Document

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 3

A: Before the war, yes, she was working with my father. She was working a sewing machine in Havre (ph), in the business of my father. And until the end, she was working with him.

Q: And she stopped when the war began?

A: Well, she stopped when the French police, under the order of the German came to pick up my two brother. And my two brother did follow the police with no resistance, because they, you know, the police said it is just to make a verification of your paper. And they didn't ask anything about my father, but he right away closed the whole thing. And we had been waiting about the answer, but my two brother never came back.

Q: Can you just tell me something about your childhood, your home? What stands out in your memory from that time?

A: Well, we used to have a nice apartment in Paris, close to the business of my father. And also about fifteen miles from Paris, we did have a little villa, where we used to go on Saturday and Sunday and stay there. Life was very simple, happy, didn't have any major problem. They used to work during the week. I used to go to school. Saturday... Friday night, we load the car, we did go and stay outside of Paris. And everything was fine and dandy. So, life was normal, until the whole German story start and then everything change overnight.

Q: Were your parents religious at all? Your family?

A: My mother was very religious, but my father was not religious at all. So, he ask me one day, I remember, he said, "Do you want to do your Bar Mitzvah?" And I said, "No, I don't want to." Okay, no Bar Mitzvah. And it was the end of the story. My brothers never did a Bar Mitzvah.

He was really not very interested in, not only in the Jewish religion, but on any religion. This is, I think, the way I am now. [Laughing]

Q: Was it hard for your mother that you, that you and your brothers weren't being raised more religious?

A: I think so. I think it was hard for her and this is why she asked us, the day she's going to die, she wants to be buried with the Jewish religion, which we did. At the time, I did have an office in south of France, close to Nice. And when she died, we made... the rabbi did the whole thing.

We didn't understand anything about it, because it was the first Jewish funeral we did. But here she is in south of France, in a Jewish place, where she was buried like the Jewish religion.

Q: Do you remember... I assume you, were you going to a public school?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember when the Germans occupied France? Do you remember them coming in?

A: In France? They came very, not in force. They came very, very slowly. The reason, I think, they got the whole thing so easy is because the French people are very anti-Semitic. So, for them 3

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 4

to give the address or to reveal where the Jew were living, it was not a problem. And I don't mean to say all of them, because a lot of police... we did have a neighbor, across from our apartment, who was from the police. And I even remember his name. His name was Mr.

Reddler (ph). And every time something did happen, he came in our door, knock on the door and said, "Be careful. They're going to do this, they're going to do this." So, I don't mean to say all the Frenchmen, but I said at least the majority of the French people were anti-Semitic.

Q: Did you have any sense, up to that point, of being a Jew? Had you personally experienced any anti-Semitism?

A: All the time, even when I was a little boy I took the subway in Paris and you can see on the wall, Jew equal concentration camp, Jew go home, things like this. Yes, you couldn't do otherwise than to realize, okay, we are not welcome in our own country. When I say our own country, I'm born in France, so I thought I was a Frenchman, which was a big mistake, because no. I was a Jew. It's a little bit the same problem and I don't want to start any...

Q: It's okay.

A: It's the, my feeling... I speak with a lot of black people here and I ask them why do you call yourself, African-American? I don't say to people, Iam a French-American. I'm an American, because I asked to become an American. If I would call myself French-American, it would mean to say, I'm very happy to be French and I'm also happy to be an American. And I think in life, you have to make a choice, either you are an American or you're French. And if it wouldn't be... I say this the other day to a black guy. He was very surprised. And coming from me, I think it was not a big problem. But I said, "I think you're very lucky, your grand-grandparent was brought in United State. At least now you can drive a car. You can have a nice home, instead of being in Africa where you'd be starving. You wouldn't have any clothes to put on your back and anybody can kill you. And this for me is racism. Here racism is not this. They are not racist, so I don't understand why you call yourself African-American. You are American from two, three or four generations. And it's not because your parents were slave." And when you know the story about the slave, it's not the American who took the black people. It's the chief of the village, who give black people to the American. So...

Q: What kind of response did you get?

A: Most of the time they said, "Well it's a way of things. You have a different way of speaking." And I said, "You know, I, as a Jewish person cannot be a racist. So, if I tell you this, it's because coming from another country, I'm surprised the way you deal with your slave story. You feel sorry for yourself, but you're so lucky to be in a country where you have freedom and you can live like any other person. You're Black? Sure it's, you can see a black man, but sometimes you can recognize a Jewish boy and so it's nothing worse to be Black or to be Jew, but I don't want to fight the country for this."

Q: You don't think that Jews can be racist, too?

4 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 5

A: Oh, yes. Oh yeah, oh yeah, Jewish people can be very, very racist. And I saw this on many different occasion. But it's not the same kind of racism they have. It's a... I don't know any Jew belonging to the KKK.

Q: They wouldn't probably accept them. [Laughing]

A: Absolutely, so I don't think... but it's, it make a... Man is man, woman is woman, people are people. And you can find people, different idea of people, different approach of life and so I think, yes, it can be a lot of, some Jewish people can be racist. It doesn't make a... but before we have to define: what do they mean by being racist?

Q: What do you think that means?

A: Well, racism is something, it's hate with no reason. You like some people, you like some people living in this country. You like some people living in another country. You don't like people the way they live, this can be racism. But basically, it's not racism, it's something, because you don't like their way of laughing. Black people are very exuberant and maybe some American don't like this and this can be a form of racism. And like I said before, Jewish people living in America are much more American than they are Jewish. And because of this, they can be racist.

Q: I don't understand that last. Because they're Jewish people living in America, they can be racist.

A: Because they feel very safe in this country. And like I told you before, Jewish people are Jewish by tradition, but they belong to a minority. And if you are in France or in United State or any country in the world, you still are minority. But it is so comfortable in United State, then Jewish people forget the background and say, "But I'm an American." And I say, "No, first you are Jew, and if anybody is going to kill you, they're going to kill you, just because you are Jew, not because you're an American." And this is the big problem and they lose the identity of being Jewish, just because they feel so comfortable. They feel, /t's my country. Yes it is, in one way.

But until, and you can see this on TV, this young man, who been speaking about racism against black, Jew, all the Jew have the power in the bank. It's not true, but in his mind it is. And he killed people and he killed himself. You saw this on TV two or three days ago. This is the big problem.

Q: Let's go back a little bit to, you were just telling me before about your experience as a child in Paris and the anti-Semitism that you experienced. Did you have, were all of your friends Jewish at the time?

A: At the time I didn't have a lot of friends, because I was, I did a big selection. I'm not the kind of man who have a lot of friends. And yes, at the time all my friends, at the time were Jewish. The reason is, I feel more comfortable with Jewish people than with non-Jewish people. And again, I don't speak about religion. I speak about tradition. Going to a Jewish restaurant once in a while, it's fun and it remind me memory. Watching a movie with Jewish song, it's fun. I've been married twice with non-Jewish woman and I was missing this exchange of jokes, Jewish jokes or word. Even in New York, when I go to New York, people speak a lot of Jewish word and it's always funny. And I always say, "Are you Jewish?" "No, but we use a lot of Jewish word here 5

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 6 in New York," but they are not Jewish. But it's funny, I like it, because it's something... So when I was in France, I didn't want to have non-Jewish friend because I would never know if the same guy is not going to give me a knife when the time comes.

Q: You really felt that at a very early age?

A: Oh yes, oh yes.

Q: Did you...

A: Well, my brother came back from the concentration camp. The only reason I left France to come in the United State, I decided to come here in 1983, is because I didn't feel comfortable in France. Because up to this date, you have this anti-Semitism in France. My brother, who is seventy-six or seventy-eight, doesn't feel it. He said, "No, this is in your mind." And he is married with a non-Jew woman. She is wonderful woman, but I don't feel comfortable. I...

France is a beautiful country. I like to go on vacation, but I couldn't live there anymore, because of all this background. I've never been comfortable in France.

Q: Did your family speak Yiddish at home?

A: Yes, all the time.

Q: Do you still speak Yiddish?

A: Yes, uh huh. I don't find a lot of people I can speak Yiddish with, because most of the Jewish people here, don't speak Yiddish. But my grandson, which is the son of my daughter, and my daughter doesn't follow the religion. But my grandson studied the Jewish story, I mean the difference between Sepharad and Ashkenazi and he said, "But sometime they are racist between..." And I said, "Yes, I know." I think if you put two men with no religion on an island, there's going to be racism, because man is stupid. They want to fight. They want to fight for a reason. The reason is religion. And they are going to fight about God, it's my God, it's not your God. God is God. Your God is my God. There is only one God. But we don't want this, this way.

Q: Going back to Paris, you were talking a little bit earlier about the time when your two brothers were called in and they were deported. Do you remember around when that was?

A: It was March in 1942, when they did go to Auschwitz. Before it was a camp a little bit outside of Paris called Drancy, where all the Jewish people been put together for a length of time, I think it was between eight and ten month. Where they start to shape the whole thing: "Are we going to send them? What kind of train are we going to use?" It was another camp not far from there, called Compiegne, which was also the same kind. So... there is a man, who came here in Lexington, a Jewish man, who gave something... I've got something, I will remember his name.

And he explained what the German did have in mind. And it's amazing the way they did organize the whole thing. Even it was a lot of Jewish people, put together in a train, they didn't know nothing, from where they come, what they going to do, where they going to go.

6 http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 7 Everything was real on paper. The train company didn't know what they were going to transport, because it was special train for animals. So, it was so well organized, and they prepared all this and from each country it was the same thing. From Poland it was another way.

From Yugoslavia it was another way. From Austria it was another way. It was really a technique they did have. And the top of those guys, I'm afraid to say he was a brain, because he was crazy. But his name was Himmler, and he organized the whole thing. And he organized this very well. And you know, the Jewish people who've been in camp, most of them were, what we call here blue-collar, simple people. They didn't think we're going to kill them. Even until they arrive in the camp, when they say, the SS was on, say, one side, "You go this way, you go this way." No, it was nothing. The only time my brother realized he was in a bad direction is when one time, coming down from the train, he didn't go fast enough. The SS slapped his face.

And he was nineteen years old. Then he realized something is going to happen, now it's another world. But until then, well it was hard, they didn't have anything to eat in the train. They didn't have any water. They didn't have any... but it's going to clear up, no problem. They didn't realize they go to the butcher. They go to die, by thousands. And this was the life. They did go, because the only one who realize what's going on were the educated people, the attorney, the doctor, the people who did study. But they were not many people. When my brother was deported in Auschwitz, it was a guy with him, who was, I think he was a colonel in the French army. And he said, "They are going to do nothing to me. I'm a colonel from the French army." He died like all the one, just because he was Jew. That's all. They didn't care he was a colonel.

He did have a high education. Doesn't make any difference. You are Jew, you must die. It's amazing, eh? But...

Q: Did you and your family have any contact with your brothers while they were in Drancy?

A: Yes, we did have the possibility to go around the camp, Private Honor (ph) from Haus (ph) let us in and we could communicate by sign. So we can see they are alive, because in Drancy they didn't kill anybody. They been starving. They even allowed to receive some package of food.

But like I said, it was not a long time, but communicate mouth to mouth? No, it was impossible.

No German in Drancy just the French military and the police. No SS, no German, the whole camp was under the surveillance of the French police.

Q: Were your parents surprised about that?

A: It's very hard for me to remember. It's very hard, because like I said, I was eight, nine year. No, I have a hard time to remember the reaction of my father, the reaction of my mother. No, I don't have any recollection.

Q: Do remember any talk about the political situation at home?

A: Well, you have to remember, my parent were not very high educated people. My mother did barely write. She spoke mostly the language, but she didn't speak the... but it was, it was something. You have to remember my parent left Russia because of the Bolshevism. My parent were three hundred percent for the idea of communism. So, they were with one track mind. So politically, even if I could remember, I don't think it would be accurate, because they were too much in one way. I couldn't have any discussion. Even my brother, who is alive now, I can,

7 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 8 some conversation about politic I cannot have with him, because he is still in one track. Very hard to discuss about politic. And again, like I said before, France is his country. It's the best place, why should I go in America?

End of Tape 1, Side A 8 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 9 Tape 1, Side B

Q: This is tape number one, side B of an interview with Doctor Paul Pressman. Do you, how, did your parents tell you at all, when they were making plans to escape to the South of France? Was there any discussion with you about that or did it just happen?

A: No, they, my parent, neither my mother, neither my father, didn't discuss with the children.

We'd been raised with a lot of authority from my folks. And they say, "This is an emergency; we have to go." So my father is going to go there. We are going to go there. And we'll see how it is going to be. And we'll decide day by day, because it was no other way. We have to leave everything. Everything we got lost. We left with too little luggage and that's it, because we knew we never going to see anything we left. Because it was the end. We try to save our life, that's all. So another time for me and like my two other brother were in Drancy, so it was only another brother and me, so it was a little bit easier. So, my father left with my other brother, Gaston, and I stay with my mother. And at the time it was, Paris became very, very difficult. No place to hide, so my mother send me through the Zone. It was a line between the North and South and you have to pass the Zone. And some French people for money, they direct you between the army. And I did go in South in Grenoble. And when I arrive in Grenoble, a friend of my mother took me and three days later she came down. And we stay... and I don't remember how long, maybe couple months, three months. And it became very dangerous to stay there. So, she send me to my father. And where my father was, was more dangerous than there, so they decide... I came back to see my mother and my mother, remember I was nine years old. So, they decide to send me to Switzerland with a group of Jewish people, boys. And I think I was the oldest one from all the boys. We were about fourteen, fifteen. So, we did go in one little town, just to the frontier, slept there until midnight, one o'clock in the morning. Then two men took us, make us walk and we arrive on the border. The Swiss took us and put us in a refugee camp.

Q: Did you leave to go to the South of France immediately, was that before your brothers had been deported for Auschwitz from Drancy?

A: No after, right after, because it was very, they realized now that's it. If we don't do something, they are going to take us and we're going to go to Auschwitz. So, probably my parents said, let's save there two boys and we'll see.

Q: Did you know anything about Auschwitz at the time?

A: No. No. No, we didn't know. No, I don't think I knew something. We knew about Drancy because I did go to Drancy with my mother just to see from far away my brother. But we didn't know anything about the camp where they burn cadaver, where they put them in a chamber and put gas. We didn't know all this. No.

Q: Do you remember from that time any restrictions starting to be imposed on you as a Jew?

A: Oh, the first restriction was to carry the yellow badge. We did have a yellow star, the Jewish star, with inside "Jew" and you have to carry this in anything you wear. So, you did have two way, either you don't carry this thing and if they catch you, they kill you right there, or if you 9

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 10 have one, everybody can see you. And this was only in the north of France, in Paris. So this is why my mother decided to let us go down in south, because it was, I remember when they start to give us this yellow badge to carry. In the street I used to live, it was a man, who was very old, maybe eighty-five, ninety and he was blind, Jewish. And he carried this yellow thing and I thought to myself, this is terrible, because if you can treat a human being, because of religion, it's really the end. And this is, I think where my mother decided to send me, because, you know, it's so easy. It's very hard to explain how does it look. How do you realize a park, like here, Rupp Arena, downtown, with all the door closed, only one open and you push all the Jew inside.

And it was, I don't know, maybe five hundred thousand, six hundred thousand. I don't know...

all there. And from there, they start to spread group. And this was the beginning of the end. So, it was time to do something, leave, hide and this is where I think they organized this, my mother and my father.

Q: Did they have any connections with any resistance organizations at that time?

