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years older than my sister, Rachel) was taking me to the park. When | was going to the park, | had to get dressed and | had to wear white gloves and if my nanny decided that my clothes were not proper, she was to go to the store, we had an account, she used to order material for the dress, she used to go to the dress maker and then, after awhile, when the bill came to my father, my father used to say this women will ruin me, but she was the only one who's no afraid of him and she was saying to him, "Do you think this is right, that our two little girls, who look like paupers? How, what would the other nannies in the park say?" So, my father was a patafanilias(ph), you know, very good but stern and his word was, even, was, | mean, he had to just to look at you and we knew what he meant and his word was going . And my mother, many times, she was also a bread winner but she was intimidated but my nanny stood her ground and she was saying to my mother, "The little girls have to bend to be little ladies" and so | had the very, very, pampered childhood and very good childhood. | loved my parents and they really gave me the best that they could.

Q: What language do you speak at home?

A: When my parents, when they were young people, they started in the University of St. Petersburg, so they spoke Russian. "Til | was three or four years old, | only spoke Russian and then one day, my father came, and said "We have to speak Polish" because Vienna(ph) was ___, you know, at time, it was like in between, it was Russian, it was Polish, now it is Lithuanian and each countries brought their language so we had to read, know, a lot of languages, so then | started to speak Polish; and, | was sent to a private school, only for Jewish children, but we were taught only Polish, but we had lessons in Hebrew and in the religious instructions so "til | went to the ghetto, | only spoke Polish. When my parents spoke between themselves, they spoke a lot of Russian, so | knew those two languages.

Q: What was the relationship to your sister?

A: | was always told by my father that | am the oldest one and | have to take care of her. And, also, my sister was a very pretty, feminine, little girl and she could get away with a lot that | couldn't because my father decided very early that | have to be a doctor and | was a good student in school but | was always knew that | have to have very good grades because, this, | was the oldest one and | had to further my education. My sister was not a too good student and she didn't like the except she liked pretty dresses, like that, but she had no obligation to be a very good student because my father decided that she is going to marry a well-to-do person, a professional who will take very good care of her. So, it was always understood that | was the serious one and she was the little woman, and we accepted it, of course, we didn't have big fight but sometimes little fights like who, we had braids, who the nanny, who should braid the hair before, me or her? And, little, little, things, but it was always put in my mind that | am the oldest one and | have to take care of her.

Q: What did it mean, in your household and your family, to be Jewish?

A: You see, as a child, | didn't really, was exposed to much to the rich because my parents, being students and being, and this time with the Russian revolution, didn't, were not religious at all. And, | really didn't even so much know that | was Jewish but, later on, we lived in, very close to, the university and there were riots in, near the medical faculty, because the Jewish students attended the faculty, were suppose to sit on the left. So instead of them sitting on the left, they was standing up and taking notes and when the riots were occurring and the nanny used to pick me up from school, and | heard, and then | was very much aware of my father's suffering. My mother had a lot of Polish patience and she had a very good reputation that she was taking out, doing extraction, taking out teeth, and very big, tall, well-to-do, landowners used to come with their horse and buggies and the driver used to wait for them and they to go up to my mother, kiss her hand, and bring us fresh strawberries and all this kinds and she didn't hear it. But, when it happened to my father, when it happened to the students we were well aware that we are Jews and that we are not wanted.

Q: When was that?

A: | think the riots started, | would say, as far as | remember, my farth___(ph) were in 1935. The riots at the university was in "36-37. The Poles were very anticipated(ph) and they told that all there misfortunes were caused by those people that were taking away everything from them, that those people were well to do, that those people were not telling the true, but the truth is that there were a lot, a lot, very poor Jews. There was a whole section in my town, Vienna(ph), where there was such a poor Jews living in cellars, the children were dying from tuberculosis and all the related sicknesses; but, | was always brought up with the mind that charity's very important. We always had boxes for orphan children, we always had a box to help Israel. Even my parents were not, this times : And, when my mother passed away, she had a very big funeral and a lot of people that | didn't know that exist, came over to me and told me that even she had a very big practice, all the poor people, from all around who knew, that they can come to the dentist, Gutalip Carich Masur(ph), in the middle of the night, she will take care of them and she will never, never, ask them for money. When | was in concentration camp, | meet a woman who was working in the kitchen, and she a little bit more bread, and she came over to me and she gave me one potato and piece of bread, and she says to me, "I am one of those patients that your mother helped" and, you know, it was in very bad taste, in my mother's circle, if you did something good, you never tell it, you never brag about it. You do it and it's, ...so | never knew about it.

