Document

PAUL WOS April 8, 2003 Beginning Tape One

Q: Good morning, Mr. Wos.

A: Good morning.

Q: You're going to let me call you Paul?

A: Yes, please do.

Q: Yes? Yes? Thank you very much for letting us come to your home this morning.

A: That's my pleasure.

Q: Tell me what your name was when you were born.

A: I born Paul Pawel Xenon Wos. The last name Wos, W-o-s and apostrophe over S, Wos.

Q: Right. And your father's name was also Pawel, yes?

A: My father was Po -- Po -- Pawel, and my grand -- ma -- father was also Pawel. That's was little bit a problem home because if somebody call Pawel, we don't know which one. That's -- my family called me Xenon, that second name Xenon. In other words, I was known by family, by my friends, Xenon. In school I was Paul -- Pawel.

Q: And did they -- did they make the Xenon a nickname, Xenic?

A: Xenic.

Q: Yes?

A: Xenon, that was short Xenic.

Q: And when were you born?

A: I born in Warsaw in 1920, and December 22"C/. And my parents put in my paper, January first, 1921. This way I go in one year later to military.

Q: I see. That was very clever.

A: Yeah, I know that's couple days and not make difference.

Q: So let's talk a little bit about your family. I would like to get a sense of your mother and father and your brothers and sisters. Tell -- tell me about your fa --

A: I born in a family where mother was ann -- name Anna from home Shahofska, and my father pa -- Pawel Wos. And I born in a family where was four children, I was the oldest one. And next one was my sister Irena, and third was my brother Odin and fourth, Wanda. That's whole family, two sister, one brother, and me. We bo -- I born in Warsaw, and I study in Warsaw and finish high school in Warsaw and up to 1939, where war starts, you know, that's start literally upside- down. And up to 1939, that's was Warsaw uprising, I was sent to concentration camp.

Q: Right.

A: That's --

Q: So n-now we're going to slow down a little bit. Tel -- tell me what you remember about your father, what kind of a person was he?

A: My father was like mostly fathers, the best father. And my father and my mother was also very good, caring mother, and was on -- Father was very soft up to some point, and my mother was very strict, and take care of her -- her children very hard and very tight. And so was very good mother, very good father, not only for us, for everybody. And this part of my life I can say only some good thing about my parents. And Father was very hardworking man, my mother, too.

And we was raised in a house where was the order, and time where was dinner we were supposed to be on time, not one hour later. And during the -- a meal, we sit together, eat and later there's sometime discussion about what happened during the day, and what was good, what was no good, and we was very close family. And s -- that's about my [indecipherable] family. In our

family was also the very close sister of my mother, Sophia, and was not -- never married, and was very hardworking person, and still was very intelligent lady who like, you know, poetry, p -- opera, etcetera, etcetera. That's was some part of family where we was very many times with our si -- aunt in operas -- I know all operas for example in Warsaw, this was very nice place, very nice building, and that's was for us pleasure. And that's was close family.

Q: And you liked opera?

A: I like opera, I like opera.

Q: Do you remember what your first opera was?

A: I think so. First -- I don't know this -- Aida -- I think so --

Q: Aida?

A: -- for time -- Aida was for me very interesting part, special, the Verdi created, you know, this so nice voices, I like this.

Q: Did you also have a favorite opera that was Pagliacci, is that true?

A: Pagliacci? Yes, sure, I -- I was -- it's nice.

Q: So how -- how old were you when your aunt took you? Were you a young kid?

A: I was young kids because my aunt was -- her s -- or each year, four, five free ticket for the government people, for booths in opera, and normally was booths for four people, and I was kids, maybe 12 years old, 10 - 12 years old, I go like fifth one.

Q: Aha.

A: That's was a pleasure and a good tul -- the best location, and you know, the voices were [indecipherable] opera very good because international opera, and we remember this part very nicely.

Q: Wa -- when you describe your parents, your mother is the disciplinarian --

A: Yes.

Q: -- and you say your father was soft up to a certain point --

A: Up to a point.

Q: Wa -- explain what you mean.

A: I mean this one, you know, you -- small thing my father not react, and our was very loving children, and dedicated to family. And if something was very, very bad, or somebody did something wrong to our family, was very active, very powerful, because he was tall man, almost six foot, and everybody like him. Mean th -- not on -- only family and other people has a very [indecipherable] for my father.

Q: Did you do things alone with your father, did you go for walks with your father?

A: Oh yes, sure --

Q: Yes?

A: -- we -- that's was a family affair. We live close to Vistula river, and each evening, if it's not important other thing to do, we go all together, walking maybe two miles close to Vistula river, we walk. And this time was very popular walking on this special sidewalk, white sidewalk near the Vistula river. Everybody go there, thousand people going one way, other way, and -- and we go all the time with her father and mother. And then my father [indecipherable] now we must be [indecipherable] we must walk. That's was something -- something important. And during Sunday for example, was very important for us, we go -- because we are Christian -- Catholic, we walk to mass during morning hours, Sunday. We must be dressed, clean dressed, and -- you know, and Father and Mother and four children, we walk to church. After the mass we go mostly to old town, what for us was very -- from historical point of view, and also architectural point of view, because my father has very good taste, and -- I mean not only for eating taste, and for

seeing some ma -- structure, like buildings. Like for example dresses, or something thing and historical part, we go to [indecipherable] town and s -- we walk around and Father point out and this is this house, belong to these people, then the other people took some [indecipherable] museum and so and so. In other words, created for us something what we call good taste for everything. That's was my father, part. Mother, on other hand, was very close to my father and was one -- if I can say, one woman what I can point like the best loving wife on her -- her husband. That was my -- my mother. And was whole time doing everything what created better - - good feeling for family and good for character for us. That's was my mother, and I have very big respect for my mother on this part of the -- I was the oldest son, and I know many different situation and I know one thing. My mother was best, loving, trustful woman for my father.

Q: So they were very much in love?

A: Oh, very much. And my father was very handsome man, tall and very good manner that's we like. Was not a -- a high education man, and born with this feeling, everything must be good, perfect, and nice. Not bother the other people. That's my feeling about it.

Q: And what did he do for a living?

A: My -- I -- if I can answer you this, I must go back to moment where my father was during the World War, first, was prisoner of the war, and was working four years during the war, arrested by German, and was four years in camp, where was working 94 -- ni -- ni -- 19 -- 19 after Polish state, it was created. My father come back from the prison -- mean the farm prison, and come back to Warsaw, and start working aw -- eight -- for example, propa -- he was about 20 years old, working for state like Marines, on Vistula river, because during this time, if you has -- are 18 ye -- or -- year -- years old, you cannot create a good education, because was very tough during the sn -- Russian occupation. Russian occupation was everything against the education, not like

in other part of this time -- a other part of the Poland, li-ike Austria, or Germany, was much easier to educate that -- himself. In Russian part was not so easy, and my father c-come back from the ne -- I call this prison, and start working, like I said before, for na -- state, and start educated himself. I remember I was maybe five years old, I remember good, to our house each days or two days, came some student from the Polytechnical Institute, and give the technical instruction, technical education for my father for a couple years. In other words, my father was self-educated man. And was probably good student, because resulted in his life was very, very successful. And later ther -- ni -- my father, last time 1913 -- 30's my father start small business, knitting mill. And very small, and start growing, growing. And this part is very tight connected with ji -- Jewish people, because this part of the trade was mostly maybe 60 percent in Poland was in -- in Jewish hand, Jewish trade. And from this point start the connection with a Jewish people who was located mostly in future ghetto, [indecipherable] and this part of the town and was, I can recall, businessman.

Q: Right, right.

A: Small end businessman.

Q: Businessman.

A: And 1930 -- 39 start, you know, war, and my father was more connected with Jewish people and special night before the w-war -- before the war -- ghetto uprising, because you know, we have two ghettos -- two uprising. Ghetto uprising and later the -- one year later, 1944 was Warsaw uprising where all nation and all Warsaw start fighting with the German, and that's was place where, you know, we lost --

Q: Right, right.

A: -- quarter million people, you know, there, also. That's my father trade.

Q: Yeah.

A: Now, what do you like to know more?

Q: Did you work with him when you got a little bit older?

A: Not -- later there --

Q: Later.

A: -- and later there from 1942 --

Q: Uh-huh.

A: -- | was working with my father because up to the "42, I was working for -- because in my school, high school, you mu -- before the war, you must know the other language. You not receive the gymnasium approval, in other words, diploma if you know other language -- if you don't know other language, you are not pass.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: In other words, in my house, my sister was take the French. My brother, sister and me, the youngest sister, we took the German.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And each in our house speak -- my father speak Polish, German and Russian, and we speak Polish and German, and my do -- sister Irena speak fluently --

Q: French.

A: -- French.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: That's was the requirements.

Q: Right.

A: What we have not in this -- the United States, I am scared because my children learned the French and now if you like ask for some French --

Q: It doesn't work.

A: Not now.

Q: Not any --

A: Anyway.

Q: Right. Did you get along with your brothers and sisters?

A: Yes.

Q: You're the eldest, and --

A: I was the oldest, I see -- have not s-special problem with my youngest br-brother and sister and so during the time -- my lifetime, I was maybe -- my sister is eight years older -- younger like me. In other words, I raise, almost, the girl, and because this I have maybe more sympathy for my youngest system -- sister. And we call all the time the [indecipherable] meaning young chil -- child in family. And it was favor for my mother, because -- and father, too, because was young.

Q: Right. Did you like school?

A: School?

Q: Yeah, did you like it?

A: Why not?

Q: Yeah. A lot of kids --

A: This way you know -- you know a little bit more.

Q: Right.

A: Educated, sure.

Q: What was your favorite subject? Did you have one -- when you were young, when you were -

A: 1 -- su -- favorite subject? That's was geography.

Q: Geography, yeah.

A: Geography was the best, history and geography. And still I never use this line I like only my - - is not favor, only professional way, was technical. I was future in -- I finish polytechnical -- [indecipherable] Polytechnical Institute in Warsaw University. And that's was for money, for [indecipherable]. And history and geography was my hard part of the subject.

Q: Yeah, right.

A: And that's -- we was travel all over the world, after we educated our children, who are the best children in the world, and especially in America, where raise the children was very, very hard.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And we were suc -- successful and thank to God we have good children.

Q: Right.

A: One boy, one girl.

Q: You like sports --

A: Oh yes.

Q: -- very much, yes?

A: Maybe too much.

Q: Maybe too much? Why?

A: Maybe too much, because you know the di-different story, this time, 1930 -- 1930 -- up to deg39, there, if you are good sportman, you can die because you have nothing to eat. You not even make -- not make money.

Q: Right.

A: Here in America, that's -- for sportsman is good place. If you are good sportsman, you can have better life. For example, in academic time I was, up to the 18 years old, I [indecipherable] up to the 1939 war, I was in academic team playing the basketball, and I was short. And I was good shooter, and was sometime too much I -- my father was very upset because I not learn what I supposed to do, and I spent more time for sport. And so I understand this, and so [indecipherable] everything was straight now, and also my sports part [indecipherable] I like and I was playing all the time my life, up to 75 years old before -- after a -- up to the operation, my heart operation, I play tennis, and I like very much. And also [indecipherable] subjects -- subject was I was in team where we are -- academic team where we [indecipherable] you know, eight people and for example, I was f -- on the [indecipherable] in the first part. And that's was only two, three years, because that war and [indecipherable] so --

Q: Right, right. Tell me something. Was -- was th -- was there in your house a certain kind of political consciousness as you grew up, in your discussions around the table?

A: Yes, oh yes, we -- we was all the time a very political family. Why? Because my parents grow and grandparents grow in atmosphere where we was -- where the people like free Poland.

[indecipherable] Poland was divided by three parts German, Austrian and Russia, and was fighting and was simpatic for freedom of the Poland. In other words, this part, my parents bring to our house. My parents discuss all time political part. And to you political mean we was very tight to our history, to our freedom, and my parents was very like, have the right freedom for

Poland, and that's we was discuss we move. In our house was all the time two or sometime three newspaper, different point of view. And sh -- we know -- try have the opinion, the right level opinion, not only one side.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And we never be anti-Polish, for example, and we never was on the left or the right side take the position. And we raised this way and we was good Polish citizen.

Q: You have said that when your father went into his business, you began to have more of an association with Jewish people --

A: Yes.

Q: -- or at least your father did. When you were going to school, were there Jewish kids in the school as well as Polish Catholic kids, or --

A: You see -- yes, I have couple -- ne -- not many, because you see, we was not too rich people.

Before, the educated children was very costable. And one time in our family was four children, and you must pay the tuition. And before the war, it was not so easy. Each child costs, for example in gymnasium, mean the high school, was private high school, and was state high school. If you cannot go to state high school, you must pay. And this costs this time, 80 zloty, and fellow who work in the bank, like [indecipherable] or fellow who work in the post office, take only 200 dollars mon -- monthly. And you must pay for one child 80 zloty. And I was maybe lucky because my parents paid for me only part of this, because I was good student, and happened I pay less. And my two sister and brother, that's was big money monthly, pay for education. And my father did pay and my mother said, I don't need fur coats, I don't need nothing, I need good, education children.

Q: We have to stop the tape now, we're going to change the tape.

End of Tape One

Beginning Tape Two

Q: I -- Lasked you -- I'm going to go back to a couple of things, but the last question I asked you was about your association with Jewish kids when you were in school, in -- in elementary school, and high school. Were there Jewish kids in the high school, or did -- or --

A: In elementary school, yes. Only was two in this area, was not a Jewish area --

Q: Uh-huh.

A: -- because you know in Warsaw, a part -- the Jewish Warsaw located mostly in one part of the Warsaw. The north part na -- close to Narlefki and this area. And where I live, I live close to Vistula river, was not many Jew, and s -- Jewish people, and still was two young guy who was up to twa -- 14 years old, we was together in school, and you know, was very nice guy, on -- poor, and still was [indecipherable] this young people go to Palestine. And up to si -- 14 years old, this fellow has education, and later they both are interest in go to Palestine and be some carpenter or some mechanical something like this. And that's was stop my connection with the Jewish young person. And still sa -- we was invited to later there, I maybe mentioned to Melamid family, where was on Bar Mitzvah and etcetera. That's connection family who is jewi - - our family with Jewish family in the same branch, the same business, the same trade. And during the high school time, was not many Jews, mostly it was like Catholic and the Protestant, not Jewish young people. In other words, this time, up to "39, in school was not close connection to young Jewish people. On the m-mem -- part of my family, from 1930 to 19 thir -- near "42 - deg44, na -- we was connected very closely to couple family, Jewish family in the Warsaw ghetto.

And special after 1939, the -- some family from Wilno moved to Warsaw, a Jewish family wo -- who moved to Warsaw, and name call Epstein, and we was close, and very important for us this time, we na -- was family name Melamid. Was three kids, and two g -- brothers and a girl, and a

Melamid family and grand family of Melamid was Birnbaum. And he was very close, and still was a business connection and my father was couple times -- was very -- like I said before, he's ver -- was very nice, honest man, and was call for some arrangement, some discussion, not only discussion, it was business people, but be Catholic and Jewish. And to wa --

Q: A problem, you mean? Some si --

A: A problem, some --

Q: -- problems?

A: Right.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And before go to the court, these people created some -- honest people from one side and other side, and dissolved the problem, in other words, straightened the problem. My father was called like the judge. In other words, Jewish people try -- know Father was honest and Catholic was thinking my father was honest person. That's was our connection. And --

Q: And was this in the 30's, before the ghet --

A: No, this was -- 30's - 30's.

