Document

HERBERT PUNDIK November 11, 1995

A: Anyhow, uh, from that period I only remember one anticipated incident and it's quite remarkable. I have got back memories of I was locked, this was in the thirties when Hitler had taken over Germany and well he had to kind of, well you know, he stimulated a Nazi movement in Denmark. Of course, Nazi movements , against the Jews. But what I meant by this, some instant in the school yard, and I must have been very unhappy because our headmaster who had finished , he was a priest by , by background, but running this prep school. [headmaster's name] called me up to his office and tried to console me and you know it's funny, it's uh, it's uh, it's uh, almost sixty years ago.

, [headmaster's name] took off this typing and put it on my label and said that this is for you. It's fantastic, that this small incident I remember so vividly because it was a gentle way of declaring sympathy. But, at any rate, at that time I must have been about ten years old or so, my grandmother had died, so it must have been in the mid, in the mid thirties, maybe thirty-six. My father was the , religious Jews who had the means. They went, he went to Czechoslovakia and he found a scribe who could write a , you know.

This usually took about one year's time and around thirty-seven my father went down to pick it up in Czechoslovakia and of course then it should be installed in the synagogue and this of course required a whole ceremony and I still remember at that time they had moved to more, my grandparents had moved to more comfortable quarters in the center of , not far away from the synagogue by the way. And um, I still remember the procession leaving the flat of my grandparents, my grandfather, had taken the route towards the synagogue it must have been about one kilometer and in front of this procession were two policemen riding on horseback , to keep order and then came the whole, you know, Orthodox Jewish community with the hasaan(ph), you know, the church singer in front singing all kind of very sad Jewish, Hebrew songs, I'm sure prayers. And after this came, my grandfather holding the Torah(ph), he

was not a very tall fellow, must have been about sixty or so. The Torah was almost as tall as he was. It was a beautiful decorated , of the family had made with the cover decoration with, you know, the name of my grandmother and so on and so forth and the whole Jewish community followed my grandfather then his sons and the rest of the community and the Rabi and what not, you know. And when we passed, the windows of the other private school in this district we had always been in competition, sports competition and academic, you know, competition who brought out the best, the best, you know the best exams and so on. I remember the pupil, this strange, no exotic sons, all three they rushed out and looked out from the window, hey , you know, it was me, they knew me from the football field, ah this is Pundik, you know. They didn't say first names at that time usually formal. Pundik ; yes, DKs laid up[ph], one of the school mates remembered this incident and it made a deep impression on him of course because it was so weird, it was so odd, but it made a very strong impression on me, which I remember to this day. It gave me some kind of, you know, spiritual base, not in a religious term, I respect very much my grandfather and my uncle's and my father to stand by their traditions and not to succumb, you know, to fear and what not and simply go through with this procession as it should be done. And I must say that very often I have been in all kinds of strange situations, I've been reminded of this because these people, they, you know, you couldn't, they were not, they were not, doubtful about, they may have lost, slowly lost their religious feeling, but as Jews to remit very proud, very full of self assurance; which made it easier for them to become , because if you stand by your culture the , will respect you for what you are. But if you start, you know, being wishy-washy and you lose your culture background it becomes more difficult for you to be accepted and integrated in , culture. Jewish culture and other national cultures go very well together because

the Jewish culture of Tereshney[ph] was spiritual culture, not nationally, not nationally, rooted in a special territory. That what is said about Jewish living, you know, the new Jews almost thought(ph), that this was something in the heaven, I mean, it was not through(ph) the Turkish Jews living in Palestine. So this is, I want to relate one more incident which is, which is, told to

me a couple of years ago, I had a schoolmate who is also of Jewish origin in this elementary school, this schoolmate, uh, came from an assimilated family, , | mean they came probably two or three generations before us. They came from a place in Germany called Desow (ph) and the name of the family to this day remains Desow (ph) and he told me when we met by chance a couple of years ago, that, uh, I was always dressed in brown, for some reason my mother always thought that brown suited me well, uh, and of course a very unharmonious relationship between me and the color brown , can't stand it, but that is how it was imposed on you, so I even dressed up in brown, what do you call it, special weaving, uh...

Q: Herringbone

A: I don't know, it's some kind of brown, uh, well most of us either wore blue or gray, or what not, but I wore brown. This guy from Desow(ph) he once came home and asked his mother, Tammy(ph), what is being Jew and then the mother said, well Jew, she didn't say Jewish like you, no, no, she said well the Jew, this is like Putnik. So, now I understand he said, the Jews are those who walk around with thier brown outfits. Anyhow, from that school I graduated into the Jewish school of the fine arts, by the way, also been a pupil, uh, and later I went to, we ought to now reach 1940, uh, 1940. I finished the other school which was a remarkable free school and then I joined the Sengre(ph), the Sengre School, one of the best in Coopenhagen, by the way, where the master, the chief, rector, whatever they are called was married to a Jewish woman who had been my father's teacher in the Jewish school. You know it's a very, very small community, both the Jewish and the non-Jewish community are very interwoven. At any rate, so I, this was 1943 I joined this school,

Q: This is when you(ph) joined the occupation.

A: This was after the Germans in 1940 had occupied Denmark.

Q: How did that effect your family?

A: Well, you know, interesting that they Germans made a deal with the Danish Government. So, when the German occupation was rather non-violent a few Danish soliders put up resistance because they didn't want to listen to the orders from the superiors to lay down their arms. But in

Janisport(ph) when the Germans just marched into neutral Denmark and Denmark had to know that of course they could provide heroes, get heroes had they fought. But they had no political or military power to assist the Danish, the German occupation forces. Demark succumbed, made a deal with the Germans, a deal by the way which is of great significance to our life as Jews because that set us apart from the rest of the Jewish community in Europe, occupied Europe, because the made a deal with the Germans based on a kind of mutual respect, so to say, sharing of, sharing of authority. The Danes(ph) got permission from the Germans to go on with their normal lives. Political parties were non-functioning, the parliament went on giving laws, the government was inside, the King was riding through the town followed by a crowd of school children on his horseback and so to say for most days in these years, the first years of the occupation, life was relatively normal, of course we were effected by the war and by the supply situation, but basically the Germans let the Danes(ph), you know, keep to themselves and run their own lives. We had two, we had two free parliamentary elections Denmark during the German occupation and the last one, the Nazi party, was simply trashed and the Germans didn't, didn't interfere. The Germans on their side of course wanted the Danes(ph) to let the Germans go on, so to say, building fortresses along the west coast to protect against a possible allied invasion and Denmark was supposed to be kind of supplying people for the Germans so the last part of the agricultural production(ph) went to the German army and the last part of the industrial production went to, so Denmark as a matter of fact became kind of unwilling, but still partner to the German war effort, one has to admit that, but this, sorry yes...

