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ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Irving Schaffer deg October 19, 1993 IRVING SCHAFFER OCTOBER 19, 1993 Beginning Tape One, Side A

Q: -- Irving Schaffer. The interview is being conducted at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum on Tuesday, October 19, 1993, by Mira(ph) [indecipherable]. Mr. Schaffer, could you please tell us your name?

A: I am Irving Schaffer. I was born in Chust, Czechoslovakia. I lived with my three brothers, two sisters and with my parents. In general, we lived a peaceful life with good schools and universities.

Q: Were you the oldest in your family?

A: No, I have a -- I have -- I had an older brother, he's deceased now.

Q: What was his name?

A: Michael.

Q: And what were the names of your other siblings?

A: Oh, I had a -- ya -- Jacob -- Yankov and He-Herschel, the two sisters, Rachel and Bertha.

Q: And where were you born, what year were you born?

A: May 26, 1928.

Q: Could you tell us about your childhood?

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A: My childhood I could really sum up very little. I made a -- it wa -- it was all Jewish -- mostly Jewish education, going to service in the synagogue, studying in the evening, in the a -- in the afternoon, whenever, Sundays. So, I really didn't have too much fun to -- to be with other kids who are playing ball or having fun. It was all studying Jewish religion.

Q: Did you have any -- did you live in a small town or in a big town?

A: A big city.

Q: Mm-hm. Were there lots of Jews there?

A: Yes, we -- we had a lot -- lots of Jews, we had religious Jews, not -- conservative and also the non-Conservative, whatever they call them.

Q: Reform.

A: Reform, that's right, and we had Yeshivas in our -- in our -- Jewish Yeshivas. It was a bi -- nice, big city that it was -- it was real nice to be socializing with -- with your own people. I mean, you had everything you wanted.

Q: Tell us about your education.

A: I went to school, to public school til 1943. In 1943, the -- I was -- a-as an individual Jew I was always beaten up by the kids in s -- in the school, including the teacher. My history teacher, I remember in 1943, I came a little late to school, he was waiting for me outside the door at the -- outside the class door and -- and firmly Interview with Irving Schaffer deg October 19, 1993 pulled me in, in front of the kids, he went ahead and pu-punched me all over my face, in front of the kids. The kids were laughing, giggling, and I was -- I was hurting and they were enjoying it. That was number one. Then on the way going home from school, four kids attacked me not far from my home. They -- I fought back. I was bleeding. They punched me all over my face and kicked me. I fi-- fought back hard, but I couldn't -- I was outnumbered. I was bleeding, and not them.

Then -- that -- that was the end of my schools, I couldn't go any more to school because of that.

Q: How was your Jewish -- how would you describe your Jewish education? When did you go to cheder, or Jewish school?

A: I went to cheder and to ser -- to services til 1943, til things got really worse. In 1943 under the Nazis, things got miserable and it got worse all the time. As a Jew you weren't allowed to go out, only during the day and certain hours, and you had to wear a yellow star and a yellow armband. I remember we went to evening service, evening service with my father once and the two SS, the Hungarian Nazis came in and beat up all the Jews in there and everybody was running in different directions, but most of them escaped and -- and that was the end of the synagogues, we -- we couldn't go no more for services and there wasn't servi -- anyway, the end for my father and me. Th-They blocked off all the synagogues, we couldn't in -- all http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer deg October 19, 1993 businesses and properties were taken away from Jews. There was just no place that you -- you -- you felt safe.

Q: Did you know that there was a war going on in Europe at that time?

A: Yes, we did, but we didn't know too much about it because all we knew, we were -- first of all we had no communication with the outside world. Wi -- there wasn't telephones like you have here, that you could call up somebody and r-right away you'd tell them -- any place you moved, you had to have a pass and th-the police were patrolling everywhere, every di-- so often you would drive down someplace or walk down, you had to have a pass with you. And if you sh -- you were -- you were Jewish, right away you had to have a Jewish pass and that you're circumsi-cised, all that stuff had to be on it, on. So there -- there wasn't really too much we could do.

Q: When did you notice -- when did you realize that things were really getting bad?

Was it in 1943?

A: In 1943.

Q: Until then things were nice and pleasant?

A: It was -- it was pre -- pretty pleasant. We could feel the tension from the SS. We could st -- of the Nazis, we could feel the tension, but we were still in our own homes, we could still go out and do some shopping. You had to watch yourself Interview with Irving Schaffer " October 19, 1993

because you were beaten up or taken away the -- some of the Jews disappeared. But we --

Q: Did you know where they disappeared to?

A: No, no, probably got "em -- ki-killed them. Probably killed them.

Q: Mm-hm. When did the Germans come to Chust?

A: Oh, I don't remember exactly, but I-- 1 know they were -- they were there for quite awhile before 1943. And when they came in th-there were -- it's -- things just -- I can -- I can remember not only they take away the business and properties, they trained some of the young boys, like myself, I was 13 at that time, they trained us just like being in the army. But th -- we -- I called this the torture training. What they did, they -- we marched in step and if somebody ri -- step -- didn't -- wa-wasn't going -- marching the step, there's one Nazi who I knew my father -- 1 -- I knew very well because he lived across the street, his father owned a bar there, he lived across the street from my uncle's house. And his son was there, he was -- he was in charge, he was called an SS, you know, Nazi. And --

Q: Was he German, or --

A: No, Hungarian.

Q: [indecipherable] Hungarian.

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A: Hungarian, yeah. And he, if somebody didn't po -- go one step, he would go ahead and kick him with his boot, and I'm te -- the point on his boot, he had a piece of iron welded on, a pointed piece of iron, and when he kicked you, you -- I remember, he kicked me several times because I wasn't going in steps and I felt -- when he kicked me I f-- th-the pain was so miserable, so painful, I -- for years I was suffering with it, I remember it. And I couldn't do nothing because if I would have tried to hit him back or do something like that, I -- I -- probably would have been the end of me.

Q: So it was around 1942 that things got really bad, or before that?

A: It -- it started, it started to get bad at that time, but it wasn't really that bad, that -- we could still go out shopping and -- and do the things. We had to be very careful, but it's just like we live today in this country, I'1l tell you, I b-- you're afraid to walk the streets.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And it's not that the criminals and crooks are roaming the streets.

Q: And the anti-Semitism increased when the --

A: Yes.

Q: And before 1942 you did not experience --

A: Oh yes.

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Q: Oh, you did experience?

A: Oh yes, we had experience. There was a lot of anti-Semitism. Too many Jew ha -- Jew haters. That -- that was part of it that I don't know, somehow th-the parents taught the children to hate Jews, that the Jews were Christ killers and the Jews have got everything. The Jews have got -- are rich, which was not true, not all the Jews were rich.

Q: Did you come from a wealthy family?

A: No, I did not.

Q: So, you did not have any non-Jewish friends?

A: [had a --a few of them. I had a few who lived in my neighborhood, I -- we lived in a-- in a--in a neighborhood with -- which was maybe 40 percent Jewish and 60 percent non-Jewish. But everybody lived in peace, we -- my mother had a friend across the street, she was a Hungarian woman, she had two sons, and she would come on Saturdays, turn on the stove for us for Shabbat, because -- and then she did a lot of things that we weren't allowed to do. She was so nice, we would give her stuff for that, you know, in return. My mother used to be close friends with her, but when the time came, during the Nazi regime, they -- they were afraid to ta-- even talk to us. They were afraid to say anything because th -- if you -- if we comu -- communicated with it -- with -- with them, with a non-Jew, we probably -- they http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer " October 19, 1993 probably would lock them up too, because they were not allowed to do that no more. They were even -- th-the goyim, the non-Jews were afraid to communicate.

Q: So you came from a religious family.

A: Yes.

Q: From an Orthodox family.

A: Correct.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Yes.

Q: How old were you when -- when the war broke?

A: The br -- war broke out?

Q: Broke out, yeah.

A: My God, I cannot go back. I don't even know what -- which year the bro -- the war broke out because we didn't feel it that much, we -- we didn't know what was going on.

Q: So it was really only in what, "42, that --

A: deg42 - deg43, something like that. Maybe -- I think Hitler occupied Czechoslo -- part of Czechoslovakia in 1941 and I don't know the -- when the next time he ch -- occupied. But we had si -- before the Nazis took it over, we had Ukraines took it over. There -- there was two or three different groups, they took it over, we had to http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer " October 19, 1993 learn different languages. Then the Hungarian took it over and they were -- they were really in charge because they were -- they were working together with -- with the Germans. I remember in -- my father, who we -- we got milk from an lo -- next door neighbor for many years, and when, in 1943 we weren -- we weren't allowed to do that, but we did it anyway because we had to go just to the next door neighbor, who broo -- took off a couple boards from our backyard fence and we went through.

But we had, across the street there were two sisters and a brother who lived th -- a-at --at--and they -- they could see us from the second floor that we were getting milk from our next door neighbor. They reported my father to the police. They picked up my pro -- the police picked up my father and they took him j -- to jail. M-My mother was hoping that they're not going to beat him u-up, you know, they're just going to take him to jail. But after two weeks he came back, he came back with his black eyes, his whole face was just black. They beat him up all the time and -- and his beard was chopped up to pieces. So that -- that was one and it's -- it -- it was so many --I mean, it's hard to believe what was going on. These thing you could see, things are just coming to a point where people were afraid -- we were, as a Jew was afraid if -- they were afraid to go out on the street. Everyone taken, just grabbed from the street and taken away someplace, you disappeared or -- nobody knew where you le -- where -- where -- where you went.

Interview with Irving Schaffer @ October 19, 1993

Q: When were you required to wear a Jewish star? Was it during that time?

A: Yes, during that time. We -- 1943, we had to wear a yellow star or yellow armband if we went out to the shopping, or -- or go food shopping or go anyplace, we had to wear that star. Also, in --I think I've -- I've mentioned about this trainer who trained Jewish boys, that Nazi would train Jewish boys. We -- we had to -- not only did he kick us for -- when we -- wh-when we went in -- in steps, but he also wi -- made us climb a ladder that was about three feet low from the top to get up on the --on top of a barn. We had to climb up there on top and we -- in order to reach it, we had to go pull ourselves up. And order -- if we came down, we didn't catch the ladder, we would step on it and we would just go back down on our back and the ladder would fall on our back, on stones on the bottom and it was hell.

Q: Was that in school, that --

A: No, that was on th -- on -- on a field -- football field that we -- we had that training. There was no school in there. That was away from everything.

Q: How come you were part of that group?

A: Because they ti-- picked up all the th -- they got orders, all the Jewish boys from a certain age, you've got -- you gotta come to Leventher(ph) they called it.

Leventher(ph), Leventher(ph) that -- I don't know that's Hungarian.

Q: Uh-huh.

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Irving Schaffer 8 October 19, 1993

A: Yeah. And tha-that's what they called the -- they asked all the -- those Jewish boys should meet at this and this place. So I met them. My brother was already in the la -- at la -- in the labor camp at that time. My father was also in the labor camp for six months.

Q: Tell us about -- about your father and brother being sent to labor camp. When did that happen?

A: That also happened sometimes at the end of fo -- 1943. My father was drafted first t-to the ar -- to the labor army, labor camp, to -- to labor work. Before that he served two or three years, he fought on the battlefields. He had guns and rifles with him, he -- he fought like a soldier.

Q: For who?

A: For -- for the enemy, whoever the enemy was. I don't know who they fought. I wasn't maybe on the --

Q: On the -- on the side of whom did you fight?

A: I don't -- I don't know. I -- tho-those days I don't know. That wasn't during the -- during the Nazi occupation, no. But that was before sometimes he may have war -- fought for -- with the Russians or Ukrainians, I have got no idea, but I was too young to know about that. But what happened is, he fought before he would -- he was -- he was in the army. He got a rifle and ammunition, he fought like a soldier.

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Irving Schaffer " October 19, 1993 Because he was Jewish, they put him to work cutting down -- they gave him an axe and a saw and he was cutting down trees, chopping them up and so on.

Q: When was that?

A: That was in 1940 -- end of 1943.

Q: And your brother, too?

A: And my brother went also in 1944, the beginning of 1940 -- he was drafted and we heard from him only once. My mother sent him some baked cookies and it was returned to -- they couldn't find him no more, he was gone. So --

Q: When was the last time you saw your brother?

A: The last time I've seen him -- you mean bef-- 1944? The -- before, oh about four or five weeks before Pesach. And Pesach came -- we -- we had -- first day of Pesach was April -- April 1944. Table was set, everything was there except my brother Michael and all my whole family was together, except my brother Michael.

Q: And your father was with you then?

A: He was with me, yeah.

Q: Was he back from the labor camp?

A: Yes.

Q: Mm-hm.

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A: He was back from the labor camp, and he -- oh yeah, that -- w-we -- the table was set, we were [indecipherable] the best food was set up on the table. All the family was sitting, my two sisters, three brothers and my parents were all sitting at the table and when my father started to make kiddush, he cried. He said, he would cr -- he -- he -- in the middle of the kiddush he broke down and cried. He said these words, he says, who knows whether we will be together again next year. We cried with him, as children, you know, and my -- my older sister tried to c-calm us down, but we cried just like after a funeral. It was a very sad Pesach. The next day we were taken from -- we -- two SS -- Hungarian s -- Nazis came and gave us orders that we have to -- we must be out of the house by -- it was in two hours. That's -- something like that, or less. They were waiting outside. We packed up everything as soon as we could, you know, and my m-- we wen -- went -- they took us at -- at gunpoint, they took us to the ghetto.

