hair that time was long, and the fashion was to

have ringlets. And I didn't wear any make-up or anything. What was I, 17 or so?

Q: 17- 18?

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 34

A: But they took me into the bathroom and the first thing they did, without asking me

or anything, they took off my coat, they took off my boots, they say a young girl

doesn't wear that here. And they chopped off my hair.

Q: Hm. Why? You don't know. What do you think?

A: I don't know.

Q: Fashion? They wanted you to look American?

A: I wasn't asked.

Q: Yeah.

A: And all of a sudden I felt like a plucked chicken.

Q: Yeah, I bet.

A: And then I went on the train. I don't remember if it was the same day or the next

day, I went on a train with my Aunt Bertha, Brocha, to go to Columbus. And that's

where my new life started. When I came in, I mean she was so -- she -- she was really a

ver -- an extraordinary person. And the first thing -- she was already living in a small

apartment. They got rid of the house where things happened, and where she lost her

husband, whom I never met, my Uncle Lieber, Leonard. But she lived in a small

apartment -- well, it wasn't really small. There was a living room and a small dining The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 35

room and kitchen on one floor and then upstairs there were two bedrooms and a bath.

And one bathroom was Rosalie's, one bedroom was Rosalie's, my cousin --

Q: Your cousin?

A: -- yes. Who's also -- she looks a little bit like her mom. She's blonde, blue-eyed and

very pretty. And Rosalie had one bedroom and then my Aunt Brocha and I had the

other bedroom, where there were two single beds. The first months were very difficult

for everyone concerned, for many reasons. My aunt experienced a very tragic loss of

her husband and she also lost her business that had to be built up from scratch. And

then all of a sudden, I come in, in addition to her problems and -- financial and personal

ones. And I myself needed love and I guess peaceful surroundings. And unfortunately

that couldn't happen because of the circumstances. It was very difficult for everyone.

Q: She was working every day?

A: Yes, oh yes.

Q: So she would leave in the morning?

A: Well, she would leave and after a little while, I would go to work with her and I

became sort of a cashier.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: I mean, that's about the only thing I could do because I didn't speak the language.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 36

Q: Right.

A: And I mean, numbers, you know, taking the payments, at that time, you know,

people always -- not always, but they -- there were no credit cards, they had -- you

bought something, you paid a down payment and then you made so many payments,

you know, for a year or whatever. And I would do that in the -- in the store, in the

office.

Q: [indecipherable]. Mm-hm.

A: And so we would go. And also in the very beginning, my aunt did an admirable

deed. She threw me into school.

Q: Right away?

A: Right away. And I -- I didn't speak -- I spoke many other languages, but I didn't

speak any English. And I cannot understand why I didn't start learning English while I

was waiting to go, you know, to emigrate, but I didn't. And I came, as I said, I think the

25" of June, and after the Fourth of July holiday, I was attending night classes at

Columbus Central High. And there again I was like a wild animal, because I didn't

speak a word of English. And -- but you know, it was the best thing that happened to

me. And I attended these classes until September and by then I went to Ohio State. And The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 37

by that time I spoke some English and again, they were very helpful. They gave me a

tutor, for no money.

Q: Wow.

A: And I entered Ohio State with a third grade education.

Q: Wow.

A: It was the best thing for me, but I worked in the daytime and I attended school at

night. And life was very difficult for my aunt, for me, for Rosalie, for the rest of the

family.

Q: Tell me about how many aunts and cousins and what kind of -- what was the size of

this family you were moving into? I mean --

A: Okay.

Q: -- were they a close family? Did they spend time together, and you know, what kind

of --

A: Well --

Q: -- if you want to talk about that.

A: Well --

Q: But I'm just trying to get a sense of --

A: Yeah.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 38

Q: -- here you are, you don't know anybody.

A: That's right. And I mean --

Q: And what were you -- what kind of world were you coming in to?

A: Well, it was like I was coming from Mars. And part of it was my fault. But I had so

much pain and so much hurt. I needed caressing and I needed love and understanding.

And they, my family, in return needed some guidance too. How to treat me, and -- you

know, ho-how to react to me. And it didn't come freely on either side. In retrospect, it

must have been terribly difficult for them, but it was also extremely difficult for me.

Q: Were you in -- now that you've had these years to look back, what was your

behavior like? Were you angry, were you short with people? Were you --

A: No, I kept it all --

Q: -- what were you like, do you think?

A: -- within me, and when -- on the way to school, I would cry. When I was alone I

would cry and I wasn't alone, I didn't have any privacy, none whatsoever. But that was

out of my -- I -- I -- there was nothing I could do about that. And my aunt was so good

and so caring --

Q: I'm sorry, we're going to have to change tapes. Hold that thought.

End of Tape One, Side B

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The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 39 Beginning Tape Two, Side A

Q: This is tape two, side one, Charlene Schiff. Okay, your aunt was very caring.

A: Yeah, she was so caring and she was so full of love, and yet she was so hurt herself.

I didn't know -- didn't know how to comfort her, and it f -- it almost felt that I should

comfort her, and it was sort of a mutual thing, but then there was my cousin Rosalie.

She was hurt because I was taking away part of her mother's love, which was hers. And

then all of a sudden she had to share it with a stranger, and I was a stranger in every

way.

Q: And she had lost her father, too.

A: And she had just lost her father and she was a very -- she was the only chi -- girl in

that family, so her father both, and her mother adored her. And she was sort of lost, too.

She needed comforting. And my poor aunt was torn. And it was very, very difficult. But

to answer your question about the family, as it happened, the four other sisters of my

father all lived in New York. And all of -- all the f -- the four sisters were married and

each one had children. I became closest with Aunt Belka's daughter, she had only one

daughter, Rosalie also -- popular name in my family -- and her fiance, Stanley. And

they -- eventually they -- they did marry, I think the same year. I became close with

them because they were the ones who first greeted me when I first came here. Then The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 40

there was -- there was Aunt Belka, then there was Aunt Anya -- Anna, actually. She had

two children, Toby and Jeff. And then there was Aunt Ida, and she had three children,

another Rosalie, Henry and Joe. So how many do we have now? Ida, Anya -- Anna --

Ida, Anna, Belka --

Q: Bertha.

A: Bertha. I'm missing one. Be five. Sarah. Aunt Sarah was the oldest of my father's

sisters and she had two children, Joe and Millie. Millie is still alive. Millie must be now

about 80 years old or so. She is the daughter of the oldest aunt. But I was not very close

with them because they were all in New York and they did not exchange frequent visits

to Columbus. So basically the family would get together for different occasions like

weddings, or Bar and Bat Mitzvahs, which I never knew about because this was a new

happening for me, a new experience in the United States. But I was closest with my

Aunt Bertha with whom I lived, who opened her home and heart to me and gave me

unconditional love. Unconditional love. And her children, she had three children. She

had two sons, Marty, the oldest and Bobby. Bobby is now in L.A.. He became an

engineer and migrated, I think, a year or so after I came to the States. Marty married

and stayed in business with my aunt. And Rosalie was still a teenager. So I became --

and then there was -- also, there were some other relatives in Columbus. There was an The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 41

Aunt Dora, and these were -- most of them were related to my Uncle Lieber. And they

were very social, and I mean that's the way the family conducted itself. I mean, there

were many parties and things like that.

Q: So they kept you in their --

A: In -- yeah, but I --

Q: -- in their [indecipherable]

A: -- in the beginning I had no social life. Couldn't speak English, and Rosalie was

younger than I, and she had her own group. And usually when she and her childr -- her

-- her friends would come, I'd go to the basement. There was a basement in the

apartment. It was difficult. It was very difficult. My studies were progressing, I did

quite well. I wanted so badly to become Americanized. And I was attending school and

I did very well there, and I was still, you know, working at the store part-time. And my

aunt tried her best to be my friend and to be my -- my healer, in a way. But it was

difficult. And then there was once -- and a -- I -- my social life was not very active, but

I started -- I wasn't dating, but I saw this young man, and at that time I was very, very

naive, I didn't know anything. And I was meeting him there after school or so -- or

before, because I was going in the evening. And now it comes out, I think, the only

reason he dated me, he was majoring in Russian.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 42

Q: He wanted to speak with you?

A: And for me to help him in Russian.

Q: Oh [inaudible]

A: And so that -- there was no romantic in -- you know, involvement. But there was

once a party, and the party was an Ohio State party, you know. I-I was -- I did belong to

Hillel, but that was not from Hillel, was just a party, and a lot of the kids who came to

the party, also there were some alumni who came. And my husband had cousins in

Columbus, twins. They were dentists.

Q: Your future husband.

A: My future husband.

Q: Right, okay.

A: Yeah, th -- he had cousins and they were twins and they were both dentists and they

were both alumni of Ohio State. As a matter of fact, they were my family's dentists. But

they came to that party because they were alumni of Ohio State, and at that time my f --

my future husband visited them, and they brought him along. And that's the way I met

my husband. I was playing hard to get. My husband is older than I am, but if I would

line up a million men right now, I couldn't have picked a better husband.

Q: When you were at that party and you were introduced to him by someone, right?

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 43

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: Did you hit it off right away --

A: No.

Q: -- or did he see something --

A: He did, he kept pursuing me and calling me and I played hard to get.

Q: For how long?

A: About three, four months. He was from New York and he came from a family, very

nice family, he has one sister, and he had parents, obviously. He was in the military, he

enlisted in the military when second World War started. And when the war ended, he

got out. And he was sort of at loose ends, he didn't know what to do with himself. He

didn't have a college education, so he started going to school and trying to see what he

can do with himself. He had some kind of a job at that time in New York, but I don't

know why, but he came to visit, and look around, maybe he was going to go to Ohio

State or whatever. And he came to visit his cousins and it was, as they say in French

[indecipherable], I guess. But once we started dating, and our first date was around

Thanksgiving, we knew -- I knew that this is what I wanted and I needed. And he has

been blind since then, and doesn't see any of my faults, and I'm forever grateful. He is

the best thing that could have happened to me at any time, but especially then.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 44

Q: His name?

A: Ed. But his actual name is Erwin, E-r-w-i-n, which I don't particularly like, because

when I say Erwin, I think of Erwin Rommel, the German general. So everyone calls

him Ed. His -- his mother was German, she came from Germany. And her parents are

his -- my husband's grandfather, Grandpa Harkavy was a cigar manufacturer for the

Kaiser in Germany. And they both, Baubi and Zedi Harkavy they come from the

famous Harkavys who -- some of these relatives were writing -- have written a prayer

book, you know, for -- you know, for services and all. But he -- Zedi Harkavy had a --

as I said, a f -- a ma -- manufactured cigars for the Kaiser. And when I was introduced

to Baubi and Zedi, and my husb -- my future husband said, you know, that I came from

Europe and I was a Holocaust survivor, I don't think that they realized or wanted to

believe that anything could have happened in their beloved Germany.

Q: Pardon me, but were they Jewish?

A: Yes.

Q: They were Jewish.

A: Oh yes.

Q: And when did they come to the U.S.?

A: I'm not quite sure. A long time ago.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 45

Q: Well before the war?

A: Oh yes, yes, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: But my -- my mother-in-law, may she rest in peace, had one sister and her parents,

but she -- they still spoke German occasionally with her sister. And that was difficult

for me, too.

Q: Yeah, I bet.

A: Yeah.

Q: But you were in Columbus?

A: Yes.

Q: And they were in New York.

A: Yes.

Q: So you weren't seeing them on a regular basis.

A: No, I wasn't, and -- but that -- by the time we decide -- not by the time, actually we

thought -- we didn't set a date for the marriage, for getting married, but as it happened,

my husband was -- my future husband was in the reserves at that time, and he didn't

know if he was going to go back to school. He didn't know what he really wanted. But

we decided to get married and we didn't set a date. And then the -- I think -- I don't The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 46

recall exactly, but I think the problem started with Korea, and he knew he was going to

get called back because he was in the reserves. And so we did decide to get married.

The date of our wedding was set not by me. My mother-in-law and father-in-law and

my husband's grandparents on both sides, I think -- I know at least on one side, were

married April 15". And it was decided that E-Ed and I would get married April 15%. I

did not have anything to contribute to that. The wedding was supposed to have been in

Columbus, Ohio, my aunt was going to do that. But, at the last minute it -- the wedding

took place in New York. My mother-in-law decided that Grandpa and Grandma

Harkavy couldn't travel, and the wedding had to be in New York. We got married --

Q: Was your aunt able to come from Columbus?

A: Oh yes, oh yes, yes, she came and some of the family. The aunts, my father's sisters

came. The wedding was in Franklin square in the s -- what is it, community center or

something. And the rabbi who married us, I didn't know him from beans, he was my

mother-in-law's rabbi. My husband -- at that time my husband to be didn't have much

to say about that either and we got married, and that was wonderful.

Q: Was this April after you met in November?

A: Yeah.

