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EVA ROZENCWAJIG STOCK July 26, 1989

Q: Would you tell me your name, please, and your date of birth.

A: Eva Stock. January 15, 1919.

Q: Where were you born Eva?

A: Poland. Kozienice.

Q: Where in Poland is Kozienice?

A: It's between Radom and Warsaw.

Q: Okay. Tell me about growing up there. Tell me about your family and the town.

A: Was a beautiful little town. We were five kids, our family. My father and mother, we were a middle class family. Just beautiful house, it was a beautiful house. I was the oldest. I loved all mine sisters and brothers and I loved my parents, was uh my whole life. And we were very close family. Grandfathers and grandmothers and what mine kids didn't have my grandkids have them already. And aunts and uncles. My mother came from a family from eight kids. What I have three aunts still living. Was beautiful, till the war. Was really beautiful.

Q: What did your father do, what was his business?

A: Mine father uh was, I don't know how to say this, just he used to do the tops, was then made everything by hand. And when I was a little girl about ten years old, we already just, we sold leather. We have a store, from leather, what we, wasn't like any factories in this town, just was a lot, uh shoemaking, what went...they sold to Galicia, to another part of Poland. And we used to sell the leather to those shoemakers. In...let's say, Radom used to make the leather. They had those uh making out the leather. We used to buy from them, from Radom, the leather, and sell in our town to the shoemakers. Leather. The top leather and the bottom leather. For the shoes. We were, like I said, middle-class family-- nice home, clean home, beautiful children, everything you can ask--"til Hitler. We knew already in thirty-three what's going on.

Q: How did you know?

A: We would read the paper. We knew already it's going to come, something. Just nobody believed, nobody believed. Like I said, we were raised if you're doing something wrong, you're going to get punished. Just if, if you're not going to do anything wrong, why should they kill us, why should they punish us? Just was hard. We didn't realize. We knew about Kristallnight, just not with all the details. And was, even when they warned that occupied Poland in eight days so natural.

Q: Could you talk a little louder? I can't hear you.

A: They occupied Poland in eight days till Warsaw. Just we still believe they're going to kill us, just was terrible. The first night they came in and they separated us already.

Q: What happened? Tell us. . .

A: They took the, when they started, this was first day, before they took a city, they bombarded.

As we went out, the whole family, we just took just a little bit of food and we went out to the woods. Was uh very beautiful eh woods, uh, woods around Kozienice. And we went out, we were there maybe twenty-four hours there, the hours and they bombarded and bombarded.

And later we heard, "Get out, get out." And they took us to a church. And we, we, we saw right away the treatment is not good. Just we still didn't believe. And they, in the morning they let out the woman and kids. And the men, they took already to uh, uh concentration, to Radom. The. . . all men from. . .

Q: They took all men to Radom?

A: Yeah. Were a few, what they were hidden out and they didn't get out from the church. We were beaten already, specially the men. The women they were uh treated a little bit better.

And uh started like this. Let me, let me tell you a story about my grandfather. What I said, the youngest uncle, they took him to Radom. And I went with mine grandfather to the German committee, whatever it was. It wasn't Gestapo. Gestapo was, to get uh from, to bring mine uncle back home. He had to make a living for the family. My grandfather was then in his late 60's, was old. It's like people standing in the line to wait to get in to this German office, to get uh, uh, know how you say this, to get, a paper, to get mine uncle out. Two Germans came up to mine grandfather, cut off his beard. He lived another three or four days.

He went home, went to bed, and he died. This was good already. He died a natural death. He was buried, natural death. This was just like in September in "45. Uh, November was already the ghetto.

Q: This is November of "41, about?

A: "39.

Q: "39, alright. Sorry. Okay.

A: "39. He died in "39, yeah. In "39, was start the ghetto. We were to a main street, Ulica Lubelska (ph?), as they closed that up the street, we couldn't get out through the front door any more. We had to go through the back door. And it was like months like this.

Q: What was it like inside the ghetto? What did you do?

A: Was already very, we were already very scared. Very, like stopped living. In one time we were a middle-class family. We were fairly . . ., and we stopped living. We had to fight for the every day, for to get the food on the table. We exchanged uh, let's say we had the situation might be a little better than other people, were hungry right away. Just we exchanged a little leather for the goods, the, the Poles what they came let's say with food, with eggs, with uh flour or some what they bought. Leather was to them then like gold. They needed those boots and they needed this. I don't know who made for them this, I don't know.

Just a piece of leather then was like gold. As we got food, and even enough, it's a fact my grandmother came to live with us, mine aunt and uncle came to live with us, because let's say in beginning of "40, this, this wasn't in terribly nice of them, but the war and everything so quick, and right away the ghetto and right away the - to fight every day - afraid to go out.

They're shooting people when after eight o'clock let's say, at night we couldn't get, go out anymore. We couldn't, if, if the exchange would be if they catch us would be shooting.

Killing too. Started to be uh a struggle, every day struggle, day by day. In the, you were considered to take the closest people in. It might be oh, we going, we going, this can't take forever. It's going to end. It's going to end in six months. It's going to end in, in, after the six months, another six months my father used to say. And like I say, we took in mine aunt and uncle because uh we had the place and they started already to transfer people to smaller places, to Arentadt (ph ?), to Kozienice. And if we wouldn't take in our family, we had to take in people what coming in. And was already a camp about four miles from, four miles from Kozienice, what it was digging, I don't know what they were digging. Just every day, in the morning, the Gestapo or the SS came and took all the men and took them there to dig like a river. I don't know, was about four volka (ph), about four miles from Kozienice. And in "40...1940, by the end of 1940, yeah, they liquidate. They took all those people. Then went my grandmother, mine uncle and aunt Fitzpack (ph), seven children--because one cousin, the oldest who like I was the oldest, I took with me to this place to work, to this place where we were digging those places. By...by luck, because I knew the engineer. We went together to school, and I bribed him, natural, with...I bribed him to take. Because they took just men and younger people, just. I wouldn't separate from my parents for nothing. I was, I would go with them to Treblinka. Just I bribed him. And I begged him and he took in my parents and my younger sister. She was a kid. And my younger brother. And I, and I begged mine uncle to just... He didn't want to go; just this cousin. He lives, he's in Bayonne (ph?). He went with us to this place. And there was work, digging. I don't know what they were digging. And one...mine younger brother was working for the Gestapo, and he was still not with them. He was uh cleaning their...oh oh...uh cleaning their boots, things like that. And I was concerned about him. And this day--was one day in 1940, must have been in October, was already after the Jewish holidays--they came with trucks, and liquidate a half of this camp. They took away then mine aunt and mine uncle and other people, half of this one to Wolanow. They took him to work, to Wolanow. And about a month later, I went to Kozienice to... I...l missed something what is important. I saved a kid, three years old; and she is alive and she is in New York, and I can tell you the whole story. Now I'm going to go back here. When I knew they were going to liquidate, my mother was already...my parents and mine sisters, my sister and brothers were already in this camp. And I was waiting what's going to happen. I was like a mother to all mine younger brothers and sisters. Waiting what's going to happen to mine brother. I didn't want to go out not knowing. And I knew...somebody told me from the Gestapo, "Tonight twelve o'clock we going to liquidate Kozienice." He got leather from us too. And a neighbor--the closest neighbor from us, Pola Luxenburg (ph?)--when she saw me, my family arranging to go there, she said, "Eva, how did you do it?" And I could not tell, I could not tell her. As I told to her she gave me a piece of gold and I give this guy, and I give this guy and she went out, her husband and her brother to the same place.