Q: And was the ghetto in Chust?

A: Yes, the ghetto was in Chust. They blocked off a few, two or three streets. We had a synagogue in there, we were blocked off, and a tomatorah(ph). And they packed in everybody as much as they could without food, water, or toilet facilities. I remember I was inside, there wasn't even an-any room to sit. They selected a few -- http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer 6 October 19, 1993 th-th-they selected two leaders, two well reputable Jewish leaders in the -- in th -- from the Jewish community to run the -- the ghetto.

Q: Do you remember their names?

A: Ramel(ph) Moskov(ph), but I don't remember the other one. Moskov(ph) was one of them.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And they were in charge how to run the ghetto. We -- they selected some running boys. They selected running boys for -- to, you know, take messa -- like for instance, mine -- my job was, as a running boy, a few running boys, we got passes that we could go out 24 hours a day.

Q: So you were a messenger.

A: A messenger, yeah. My -- my job was, as a messenger, to take messages to the sergeant who was in charge. Anything that came in and it went out, he had to sign it. And every time I would -- needed something to sign, I had to run to the -- to two bars, wa -- he was in one of the two bars. Sometimes so drunk he di -- ji -- didn't even look at a paper, he just signed it.

Q: So in other words, the day after Passover, you had to pack your suitcases and move to the ghetto.

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A: Whatever we could get, that's right. Mo-Move at gunpoint, we got to go to ba -- ghetto, that's correct.

Q: Could you tell us about the conditions in the ghetto?

A: Yes. The conditions in the ghetto was, everybody was sitting with a little bundle, whatever they took along, on the floor. Leaning over next to one another, there wasn't even any sitting room in the rooms. And with no water, no toilet facilities, only i-- what the synagogue had and there was outside one only. Then the rest of it, the food, which was available, we, the messengers got okay from the sergeant that we can go to different Jewish homes and pick up all the good e -- good stuff, like they had stuff in jars, you know, with the -- for the -- for the living. So we picked up all that stuff from home, brought it over to the ghetto. That's only thing that we had to eat. Then also, some of the ink -- all -- all -- people in the -- in the ghetto, including my father, beca -- sat down with me and they told me e -- that I am -- I can go out 24 hours a day, I've got the pass. N-Next -- around the corner the -- from the building, from the synagogue, there is a-- a -- there was a Jewish store by the go -- non-Jew took it over. And it's a grocery store and he gets some breads every day, I don't know how many, 15 - 20 loaf, whatever. If -- they asked me I should ask him if they co -- would sell some bread f-for us and we'll pay the price, there's no problem for money. I talked to the -- to owner, he okayed it. I used to get from him six, eight Interview with Irving Schaffer a October 19, 1993

loaves of breads and I would put them under my jacket on both sides and wait for the -- for the guards to turn their faces away. And some of us knew already -- somebody knew that I'm gonna come there with the breads to the window and they saw me coming, they opened up the window fast, and I just threw it in one, two, three and I took off. We have been done -- we have done that every single day. We had to -- we had to gamble with our lives because that was part of survival.

Whatever we could get in, the little babies and children could at least eat. And then Lalso --

Q: Did people work while they were living in the ghetto?

A: No, no. No work. You weren't allowed to go no place, only inside, whatever, there was nothing to do, you were -- there was [indecipherable]

Q: How many people did they put in that ghetto?

A: Oh gosh, I would say there were several hundred in there. They would -- they had different places, two ghettoes, you know. A little further up, oh about 10 - 15 blocks, they had another section you had some more ghetto -- another ghetto. But that was small places, you know, they put them together in the th -- independent on the neighborhoods.

Q: Mm-hm. And how long did you stay in that ghetto?

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A: Oh, stayed there for about three weeks, and in the meantime, while I was -- while I was in th -- in the -- whi-while I had the 24 hours pass, I -- I was taking food to two girls, and th-they were locked up in jail because they were -- their parents were born in a--in Czechoslovakia. They were Czechs -- Czechs sa -- citizens. The girls were born in Hungary, because the parents lived in Hungary for awhile, and that's where those two 16 years old girl were born. They were locked up because they didn't -- they were not citizens of -- of -- of Czechoslovakia. I do --

Q: Was it Czechoslovakia or Hungary at that time?

A: At tha -- that time was Hungary.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: A Hungarian occupation, yeah, was occupied by Hungary. And I used to take them to the jail some food from the ghetto. There were times I had to wait, cause I ha -- was sitting on a bench waiting for the guards to open up the ga -- the -- the -- the jail. And one day while I was sitting on the bench, I saw two S -- two Nazis brought in a young Jewish fellow with payos and -- and black -- a black robe and hat, and they marched him with their bayonets, they kept on poking him in the back to go upstairs to the second floor. It didn't take more than 20 seconds, he was running in st -- he jumped over th-the -- the railing and he fell on the concrete floor right next to me. He sp -- I got sprayed -- I got sprayed with blood all over my clothes and face. I http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer *deg October 19, 1993 was -- I found out the reason why he killed himself. They gave him the firing squad because he was not a citizen of Czechoslovakia, he was from Hungary.

Munkash(ph). So the-then also --

Q: But it was under Hungarian rule at the time.

A: Yeah, but he was not a citizen, he was a Munkash(ph). I-It was -- you see, a lot of them would escape from one place to another. Czechoslovakia was occupied so much, and then the hu-- Hungary was o -- wa -- had the other part. But some of -- later on the Hungarians just moved in, collaborated with visis -- an -- with the SS, with the Germans. But it was still part -- was Hungary and part of was Czechoslovakia at that time. Then things changed again, Ukraines took it over. It was a mess, mess up. I also took some food.

Q: That was while you were in the ghetto when you took the food [indecipherable]

A: That's correct. Nobody could go out, only unless you had a pass. Then I also carried some food to a synagogue where some professionals were locked up. One day I came to -- brought some food to them and I knocked on the door in the synagogue, to the wooden doors and two SS came out -- I mean two Nazis came out to the door with their rifles and bayonets and pointing at me he says, go away, don't come back any more. They says, no more food, no more food, don't come back.

While the door was open, I saw a string of bodies hanging upside down on their feet http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer " October 19, 1993 -- from their feet from the ceiling. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. That was the last time I went there. Then --

Q: Were you with your family together at that time?

A: Yes. Yes, yes, my family was there together but I was -- I was most of the time in and out because of messages and the -- thing -- things like that.

Q: But education was disrupted?

A: Oh definitely, completely out. No education, nothing.

Q: All right. What happened to your father's business?

A: It was gone. It wa -- who -- everybody's business properties were taken away.

Everybody's.

Q: And you said you stayed in the ghetto for?

A: About three weeks.

Q: Three weeks, and --

A: After three weeks they killed the two ghetto leaders. We heard that two days before we were -- that they killed the ghetto leaders, that we were going to be going to -- to the railroad station. The reason why they killed them, so they don't talk, because they knew what's going to be next.

Q: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

Interview with Irving Schaffer " October 19, 1993

A: And they marched out at gunpoint to the ghetto -- I mean, from the ghetto to the railroad station. Young and old alike walked. Disabled were holding on to one each other, little children. We came to the railroad station and we -- they packed us in -- in all -- it -- boxcars, without food or water, and we took off to -- not knowing where.

We never knew where we were going. We'd -- we were riding for a couple nights or so and then we came to a place, suddenly it was er -- early in the morning, it was still dark outside and suddenly the -- the train was dynamited.

Q: Oh.

A: We didn't -- we d-- we -- first everybody got scared because that was shaking the whole thing, so where everybody the doors you could open up a little bit and look out. I remember we -- my father opened up a little bit the door and we could see or hear that par -- they'd holler, partisan, partisan, Yiddisha(ph) partisana(ph).

Yiddisha(ph) partisana(ph) they said. Spring, jump, jump, kill -- save yourself, jump, jump, save yourself. A lot of them started to jump all over. And you could see the fires going, the shooting there that's going on. I guess the SS were --

Q: So the train stopped? The train stopped at [indecipherable]

A: This train, oh yeah, that was out of commission, yeah --

Q: Uh-huh.

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Q: -- because it got blowed -- blown up and i-it-- you couldn't go over the tracks, the tracks were blown apart. So they -- they -- so a lot of them jumped, I wanted to jump too, my -- my mother said, Itzhak, you're going to get killed if you jump. Don't -- don't go, don't go. You know how mother is, I -- anyway, they -- a lot of them jumped, then we -- they closed the -- about three -- we were sitting there s -- waiting for the train for about three hours. After that we took off. We arrived to Auschwitz death camp.

Q: Okay, let me ask you something. How many people were on each train, do you remember?

A: I--we never counted it. I don't even know how many cars were there. All I know is we -- our, my car I was in, what was loaded sitting, we were in sitting position in the car, but I -- that was loaded, it was full.

Q: And no food, no water?

A: No food, no water, no toilet facilities.

Q: No-

A: Nothing.

Q: -- toilet facilities, water --

A: That's correct.

Q: How many people did managed to escape when the train was bombed?

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Interview with Irving Schaffer 4 October 19, 1993

A: Oh, I-I--I have got no idea, but I know there -- that -- I could see through the open little door, I was just sneaking out my head, I could see the jumping, jumping constantly, running the -- in -- there was bushes like, and they were -- just kept on [indecipherable] the partisans, jump, run this way. You could hear them in Yi- Yiddish, they kept on telling I-loyf(ph) this way. And then they were hap -- there was a fire go -- there were shootings about 10 minutes, shootings were going on and that was the end, everything got quiet. Then we stayed there til they repaired the railroad tracks, and we took off. After we got to -- we came early in the morning to Auschwitz.

Q: Could you describe what happened when you arrived in Auschwitz?

A: Yes. When we arrived to Auschwitz it was dark, pitch dark, there was no lights.

Q: And that was when, about May?

A: That was in April 1944, or maybe the beginning of May, I [indecipherable] three weeks later. April, it could have been in May, too, I cannot recall. I know it was after Pesach. And wh-wh-when we arrived there, there was no lights, no place we could -- I could see big chimneys firing up, you could see spitting fire from the chimneys, real tall chimneys, heavy smoke, and the smell was awful. You could smell like burning flesh, but I-- we never thought that -- that would be Jewish flesh.

And we waited there for awhile in the cars and all of a sudden the lights went on. It ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Irving Schaffer 8 October 19, 1993 lit up like during the day. Every -- all the lights were shining on the car, on the train, on the freight train. And the SS, the Nazis were hollering, raus, raus, raus.

Everybody was jumping out of the -- little kids and families, everybody was -- the babies are crying, and their whole -- everybody is trying to haul out one another and they're pushing and shoving in the direction toward Dr. Mengele. Fina -- did everybody got there, you know, and they're ga -- Dr. Mengele was selecting who should live, who should die. All th-the young chi--

Q: What happened as soon as you got off the train when you got to Auschwitz? Did you stay with your family at that point?

A: Yes, yes, we stayed til the -- til the lights went on and they opened up th-the -- the door -- the doors from the tra -- from the boxcars.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Yes.

Q: And what happened then, after you got off the train?

A: After we got off the train, they were shoving and pushing everybody towards Dr.

Mengele, in one direction. Dr. Mengele was selecting wi-- he was standing there with a big aton and he was selecting who should live, who should die. All the young children, families, mother, pregnant women, older people, disabled people http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer *deg October 19, 1993 were the first one to ge -- to go, they just took them directly straight in the gas chamber.

Q: Directly from the train?

A: From the train. In fact, some of the -- there was two Jews who were hollering at a --at us, he says, say it's -- save your lives, give up your children. Give to the kinder, he hollered, give to the kinder, give up your children and you're gonna live. Maybe you're gonna live, you're gonna -- but don't kee -- hold your children, your babies, because you're not going to -- you're going to die with them. They were hollering in you -- in jew -- Jewish, because not to | -- not to hold, not to go with the children. So they -- they went anyway, the majority of went with them anyway.

Q: What happened to you at that time?

A: To me? I went -- when Dr. Mengele was selecting who should live or should die, I was, before I separated from my family and ma -- all my family, three brothers, two sisters went up to the right, and my parents. And before we -- when we separated, my father and I hugged and he told me, he said, Itzhak, be strong, don't give up, and we will meet again. Those were his words, and I -- it stuck in my mind.

Then I was sent to the left, which from the left were -- the people who were able to work were sent to the left.

Q: Mm-hm. What about your brothers?

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer u October 19, 1993

A: My brothers went to the right. Wa -- one of my younger brothers, Yankov(ph) was sent to the left with me. He ran back with -- to be with the family. He just came over and snuck through to the right. He wanted to be with the family. He didn't want to--

Q: So your mother, your father, your sisters and your brother went to one side?

A: That's correct, yes.

Q: And -- mm-hm.

A: Yes. Then I -- I w-went to the left and we marched out -- they marched us through to go down to -- to the shower room. As we walked through the shower room, I saw dozens of barrels of filling -- gold fillings, silvers, were took -- taken out. Gold teeth, glasses -- I mean glasses, by the hundreds of barrels filled up, tall ones. And all those people went to the gas chamber, were taken off all the stuff from them. Then we came into the shower, we -- we dix -- took off -- cut off our hair, the women's hair too [indecipherable] and they gave us striped -- blue striped, blue white striped uniforms, and a number. You're gonna be -- live -- you -- this is gon -- you're gonna live by that number. You have got no name, you have got no origin, all you have is a number. My number was 88959. And we -- that number we -- we lived --

Q: But it was not tattooed on your arm?