A: I found out my mother was a captain from the French army. Since when, I don't know. When I was in Grenoble, this is where I realized what she was doing, because I never saw my mother with a gun. And one day, she did have a big book, she always carry with her. And I said, why do you carry this book? And she said, well, I will show you, but you forget about what you are going to see. She opened the book and it was cut and it was a gun inside. Because she used to bring food to Resistance who had been caught and put into the hospital. And she survived the whole thing, because she die after the war, with... So, yes she belonged to a group, but...

Q: Was it, when you say French army, what exactly do you mean?

A: The French regular army.

Q: But the French army...

A: Was illegal, because the real army were at the service of the Germans. All the, I don't know how I'm going to tell you...

Q: It was under de Gaulle?

A: Yes. Force Frangaise de |"Interieur (ph). So, it was civilian. They didn't have any uniform, but they been working to liberate France under the order of Charles de Gaulle, who was in England.

So, they been listening to the radio at night for special message. But all this for me was, I didn't understand.

Q: When did you find out that she was a captain with the army?

A: I think I was, just before I left for Switzerland, which was about... when I left for Switzerland, I think it was in "44, around 1944, what month, I don't remember. But it was in 1944. This is where she went... and I, we were a little bit surprised, because when we... when they took us to the frontier at Switzerland, two military from Swiss did have the gun and say, "Approach the door." And I don't know if you know it, but the Swiss soldier are dressed exactly like the 10

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 11 German soldier. Green with the same helmet. And I thought to myself, ""That's it, they got us." The only difference, they got button who say Switzerland. And with the light, I saw the button and I said, "Uh huh, maybe we got a chance," but otherwise they look exactly like the German.

And they put us in the camp. A lot of people... they did have to put us ina camp. For one reason is because, a lot of people left France to go to Switzerland, but the Swiss didn't know who they was. So, before, they did the same thing, they put them in a camp and ask questions.

Interrogate them. And from there, they put me in another camp of children. And from there, you did have a lot of family from Switzerland who said, "I can take one or two boy in my home. I have the room." And this is how I did go to this priest, who was, not Catholic, he was...

Q: Protestant.

A: Protestant. And I stay with him until the end of the war.

Q: Before we go to that, tell me how you got from Paris to Grenoble.

A: By myself. My mother put me on the train and she told me a lot of thing. "Don't say this, don't say this, don't speak to nobody. Don't do this." She give me a couple sandwich. It took about maybe five, six hour.

Q: Do you remember specifically what she told you to do and do not do?

A: Yes. "If anybody ask you if you Jewish, you say no. Where do you go? You go to see your uncle, to stay with him. What his name? You don't know. Somebody is going to be at the station to pick you up. If any German soldier come close to you in the train and you see he start to ask paper, stay close to somebody, don't be by yourself." Just basic common things, which I did. And when I arrive at Grenoble, she also give me a pass name. And she said, "Don't go with anybody unless they tell you this." And I don't remember what it was. A word like summertime or something like this. And this lady came to me and said "Summertime," and I said okay. And I did go with her. I didn't have any luggage. I did have a little package, but...

Q: Were you afraid?

A: I don't think so. If my memory is correct, I was not afraid. I don't think so.

Q: Was it kind of an adventure?

A: No. The funny part is all my life, like I said, I'm not religious, but all my life, I believe since I was a little boy... and I used to speak about this with my mother. I believe we don't die. The body die, but the spirit stay alive. So, I said, the worst can happen to me, they going to get my body, but my spirit is going to be reborn in another corp. This helped me a lot by making me feel more secure. And dying, I never been afraid of dying. It's not a problem for me. I felt what should happen, will happen. But no, I don't think I was afraid. No.

Q: Did you have any problems on the train at all?

11 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 12

A: No. One time it was, I remember because I was standing. I didn't have any seat. I saw the German beginning the train and going room to room to ask paper. And I thought to myself, now is the time to find myself a tutor. So, it was a couple in the train. And nicely I ask them if... I always been a good diplomat. I asked if I can sit close to them. And they felt something, probably. The German come in, they say, "Who is this boy?" "He's with us." And it was finished. And they left. I remember the whole thing from Paris to Grenoble like it was yesterday. I could recognize the face of the German soldier. But it was, no it was not a game. | realized it was very serious, but when everybody dance, you have to dance. And I thought if I don't survive, no problem.

Q: Who was there to greet you when you got off the train?

A: A lady, and I don't remember this lady, because I didn't see her long enough. She took me to a group of people. I stay with this group ina room. | stay about a day or two. We didn't go out.

And then my mother picked me up and I stay with her one day, and she put me on another train.

To save me, she try something... it was funny, but it was not funny in real. In Grenoble, she found a way, I don't know how she did, she found a way to put me in a... Catholic people who are...

Q: Monks?

A: Monk.

Q: Monastery?

A: Yes. And I stay there for three days and I couldn't stand it. And I couldn't stand it. I left, I mean it was very hard to go out from the monastery. So, I put myself when... and I saw when they took the garbage can. And I found an empty one and I did go inside. And they put me ona truck. And I left the monastery and I did go see my mother. When I arrive, and she said, "How did you get out? Why? What happened? You've been safe!" And I said, "I can't stay there, it's impossible. And one day or another, they going to come." So finally she decided to send me to Switzerland.

Q: But how long were you in Grenoble before you went to Pau to join your father?

A: Very short time, very short time. We speak about maybe a week, not long. Every time it was a few days there, a few days there, back and forth, you know.

Q: And when you were in Grenoble was that during the time that the Italians were occupying that area?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember, did you have any interaction with Italian forces?

12 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 13

A: No, Italian are very funny people. They are very, how can I say, I won't say romantic, but they are very nice. Even now, I don't know why, when I go to Europe, a lot of people, when I go to Europe I go with friends, "Let's go to Italy." I don't want to go to Italy. It's not I don't like Italian, but they always romance, they are very crying, very... I don't like Italian. [Laughing]

Q: Do you think that goes back to that time that you were there in Grenoble?

A: I don't know. I don't know. I have a hard time to analyze why I don't like Italian, but I don't know. Spanish are completely different. They are more rough. Italian, when you go in Italy, men walk in the street, holding hand by hand. They are very different. And I don't know why. I mean I wouldn't do any harm to Italian, but going to Italy. The decor is always the same. You been to Italy? Did you go to the Piazza San Marco? And you see the police man with the, they look like... I don't like this. [Laughing] So, I avoid to go to Italy. Three years ago, I did have to give a seminar in Torino, Turin in French. And I felt myself like twenty years ago, with all those guy, with the big parade, you know, they always...

Q: A lot of pomp.

A: Yes, they love this. AndI don't. So, I don't go to Italy.

Q: Why was it that your mother sent you to join your father in Pau?

A: Because she thought it going to be much easier for her. I didn't know at the time. But it's going to be much easier for her to do what she was doing. Because I was not easy. I was not easy. I didn't obey very good, when she say you stay in this room and you don't move. I didn't see really the big danger. You know, Italian people are very nice, I can go in the street and walk, you know. She say, "No, you stay here." So, she said, "I will send you to your father. He's going to take care of you." But it was very dangerous where he was, so this is why they decide to send me in Switzerland.

Q: Was your father involved in the Resistance also?

A: I don't think so. No, I don't think so. No, he was too hot-blood. When it was bad where he was in Tarbes, and I don't know how they found out about him. The only thing I remember, he was in a big place, sitting on a bench and this police truck came to pick him up. And it was about ten, twelve police man. And when from the witnessed friend who was with him, who survived, he was almost naked. He fight so much, and he was so strong. And this was the last we knew about him. Where was he killed? We don't know. Where is his body? We don't know. Where is he buried? We don't know. So, he fight for his life, but... No, he didn't have the diplomacy of my mother. She was more soft. For him, he was raised, he was orphan, so he was raised in Romania, the hard way. So, even when he came in France, for him, no discussion, he punch, that's all. So.

Q: How did you find out what happened to him?

13 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 14

A: Because his friend, who was at the time with him, saw the whole thing. And he witnessed. But he died a long time ago, this guy. The only thing I remember, I'm... some people are visual.

You can tell me a story about a place you've been and I can see where you are. And if you describe the place, and the border of the sea, with the boats, with the mountain, the sun, the water comes on your leg, I can see the whole thing. The picture is very clear. So, as soon as he explained to me what happened, I can see the picture. I saw... I know where was the place. So, I can see this whole thing. And when this is in my memory, I remember.

Q: How did you get from Grenoble to Pau?

A: I took the train. My father told me if anything happened, "Go home, here is the place where is the money. Take the money, buy what you need." So, I did go buy a ticket and I did go see my mother again. And she said, "Now it's time for you to escape."

Q: So how long were you in Pau before you left again?

A: Well, you see we moved from Pau to Tarbes, which is very close, maybe fifty miles. So it was a few days, but I don't remember. I remember the room he rent with the little kitchen. How long did I stay there? I have no idea, maybe two weeks, maybe two months, I don't know.

Q: And you were traveling the same way that you had traveled from Paris to Grenoble?

A: The same, by train. Train in France is very safe. It's always on time and it's very easy, clean.

And I did have my way to speak to people and trust them and they trust me. And you know, you're always ready to, if you today, take the train and see a boy, eight, nine years old and he's by himself, you are going to tell him, "Can I help you? Can I do something for you? What is your life?" "Well, I left my father and I'm going to meet my mother, but I'm alone on the train." "Do you have any money? Do you want to eat something?" This is a normal, right? And this is what happened. And people were very nice and again like I tell you, I got a little bit diplomacy.

And I didn't have any problem.

Q: What was your father doing during that time?

A: In Pau and Tarbes? Nothing. He couldn't work. He was just, probably waiting until the war is going to be finished.

Q: Was he...

A: It was not before, long before the war finished that he died. I think it was a question of months, six month or seven month, something like this and the war was finished. He was not lucky.

Q: Was he living openly as a Jew?

A: No. No, openly as a Jew, you dead.

Q: He had false papers?

14 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 15

A: Yes. I know the name, I remember the name of my mother, the false name, Shauvel. But his name, I don't remember. He did have a false name, that I don't know. I remember one time, he did have, he became very ill. My father never got ill. He became very ill and when the doctor came, he palpate the stomach, and when he push in one side, he scream so hard, they thought it was appendicitis. And really it was a kidney stone. So, he was in the hospital for three, three, four day and he came out and it was all over. He lost weight, he was beautiful.

Q: Was your brother there at the time?

A: Yes. And my brother, Gaston, give him a hard time, because at the time he was seventeen, eighteen, something like this. Very good looking boy and for him, war didn't mean nothing. He wants to have a good time. That was a big problem between my father and him.

Q: What did you do with your days?

A: Start to read as much as I could. Walking with my father. He used to... he loved to walk. So I walked with him. We did go buy some food. He was cooking. We never been to a restaurant.

He was cooking. He was not such a good cook, but it was okay. [Laughing] But we stayed together most of the time. He always got an eye on me. And we stay together. But I was young and it's hard for me to remember a lot of things. But I have a little picture in my mind of things we did together. I will show you a picture of the whole family when I was a little boy.

Q: Are there any other things that stand out in your memory from that time?

A: No, everything is very clear. Everything... the only thing which is not clear is the time, how long did I stay there? How many time did I go back and forth? But I remember where I was living with my mother. I remember one time, I told you she did have a gun in the book, and she did go bring some food in the hospital for French Underground soldier, who were wound. And we came back to the house and we went on subway, but not underground, over ground. The police, German police stopped the whole thing, make us going down and align everybody. And I saw my mother with the book under her arm and I said, "Phew, if they open this." They ask question, and up in the train again and we left. And I didn't say anything to my mother. She didn't say anything to me.

End of Tape 1, Side B 15

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 16 Tape 2, Side A

Q: This is tape number two, side A of an interview with Dr. Paul Pressman. So you, when you, you were going back and forth a little bit between, between where your father was and where your mother was and that's not all together... you're not sure about how many times you went back and forth. Is that what you said?

A: Yeah, no more than twice at the most. One, sure, but twice at the most.

Q: What happened... at what point were you... were you separated from your father? Were you in, was it Tarbes?

A: Tarbes.

Q: Were you in Tarbes with your father when he was killed and then you left? Or what caused you to leave for the last time?

A: No, I was there when he was killed.

Q: You were?

A: Uh huh. I was not with him, but I was there and this is how I knew about the story, because his friend told me.

Q: Okay.

A: And this is when I did go back and see my mother, who tried to find out, but we couldn't. I mean she couldn't find out anything about it, because relation between... the situation didn't... it was not easy. She couldn't call anybody. She couldn't call the authorities without revealing herself.

Q: Were you with, was your brother still with you at that time?

A: Yeah, he didn't live with us. He live with, in another place. I don't know where. Where was he? What was he doing? I don't remember. I don't know what, where he was.

Q: So, when you returned to Grenoble and prepared to go to Switzerland, your brother was not with you?

A: No, no. He never been, at this time he never been with me. The only time I saw him again, is when the war finished, I was with Mr. Lederman in Switzerland. And I said, "Now it's time for me to go home." And he say, "Patience," you know, "let's wait a little bit." And I said, "No, I know where we're going to find... 1 know where I'm going to find my mother." And he said, "You don't want to wait a little bit?" Because it was a lot of thing going on. And I said, "No, no, I would like to go now." So, he was a little bit reluctant to let me go, but he let me go. And I did go to Grenoble, from Switzerland to Grenoble where my mother used to live. And I didn't 16

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 17 find her. So, I did go to, there was a Jewish association in Grenoble, so I did go there. And they said they knew about my mother. They said, "No, she did go back to Paris and her sister apartment, because her apartment was with people, with your brother, Gaston." I said, "How can I go?" And they asked me, "Do you have money? We'll buy you a ticket." They bought me a ticket, train again. And I did go to Paris. And when I did go to the train in Grenoble, I met a young soldier, French soldier and I did the whole travel with him. He took care of me. And before we left, this lady from the Jewish association sent a wire to my mother and when | arrive in the train station in Paris, my mother and Gaston were there waiting for me. And we did go see, we did go to the apartment of her sister, who die in Auschwitz and it was nobody in the apartment. It was a very small apartment and oh, maybe... time for me is very hard... maybe two months later or three months later, the Jewish people from the camp, from Auschwitz, Dachau, Buchenwald, all those places, start to come back in Paris. And it was a big hotel, called Hotel Lutecia (ph) prepare for clean them, to ask paper, if they got anything, you know. And Hotel Lutecia call us and say we have one Pressman. So, we did go there right away and it was Bernard. But we couldn't see him. We didn't know where he was. So, we wait, go, ask, couldn't find him. The next day... so, we did go home at this apartment and the next day we receive a man, who said, "Your son did go to the old apartment," who was let's say like, five blocks from where we were. So, we did go by foot, walking and here, is coming, my brother.

This is where we find out my other brother was dead. He was killed in Auschwitz. And Bernard was alive. Then we did go to the apartment of my aunt, sister of my mother, and life started to re-organize. We want to recuperate the fabric of my father. Everything was gone, but at least the wall was there and my brother decided to--because he was trained by my father--to open the place. And with my mother, they start to re-open the place and I started to go to college, to school, to school first. And after I decided to go to college. And it was a little fight, family fight, because they want me to be an upholsterer like my father and I said no, I want to study medicine. Everybody said, "But we cannot help you," and I said, "I don't ask for help. I will work myself." I found a little room and I was working, doing a lot of things and studying medicine. After this, I became the doctor of the family. [Laughing]

Q: Let's go back because I want to hear about your time in Switzerland and I want to hear, can you tell me a little bit more in detail about your journey to Switzerland?

A: Uh huh. Yeah, it was a very, very interesting. I think I wouldn't study all the study I did, if 1 didn't go with Pastor Lederman and his wife. Because I speak always about him. His name was Charles, but his wife was something great. I mean, she was a teacher in school for children, but she was a very, very strong person. And when they accept me, I receive a tag around my neck.