Q: So, like six months later.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 47

A: Yes, yes. We would have waited longer, but with the war -- it was, I guess, the

Korea incident at that time. Well, sure enough, we were married April 15", I'm not

going to say what year, I'll tell you later on. And May 12" my husband was called back

onto active duty. He knew he was going to be called back. And his first assignment was

Germany. And that did not sit very well with me and I guess I must have been a

feminist way, way back, because even then I said, I'm not going. And so I -- at that

time also my studies were interrupted because I had -- I-I wanted -- I said I'm going to

join you, you go. I mean, he had to go. But I'll join you when I become an American

citizen. Not that I wanted to go back to Germany anyway. And so I had to wait a year,

but it was easier and shorter to go to New York to become a -- a citizen than in

Columbus for some reason, I don't understand why. So I went and stayed with my in-

laws until I beca -- and I -- I got a job at a candy store, a chocolate store, you know,

while I was waiting. And my f -- my father-in-law, may he rest in peace, was a

wonderful person. He accepted -- accepted me when my husband -- my future husband

introduced me. He used to call me toots. And he said, toots, welcome to the family. And

a -- a -- what -- yeah, if he -- if -- if, you know, Ed decided, and what he decides is good

enough for me and gave me a big bear hug and he was a doll. He lived til 103. Oh, he

was a f -- a wonderful person, I loved him. He was such a wonderful person. Did The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 48

everything wrong and yet he lived til 103. He -- when he would come he would give me

his orders. He liked steak and he liked a schnapps at night and he liked coffee, but

actually it wasn't coffee and it wasn't half and half. It was heavy cream, about three

quarters of the cup and then a little bit of coffee. And the steak, h-he said, don't trim the

fat, because that's the best part. But he lived til 103.

Q: Wow.

A: Yeah. A wonderful man. But anyway, I stayed with my in-laws and became an

American citizen and then I went to join my husband in Germany. This time when I

came back to Germany as an American citizen, it was a lot different than living in DP

camps. We went with my hu --

Q: Can I ask you a question before we go back to Germany?

A: Mm-hm.

Q: Just what was it like in New York, and maybe even in Ohio? Did you know other

survivors and -- and how are you generally regarded or considered?

A: I was regarded as a -- like in a zoo, what do you call it, when there's something

strange or different. I was not regarded as a -- a regular human being. That's --

Q: You felt like an outsider all the time.

A: Always, yes. Oh yes, I have. And yes, I -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 49

Q: In New York too?

A: Oh, well first of all, they lived on the island, they lived in Franklin square, my in-

laws, and I --

Q: I don't know where that is.

A: It's --

Q: The island meaning?

A: The island meaning Long Island.

Q: Long Island, okay.

A: Yeah. I do -- I don't know in New York really, myself. That's where they lived and

all I knew, in the morning I would go into -- I think it was Hampstead or West

Hampstead, to go to work. Lufts, it was called, it was a -- like a -- like Bartons or so, it

was chocolates, you know. And I would go to work and then I would go back at night. I

didn't go to school then or anything. Just waiting and studying for my exam, you know,

to become a citizen. It's pretty -- it was pretty -- not difficult, but it was a lot. You had

to learn history and -- you know. But, you know, I passed and everything was fine. So I

didn't have any social life at that time either. And by that time I was married and I

couldn't care less, you know? I would write to my husband and -- almost daily and so

did he. And when the time came, when I became an American citizen, I went back to The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 50

Germany to join my husband. Now this is probably -- I don't know how to express it,

but becoming a wife of an officer -- o-o-of an ar -- of a -- of a military person, was the

most important, wonderful thing that could have happened to me when I came to the

United States. Why? Because all of a sudden I was part of a group. I finally belonged. I

was a wife of a military person. And the military wives and all, accept you

unconditionally, without reservations, without questions, you are one of them, and they

take care of you. And I did not experience anything like this until I married my

husband, and until -- I mean, he wi -- became part of the military. And of course at that

time it was also, ah, a nice Jewish guy, what is he doing in the military, you know? But

at that point, and that's also like -- almost like a Domino effect, my husband went to

Germany and he was to serve there three years and then he would be out again, because

he was in the reserves. But in order, since I didn't go with him, so it was a year or so

before I became a citizen, an American citizen and was going to join him, so by that

time he only had two years or so. And the military isn't stupid. They said, well, if you --

if you want to bring your wife over, you have to sign up for three more years. Yeah. Or

something like that, I mean I'm -- I'm not quite sure. But anyway, so my husband had

to sign up for another three years to serve in order to bring me to Germany. We -- we

got some housing and all, and -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 51

Q: Where were you in Germany?

A: We were in -- outside of Munich. Ramersdorf, it's -- it's -- it was a post outside of

Munich. And that -- at that time, you know, I became part of the military and we had

meetings and I mean, there were so many things to do and you had to entertain and I

didn't know how to boil water. And there's one thing my mother-in-law did that I

really, at the time, like everything else, I didn't appreciate, but she did a very nice thing.

For the first Hanukkah after we got married, my mother-in-law gave me a cookbook

and rightly so, cause I didn't know, as I say, how to boil water. She was a magnificent

hostess. She -- and there was a large family, they -- my father-in-law was one of 12, and

my mother-in-law had a small family, but they lived again -- also, after they moved

from Franklin square, they moved to a very fancy place on the island with property on

the water, right on the water and she entertained beautifully, and she -- people would

come and visit like, you know, Sunday morning, she'd say why -- why don't you stay

for dinner. And, you know, by the time she'd look around she'd have 25 people for

dinner. And she would just do it as, you know, talking to you or me. And I couldn't do

anything like that. But anyway, she gave me this book and I was offended, but I really

needed it because I didn't know how to cook and how to entertain. But when we did go

to Germany, there were many obligations, you know, I had to entertain and -- and we The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 52

did get together, there was a lot of social activity, and I was part of a group. And even

though I hated being in Germany, and I mean, there were many instances where I never

let on that I spoke German. And so many -- once my husband's sister came to visit and

we went in, she wanted to buy some gifts. And there's this fashionable -- they still wear

them, they call them lederhosen, you know, the short -- she wanted to buy some. We

went into a shop and this salesgirl, you know, was yelling back, and she says, these are

Ammies, you know, Americans. How much do I -- you know, what kind of price do I

quote them? And they yelled back, telling them, you know, how much to ask, cause

things were not marked. And then in my purest holk-deutsch I answered that if the price

is different for the Ammies, we are not buying here. And we walked out, you know.

That gave me great satisfaction. And I mean, there were many instances, you know,

there that they didn't like the Americans even though we, you know, with the Marshall

plan and everything, we did so much for the Germans, they still resent -- that's probably

why they resented us. And you would go and you would see signs, Ammie go home,

you know. And that was in the 50's, but that's the way it was. But anyway, I was almo -

- I mean, I was -- I was becoming a different person, and it was very good for me. And

so my husband signed up for three more years and by that time we came home and we

ended up in several places, I can't remember where. I should remember. But anyway, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 53

we finally did have a son. And that was also after very difficult circumstances and this -

- I call him my miracle baby, we only have one son. And our lives changed and it was

wonderful. My husband was traveling quite a bit and many times he had to go on duty

without me, obviously. And so I had to learn, you know, how to do things for myself

and all. But life was good.

Q: What year was your son born?

A: He was born in 1956, so --

Q: And you were in the States then?

A: When he was born, yes. I had a very difficult pregnancy. And I remember the doctor

who took care of me in the military. He was born at Fort Lee, Virginia and no matter

where he was going to school since then, he was always referred to as the boy from the

south. But the doctor who took care of me, the obstetrician was getting out of the

service, and he promised me that he'll stay on, even a -- you know, if I don't deliver on

the date that, you know, he was -- actually had to get out like a week before my

scheduled delivery and he said he would stay on to see me through because I had a

difficult pregnancy, and he did. And he said that the child would be born on September

22"4 and he was born on September 224. But I went to the hospital three times before,

you know? And I remember my husband was so excited that when th-the child finally The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 54

arrived and he was coming to the hospital, he had a box of cigars, you know, to hand

out, he spilled them all over the place. But those were very good years. And then came

Vietnam. And -- yeah?

Q: Your husband was still in the military?

A: Well, after the three years that he signed up, then he came back and he didn't have a

college education or anything and he decided to stay on. So he signed up for another

three years. And by that time it was already nine years or so, so he stayed on and he got

his education too. He worked at night and got his undergraduate degree and then later

on he got graduate degree, all while he was in the military. By that time he decided to

make the military a career cause he s -- put in too much time into the military. And he --

actually he rose -- he became a full colonel, you know, later on. But -- and that --

Q: Let me -- we're almost out 0 -- on this side, let me turn this over before --

End of Tape Two, Side A Beginning Tape Two, Side B

A: Is it on now?

Q: Yes. This is tape two, side two, interview with Charlene Schiff. It's the late 50's

now, your husband has decided to make the military a full career.

A: Yes, bec -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 55

Q: And your son is a small --

A: Boy.

Q: -- small boy.

A: Yeah.

Q: And you're where -- living where?

A: We were living -- in deg56 we were living at -- living at Fort Lee, Virginia, which is

just about I don't know how many miles outside -- south of Richmond, Virginia. And

our son was born with some kind of a -- can I close this [inaudible]

Q: Sure, just -- just start over.

A: Well, our son was only three months old when my husband got or-orders -- received

orders to go to Japan.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And the entire family was outraged. You're going to take a little baby to Japan, in

the wilderness? Well anyway, we did go to Japan. Our son was only three months old.

When he was born there was something a little bit -- that needed a doctor's opinion and

care. And I don't know if you've ever heard of a famous doctor from Pennsylvania,

University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, he became the Surgeon General. Can't

remember his name, it's terrible. But he's a famous doctor and he became the Surgeon The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 56

General and now he's a -- an activist. He had a little beard, he's usually in the news.

Isn't it terrible, I can't remember his name.

Q: Koop?

A: Koop. Dr. Koop, yeah. Dr. Koop was recommended to us, I mean, that we should

see Dr. Koop with this little problem. And Dr. Koop, to see Dr. Koop you had to wait

six to eight months to see him at that time, he was so busy. And we were at Fort Lee.

Well somehow, through a friend of a friend, Dr. Koop saw us right away, because we

were going to go to --

Q: Japan.

A: -- Japan. And usually, I don't know how much he o -- he charged, but being that my

husband was military, and an officer, a young officer -- I mean, a junior officer, he

charged us only 10 dollars to see our son. And he gave us the prognosis and he told us

what to do and thank God everything turned out better than perfect.

Q: Before we go to Japan, let me ask you sort of in a summary kind of way --

A: Mm-hm?

Q: -- you've been in now -- in the States almost 10 years.

A: Yeah.

Q: Just about 10 years. You've bi -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 57

A: Not quite, yeah.

Q: Not quite 10 years, but you're married, you have a child, you've been overseas, you

A: Yeah.

Q: How -- an-and you said in the beginning when you first started talking about your

husband how understanding he was, how comforting he was to you at such a difficult

time, but those first 10 years, how do you exp -- how -- h-how was it that he was able to

understand, do you think, what you needed and what you had to --

A: Because --

Q: Could he understand what you had been through?

A: Yes.

Q: And did you find it easy to talk to him --

A: Yes, yes --

Q: -- and tell him what --

A: -- yes.

Q: He knew everything --

A: Yes, yes --

Q: -- about what had happened to you?

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 58

A: -- everything --

Q: Mm-hm.

A: -- everything. As a matter of fact, before we became engaged, I -- we ha -- we s --

we had -- we sat up a whole night and I told him, and I said, do you still want me? And,

you know, he -- he is just a very -- again, I was so lucky. He's a very special person, he

has a big heart, and he -- he should have been probably a psychiatrist, I guess, because

first of all he is very, very sharp, and he -- he has the understanding and he knows how

to approach you and how to make you feel good about yourself. And there isn't a day t-

til today that he doesn't tell me 10 times that he loves me and I am the most beautiful

creature in the whole world. I said, I just hope he continues being blind for the rest of

his life. And even when he was so ill -- you know, he was very ill and I don't want to

go into it, but even when he was so ill, his main concern was not to be a burden to me.

So, I mean he -- somehow he has the right combination of making me feel like I'm the

Queen of Sheba. I mean, I-I'm -- I'm really something, I'm important and he

understands what I went through, or he -- if he doesn't understand 100 percent, he tells

me with his love and with his actions that he does. And he makes me -- I -- I -- I can tell

him anything and everything. And he is soft and wonderful. And yet, as a soldier and

all, he was hard and he was decisive and -- and he was mean when he had to be mean, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 59

but he has never been mean to me. And I'm a very difficult person to live with, maybe

part of it because of what I went through, but I -- I am difficult, and I know it. And

sometimes I would start an argument, and the most frustrating thing is, he never

answers. He doesn't want to argue. He doesn't want to have an argument. And a -- it's

sometimes exasperating to me, but he doesn't want to argue with me. He says he had

enough arguments. And, you know, so he -- he just -- he's just a very special person.

And a -- a -- I've been just very, very fortunate. And I think he got most of all this from

his father.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Cause his father was a very gentle person, a very loving person, a very caring

person. He was one of 12. I don't know how many ended up here in the United States

and all, but most of them, not all of them, have done extremely well financially. Not my

father-in-law. He was actually a builder, you know. But money and my father-in-law

just didn't go hand in hand. It always went away from him. I mean, he made a living,

but nothing extraordinary. And yet, during the war he had a big garden and after work

and all he would come -- he was always a hard worker, and he would, you know, grow

all these wonderful vegetables and everything. And on Sundays the whole family, the

real rich ones, you know, who could afford anything and everything would come and The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 60

load their cars with all the garden vegetables and fruits that my father-in-law worked

on. And they wouldn't even say thank you. So --

Q: Were you and your husband religious? Did you --

A: Yes. There again, when I -- when the war ended, I was angry and disappointed and

hateful and I lost my faith. I always say I've had one-sided di -- a one-sided dialog with

God, cause he never answered. And I felt almost abandoned by God. Our background --

I -- I don't know what I said in my oral history before, but I think I probably said that

we weren't kosher.

