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something about the problem of ( _) but not in any great details. And were really quite taken aback with information that they gave to us.

And then he, and at that time it was suggested that it might be a good idea for us not to go to the Olympics. Because of all this, these problems that sort of register our objections and sort of boycotting the Olympics.

And we were quite taken aback about that thought. They tried to explain to us that we would never regret if we did take that action, to boycott the Olympics and they suggested that we talk it over and let them know what, what our thoughts were, if we wanted any further discussion. And we, Norman Carnis and I went back and talked it over and thought we had discussed it with our parents as we had great respect for their judgment.

And after talking it over with our parents, they also called Rabbi Levy to see what his thoughts were again. To get an explanation from him.

And my father told me that he was satisfied and had confidence in Rabbi Levy's judgment and that we wouldn't regret it if we did boycott the Olympics. Of course the problem was, not the problem but the question was we, you know how imminent our selection onto the Olympic team would be.

And I held the world's record in the high hurdles and also the Harvard- Yale record in the broad jump. And at that time and the Harvard-Yale broad jump event which I held the record in was over 24 feet, 11 inches. And I had been running in three events at that track meet and the coach said not to take too many jumps because I had to save myself for the other events.

And on the first try on the broad jump I had fouled the take off, stepped over the mark. And he said to be very careful on the next jump because he didn't want me to take all my full jumps. So on the next jump I was very careful and took off about a foot behind the take off board and I did 24 feet 11, so I was close to 26 feet in the actual jump.

And they thought that I could, had a good chance of qualifying for the Olympics in the long jump. Where I had the potential to go close to 26 feet. And in the high hurdles, which was the other event that I was, had qualified for, I had been running around 14, 9, 15 seconds in the high hurdles and the qualifying times were in the 14 second, probably 14, 2, or 3, but I was improving in the high hurdles and I practiced timing event, timing in the high hurdle practice rounds and I was

getting closer to the 14, 5, 14, 4. And they felt that there was a good chance that I could make the team in maybe two events. But at any rate, after the discussion with Rabbi Levy and my parents and this whole situation about boycotting, both Carnis and I decided that we would boycott the Olympics and we didn't go into the finial tryouts.

And although I was disappointed I felt that that was the thing to do and that's what basically happened, as far as boycotting the Olympics [were] concerned because that time I was a senior at Harvard and I was interested in getting into business and whether to go into business right away, after graduation which was in 1936 or to go to graduate school. And now I decided to go to Harvard Business School and then go into the real estate business.

So I was interested in looking, I was always interested in athletics.

And I knew that I was a pretty good athlete and as I say I was captain of all the track teams since I was in grammar school. But my focus after getting out of college was not, had nothing to do really with athletics, although I was interested in all athletics and tennis and skiing and all the other activities. But I decided to go to the Harvard Business School and then to go into business in the real estate business.

And that's what happened and I was interested in, you know, finding a nice gal and getting married too. So that's the basic course that I followed. And after I got out of the business school I participated in tennis. And I was ranked number six in New England in the super senior category so I was always interested in athletics but that's really the basic story about what happened in the situation.

Q: ...elaborate on some of those points...came from a Jewish background, identified as a Jewish boy.

A: That's right, absolutely. My mother and father as say were Reform at that time. When I moved to Brookline in 1925. But their parents were very religious, my mother's parents particularly because my father's parents weren't around at that time. But my mother's parents, the name was Waburn and they were very religious and we used to go over to their home, to their apartment and celebrate all the Jewish holidays. And as I say they were very religious and my parents were religious but they were Reform.

Q: What about your friends, were your friends mixed or did you really grow up ina more Jewish environment?

A: Id say that I grew up basically in a mixed environment. After we lived in Brookline, in 1929 we moved to Newton. And I went to Newton High School. In those days it wasn't too integrated. And my friends, I'd say were 50/50 Jewish and non-Jewish and so our upper was [difficult to figure out what was missing here], was mixed but our social activities were mostly Jewish activities.