Q: Let me ask you about the Jewish community and your family in particular. Did they feel threatened, vulnerable, did they feel...

A: no, no, no...

Q: They felt protected by the Danes?

A: Well the Danish government, this of course we did not know, but we know today. The Danish government told the Germans that there were a number of red lines which the Germans were supposed to respect in order to protect Danish sovreignty. One of the red lines was that no

distinction between Danish citizens. Meaning that no special anti-Jewish legislation, no interference with Jewish life at the synagogue, the synagogues were operating the schools, were operating the old age homes, whatever you had so the structure of the Jewish community remained untouched by the German occupation until a certain moment of course, which was the famous day of 29th of August 1943. I want to just relate one thing, of course the Jews knew about what was on in Europe, but vaguely, you know we didn't even know in 1942, in September, October the Germans had arrested the majority of the Norwegian Jews, although we were related to the community, intermarriage between the communities and youthful activities, we didn't know because we kind of lived in empty space, we didn't have information. We could hear pbe of course, but pbe didn't know much about the holocaust either until 1943, we didn't know about the Warsaw Ghetto for instance, and the allies did not consider this a very important item in the news broadcasting, so we lived as a matter of fact in a fools paradise. Being persuaded to believe that the normal life we lived could continue without end. In the Danish community, by the way, was influenced by the Danish patricians, the Danish officials went on telling us, don't be afraid, we'll protect you because we have told the Germans if they touch the Jews this is what you call , this would be cause for war and then we would resign and the Germans would have to run the country. The Germans at that time did not necessarily have the desire to turn this country which was serving their ends into a hostile country which they would have to occupy with tens of thousands of soldiers which they needed somewhere else. So there was kind of a balance based on communal interest, the Danish wanted to run the country safely out of the war the Germans wanted to have as much peace as possible to concentrate their efforts in another front.

Q: Were there Jews who went into the resistance, the...

A: I wanted to come to this because one of the things that was posted on us was not to get involved with the emerging resistance, don't get the resistance started, acting to be a popular movement only after the mid or end 1943. Until then resistance was some groups committing small sabotage acts, publishing newspapers, but it was not something which the

Germans at all felt threatened by, not at all. Maybe it consisted of a few hundred Danish people, but didn't want to enjoy the benefits of this Danish-German agreement. People bother, but they have no effect on the German war effort. So, we were told don't join them.

Now I was at that time at the age of 15 and of course I joined them. If people told me not to do it and it happened so that the famous communist , it was a schoolmate of mine. We started selling illegal newspapers and books published by the emerging resistance in order to finance their activities, they sold these books to underground of course, it was banned by the Germans, banned by the authorities, by the censor, the Danes had a post on Denmark. The Danes in order to prevent annoying the Germans too much, so one of the books I remember was by John Steinbeck. He was a part of the German occupation of Norway with me. He write, not a very sophisticated book, what it was, it served the purpose of these times. So, we were and of course the first thing you did was to settle to your family, but at any rate

this was discolored by my father who was a member of the Jewish, one of the Jewish community agencies, member of the board or something. So of course he was more exposed(ph) than others because the Germans, as you know, that there had been always before going for the Jews in the community to take all the members of the leadership of the community simply to deprive the rest of the Jews from any leadership. This is the way they used to handle it. So my father was very unnerved, you've got to do this because that might put me, the family, the community in a very sensitive dangerous position. And I didn't want to listen to my father and he of course, what do you do, you call the chief Rabbi. At that time chief Rabbis were not administrators of community affairs. They were people, imposing people with beards, you know and supposed to harbor a certain amount of wisdom. So I was told to go to the chief Rabbi.

Q: This is Fleetiger(ph)?

A: His name was Max Fleetiger(ph). He was originally from Hungary. He spoke in the Danish language, but of course speaking with a heavy Hungarian accent. Later he was taken by the Germans and brought to a concentration camp and survived and came back

into the community again. But, I still remember, there are some parts in history which you remember vividly where you are standing or sitting with the other guy, like the story with the typing, I remember that I was asked to sit down. I was standing up and he was sitting behind a huge desk with his , his and had a beard like or square, long beard, very well groomed, but you know. They told me that they, he ordered me to give up all this playing around and he said, I remember this today, if you don't give it up, you and others of your sort, you know, will risk the welfare of the Jewish community because if the Germans catch you or the Danes catch you revenge might be taken and that might put the whole safety of our community in danger. So, give it up. The moment that you have been told that you have the responsibility for a whole community and you're only fifteen years old, of course you'll give it up. So I went home and I burnt, and burnt all that was left of the illegal books and newspapers and so on. That must have been immediately before the trip to or immediately after. But you know that in 1943, August there was a clash between the Danes and the German interest and to put it shortly the Danes resigned and the Danish Government retired and the Parliament went home the King went into exile in his castle and the Shee(ph) which has protected us from German encroachment was removed overnight. Suddenly there were only Germans and us. The Germans didn't have to anymore consider this deal about you stick to your things and we'll stick to our things and the Jewish we are leaving behind. So at that time, 1943 August, about half of the Jewish community of Europe had been destroyed by the holocaust. We didn't know a thing, we didn't prepare a thing, the community did not try to build up kind of work preparing us. We were, we were__, remember my father went

to the Director of the Foreign Ministry, during these days, of course we had a feeling that the situation had changed dramatically and that of course would change our situation, but we just didn't know how and he went to the Director of Foreign Ministry, who was living in the neighboring house and he asked me what's new so he said, don't worry, I have contact with the Germans all of the time and if anything is cropping up, we will warn you, don't worry. Well, of course something cropped up, mainly the German Nazi against the Jews on the 2nd of October

and he never warned us. I just want to tell in brackets a little human angle. We escaped of course and came back a couple of years(ph) later from Sweden and right after our return my parents sent this, by then had retired, a big bunch of flowers saying, don't worry, you didn't warn us but we got away and safely we came back. Now, whether they heard anything from me or not, I don't know, it was a very, very difficult situation of course, being faced with this old preach of promise. But many, many years later when I was serving as chief editor of the Danish daily newspaper called, Put___.(ph) maybe 50 years later...and one of our staff members aboard the 22 union(ph) it was not very easy because he sort of wanted to stay out of the limelight. I called him and asked him to make an exception and our reporter.