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer 8 October 19, 1993

A: No, because they came in too many at one time in th-those transports, and they just had to ship them out, so wherever they could, they get -- got them out. In the me --I-I guess they were losing the war, too, Germany, and the bombed -- the bombed areas everywhere. They -- they needed to clean up and it -- to fix things. So they --

Q: What happened to the stuff that you brought with you from the ghetto?

A: Th-They were t -- it was all taken away at Auschwitz. Every little thing they stripped you of, even -- even your -- everything, even your hair they cut off, whatever you had left. Everything.

Q: What happened to your parents and your brothers and sisters? Did -- did you -- did you ever find out?

A: They went to the g -- the g -- all Is -- I've never heard from them, that was the last time I've her --

Q: [indecipherable]

A: -- that ter -- was the last time I've heard from them, except one sister which I've -- after I got into the barrack, the older one, Bertha, I -- I have -- someone told me she is there, I'll tell you in a minute. So after we got -- after we got the uniforms on, we were marched towards one of the barracks, not knowing where we were going.

There was bunker, triple bunkers that we could -- you could -- you -- you were there with -- without a pillow, without a pillow and you were just i-in a sitting, half a Interview with Irving Schaffer " October 19, 1993

dozen guys in one little corner and sticking out your head. While I was waiting there, someone told me from -- who was from my city that my older sister was waving, she wants to say hello to me. I didn't even know that she was up there. So I went -- I went outside, and [indecipherable] going out and the prisoners are hollering at me, says don't go to -- with the [indecipherable] you -- they are going to kill you, don't go, don't go. They kept on begging me don't go. I just kept on going without thinking. I just kept on going. I came to the door and I open up the door, nobody's out there and I see a -- a young girl. There was a 10 foot tall electrified wire. And one of the girls, a young girl maybe about 12 - 14 years old was sitting in there, it was so -- probably electrocuted -- she was electrocuted, she was all t-tangled up like -- like a--a snake. And I waved -- I saw my sister in the big window, she was up on a hill. And I waved to her, she was off her -- cut her hair off, she had nothing on, it was -- looked terrible. I waved to her and she waved to me and all of a sudden I got hit with a lead pipe on the right side of my head. My skull was cracked in here. I got ou -- I was bleeding like a to -- you turn on a water faucet.

And I da -- da -- I was -- I staggered to th -- my bunk, I turned around, I staggered to my bunk. And while I -- I was going, I pushed in my end of my uniform from my -- from my -- that blue striped uniform, I pushed it in to stop the bleeding. I finally got to my bunk bed and I got in there. And I was lucky, the next day those people who Interview with Irving Schaffer *deg October 19, 1993

were like me, they -- they knocked off and they put them in the gas chamber. They just didn't -- whatever they could get, they would kill people, no matter what -- a lead pipe th-th -- killed one, two, three people. So I came into the -- I went to the barrack at -- luckily, next day, or a couple days later, I was shipped to the Warsaw th -- ghetto. The Warsaw bomb ghetto.

Q: So how long were you in Auschwitz?

A: In Auschwitz? A few days, a few days.

Q: Just a few days?

A: Just a few days. We didn't have no food, nothing, we were just waiting, not knowing what we're -- where we were going. We were all isolated in the barrack, we didn't know where we were going.

Q: So that was around April --

A: Sometimes April or May, I--I---

Q: -- April, May 1944.

A: Yes.

Q: So after a few days they sent you to Warsaw?

A: That's correct, yes.

Q: Did they tell you where you were going?

A: No, no.

Interview with Irving Schaffer * October 19, 1993

Q: Could you tell us about that?

A: Yes, I'll be glad to. We arrived to Auschwitz -- I mean to, excuse me, we arrived to Warsaw and they had built cement block -- cement blocks bara -- barracks. The barracks had bunkers and we -- we had one blanket to -- for each prisoner. We used to pray whenever we could, in the evening especially after work, we would [indecipherable]. And we -- while we were praying, we had one or two of the boys, Jewish boys, watching in case the kapo, which was a killer, would -- if-- he hated -- he would kill the prisoners or do harm to him no matter whether he -- they did something or not -- we did something wrong or not. One day we were standing the Amidah and all of us jumped in a bed, we kept on orlay(ph), orlay(ph), we'd -- we'd t-tell him to r-run. This older man in there, maybe about 55, he was standing o-on the -- on the -- he was st -- he was standing on the wall, and he was shockling(ph) -- you know, he was -- he was standing the Amidah. We told him to -- to move, he wouldn't move, because the Torah says you're not allowed to move your feet when you stand the Amidah. So the kapo comes and puts in his brass knuckles and gets ahold on the man in the back while he was still standing the Amidah and turns him around and punches him in the face with the nu -- brass knuckles. He threw him against the cement block and as he bounced -- the head bounced back, he was punc -- re-punching him again. Constantly his eyes were http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer % October 19, 1993 black, his face was chopped up like a hamburger, you couldn't recognize the face.

He just kept on beating him, he had big [indecipherable] he just kept on pounding him. He had a -- his fa -- that -- that man had a 16 years old son, his son was watching how his father got killed like that. And there was nothing we could do, because the minute you made a move, you w -- all of us were gone. They had -- Jewish life would -- didn't mean anything.

Q: Were there any people from Chust in Warsaw?

A: Yes, yes, oh yes. There were -- there were quite a few of them in there. I don't know how many survived. I knew one of them who lives -- a Solomon(ph) who lives in New York, but he was an older man, maybe he's -- he's in the ground by now. That's why I'm trying to tell my testimony about my experience in ge -- in the Holocaust, because the time is running out for me too. I don't know how long I'm gonna be here and the world must know what wi -- how six million died and how much suffering they -- they endured. Well, while we worked -- while we were i-in the Warsaw bomb ghetto, we -- we --

Q: Did you know about the Warsaw uprising, or not?

A: No. No, we didn't know nothing.

Q: But when you got there, did you find -- http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer %8 October 19, 1993

A: We found out, that's correct, we found out what we are doing there because it's -- that si -- the big sign said Warsaw whatever, I forgot the name, but it was a big sign, big sign, it said Warsaw ghetto, or whatever. Then we worked in there to clean up the ghetto and whatever usable items w-we found, we shipped it to Germany to be reused. We cleaned up the bricks from the bombed a-area and they sh-shipped it to Germany to u -- to use it for s -- b-building other ammunition factories, whatever.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: While we worked there we found pots and pans. We found dead -- skeletons, older people and they're with their beards still on. With the sheitel, some of the women with the sheitels were hanging next -- were right next to them and they're just like you -- they just took it off. We -- once we found six skeletons, young children huddled together. We -- there -- it was so unbelievable that they were -- it could have been a family, although some of these children tried to survive, they held together for their -- during the bombing or they just starved like that. They -- they -- I remember we used to take off their shinbones and -- and we used to guess how old these children were. I've got now a grandson, and you know, ke-keep on looking at his shinbone here -- about a year and a half old -- and I keep on looking at the shinbones and I said, my God, th-that-that -- that's pretty close what I've seen http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer * October 19, 1993 when we -- th-there must have been some -- sometimes about a year or so, all those kids. And we used to -- one day at work --

Q: What sort of work did you do apart from just cleaning the --

A: Cleaning the bricks and -- and moving dirt. Dump -- pour -- throwing it from one prisoner to another, to a -- to a cart that the ge -- Polish people came in and took it to the railroad. And we would throw it down from the top of -- of a hill, like from the bombed parts, maybe make a -- a chain and we throw it one -- for one another, til it go-got to the cart, to -- with the horse and buggy, yeah.

Q: Were you organized? Was there some kind of organization from the Jewish prisoners?

A: N-No, no.

Q: Nobody was a leader, or --

A: You're not -- you wouldn't allowed to have -- be a leader, because the minute they heard you were a leader, you were dead. We did it between ourselves. We talked our language, sometimes Hebrew, the different words so they don't understand, like orlay(ph). We -- the -- somebody -- the kapo would come or -- or some SS, we -- it's orlay(ph) orlay(ph) orlay(ph), that means keep on moving, moving, you know, or -- or some other words we used to use, I forgot already. But we -- on the way -- one day -- Interview with Irving Schaffer 8 October 19, 1993

Q: Can you describe a typical day in the ghetto?

A: In the ghetto?

Q: A typical day, yeah, what time did you get up in the morning?

A: Oh yeah, w-we got up in the m -- in the morning we used to get up around 4:30.

We have black coffee and a piece of bread, cornbread and we marched through the -- most of the time we marched through the forest so nobody could see us. And we came -- we came -- it took us about a half an hour to get to march there, to -- to the bomb ghetto. Once we were there, everybody was at sh -- working in different th- things. There were so many things going on that -- End of Tape One, Side A

Beginning Tape One, Side B

Q: -- that you would get up at four in the morning and he came into the workplace.

A: That's right, yeah. And once on the way going to work, we wo -- sometimes, once or twice a week, we would see German trucks loaded with partisans. How we knew they were partisans, while we were marching si -- the back cover opened up from the wind, it would just open up, I could see them. They were blindfolded with black rags, their eyes and tied up in the back. I remember seeing some of the faces, you know, turning; they heard the marching, you know, the noises from marching.

They turned towards us, and I said to myself, God, I wish, oh, I wish I could help http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer deg October 19, 1993 you. I don't know -- I-- I--I---I felt so bad. I wish I could have gone over and just blown out the whole thing with them so th-they wouldn't take them. And then they would take them to -- to the -- to a place which was right in our -- on the ou-outside of the -- from our camp where we -- where w -- and -- and there was a slaughterhouse. They put up a cement block outsi-- you know, it's -- was outside, but a --a wall, four walls. And they would take in those prisoners, I mean, the partisans, shoot them out. In the evening you'd hear the machine guns going for 10 - 15 minutes. They -- they wou -- in fact, when we used to -- sometimes when it rained and the ground was wet, and we walked in their direction, my wooden shoes had a line, like red -- red ink -- red -- red -- red paint, but it was blood. The blood was -- was soaked over the ground in there, they used to kill so many of them.

Q: And you were taken at four in the morning to work and then --

A: We quit around f-- when -- later in the evening, about eight, 10 hours sometimes.

It depends -- I forgot already, but I know usually eight, 10 hours a day we [indecipherable]. When it start to get dark, we w -- took off, all the time.

Q: Were you given some food at lunchtime?

A: No. No food.

Q: Only breakfast?

Interview with Irving Schaffer " October 19, 1993

A: No, only bre -- wa -- only thing you took along with you, if you had a piece of bread -- I remember I used to take along a piece of bread in my pocket, sew it in because there was no pockets and save it. When I was ready to -- to faint from hunger, I would take a little crumb and put it on my tongue and just keep on sucking on it to keep me alive. And you know, one day, there was one a -- one interesting i- i-incident. I -- I was walking, you know, I was like in an -- in an area where I -- I was digging up bricks to be cleaned up. And all of a sudden I got hit on my ankle with a piece of brick. And I turned around -- that hurted -- I turned around and I look around, I didn't see nobody. I said oh, forget it, maybe somebody just in a joke did something. Then suddenly I see little pebbles flying around me and I got hit again in my foot, a little higher. I turned around, I said to myself, oh boy, that -- I got to find out who that is. I turned around and I see somebody sticking -- somebody was sticking out the -- the head from under the rubble, just enough to see his head. He had black hair on and he was pointing with his finger to -- to follow him, to ca -- to go -- to escape. Now, I made two steps and I suddenly jumped back, I said to myself, oh my God, I remember I got beaten up by a -- the lead pipe. I cannot take that pain no more. I'm still hurting from it, I'm still in pain. And I didn -- wouldn't go, but he was trying to ma -- make me escape. A lot of the prisoners escaped.

Q: Uh-huh.

ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Irving Schaffer 8 October 19, 1993

A: But tha -- tha -- they escape and probably they caught them, because they kept on killing them all the time. Yes, so then, from there I had the -- the Russians started t- to -- we -- di--- oh yeah, you used to get so many of the partisans, so many captured of the partisans that they decided to build a crematorium, a small one. First we thought it's going to be a bakery. We were waiting and waiting, we were asking -- I know the people who bou -- built it were Katz(ph), they lived in my city. A young son and a fath -- it's a father and son. We're waiting for it to be finished, and here -- everybody's talking a bakery, a bakery, what else could it be? He finally was finished and it was a -- before we were supposed to be liquidating the camp, and w- we found out it was a small crematorium. It looked like a--a bakery. They killed the father and son first, they bur-burned them, they were the first ones to burn. We, at two -- two days later the commanding officer told us that we're going to go -- we're going to liquidate the camp, and --

Q: Do you remember the name of the commander of that camp?

A: No, no, I cannot remember. My head were blank after that, I got hit with a lead pipe and I had -- from hunger and thirst we were just -- you couldn't think straight.

Okay, where was I?

Q: Yeah, before you had to liquidate the camp.