Q: Did you experience any anti-Semitism from your classmates or people when you were growing up?

A: Not particularly. High school, never noticed any. I knew it was around and there were situations but in college, at Harvard we lived Carnis and I lived in Lowell House. And they had common room eating and we mixed with all of the, everyone there and we, we never noticed any particular anti-Semitism. But we knew it existed. But we were never particularly subjected to it.

Q: Do you think that sports in your early athletic career provided a good opportunity for you to fit into the main stream and move beyond your Jewish environment.

A: I never particularly thought of it in that way. But it was the focus that you know put us in contact with all the...

Q: ...start the sentence by saying sports or athletics was the focus so that you say the subject in the sentence...

A: Oh yeah, I see. You know sports and athletics were a focus. Because as I say I was captain of the team so I was, did pretty well in all the events. While it was a focus and I enjoyed it, it wasn't 100 percent focus. But I trained carefully and did all the training that the coaches had suggested but I would say it was a focus but not 100 percent so.

Q: And you mentioned that you had worked toward going to the Olympics.

Was that a real serious possibility in your mind?

A: Yes, it was. Going to the Olympics was a very serious focus at that time and it was a focus on training and doing extra training and exercises too and I was watching the performances all over the world, in my particular events, particularly. And yes it was something that I was always thinking about when I was training and I had hoped to make the Olympic team.

Q: So it must have been somewhat disappointing when, even though it was your choice, you weren't going to participate.

A: It was my boycotting the Olympics through the meetings I had with Rabbi Levy, yes I was, I was disappointed. And felt that that focus that Thad had all these years was going to materialize but somehow or another I felt that it was the right thing to do and I never had any regrets about it one way or another.

Q: What gave you that moral grounding?

A: Well I don't think the moral grounding in relation to that was not really a basic factor. I don't think it had anything to do with moral grounding. It was just a realization that was something that should be done and I had great respect for Rabbi Levy because prior to our meeting with him, although I had heard about the problems in Germany and what was going on, | didn't really have a detailed understanding of the problems there and that meeting was really a shocker to both Carnis and myself. And it struck home to me that that was something I wanted to do after they explained the situation.

Q: You talk about this meeting. Can you go into more detail about what they said to you and what helped you make this choice?

A: Well the meeting with Rabbi Levy was at the Temple Israel executive boardroom. And we weren't sure what he was going to tell us about what was happening in Germany. But the several board members of the men's committee and the rabbi went into pretty good detail. But I don't remember all the items that they discussed particularly, but they told us about the terrible things that were going on in Germany and the Nazi regime. And it was a shocker to me and Norman Carnis and it just struck home that it was something that we should do or consider doing. But I don't remember particularly all the gory details that they went into.

Q: Do you remember any of the details?

A: Not really. Something about book burning and taking away the rights of the Jews and putting them in ghettos and I suppose it was -- I don't remember it was that time or afterwards, but they mentioned about the killing of Jews. And then all those details were pretty repulsive to us.

Q: Were there at that point to your knowledge, press statements or public statements about boycotting and about Germany?

A: Yes there were. There was publicity about the boycotting and discussions between the Olympic Committee and there were some other groups that were, had mentioned in the press about they should boycott the Olympics. And there were other groups that said they shouldn't boycott the Olympics so I was just aware that there was a discussion going on about boycotting but I wasn't aware of all the details involved.

Q: Were you aware of other athletes who were considering boycotting?

A: Not particularly. I did, I wasn't aware of any other athletes that I knew of and I wouldn't be in contact with them other than through publicity in the papers. But I remember something about Stoller and those track athletes that were questioning about going to the Olympics but I don't particularly remember the time frame in connection with that but I do remember the discussion about it.

Q: Did the press and some of these organizations who were talking about boycotting influence you or....