Q: So the first tragedy in your life really occurred when your mother died?

A: Yes.

Q: And then the second major in your life was in 1941 when the invasion came, the Polish invasion came?

A: No, no, no. The second one was September 1, 1939, when the Germany raided Poland; because, as it happens, this time, it was summertime, and | was in Solie(ph) where my father had the pharmacy. It was a very small town, maybe 20 minutes by train from Genow(ph). And, me and my sister were in Solie(ph) on vacation. And, also, | have to mention that after my mother passed away, my mother had an older sister, her name was Sonya Lickowvitchpersky(ph), who was a registered nurse and a mid-wife; and she became our second mother. She was always very close with us because those two sisters were very close and apparently my mother, on her death bed, asked her to take care of her two little girls, so she became our second mother, and she spend, sometimes summertime, she went there to Solie(ph) with us and then she left us and went back to her husband in Vienna(ph) where was her residence, she didn't have children. And, so, on September 1, | was in Solie(ph) and, as it happens, there was a pact made.

Vienna(ph) became a part of Lithuania and Solie became a part of White Russia.

So we were, we're now only with our father and we were separated from our second mother and it was just terrible, but our whole life was up-side-down, from this time, because when the Russian came to Solie, you know, the first thing what they did, they said that my father is a rich man. They called him bourgeois and they didn't give him a passport and he was now like an enemy of the people. Even he, he didn't do anything to..., he was working very hard to be an owner, he was considered persona-nongratta(ph) and | couldn't go to school in Solie because there was no high school and | just started go to high school, so | was sent to a town called Dushanitover(ph) was the high school and my father rented a room there and | attended this school and | was always, always, separated from my sister, was staying with my father in Solie(ph) because there was a grammar school there. So there very, very, big upheaval and | was studying there "til 1941. | visited once, my aunt, and | had other family, my aunt, my second and that was in Vienna(ph) and | had all the, two cousins. Because my father arranged somehow to gave a permission during the vacation, to come to visit them. And, when | came there and stayed with my Aunt, | was looking for my friends from my school, and it was a complete division, my school, my beloved school...the

children couldn't go there because they had to learn Lithuanian and some of them went to the Polish school. It was a big, big, upheaval in our young life. So when | came back, | was heartbroken because everything that was dear to me was kind of destroyed. But, then came June, 1941...this was when the German army came to our town, but before they came, | wanted to tell you that my father was thrown out from, by the Russian, from the pharmacy, and he was made a manager in a little town called Astroegetts(ph), so they had to move there. And, of course, he was very disappointed, but he was trying to do his best and he became very friendly with a young doctor that was living just near us, and this was actually in his only companion because the cultural level of the town people were very low. So here | am in Astroegetts(ph), | just came for vacation, it was June, and I'm sitting and reading a book, and | remember what book | was reading...l was reading the book in Russian and it was by the son of Tolstoy and it was about Peter the Great. And, | am sitting and reading the book and they are describing, describing the banquette with all kinds of exotic food that they are giving and they are talking about black grapes, that | never saw in my life in Poland within and they are talking about peaches that | never saw and here | am reading this book and the maid came running from the pharmacy and saying "Your father wants you right away, the German invaded and they are coming to our town." We were strangers in Astorgetts(ph)...we just couldn't make friends in such a short time so we didn't have, like, roots there. When | cam running, there was a truck standing with Russian doctors and Russian nurses who were good friends of my father and they asked my father we should go on the truck and they will take us to Russia. And, my father took me and my sister into the room and said, "My children, during the war, a person has to have a roof over their head, a roof is very important. | know the German invited us when we were in Poland and some how they were even