Interview with Irving Schaffer *deg October 19, 1993

A: Oh yeah, before we -- before we -- yeah, he -- the -- th-the commanding officer told us that we're going to liquidate the camp next day. The next day came, they asked all those prisoners who cannot walk will go by truck, about a hundred of them, moved out, they marched them straight to the slaughterhouse, and we -- while we were standing in role call, they were -- we could hear the machine guns going that killed them all. They hung six prisoners on wooden poles, and they'd sa -- th- the commanding officer said, the reason why they're -- that we hung them is because they de -- tried to escape yesterday. We found out this -- this is go -- going to be a-- called Warsaw death march.

Q: What -- when was the -- I mean, how long --

A: In aug --

Q: -- were you in the -- in the -- in Warsaw?

A: I-In August i-- we started out in August sometimes, that i-- one thing I -- I will -- somehow somebody told us that, one of the SS, what month it is in. August -- sometimes beginning of August. It was boiling hot outside, the sun was baking us.

Q: So [indecipherable] 1944.

A: 1944. That's go --

Q: So you were there for how long? Two months?

A: Abou -- ab -- yeah, about two, three --

Interview with Irving Schaffer "" October 19, 1993

Q: Three -- two, three months?

A: -- two, three months, because -- that's right. I cannot really tell the time because [indecipherable]

Q: Right.

A: We marched day and night without food or water. Our lips were black like coal from the hydra --

Q: How many people were marching?

A: Oh, there was -- must have been -- when we got there from Auschwitz, we were about 1100. I don't know how -- after all the killings and so on, maybe about seven, eight hundred, we march --

Q: That started marching towards [indecipherable]

A: Yeah, marching, yeah, right. Without food or water, in the sun.

Q: And that was because the Russians were coming?

A: Yeah, the Russians were -- started to move in, they were -- they were shelling the area and they -- they were gonna -- they're getting closer and they were -- liquidated the camp. So we -- we were marching day and night without food or water and some of the prisoners co -- collapsed. They would pick them up, put them in carts and put them in -- then on trucks and ship them to Dachau. Or we buried them off the road.

I remember where I buried three bodies, three corpse, off the road near a bridge. We http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer * October 19, 1993 put them on top one another, we dug deep enough to -- just to put in the bodies on top one another. One was still alive on top on -- he was begging us, please [speaks foreign language here] he says [speaks foreign language]. I'm still living. Why are you trying to kill me? Why are you two bur -- why are you burying me alive? He was stretching out a hand to us, and the SS kept on hollering. He says, cover him up, cover him up. We covered him up, we had to take off. We marched again. They had -- their fa -- con -- I mean, the -- the -- th-the-the prisoners are just falling like -- it's unbelievable, they're just collapsing from -- from hunger and thirst and dehydration. You can survive a lot longer from not eating food, but if you don't have any water -- try to go for water in the sun all day long, marching, without the hat, nothing, just in your uniform. We came to a place near -- near a bridge in the -- some of the prisoners tried to escape. They jumped over the bridge, tried to escape or to get -- to get some water. They send in the German Shepherds after them, and they -- after the germ -- th-the shepherds found them, they went ahead and used the machine gun, boom, boom, boom, they killed them in there. Then we -- we used to get -- one day it was raining hard and we were told to go into a forest. We went into that forest and we slept on the ground without coverage, we didn't have nothing, just our uniform. But, I mean it's th-the -- typhus developed and they were dying all over.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer % October 19, 1993

Q: How many days did you march, do you know?

A: Gosh, I don't remember. I don't know, maybe four or five days, I don't remember. I've got no idea, just kept on -- it was just -- I was in another world, I didn't even know. When we stopped at that place, we were -- some of the prisoners were digging with their spoons. We very seldom had spoons, we ate by the -- our hands. I don't know where they got the spoons, but they were digging the ground, where there's -- th-the ground, there wasn't too far away from a lake. And we heard sometimes after midnight a huge roar, water, water, everybody's running towards water, water, water. I came over to that place too, with the other prisoners and I see everybody's grabbing handsful, it -- from the ground it's coming up water about -- oh, about two, three feet, it's jumping up, pop-popping up. I remember everybody was grabbing [indecipherable] the bottom had --

Q: They were digging with their spoons to find water?

A: To find water, yes, and they found it, came up enough. The-They -- and suddenly everybody knew about it, the prisoners knew about it and they ran for water. Wi -- I remember grabbing hands full of water with sand and stones and just shoving it into my throat, swallowing, choking myself on the stones. I couldn't even -- you know, it's hard to believe that -- that -- we -- we were crazy, we didn't know, we were out of our minds. We didn't know from life or death, we didn't know what -- who we http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer 8 October 19, 1993 are or where -- what we are. We were just oh, completely out. We were -- we were -- something that it's hard to believe that a human being can -- can survive something like that.

Q: And you finally arrived in Dachau?

A: No, next day we took -- marched again.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: We finally arrived to a place where we were waiting for a train. It was called Kutno. Kutno at the -- at the German Polish border. German -- Kutno at the German Polish border, yeah. And we were waiting there for a train to arrive to take us someplace. It was pouring, it was raining hard. First when we got there, we stripped all the bark from the trees. Anything that was available, branches, we just ate. Grass, whatever we can get ahold on, anything. We were starved, we didn't have nothing to --

Q: How many days did you march to -- to get to Kutno?

A: Oh, I have got no idea. Four or five days, I can't -- don't remember.

Q: And all that time without food?

A: Without food, without water, skeletons were walking.

Q: Oh my -- http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection 44 Interview with Irving Schaffer October 19, 1993

A: Skeletons were walking. There was nothing -- black lips, with -- with dying there's no breathe -- you can't hardly breathe, you're so weak. And we -- we waited in that forest, it was pouring and we were -- were in the mud. We were trying to huddle together so we can get our body temperature warm from one another. That's only heat we had and the prisoners were starting to die from typhus and all the temperature, they had high temperatures from being sick, and they were dying like f -- by the dozens. We could not bury them fast enough. Finally, two days later a train arrived, a freight train arrived. They packed in in the boxcars a hundred or more people in one boxcar. I remember we were standing like this, in the upright position like sn -- stacked herring. There was no air, no water, no food.

Q: No sanitation.

A: No sanitation. They boarded up the little windows from outside, what the freight gets. There was -- it was choking inside. We were tearing our heads apart, we were trying to kill ourselves, but we couldn't. We were tearing our eyes out, we were ki -- pounding on our heads. We ti-- we couldn't -- we wanted to die, but there was no way then there, we couldn't even take a little step to get a -- to do something, to -- to kill ourselves. They just kept on falling and dying, from the weakness some of them collapsed, then the al -- the smell was awful. And we started to get more room once some of them passed out or just -- just couldn't do any more, couldn't get it -- go on Interview with Irving Schaffer * October 19, 1993

any more. We finally arrived to Dachau death camp. I remember seven of us were moved out -- were -- were -- came out from that freight car. The rest of them were half dead or dead, from the 110. We gets -- as we came down, there was six feet of a drop. The SS kept on sh -- pulling us, you know, gra -- grabbing us with the rifle butts, hitting us and he -- come on, come on [indecipherable] you, and I remember they grabbed me from -- they grabbed me fr -- with one hand, and I fell on my left shoulder upside down, because the six foot drop. And I couldn't move, I kept on crawling, they kept on pounding on my back with the rifle butts. And just [speaks foreign language]. And th --I kept on running. I kept on getting up and kept on going up. I didn't want to die ab -- I always remember what my father told me at the Auschwitz, be strong, don't give up, we will meet again. I just kept on going. We finally came into the -- inside the Dachau entrance on the -- it was cement floor. I remember seeing dozens of skeletons, their eyes in, you know, you could hardly see like eyeballs where goo -- they were just sunk in. And these skeletons, all in black lips, all they were moaning and moaning and moan -- I remember I ca -- I fell o--I collapsed on my knees and I passed out, and there I fell asleep. When I woke up I suddenly remembered, oh I mi---I got to meet my father again, I better be --I got to be stronger, I got to keep on going. I got up and moved around a little bit, here and there, and I don't know, I -- all of a sudden, I dr -- don't remember any more to --

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer %deg October 19, 1993 what happened in Dachau, I wounded up in Landsberg lager s -- lager seven, camp seven. And that is where I was put on on a night shift to work at Miihldorf, that night shift to -- to build the ammunition factory. We'd [indecipherable] we -- we set a foundation, the foundation there. We used to work 10 -- 10 hours a day. It was hard work. I remember one day one of the prisoners collapsed on the ramp with his sack of cement. The SS ran over -- two SS ran over and pounded on his head with his rifle butt. And then they -- they asked for -- for the prisoners to help him put on this sandbag. I went ose -- I was one of them, too, I went over and helped to put it up, and he couldn't get up, he couldn't get up. They went ahead and asked some of the prisoners to take him upstairs and put him in the cement mixer. They put in his head in the cement mixer, and then they took him out, took him back to the -- to the camp, to Dachau. But they just -- just told him to put him in in there to grind him around a little bit. Then wa -- there was a German -- there was a German who used -- what do you call these big machines? The cranes. He was digging ground in there, and he used to bake potatoes inside that -- they -- they used to have coal in there, he used to bake potatoes. He would always have a full loaded oven with potatoes. And we -- if we get a chance, we ran over to him, he would give us four or five potatoes.

It was like a steak, it was great. Hot, it was just burning, it was just beautiful. He told me once, he says, if they catch me, I hope the SS don't report me to -- to the -- http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer " October 19, 1993 the higher authority, otherwise I'm no -- I'm going to be punished. But the -- a lot of the SS knew about it, they saw us doing it, you know, they saw what we're doing.

There was a -- on the also, ag -- not far away was a-- was a garden of vegetables and so on. I remember we ran over there, break through the wire and we stole that. We kept on eating it while we were there. The minute we brought it in to -- to the other prisoners, it was gone. In a minute, it was -- it was gone, they tore at you, they kill you for a piece of bread. So then, from there I was very weak and I said to myself, I got to ta-- I'm -- I'm never going to survive. I've got no energy and I cannot carry that cement. And I see where also some of the weak guy -- people, they bring them in from work, put them in a death barrack. Still alive. No doctors, no nothing, no medicines. You -- you cannot work, or your -- something happens to you, there's the death barrack, that's your medicine, death. Death. I decided --

Q: They didn't kill them there, they just let them die?

A: Let them die. Let them die.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: That's exactly what happened. So one day I came home from -- from work and one of my friends told me that a friend of mine I used to work with together, you know, we -- some of the times we used to -- he is -- th-they put him in the death barrack. I was anxious to find out who he is. They took me there to him and he -- I http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer %8 October 19, 1993 saw, oh maybe about 40 or 50 bodies. He was hanging with his head down and actually li -- looking at us that he is still alive. He was -- he was upside-down like this. We couldn't go too close because it was typhus in there. Everywhere you went in was a dangers you would pick up something. But I went away brokenhearted and I said to myself, I -- that could be me next. I was -- I was ready to cry and then I said to myself, oh no I better don't cry, I may be here tomorrow. I decided that I'm going to steal some potatoes. It wasn't too far away from a bunker, because I ca --I didn't want to die, I wanted to live. One morning I went to the bunker. I tied up my pajamas, my -- my -- my uniform on the bottom and I went in the bunker, I filled up my pants full of potatoes. Some other p-prisoners encouraged me to do it too because they were going to give me a piece of bread and they were going to buy some butter for that. So I--

Q: Oh, you were bartering the -- bartering the food that you got? You would exchange the potatoes for some [indecipherable]

A: Potatoes for something else, yeah, like a piece of bread, or -- or piece of bread or butter, whatever it is. Sometimes they will bring in some smuggling, something from outside, a candy or whatever. A cigarette. And I filled it up and all of a sudden I hear hoo, hoo, the sirens are going. I said, oh my God, this is the second siren already, I didn't hear the first one. I must have been busy du -- doing business in ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Irving Schaffer deg October 19, 1993 there big -- I was a big businessman trying to figure out how much -- how much ""m going to sell th-the potatoes for bread. And su-suddenly I -- I started to run towards my barrack. I said, oh my God, this is the second one. Here, I wouldn't give up the potatoes, I'm -- this is my life. I wouldn't give it up in ci-- to let go the potatoes, I k --Ik---held them in my -- in my pants. I ran towards my barrack and I hear the lager -- th-the commander is asking to go back in the barracks all the -- all the Lagerfuhrers, all the -- should go back in the -- in the barracks and find the prisoner, dead or alive. I knew they were talking about me, so I kept on running towards my barrack. While they went inside, I kept on running to my -- towards my barrack. I came to my barrack all out of breath, and we -- my feet are just co -- loaded, you know, I cannot even run, but I'm -- I'm robbing the potatoes, so I'm looking like this, loaded. And I se -- run into the second row and I'm standing, you know, attention. Everybody came out, the commander officer a-asked, count the men again, in your barrack. They counted, everybody was there. The commanding officer says, who just came in? Was quiet. He started with again -- who just came in? The prisoner next to me pointed a finger at me. Well, they -- they saw my pants loaded, they got ahold of me, took me in into a small [indecipherable] they asked -- the officer asked one of the kapos in there, Killer, who used to be good doing the punishment, torturing. They got ahold of me, took me into a small locker room, on a http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer *deg October 19, 1993 heavy piece of wood, put me on there, tied up my hands in a bracket o-over my head, and my knees to a bracket. [indecipherable] I remember he kept on pounding on me with some kind of a heavy piece of wood, or a two by four. I remember screaming. I remember screaming, and that's about all. I don't remember any more.