He said, well I'll tell you one thing, there's one bunch of flowers I received one night which I will never forget. These were the flowers which your parents sent me in 1945 after you came back from refuge in Sweden. It meant a lot to him that some people were trying to forgive him for having broken his promise. Which of course could have cost us our lives, of course. At any rate, so the Danish underground movement started becoming more and more of a nuisance to the Germans. At one point the Germans wanted the Danish Government, the Danish authorities had control over the Danish army, the Danish police, everything was in place. The Germans wanted the Danes to take steps in order to crush the underground movement and to the Jews they sentenced for sabotage of court(ph) and so on and so forth. Well it's a long story, but the Danes refused the whole set up, so to say once abolished(ph) and the Germans were sitting with the mark in their hands and . Then come September, September month and somebody else was figuring on what happened politically, especially on the German scene(ph) with regard to our situation as Jews in Denmark. But suffice here to say that the Germans decided to extend the Jewish repression to Danish Jews, about 6,000 maybe 7,000 we were at that time and they ordered three ships to come from Germany and anchor in Copenhagen preparing to take us and a group of communists who had been imprisoned by the Danish authorities who had not yet been released, not succeeded in being released when the authorities went home. So the Germans simply arrested them as one of the most, most

dishonorable, dishonorable events in modern day history, by the way. Of course they were arrested and kept against the constitution. Anyhow, the ships were prepared to take 7,000 Jews and a few hundred communists to Germany or to Poland, whatever they planned to do. But then something happened which enabled us to be warned beforehand and just shortly a warning came from the German who was the head of the German occupation authorities in Denmark. His name was Wern Best(ph), Wern with a "W", Best, B-E-S-T and he instigated the entire Jewish activities by advising Hitler that now was the time after the Danish-German cooperation had collapsed, now was the time to go for the Jews. But for his own reasons, which is a very complicated matter, I don't want to go into too many details because people are much more versed into the details than I am. For his own reasons, he let the secret slip out and told one of his collaborators in the German, in the German embassy . A fellow who was a Nazi too, his name was Tuckawitz, T-U-C-K-A-W-I-T-Z, Tuckawitz, told about the approaching, German, German, action, I guess the Jews...Now this Tuckawitz, by the way, was a member of the German Nazi party, an early member of the Nazi party. Best was much earlier, Best was one of the evil spirits of the police department of the emerging Nazi party even before the two powers divides(ph) into three. Really, really a war criminal. He was not ever condemned to death, he should have been, for the reason that he let the secret slip and this was used by his defense to protect him against a life sentence after, death sentence after the war. But Tuckawitz was kind of a reformed Nazi and he became close, he was a neighbor, commercial, commercial. He had been with Camaris the head of the German intelligence. Camaris, C-A-M-A-R-I-S who is by the way execute(ph)

by the Nazis. He had been with him at this job at the German embassy and was to prepare the German occupation of Denmark in 1940. But he remained here and established very close contact with the leaderships of the socialcratic party and became embarked with them and started to distancing himself from the Nazi ideology. Of course especially the anti-Jewish part of it and that when Best tipped him off saying that this day the of the Jews will take place and Best is quoted by Tuckawitz by the way, after the war. In racial talk or what German

to the station. Tuckawitz quoted Best as saying, "I wish we could build a bridge across the south between Denmark and Sweden to aid these poor people to get safely away." We never, we never know if Tuckawitz invented this, there's no motive for his having to invent it, but there's no third witness. You only have his word for it that Best didn't say it(ph), not because he loved(ph) Jews, he had been spending half his year fighting Jews, killing Jews. But his didn't find that it was in his best interests that particular moment of history where everything was going against the German, the German arms, after the invasion of Italy. After the collapse of the German, the German military that fought in the Stantengard(ph) in Eastern Russia, in Russia. It was not for his, in his

interests that this anti-Jewish action should secede, that's why he told it to Tuckawitz who immediately informed the German, the Danish social-democratic(ph) leaders, who immediately went to the head of the Jewish community, a very respectable and respective lawyer of the high court called C.B. Pedricus(ph), a famous Jewish name. And they went to him and told him, okay, now you better prepare for something because there are only a couple of days left. And it's very interesting, it has to be remembered because part of the Disney Land atmosphere which we lived, they were killing Jews all over, all around us. From Norway and all through the continent and we thought that we would go Scot-free and didn't prepare for anything.

The Jewish community and leadership didn't even destroy the index of names and addresses of the Jewish community. The Germans came one day and confiscated it. Still this was not enough for us, so start moving, you know. And this guy in and the Danish political(ph) leaders, to want him(ph), they said, Mr. Hedtoft, H-E-D-T-O-F-T, Mr.

Hedtoft, later became the prime minister of Denmark after the war. He said, you are lying, he said well Hedtoft told him that he had a good source and that the game was up. You are lying.

And Hedtoft almost broke out in tears because he was facing the war(ph) and the war(ph) didn't respond. But they succeeded after a while at making them understand that this was a serious matter and then out went the warning, the telephone chain as they called it, from one Jewish family to another that tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, don't stay at home because the

Germans will come after us. Where you go, everybody was on his own. The community had not prepare any escape route or any escape organization, nope, nothing.

Q: How did your father hear? Do you remember?

A: My father, yes, my father heard this from somebody who had called him, who had been to morning prayers in the synagogue on September 13th I think. And he came home, I was in school, you know, we went on acting as if life was normal, you know, and as if we were as Danish as the Danes; which to some extent we were, at least in the eyes of the Danes, but not in the eyes of the Germans of course. By the way there was no yellow star, you know, there were no, there were no special legislation introduced by the Germans as regards to the Jewish part of the Danish community, Danish population. I went to school early in the morning, maybe at ten o'clock or so, the headmaster came in and he said, "I'm sorry but you and you," he said, "you better come out, I have something to tell you in the corridor." And I remember that suddenly we got up from our desks and were following him. Suddenly he turned around again and he said to the teacher, "you better come with me too." The teacher was also a part Jewish and then the fade away(ph). But you know, at that time, I was fifteen, I was fifteen years old I must have been, you know, retarded because I didn't understand anything at all, because we didn't speak about these things at home.