A: No, I didn't think the press or the publicity influenced me one way or the other because I wasn't aware at that time in any great detail of the problems going on in Germany and the Nazis with the Jews. I knew there were problems and it was serious but I wasn't aware of all the details.

Q: When you decided to boycott was this primarily to take a stand or was there any concern about your safety in going over there?

A: No, I wasn't worried at all about safety but the reason I boycotted it was entirely a result of the meeting with Rabbi Levy. That was the essential dominant factor involved.

Q: Did you consider this a substantial sacrifice on your part? I mean you had been working for this for a long time.

A: Well boycotting the Olympics was a sacrifice because I had always wanted to be in the Olympics but I didn't consider it as, once we made up our mind and I was aware of what was going on there, I didn't look at it particularly as a sacrifice, although it was. But I didn't consider it a terrible blow.

Q: Once you made the decision to boycott, were you asked to or did you make any public statements in an effort to influence other people?

A: No. We never made any public statements or indicated what steps we had taken.

Q: When you were in a pretty high profile position. You were captain of varsity track in Harvard, I'm surprised that someone didn't come to you and say will you speak out for this boycott.

A: Well after we boycotted the Olympics, no one came to speak to us or ask us if we'd make any statement about it and I don't think anyone knew particularly that we did boycott it. Cause there was no publicity about it one way or the other. The only publicity we had was when I spoke to the track coach at Harvard. His name was Yacko Macola. He was the assistant coach but he was the -- in 1936 he was the track coach, and we told him about our intention and he tried to persuade us not to do it. He said he didn't think we'd do much good and we should try to go to the final tryouts and try to make the team. But we didn't want to do that. And that was the only conversation we really had about it, publicity wise.

Q: ...-ask you about where you were during the games and....[tape ended and new tape began with the following.] When we stopped you were telling me that you and Norman Carnis, your roommate went and told your Harvard track coach of your decision.

A: That's right.

Q: Can you expand upon that a little?

A: We, I went to see the track coach, Norman Carnis didn't.

Q: Let me rephrase that.

A: All right.

Q: You went and told your coach who you had been working with at Harvard of your decision.

A: Yes, I told Yacko Macola. I went to see him and told him that we had decided not to go into the final tryouts.

Q: ...say that again...

A: Well I went to see, to tell my track coach at Harvard, Yacko Macola, that we weren't going to go into the final tryouts and told him the reason that we had spoken to our religious leader, Rabbi Levy, and that we had decided because of the situation that we were told about that we weren't going to go to the final tryouts and he was quite disturbed -- not disturbed but felt that we should really go ahead and we've always wanted to be in the Olympics and he thought we had, that I had a great chance to qualify in two events. And that we, that I should really try to change my mind about going to the final tryouts but he didn't persuade us, persuade me rather. And that was the extent of the discussion with Yacko Macola, the coach.

Q: Did other colleagues of yours on the track team at Harvard go the Olympics or go to at least the final tryouts?

A: None that I know of. There was no one else that had qualified for the final tryouts from Harvard, except me. And I had no discussion with them at that time. We were, I think, having final exams and graduation around June 10C/ or 12*>> and I had no discussion with anyone about the final tryouts.

Q: You were focused on sports; you were focused on your scholarship. You really weren't at that point -- it doesn't sound like that focused on being Jewish. And yet this meeting at your Temple was very compelling to you.

A: Well, no, I was focused on being Jewish. I was focused on being Jewish because I felt loyal and loyalty to Judaism and I had no, we had contact with non-Jews in college and everything but that wasn't a problem as far as I was concerned.

Q: Let me ask you where you were at the time of the games?

A: At the time of the Olympic games I was working at a summer camp as a counselor up in Maine, up in Waterville, Maine. It was called Cedar Crest Camp. And I don't think they had television at that time or they didn't have it at the camp. But I remember of course eagerly reading the papers on the results and figuring out the times that they were winning the events in and the distances in the long jump. So I was following it very carefully but I didn't, I don't remember seeing them actually on TV, but I did later on, on the re-runs.