so | don't believe that they will do any harm to me, after all, | am a law-abiding person and | am professional." So, we were standing there...as soon as the Russian left, in a few more hours, the maid of the young doctor, there was a friend of my father came running up and said that the doctor told me to tell you there will be a program (you know what is a program) tonight and since you are the most prominential in this town, you will be the first one. So he said, "Leave everything and go someplace, because you will be killed." There was a rabbi in the town, so my father went to the rabbi and told him and the rabbi said, "Okay, you stay here." And, low and behold, this night was a very big program...we heard it.

There were peasant(ph) with those big things that you clean the street, | forgot how to say it in English...

Q: Rakes?

A: Rakes! With rakes running around and beating up all the Jews and it was a very big, very big, program, in town, and they were all looking for us. "Where is the

pharmacist?" and we were sitting in the hidden room and they didn't come to the Rabbi. | don't what was, but it was luck. So, the next day, in the morning, we came out and we went to our house and one of the well-to-do Polish people, that went __, was also persecuted by a Russian, came to my father and said that "I will take your belongings and you come to me because, and you were good to me and | will help you out and he had a very big, not a palace, a very big farm house and a lot of landing(ph). So, my father and my sister took a baggy and put some belongings and ended up going there and | was sitting in the house with other belongings. On the way, the Poles with rakes saw them and took everything away, put my father against the tree, and shot him...and my little sister was ten (sp), or maybe 12 years old, something, saw it...and grazed his right hip, he didn't shot in to(ph) but grazed, and his arm was...and they were moved along.

[End of Side A, Tape 1]

Q: Interview with Lily Mazur(ph) Margules, conducted by on August 27, 1996, at Lily's home in the Bronx, New York. This is tape one, side B.

A: Still today, | don't know if it was staged, that he wanted to rob us, this Pole, or it was just, just one of those things that the peasants were wild and they were, they just attacked him. So there | was sitting and I, when | saw my father all bloody and there is, there are no word that | can describe you, but | was very concerned because my little sister became very hysterical and she couldn't cry because we had to be very quiet. Our life was in danger. So we left everything that we had there, all our goods, and we went again to the Rabbi. And in the morning, somehow, my father contacted a peasant and gave him a sum of money and he, asked him to take us to Vilna to my aunt. After my father came with this, all bleeding, something happened to my dog, Rex. He was so attached to us, he was like a member of my family. When my mother passed away, he was sitting there in the room because in Europe you didn't put the casket in a funeral home, it was in the room, so he was sitting and he went, and he was howling, it was a terrible howl, but there was no way that he would move from my mother's casket. He was sitting together with me and | spent the night with him there. When there was the funeral, he wanted to go in the funeral cortege and he became wild when they had to subdue him and put him in the room. He was very much attached to us. When my father came and all bloody, something happened to this dog and he, had like a paralysis and his head turned to the side. And my father took him out to a field and asked somebody to shoot him. And it was like an end of an era. Because this dog was like, everything what was good and carefree and pink and colorful in our childhood. So next day, we got up very, very early in the morning and this peasant took a wagon of hide, and put us there, camouflaged us and we had like babushkas(ph), and he took us, after a few hours, we came very early in the morning to Vilna. And he left us in a place that | was not even familiar where, how where. And | also didn't know that there was then a curfew of Jews, that the Jews could just walk a certain hours, and the Jews had to have yellow, a star, this, Stars of David, and they also had to walk in the gutter. So it took us a few hours and | was walking with my sister on the street like two little Polish girls. And when my aunt saw us, she thought that we came from the other side, who know what. Of course, she was very, very happy and we were in Vilna. A few days later, my father came. And my father, from all the aggravation of everything, became ill and had a very big abscess. And also, in Vilna, the Jews were persecuted like subhumans.