Q: In the 30's.

A: Now the 19 -- from 1939, that's was little bit different situation because start created ghetto concentration camps in Poland.

Q: Right.

A: And for example, the concentration camp, very important thing. In Poland was, before the war, three and a half m-million Jewish people. The biggest concentration in Poland -- in Europe.

Mean was for Jewish people, was some chance better like in Germany or France. And German know this after the war, and before too, the big concentration Jewish people in Poland, that's,

from my point of view, was created and yet -- and German created so many concentration camps in Poland. One of the important concentration camp was Auschwitz. The Auschwitz was built first couple weeks after a war was [indecipherable] 1939, and first prisoner was not Jewish people, was Catholic people. And which one Catholic people? All professors from university. All the lawyers, engineers, and clergy was sent first to concentration camp, Auschwitz. That's first there was only Polish people was there, and was not directly kill, only hard labor created the deaths. 1941 start Jewish people there, and start the death camp. Concentration camp that's the one part, people dying because was overwork. And death camp, was sent there and killed.

Q: Right.

A: That's was the different and this must be straight, because I was in concentration camp, not in Auschwitz, only in Flossenbiirg, that's was political prison during -- before the war "39, where Hitler put all opponents, own party, to concentration camp. Many German people was there, that's was political prison. And that's my own concentration camp.

Q: Right, right.

A: But we talk later about it.

Q: Later we'll talk about that. Let -- let's -- let's go -- go ahead, I don't want to interrupt you, go ahead.

A: Ah yes, you ask me I -- I have many f -- I have not very close friend, and I -- Jewish people this time before -- during school, because in a class was 40 people, 50, and was two Jewish people, you know. And was living in different place, like we -- and we not have close connection. And still we seem the same, Polish citizen, has the same right like we Catholic, Protestant or Muslim, because was couple Muslim too.

Q: Right.

A: We have the same -- and I feel this -- I was raise in the same feeling, who because you must know and I am sure you know, the Polish Constitution was the second in the world after American Constitution, and it is the same Constitution, freedom from everyth -- everybody.

Q: Did -- wh-when you were growing up in Poland as a kid, before the war, did you experience people expressing anti-Semitism? Did you -- did you understand that there was a difference?

A: You know si -- you know si -- this is big word.

Q: Yes, I understand.

A: A big word, a big question.

Q: Yeah.

A: I live -- I born there, and my race is this time there. And the feeling was not anti-Semitic so much -- some people, yes. Like the J-Jewish people has m-more educated in this time -- part -- part, not all, because if we talking about the Jewish, we must divide -- and the problem is, we must divide between -- up to bucar -- Vistula river west, and Vistula river east. Vistula river west was not big su -- problem. West -- excuse me, east, was mostly people very sympatic to Communist regime. Socialist Communist regime. On the west part of the Poland, I mean, from the Vistula river, was little differ -- different and was from German idea anti-Semitic, and was not catch all of nation. Was only ma -- some small part. On east Poland was very big, torrential Communist ideology. And I lose my --

Q: Well, I think what I -- what I was asking you is, given th -- when -- when people live separately, and in many societies they do this, yes?

A: Right.

Q: So that children are often raised to think --

A: Oh, excuse me, that's I -- I not feel --

Q: Yes, okay.

A: -- now you remind me. Mostly was a economical problem. And that's -- if we call this anti- Semitism, that's wrong. That's was economical. Jewish people was hardworking, s-stood close together and was the same token, more successful. And Po -- Polish people, specially on -- on the east, was more lazy, like all the Russian this time. Not produce so much, not educated so much.

And start the different between Jewish more educated and -- and born on the east part of the Poland, more lazy and more -- not created. So -- and that's was all time the different economical.

Not only anti-Semitic -- I understand, because you are Jewish, you are no good. You are a Polish -- Polish, you are good -- you are good. And question is, economical -- the answer is economical base. That's if somebody called the anti-Semitism, that's not right. I not feel this way. Was some people was, from the point of view. This is -- Jewish mean this fellow is different like we are, because the fellow has [indecipherable] the fellow has the factory, the fellow working hard. And ss -- that's not ss -- for me it's not ss -- right. What I understand before the war, that's was only different on eco -- economical base, not religion.

Q: So you don't think that there was some kind of difference based on the fact that Jews believed differently than Catholics or Protestants?

A: No, I don't think so, I don't think so. I -- Ia -- race, you know, but to different people -- in my class, for example, was many -- not many, couple, Protestants. Nobody never talk about [indecipherable] feel this way, I feel other way. Generally speaking, like I said before, this was economical base in Poland.

Q: Okay, so let me ask you something. When Hitler comes to power in 1933 --

A: Yes?

Q: -- between "33 and "39, before the war --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- there is a rise of Fascism, or the right in Poland as well. Am -- am I not correct? There was

A: Before the war, was -- for me was not so popular start argument and fighting with the Jewish people, it was not popular. Some part of student in university created some, we are against the Jews who are educated in our university, because Jewish are 10 percent of the population, and in our class are 40 percent the Jewish people, educated by state. That's economical [indecipherable]. And all some student who said Jewish in our class supposed to be 10 percent, not 40 percent. And now you can call how you like, Anti-Semitist, or economical [indecipherable]. You see, that's the very big question.

Q: Do you think that the numerous clauses that was put into effect, the numerous clauses, which didn't allow as many Jewish students as before was a function of economics?

A: Economical --

Q: Uh-huh.

A: -- because some poor guys -- as -- very smart, cannot go to university because there was already, for example, 40 percent Jewish people. And this guy was [indecipherable] not me? Why I cannot go there? You see, that's the story. You must look both ways. And still I have very big respect for -- this time, for Jewish parents, try and pay for education own children. That's I mention [indecipherable] we must look after Jewish people. And take the sample, educate it own people. And this time, in Poland, many people not think this way. And Jewish people was ahead, educated own children. That's the very important.

Q: So let me ask you something. So when you're -- when Hitler comes to power in Germany --

A: Yes?

Q: -- were you very conscious of what's going on, is it --

A: Oh sure.

Q: -- is -- did the papers have a lot of stuff, it's --

A: We -- we look all a moment --

Q: Yes.

A: -- Hitler, and we were so upset. Why did friends, or British not do something?

Q: Right.

A: And Hitler grow, and you know, expend -- that's was our -- na -- is interesting. We look -- I said before, two, three newspaper daily.

Q: Right.

A: And we know, and each as -- from us, especially young people like me was thinking, we supposed to be the people who are honest, and people who are fair for everybody. He -- old people thinking, no, we are looking a little bit for right side. I was more liberal, after 1 grow up and I know a little bit more, I was little bit more towards center. And Hitler was created, you know, the situation, people start talking about the Jewish problem, and it's a -- etcetera. And not many people supported this idea, what I know.

Q: Min-hm. Right.

A: Some crazy guy at left or right, that's was not my idea. I try balance in my life opinion. And still Hitler did the worst part what happened to Jewish people, Polish people and other people who was lost life in concentration camp and death camp. That's what happened right now, and I not see in the newspaper in America right now mention how many people die, how they this or this. And now the German raise like big nation and -- and are successful, and our people in America, in Poland, are depress. That's my feeling. That's my [indecipherable]

Q: When di -- you talked about eating meals with y -- the whole family. Did you eat breakfast, lunch and dinner with the family? All three meals?

A: Yes.

Q: All three meals?

A: Yes.

Q: So is it --

A: No, we would -- in Poland was differently to [indecipherable]

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Eight -- seven o'clock was breakfast very quick, very quick, and we go to school, and ni -- later there we come back, three o'clock, and five o'clock was dinner. And during dinnertime, everybody was supposed to be near table. That's -- we -- with my wife, doing the same way. Our children was raised the same time. During the meals, we sup -- special evening, six or five o'clock, we supposed to be together and we eat and we discuss and we change our opinion.

That's very important thing, because this way father know what the children think, children know what father think. And they -- some idea, you know, left, right, was created, because I heard the other person opinion. That's was very -- and was and is important for family connection.

Q: Right. And did people in your family have different viewpoints?

A: Oh sure di --

Q: Yes?

A: -- absolutely, absolutely, specially my daughter, all time.

Q: No, I meant -- I don't mean your daughter, I don't mean -- I didn't mean after the war. I mean in -- in the 30's, when you are a little bit older --

A: Yes, yes.

Q: -- and you can understand more.

A: Yes, we was raise this way, everybody has own opinion.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And own opinion, mostly the young people has na -- opinion little bit, now how I can say?

Little bit left.

Q: Mmn-hm.

A: Liberal. Old people are going through whole life and see what happened, and said no, the true is in the middle. And you know, that's was -- later there we also go to m-middle you know, and we think that's the right way.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: You must think about the other fellows, other opinion, other idea, and that's way we was raised.

Q: And were you afraid of war? Did your family think --

A: Oh everybody -- everybody are afraid to war, if somebody know what mean the war.

Q: But were you specifically afraid that Germany would attack Poland? Did your parents talk about this or not?

A: No, afraid you sa -- afraid, that's one thing. If you are young people s-soldiers -- soldier, I was in this time soldier, you are all time afraid, because you know German was equipped with better i -- equipment, better trained and so and so, and Poland was less equipped. And so [indecipherable] knows. And that's war. And specially if you talking about the war, really not war, from east after the agreement between Hitler and Stalin, and take France and start -- give our back knife in the other back, that's different story and start [indecipherable] there, and KGB

and so and so. You see, that's -- that's terror. War, that's one thing. Terror, that's little bit different.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: You know, and we have experienced worse, from the east big political terror, and from the west big advance equipped army. And we were s -- Poland was between these two big --

Q: Mm-hm.

A: -- parties.

Q: Right.

A: And wer -- personally, if you ask me what is good, better, German or the Soviet, I -- I put equal.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: One and the other one kill own people like Stalin 20 millions, and this part kill our people.

Q: Uh-huh, right.

A: That's -- that's -- we will look from this pint -- part [indecipherable]. Well, anyway, maybe --

Q: Okay, you finished high school in May of 1939?

A: In 1939 May, and I was drafted to -- I was 18 years old, I was drafted to -- that's was the popular situation. After you finish high school, you have diploma, you must work -- you must go to army for free, not for pay, for free for two years.

Q: And that's every boy?

A: Every boy, every boy.

Q: And the girls had no obligation?

A: Girl, last two years was something -- prepare for military like we did. And the [indecipherable] during the high school's time, two years we have -- we call [speaks Polish

here], prepare for the army duty. And we know how operate, you know, the guns [indecipherable] during the -- the war, if [indecipherable] and that's what 18 -- 16 to 18 years old the gir -- gir -- boy did.

Q: And was that during this regular school hours, or there -- was that after school?

A: No, no, during --

Q: It was part of the school?

A: Right. Only one time weekly. One time week, on Wednesday.

Q: So what did -- what did you learn? You learned how to use a gun?

A: Like you use the gun, organization di -- in the army, and equipment and so on and so on. And later, if you finished and graduated from high school, you have gymnasium diploma. You must know the other language and you must go through the [speaks Polish here] to military. And these people was already like me, sent to mili -- ni -- to military unit where we -- for we prepare the -- our border with Germany, 1939, for three months, for free. Later there, after three months, we was automatically -- supposed to automatically be sent to one year military school for future officer, army officer, like West Point, you see, and only West Point is more graduated, you know, that's like half West Point education, something. That's not the same [indecipherable].

And 1939 I was after do -- received the -- a diploma, I was sent to a unit where we fortified our border and after three months we supposed to be transferred to a military school, and start war.

17 September, the Soviets invade Poland, and I was in a unit where we relocated there. And 20 -- pe -- probably two, three days after the Soviet invade in Poland, we was ma -- surrounded by army -- Soviet army tanks, and after small shooting, we supposed to surrender. Our officers was on one side, the other people -- soldier on other side. And officer sent later there to concentration camp, and death camp to [indecipherable] 15,000 of Polish officer was killed, you know. And I

was lucky, because I -- first night we was in barrack, were -- we were supposed to be selected later then I give my watch and 20 zloty and during night six people escape. We was not count, yet.

Q: Right.

A: And we was [indecipherable] if we not do now, we da -- later they" Il be to -- too late. And --

Q: I'm going to have to stop you, we have to change the tape.

A: All right.

Q: So we'll continue this story when we come back.

End of Tape Two

Beginning Tape Three

Q: You -- you talked about being captured by the Soviets, yes?

A: Right.

Q: And then, y-you didn't know, of course, what happened to the officers. Did yo -- did you --

A: I know was separate from us, and was --

Q: But you didn't know then what they were going to do.

A: Oh no, no.

Q: No.

A: That's -- that's was later, half year later.

Q: Yeah.

A: After half year, the -- you know, Stalin --

Q: Right.

A: Beria, and other Communist leader sign death for these people who was created Polish army.

Q: Right.

A: You see, what happened, if you look to history back, 1920, the Soviet army go west and try connect ru -- Soviet army with German -- six million German Communists. And Poland was on the way. And this time, Polish army -- voluntary army, stop the big, big army Soviet in -- near the Warsaw. And Stalin was the politruck there in his front, Polish's front and remember the so big army was stop by very small army not organize, voluntary army. And the Soviet must go back. And Stalin remember this, in own books mention, never forgot Poland stop invade S- Soviet [indecipherable] through the Germany. And that's the reason was created the Katyn and the all intelligentsia, all officer, all top generals was killed in Katyn, because Stalin remember what these people did for S-Soviet Communist invasion in the Germany, etcetera.

Q: Now in -- w-when they captured you, and they separated the -- the officers, how many of you were they -- were you, kids who were not officers?

A: No.

Q: You were all 18 year old and 19 year old --

A: 19 years old.

Q: -- you just graduated. So how many of you? A few hundred?

A: Oh, that's was couple company --

Q: Couple -- uh-huh.

A: -- you know, a couple company was --

Q: So it was pretty big.

A: Yeah, yeah. That's -- it was a -- and between us was maybe 2000 people --

Q: Uh-huh.

A: -- you know, that's -- that's something. I-In this part where I was capture, was less, because the company was spread.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And I don't know what happened with the other. And -- was couple hundred people.

Q: Right.

A: You know.

Q: And what made you decide to bribe the germa -- the --

A: Because I -- before -- because I read three newspaper, I know what mean the Communist who are -- Communist in the book is very nice. Practically bur -- talking, the east part, this is Asian people, and all time talking differently, doing differently, and you never know what happen.

That's -- I was scared. And people who was with me in the same company, know is only right

now chance, take our dresses and insignia what was -- because the rifle was already gone, because was taken by Russian, and escape. We know about, we must do this. We was prepare mentally. There is not good. There i -- west is not good, east is no good. We must survive. That, you know, I give him watch, a -- this time for Soviet, have the watch, that's was drim. And I have 20 dollar -- 20 zloty, was nice m-money, because p -- my parents give me before I go there.