I woke up -- I woke up in a-- in a doghouse. I was -- I woke up in a doghouse. I was crammed in with two other prisoners, one was dead and one was moaning. I don't know how many days I was in there, because I was out, passed out. And one of the officers was -- was inspecting -- one of the officers was inspecting th-th-the -- the camp and he came -- when he went by there, he heard the moaning, he asked, who is in there, to open up. He saw us in there, gave him one look with my eyes can hardly open up, he says, let the ma -- let the prisoners loose. I don't know, first time, you know, so that they carried me in. I don't know wi -- the other prisoners, what they did with them, but they carried me into my barrack. I couldn't walk because my back was all messed up. And the reason why they did that, because the officer gave the orders. Otherwise so they would put me in the ba -- in the death barrack. They took me into the barrack and they told me I've got two days to recuperate and I have to go to work. In the meantime I asked for -- from the Lagerfuhrers -- I mean, the camp I-leader for some food. He said, I'll give you some food. Did you get your -- your piece of bread every day, and you know, at night time soup? I said, no, I Interview with Irving Schaffer * October 19, 1993

didn't get nothing. I didn't get since I was there. He says, you were there eight days and y-you didn't get nothing? He says, go to the shl -- Lagerschreiber. The Lagerschreiber was the accountant who let in-- who ope -- when you opened up the gate, he counted the people coming in and going out. He made sure that everybody -- that's whats the -- the -- the Schreiber, the Lagerschreiber. And he -- he told me to ask -- he gave me my -- my bread, everything, I should go and ask him for it. I went over and asked him for it, he came downstairs from his -- from his booth upstairs and he came over and I told him what my barrack leader said. He got ahold of me like this, gave me a bloody mouth. I came back with a bleeding mouth.

I went back and told -- I told th-the -- the lead -- the ba -- barrack leader what -- what I got. He says, well I don't know what -- what to tell you, but I'Il try to help you. Pll give you some of the barrels to lick out after -- they were wooden barrels of soup.

After everybody has the soup, I'll give you to lick out the barrels. So I remember for a couple of days I kept on licking out the barrels. Spin -- spin of -- some of the wood would come off, you know, splinters, and I would just eat it like bread, I -- like food, I didn't even -- I just swallowed everything what came in. And I got --

Q: How come you didn't get your normal rationing?

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer * October 19, 1993

A: Because he ate -- he sold it for -- for cigarettes, the guy up on th-the scharl -- Lagerschreiber. He did something with it. He -- be -- maybe he ate it, he sold it for cigarettes.

Q: So how long were you in --

A: Landsberg?

Q: Landsberg, yeah.

A: Yeah, okay. From there I was -- I was told that I have ki -- if I cannot go to work, some of the prisoners told me, if I go on a pa -- role call, to stand straight, because they're -- they're expecting -- a couple days later, that one of the days they're expecting a health inspector. So, I was standing straight, but of -- of course, I couldn't move my arm, I was sideways. And I was worried that if they get -- the inspector sees me, I'm going to -- either he's going to say I'm not -- no more good to work, they're going to put me into the death barrack. But luckily there was no inspection that day. But they asked for volunteers. They asked for volunteers and we went to dig trenches for -- for the German SS in the forest. We fixed the streets and so on.

Q: In Landsberg?

A: In la-- in Landsberg. Then we -- they asked -- the next day they asked again for volunteers, something else. I always hope there's going to be better days. If I http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer * October 19, 1993 volunteer maybe I'll get a better treatment or more food. I always hope for better, but I-- I always gambled, and I was never -- never had any luck. This time we -- they took a transport, oh about, I -- I -- two, three truckloads. And we -- they took us to Landshut camp. Landshut camp was a -- a German ammunition place, they storage ammunition. They emptied out a few of the blocks -- a few of the barracks they emptied out and they put in some of the prisoners in air -- he -- in case the American bombs -- bombers bombed that area, they blow up, we're going to get blown up in it too. In the meantime, the SS were there with their ammunition and we were there working also. We were at there, or we were at work. So we were taking by truck to a railroad s-sta -- we were taking by trucks, not knowing where we were gonna go.

Here we're traveling through the forest --

Q: That was from Landsberg to --

A: To Landshut. It's a Landshut camp, yeah. It wasn't too far away, but it's called Landshut camp. Then we went down to, by truck, two truckloads went down to -- through the forest, we didn't know where we were going. We asked the -- the SS, where are we -- where are you taking us? They didn't say where, they said, it's none of your business. So we just -- we were quiet and we were -- th-they didn't hear a whisper. We go through different dark places and here is -- we were just shooking up, with -- they're probably going to kill us someplace. We came a little closer, we http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer "4 October 19, 1993 see smoke going up. Uh-oh, there is the chimneys and there's -- there is another place where they kill people. We finally came, after 45 minutes or so, we ca -- finally came to a place where there was -- you could see civilians, homes, displayed stores. My God, we felt the -- already relieved, oh, they're not going to kill us, we -- there's something different here, w-we -- we see it -- I haven't seen a-- a woman for -- for over a year. And here is a-- I am staring at them, it's a ma -- it's a pleasure.

Then suddenly we're cross -- crossing over railroad tracks and we are -- as we crawled over railroad tracks we see smoke coming up. Right away we thought, well, th-this is something different. We're probably going to work here because they bombed -- th-the trains are all bombed all over, smashed up railroad tracks. As we walked -- we got out from the trucks. We walked towards the direction of where that bombing was. We saw aftr -- a freight car opened up, one of the boxcars, spilled out white powder. We didn't know what it was at that time. But we walked in that direction, and it was smoldering, that white powder. Then suddenly one of the guys, some of the guys started to smell like -- they said it -- they said it's burning sugar.

Just like that, they se -- they said burning sugar. And there all of us, all the prisoners just started to run on that direction. We were falling on our faces. We kept on running and running and running. And we got there and sure enough, it was sugar.

We kept on grabbing in handfuls hot sugar. I remember grabbing hands, boiling http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer *deg October 19, 1993 sugar, we just kept on shoving it in. My mouth was burning and my hands were peeling off, I just kept on shoving it in, and the SS were pounding on our heads with their -- their rifle butts because we were eating the sugar. This time at least --

Q: What exactly happened? You were taken to Landshut camp to work, and there was a bombing --

A: Yes.

Q: -- that bombed that train and --

A: That's right, they needed to clean up, they needed work.

Q: Ah, I see.

A: Yeah.

Q: They needed to clean up that --

A: Sure.

Q: -- that [indecipherable]

A: That's where they always used us, for places where they needed work, slavery.

Q: And that's where you -- you got the sugar.

A: That's right, we got the sugar, it felt so great. Even so, the -- the par -- the SS were pounding on our heads. Th-Th-Th -- most of the time they pe -- beat us for nothing. This time they beat us, at least we enjoyed something. So it felt good, but http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer *deg October 19, 1993 then we worked there, you know, tur-turning over th-the railroad cars and cleaning up the mess. Then we went back there again, and we worked on the railroad tracks.

Q: And where did you sleep in -- at night?

A: At night we went back to the camp.

Q: To Landshut?

A: To -- to Landshut camp, yes, Landshut camp.

Q: Uh-huh. How far was that from Landsberg?

A: Oh, about an hour drive.

Q: An hour.

A: Ab-About an hour drive from there.

Q: So how long were you in Landsberg?

A: In Landsberg, about th-three, four weeks.

Q: Three, four weeks.

A: That's all.

Q: And in Landshut?

A: Landshut? Oh, I don't know, the -- Landshut, it was very short time, maybe about three weeks, because th-th -- let me just ke -- go back again --

Q: Sure.

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer *7 October 19, 1993

A: -- because that's something interesting. One day while we were working, the sirens were going, the American bombers came. They ri -- the SS told us to run and the soldier ran -- ru-run into the forest. We ran into the forest, a few minutes later we see the American bombers diving. We could see the bombs falling and we are so happy we are gonna be free by the Americans. We didn't even know who the Americans were, but we were -- we were happy about it. Then there was another time we came out to work, this same thing happened, the American bombers are again there. This time they're blowing up the railroad tracks. Everywhere you go they're blowing the -- everything is on fire. You don't see a soul no place. After it was first finished, it was quieted down, some of the prisoners started to walk around as, you know, walked around to see what's happening. As we walked through -- we came over a-- we walked over a railroad bridge, and on the left hand side there was about 24 small planes. The American bombers -- we still watched how the American bombers were using that 44 machine gun, I don't know what they call it, but they were machine gunning the -- th-the gas tanks and blowing up all the -- all -- all those planes. I would -- kept on watching them, how they were blowing up like --

Q: Which planes, the German planes?

A: The German planes, they were popping up like -- like popcorn, they were just blown up right after one another.

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer "8 October 19, 1993

Q: What time of year was it, do you remember?

A: It was sometimes in April?

Q: 745?

A: Yeah, "45, April "45. And then we went back to our truck, our truck was blown up to pieces. Our truck wasn't there, so we didn't know what to do. A lot of the prisoners escaped. I was afraid to make the escape, I could have escaped too, but I was afraid. I was afraid because of being beaten and I couldn't take no more pain, because I still felt the pain in my head from the lead pipe and beating all the time at work. So I was afraid, I didn't want -- want to gamble. We finally got a truck, we came back. Here we -- we are going -- the next day we went out to work to build agai -- to dig again branches for the German soldiers. We are not getting any more food, it's already three or four days, we're not getting no food, we didn't go to work no place. We see the Germans are removing out their ammunition, we watch -- were watching them taking it out.

Q: So there was no supervision any more --

A: N-N -- oh yes, the commanding officer wasn't there, no, the commanding officer wasn't there, but he was still in charge. When we went out -- when we went out to -- to dig the trenches, he would come out with his motorcycle to inspect. He would bring along a 15 foot white, long whip like you train animals and he would whip us http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer ~" October 19, 1993 from -- from far away he would flip -- whip us. But I-- I-- I remember I couldn't work too much because of my shoulder and I kept on -- the minute I saw the -- the whip coming, I bent down and you know, I felt sorry for the taller prisoner who got hit. But he would just take it out on the prisoners because they were losing the war.

After awhile -- nek -- it would -- didn't take too long, we see the bombs are flying, it di -- it lights up the skies, artillery, it's going crazy. It -- suddenly, we were ordered next day to march to the railroad station. We came to the railroad station --

Q: The railroad station in [indecipherable]

A: Y-Y-Yes, Landshut's rail station. They loaded us in in -- in boxcars. We didn't know where we were going. They closed up the doors. We are -- as we made -- we came -- we dro -- traveled about 25 minutes, the train stopped again to let go by a German train loaded with ammunition and -- and artillery, everything is loaded. You could see their -- their faces are sad, they -- they -- they know that s-something's wrong and they don't like to go the -- those places. But the -- one of the locomotive at that station went in to got some water. After he left, I was a may -- maybe about a one of -- and a half car away from -- from that spout, and there was another sp -- prisoner also with me. And I --I said to myself, boy it would be nice if I could go over and take a bath inside the tank, or just take a good drink of water. So after he left, [ran over and that other guy, the other prisoner ran over too, were holding up http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer degdeg October 19, 1993 our ma -- hands to the drip, the drips were coming in. And it felt so good to have a couple drops of water, it felt great. And the SS were chasing us back to our -- to our freight car -- to our cars. So I didn't -- but our guard was helpful. Then we took off again. We k-kept on going for maybe another 35 -- 40 minutes on the train and suddenly we are sh -- moved in, and the train made a sudden stop. We didn't know what happened, whether it was a -- just everybody was falling on top of another.

Before it if --if--in a few seconds later we hear the bombers are diving in, bombing our train. The American bombed our train by mistake. They knocked out lik -- locomotives, a lot of the pers -- a lot of casualties were there. And after the first time, they came back the second time, some of the prisoners threw their stripe uniforms on top of the -- of the -- of the boxcars. When they came back they turned around and took off.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: But the -- we found out that one of the trains, German trains that was chasing a German art-artillery train and he -- they went by and they got us by mistake. That's what we were told. But anyway --

Q: Did you try to run away during that time?

A: Well, no, I didn't, but maybe somebody else did. I was afraid. I was afraid because I wanted to come back alive, I-- my father's -- I wanted to see my father http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer *" October 19, 1993 again and I had also hope that some of my family would sur -- survived. We took o -- tha-that train was out of commission, we couldn't go no place. Everything was a -- had a -- we were just waiting. The SS didn't know what to do with -- with us. The commanding officer is gone. We were just sitting in front of the freight cars and talking. It came later in the afternoon, the SS commander -- officer comes to me, he says [indecipherable] boutonniere and with his [indecipherable] in his hand, and he said -- oh, no, the SS hollered, oh, everybody I -- in attention. Everybody th -- is at -- is at attention, and we're shaking from fear because he would only come when -- when there are bad times, when something -- somebody did something wrong or he's going to do something bad. He says, you are a-all liberated, you are free to do wherever you want. Oh my God, are you sure? You heed a -- he-heard wa -- you heard a you sure and everybody started to run over the railroad tracks, and wheat field, corn field. I remember running with a few other prisoners over the railroad tracks and we ran into wheat fields and cornfields and while we're running, I see some other ama -- prisoners who are running with me are falling down. I said run, run [indecipherable], but they -- they didn't get up, another fell, another one fell.

