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A: The father's name Benjamin. The father was also Benjamin so he became

in Jewish only. He became Benjamin, Benjamineech, Benjaminanveech in Russian called. Then the last name Gottsdanka. Was his faher, real father was Gottsdanka. Name Gottsdanka. Was his father, real father was Gottsdanka. Gottsdanka it means you know what? Dank, you know what is dank?

Q: Dank, to think?

A: No, dank in German.

Q: Oh dank in German is thank you.

A: In Jewish such as in German. Thank God. Gottsdanka, it sounds thank God, thank God. Gotts it means he's danka. He danks in English.

Q: He thanks God.

A: Yes, thanks God. When he was in that army in the forced army, he was in a house as a house of children. It was where he came in "36 and I was in Crimea at this time. He was given there by my sister. He was called and the last name was his -- Gossdanker. Is be thankful to the government to the Gossdarkn. So he's Gossdanka. He's living now in Starodub where Gorbechav, he was working in the same comparty he was, where Gorbechav was, he was there.

Q: Isee.

A: He knows much about this but in that time he did not tell about this. Now later only he wrote me. What about in what you are interested.

Q: You said --.

A: Yes, I will tell you about him. Because not so long I wrote him. On the 9" of March I sent just him, now we became now good between, very close. I sent him a letter, a large letter, his biography. From the beginning what happened with his babushka.

Q: Do you have a copy of that letter?

A: Yes.

Q: You do still?

A: Yes. I have a copy.

Q: Could I have a copy of that later? Before I leave?

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A: I will give you, I will give you, yes.

Q: Let me tell you what --.

A: No, no. I will tell you what you want. I know what you mean. I know very good but I need to tell you this. So I sent him and that's why when I was looking over my pictures now, you see what I hold. I began to be ready to the time when I would go there. Yes, I must do all in order for my daughter. I have my daughter and my son-in-law, they must know. They would not know anything what is in this, what books are these, what I want to know them about. I try to make in order all my things -- my photos, my letters, what I wrote, what I dictate. I try to do it. I like all the things to be in order. I like when they all my life and I like now to do it. So I found these photo. I have forgotten about these. These photo you found them because when I began to write to him about his biography, I remind oh, I had a photo with him. He doesn't know when he was a child he doesn't so. He did not -- this photo he saw because it was in 1932. He left from me in 1936. He saw this. He must have heard now how it was -- He had his biography. I decide to send him. I asked Dorothy to make a copy to give to the photographer to make a copy of this. She did it. I sent him. This is the original.

I sent him thicj copy from this on the 9" of March, just. I had no answer yet from him. He would be very glad because there I wrote such. Till 1936 I will tell you all about you and later write me what happened with you from 1936. When you came to the war, 1941. When you came to S "

Q: So you were separated in 1936?

A: Yes, but he lived in a house of children. It was called a house, not a -- "

Q: Orphanage?

A: Not but Internot , a children Internot for children but very good.

My eldest sister when I was in Crimea she had a small child. Two small children.

She was a doctor already. Her husband was a great engineer. He was a technical engineer, her husband. It was, remember this, in 1936. Then her life was good, my eldest sister's life was good, very good. But she lived also ina dacha. At that time, she lived out of the city with the children. She was working as a doctor at the same time. Chig -- I left him and my mom with my eldest sister.

Q: In the Crimea?

A: No, when I was in the Crimea, my sister, my elder sister, Faina what she --.

Q: Back near Orsha, you left him.

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A: No, no. Orsha we left. I left Orsha. I did not know about Orsha, more. I knew about them, they lived there and we lived in Leningrad and we had our things and they had : we were connected with . She told me all about their life. It was not so bad, they lived. But --.

Q: When you went to the Crimea, you left Benjamin with your mother?

A: Yes. For --

Q: Where was your mother?

A: In Leningrad.

Q: In Leningrad, okay.

A: In Leningrad, was it all the things. With my elder sister -- the middle sisters they lived in other places with their families. But it is also a great thing with them. I wrote, I told about them. But you see all is connected. With the war, with Stalin's terrorism, I told you. In 1936 was not yet -- in the beginning of 1936. In the beginning of 1936 was not yet Stalin , the terrorism there. He was planned to do, was planning to do but he did not yet so much. He was in the, I told you what, I told you that place where he was.

Q: Internal?

A: It was called what -- , Internot, Internot. It was a good thing. There was own they had their what to do, . They did put for themselves. It was Y , a great man. He was the director of this. It was done for the children much things. It was good school for them. It was good for them. it was not far.

Petsnov is a very -- you heard about Petsnov, close to --.

Q: Yes.

A: It was in Petsnov close to Leningrad. He used to come every Sunday when I came back from Crimea, to meet with me. When I saw him I was not so great with this. I did not want to give him any, I want him to live with me. But he thought it is much better for him there so he stayed there. I told him all about and then I wrote him, after 1936 you became as a grown-up. You know all what happened with you. Then he was given in that place, two military schools, special for the war when the war began. Then I knew him, I saw him during the war from the beginning. Then he was taken to the war and he was actually . He was working in the war. Then God as he was Gottsdanka, God helped him to stood alive. He stood alive and he wrote me his . He came to Berlin. The war stopped, finished. He came to -- he wanted to come to Leningrad but he could not come. He stayed there and then he came to St and then he came up with this nice girl. She was Greek, from Greece. But she knew, she

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection special studied English, she knew English very good. He also studied and he studied so then he married her and he stood there. He's alive now. It was not so good with his health after the war as also like to get close. Became mom was and father is -- so he was sent to the Crimea because he was a communistic. He could not be a -- so great if he would not be a communist. He was in Elitar in the main thing. He was so, that's why he told me that if I will die, I will die not from tuberculosis. No more, such he wrote me. I was with him, not good. Then what happened later. Later, just it was 1936, I told him. It became 19_, the end of 1936, Stalin began to do all his things. This happened between our family, very bad. On this I will tell you became it is with this connect. My eldest sister, they lived very good. She went in with him in Leningrad. He was in the academic, and she was studying in medical . She was studying after the revolution. They could take their -- for students, women too. She graduate and he graduate . They became, she's a great doctor and he's a great engineer. And Stalin -- talk about this in another way. Oh, they are great, too much. No, must be taken to the prison. It began the terrorism. The terrorism began. I was not married but I had a great friend in the engineers who did, you knew maybe, the electric stations. Water station,, it was close to Leningrad.

Q: Near Petrov?

A: Yes. Near station. It was . So I was sent there when I finished the institute when I graduate. I make with him a grand . He was a great engineer, what is it, it was called. ? Then when I was working too and he was an engineer there. He made, it was, you heard about B__trov and then near Pestroy and then it was S Station what I met him. He was there. It is four hours from Leningrad. When I graduate they sent me for job. I became a psychologist and a pedologist for just at school. at school, college., I was teaching at that school and everything. There I met L An +.

He was Russian but he became from not the revolution before the revolution he was k , you know. He was k . He was starting in a special when it was the czar special school. He was elder me, fourteen years elder. So then he decided to marry me and he asked me but I couldn't because I was living with my mom. My mom was not so very good in her health. Then the child was there but he used to come to me. I could not, I told him we must wait because he was in S living, not in Leningrad because he was taken from Leningrad. When the last time, when he left me, he decided to meet and he told me he will come in the beginning of 1937. It was the end of "36. He did not come. He did not come at all. Then my sister, my sister's husband was also taken. Then was many people taken to the prison with Stalin, to Siberia and to different things. Many if them were killed in the prison and some were sent to Siberia. Many were sent.

That's why only one year she could live yet good. Then when her husband was taken and before this, it was a great party, I must tell you because it is very connected with this. A great party by ome of his students, with whom he studied in the academy. He bought a piano and it was very hard in that time to find a

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection piano. He was in the waiting for the piano four years or more. So he decided to make a party and he asked all his students who were studying with him in the academy. Boris the husband of my sister, Boris Markovitch Raised, he was invited with his wife to this party. His wife had a flu, my sister, she could not go with him. He was very good to me. He told me, Marshanka let us go with me. I was called Maria, I am Maria in short; it is in Russian, Marsha.

He told, Marshanka, let us go with me, you. I went with Him> I was there.

There were about 25 people all who were studying with him. They became great engineers. It was in 1936 and they graduate in 1925. So they became engineer, great people, great persons. They ask him who am I, his wife? He told them, bo, my wife would not come and this is my sister of my wife. So they went over to me and I made with them acquaintance. I knew they are names. Later he told me and before I know, the families of some of them. this is the end of these great, great people, the end. This time when I saw them. That came 1937, the beginning, all were taken to the prison after this party. My, what does this mean for me. My sister's husband, Boris, was taken too. Then I know -- I began to call to this family and to this family and to know about this, about this. He was taken, he was taken, he was taken. What about the children? I knew about Greg, he was very close to us, to his buddies and I knew him. I knew his children, one was a child, fourteen years and the other was nine or eight years old, yes. A boy anda girl, 14. They were taken to a house of children, all the children were taken. She wanted to stay with her brother and they did not allow. They left her in one and her brother to . You see what she did. She hanged herself.

Q: This is the sister?

A: No.

Q: This is the woman of ?

A; This is her. This is a family friend of my buddies. They are in the prison, the parents. This happened with the children.

Q: The fourteen-year-old girl hung herself?

A: Fourteen, yes. Girl made suicide. The child, I don't know later what happened with him. He stood in the . Then I don't know because I did not know about many of them. now, there came, when, look what happened there, it is about this I'm told. About I knew, I know now the names of six, seven of those people who were taken. Yes, I wanted to make maybe a book to translate. I was speaking, I was, used to the Library of Congress to one man who is -- who knows Russian, not sp great. He wanted to do this, to help me to do this. He was interested. I told him about this. He asked me the names, I told him. He wanted to do but he is very busy and I decided I must --. He told me to write it into English and it was not easy. So I know about this much. This finished, began the

7 war, 1945, 41. Oh now I come to your -- what you are interested. The war, the first days of the war as I remember, Hitler did it in the beginning of --.

Q: Where were you when the war started? Do you remember?

A: I will tell you. It was so -- wait I was in Leningrad. Yes and I was studying. I graduate in foreign languages just -- in June 1941 when we went -- the Germans came, when the war began. The war began in June as I know, as I remember, 22

, 41. First they came. It was four o'clock in the morning. Four o'clock in the morning, they came, the Germans. To Bialystok, to Poland. Then they came, they tried to come to Leningrad. They tried to come to Moscow so , they began. It was a beginning.

Q: Do you remember when the Germans came into Leningrad?

A: Yes, no, they did not come. If they come to Leningrad, I was not alive, I would not be alive. They did not come. The main thing was --.

Q: When did --?

A: I remember, I will tell you. You will ask me. I was a teacher. I know such, such away. When I am speaking, I must, to the end.

Q: Okay.

A: If you have questions after this.

Q: Okay.