Q: To this camp?

A: Yes. They had a little girl, three years old. They paid off some Poles to take the little girl. We all thought it's going to be six months, a year. I don't know how much they gave those Poles.

Just they gave them some money to hide out this little girl, three years old. Before, it was about eight o'clock or nine o'clock, I knew it's going to be the liquidation. And I was ready, the last, by myself to go out there--was about two hours walk, three hours walk. I saw the little girl, the...the...the Polish family, bringing back the little girl to the grandparents. The grandparents were staying there. And I went to this grandfather, and I couldn't tell him tonight is the last night. Just I said, "Please give me...give me uh Ruthele. Please give me Ruthele. With me, I take her to Poland." And he said, "No, let Polack have." And we were fighting maybe a half hour over this little girl. He didn't want to give her to me "til I said, "It's going to be too late. Polacks not...cannot come for her." And I just took her by my hand and went out. We came there; and my mother, my parents were natural upset already. We came there about eleven o'clock, and the same night they all were taken to Treblinka.

Q: Where, did you see this? Where were you? Physically where were you? You saw them being taken?

A: No. No.

Q: Where were you hiding?

A: We were there, not hiding, in this place to work.

Q: OK.

A: Wasn't a hide out place. Was this place. This girl saw me for the first time this year. We have every year, we have... She's now in her fifties. She was...she held a speech how I saved her life then. OK. Thanks God for that life. She's married. She has two children. Her husband is a musician. And all the time, her mother's alive to help her. They didn't...her husband didn't come back. Just she remarried. And whenever her second husband saw my daughter at a party or someplace, they went to her and told her, "Thanks. Thanks to your mother, we have our Ruthele." Alright. And there we were about, two about three, four months as to this camp. Was a camp, like I said before. They took a half, and later--I was not there and mine parents were hiding. Not they were hiding. They went to some Poles, uh to buy some food.

In came two trucks and took away the rest of the camp. It was my sister taken away and a younger brother--one of the youngest brothers. To Skarzysko, if you heard about this camp.

Skarzysko. Was still in Poland, those camps. Both ammunition factories. And we were left a few people. I was then in Kozienice to visit my brother. It was maybe ten, twelve people in Kozienice. I, when I heard they liquidated the camp there, I run. I was going there to look for somebody, to find something. And I found my mother and father. Just the kids were taken away. To make this, we were in Kozienice about another maybe six or eight days. Was the police, the Jewish police, was there still, what they didn't put them on the trains to Treblinka.

Was a few people what they working for the Gestapo needed, whatever, for them--like my brother...like my brother, plus another few people. Maybe we won't tell the people. And my father...father, my mother and father, we were very upset, natural, and very concerned. But they...it's just we didn't have a choice. One morning, they told us to get out. They wanted to show us something. And my brother, my sister was already in Skarzysko. The youngest brother--eleven years old, Schepsele (ph?)--as I was afraid they're going to kill him if they see him, as I told him to go away from the line. And later, when they let us back in, I'm going to take him back. I thought then I can do everything for them. I was ready to do everything for...for my sister or brother to live, even get shot. It didn't bother me. And he went to this Polish family, begged them to stay there for two hours. He didn't know we're not...they're not going to let us in back. And they took him right away to the Gestapo. And he got shot. As me, my mother and father and the younger brother, mine younger brother, one brother, they took us to Szydlowiec." Was a finishing place already from the Jews, or they took us to work or they finished us. Szydlow was terrible. People was sitting, young girls were already then crazy. They was sitting. They didn't know what they talking. They took off their clothes, and Szydlowiec was already a finishing place. And looks like I had a lot of guts then. And I saw my mother and father and me and my brother, and I wanted to get out from there. I...I saw its...we can't exist. Can't uh talk, from Pionki. And they were looking still for young people to go to work. And I knew those people, what they came with the Gestapo--the Jewish people, what they were work. And again, they made shoes for them, and...and clothes. They came with them.

Q: What do you mean, "they came with them"?

A: To Szydlowiec. They knew to take out still the young people. They took them to help, at the place, the Auschwitz had Jewish people...uh the kapos were all Jewish too.

Q: Right.

A: Szydlowiec, came the kapos, what I knew them. And I said to him, "Please take us out." He said, "Yes, you and your brother. But not your father and mother." And I said, "I'm not

J May be the same as Szydlow, a labor camp for Jews located in the Radom district. going." And mine brother was two years younger than I am. And he said, "Eva, are you sure of this?" "You go. I'm not going." And we stayed. And got to me something like I don't know. I wrote a letter to this guy what I gave him, in Kozienice, what I... He took my family to this place to...to the camp there, in Kozienice, what I give him a piece of gold. I wrote a letter to him. We left a lot of goods with him, too. With other people, too. And begged him.

He knew already my youngest brother is killed. And begged him to save still, if he can, to save our lives. And send...I couldn't send the letter by mail. I got from the street a Pole, and paid him fifty zlotys. Yes. This...so help me God, this is every word like I'm saying. I wrote a few words, "Please..." In Polish. "...save us, still if you can." And told him the story to take us out from Szydlowiec, send him the letter with a messenger. I gave the messenger fifty zlotys. And he got the letter, the Pole could throw away, take the fifty zlotys and go away.