Every day, new edicts were coming. We couldn't have a radio, we couldn't have a jewelry, we couldn't have a watch, we couldn't have properties, we couldn't talk to gentiles. | mean, we were plain ostracizes. And every day they used to come and take out men and young boys and they used to disappear and the women never knew where they were and what was done to these young . One of my uncles, my mother's sister's husband, was taken from the street, he was standing and reading an edict, he was taken from the street and she never saw him again. So the situation was very, very tense and my father was very ill and he was afraid to go out in the street. But once he became so ill and the abscess that he had was so big that during the night, he decided that he had to go, so my uncle and my aunt took him by the hand and they were walking in the middle of the night, they took him to a hospital that was in the Jewish section, it was a Jewish hospital. And he was staying there. And my other uncle no, never went out. And when the Gestapo used to come and ask if there are men there, she used to come out and, luckily, they would look in a few rooms and my, he was camouflaged, something, so my uncle was never found. So it was, until, until, | don't remember exactly the date, | think it was June 6, 19, no, no, no, September 6, 1941, that an edict came that all the Jews have to go to the ghetto. But it was such a diabolic, diabolic plan, a master plan, the way they did it. There was, as | told you, there was a section, a Jewish section in the heart of Vilna, a very, very cultural town that had a lot of theaters, archives and museums and it had, and Jewish, very rich Jewish life with libraries and all kinds of societies and charitable organization. And there were a lot of Jewish doctors that had a Jewish hospital. And also, there were a lot of facilities for poor Jewish children. In the heart of Vilna was a section where very poor Jews lived, it was in very bad conditions. The German came there in the middle of the night, with trucks, told all those Jews to walk out, put them on the trucks and took them to a prison called Lukishke(ph) and also took them to a place, a big forest called Ponare(ph), it was a place where those Jews was lined up and shot discriminately, first they had to make their own grave, and they were falling in those graves. When | was in ghetto, sick in the hospital, that | will tell you later, one of the woman who escaped between the dead bodies came to the ghetto and in the beginning when she was just a little lucid, she described what happened to her, so we knew for a fact that it was happening. And then, after a few days, she lost her mind. | still remember her yelling and screaming and crying after the children that she lost there, after the family. So it was, a very diabolic plan how to do it. When we were told to go to the ghetto, they came, everything was done early in the morning, and my uncle, Yosef(ph) Perski(ph), said to my aunt, "Look, | am not going to the ghetto". He was, had a very big advantage, he doesn't look Jewish, he look like a gentile, he look like a Pole and he was a business man that had a lot of connections with Polish peasants. He was buying wood there from them and also dried mushrooms, he says, "| am going there and | want you to go with me". She says, she, my aunt Sonja, who was like a second mother to us, said to him, "I promised my sister on her death bed that | am, be a second mother and | will take care of those two little girls, Lilla(ph) and Rhya(ph)," this was how we were called, "And | won't leave them alone". We didn't know about it. So they kissed and he sneaked out and he went. We never heard from him. And she went with us to the ghetto. Before he left, he gave us a few things to put on and as we were walking on the street, | had one coat and one raincoat and the Poles were lined up on the street and looking at, and | will never forget that they said, "Look at those Jews, they have two coats". So they were, nobody of them lifted a finger and said, "Come, | give you food, | won't let you go to the ghetto", because they really were rejoicing what was happening to us. There were two ghettos and one ghetto, the people that were taken to one ghetto, this was the ghetto that | was, were destined to leave. The other ghetto, a lot of people were taken, again, to the Lukishke prison, from there to Ponare, and they were simply shot. So this way the have the liquidated a lot of Jews. Before the war, before 1939, there were 80,000 Jews in Vilna. Vilna was a culture center, with many institutions, it was a culture Jewish center that was like a magnet from all the people that wanted to soak up and had a nice cultural experience. So slowly, slowly the Jewish population were reduced and also, at this time, there were all other people, Jews, that escape from Austria, that escape from Germany, that escape from Poland, that look for solace in Vilna, and they, unfortunate, were also put to live in the ghetto. | can talk for hours and hours about those conditions that were in the ghetto. It is indescribable. One room was habitated four or five family. There was no sanitary conditions, there was not even enough water. The rations were terrible, | mean, it's not to live and not to die. And the most important thing is, that the . All those people that were doers, that were thinkers, that were writers, became so helpless, so degradated, so broken up, that they just couldn't exist. | remember that my father, whenever that there was something in the family, they used to come, they with Mazur, he knew everything, he was, he felt that he can help, he felt that he can, so was the most helpless person in the ghetto. He was like a hunted animal and | think this was the biggest injustice that was done to Jewish people. By dehumanize them. The taking away their self-esteem, the taking away their pride, the taking away their human dignity. | know that you want to ask me how | meet my father. Yeah?