A: Now I will tell you what you would not know, what you would be interested, you will ask me. Because I remember this, I must remind. Just they came to Bialystok first. It is great forme. Why I say about this. First of all, because in Bialystok, my sister was living. My sister, with her family, she was studying in Leningrad with us. Then she married and went from Orsha. She came to Orsha and he was a lawyer. Vladimar was her husband, also Vladimar. He became, he was a great accountant (?) of a great bank. He was sent for two years to Poland, to Bialystok for job, for two years. He took his family, his wife and two children. One was, she was born "26 so she was five years, one -- the elder was five years in "41, no, no. She was more. One was born in "26. She was already in "41, what?, deg26 -- she was 14 in "40, 15 almost. The eltererer. The younger was born in "34, I remember. So she was what, seven, yes.

Q: Do you remember what their names were?

A: I know, yes. I know the names. Their names, they are my nieces.

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Q: Yeah. Your sister, what was your sister's name?

A: My sisters, two of them, yes. Wait I will finish. They lived in Bialystok. Their father was working as accountant there in a great office. Hitler came, in 224, in four o'clock in the morning to Bialystok. They had to run from there. From his, the lawyer, Vladimir, it is my sister's husband. He was given from his office a car with a driver, chauffeur because he did not drive. He had no car. They left Bialystok. Germans were already there. Not only they, many families left Bialystok on this -- the main thing for you. They were going by car, two families there, my sister's family and the other family and the driver was with them. In the way, the Germans began to bomb and bomb and bomb. The bombs were all the time They could not go more. They were afraid of the bombs and they had to leave all their things what they have with them in the car. They had to leave the car and to go by foot. To go maybe to the forest, to the wood in the way. Their driver ran away to the forest. He was Polish and he did not want to go more with them. He left them to the forest. He was in the forest, he was and they, my family, my relatives were going. They took what they need the main things with the children and they went. They went and they were going and going; walking, walking, walking, walking. It was 500 kilometers to Orsha, to come, as I was told then later by my sister. At last they were at -- not all the way. They could not walk so much. They were in the wood, they came to some villages to peasants and they were there Then they gave them some food. So at last they came to Orsha. When they came to Orsha, my sister, she was smart and understood the things. She told all the Germans must come to Babalusha to the White Russia to the whole. They will, they will come, they are coming. They are bombing the whole way, after us everywhere. We stood alive, we -- God helped us, but they will come. They told all their relatives and their friends, all the people -- the Jewish people -- to leave Orsha. You must leave Orsha immediately. How can they leave, could they live? They were given, the government, I don't know who there, gave them a train, a large train. You can go by this train to Siberia. They did not want to go. They did not believe the Germans can come so soon. They told Molly, can't be. We will wait for awhile, then we will see what to do. My sister told no, I will not wait. I with my family, we will go. They went by the train, the "

Q: They went to Siberia?

A: They came to Siberia. They stood alive. Then later the lawyer, Vladimir, her husband was taken to the war in this time. Then he was wounded and he was taken to the hospital. There he died in the hospital. It was later. My sister with two children, she stayed in Siberia. She came to one -- to Siberia -- to one place where it was a children's house. She was working as a teacher with the children.

With her children she lived there. She was saved, they were saved. Her husband, and later she knew about this, that he died, later in 1942, she knew. What happened in Orsha? In Orsha, they began to do what they did with all the people later in Germany. You know when it was the catastrophe. They killed all the

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection people and -- Just with them, they came to the place where they lived, the L near Orsha, close to Orsha. They killed there the whole people too but them they buried alive, the two. How I know about this? I did not know because in Leningrad was the things also great and bad and terrible. Also bombs and hungry and what you want. This is a great thing. I will not tell you about now, about Leningrad what it was. It was -- it became the blockage. I stood there, I was in Leningrad this time with my mom. My mom was alive yet because she was with me for awhile. He was yet after the war, yes, it was the same the main war began. He was at the war. I did not know about him what was there. We did not know about each other during the war, the blockage, because no letters there, only bombs. What happened with them, we did not know. I knew only from my sister. She did us, she wrote us that she is alive. That she is in Siberia but about all of them, she told they are all killed. Only one there. They had a daughter, you see, anda son. The son did not want to study much. He studied not so much and he became, what? He became a p . There was organized horse.

He was smart. He became a good . All I remember , the name of the horse. He was very smart, he made things very good for the people, for the peasants. They were very, very pleased with him. They love him great and when the Germans came and when they kill all the Jews there, Russian peasants hided him. He was Nikhosh, his name, Michael. They hided him, one night he was in one house, another night in the other, in the third. Then he was as an actor. His sister told me about him. I didn't know about. That he was -- he tried to go when the Germans were in the . He wss going and told that he's a German too. He knew a little Yiddish, he knew a little German. He tried to speak with them such that made them -- ask he is German and they did not kill him. Then when they thought about him, he understood that they can kill him, he went again to these places. The peasants made him alive and he stood alive.

Later I did not know. After the war, I knew about him. That only one stood alive. He married in Kiev there. It was their son.

Q: All four of these people died?

A: Them, about them. It was in 41 in June. They -- I did not know about them.

What happened with me, it is a great thing what happened in Leningrad, what was in Leningrad, all the things I did not tell you now. But after the war, I was close with that -- sometime I used to go to the Crimea to the every years when I was studying. I come to Moscow and when I came to Moscow I used to stay in this house where she lived. She was more close with me and I helped her.

. They are now in Moscow. They're great, great people. One was working, my also. He was my, in my nieces, yes, my cousin's son. He was in Awn, in United States, working. Mainly yes, in New York here. He now alive in Moscow. I don't know what now is him. I knew only about them from Krotch.

She was interested because it is her parents. She told me that they used to -- when she came to Leningrad to see me. She told me, Marshanka, you know what happened with my parents? They were buried alive. She told me after the war finished. It was in 144. Yes, it was in May, the 9"" of May for us. This I know

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about him.. she told me Mihous is alive. Only he's still alive in the whole Orsha.

This she knows. Now when I found this, I told him about them too. He didn't know anything. This is about them. Now I would not tell you much because it is very, takes too much time, you are busy with other things and we will decide with you, if you are interested. I can tell you later. I can tell you not because I think on it. Ihave it. I will show you. I have it all on cassettes. But I remember now without the cassettes. The cassettes I left for my family, for the child, for this child. This is the main child for whom I am now, I try to leave. Because I left her such as I left all my nieces whom I helped to grow up as him and others. Six nieces I helped to grown up, nieces and nephews. She is -- this child is adopted -- this is my daughter and husband. In France are they. It was then when we came to America. He's a scientist. He's now working in NASA and he's a physicist.

He was invited to France to make a report. , you heard about his work.

She was on vacation and she went with him, my daughter, Elena, she's in Russian and he's Gregory. They went to France, he was doing his things and then they wanted to know France better. They were traveling about the whole country. This is their picture eleven years ago when we came. We came in "81 to America. We came 81, February 11 to America. Now is eleven years. We had no children. There we wanted a child, we were on a special waiting list in Chicago. We lived in Chicago because Chicago invited him for job. So we went to Chicago. Then to America, we were first in Italy and so to America.

America allowed us to come because he was invited for job and for me, because my father died in America. He was a citizen of America. So we came to Chicago and wev lived there seven years. I lived eight, they lived seven years. Then they adopted a child, this child. She's wonderful, she's musical. She's dancing, she's smart, she knows what you know. Now she is already in school. This graduate children.

Q: Pre-school?

A: Yes. Date.

Q: Do you remember the month?

A: Masics, mom.

Q: Month, not mother?

A: No. When she died, I know. October 22 in Leningrad during the blockade.

When it was a blockade, she died.

Q: She died?

A: From hungry because I was in the hospital three months with typhus. Just in the time when they were bombing, bombing close to the hospital was a great Z , you know?

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Q: Yes, I heard.

A: They bombed to the z . It comes to our hospital. It came a bomb, one bomb and it burned one part of the hospital. Was burned was a fire. Then became with a provoot bombed with the provoot and the water became a flood in the hospital. That we -- were lying. I had typhus, we were lying on the bed and the water and the fire. It was so far from us. It vwas terrible. Mom in the same time as I had to taken. It was temperature in Russia, 41 is the highest temperature taken to the hospital. My brother was with me, taken to the army in the city, he was standing here as a commandeer water in Leningrad. He came to see me and told me that it is very good that you are now taken to the hospital. Because if not, you had to give , to hid it for the soldiers. There was bombing and bombing and all were killed who were . [had to go there too but God gave me the temperature, high temperature and typhus, so I stood alive. He came to the hospital. I did not recognize him. I had lost my ---. He was killed in the war. We did not know -- it was only written that he was killed by

. You know what is ? They do not know what happened with him.

Q: Oh, oh, missing persons or --.

A: They did not know, they come. They did not say that he was killed.

Q: They never found his body?

A: Then later we knew, I know. I knew from one man who saw him that (End of Side A, Tape 1)

Leningrad and just I want for my work, to my work, it was close where the Germans were. They were in the place where I was working before. I was going to my job, to my clinic where I was working, to my school.

Q: That's what you were doing? What was your job? You were a teacher?

A: Yes. I was there. So what I want to tell you just in this moment only about the Germans. It is close to the Germans. They wanted to come, yes very much.

They bombed and they were shotting with the dyna . You know the dyna . It was on the and they bombed some . Just when I was going to my job because it was far from my center where I lived. It was 10 kilometers maybe to go by train. By bus I used to go. But it would not go anything. It was in spring, in spring deg42. After I came alive from the hospital.

All the thing's my mother got buried. She was buried without me and my sister because I was in the hospital. I went to my job because I used to go all the time.

I felt already good I could go. But it was hard, I was hungry. I had to have something to eat. I had a little but it was not enough. I could not go more. I said it was very great snowing in that time. It was such snow. I came to -- it was

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called the placeM -------. The name of M was done for bread. I came to this place, I could not go more. I sat on the snow. I was sitting and thinking what to do later. It was daytime and I heard that it is -- that there are stra "

Q: Shoot oh shot, yeah.

A: Shot from the . Icould not go. Only -- no people and I was hungry.

That's why I could not go yet. It was not so far but it was a long way to go yet.

Suddenly I saw a soldier. One soldier is going. He saw me and ask me what is it?

Why you are sitting here? There is shooting, the Germans. They are bombing where you are sitting. What is it wrong? I was good dressed. I have a good fur coat. I was warm dressed. I told I can't go. My feet are not going more. | can't.

are you hungry? Yes. He carried one bread. It was one pound or two. I don't remember how -- a kilogram. Bread, one and a half. He was a wonderful youth and he give me the half of bread and told me, eat. Then you will be able to walk.

Go quick to your office where you go. Because it can be very terrible things here.

I told him, what could I tell? I begin to cry and told him. Oh, my dear -- God will help you and you will stay alive. He went and I began to walk. I was walking and walking and they began to shooting. Yes, shooting I must say. I knew I must lie in the way when they are shooting. I lay. I was lying and waiting when we stopped for a while and then go later. I came to one, she was a teacher of the school where I was working, in a special office was my -- there for 40 schools I was working as a speech therapist at that time. when I came to her, she was dying. She died because it came to her -- they killed her, the Germans. I came to my office, to my school and I told them; they took her. I stayed there for a week.

I could not go back. Oh, it was terrible. I will not tell you.

Q: This was in "42?

A: It was in spring, 42. I remember all the things. It was in May, in May, yes, deg42.

Q: Let me ask you about your brothers and sisters.