He got to him, he got the letter. One day comes another truck with this guy, Stefnjak (ph?), and a German officer. "Where is the family Rozencwajig?" And they came to us, and they told us...they called us the family Rozencwajig. And I saw this. You can't imagine my heart as I went--my brother, my mother and father. And came a few people from Kozienice: "Please, Eva. Take us with you." And I mean, I couldn't. Was one, they was so and so--the guy I took. Another guy what wasn't so nice to us, he said to me, "Eva, forget." Because he went and...and... How you say? To them with taxes, and said we making big business. Then, in Pole, took him. Took everybody, and we went to Pionki. In Pionki, was already ammunition factory. And we were there about two years in Pionki. We went out every, every day to work. My mother was working in the kitchen. Me and mine father and mine brother, we went out to the ammunition factory to work every day. And I managed to bring my sister, for she is in Weiland (ph?) now, from Skarzysko to Pionki. I tell you, was a woman from our town, and she was on Gentile's papers--she was like a Polish woman going around. She...she got hair blond. And she...and she used to come into the...near the lager. We went out sometimes to laundry, and I saw her once. And I said to her in Polish, "What are you doing here?" I didn't say she this, just not to see her. And I told her, I made a sign. "We're going down there. And uh the SS left us "til we do...did all the laundry." And later, they came to pick us up. And she came in, and she told me her story. She's on un pa...on uh uh Gentile papers, and she doesn't have money. I said, "Listen, if you can bring my sister from Skarzysko, I pay you." She had a daughter there, too. "I pay you for her, and for your daughter. To bring them near uh here. You're going to be close to them." And I gave her some money. She went to Skarzysko; and she looked around and she looked around, and she got a note to them. She's going to wait for them when they going to go... When they walking to work, they work in groups--hundreds. To turn around, we took our lives in our hands, just we did all the things. Uh I wanted to have my little sister with us. And took but two, three months, maybe. And one day, I'm getting a little note. She had the kids outside the uh...the...uh, outside the factory, uh, the lager...the concentration camp in Pionki. And I went to the... Was a Jews from mine town. He was the Lageraltester. How I shall tell? The top uh on...on the lager. He could go out with me. I wouldn't be endangered. Just he wasn't around and I didn't wait. I went myself. My father was saying, like this, "Please, don't go." And I didn't listen to anybody. I went out. I said to the guard, "I'm going to the laundry rooms." And I saw my little sister, and I saw the other girl. She's alive, too. And I took them with me to the laundry; and I took them back to the...myself, so help me God. You know what I did in Pionki. My father wasn't allowed to come into our barrack. Was just for woman. And he came in once; and uh from Ukraine--you know what I mean--they were even worse. He took the...the shotgun to shoot him. And I grabbed his shotgun and didn't let shoot my father. I did everything what's possible. Like I say, my life wasn't worth anything with that. And was a hard life in Pionki. Just we were together still, four of us. And this gave us some kind of uh ... you know--"We're going to make it. We're going to do it." Was hard. Just...I don't know.

The food and the clothes wasn't so much to me like seeing mine...we're still together. We're still a family. I...by then I knew already my youngest brother got killed. And the other brother what got, when my sister came, got sent away from; because he was too young, got sent...sent away from the Munitionsfabrik [Ger: munition factory]. From, like I say, to Szydlowiec while we were on the...they came for us. I didn't know then. Because then was the concentration in Szydlowiec, to kill these people, to kill out already. To take them to the Treblinka or to kill.

Q: The deportation center for Treblinka?

A: Yes. Yes. And was a struggle. Was hard. Was all kind... let's say, when a few people were put in the ground, uh corpses, and then they hanged them--three or four people. Just where we were we didn't have so much clothes anymore. As in the morning they went out, they were cold, as they pulled around a blanket. As they...and we all have to look. If somebody didn't look up, we couldn't else they got beaten up or killed even. Was every day struggle.

Just we stayed there "til Auschwitz. All four of us. People were good one to each other, one to another. I think we helped one another how much we could under these circumstances. I had a cousin from Warsaw. He came to stay with us because Warsaw was right away terrible. And he ended up in Pionki, too. He didn't have food. He got swollen up. We did the best we could. We tried to give him uh some bread for feeding. I was all my life very skinny.

I don't think so I suffered so much the hunger, like the...no, didn't bother me like seeing kill-- the families separated, killed. This what bothered me the most. And I was half-satisfied looking at my father and mother and my brother, younger brother. And later my sister came, too, was already. And this...and after about a year and a half they started to bombarding Pionki, the Germans.

Q: The Germans were bombing Pionki?

A: Yes." They knew it was an ammunition factory, and they started the bombarding Pionki. And one day they, they told us to be ready. They taking us, they putting us in wagons.

Q: About what year is this?

A: This was by the end of "43.

2 Probably the Allies.

Q: OK.

A: I think so. And was already the worst thing what could happen. We were in closed wagons-- no food, no water. And they give in some water. You didn't see people anymore. Like animals, we attacked the water. No...not nobody got a hold of themselves anymore, "til we arrived in Auschwitz. And this was already the worst thing what started. We got separated right away from my father and brother. They left me and my mother together. Took us to the ovens. To...they said to clean up, to wash up. And we...we had...

Q: Wait a minute. You had said... When we talked on the phone, you had said... you had told me a story about your sister and your mother going to the right, and you to...

A: This was in Auschwitz.

Q: OK. I'm sorry.

A: This was in Auschwitz.

Q: You're in Auschwitz. You have been through the selection, and you're being sent to wash?

A: To wash up. And we were sitting in...in the ovens, what I know now. After what they were show in Shoah, I didn't know this is...then, those are the ovens. Just now, I know. We were sitting the whole day. Somebody was saying they don't have enough gas or something. They let us out maybe after twelve hours sitting on those benches, exactly like you saw in the movie. After twelve hours, they took us, not to work, just to Birkenau, to a block. And let's say, we were about... was mine aunt. Let me tell you another story what I could, what I did.

Mine aunt came maybe a week later to Auschwitz. And the blocks, in the middle of those blocks, the wagons stopped. And I was staying. And see my aunt coming out maybe a week later. And a girl was near me, and she had a cousin in this...from Wolanow coming out. As I said to her, "How about changing?" We weren't by names. "How about changing... change?

You go with your cousin, and mine aunt's going to come in your place with us." They was just counting us. No name, nothing. And she agreed with me. And mine aunt came out and stayed with us, and she went and stayed in another block with her cousin. You understand what I did? And we were in Birkenau, mine aunt and me and my mother and my sister, and maybe another two woman. We were on a piece of place laying down in the middle of the night. Somebody wants to turn around, we had to push everybody to turn around. Without straw, without anything, we were laying there. And we were in Birkenau for maybe two, three months. It is fact, my mother, I started... stopped talking. I was without hair. It didn't bother me, those things, like I said-- took off our hair, and just the whole atmosphere and everything. I was begging to see an airplane bombarding us. "God, please let...let be finish." We couldn't go uh restroom, just once a day they took us. Everyday was Jewish girls, kapos, she said, "Today you're going to go the ovens." You saw the nicest music, Beethoven, playing; and we didn't know then that a group of people and this was going to the oven. We smelled. We smelled. We could smell the...the burning, the flesh. It was like three, four months like this. And later, we all got out from the blocks and was Mengele and was like, tall big Germans. And they were holding like... I'm not going to know how to explain to you in English. Like uh...you're holding for a horse, those uh...

Q: Whips?

A: The whips, yes. And there were in then one left, one right, one left and one right. Younger people. I was the only one in my twenties. I live...already then I was uh, I was 22 years old.

And so I was the only one to the right, as I turned and went with my mother and sister; and my aunt went after us, too. And we was...they was hundreds of people in two lines. One line back to the ovens. My family--me, my mother, and mine sister and mine aunt. And one line to take out, where I later went. And my mother, like I say, she went out; I wanted to take a picture of my father. They beat me up. She went out--I didn't know then--a diamond ring, a little diamond ring and the little diamond earrings. I don't know how, she put it in her mouth.