They put me again in another train from Geneva to, it's a little town where they used to live, Rances. Very small town. He was the pastor of the town. And they came and picked me up. I didn't know where I was. Mine parrain, my godfather was very, very cheerful, very big open mind, very smart man. They were a very nice couple, but they never could have any children.

So, mine godfather was priest, so he said, "You going to go to the synagogue." And I said, "I never been to a synagogue and I don't want to go to a synagogue." He said, "I'm sorry, you're Jewish, you're going to go to the synagogue." So, every week I did have to go and it was far away, because there was no synagogue where he was. So, I did have to take the bus and I didn't like it all. But he said, "No, you have a wonderful religion, you have to keep with it. Okay.

And I don't want for you, unless you feel, but you don't have no obligation to come in my 17

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 18 church. If you want to come, no problem, but I don't want you..." And I said, "Can I ring the bell?" And he said, "If you want to, Sunday morning you can ring the bell." So, I ring the bell and he introduce me in a Sunday, when I was at his place. The second Sunday he introduce me to all the congregation. Swiss people are very, very nice people. And they treat me like the son of the house. They give me aroom. I remember they did have a German Shepherd, who was trained. He was in the same time--I don't know how you call this--a priest who take care of prison people. And he used to go with his dog, in case one of the prisoner did go away, the dog is going to be able... He was a very, very funny man, very smart, very funny man. And I help as much as I could. I carry the milk, because they did have a lot of cow. So, I work outside of the school for three, four hour every day, carrying the milk from the cow to the company where they make the cheese. And it was really, a family. They want me to learn how to play piano. They did have a piano. And since I have my own piano and I play because of them. He always, he make me feel something I never felt before: the importance of knowledge. And this is when I start to read, this is when I start to write. I spend with them less than one year, but I think the foundation of my life was based on this time I spend with them, because they were so good and so hard. They were not... they were sweet, but they let me pass nothing. I did have my job to do and I better do it, otherwise... And it became normal with me and really I spend... I learn how to love nature. Nature in Paris, you don't know how to differentiate champignon...you know what...?

Q: Mushrooms?

A: Mushrooms. He took me to the woods, days, to say this one is not good, this one is good. Took the good one, brought it home, cook them, make a meal with it. I didn't know all this. I didn't have no idea. And it was very good for me, because it was a foundation of life. And every time up to this day, I think all the time about what they did to me as a kid. And I became a man because of them. And this is why, all the time, even like I said, I did go see them last, between "98 and "99, Christmas. And I couldn't find them, they moved. I called everywhere. But otherwise, every time I go to Europe, I go see them. We spend beautiful time, quality time, even if we don't speak together, he is the same. And she is the same. In my mind, she is the most beautiful woman I met in my life. She, the last time I saw her I think she was seventy-two and I think she was as beautiful as she was when I was a little boy. And he is the stronger man. It was really something. For me, it was a big chance to meet those people. And like I said, when I did go back and I found my mother. I said, "The first thing we can do, as soon as we get a little bit money, I want for you to meet." And I think it was one year later, I bought a used car and I took my mother and we did go see them. And they were very happy and I was very happy to see them again. And like I said, I always, any chance that I did have to go, I did go see them, because I felt this... we were not family, but it was more than family. It was a good, a good thing. It's a good memory.

Q: Do you ever think about the irony of that...?

A: Yes. Oh, gosh. Life is irony, the whole life. When.... you know, when you become old, older than younger, life is an irony. Why this happened? What is the purpose of life? What is the reason of life? We don't know. But I think everything is written, you in your life, another one in another life, everything is written. I say since a long time, we all have a ticket in the pocket.

18 http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 19 You have the date of birth and there is no date where you're going to go, to be gone, but really there is one, but you don't know it. And it's funny, because I say to a lot of my patients, we celebrate birth of people, but we don't celebrate death and death is something of life. It's the end of life. If you did have a bad life, you're going to have a bad time to re-incarnate in a good life.

But if you look your life and you said yes, I did have bad time like everybody else, but the good time were good. And when I remember all this, all the good time, it was wonderful. It's experience. And in life, you cannot have all the time, good time. And on top of this, I say this too, some of my good patient with whom I have a good exchange, money is important, but compared to destiny, money is nothing. Destiny is what is going to make you what you are.

You are going to be able to enjoy anything: a fruit, a good meal, good company. And when I say good company, feeling you are with somebody, friends, and you are on the same level. You can exchange... if you say something a little bit different, people are not going to laugh. They are going to say either "What do you mean by this?" or they're going to say, "I know what you mean. I feel it, what you feel." And this is the purpose of life, but it's not every day you find things like this and it's not every day you are in tune with things. But when you are, it's wonderful and the rest, well, you have to do with. You receive a bad bill, you have a bad problem, you have a flat tire in the middle of nowhere... it's tough, but you have to deal with it.

You say, okay, I will remember next time I'm going to have a good time, this flat tire. It was bad, but in exchange look what good time I got now. And I think it's a good philosophy.

Q: As far as the idea of destiny, do you apply that to the Holocaust? Do you think that the Holocaust, I mean when you mentioned being predestined, having something written down... do you think of the Holocaust that way?

A: Yes, yes. And it's very hard, maybe it's because as a Jewish boy I can say this. You know, Jewish people accept Jewish jokes from another Jew, but if another one does the jokes, they don't like it. Did the Jewish people deserve what happened? I don't think so. Nobody deserve to suffer this way, but in the whole world, in the whole idea of human people, is it something who is going to serve humanity? I think so. I think so. How many people, who were in Auschwitz, in all those camps, are going to be able to use it? Minority. But the one who are going to be able to do it are going to bring something and we don't know where we're going to put this. On the newborn? There is a new book, written by a Rabbi, and people don't like him very much, because he write, he wrote this book about reincarnation. And he said a lot of people call him, write to him and they say, "I'm born in a Catholic family. I'm Catholic. I go to the church every Sunday. I believe on Jesus Christ and I believe in God, but inside of me I got this Jewish feeling and I don't understand why." And it's uh, how can I say, it's surprising. And from what he say, he thinks they were in the Holocaust and they reincarnate in another corps, but they got this knowledge and they want to explain this. Long time ago, maybe not so long, but twenty years ago, you never spoke about reincarnation. A lot of people knew about, but they don't want to say anything, because they say, "Well, they going to think I'm crazy." Now it is more open. Sometime when I feel people react and it's a small group... I give a lot of lecture on acupuncture, and acupuncture related to the human body and the illness of some people. And I go a little bit further and reincarnation and a lot of people react and say, "I felt this. I felt I was in another life. I cannot pinpoint, but I know this is not my first life." So, I think, coming back to the idea of the Holocaust, it served a purpose, which one, I don't know. But I'm sure it serve a purpose. If you say this to my brother, he's going to laugh for three hour, but it's okay. And I 19

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 20 mean, it's his problem, it's not mine. I don't bring any proof, but I know there is a purpose. Can it be another Holocaust? Yes. The same one we saw? No. It's going to be something completely different, but Hell is here on earth, so anything can happen. Anything.

Q: When you think in those terms, how do you, how do the Germans fit in? So... are they carrying out something that needs to happen? That is predestined? In other words, are they attuned with destiny in some way?

A: To answer your question you have to read a little bit about Hitler, which very few Jewish people want to touch. I read the life of Hitler. He didn't have any chance in life. He could not succeed to nothing. He was nobody. He came at the right time and somebody above used him. But he was nothing. Are we going to remember Hitler? Yes, for a long time, but not for the real purpose. Because who was Hitler? Nothing. Germany was ready. Germany need somebody like Hitler and if it was Hitler or George or anybody else, it would be the same thing. We speak about the devil. Germany, the German people at this time, did find the chief of the devil and everything was so simple to organize. You see in life, people who try to organize something, something small, a factory... they never make it. Because it's not the time and somebody above Earth, who's got the little button, don't push the button, say, because it's not for him. It's not meant to happen, not with him. So we are not going to move.

Q: So you can kind of think of the Holocaust as being Divine will carried out and that Hitler was an instrument of that?

A: That's right, that's right. Because the whole story like, and I don't... Rothschild said something one day, "For you Jewish people if you like it or not, this is the truth. You have the low level Jewish people, you have the middle level Jewish people and you have the aristocratic Jewish people." And it's true. All the Jew are so smart, all the Jew are doctor? No. What about the Jew who is a fireman? What about the Jew who is a police man? He's got the brain of Rothschild? No. We did have, I mean... we, they did have to show to humanity Jewish people are not the enemy. Because, example, Israel, you have prostitute in Israel. Jewish woman who are prostitute? You say this to my father, if he was alive at the time, there are Jewish prostitute?

He would say, "Never. Woman, Jewish woman never can be a prostitute." Yes my dear, there are Jewish prostitute. You have lot of people in Israel who are crooked. We are people and this should stop racism. And when you speak with... all black people are stupid? No. You have a lot of black people who are born in poor family. They don't know what is good from bad. They have a father, but they don't know who he is. And you compare this black man with a judge from the high circuit, who judge things? How can you? They are two black people. With Jewish people it is the same thing. This is why I think the Holocaust was made, one of the reasons in my mind, to show we are people. There are good Jew and you have bad Jew.

Q: What do you think some of the other reasons are?

A: About the Holocaust?

Q: Yeah.

20

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 21

A: Human race like atrocity. When they are... let's say you are on the road and there is a bad accident. I stop. Iam a doctor. IfI can help, I will do it. But I don't want to stop to see somebody bleeding, just for the pleasure. You have a crash of a plane. There was one big one in Paris a long time ago. Everybody come because somebody told them you can see a leg here and a head there. And in your normal mind you are going to say, "Oh, this is terrible." But when you speak with people, they love to see this. Why do you think they show so bad thing on TV?

Because people like it. I don't think it's a very good thing to show all this... it's terrible. They like it. When you see all this blood going out, this head split, the eyes fall down. They like it.

People are mean [laughing] sometime, but this is the way we are, and I think the Holocaust helped this, to show, you know... they did this, can we see a little bit...?

End of Tape 2, Side A 21

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 22 Tape 2, Side B

Q: Do you think people are learning not to see things that way, through looking at that experience in retrospect?

A: Ihave a friend, he was an attorney and he raised his child, his boy, in the religion. Not... but, he raised him as a Jewish boy. And the boy is a spoiled, what I called a spoiled American boy.

And his father insists for him to go to Washington to see the Holocaust museum. And he said, "Oh, I don't want to go there." He said, "I insist, I want for you to go see a little bit of what did happen." And I said, "So?" when he came back. And he said, "Well, he was not the same. He didn't have no idea. He heard Holocaust. He knew it was a museum at Washington, but he said, "It's a museum." But when he came back, it was not a joke. He said, "I didn't know it was like this."" And I think this is why there is a museum. This is why you have people working in the Holocaust, not to forget. Not to enjoy, but not to forget, for young people, Jew or Non-Jew, anybody, to see: This happened. This is not a movie. This happened, so you have to remember to do anything you can, we can, not to happen again.

Q: I'm pursuing kind of a metaphysical line of questioning, but do you think, so you feel like people have the power to make it not happen again?

A: Yes, they do, absolutely. If they know what's going on. Because if they don't know what's going on... When you see a movie and you know it's fiction, if you see it or you don't, it's not a problem. But when things happen... I have a movie from the camp. This camp was liberated by the English army and the English are very tough. They show, they took the whole, bigger than a village, I think it was about fifteen, twenty thousand people. And they opened where they put all the dead, the cadaver, the Jewish people who they killed, they opened this with a special machine and they forced every people living in the town to carry a dead body and put it on the truck to give them a decent burial. Don't you think they are going to remember? Yes, they will.

Because when you touch with your hand, a dead body, you remember for the rest of your life.

And if we could make people touch people or nothing else, force the youth to go to a hospital here, in Lexington, Louisville, anyplace, once an hour, every week and just walk and see people suffering, they are going to be a little bit different. American youth think they are indestructible, you know? They got the power. They can do anything until they die. This is why you have so many people who cripple themselves. They jump from, with a cord around their feet, you know... "I'm the best," you know, the guy who jump with the motorcycle in Colorado. Okay, if the guy survive, it's okay, if he die, everybody should see it, because life is not a joke. Life is a gift. You can use it badly and you can use it intelligently, but just by jumping and so you see...

it's like the guy who jumped from the Eiffel Tower and he say, "Nothing can happen to me." And you know, he fall down and every stage, he say, "You see, nothing happened to me," until he reach the downstairs and then that's it. You don't... gravity is like life, you don't play game with life. Take a knife, stick it in your stomach and you'll see what happen. And everybody should know about the Holocaust just as a reminder. Justice in this country is too lenient.

Yesterday they liberate a man, who did abuse children. He got ten year and after five year, they let him go. He's going to do it again. What should we do? This is another discussion, but don't let him loose, because he's going to take care... he's going to take another innocent child. This man is sick. We have to do something about this. But don't say, "Well, you know, what can we 22

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 23 do?" What do you mean, what can we do? Let's us do the best we can, but do something.

Don't let a man wild with normal people.

Q: We'll have more of a chance to talk more about these things I hope, but let's go back to Switzerland. Before you joined the Ledermans, you were in a refuge camp for a couple of months, it sounded like.

A: Yeah, it start, it start... I arrived on the first, a refuge of civil, I mean March "44, the thirty of March, "44 and I stay until, one month about. After this they put me in a camp of refugee for the 25" of April.

Q: April 25"...

A: That's right, until May the 19". And after this I was authorized to live in Rances with Pastor Lederman. It was the May the 30", 1944.

Q: Do you have any memories of your time in those refugee camps?

A: Yes, Ido. It was not fun. It was very strict. We slept on the floor. I don't speak about the food.

We survived. But it was a camp. I mean, it was not a vacation camp. It was really very hard, but like I said before, it was all kind of people. You did have bad people. You did have all kind of people. So they couldn't do otherwise. But by the date, you realize it was not a long time, it was maybe two months. After what I saw before, two month for me was nothing. Because like I said, after this, life was great with Pastor Lederman. So, it was an experience again. For me, everything is an experience. When I'm going to die, it's going to be an experience.

Q: Did you cross legally into Switzerland?

A: Illegally.

Q: Illegally.

A: Oh yes, completely illegal. This is why they put us ina camp. Because if it was legally, I enter Switzerland, it was no problem. But it was illegally, because they didn't want to open the door.

They didn't want to, for anybody to come in Switzerland, because they didn't have any room.

Everybody wants to go there. So, it was hard and they did have too much people. So, they tried to push away all the people, until the last two or three weeks, the Swiss Army was on the border.

And then anybody who wants to cross, they shoot them. They didn't want to let anybody come in, because a lot of German put civilian things to come. They didn't want to let them in.

Q: What did you do with your days during the time in the camp?

A: In the camp? Like a prison, you walk around. You think about food. You cry. You fine if you know somebody...

Q: Did you know anyone? Did you have any friends?

23 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 24

A: No, no, there was no... I didn't know anybody.

Q: And did you have anything to do... Did you meet the Ledermans before they said "Yes, we" ll take this young man?"

A: No, no. No, no. No, no. They... this guy would go with this guy, this guy with this guy. How did they decide for me to go with Pastor Lederman? I don't know. But I know I was designed to go there. I did go there. And that's it. [Laughing]

Q: What was Mrs. Lederman's name? Do you remember?

A: I knew you going to ask me. And I can not remember.

Q: Maybe it will come back later. And you went to school there?