Okay, you can ask me.

Q: Actually, | wanted to ask you, at this time, you and your sister were two teenage girls.

A: Yes.

Q: How did, how did you cope, how did you feel at the time?

A: | felt very bad. | felt very bad because | was emotionally broken up. | remember, | was walking with my sister in the ghetto and we were surrounded with walls and there was one very big door, like an opening, what was mind from one side for Jewish policemen, for the other side by Gestapo and Lithuanian policemen. So come out and come in, we were, there was a lot of, you had to have papers. But | remember walking with my sister around and we were standing by a wall and | heard from the other side, human voices, walking and | heard children and I, | could hear that they were going and also | heard the car, music from a carousel. And | was standing there and | was thinking, will you tell me that nobody cares about us?

Will you tell me that children are going to school, they're going to the movies, that people are going, doing their jobs and nobody cares? This was the hope, the biggest, | was hungry, | was dirty, | was really in rags. | was cold, but what's hurting me, | was humiliated. And | couldn't understand that nobody in the world will speak up for us and ask, "Why? What are those people, how those people mistreated?

Why did they do, why, how are they singled out, to be put to such a torture and misery?" And this was the biggest, the biggest thing that | couldn't understand.

Q: So how did you meet up with your father?

A: You see, | was there with, in this room and once my aunt, who was a nurse, was walking on the street and she met somebody that she knew and she said to her, "Where are you going?" And she says, "I am going to the hospital, | hope that my brother-in-law is there". She says to me, "Oh, your brother-in-law is in the hospital and he is crying, he is crying, where are his daughters, where are his, where is his family? He is beside himself, he doesn't want to get better". And she took her by the hand and showed him where he was. So he stayed a very short time in the hospital, they didn't pamper people, they didn't have time for this. Later on he came and he stayed with us. In a very short time after, we were starving and also, my father was a smoker, he smoked, so this, the cigarette that he smoked, they were not real cigarette, but a homemade cigarette, many times | used to wake up and | used to see him smoking at night. And once he went out and he found a job, they were looking for people to work in, not as a pharmacist, but to work in a Spanish hospital that were outside the ghetto. And he was going every day and he was working there just as a laborer. And then one day, he met somebody and they and they told him they are looking for a pharmacist to look in, to work in a pharmacy because it was the Jewish hospital that was in the center of the ghetto and they needed a pharmacist. So he was very happy and very elated and, of course, they took him right in and he was working in the pharmacy. We were starving so much that at night sometimes we couldn't sleep. And they give us such a small ration that they gave us this piece of bread when we came home, me and my sister, we finished already the bread, so you know. As much as my aunt wanted to share the rations with us and may times she shared with us, it was not enough. So one day | decided, | heard that people are going outside the ghetto and they are working. So one time | got up very early in the morning and we had, in the middle of the ghetto, a place called Judenrat(ph) and there were people that, from the Jewish, that community, that were like in charge of the ghetto, they were, and one of those that was in charge of the ghetto was Jacob Gentz(ph), who was an officer in the Lithuanian army and he was like a Jewish commander of the ghetto. And right there there was a very big place and German used to come and take men and women, we were always segregated, to work and | was lucky enough that | was recruited by this German, his name was Kraus(ph). And he took, he took me to work. There was, maybe a handed, two handed young girls, and he, he took us out from the ghetto and we were working on the cobblestones and we were working, working, working a long time. And all of a sudden, the whole column stopped and to my amazement, they stopped in front of the private school where | spend the happiest days of my life. They took us down there, the school was occupied by Gestapo and from the classrooms they made offices. And there was a very big cellar there that when | was a student, | didn't even know that that existed. And they put us into this big cellar and the cellar was full with potatoes and we had to sort out the potatoes, they were rotten and so there | was, sitting in this , in this big cellar and | was thinking, this must be a nightmare. | wanted to run, run out from there, run to one of my classrooms, sit down in my seat, there was sitting late, and | said to myself, | am running out, | will take the hardest test, | don't care. And then all of a sudden | see a man walking there and taking care of chicken, there were a few chicken there in the cellar. He looked terrible, , this was Professor Morgenstern(ph), he was the latest of my teachers and he was like the teacher that took care of our class. And when my mother passed away and in our religion, for seven days, we sit shiva, he came to my house and he was talking to me, because when my mother was sick, my grades fell very badly because | didn't want to study and | was there always the teacher's pet. | was very good student. And he was talking to me and he said, "Look, I'm sure that you, if you will just put your head to it, you can have a makeover test and you will have better grades". But | remember saying to him, "I really, at this point, | really don't care. For me, the world is finished". So to my amazement, Professor Morgenstern is standing there and taking care of the chicken. You see, we are not supposed to socialize with men, this was the biggest crime, but | ran over to him, | said, "Professor Morgenstern". But he didn't recognize me. He went through a very big tragedy. In his presence, his wife and his daughter and his son were shot.