A: But if they come, the Germans, all the Jews working, working all the Jews. It belongs to the catastrophe. Yes, it belongs.

Q: Yeah. Let me ask you what happened --. You said you had one brother and three sisters?

A: Yes.

Q: And you said that one sister went to Siberia?

A: Yes. This sister who was in Orsha. She went to Siberia. She lived in Siberia till the war finished, she lived there. The others, the sister I told you about the

13 elterere sister. She was taken to the prison, first to the prison for a half year. She was a doctor, they needed her. That's why she stood alive. They sent her to the concentration camp, to Siberia.

Q: In Siberia?

A: In Siberia, no. First they sent her single to the camp. I don't know. But not a, but then, yes. It is not in Siberia, first in Siberia, it was in different places. She was in K ,K was their place, city. In this other district she was taken to --.

Q: To the prison?

A: Yes. First she was taken not far from Moscow. It is R maybe -- it is close to W isR . I haven't what is the name. I know, I know this. I told about this, about her all the things. She was taken to this place. I went when I knew. When I stood alive after this, after the war, I went to see her. Not during the war, before the war, no, no.

Q: Did she --?

A: She was taken in deg37 before the war. I went to -_. Just when the war became on the 22". I left Leningrad on the 19" of June to again to Crimea for a rest. I hada p without paying for my job, sent to that place. There, when I came there, it was wonderful place. The __ room, I was, oh what will happen at the hotel, you might know. Only this I must tell you. I came on the 21 of June to Crimea, to the place, Korazun, it was called. It was very beautiful there. Black sea and the fountains and what you want. There was the mountains and the artech, you know for children. A special place, artech. It is other side of artech was Korazun where I was. Well, we came from Basen and then more on the Black Sea. Molotov you heard about. The radio was there told ;

. Hitler invaded Russia. Germany came to Russia. It is a war. In one day we were happy and then the war began.

Q: So the war began --. You were in the Crimea in 1941 when the war began?

A: Yes. Begin they invade the day. In 231, on 21* of June I came to the Crimea.

On the 22"4, was Molotov told about, the war began.

Q: How did you get back to Leningrad?

A: We could not go immediately back. They didn't allow us to go. they told, stay here in the sanitorium. We will give you eat and drink and base and do what you do. But no circles. No many people together. One of you go with the other. Only for the women. For the men, they told no. The men must go to Leningrad, go out from Leningrad, go out from Moscow, to go to the places because they must go to

14 the war. They can be taken to the army. The men, they went and one of them gave me his phone number. The other told me yes, money what I took money with -- thousands rubles because I was working good and I had money. Because I did not know about what the war would be. Then I give the money to the bank.

Not the bank, the cossau. They told me they will not give the money back us.

They gave only for the ticket, for the r . Then little by little you will have the money. Balance in some amount you will have some. Then later some all of the money you will have. But it can be ina year. They gave only for the --. One good man, one engineer told me, you see I know what various things. My life is more than yours. I am older than you are so I know. I did not give money to the bank, I have it. I will give you for the --. He gave me 200 rubles, helped me. He will give me then in Leningrad. It was at this time. But the Germans, they did not come, to Leningrad, into Leningrad, they did not. That is why I am alive and many of us are alive. Many killed were by the bombs and from hungry, not from the Germans came. Yes, from them too by the bombs and from hungry.

Q: Can you tell me, we were talking about your sister and you said that they took her tok ?

A: For them --. Short I will tell.

Q: Let me just ask you a question. Did all your brothers and sisters survive the war?

A: Wait. One brother, I told you I had one brother. He was at the war and he became a -- he was in Russia yet before the war. So he was already a military man.

Q: He was already in the army, yeah.

A: But in the meantime, in the same time, he was studying engineer. He became an engineer. Then when the war started, he became a commander over the .

You know what this is, yes?

Q: Is that accompany or a --?

A: Yes, of the army. He was taken to the war and he was close to Leningrad, Stan . [know the name where he was there with his work. But they were, these people were no good for the war. They were invalids, I don't know what, different people were there. He stood there and there he was killed but we did not know about it.

Q: By the Germans?

A: Yes. It was the work, it was not the war. But he was born in "06, 1906. So he was 35 then. He was very big. I will show you his picture.

15

Q: You have a picture of him also?

A: I have.

Q: Because we can do an ID on him also.

A: Yes. He was --.

Q: Also your sisters too.

A: But about him most. He -- what do you know about him? The war finished, only when all was finished; then we heard something to know from the government.

Who were killed? They paid the families, they help[ed the families with --. So about my brother, they wrote . It means, he was -- we don't know about anything.

Q: They didn't find his body, no?

A: Then I knew about him, wait -- from another man, . He was a Ss , you know, where I lived. He was also in the war, taken to the war, a Russian man. He knew us, my family. He knew my brother and he saw him and he told about him. He stood alive. That my brother was in S . He was yet alive. Later he told that he was maybe killed only there. He was killed but there he did not come back.

Q: Was he captured by the Germans? Or he was just killed?

A: No. He was killed by the Germans but we don't know really all the things what -- . I can't say how he was, where he was, what was, with whom he was. He was killed maybe with a whole , with a whole people. He was the main of that --. So it was my brother. Later "s wife, she was alive. She stood alive yet.

She was Russian. , she was Russian. , She was a Russian. Later she knew about that she wrote about him. That she knew too that he was killed. But the documents I did not see. I don't know. She stood alive but just before the war he divorced her. But he did not make in the way of the thing, a formal way because he was taken to the prison. She stood alive, she was very good to me but she stood alive because she was working where it was baking bread. This laboratory she stood alive, she gave me some bread or something. She may be alive yet or I don't know. My sisters: the eldest, as I told you, she was taken to the prison. I knew the name of the city where she was taken, not far from Moscow. Because I was there, I came to see her. I wanted to see her but I did not allowed to see her. I brought her some fruits, some things but then later she told me, she did not get it. But she was -- not only she, there were many wives of their husbands who were taken to the prison. They were intelligent, wonderful people, Jewish and Russian and Ukrainian, different. They were there, they living with her. Just as I wrote her a letter that I wanted to see

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection you. I could not get you. They did not allow me to come. But I wrote her in the letter, all about I knew. I wrote her, you must remember that it can't be that Stalin did a true thing. It is not true. It can't be that all are enemies, no, no, no. I know, I believe in you. I believe in your husband. I believe in the many friends, I know.

We know so said, you will be free. I believe in this. Such I wrote and such , I hope that all will be free. All will be -- who stood alive will be free. I hope and happened. In "56 when kruschev made the people free who was in the prison, such happened just as I told her.

Q: So she stayed in the prison from deg37 all the way to "56?

A: No. Wrong. She stayed when they taken. I don't know really the months. She was in the beginning of "37 taken. She was there as she told me later, a half year in the prison. Then, but yes, this letter what I wrote, it came to them. she read it and then she asked the main of there, if she can read my letter to all the people.. She allowed her to read it. She read it and thought, yes she's right. It can be that it would be as she write. Because he was also -- he understood that it can be, that it is true. She read it to all of them. one woman was a historian. She told when she will stay alive, if she will stay alive, she will write by all means a book about all of these things. She took the letter from my daughter, from my sister, my letter and she thought, I will write and this letter will be in my book .I don't know. She's from Kiev. Later told me Dorothy after -- my sister after the war. So sister stood alive because she was a doctor and they needed her. She was first in K ,acamp.

Q: This is a Soviet camp, a Russian camp?

A: Soviet. Russian, yes. Soviet. Russian, Russian camp , K . Then from there, they took to Gorki, you know it is there lived a . From Gorki, there is a camp just for such people. It was called . Iwas there. I was there where she lived. I will remind later. Just now I can't think this minute.

Just this minute, I know this. In some minutes, I will remind. In this camp, she was working there. There were all the prisoners they send away. I think they were working there. She was there, a doctor. They were good to her. She had there food and they give her as her own house, small house. She was working, she had what to eat, anything. She lived there not so bad because not Germans were there, Russians, camp. Su , itis called. It was called Sukra, it is right. is no water. The interesting such was it. Su , it was dry and not water. To translate, simple. I came to her after the war when -- after, wait. Yes, not before. When I was there, yes. I planned to go to her during the war. I came, wait, wait. She was there in the thirties, "37, "38, she was there.

Yes, I go, I told you already that I was in Crimea. From Crimea, I planned, I didn't know about the war. I planned to come to her. I bring her diploma that she's a doctor. Money for her, I wanted to give her. I wanted to come to her. But it was not yet the war. I planned such. When I came to her, I could tell her about her --. I came to her but not from there -- wait. I came to her to Gorki. After the

17 war, from Siberia. Because I took a house of children to Siberia. It was in September "42, 24" of September. I helped the main director of a house up there as a teacher. I helped her to take our children, the orphan children to Siberia at that time.

Q: How did you do that?

A: What?

Q: How did you do that?

A: When it was surround, all Leningrad. Yes, surround all the place, we could not go. But it was open one place. First it was open by Ladoga , you heard?

Q: Yes, the lake?

A: Not far the lake. Not far from Leningrad. First the people, the children, too were taken. First the children, we try to took out from Leningrad because they can't -- the Germans can come every minute. By that lake, there they were on buses on the ice. Great German knew about this, they opened the way and they great bombing. The buses were going through the -- under the ice to the water with the people. Many people were drowned and killed, killed and drowned. There were grown-up, there were children. There were different people. There were maybe military men most. Then opened one way by transport, by train. You could go by train, only one way. First was opened by St was not far from Leningrad, a place. But this train, by trains were taking many people, many children. Orphan children and not orphan from the parents who could not go, who were working or died or what. The children, they took, all the children and my child. Later she was also as my adopted child. It was a child of one of my sister's, my middle sister, Miriam was her name. Her child was taken by train to Russia to from Leningrad. My sister, she was great depressed. Mother was alive yet. She stayedv with her and I --. Later I had to go. It was in the beginning of this "42, the beginning. So what happened with the children? The train, many went because it was bombing and they were killed all.

Q: All the children were killed?

A: Not all, many, many of them. Our child stood alive, she was in Sa who did not turn, which did not turn. She and the children who stood alive were taken to a place, Iv , it was called. One city to a children house and the children they give to a place for children. Mom did not know if she was killed or no. I did not know. I lived too in the blockade. So mom, my sister Mira, she told no, it can't be. Maybe she would -- she stood alive. I want to know. She decided to go. It was a train going out from Leningrad, only one way. This time, I was in the hospital with typhus. Another thing. She went to take, to know3, to find maybe her child. She found her. She went without ticket, without anything and

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection she was asking the way where the children from this . She knew what to do. She came to one house of children, in Russian and she found her child. She brought her to Leningrad. She had not, she could not, you must not bring her but she brought her to Leningrad. Because Mom was there and she came to Leningrad back with the child. Later she became very bad herself, depressed great, and so I had to do with the child what I could. This is again about this. What will this, the child when I, in September, later. The child was not athome. The children were taken to --. It was for children, a place where they could live, sleep there and be there the whole time. But when there began great bombs, I took her. Her name was Ellenaora, Ella. This is my niece, real niece. I took her, she was in "41. She was born in /34 so she was about six, she was not seven yet, six. She went with me to Siberia and her mom stayed. She told, I will not leave Leningrad. Let them, I will be killed by the Germans. It will happen with me, what you want. I will stop from hungry but I will not leave Leningrad. She did not leave and I took her child.