And we escape, was six people. Six people and two go north, to Litvah, and two go -- we go to Warsaw, and two go to east. And this go t -- well, go to east probably, I never heard about it, or probably was killed or something. Two go -- go north, because this part was close to Vilnos, couple hundred kilometer from Warsaw. And these two guys, one of the was very famous general in Poland, son, go to Litvah and later they fight in English -- go through the Litvah to [indecipherable] Estonia, and go to Sweden, and later there fight like officer in Navy -- British Navy. And three -- two guys walk from there through the forest and etcetera, to Warsaw. And the way -- like we walk was not so easy, because you must know, between German and Lithuanian was something close, mean German talk to Lithuanian nationalist who work later, therefore German like not Gestapo, only military unit, and was against the Poland. Very against the Poland. Small country, very against the Poland. And after Soviet destroyed our army from east, these people, Lithuanian -- not all, and mostly, was very upset about the Polish army. And I myso -- we must walked -- walk to Warsaw during night because on the -- in the forest, I saw myself, many officer hanging, by Lithuanian. And without the boots, you know. In other words, we was scared. That's was scare. Because you never know where you go. We cannot go through the village, because [indecipherable] scared of the village was checkpoint, checkpoint created by Polish Communists, and check you everything, and you know, you never know, you can go to -- later they arrest and go to Siberia. And between these people with a red band, was many Polish

poor guy who was created, who was Communist and maybe Jewish people, poor Jewish people too, who think [indecipherable] new area, you -- a new life because everybody be free. Fine, be free, only not raise up to free, mean to middle class. Only turn down -- everybody down. And the people was thinking that the right way, and was wrong. And to me going back, we -- to Warsaw, we must be careful where we are going.

Q: So where did you --

A: That's 800 miles -- kilometer.

Q: 800 kilometers. So you walked at night --

A: Right.

Q: And you slept during the day, but where did you sleep, did you hide, did you do something?

A: We try e -- this area was some people who are Polish citizen and the same token not only Polish citizen, was Polish characters. In other words, if we knock down -- knock to the door, and we -- the people see we are in uniform, give us sleep, give us something to eat, was not much, and -- little bit. And give us address where we supposed to go --

Q: I see.

A: -- and meet other guy help us. That's was the reason we were very slow from September to end of de -- December, we walk 700 kilometers by foot. And before we cross borderline on the river Bug, some big river, we was waiting when we can cross there, because there was German and here was the bol -- the Soviet. And we was almost two weeks waiting on the -- close to the river Bug, and we was working for farmers. Farmers this time was -- Polish farmer pick up the potato. And we pick up the potato, and I never did this job. I was terrible had, because you know, was very hard to do this, all the time in this position.

Q: Right.

A: And stay there. We work there two weeks, and one day the farmer [indecipherable] says eat, and money and -- that's the Polish farmer. And we crossed the river Bug. Couple days we was waiting, maybe we cross today, in water up to knee.

Q: So you -- you walked across the river, up to your knee it was?

A: Yes, w-water was up to knee, and we must pick up the time, the fellow on the other side, the German, not shoot us.

Q: Yeah.

A: Well anyway, after two -- December -- during December, before the Christmas, we -- I reach Warsaw and see the house was destroyed, partially destroyed, and we start terrible life during the oc -- German occupation.

Q: Right. Let me -- let me ask you something. As you're -- as you're walking, obviously once you get into Poland, and the part that the Germans had, was there a lot of destruction that you saw, all over?

A: Oh yeah, y -- all over the section. Not like was after the war --

Q: After the war, yeah, yeah, right.

A: -- not the war's destruction. And you see that, for me was very different feeling. I saw Polish army because I was there. I was Soviet army who was very poor equipped. And a-after I cross the river, I saw the German army, what was equipped very good, and the people are, you know, good looking in the uniform, because German put all the money not in the bread, and not in the butter, only put every -- on many -- every penny to military. And that's was first my shock.

Three army, three different situation. And later where I saw third army, American army, that --

Q: When you saw the Germans, you know, seeing how well equipped they were --

A: Very equ --

Q: -- did that make you very nervous?

A: Oh su -- no --

Q: Bec -- because it --

A: -- that's was ans -- I receive the answer. We -- like, Poland cannot win the war with army like that one. After I walked and I saw first the German army. That's was different feeling. Was a very powerful army. Later there you know, France, Poland --

Q: Right.

A: -- fight longer --

Q: Right.

A: -- like France and the [indecipherable] and you know, give everything. That's -- I ha -- I have nothing respect for French army, absolutely. Is very big zero. [indecipherable] Maginot, you were no good to us. Equip millions, millions dollars, and g -- was giving for nothing. Not fight.

And Poland has not a line of Maginot or something like this, and fight. And right now we have something else. Well, anyway --

Q: Were -- were you very pessimistic when you came back to Warsaw? You si -- your family was okay, you came and you saw that the f --

A: Yes, maybe --

Q: -- your family was all right.

A: -- young fellow --

Q: Yes.

A: -- all the time is homesick.

Q: Yeah.

A: Right? You are army, first time out of the family, you thinking all the time about family. You know, I saw there, and you know was not other way. I cannot go in other place, I must stay with family in Warsaw. Sure I was upset and I know. This time maybe we know so much what kind German can do for your nation. Later then it was, you know, shooting. After two, three weeks, I was on the Warsaw street, each day was some execution you know, and people say a different execution, a loud talk [polish] polska, free -- freedom for Poland. That's -- you know what the German did? Put the gypsum in your mouth before you were shot. Not voice [indecipherable]

Q: They cut?

A: No, they put i-in your mouth before execution --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- put in your mouth gypsum.

Q: Is that tape?

A: Tape, and pu --

Q: Tape to cover the mouth?

A: Only you breathe by nose.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And you cannot talk, you cannot shout, you know, th -- do something with. And was shot.

And thousand people each month was shot on the street, [indecipherable] t-terror. And who was the people shot? Not poor people only. 90 percent was the people from the list, top education people. That's -- right now Poland lost so much educated people, and [indecipherable] Hitler the same, Stalin did the same. And you know, if you cut your head, mean the hand won't work. And the in -- intelligentsia, educated people are like the head.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: That's -- people know it, Soviet and German.

Q: Did you see any of these killings, did you --

A: Oh yes.

Q: You did.

A: Oh.

Q: As a youngster? Wh-When you came back, during this first period.

A: Right, there was not one, not 10. Many. One I mention what I remember to -- right now.

Close to Father" factory, I -- snow, maybe two inches snow a-and raining [indecipherable] snow.

Q: It was raining snow?

A: Yeah. For example, and I cross the corner and I turn. And on the -- below the -- my foot was something like rubber. I say, what happened? And because snow covered this, after I go there, I saw the blood. And you know what was the pieces of the bl -- how you call it?

Q: Flesh?

A: Flesh was there. And on the side of the building was [indecipherable]. Maybe a half hour or maybe one hour before, was execution there. And you walk over the flesh of the people. And it was very popular, very popular. If one German was killed by pola -- Polish people, right away hundred other Polish people was killed, next couple hours. And the list was in Gestapo prison, in Gestapo, and after sa -- happened something like this German was killed, from the list put on the big board, this and this and this was killed because one German was killed. And mostly was intelligent -- intellige -- educated people.

Q: Paul, what did that do to you when you turned the corner and you stepped and you realized you were --

A: No, the German was gone.

Q: No, no, I know that, but you're -- you're feeling --

A: No, it -- feeling -- feeling was --

Q: Was it --

A: -- different. Very, very upset, and heart starts beating because you'd never know was killed your father, brother or your friends, or you co -- can be killed next time there, you know. That's was terrible, you know, the feeling was -- you know how you can feel, if you know innocent people was killed.

Q: Did you know anyone who was killed during that early period?

A: Not specially -- I know the names --

Q: Uh-huh.

A: -- because famous names. That's not [indecipherable]

Q: Yes, no, I meant -- I meant a personal --

A: No, I --

Q: You didn't.

A: Inever know my friends was killed this way.

Q: Right, yes.

A: I can tell you from my class, 1939 was over 40 people, and I was after war invite to Poland from here, and you know how many people come back? Six.

Q: Six. Wow. I -- you know, I forgot to ask you, when you went home and walked in and saw your parents, they had not any idea where you were for months.

A: No, you see --

Q: September, October, November, December, right?

A: -- no, no, no, no, no.

Q: So they must have been --

A: You see, and I feel all the time like [indecipherable] if we talk about concentration camp. My mother was I say, devote Christian Catholic.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And my mother all time pray for -- in this time for me. And during the Warsaw -- the German invade pol -- Warsaw, my mother give the -- all the young special people, eat, cigarette, and something like this. Bew -- because was thinking, help these people, help maybe me some --

Q: Sometime.

A: -- some other people help me. The same happened during the concentration camp. We help 12 Jewish people from ghetto, and you know, our family was very dangerous situation because each corner gi -- you saw the German gendarmes ask you your paper. If you take Jewish people to the whole Warsaw from one end to other by rickshaw or by horse or carriage -- c-cartless -- cartless -

Q: Carriage.

A: Carriage.

Q: Yes.

A: You see that's was very danger. And if you s -- if you be catch by German, her -- Jewish was killed on the spot. People not recognize all the time maybe, maybe, maybe, may-maybe not. I tell you one, and he was lucky. We was put the six people in Swedish ambassadia like, you know, and six other people was gra -- put in the Hungarian ambassadi and we was lucky. And was not lucky, my sister, Irena, who we please, we ask Irena help this family son, because the parents was a good -- not friends only, good business people, and we respect this. And no [indecipherable] and these people suggest Mr. Wos, to my father, help us, our son. We don't care

about us, we have no choice, we are in the ghetto, we go for -- probably we dying. Help us [indecipherable]. And we did this. Talking to a special -- not me, Father, to my sister Irena, who was very famous and very good person, who was a artist -- paint -- artist, or educa -- for personal education, not artist [indecipherable]. And this fellow said fine, I am alone, I can help this young fellow, and took him to the own apartment, was alone. And this fellow mostly lived behind the arma -- no, wa -- how you call the -- how do you put the clothes? Armar -- Armra --

Q: Armoire?

A: Armoire.

Q: Armoire?

A: Armoire. And you know, was everything come right up to this moment where Warsaw uprising start, 1944, and all the people must go out from the building, German took everything out and sent to concentration camp bu -- because this part of the -- was not -- not -- this was a -- a -- a German [indecipherable] in other words [indecipherable]. And after the fellow took the boys down, and on the -- place on the ground, the German -- this is the Jewish guy, because was no -- wa -- [indecipherable] because w-was not outside the house, and killed both this guy -- the child and this guy who help him. That's happen, you see. Not many people think about this, you know, and that's was one hour different can be in more safety place.

Q: Right.

A: Entrapment. And do you know how many people in Yad Vashem receive medal like I received for helping the Jew? Altogether is 14,000. And you know the Polish people are 40 -- over 40 percent.

Q: Right.

A: And not included, the people who, like Nance, who save many, many Jewish girl. Not included the priest who has also saved the boys. And mostly not included, the people who were shot, like my friend the artist. [indecipherable] is little bit different.

Q: Right.

A: And sometime people give the idea about the Polish anti-Semitism and something ma -- fine, no, maybe even was some, I'm sure was. Some crazy people in Poland was too. Only, please look on the other way. How many people try help, and the same time Jews, and the same time was on the spot because only in Poland was death sentence. If you can help Jewish people for any way, give the bread, give the money, give the sleeping quarter, that's -- you know, you must balance.

Q: Right.

A: One hundred.

Q: We have to stop the tape now.

End of Tape Three

Beginning Tape Four

Q: When you came home from walking these f -- September, October, November, December, almost four months.

A: Right.

Q: Did your parents recognize you when you walked in the door?

A: Oh yes, sure.

Q: They did. What did you look like?

A: I [indecipherable] them crying.

Q: Yeah, I imagine.

A: And was -- house was partly destroyed, you know, and in our house was couple other people who was evacuated from east, and my mother was, you know, very, very pleased see me because was thinking I never come back because this time Soviet army take many prisoner to the Siberia.

And I was close to a Soviet border. And my pa -- parents know, from radio, from ever -- from the news, and was thinking maybe I was dead already in Siberia. Was thousand -- one and half million people was sent to Siberia. Polish citizen sent to Siberia. And not regular people. Mostly the people who owned something was under that position in the government or something like this. This was go first, and family was destroyed. Mother was -- she can go one way, and the Father on the other way, or go to [indecipherable] or Katyn and killed. And people like my parents read the newspaper and you know, heard of the people who are the Soviet doing there.

And moment I walked to my house and nobody know I am living -- still live or not. You know, was very big surprise. And you know, Mother, like all mothers, you know, ma -- has 10 children and still each one is the most important.

Q: Were you dirty when you came in the house?

A: Oh, dirty, hungry, almost without the boots. 700 kilometer, walking. That's -- that's the --

Q: Were -- did you have problems with your feet? Did you have blisters?

A: Y -- y -- y -- [have the blister and very bad blister during the evacuation. First couple days after war was start, we was evacuated and full equipment with the rifles and so and so. And the boots was, you know, the not all right for my size of the -- I put in the boots straw, because I have not stockings.

Q: You had no socks?

A: Those were destroyeds -- destroyed, you know, and I put s -- not me, everybody men -- try and do this, the straw in your boots and was little bit cushion and later the -- is insulated. And each couple -- one night, one 24 hours, we walked 80 miles -- 80 kilometers walk during the nights, you know, with equipment maybe, for 80 pounds, you know, that's was -- for young guy who was raised in Warsaw, in this town and never has the problem walking, that's was problem.

Q: This is going to sound stupid. How did you figure out how to go when you escaped?

A: Oh --

Q: Which direc -- ho -- ho -- did you have maps?

A: Map, that's one. You see, that's again come back to ma -- our education. During high s -- high school education in Poland, in geography, we supposed to know each river, not only in Poland, whole ways, the biggest river we must know. We must know in our education all town, big town, which one the country produce what, and what kind material is export and import and so on. And in Polish part from geography, was tough professor and ask -- you must know how many river are on the left side the Vistula, right side. How many -- how big are the rivers, and towns, roughly hundred thousand people, you must know where is the located. That's was -- was no problem for me.

Q: Oh, I see.

A: We know so well that you know -- not a problem.

Q: Do you remember the first thing you did when you came home? Did you take a bath, did you eat? Was there water, given the --

A: Oh water was already, because three months in Germany, you know, by terror, start organize Warsaw. I mean, water, sewer, was already done.

Q: So that was okay.

A: Right, because Polish people was there for -- take care for the water and sewer.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: That's was -- in my house was no problem. Was problem because was house -- was haved -- have destroyed, no bathr -- not bathroom, not bath, and still we take care for our cleaning and [indecipherable]

Q: So there was no bathroom?

A: No.

Q: The bathroom was destroyed?

A: Destroyed.

Q: So --

A: Well, so only --

Q: In the kitchen.

A: Was only a -- a bathroom, common bathroom outside the building.

Q: Uh-huh. Were you living in a -- in a separate house, or was this apartments --

A: No, no, this apartment, apartment.

Q: -- with a corch -- with a courtyard?

A: No, this --

Q: No.

A: No -- yes, was courtyard, right. We can call it courtyard.

Q: So, many different people use this outside bathroom?

A: Right, right, right. Because was one bathroom outside.

Q: And this included a -- a bathtub --

A: No.

Q: -- so you could wash? No --

A: No, not.

Q: -- just -- just the toilet?

A: Just the toilet.

Q: I see. So where did you bathe? In the kitchen?

A: No, we bathed in basement.

Q: In basement?

A: You know, yes was a big barrel with water, and was ho -- cooked on stove --

Q: It was heated?

A: -- and put there, and you know, I [indecipherable] because it was -- was the -- after the war.

Was [indecipherable]

Q: Right, right.

A: -- [had [indecipherable] completely.

Q: Do you remember that first bath?

A: Roughly speaking, yeah.

Q: Roughly speaking.

A: It was very good. And general speaking, the walk from east part of the Poland to Warsaw, I was lucky because where we was, the people sa -- help us. And still was the danger you never know which one door you knocked, you know? And still was all time afraid. We was afraid, and there was two guys who was my friend who walked with me, named Josek, that's was a guy who was with me in this class during four years.