Q: You did mention that.

A: I did. I think we were kosher, but -- at home, but when we would go out, I think --

or, you know, there weren't that many restaurants, but in -- in Lvov, I mean was a big

city, my father would allow us to have a sandwich with chicken, and I know it wasn't

kosher, you know, so I -- you know, we were religious at home, but not as Orthodox as

most other people. My father never wore a yarmulke un-unless he went to shul. So

when -- now I was sort of at loose ends, I think, and when I came to Columbus, there

were the rituals; Friday night, and my aunt would go to shul on Saturday -- not every

Saturday -- and the holidays were observed, you know, with traditional food and The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 61

traditional whatever else there was. But when I married my husband we had a tradition

-- a tradition -- we had a -- a religious mar --

Q: Service [indecipherable]

A: -- wedding, yeah. And we always belonged -- in the military we always belonged to

the chapel, to the Jewish chapel. And again, it wasn't something that my husband

would, you know, use the what do you call them, the Tefillin, you know, he wouldn't

do that. But we preserved the traditional way of observance, I suppose. And then

something happened in 1985. I don't know, am I ready for that? Not yet.

Q: Well, we're jumping ahead a little bit, but --

A: Yeah, so --

Q: -- if you think it's relevant here, it's [indecipherable]

A: Well, i-it's relevant to th -- because that's when I regained my faith --

Q: Oh right, right.

A: -- completely, yeah. But I started regaining my faith when my son was born. And

also, it was very important to both of us that our son get a very thorough Jewish

education. That was very important to us. And it started with the birth of our son, yeah.

Q: Mm-hm. Well, we'll come back to that later.

A: Okay.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 62

Q: Because I think it -- itll be interesting to talk about in -- in relation to your decision

to speak out, too, in those times.

A: Yeah, 1-it's all sort of --

Q: Mm-hm. Let's -- yeah. So let's go sort of chronologically --

A: So where are we now?

Q: We're -- you're going to Japan.

A: Yeah. Well, we're going to Japan.

Q: Yeah.

A: And again, I know my daughter-in-law, God bless her, sh-she's a nurse -- my -- my

husband -- my husb -- my son is a doctor, so who else would he marry? A nurse. But --

because it takes a special person to understand a doctor, you know. But anyway, she --

when she sometimes hears about -- listens to our conversations now she says, I could

never be a military wife. And I can see that, you know, but for me, again, I think I said

it before, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. But I had to learn -- well, I

didn't have to, because I was used to it, but you have to take the bitter with the sweet.

Going to Japan was an -- an occasion for us very exciting, but the whole, the entire

family, mine and my husband's was very much against it. I mean, they voiced their

opinion. You're taking a little babela, a little baby to the wilderness, you know. Well The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 63

anyway, we set out to go to Japan. We had to go to the state of Washington, I don't

know where we left from, someplace there. It was a military place and that's where we

went. And what happens usually w -- in the military, and especially when you have a

child, when you go overseas -- at that time we didn't have much in -- as far as furniture

and all, but we had a little bit of stuff. And so when the packers came to pack us -- they

call it hold luggage, hold baggage and regular baggage. The hold baggage is supposed

to come right after you arrive in the new country, cause that's the stuff that you cannot

do without. So what could I not do without? I needed a crib, I needed diapers, and in

those days you had diaper that you had to wash, and all the things that I needed for my

son, right, and a few things for us. And -- and that's the way it -- so that was our hold

luggage and the rest was going to come later. When we -- well, first of all, we boarded -

- is that what you call it, boarded a-a -- the ship, and right away the military has their

own way. So, it was in the winter time when we went, and my husband was called to

duty on the ship, to be with the troops, downst -- down there in the -- in the deep

whatever you call it.

Q: In the hold, yeah.

A: In the hold, yeah. And Stephen, our son, and I, the three month old baby and I were

someplace else upstair -- up in a little cabin, a very small cabin. The weather was so bad The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 64

that they had to tie the mil -- th-the little thing that they had for my son -- it wasn't

really a crib, but some kind of a thing because it was going back and forth. And me, I

got sick, you know, again. And my s -- my husband was down with the troops, so we

had no care except for the people who, you know, care for you, th-the waiters or

whatever you call them. And this was a military ship, so we had some nurses and all.

By the time we got to Japan, I mean, I couldn't wait to see the ground, to feel the

ground, you know, under my feet. And as a -- as we came, my husband at that time was

already a specialist in petroleum, you know, all the oils and all the petroleum for the

cars and for the airplanes. And at that time he was in charge of the petroleum for all

Japan. And we came in, there was no housing for us. Usually there is, but there wasn't.

They needed him right away. And we were assigned a house on a depot, the only house

there. So there I come with my little boy in a house with no other houses around. And I

was assigned a little Japanese girl to help me, like a little maid. Lovely young lady. She

didn't speak English and I didn't speak Japanese. And the water had to be boiled and

we had to put Clorox in it because it wasn't safe in those days. And our hold baggage

didn't come. So it was a very hard first year. And my husband when he -- we finally

arrived in Japan, he was called t -- mine -- to -- to be in charge of a big petroleum lab

which was near Yakuska. We -- I was in Yokohama, he was in Yakuska, and then there The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 65

was a little island by itself and that's where the big lab was, and my husband had to go

there. So for the first year I hardly saw him. And the thing that really scared me, I mean

you learn and you do, you know, what you have to do, and the baby was being cleaned

and all with water that we had to boil and we had to put Clorox in. And my little helper

would come every day and we sort of, you know, communicated. And she had to go

and buy me diapers in a Japanese place, and we had to get a crib from somewhere. And

somehow we, you know, managed. But the funny thing was, she has never eaten white

bread. [coughs]. Excuse me. She was used to a diet of rice. [coughs]. And -- sorry.

Q: It's okay.

A: And when she came to me, I mean, once a month I could write out an order and the

commissary would deliver it to me. When -- you know, because my husband wasn't

around. We didn't have a car or anything. So when she was introduced to white bread, I

was using a loaf of bread almost daily because she just loved the white bread, which

you know, was fine. And she was very anxious to come and work with me because of

the white bread. Nothing else appealed to her as much as white bread. But anyway,

Formikasan was her name. Very lovely young girl. We wanted to bring her back with

us when our time was to come home from Japan. But to show you -- and there I'm

mixing apples and oranges, but to show you what a custom they have in these countries, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 66

in Japan, for instance, she was one, I think of six, but she was the oldest daughter, the

oldest child in the family, and she wouldn't go with -- I mean, we told her, if you come

with us to America, you'll have a better life, you know, you'll go out and do, you know,

what you want to do. She -- by that time she learned English a little bit, and she wanted

to go to America badly, but she, being the eldest in the family, sh -- it was her

assignment, her task to take care of her parents. So she couldn't -- unless we would take

her parents, and of course we couldn't do that. Now, coming back to Japan. For the first

year, was very difficult, but our son thrived and he gained weight, and it -- you know,

for me it was a full time -- full time and a half of -- of, you know, taking care of him,

and without my husband's help and in a strange country without knowing the language

and the customs. There was one thing that occurred at that time that is -- I think I should

mention. I was introduced to something called typhoon. They have typhoons and this is

like a hurricane, I-I think on a grander scale, cause you know, Japan is like an island.

And anyway, we had this typhoon and I mean, you have to prepare yourself and all --

everything was closed and all. And I was still in that one house on the depot, there were

no other houses. But the military, they would call me, and some of the wives would

come, you know, and lend a helping hand. And there again you go, I did not feel very

abandoned. But the typhoon was very, very difficult because there was no -- there is no The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 67

-- there are no basements in that area, and this is the area of Yokohama. And the house

was a not a very, I guess, sturdy house. But we lived through it, was about three or four

days, but in the middle of the typhoon, I did get a -- I had a telephone. I did get a

telephone call from one of my compatriots who lived already in the American section,

which we later did get housing and we joined. And she called me to let me know that

my husband was killed in the typhoon. He was on a boat because his lab was on a little

island off Yakoska. Yakoska is a port, and we always used to make fun that everything

was classified, but you go to Yakoska because you know, it is a -- a -- what do you call

it, port city, and on all the bars and all it says, welcome the Enterprise. In other words,

Enterprise the ship is arriving. It was supposed to be classified, but they na -- knew it

all. Well anyway, this friend called me to say that my husband was killed. He drown --

his little boat that he was going from the lab, he was trying to come back home, and

then the boat capsized and he drowned. And for about two days I didn't know any

different cause the typhoon was still raging. And of course, thank God, it was a mistake.

Q: Oh my God.

A: It happened twice actually, in -- in Japan, you know. But --

Q: Wow.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 68

A: -- so anyway, but finally we did get housing on the -- they called it Nagishi Heights,

and we moved there. It was a very nice house. Very interestingly, the house bordered a

-- it was an enclosed area where mo -- not mostly, where all the American military and

their wives lived. And the house was a substantial house, but it bordered a Japanese

cemetery. And every day you'd go to the living room window, look out and you would

see from the fences and all, eyes staring at you, and that was -- these were the Japanese

people, they were just curious. At -- in the cem -- at the cemetery, looking into our

windows. But it was a very interesting experience being in Japan.

Q: Let me ask you a question about that. Was there any sense of irony for you to be in

Japan as an American, as the conqueror of Japan --

A: Yes.

Q: -- when you had been a Holocaust survivor, and on the --

A: You're very perceptive.

Q: -- receiving end --

A: Yes.

Q: -- of that experience.

A: Yeah, yes.

Q: What was that -- it must have been -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 69

A: Was a good feeling. It was of -- I cannot describe it, but I was -- and I am, I guess, I

-- I was a very good military wife, and I tried to do everything by the book. And just to

give you an example even then, I mean, I felt empowered. I did. But of course there was

always the worry about your husband, you know, and I mean he had to fly out to

different countries and all and I -- and that's the army, the military life is that there are

many separations. But the one thing I remember -- and I mean, we were told you have

to give so many cocktail parties and all that. And I remember my first party when we

moved to Nagishi Heights. It was to be a part -- I can't remember what our holiday was

or whatever. And I said, oh yes, I'll give a party. At that time I've learned how to cook

and how to serve the right things, but I liked to have the wives also. Because the

Japanese businessmen, and this -- these were mostly the people who had all these oil

factories -- I mean, not the factories, what do you call it?

Q: Refineries.

A: The refineries. And I mean he -- th-these are the -- the highfalutin people in Japan.

Q: Very wealthy families.

A: Yes, very wealthy families. And I said, I will not invite them unless I get permission

to invite the wives. And this was unheard of in Japan because their system is where the

wife goes three steps behind, even today. And I mean, I felt I had my rights, and I felt The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 70

empowered to do that. And I said, I'm an American and in our society, the man come

with their spouses. And they allowed me to do that. And I -- I -- I would say that I

probably established the first of -- I guess, way of including the wives. Because when

we went to the Japanese affairs, there were never any wives. There were Geisha girls,

who were assigned to entertain the men and the women, because we were invited. And I

mean, we would have a Geisha, and I mean she would -- I mean, it was clean fun, but

very sexist. I mean, in the sense that the wife is subservient and the Geisha is supposed

to amuse me, you know, with some stupid things. It was very -- I'm sorry. No, but th-

the set-up was that the wife did not count. And the Americans -- they had to suffer and

they had to invite the Americans -- they didn't have to, but they did. And they were sort

of tolerated. That's the way I felt with the Japanese. But when I invited the wives, the

spouses of these business people, I'1l tell you, every one of them came. They were

dressed in their most beautiful kimonos, th-their outfits, their national, you know,

outfits are magnificent. Each one brought an exquisite gift. And they were so thankful.

And from then on, any time I entertained, wives were always included, and they knew

it. And other women took the lead from my lead, and they started doing the same thing.

And I felt very empowered, very good about what I accomplished there. And the wives

were elegant and lovely and dainty and very, very grateful. And th -- we've kept in The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 71

touch with quite a few of them, because to them it was just an -- a wonderful treat. We

were invited once to the -- to Emperor Hirohito's birthday party, and that was a

wonderful, wonderful experience.

Q: In Tokyo?

A: Yeah, to -- Yokohama and T-Tokyo is not very far from Yokohama. And I have

made a policy -- or I mean, I don't know if it's because of my experiences but when we

go overseas or when we go anyplace, a lot of Americans live in an American ghetto.

They live in their assigned housing. They go and exchange parties or play bridge, you

know, which, you know, we don't, for many reasons. But they stick to their own. And I

feel that's wrong. When you go someplace and -- where you're assigned, you are a

representative, you're an ambassador of your country to the country that you are

visiting, because that's all you're doing, you're vi -- you are a visitor, and you should

show your best side. And we have tried to absorb the culture, to go to Kabuki, to go to

the museums, to mingle with the -- with the Japanese. And I felt that it was, in a way

your mind doesn't become stagnant and you acquire an awful lot of knowledge, and

you enjoyed a -- a -- you know, just -- as well. So there are many, many, you know,

positive things that come from living oversi -- overseas, but you have to be willing to

give of yourself and to represent your country in the best way possible.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 72

Q: Do you think that your desire to mingle with local people was also s -- driven in part

by your experience as a survivor, where you were ghettoized, and you had suffered the

consequences of that kind of thinking before, and so you were feeling some insistence

on people of different cultures --

A: Of di -- maybe so, I never --

Q: -- mingling -- it wasn't conscious then.