And he was in such a state of shock, that he was just like an out mad(ph). As | was sitting there crying, afraid to cry loud because there were, full of sad, | see the door opens and two girls and a man are coming out, this was the janitor and his two Polish daughter. When | was a little girl and we were going to school, the janitor and his two daughters were always helping us with galoshes because the climate in our town was very severe in wintertime and many times we would share our lunches, we considered them our friend. When they saw me sitting there, they said, "Look at this little Lilka(ph), we thought that all Jews were killed in Ponar".

This was the hello that | had from them. They were standing with their hands on their hips and they were practically laughing. Okay, the day ended and | came home and | was beside myself. It was just a little bit too much for me to go to the school, to see my professor and to hear those talking. Anyhow, look, | was going there and working there for a long, long time. And one advantage was that we could bring a few raw potatoes, but by the entrance, if they would caught us with potatoes, we would be shot on site. But we learned how to camouflage it, you know, and sometimes we were lucky, they would let us through, and those potatoes were very helpful because my father used to sell them and we could buy something else. After a while this job finished and this same German took us to an airport called Porbanek(ph) and, again, | started to work in Probanek. We were working long, long, long time. They brought us over, they used to always line us up and count us and the job with it was unload big pieces of coal, unload wood, unload potatoes and many times in the winter, we had to clean the airport. The snow was falling and there we were. And we saw those military little planes coming down and all those military men in their white warm coats and there we were freezing practically, we had no, no warm clothes and | had a very big problem because the shoes that | had were falling apart. So my father went to the Judenrat and they gave me a pair of shoes, they were wooden clumps(ph). They were wooden, you know, and with presented some material, when | was working in the snow | couldn't walk because the snow was, it was just sticking, so it was a very big deal. But one day, when we were lined up, | was lucky. Every day four women were chosen to go into the barracks and clean. This was a very big thing because you, it was wintertime, you didn't have to freeze. And | was lucky, | was chosen with all those four women. So there | was, standing in this big place, and | was given a bucket of water and a mop and | have to mop those barracks. Here you have me, | was just a school girl, who never in her life boiled a pot of tea. | didn't know it. So there were, the other three women who were more experienced , took their bucket and they knew what to do. They took me and put it in this big room that you couldn't see from one end to another and the floor was dirty and there | was standing, | didn't know how to start. | know how to do it today, but | didn't know then and | was standing there and crying, bitter tears. All of a sudden, like an apparition, a very high German officer is coming with a few younger around him and he sees me and he says to me, "What are you doing here?" And at this time, | spoke a very good German yet, today | cannot speak German, | have a mental block. In a very clear German, | said to him, "| am Jewish, brought in from ghetto to wash it and | don't know how to do it".