Q: Uh-huh. So you were good friends.

A: And so was very friendly.

Q: Yes.

A: Was friendly. And where we was in Polish place, all time we can wash little bit of face, and take the bus was not so easy, because [indecipherable]

Q: No, I didn't think -- and the food situation right away was okay?

A: No, for th -- listen, everybody has not enough food because -- special wars -- big town. An- And -- because we walked through the villages, the people was friendly to u -- special in Polish part, where it was not Lithuanian. Closer to Warsaw was better, and on the -- in villages, people all time give you something. B-Before war -- was war or not war, villages in Poland was very friendly to people from the towns.

Q: Right.

A: And -- and special you need something to eat, give you maybe not the best food, and still you can have something.

Q: What did your parents tell you about what the Germans were doing?

A: No --

Q: Because you didn't know. They were there for three or four months and you didn't know.

A: Right, and parents and -- know about this and talk to me and we must prepare ourself mentally what happened, and be careful not close do -- something what people can s -- h-he -- German can shoot you. And very hard it was from beginning, take the job, because was no job, and it was dark moment. And organize the food supply in Warsaw was very hard. You know, that's everything drop down, and less food and less ti -- supply, to -- to Warsaw and still my mother -- my mother arranged the food, and thank to org -- good organized my mother, 1944, after we go to concentration camp, we stayed in life from transport from old town Warsaw after old town collapse, Warsaw collapse, and old town we -- we go to concentration camp, and we have enough energy, I think, because we eat all time -- this [indecipherable] was possible -- the best food was possible -- we eat [indecipherable] mean the vitamin C, how you call the si --

Q: Uh-huh. Oh, orange? An orange.

A: Not orange, the other.

Q: Grapefruit.

A: Not grapefruit, oh, that's not [indecipherable]

Q: No

A: Lam talking about growing in Poland the -- vitamin C, in other words, a-and we eat --

Q: Oh, onions.

A: Onion. Onion, right. And we eat more onion like I eat in my life.

Q: And that was very healthy for you, yes.

A: Yes, and it was prepare with the ef -- fat and pieces, you know, meat, and the chabboulah like I said before and we be prepare for something worse and happened --

Q: Yes, yes.

A: -- Warsaw uprising. And later there, you know, concentration camp.

Q: Right.

A: From my transport, from this town, from this start -- from this part of the Warsaw, over 3,000 people, 3,200-something, left -- 183 left over. You see, that's --

Q: I want to ask you something ab-about something you said awhile ago. I don't know if you can remember, because something happened to your eyes, and I want to know whether you can -- you started talking about your mother praying for you.

A: Yes, that's --

Q: And it was very moving for you. Can you ex-explain what this -- what this means?

A: No mean.

Q: Or what you're feeling?

A: You see, that's not everybody feel this way. My mother was very, very believing person. And not only believer, doing this.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And I feel we go through the concentration camp, whole family, mother father, four kids, cook, and one cousin. My two daught -- two aunts, and I feel because wa -- my wa -- my mother pray very hard, and also I feel this way because we saved the other people, God give chance to us live.

Q: Mm-hm, right. So it matters to you a great deal.

A: Many times I feel in concentration camp, if must be sacrifice somebody in our family, let me go first, because my parents must live, raise the two girl, younger girl -- and I am alone. If must be sacrifice, I am the first.

Q: Fortunately that didn't happen.

A: Happen we all come back from concentration camp. And in concentration camp was -- I was lucky anyway. I was so many times close to death, and something good happened. One of the situation, somebody in concentration camp helped me very much, and I took the job there where was only dreaming of the job, working in the hospital. And one day some -- somebody go to [indecipherable] dead body was there, laying like this. And that's was Russian officer. In my concentration camp was 5,000 Russian office -- army officers. And Polish people was much smaller part. And try take the teeth from dead body -- de -- dead people. And fellow who -- German giz -- who or -- was on the tower, and has a reflector, saw something happened and put the reflector there, and start shooting, because somebody go to the body where was not checked yet. Because a regular supposed to be checked by a doctor, dentist, who took the gold teeth. And this fellow who go there and take the teeth, know what mean gold in concentration camp. For gold you have bread. And come back to the moment, the guy -- German from the top start shooting this way. And my bed was on the other room, big room against this wall where was the dead body. And dead body was up to six foot high. And this body take the bullets. If be not body there, I be killed. One of the -- now, that's -- that's the story in concentration camp --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- and I was lucky, and people die like -- like fly from, like I said before, 3,000 people, over 3,000 people, saw 80 -- 180 was come back. People die each day, you know, and s -- I was -- thank God -- I was hungry, not enough food, I go through typhus. I was -- weighed half my weight because sickness -- typhus take me. Only I was lucky too, because my father was with me in the same concentration camp. And sometime my father not eat own soup, and give me half the bowl soup.

Q: Hm.

A: And I make some friends in concentration camp who help me, because otherwise, if you are sick, you were selected right away to crematorium. Shot to crem -- to crematorium. You see, in our concentration camp, was not a gas [indecipherable]

Q: Right, there was no gassing.

A: Was no --

Q: Right.

A: In other words, that's -- that's the story, and living in concentration camp was terrible story.

And I tell to you one important thing. I was in concentration camp, and the situation in Warsaw ghetto was worst. Was worst, because there was not only food, people are trying to be animal one to other. Take the bread because you die anyway, take the bread. In concentration camp was not so. People was hungry and in ghetto was worse situation than concentration camp.

Q: Mm-hm. Let's -- let's go back to 1939.

A: All right.

Q: If we can. What sort of work did y -- did you do before you started working with your father?

At some point your father's --

A: Yes, yes.

Q: -- business is opened again, yes?

A: Cannot open the small production because was not supply.

Q: Right.

A: In other words, we was looking for some work, you know, and was very important because if this situation in Warsaw was like this, if you walk through the street, and all the time gendarmes going one way or other, three guys, and asking give me your paper, if you have not paper, mean [indecipherable]. You are working someplace important, because if it's not important, that's the

people put you in the boots, mean in the -- and take to Germany. And that's was the very hard part. And we was looking for the job cover us, and because I -- in this time I, from school I speak German, and we was looking for the job who cover us.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And one company Shinker, a transport company ask in advertising for people who are speaking German and Polish. And I was there, and was good [indecipherable]. In other words, cover hundred percent because it's German company. That's international company. Shinker that's the international company, and -- transport company. And I was working there, and zi -- we transport -- we prepare, packed. First we are -- we prepare, packed, and sent to different places the diplomats who was in Warsaw, and after the war stop -- start, the people was sent to own country, all to German, to Belgian ambassador there.

Q: So you were packing furniture, or things?

A: Furniture, and all --

Q: Office? Clothes?

A: -- clothes, and so.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And I prepared the list, you know, and the people working there put this together and that's was part what cover me very much, because all the people was not so danger, only intelligent, very and known in -- high educated professor was very danger. The m -- young people, too, because young people is all time created the problem. That's -- I-I was s-so many time catch by gendarmes, and I sho -- showed the [indecipherable] no problem.

Q: Really?

A: No, I always go.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: That's was everybody in [indecipherable] in the same in ghetto. If s -- you work for Judenrat, German accept this, up to the point. If you has nothing, you are go already to transport, you know, that -- that's happened. And I was working there later there oy -- and my father receive some goods for production, I was working with my father.

Q: Right. Now let me ask you something. Between -- when you come back, in December of "39 - - November of "39, Jews have to wear an armband.

A: Yes.

Q: And there's no ghetto yet, so you see Jews now with an armband with a Jewish star.

A: Yes, absolutely.

Q: And what did you think?

A: Well, I -- I was thinking German are crazy. And still, you know, on the -- on the human being.

Q: Yeah.

A: You know, and we know little bit more because we have Polish people who live in Berlin before the war --

Q: Mm-hm.

A: -- and in Gdansk. In the Gdansk my f -- family -- not closer family, live in Gdansk. There German, deg38 -- "36 -- deg38 start parade, or something like this. And my friends, my family and people, standing there and has the hat on the -- you know, not take the hats.

Q: Hat off, right.

A: For -- because the standard -- the flags was [indecipherable] Hitler jugend [indecipherable].

Some of -- a guy from Hitler jugend start and push and you -- you know, and slapped in the face.

That's we know. [indecipherable] people live only in Warsaw.

Q: Right.

A: And we was prepare what Hitler can do with Polish --

Q: Mm-hm.

A: -- people. I am talking a Polish citizen. I mean, Polish, Jewish, ni -- ni -- Gypsy, because po -- in Poland was the varied people, you know --

Q: Right, yes.

A: -- not only Christian Polish, you know, and we know that's typical bandit system.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Unhuman system. That's I -- I am sorry, I not trust up to now, German anyway. American [indecipherable]

Q: Okay.

A: That's my feeling.

Q: We're going to take a break now. We have to change the tape.

End of Tape Four

Beginning Tape Five

Q: Paul, when I asked you, when you saw the -- the Jews wearing Jewish stars, and I asked you what did it mean to you, you said, well the German are crazy.

A: Yes and danger.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Not only crazy, I -- danger, too.

Q: Right, right, right.

A: That's was very upset because I know the next step be for Polish, only what kind band we --

Q: Uh-huh.

A: -- wear, I don't know. It was very, very bad feeling, you know, because you are mark like animal.

Q: Right.

A: You know, that's -- that's was feeling.

Q: Did you see markings on Jewish stores, also, that said this is the store of a Jewish person? Or did you --

A: No, I not --

Q: -- you -- you didn't see.

A: N-No, that's mostly in Austria, you know.

Q: Uh-huh. In -- in January of 1940, apparently there were a number of pogroms against Jews, did you know about this? There were muggings and beatings of Jews in Poland. No?

A: Not in west part of Poland.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Not -- not what I know. Maybe it happened something like this on east part.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And -- pogrom. You know, this is -- probably is two big words for this --

Q: Uh-huh.

A: -- I -- really I not cross something like this.

Q: Right, right.

A: Was many time I heard don't buy in Jewish store, that's other thing. And nobody press, nobody mark, nobody -- that's -- we talking about the Warsaw.

Q: Yes, and in --

A: Lam not talking about the other [indecipherable] because --

Q: Right. And in Warsaw was this a rule by the Germans to say that you couldn't buy in a Jewish store, or were you just --

A: No, no, that's -- that's was a -- before the war.

Q: Before the Germans came?

A: Before the war. Some people suggest don't buy in Jewish --

Q: I see.

A: Some -- you know, some people thinking that the right way to --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- react.

Q: Right.

A: And was not big problem, don -- not big popular.

Q: Right.

A: Maybe in east part of the Poland, yes, not in Warsaw.

Q: Uh-huh. I understand that in some way you joined the underground, and --

A: Yes.

Q: -- the members of your family did too, but you didn't speak about it.

A: No, no. You cannot speak because --

Q: So --

A: -- if you be catch --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- and beaten, torture --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- you know what your so -- brother, or -- or father, or the -- nobody -- everybody in my family was belong to underground in different places, nobody talk.

Q: But did you know that you were each in the underground?

A: Oh sure.

Q: You -- you all knew, but you didn't -- you never talked about it.

A: Never talk about, and never know which one organization, which one part.

Q: I see.

A: You know, because some parts of -- for example, was in university, some organization was ni -- in your working pla -- working place. Some organization was in you -- you neighbor. And most important thing, don't talk about, don't ask about this.

Q: Right.

A: That's was the safety part.

Q: So how did it happen that you became part of the underground? Did you go to somebody that you knew?

A: No, somebody else --

Q: Came to you?

A: Came to me and then on, and specially in the same age, then on we have something like this, some idea like this, and we supposed to be. That was the connection. And later there you said yes, or -- or not.

Q: And did you know this -- you knew this person, but did you know the group that he was --

A: [indecipherable] this person and generally this idea, because I know only three person.

Q: Right.

A: And the organization was --

Q: Was large.

A: -- couple thousand people in, for example.

Q: But did it matter to you, since there were different undergrounds with different politics?

A: Oh yeah.

Q: So did it matter to you?

A: No, was different sure, was different politics. Only later there, after X number years, the politic go together to one group, because this way is more power --

Q: Right.

A: -- [indecipherable] something, and this was the head over everything, all different idea was Armia Krajowa.

Q: Mmn-hm.

A: Home army.

Q: Right.

A: You know, who would fighting against the German.

Q: And is -- is -- is that the group that you were with at first, army -- Armia Krajowa?

A: No, that's was before different name, and later there combined to Armia Krajowa.

Q: So what did you do? What did they ask you to do?

A: First was thousand different ma -- way you can help, you can do against the German. First, you can be na -- sabotage guy, and not many was like this. Not many. And enough German, as you know [indecipherable] problem, was a sabotage and some was, for example [indecipherable] news printing, delivery paper for example, distribution paper. Was so many point -- y-young people special was help to this organization.

Q: There was -- there were a lot of underground newspapers, yes?

A: Oh yeah, sure. Small paper, each day something new, what happened at west point -- west front, what happened in east -- in east Poland -- east front. And you know that's keep the people happy, and s --

Q: How did people get the newspapers, since clearly you couldn't openly sell it?

A: Oh no, of course --

Q: So how did -- how did you -- how did people get it?

A: It was many different way. The people -- sometime the people bring you one or two pieces the newspaper. Some people distribute thousand right now. And for example, mother with small children -- child in the carriage be s -- below this has so much paper [indecipherable] paper, and distribute this in germa -- from beginning don't know nothing about this, and you know, if we -- conspiracy, you know [indecipherable] is good organize that's be close and no many people know about this. That's happened during the war in Poland, organize and you know, and the top was mostly the officer -- army officer who was not killed, who was not in -- in a camp, and organize, and the other thing was very good prepare, you know, that's life.

Q: Right.

A: If you do something wrong, you risk your life and your friends. And was good organize, and - - up to moment where we -- who was the -- the Warsaw uprising and before the Warsaw uprising, the -- two weeks, the radio from Moscow -- M-Moscow, call Polish people si -- take the arms, and fight with German, who moving with -- and people was, you know, a -- very excited and special young people. And after up -- Warsaw uprising start, the Soviet stop talking about this. And whole tragedy who was wars -- in Warsaw uprising, where we lose over 200,000 people, more Warsaw lose during 80 -- 63 days, more people like American army during the World War second lose. 200,000 -- over 200,000 war -- Warsaw lose people, and killed, and American armies, 175,000. Lose for whole war. Mean was big, big sacrifice from Polish people.

Q: Right.

A: And Warsaw was destroyed 85 percent.

Q: Right. Now I want to move back again, cause you still haven't told me what did you do for the resistance in 19 four -- you joined in 1940 or 1939?

A: E -- all time we was there, only I was limit to do something for Armia Krajowa. M-Mostly our intention and possi -- possibility was holding the paper for printing.

Q: What does that mean, holding the -- you mean di --

A: That paper must be sto -- someplace --

Q: Stored?

A: Storage.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And was storage in my father factory.

Q: And you stored it there?

A: Yes, I mean, that was --

Q: Did you -- did your -- did your father know?

A: Yes. My father was in underground from beginning, like me.

Q: So was this a case where you -- where -- how did he know, if you were in different groups?

A: If you have pa-paper, so much like --

Q: So you can -- uh-huh.

A: [indecipherable] you know, it was --

Q: There was no way not to know.

A: Only no more question was. We know --

Q: Right.

A: -- if somebody --

Q: It was just there.

A: -- who know be taking some part for printing, I was there or my father was there, we give this.

Q: Right.

A: And that's all, and our knowledge was end. One fellow only take the paper out for printing.