Q: What about newsreels in the movie houses, anything like that?

A: Well we didn't go to the movies at camp.

Q: The radio?

A: Yeah, I think we had, I think there was a radio we were listening to> I don't remember what the time factor was between the events and the time zone in Waterville, Maine.

Q: Do you remember how you felt as you were following the Olympics?

Wistful?

A: Yeah, I was, I was thinking about how it would have been to have been running in those events and now whether I could have been a medal winner and I was thinking in those terms but I didn't focus as far as actually winning the event at that time.

Q: Were you sorry you weren't there?

A: I suppose in a way I was because as I say I had been thinking about it for all those years, so I was in a way feeling that if I could have made the team and I thought I could that I would have liked to have been in that Olympic setting.

Q: Isn't the Olympics a real dream? What does it mean to you?

A: Well now that's the peak of training or one of the peaks, one of the objectives to be in the Olympics as I've gone to a lot of the Olympics to see it myself. In Los Angeles and in Korea and I'm going to the Olympics in Atlanta this summer with my grandchildren and I always watch those track events with great interest.

Q: Did you feel any resentment about the other athletes who chose to compete, especially the Jewish ones?

A: No, I had no feelings about the Jewish athletes that competed. I didn't know them number one, but I had no feelings one way or the other about their competing, I mean that was up to them and I had no resentment at all about those that did go.

Q: Do you think the American government should have made more of a stand?

A: In retrospect, I certainly do. I think they should have definitely boycotted.

Q: Ineed you to say the American government.

A: Well as far as the boycott is concerned, I think the American government definitely should have boycotted the Olympics in Berlin just like they boycotted the Russian Olympics and now they would have all the more of the facts than I ever had and I think it was definitely a mistake that they didn't boycott the Olympics in 1936.

Q: Do you think it would have made a difference?

A: Yes, I think it would have made a great difference to have the American government show their opposition to what was going on over there in the Nazi regime. I think they made a serious mistake not to boycott it and I know that there was a lot of talk pro and against the, boycotting the Olympics. But I think this is a result more in retrospect rather than at the time. But as I think of it now, I definitely think it was a mistake not to boycott it.

Q: Did you feel at all alone in your decision, as you were following the games?

A: Well I had no recollection particularly of what my feelings were at that time in 1936. But it wasn't any great feeling that I had cause once I made up my mind and felt that it should be that I should go or try for the final tryouts, I didn't lose any sleep over that decision.

Q: It's really hard for me to imagine that you had been training, that this was a real dream of yours and you made this decision for all of the right reasons but that you weren't a little bit torn apart by it.

A: No, I don't, as I remember it, I didn't, I don't remember being particularly torn apart. No, I had a longing and a desire to have been in it, but I didn't have as I look back on it, I don't remember having any terrible regrets for having made the decision.

Q: Never a second thought?

A: Never a second thought on it.

Q: Now let me ask you a sort of a different question. I think you made a pretty bold and moral decision, however you want to phrase it in 1936.

Do you think as you look back on the times since then, do you think that that decision impacted the way you live your life or taught you an important lesson or really meant something very special?

A: Well my decision not to participate in the final tryouts, I don't think had any great impact on my future one way or the other. I mean I participate in athletics and as I said, I was pretty lucky to be performing and held the world's record and Harvard records and was in the Harvard Hall of Fame for athletes and it had no particular impact one way or the other.

Q: Did it encourage you when there were other tough decisions to take the high road. Did you learn anything from it?

A: Well no, I don't think, I mean I felt good that I made the decision. But I don't, as I said I don't think it had any impact as far as my future activities or living or philosophies were concerned. It had no great impact one way or the other.

Q: It's a long time ago. Do you ever think back on that period and what you went through at the time?