Q: Let me ask you. You said that the 24 children from the orphanage that you and the teacher took? Remember you said that?

A: What, what?

Q: The children that you took? Did they go on the ice? You went on the ice and trucks and then on the train?

A: No. These children with whom I left Leningrad with her, by train.

Q: By train from Leningrad?

A: From Leningrad after the --..

Q: This is in 1942?

A: After this what happened with the children in St , they did not send the children more in that way. They tried, they got them in Russia. They tried to took the children, to bring the children to Siberia. They decide all the children's houses. One way only. This way to take to Siberia. The main thing is .

Q: But on the train?

A: By the train, yes.

Q: And you left with the children in September of 1942?

A: In September, September, yes. 24. I left Leningrad so I was in the blockade one year. In June is a year. From June, July, August, September, one end of September, I left Leningrad. I was not more.

19

Q: Then you stayed in Siberia until the end of the war?

A: I stayed in Siberia with the children with a children's house, I was working two years there before -- until the war finished.

Q: Over with?

A: Yes, with the children.

Q: And then after the war you came --?

A: I was working as a teacher in that time.

Q: What happened, what did you do after the war?

A: Oy, many things. I came back without my child, my nieces. My --.

Q: But you came back to Leningrad?

A: Yes, yes. My si8ster she's stood alive but she became very depressed and she was not good. But she was working and she was a teacher, d with the children. She was working a little and she was very bad. Mom was yet -- no, mom died in "41 when I was in the hospital, she died. Mom was not there.

Brother was no, in the war, so she stood alone. The other siter was in Siberia.

Three sisters, she stayed in Leningrad, Mira. She stayed in Leningrad until the end of the war, until the end of the war. Then she came and took her child from me to Siberia. I brought the child by aub . Two weeks by ship, we had to go. But with us what happened, terrible things, terrible. I was with this child when we left the place where we lived in Siberia. I took her and we went to Novokuznetsk, to the main city of Siberia. I had to go there and from there, I thought I will go to Leningrad. We had to go by one ship which was -- which I came. It was name of the ship. But this ship was every month, it was happened with the something. It was fixed. This ship had to come to the station, station from where I was. What station, a river station, yes? It was called, I don't know. Now I can tell you. From this place we had to sit in the ship. Many, many people were there with children. Hey came from one place to another. As with cars, with different things there were people. I knew many teachers, they knew me and they told. In this day we don't go, we decide not to go because it comes - came from every month. Maybe it is no good yet. We will not go with this ship.

We want to go tomorrow when it would come J J is the name of another, the best ship, the best ship . Like it is called in Russian.

With this we will go. Let us stay here and we'll sleep this night anywhere and we will go together tomorrow. But I was, I don't know, God helped me. But I am not religious but God helped me. I don't know. I must be a religious. I was told this by God, don't go, don't wait, go today. I decide to go today with my child. I

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection went to the head of the and told him I want to go with you. How do you think would it be good? Oh, yes it would be good because it camr from R . Many people say they do not want to go with them. They want to go tomorrow with the and there would not be people much. You would have c . All would be good. Go, yes? And I went. I think Siberia and tomorrow I went to meet them who had to come tomorrow by the main ship, the best. I came to the information and ask about that ship. When it come, did it come? She ask me, whom do you want to meet? Your relatives? Or friends? I look at her. I understood something happened. I told her no relatives. I have there friends I want to meet them. Can I tell you the truth? Yes. She told me the truth. It's very bad. The ship came 50 meters, did not come to the beach. It became a great fire and the people, they all went and drowned.

Q: Horrible.

A: I did not go.

Q: You got on the right boat, then, yes.

A: Yes. You see this I remember. About this I write my relatives now. I wrote they do not know about, I told them no, I wrote them. You see I stood there waiting in such a way. That's why I'm alive yet maybe because I don't know what for. I had to during the blockade, I had to go to the train, the train. I think to the train. I have to go during the blockade to go from job. I have forgotten c with what I could have dinner there. I ran for the cart, | came back. My train was cut by the Germans, by a bomb.

Q: Oh, by a bomb.

A: By abomb. IfI would not forget, if I did not forget, I would be on that train. If the man did not give me the bread, I could stay there dead. So, such many things happened with me that ---. But this, | remember good, with the ship. I did not go with that ship because I tell, no I mustn't go, I mustn't wait for their good. I must go with this. Such my life. With this, I finish. What you are interested yet about the second sister. I told you about this who was in the camp. She came back, she was not in Leningrad twenty years. She knew about her husband. She knew that many were killed and he was killed too. But real she did not know what. She didn't have the document. She used to come to Leningrad to us. She was very beautiful. She was looking good, just in that time when she told, I lived not bad.

But I can't come back. When would it be? After the war, she come. She used to come, it is not far. They were very good to her so they gave her time to go to see the relatives and her children. They were with me too. Her children were one daughter, the son. The daughter was studying in the university. In Russia all the people try to astudy and study. Her son was yet a skulnik, a student of school.

She took him to her, she took her children to her, to the camp where she works.

They were studying at school. Then they came and then they became students of

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection the university and he was the institute Gr engineering. He became -- he's alive, he's now you see where, in Jerusalem. It is a Liv, Lova, Lova Race, yes.

He became an engineer. He is working in Jerusalem for the government. His sister is lingua yet, alive. She became, she's 65, 66 almost. She is a pensioner.

Now [help her. I helped her when she was such. Now, came a time that I have to help her with food. I send her the organized food in New York. The foods they have there -- only to send a check and the cab comes. They call them for you is a package, with food something. I send them. I send the other -------my relatives, a package chicken to them. Now in my ages, I'm growing to the end. I must help again these nieces. You see what happens now. It's terrible things what gives from my life, what happened. She told me, just by phone, we sent with one man, one professor who was here in America and he stayed one week in my children's house. He knew my son-in-law were at the same university. He went back to Leningrad and my daughter send them $100 for my niece, forv the niece of Ellanora who is working in a school. She is a musician and she is teaching music.

He gave her and just the day before yesterday, I told him that if she has not already, if he found her, he told her I am very thankful. I have got the food what you sent and the money, the dollars we can buy what we want there, $100. The main thing, that professor, he knows English. He helps with his economic, he has a family, he is working in the same school as a teacher of English, an English teacher. Now she told me by phone, oh he's a nice man, he's working in my school as a teacher too. You . Another niece which her daughter, she's a biologist. Her daughter is a doctor with a child, five years.

They left Leningrad and came to Israel. They came to Israel when the war was with Iraq.

Q: Oh, right.

A: The scuds came to Israel when they live there. The live in-- maybe you know Israel.

Q: I know that -- I know from a map, I know from a map.

A: I was there two weeks for a trip in "85, in Israel. I know, I saw Haifa and they live close to Haifa in Afula, they live now. The scuds came to Haifa, came close to them but not to them. they still alive. When I correspond, my daughter have them sent here.

Q: Right but you were born in 1909?

A: Yes, really.

Q: When's your birthday? What month and day?

A: My --?

22

Q: Yes.

A: This I know. The 15" of July.

Q: Fifteenth of July. You were born in Orsha?

A: Not in Orsha. Not far from Orsha, it is 12 kilometers from Orsha, is Korpus, the name is. Koepus, I told you about this. I was born there because my father came from Korpus, from S . He came from a village, not a village, it was a farm, my father. It is also a great story, I will not tell, it is a great story, how he came to Korpus. His father was killed when he was 13 years old by a bandit, a bandit.

Q: Un-huh. A bandit, yes.

A: Yes, he was killed and he took from him only $30.

Q: Oh my gosh.

A: Not dollars, 30 rubles. He was killed. His family, my father's family came ---.

His origin as he told me maybe it was Greece. Everywhere were the Jews, you know. His name, his Greece name, Yefes, the last name my father was Yefes.

Efes, it's called in Russia. It is written E-f-e-s, you know now. It is my name too.

But Father told me and then later I read in the Bible -- I became interested all the things but very late. I try to read. In the Bible, I have the Bible in English, in Russian. In Russian first because it is easier for me. I read about the city Yefes.

It is aname Yefes. Then it is Yefesani, the people who came from Yefes. It was a holy city in Greece. Result that allowed to the _, of the king, nobody could come to this city. It was a holy city, not a Jewish city, a Greece city, holy. The name Yefes was a great Greece man. Who was he, what really, I don't know.

But father told the origin is from there. His family, his parents came to, not far from Korpus, St , it was called , a village where it was close to a farm, a Greek farm. A Russian farm, Farmita, Farmisha. They were waiting for the Parnmesh. They were -- it is very rare such Jewish people who were working with the Arabs. They were working with the Arabs. Why for the farmer, for the parmeshkt. They lived there. He had parents and father was with a brother and with one sister. Then was killed, my father's father was killed. His mother had a tumor , you know. It was a great bad sickness, tumor . After the sickness, the people become blind, tumor. She was blind, his mom. He became 13 years, almost 14, he came to Korpus and he was working in the factories as a worker. Later he was doing this and this and then he built one house and another.

He married and he had children, you know this. What I want to tell you, our origin. I don't know really about, I can only tell that they were not workers, his relatives, his parents. But they were Christiani, Christiani, this . You know what this mean.

23

Q: Just peasants?

A: Just peasants, yes. While working as peasants --. About father, about father later, you see, he was born there.

(End of Side B, Tape 1) ...Started and he wanted -- he had to do something. He was asked he was not rich. For him the revolution did not look bad. Is then the time of -- yes, yes, I must tell you, I can't tell without this. So he began to do this because the revolution started and he wanted -- he had to do something. He was asked, he was not rich. For him the revolution did not look bad, did not do anything bad.

Because he was not rich they had not what to take from him. He had no fabrics, he had no plans, he had no great thing so they did not do for him anything bad.

Only for the rich, what 13, fabrics 13 bosses, they were taken, not to the prison but they sent from Korpus to other places. But they took from them, the fabrics.

Na . It was

Q: Naturalization.

A: Naturalization. They took if for the government. From father they did not take anything because we're poor. But he had three houses but we were poor.

Because he could not -- he was very interested what to do, to do, to do. To give to the people, to give to the government, to give to --. Not to the family; to the family, very, very poor we were. We had to go to the forest to gather something for food.

Q: Mushrooms?

A: Yeah, for soup or for fruits, or for --. He loves the ess. He had a garden, a great garden, potatoes and what we have got now; cooking and p . You know what p is.

Q: No.

A: You must know. The red --.

Q: Beets?

A: Beets is red too but p , 1can show you. I have not on the door. It is red like an apple but red, good, soft for salads.

Q: Oh, radish?

A: Radish, too, also red. But p , it is, I'll tell you, one minute. Wait. All these, you know vegetables. What vegetables you know, you are eating maybe every day this.

24

Q: Lettuce?

A: No, not yet.

Q: Radishes? I don't know.

A: What you eat.

Q: Carrots? Cucumbers?

A: Not yet. Red, good, very good.

Q: The only thing I can think of is beets that are red.