A: Yeah, I don't think it was conscious, but you have a very good point, and boy are

you perceptive. Yeah, I -- I am sure that had some -- I've always been surround -- I

wanted to surround myself with people. Now, as my -- you know, as I'm getting older,

in the golden years, I enjoy solitude. I am never bored with myself, I don't have enough

time to myself. But in those days, yes, it was wonderful to be surrounded by people and

especially of a different culture and to learn. And I mean, I knew the background, I

knew the history and it's always, you know, maybe I didn't know as much, but I knew,

I mean they -- they were the perpetrators and they were very cruel and th-then I learned

about the Shanghai Jews, who survived in Shanghai.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: But the psyche of a Japanese is --

End of Tape Two, Side B

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A: -- about Japan.

Q: [indecipherable] about Japan. This is tape three, side one, of Charlene Schiff. You

were talking about the psyche of the Japanese.

A: They -- they're very inscrutable, is there such a word? You never know what they

really think. They always have a smile on their face, and they would say yes, they --

they hate to say no. It's like yes, we have no bananas. And it's true. But we have made

some wonderful friendships there. My husband had a very loyal crew. He needed to

depend a lot on the Japanese because -- and this was all classified stuff, with the testing

of all the jet fuels and all. And he had a very responsible job there. And we've made

many friends among the military. And as a matter of fact, that's where I first took up

Chinese cooking. I -- Chinese, and that's Japan. What was happening, there were two

Benedictine sisters in Tokyo, and they were stranded during the war. They came from

China, they were working in China, Americans. And they were stranded in Japan with

no income, no way of making a livelihood. And so they opened a school for the

military, for the -- all the military in -- in the area, and started teaching Chinese

cooking. And these schools became so famous that all the embassy people, you know,

wanted to -- it wa -- it took about a year or so to go through the course. I had to wait a The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 74

full year to be able to f -- you know, to enroll. And they came out with a little booklet

of -- well, a little cookbook where they adapted the Chinese recipes to American

consumption. And they were so much fun and it was a fantastic experience. For a whole

year I took this cooking course. And they -- they -- we corresponded until they passed

on. But it was very well known in the embassy and all, all the wives were just waiting,

you know, to attend this. Then I also took cor -- courses in flower arranging. I tried to,

you know, get more culture, what have you.

Q: Ikebana.

A: Ikebana, that's right. And I was learning, and that I took for three years. And I

passed, now I have a Japanese professional name, and I became an instructor, and don't

ask me to arrange two flowers now, cause I don't know how. But I mean, the lines and

all, it's very, very precise, and very exact. And I attended these classes for three years

and I came back home and that all of a sudden -- I did know that you don't need a

dozen roses to make an arrangements, can make it -- an arrangement, you can make it

with one rose. And I enjoyed that very much. We attended kabuki and we traveled quite

a bit. It was a good time, yes.

Q: What were the years that you were in Japan?

A: It was "56 when my son was born, til 60.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 75

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Yeah.

Q: And then -- let me ask you one thing about Japan. Was your being a survivor an

issue in any way with anyone? With you, or with any of the other Americans that you

knew --

A: No.

Q: -- or with the Japanese? And was that okay --

A: The Japanese couldn't -- wouldn't know, no.

Q: And was that okay with you, was it --

A: Yes.

Q: -- [indecipherable] knew --

A: No, actually, when I married my husband it seems like I went into a different world,

and I had no connection with survivors, not at all. And I mean, I didn't know anyone. I

-- I did keep in touch with my friend Sonya in Duluth and -- and of course with my

family in Columbus and New York. But no, I had no connection with any other

survivors. And you know what? That was good --

Q: You think?

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 76

A: -- at that time, yes. I needed that. I -- when I married my husband I felt that -- and I

mean when I came here, I wanted to become Americanized overnight. And that desire

didn't leave me and when I met my husband and when we married, I wanted him to be

proud of me and not to be referred as the greener. And you know what a greener

means? A greener means the -- the -- when you're green means your -- you're a -- a

stranger.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And they always say the greener couzina. The couzina's like a cousin. And in

Yiddish it's the greener couzina, it means the -- the stranger who doesn't know how to

pick up a fork, you know. I -- I wanted to become Americanized and I didn't feel that

until I became Mrs. Erwin H. Schiff. And I-I don't know, but in Japan I don't think -- if

anyone was aware of it, they didn't question it, they didn't treat me any differently. I

was one -- we did make friendship a lo -- a lot of friends. We met friends in Japan and

we have one couple, the husband just died in -- suddenly. But we've been friends since

Japan and they are Jewish. He was a lawyer and he had open heart surgery. The surgery

was a success, then he got an infection, you know, what do you call it, that horrible

thing, and he died. And -- and his wife and my husband and J are still dear friends and

we keep in touch almost on a daily basis. She lives part-time here and part-time in The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 77

Newport, Rhode Island. But -- and we met in Japan. So we were active there in the

chapel, in the Jewish chapel and we had several Bar Mitzvahs and all that took place

there. So -- but nobody ever made an issue of where I come from. I was -- what was he

at that time, I think a major -- Major Schiff's wife, Charlene.

Q: Well, military is --

A: Militar --

Q: -- an equalizer.

A: That's right, the great equalizer. And I mean, sometimes you wonder how things

happen. I mean, a Jewish boy, they kept saying, a Jewish boy going th-the military,

making a career out of it? It's unheard of. And -- and coming ba -- well no, we haven't

reached Vietnam yet, have we?

Q: No [indecipherable]

A: Not yet. But yes, it was the great equalizer for me, and it was the best thing that

could have happened to me. My daughter-in-law, as I said, said she could have never

been a military wife. But I mean, the hardship that come -- th-that -- the hardships that

come with -- with being in the military are many. And I mean, the moving around -- our

son was in 17 different schools before he attended high school.

Q: Wow.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 78

A: Yeah, he -- didn't hurt him one bit. He entered he -- he -- his -- he went to Princeton.

Then, you know, he went to medical school. Did medical school in three years, then

trained in har -- at Harvard for his specialty, urology for seven years. And now, you

know, is in private practice, and teaches part time in Brown. And when he got out from

Harvard he was in -- at Yale as a -- on the staff and faculty of the medical school. So it

didn't hurt him, not at all. But you mix the bitter with the sweet, and it's an experience.

And it takes a special person to be a good army -- a m -- a military wife. And in the

early years it seemed that the wife doesn't have much to say. You go where the husband

has to si -- to -- to go. And that is still true. But yet, you can leave your mark. You can

do things that you want to do. When I established this precedent, I mean, it wasn't

happening until then that the wives, the Japanese wives were invited to cocktail parties

and all. It was a fantastic achievement and I'm still proud of it.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: So, you know, there are pros and cons and --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- for me it was good.

Q: Yeah. So you came back to this -- did you come stateside in 1960 --

A: Yeah, we came back to the States -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 79

Q: -- and this is -- you -- you had --

A: -- yeah. 1961.

Q: -- all this is -- you mentioned the era of Vietnam.

A: Yeah, well Ed, at that time I think he was assigned to Fort Lee again. No, I think he

was assigned not -- yes -- no, to the Pentagon. But at the Pentagon he was only, I think,

a year. And then we went to Fort Lee again. And then -- I can't remember exactly what

year -- we were active at Fort Lee, that's the quartermaster headquarters. And my

husband was still with petroleum and all, but he was at Fort Lee, you know, assigned

permanently to Fort Lee, Virginia, but he spent an awful lot of time at the pentagon. So

again I -- he'd go for two weeks and come back maybe for three days. And so it was,

you know, that I was there for my s -- for our son. We were very much involved there,

at Fort Lee with the Jewish chapel. And that's where we met a very wonderful man,

Rabbi Elster. Rabbi Elster was serving the military, his -- what was it, two or three

years, and then was going to get out and be a rabbi in the civilian world. We became

fast friends, Rabbi Elster and Shulamit Elster, and now they have three married kids.

But our friendship started at Fort Lee. My husband was at Fort Lee and then he got

orders for Vietnam. I think it was 1964, and between Fort Lee and -- and the Pentagon,

you know, and some other places that he would go like for six weeks and come back.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 80

When he was assigned to Vietnam the first time, in 1965, was the beginning of our

involvement. Well, the military involvement. I think they had advisors and all earlier.

But in 1965 my husband was called on to go to Vietnam. He was very much against our

involvement in Vietnam, and when he got -- but he was in the military and they ordered

him, so he went. He expressed his, I guess his views to the higher ups, and he wasn't

the only one, because he said, this is a kind of war that we cannot win, because we are

trained to conduct a -- a re -- what do you call it, a -- a regular war, and these people are

not terrorists, but they are guerillas and they were fighting the war in Vietnam from the

underground. They had th -- we went to Vietnam just five years ago, and I saw these

tunnels and all. They were fighting everything from the underground. And my husband

and several -- and other people, the younger, the younger officers said this is ki -- the

kind of war it cannot be won. But of course, they didn't listen to them. But, when my

husband got orders to Vietnam, I decided in my infinite wisdom -- I'm being sarcastic -

- to go to Columbus, to stay in Columbus. Why? Because I had family there, my aunt

was still there. I -- so I rented an apartment near where she lived, and enrolled my son,

at that time I think he was in third grade, and he had his cousins there, you know. I say

cousins, but they were my cousins, but he counted them as his cousins. And we lived

the year that my husband was in Vietnam in Columbus, Ohio. Was a miserable year.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 81

Why? Everybody that I knew and everybody who knew me was always asking, what is

your husband doing in Vietnam? Why didn't he go to Canada?

Q: Oh.

A: Because some of these people went to Canada. And I even got into a fight at an

airpor -- at the airport. And there were some young people picketing, you know, and

protesting the war. And at that time I felt my husband is there, I didn't know the

situation, but his country, right or wrong. And he's serving his country, he's there. And

I didn't like the way they propr -- they were protesting and screaming, you know, and

cursing and all, and I slapped one guy in the face. I almost ended up in jail. But that was

my experience you know, in -- in Columbus. It was not a good experience. And after

that, when my husband came back -- and that -- that first year was also very -- I did get

a call that my husband was killed and that was -- he was assigned again with petroleum.

All the oils and the jet fuels and all for -- for the entire area. And at that time he -- the

headquarters were in Saigon and they were -- there was a big inter -- there was a -- a --

a big explosion, it was all over the news, and in a great hotel -- I forgot the name of the

hotel, and a lot of Americans lost their lives. As it was, my husband had a meeting at

that ho -- in that hotel with some generals and all, I don't know what it was, and he

wrote me daily, and -- that first year that he was in Vietnam. And he told me he was The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 82

going to be, you know, in Saint Regis, I think, hotel on Tuesday of whatever. That --

the letters would go about a week or so, and that Tuesday when he was supposed to be

there, they had a big ex -- they bombed the -- the guerillas, the hotel and -- and you

know, there were a lot of casualties. And I called the Red Cross to find out what was

happening, and they -- that's why I'll never give another penny to the Red Cross -- and

they called me back that my husband was killed. And as it happened, my husband was

in the hotel and left five minutes before the explosion. So, you know, lucky for me and

for him. When he came back from Vietnam he was smoking something like two packs

of cigarettes a day. He was, I think, bone -- skin and bone and his hands were shaking.

He -- he was a mess. Very -- I mean, physically very frail. He was a young man at that

time. And it wa -- it was very sad to watch. And then when he came, with the reception

he got in Columbus was just absolutely dem-demoralizing. His next orders were to

work with the chiefs of staff and the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon. And so he

ended up working in the Pentagon, and we bought our first and only modest house in

Springfield, Virginia, which is a suburb here. And that was the first time that our

Stephen, our son, went to the same school two years in a row. And he worked in -- in

the Pentagon. I never saw him because most of the time the hours were miserable. But

he kept on saying that, you know, he and other young -- they called them the young The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 83

Turks -- kept saying that Vietnam is something we should never have gotten involved

in. Well, lo and behold, in 1969 he got orders to go back to Vietnam to the same

petroleum job. But this time he was going to Play Ku, which is the mountainous area.

And he -- this time he had his own chopper and he had to supply the fuels not just for

Vietnam, but for the entire area of all the countries around, a very big job. And he had

to -- actually had to build the pipes and all that go. And there again, he spent a -- a year,

that was -- had many close calls. Once the -- the chopper that he was in -- he had a

pilot, he didn't pilot it himself, but it was -- there was an explosion. All the buttons on

his shirt were ripped off and he came out with a s -- without a scratch. And there were

several -- and then, I mean, he worked so hard. And it wa -- and then they had to go into

Cambodia, which was a classified thing, I wasn't supposed to know about it, and all

that. Finally, thank God, he came back. He came back and he was assigned -- and again,

he had several very big arguments with his superiors. He, and other young men,

officers. And they were, of course they weren't listened to. And he ended up again at

the Pentagon. And at that time they promised him a star. He was going to become a

general if he would give up his ideas about Vietnam. He couldn't do that. And that's

when he retired. In a way as a protest, you know. And then he went to work, you know,

different places and all. And at that time, after he retired, we decided to make our home The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 84

here, to stay where we -- we still had the little house, and our son was a big man on

campus in high school here. And he went to work for a -- an association, my husband.