A: Yeah, I think back on making that decision and whether I would have on or not -- silver or gold or some sort of a medal and every time I go to the Olympics, I've been to three of them and I watch, I particularly watch the high hurdles and the long jump and I picture myself as maybe having won a medal on it, an Olympic medal. But I participated in the Senior Olympics in 1983 in Florida. Florida Senior Olympics and I won ten medals at that but that was not the real Olympics, that was the Senior Olympics. So I, you know I've won medals in Olympic senior competition.

Q: Since that time you've heard and read a lot about the 1936 Olympics and the extent of the pageantry and the celebration and the propaganda and all of this. Do you think that sports can be separate from politics or that they're just inextricably linked in situations like that?

A: Well I think sports can be separated from politics. In a way they should be but it depends on what the separation is. I mean interference by the government, particularly in sports, I wouldn't like to see that but this is a, the boycotting is different, I don't consider that a mixing of sports and politics or a separation. I mean I think that's a moral ground and I just think that they should have been boycotted; the U.S.

should have boycotted it, not because it's -- there's separation of those activities. But I just think they should have just the way they did in the Russian Olympics.

Q: Germany certainly didn't separate sports and politics in 1936.

A: Well I imagine they didn't.

Q: Thank you. I think that's all my questions but I just want to make sure. Tell me about how this meeting came about. Who was there, why they called you in, what the atmosphere was like and what you did.

A: Well I remember after the Harvard/Yale track meet, which Carnis and I won six gold medals there was quite a bit of publicity in the newspapers and there was a picture of Carnis and myself in the sport page. I forget which paper it was, and saying how we'd won six gold medals and I think they called us Damon and Pythias because we were such good friends.

About three or four days after the track meet, I got a phone call. I forget what the fellow's name was but he said he was calling at the request of Rabbi Levy. And he was on the men's council of the Temple and he had read about what we did at the Harvard/Yale track meet.

And that he understood we were contenders for the Olympics and he had some important information that he'd like to talk to us about at the request of Rabbi Levy and as I had mentioned, Rabbi Levy was the head of Temple Israel in Boston, a Reform Temple, and he was well- respected all over the United States. And I was confirmed at Temple Israel and naturally when they asked us to come, or asked me and Norman Carnis, we agreed to come and I think it was set for two or three days later.

Q: What was going on in your mind, why they had called you over?

A: He said something about he wanted to talk to us about the Olympics and so I wasn't particularly prepared, I didn't know what they were going to talk about. Except that something about the Olympics and we went to the boardroom at the Temple Israel on Commonwealth Avenue in Boston, that's where the Temple was at that time.

And we went there and they explained about the reason they wanted to talk to us was in connection with what was going on in Germany.

And they explained the problems that were going on there with the Nazis and the terrible things that were happening to the Jews there

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection and I don't remember the exact details of exactly what items they were talking about but it was a terrible picture as I remember it and they discussed it fully and we told them that, I told them that I was preparing to go to the final tryouts. And that I'd qualified and had to get prepared for it and train again and they explained to me that again it was a terrible situation there in Germany and they suggested that they thought it would be a very good idea to boycott the Olympics and they were quite sure that I'd never regret it. Even though I had my heard set on being in the Olympics and they suggested that you know it was up to me and Carnis decided what we wanted to do and so I told them that we'd talk it over and let them know what we wanted to do and that was the basic situation as far as that meeting is concerned.

Q: And they really left it up to you that decision?

A: that's right, they left the decision entirely up to us. They didn't say you had to or they indicated, they recommended strongly that it was the right thing to do and we would never regret making the decision.

Q: Why was all this so compelling? You were excited, you were ready to go to the tryouts, the finals and that meeting really turned you around.

A: Yes, that meeting really turned us around because we were horrified at what the terrible things that were going on in Germany and we just felt it was the right thing to do and made up our mind to do it after as I say we, I talked it over with my parents.