And she didn't want it...it was to her, uh must have been the first present from my father or something. Little like uh...little this she got it out. And we were standing. And I, my mind was always quick. I said, "Mom, give me the earrings." And I put it an SS woman's hand the earrings. "Let us...let us go over there, other side." And she didn't answer. Just I felt she...1 took a chance. Took my mother by one hand, my sister by the other--and my aunt was running after us--we went in the other part. It was like uh...no more like, twice like this much to run over. And the other end was about half a mile, maybe. They knew something is going on, just they didn't know really what. They started to shoot in the...in the air. And this way we went out to Auschwitz...from Auschwitz.

Q: You joined the line going out to work?

A: Out to work. And it was a nightmare. Was winter. We were just wooden shoes. No clothes, no underpants, nothing. Just a dress. And we lived through this. I cannot say exact how long we stayed there. Everything ammunition factories; and we worked. Just I'm not sure of this place or another place. I use to go two shifts, because my mother was already then in her middle fifties. She got married late. Then they married usually...she got married was twenty- two. Now she was fifty-two. She got married, she had me when she was thirty, and she couldn't pick up those heavy ammunition. She came home, she was broken up as when they use to call her. I came home from one shift, they called her number and I went and worked another shift. Like I said...

Q: So you worked another shift?

A: Like I said, food or this I didn't think about. As I, it didn't bother me so much. Just to keep them alive. And later they...I don't know what happened, they took us again. Just not...it's not so, it was enough in the cold. And...and...and no food, in that it...it's a fact was this Jewish uh Gestapo says--one time uh when the German came and picked them--they said, "Let...let's see the girls what have big mouths going out. The biggest." As I was hiding behind my mother. I was afraid to, to, to leave them. I didn't want to be, never, to...to do something against. Just Jewish girls. And they were sometimes very...going to tell you a story about a Jewish girl. Too, they were very rude sometimes, too. And they took us from there--I think we were there nine months--into Bergen-Belsen. As again awaiting uh just they didn't take us then in those closed wagons. Uh they took us already in regular wagons. Was...the ride was much better. Much more civilized, anyway. Just beatings; and this...this, it never stopped. And they put us...they took us to Bergen-Belsen. And we got, we arrived in Bergen- Belsen, was already lager...special camps for those people what had international passports.

Was from United States, from England; and we got some food from their kitchen. Was already we got some good soups sometimes. Was already uh again, two, three months; and they took us to a factory to Elsnig." At Bergen-Belsen. From Bergen-Belsen they took us to Elsnig. And there, I don't know, I was plain luck. Because uh was no hair, no clothes. And one engineer asked me if I know how to make...to put a stamp together; not to stamp--just put, let's say, for the ammunition. They had all different names, though all different numbers, yes. And to put this...the letters together. My second language, it's my second language was French. Just I said I know it. My husband's, let's say, was German. We had a choice, I know.

And he put me in a place; was a magazine where they was giving out clothes to the girls. He put me in this place, and a bunch of numbers with the instructions and I did it. He helped me.

He was a good man. He had...showed me once, and I did it. And this way, I had a chance to take in my mother for a purse (ph) not for her to be in the cold on those ramps and everything. And my sister was a little girl. She was then about twelve, thirteen years old; as they took the kids--all the kids was in her age, six kids--and they took them to peel potatoes in the kitchen. Because we were...we were in a camp, yes, the Gestapo had uh over us.

They...they bought us. Just they loaned us, however, to the factory. Was civil people. As the kids weren't paid by the factory but I understood later the kids were peeling potatoes.

Alright, we were already, I had a good job. My mother was in those German people's, then was offices there. They didn't eat food. They give me, and I took, yeah, as I took all the food what we...with me--I didn't need for me--and get...go... used to go out to the ramp where they were transportation, putting us on the wagons with the ammunition or this, and give them everything. It's a fact that woman from Pionki said, "Eva..." She had a gold watch. I don't know how. I said, "I don't need it. I don't want it." She wanted to give me for the food. I don't need it.

Q: How did you get the food? I know this wasn't legal.

3 Subcamp of Buchenwald located in the Sachsen province of Germany. Opened around October

10, 1944, and liberated April 20, 1945. Operations consisted of the WASAG chemical factory.

Women only.

A: Yes. Wasn't legal to give me, either.

Q: How did you do it?

A: Just the place what I was the head of it. They called me by my name. I was treated different, so I was sitting in this place. I didn't have the Gestapo over my head the whole day. They didn't just...they just didn't like I was wearing a scarf on my hair. It started to grow up. I sure didn't like. I still looked good, and she told me to take off my scarf. Just I didn't have her on my shoulders the whole, the Gestapo...was woman Gestapo there. I didn't have them on my shoulders the whole day. And I risk; I was, like you should know already, mine this...

always risked my life. I didn't care so much. Less for...for... I, let's say, took out under mine arms--I was wearing uh smock-- uh for the winter, what you wear gloves, from the people on the ramp. And a Jewish girl from mine town, what I know her, and she knew I'm going to get shot. She went to the engineer--was not to the Gestapo--and told him I'm stealing gloves.

And I went out, and he stopped me. "What you have here?" And this time I didn't have anything. They would take me and kill me right away. And I said to her I knew. And I said, "How could you do this to me? I did it for you. I didn't...I did it for you, and for all those other girls. How could you?" "I wanted to have your job too," she said to me. She's alive.

She's very good off. I'm not going to mention her name.

Q: Let's just...go back one minute to how you were bringing food to the people on the ramp. It was not only that it was illegal, but you could have been killed.

A: Yes. And I did it.

Q: How did you get the food to them without being seen, and without being shot?

A: I don't...I don't know. And I use to go out with... They used to give me in a...in a bucket what...the leftovers. And I took a little bit for me, for my mother, let's say. Took a little bit in a cup for my aunt to give her later. And the rest, I...I gave them the bucket. Got out and gave them the bucket. And not once; and not ten times. Hundreds of times. Yes.

Q: OK. Let's break. Let them change the tape, and then we go on.

End of Tape #1 TAPE #2

Q: Take us...we're back to where you're bringing food to the people on the ramp.

A: Yeah. And they...they were very thankful, really--the most of the people. "Thank you, Eva.

We are alive." Because it was a very plus for them to stay on the ramp below zero, let's say.

Q: What kind of work were they doing on the ramp?

A: Putting down the ammunition, cases with ammunition, in wagons to transfer them. And this was close to the...to the building where I was working about the stamps and going around to every...to different parts, and to deliver the stamps. And I didn't have the Gestapo with me, either. They were treating me a little better; and I have...I didn't have nightshift--just day time. And my mother, too. And was then, in those days, a big plus--just she shouldn't do that.

And just by... was then confused. They were bringing us, didn't know anything. And he asked me if I know how to...uh how to make uh those stamps, together. And I just said yes, that's all. What can I...what I said, "OK, well. What can I..." And we were in this lager. It was off and on. Was already...I was happy. OK. My father was not there, and my brother was not there anymore. Just I hoped.