Q: Right. Did you ever have second thoughts about working for the underground?

A: Oh no.

Q: No.

A: No, no. And beside this, this -- if you are 25 years old, and your all friends are joining the organization, and you know this is good for country, good for history, and all your friends doing the same, you cannot say I -- I not do this, because you be scare and some automatically you were scare --

Q: Mm-hm, right.

A: -- and you can not show I am scare.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And everything was all right, if was not somebody who was beaten by Gestapo -- by -- by German and forced to say where the paper, for example, or the ma -- other stuff are. If only nobody talk, that's you know, in the underground army was very important. Somebody who drink too much was not allowed to join there, you see, because something like this, you drink too much, you talk too much, and you know, is [indecipherable] conspi -- spiratsin --

Q: A conspira --

A: [indecipherable] the organization, you know, that's --

Q: Now, for somebody who's never been in an underground -- does somebody -- I know this is going to sound funny, does somebody make sure that you're okay? This friend asked you, did he have to tell people that he was going to ask you, and that they decided you were a safe person?

A: Before --

Q: Do -- do you know -- do you know what I mean?

A: -- before people --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- was taken to the organization --

Q: Yes.

A: -- was search wi -- by all --

Q: Different people --

A: -- X number of people.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: We saw -- this fellow is all right, he is all right. He's all right, you know, something like this, you know, that's was the --

Q: Yes.

A: -- conspiracy.

Q: Right. So this happened before your friend approached you --

A: Oh yeah, sure.

Q: -- because otherwise he wouldn't be allowed to approach you.

A: No, no.

Q: Right.

A: People must trust you --

Q: Yes.

A: -- must know your character, must know your minuses. If you have some minuses, you -- what really are danger, nobody take you.

Q: Right.

A: You know, that's -- that's [indecipherable] and somebody who work for, for example, for Gestapo, for Germany, mean [indecipherable] you know, was -- can be killed, because you do something against the -- the Polish nation, mer -- our organization. And happened like this.

Q: Depending upon how much you saw, I don't know how much you saw, but were women's jobs different from men's jobs in the underground? Cause after the war you talked to your sisters and your mother --

A: No, now I -- a -- a woman si -- was working very hard, and sometime is more brave like men.

Only, they did different training, different job, different obligation.

Q: And what would be the difference?

A: Different for -- was for example like this, the men was training for military mostly a job, underground destroyed something or sabotaged or something like -- women mostly -- not always, mostly work for si -- help -- hospital n -- care, or if somebody's wounded, you know, know what your supposed to do, transport the news from one comp -- unit to other unit, that's was mostly the woman part.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Now, very important, during the Warsaw upri -- during whole occupation was some group of women, very brave, and -- women, who sabotaged the railroad station -- railroad tracks, you know, and blow the small bridges. That's was women, trained for this stuff. And then that's what happened.

Q: And your sisters and your mother also were probably --

A: N -- Mother no.

Q: Not your mother.

A: Mother only bless us, and sister, they both are train for -- not doctor, below the doctor, how you call it?

Q: A nurse?

A: Nurse.

Q: Nurse.

A: Nurse.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: You know, prepare during the -- some action, people be hurt or something, they -- that's a woman job [indecipherable] was. Take him to ho -- to place where le -- physician can doing right the job.

Q: Right.

A: Keep the first idea to wounded people. And m-many, many women were -- was very bright, and very --

Q: Brave, you mean?

A: Brave, brave.

Q: Brave. Mm-hm.

A: That's happen.

Q: I -- I'm going to start going sort of back and -- back and forth with different -- different things, because your experience covers both the Polish Catholic or Polish Christian side as well as in some ways what happened to Jews. When the ghetto was announced --

A: Yes, yeah.

Q: -- for Jews in October 1940, and then the Jews move into the ghetto area, do you --

A: Must move in --

Q: Must move by November, right?

A: -- that [indecipherable] right, and -- and --

Q: Do you remember --

A: -- Pole -- and Catholic must move on the other end.

Q: Yes, and move on the other side. Do you remember the Jews going through the streets and going?

A: Oh yeah, sure, absolutely, absolutely, I remember this how you know they was very upset, see the people you know, all -- all the house, and you know, [indecipherable] house, and taking to other small places and so and so and vice versa. That's was not good for Christian [indecipherable] ghetto, must move other ways, because all time be losing proposition, because if

you stay, you know, where everything is, you are satisfied, if you must move you lose all contact.

Q: But did you see it as more dangerous for the Jews moving into the ghetto, given this --

A: Oh sure, absolutely, yes.

Q: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

A: Yes, we know nots be -- nots --

Q: Right.

A: -- nots good.

Q: Do you remember seeing the wall go up?

A: Oh, na -- bleet up --

Q: Built.

A: Was there, and I cross the -- the entrance to ghetto --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- almost each day for two years.

Q: But you remember seeing it being built?

A: Yes.

Q: Th-The wall. And did you wonder why, if they put the Jews i --

A: No, we know wh --

Q: You knew.

A: -- why. We know this is for insulation the Jewish people from [indecipherable]

Q: Right, right.

A: And we know, and we know the next be Polish people. Maybe not this way, other way, and be very danger from German part of [indecipherable]

Q: In the underground, was there a discussion about what this would mean for the Jews --

A: Oh sure, and --

Q: -- an-and what, if anything, should be done?

A: Anything, that's -- that's very, very difficult question.

Q: Yes, I --

A: Talk about what can be done.

Q: Yeah.

A: And what -- if you suggest we do something like this, and you don't know, you must think how many people lose the life doing this. Sometime was not possible.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And doing something for Jewish people in this time was -- many think not possible because was army -- army people working for this idea, Hitler idea, put the Jews there. For example, some -- we -- and we have not power for this, our organization I know -- not my unit, si -- in our organization help Jewish people who stop uprising. And was too late. And beside this, some people here to gi -- why you no-not give the arms to Jewish people in ghetto. Warsaw uprising was lose because was not enough guns, not enough ammunition, not enough nothing. In other words, give Akar, Armia Krajowa prepare a-and train Jewish people during the ar -- wa -- jury -- Jewish uprising and help was not possible. Was really not -- I help, I bring the sandwiches there each day or so -- or something, and that's nothing. There was half million people.

Q: Right.

A: And you know, Polish underground men go to -- through the all borders from Germany to Hispania and later there to Anglia, and Mr. Karski, you know --

Q: Yes.

A: -- that the name, go there and talk to [indecipherable] talk later there to -- to the President Roosevelt. And the people not believe first, and second, between us, Jewish people not help much. New York Jewish people not help much Jewish people in Warsaw, because was not -- not believe can happen to people like this.

Q: Did you know of Jan Karski's work during the war, or did you only find out about it after?

A: No during the war, I know after the war.

Q: That he was a --

A: And I know him personally.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: I know him personally. A very nice, you know, brave man and etcetera. And during this war, underground army cannot do mu -- much more.

Q: Mmn-hm.

A: Because was each -- we must be careful with the underground, also many German people live in Poland [speaks Polish here] was spy for Germany. And you must be very close -- if we talk together we go outside, not inside because maybe is something not --

Q: Mm-hm.

A: -- connect some instrument and that was not so easy. Now, every pa -- body criticize. For example, Jewish people suggest the railroad tracks in Poland to Auschwitz supposed to be -- supposed to be bombard by alliance. Never happened.

Q: You mean by Americans?

A: By -- right. By American or a -- or a -- English. Never happened. You see, because this was calculated risk, is not make sense, we must win the war. Meantime, you win the war, and how many Jewish or Polish live -- lost your life?

Q: Mm-hm.

A: You know that's politics -- and -- and besides this, you must know one thing. After war -- after Germany take Poland and Russian take first all guns, all radio, all instrument against the enemy, and in Poland was not -- you cannot buy gun, you cannot have some ammunition, because everything German took out. And later there, before start the Warsaw uprising, how you can have the guns? Buy from the German who are against the war happen, or kill the German and take the ha -- gun. Was not so easy.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Because if you kill one German, a hundred people was hanged tomorrow or -- or shot tomorrow. That's very -- very touchy moment.

Q: Right, right.

A: That's not so easy, because somebody special, who never know in conspiracy, and never know the organization Armia Krajowa think we supposed to do more, or why you not do this, how you not -- that's was everything calculated, you know. If you do something good for one person and lost two person home, that's not make sense. And etcetera. And I am a little bit upset maybe, cause Karski was in the west, and not help -- help, and not support ne -- from American government and from Jewish government -- for Jewish, I am not [indecipherable], in Jewish.

And that's was for me big question, why. I understand for example, the New York Jewish organization cannot give the guns, cannot give ammunition, and can't give the money -- money, and for money, American money, you can buy in Poland this time, everything. And that's my point, the personal point view.

Q: Right

A: I not represent, you know, some organization.

Q: Right, I understand.

A: And that's my personal view.

Q: Right.

A: And I know these people can help little bit more own people. That's my feeling.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Because we Polish people cannot -- Catholic people, we cannot think somebody can help us.

Only English, French supposed to have some sign, agreement supposed to help Poland, but it never did, and forgot Poland.

Q: We're going to take a break because we have to change the tape.

A: Oh, oh, oh.

End of Tape Five

Beginning Tape Six

Q: Paul, once the ghetto is established and your father has some kind of a small business going, yes, and you're starting to work for him, are we talking in 1940? Or are we deg40 -- or beginning deg41?

A: "40 -deg41 -deg42 -deg43.

Q: Okay. So how is it that you get permission -- because you can't just walk in and out of the ghetto --

A: No, no.

Q: -- whether you're Gentile or not.

A: Listen, this part took my father, and also from other side, Melamid, Mr. Melamid. This permission, I don't know ir -- I not remember who give the permission -- the paper. I know father bring me the paper, and -- for myself.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And that's w-was -- in ghetto was, you know, Judenrat, right?

Q: Right.

A: Organization who take care for na -- whole ghetto. And must be more -- di -- I think supposed to be either from Jewish na -- from ghetto through the Judenrat through the na -- Polish German police, and aft -- after there, you receive the -- the paper cross the street. I remember only one thing I receive from Father. My father has [indecipherable] and later I receive from my father and we go each day to ghetto.

Q: So did you go together with your father?

A: Oh ye -- we not go together.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Because from safety factor, if one be arrested, other be saved.

Q: Yes.

A: A-And I go almost each day to ghetto during the working days, you know. And for some reason bring something there, and you know, make the business what we did, and for -- I must tell you what you have not in my paper, I a -- Mr. Greenbaum -- Birenbaum, not Greenbaum, Birenbaum gave the father of Mrs. Ma -- Melamid, his wholesale business in the ghetto, toy -- toys, produced by Polish ma -- Catholic people or je -- and Jewish people and before the war has the wholesale. And after started the ghetto, Birenbaum cannot sell something like this. Was permission sent from ghetto out, only was problem who will take business part of this, take the -- take the -- how you call it?

Q: The goods? The toys?

A: No, no, take -- not -- toys was sent only, how many people each store need the toys, this kind, this kind, how you call that?

Q: [indecipherable]

A: Lists of the --

Q: Some sort of salespers -- somebody who's collecting this information?

A: Not thi -- on -- that's -- each store -- and was couple hundred store in Warsaw, has some --

Q: An order?

A: Order.

Q: Right.

A: A order.

Q: Yes.

A: And somebody take the order, and somebody must collect the money.

Q: Right.

A: And I was the representative of these people for two years, I think so.

Q: Really?

A: And is -- Mr. Melamid introduced me to grin -- Birenbaum, and I was fellow who collect the money --

Q: Right.

A: -- and bring to the ghetto.

Q: Right. Paul, I think you shouldn't hold the -- dro -- I think you should drop the wire. Okay, good. So, there is something called a transfer office. The Germans were giving transfer certificates so people could go in and out. Maybe that's where your father got it from.

A: I don't know.

Q: But you don't know.

A: "m not remembering, no.

Q: So did you carry a piece of paper that authorized you to go on --

A: Oh sure --

Q: Yes.

A: -- absolutely. Because how many times I gross -- cross the gate.

Q: Yes.

A: You know, the German call me, show your paper.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And that -- if I saw this paper it was all right --

Q: It was okay.

A: -- go ahead and --

Q: Now, why was there -- was this connection made before the war? Your father knew Melamid before?

A: Oh yes, before the war. Only the paper allowed you go to -- back and forth to the gate. Was later, after ghetto was --

Q: Was -- was closed?

A: -- closed --

Q: Yes.

A: [indecipherable]

Q: Yes. But did that paper allow you to do business?

A: Yeah.

Q: It did?

A: No --

Q: That was okay?

A: -- i-it was not talking about me. Must go and buy what you -- I need.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: [indecipherable]

Q: And that was known, that was okay?

A: Yeah, that's was -- important was the -- go there and cross the -- across the border.

Q: What was -- you were now 21 years old. 1941 --

A: deg41 - deg42, something like that.

Q: -- we talk about the beginning. What was it like for you to cross that border? What did you see? I mean, when you close your eyes, and you think about what you saw when you walked into the ghetto, how different was it from what you saw outside the ghetto?

A: Oh no, th-that's big different, you know, and how many times you go there -- we were very upset. The people laying on the floor -- street, dying. S-Some people without the clothes --

Q: Mm-hm.

A: -- because if somebody die on the street, the other people take the clothes and sell or something like this. It was very, very upset situation. I told you before, the living situation in ghetto was worse like in co -- in concentration camp.

Q: So did you think that the Nazis -- the Germans were in some ways killing the Jews? Without - - without sent -- bef -- this is before they're sending them to Treblinka, by starving them to death?

A: Oh, sure, the German can shoot anybody on street, without a problem, and special in ghetto.

And not many German was in ghetto.

Q: Right.

A: Not many Germans.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Only was on the gates and secure the whole town wall to ghetto. And inside, I think, was pro- probably -- I never saw, was some Gestapo who give the order to Judenrat, you do this, you do this, you produce this, you give me some goods or something like this. And mostly the German ask Judenrat and press -- give couple thousand people daily, daily, for work in east. That's was idea. After couple months -- couple weeks, the Polish underground organization check where the people are going on the east, and start know that's was Treblinka, a-and Sobibor -- Sobibor, and the other camp where the people was killed by gas, and later there cra -- cremated. And -- and the last time I remember the Jewish rat was obligated -- mean Jewish rat and -- Jewish police

supposed to deliver 10,000 people daily. And this go to Umschlagplatz. From Umschlagplatz was sent to concen -- to death camp, not concentration camp, death camp.

Q: Right, right. And that was mainly in 1942.

A: Timing, you know, is little bit for me --

Q: Right.

A: -- hard to --

Q: Did you see a lot of starving people when you walked in?

A: In the ghetto?

Q: Mm.

A: Very much so.

Q: And -- and children?

A: Each -- each time I was there, all time was not not one, hundred people dead or dying. And you know, the people who die on the street, Judenrat organ -- organize the -- some transport.

Two wheels and platform and two guys, or three guys take the s-street the dad -- dead body and put later there to the Umschlagplatz. Because to Umschlagplatz people know more like I know, I understand if was coo -- supposed to be deliver 10,000 people for example, the police take the dead people too, means hundred dead, plus 9,900 people. In other words, the transport com- commander inside the ghetto take the dead body and deliver someplace. I don't know, I know it's not there. And you cannot see hundred people -- thousand people right -- right ya -- one day on the street, because each day, or all time continue, was clean the street, by the dead body. Still, I saw not one, not two, hundred people dying or dead on the street. Was terrible situation, terrible. That's was hunger, people have nothing to eat. Live very bad condition and nobody can help.