And at that time, in 1983, I think we had the first Holocaust survivors meeting here in

Washington, and I attended it. Meanwhile, and then at -- this is again not correct

chronologically, before my husband went for the second time to Vietnam, we belonged

to Fort Belvoir, which is a military group here, and there was a Jewish chapel and a

chaplain. We did get a call from our old friend, Rabbi Elster, who said that he was

coming to take over the pulpit at Agudas Achim in Alexandria. And of course, when we

heard that, we joined Agudas Achim and we are still members today. But Rabbi Elster's

not there any more. But at that time we refreshed -- I mean, we -- we -- we were such

good friends to begin with, it was wonderful to be again with them, with the Elsters,

and he became our rabbi. And we belonged to Agudas Achim and we still belong to

Fort Belvoir.

Q: Before we get to the 1983 meeting, let me ask you a question and a half.

A: Yeah?

Q: Your son was in high school --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- around in the 70's when your husband left the military and you were living -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 85

A: Yeah.

Q: -- in this area, and stabilized.

A: Yes

Q: [indecipherable] stable, more stable. You were looking around [indecipherable]

A: Yeah, yes. The first time in the same place for more than a year or two.

Q: And you had this long friendship with this rabbi --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- who later becomes, I know, instrumental in your own decision to --

A: Yes, that's right.

Q: -- become active. But I want to know if -- h-how -- I don't even know how to ask it.

Your hap -- your being a survivor, was this something that you had ex -- talked to your

son about up until that time? Did he know, and how did you tell him, and was that -- or

was it an issue? Di -- was it difficult to tell him, was it a -- a sensitive --

A: No. It was an issue for the simple reason that I was very ill from the time he was

very little. And I had many physical problems and I -- but a --

Q: Relating to your experience --

A: Probably everything related, you know, I have ulcers, I had other very serious progre

-- problems. And that was one reason that he wanted to become a doctor from the time The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 86

he was four years of age, cause mommy was always sick. And mommy was sick -- and

I mean, even in spite of her being sick, she always did everything and nobody really

knew that much, but I had an awful lot of sickness. But -- so that was not much of a

problem. He knew. And I don't know how much he comprehended when he was very

young, but he always, when -- when my husband went to Vietnam the first time, he

says, I'm going to be the man of the family, I'll take care of Mommy. And he did. He --

he was a wonderful boy from the very beginning. We never had any problems with him.

He never smoked, he never drank, he never -- he was never on drugs, he was always

just a straight arrow. And the thing -- it must have been very difficult on him. I -- his

father was a wonderful father and is a wonderful, very even tempered and all. I was the

explosive one. I was the one who demanded -- demanded more than perfection, because

-- in retrospect, I didn't realize then, but in retrospect I think I tried to live my youth

through my son.

Q: Which had been robbed from you.

A: Yes. But he had to be more perfect than perfect. He had to have straight A's, and he

had to take all advanced courses, and he had to be the big man on campus. And he

didn't live up to one -- he wa -- he never had straight A's even in high school, but yet,

he was the one -- the only one who was accepted at sprin -- to Princeton. He -- he was a The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 87

wonderful student, but he was so busy with other things too, that he just didn't get

straight A's. I think he had two B's or so. But the valedictorian from the high school

didn't get into Princeton, but Stephen did. Has a wonderful personality and he -- he did

everything beautifully. He -- he would make a wonderful lawyer, he would make a

wonderful politician. He is just good with people, because he was always with people

and he always had to face new friends because we moved so much. And it did -- it did

come and | mean it di -- it was good for him. And he is very cosmopolitan, he's very

sophisticated, and he feels good and felt good about himself. I instilled on him that

there is nothing he cannot do. I told him, you are better than anybody else, and I was a

little bit too demanding. So he knew all the things; as time progressed I would tell him

stories, and he was very -- hi-his -- the way he received it was very adult like, very

adult like. And he was, I guess, used to being sort of the head of the family when my

husband wasn't there. So he said, don't worry, Mommy, I'll take care of you, I'll take

care of you. And he did. He was very good and he was -- we had an awful -- even

though when I -- the second time when my husband was in Vietnam, I already lived

here in Springfield in our little house. And there were a lot of nasty things that were

going on. I would get phone calls in the middle of the night, your husband is in

Vietnam, we know you're alone, you know. And I would call the police and they would The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 88

say I have to -- they cannot do anything unless they are there. We installed a -- what do

you call it, a --

Q: Security --

A: -- a security thing and they tried to break in twice. And Stephen was always just with

a -- you know, a -- a bat in his hand, you know, he was going to take care of. So he was

very mature for his age and nothing surprised him any more. And he's also -- he's a

little bit like his father, he's a wonderful son and I think he's a wonderful husband and a

wonderful father. Of course, I'm being prejudiced at this point, but he really is a very

good person. He -- he is a -- a urologic surgeon and he lives now in provident -- outside

Providence, Rhode, Island, and it's a very poor state and there are many people that he

treats pro bono, because they don't have insurance, what is he gonna do? And -- but

anyway, he --

Q: We finished this side.

A: Okay.

End of Tape Three, Side A Beginning Tape Three, Side B

Q: This is tape three, side two of Charlene Schiff.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 89

A: Actually, what I didn't say before, I said I didn't have any contact with survivors. I

did keep in touch with one survivor who -- whom I met in a DP ca -- in the Benzheim

DP camp, and I still keep in touch with her, off and on. She survived with her mother,

and we kept in touch off and on. Now, I did see her last year, and I don't know if I

should even say it, but all of a sudden I look at her -- her mother died since and she has

remar -- she married and she just lost her husband, she has three children. She was a

wonderful girl and we were very like, you know, real friends. And now when I came --

they live in flor -- she lives in Florida, I found I have nothing in common with her

except the fact that we were in the DP camp together, in the same DP camp. And I

don't know if this is a strange occurrence but all of a sudden -- interestingly enough,

when we were in DP camps we didn't discuss our pasts. Most of us did not discuss our

past. I didn't even know -- I knew that she survived, I think, in Russia, 1-in the Soviet

Union, she was not in, you know, in -- in Hitler's -- under Hitler's regime. But when I

met her last year, we had nothing in common. How can that happen? And, I mean, it

was nice to see her and all, but nothing in common. But -- do we go back to what, to

83?

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 90

Q: Well, we were talking ab -- you were saying about -- I had asked you about your son

and how much he knew and how -- what -- you know, what -- how you transferred all

of that --

A: To him. Well --

Q: -- history, and -- and was it important -- obviously it was important to you to --

A: Yes, yes.

Q: -- that he knew. I mean, that's not always the case, I th --

A: Yes, and he was interested.

Q: Yeah.

A: He was very interested, and he -- he a-again, he is a very sweet boy and -- and was a

sweet boy and he gave me his love and his caring and was very demonst -- it -- it was

demonstrated in a very obvious way, and that was very nice. And he -- he d -- I think --

I don't know if he understood everything, but it was given to him -- I -- I gave it to him

gradually. And it wasn't shocking to him, and he -- because he -- he says, well, that's

why you've been so ill. And it made a lot of sense to him. And then in 90 -- 1992, I

think, I can't remember and I shouldn't jump ahead, but just to make a point, we had

one of our annual gatherings, the child survivors. We consider ourselves a separate

group, not all survivors, but the child survivors. And we, for the first time we organized The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 91

a -- we had a second generation panel, and my son came. At that time he was already

married. And he was the leader of the second generation. And everyone in that second

generation, and th-that's another story, tried to blame the parents for their short -- for

their shortcomings or for their not realizing their dreams or so, because their parents

were survivors. And Stephen said that he and I got along and he accepted me the way I

was because I am his mother. But he didn't blame the Holocaust for my what do you

call it? Peculiarities or for my idiosyncrasies. I was his mother, and as his mother he

loved me the way I am. And that was his main argument, that it didn't have anything to

do with being a survivor. He accepted me the way I was. He didn't blame it on the

Holocaust or on my being a survivor, why I had temper tantrums, why I yelled at him,

why I wanted him to be better than perfect. He felt that's the way I am and that's what I

wanted from him. And I don't know, but maybe it was good. Was a very healthy, it

seems to me, attitude. And now he's very interested. He doesn't have much time to be

involved with second generation, but like two months from now or I think this early

spring, I'm being invited by my grandsons class to speak about my experiences, and

he'll introduce me. And that is a day that I can't wait for. And my grandson does not

know much. He does, but he is now 11 and when Stephen was 11 he knew a lot more.

My grandson knows when I come, or when I went t -- he was younger, and even now The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 92

he says, Nana, would you sing me these songs that are not in English? Lullabies or so.

And you know -- and he knows a little bit, the older one, but not as much as my son did.

Q: Hm. That's interesting. It's all --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- it's always interesting to me how people choose to tell the next generation.

A: Yeah.

Q: When they do it, how they do it.

A: Yeah.

Q: It's always different with every person. But it sounds like for you, you never

questioned that you should.

A: No, no.

Q: All along. It was never choice, you just --

A: Never questioned, only had one [indecipherable] all basket -- all eggs in one basket,

and he needed to know.

Q: Yeah.

A: He -- and when he was very young, he says how come everybody has two sets of

grandparents and I only have one? You know. And that's the way it started, you know,

but I tried to make it not so that he would have nightmares, you know, and make it The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 93

more palatable, I don't know. And it was a way of life, that's the way -- just like his

father was a military man, and there were no questions, that's they way it was.

Q: And -- and one more question before we get to 1983 and take a little break. It seems

like from what you're saying that from the time you came to the U.S. in the late 40's,

until this period after your husband came back from Vietnam, you had so many travels,

so many different experiences, so much -- you know, in raising a son. But it sounds like

between the lines that yo -- in a way, that you have healed.

A: Well --

Q: Part of you has -- is found a place, found a life --

A: -- come -- yes, yes.

Q: -- and made a happy and safe place for yourself.

A: Well, and I'll tell you, I have never been nosh -- they 0 -- this -- in schools I get

many questions -- I mean, many schools are -- are -- are you being seen by a

psychiatrist, did you have what do you call it? When you go through years of --

Q: Therapy.

A: -- therapy. I've never seen a psychiatrist, I've never gone through therapy. I think

my healing came from my family, from my husband and my son. And my aunt. No

matter what, may she rest in peace, she was an angel. I really miss her so much. She -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 94

she and I understood each other finally, and I -- I don't know if I appreciated her as

much when I first came to this country as she deserved to be appreciated, but I loved

her with all my heart, and she deserved that love.

Q: Isn't it amazing how one person can make a difference in a life?

A: Oh yes, yes. Mm-hm.

Q: Yeah.

A: When I came here, I mean, my mother was a teacher by profession, but she wasn't

teaching. I don't remember her ever teaching. She did an awful lot of philanthropic

things in our town and as a matter of fact, she organized camps for poor children,

Jewish children and Gentile chil -- children. And I mean not she alone, but she was

always the head of it. And so she wasn't, you know, sitting at home and all, but we

always had a lot of quality time, and I didn't learn how to cook and all, who would ever

think? But my mother set a beautiful table, and we always had a lot of people, was an

open house, people were coming and going. And she -- and I always -- I remember like

for Passover or so, I mean, there was crystal and there was silver, and the linen

tablecloths and china. And I've always missed that, and I remember even in the forest, I

would sort of daydream, gosh, when I grow up, Momma will come and show me how

to set a pretty table. And then when I came to the States, to the United States, my aunt, I The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 95

don't know what it was, but she set a beautiful table, even though that her heart was

crying within her, but the holidays, Thanksgiving and Passover, the little time that we

spent that I was there, she set a beautiful table with linens and crystal and I told her, that

reminds me of home.

Q: Mm.

A: And to me even now -- we live in an apartment and usually it's all right, now it's a

mess, but I don't entertain any more, nobody does. But nothing gives me greater

pleasure than to set a pretty table. And it somehow brings me closer to my past. And my

daughter-in-law, I mean, they entertain quite a bit, and she does -- she sets a table

magnificently. And that endears her to me greatly. And it means a lot. I don't know,

maybe because it brings memories of my past. But I have come -- I don't know, I've

not made peace, because I still have nightmares and awful things, but I think I've -- I

have probably healed, cause I couldn't have survived if tha -- if I hadn't. And I -- I --

my attitude, I have a good attitude, because I've been very lucky, I have a good man.

And I just hope he'll be here forever for me, selfishly. And I have a good son, we have

two wonderful gray -- grandchildren. And only health permitting, you know. My

husband is on a three months schedule and every three months when he goes back, my The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 96

heart skips a beat. But life goes on and you have to smile and put on a happy face and

be happy, even if it's pretending.

Q: Let's take a break now and get something to eat. [tape break]. Here we are, we're

back from a break. We were going to talk now about your decision in the early 80's to

speak out. You mentioned before we took a break that there was a survivor's

conference or a gathering of some sort that you went to?

A: Yeah, yes.

Q: Why don't you tell me about that?

A: Well, yeah it was -- I think it was in 1983, and at that time my husband was out of

the military, he had a new career, our son was in school, and -- already in college, I

guess. And I was settled. In other words, we didn't have to move again like in a year or

so. And all of a su -- not all of a sudden, but I was thinking it was time to try and reach

out and get in touch with some -- to get a relationship with some other survivors,

because I did not have it, traveling around, you know, all over the world, you know,

being in the military.