And ga -- they didn't get up. I just kept on running, I said to myself, maybe they're weak, they cannot get up. I kept on running. I saw a sign while I was running, I saw a sign [indecipherable] and then I saw a big building in there. I ran towards the http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer * October 19, 1993 direction. I came in to -- toward that building, there was a little delicatessen in there.

I ran in the side of delicatessen, the owner over the counter got ahold four slices of white bread and gave it to me. I squashed it together like a -- like a piece of ball and I just shoved it down, I could hardly swallow it, but I -- it went down.

Q: You were still with your prisoners uniform?

A: Oh yes, prisoner's uniform, yes a -- my skin was coming off for -- from dirt. We never got a-- took a shower or anything. There wasn't enough water to drink. Lice crawling on -- on our lower -- black, everything was black. So he -- he -- he gave me another tats -- he turned around and gave me another one. Two guys are sipping their coffee and talking and they're looking at me like a -- somebody -- a wild animal walked in in here, th-th-th-they couldn't see me --

Q: They were German?

A: Germans, yeah. So all of a sudden I hear ooh hoo, ooh hoo, the ger -- th-th-the sou -- the si-sirens are going. So suddenly th-the he -- the German over the counter says, laufen zie(ph) he says, run into the barn an-and cover yourself up with straw.

The two men got up from the -- from the -- who were sipping coffee and came outside and showed me which way to go, that was about 150 feet away. I ran -- and ran inside fast, cover myself up with hay. It didn't take more than a few seconds, I hear [speaks German] Come on out or I'II kill you.

Interview with Irving Schaffer *8 October 19, 1993

Q: Mm-hm.

A: It was quiet. He started over again [speaks German] and somebody sneezed.

There were -- he asked for one of the SS to go over in that direction, pound with a hay fork, he telled, take that hay fork and go ahead, pound in that area. They hit a -- another prisoner with the hay fork.

Q: Oh yeah, there were more than one people hiding there?

A: No, I didn't know at that time.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Yeah, I didn't know, it was just -- there was -- I was -- I was there just because they told me to. So they pounded in that area there and -- and I heard a real loud scream. And then I jumped up, and I saw another je -- prisoner jumped up. We went outside with a ho -- handle -- hi -- hand up, the SS is right behind our back with their bayonets, and we marched out the door. I see outside the door there's a Jeep and the commanding officer motorcycle. When we came out fro-from the barn, I saw a -- the -- th-the commander's officer motorcycle was in th -- in the driveway and a Jeep. The commanding officer gave orders for the two SS to go back to their post, and while he was talking to them, the-the -- one of the -- the prisoner who was with me, helding his head up high, he started to run. The SS officer grabbed his gun and shot him maybe about 10 feet away from -- from him. And then he -- after the two ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Irving Schaffer 4 October 19, 1993 SS left on a motorc -- on -- on -- on their Jeep, he sat down on this motorcycle, took his gun in the left hand and he hollered at me, he says, run. [speaks German]. He says, run. If you cannot run I'm going to kill you. I started to run and run -- ran. I was weak, I couldn't run, I kept on beg -- I kept on falling. He coo -- he would cock his gun, I ta--I begged him please, I have to meet my father again, I cannot die yet.

He s -- kept on running, I ke -- I kept on falling and getting up and he kept on cocking his gun. I-I wouldn't give up, I kept on fighting to stay alive, begging him while I was out a -- with -- without a breath. I-- I couldn't keep up with his motorcycle, but he just kept on pushing me and -- and then he stops and cocks his gun ready to fire at my head and I just kept get up and kept on going again. We finally came to the same place where we had the liberation, that was the first -- the place where we had -- we got our freedom. They had --

Q: In other words, the place where that German officer originally told you -- gave you your freedom?

A: That's correct. The same tr -- bombed train. And a -- he turned me over to two SS. They kept on pounding in my back with bayonets and I just kept on going [indecipherable] End of Tape One, Side B Interview with Irving Schaffer degdeg October 19, 1993 Beginning Tape Two, Side A

A: -- two SS and you know, po-poking me in the back with their rifle -- with their bayonets and wa -- in the direction of the freight cars. As I got closer I tried to get in --in some of the freight cars, but I was -- it was too high up, six feet high, and I couldn't reach it. So I kept on going closer, where they were slaughtering the prisoners, they were clubbing them and -- to death with their rifle butts and bayonets. I remember I came close by to -- to the area, I was climbing on top of the wo-wounded and -- and dead prisoners and I finally got up on top, I got hit with -- with the rifle butts several times and I got knocked out my jaw and my teeth were knocked out. And I finally got in inside the car and once I got into the car I saw several si-- prisoners in there laying with their bashed in eyes, their faces were all crushed, noses were all broken up. Their head -- some of them, the -- the brains were -- their brains were hanging out just like you're squeezing out from an orange. They were laying outside o-on the -- on the fo -- wooden floor in the -- in the freight car. I passed out there and I don't know what ha -- what happened after that. I woke up in a Hitler youth hospital, and I was in a coma. The Americans liberated me and I weighed 65 pounds. I got --

Q: You didn't remember how you got to the hospital?

A: No, not at all. I don't remember nothing. After I got into the car, I just -- 66 Interview with Irving Schaffer October 19, 1993

Q: You passed out.

A: I got passed out wi--

Q: But when you go -- woke up in the hospital, there were Americans around you?

A: No, German. There were German -- German nurses took care of me, German doctors. There was no Americans inside, the Americans --

Q: But that was after the war was --

A: After it was over.

Q: After the war was over.

A: I--I didn't know the war was over.

Q: Ah.

A: I didn't even know the war was over. I just --

Q: You know approximately what time of year it was?

A: I--I guess it must have been sometimes in May. We never knew the dates or time, we never were any use, we didn't know nothing what going on in this world, we -- we were all isolated. All we knew is torture, slavery, that's we -- we -- we -- we knew how to live.

Q: So when you woke up in the hospital, it was all over.

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Irving Schaffer *" October 19, 1993

A: It wa -- it was all over, I got -- I was bandage up and my mouth was bandage up and I ha -- I was under -- I wa -- I was fed with a tube er -- what kind of feeding, you -- how you -- what do you call it?

Q: Intravenous?

A: Intravenous feeding, and I don't know how long I was up in there, but the story goes on, I have -- there -- I -- on -- I-I -- all I-- all I want to say at this time --

Q: No, no, no, tell us what happened after you got better.

A: After I got better?

Q: How long were you in the hospital?

A: Ah, I was in the hospital probably about three weeks and I am -- my mouth was all bandaged up.

Q: And afterwards?

A: |--afterwards I --I got permission to go out, I couldn't eat, I had to eat only the liquids, because I couldn't eat anything, my mou -- my jaws were broken and my teeth were knocked out. And I -- after about three weeks, I got permission to go out, to walk, to go out for -- for the day and come back in the evening. I -- once I got from the -- from the doctor -- I asked do-doctor, how much longer am I gonna have to have on the -- the bandage on my mouth. He said it wouldn't be long, but in the meantime he gave me s -- to take along, he gave me a bottle of vitamins and he told Interview with Irving Schaffer degdeg October 19, 1993

me to take -- to take it the next mo -- br -- morning, I should take it three times a day.

So came next morning I took a walk and I kept on tasting the vitamins that were -- I didn't know they were vitamins, I thought they were candy. I just kept on popping them in, popping them in, they tasted so good and I started to get energy. I finished them all in one time, all hundred I finished all at one time. And I felt great, I mean, I felt good. Came in the evening I went back to the -- to the doc -- to the nurse and I -- she asked me how was your -- how do you feel now? I said, oh I feel a lot better after eating that candy, it was d-- it was delicious, I would like to have some more.

She says, oh leiber(ph) God, she says, oh my God, she says, you shouldn't have done that, they -- you're supposed to have -- take only three a day. [indecipherable] I thought it was candy, I didn't know vi-- nobody told me what a vitamin is, I didn't know from that stuff. So the next day the doctor saw me again, I a-- I asked him for some more of the vitamins. I told him I felt a lot better from it, and he says, oh we ran out of, we don't have them no more. And he says, we'll take out the bandage tomorrow. Well, we took out the bandage, then we walked around. The first thing I did, I went to look for -- for somebody in my family, if they survived. I -- all I knew, everybody --

Q: Where did you go to look for them?

Interview with Irving Schaffer degdeg October 19, 1993

A: I--I na--in--in--- they -- they had organizations like the UNRRA and Joint -- what is the -- the Joint Distribution Committee.

Q: Okay, what town was that?

A: In Germany where -- near [indecipherable] let's see, that was in Feldamfing(ph), but we --

Q: Feldan --

A: Feldamfing(ph). Tha -- where I was liberated, that was -- that was a small town.

Q: That was where the hospital was?

A: That's where the hospital was, and that's where th-the Americans took me and then we were -- walked around, you know, we wen -- went --

Q: So in Felda -- how do you spell it?

A: Feldamfing(ph). F -- like feld, f-e-I-d.

Q: Yeah.

A: F-i-n-k. A --

Q: So, in Feldanfink(ph) there were -- there were -- there was UNRRA and other organizations?

A: Yi---no, there were -- they were in Munich.

Q: Uh-huh.

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A: In Munich, which it wa -- wasn't too far away. But I started to ask around where -- where I could get some -- to find out if anybody of my family was alive.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And I knew that last time -- a-all my family went except my older brother was still living and it -- I didn't know he was in the labor camp, and my sister I saw last at -- when I waved to her and I got hit with a lead pipe in Auschwitz. So I was hoping both these two had survived, but u-unfortunately no matter how much I tried, I did not -- I did not find my sister, but I, after awhile, investigating and chasing around, I found out that my brother, my older brother was captured in the Russian prison, survived and he is waiting for me in Czechoslovakia, Chust. So, when I told that to some my friends in there, they told me not to go because I'll never come back again, because Russia wouldn't let you out. You'll -- you'll be able to get in, but not to -- you" ll not be able to get out. I said to myself, I went through hell in the concentration camps, I was locked up, I wasn't allowed to go, I was -- no place, I was guarded every minute with -- by the SS with rifles, and then I was starving. Today, thanks God I am not starving and I had -- I --- I -- I --I cannot do that, I got to meet my brother. So I just went ahead and tried to make an [indecipherable] but the worst part of all was that we had to -- we -- the transportation was terrible.

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Q: Mm-hm.

A: So we had to wait. So I-- when I started out, I finally got a pass with my picture that I can travel, or -- to -- to Russia. And I traveled through fr -- two freight trains and then -- then other trains and they were loaded. Some people were returning and soldiers from the army, they were all broken up too, and they were lonely, lost from the world. I -- I finally made it to -- to Czechoslovakia.

Q: You got back to Chust?

A: To Chust, I finally made it to Chust.

Q: Did you meet -- did you find any members of your family there?

A: No. I might -- I was waiting for my brother, I was supposed to meet my brother, my brother ta -- wrote -- left me a message that he's gonna be back in two days, he's outta -- he went -- had to leave out of town, I guess for business already. So he -- I waited there. In the meantime I went back to see our home. The home was there, but all -- I went back to the Jewish neighborhoods, there's nobody there, everything --there's no more minyan, there's no more -- nobody's around no more, you don't see any children laughing outside, everything is dead. The sh -- Jewish store there was once, it was all gone. The je -- the Jewish children, parents, mothers, fathers and --and grandparents who walked once to shul with their children in the kaftenshtramla(ph) with the -- all dressed up on Shabbas, they're no more. You Interview with Irving Schaffer " October 19, 1993

can't find no more a minyan. So then I decided -- I used to work after school, I used to work for one of the spiritus(ph) store. I used to fill bottles for -- this was in alcohol, the rubbing alcohol.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And this one guy, was a heavy, tall-set guy and he -- he -- he was a Russian. He had a Hungarian wife. With him I could get along, he was pretty le -- easy -- easygoing. His wife was a real anti-Semite. She was a Hungarian but she hated Jews. I had nothing to do with her. But I -- I-- I decided -- I knew where he lived, I decided Pll wait for him near a bridge. He usually walked, because he never drove, he was too heavy to get into a car. He never drove a car, never knew how to drive.

So I waited for him at a bridge, and I got closer to him as I'm coming, I'd smile [speaks foreign language] and he was an -- he gar -- grabs his -- he was going with a cane, he grabs his cane and swung it at me. He says, you dirty Jew, get away from here. Well, he was ready to kill me, you could see that face, he was -- you dirty Jew, get away from here. I wa -- I started to cry, I was -- I couldn't believe what this guy called me and how ma -- how -- how he changed overnight, how -- what happened to this guy? The hatred in him. He had a friend, a teacher by the name Mandbattel(ph), he used to come over -- he used to -- he -- he used to come over after school and spend time with him drinking what kind, having good times, Interview with Irving Schaffer (r) October 19, 1993

laughing. And I thought he's -- he's a mensch, but it turned out to be that he tur -- he changed unbelievable. So I finally went -- looked for a place where to sleep and someone told me where the survivors are meeting, so I went to that hotel and I was tra -- hoping my brother is going to show up. A couple days later I met some of the people in there, but most of them were s -- from small towns. There were two or three from my city, but most of them were from small towns who survived. And finally my brother came a couple days later and we went -- we decided -- we heard that we must leave Czechoslovakia because the Russians are closing the borders.

So we had to hurry up and get out from there.

Q: What time of year was that?

A: Oh, it was sometimes in -- oh, maybe 1946 and di -- probably --

Q: Oh, so it was quite like six months after you were liberated.