A: In Rances, yeah. It was a little school, you know, an elementary school, where I was not very good. The teacher said I don't do any effort to learn. When I think about, I know why. At the time I didn't know why. But when I think, you know, I was... I did go over my head, study for what? For who? You know, it's not like a man who is twenty and decides to become an attorney. He is going to study hard, night and day. But at my age, nine years old, you put me in a school to learn about mathematic and all this. I don't care. I want to know, where is my brother, where is my mother? I would like to know what am I going to become? How long this war is going to be? So, no, I was not a good student at all. [Laughing]

Q: Did everyone know you were Jewish?

A: Oh yes. Oh, he was proud of it. He was telling to everybody... well, he introduce me, "This is my little Jewish boy." Oh no, people were very open and friendly. I mean, you know, "I got a Jewish boy. No, no, no, this is my Jewish boy." He was proud of it. The time was very good, I mean everything was... it was nothing, I can't say they were mean. The only time he was mad at me is one day, I touch his gun. He did have a gun and I touched it. And he was mad. He said, "Let me show you how dangerous it is." And he shot something in the room and boy, I never touch his gun again. [Laughing] They were very nice. I have really only wonderful memories.

Q: Did you make any friends with any other children?

A: No. Probably yes, but, you know, I left. And it took a little bit time before I came back, so it was... No, I don't remember anybody. I've been back to the little town and I did hardly recognize the place. It was people in the street and I was looking, do I know them? Do I don't?

Very hard.

Q: You mentioned that, that was the time when you think you started to get interested in medicine?

A: Uh huh.

24 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 25

Q: How did that happen?

A: Gradually, gradually I start to, | was very interested in the human body, the function of the human body and the natural healing, mostly. But it was very little by little. I cannot say it came one night, I wake up in the morning, I said, "I want to be a doctor." No, no. I thought it would be interesting to study and every day said, "Oh, but it's going to be hard. It's going to, maybe I'm not fit for this." So, little by little, and it came, and I start my study. Even when I start my study, I said "I will start, if it works, it's okay. If it doesn't work, I'll do something else." So, I was not saying "I will do it." No. "I will try, ifit doesn't work, I will do something else. I will sell refrigerator." [Laughing]

Q: Were you aware of what was going on in the war?

A: You mean when I was at mine, at Lederman?

Q: Yeah.

A: Oh yes, oh yeah. He told me everything. He explained to me, "Here they are. Here are the Americans, here are the Russians. They are going to circle like this." Like I said, he was a very intellectual man and he wants to tell me as much as he can. And he was treating me like I was his son. So, I have to be informed, if I like it or not.

Q: Were you aware of the scope of what was happening to the Jews in Europe?

A: I don't... not really. I knew it was bad, but I didn't realize really what was going on.

Q: Do you think Pastor Lederman knew?

A: I think so. He didn't want to talk to me about it, but he knew probably. I always suspect that he was Jew, with his name. It's a Jewish name. And, but one day, I said something like this and he didn't answer me, meaning he doesn't want to speak about it. And I stop right there, because I didn't want to be, you know, mean. If he did want to tell me, he would at the time. But he didn't say anything, so I didn't pursue. That's it. We stopped there. But Lederman, it's a Jewish name. Unless... it's probably what he did. His father was a tailor. So, maybe he became Protestant. You know the joke we do? How do you change a Jew to become a Protestant? You hit him in the back and he turn around and he protest. And he become a Protestant. [Laughter.]

Q: They should have told that one to Martin Luther, huh?

A: Yes.

Q: So do you remember hearing that the war ended while you were in Switzerland? Were you in Switzerland when the war ended?

A: Yes. And well it was in every radio, every paper. It was big celebration. At the same time it was very scary because, like I said, you know, the German tried to go away the best they could.

25

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 26 I don't think I left right away. It took me, maybe two or three weeks, maybe a month before I left. But I didn't stay long after I heard the war was finished. And did want to join my family.

And, but it was... yes, it was in Switzerland I heard all this. Yeah, I was there.

Q: Do you remember celebrating in any particular way?

A: No, no, no. Like I said, it was a little village where we were. And Pastor Lederman was a little bit sad to see... this I remember vividly. It meant, "You stay with us, we treat you like family and now the war is finished, you can't wait to go away." And at the time, I didn't know what to say. I felt bad, but my reaction was normal. And his reaction was normal, too. So, we both been right, but I want to go back and find how many member of my family are alive. But we never spoke about this after this; it was finished. We didn't speak about... anymore about this.

Q: So you're something like thirteen years old at that time, right?

A: Yeah, I think so, something like this. Yeah, twelve, between twelve and thirteen.

Q: And you just left on your own and forged out to look for your parents without any assistance?

A: Yeah, yeah. No, it's uh, I always been a traveler. I like to travel. I was used to, it was not... I've been to Japan five years ago. And I don't know why, at the last minute I panic. And it was because of the language. I don't speak Japanese. And I panic, and I did have to speak to myself and said, It's nothing. It is another land. And when I was there, it was easy, it was no problem.

Lenjoy. I got lost many time and I always found my way back. It was no problem. But no, it didn't occur to me to say, I'm not going to go back because nobody is going to take me. 1 was not used to have somebody who take me by the hand and bring you everywhere. I was used to go by myself.

Q: Was it something from before the war that you think was just in your nature or is this something that... ?

A: Yeah, I think it was in my nature. It's something... I'm shy on things. I know where I'm shy, and I know where I'm not shy. Every personality is different. I think we have to know our weakness points. And I, this was not on my weakness. It would be very hard for me to ask something on my favor, but I can ask anything for somebody else. But traveling never bothered me. I can go anyplace. | like to travel.

Q: I assume that during that time that you were with the Ledermans, you didn't have any word from your mother at all.

A: No, not at all, because, the only time I remember is, we tried to reach my mother by phone, but she was not home. I mean, she was not at the home where she used to be when I left her. In the apartment of her sister, they didn't have any phone. And it was a big mess. So, I couldn't reach her. The only way to reach her is by the Jewish Association, who knew exactly where she was and they sent a cable saying, "Your son is leaving Grenoble at this time and he's going to be in Paris in the gare at this time." And they were there, so.

26 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 27

Q: Going back to one more thing, you mentioned that while you were there at the Lederman's you started to read a lot and to become interested... do you remember what you were reading?

A: No, no. I don't... no. They did have hundreds of books and I was very interested on philosophy.

I like philosophy of everything, life, but I don't know what I was reading. It's too far away.

Q: Did you talk to Pastor Lederman at all about your interest in education or in studying medicine or any...? Did he encourage you in any way?

A: No, no. The only thing he knew to tell is, I... you know those little bugs who eat potato? Every time, every day we did have to go for an hour and collect this and put it in a bottle. And I used to say it hurt my back, so he used to call me Paul with the ribs who go up and down. He cannot bend. So this is why... he made fun of me, because he thought I was--and I was probably-- lazy. Some work outside I didn't like too much. I did like to go to the mushroom, but I didn't like to bend and put my hand on this mud and all things, you know. So, he always make fun of me. But he said, "You going to like to give speeches. You're going to like to speak in front of crowd." And it's true. I give a lot of seminar and I feel very comfortable. I don't have any problem with people. And if some people ask me question I cannot answer, I said, "I don't know the answer, but if you give me one of your card, I will find out and write to you." But we never spoke about what kind of study I'm going to do or what is going to be my future, what kind of job I'm going to do. No. Because I don't think, I didn't know anything myself. I don't have any idea what I'm going to do. But I know, the only thing I know is, they change my life.

They... the orientation was different.

Q: And do you remember reuniting with your mother and your brother?

A: Uh huh.

Q: Can you talk about that moment?

A: Well, Ihave to say something. I don't know if you're going to find this funny or different. I didn't have a very good relation with my brother, Gaston. Never. Never been real brother.

Why, I don't know. But my mother, when I was very young, I used to discuss with her, as long as she did have the power on me, it was okay. But when I grew up and because of the separation of this, my attitude changed. And my mother is a very, used to be a very strong personality. She wants to organize everything. Example, when I came to study chiropractic in the United States...

I was married at the time and my daughter was eighteen months old. And she didn't understand why I took my daughter with me instead of leaving my daughter with her for two year. And I said, I don't know how you can think about me leaving my daughter for two year, eighteen month? I'm never going to be her father anymore. So, we did have a very, very big discussion about this and for the time I was gone, she never spoke to me. And my brother, Bernard, reunite us when I came back. But the problem is, I was at the time, as stubborn as she was. And we were always on challenge. I like her, I would do anything for her, but I couldn't receive any order from her. And it's a feeling very hard to explain, because like when I open my office... she came in. She wants to organize my office. And I said, "Mother, it's my office, it's my place and 27

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 28 I'm going to organize it my way. You like it, you come. You don't like it, it's too bad." But until the end, she wants to be the boss. [Laughing.] And she never could, because probably we were the same way, you know? But so the relation was not, I saw my mother, jump on her, kiss her? No. And my mother was not a kisser. One kiss a week was the top, no more. So she stay in her, in her back, and I stay, and my other brother, Gaston, is... it was, is and was a very funny character. He looks good and it was enough for him. So, he was thinking more to buy nice suit, nice thing. And when I came back he was a growing man and you know, he didn't want to bother with me. I was the little boy. So, the relation was short.

End of Tape 2, Side B

28

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 29 Tape 3, Side A

Q: Okay, this is an interview with Dr. Paul Pressman, a continuation. It's now August 17", 1999, continuing our interview from July. And this is tape number three, side A. I wondered when I was looking over the notes. I took some, listened to the interview that we did last time and I took some notes on things that we had talked about, and one thing which stood out, that I didn't ask you about was, I wondered how you felt... you were talking about your mother's role in the resistance and discovering that she was actually a fighter or a captain in the resistance movement and that she showed you this gun that she kept hidden in this book. And I wondered how that effected your view of your mother and how, whether that moment was significant to you in some way?

A: Not specifically, because I think I knew my mother since a long time, since I was very little, I mean when I was eight, nine years old, we did have very serious question to ask to each other.

And I think basically we didn't, I didn't have, she didn't have any secret from me, so I was not surprised and not shocked to see what she was doing. And she was doing this very naturally. I mean, she didn't show off. It was what she was doing and that's all. But it was not something...

a big surprise for me. I never been afraid of gun. I never been excited over gun, but I understood. The question... it was no question in my mind. It was a normal way of life, knowing what she was doing before. And it was, to me, a normal situation.

Q: Knowing what she was doing before, meaning that...?

A: Before she used to go, at the time when she was in Grenoble, in south of France, she used to go and bring food, letter, visit French Resistance in the hospital. And those people were guarded by German. And she always found a way to go in, bring what she did have to bring. She did a lot of risky things, but the natural way. So, knowing this, after this, knowing she was carrying a gun, didn't surprise me.

Q: The reason that I noticed it and that I asked you about it, one reason was that the gun, the issue of your experiences with a gun came up a couple of times during the interview yesterday. You talked about the one time that, or not yesterday but earlier, you talked about the one time Pastor Lederman got angry at you was when he saw you playing with his gun. And then you talked about that other incident with your mother. And then you mentioned also that you feel safer if you have a gun now. And that was something you didn't talk about on tape. And I was wondering if you would talk about that?

A: Well, it took me a long time before I could train myself. I have now thirty year of martial art behind me. I always felt in general, the Jewish people don't like gun, don't like to fight. I mean I speak about the Jewish people in France. And it was a discovery for, I think, every Jewish people in the world when we found out Israelian soldier were one of the best in the world. And I was not surprised, I was happy about, but generally, even up to this date, when you speak gun with Jewish people they don't like it. Jewish people in general are not fighter, unless you go in Israel and they did what they did. And this is why I always felt very secure, and when I was with my godfather in Switzerland, I did like to have this gun close to me. But it was very hard for me to explain to him why. I always felt like if anything happened, maybe I'm going to die, but I'm 29

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 30 going to defend myself. I don't want to die like a poor animal. I want to die, but before I'm going to die, somebody else is going to die, too. It was my feeling since a long time. I was in very big contradiction with my brothers, but something I have to say... even I knew my father very little, my father used to carry all the time a gun. I didn't know why and I couldn't ask the question, because I don't think he would answer, but this is something I remember. And maybe it's because of this I always... But basically in my mind I think the reason I always like gun is because gun, you can defend yourself, without a gun, you dead.

Q: Did your father carry a gun before the war, too?

A: Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Q: So that meant when you saw your mother with a gun it wasn't so unusual, because you had already seen your father with a gun and it was something you were used to having around.

A: Exactly. Because my mother never touch gun before. I never saw, before the war, my mother with a gun. But when I saw her with a gun, it makes sense to me. From where we come... it's funny because we were four, five brother and we were so different. The only one I know the best is the one who stay alive now. And he is so different, like I said in the tape before and he's not a fighter. He's a good man. He's not a fighter, and the only reason he came back is because he was lucky. And you can... you know, in front of so many SS or Nazi in the camp, you don't have a... if they decide to kill you, they will kill you anytime they want. So when he came back, he came back because he was lucky. But my brother was not a fighter and I am a fighter. Like I told him many time, if I was in a camp, if they took me in Auschwitz, I wouldn't survive an hour. They would kill me right away. But the same idea, they would kill me, but I would kill somebody before I die.

Q: Do you ever feel critical of those who didn't struggle enough? There's been a lot a criticism of Jews during the Holocaust, that they didn't struggle enough.

A: Well, it's always... was bad feeling for me, to see, like when in Paris they put together all the Jew in one big field, closed completely. It was hard for me later, to understand why they didn't do something. Why didn't they organize? The only time they organized themselves and most of them time it was Polish Jew, it was in the ghetto of Warsaw. This is where they organize, they fight, because they say die for die. We going to fight. But in France, no, because again we come back to the same idea, all the Jewish people from France said, "I'm not Jewish, I'm French, Jewish is my religion," which was true on the basic. But the German said, "No, you Jew.

French Jew, German Jew, Italian Jew, you are Jew, you have to die."

Q: And along those lines, you also mentioned last time that before the war and maybe during the war too, you thought of yourself that way, as a French person and then as a Jew. And I'm wondering when that switched that you really felt like, no I'm not French, I'm Jewish?

A: Well, everything changed when I saw they arrest everybody, young, old people. And they arrest them just because they were Jew. And to me it didn't make any sense. This is when I start to realize, I'm not French, I'm not American, I'm not Russian, I'm Jew. This is the only reason.

30

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 31 I'm born Jew, so they want to kill me, that's all. Like I told you before, look up to this day, what happened last week. This guy, who did go in California and kill Jew just because he doesn't like Jew. And this is when I said to the American Jew, maybe you are an American, but before everything you are Jewish. And they are going to kill you, not because you are an American, because you are Jew.

Q: Have you ever gotten into trouble with any people, with any American Jews by telling them that?

I mean you have a very strong opinion about it and some people might have strong... Do you ever get into arguments?

A: Oh yeah, all the time, all the time, because number one, I don't go to the synagogue. I don't go to the Temple. I, like I say to a lot of Jew, I'm Jewish by tradition. I'm not Jew by religion.

And when we speak about, I mean the way the Jewish people are here, they make it easy for them. They separate the traditional Jew, the Reformed Jew, and for me this make less sense than the rest of it. But sure, they don't... when I arrive here in the beginning, I did go to the synagogue to explain what was life in Europe. And a lot of people were laughing because they thought I was telling story. So, I quit going and they ask me why I don't join synagogue. And I said, I never join synagogue in France, why should I join a synagogue here on top of this? This for me is not a synagogue. This is a joke. You know, Saturdays is the Shabbat. Saturday Jewish people don't touch money, so we hire Catholic people to play the music, to clean the place, because we cannot work, because we cannot sing, it's against the law of the Jewish Torah. It doesn't make sense.