Q: And did you feel the need for it, or --

A: Yes. I felt -- no, I felt the need for -- I -- I didn't feel the need for it, but I felt it was

time. It was time because I had no relationship with anyone -- with survivors, per se, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 97

and the only one was my girlfriend from Benzheim DP, with whom I corresponded, and

she came, as a matter of fact, to visit us once with her family, in Springfield, when we

still lived in Springfield. She did get married, like you were mentioning, in -- at the DP

camp, in Benzheim. She married a -- a middle -- an older -- mostly it used to be, you

know, older men. She married a very nice, very fine fellow, and he had a brother, and af

-- the brother had also a family and they all -- they all emigrated to America together.

And my friend's -- Rya is her name -- Rya's mother was still alive. And all of them

ended up in the United States, I think about a year before I did. How they were able to

do that, I don't know, but sh-she was the only one I kept in touch with. And at that time

it wasn't that I felt the need for it, I just felt it was time to get in touch in with other

survivors. Maybe it was a need, I don't know, but I felt it was time because I was in one

place and I wasn't going to go overseas again. And so when the time came, as it was,

there was going to be, I think the first gathering of survivors in Washington, D.C., and I

think it was 1983, and I attended it. It was not quite a week, but it was more than one

day, I don't recall exactly. And there I met many new people, and some whom I have

known from the DP camps, and it was nice to be together. It was a rather emotional and

solemn gathering. And most of the people that I knew have settled and have also started

their own lives and were successful in becoming Americanized. After that meeting, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 98

which was several days, it lasted several days, I remember one thing very distinctly, I

met -- forgot his first name, Rosenzaft is his name, he is the -- the was at that time, I

think, the first second generation activist. And he made a very emotional and very

memorable speech at that meeting, and he was telling us -- he was -- he was born in

Bergen-Belsen, where his parents ended up at the end of the war. And when they said, I

was born in Bergen-Belsen, people said, oh in a deep -- in a concentration camp? No, at

that time it was a DP camp. But he was born in that camp, and he became very active

and he still is. I forgot his first name, but you know, that I remember from that meeting.

And after that meeting, things were quiet, but it's sort of like -- it gave me a little seed

in my mind. I knew I had to do something, I didn't know what, and I didn't know what

I was ready to do. At that point we did belong to Agudas Achim and our friend Shelly

Elster the rabbi, was still with us. And I went to him and I said, I want to do something

to honor the memory of all the ones, the millions who perished in the Holocaust. And

he looked at me and right away he says, why don't you become a Bat Mitzvah? You

know what a Bat Mitzvah is, I mean, here. I said, oh, but I don't know. And Hebrew, I

don't know any prayers. I mean, you know, I-I was really an ignoramus when it came

to, you know, Hebrew reading, and chanting and all that. He says, I'll teach you. That

was, I think, in January. In April that day -- that year, 1985, was Yom HaShoah, the you The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 99

know, observance. And they started observing -- at that time they did already observe it

at the rotunda, you know, in the Capitol. But our synagogue usually had sort of a

religious school, you know, commemoration or something, not as elaborate and all, but

just to commemorate. And I said well, I don't know, but if I -- I don't think I could

learn by April, you know, all the chanting and all the Haftorah and everything. Cause I

didn't know any of the blessings in Hebrew, nothing. Didn't even know how to read.

And he says, I'll teach you, and he proceeded to teach me. And by April, to make it -- it

was very difficult and it took an awful lot of time, and my husband said he could recite

some of the prayers in his sleep because he heard me repeating them so many times.

And came f -- when -- when April came, I don't remember what day, I think it was also

the 25" or something, 21% or 25", I was ready for my -- for becoming a Bat Mitzvah.

And I learned all the chanting and all this in the three months. And that was very -- a

very nice accomplishment. I invited the entire congregation and actually some of my

relatives from Columbus, Ohio and New York, and some of them came. And they said

later, they said, yeah we came because we felt sorry for you and we didn't want you to

fall on your face without family around. Well, I didn't fall on my face. I astounded

them all because I did the whole thing. Usually kids, you know, learn from very

beginning and then it takes them a year or so. And I chanted it all and did a good job, if The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 100

I must say so myself. And after that we did attend synagogue pretty regularly, maybe

not every Saturday or -- but around that time when I was preparing for my Bat Mitzvah,

I did. I wrote a poem for that occasion and I made -- and my remarks were centered

around the theme that this is Yom HaShoah and I'd like -- this is my way of honoring

all the millions who perished during the Holocaust. And it was -- I felt very good about

it. Well, at this time my wonderful rabbi was preparing kids for their confirmation class

-- mean for their graduation, they have Hebrew school and then, you know, religious

school and then the people -- the students who want to go on after their bat mit -- Bar

and Bat Mitzvah when -- they call them to confirmation class. And he says, you must

go and speak to my kids in confirmation class. And I looked at him, I said, Shelly, I

cannot do that. I -- my English isn't good. I -- 1 -- I don't have my story, you know, in --

in my head. He says, I don't care. And that was a Sunday morning when he has a class.

He dragged me in and he says, I'll give you questions and you answer. And that was my

first presentation, against my will. I was petrified, and I mean, I -- I was not a public

speaker, not that I am now, but I -- I -- it was very difficult and it was really, I mean, he

pushed me and I was angry with him that he did. But it was a wonderful beginning. Not

a wonderful, but a beginning of something that I realized I had to do. And what I

realized at that time -- I mean then, the next Sunday he had another class, and he says, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 101

well you keep on, you've done great and you'll do even better. You must -- and you

know, the first time when I made this presentation, when I finished, I got sick to my

stomach, you know, went and threw up. But little by little, it was easier as time went

on, and then I realized that this is what I have to do. I have to bear witness, I have to

share my experiences, especially with young people. And Rabbi Elster gave me the

push in the right direction, and because of him I started doing this. And it grew from

that one, first confirmation class.

Q: In that first class, did -- do you have a memory of the -- how the young people

responded, and --

A: They were -- they were stunned, because at that time there weren't many people that

went into details and all. And I have one instance, the -- and this is something that

people remember because it is so, I think, unusual. I have an instance where there were

seven of us ended up in a haystack, in a huge haystack. And I think that -- and my

whole presentation, centered around that fact. And -- and I mean there were seven of us,

and onl -- and I'm the only one who survived. And after the presentation, the -- all these

kids, or most of them, came around to give me a hug and to ask questions. And it felt

good. It wasn't a catharsis, but it felt as if this is what I have to do now. My travels

were over with, I wasn't the military wife any more, and I had to do something else, The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 102

and -- and that was the thing I had to do. And this is the way it evolved and the strange

or interesting thing is, as the years go by, it seems that a -- of course now I'm with the

Speakers" Bureau of the Holocaust Museum, and a lot of my gigs -- my si -- my

presentations come through the museum, but I also have an awful lot of them that are

by word of mouth, that people heard me, or they -- somebody said something, and they

call me. And I go back there maybe once a year for five or six or seven years, and lately

now, from the museum, I've been sent all throughout the country to speak. And like

two years ago I was the guest speaker at the -- in Utah at Salt Lake City at the

governor's mansion, what do you call it, at the governor's invitation and I made the

keynote speech for Yom HaShoah. I've been to a number of places, and military places,

and I have now -- I have s -- a schedule all the way until, I think June, with many, you

know, si -- some -- I think I'm going to Iowa and I'm going to -- just came back from

South Dakota and Kentucky. And the reception -- as the years go by -- the reception's

always been very cordial, but it seems that the students now, especially in high schools

and middle schools, the students are much more knowledgeable because the teachers

offer so much more information. And that happens in turn because the museum and

other places, I'm sure, too, offer so many wonderful courses that inform the teachers

how to re -- how to teach the Holocaust.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 103

Q: I remember -- excuse me -- in your oral history interview you mentioned you had

been doing this for 10 years already in 1995.

A: Since 1985, yeah.

Q: You -- you mentioned an early experience you had at a school where a parent --

A: Y-yeah, oh, well --

Q: -- questioned --

A: -- yeah, I had two instances --

Q: -- questioned your story.

A: -- [had two instances, negative instances in all the -- in all my experience --

Q: Right.

A: -- you know, time that I've been speaking. One was the one you referred to and it

was at the Children's Capital Museum, before the Holocaust Museum was built. And at

that time, I don't know if you were here, and are you familiar with it, they had one

section, and I th -- I think they called it -- they didn't call it Daniel's story, but it was, in

essence, the composite of a young boy who lives through the horrors in Germany. And

it was -- bu -- I mean, Daniel's story is that composite boy. And what -- I don't know i -

- under whose auspice -- auspices this was, but they would bring students, young

students, and I think some of them were, you know, still from elementary school. They The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 104

would bring them to that children's museum, and they would let them go through the

rooms and familiarize themselves with the story of this boy, Daniel. And then when

they finished listening to the description and going through the rooms, they -- each one

would receive a tile, and they had to register their impressions with painting a

statement. And -- you know, they gave them paint and -- and the tiles. And this one

time there were two kids in that group, from two different classes, but the same school.

And of course they always had chaperones, and this father, this one man, came over to

me. I happened tha -- usually he -- when they had these presentations of Daniel's story,

they tried to get a survivor to finish off. After the kids went through the story of Daniel,

they would have a survivor speak about his or her own experiences, and that sort of

finished off the program. Well, it was my turn, because I participated in it, to speak that

day and I got up, wherever it was, and there were all these kids, you know, sitting and

listening to my story. And I made it very simple, because it -- these were young kids.

But after I was finished this guy comes over, and there were several parents, obviously,

you know, with the kids and they were always very nice and asked meaningful

questions. But this time this guy comes over and looks at me and first of all he says,

now what's your na -- hey, you, you know, what's your name? Usually I say, Charlene

Schiff. To him I said Mrs. Schiff, you know. Already I sensed something wrong. And The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 105

he says, you know, Mrs. Schiff, come, come, all this is a figment of your imagination.

Just like that. I wa -- I -- I was speechless for a minute, cause I di -- I -- I mean, I was

completely taken by, you know, surprise. And I said, how dare you say something like

this to me? And I said, do you think anybody would come up to bare one's soul just to

make up a story? He said well, there was no Holocaust, and things like that. That was

my one exper -- and am -- | -- and I asked -- I said, well if you don't believe that there

was a Holocaust, why did you bring your two children -- not one, but two, two children,

to this museum, to the Children's museum. He says, well, they -- they needed -- tha-that

was a -- an outing, or whatever he called it, and a field trip and they needed a chaperone

and I wasn't working that day, so I said I'll go. Or in other words, he didn't even realize

what they were going to see or hear. And that was one instance. And the other one was

in a school. And that was in a middle school in this area --

End of Tape Three, Side B

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 106 Beginning Tape Four, Side A

Q: This is Charlene Schiff, tape four, side one. Can you start again? It happened here, in

a local school.

A: Yes, in a -- a middle school, and usually what I try to do if it's possible, I encourage

the teachers to get several classed together so, you know, I can speak to more than one

class. And usually they honor my request if it's possible. In this school they did use the

auditorium and there were about 500 kids or so, yeah. The whole middle school. And

after my presentation I always ask to have a Q and A and the kids started raising their

hands with questions. And in the middle of this all, or you know, a few minutes after

the questioning started, this one kid gets up and most of them were wearing very nice

clothes, school clothes, you know, jeans and all. This kid had a hat, what do you call it,

a -- with the visor in the back. I don't know what you call it, but anyway, he looked like

he was sort of a troublemaker. Tall, good-looking kid, dark. And he says, Miss Schiff,

how many Jews were mur -- were killed? How many Jews did you say were killed? I

said, I didn't say. I don't ever like to take -- to say, you know, numbers, cause I -- you

know, [ll say 6,000, they say no, it was only 6001, or whatever. I don't give number --

I said I -- I didn't say. But how many would you say were killed? And I said, well, there

were six million Jews and five million others. And I said, even one being killed was too The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 107

many. And he sort of took off his head and started scratching his -- took off his hat and

started scratching his head and hair. He said, well six million, maybe it was a few too

many. Just like that. And I -- he was looking to see that people will start laughing. It

was dead silence. I said, as far as I'm concerned, even one was too many. And are you

satisfied now that you made your joke? Just like that. And he says, it's not a joke. And I

said yes, it is a joke. And he was standing there. And after I said, you know, tha -- you -

- you finished with your joke or whatever, and even one is too many, the whole

audience got up and started applauding and I got a standing ovation. And at that time he

walked out. And then I found out he is -- he was from a Muslim f -- you know,

household and his father was a Muslim and he came -- he would come to school always

with very contradictory statements and all. I wish the teachers had warned me. I don't

know what I would had done differently, but nobody did until after it happened. And

those two instances were my only instances where it was unpleasant and traumatic, very

traumatic. But other than that, I never had that kind of an experience. And as time

progresses, which is again very, t-to me, of great interest, the interest in the Holocaust,

and you know, history per se, you know, about World War II, the interest by young

people increases every year. I don't know what to blame it on, or what to give er --

credit, and especially now, after September 11", it -- it is really amazing, and a -- I just The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 108

came back from Kentucky, that's my most recent gig, and I was amazed. I spoke there

in a high school and a middle school, two different schools, and the reception couldn't

have been more cordial. It was -- it happened it was my birthday, and I n -- I ne -- I

don't know how they found out, but I guess from the internet, or whatever, and --

Q: Watch your scarf there.