Q: Did you not know what had happened to them?

A: No. At this point, no. Uh, the woman...German woman who were working there, as uh they begin to like me and my mother. And they said to me, "Eva, du bist nicht kein Jude."--"You not Jewish." They couldn't understand they can like somebody. Somebody can be normal.

Somebody can be a person, being Jewish. Because they told them they brought prostitues to work. That's what she told me later when she took me with her to go someplace, that, "You know, everybody told us..."

Q: A little louder. I can't hear you.

A: "You know, everybody told us you all prostitutes, uh sick people. That's why they brought you here." They couldn't... As one woman--an older woman. She was my mother's age. She used to bring me a piece of cake, even, from home. "It's... you're not Jewish," she said to me.

And I said, "Yes, I am." With this prostitute business, I said to her, "Are you believing everything?" I said to her, " ." And she said, "No, I don't." Just was too good. A few months later, they concentrated us again on the Gestapo, on the place where we lived. And they wanted to take my sister away back to Auschwitz. All those six kids.

Q: Which six kids?

A: Where my sister worked in the uh...in the kitchen. Was a couple pregnant woman, Jewish; and in sum, there was about ten or twelve people what they wanted in the uh camp. Those engineers from the factory, too. And they choose the people what they want to work for them. And...and they choose the people. And the rest--not a lot, maybe twelve or twenty people at the most, I can't remember so exact everything--they wanted to send back to Auschwitz. As I heard this, as I went and said I am pregnant. When I said that, this one Gestapo-- a woman--she said, "It's not true. She's her sister." She knew. "She's her sister." And they began to...with the Jewish, "You dirt! You nothing! You're what is with family!" And I didn't want to go back to... I said to my aunt, "You take care of my mother." They were two sisters. "And I'm going to go with my sister, and take care of her." And I didn't want to go back to the other side. I was insisting I am pregnant; and they took a shovel...and they beat me so up [that] the whole...the line, the other side, was screaming, "Eva, come back! They're going to kill you!" And the...you couldn't walk to me; maybe a month I was black and blue, and everything was hell. And they took me back in the other side. And the people from the factory--that was three engineers--they saw everything. And I think it touched them. And in the morning, I had to go out to work. If not, they would kill me. And I knew I'm going to come back and my sister's not going to be anymore. My little sister. And she took her hands around me like this. And "Eva," in Polish she said, "I'm not going to see you anymore." And I went with my mother to work; and I said to my mother, "Mom, give me your ring." But I made the biggest mistake. And I wasn't allowed to go into an office to an engineer, just as soon I came to work. It's unbelievable. I...I don't know how I did. I went in to one engineer what I saw...I felt he's protecting, too, their office. And I said to him, "Please, I don't want to live." I said to him, in German, "Just let me. Do something to let me go to my sister." And I took the ring out from someplace, I don't know, and I wanted to give it him. And he saw this, and he got angry. "I wanted to help you, Eva," he said. These was his first words. "I wanted to help you. Just I'm not going to do it. If you going to bribe me, if you're thinking I am a person like this, I...I'm not going to help you." At this point, I cannot argue with him. Took the ring, could throw away the ring. I make , and went back and sat down. I had a little table like this with a chair. And put the stamps together, and cried and cried. Took maybe three hours. Came in the whole this from the factory. He was a general something, with this black leather coat. He was tall--about six feet. The Germans, when they saw him, they were like this--shake and all. Comes right to my table, and said this word...to me, in German. How can I say this? "Eva...,"" Nobody was called there by name.,...like I say, "I wanted to help you. And I can help you. Just tell me what's going on." In those words. And I couldn't talk anymore. My throat was...and mine eyes full. "Please, get ahold of you. Tell me." And I told him, and he went out. The Germans were like this. In about...we got to lunch, they were bringing by a buggy--a horse and buggy--the lunch to the factory from the place where we were living. They were cooking there. It's the woman what brought the lunch. "Where's Eva!," she was screaming. Well, before he got out, listen again.

This was me. I said to him, "Herr engineer..." Whatever, in English. "Herr...uh sir," I said to him, "it's five more kids there. They're working. They working more than we work here.

They're little kids that working whole days. Sometimes late at night. They have infections on them. Please, if you can do..." But to one, about one o'clock she comes and, "Where is Eva?

They left all kids." (Pause) In the same lager, Elsnig--I don't know where, what part of Germany it's ...it's, like I say, the...the factory was underground. Yes, we went back and forth, below zero, without shoes, without everything. And we still survived. A lot of us. Was a girl what I knew her, too. When the...when the...this our food got in, she took it out every piece potato. Every piece, this for her family. A Jewish girl. She gave us the water. With me, myself, I...this was still the place where I had the food from the other places. Just I couldn't take it. As I said to her, "Stefa (ph?), how can you do this?" And so she, "You see, I can." And was a girl from a good family, from a good home; and she did this to us. Not so much to myself. Like I say, we were thousand, eleven hundred woman in this concentration camp. It's a fact, one...one went on the electric uh this, because of her. She was stealing a piece of bread. She put uh put uh, you know, from uh the whole night the whole bucket, on her head.

As the woman went to the electric, with her hands to the...because we around with electric bar. Yes. Yes.

Q: She put a bucket [of] urine on her head?

A: Yeah. Yeah.

Q: And she went to touch the wires? Okay.

A: Yeah. And they left again my sister, what I was very happy. And those six...and those five other kids, six kids. And we were, we were there "til "45. In April "45, we knew already. I was working this place. It's this same engineer what asked me to, if | know German, if I know how to put those stamps together. He special turned off the radio, for me to listen about news, the Russian uh... Then...

Q: You were getting the news from Russia through the radio?

A: Yeah, he special did it. I didn't...I didn't know then just like, it's all out. I was listening, and I was surprised. I didn't know anything. We didn't have anything "til then. And started again to bombard. They bombarded already, the Russians, and the Americans. And now this was the late "45. And was already rumors they going to take us, they're going to take us to a bunker and throw ammunition on us. Just the people from the factory, they didn't allow it. They were fighting with the Gestapo. They said they're going to give the wagons to transfer us to a point, to was . This was thirty kilometers or thirty miles from Berlin. It was again a concentration, what they transferred already to the west; or they killed, or they...you couldn't survive anyway. It was like the factory. They put us again in wagons--normal wagons for people, passengers. And this same engineer came up and said, "You have a better future than me now." That's what he said. And they were holding us days and days, and transferring us from place to place without food. One time, they gave us food. One time, they didn't give us food. And staying on those railroads, yeah. And we saw already Polish people. They're trying to make up a little bit, as they were talking to us.

Q: The Polish people?