Q: And when you said that people here, when you talked about your time in Europe and they thought you were telling stories, were you talking about the Holocaust years or afterwards?

A: Holocaust, the way they arrest us, the way, even up to this day, you don't say you're Jewish.

Well, my name is Pressman, Pressman in France is Jewish. Goldman, Pellman, this is Jewish.

People ask me, well Pressman is German? I say no, this is a Jewish name. But we have to be careful even up to this day. And I don't speak about Germany. If you go to Germany and your name is Pressman, they don't speak to you. And a lot of people said to me when I was in Europe, they say, "Oh, this is finished." And one day, a guy did go to Germany, Jewish man and he said openly to people, you know, "I'm Jewish." Nobody talked to him after all. They didn't want to have anything to do with him. Anti-Semitism in Germany is as strong as it is now as it was before, the same way.

Q: We left off last time where the war had ended and you went back from Switzerland to Paris and you rejoined you mother and your brother, Gaston, and eventually your other brother, Bernard.

And you didn't have time to tell in detail about what happened from there. So, but you did mention briefly that you moved into your aunt's apartment, who had been killed at Auschwitz.

Can you talk about those, trying to reconstruct your and rebuild your life together in those few months after the war, in Paris?

A: Well we came back, we got together... This is where, like I told you the last time, my brother, we found out he came back from Auschwitz. So, he was alive. And we got the apartment, which was a very small apartment. It was a two room apartment for my aunt. And we did go in and we 31

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 32 start to try to get back the apartment we used to have before we left. And we got it back. My father was an upholsterer and he did have a factory, very small, but a little factory. We got it back, too.

Q: What was the name of it? Sorry to interrupt.

A: You mean...?

Q: The factory that your father owned.

A: His name was Joseph Pressman, underneath it was Tapissier. Upholsterer. And it was in the same street where we did have this apartment. So my brother, who came from Auschwitz, who did have a lot of training with my father, did reopen this and start to work again. And I was thirteen years old and I did go back to school, college. And when I graduate from college, my brother wants for me to go and work with him on the . And I said, "No, I want to study medicine." This was the joke of the day, because why should I become a doctor?

What... so, my brother, like I said, is a nice man, tried to help me as much as he could. And he helped me, but basically the whole family, cut a little bit between them and I, because what I would like to do, it was silly. For them it didn't make any sense. The only time they realize it was true, is when I graduate from medical school. And they said, "Well, he did it, with no help." I was working at night, and I was doing a lot of job. And during the day I did go to medical school. And when I graduate, everybody was very happy and we celebrate. And meantime before I graduate, I got married with a Catholic girl, not Jewish. This didn't help mine relation with my family. I got a little girl at the time and I was twenty-three years old. And I raised my little girl. I did have, like I said, a lot of job, but I was making a good living. And when it was, I think it was, I practice for about three, four year in Paris and I decide I want to learn about the mechanic of the body. And this is where I came and find out about United State and Harvard, it was a special course for the mechanic of the body. And I came by myself for two or three weeks. And this is where I found out, somebody told me about chiropractic. So, I did go to Davenport, Iowa, where I saw what was chiropractic. I didn't know. I didn't have any idea.

And the first time I saw about chiropractic, I said "Those people are crazy. Doesn't make any sense," you know, the spine, give an adjustment. And before I left they give me a book, which I have even up to this day. And I did go back to France, read the book and I said, "Gosh, this makes sense to me." So, I pack up all my thing, took my wife and daughter and came to the United State and did go to Davenport, Iowa, where they give me credit. And I study chiropractic, graduate in 1962. And came back to France in Paris and opened an office in Paris.

And I start to practice medicine and chiropractic.

Q: Let's slow down, because I want to get some more details about just the time immediately after the war before we go on. Was it, so you were staying in your aunt's house for just a little while before you moved? Is that right?

A: Maybe I would say a couple year, or maybe less. But it was not long. It was very hard to live, three men and my mother in a two room. It was...

32 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 33

Q: And were you surrounded by your aunt's things, who had been killed? That must have been strange.

A: No, nothing was left. They, you know, people stole everything. No, it was nothing inside.

Q: How did you feel as a Jewish person, survivor of the Holocaust, living in Paris immediately after the war?

A: It was a inside revolution on me, but I, I'm, how can I say? I'm very mean, if I want to, or I can ignore everything if I want to. And I thought I didn't want to be the fighter against the... like Don Quixote. And I said, "It's not going to bring me nothing. I better build my life, chose what I want to do and just go on." For the time being after the war, there were no danger anymore.

So I didn't think about the Holocaust, all the dead, why they die, how they die. Because of my brother I knew a lot of things from inside. But I did try to be in a neutral position. I didn't want for this to affect me. I registered the whole thing, but I put this aside and say I will bring it back when the time is going to be there. I don't know how other people do, but this was my way of doing. So, I'm not going to be bitter. I'm not going to be all the time hungry, not hungry, angry.

Q: Angry?

A: Mad. I don't, I don't think... I didn't want to forgive. At this time I didn't know the technique of forgiving. But I knew it was something I can do about this, but I was not ready to do it, because I didn't know what to do and how to do it. And like I said, my brother give us a lot of information, what happen to the camp. They was some fight, not fight, but my brother said a lot of secret things from the camp. And one day, my mother did repeat something he asked her not to speak about to anybody. And a group of attorney call my brother to ask him, did he say this?

And my brother said, "Yes, but I want to know how do you know?" And they found out and they say the truth, "Your mother said it." And I was there when he came back and he say to my mother, I ever going to speak to you anymore about this, and if we have to go to court because of what I told you, I will deny everything. And I'm going to tell you, you a liar. Because what happened in camp, have nothing to do with this world. I told you this because you my mother, but I don't try to... he said, "I don't try to protect anybody. But you cannot judge us." And hmmm, to me it makes sense.

Q: What was it that he told her? Do you know?

A: It was... it was something bad, because the guy was alive. And... and I mean, he survived, he did something very... you know, a piece of bread in camp is a question of life or death. And when you say this now, what is a piece of bread? Well, you got this piece of bread, you survive.

You don't have this piece of bread, you die. So, who are you people, to judge us, because somebody stole a piece of bread off of somebody who was dying? Any way he will die. So the guy... and nobody said anything. And he explained this to my mother, but she shouldn't repeat this thing. Because... and this was a little thing, you know... I mean...

Q: So, the lawyers got involved because... why? Why did the lawyers get involved?

33 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 34

A: Because it was Jewish lawyer and most of them came back from Auschwitz, but they been in Auschwitz for maximum a year, which was nothing. But when they came back, you know, they want to show, "We are lawyer, now we going to judge people who were mean, bad in camp." Because if you know the story about the camp, the German, the SS were very, very few. Let's say in a camp of two thousand Jew, there were fifteen SS in uniform and they give order. They say, "You are the Kapo of this room. There is two hundred people here. You are responsible." You say, "I don't want to"--Boom. "You are going to be the Kapo, you don't want to be... so you are responsible of this two hundred people. Tomorrow morning I want ten Jew on the floor dead. I don't care the way you do it." So.

Q: Did you have, did your relationship with your brother Bernard change very much after the war, after he had been through these experiences in Auschwitz?

A: No, it didn't change because I didn't know him very well. He's much, I mean, you know, he's older than I. I didn't have, until I think it was two years ago, he got an interview in Paris from a French television. And he give me a tape and I came here and | listen to the tape and I was so surprised. I thought I knew my brother, but I didn't know him. And I don't judge him, but we are so different. He takes things one way. I told him one day, "I think you are a Buddhist." And he said, "Why?" I say, "Because Buddhist is not a religion, it is a way of life. And Buddhist look on the floor and behind what he see on the floor and the rest he doesn't see. The only thing is what is on the floor, that's all. And this is why you survive." Because the tape he was doing, the interview he did on the French television, I thought to myself, we didn't live with the same parent. It was, you know, he was telling, we did have a normal life. Sure, we felt anti-Semitism around us, but it was not so bad. And I said to myself, we didn't lead the same life. We didn't go to the same school and we didn't see the same thing. So, I did go see friend of our age, my age, his age, and I ask question. He said, "No, your brother is different. He's a very sweet guy.

He's a good man, but he see things completely different." I spend my Christmas with him, the last Christmas, "98, "99. And I did something. I spoke with him for an hour and I trying to explain to him, how, what is technique of forgiveness. He was mad. He was so mad. And I said, "Understand, forgiveness is not to forgive what they did, it's just to save yourself. When you forgive them, at least you can breathe a little bit. Right now, every night you cry, you scream, because you are in the camp now. If you forgive, let them worry about their problem, but get rid of it." What did I say? So, he send me, even two weeks ago he send me a book I couldn't find here. And it is in French. I like to read in French. And on the side he wrote, "Try to understand why I cannot forgive." We have two different way of thinking and until the last minute of his life he is going to cry and be mad, but he doesn't want to. He doesn't want to help himself. This is his life.

End of Tape 3, Side A 34

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 35 Tape 3, Side B

Q: Okay, this is tape three, side B. When you say the technique of forgiveness and learning about the technique of forgiveness, what do you mean?

A: When I was in France, on my spare time when I was a student of medicine, I learn hypnosis. I was very interested in hypnosis. I put a lady through surgery under hypnosis. And you have a lot of technique. And mainly this technique of forgiveness, which I didn't know before and I was very happy to learn and practice this first on me. Every time I was mad at somebody or things I didn't like, I did try to forgive the people I was speaking, I mean not openly, but in my mind. And this way it was easy for me to be able to discuss with people. Some people have a natural way of being patient. I'm not patient, so I did want to find something who is not going to make me patient, but make me a normal human being. And those technique of forgiveness is so... we hear this in the Catholic religion. Forgive and God will forgive you. I always say to a lot of people, I don't need any church because if I have a problem, I speak with God directly. It is fifty percent joke and fifty percent true, it goes together. Because another human being like me, ah, how intelligent he can be? What can he do with God, I cannot do directly if I want to do it? And this forgiveness came back to me. And one day I was in a course of hypnosis and the teacher said, "Today we're going to speak only about forgiveness." And I thought, God, this is great, and I learned every bit of it. And I practice this with me and with my patient. And it was wonderful, because people used to say, "I didn't think this way before, but now it make it so easy." And I thought to myself, I know, because I practice the same way for myself. The more I can forgive things, easy my life is, and I come back always to the point zero. If you let, if you do a mistake and you go too far with this mistake, it's very... longer you keep with, harder it is to come back. So, try to rectify the mistake as soon as you can, so this way it's going to be much easier to work on it and it's going to be quicker. So they teach you every time at night before you, when you go to bed, before you go to sleep, try to go very fast on your day and say, "Okay what happened today? What did I do that was not good?" So you try to forget yourself by being sorry and said "I'm not going to do this any more. I'm going to try to be better," and also vice and versa, one way or another way. It's amazing the way it works. It's something very simple.

The only thing is, if you are willing to do it, it's perfect. If you don't want to do it, it's very hard.

And this is why, I try. I stay about two weeks with my brother. I said, "Bernard, I'm sorry.

You're going to be mad, if you want to throw me out from your house, you do it. But every day I'm going to speak to you about forgiveness, because this is your only savior." But he laugh, he became red sometime, he left the room, he took witness, friend. Okay, he took friend who thought like him. And you know, if you ask a friend, after all the story of the camp, he survive and he say, "Bloing (ph), face to face, can I forgive this?" People say, "No." But this is not what I ask him. I don't ask him to forgive this way. I want for him to forgive them their fault, they are the worst people. He is not a bad man. So forgive them for what they did to them and to you. But it was... I don't think... maybe I put a little something on the ground, but for him it is too late. And I think, it's not nice what I'm going to say, but I think also he enjoy a little bit his situation.

Q: Enjoys being angry?

35 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 36

A: No. He enjoy to be, people feel sorry for him. And he likes this. I think so. But there is a lot of point I cannot clarify with him, because I don't want to be pushy. And he's not going to tell me anyway, because at the same time with him, Maurice was with him. And Maurice die when they were in Auschwitz. So...

Q: Does he feel guilty about that?

A: We cannot speak about that, so I cannot be pushy, because... The only thing I know, the only little thing, and he cannot hide this, because he said it. You know, when you say something, it's very hard to retract. When they arrive in Auschwitz, I don't remember the date, but they shave every man and woman. And they put them in a big room. And it was not very light, it was very dark. And one moment he was walking and he turn around and he sees this guy on his back all the time. And he say, "Why do you follow me all the time like this?" And he said, "But "m Maurice, I'm your brother." He didn't recognize him. He was... and for me, my interpretation is, he was already gone. He put a wall. Not because... because the situation. He said, "Okay, save your life. I save mine." This is the way I felt it and this is the way I understood. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. But this is the way I feel it. Because in any situation if you don't recognize your brother, your sister, your mother, it's like what I said before. Looks on the floor, "Everything here is mine, after this, I have nothing to do with it."

Q: Was it difficult for you to... you talked about how empowering it was to learn this technique of forgiveness. Was it really difficult to get to that point where you're forgiving not only people within your own life, but applying it to this larger situation of the Holocaust?

A: Even... even now it's hard. It's not... it's not easy. It's not easy to forgive. You can forgive little things. But when it becomes so important, it's not easy. Because you have to visualize, and I'm good, I know how to visualize. And when you see the whole picture... a month ago I read about this man in United State, who help people to die. I don't remember his name.

Cavajohn, something like this.

Q: Kevorkian.

A: Kevorkian. Somebody ask him, doesn't he feel like a Nazi by doing this. And I don't judge. I don't judge him. This would be another discussion. But they ask him, he doesn't feel like a Nazi? And he said, "What the Nazi did to the Jewish people did help other people after the war." Meaning I don't like what the medicine does with rats, with animal, the experience they do, because I don't agree on this. But when you judge human being to do experience like rat, there is no end. I don't know why he said this and what is the basic idea. Maybe one day I am going to have the chance to speak with him. But what did he mean by this? In Germany, Der Spiegel did an article of a doctor, who was a doctor in the camp Auschwitz. He's alive now. They made an interview and they asked the question, "Do you feel guilty about what you did?" Because they did horrible experience. And he said, "No, I did my job." And people said, "What do you mean by your job?" He said, "I was military. They put me in a camp, but I save a lot of Jew. I kill a lot, but I save a lot. And everything we did, helped for this generation." So, the question is, is he guilty? Is he not guilty? He sleeps every day. He doesn't have any problem. Is a 36

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 37 normal human being able to sleep after killing healthy children, woman and man? It's a big question.

Q: Do you have any answers for it?

A: No, no, no. Because I found out in any case, it's very hard to put yourself in somebody else body on a case like this. What would I do, if as a Jewish doctor, put him in a camp. What would Ido? What road would I take? I don't know. I want to survive? --Maybe. I don't want to survive like a killer, I die. But what would be my position? I don't know. I don't have any idea.

It's hard.

Q: Do you remember when you first realized that you had a deep interest in medicine?

A: From long time, when I was nine years old, I was very interested of the... and I won't say to save people, but just of the science of medicine, of the human being. I'm, I don't think I'm such a good man to say it was to save people. I don't think so. But I was interested on how the body is made, why does the body react the way it is? And this is why I did go to acupuncture, because acupuncture made me discover a lot of things I didn't know.

Q: Do you remember any significant moments when you realized that? Something that happened to you that made you say, "Ah, I really want to study this"?

A: No, no, because I'm a bad student. So every time you said the word when I was young, about studying, go to school and buy book and read book... I said, "Oh, I'm not going to do it." But I did it because I was interested on medicine. But I was not interested on... my average, medical school, every school I did go was between seventy-eight and eighty. I never made a hundred.