A: You know this?

Q: Yes. You are eating every day. Cabbage! Red cabbage?

A: No, cabbage too good. Cabbage and carrot I cab give for you one time for you I will do a very good salad. It is wonderful. It is very useful salad. P 5 don't you know. His first children left Russia. I will not tell you about anything.

Q: They went to America though?

A: Yes, they were already in America. As the revolution started, then the citizen war and then it was no, no we could not come yet to America. We did not know anything. They did not write about America, about the Iam an American. He did not know anything about them, He knew nothing t that maybe to tell.

About America and about our family --. Yes, I must tell you. 1927, yes this was - - the revolution started "?17. So "17, I was -- what. I was about nine, about nine, yes, eight I remember. I began to study. I remember what were happening this, in that time, But in this time, yes, all we grown up. After the revolution my elder sister, Faina, she graduate school. Just she graduate in 1919. Two years after the revolution stated. She, I have her diary with me.

Q: You do?

A: Yes. Dorothy sent me from Leningrad, I asked her to send me because I want to tell all about. She dreamed about later, later, when she became old. She dreamed about to write a book about her life. She began to do but it was later after all when she came from the camp, concentration camp, from Russian camp. She came where she was. She began to write. It is later, but in that time, she graduate school. She wass from the first year, eighteen. Just in this short happened, it was a happy time for her, when the revolution started. For the rich, time was very bad because they had to run and they were taken. The revolution take from them all the things that are. From us, no. They did not touch us

25 because we are poor. She decided, yes and it was a lot old, they used to go to where you want. To Moscow, to Leningrad. Not Leningrad yet, was Petrograd, to study to universities where you want without anything, free of charge. So she decided to do. First for one friend. He was elder maybe one, two, some years but his father was a Jew. He was a doctor, a physicist, a physician.

Q: A physician, yes.

A: Yes, a doctor, a physician. But he was a bad man because he did not come to cure sick peasant. If he will not have for this 5 rubles, golden, five golden rubles he wanted to have --. This connect with me because I in that time I got a great bad flu, not the flu, sickness. Sickness is called . You know what -- this is how my sickness was. I will tell you later. But this doctor, my father did not want to ask him to come because he was bad. He told you will become good without him. He's a bad man. This I want to tell you about my father. He told, no, no. He's --. I don't want him in case. who was not a great doctor, not a doctor but as a , only college, ---. But he was as . He was good man, that's why he will help. , L will help. You know what this is,

c ?

Q: No, no.

A: Oh, it is a bad sickness.

Q: Oh, scarlet fever, yes, yes.

A: No scarlet fever. It is like, you must understand. This I have, this sickness when I was 13 years old. You see and father did not ask this doctor to come but he asked a man who was only, who told it would become bad, without any medicine, it will become good. You will be good, you will be ---. Such__. But Iwasa teen. My elder, she was born in first year and I was born in eight year, so seven years I was younger than she was. She was nineteen. When she was eighteen, she left. Yes in "19, when she was 18, she left Russia to Petrograd. She left Korpus for Petrograd. I stood seven years younger. I was eleven or such was I. I was eleven when she was 18. But what I wanted to tell, about the doctor. The doctor had a son and a daughter. His son became, when he grown up, he was -- wanted to study. He met my sister and so he loved her. They -- his father was bad, as I told you. He left Russia for Palestine. He left Russia and came to Palestine. That time was Palestine called, not Israel yet. He, the son wanted to be -- to stop the revolution. He wanted to stay here in Russia and he wanted to study. He went to Petrograd and he entered the academic world, medical academy. . He was already a student of the academy and he was in a correspondence with my sister because he loved her. He invited her to come to Petrograd and told her to come to this academy and you will study too.

She wanted, not medicine, she wanted literature. She left Korpus. Then about this is a great story I will tell you another time, later, what happened with her later

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection about her life, the main thing. Because she had such an all different life. She became a doctor and she married. The man was a great engineer. He graduate academy 5 academic. (electric engineer), . Then they had a rest. In Crimea, they met each other and they married later. They were most wonderful people and wonderful life they have. Before Stalin began with his things. With them I finish. Then in the time, I stood, because I was the youngest. I stood with my parents, yet. I was living there yet. The brother, one brother. Father did not want to let him go to Petrograd because he told I need a worker. I need a helper. So he was helping him anyway. In other way what father did. Then what? I will come to my mom. In this time, my mom's daughter became also grown up. Because it was in what time, in 1919, my elder sister left. She became maybe she married in this time because she was maybe -- I don't know, I do mot know really -- but she was born as with all my elder, the sister from my mom only. The first marriage, my mom. She was maybe in one -- my eldest sister, I don't know. Maybe in 1919, no, in the beginning of the century, what is it?

Q: 1900's? 1910?

A: 1901. This century is 20" century. It is what? In 1901, was born my eldest sister. But she was born, the mother of Benjamin. She was born some years young, elder was she.

Q: So she was born at the end of the 18" century?

A: Yes. In the end of 19" century.

Q: Yes.

A: In the end of the nineteenths

Q: 1890's.

A: In 18___, maybe "98, was she born, or "99. She was elder maybe some years only. But to this time, she became grown-up. She married, at last, you might say.

She married maybe in 1924 because the child, what this child, he --. She was married and her husband died in three months as she was married. So she repeat the life of her mom. Father gone, husband died too. She had this child, three months, she was pregnant with him. Then he died and she could not -- she has no profession, she could not live. To this time, maybe her grandfather died too. I don't know really when. She came to her mom, to me, to us. Mom and father.

He was not her father, he was stepfather but he was a good man so he took her with the child and told my mom yes, let her live with us. She lived some years with us. Not much, she came to us only when he was born, in a year. So she came in 1927. She used to come but go back. But when she met after her marriage, she came the first time in 1927. Because her child is -- he is one year

27

with a half, this Benjamin. One year with the help, she brought, I think. She maybe he died from -- not maybe, she told such. He was sick with maybe tuberculosis. He gave her sickness to her. She became sick too with tuberculosis.

In that time tuberculosis was cured not so good as now. She came, as she was a little sick and not so great yet but she brought the child. It was in 1927 and suddenly my father has gotten a letter from America. It was the first letter from his children, of the first marriage is. It was in 1927. They left in 1910 and 12.

So it passed 17 or 15 years. They became, they had business great. The elterer has this great business. I told you. Machines. They lived already, they were all married. They have their families and they live good. They invited father to come to them. Maybe I told you about this. He went and he had to go to us in Petrograd to tell us, to speak with us about this. To go, not to go, how with -- about this. We were all studying at the institute, universities and institute. We were studying all of them. I was not yetin19__, no I was already in 1924, yes.

I left Orsha in 1924. I came to Petrograd. The last came I. I was yet 15 years when I left Orsha. Just I came to that school what about what I told you. My sister was studying in the academy and across the street was this school, my school. That's why I came to this school. I was already in 1925 when my nephew was born. I graduate school. What is it called English? The last grades, what is it?

Q: Final exams?

A: No, the last -- the whole school.

Q: Graduation?

A: Graduation. But what is it called, depress for the small children and for the elderer children what is it, high school.

Q: High school, yeah. Gymnasium.

A: High school, yes, gymnasium. I was not in gymnasium, I was in high school. I graduate already. I told you that I could not enter to the university because my father was not a worker and they thought he was a businessman. That's why. I had to go to work for fabric and I was a worker. In that time I was a worker, close to the working-class. In "27 when father had to come to Petrograd, he took his wife, my mom and the child and she did not want to go without, this child. That's why she brought him to me and that's all. I was, in "27, I was, you see, you know what I was. Eighteen, not nineteen yet, almost 19. In "27, 17 and two years, 18. I was, I remember. Anyway, it is written. What, Leningrad, 1927, Sm

Q: What is ad 2

A: Ad is when they had to leave.

28

Q: That means to leave?

A: Ad is to leave the country. A from New York, from anywhere. It is ad , you must leave. He had to prepare that ad. . Sm with mom.

I'm with mom in 1927. Just when he was one with a half, almost two, not yet two, maybe. Then he became two in June, 1". This is the photo with mom. I have a photo with father too. All the whole family, mom, father and he's in this photo and the other small child. This one you will see there an album. Then I will show you all about them. You will, not written. Now what, about this I wrote what you wanted to read. I wrote to my nephew. Now he knows as you know. He knows too because he did not know all the things good. I wrote him and he told me from the first when I sent him, he wrote me. Oh, so much I did not know. I did not know about my origins. Now, when I will have his answer, then you will know from his letter, he will tell later what happened maybe to him later. Because I asked him to do this. This is -- finished with them. This is with the picture. You want to know, you know about my mom now. My mom, nothing. When she came, she was not as old as I am now but she was as old, she was no good with -- it was great sclerosis, what she had, sclerosis. She did not understand all the things clear what happened. In this time -- about the revolution, she knew and she told me but not so great. Father knew good and she -- when she left --.

Q: After the revolution, did she work?

A: Mom?

Q: Yeah.

A: No, she did not work at all. Her whole life.

Q: She raised her family, right?

A: Yes. She raised her family and she had so many children, :

Q: But she didn't have a job, like in a factory or anything?

A: No, no. In that time the -- she had more as we have. I was working my life 50 years and when she was in "27, she was only not so old. From "71 is 29 and 27, it is 30, it is 56. She is looking not so young, 56. You see back when -- she is not working. Father was doing -- he used to do all the things. She only, yes, she growed the children. When she came to me, she could not help to grown-up the child. I used to do. I used to work, first of all economic our in material way to help with money. Because the eldestes were -- they lived with their families.

They had children too. I was not married, I was young so I had to do these things.

I had to cook. Mom was that she could not cook. Later when the war -- I

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection remember when the war started, mom asked me, what happened? Where is Michael? Where is Mike? Mike, she called him. Misha, Misha. Where? I told her, he had to go to the war. You see, he's a wheelchair man. What happened. I told about the war. She told, oh it's terrible, but I think it can't be that it would be a war, a Great War, she told such. Because she didn't know much things. She became not so good with her health. I used to do all the things for her, for the child, for other children, for other -- I told you what happened.

Q: She lived with you in Leningrad after 1927? She stayed with you?

A: Yes, she stayed with me. Later my brother, one brother, after "27, he was in the army when father left for America.

Q: This is Mikhail?

A: Mikhail. He was two years there. He became litcherman . You know what is li ?

Q: Yes.

A: Yes? And he came back from then back to Korpus. Because in Korpus there was not only that she was sick, his mom. Then later she come in -- no it is later.

He, the brother, he came from the army to Petrograd, just to me, to my house.

There he have got another room. We hada room. I had a room in a apartment.

Commune, but not the whole apartment there. Later he was given from the government, special room in a good apartment. Together, his room and my room, we together made, in 1929 was it. I remember very good. We change for a good grade apartment, only large apartment from three large rooms.

Q: So then you were all together?

A: All together, yes. He made it later. He wanted to become a musician too. He's great in music, he was great.

Q: When did he get married?

A: He studied, he studied violin. But then a little, he studied then he studied himself.

He was -- he used to play himself and he wanted to go to a conservatorium to study music but he had to go back to study, to see first, to finish, to graduate school. He had not . You know what this is?