A: Yeah, they gave us cigarettes. I didn't need them. I didn't smoke then. Just whoever. They gave us some water. And this was miles--about thirty miles, like I said, or forty miles from Berlin. And they were holding us maybe ten days. And they let us out in the wood. And the twentieth of April was Hitler's birthday; and who they bombarded ? Our barracks--from the eleven hundred woman or a thousand, fifty got out alive, but two hundred and fifty.

Q: From the Allied bombardment?

A: Yes. And me, and my sister, my mother, my aunt, and another two people in a wagon--was for sure about sixty people in one wagon. And we waited one for the other; and we waited.

So I didn't want to go without mine aunt and without my little sister. And we were almost in the last wagon. And we four, six people got out from this wagon; and we were all...my aunt had here, got wounded. And we three got out completely good. Mother, my mother... Just again, we couldn't...she... uh... we were in in this closed wagons. We couldn't take out mother through the little window. And near the...near the wagon was a hole from those uh bombs, maybe twenty foot deep. And we didn't have a way...I don't know. I don't know how, and I don't know this. My little sister got out, and I was scared and I went after her; and mine aunt--with her, she had shrapnel here--threw out my mother. And later we took her out and got in the woods. We went to the woods. And was Germans in the woods too. She was blood, with blood all this. And I went to a German in the woods; and like I say, I...I didn't to... Was civil, not uh...not uh...not, not from the Army or the SS or with the dogs. Just people, German people. They were hiding, too, from the bombs. And I went up to a family, my...if they had water. No, they have schnapps, they have uh vodka, let's say, or uh

Q: Whiskey?

A: ... whiskey. So I took a little vodka and cleaned around her this. And they... And we stayed there overnight, let's say; overnight, about twenty-four hours in the woods. And later, they have already the Gestapo with the dogs after us. As I said to mine aunt, "Tante, you don't have a choice. You have to go out, because you cannot go around like this."

Q: A little louder- can't hear you.

A: You not...don't have a choice. You can't go around with this. You have to have a hospital.

You want me to go with you, I'm going to go with you. And let Mom and Phyllis stay." We were eight woman together. They took all the...the wounded, they took to hospital. Which is true then. Just we didn't go out. We were in those woods. And I had a little girl with me. The eighth woman what we were in the woods, I had a little girl with me what she was to be sent back to Auschwitz with my sister. And her mother come up...came up to me and said, "Eva, please go. They're going to kill you. I'm going to take care of your little sister." And I took this little girl. Her mother uh got killed in this... As I took her with me everywhere from then.

We were staying in the woods; after about six, two, the first two, three days--no food, no water. It was raining a little. This helped. Just...just woods. And I said, one night, "Mamma, I have to go out and look for something. I have to...what we going to die anyway." It's was...it was again luck the dogs didn't pick us up. We saw the dogs. We heard them. "Come out!

Come, get out! Get out!" Just was again the dogs didn't pick us up. And I said to myself, "No more. I'm not going into a wagon. They have to kill me here." And when my little sister got hungry after three, four days, they said to me, "Because of you, we're going to die, all of us." Because I didn't want to go back to the wagons. I looked at her. And I said, this night, I said, "Mamma, I have to go out to look for something." And I went. I didn't know where I'm going. Woods. Just I went out. And who am I see? This same Polish guy what was working on the train. He was uh... What you call it? He was working, and he recognized me. And I thought to myself, "Oh, he's going..." And I told him, "Listen, if you want to do something for us, you have to bring us something to eat, some clothes. If not, I'm not going back to...to the Germans. And we're going to die. It's up to you." And he said to me, he made a date for the next day to meet him at the same place when it's going to get dark. And I didn't want to tell my mother, because she's not going to let me go. I was sure he was...he's going to have the Gestapo with him. Just, no. He didn't have the Gestapo with him. He had two gallons of soup. He has two heavy jackets. One I give my mother. Was an older woman, too, in this group. He has a little bit of sugar, and he has a little bit of bread. And I came back with those things. You can't imagine what...how they react. And he told me to meet again, just my mother didn't let me go any more. As I said to myself, was already this...if...if in German uh again uh advertising big...big like this, so written, "If you see a Jew, bring...bring him down there." And I was got out from this, from the woods, and walked and walked and saw those was ...uh this so written down. Early in the morning--was maybe five o'clock in the morning- -was this little girl, my sister, my mother, another four people. And I saw Italian, a Italian guy. They were in camps there, too. They had different rights; just in this place was a camp for Italian men. And he saw me, and he knew what's going on. He calls me. He saw I'm lost.

He calls me and takes me in, and he's telling me they have already maybe twenty girls from those...from those wagons. And they're hiding them. Just was a Russian girl; but she was...was a Russian camp, too, there. And she was taking all this news to the... They were afraid of her, of the Russian girl. To stay there. I said, "No, I have to tell my mother, my sister, another...there's seven more people ." He said, "I'm going to go look for them." And they were scared, and they didn't want to show; and he was looking around. I explained to him what...how much could I explain. Was woods, what we were, about eight days there.

To go straight and deep in the woods there. He came back. No. I didn't listen. The Russian girl, not... was running right back to them. And I was then angry with my mother. They saw him. I said, "Why didn't you? What you want me to get killed?" All to them. "But why didn't you get out? He was looking for you." They were scared. And I took them all; I didn't wait til the next day, even. Went to this...to the Italian people. Was...

Q: Were they prisoners, the Italians? I'm not sure.

A: Prisoners, yes. Like us. They just had different rights. And they were...their prison was near the place what we got bombarded. Was not just Italian. Was a Russian camp there, too. And they, natural, they gave us two mattresses. We were laying down like this, all four. And one was already good. They give us water. Food, we can't...we couldn't take anymore. It was...we were lucky then we couldn't get ...we didn't want...we didn't eat anything, because people died. A lot of our people died this way. They got right to the food. They didn't have in their stomachs for days and weeks, and they got typhus and they got all kinds of things. And they died later. And we slept through, anyway; we slept through about thirty-six hours. Without food, just water. And a a piece, a place to lay down. And they, at the door in the room where we were, mattresses...mattresses they put uh a closet. Was in Europe, was uh like a china closet--just was regular closet, the whole closet, to put on the door. And they hide it. We were hidden there. And they tried...some people ate; just I couldn't eat anything. After thirty- six hours, we started to hear the Russians are coming in. No, no. Wasn't like this. Before we got to the uh...before I got out, we were in a laundry room. From the woods, one night, we heard cross-fires. Was terrible. We thought this is the last of us. As we walked out of this uh...from the woods, and we got into this laundry room and we were laying down on the floor, you know, there were who were this...was cross-fire already the Germans-- whether the Russians, whatever, the American people. And after this, I couldn't take anymore. We went to the woods, and I went to the Italian the uh camp.

Q: Did the laundry room business happen before the Italian camp?

A: Yeah.

Q: How did you get to the laundry room? You were in the woods, you...

A: We didn't know. We just went, and we saw a building.

Q: Okay.

A: And we saw a building and we went in to hide from the cross- fire. That's all.