End of Tape 1.

Tape 2 He looked at me. | don't know what...he called in a soldier, told a soldier to wash the floor, took me by the hand and took me to his office, said to me "Are you hungry?" | was afraid to say, so | put my head down and he told another German to bring me a sandwich and hot soup, and then | was sitting there. He said to me, "You are Jewish?" | said, "Yes," and he started to ask me my whole story and then | was sitting and conversing with this man and | became so...the hot soup...and the sandwich make me so, you know, courageous, that | didn't, | said to him, you want me, | know, you want me to recite for you the Early King by Getta(ph); so, he says to me, "You know the Early King?" | said, "Yes" and then | was, | said | will stand down and | will recite it for you, there I'm scared to death, reciting the Early King for him. And, this man says to me, "You are Jewish?" "Yes," | said, "Yes." He said, "They told us that all the Jews are crooked, have crooked noses, they have beards, they are liars, they are cheaters. | says to him, "You know | was very good in Chemistry." He wanted to ask me a few chemical formulas. Anyhow, to make the long story short, this man brought me a book of poetry and told another soldier to close the door, and brought me a few sandwiches that | took to my father and to my aunt and to my sister in the ghetto, and he was beside himself, he was so brainwashed that he was beside himself that the Jewish young girl can talk to him intelligently, can explain to him, can cite poetry, can read, and he gave me the book, but | was afraid to take it. | said to him, if they caught me, by the guard, with the German book, | was :

| am telling you, to illustrate to you, how the German people were brainwashed, because if he was a high officer, he had a education. How could he let, to come to this level that he could think by himself, and he couldn't distinguish...and, in my experiences, during the Nazi era, | had a few encounters.

Once | met with somebody that will talk and that he is the director of the Munich Opera. That he was also an officer. He was in the Assess(ph), and that he couldn't understand when | told him that as a child, | knew the Lehar(ph) operettas, | knew the opera; he couldn't understand that the Jews were all so cultured, people that are professionals, that they were not cheaters, and not liars, and not bloodsucker.

It was beside him, and he couldn't understand this.

Q: When the day came when you were forced to leave the ghetto, would you say a little more about the period of events then?

A: Well, as | told you before, the conditions in ghetto were very, very bad, and because | worked outside, | could help a little bit and we could surv...we were not starving, and also because my aunt was a nurse, she found herself also a job. She was selling vitamins, some kind of concoction. So we were starving and surviving but one summer, this was the summer of 1943, | was walking barefoot

in because those shoes were so uncomfortable that | just, whenever | had the chance, | was take them off and | step on a rustic nail, and | was afraid to tell the German that was supervising him because only a Jew, or a Jewess or a Jewess girl could use, be use for them; what good otherwise we were shot from that...so when | came home, the infection started and from my big toe of my right leg to hip | had the red thing and my father knew a doctor, a surgeon in the hospital, so he went there and 10 o'clock at night | had an operation and | was put in the hospital and | didn't work anymore but | was in the hospital. But, | have to describe you a little bit, the life in the ghetto. Despite all the conditions, the terrible condition, there was a cultural life brewing there. There were people that open a classic

that were handsome, there were young songwriters, there were getting kind of performances, there were all a resistant movement. People were escaping through the source and going to the pat in the nearby woods. There was a very big forest called Rudnetska(ph) forest and there was also a pap

in the , it was not dirty, it was...stained water...how you call it?

Q: Pond?

A: A big pond!

Q: A lake?