Q: When did you, so in the time after the war when you were in France and you were attending school again, did you have the... how long did it take before you had the idea that you wanted to become a doctor and do you remember how that happened?

A: Like I said, I was nine years old when I said, I will be a doctor. And all my path was on this direction. But you know, when you are nine years old... I have a patient, who came, a woman, came with a little boy. And very, very wealthy people. It was in Paris. And the boy was maybe five or six years old. And I said, "What do you want to become when you are to be older?" And he said, "I want to drive a garbage truck." And I said, "Why a garbage truck?" And he gave me a good, very interesting explanation. And much later, I found out he was driving a garbage truck. He was eighteen, nineteen. Sometime you don't know what drives you, why you want to do something and this is when I say God is so strong. Because sometimes God say, he wants to be a garbage driver, let it be. And he open every door he can. And the guy is very happy. We need people drive truck, drive garbage truck. We need fire people. We need policemen. So, why not? The funny part is, every time I... I used to take anybody who wants to have hypnosis, they want to know what they were in another life. Because everybody think they were king, queen, princess, you know? But I said to the people, "You know, there was a few King, but the majority were people working. Why don't you think you'd be a normal human body working to make a living? You have more people who make eighteen, twenty thousand a year in United 37

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 38 State than people who make a hundred fifty thousand. But in another life, you want to be the one who make a hundred and fifty thousand?" [Laughing. ]

Q: What was it... have you always believed in God?

A: Always, always. God was always there with me. I have to, I have to be very, very honest. And if he didn't have the time, he send me somebody to help me. So I never, never worry about, and even now, dying. Dying for me is a normal end. The same way when you believe in reincarnation, you know what is to be born again. And in the same time, when the time comes, it's the end. And say, I don't know the word in English... wise Indian, native from United State, they know exactly when they are going to die. They say good-bye to all the family. They go to the mountain, they pray God and they die. The family come the day or two days after, take the body and burn it, because this is the ritual. Now, people said, "I don't want to die." Why? If it is the time, it's the time. You got a ticket in your pocket. You have your date of birth and you have a blank. The blank is when you die. Okay, suddenly the date goes on, it's this day. And go on. [Laughing.]

Q: Can you describe your... this is going to be a difficult question, I think. Can you describe what you think of when you think of God? What do you think when you say, I've always believed in God? What does God represent to you? What does it mean?

A: Very complicated to say. Some time, some time to make it easy on me, it's a body. I speak with somebody, but sometime when I sleep... this is the real one, the real McCoy, because it comes like a voice. And in the morning, it happened to me not long time ago, I don't know if it was a dream or did I see it, did 1 wake up? It's very, very funny, but one thing I can tell you, it's very comforting. I mean, I never been scared. I never been afraid because I heard something or I saw something. Lately, lately, I live alone here, lately I see things passing. Or I'm in the kitchen and I see a blur of something. Pfft. So, I say to myself jokingly, maybe soon it's my time. And it's possible. And it's going to come. So, now, later... but it's funny, because lately I see, maybe you are going in a few month or a few weeks, you're going to hear, "Well, he pass away." You got this on your tape saying, "Well, he spoke about it." And it's nothing to be scared of it.

When come the time, come the time. You know people die forty years old. I'm sixty-seven. I did have a good life with the good and the bad, but it's nothing, you know. I don't want to live until a hundred and twenty with nothing, with Alzheimer or thinking about how am I going to survive, or... God is wise, he knows when to tell you to come back. And if medicine is strong enough to keep you alive, this is ridiculous. When somebody has to go, let him go. The best way, but let him go. And when it's your time, it's time. It's nothing to be scared of it. I be back. [Laughing.]

Q: So, you're, tell me if this is right. Your God, your idea of God or your perception of what God is maybe partially comes from your Jewish tradition, but partially comes from your own instinctive sense. And then maybe from other religious traditions, too?

A: From the little I know about the Jewish religion, Jewish people, when they die, it's finished.

There is a God, but reincarnation, Jewish people don't believe in it.

38 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 39

Q: Except for Hasidic Jews. And I don't know if modern Hasidic Jews do.

A: But the old basic religion, when you die, that's it. It's finished. I don't think this come from the Jewish religion. On top of this, I don't have any training with the Torah. Never read the Torah.

Never read the Talmud. I don't have any knowledge about the Jewish religion, neither from any other religion. Everything is by feeling. And God is always present. When you do good thing.

When you do bad things. Sometimes it's a little bit annoying to have this presence with you.

When, when you have sex, you want to be alone. [Laughing.] You don't want to have somebody who look over your shoulder, but it goes with the price. But yes, I have a relation mostly constantly. I'm not going to, you're not going to see me in the streets screaming "I saw God!" No. But I have a feeling. I have this feeling. It's very comfortable. It makes sense to me, and it's very helpful. Because if I go back from my childhood until now, God was very good with me, because he never let me down. I never got, I've been depressed like a lot of people, but I got something who just come back in there, "Hey Paul, get up, that's it." And it's true. I can have a few bad days and after this the sun comes back and everything is okay. So, I've been very lucky, I mean spiritually. And I don't want to say this too much... I did have, when I was in France, I did have a lot of priest coming in my office. The reason is, my wife brother was a monk and he send me a lot of people, because I did have a lot of success. And if you want me, I can tell you a short story. One of mine patient was from Paris and his brother was a monsignor in Rome. He said, "You think this guy, you know, this doctor, can help me?" He was in bad, bad shape. And his brother, who lives in Paris said, "Let me ask him." So, the monsignor calls me and he said, "If I send you the plane from the Pope and I pay all the expense and you tell me your price, would you come for a weekend at the Vatican?" And I said, "Yes, but you have to remember one thing, I'm born from Jewish parent." He said, "God is Jewish." I said, "If you take it this way, any time you want, any weekend." So, he send me a plane and did go there, took care of him. And he show me my room and on the top of, above the bed was the Christ. And I said, "You have to take this out, because, you know, as Jewish, you tell me I kill him and trust me, I didn't kill him. And I don't think Jewish people did." So, he took it away.

We did have wonderful discussion. And when I came back, you know, he was very, very happy.

We spend beautiful hour of discussion. And he said, "If one day you have the vocation and God..." because we spoke about God and I told him my relation with God. And he say, "If God ask you to become a Catholic, would you accept?" And I said, "If God ask me, yes I will. But Monsignor, I'm going to tell you one thing, maybe it's going to be a Catholic, one more Catholic, but I will be Jew for the rest of my life." And he said, "I think so." [Laughing.]

Q: How did you gain such a reputation for your practice?

A: I think it's mouth, people... I did have all kind of people come in my office. Movie actor, little people, farmer brought me a chicken in a piece of paper in a Paris, in an office right in Madeleine, which is the best office you can find. They brought me cognac they did by themselves, like you call here moonshine. I did have all kind of people. And I will tell you the truth, if you stay with me here in my office when I'm working, you'll see all kind of people come in here. Policemen, firemen, fire people, ninety-seven-year-old lady, ninety-two, this lady comes every two weeks. She's ninety-two. She said, "You're the only one who keep me on my feet. Please don't go away before I die," you know? Everywhere I've been, I did have all kind...

39

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 40 I don't have a specific kind of patient. I have all kind. And | like it this way, because it's fun. I speak with all kind of people. It's interesting.

Q: When you were beginning to study medicine, when you started going to medical school, were you pleased by what you were experiencing, what you were learning? Did it meet your expectations, and your hopes?

A: Not at all. No. Medical school teach you the basic. And when you out of school, you become a doctor. And the basic, even the way they practice medicine here in the United State, it's not worse and it's not better than any place else. When a guy put a stethoscope around his neck, his whole personality change. It's like a cop, when he put on a uniform, he's completely different.

Take his uniform out, take his stethoscope out, take him out of the hospital... 1 know doctor, you can see them in the street and you want to give them a penny to go buy a coke...

End of Tape 3, Side B 40

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 41 Tape 4, Side A

Q: This is tape number four, side A. Say it again.

A: The most important is the people ego, who is important. It's like being the president of United State, if you didn't have the big ego, who wants to be president of United State. But doctor with big ego are completely different. They are not human.

Q: So, did you learn anything that you found really useful in medical school?

A: Oh, yes, the basic, I mean you have to... it's like, I like to play music and the best way to learn is to learn classic. And after this, you can play any kind of instrument you want because classical is so complete, so hard. You want to play Jazz? No problem. You want to play song? No problem. Medicine, you have to learn the basic. If you know how the machine works, you can do what you want after this. What I don't like too much in medicine, when people specialize.

You know, you specialize on one thing and you do one thing only and you speak to this doctor about something else, he doesn't know. I do only stomach. If you have a problem with your stomach, I know everything about stomach. But the problem is, in the body, the stomach is part of the body. Maybe the stomach doesn't work, and this is why I did go in chiropractic. Because with chiropractic I can do more than give medicine. And with acupuncture and chiropractic, I can do again more, because I can reach from every corner. And this is why I feel much more secure with what I know now than when I graduate from medical school, which I didn't know nothing.

Q: And when you said, you talked a little bit about, about your, the word of mouth that went around and that you gained a reputation. What was it that you were good at? What was your particular aptitude?

A: Patient likes to come in front of a guy, who have the time to listen, to sit down and say, "What is your problem?" And because I know all those little thing, I know what kind of question to ask.

You know? Ifyou tell me your problem and you go in some space in your body, I don't want to know for many reasons, I want to be more specific. I bring you back to the point, I want for you to be specific. So, I can go there much easier than you said, "Well, I have headache. I'm very constipated. When I get my period..." and I'm confused. And when you confuse a doctor, he does nothing. But when the doctor knows how to direct you: "Okay, you have this, let's emphasize on this place. When do you have this pain? Where do you have this pain? From where does it come? What time of the day? How many time a week do you have this?" So, you can bring all this to one thing. I put this with my knowledge of... I know if I'm going to put needle or I'm going to adjust your spine or I'm going to give you some light, natural medication or the three of it at the same time. And people said, "But it's a miracle." No, it's not a miracle.

It's knowledge. And this is the way I treat you, not because it's you, it's because I treat everybody the same way. I would treat my brother the same way, my wife the same way and you the same way. You don't like the way I do, go see somebody else. But this is my way of doing. If you came to see me, it's because until now you didn't have any success with any doctor. So, give me a chance.

41 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 42

Q: You talked about when you started to discover chiropractic medicine. What exactly was it that captured your interest?

A: Chiropractic? Chiropractic is based on nerve pressure. Everything come from the brain. Mine basic idea of psychosomatic is so strong. You can help yourself or you can destroy yourself.

There's a doctor, I saw this on 20/20 not long time ago. There's a doctor, he must be around sixty-five years old in New York. And he take care of any, any low back pain with a hundred percent success just by explaining thing for twenty minutes to the patient. And I was listening to, I didn't hear what he was saying for the twenty minute, but I understood the concept, and it makes sense. And he is in a hospital and all the other doctor laugh at him, but he's got a hundred percent success, because he teach you how to say when you wake up in the morning and you have pain on your back, and you say, "Oh honey, I think I'm not going to be able to go to work.

My pain kills me and it's going to be a horrible day." And if I can teach you how to speak to your back--and this is what he does--sure it's going to be hard to start, but little by little the pain is going to go away. Everything, almost, is psychosomatic. Cancer, and I don't speak about HIV and sickness like this, which is acquired. This is different. But I mean any, anything inside of your body is psychosomatic. You can make it worse or you can make it better. And if somebody for any reason, you have a baby, find a doctor who is going to be with you all the time. And if you have any problem, you be able to give him a call and said, "I feel this and this," and he should have an answer to tell you. "It's normal because of this or this or this, think this way and you'll feel better." You have to have a dialogue. The doctor is here to help you, to help your psychic. Everything is almost 99.5 percent psychosomatic. And if the doctor understand this and can direct you... You know a lot of people come to acupuncture and said, "I hate needle." And I said, "If tell you, you are not going to feel it." Okay, I can tell this until tomorrow and if I put in a needle and it's painful, he's going to say, "You lied to me. It's painful." But if the patient is on the table and I said, "Okay, I'm going to put a needle. As soon as there is any pain tell me. I take the needle out. But the way, I put the needle and where I put the needle, you shouldn't feel nothing." 99 percent people say, "I didn't feel it." This is one form of hypnosis: to do acupuncture. "What did you do to me?" Patient who come bent and they have low back pain. Put them on the table, start to massage a little bit the back and speak to them, tell them about vacation. What do you like, flying, thing like this. I adjust them, if I didn't speak to them, I couldn't touch them. You touch them a little bit: "Oh, it's painful." You put a little bit under hypnosis and give an adjustment and that's it. And the patient goes away. It looks simple the way I explain, but this is the way it goes. It's very simple. Unless I play the doctor, "You lay down here. I'm going to adjust you. It's going to be painful, but you have nothing for nothing. You have to suffer." They say, "Just a minute, let me think about." It's psychosomatic, I mean, everything is in your head. "I'm going to adjust you, but I don't know if I going to help you." "Well, so don't touch me. [Laughing.] Leave me alone."

Q: You're studying, you're in medical school studying western medicine which has a very different approach than the one you're describing right now. Was that difficult for you? That you have a very unconventional approach?

A: I didn't have any problem for one reason. I know God is going to put me in the right way, when it is the time. So I was not worried. And this is something else very important: is not to be rush by things. Everything is going to be in time. When I was very young, I want it now. And every 42

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 43 time I did this, they spank me. "Why did you spank me?" "Because you are too nervous, take your time. You're going to get it. Just a minute. Don't worry." And this was hard, but you learn. It's always the same. My father used to tell a story when he was in Russia. He said, a guy did have a horse and it cost him a lot of money to feed him. So, little by little this farmer start to feed him less and less and less, until one day he died, the horse. And the farmer said, "This is too bad. Just the day he was used to not to eat, he die." And for me is the same thing.

When I'm going to be almost perfect, I'm going to go away. Waste of time? No, it's not a waste of time, because it's going to serve me for my next... my teacher of acupuncture in China told me, "Paul, it's your first life as an acupuncturist. You okay, but you not wonderful. You need four life of acupuncture. The fourth life, you're going to be perfect. And this is going to be the time, probably, you going to stay there. You don't come back." And I said, "It's very encouraging because I have three more life to go. Okay, let's do it." [Laughing.]

Q: When did you start getting interested in acupuncture?

A: 1965. I got this book, one of the very, very interesting doctor. I don't know how you call this.

There is a group of Catholic doctor and I even don't remember the name in French. They are in black and white. The robe is black and white. This man is a very famous family. And he became an M.D. and he want to learn acupuncture, but the only way to learn and write a book about acupuncture, he did have to learn Chinese. So, he became an M.D. for a big family in China. He learned Chinese and he learn acupuncture. And I have his book with me. It was five, six year before I was born. Born in 1932, so it was "25, 1925. And he did a complete study of acupuncture. And I read this book three time and I said to a lot of people, if this house get in fire, the only thing I'm going to save is this book, because it's got everything in it. And I read the book and I said, "If I'm lucky maybe one day I'm going to study acupuncture." And I got a chance one day to go to Taiwan and I did go to the school. I start my study, came back with all the books. And since "65, let's say I start to put needle in patient five year later. And I still study acupuncture and I will study until the rest of my life.

Q: What is it about it that interested you? What did you read in that book, for example?

A: The mystery. Acupuncture is very mysterious. Yesterday my attorney call me for a patient of mine. They don't understand why I adjust the neck of this patient and she's got a low back pain.