A: Yeah, oh yeah, i-it was after that, yeah.

Q: It was a long time.

A: Sometimes in 1946. It may have been in the fall. I forgot already, I--I don't know exactly, but it was in 1946.

Q: Mm-hm. So where were you from 1945 from the time that --

A: In--in--in the Feldamfing(ph). Feldamfing(ph), I-I'd say --

Q: Was that a -- was that a displaced person camp?

ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Irving Schaffer " October 19, 1993

A: Yes.

Q: Uh -- uh-huh.

A: Yes, it was for mentally disturbed people and sick ones who were -- they just took -- th-the Americans just brought them in and that's where they be -- they belonged til they recuperated, but I --

Q: So you were there for a long time?

A: I was there for a long time til I was -- I got everything organized to go to -- to Czechoslovakia.

Q: To go back to-- mm-hm.

A: Coming back was a different story.

Q: All right, so in 1946 you and your brother decided to leave Czechoslovakia?

A: Yes, yes.

Q: Where did you from there?

A: We -- first my brother suggested we should try to sell our house, to see if somebody lived there and try to sell our house. We went there with our little packages wrapped up, you know, couple bundles. And he told me, he says, Irving, you wait outside, don't come in. I'll -- if everything is okay I'Il come up to you, but if not, is -- you wait here. He went in inside to see -- there was sechukers(ph) they called them, Ukraines who moved in in our house, and he chased my brother with a http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer * October 19, 1993 bayonet. He told him, if you ever come back I'm gonna wait for you next time with a bayonet, I'll blow your head off. He started to run, he said, Itzhak, run, run, run for your life. I kept on running, running and I -- when he told me that I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it, I was crying and I was so bitter about it. There is nothing we have got here, we gotta get out of here, this is the hateful place that I -- that -- that -- th -- if you -- they found out I'm Jewish I survived, they're going to kill me too. So we ran to the small gas -- to small -- there we had two big stations, one a small one, one a big one. From where -- we're cl -- we were closer to the small station. So we got back there and we were sitting waiting for a train, you never knew when a train is gonna come, two, three hours, four or five hours. It was about one or two o'clock in the morning, we are waiting still. There were some FBI agents, you know, like, they're not FBI, th-they -- they called them -- what -- what -- what they call them, the -- in Russia, the -- I cannot recall them, but anyway, they -- they -- th-they were - NKVD they called them

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Yeah, they were watching everything and checking out outside and inside. They came and checked out everybody who was waiting at the station there, their passports. Everybody's was fine, my brother's was fine, he was liberated, he was a captured prisoner in Russia, that he had this paper that he was -- he -- that he was a http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer "deg October 19, 1993 ke -- prisoner, he was free now. But I was -- I got papers from Germany, and I w- was born in Czechoslovakia. The papers said I was born in Czechoslovakia, Chust. They called me in inside and th-th-th-the little room in there, at that station and this one NKVD'er(ph) tells me, he says, you were born here, your papers said you were born in Chust, Czechoslovakia, this is where you belong. You're not leaving this place. This is your country, your home. I said to him, I have to meet my family if somebody survived in Germany, I have to go there. Maybe later on Pll come back after I'm finished. He says no, you cannot go no place, you -- I'm sorry, you gotta stay here, that's your home. Suddenly while were ti -- I'm arguing with him and I'm ra -- crying, he -- suddenly we heard some shooting outside, fire -- they were shooting, gunfire. He started run out, I ran after him. And the minute I ran after him I s-s-saw my brother, I said -- I told my brother, run for your life, let's go to the big station. We took off, ran ou -- toward the big station. We tripped, we -- maybe took us a half an hour, 45 minutes to get there. We tripped all o-on-- on railroad ties, we fell in chuckholes. We -- we came bloodied up to the big station with our knees, but we finally made it. Here we're waiting in there for th -- for the train didn't come yet and we are hoping that there's going to be room on it because most of the time the trains were -- came in so loaded, people are hanging onto the steps, they were standing on the steps, they couldn't get on. So I finally -- we -- http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer u October 19, 1993 finally the train came, we got in, we couldn't get on. So everybody was climbing on top of the roof, so we -- I remember I -- I ran from one place, it was dark, it was after midnight, two or three o'clock in the morning. I ran from one place to another and I finally saw some people are trying to help one another to get up. I figured P11-- Tl get up too. They helped me to get up to the top of the roof. On top of the roof you were pretty safe, but when the Russians came up there to ask you for money or -- or -- or th-they're gonna kill you for watches, you had to give -- you -- there was tsoris.

There were problems. And I -- a-anyway, the train started to move. Every --

Q: And where did it go to?

A: Everything was fine, we -- we were on our way going back to -- I was supposed to go back to Germany. I said, I don't have for a pass, I'm gone -- the pa -- I know my pass is gone, I don't have nothing. They -- he too -- th-the civilian took away my pass. We are coming to the small station, the train starts out, and it's going -- my heart is feeling ba -- faster and faster, I hear the train is going and I said to myself, boy if--if we stop at that station, the small one where -- where we -- we were waiting, we ran away from, and th -- th-that civilian is waiting for me, the NKVD is waiting for me, I'll be in trouble, they're gonna take me off. It is dark, but I wen -- in -- you know, you never know what those guys will do.

Q: Mm-hm.

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A: Anyway, we got -- we got -- we g-got -- came closer by and the train just flew -- just went by, whistled loud and went by, didn't stop because there was no room no place, every seat was taken. I thank God, my God, I'm safe, I got -- I fooled them, I'm out of -- from Chust, I'm out of it. So we finally, on the way going, the -- y-you could see th-the -- the -- some of the p -- some of the people would stand up and the electric wires, or telephone wire were -- were across, and if you got up too high fro --on top of the roof, you were just picked up by the wire and you're knocked off.

Next to us that happened to one of the guys. He got up to change places with somebody else. He didn't lower his head en-enough, or he just came -- he picked his head up and -- he picked himself up just in time, when he came near the wire and he got blown off from the -- from the train.

Q: How long did the trip to Germany take?

A: Oh, I--I don't know. We had to transfer to -- several times to -- Debrecen we stopped once, and then we had to travel another one and then we came to che -- to Prague. Then -- then we -- the -- there -- there was -- it depends what kind of a train we took. Sometimes we had to go on our circuits around, sometimes they went straight, they were going different directions. Nobody [tape break] okay, we arrived, and my brother was supposed to be on -- on that train, too. And -- from http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Irving Schaffer >> October 19, 1993 Debrecen to -- to Prague. Once | got to Prague I was looking for my brother and I couldn't find him.

Q: Oh, your brother was not on the train with you?

A: No, he wasn't. He -- he -- he -- he was -- I got on, I thought for sure he's -- was on on it too. So I was waiting for him in Prague for days for him to come in, he didn't show up. I was worried about him and I d --I--I didn't know what happened to him. But I couldn't do nothing about it because the time came that we had to leave with the border at Prague chur -- i-in austr-- Austria, Czechoslovakian Australia -- Austria was going to be closed, so we had to rush out from there. We had to -- I didn't have any papers and most of the papers were taken away anyway from all the --a-all the -- you couldn't go over legally crossing the border, you -- you had to -- you had to go out without sh -- on the black market, smuggle through. So it came one day they told me -- they came -- one of the messengers told me that I should wait in the room because we may move this afternoon, we're going to ge -- go across the border to Austria. We got on on the train, it was maybe for about 25 - 30 minutes and we were across the German -- I mean, the au -- it were -- the Czechoslovakian border in Germany. It was the Russian -- actually, at that time it was the Russian German border. Russian Austria border. And we -- they put us in -- into a barn and gave us meat, horsemeat we were eating, it smelled.

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Q: Was that the Russians who --

A: N -- that -- no, that was the Austrians already.

Q: Austrians.

A: But tha -- it was the Russian at the border, they belonged to them, but th-they were controlling the border. They wouldn't let us cross the border legally, so we had to smuggle through. And we were eating the horsemeat, everybody was thro -- threw it at the cook, you know, they said, is that what we deserve after surviving?

Some of them -- you know, I was happy to eat no matter what it is, I was worried next day I'm -- I'm gonna starve. I didn't argue about it. And th-there was a young couple maybe about 18 years old, to -- a girl and a boy who lived all -- near a bridge, you know, it was just like a small bridge going over. They -- they lived under an umbrella, a poor -- sh-sha -- rain or shine, they were out there s-sleeping and living there. These poor kids, I don't know whether they were married or not, but th-th- they were survivors, they were skeletons. The girl got pregnant and she was dehydrated from -- from not eating good food, she didn't get any nutrition, the baby died a short time later, and she died then too. Then a short time later the husband died. He do --

Q: How long were you went -- how long were you with them?

A: In-- in the camp? In -- http://collections.ushmm.org

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Q: There with those people that you --

A: With those -- those people in there? They were living out there, oh I don't know, th-the -- maybe about five, six weeks. They were -- they were out there and th-they were just living there, they wouldn't --

Q: And what was the name of the place?

A: Oh, th-that was in Austria, that's a [indecipherable] Salzburg. Lan -- Linz Salzburg -- there was another name to it. I-In the town there was Salzburg, Lin -- Linz. Linz in Salzburg, something like that, yeah.

Q: And from Linz and you went to America.

A: And -- and yes, we were -- we -- we couldn't go over -- now we couldn't smuggle through the Russian -- the je -- the Austrian border, because the Russian border to cross over to German border. We had another problem there. We could go over the Austria but Russia wouldn't let you go through. So we had to -- we waited for weeks, starving in there, not eating properly and everybody's bored, wasting time in there. So we -- finally they -- we just -- some of them th-the -- the -- some guys came in and told us that we --

Q: Well, you were a group -- a group of survivors.

A: Survivors.

Q: And your brother was with you?

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A: No.

Q: No.

A: No, he was still lost, he wasn't there, I didn't --

Q: Okay, so how did you manage to get out of Germany?

A: Okay, fro-from Germany --

Q: Oh, I mean out of Austria.

A: Austria. Yeah, okay, th-that -- we finally got a couple of the -- two -- two civilians came in one evening and they told us that if you wanted to be smuggle across the border, across the Russian border -- not crush -- Au-Austrian Russian border, you will have to pay so much money. And you cannot take along nothing, you gotta leave everything behind. Well [indecipherable] most of them didn't want to go, they didn't want to get killed. They said, if they find us, th-the -- we cannot real -- you know, risk -- you're going -- it's all on your own risk. So we --I ca--it's a little too much [tape break]

Q: For a lot of money they could smuggle you across.

A: Yeah, and you gotta leave everything behind, you cannot take along nothing with you. So some of them -- and if you -- whoever wants to go tomorrow night, two trucks will come here and we -- we -- whoever comes -- comes, is gonna have to pay that price and we're gonna take you across the border. It's risky. Th-There is a risk ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Irving Schaffer * October 19, 1993 you're gonna get killed by the Russian border guard, but it's up to you. He came next night, a lot of them went out on the trucks and gave him the money. I didn't have any money, I started to collect money before -- th-the -- the night before because I didn't have enough money what they ask for, and I still didn't get enough when that -- that evening came. I begged the guy, please, that's all I have, Ica--I'm leaving everything behind, but I -- that's all I have, I--I want to g-get out of here, I don't want to be here no more. I want to go over to Germany where I was liberated so I can start a new life. He wouldn't give in, no, nothing doing, nothing doing. So I begged him again, I ran after him, he finally gave in, he says okay, get in on the truck. We -- it was late in the evening, it was dark already. We took off, two farmers truck took off. We were going with high speed over the farmland, yi -- like a hundred miles per hour. And suddenly we ca -- we came to a stop near a little lake.

We -- we had jumped off and they handed us a small tiny flashlight, you c -- like a-- like a little star you could see. And we got off all of us, and he said, you follow all -- all of you follow me with that little light, that little starlight. We just kept on running and running and here the pebbles, I remember sliding down, the pebbles are --are -- are sliding on it, you go right into the lake, because there are a lot of pebbles in here and the minute you stepped on it I kept on sliding down. I thought I'll never make it, I'll just go right in, and so did a fe-few other ones. But we kept on

84 Interview with Irving Schaffer October 19, 1993 following him and running and running and running. And he said qua -- be quiet, don't move, keep your heads down, keep your heads up. We kept on running and running with the lights were hitting our heads in -- in some of the trees. We finally came out to an open space, about 20 minutes we were running like that. At wit -- and we came to a place where he said, you're safe now. A German boat, a small one came over across, one man boat, and he t-took us over, five, six at a time. I remember we k -- th-the -- we just grabbed c-cold water just to drink in there. And then once we got across we were ge -- we got all kinds of sandwiches and hot milk is -- they said you're safe here -- you're gone, you're no more on the Russian side, your se -- you're free. After from that act --

Q: Who were the people who received you on the other side?

A: No-

Q: Germans, or -- were they Germans, or --

A: Germans, yeah.

Q: German.

A: German. German civilians.

Q: You remember the name of the town that you got through?

A: No, but I-- there was a prison. It was right after --

Q: There was what?

85 Interview with Irving Schaffer October 19, 1993

A: A prison, a prison. A-- a--a camp for -- for the ones who crossed the border illegally, they put us in -- all in a camp, like in a con --a concentration camp.

Q: Like a DP --

A: D--D -- displaced person, yes.