Q: So you weren't afraid?

A: I was not afraid. You know I remember I took the tram(ph) and I went to Keyosk(ph) to buy the weekly magazines as I have done every week and I still remember I came with the weekly magazine sitting under my arms. My parents, the door was wide , my parents were waiting all dressed up, you know, over coat, why it was winter(ph), October, and said, "hurry up, we have to get away." And that's what we got because we...

End of Tape 1.

Tape 2

Q: Herbert, I would like to begin by asking you about your family background and when your parents or grandparents came to Denmark.

A: Well, as a matter of fact I am the first generation born in Denmark. My father's side the family came just after the turn of the century from Ukraine, a town called Romney. Which is quite a famous town in Jewish history because a guy named Toebetor, who became a hero in the Palestine fighting(ph) with the Arab's(ph) back in the 20's came from there. Another guy called Rotenbeck(ph) who made the first project for electrification(ph) of Palestine there.

My, , the first group of chim(ph) agricultural pioneers came from the same small town called Romney and they settled at the canya(ph) and they formed the first . Now my grandfather was what they call a kabaducmaha(ph). That means

a...do you know what that is? Well, he made hats, caps. And he told me when I was a young man and I asked him why did you leave Romney, why did you run away from Russia, the Ukraine. He said that there was a in Romney around 1903 or 4, there was a whole empetamy(ph) of good programs at that time the collection(ph) with the defeat of Russians to the Russian-Japanese war. And this Romney was a little influential town where half of the population was Jewish, many of them were artisans, as my grandfather and he and a number of friends lived in a square, farm-like building on the outskirts of the town. And he told me that just before the pulcrum(ph) erupted a Russian officer came to him and he was from the Cossack brigade and told him that you come with him and take his family. And you know at that time you didn't ask why when an officer told you, so he took the family and they walked to the house of the officer and he said you stay here. And just right after the pulcrum(ph) erupted many Jews were killed some of the work staff(ph) in this farm-like building where my grandfather had his works were burned and after the pulcrum the officer took my grandfather back to the place and on the way he asked him, "why did you save me and my family?" and the officer said, "well Jew, that's because you make such wonderful hats for my soldiers." And my grandfather who hadn't finished any main(ph) university or any higher education he just knew that to survive that if the future of his family was dependent on his hats fit square with the soldiers heads then he

better get out as quick as possible. So the pack(ph) that was left and of course they were on their way to America, like most Jews, millions of Jews during these years went to America. Being poor people the money quickly was spent when the in Germany they had no more money to pay for their passage across the Atlantic. So they made up their mind to go to some place called Denmark. Why Denmark, because my grandmother had a brother who had immigrated earlier to Denmark and he had sent some postcards saying that it was not a bad country. So the thoughts in their heads were let's go where the money reached, the money took them to Gomain(ph), that was, as I said around 1905 or 6 or something. And they settled down in one of the poorest quarters of Copenhagen, which today of course is Bohem(ph) quarter and were renovated(ph) slum houses. It was, but they went there because it was Jewish district and they could meet people which spoke their language, which was not Russian it was Yettish, they were not Russian speakers. And they could somehow repeat and rebuild to some extent the medium(ph) in which they had lived.

Q: A religious ?

A: Well, that's what I want to add. Another reason why they went their was that it was not far away, within walking distance from the synagogue. For them the synagogue was the center in their lives, both the religious life and the sacred(ph) life they lived.

Q: Which synagogue?

A: Well it was, it was the synagogue which belonged to the Uta(ph) orthodox and the community which was built around that time. , it was not at that time as far as my grandfather goes, the big synagogue which had the kind of modernistic service, although it's conservative. He looked for his people and they were at this small synagogue.

Of course, the , my father's generation they left the synagogue and joined the large, more modern synagogue. But this was kind of an intimate relationship with religion. By the way this relationship with religion didn't last for long because my grandfather of course was very religious, he was also a small bearded fellow, my father didn't of course, he shaved and he was observant but not orthodox and the third generation intermarried

and in a few cases were not Jews or became non-observant. But still of course were some hang(ph) for tradition, you know, they speak about two kinds of Jews: they speak about Balkhudan(ph); means Jews whose sits in the stomach, gives Jews and the other group is called; alkhudan, which means that they are also Jews. But at any rate, so they settled there, and of course at that time they were three children, one of them that immigrated was my father. He was at that time he was maybe 5, 6, 7 years old. They were immediately sent to school. And here starts the immediate integration into Danish society because of this school was a Jewish school was formed by a Jew of Danish origin who saw that these immigrants who came from Poland, from Russia at the turn of the century. They had to become Danes quickly, he didn't mind if they would stay Jewish as far as religious observances, but he wanted them integrate us as quickly as possible into the Danish social life. Simply in order to protect the community that was there from rotten shoulders cold(ph) religionist who sort of say would be looked at with hostility from the Danish environment because they were unobservant. So this was a great lack of the Danish-Jewish community that they would provide services that would immediately channel them into the Danish society.

Learning language, getting ready for Danish career.

Q: Did your grandfather continue as a hat maker?

A: He continued, sure he continued as a hat maker and my father when he was at the age of 9, 10 years old when he came back from school, everyday he would have to take a case with hats, 6 penses, you know, and go in the harbor of Copenhagen. At that time Copenhagen was very, very dynamic harbor town, which it is not today, and to sell six penses to the sailors and to the harbor, port workers and so on. From that time my father had a deep feeling of gratitude to the Danish working class. Which put a little attitude so that he, although it became what you would call industrially started capitalism, he went on continued voting for social democrats because as he always told me, these people, you can match a little Yettish speaking boy looking strange with this Danish were Danish of course, but two or three years in the country, walking around the harbor with a box of 6 penses trying to peddle them to the