Q: Yes.

A: , when he graduate he entered an institute. It's called In .

In Institute. Engineer -- and he graduated. He entered this institute and 30 he graduated this just as the war. He became a great engineer. He graduate for the war to be killed. Then he married.

Q: He died in the war?

A: Yes. Then he married Villa Lavana. It is his wife, it was his wife. A younger girl, she was Russian, she was real Russian. Villa Lavana. They lived all together with us. We gave them one room for them, one room for me and for mom and for the child.

Q: Do you remember what year he got married, Mikhail?

A: When he got married? Yes, when we came to this house, "29, it was maybe in the beginning of the thirties. Maybe it was in *32, "33, yes. When Villa Lavana, before the war, before the war, yes. In the thirties. In the beginning of the thirties, I think. They had no children.

Q: Was Benjamin going to school in the thirties?

A: Not Benjamin. Benjamin was not with us. No, wait, yes. Benjamin was. It was in 1927-29. Yes, he entered school when he was seven. He came "27, yes. In 730 he entered school in "34 almost "34 when he became seven. At that time but he entered before the first is now pre-school. It was called in Russian, L s So he was not maybe yet seven in "24. Just in this time, I graduate my first institute, institute.

Q: What year was that?

A: When father left -- now I must tell something about me, myself. About them you know what you wanted -- about mom you know, about her sister, she was living with them and she married. She lived not far from Orsha. I must finish about them till you know about me. You must know about this. Her family --.

Q: What is her --? Tell me their names. Do you remember? No?

A: I must -- I will remember but later. Now I don't remember.

Q: Okay.

A: If I can -- what I can do. I don't know if she's her daughter or . [don't know what she's at home. I told you. She lived in Moscow all the time.

Q: Do you remember her name?

A: Emma.

31

Q: Emma?

A: Emma.

Q: And she is your cousin?

A: Yes. Emma. Her name was Emma. She changed to Etal.

Q: Etell?

A: Etal, Etal. A-or maybe E-t-t-e-l. But I knew her --.

Q: Do you remember her last name?

A: Last name? Last name, I know. Last name -- it is his name because he was her father. Hassman.

Q: Houseman?

A: Hassman. First would be -- like H, yes? H-a-s-man. It is more close to Jewish, Hasman.

Q: Do you remember when she was born?

A: Jewish and German name also, man when finished. When, what?

Q: When she was born" Ettel, Emma?

A: Yes, I know. Just when she was in Leningrad, she told me Marshanka.

Marshanka is my short name. She told me, you see I am already older than you are, much older. I am from 1903. So I remember this -- because of this, I remember. I remember very good all of -- the figures, I remember, the telephone number, I remember. She's from 1903. That's why now, she is what? About 90; she is 89.

Q: Yes.

A: I don't know if she is alive. I don't because she could not write me because I am in America. She was in a great job, close to the university, to the academy where she was studying. , you know what this is? Academy for the farms and she was working the whole life. This boy, he was wonderful and he became wonderful. He grown up, I told you, he was an engineer. They live in Moscow.

Q: That's Vilodja, right.

32

A: Vilodya Ragena. The whole name is , we must say Vilodya, short name. , his father was not Jew. He was Russian. , maybe he was Polish. The name finished ki, Polish name, ki, was his father.

Q: He was born in 1930?

A: He was born -- yes. Look here. He's about what? One year.

Q: Two or three.

A: One year. So he's born in 1931 maybe, or "30, maybe in "32. He's seven and he's maybe about two. So he's younger. If he's alive, he's younger, now in Moscow. I will try to write them, to Moscow, to find them. Who stayed alive.

Maybe will tell me about Alvad..

Q: If she's still alive, maybe if she's still alive, maybe she can tell about her parents?

A: Oh, she can tell more. She can tell all more if she's alive. Yes, she can. I will try to find her. Maybe I will find him if she's not alive. He knows too. I will. I have a black book where is written the Russian addresses and the phone numbers.

But I have to write, we could not take it. We were not allowed. I had to write it in English, I wrote it in English as they are American. They write in such a way, not to understand that they are Russian. With this I finish.

Q: Well, let me actually ask you a question. What happened to your mother? You said that she died in Leningrad. Can you tell me --?

A: With mother, so, yes.

Q: Tell me about, you know --.

A: Yes, yes I will tell you. This happened with them. It was in the beginning of the war, yes? In "41. Just with my mom, was a -- she was alive, she was alive yet in that time. But I was bad. I became bad because I told you that I was in the time before the war. The war started in 1941, 22" June, the Germans began to surround our Leningrad. I in that time, I graduate in foreign languages and before the medical -- it is psychology medical department. I was studying in that institute. It was called , the name of Gertson. You know about Gertson?

Q: Yes.

A: This is the name our institute. The owner of Gertson. In that institute I was studying. I graduate in 1933. Then what happened to me is a great story. I will tell you next time.

33

Q: Okay.

A: But what is connected with this, I can tell you now what you are interested. You are interested in what?

Q: Let's see. Tell me about your mother and when she died.

A: My mom, yes. When the war started, I and mom we were in Leningrad, living, yes? This child, he was taken to the war, Benjamin. My brother was taken to the war but he was staying yet in Leningrad, in Petrograd, Leningrad was yet. Think about every . He was in the army, brother. Sister, one sister, Miriam, she was living with us too in Petrograd, Leningrad. Leningrad she was living yes.

We live only so we --. When the war started -- before the war, brother was yet with them, with mom. He was not taken yet to the --. Sister was too and I was before the war. But it was three days before the war. I left Leningrad. I left in 19, June 19, June 19. The war started in June 22. You see in three days, the war.

I told you that already the newspaper it was written. It was written an article about the war -- about such. SI __. It means it is heard, people say, that soon, that it can be , attack Russia. Don't believe it.

Such was it written.

Q: And this was written in the paper in Russia?

A: In Russia, paper Pravda. In the paper, Pravda, named Pravda. I used to read the newspapers all the time. When I read this, this what is it, they say in English ---.

Q: A headline?

A: Headline?

Q: Headline. The big words across the page?

A: No, not big, short.

Q: Oh, article.

A: An article, a short article was it written, only about the war. That it is " Not past, _ "

Q: Yes.

A: It was a wonderful meeting, it was written.

Q: A pact.

34

A: Yes, a pact. What _ .

Q: So there won't be any war?

A: Yes. But it is said that it must be a war. That Hitler wants. So people knew -- maybe great correspondents knew. They wrote about this, they knew. But we did not know anything. We believed the newspaper. I believed the newspapers that it would not be the war, that's why I left Leningrad for Crimea. I had given from my office, p to a sanitorium without -- free of charge. Not to pay because I was working good, very good. In that time I was working, it was what? In June, deg41. Yes, I was working, working already as a speech therapist. Because when I told you, Vilodja was not -- we were teachers of psychology, I was, but it was not much hours to have, to teach. I studied again, I told you I studied in of speech therapy and I began to work as a speech therapist in 1938. In this time I was a speech therapist. I was working in some great rayon is what it's called.

Q: Region, yeah.

A: What?

Q: District.

A: District. In a wide district, in a large district. In one, in another, a place in one school, I was working in three places. In a hospital, not a hospital, in a clinic. I was working in that time, it was already Finland. We took from Finland,

a . Before called T . In Finland was it, in Finnish was it, T called.

Q: Finland, yes.

A: This T , Russia took from Finland. It was our out from Leningrad, was T

Q: That's in --?

A: It is fourteen minutes by train to T . They allowed me to wait there. I was in the same whole district.

Q: So you worked in Finland?

A: Yes, as a speech therapist. But it was already Russian. It was former Finland but it was already Russian. They invited me to work there in the whole, whole district. For many schools, I was a speech therapist. For many schools and for children's houses, all what were there. There were many places, it is not only --.

There was R , them called R , you know . Before was T

and R has another name and many. It is close to -- used to come 35 after gold -- Baltic Sea. In the beach of Baltic Sea, to go by bus, we could come to Helsinki.

Q: Helsinki, yeah.

A: City of Finland. It was only 18 kilometers, I remember. By bus, we could come to Finland. But this we took to the city of and other places. There I was working as a speech therapist. Then Russia and Leningrad, near Sk , the whole Sk , it was a working rayon, because there were many fabrics.

Working class children and then I was working in the central rayon as a teacher of English at that time. Because I graduate as a speech therapist and I began to study and easy to talk foreign languages. Studied English and a little French, a little German but most English. I graduate to the war. After the war, there were very few teachers and they insisted me to teach, English. I began to teach English and the speech therapist at the same time. I was teaching English in one school. I was speech therapist in a great district, there were 40 schools. For 40 schools for children. I was a speech therapist. In in Finland, I used to go for two days. Two days there, two days there, two days there such I was working. It was what then -- I know what -- what happened. My mom and I and sister before the war, we lived in Broday. At this time, my Benjamin he was in the house of Internot, Internot of children -- He was already also taken to the war. As he graduate a military, a military college, special in this international. Special for the war. He was -- I don't know what he was. You know, with -- not in the air, not in the water but was --.

Q: Infantry, he was in the army?

A: In the army but he was what in the army, Not a simple, but a specialist, ----

Q: Artillery?

A: Sniper, sniper, sniper.

Q: Oh, a sniper, yes.

A: Sniper, as I remember. He will write me because I ask him about all what he was --- I don't know so end. Brother, I told you was in the army in Leningrad yet.

He was there but not at home living. Mom, yes, when the war began, yes I was in the Crimea. I came back only --no, no. In "41 was it? Yes. 42, already "42.

deg41, the whole year "41, I was in the blockade.

Q: So you -- as soon as the war started, you came back from the Crimea?

A: Then I was as a speech therapist working, yes. Not yet as a teacher of English. It was in 41,42. deg41, yes, but where I was --. When I came to Leningrad, no, wait, wait, I will tell you. I came back when the war started but --. The war

36 started, yes, I was in Crimea till 13 of July. From my front, the way we had to go there. I go there to -------. I came June 20, first I came to this sanitorium, to Crimea. You heard about Artech. It is the other side of Artech, is Sanitorium Coraasm. There I was living. I came to this place and in the 21" of June.

(End of Side A, Tape II)

Q: Can you tell me her name? First of all, we'll start with that.

A: Yes, I know. Her name is Lea.

Q: Lea?

A: Lea. L-e-a.

Q: What is her last name?

A: Last name, she had first -- the name, I will tell you what she had. She had three names, last name. First name was her father. Father's name was Luzek. L-o-t-z- e-t. Lotzet is her first name of her father, is her father's name. Then -- you want her name, the other name was -- when she was married? She had a name P

>> P . This is a Russian name, not a Jewish name. First name is a Jewish name. The other, I don't know, don't write what it was Russian or Jew.

He's K , he was. Her husband. So she became K . Do you remember when she was born?

Q: When she was born? When her birthday was?

A: When she was born?

Q: Yes.

A: You see what -- she was born as I told. Oh, they were strange, the old people there. They did not remember as -- many of them -- as when they were, their real date. I know about father and I will give you the beginning of what I wrote the first chapter I told you. It's all written about father's life. His origin, I know.

About mom, very little. Only that she married him. But when she was born, I knew about -- from father. He told me he was from "61, 1961.