So, I say to my attorney, "You have two way, either you answer the way you want to this insurance company and you say what you want or you sue the company and I won't charge you a penny to go to court. Because if this people think I'm going to speak to them on the telephone and explain to them by phone why I adjust the neck to release the pain on the low back, they are dreaming. I call you back in ten minute because I am with a patient." So, I hang up, call him ten, fifteen minute later and he said, "I call the insurance company, they settle." I don't know what happen. I try to get him before you arrive and he is not in his office. But I will know what he said. Because I said, "You have two way, but I'm not going to speak with this insurance." Sometime I'm very obnoxious... how do you call?

Q: Obnoxious.

43 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 44

A: Obnoxious with people who don't know nothing about medicine and challenge me. If you want to challenge me in medicine, put me in front of a bunch of doctor, who are going to understand what I am talking about. I can tell you anything and you're going to say, "Oh yes, oh yes." So, you're going to say "Well, this dummy, I don't understand a word he is saying, but maybe he's right." By phone? Why do I adjust the neck to a low back pain? An insurance company?

[Laughing.] So, this is when I become obnoxious. But acupuncture is very mysterious. Well, it's five thousand year old and it's amazing. I don't know how far we can go with acupuncture.

But my experience was more than rewarding for me, I mean medically. What I can do with acupuncture. It's amazing. It's amazing. I don't believe it myself. If somebody else would tell me what I know, I would say, prove it to me.

Q: Tell me, give me some examples. What have you been able to do with it?

A: Well, I did go this morning to put teeth and he drill. And I said, "I don't want any shot. Let me put a needle, acupuncture needle in, you can do what you want." And the guy is, he teach dentistry here at UK. And he say, "It's okay with me." So, I just put two needle and I said, "Go ahead." And he said, "You're sure?" And I said, "Oh yeah." So, he drill and he said, "You're sure you don't feel anything?" I said, "Listen, I'm human. I don't like pain and if it was painful I would have said, "The hell with acupuncture, give me a shot!" No, I don't feel anything." And this is the way it is. I have a young lady, who came and she did have suspicious part of the breast. So she said, "I would love to try..."--because she is a patient of mine of acupuncture-- "You said you can anesthetize myself with acupuncture." And I said, "Sure." So, we did go to the hospital. I prepared the whole thing the normal way and I said, "Okay, you ready?" She said, "Yes." So, I put needle. And the surgeon came, a little bit smiling. And I said, "Okay, cut." And he said, "You're sure?" And I said, "The lady agree, I agree, go ahead." He did the whole surgery under acupuncture. She said, "I didn't feel nothing." And I was looking, because I said, "My God, if she, if she start to scream, I have to put the mask, give her the gas. And I'm going to put her down deep." But she didn't say anything. Did go to China at Christmas, this last Christmas. And this guy, when I did go see my teacher, he said, "Would you like to see something interesting?" I said yes. He said, "I'm going to do acupuncture to an open heart surgery." And I said, "Can come?" And he said sure. So, we did go. Needle all over, start to see section open, bring the heart, massage. The guy is covered here and the surgeon said, "You okay?" He said, "Yes, I'm okay, but"--it was in Chinese, I didn't understand--""T would like to drink something." So, they brought him a straw with orange juice and he drink and he was completely opened. [Laughing.] It's very impressive, very, very impressive. So, it's rewarding and [ like it.

Q: You said that you lecture a lot and do seminars. On what subjects?

A: Acupuncture, but it's very basic, because acupuncture in United State is not in a high level.

They, I have a lot of article from paper where they say if you have a headache, acupuncture can help you. If woman have bad menstruation, acupuncture, but you know they bring it to the lower part, not very high. You know, when you speak about open heart surgery, they say, "Just a minute." They don't agree. But they are interested. They want to know. So when, you know, every doctor have to do twelve, twenty four hour, depend on state. So, they ask me to come and 44

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 45 when I go and I give a seminar sometime one-fourth of the class go away, skiing and swimming.

[Laughing.] It's no problem.

Q: I'm going to change the subject back to the time that you're in France after the war. I think you mentioned in the first interview that you were very anxious to have your mother meet the Ledermans once you were reunited with your mother. And did you go back with her to see them?

A: Oh yes. I did go back with my mother. I did go back with my brother. Well, I... every time I go to Europe I go to see them. I just receive a letter from mine, I don't know how you call this, godmother? And from what I understand he is not in this world anymore. I think my godfather die. So, she is there, she must be over eighty. So this, before the Christmas, this coming Christmas, I'm going to go back. And I try to reach her by phone to find out how she's doing.

It's not the same address, it's another address. So, I want to find out. But when I came back, I took my mother -- oh very quick after the war, maybe two year after war or three year after the war. Because I did want for... my mother was a very interesting person. She didn't have any, she didn't ever study. She didn't know how to write, to read. She was reading Jewish, Hebrew.

And it took her about a week, a week and a half to read one paper in Hebrew. But she was very, she was very smart, not by studying, but by instinct. And she... people like her. The only thing I found out, is when people don't have any background of studying to read aloud, when they get old, they lose this normal instinct of life. They are confused. And I did have a lot of very Ph.D.

men, who got Alzheimer's disease, so it doesn't go with... but most of the time, these people, like my mother, like my brother, they don't have the training of the brain to be able to hold on, on something solid. It's only by memory. They don't have any technique. And the older she got, harder it was for us to discuss with her. She was, imagine things, like one day she was watching TV and it was something completely normal and she got very angry. And I said, "What's the matter?" "Well, you didn't see what they did on this TV?" And then I realize, well, she didn't understand and she got mad. But otherwise, she was a very interesting person. I cannot speak about my father because I was too young when he died. But it, she was, she connect with my godfather when we did go see him, because my godfather was also very, very educated, a very interesting, wide idea of the world. And they did have, I remember a very, very interesting conversation, in a high level, not "It's a nice day today. The food was good." It was... and mine, his wife of my godfather, she was a teacher. I was in love with her, because she was, I think, the most beautiful woman in the world. She was smart. And I was afraid from her, because she was a teacher. At my age, a teacher you don't fool around with. But I saw her later when I was a growing man and she was older and she was the most beautiful woman I had met.

[Laughing.]

Q: When you call them your godparents, was there any formality or are you just calling them that because... was there any formal way...?

A: No, because I think they deserve to be called this way. In French it's parrain, and her it's marraine. In English it's godfather. And I don't know if we have a name for a woman. But every time...eh?

Q: Godmother.

45 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 46

A: Godmother? Every time I used to write to them and even lately, I always, "Cher Parrain, cher Marraine," because this is what they are for me. They were very generous with me and I try to be as much as I can with them.

Q: Did their influence continue to be very active?

A: Yes.

Q: So your relationship was... can you describe how your relationship grew after you stopped living with them?

A: They were mine, smart parent. What my father and mother couldn't give me, because they didn't have it. My mother spoke to me. She tried to be as much as she could, but they never study and they didn't know... you know, when I said I want to become a doctor: "Why? We have a good business. We do upholstery. You can make a good living. Why would you like to be a doctor? We don't have any doctor in the family."

Q: Did you tell the Ledermans when you wanted to become a doctor?

A: Oh yeah.

Q: Yeah. And what was their response?

A: Oh, he was, my godfather was very, very, both of them were happy. Because like I told you, I was a poor student. And they said, "I don't know if you are going to make it, but it's an excellent idea. Do it." They both were very, very, very happy. And...

Q: So, did you keep in touch with them by writing letters? Or did you visit them a lot?

A: Both. I wrote letter all the time and every time I did go to... I left France in 1960, 1983 to come in the United State. But otherwise I was in their place anytime. They, they, you know, he was a Protestant priest and after this, he likes to show people he was poor. It was his way to... he was not poor, but he wants to show. So, he bought a little place on the border of the lake, but on the other side to go to his house, you have to cross the railroad. And I... he was very, very severe.

And one day, I ask him, you know, very... "Why did you buy so close to the railroad?" "I'm not rich. I'm poor. I'ma priest. I cannot afford to buy like the rich people, so thank God I can have this thing." I never ask anymore. [Laughing.] Because, he was, you know, this is what I can afford and that's it. But he was a good man, very, very good man. Very, not religious like a priest, you know, not the man... one day I did go to, you know the Club Med? It was my last year in medicine and they ask for a good swimmer to teach water ski and I was good on water ski, so I put my name and I been to Greece to teach in Club Med for two month, for the summer.

It was beautiful, because it was...

End of Tape 4, Side A 46

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 47 Tape 4, Side B

Q: This is tape four, side B. So, you were saying about the...

A: This group of Swiss people came and we start to, and I said, "You know, my godfather is from Switzerland, from this place." He say, "We are from this place!" And he said, "Just a minute.

How is he?" And I said, I describe him. He said, "This is Pastor Lederman." And I said yes.

He's the only one to be like this. [Laughing.] He was known because he was very artistic, very wild and doing things, the way we have to do things. You know, you don't wake up in the morning. First thing you do, wash your face and shave. You cannot go on without shaving.

You know, he did have a lot of principle, but even up to this day, a lot of thing I do, I remember he teach me. I remember he told me, "Oh, you have to do this, you have to do this. No, no, no.

Don't do this, this way, do it this way." And without thinking I do it the way he told me. So, it means sometime when you have a guru in life, or parent who direct you the right way, you" ll remember things, and it helps you for the rest of your life.

Q: You mentioned a little bit earlier on, that you, did you say in around 1963 or so, you got married? You got married after the war, sometime in the early 1960s?

A: I think I was twenty-three.

Q: Okay, so earlier than nineteen...

A: Well, my daughter is forty-two. I'm sixty-seven. We have to count; I'm not good in math. But it was later, I mean like I said after the war I was thirteen. So, let's say ten years later I met this lady and we got married. I met, she was an artist, painter and medical school was next to, and the cafeteria was together. And that's where I met her.

Q: Did she, was there, did she understand your history as a Jew and as a Jew who had more or less had gone through the Holocaust and what you'd experienced with losing your family? Was that an issue?

A: No. No, she, it was a very, how can I say? Very Catholic family. And everything was going fine, everything was okay, until one day in Paris... we used to live a little bit outside of Paris, like you would say in Nicholasville, compared to Lexington. And one day it was a strike, no car, I mean, no bus, no train, nothing. And my brother-in-law, who was my age, studying to become an architect, did have a motorcycle. He said, "If you want I can take you to the school, to the medical school." And his school was very close, too. "You can ride on the back of the motorcycle." And I said okay. And we rode there and coming to a fire place, you know, the red light? The red light didn't work. He didn't see the car and this car hit us and I flew over and fell down, but I didn't get anything serious. He did hit the car directly and he broke all his mouth, his right knee. Bad accident. Bad, bad accident. They took us to the hospital and even to this day, my daughter told me this yesterday, they going to do surgery on his hip. But he did have bad, he lost all his teeth. He was stitched all over. He stopped studying architecture. With the money he touch from the insurance, he bought a moulin......

47 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 48

Q: Like a windmill?

A: Windmill! He bought a windmill outside of Paris, about two hundred miles from Paris. And he became a farmer with his mother, his father. The whole family moved there. But his mother never forgave me to be in the motorcycle, because she said, if | wouldn't be in the motorcycle, he wouldn't be so badly injured. So, since this accident, there was a bad tension between us, between the family and me. Did it bring to the divorce? Maybe yes, maybe no, I don't know.

But life became much more difficult, more and more. And even my brother-in-law used to get mad at his mother every time she bring up this. Because every time he never complained. Ever.

And sometime he was in bad shape. But his mother said, "Yes, if you didn't have this accident." And he say, "Please you stop." And he always defend me all the time, but she was, she was mad.

Q: Do you feel that, that was really the reason... 1 mean, was she looking for an excuse to be angry at you?

A: I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know. Very hard to know what's going on, on the head of somebody else. And we never got the chance to discuss. She didn't want to discuss.

There was no possibility. The father, he was a bird. He was not on this earth. [Laughing.] He was good man, but out. So, he never want to discuss about this. He didn't know anything about it. He didn't want to know about anything. And like I said, my brother-in-law didn't, never ever, ever said anything. Even when I was divorced, he always ask about me, what am I doing and everything is okay. But the mother was mean. She was mad.

Q: What about you being Jewish and marrying into a Catholic family?

A: We never spoke about. We never... my daughter is born. And we decide not to give her any religion. When she grew up, she met a man, got married. He was Catholic. She became Catholic. And... but I don't know. I don't know if the religion was involved or not. I don't know.

Q: Did you, you had talked about feeling anti-Semitism when you were living in France. Did you have any concern about that among your wife's family?

A: You know, you married somebody, you don't marry the family. For me, it didn't matter. I was happy with her. I don't have to love the mother, the father and the whole family. I don't know if it was against Jew or really I don't have no idea. No idea. Never asked the question. The feeling between my mother and them... I think they saw each other for my wedding and that's all. They never spoke together. They never got together. It's very difficult to explain.

Q: What about anti-Semitism on other fronts in France after the war? Did you experience any overt anti-Semitism?

A: Oh yes, absolutely. This is... even today, you can take the subway and on the subway in Paris, you can see "Jew go Home" or "Jew go to Israel" on the subway. It means, you know, it's like do we have anti-Semitism in United State? Yes. Why, we don't know. But one day I spoke 48

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 49 with a woman from Lexington, she's a doctor. And she does acupuncture and she one day asked me if she can come and watch me. And we start to speak about things, I don't remember exactly what it was and she said, "Oh, don't worry. The Jew, they have all the money. They have all the bank. Don't ever trust a Jew." [Laughing.] I didn't know what to say. And I said, "I have to tell you just now, I'm Jewish. And why do you..." and she said, "Oh, because maybe you are not like this, but the Jew have all the bank. They got all the money in this country. They are politician. They going to ruin the whole United State." And I said, "Well, if you feel this way, I think this meeting is going to be the last one." And it was the last one. But, you know, when somebody is... at this point I know I'm going to be with an enemy all the time. So tell me who is my friend, I will find my enemy.

Q: And you mentioned in the last interview that you didn't really feel comfortable in France.

A: No. I don't feel comfortable anyplace.

Q: That's what I was going to ask you, whether the United States is more comfortable?

A: No. United State is a nice place to live. It is much simpler than France. You can be independent, more than in France. You can have, they don't look at you like in France. They spy the same way in United State, but it's a different way. It's much easier. In France, they spy on you much more. And they don't have the law you have in United State. You know, the Constitution here, it's very well made. Freedom of Speech is very important. We don't have freedom. United State is a Democracy. France is a Republic. And it can take hour for me to explain to you, but I think you know the difference between Democracy and Republic. And here you can live... I was surprised how many people was killed in United State by crime last year.

Twenty-five thousand people die. It's a lot of people. We don't have so many dead in France by crime because we don't have this access of gun and all this. But there is no safe place on Earth.

And America is one of the most happy place you can be. You can live a normal life, almost.

You can buy a car when you want. If you are courageous and work hard, you can make money, enjoy yourself. But the limit is very short in United State. And what is the limit? My idea of limit is six hundred thousand dollar. Not everybody can save six hundred thousand dollar, but after six hundred thousand dollar--and if you want, one day I'm going to explain this to you-- everything, if you die or your husband die and leave you a million dollar, you're going to get six hundred thousand dollar. The rest goes to the government, no matter how you go. They... the IRS law are very, very well made. They give you this, they take this. They get you anyway. So if you have a little bit, if you are low profile, United State is perfect. I am a low profile doctor and it's okay. I like this life. I don't have any problem. But people who become rich, they do, they can, but they have to know how to do it. I wouldn't like to be rich in the United State.

[Laughing]

Q: Because you don't support the way that the government spends the money that you have to pay them?

A: Uh huh.

Q: What are your political outlooks, affiliations?