Danish workers. He could feel rejected by them and the country, so he had a very, since then, he so to say P [person's name] admired the Jews to politics and he became very, very generous as a donor for all kinds of Jewish and non-Jewish causes because he felt that he owed these people something. By the way, jumping out a bit, but when they later built a very large and modern textile factory in Copenhagen he was one of the first Danish industrialists to attend to the needs of the workers. Providing for instance, kindergarten for the workers who couldn't leave home or find a place in the public service and a building one of the best, beautiful canteens facing a garden so that they could relax. He was, he didn't know that he was progressive, but he acted in a very progressive way out of purely sentimental reasons. At any rate, so they settled here, and of course I'm not telling you anything that you don't know, because it's sort of kind of a replica of what happened to many Jews who came to the east coast of America as immigrants from the same areas. That they put learning very high because they knew, for two reasons. Learning was part of the Jewish tradition, of course. The religious tradition, where all, all children quickly at the age of 3 or 4 years went to Torah(ph) school and learned to read. Read Hebrew letters, so of course this was pretty converted also so the desire to learn other things, other written languages but Hebrew. That was one thing, the respect for the book and the respect for the language. And secondly of course we learned that if you want to kind of upward mobility in society, you had to study. So my father couldn't afford it because he was the eldest so he had to go out and help the parents make a living, so the others could afford to study. But the second boy in the family became an engineer and living great desires. And he became one of the very first immigrant boys who graduated from the university. So very quickly they started moving into society. Then of course came the first World War, 1914. Denmark was, as you know, a neutral country and there was kind of an economic boom, prosperity in Denmark because it was neutral. Of course it exploited the possibilities it had by supplying the warring(ph) states with what they needed. There was Danish military mobilization to protect the neutrality of Denmark and of course these soldiers they needed hats and they needed uniforms and so on. And the Jewish didn't know anything about a 7

or 8 day work week, you know, a 7 or 8 hour work week. They worked as much, as long as they needed to provide, to supply those that gave them to consignments. They started establishing themselves and moving from this very poor street to this street in the same neighborhood which was a little bit less poorer, and I have a list at home which one of my uncles made where he noted all of the addresses within the first couple of years. It was tremendous, this was kind of migrant population. they had more money, they got another child, they moved into a flat with a half room more, bedroom more, that's how they slowly, slowly progressed and moved into more boudoir quarters and became, as a matter of fact part of the Danish middle class.

Within probably the early 30's they had become middle class.

Q: Living separately in a Jewish community within the Danish middle class?

A: No, no, when the moment they moved out of the poor quarter, of course they moved into the middle, they used the Danish community. I wouldn't say that they had lots of social contact with them of course, because still their religion and the synagogue was, so to say, the axis of their life.

But of course, there were 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, there were 8 children and of course the children reached out towards Danish society. You probably had the same effect that you have today, many Danish girls attempted to strike up relationships with types from the Mediterranean and these were not Mediterranean's, but they were exotic at least. And Denmark at that time was a very, very homogenous society and when these young Jews came to Copenhagen, they were attractive and exotic. By the way many of them married non-Jewish, already(ph) in the first generation.

Q: And how did your grandfather react to that?

A: You know, you know what happens, I don't know if this is pattern, but anyhow in my experience is that there are several phases. One of the phases, one is a phase of shock. The second is the phase of slowly adapting but not reestablishing contacts. The third phase is when the first child is born and then the whole bloody thing breaks down, you know you can't, then relations are reestablished and everybody's is happy. But at any rate, I just want to go back for one moment to this Romney, I tried to visit it during the communist times before Gorbachev and before the break down of the soviet system. I went with a friend, a Russian

speaking friend, and we went to Kiev(ph) and we asked if anybody would take us to this place which is about 150 kilometers from Romney and everybody shied away and said, no you need a special permit, this is a closed country. So we found a very unhappy driver, unhappy because he was deeply indebt for playing some kind of, I don't know, hasard(ph) or whatever it was. One of his other friends, and couldn't pay his debt to the people who he owed money, they were people, very strong armed people. One of his friends had to explain to us, we should jump out of the window because was jumping himself or being thrown out of the window, so he wanted to make money. You know, at any costs, so he decided that it was worth to run the risk and take us without permission to Romney and during the trip he turned to us and said, this friend of yours who speaks perfect Russian, they're Danish Jew, by the way, but born in Russia, he was a corespondent of the Danish state journalist in Moscow. He said that this guy is from the KGB, so we said why should he be from the KGB? Well, he speaks such perfect Russian, he's just posing as a Danish journalist. But after just a few miles, the guy turns around and he said to us, "gee" he said, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake he's not from the KGB." And we said, "how do you know by now" and he said, "look out through the back window" and we looked out and there was a car following us, he said, "these are the KGB's." And they really followed us all the way from Kiev(ph) about 150 kilometers to the outskirts of the town Baneso(ph) the sign board spelling Romney, then they jumped at us, they stopped our progress and we had to go out, we had to sign documents and there was investigation and what not. Later we complained to the Russian foreign minister, of course, didn't help. I asked one of the Russians to take me, how long to keep this place closed. He said, "well as long as you want to visit it, it remains closed." There must have been some military reasons, reasons for it.

Anyhow, now of course, the town, I wanted to see. Maybe because of family, maybe because of cemetery, maybe because of the synagogue. I just wanted, for several reasons, to see the place where my father had been born. But now, of course, everybody can go there, but now I'm not very attracted by it anymore. It was the prohibition that was attractive apparently. But anyhow, from this town, originally the first group that formed the first collective settlement keboots(ph) in

Palestine at that time, later Israel. That was around 1908, or something of that close, maybe 1909. But I asked my grandfather, why didn't you join them, you were the same age group and you had to leave your town anyhow? Why did you have to take this long route around Copenhagen and what not, just for me 50 odd years afterwards to have to rise and go to Zion(ph), you know, all the troubles. We could have landed there earlier, be part of the aristocracy. So he said, "are you crazy," I would never have guessed this, he said, "do you think that I would have joined a gang where the Tracy Malicker(ph)," it's a Yettish, it's a Yettish derivation of Melcher(ph) which is a female name in Hebrew, "the Tracy Malicker, should I join these barefoot people, you know, they walk around barefoot." It's true, that the first you know, that they called them the "ball fees(ph)," the barefeet, because they were poor and they made an issue about being puretanic(ph) and so. Well anyhow I decided that, well, they were crazy we all could see that they were crazy, we all could see that they were crazy, you know. I decided that I wanted to find out what this crazy Malicker(ph) had been doing and I called the keeboots(ph) and they found out that this crazy Malicker(ph) who my grandfather didn't want to join, she became one of the most prominent educators in the Palestine Zionist(ph) Keeboots(ph) movement. But anyhow, to jump ahead, we, my grandfather, became retired and my father started working at the Petlier(ph), the famous 7 , you know. They only went to school for 7 years at that time and he became a statesman(ph)[possibly "salesman" and he passed the career which, you know, the marriage of Jewish immigrants, he started as an employee, as a statesman, he became independent(ph) statesman and by the year, he was traveling very much in Scandinavia, some place else that the I have been living commuting between Denmark and Israel for thirty years is part of the inheritance from my father. Every Sunday I met my dad, we wished him well, and he went to the railway station and either went to Days(ph) Provinces, or he went to Sweden, or Finland to make a living. He came back Friday went to the Synagogue in the evening, had to, back at home and on Sunday off they went again. In the mean time, he got married. My mother's family came originally from Poland, when she was a couple

of years old they settled in Litic(ph). I'm sure I inherited some of the adventurous spirit of that part of the family because my grandfather, my great-grandfather...