Q: Mm-hm. So this must have been very depressing for you.

A: Very depressing.

Q: Yeah.

A: Very depressing. And the -- and the -- from this time, I was little bit not sure, and many Polish poor people, and young, deliver to ghetto food, b-back of a ka -- kartofel mean the potato or something others. And work was the Jewish people on the other side, some way, or you saw some hole in the wall, maybe foot by 18 inches. The children go through. Children go through -- go to Aryan place, and beg or make business, these small guys. Bring the money and buy some -- something, I don't know what kind food. Buy something and later right through the hole, deliver there. And many people -- many time happened the gendarmes was over there and ki -- killed the guy, young child. And we was popular in Poland -- Warsaw, in Aryan area where the young children doing something, buying or -- or begging for food. Mean, even, ghetto was terrible, terrible situation. I not -- I be very glad not see any more something like this.

Q: No.

A: Only later there, I saw in my concentration camp, 5,000 body [indecipherable] was burn, because crematorium was working 24 y -- four hours, and not -- cannot burn the body.

Q: So they burned them in a --

A: And was terrible, terrible smell.

Q: Yes.

A: Terrible smell.

Q: Di-Did you have --

A: You can --

Q: Did you have bad dreams from walking in and out of the ghetto so often? Do you remember?

A: Dream? Sometime we cannot sleep, that's other thing. I tell you one example. After sta -- we took already 12 guys from ghetto, and that's was our dinner, and if I am not mistake, that's was the holiday [indecipherable] holiday. And we know start liquidate, Germans start liquidate ghetto. You know -- and we s -- held the canon and sa -- whole dinner was not touch, and burn, whole family, we cannot eat --

Q: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

A: Because we know what --

Q: What's happening.

A: -- happened with the people. Special our balcony was hanging 12 -- 12 or maybe more like the people from Pawiak. That's was place where the people was hold prisoner, and was hang -- the [indecipherable] there hang, you know, and start to do -- liquidate uprising in the ghetto.

Q: In the ghetto, uh-huh. I understand that you were arrested twice, as you were going in?

A: Yes, because I carry all the time something in my pocket if I go to -- and people who are -- I know on the other side, begging me, give me something, bring us something, I bring s-something what I can put in my pocket. And one day was, you know, sticking too much, and --

Q: It was stinking?

A: Sticking.

Q: Sticky? Oh, it was sticking out.

A: Sticking out.

Q: So people could see it, I see.

A: And -- right, and German -- germ -- gendarmes call me and, give me your pass. I have [indecipherable] I showed the pass, and said, what do you have here? Food. Take him to the police station, you know, and that's was something. And once was not so bad because I was only

couple, two days, something like this, two nights. And next time was worst, because the same problem. And the German ask the police -- policeman, go directly to the place where I am supposed to be sent to, Germany f-for concentration camp or to labor camp. Well, anyway, my father ne -- are asking me for this, go to Arbeitsand, a-and also is -- was some German Volksdeutsche who speak Polish, and for some people know each other, and for fi -- 4,000 dollars -- 4,000 zloty bribe, they arrest me and for my name we'll send somebody else, because that's the only -- in German all time must be count.

Q: Right.

A: Is already 10 people, must be 10 people, not nine.

Q: Right.

A: And you know, I was lucky. And third time, you know, I wa -- was not --

Q: Not so lucky.

A: Not so lucky and I go to concentration camp.

Q: Did they mistreat you those two times that they arrested you? Did they beat you, or di --

A: No, no, no, no.

Q: -- they didn't, they didn't touch you?

A: No, because the German give order po -- Polish policeman, take me to prisoner -- to police station how you call it? Precinct.

Q: A precinct.

A: Precinct, and there's supposed to s -- be some -- some procedure, n -- and I cannot say beat me, nly -- no.

Q: So they did not suspect that you may have been part of the underground or anything, you were just --

A: Oh no, that's just -- nothing sa --

Q: -- this kid walking around with the --

A: -- yes, a kid walking, and you know --

Q: -- uh-huh.

A: -- schmoogle.

Q: A smuggler, right.

A: Right, you see.

Q: When -- when did you and your father -- I don't know how it came about. How did -- well, let me ask you it this way, how did it come about that you decided to help these Jewish -- these 12 --

A: Because how many times we was there?

Q: Yes.

A: The people ask you, please, kiss you, do something, not for me, for my children, or -- or for us, you know? This was like -- you cal -- call friends if you are bad situation both. That's you know is your friend if you help, right?

Q: Yes.

A: The same here. I -- we was in si -- a situation where we know the people so long.

Q: Yes.

A: And the people are right now in ba -- very danger situation. You cannot he -- be, I don't care about you.

Q: Right.

A: And special we was raised like Christian you know, if you can, help. Because if you go to God, later the God has something [indecipherable]

Q: Because of what you did.

A: For you -- for you, good.

Q: Was this before the big deportation in 1942, when there were 300,000 or 330,000 people?

Whe -- when -- do you remember when you brought these people out of the ghetto?

A: Two days before liquidated the ghetto. Two, three days.

Q: This is before the last liquidation in "43?

A: No, that --

Q: No, or "42?

A: That's "42 -- for -- 43, excuse me, "43.

Q: "43, be -- right before the re -- the uprising. See --

A: Right, befo -- and I tell you that very important, good you mentioned me. We took the people.

Was one family, Melamid, four people, two -- a -- a wife and a husband and two boys, and also was the third girl. I forgot this. We was in Israel, the mother said, "Paul, you -- you know my daughter was killed there." And I -- I explain you what happened. We took this family of Melamid four, and was one girl, four years, very nice girl. And the grandmother, Mrs.

Birenbaum, said I am close to my grand-girl, I not allow you take the girl to Aryan part, I stay with her. And before was discussion, Mrs. Melamid, ma -- and mother Birenbaum fi -- almost fight about this girl, because my father liked take the girl and take to our house and raise because was two girls.

Q: Right.

A: Raise like own children -- child. And Mrs. Melamid, Mr. Melamid said, fine, we'll be glad if you can do that, blah, blah, blah. Mrs. -- the grandmother said, no, I not allow the girl go with Pole -- with the Pole, because I have already in ghetto paid for bunker where the bunker is safe.

And we pay and we go there. After Warsaw be free someday, we be free. And do you know what

happened? Warsaw -- we took the people out, and the woman, the old woman named Mrs.

Birenbaum go with the girl to bunker, and was couple other people in the bunker, for example, and one day -- p-probably day or two day after Warsaw start be liquidated, the German took one Jewish people and [indecipherable] and announce, we know you are in the underground. If you go right now, nothing happen to you, you are safe, we give you freedom, only go out. And some guy who was nervous, cannot take any more, because this was pressure, take any more the pressure, starts screaming, I like go out, I like -- the other people said, don't cry, don't do wa -- don't do noise. And the fellow started screaming, and the German pick up the voice, go there round the bunker and said, come on out, come on out, and this fellow go first. That's was start.

Everybody from the bunker go out, and was killed on the spot by ger -- by German.

Q: Right.

A: And this woman, Mrs. Melamid, the mother of this child, never, never forgot this, and if we was in Tel Aviv cry, kiss me on my hand and said, "I don't know, God forgive me, I give my child this kind death. I made big mistake, I not listen to your father," you see?

Q: Yes.

A: And the gir -- girl was killed.

Q: Tell me how you and your father decided that you would help these people, and how did you figure out what to do?

A: Listen, for -- for this part, I was only part of the --

Q: Mm-hm.

A: -- or -- or the idea. My father took own decision. We belong, like I said before, to u -- underground army, and still from our people from [indecipherable] was all time suggestion. We supposed to help Jewish people if we can. This was we can -- we can help. And my father was a

good person, a soft heart, [indecipherable] and mother there, we must do something for Melamid, that's our -- our friends. We know e -- so many years I was -- during the ca -- celebration of the - - how you call -- the Jewish are 14 years old?

Q: The Bar Mitzvah, 13.

A: Bar Mitzvah.

Q: Yeah.

A: I was there once, a second time, and you know, this was like friends, you know, how you can not -- say no. We try, we take the risk, and not -- that's not my op -- my idea only, that's my father, my mother opinion.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: We can help, why not, we -- maybe w-we be lucky. And still, for this job, you know, was death.

Q: Right.

A: Sentenced to death. And we did very nicely, very danger, very nervous and my father took one -- because not 12 people ta -- not once you can take this. And this time, German was very corrupted, very corrupted. For money, you know, or dru -- diamond or something, you can do many thing. And my father took some people and I was in -- I was in a place, I saw [indecipherable] later there, the atom -- ambass -- Swedish ambassador, and I was giving my people the signal, you can go there and open the door. You see, that's was cu -- not one those couple, people you know was involved in this, with transportation and was lucky.

Q: I -- "m going to stop the tape now, but I want to get on the next tape, many more details about how you got them out of the ghetto, and to this place, because that was -- just getting them there was very dangerous.

End of Tape Six

Beginning Tape Seven

Q: Can you explain who -- who went into the ghetto, your father or you to tell Melamid --

A: My father.

Q: -- that you were going to take them out?

A: Yes.

Q: Your father.

A: Qui -- my father, because all time like father take the more danger position and cover on child. That's happened to my father. And my -- and beside this, my father has better connection -

Q: Okay.

A: -- with the local Jewish police, and also Polish police.

Q: Polish, mm-hm.

A: And last day before the uprising -- liquidation the ghetto, m -- the German was very nervous, very corrupted. And on the corner to street, where was the entrance to the ghetto, that's was Leshno. That -- this place was mostly no traffic for only person buy good, buy produce and so on. And my father took the people to the place where was the entrance, and there was factor -- factory -- Jewish guy factory, Mr. Ravinski, where the guards on the entrance know it's many goods going back and forth from this facto -- big factory, knitting factory. And going back and forth, and has permit to go out and in, part Jewish going to ghetto -- outside the ghetto. In other words, after give some money, that's was some easy to take the people. And the people was -- first group was na -- four people, and go by carriage -- horse and carriage sac -- right? And have some boot, you know? And you must per -- take the timing right. Where the German take the

[indecipherable] how you call the eight hours and eight hours and eight hours, how you call the - - change the --

Q: Time -- the --

A: Timing, no. I forgot the --

Q: Vockt?

A: Vockt, vockt. In other words ne -- the -- th --

Q: It was the changing of the guard, when they change the guard?

A: Changing the guard.

Q: Okay.

A: Only for [indecipherable] also.

Q: Shift this -- yes right, right.

A: [indecipherable] also. Mean the people was very -- the gendarmes was very active for the changes.

Q: Right.

A: That's was the time, and s-six o'clock [indecipherable] evening, the sun going down, it's little bit dark, that's was the time to do this.

Q: I see.

A: And my father did this on the way, that's a couple of kilometer, was -- was put our people who know we doing this, from our orga -- organization and friends. Show the peop -- the -- the [indecipherable], mean the fellow who take the cur -- horse and carriage.

Q: Yes, the driver.

A: Go -- driver.

Q: Right.

A: Go ahead, go ahead, si -- for example some sa --

Q: But were they -- were they in that cart?

A: No, in the cart was four guy -- four people.

Q: Four people. Were they hidden?

A: No.

Q: They were just sitting there.

A: Sitting there, sitting there, that's was the problem, because if be cover, you know, that's something -- danger.

Q: I see.

A: If not cover, only the boots are down, mean it's all right. And you know, we was lucky, and that's through the whole Warsaw, through the German area, go to the embassadi, the Swedish embassadi.

Q: The Swedish embassy.

A: And I was there because there was round many German, too.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: I was give the sign, go ahead, is open.

Q: But now, the Swedish embassy was empty.

A: Now, about the -- all the -- not only Swedish, all embassadi --

Q: Embassies were empty.

A: -- was empty, only the caretaker for embassadi was there watching the building. All embassy after 1939, Poland fell, German win and Poland has not representative outside the country.

Everybody was sent to own country, mean the ambassador or -- or [indecipherable] sent to ambassa -- to German, to Berlin or sent to the own country. And buildings was empty.

Q: And wasn't it suspicious to have somebody driving up in a horse cart, and people were --

A: You must -- you must take the risk.

Q: Mm-hm. And did your father know the caretaker in the Swedish embassy?

A: Yes, yes, he done --

Q: And this was -- and -- and so this was the connection?

A: -- you know -- was assuredly --

Q: Right.

A: -- not that was prepare everything.

Q: Yes.

A: And Father pay money for the ki -- caretaker, because was a danger job.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And Mr. Barnard was also rich people, not poor. They pay everything what -- food or organization there for inside and each week I or my father go there and check everything is all right. And we left the family Melamid. Second family --

Q: Wait one second. Y -- did you bring food in? How did they --

A: I not bring the food, the --

Q: The caretaker.

A: -- caretaker, because if I bring, that be --

Q: That'd be suspicious.

A: -- suspicious.

Q: But is Melamid paying the caretaker to get money?

A: Oh yes, yeah, yes, right.

Q: So that he can bring in food?

A: Na -- no, this was no problem.

Q: Not --

A: Money problem was not problem, and the people who -- the caretaker has two girls and wife take care for the people, and was very good, safe place.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Now, the other part was Epstein, also Landau family.

Q: Mmn-hm.

A: And s -- for example, we take on this to -- we bring these people to Hungarian building, where was -- building was destroyed, part, and the basement -- because this building was -- belonged to very rich Polish landowner years, years ago, couple generation, and to s -- during the Warsaw uprising was destroyed and the basement was useful. Before there, that's was for -- basement only for storage the -- the wine. And this time was different. And we located the people there.

Q: Was this also before the Hungarian embassy?

A: Yes.

Q: And so this a --

A: Yes, all the time was --

Q: -- this was all your embassy associations, right?

A: Right, right, because this was interna -- you see, what happened, international law call if you have embassadi or [indecipherable] how you call the consulate, that's is -- it's international.

Q: International land, yes.

A: American polic -- not can go to the embassadi, and also German keep the [indecipherable] not go to the embassadi, has nothing to do. The sign there, you cannot cross that.

Q: And they won't cross?

A: No, no, no, not -- that's was -- that's was the reason. And you see what happened, this embassadi was everything all right.

Q: Everything was?

A: Only -- Swede -- Swedi -- near Swedish, Hungarian.

Q: Yes.

A: Embassadi was all right, only Polish underground army give the verdict, I don't know, the -- a judge who gives -- a judge give later there after the trial what -- verdict?

Q: Verdict.

A: Verdict?

Q: Yes.

A: These guys supposed to be killed. And who was the guy?

Q: That was the punishment.

A: Punishment.

Q: Yes, yes.

A: Who was the guy? This was the butcher of Warsaw, Kutschera, German Gestapo who killed thousand people by own hand. And this building was close to the ne -- building where we put the German there -- the Jews there.

Q: Epstein --

A: Why? Because we was thinking this is closer, be not sus -- suspicion. And everything be all right only we don't know about this -- the underground army supposed to kill the Kutschera. The top guy in Warsaw who tried to -- and against the underground and also killed thousand people.

And what happened? The fellow was killed on the corner where was the embassadi where are the

-- our Jewish people. And later after this -- that's a very big -- very big noose and in London, in Paris was talking about this because this guy did very bad reputation in Czechoslovakia and kill thousand people. And in Poland, on the grounds that we um -- you must be killed, and was killed this day, was big fight, you know? Underground people with the guns killed maybe 20 - 30 German guard who was with him, and from this moment the building where was the Gestapo office was -- whole block was wi -- wire -- barb wire, and we have not chance to go there. And we know the people are starving. And not long like one month start Warsaw uprising.