A: -- both schools had great big signs outside when I came in, happy birthday, Mrs.

Schiff, happy birthday, Charlene. They baked me a cake, they sang "Happy Birthday",

all 500 of them. And i-it was in -- and the questions, if I had the time, if I didn't have to

catch a plane, I could have stayed there another day, they were so eager to learn more,

and I had to promise them they would send me the questions and I'll answer writing.

It'll never happen, you know. But it -- it -- and this is occurring everywhere. So I -- I --

it's not a catharsis for me, but I feel I'm doing the right thing at the right time. This is

my time to bear witness as long as I can stand up on my own two feet, and as long as I

can still speak somewhat coherently and remember what transpired. I think it's very

important for -- especially for the young people to know, and once we're gone, it will

be -- it's wonderful that we have the museum, and it's wonderful that that legacy is

there, and the museum stands there as a warning that people shouldn't tamper with

human rights. But it's still not the same as when I -- a live person stands there and tells The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 109

you what happened to him or her. And that's why I was -- I'm doing it, and it turns out

it's almost -- not quite, but almost a full time job, yeah.

Q: Why do you say it's not a catharsis for you?

A: Because every day when I tell my story, I remember -- and now it's getting hazy, but

I remember new details, and it's as if reliving everything that happened all over again.

It's not a catharsis, no way. Many times I -- I -- | went with David Klevin the other day

to a school and I -- usually they allot me -- allow me to speak an hour, maybe two at the

most. And there, I think I was there 9:15, didn't get out until one o'clock, because the

kids had so many questions and they had the time from other subjects, they allowed

them to stay, you know, and que -- question me. And when I got home, you know what

I did? Went to bed. I was emotionally drained and that happens a lot. So it is not a

catharsis, but it feels that -- it feels that I have to do it. And that's why I'm doing it. I

am a -- in our group, like the -- the group of child survivors, I preach whenever I go.

Now, I can't even attend there the monthly -- we have monthly meetings, cause I'm so

busy. And a lot o-of my presentations are on Sundays, too. I've had two or three

churches. Yesterday was an exception, wasn't a Sunday, but usually it's Sunday

evening when I speak to the adults, you know, in -- in the churches. And like yesterday,

you know, I'm so glad it didn't snow or rain, but their social hall, there was -- people The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 110

were standing, there was no room in the seats to -- to accommodate everyone. And that

makes me feel good, but a catharsis it is not. Absolutely not, no.

Q: Tell me about your decision to become involved with the museum.

A: Well, since I've been speaking, you know, since 1985 and all, when the museum

was built, and I remember that opening day, it was an April day, it was raining, it was

cold and windy. It was just like everyone else felt, you know, in their hearts. That's the

way the weather was reflecting it. And our son came down to be with us and to witness

it, too. And then I said, well gosh, I mean, the museum is here, let me see what I can do

there. I don't think it was right when they opened, but a little later. And then came --

John Minnick joined, and he is the director of the Speakers" Bureau. And I filled out

some papers, and somebody said well, why don't you go and become a -- work in the

archives or start translating, you know, that's a very interesting thing, you know, I

could translate in several languages. And then, I don't know if I'm proficient any more,

but at that time I thought, well, I'd rather be with people. I want to do something where

I'm not going to be by myself. And that seemed -- you know, I was doing that anyway,

I said well, maybe I should go an-and join the Speakers" Bureau. And the way it's -- it

fell into place, I don't know if it was organized, I shouldn't -- it's not for me to criticize,

but right now there are about 20 of us. There are 64 survivors who work, who volunteer The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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at the museum, 20 or so are with the Speakers" Bureau, and maybe I'd better not say it.

You know what I'm -- was going to say.

Q: [indecipherable]

A: But just -- I think a few of us work more than others, for good reasons. And the thing

is when I go to my meetings, the children's -- the -- the child survivors meetings, I

always have arguments with the rest of my friends and they all have become friends --

maybe not all, but some have become very close friends, and I say, why don't you go

out to speak? We need a good mouthpiece. And very few are interested in doing that.

Q: Well, this is what I wanted to ask you about next.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: What -- how do you understand that, that --

A: I don't. Well, I do and I don't. I mean, I started out, and I'm not a speaker, but I feel

now that I -- I write out my remarks, mostly, because of being so sick when -- early on

in my life. Sometimes I start speaking and I'm at a loss for a word. I cannot remember

it. But when I have it written out, I'm much more comfortable. And I have several -- I

have about -- every time I change a little bit and I have about 20 different formats. One

is 20 pages, one is 40 pages, you know, things like that. Large letters, you know, so I

can read. But some people don't know how to speak. I didn't either, but I felt a The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 112

compulsion, that I -- a duty that I had to do it and so I learned. Some of these people

have selfish motives. They don't want to be remind -- reminded of their experiences,

and they don't want to have anything to do with it. I remember one meeting we

attended -- every year we have international meetings, that people from all over Israel

and from Europe come to these meetings. And every month we have our own meetings.

Once we had an international meeting, and I met two brothers from Connecticut, two

brothers who survived the Holocaust. One brother talks about it all the time -- not all

the time, but I mean, he is facing reality and his past. The other guy is -- he -- it's the

first time he introduced him cause that was the first time he ever came to a meeting, that

was an international meeting. And he has never spoken about his experiences. He's

married to an American woman who doesn't know his past. I mean, I don't see how

you can live with a person and not tell her your story. But anyway, he doesn't want to

face it. You know, he doesn't want to go through again what he what -- what he lived

through once. So, I don't know, I don't know how to explain it.

Q: Hm. How -- how is your -- how -- the [indecipherable] this group of child survivors,

how is that group, other than the age difference, how is their view of the Holocaust and

their -- as a group, their work in -- in talking about the Holocaust, how do you think it's

different from other survivor groups?

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A: Well, it's very different, to this day. And that's another ongoing, friendly discussion

that we have. Our group -- first of all, most of the members in our group are qui --

Q: What is the name of your group, by the way?

A: Child Survivors of the Holocaust.

Q: And is it a local kind of [indecipherable]

A: Well, it's not just the lo -- it's -- it-it's a -- we have, I think, about 30 or 45 different

groups in the United States, in England, in -- all over the place. And it's stupid, then no

-- again I'm using the word I shouldn't, but it is, in a way childish to refer to ourselves,

child survivor -- survivors. Most of the people who survived were children. Very few

adults did survive. But now none of us is a child, but we still refer to ourselves as child

survivors. The difference in these groups -- I don't know if you're familiar with Nessie

Godin in th-the museum? Who doesn't know Nessie? Her group -- I say her, she is the

co-chairman of the group, is survivors and friends. Their policy was from the beginning

to open their -- I mean, they accept anyone who is interested in the cause of the

Holocaust, or in -- in the theme, Holocaust, is welcome. Our group, to this day, is -- I

would call it almost like a hypochondriac cause, or case. They feel, most of them do,

God forbid anybody should join who is not a Holocaust survivor. They"!I steal our

secrets? What will they do to us? But they feel that they don't want anyone but just the The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 114

child survivors. When I first joined, it was a very strange situation. I came in with Ed,

and they -- you know, I said, my name is Charlene Schiff, I'm a child survi -- who is

that? I said, my husband. Is he a survivor? No. Out you go. They wouldn't allow him to

stay, so I got up and I was going to go. And I mean, eventually, after some debate and

all, they magnanimously allowed my husband to come to the meetings. Now, this

situation has sort of evolved. Now spouses, if they are not survivors, are allowed to

come. But it's sort of a real closed group. They don't want to have any kind of

relationship with anybody else. And basically, until very recently, this group was a

support group, let's face it.

Q: Mm. Mm-hm.

A: And there's some people who, 50 plus years later, still need that support.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: There are many people who burst out in tears when they talk about their family that

maybe one member perished and the rest of them are alive. Their -- I mean, I -- I ha --

don't have any tears any more since -- since I came to this country. I -- I don't know

how to cry any more. I don't. But when I speak, I divorce myself from my old self,

cause otherwise I couldn't do it. But these people are not strong enough, a lot of them,

and they still need a lot of emotional support and they don't want anyone else to know The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 115

about their struggle and about their emotional weaknesses. So that's the way I would

explain it.

Q: What do you mean though, Charlene, when you say you don't have any tears any

more, you don't cry any more? You're very emotional --

A: Yes.

Q: -- when you talk about -- at least on this tape --

A: Lam, but I -- 1 -- I don't -- I can't cry easily and the thing wh-when -- when -- I cried

when my friend's husband died. We said good-bye to him a mon -- a month -- an hour

before he died, we were in his room. For that I cried. But when I think that my sister,

who went to her death with her beloved -- I can't cry.

Q: You mean you won't let yourself. Because you said when you came -- when you

first came to Columbus, you cried every night --

A: Yes. Yeah.

Q: -- by yourself and -- but I -- I'm just trying to --

A: I was even considering --

Q: -- what you say --

A: -- I was considering going back to the DP camps.

Q: Really? You were so lonely?

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A: | -- it wasn't loneliness, it was just confusion and chaos and not knowing what's

ahead. I shouldn't have said that. But --

Q: Does -- does this ability that you have or have learned, to speak in public, do you

think it's part of what gives you strength?

A: I think so. I hate it when people tell me, oh you're tough, you can do anything. I am

not tough. It's just that life has dealt me a very difficult hand, and I learned how to cope

with it, and how to deal with it, partly because of my wonderful help from my husband

and my son. But I am not tough, and it's -- and I'm not hard, but that's the way people

judge me. I don't like it at all, but I've heard it a lot, and I'm sure they mean it as a

compliment.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: But it's not.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And I -- I don't know how to explain it, but I -- even, you know, after I got married

and things where -- were, you know, great, an-and there was -- you know, there were

[indecipherable] and there was -- there were times when it was very difficult and all,

but this is something that happens in everyone's life. And in a way I do understand my

son's philosophy and his approach to things, and he's -- he accepts me as I am, and he The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 117

doesn't blame it on the Holocaust. That's -- maybe I would have been this way without

the Holocaust, who knows? Pushy and very aggressive and very demanding where --

where my son, you know, was involved. And now I realize that it was very probably

wrong, but in spite of it all, it turned out okay. So --

Q: You mentioned September 11".

A: Yeah.

Q: And talking in -- to groups of people after that. There have been so many times in

the past 20 years when there have been world events that I would think could be very

upsetting to you. Things like the war in the former Yugoslavia and the massacres in

Rwanda, and the fighting in Chechnya, you know.

A: Yes. Well --

Q: Every time a minority of people is su-subjugated --

A: Was fighting for independence and for freedom. Everywhere there is a fight for

freedom, it churns within me. But the reason I brought up September 11", September

11" is unique in my mind for one reason only. It was the first time that here in America

we were touched on our soil. And I think September 11" is very unfortunately

important because we Americans were touched where it hurts us most. It seems that

until September 11", all the other horrible, horrible situations in Rwanda, where the The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 118

United Nations promised help, and I went to hear General -- I'm terrible with names --

Diddio. The general who was in charge of the Rwanda, you know, contingent, and he

was promised by the United Nations to get all the help he needed, and when he got to

Rwanda, all he saw is death and destruction and massacre and not any help from the

United Nations. And consequently he resigned his post and became a drunk for awhile.

I mean, now he wrote a book and he speaks about this situation. That churns within me

and it makes me sick, physically ill. All this, Bosnia and all that. But to the American

psyche, I think one of the most important thing, do anything, but don't come to my

beloved America, to my soil, on my soil. Don't do anything on my soil. And sin the --

since the Civil War and all, all the wars were fought outside of the United States. And

September 11", sadly, touched us right here. And that's why it's so important to the

Americans. That's the way I figure. I also have seen something here that I was missing

all these years. We went to Israel, can't remember when, in the 80's, and the first thing

that struck me was the fantastic pride and patriotism that the people have. Maybe

they're not as observant, you know, religiously, but when they wore that uni -- wore th-

the uniform of the military, they did it with pride, wearing it and holding their heads up

high. Here in America, when there is a war, God forbid, the military is regarded as one

of us. When there is no war, the military are second rate citizens. The military is sort of The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 119

an underclass, and it's been that way ever since I came here and I -- and I was a military

and still am a miri -- military wife and I'm very proud of it. Since September 11", you

see stickers, I'm proud to be an American. You see the flag on cars and I think it did

awake our patriotism and our pride in being an American. And it didn't do that when

Chechnya started, when Bosnia started, when Uganda started, when -- when all these

other terrible, you know, wars started su -- on a different soil, not on American soil.

And this is why I think it's different. I might be -- I'm probably very wrong, but this is

my explanation. And that's why, until now, am -- most places, I always when I start my

remarks, since September 11", I start with the horrible tragedy of September 11", and I

compare it. And I -- I do say it has no comparison to the Holocaust, but it is also driven

by evil, by -- by people who hate, blind hate, and by people who have no regards for

human life. And this is one thing that we must fight for. And I -- I have my four evil

eyes, and I say even now, 55 years after the Holocaust, we must all fight the four evil

eyes. The evil of indifference, the evil of injustice, the evil of intolerance and the evil of

ignorance, four eyes. And the kids always write it down.