Q: On your mother's side.

A: In the late ages they immigrated from Poland to America and came back and settled in Litic(ph). He called his family from Poland to Litic(ph), Litic(ph) is in Germany.

They became American citizens because he was naturalized as an American. I still have at home a fantastic picture where you see the old man all dressed up, you know, on the day that he became an American citizen. That must have been a glorious day in his life. Anyhow, from that moment the family was American. They were American citizens, but residing in Germany.

Now when the war started, the first World War, they of course, as American citizens, had to leave Germany, go to a neutral country. So they went to Denmark. And they stayed throughout the war years in Denmark. And they had a couple of beautiful daughters and they were very respected in the community. And after the war they returned to Litic(ph), but they left the kind of impression on the Danish community here. So when my father came of age and was supposed to find a wife to settle down, some people in the community,"well, ==--=--=--------------saa very nice family from Litic(ph) and they had two beautiful daughters, go and take a look." So my father went, went to Litic(ph), and that must have been 1925 or 6 and they married and my mother joined, of course, my father in Copenhagen. And that is how, how a nuclear family so to say, came to Denmark. One from Russia, one from Poland, by America and Litic(ph) and they settled down in Copenhagen. I was born in 1927. This is more or less the origin of the family. In 1933 they left the rest of the family, my grandparents and left Litic(ph) and they immigrated to America where some of their boys already had gotten, became very American patriotic, you know they served, the boys, in the second World War, the army, the navy and so on. Very Americanized.

Q: What was your mother's family's name?

A: Originally it was Takletaub(ph). It's not an unusual Jewish name, Takletaub(ph).

Takletaub(ph) is the name of a certain kind of a dove, pigeon. But they abbreviated "tove" to

"taub," t-a-u-b. This was more, I just want to say one funny thing about my grandfather on my mother's side. He was very, very strict and stubborn. He's remembered as a disciplinary in the family. One of these autocratic, patriotic types, who could never do wrong, and if he ever did do wrong, he could never admit it. My mother told me one particular case, he was supposed to go some place in Europe from Litic (ph) the family took him to the train and they waved at him good-bye and he sat down and they were very , they were very unemotional. So they never stood in the window of the train waving good-bye, they simply, when they put out the window and took out the newspaper they could on the platform, you know, looking at the family patriarch leaving. But what happened that day was, he went onto the wrong train and instead of going to Paris, he ended up in Prague and he could never admit it because had he changed in the meantime, you know, half way, then of course it would be ridiculous. So from that moment he pretended that as a matter of fact he was supposed to go to Prague while the people were waiting for him in Paris. So, anyhow, so they settled and they got, my parents, got three children. Besides me, my brother and my sister. My brother was killed by an accident in 1946. My sister immigrated, 7 years we immigrated in 1954. To Israel(ph) where she married and lives today, has three children. That is more or less as far as 1 remember the relative background...

Q: Were you the oldest, middle?

A: I was the oldest, yes.

Q: And did you go to Jewish day school?

A: Well I, I did go to Jewish day, the first five, the first day school...

Q: ...day school...

A: ...this I don't remember.

Q: You had mentioned that...

A: But I had went to the first elementary class, is the first 5 elementary school years. I went to a private school in the area where we lived. One of the snobbish schools in Copenhagen. But this was part of the, not because my parents were snobs, but they wanted me to have a good

education and succeed. They wanted you quickly to join, to join the rush. So they put you in the best school available.

Q: And Jews were allowed in any of those schools?

A: Of course, Denmark was, since the Jews got citizenship, they were totally equal there. Of course there were Danes who didn't like Jews but there was not anti-Semitism in Denmark. I always distinguish between societies where you have anti-Semites and societies where you have anti-Semitism. In Denmark you have anti-Semites, the individuals but you never had a trend or a movement of this kind. Even the Nazis when they formed a political party were very weak on the anti-Semitic stuff because they knew that this would reject some of their potential followers.

You know, Jewish-Denmark for the last 150 years had been, there's been a kind of, you know, what do you call, these tries(ph) children pay(ph) within circuses, you know up and down, up and down mountain rides, you know, you had...

Q: You mean a roller coaster?

A: A roller coaster, that's right, sorry, a roller coaster. You had immigration, then the people who were after acclimatized(ph), they assimilated within a couple of generations. The Jews almost were extinguished as community, then a new wave of immigrants came; so came up and down, up and down. Today we hadn't had an immigration in 1969 of Polish-Jews, a couple thousand Pol-Jews, the Danish community, the Jewish community would be very, very weak because similar to what happened in some of the states of America. You have a integration rate or assimilation rate or intermarriage rate, call it what you want for more than 50, 60 percent. So if no more Jews will arrive in Denmark or the next generation than the two Jew races, the two other year, two other century old history of Danish Jews would more or less be concluded.

Q: Herbert, when you were younger, were there, did you participate in any religious ceremonies?

A: We were of course, we were observant at home.

Q: Was a kosher home...

A: I beg your pardon...

Q: You had a kosher home.

A: Of course, yes. I walked to Synagogue every Saturday an hour walk with my father. Later of course, the chief Rabbi realized that he had to choose either between letting the Jews take the tram or the subway to Synagogue, or they wouldn't go to synagogue. So they released the Jews, from the Jews to walk, and he permitted them under the condition that they had bought tickets the day before, he permitted them to drive to Synagogue. By this, so to say, he saved the community from extinction. At any rate, | remember I was not supposed to go to school on the holidays or on the . Iwas in the beginning when I was not supposed to wear anything, my pockets, you know. I remember that I wore, what they call abachafaut(ph), which is kind of cloth which you wear under your, on your skin with four tetsiut(ph) applied, you know. This was a religious garment and I wore this as a child. You can imagine that when we had physical training lessons in school and they discovered that this guy wore some very strange things under his underwear. But it gave me a feeling of identity and I survived whatever it might have been on funny remarks. And this ties up with a story that I want to tell you which happened to me during the same period when I went to this elementary, non-Jewish school. Well one thing I remember very, very strongly that was one anti-Semitic incident in school.