Q: So we're now talking 1944?

A: That start 1944. You see, because this fellow was k-killed 1944, and from one month we have not connected and the start Warsaw uprising first 19 -- first August, September -- August 19 f -- September "94.

Q: deg44.

A: And we lose fo -- fo -- with this family we lose connection, contact. We know later after Warsaw uprising, after I finish the war, the caretaker -- caretaker told us during the Warsaw collapse -- uprising collapse, the fellow must go f-from all over, and German troop, all the people, between these people to the Melamid [indecipherable] not Melamid, Mr. Landau's son, Mrs. Landau, and the third guy. And don't know what happened with him. We never see -- we was sent to concentration camp, and these people I don't know because was better situation, was call like pe -- PW --

Q: POW.

A: POW people, and we never connect with, we never know about these people. Mr. Melamid, that's other story, very interesting story. We come back little bit, after. After couple -- one year or something [indecipherable] the German, with big help of one -- one Gestapo adjunct,

Skosofski from Woodz, Jewish guy, educated Jewish guy, Gestapo informer. Worked for jew -- for -- for Gestapo, and created something like this, how ma -- if some people are in Warsaw Aryan side, because was many, many, and German know about this, and put the, you know, idea

Q: Put the word out.

A: Who -- right. Who give to any dollars per pers -- in the golden -- in the gold for person, and go -- can go to exchange for prison -- German prison of the war. And location is third building from our factory, Hotel Pulski.

Q: [indecipherable]

A: And -- you know this -- and these people, naive -- I never shou -- well, I never trust German, naive, maybe we'll be lucky. Was better situation because people can do something for me, but - - and my friends, Mr. Melamid, Mrs. Melamid, two sons, and some other family, pay the 20 dollars in gold and go there, and said, Oh we'll be free, and we'll go to France, and there we be change for prison of the war. And how was organize? Organize was very smart and interesting.

The German took these people, first transport, maybe one -- I don't -- thousand people mo -- maybe more, ma -- less I don't know [indecipherable] exactly, and take the people, put in the sleeping car, first class, and said, you are going to France to -- to place where is very good resort, because was really resort, and you wait there, we change you for prisoner of the war, German prisoner. And after the fellow go there, the first transport go there, the German ask, you must sign the li -- car -- the lease, the bri -- lease -- mean the card, send the card to W-Warsaw, to your friend, you are --

Q: The postcard.

A: Postcard.

Q: Yes.

A: You are very well. And the people all so nice, you know, thinking everything be all right. And second transport was organized because the people received something like this, my friend received too, and -- and go ni -- to the Hotel Pulski. And my father was suspicion and said, "Don't go there, I go first, because it's almost my neighbor." That's two houses, three houses from my father factory. My father go there and saw, and -- so many people, and talk and so on and so on. And people said, oh yes, all right, we -- we receive also some cards, and it's all right.

My friends, Melamid, four people, decide we are going to Hotel Pulski. My father start crying.

What you doing? Now, still the people go there, and was the second transport. And the transport go also west, because we know from our sources, and before go to France, turn right to concentration camp Bergen-Belsen. And our friends was there. And was lucky the war finish 1944, and after war was finish, I was looking for him, and for my two ma -- wa -- mother and two sister. And I was in Bergen-Belsen. And you know, two weeks, I miss. Two weeks ago Melamid went to --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- na -- Israel.

Q: They were very lucky.

A: Very lucky, very lucky.

Q: Very lucky.

A: And I meet -- after 60 years, I meet these people in Tel Aviv --

Q: Yes.

A: -- and in yi -- Jerusalem. And the woman, 95 years, the woman kiss me on the hand.

Q: Right.

A: Paul, you are everything for me.

Q: Right. Let me go back a little bit, because I realize that both the Landaus, the Epsteins, the Melamids escaped the big deportations in 1942 --

A: Yes.

Q: -- when over 300,00 people -- so they were in the small ghetto when they -- the reduced sized ghetto when you [indecipherable] them out.

A: Yeah, right, right, and close to the --

Q: Yes. Do you remem -- is -- is there anything that you saw? Were you -- were you going in the ghetto when they were rounding up all these people for those few months? 330,000 people were rounded up and sent to [indecipherable]

A: Listen, this was organized mostly by -- by police. Jewish policemen. [indecipherable]

Q: Well, but it was on -- the Germans were taking the Jews away, right?

A: No, German, no -- for German order, only personally, I don't know the German take the people like this --

Q: No, no, no. No, no. I underst -- I understand that, I'm not -- I'm just asking whether you saw large groups of people leaving there -- if you were coming in every day --

A: Right.

Q: I don't know when it was that you stopped going.

A: Mostly I go to Narlefki [indecipherable]

Q: Right, right.

A: -- and Umschlagplatz was very far from there. I never was there. [indecipherable]

Q: No, no, I understa -- no, you wouldn't have -- you wouldn't have even been allowed to be there, I'm sure.

A: Right, right, that --

Q: But did you see groups of people marching, going?

A: No, no.

Q: You didn't see?

A: No.

Q: Did you see the ghe -- the Warsaw ghetto burning, did you hear --

A: Oh yes, absolutely --

Q: -- the uprising in the Warsaw ghetto?

A: -- absolutely.

Q: Yes.

A: And I tell you one more thing, how people help during this time.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: From other unit, where belong my brother, was i-idea give the Jewish people possibility to go out from the ghetto on Zakra chimska, very close to north part of the ghetto, and this group Akar group, make big hole in the -- and they put g-grena -- grenade, and give the chance, people go out from ghetto. Meantime, my brother friends, and I know this guy, Wilk, named Wilk, who are in the [indecipherable] books, was killed. One person was killed because German from the watching tower kill him.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And the friends of this guy, who was in the action, put the grenade below the --

Q: The wall?

A: -- killed guy and blow out.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: That's was -- right now if you go to Warsaw opposite the -- some church on Zakra chimska, I think so si -- called the -- is special placard , how people from Akar j -- try -- give chance go out the Jewish people, and Juzek Wilk was killed there. Big placard like this.

Q: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

A: And happened.

Q: Did you know that there was a carousel, you know, that -- that the -- the Germans built outside the wall while the ghetto was burning?

A: Listen, I don't know the German build, this is --

Q: No, no, it was out -- I mean, it was in the Aryan side, I don't know, did you see it?

A: I never saw.

Q: You never saw?

A: I never saw, only this not German built. German are not so good build for people something like this. Only the -- during this time, the circ -- circus --

Q: Mm-hm.

A: -- was all time doing something like this, and this was profitable thing. Children go there and go around wera -- go around, and maybe was cr -- I heard was close to ghetto, and no -- I not think so. Was built for purpose. That's was a regular business.

Q: It just happened that it was at the time.

A: Happened, right, right.

Q: But it -- it was at the time when the uprising --

A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's something --

Q: -- and the burning of the ghetto.

A: -- I never saw, I never was there.

Q: Uh-huh, yes.

A: I -- is possible.

Q: Yeah.

A: And on the other hand, I never think this di -- German did this. German has other problem, not something like this.

Q: And did you watch the burning of the ghetto from your house?

A: Oh yes, I no -- watch.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And you know, it was very, very upset, you know, because was very -- and on all people, you know, who has little bit heart and brain, know what happened future for other [indecipherable]

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Because we feel not Jews, that's different nation, we was thinking, these are Polish citizen, Jewish persuasion.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: That's I feel, my -- all time.

Q: Right.

A: Right now is big -- try and be big different, Polish and Jewish. Was fellow who born there, in the same place where I born, and lived there, eat the same breads, take the same air. And must be different? As for me it's not. No, something wrong. P -- in Poland was 10 percent Jewish people, three percent was Evangelic and German, and couple percent was Gypsy, you know, couple percent was Ukrainian, and also was the Belarusian -- Belarus -- white Russian, you see? Buts now it's, you know, chop, chop, chop, everything separate. Before, I feel I born this way. This is

Poland, only differ -- think differently like I think, and has the same chance like I have, and I supposed to accept this.

Q: Right.

A: And that's my feeling, my personal feeling.

Q: Right, right. We're going to stop the tape and change tapes now.

End of Tape Seven

Beginning Tape Eight

Q: Paul, at a certain point you don't have the responsibility of Melamid family because they'd gone to the Hotel Pulski, and who knows? And Landau and Epstein, you also can't get to, right?

You lose --

A: We lose the -- I go to concentration camp and lose the --

Q: But wait, wait, there's a -- there's a Warsaw uprising.

A: Yes.

Q: Before you get caught.

A: Say again, maybe I not catch you.

Q: Before you get to the concentration camp --

A: Right.

Q: -- before you go to Flossenbiirg, there's a Warsaw uprising, yes?

A: Right.

Q: Which you are a part of?

A: Right.

Q: Yes? So what happens.

A: Well, Warsaw uprising, you know, this was, for me was only 30 days.

Q: Right.

A: And first two weeks I was very excited, and on other hand was very upset, you see, because in our unit was not enough guns, not enough arms. And that's was the big part. 30 percent in our group was with the guns. The other part has no guns.

Q: Nothing.

A: Nothing. You know, that's was the whole problem, and after two weeks I was very upset, between me and you. We di -- Warsaw uprising was -- I not see this time win the uprising. And mostly young people was anxious to fight with German. And before the Warsaw uprising we heard in radio the Soviet army put the Soviet, I don't know army or -- or -- or tele -- or radio only, ask Polish people, start fighting with German. We go, we cried now to Warsaw, we help you, blah, blah, blah, is something like this. And never help -- after start Warsaw uprising, next time was the last information for most folk [indecipherable]. Nobody help, nobody talk through the radio about this, and that's was the reason Polish -- Warsaw uprising was collapse. Not help.

And Stalin stop all army and not let him go help Warsaw because was very upset to Poland from beginning and let the German kill the Polish patriots. That's what they did.

Q: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

A: And during the Warsaw uprising, my function was not the heroic big one. And still, a-after 30 days, I supposed to go to -- through the canals --

Q: Sewers.

A: Sewer, right, to middle part of the Warsaw where was the whole army concentrate there. And because this time I was without the guns and a rifle or something like this, I was sent back and first go the people who has ammunition, grenades and supply like guns and rifles. And two, three hours before I go there to sewer, German put the gasoline grenades, blow out the sewer someplace there, a-and we was not able go there. We must go back. After we go back, I mi -- go to my house, because my -- my officer rank -- high off -- ranking officer take us together and said, from now on we have not chance to survive if we are group. We must go each other ea -- own way, and car -- everybody is on own way. And who has the ammunition, or -- or a pistol or

something, must throw out, destroy, throw out, don't give the German. And take the clothes what you have, change, and go to the -- to own idea -- own -- you are on your own.

Q: On your own, uh-huh.

A: And after this -- that's was six o'clock, or five o'clock morning, I listened this and we was s -- everybody go in own way, and I go to my parent's house where I live, and I chane -- I was lucky change the clothes, wash myself and eat something, and after 15 minute, ma-maybe half hour, I s -- heard, alles raus, bandit handehore, and something that's German ask going out, and the hands up, and leave the basement because my -- my family house was destroyed, and family was in basement. That's what's [indecipherable]. And from there out we go out.

Q: Now, you're all together, your father --

A: Yes, I -- right.

Q: -- your mother, your sist --

A: I meet my --

Q: -- and your brother, however, is -- is in a --

A: No, my brother was in --

Q: -- another part.

A: -- another part in middle of the Warsaw.

Q: Yes.

A: Ina -- ina [indecipherable]. And we go out slowly, and German put later their grenade there, and destroyed everything what was there. And we go walk from our street to the Vola. That's p - - outskirt of Warsaw. And -- and meantime the German pick up people from the line, and one of the worst part was Ukrainian, and that's real Ukrainian only was with German army, and created the line, and between these two line we can go to Vola. Meantime the Ukrainian was -- created

very bad situation. My -- for example, my mother has a -- a wedding band, and this fellow ask, give me the band, give me the gold band. My wife -- my mother cannot take out the band, because you know, is old woman, and cannot o -- you know what, the fellow take the knife, and try cut the finger for this stupid, stupid pieces of the gold. And my mother start yelling, and some of his German officer heard this, stop and take this guy out from the line, and said go ahead.

Because German are not good people, only I never saw the people robbed somebody.

Q: You never saw?

A: Robbed.

Q: Robbed, uh-huh

A: Stolen.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: You know, that's were very discipline. Like American also, discipline. Army is army. You can n -- you are bandit or you are army man. And Ukrainian people, you know, was the worst part people this time, on the world. Was kill own people for couple something like this. And after we go --

Q: Can I ask you something?

A: Yeah.

Q: Why did the Germans call you a bandit? And your whole family bandits?

A: Million people called bandit.

Q: Everybody was a bandit?

A: Yeah, yeah. What was in fighting with German mean are bandits.

Q: So how did they know you were --

A: All Akar was bandits.

Q: Right, I see.

A: Because --

Q: And did they know that you were fighting? Or they assumed it, be --

A: No, no, call everybody.

Q: I see.

A: I-I was dressed my civilian dress.

Q: Right, right.

A: And this time you know why call ban -- bandit, because Geneva convention call something like this, these are freedom fighter, right? And supposed to be treat like a regular army people.

And this time German think and talk these are not freedom fighter, these are bandit. And again, Red Cross tru -- during the ga -- Red Cross, and some other ger -- and convention people press German, call the people freedom fighter and mean POW.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: That's my brother --

Q: Right.

A: -- was POW and I was bandit. I was sent to concentration camp, and my brother was in prisoned of the war.

Q: Right.

A: And from there we was load into small train and to go Proshkov, that's co -- very big depot of train, depot train.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And was selected. And this time I was not lucky, because I have enough gold pieces, bribe the physician and the group, German group, take us out of the transport, and we did. And last

moment came to this depot s -- Swiss Red Cross, check how the German treat the Warsaw uprising people. And was one moment, half hour different, we supposed to go to physician there, I pay already 20 dollars per person in gold, and because I was speak be -- Polish, to the guy who was from Austria, German, and help me, I help you, I help you, give me the money, I help you.

And we supposed to go to physician take the paper, and meantime the SS starts calling, up, everybody raus, everybody go to train and so and so, and start -- the doctor too -- doctor was arrested too, and what happened, we go to selection place where German, one SS man suggest you go left, you go right, you know, and my wife -- my mother and my father supposed to go on one side, and we supposed to go on the other side. And my mother start begging the German, let me go together with my children. And the German said, You are [speaks German here] a Polish woman, you are sick person. And we don't know what the fellow mean. And the fellow mean, the young supposed to go to concentration camp, and the old people supposed to go free. And we don't know.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And my mother and two sister and cousin and cook and one other person, go together with us to Flossenbiirg. Two weeks drive to Flossenbiirg.

Q: On the train?

A: On the train.

Q: Mmn-hm.

A: And you know what that --

Q: You mentioned coo -- i -- i -- your cook went, you had a cook in the house?

A: Yeah.

Q: Uh-huh, okay.

A: And after almost two weeks, we landed -- because we go to different concentration camp, nobody like take us because no room. And Flossenbiirg took us.

Q: Lucky Flossenbiirg.

A: Flossenbiirg.

Q: Yes.

A: And from -- we landed there, and we go to concentration camp. This time I was very sick.

Q: You -- you got sick on the train?

A: Yes.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And stomach was terrible bad and so I was thinking of I am dying. And before we was landing out from the train, I ask the German ma -- mechanic, give me hot water from your engine. A-And the fellow said, one second, I give you, and give me this. Was good German guy.