Q: 1861, right.

A: No, not 1961, 1861. But the day he was born, I don't know the date. Mom, he told ten years younger.

Q: So she was in 1871?

37

A: Yes, in "71. Her passport, I don't remember what date it was. She told me I was younger, I am younger than my husband. Yes, no, she was younger than her husband, ten years, she told me too. Where she lived, what you're writing this.

Q: Where was she born?

A: She -- all we were born in Russia first of all but it was White Russia, called. I was born when she married my father in Korpus. It was called M

, a small city, a town.

Q: that's where she was born?

A: No, I was born there. She came to my father to this town, to Korpus. They were married in Korpus. But one -------, it is called, Dubro . Itis called in Russian, M D -. It is like a small, a very small town but it is very beautiful. I was there when I was three years old. My mom took me there. I remember we were going to this place by pr , by ship, a small ship. There she was born. It's a very nice, very nice nature was there, I remember. Forests, forests and forests and a small . She was born there, yes and she lived with her, yes. But her mother -- I don't know about her mom, what she was, how old she was. But in that time, the women, yes, such women, they did not used to work. Their husbands were working only. Her father, my mom's father was a teacher. He was from more intelligent family than my father. My father was from peasants, his origin. Maybe it is Greece because he told me about from Greece they came. Because his name, my father's name is -- my name is my father's name is Efes. It is as, I told you, a city of Greece. From that time maybe the origin as father told. He did not know also really from what his origin, you see, my father. Mom, in that time, I knew only that, as she told me, the father was teaching --.

Q: Her father was a teacher.

A: Her father was teaching Evereet.

Q: Evereet?

A: Evreet. Hebrew.

Q: Hebrew, oh, okay.

A: Hebrew, Hebrew just in a special school for children. A Hebrew school, special this language. He knew this language good but not all Jews, he was a Jew, but not all Jews knew Hebrew. They knew Yiddish but it is close to German. Yiddish and German is very close so they knew the German most by the other language.

Then Hebrew. Hebrew, it is not an easy --. | listen about Hebrew but I -- my

38 father wanted me to teach Hebrew. Me and my brother when I was eight, ten years old. In that time, I began to read this Hebrew because I -- special teacher used to come and give me Hebrew for some time, I don't know how many. I have a dictionary Hebrew, I have all the things, I will show you too. It translate into English, Hebrew and English, Hebrew and English here.

Q: So this was -- your grandfather taught Hebrew, your mother's father?

A: Yes, my grandfather, he taught Hebrew.

Q: Do you --. Did your mom ever tell you stories about when she was growing up?

A: About what?

Q: When she was growing up?

A: Which?

Q: Your mother. Did she tell you stories about her when she was a young girl?

A: She told me that she did not -- she studied a little. Maybe in the school where he taught Hebrew, her father. Or in a Russian, in a Russian school she studied. But not much.

Q: Do you remember --?

A: She was not, she was not great educate. She was not -- she had no profession.

She knew only to sew, sew on a machine a little, this she knew.

Q: She went to school for a little while?

A: For what?

Q: For a short period of time?

A: I think that she only has the school for the children, till the 8" grade. For the first children what is it called, . In Russian. She had Russian.

Q: Primary school.

A: Yes, what is it?

Q: Primary school instead of secondary. Secondary would be a high school or gymnasium.

A: The first was?

39

Q: A primary.

A: Yes, a primary school. Primary school, yes. I think not great because she was not ---. But she could read, she read yes, I remember that she could read Hebrew.

Because when we used to go -- when she used to go and she took me when I was a child to great temple, synagogue, I don't know what was it --all had books and all were reading. She was reading too. It was in Hebrew. There the books were translate into -- the things were translated into Russian. Here is translated into English. So she knew this, Hebrew she knew, yes. My father knew good Hebrew. He spoke Hebrew with different people. He gave Hebrew for others, yes..

Q: Last time I was here you spoke about the pogroms in Russia, in the 1800's. Did your mother ever tell you about the pogroms?

A: No. Because you see there was not pogroms yet in Sh where she was living. Where I lived, I lived so it called M Korpus. Close to Orsha, 12 kilometers to Orsha. It was Sk . Sk also not far from us. But there was also, Sk was a trade city. Ours was I told you fabrics, fabrics there were many living Russian people. Because the workers of the fabric were Russian most. The bosses were mostly Yiddish, Jews. Then after the revolution, yes, it was taken from them. But they did not kill them. You see, just in this place where I live, I did not see pogroms. But I knew about this, what happened and the other things, not far from us. Where was it, in Ukraine most, Ukraine places. Yes, in these cities were pogroms. Mom knew about the pogroms, she told me but not about the pogroms there. But what I know --you know so about mom, what you want to know more?

Q: Do you remember when your mother got married?

A: Yes, I don't remember but I can think such. She, the child was -- she was married maybe when she was-- from "71, this is deg90. Maybe she was married in 1905. It is strong, I say to you approximately, yes, because I do not know really. Maybe in such because her daughter, yes. She married . What was her husband? I think he was not so great. He was maybe, I don't know, her husband.

Maybe close to working class.

Q: This is your father?

A: Mom, my mom's husband, not my father, first husband.

Q: First husband, I see. Okay. so the first time she married in 1895, approximately?

A: Yes. Approximate. Then, just this I wrote to my nephew about this. What you want to know. This I will tell you now. About this I wrote because it is his

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection biography. She was married. I don't know when she had the child. Maybe ina year or in two after her marriage. This child was a girl and very soon after this her husband died. She became a widow with her child, with a girl. This girl later would be my nephew's this Venja's mom. When my mom became a widow and she had a child, her life was bad. Because she had, I don't know from mom, they were alive yet and her father was working. Her mom, she did not work, maybe she was only as a bride and the mom --. My mom, my real mom, Lea, she met my future father in a house of her relatives. To that time, my father became a widow too, a widower, yes. It is for men, a widower. He have already five children. He was older than her. His life was very hard. He was working and doing much things for the children. He tried to give them education. So he had to be married. He has -- it connects with this. He had married twice. His first wife died and he had from this wife, four and then two, six children. The first two children died when they were three, I don't know, three, two years. They were a great, too smart (?). They died from, she worked, from . Itis a great

too smart. It is called, meaning menigit .

Q: Meningitis.

A: Meningitis. They died the first two, boys. Left four children, three boys and one girl. I don't know when and in some years, he married again, . From the other he had only one girl. She died very soon too. So he became a widower, with five children, three boys and two girls. In that time he met my mom and she was a widower, a widow with one child. This child would become . No, now later -- what she did. When he, was it called?

Q: When did she meet your father?

A: She met my father. Father understood that she was very beautiful in that time.

What yet, younger than he. Maybe it was sw . You know in Russian, sw

. When we -- there were special people who married you -- who want to marry you. They found for you a girl and they speak with you and with the girl and they --.

Q: A matchmaker.

A: Yes. Was is it? A matchmaker. Maybe they have such. Father decided to marry her.

Q: Do you remember what year it was that they met?

A: This year was -- wait. It was when she became a widow, it was before the ninth century.

Q: Before the 20" century?

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A: Before the ninth. It was in the century 18 _, in the 19" century -- in the last years of 90's, in the last maybe was born her daughter. She married him but she had already her daughter. she could not take the daughter to father because father had five children and her child yet, it would be hard. Her father, my mom's father, what was his name, I've forgotten, he told her give me the child. He took her child, her girl and she lived with his -- with her grandfather and grandmother.

Q: They had six children? Five of his, one of hers?

A: No. I tell you no. My mom's -- when she married my father, she gave -- when she had to be married -- she gave her child to her father.

Q: Oh, I see.

A: To her father and mom to my grandfather and my grandmother. She left the child there because they lived good. They had a-- the economic was not bad. He was a teacher. He loved the child, he took the child to himself. She left the child. But it was not far from Korpus. It was very close. She could go and see her; she could take her one time. This I don't remember, what she did later. But the child was being educated by her grandfather. My mon lived with her father. Then came the time when we began to born. My eldest sister was born, this I know.

She was born in 1901. Also it was one year old, we not writing the passport. She told me in the passport was she nineteen-one, write this in the passport. But really she told me that in 1902, as I. In the passport, I am eight year and I am really in nine. One year, it was a mistake, they wrote in one year, all of us. Not so, she was born in 1901, my elder sister, the first whom my mother had got. Faina is her name.

Q: Faina?

A: Faina.

Q: Can you spell that for me?

A: F-a-i-n-am Faina. But maybe, it was in Faina in Russian, the name. But maybe she was in Yiddish language, maybe she was in another called, Faga, maybe, was it Faga, in the Yiddish name. Or Fagel, Fagel is like a bird. A bird is fagel, you know, in German and in Yiddish, fagel, yes. It is a first girl. Then she had they together with my -- so it was my real father and my real mom. But then they have another child, another girl, Her name was, you're right. Later was Olivia, but she's Aida, Ida.

Q: Ida. I-d-a?

A: A-i-d-a. There is an opera, Aida.

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Q: When was she born?

A: She was born in -- after this one. She was born, I'll tell you -- in 1903.

Q: Do you remember her birthday?

A: Her birthday -- I knew. Her birthday was -- I knew her birthday. In 13" of June.

Yes.

Q: Do you remember Faina's birthday?

A: Faina's birthday, yes. She's in October, second, as I remember, the second. The second of October.

Q: When was your birthday again? I forgot.

A: Fifteenth of July.

Q: Fifteenth of July, yeah.

A: Just in July this sister, she died in July. I will tell you. I know what you need.

Now you need to know the third sister, my sister, the third sister. My Lea's daughter, my mom's daughter was born in 1905 and she was --.

Q: What was her name?

A: Her name was Miriam in Yiddish. This is Mirra; we called her Mirra. It short, Mirra. Mirra is M-i-r-r-r-a in Russian. In Yiddish, it is Miriam. I remember from the Bible.

Q: Let me ask you a question. Do you have pictures of your sisters?

A: Yes. I have a picture from all of us. From all of the pictures. I have photos, I will show you.

Q: You will? Good.

A: Yes, I will give you if you want to make from them other pictures. I will give you. All the pictures of all of them, I have. It was not allowed to take but from Russia that time when we left Russia. But my friends and one sister, they sent me by mail. They mailed it and that's why I have it. I made it.

Q: Do you remember Miriam's birthday?

A: Miriam? 1905.

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Q: Do you remember the date?

A: The date, what was? She did not like. She was different as we all were. She did not like to have birthdays, to have parties, to make great, you see, holidays. She did not like to this so maybe she did not tell. But I can know because her daughter is living in Petersburg now.

Q: Oh, really? Yes.

A: We're in correspondence. About her, I do not know. I know yet, I have nieces in Petrograd. Leningrad, Petersburg. The first, the elterest nieces is Milya. Her name is also Mirra. She's Maria as I am -- written in the passport. She is now also from the 26" year; she is also about sixty-six, what, 65, no. She is ina correspondence with me. I help them. I send them some things, food and what to give, and money. She knows good about her mom. But I know about. She sent me; she said to me when I began to write the story of my life. She sent to me, this eldest, my sister, she was very good in literature.

Q: Which one?