Q: I see. Okay. An empty building. And when it was over, you went back to the woods?

A: Yes.

Q: Then we pick up with the story with the Italians?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: And the Italians opened...opened the door, and they told us the Russians arrive. And, natural, when the Russian arrived, was this the girl what was uh working with the Germans, took ten minutes for them. They hung her on a tree. She was pulled up on a tree. The Russians didn't play things with her. And was still fire. Just we were already starting to eat, the Russians gave us already food. And this started already, this...this is by almost we started to go home.

Q: What had happened to your aunt in the meantime?

A: We didn't know then.

Q: Okay.

A: We didn't know then. Just that she's alive, and they took her to a hospital and they treated her. And was a Italian doctor cooked for her special meals, and she got uh... Yeah. We didn't know then. We started to go home. Again, we had to walk. Who knew by train. No trains, no transportation. Nothing. As I managed to put my mother on a horse and wagon, and we walked. We walked by day and night. And my sister was already then maybe fourteen, fifteen. She got a bicycle. She got a hold of a bicycle, and started to drive on the bicycle. And they stopped us. Because then, a part of Germany they took out maybe 60,000 Germans uh soldiers. Luckenwalde (ph). This was woods. They were hiding in those woods, and the Russians attacked them. The Russians started attacking those Germans then as they stopped us.

Q: The Russians stopped you?

A: Us, yeah. They didn't let us go to the fire, to the place where the shooting was going on. And we had experience...a bad experience with the Russian, too.

Q: What happened?

A: One morning, let's say, in our group was a woman--a dentist, and she then was Poland. Was Russian when she went to school, was just the Russian language; and she knew Russian good. Let's say, I went...my sister went through with the bicycle what I'm telling you. And I couldn't...I couldn't sleep. Again, I lost my sister already. The Russians are there, and I lost my sister again. So as soon it's got light, I went out to...to look for her. Maybe I can find her.

And a Russian... and I look. I had behind my back a Russian and he wanted to rape me. And I tried to tell him we...we went through so much. "Look. And I survived. And it's uh..." And I even tried to get rid of him. "Come back at night, and I'm going to be here." And when I was talking and arguing with him, came out this woman and my mother; and she started to talk to him. I talked with him Polish. She started with him Russian. And I...and I saw it's not going to help. He has the gun pointed on her, as I run away to the Italian, to the same this, and they covered me with a blanket. And they started to play around, and they took a knife like this.

"If he comes in here," one said, "I'm going to kill him." Really, the Italian are good people.

And, we...we are...were walking a lot, and didn't know about anybody--not about my sister and nothing about mine aunt. "Til we came to Poland. And it's just I had this little girl, Alusha, with me. And we came in closer to Poland, I think. When we passed the Polish border was already wagons. Not for passenger; just open so, open. We could take a train already. And we coming up the train--me, my mother and this little girl, and another woman what they walked with us. And the little...it was said in Polish for the people going to camps, too, was sitting so fat Polish woman. And Alusha, my little...the little girl what I took care of her, touched her. She went though, we were tired, hungry, didn't slept a night. And she touched her, and she saying, "The Jews again here already!" Right away. "The Jews are here, alright!" I thought I'm ready to kill this woman, so help me God. And I started with her in Polish, "You..." Like they used to call us, "dirty Jew," "Te parshiva (ph)!"--"You dirty Pole!

It's...1 wish they would burn you like they burned all of us. The good people went, and you're still alive." And we...and I was exchanging with her words. And was Polish uh officers, uh Polish soldiers and officers, on the same trails as the wagons. They were going the opposite direction to Berlin. And a Polish officer with a very high rank said to me, "You're so strong with your mouth! Why did you go by the Germans like sheeps? They killed you!" And this was already too much. And I said to him in Polish, "Would be better, ..." I gave him the whole title. "... Herr General...uh mister this, uh you remember how the Polish Army looked in'39. You remember." I said to him. With this tone, I went one with shoe and one without a shoe. "You going now to Berlin. Who...who made possible for you to go there? The Russians? The Americans?" That's what I told. And my mother was scared he's going to do to me something. She was always, "Eva, stop it. Stop!" And I said, "No, I'm going to tell him how I see." It stopped. "No, get ahold of yourself uh woman." Already to her, too. We arrived...we maybe...was everything so long drive to Kielce would be our place, to go in three hours when it took us maybe eighteen hours. They told us already not to go out. Was a pogrom. They killed yesterday Jews, pogrom.*

Q: Where?

A: In Kielce.

Q: Kielce. Okay.

A: Kielce. As we was scared to go out even. The girl what I had, her parents were from Kielce.

And we came to...we went to Poland, to Kozienice. Is again, was the group AK(r) that killed Jews--not AK officers. They killing Jews again. We were afraid to, to sleep by night. We were all what be coming. We were waiting. Maybe my father. We didn't know. When we came, my sister was already there. She got through. And mine aunt was there, and these other survivors from Italy. And we were...we were in for the five uh...Berlin capitulate...for the May 3rd or 6th is Berlin capitulate already.deg There, whole bombardment was the twentieth of April "45. "43, in this way. And a lot of people what they were closing Poland.

The Russians took Poland before. As they were already in January free, as my cousin was there already. And my sister came to them. We all were in ein, in one house living, because we were scared to go out again. And my father and brother, my younger brother and my father weren't that lucky. They got killed the 28th of April, "45. My brother uh got...his feet

* The Kielce pogrom occurred in July 1945.

> Armia Krajowa.

deg May 9, 1945. was hurt, and he couldn't walk anymore as a German shoot him. And when my father saw that, he didn't want to live anymore. He didn't want to walk away. Was people from my town what they tell me. They backed him and kin...kin. So he didn't want to walk up a hill; so they shot him, too. And this was the 28th of April, "45.

Q: They were walking with the Germans from which camp?

A: From Mauthausen. Mauthausen. Other people, what...what I heard later, they some picked up people. They put them to a point, other places. Just they were...we all survived just by a little bit of luck. Nobody...nobody survived with uh...and they got both killed. And we tried, til I find out, nobody, and we tired to be in_6d_. In Kozienice, we couldn't stay anymore because they killed us. Three, six people what they were together with me in Pionki, they got killed. They plain cut them up with knives, the Polish people. And as went to Lodz, we could sit in...in the... It was already a Jewish organization there, and we could put our names on the list to find family. And we stayed in Lodz for awhile, "til mine uncle came home. Mine aunt was married then. She married in "39. And he came home, then must have been in September. Yeah, the same date what I got married to my husband. He came home in September "45 from the camps. And they met with mine aunt, just my...nobody, a few people let's say. We stayed in _6d_ too all the...we stayed maybe eight, uh twelve people. Sisters and whatever we were alive, in one...in one building, in one big uh... Because there the rooms were big and this, we...we just to put to the our heads down and we out awaiting what is awaiting. And sure my father is going to come home, my brother going to come home, and mine kids are going to come home. Just we saw we cannot make it. We couldn't make uh a life for us in Poland. Was impossible, was right after the war. And when I got married, and we went back to Germany.