End of Tape 2.

Tape 3

A: Anyhow, I remember when we took a taxi out to hide with a friend of my father's, a business friend, of course, non-Jewish couple. And I was later told by my mother, years after that the driver of the taxi refused to take money for the trip. At that time this was the first sign of some kind of, say, popular resistance coming to the aid of the Danes. You know, people were warned by neighbors, by Jewish families to just leave their homes. But there were moving details, you know, some Jews who took hiding into the woods because they had no where to go. There was a botanical garden in the center of Copenhagen just across from one of the large municipal hospital and the doctors and nurses during the day went out and searched for Jews hiding in the botanical garden. People who didn't have business friends who they could turn to. I remember, one of my,

a friend of mine later at the university who became a member of parliament for the social democratic party, his father was head of the social democratic party organization in the center of Copenhagen and he simply recruited his son and a few other youngsters and he told them to go through each and every house, look at the name cards and when they see something that could be Jewish, warn them and tell them to get away. At that time, already, lots of individual initiatives were taken. There was no coordinating rule for organization. But the moment the people, non- Jews realized that the Jews were in danger, than all kinds of initiatives were taken by individuals, by groups of people, by priests, by hospitals and so on. So, this particular case, whenever they met a Jewish family, there were many Jewish families in this area here, especially poorer Jewish families because it was at that time before the war restrictive, not so, no quality housing, I would say to put it mildly. So they had been told, if you find a Jewish couple, tell them immediately to take a taxi and go to Bespepyau(ph), Bespepyau Hospital, where they would be offered hospitality and put into hiding. One place he found another friend student of his a student, a fellow of his and they said, well it can't be, you know, that's how the Jewish reaction was to the unintelligible. Of course, it must be against nature. And again he told me years later that it broke him to weeping, simply because...so then the father, the father said, you're my friends, you're my sons friends and if you say, we believe it and then to the car(ph) and went out to the hospital. In one case he told me that he found an old, old lady and took her to the hospital and suddenly she got a fit of hysterics...

Q: ...anxiety?

A: ...anxiety, that's right. She had forgotten the garments which she had prepared for her burial.

Q: The shroud(ph)?

A: The shroud, yes. She had forgotten this in her home and she insisted to go back to pick it up and there was a big commotion and the head of the rescue operation there(ph), who later became mayor, lord mayor of Copenhagen, he told my friend , 1 prohibit you to go back, it's dangerous, you must leave without the shroud, you know. Our friend still went back to pick up

the shroud and delivered it to her. There where lots of small incidents where people really showed some kind of...

Q: ...sensitivity

A: sensitivity or empathy with the people who...anyway that's the story. The story is that night we stayed with our friends, we couldn't stay more than one night at one place because, you know. Now we know in retrospect that the Germans acted totally different than they acted in other occupied countries. But we had to prepare for the worst, so we had to make all kinds of decisions because we believed that this was a serious matter for the Germans. Now we know that they were all common interest in the German camp which enabled us to escape to Sweden, but it's quite obvious that half the Germans acted with the same will power. The same, the same organizational talent which they used in prosecuting, persecuting Jews in other countries. Of course they would have caught us, but we didn't know so we had to act as if...by the way this is also true for the Danes. After the war there was the inclination to say, well anyhow the Danes are not such great heroes, but the of the Danes were caught, those few that were caught got two or three weeks of prison by the Danish authorities. You know, we still had Danish courts, we didn't have German courts. Looking at most of the Jews, only 500 were arrested, the rest were . It's true that the conditions were in our favor and in the favor of the Danes who helped us to rescue. But one has to go back and look at the situation as it were in as far as we could know and all the Danes who came to our help. They had no reason to believe that they did not risk their lives. And in other countries like Poland, France, Germany and anybody hiding a Jew was stood up against the wall and shot. So I really think that this was a very heroic chapter in Danish history. But we thousands of things, well, could believe that they were ready to risk their lives and save the Jews. The fact that they didn't(ph) do it comes, that we learn after the war. But this doesn't change the fact that they were justified believing that they acted as heroes.

Q: But the Germans did capture some, didn't they?

A: They captured about 5 hundred and about 6,500 came over. Now in our case, we shifted from the first hiding place to another. We went down the coast. This was like animals do looking for escape routes. You go by the smell, you know, and you go by instinct you went down to the coast because the only place that you could hide, along the coast and hope to be able to get to the only place that might receive you and protect you was Sweden. And the sound(ph) between Denmark and Sweden is not very wide, but it recovered by the distance from the Danish coast to Sweden territory water could be covered by a quick boat in less than half an hour. But it was beyond our imagination. There lies Denmark which is hidden in the darkness and just across this narrow sound was neutral Sweden with lights and with chocolate and bananas and what not. But began to realize that there were people who were able to live another kind of life that

we were. But we went down to the coast hoping that we could escape this way of course and hapbeny(ph), the Swedish government who had, by the way, not been welcoming to Romney refugees in 42's and early 43 issued a declaration during these H days welcoming all Jews saying that they could come to Swedish protection. The fact is that the Swedish not only made statements to that effect, but they also acted accordingly because Swedish patrol boats from the navy went out took the Swedish to the borderline and the moment that Danish boats crossed this borderline the Swedish boats immediately came to protect them. So that in case that Germans, I mean, you had to account for all . Incase a German patrol boat would try to encroach on Swedish waters to catch a fleeing refugee boat the Swedes would simply intervene. But anyhow we went to the coast...

Q: Wait, where on the coast?