Q: Uh-huh, so you got to a DP camp after you ran away from -- from Czechoslovakia?

A: We -- after we crossed the border from Germany, we were picked --

Q: No, into Germany.

A: Ye--- yes, we -- once we got on that little boat, we crossed over that [indecipherable] Austria German border -- Austria Russian border, we came to -- we crossed over -- that little water that that man took us across, that was the border.

Further down there was a long bridge.

Q: And that was Germany?

A: That was Germany already, that's right. So in Germany they put us into -- into the camps --

Q: I see --

A: -- because we didn't --

Q: -- into a DP camp.

A: Yes, because we were illegally in.

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Q: Uh-huh.

A: We -- they didn't know nothing about us. So we stayed there with ga --

Q: Do you remember the name of the camp?

A: No.

Q: Mm-hm, and how long did you stay in the camp?

A: Oh, for about -- we were going crazy, about three weeks, four weeks, I don't remember any more, but it was going crazy, there was nothing doing, in a -- it was -- the guards and -- German guards were all around us in there. One day we were trying to escape to go out -- you know, esca -- escape in the city, in town, to see what's going on.

Q: What was the name of the town?

A: Oh, I don't know. I have got no --

Q: How did you manage to get out of that DP camp, and where did you go to from this --

A: Okay --

Q: -- camp?

A: Okay. After they were trying to -- we were trying to t-tell them where we want to go and what we -- where we -- I told them my story that I -- I was liberated by the Americans -- Interview with Irving Schaffer a October 19, 1993

Q: Yeah.

A: --in Germany, Feldamfing(ph) and that's where I want to go back to, the same place, that's the only place I know of. So they sooner, about a week later I was shipped to -- by tra -- by train to Feldamfing(ph) where I was libera --

Q: Originally [indecipherable]

A: -- originally liberated. From there, about two days later they shipped me -- they told me I cannot stay there, they shipped me to Fernwald(ph) camp.

Q: To which?

A: Fernwald(ph) Fernwald(ph), f-a-u-r --

Q: Uh-huh. That was also a DP --

A: -- wa-wald. Yes, also a DP camp, and I stayed there til, well --

Q: A long time?

A: I stayed there for a long time. We -- okay, we stayed there for -- for -- for a long time. Their mir -- they needed -- the-the-there wasn't enough food. We used to get packages of food for -- for two, three days at a time. Sometimes we would sell it for money because I -- I had to go to school. I started to go to Munich, Germany to school so it took me up -- it took -- cost me about two and a half da -- da -- three mark to get one way, and the other, so I needed money for that. I had to walk about 20 minutes to the train, and here my head was knocked out, I couldn't remember ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Irving Schaffer a October 19, 1993 nothing anyway, but I would -- wanted to have some education, I didn't want to lose everything, I wanted to become something, I'm --

Q: What did you study in Munich?

A: I tried to get any education, whatever I could.

Q: So what school did you go to in Munich?

A: In-- ina German school.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: It was like a junior high school.

Q: Uh-huh, and you were how old there?

A: About 15 maybe. I do --I don't recall.

Q: Uh-huh. That was in 1946?

A: 40 -- 40 -- si-- yeah, deg46.

Q: 1946.

A: Yes.

Q: And how long were you there?

A: ""m -- stayed there for about two weeks. I couldn't understand nothing. What I was -- the teacher taught, I-- I asked him for help. The -- I asked after sch -- one day of school, I've told him -- first I liked it there, I was among students, it felt so good.

And suddenly when he was teaching, I couldn't understand what he was saying and ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Irving Schaffer .deg October 19, 1993 nothing -- I could nothing absorb. My head was all knocked out, my li -- from the lead pipe and all the misery, I couldn't remember nothing. You could -- you could tell now for a minute something and not a minute even, 10 seconds it was gone, it just like you never said it. I couldn't remember nothing, period, zero. So I got disgusted, I asked the teacher for help and he said, I'm sorry, I cannot give you any help, I'm busy. I've -- you -- you have to do it on your own. So I quit that school -- and that's the time, while I was going to that school, this one guy came over and th- the -- the German, he would sa -- behind the back he yells, are you a Jude? And he handed me those pictures, you know, I-I sh-- I showed you?

Q: Oh, the picture of [indecipherable]

A: Yeah, th-th-these pictures, h-he -- he showed me that -- those. And he gave it to me, and he ran in the other direction. And then I quit. Two -- after two weeks I quit school, I couldn't handle it. I went back to the camp and I stayed there and I f- finally -- they -- they were asking for as -- they were -- some Israeli came and fr -- to -- from a kibbutz to join -- he wanted to join Haganah. So we should -- he said train some people to go over and fight in Israel. I was happy to do that, I went ahead, it was a six weeks course. After the six weeks course, I couldn't go -- get no place anyway. Then they organized -- because they killed -- one of the -- the Germans in Wolfratshausen killed one of the butchers who brought in illegally meat in the Interview with Irving Schaffer *deg October 19, 1993

camp, and they killed him, so that we -- they went ahead, they're -- the other -- the -- the survivors in the camp ran down -- went to that Wolfratshausen village and knocked out everything they could find. Burned up and th-th-th-they ret-retaliated because they killed their butcher. Then later on the -- after th-the -- because of the police -- police and what they did, they wouldn't come back no more to our camp, so we had to organ -- they had to organize our own police force. Because I had training six weeks, I became a member of the police force. I was guarding with a -- four other guys, one night we were guarding in -- near a forest with s-some other per -- survivors and we were un -- in a bunker. All we had is rifles, bayonets, but no bullets, no bullets.

Q: But you didn't have to defend -- to defend yourself against anybody, did you?

A: Well, th-th-the whole problem was the -- we -- you see killings like that. They killed th-the German --

Q: Why did they kill him?

A: Because he smuggled in meat. He smuggled in meat, he wasn't supposed to. He brought in pulholka(ph).

Q: So, who killed him?

A: The German police. German policemen on two motorcycles. They were patrolling the area, and he just [indecipherable]

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Irving Schaffer * October 19, 1993

Q: Did a lot of people go to Israel from that camp?

A: Oh yes, oh yes, that's the e--

Q: What about you?

A: I was -- wanted to go too, but I ca--I couldn't get on. They were killing -- they were sinking all the ships at that time and they mo -- automatically, when I got trained to -- to the Haganah, I was supposed to go to Israel to fight. But the-then -- then they stopped everything because they were -- they were -- we told -- they told us they were sinking -- th-the Arabs are sinking all the ships that are arrive in Israel.

So that stopped.

Q: So, who long did you stay there? I mean --

A: How long I stayed, til my f-- my father had some uncles in Israel -- I mean, in the United States, so I wrote some -- I -- I met one of the guys from u -- from the UNRRA, and I told him about it, that my father had some brothers in -- in the United State, if he could do something to find out. Well, he put it in the Jewish news, and somebody in the fa -- i-in -- in -- in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, one of the -- my cousin's husband saw that ad and he showed it to my uncles. Sure enough, I was part o -- part of them. But unfortunately, before I got to the United State, everything -- they were all dead. But going back a little bit, before I came to the United State, I got pa-papers from my cousin, the -- it -- to come to the United Interview with Irving Schaffer " October 19, 1993 State. Then we went to the [indecipherable] to the port of, in Germany, Bremenhaven(ph).

Q: In Bremerhaven.

A: Bremenhaven(ph), we went to Bremenhaven(ph) there. We got on the boat, it felt good to get away from everything, you know, it felt-- I was in heaven. We came to the -- for a few days we were on the waters and we came to the Atlantic Ocean and all of a sudden the water started to get wild, we ran into a typhoon. And the boat just kept on going up like this and going down. Everything is falling down, I was on the lower level, everything is crashing inside. I see a big bu -- a big [indecipherable] just flying from one emmet to another. And -- and we -- suddenly the water is gushing in, I see shooting in water from inside. And the water is just tumbling over from all sides. I s-- I was -- there was -- next to me was a woman in there, her -- one of the poles from the downstairs fell on top of her si -- hip in there on the side, and she was in agony and she's taking in water. I'm standing in there paralyzed, I didn't know what to do. I'm -- I'm deep in my water in my knees, but I'm standing paralyzed and I didn't know what to do. One of the air -- one of the what's his name jumped over and he grabbed me. One of the [indecipherable] what -- what do you call them, the -- from the hot -- from the boat, the m -- one of the Marines, okay.

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Q: Yeah.

A: Marines, whatever they call it. He grabbed me, pulled me out from there. I don't know where he took me, I don't remember nothing any more. I ca--I--I don't remember a word, I woke up. I wounded up in -- at the New York per -- harbor, and I was on -- on the top deck in there. I don't know what happened to the boat, of wa -- how -- whether we got on another boat. I was just out completely, my memory was lost, I couldn't remember nothing.

Q: What year did you come to America?

A: 1947.

Q: 1947. And what time of year, do you remember?

A: August, the third, I think. Oh yeah, aug -- August the third, ninet --

Q: All right, let me ask you some questions. Did you ever apply or receive reparations from -- reparations?

A: But what does that mean?

Q: You know, a lot of German Jews got money from Germany.

A: Oh yeah, yeah, yes, yes, I did.

Q: You did?

A: I'm getting the smallest one they get, I know that -- I started out too late, I should have gotten a hell of a [inaudible] Interview with Irving Schaffer " October 19, 1993

Q: How do you feel today about the war in -- did the war influence you in any way?

A: You mean the second World War?

Q: Yeah.

A: I think the second World War did not do the -- so much damage to the world than it did to the Jewish people. The world did not lift a finger to help for the Jewish people. The United State did not want to bomb Auschwitz for a reason. They were around, they couldn't. There was wide open spaces, they could just go ahead that little place and bomb it and they could have saved millions of Jews, but they didn't care, they didn't want to. Roosevelt didn't care. They p -- a lot of people asked him.

There was one a-ambassador, a Polish went to him and he told them, he says, they're killing Jews, innocent people, he showed him what's happening. He says, we're busy fighting a war, we have got no time for that.

Q: Did you ever talk about your experiences?

A: Oh yes.

Q: And you talk about them now, too?

A: Oh yes, to -- th -- about 20 years I been talking to schools, synagogue, churches, all kinds of the -- everywhere. Colleges.

Q: Does the war still affect you?

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A: Yes, I live with -- with it every day. In fact, I was talking to you, I'm -- I was jumping from one camp to another, the killing, the shooting, th-the -- some of the -- of the prisoners are collapsing and I see them ba -- b-being hit. I see every -- everything s-still is in my head, I -- it keeps on going 24 hours a day. Even I'm driving the car I see sometimes a motorcycle, I see that SS who was sh -- who was holding the gun at me, he -- he was chasing me with a gu -- at gunpoint to -- back to the -- to the slaughter e -- where they were slaughtering the prisoners, where the bombed train was. I see in front of me sometimes, I -- I wander around the ghetto of the street, I come back all mixed up, I'd wa -- I'm afraid I'm gonna hit somebody. I just want to get out, but there are times I cannot get no place, I slow down. But I cas -- live with it every day. I'm talking -- I'm -- I walked around in here everywhere. I ran though the -- when I went through the museum I didn't even look too much, I just ran through, I came out to the other end, I waited for my wife in the other end. I cannot look at it because I know I -- I have lived with it and I know what it is all about. But I--

Q: What did you tell your children about the --

A: Well, they -- I have told my children about it, but I don't get too much of an answer, they're just somehow heartbroken about it too, but they don't talk too much about it. They don't say nothing about it so I can't -- I cannot go and ask them how ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Irving Schaffer degdeg October 19, 1993 they feel because I know they're hurt. I mean, they lost grandparents, they don't have anybody in family, we're -- I'm all -- the only one left from --

Q: When did you find out about your parents and your sisters, that --

A: They're gone?

Q: Yeah.

A: Well, I was ho -- had hope all along that maybe a miracle happened, they got out from the gas chamber. But unfortunately none of them came back and I knew all along they were dead, but in my mind I op -- kept on thinking they're alive. They're someplace among the stars in heaven and they're waiting for me to join them someplace. I never gave up o-on that, but I, unfortunately I cannot --

Q: Well, is there anything else that you would like to tell us --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- that you may have forgotten now -- forgotten while we were talking?

A: I-I--I would like to end with the American -- God bless the United State soldiers wherever they may be, whether the ones who are alive or dead. Without them I wouldn't be here to tell you the story what I went through. I probably would have been someplace burned or buried. And God bless America, it's a wonderful country. We -- the people in -- in this country don't appreciate the freedom that much like the people who suffered and -- all their lives and they come here to a

Interview with Irving Schaffer " October 19, 1993 country that they can kiss the earth, there's -- there's justice, freedom and peace for everybody. I thank you for asking me, Mrs. Houten(ph) to give this interview, yes.

Q: Well, thank you very much for this interview, Mr. Schaffer.

A: If--if you need any more -- any help to this, please call me. I'll be very happy to help you out, because the world must know of the tragedies, what happened to the six million. It was actually eight -- 18 million. Six -- wait a minute, six -- five -- 11 million all together. Five million non-Jews were -- were also killed in the Holocaust.

But I'1l -- we -- we must remember the Holocaust. We must never forget it because the holocausts are going on today. We must be sensitive to danger signals and try to cope with them, so that tragedies like that never happened again. Thank you again.

Q: Well, thank you again, thank you very much.

A: You're very welcome.

End of Tape Two, Side A

Conclusion of Interview