Q: You got married. How had you met you husband?

A: I...when I was in Lod_, I heard my best girlfriend survived. And she's in a town. She's ina town near Cz_stochowa. I went there to, to...to look her up; and she moved and I stayed with her for a while. And got sick there. I had temperature maybe for two weeks. They didn't let me go home. She was with her husband already. She met a guy in the camps, and she came. I met my husband there. They, in between them, moved to Katowice. And...and I had to go with them. And there, I met my husband. Like I said, he was from a completely different part of Poland. I am from middle Poland. He is from ost [Yidd: east] Poland. But he lived downstairs. And we lived in a bigger building, in a larger building, with my friends--with my girlfriend and her husband. And there I met my husband. Just my mother was still... | went just to see my sister, mine girlfriend. My mother and my sister was still in_od_. And I went with him to Lod_, and got married there in _6d_. And went back for a short time to Katowice. And from there we wanted, we decided we're going to go all, my mother and my sister and me. Just we couldn't pass the border to Germany. We couldn't go back. We had to have somebody to, nu, go like the coming in from...from Cuba--illegal

Q: Refugees.

A: Refugees. Yes.

Q: Why did you want to go to Germany at this point?

A: At this point, we had a chance from Germany to go to Israel.

Q: Ah, OK. Who was going to take you to Israel?

A: Again, we could go illegal to Israel. Just I had...as we... "til we waited to illegal to Israel, I had already my son, mine first kid. As we...was complicated to go illegal. We could, they took; but, you know, uh mine sister-in-law, the same sister-in-law what I told you, went with Exodus to Israel. They went with the kids and with her husband. They were with Exodus, they went with Exodus. Just we went in "49. Beginning of "49. That's why we went back to Germany. It was even easier, we were less afraid then of the Germans than the Poles. When I saw my sister, when we came, we walked; wasn't going a train to Kozienice then. And the Poles, so when I saw my sister and I started running and hugging her, they were laughing.

"Look at them, there again." And this was our friends. We lived together. As this feelings were already so hurt, we couldn't stay anymore. It was impossible. We was scared. And...and we were, everything worth went through, the in the room in the and everything as went and waiting to go to Israel, which we went. So soon we had the, in "48, Israel was free and we went with the first Aliya, with the first of us to Israel. Me, my husband and my little boy.

Q: In'49, you went to Israel?

A: Yes.

Q: It was just after the independence? Okay.

A: Yes. And, like I say, was uh was...I wanted only, after all this happened, I didn't want to go anywhere. Just to Israel. Just later I couldn't take it to be separated from my mother and sister, the only mother and sister. Because they changed their mind. When I left, they weren't ready to leave. My mother wasn't with me, and my sister, too. My sister got married. And my mother, we had papers for my mother to go to Israel, too. Just when we went, my sister was in her eighth month of pregnancy with her oldest. As was uh my mother going to stay "til she's going to have the baby, and they're all going to come to Israel. And later, in "49, was...

Israel was then, the worstest time. Wasn't food, wasn't work, wasn't...was bad enough. Just to be honest with you, I made a mistake. It's the best country. I love it here now. Just I loved Israel. And my husband loved the...I was crying day and night "til I got adjusted. My son was already then turning thirteen years old when we came here. Wasn't easy for him.

Q: How did you get here?

A: We get...we got here on our own. We paid. We paid uh then was in "59. It was...was no help to getting here. In "49 and even "50's, the Jewish organization would...organizations brought you here. We paid for our trip here, because sentimental reasons. Just we had a hard time here, too, in the beginning. Just it's the best country what can be besides Israel. The best.

Q: Eva, thank you.

A: You're welcome.

Q: OK. The children, you wanted to tell us about the children.

A: What I can still. When I got...when I was in front of the block--I think was all 21 or 22 in Birkenau--and arrived transport, and I saw taking out about three or four hundred children.

And they didn't killed them with bullets. Just on the wall. They tore them through them, just from, yeah, let's say, took three or four years. They took or they tore them apart, or they throw them to the wall. And this is the worstest thing what I remember; and I don't sleep at nights still, remembering this. How they put those children, one after another, like "til the ceiling. Little children. This was done by the German people, soldiers. Germans. (PAUSE) Was the worst thing that I... Another thing this was in ghetto still, if we have another minute.

Two Germans... I was looking through the window, because I wasn't allowed to go the main...with the main entrance out. Was a voice, maybe then four years old, one said to the other, "Who's going...who's going to shoot in the eyes? Who's going, this kid, who's going to get his eyes?" And they shoot him.

Q: Germans?

A: Germans. This little...

Q: Shoot a little boy in the eyes?

A: Yes. And it's hard. It's hard to forget things like this. Little children, what they didn't... Like my father said, "They're not going to do to us anything, if we're not doing anything wrong."

Q: Are there any other stories you want to tell us?

A: I think I'm...

Q: Can you go back? Can you go all the way back to when you first arrived at Auschwitz,

A: Yes.

Q: . ..and you said you were taken in... you were taken into the gas chambers.

A: Yes.

Q: Can you describe it for us? Where, how were you taken in and what it was like?

A: We were taken, we had to leave our clothes. And they led us in...in...in. Enough that we got already showered. They took us to those chambers. And we were sitting there, sitting there; and we were like already dead people then. We didn't care so much about life anyway. We was just sitting and waiting; and one person said, "Oh, they going to gas us." And one person: "Oh, what you talking about?" Was like no interest in life anymore. Was like, really, we got to a point that's what they did to us all the time. They made us not... We got to a point we didn't care anymore. How much can a person take? How much abuse can a person take?

You see, it was every time somebody you love so much you see taken away-- your father, your brother, you know. They already killed one brother, one get gassed; and there's just so much you can take. We were sitting very quiet. No, we weren't screaming. You saw in the movie. I think our group, we were sitting there a very long time. This I remember. When I saw those uh benches and this, I remember. Just I was completely like uh not uh caring anymore. That's what I was, "What's going to happen?" I just was happy I still had my little sister near me and my mother. That's all. It's unbelievable what they... what uh people can do to people. That's all that I can say . . because they made us like...we couldn't think anymore, I think, to a point. And not care. Just still care about the family; the family was mine. This is about all I can say. Just the kids are still bother me, my whole life. Cannot forget, uh, three year blonde girl said in Polish to her mother. They took her out from her mother's, uh

, which you have would be in English. "Mommy..." No dear mother. Three-year old. "I'm not going to see you anymore," she said. The Germans took her out from her mother's...took the girl out from her mother's hands. They knew. I saw that. And its hard, it's already... This must have been in "44. I was already in Auschwitz. Was uh...can't forget those things. No, it's a nightmare, a living nightmare. That's all.

Q: Eva, thank you.

A: You're welcome.

End of Tape #2

Conclusion of Interview