Q: After the meeting did you go immediately home? Did you consult with your parents, or your friends? What took place next?

A: Well I was living at the Lowell House at Harvard at the time with Norm Carnis and we went back and talked it over and decided that I'd go home and talk things over with my parents, they lived in Newton.

And I went home and talked it over with them and as I explained, my father called Rabbi Levy to find out if I had the right report.

And after his discussion with Rabbi Levy, he felt that the rabbi had a complete understanding of the whole situation and he could rely on his judgment and that I should rely on his judgment and he said that you know left it up to me but he strongly recommended that I go along with the suggestion from the rabbi and the men's committee. I think the head of the Men's committee I think it was a fellow named Kimler or something close to it, or Kimmel or Kemla, it's some name like that.

Q: Did you follow the trials at Randalls Island?

A: Yes, I followed it to see what they were doing and...

Q: Begin that sentence....

A: Yeah, I followed the trials at Randalls Island cause I was you know very much interested but as I say, I had no regrets after deciding not to go into the final tryouts.

Q: When you were following those tryouts, how were your times compared to the times that qualified people? Would you have probably gone?

A: I don't remember the details of the times at that time. As I recollect now I think I could have made the team at two events -- the long jump and the high hurdles. I'm pretty sure I could have done it in the long jump, I'm not that certain about the high hurdles. Because it depended on how much I improved at my timing there and really concentrating on that event, but I don't remember the details particularly.

Q: Go back for a second. When you received the certificate from Brundage saying you had qualified for the finals, what was it like getting that letter?

A: I was very pleased but I knew that I had qualified because I won the preliminary events and knew that the winning of those preliminary events would get me into the finial tryouts but I liked the certificate and I was you know very pleased to have it and I framed it and kept it.

Q: When you followed the games from the camp in Maine, did your campers follow them with you and did they know that you were in this world class...

A: Yeah, they knew I was.

Q: Can you say my campers?

A: Yeah, when I was a Cedar Crest camp during the Olympics in 1936, most of the campers knew I was a good athlete and was material for the Olympics and the year before I was in the Oxford-Cambridge meet and there was quite a bit of publicity and they talked about it when I came back to camp. So yes, there was quite a bit of talk about the Olympics and whether I could have gotten a medal or not.

Q: A more personal way to follow the games.

A: Yes.

Q: After "86 you went on to graduate school.

A: Yes I did.

Q: Did you, during the war were you in the Army or...

A: Yeah, I was. I enlisted in the Navy aviation and I was in 1943 I volunteered for the Navy aviation and I was in a naval squadron which at that time was a scouting squadron. It was Scouting Squadron 31 and I came in as a lieutenant junior grade which is the equivalent to a first lieutenant. And I came out in 1945 as a lieutenant commander and our...

Q: Overseas and all?

A: Our squadron was an anti-submarine squadron and we were patrolling for and escorting ships out of Boston harbor and Portland, Maine harbor. And after the VE Day we were sent to Norfolk, Virginia and our squadron was being prepared to go out to the Pacific. And I wasn't a part of it but I was what they call an air combat intelligence officer.

And then the war ended, while I was in Norfolk and about a year, six months later I guess it was. So I was in the service in the Navy from "42 I guess to 46.

Q: At what point did you, after "36, at what point did you start, when did you start learning about what was unfolding in Europe?

A: Well I followed the war very carefully, of the campaigns in North Africa and all the different campaigns and was watching it very carefully. But I wasn't particularly aware of any more activities in Nazi Germany at that particular time other than what was going on in the papers.

Q: Did you know about Kristallnacht?

A: Yeah, I remember reading about that and all the terrible things that were happening there and that revolted me tremendously.

Q: Did you feel vindicated in your decision?

A: I never looked at it in that vein; I never looked at it in the idea I was vindicated or not vindicated. Because I felt it was the right thing to do when I made that decision. I didn't think it was in any other terms.

THE END