A: The elterest, Faina.

Q: Faina.

A: She began to write rhymes, yes? She wanted to be a poet. She had very good, I remember, I read them. Her rhymes. When she was young, 15, 17, in these years. She wanted to become a literature also as you, a writer, a poet but she became a doctor. This is from -- this is what I will tell you when I tell you all of my what was dictate into my cassettes. Later about their life, I will. I say only now I know you are interested in the life of my mom only.

Q: Yes.

A: By the way, I tell you about my sister and brother. So Miriam, they were three sisters, three children of my Lea, of my mom and then only one brother, Michael.

Mikhail in Russian. Michael, he was -- his Jewish name what they gave him. I now remind. It is as Misay. Misay is the prophet, you know prophet Misay. He became a -- his name was Moisaye. Short they called him Moishe, or Misay we used to call him. Then he became Michael. It is in English. He was Michael in Russian, Mikhail. was his name.

Q: Like Mikhail Gorbachev?

A: Yes, like Mikhail Gorbachev but Gorbachev Mikhail Is . He was Mikhail Illich. Michael Illich. It is because my father was Illa. His name was in Russian, in Yiddish, Elle Elyoho. It is in Yiddish, real Yiddish is Rlyoho.

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Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection It is in Russian Ella, the same as Lenin. lam Maria Illich, , his sister. sister was my . You see what but I am not . He was more smart than lam. He was great. It is said about him, bad, but he was great. I have his all in my library, there was a library, his works. I remember 18 books, his works, great works. But he's -- by the way, it is written here he's close to Marx and . You know this. But as we do not want to know about communism, I can't now to ---. You see, to speak this to you to make you maybe a communist. I don't want to make you a communist because in America they do not like communism.

Q: No, they don't like communists in America.

A: But one correspondent, great correspondent wtote good we can say about communism. About communists, bad communists but the idea is good, he wrote.

Q: That's right.

A: And I think the same. I belong to this. That the idea is good and just now again I will tell you about this Russian work I read yesterday before I go to bed. I go to bed and I am reading before I fall asleep. I was reading just about a great writer, wrote about Israel. He wrote you see what, about the kibbutz. You know in Israel they like --. Were you in Israel?

Q: No. But I know about the kibbutz.

A: You must go and see the kibbutz. You know about -- I was there.

Q: Yeah.

A: Yes, I saw the kibbutz.

Q: Very much like communism. Kibbutz.

A: This I want to tell you. This is what wrote here. That there was real communism and it was wonderful when I was there. I was in "85.

Q: 1985.

A: 1985, yes, not in 1885. In 1985. I was there. I was special, for a trip, I went for two weeks. From New York was the trip; a special group, we were a group and we were taken to --. A special group for vacation we came to -- fora trip. We were taken to the kibbutz and they show us the kibbutz. It was real communism.

When we came to one house where there were no -- cannot open the house, keep it closed. We thought why closed, we never closed our houses, no, never. Always open, open for all people. They were good and they were wonderful, good food and food. you will read, I will give you.

45

Q: Okay.

A: This you must read. You will know.

Q: Good, okay.

A: It would be good for the -- for your museum.

Q: Okay, let me ask you. You said that Michael was born -- when was he born?

A: 1906. This I know, in the documents, how it is written, I tell you.

Q: Do you have the documents of your relatives?

A: The documents what they were born, no. But from whom I have documents --.

Q: But you've seen them before?

A: The photos I have and the documents, no. From only my eldest sister, I have her diploma. She became a doctor because when she was in the camp, she asked me to bring it. Then I had it, such a story I will not tell about this because the war started, I could not bring her.

Q: Do you remember Michael's birthday?

A: Yes, the day of his birthday, wait, when was he born --? Yes, I know that in June they were born three people. Birthday was in June. This -- Benjamin, the name of my nephew, the historian, he was born in June 1. Now I remember, my sister Aida, she was born in June 13. Yes, it is so, Iremember. I can know now too more real because her daughter is living in Israel and she knows good. Then she left Russia not long, one year some months. Then the third one is born, is my Michael. He was born June 15. So in June, three birthday parties, I remember such. Such must be. Who stayed 20 years -- he had no children. He was married, yes, no children but who knows about him more? All lives. from all of them, I am alone. From all the family, all they died. He was killed in the war.

What yet about? The last I was born.

Q: Yeah, you were born in 1908, or 1909, yeah.

A: 1908. Yes.

Q: Can you tell me a little bit about where you lived, like your house. Was it a farm that you lived on? Or did you live in the city?

A: Where I lived?

46

Q: Yes, when you were growing up.

A: About mom. About mom, I want to tell you. I know, see better for you. I will finish, not about me. I want to tell you about what I wrote my nephew.

Q: Okay.

A: This is good for you because you know the biography of my mom. It is his babushka, his grandmom. His mom is her daughter.

Q: Yes, her first daughter.

A: Her first daughter of her first husband. You must know about her because she gave the life to my nephew, to Benjamin. This is his biography. I will tell you later. Just now, with this I will finish -----. When -- I must say in the same time about father about him, about the children, that children, this children because --.

Q: You can talk about them all at the same time, yes.

A: Yes, yes. Such I will talk maybe again. I will repeat what I told you but now is connect with my mom and with the historian, with Benjamin. Why he came to me, that's why I must tell you. When my father married my mom and they begin a life, to this time, my father, he was a worker, a simple worker at the fabric.

Q: While we're talking about this, when your mother married your father, where did they live? In what city?

A: In Korpus, where I was born. All we were born in Korpus.

Q: And you stayed there?

A: All we -- because my father was living, yes, in Korpus from 13, 14 years old.

Because he became a worker in that time, why, because his father was killed by a bandit when he was 14 years old, 13, 14 years old. I told you maybe.

Q: Yes.

A: He came to Korpus, he left his family in the farm. In that farm where they were living. It called -- it is --. You will write about father, the first chapter. There would be -- you will know all about this. So I will not repeat. You know, maybe, or you will know when I will give you. But now I must only tell that he left his -- open the window because maybe we have not enough -- now in such a way.

Q: This way?

47

A: No, we have one hour yet. I will try to do quick. But my father in that time, he was very good. He did not study much, studied very little but he studied himself.

Himself, he was reading much, he knew much. He knew much, very good history, geography, he knew. And then came mathematic, he became good. He did as machines.

Q: He worked on machines?

A: Yes. He was machines.

Q: Do you remember what kind of machines they were?

A: First machine was -- he was -- what was he doing? During the First War, he was baking --. When he had the children, the elder children began to work too when they become maybe. I don't know what, 13, 14, 15 years. They were also workers. But they studied at home. Some of them maybe they were -- they studied at school but not much school. He became es-------- when the war started, the children went away when the war started. What was he doing? He was working at the fabric. Then he began to -- yes, picanya, picanya, baking bread, I told you.

Q: Yes, you told me about that.

A: What is it? A bakery. He had a bakery, yes. This things he had to do. He was, yes, when he married the first time, the first of his wife, he began to build a house, himself. Some workers help him, one, two help him but he did it himself. The first, but it was no good because it was balota, balota was close to this. You know what is balota? It's a pond, water was close to this. It was a bad -- but in that house I was born. I was born. It was a bad house. There was bad because it was very wet around this. It was seerets, you know seerets?

Q: Swamp?

A: It comes -- seerets, no. It comes from water when it is close to the house. Water, it is inside of the house. It is all wet where --.

Q: Humid or humidity?

A: Humidity, maybe yes. It is wet things all. We could not be strong as I am now.

It was a bad thing -- to live so many children, the first. The first children went away already. They went away before the First World War. He had not yet our -- all us, the last children. He had only the first. The first children were five. They, little by little, they began, this you will know from this story, from the beginning.

I must say now because it connects with my mom. They left Russia before the First World War began.

48

Q: His first children, yes?

A: Yes, his first children, they decided that it is bad. It is very bad. But he built another house, father. There he did large, what is it? It is called peechey, peechey where he could bake the bread.

Q: An oven?

A: Oven, yes. Great ovens, large, very large. In this, it was a -- this I remember because later we changed this bad house for the other house. And the other house wass so much better for us, for the children. We became, when we were born, the last children, then he did it after. After that children went to America, he did it for us. There was a bakery and as it was a bakery, we had it for us. The main thing so we were not hungry, we had bread.

Q: Was the bakery in the town?

A: In the town? -- in the same house.

Q: It was in the same house. And you were in the middle of town? In Korpus, your house was/

A: Yes, yes, in Korpus. But it was close to that. He built such. The first building, the first house and close to this, he did the other. In the other, he did a half house for us, for the children, for the family and the other half for the bakery. This half, it cut the --oven cut half. For our living and this is for this. For this he had to have what? yes what machine for the bakery? Bakery half only? Yes, what in a bakery must be, all he have it. He did it himself and he did it in the other house.

It became more wet and much better and more new. He did it, you see what, with a provot, a pipe. There was no in other houses but he did the first with a provot.

Q: Oh, it had plumbing? I see.

A: Plumbing, yes. He needs this, water he needs for the wet. He did kalojets, you know what means kalojets?

Q: A well?

49

A: Well, from where we can take water. It is in the places out of the great cities

where peasants are living. It is for the peasants, called j , you know J ?

Q: J , in the country?

A: InJ , yes they had such. Father did it such closed and this. Then the third building from us was -- there lived a family, more rich than he was. They had also a bakery and they had the good things and they had also a well, yes. But they were rich because of this small, was a bad -- was the best from his houses. There were, there were -- I will tell you how many. I remember, I know because we live there, the last time. There was one, two, three, four, five, already. Five rooms and there was also a place for a bakery. That -- in that building lived a family, another family. They were with our building, in the same yard. We had the same yard for all three buildings. Then that family had to go, this I do not know really where. They had to go anywhere, to move. Father bought from them, this house.

So he had now three houses and his own yard in what he was great interested.

The well and all the things. He took us, we're grown up already to that third building. We lived there but --.

Q: Do you remember when he got that third building, what the year was?

A: In the third building, I live. But I was living in the third building and brother yet, because -- brother, the last, my brother Michael, he was studying at school. But then father did not want --. Yes, to this time, when he bought the third building, all my elderer were in Petrograd. Because it was after the revolution.

Q: He got the third house after the revolution?

A: Yes, after the revolution. The bakery, he had to the First World War, 1914. It was still --1914 till 1917, the revolution start.

Q: Can you tell me a little bit about the revolution? Do you remember?

A: Yes, yes. You see what. What you want to know, you must know. Little by little, you will know. I will tell. If 1 repeat, you stop here, not to write more, to repeating, why. If you have something already, so you can stop and I will tell you. What is I want to tell you. It is, you must know this. Because in this way, in this time, start the revolution, you see. The elderer is the, the elderer son -- was -- I wrote my nephew just about this, about what. About thjs I wrote in the beginning, he read. In the first chapter. When I wrote his biography, I wrote only about his babushka, grandmom, about his mom, and about him. This what I tell you, I told you maybe what I am writing, it was written in my first chapter. Now you know, all of this. What I want to tell. Just when the revolution start, he began to do for the revolution other things, not only bread and oats. Kasha, you know from oats, it --.

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Q: It'sa--. (End of Tape ID) 51