Q: I'm going to jump around a little bit.

A: Okay.

Q: You mentioned that you traveled to Israel.

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A: Mm-hm.

Q: What was that like for you to be there?

A: That was very, very emotional. The reason it was emotional, first of all, we've made

friends while here, with -- usually we try to find out who is here from Israel, and we

became very good friends with the military attaches and the ambassadors and all, and

they would stay here three years and then go back to Israel. So we've had several and

the last one, poor guy, he now has Parkinson's. But Hadassah and Jakov Granat and he

was the military attache here in Washington. Can't remember the years, it's terrible.

But anyway, when we were visiting Israel, we got in touch with the Granats and we had

a wonderful time visiting them. And then I did get in touch with some people with

whom I was -- I wasn't in the same DP camp, but they were in a neighboring, there

were so many of them. And there was one guy there who was my father's student. And

he ended up he didn't make it to Palestine, he ended up being caught and he ended up in

the Polish army when the war started, and so he had a story of his own. But when he

came out after the war, he s -- found out that I was alive and he came to say hello. And

through me he met this other girl, who was in a different DP camp and they fell in love

and they got married. So we visited with them.

Q: Let me turn the tape over now. Hold that thought.

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Q: This is Charlene Schiff, tape four, side two.

A: My God.

Q: You visited with them.

A: Yes, I visited with them, and he gathered together other students and people who

knew my parents. Mostly my father's former students, and they had -- I think I

mentioned it before, they had a -- an evening where they paid tribute to my father -- my

parents, but mostly my father, and reminisced and -- and told me s-stories that I didn't

know about my dad. And it was very, very emotional, but also very nice, because they

actually knew my parents and it's something very, very dear to me. So, and then we

went sightseeing and we -- we didn't stay there long enough. We never did go to the

southern part, to Eilat, but we had a private guide because I couldn't walk very well, so

we ha-had a car and a private guide. And this guide turned out to be a retired military in

the mili -- in -- in the -- in the Israeli military. And so he and my husband hit it off very

well. It was a very nice visit in Israel. I came home much stronger after that visit, it was

good for me. It was beautiful to see Israel, but you know, it's amazing, not specifically

in Israel, in Israel and in the United States, when I get off a plane, to this day, I feel like The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 122

getting on my knees and kissing the ground. Because the United States, no matter how

we criticize it and all, it's still the best -- best country in the world to live in, with our

democracy and our freedoms and we should cherish them. And so many times, most of

us take it all for granted. And Israel is to me a 20" century miracle. When you drive

through you see the desert and then all of a sudden there -- there are trees and there is

water, and there are beautiful flowers, and there are fish, you know, and it -- it -- it's

just a miracle, a mirage. And that again, I mean, is worth of getting down on your knees

and kissing the ground. And that's the way I feel about the two countries.

Q: Mm-hm. This current round of violence in the middle -- in -- in -- in that part of the

world must be hard. It must be hard.

A: It's very difficult. And you know, all this violence, all over now, Chechnya is -- is an

unresolved situation, and I mean Bosnia -- I don't think -- it's sort of, I think, quiet right

now and all. But there is so much hate, for hundreds of years, and I don't think it's

really resolved a hundred percent, never will be. And all the other places of unrest, and

especially, especially Israel, it is something that is very, very sad. And I know I feel

very frustrated. I'm not a politician, I'm not a political science major. I don't know how

you resolve something like that, and especially now with Iraq, you know, and -- and

hanging sort of like will it, or will it not? What's going to happen if it does and if it The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 123

doesn't? It's very difficult and I think -- I know we have some friends who never had

any children, and one couple regrets it -- by choice. And the other couple keeps

repeating, even to this day, we're glad we don't have children. We don't want to have

to leave our children in such a terrible world, where peace is at que -- in question every

day. And I don't know, I -- I'm very glad that I have a child, and I have, hopefully,

continuity. But it is a question to ponder. What are we leaving our children with, when

we cannot guarantee them freedom, and freedom is what everyone until now has paid

such a dear price for.

Q: You said in the -- in your oral history interview, you said a number of times though,

that you feel hope. You do feel hope for humankind.

A: Well I -- yes, I do, I still do, in spite of it all, because if I didn't, I couldn't go -- I

never speak to the school kids, especially school kids, and adults too, without injecting

some hope in my remarks. I know nobody can live without hope. You might as well

give up. And I know in my -- in -- in my darkest hours, no matter how I came to

achieve it, if I tried, you know, to -- to just talk myself into it, but I always felt that I

must have hope, and I have hope now. And I think, I mean, it's no comparison, but

when my husband got so ill, I prayed to God and at that time I said, God, I -- I don't

care what you do, please give me hope that he's going to go on and he's going to live.

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And I remember a very beautiful thing happened. There was a Catholic priest -- they

have a priest and a rabbi and all at the Walter Reed Hospital, and this priest just start --

just happened to pass when I was sitting there, and I mean, I wasn't crying, but I was

sitting in the corner waiting for some results. And I was -- I looked very sad, and I think

I was waiting for our son to come and I -- he says -- what -- what's bothering you, my

child? And I told him. And he says, Pll pray for him he'll be all right. Yeah. And that

Christmas we went over and we gave him a nice donation. He was there for -- he's gone

now, he's gone someplace else. But a Catholic priest, you know, had so much

compassion. That gives me hope, because there is something good in every human

being. And I also have another philosophy. You know how women get together and

they start gossiping and all, and I don't like to gossip. But I always say, if you don't

have anything nice to say, don't say anything. Say only when you have something nice

to say, otherwise don't. And if you feel, you know, anger and all, try to concentrate and

try to find something nice about that person. And sometimes it's very difficult to do

that, yeah.

Q: I remember in your first interview you ta -- describing how hopeful your mother led

you to believe --

A: Oh.

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Q: -- that she was, whether or not she really was.

A: I never saw her cry.

Q: She was very strong.

A: But -- but sh -- you know, she turned gray overnight when they took my father away.

Q: Yeah.

A: Yeah. I should go over that and refresh some of what I said and some what I didn't

say.

Q: Oh.

A: But she -- she was -- and she wasn't the only one. It seems that most of the

nourishment -- nourish -- nurturing befell to the women, because most of the men were

gone right away. And this was his -- Hitler's plan, you know, take away the leaders and

everything will fall apart. And that's what happened. But the women came through

gloriously. And I know my mother kept spinning tales that -- I mean, now they are

laughable I am sure, but everything that she -- that came out of her lips always ended

with hope. When they took my father away, both of us cried, my sister and I. And she

gathered us -- she -- she hugged us, she didn't say anything. And later she was making

plans, what kind of a party we'll have when Papa would come home. And, I mean, she

always invited people, even in the ghetto, when she saw a little urchin, a little boy, or -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 126

or a little girl by themselves, and there were lots of them, she says come and we'll eat

something. And she was a genius at making soup, and she'd add more water and

whatever, I don't know, but everything she made, because we were hungry too, tasted

so good. And it was always shared with so much good feelings. It wasn't just oh gosh,

we don't have anything for tomorrow, you know, but well, we'll have something

tomorrow too. Enjoy it, and eat, you know. And it -- it was -- she gave us so much --

she gave me so much strength. And I wish I could be one-tenth of the person that she

was. And sh-she was strong, and she was very wise, and she wasn't the only one. They

-- she and a group of women organized a school for a -- for the kids who didn't work,

too young to work. And there again, we could have lied about our age had we known

ahead of time, but we didn't. But this too was such a wonderful gesture, to -- to be with

the kids. And -- and they were tired and beat, you know, from the work that they did all

day, and yet they would come with smiles on their faces and sing happy songs for us,

just to keep us occupied and to give us something to do. Yes, my mother was a very

special woman, but she wasn't the only one. I think ordinary people -- and my mother

was not ordinary, she was extraordinary, but I think even ordinary people were made

extraordinary by their circumstances in the ghetto. And I mean, what befell us, you

know, when the Germans came in, that people who were ordinary became heroes. And The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 127

that happened everywhere. That's another thing that I, nowadays feel very strongly

about it, and I keep learning much more, is the fact that there was so much resistance,

and there was so much -- there were uprisings, you know, all over the place. Sobibor,

Auschwitz, and of course, Warsaw. But I was reading someplace just recently that there

was resistance in 105 different ghettos. And I think probably it will come up that it -- it

was more than 105 ghettos. Cause my mother's school, that's resistance. The -- our kids

getting together, about 20 of us, building a tunnel. Tunnel, it wasn't really a tunnel, but

it was a tunnel. That's resistance. And these kind of forms of resistance took place

almost in every little ghetto. And that is something that when we consider that there

was practically no help from the outside, and even in -- in the Warsaw ghetto, how

difficult it was to obtain weapons, and you know, how very -- even for money -- I

mean, people would, on the outside, would promise you weapons, and then you would

come and you'd find empty shells or you know, corroded things that didn't work. And

when you think, that in spite of all of this, we were able to raise our voice, we should

walk now with our heads high, too. And I often say I'm very proud to be who I am. I

wouldn't change it for the world. And I am proud of being a Jew. And I am proud of

having to sur-survive -- of having survived. But until recently, I had enormous guilt.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 128

Now my guilt I'm trying to rationalize and chase it away. Why should I feel guilty? But

Ihave felt great guilt.

Q: Ten years ago you said you felt imprisoned --

A: Guilt?

Q: -- imprisoned by your memories, in your guilt --

A: Oh, I'm still imprisoned by my memories, but I don't feel guilt any more. Maybe not

-- I still feel a little bit, but not that much.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: I felt enormous guilt for surviving. Why me? A nobody like me when people who

had so much to contribute to human kind were just blown away like flies. Why me? So

that's why I feel very strongly that I must do what I can in my own small way. I'm not

Elie Wiesel, whom I met a number of times and just recently had an occasion to be at

this table at a luncheon, which was very interesting. But in my own way, I have to

contribute what I can, and this is my contribution.

Q: Mm-hm. Let's -- I need -- I need to take a break for a sec -- [tape break] -- 10 years

ago, you were still looking for answers about what happened to your father and mother.

And has there been, in the 10 years --

A: Any resolution.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 129

Q: -- any more information?

A: Well, you know, I went back to my hometown and that was a disaster. As I said, my

sister apparently was shot then and there, I don't know what day, or -- but, during the

liquidation. My father, at first they told me he was -- he pa -- I guess the people in my

town -- excuse me, that he went to Dachau, the concentration -- Dachau concentration

camp. And when I was in the DP camp, and later when my husband and I were

stationed in Munich -- excuse me -- we went to Dachau to search all the papers. Didn't

find anything. And then, when I went in 1988 to my hometown, I was told that the 300

leaders were led from our hometown to the outside of the town to a -- one of the forests,

there are lots of forests around. I don't know if they kept them one day or two or three.

They made them dig a mass grave and then they shot them there and then. I don't know

which is the true story. I did not see the grave. I hope before I die I will go back to my

hometown and have answers to some of these burning questions. Maybe not all of

them, but some. If there is a grave, I feel that's probably where he lost his life. I -- and

if it's so, I -- my aim is to put some plaques, memorial plaques where the ghetto was,

which is now a leveled space, and I hope someone will show me the mass grave, and I

could put some memorial plaque there.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 130

Q: Do you have reason to believe that people there know where it is?

A: Oh yes, they do. They told us they do, but we had no time to go there --

Q: Oh.

A: -- because I was given a limit of two hours to be there. And the town was completely

leveled. My house is still there, which again doesn't look like my house, but it was a

very traumatic return to my hometown. Nothing was the way I remembered it and most

of the houses were gone and I don't know, but my -- our theory is that there must have

been some kind of a experiment which turned sour. I'm not saying it was Chernobyl or

anything, but -- I don't know what it was, but something occurred in that little town of

mine that leveled everything and there is nothing there now. When we went in "88, my

husband tried to comfort me cause I was so upset with all this. He says, well, you don't

see anything, let's go and show me where the river is where you were hiding with your

mama. And I try -- I said, I -- I s -- I was so disoriented, and I asked the people there,

where's the river? No more river, they diverted the river, too. So, I mean, everything

was so traumatic and so puzzling, to this day I don't know if any of the facts or if

anything they said is the truth, but I have to believe someone. But there is, they told me,

a mass grave outside of the city.

Q: Mm.

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USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0068 131

A: Yeah. I should have gone through my statements from oral history, so I wouldn't

have probably repeated myself.

Q: That's okay, that -- that's okay. I -- I don't have any other questions. Is there

anything else that you feel like I missed, or you'd want to go back over, and --

A: No, I think you were very much in detail and I think I've talked too much --

Q: No, you haven't.

A: -- and I don't know if I made sense, but --

Q: Yeah, it's very clear --

A: -- [just gave you my feelings.

Q: -- it's very clear.

A: And I tried to be clear, but sometimes it gets sort of convoluted.

Q: No, it's great. Thank you very much.

A: Thank you Neenah, so much, for your very nice feeling that you give me, of

confidence, and for being so perceptive. Several times you told me things that I didn't

know how to express and you expressed them for me.

Q: Oh good.

A: And I'm very grateful for that.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Q: Good. This is the end now of the interview with Charlene Schiff on January 29", 2003. This is tape four, side B, the end of it.

End of Tape Four, Side B Conclusion of Interview The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.