A: It was a place called Sletten, S-L-E-double T-E-N, which is not far away. I mean very close, it's fishing, to the museum of Catipriod(ph) called Louisiana. Then we went to the fisherman with whom we had stayed for years during our summer vacation, plus it was a rule that they sublet the houses to people from town, then they move into a house in the back yard, during these two months of summer vacation. And of course he knew us well and he offered us hospitality that we could have wanted because he didn't use a telephone. We believed that this

was real, this was for real, you didn't use a telephone, you didn't speak to any strangers, you're afraid of moving on the roads because you were afraid of ending up in the arms of German patrol, there were Germans all over the place, soldiers mainly. Only later we know that the army decided not to interfere, not to take part in the acts against the Jews. So the German army for its own reasons of interest did not allow for the Jews, wanted to protect the Jews, but simply for its own interests the German army only had one case that's known to have participated in this anti- Jewish action. This was left to the police and the, what do you call it, the visheyesteins(ph), the what the German counter intelligence, whatever it is the, Estit(ph), it's called Estit(ph). So the very fact that the army was all around didn't interfere. This we couldn't have known either. So we took hiding at this place and one night he had negotiated with another fisherman to take us across to Sweden. We were told that late at night to move across the coastal road and go down to the beach and wait under a small bridge to be picked up. We were standing there freezing, my parents, my father, my mother and my three sisters and brother and we heard the doc(ph), doc(ph), doc, doc [sound of approaching boat], of the fishing boat approaching the docks of course the lights are on us. I mean today we're sitting in a warm room, this thing 50 years behind us, it's difficult to imagine a family all on its own alone, without any protection standing on a small wooden bridge looking into the water waiting for the doc, doc, doc, doc to come to pick them up. But anyhow, the boat appears from the darkness and we are all already to jump at the boat and it simply passed by and it went to a bridge where another Jewish family was waiting and picked them up and off it went to Sweden. Of course we never learned what the reason was, maybe these people could have paid them more money, maybe it was a mistake. I don't know, but we were standing out there in the darkness without any alternative. So we returned to the fisherman and we really did not, my father was responsible for the family. These were times when the fathers felt responsible, he didn't know what to do, we all relied on the fisherman getting some kind of connection which we could use in order to get out. Another night we spent at a large white house with lots of other refugees sitting in the dark sitting room, living room and the specification, the student organization, while rowing us over, rowing, can you imagine,

maybe room for 2 or 3 people in these heavy wooden boats which they were taking from the fisherman, loaned from the fishermen rather. And I remember that when our turn came, the guy who was supposed to row us over, this would take hours, I mean you could go by quick boat for 30 minutes, but to be rowed over by one man that was very heavy(ph) going, two hours, and going for more than one trip was very difficult, but these were in the days that when the crisis was really on these were the nice ones that knew that the Jewish were looking for us...

Q: ...the Germans.

A: The Germans, sorry, the Germans were looking for us. People got scared, the Germans were looking for us. And suddenly the door opened, I remember this vividly because you are on the edge, you're on the way of getting out of this horrible thing. Then the guy, the student, who was supposed to take us came in and we saw that blood was running down his palms and he said to my parents so we had to go back to . Then the next day, suddenly the door bell rings, we of course are like mice scurrying around hiding. I remember one of my brother hide a my father had hidden under the bed. A very undignified situation today, it's very

hard to remember. You know, that parents at that time were, had different stature(ph) then they do today. For instance, in our dining room there was a father's chair and nobody would ever dream of sitting in father's chair even if he was away. Another thing that I remember so vividly is some very painful memory is that when we finally got on our way and found a reliable escape route it was the day after. We run through a forest at night, single file of course, the father in front. Suddenly my father slipped on a route or a branch and fell. This was the fall of, this was the fall, suddenly seeing your father in this, he was always in control, the provider, the protector, suddenly seeing him in a situation with this falling you know at the time when the whole family was relying on him, you know, this is something which still today can give me the creeps. But at any rate, the door bell rang and the fisherman went out to answer the door, because in those days if you didn't open the door, they would break in. At any rate, if you didn't open the door, as I said, they would break them in. So he went out and opening the door and a voice asked, as we heard from inside, "is the family Pundik here?" Of course the fisherman says, "no, no, no, I don't

know anything about Pundik, I haven't seen them since summer." My father recognized the voice and he took a chance and said, "yes we are." He took a chance because we were without and turned to chances. The guy comes in, another business friend of my fathers,

who by the way his son was collaborated with the German Nazis, a very strange situation. And this guy, by the way, he way limping, walking with a stick. He had walked from Elsenor(ph) along the coast knocking all doors available asking the same question, "have you seen the Pundik family?" He couldn't know if we had escaped already, but he simply, you know, that is the way that people had to act it was a moral imperative for them to act, so he did this impossible thing and found a needle in the haystack. He went along the coast asking, he knocked on the door where we were and happily my father recognized the voice and said that I'll come get you tonight when it is dark in a doctor's car, in a physician's car was permitted by the Germans to move around freely came and picked us up and took us to his home. A place called Ultzgolden(ph) which is about 15 kilometer north of Elsenor(ph). He lived in a house facing the coastal road which was facing the sea. And at night, the next day he negotiated a deal with the fisherman, at the night we were told to rush across the coastal road and go down to the sea. And there was a small rowboat waiting there for us, we jumped into the boat, there was a larger motor fishing boat waiting just a few hundred meters from the coast and we were rowed out to the fishing boat and I remember two things. I remember that I turned around and had a last look at Denmark and on the beach were kneeling with their hands raised in a kind of praying position were the fisherman's wife and the follow who had saved us, my father's business friend and his wife, they were believing(ph) people, praying. Another thing that I remember was maybe only that time I showed a knack for journalism, I looked at my watch the moment the motor started operating and we were heading for Swedish territory waters and I remember that it took us exactly 37 minutes to go from Denmark into safety to Swedish territory water. But some people, I want to conclude with a little anecdote, some people were not so lucky of course. One of my predecessors, is a chief of Puting(ph), was June(ph) Koppel, now I'll spell Koppel, K-0-double P- E-L and he was caught by the Germans while crossing the same coastal road. His wife who was

not Jewish got across and was down in the boat waiting for them, his two sons also, and he was caught by a Gestapo car headlights. Caught the moment that he tried to escape and they took him into the car and wrestled him and he was a fellow who was a off the Copenhagen . Even in difficult times, that while they were driving him off to Exenal(ph) to the

prison, to the arrest house in Exenal(ph) one German Gestapo man turned around and says, vense huden(ph), "are you Jewish?" and Mr. Koppel said, "yes, and you?" That's it.

Q: All right, go, I'll see you down there.

End of Tape 3.

Conclusion of Interview.