49 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 50

A: I don't have any political idea, because for the simple reason, anybody who wants to go, want to be a politician has to put money in his pocket. Because people are stupid. If people would be intelligent, they wouldn't vote. Neither for Clinton, neither for Bush, Democrat, Republican, not vote. We don't want you. I would vote for Perot, just to see what he can do. But he doesn't play the game. Perot is a smart man, but he doesn't play the game, so no there. It's not a dream.

But let's say maybe this movie actor, what's his name? Is going to present himself to become the President of the United State. Warren Beatty? No.

Q: I didn't realize...

A: Yeah. He present, maybe he's going to present himself. But otherwise... what Clinton did is a shame for the country. I don't think he deserve to be called President of United State. He is a...

but Bush was not better. "Read my lips, no more income tax," I mean, and look what he did.

And the people go, they're going to vote for his son, or they're going to vote for another jerk, moron, who is going to be the President. The people need to be whacked in the head. And it's okay. I don't belong to the people. I'm not a politician. So I enjoy myself.

Q: So you don't vote?

A: Yes I vote. Yeah, I vote because I think it's a duty. I vote, but just because I have to.

[Laughing.]

Q: So you're a... when did you become a citizen?

A: Oh, in 1983... "93.

Q: Was that a significant event for you to become a citizen of this country?

A: No. [Laughing.] No, no it's not. I think more about myself as a citizen of the world, more than a citizen of a country. It doesn't matter. I'm an American. I'ma Spanish. I'm an Italian. Pma French. What does it mean? I'm human.

Q: Why did you decide to come to the United States in 1983?

A: Well, number one is because I was a little bit tired about what I was feeling in France. And it was time for me to change and this was some feeling. I have feeling sometime and this was the time for me to go away. Even I did have a very good practice in France, everything was going fine, but [clears throat]--excuse me--it was time for me to do something else. And since before I left United State in 1962, I took the State Board of Kentucky. I came back in Kentucky to establish... and I didn't know where. I choose Lexington because it was a challenge. And I decide to open an office here and later maybe go to another state. Because when you come back in United State with a license, you have to stay at least three year in the state, before you can move to another one. I tried to have the equivalence of my medical license here and I found out Kentucky is one of the most difficult state to have a reciprocity of the diploma. So, I decide "m going to have mine, I did have mine license for Chiropractic, so I took my chiropractic license, 50

http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 51 renew it, and I stay here. And since 1983, I did have three different office, one in Versailles Road, the another one in North Broadway for at least fourteen year and now in Palomar. And it was very, very interesting. I like the state. I like the weather. A little bit cold in the winter time, but... I like horses, so I'm very happy when I can drive in the country and see all the horses. I have a lot of friend who have horses. I ride a lot of horses. And I travel a lot. I give a lot of seminar in United State and in Europe. I go to China once every five year to re-educate mine acupuncture. And life is great here. Right now I have a project. I don't know if I'm going to do it. But either I'm going to move to the Caribbean in an island where there is already a chiropractor. And I'm going to go see him probably at the end of this month, September, 1999.

Or if I don't like what I see there, I probably going to buy a farm in Woodford County around Versailles, like we say here. And have a farm with horses and my practice at the same time until Idie. So, this is going to be my project until the end of 1999. Thinking about what, I don't know if it is going to be different in the year two thousand. Everybody think about something different. I don't think nothing is going to happen, but anyway it doesn't make any difference for me. And this is my project. I was very happy for my move to come here. It's different. It's very, even up to this day since 1983 I'm back in United State, even up to this day it is very hard for me to adapt to the American life, but it's not too bad. And I'll survive. And we'll see what my project are going to give me and what am I going to do. But it's going to be a surprise for myself and for my friends.

Q: What's hard to adapt to about American life?

A: It is completely different. Life here is different. People live differently, they got different priority. I could say the same thing about France. They in France, they live different. They have different personality. Here, we don't eat, we nourish ourselves. In France a meal is like a big festivity. We take our time. Relation between male and female in France is much more romantic. It is much more something sensitive, sensual. Here it's much more difficult, woman wants to be man. Sometimes man become woman. It is, it would take a whole book to explain the difference between France and United State. But when you want, you adapt. And I go back to France at least once or twice a year. Every time I go, I enjoy. I have a good time. I read almost everything in French, because since I left France, I think poetry in France is beautiful.

And there is no problem, you always survive. You adapt and you survive. You don't have always exactly what you want, but where do we have what we want? It's another world and it's for me like another life.

Q: Why Kentucky?

A: Well, because when I left, I took my license in 1962. I took the first license open and it was Kentucky. So, I took my license and I didn't even wait for the results. Did go back home, open my office. And I receive my license from Kentucky and this is why I came back here. And when I came back here, I thought maybe I'm going to go to another state, but after a while I said, where can I go? It's nothing worse here or better than any other place. I'm not a California man.

I'm not a Florida man. So, it's pretty good here. So, I think this is where I am going to stay, if I don't go to an island.

Q: Did you know anything about Kentucky before you made the move?

51 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 52

A: No. No. Nothing. No. I knew there was a lot of horses, that's all. But otherwise it took me a long time to understand the way they speak English, but now I think I'm used to. A lot of people even now don't understand me, but it doesn't matter because they adopt me. I like them, they like me and we don't have any problem.

Q: You didn't have any stereotypes of what Kentucky was or what the South was?

A: No, I was surprised at the beginning a lot of times, because I didn't know people still using chewing tobacco. And I didn't know... well, when I was in New York on my way to come here, a friend of mine said, "If you go to Kentucky, they are fifty years behind every other state." I didn't believe it, but there was a little bit truth of what they say. But didn't bother me, no problem.

Q: Are you involved in the community in Lexington in any way?

A: No, no, I don't like to be involved in groups. I'm not a politician. I'm not a religious man. So, I look, if it was something I can do or something I can help, I probably would do, but I stay put. I stay on my backyard. I don't want to be too much involved with all those things, so. I'm in the back.

Q: Do you have Jewish friends in Lexington?

A: Yes, I have a few Jewish friend, but like I always said, they are American Jew and they don't know exactly what it is to be a European Jew, so we have a lot of difference. The main thing is, Jewish in Europe help themselves with other Jew, around here to be Jew for another Jew doesn't mean nothing.

Q: Do you feel that your experiences as a Holocaust survivor set you apart in some way from the Jewish community here?

A: You mean? I don't quite understand what...

Q: The fact of your association with the Holocaust and your immediate experience, losing family members and so forth, gives you a very different personal history than American Jews, in the sense of the fact that you've seen this incredible tragedy close up and felt the effects very directly on your life. I'm wondering whether, whether that has been a wall between you and Jews here?

A: Yes, let's put it this way, they are Jewish. They know what happened in Europe. They are interested for six minute, that's all, all the rest, it goes above the head. They don't feel like really they are concerned. Even if it looks like, but they are, you know: "It's just, it happened. We hope it's never going to happen again. Only if they start to touch Jewish people in United State, this is another story, but otherwise, we send--this is what they say--we send money to Israel, we help them. We have a clean conscience. We are good Jew."

52 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 53 End of Tape 4, Side B 53 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 54 Tape 5, Side A

Q: This is tape number five, side A of an interview with Paul Pressman. Do you feel that the Jews here in Lexington that you've come into contact with are naive?

A: Not only the Jew from Lexington, everywhere I did go... my name in France is unique, because there is no other Pressman. But every time I go in places like San Francisco, any place, I look in the telephone book to see there is Pressman and I found a few. I call them and there is no, no feeling. I don't... you know, they say, "Oh yeah, your name is Pressman, oh yeah, interesting.

Where were you? From where are you, you have an accent?" But we don't feel like... for example, let's say somebody, many time people came in my office in Paris saying "I'm Jewish, I come from Yugoslavia. I'm passing through here and I'm going to try to go to United State or Spain or place." "Okay, where do you sleep tonight?" "Well, I don't have any place." "You come and you sleep at my place and you're going to eat with me and I'm going to call a few..." And I try to put some money together and give it to this guy, so he can fulfill... when I came here the first time, I did go to a Jewish association, I don't remember the name, to introduce myself.

And say, "My name is Paul Pressman, I'm a medical doctor and I'm going to open an office." They lady look at me and she said, "I'm sorry, we don't have money to give to you." And I say, "Lady I didn't come to ask money, I just came to introduce myself." I left and never, never saw those people again. They send me paper and they wrote me letter. I said, "If this is the way you welcome people in your congregation, the hell with you. Stay where you are and I stay off." This is why since the beginning I didn't join anybody. I didn't speak with anybody and I stay in my comer. A lot of patient, Jewish patients, said "Oh, you should come." I said, "You go and you leave me alone. I don't want to belong." One day the Rabbi came here and he spoke to me and he said, "As a Jewish man you should at least belong to the synagogue." And I said, "You belong to the synagogue. You leave me alone. I don't want to see you anymore in my office. If you need me, if you have a health problem, I will take care of you, otherwise forget me." I didn't like the attitude. I didn't like the way they been treating people. And now suddenly, they take Jewish people from Russia and they give them home. Who do they think they show this?

For what? No, it's... for me, there are two kind of bad Jew in this world, the German Jew and the American Jew. I don't have any respect for the German. We call them the Yecket (ph). And what we call the Jew here, speaking about the woman, American Jew, the JAP, the Jewish American Princess. I don't want to have nothing to do with them. They can live their life, but I'm Jewish by tradition. I don't go to the synagogue. And they go to the synagogue. They do the Bar Mitzvah for the kids, but it's not my kind. So, I stay away from these people. That's all.

Q: How do you feel as a Jew living in Kentucky?

A: I don't have any problem. I don't have any problem. When people ask me what kind of religion Iam, I say "I'm born Jew" and there is no problem. There is no, "Ah, you're Jewish." No, no.

They don't say anything. We have to remember United State is based on the free willing of religion. Anybody can be what they want. So, you have, I think, about two hundred different Christian religion. Everything goes okay, is no problem. If there is no problem with them, it's no problem with me.

Q: Do you consider yourself a Holocaust survivor?

54 USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 55

A: Oh yes, oh yeah. Yeah. I don't, without being sent to Auschwitz, I'm the closest one to suffer and been suffering because of the Nazi and because I was Jewish. Oh yes.

Q: And is that an important part of your identity as far as, 1 mean when you get to know people for example, is it important for them to know that you are a Holocaust survivor?

A: No, no, no. This is something who comes if they are interested, we can speak about it. But no, this is mine, this is my life. I didn't choose it. This is the way it is and I'm not ashamed of it.

I'm not proud of it. This is the way it is. They say Jewish people are the chosen people from God. We pay the price. But it's okay. If in the next life, we're going to have another religion, maybe we going to be able to breathe a little bit and look on the other side.

Q: Do you, have you ever thought about... the public consciousness of the Holocaust has changed a lot in recent years. People have become much more aware of Holocaust history and much more interested in it, it seems, on a popular culture level, a lot of books, films and so forth. Have you been interested at all in speaking publicly about those experiences that you've had?

A: No, because my, the way they do it now, is became movies, to make movies. It's always very hard to make a good movie. This is a good subject. Books, the writer will write about another writer, who wrote something about the Holocaust. It becomes diluted. And I think... men like my brother, for example, who survive Holocaust, doesn't want to speak in public, because they wouldn't understand what he's got to say. I mean, they wouldn't... they say, that's impossible, you tell us a story. Story he told me, I know it's true, because he wouldn't lie to me. And he's not a liar. But I can put myself in the shoes of somebody who never heard about Holocaust, listen to what he's got to say. It doesn't make sense. It is the truth, but it doesn't make sense.

This didn't happen. It can't be done. So, right now, sure, more we do about the Holocaust Museum, the best it is because it helps for people not to forget. But it's the basic. Unless somebody is really interested on what happen and I mean Jewish people who are interested, they can find this someplace. But in public, you know... my brother did go to Germany in a school to speak about Holocaust and half of the class didn't know what was Holocaust. "What do you mean by Holocaust? What is it? A fruit? A piece of bread? What is Holocaust?" So. You know you speak in front of people about something they don't understand. They don't have a clue of what you talking about. They say, "What is he talking about? Did he make a movie?" Schindler List was something close to the Holocaust and it make sense. It was human.

Auschwitz is unhuman. You tell things about Auschwitz. It is not real. It's a bad dream. And you have people listen to... "This guy is nuts. He doesn't know what he is talking about." But this happen. So, right now, I don't think it's a good, I mean the best thing is to have museum and encourage people... my attorney here sent his son--he's Jewish--he sent his son at Washington. And when he came back, he didn't speak for one week. And the father said, "What's the matter?" He said, "I was shocked. What they did to Jewish people. I was shocked from what I saw." So, I think the most important is to send people there, children, the new generation, for them to see what happened. When I did go to Auschwitz, full bus of school kids used to come in Auschwitz to see the crematorium where all the Jewish die. And I think this is wonderful, because we should never forget what happened. But speaking in the public and 55

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 56 explaining things, it's not enough. You have to visualize. You have to see things. This is why the Museum is important.

Q: When did you go to Auschwitz?

A: Two years ago in March. At the anniversary of the death of my other brother. I did go with my brother because he show me every place he been. Where were the kitchen. Where was the, the hospital, or things like this. It was, it was very, very interesting.

Q: Can you talk more about what that whole trip was like?

A: Well, we left from Paris to Warsaw and Auschwitz. It was very short, because it's very close to Paris. And we stay in a crummy hotel, because this was the only hotel in Auschwitz-Birkenau.

We did, uh, Auschwitz is a military camp, military place. This is where there all the glasses from the Jewish people who die. The clothes, the hair, the shoes, the denture. And you see all this exposed behind glass. And after this you go in the barrack and wood where they live. And I think it is very impressive and it is real. The only thing my brother was surprised when we did go the first time and he said, "Something is different." The barrack is the same, the whole thing.

The grass, it was grass, high grass. By the time people were there, you didn't have any grass.

Why? Because they eat the grass. So, the little piece of grass on the ground was eat, it was food.

This is why it was different. But otherwise, the whole thing, the concentration camp, I mean the crematorium, everything was... there is a little lake in the middle of the camp, not very big, where they put all the ashes of the dead people. Below forty degree in winter time, this lake never froze, because of the grease of the human body. And a lot of things like this. It is, I think, a place to see. I think if l was an American Jew, this is the first place I want to go. I want to see what happened. But when you say this to Jewish people, they say "I have better place to go." I say, "Good for you."

Q: Was it an important trip for you and your brother to make together?

A: Yeah, yeah. It was very important to be together. For me to see where he was, where did he sleep, how did he live? What was the... everything is dead anymore. I have a lot of feeling when I go some place. There was no feeling, everything is gone. The only thing stay is the wall, the cabin, the wood barrack, but everything is gone. The spirit is gone. But it's very impressive.

This is where you see the railroad train would arrive and it stop right there. All the Jewish people did go down, the ones going to go to the gas chamber on this right, the one who is going to live a little bit, on the left. And, I mean, this is something you have to see. And I have to say, I'm very thankful to the Polish government, who are the most anti-Semitic people in this earth, to maintain the camp the way it is. It's very, very important to keep it the way it is, because, like I said, most... a lot of people have to see this. But they do a good job. And it's free, the entrance is free. And everything is kept the way it was. And it's something to see.

Q: Do you have anything else that you'd like to say or to talk about today?

A: No, I think we cover most of the path. If you think about something later and you want for us to meet again, it will be no problem. But I think now, we saw the overall picture and now it's 56

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.05*0002 57 going to be your job to put this together. And it was a very nice interview and I was very happy to do it.

Q: Well, thank you very much, I was happy, too.

Conclusion of Interview 57