This was not army, this was not SS, because from the point where we was take the train, are the SS men. And this fellow was civilian and German ni -- machinist -- mechanic. And give me the [indecipherable] five times be like this, hot water. And I start drinking, and this helped me, because during two weeks I have nothing to eat hot. And you know, that's probably helped me very, very much. And later, after this, we all finally go to concentration camp, couple [indecipherable] we go, because the concentration camp was on the mountain, you know, and that's was years, years ago a quarry, right?

Q: Quarantine? Oh, quarry.

A: Quarry.

Q: Stone quarry.

A: Stone quarry. And we go there, and first time we was selected, and women on the si -- si -- one side, and men on the other side, and I was lucky, thank God, my sister Wanda was also sick, something 0 -- who knows? And the German doctor, with our Polish helper, go through and see what happened with some sick people or something. And the guy who go together with the doctor, German doctor and other schreiber, I mean the fellow who put the notation. And one guy speak Polish, go to my sister [indecipherable] my mother, and said, I help you, what you have?

No, and -- you know, start talking who -- you are from Warsaw, you are Polish, and na -- blah, blah, blah, and Wanda was very nice girl, this time and this was young fellow said, no, what happened to you? And my sister, mother, talked to this Yanitsky Yanoush, I remember. Please do something because we going to transport, and you stay here, you can help our father and my brother, meaning me. After two hours the fellow start calling, who is Paul Wos? Now, that's me.

And --

Q: [coughing] Oh, excuse me.

A: And start talking to us, and said, look, you are before search, before quarantana. Everything what you have valuable give me, and I give you later, after you go, and you receive new --

Q: Can we stop the tape for a second -- second, let me take this cough drop with -- okay, I apologize, Paul, I'm sorry for this. You were -- you were talking about this man Yanoush, who was helping --

A: Yes, Yanoush Yanitsky, who ask me, give me everything what you have, and everybody, if like save something what you have, give me and I'll give you later there, after you go to the bath, you take the other clothes, and the stripe, and some people believe him, some not. I believe him.

I give you -- I give him everything what I have --

Q: Now, is he the person who -- who your sister and mother talked with?

A: Right.

Q: And do you think that he w -- he found your sister very attractive? Was he attracted to your sister?

A: Probably yes, I don't know.

Q: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

A: A-And yano -- important -- my daughter -- my sister was -- the fellow like my sister because later that all the time talk. And after we go from the bathroom, we took the baths, and receive new -- not new, only different clothing, this fellow give me everything what I give. And this time I said Yanoush, you are a very nice person, give me only wa -- one thing, my watch what my father give me during the -- I was graduated. And that's was very good watch, and very important for me, and I give him everything what I have.

Q: But tell me something, which watch did you give to --

A: Oh, that's was [indecipherable] watch.

Q: Uh-huh, so this is a different watch?

A: [indecipherable]

Q: I see, you weren't wearing the --

A: No, no, I'm sorry, different watch. If I go to military, I not take the good watch.

Q: Good one, I see. Okay.

A: You see, and this was the gold watch, and [indecipherable] one of the best in the world. And from this moment start relationship, very good friendship with Yanoush, who help us all the time. And this fellow was five years in concentration camp, and has good connection, why, and people know him like the fellow who can help, because this fellow was in the -- in the camp, and take the all medicine in his hand. Has key for medicine cabinet.

Q: Yanoush did?

A: Yeah, right, that's was very important man, and that's all people in a camp know him.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And this fellow help us very, very much. First give me chance have good -- good job there, not outside, inside.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And etcetera, etc-etcetera. This fellow was with me up to end, the lasts time -- the whole come 30,000 people supposed to go out for walking death ca -- death march.

Q: Yes.

A: And I was -- I-I left in hospital, because sick people and people who work in hospital stay, the other people who can walk, go for march. It was 30,000. And this group cannot walk, and was not in hospital and walk from, two days before, from the Auschwitz.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And cannot walk, was stand near the kitchen, and was shot by handgun by very bad person we call Red Alex. Kill hundred hundred people. The bl-blood was up to six foot on the wall, white wall.

Q: He was called Red Alex?

A: Red Alex, Red.

Q: Mmn-hm.

A: And the brain and blood was over -- over the kitchen, with wa -- was one, only one building where was brick building, mean masonary building, and white, paint white corridor.

Q: Mm, mm.

A: There was up to six foot bullets, brain and red blood. After th -- was this done, and the people go march, all SS men go with the people, you know what happened. I not go there, and I know what happened. And we was waiting in concentration camp, scare because we was sure, like the German did in other concentration camp, come back and whole hospital shot and kill everybody.

And not -- not happen something like this. We was very lucky because next morning the -- some -- we heard some shooting, single shooting and we not believe our eyes. From hundred, 200 feet, coming American soldier, foot soldiers. And the road to our -- our building where was the main office of the SS, go there and you not believe -- you not believe how react people who can walk and see the army, was kissing the boot, kissing hand, clinging. Not -- I never saw in any film, American and any other film, situation like was this time there. How react the people, and how react the American.

Q: Uh-huh. You can see it now, can't you? Yeah.

A: The American boys, 20 or 30 maximum, go -- go and see the sick people there, give everything what was in bucket. Mean, to eat.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And all the American soldiers in first line was all time food for one day survive, if you are in situation; chocolate, sugar, or some other food. These people give our sick people everything.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: For good intention. And you know what happened?

Q: They died.

A: The people die. Not -- not all. Some people --

Q: Right.

A: -- die because was too much, too quick. Food like chocolate, sugar, and something else.

Q: Right.

A: And the American -- you see, that I like General Patton, because saved life thousand people.

Q: Mm-hm. We have to stop the tape, I'm afraid.

End of Tape Eight

Beginning Tape Nine

Q: You wanted to say some things about Flossenbiirg that you hadn't mentioned.

A: Y-Yes. After 50 years, our liberation by General Patton army, the army, I was invite by German authority to celebrate 50 years of freedom. And was nice celebration, and | learn in my concentration camp, that's was small camp, was that 77,000 people, between the peop -- the 18 nation people, because was 18 nation people there, was -- most important was 28,000 Russian officers, army officers, 17,000 Polish prisoners, 3,200 French, 3,200-something Czech, 3,100 Jewish people, and many others. Between this was two American. Two American pilots, people who were supply during the Warsaw uprising, our ammunition and some equipment. And this p- pray -- pray -- plane -- plane was shot over the Warsaw and very close to our house on [indecipherable] street and two pilots was together with Polish uprising people. End of the s -- September, we supposed to go out from the place where we was and sent to concentration camp, and these two pilot was together with us. And two American pilots was dead in concentration -- our concentration camp. Besides this, was also killed in -- really hang, two very famous German officer. One was General Canares, very famous person in Germany, and because was against the Hitler, was two days before our liberation, two, three days before our liberation, was stripped from the clothes and hang naked in concentration camp. That's was General Canares. Also second very famous man was the leader of the sh -- leader, church leader from the Ausberg, I think so. This is Protestant, Protestant leader, and was also against the Hitler and was hang naked on the -- in the -- in this camp. That's was many others, and after the American, I not mention this, ne -- we was very please see the American, and American was so special, American young people, boys, was crying see the situation like we live in, our [indecipherable], our hospital. And ask our people if -- I mean, the people who was go int -- in camp, if you have something and you

supposed to do right or kill fellow who did something wrong for you, you can have the rifle, you can kill. Because everything -- no one Polish guy, not take the rifle, not kill German who was in the concentration camp. And still ration officer -- officers took the stone and stoned to death one German -- oldest fellow in the concentration camp. That's was for us little bit not human either. I

Q: Why do you -- why do you think no -- no one who was Polish -- Polish Catholic killed one of the Germans?

A: Not Polish Catholic, that's was --

Q: Not, I know, I know, why didn't -- why -- why didn't, do you think?

A: Listen, I -- that's, you n -- our faith. You not -- you are not the judge.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Judge is somebody else, you know, and you cannot take eye of eye, you know, that's -- that's our natural, and we not did this. And I am glad I not saw one person who revenge this, kill or beat or something.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And that's the point and still the living in the concentration camp was terrible, and still I have luck go through, and I feel we did something good for people, like for example the 12 Jewish people, the -- some got -- leave us chance to live through the concentration camp. That's my story.

Q: What do you carry with you? Do you think about this a great deal, this part of your history and talk about it a lot?

A: I not talk -- I have not s -- chance to talk because some people not like listen this. First is life for these people are too complicated and has enough own problem, not like listen my problem, and my past. And that's re -- talk only to these people who like listen.

Q: Like me.

A: Like you.

Q: And you talked with your children about this?

A: Oh yes, I educated my children very much, and grandchildren, and I talk to many people who are invite me to school or something, what happened, and how people react in own life. And children are good educated, know what happened if somebody lose mind and heart. That like Hitler and second, maybe the first bandit was the Stalin.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Stalin kill own people, 20 million Russian and Soviet people. Hitler kill maybe more, only not kill own people. Russian kill own people, too. That's two very bad character people, and I be glad if during my short right now time, I not see somebody who do for our [indecipherable] people something like this. And that's -- that's my point of view. I like people born free and supposed to be free.

Q: And so the various genocides that have happened since World War II, must be very upsetting to you, in Cambodia, and Rwanda, and East Timor, and Bosnia.

A: That -- that's how many times I know something -- some dictator do something like this, I am very upset. And right now the situation in Iraq is also no good and what we can do, and I be glad if the war be finish and people there will be free.

Q: Do you -- would you say you learned something from this experience in World War II?

A: Oh sure [indecipherable] experience -- I am sure I learn one thing, I cannot hurt somebody if - - if is not really necessary, because that's not -- this is my natural, and I not like people like didn -- on one side terrorism, other side people who kill own people like Cambodia and in other places, you know, those fo -- what is the reason?

Q: But you did more than not harm people, you also risked your life to save people.

A: Well that's -- Iam glad I have the chance to do this, because probably other people are in the same pos -- like do the same, only has not chance. God give me the chance do this, and I pick up.

I think that's the right way. Because some people like do this and have not chance. I was chance, I take my chance and I did it.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And Iam glad the people who were saved by me are glad and ask for me, ask for my medal, and that's build you a good feeling.

Q: Yeah.

A: And I do something for the people appreciate it. That's --

Q: So you must be very proud to have that medal from Yad Vashem.

A: Oh sure I am, because you know, you feel this way, people know you did something good and try give your chance show the other people, life can be this way, not opposite way.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: Save and not kill. That's -- what happened right now in -- for example, in Iraq, or Israel, or other places, I not like. I not like. I like people live together and you know, sometime don't take too much appetite. Take everything for myself. Share with the other guy.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And mostly the worries because fellow has too much appetite, too much for myself. What about the other guy? Must le -- has the same stomach, supposed to eat, live, like you e-eat and live. Maybe you are smarter and the other guy is less smarter, well that's -- that's other thing.

And still give the chance people be people, human being.

Q: Is there anything more you'd like to say that we haven't talked about?

A: No, I -- what I can say? I did everything what I can, and I am proud of this and like our Pope said, help people who need the help, and special help, like I help this time, for brother in our faith, all brother our faith, like was Jewish faith.

Q: Well, I want to thank you for being willing to talk for so many hours.

A: That's pleasure.

Q: And I thank you more for not losing your heart or your mind. Thank you very much.

A: Thank you very much.

Q: Okay, what is -- who is this?

A: This is my mother and father during marriage time.

Q: Do you remem -- do you re -- no, you don't remember --

A: That's --

Q: -- but do you know what year it was?

A: That's probably was in 1918 -- "18.

Q: 1918.

A: 718.

Q: Okay. Okay. 1918.

A: 1918. That's my father and my mother.

Q: And what year was that?

A: About 19 four -- or is --

Q: It's deg46, I think.

A: deg46, something like this. Both after concentration camp.

Q: Okay.

A: That's my family and left is Irena, I am the tallest one. On the right side is my brother and the youngest, Wanda.

Q: And your brother's name?

A: Odin.

Q: Okay. I'm ready. Paul?

A: That's my picture during the communion.

Q: And how old are you then?

A: I was pr-probably eight or -- years old, I think so.

Q: Okay.

A: That's my sister Irena, and me, after the concentration camp.

Q: So do you think that was 1946, maybe?

A: About 1946 - 1947 or something like this. That's the number what I hold in concentration camp Flossenbiirg, P - Poland, red triangle, that's politician, and 25504, that's was my number in concentration. My father has a number 23505. This original number from concentration camp.

Q: And it's political, you were there as a political prisoner?

A: Political P, and red triangle, that's mean political.

Q: Right.

A: Poland political.

Q: Oh, wh-why don't you re-read the numbers?

A: The number is P - Poland 23504. This are picture represent --

Q: Not -- is it all right? Okay, now.

A: This picture represent our crematorium where I was after 50 years for our freedom, in other words [indecipherable] crematorium in Flossenbiirg.

Q: And this was a anniversary meeting --

A: Yes.

Q: -- you had an -- for 50 years afterwards?

A: 50 years after liberation.

Q: Right. Go ahead.

A: This picture are my wife and me after some -- after our wedding -- during our wedding, 1947.

Q: Right. It's a lovely picture. Okay.

A: That's picture I think so during time I was student in Warsaw Polytechnic.

Q: So that would be ni --

A: 1950 or something.

Q: -- 1950, yes.

A: Yeah, something like this.

Q: Yeah. Okay.

A: This picture show myself and Israel Shakhart, who was save by me and my father from the Warsaw ghetto like six -- 10 years old boy, and now is a retired already professor from Jerusalem University.

Q: And who -- which family was he a part of? It was --

A: Melamid --

Q: Melamid -- it was --

A: -- fam -- Melamid family.

Q: Uh-huh, and he changed his name to Shakhart?

A: Changed the name, Israel Shakhart.

Q: Uh-huh, okay. Okay.

A: This picture was taken about seven -- 1975, front of the emb -- the Swedish embassadi where I relocated our friends from ghetto. And that's the symbol of Swedish embassy, and I am here.

Q: And this was where you --

A: That's in Warsaw on Bagaterra Street.

Q: And this is where the Melamids stayed?

A: Yes, we located their whole fr -- family Melamid, and the Shakharts, too.

Q: Right, right. All right, what is this?

A: This was fro -- Yad Vashem document. I received the medal for saving 12 people from the Warsaw ghetta -- ghetto, 1943. And this was given me in New York by consul of Israeli am -- Israeli --

Q: The embassy? You mean embassy?

A: Embassadi.

Q: Yeah.

A: And the same medal, the same received my father and mother orch -- after they dead already, we pick up, and my sister has the whole medal and everything connected to the ceremony.

Q: Yeah. So the whole family received it, except for the youngest? The -- everyone in the family received the medal?

A: No, only me and my parents, and nobody else.

Q: Okay. Okay.

A: Thank you very much for possibility talk about this, and I like mention one important thing.

Poland was invade by German and by Russian and during this time, Polish nation, 35 thous -- 35 million people, a-and 10 percent was Jewish, and some other nation was in Poland the same time, and we lose six million Polish citizen. Again, Poland lose sic -- lose six million Polish citizen, three million Jewish people, and three million Catholic. And all together was relocated, and was losing -- before the 1939 was 35 million Polish people, after the war, 1945, was only count in Poland 18 million people. Different between 35 and 18, that's big different, because was relocated. And so [indecipherable] we lose dead people, three million Jewish, and three million Polish citizen. Thank you very much, if you can like, ask me something else, I be very glad do this.

Q: Well, we thank you.

A: Thank you.

End of Tape Nine Conclusion of Interview