A: Yes, Nadach(ph) Lake. And, around of . And | know that a lot of my friends escaped through the sewers, threw to pap and were fighting there. Unfortunately, | didn't have the money because when we came to the ghetto, we were ruined because everything was from and in order to be you had to have a gun and a gun at this time was like 2000 , a lot of money, so | was approached if | would like to join the partisan(ph). First of all, | couldn't leave my sister, was younger one and she was not available to go, and | wouldn't leave my family so | didn't go; but, there was a lot of resistant activity going on and | don't want you to think that the young people from Vienna were going like sheep to the slaughter, no, a few days before the liquidation of the ghetto, the ghetto resistance was throwing papers and saying the Jews, you are going to the slaughter, you are going to die anyhow, if you have a stone, if you have anything, if you have a stick. | even have, | found, | had a paper, the days resistant was distributing and there was a lot of disturbances with the resistant fear of Vietenburg(ph) that came, that Gestapo came to the ghetto and said that if you don't give Vietenburg(ph) the whole ghetto will be destroyed and this

Vietenburg(ph) who was dressed as a woman gave himself up because he didn't want to have on his conscience that the whole ghetto was destroyed.

When | was in the hospital, one day | heard a very big commotion in the back yard and | was in very poor shape but | broked through the window and | saw Gestapo truck standing in front of the pharmacy and | saw my father in his white coat and other people taken out from the pharmacy and put in this truck. | started to yell "Father"; my father saw me and he was taken away from pharmacy and was taken away to Estonia(ph) labor camp. It was very turbulent time because the Gestapo was coming to Genz(ph) everyday, and demanding more and more people; and they were coming in the middle of the night taking people from beds and putting them in a column in the front they would put a fiddler, the fiddler was playing music to sooth the people...brainwash the people...and take them out from the ghetto. And, we never saw them again. There were a lot of rumors in the ghetto that the liquidation of the ghetto is very soon. We knew that the surrounding little towns were being liquidated and we even knew about Panado(ph) Forest and about the crematory and Gues . So, when | was in the hospital, | was in such a poor shape that my wound was full of puss and didn't heal; but one night, my aunt came and said that she heard rumors that all the people from the hospital will be taken because Genz(ph) decided he better get the sick people than the young people. So, she said this is not the place for you. So she took me out and we went to our room and in the middle of the night, a friend of my father came to us and said that heard the rumor that tomorrow would be liquidation from the ghetto...that he has a secret room, we used to call it Mileana(ph) this is in Polish, and we will wait in this room till the German leave us and then we will go maybe to the partisan(ph) and he had built this secret room and because he knew my father, he included me, my aunt and my little sister and we took there. And, the only thing that we had to eat was a head of green cabbage. As we were sitting there, we heard all kinds of commotion, and they always it was already early in the morning, and it was September 23, 1943. The big heavy commode, you know, was moved and Ukrainians and Lithuanians and Germans came running and the Ukrainians were yelling in Russian, "Give me your watch, jussy(ph), jussy(ph).

They wanted to rob us right away and they all took us to the center of the ghetto, they separated the men from the women. Of course, | meet there, my other aunt and with her daughter and her son was already taken and her son's wife; we all stuck together. And, they took us out through the gates of the ghetto, and we were walking, walking, and they took us to a very big place called the Rosa(ph) Cemetery(ph). When we came to the Cemetery, the first thing we saw was three young bodies hanging and dangling in the wind; there was a girl and two young boys...they were pak . They were caught, and this is how they brainwashed us and intimidated us and made us afraid to move, to escape, to plan something, a riot or whatever. On this Arosa(ph) Cemetery, it was such an erie feeling, like the death was watching over us. We were separated, men separate and women separate and we have...there is a selection. The one that goes to life go to the right and the one that go to the left are going to death. And, you know, the woman said that mothers with young children are going to the left, old people are going too, only able bodies are going to the right; and my sister at this time was pretty young and she looked much younger, so my aunt Sonya took off a pair of her shoes and they had the little heel and she put them on and she made her a bust and she told her to straighten out, and we were walking, my sister was in the center, my aunt on one side and | from the other side and as we came to the selection, the German pushed my aunt to the left and me and my sister to the right and | started to cry and | said "I want to go with my mother," and he had a big rifle and a very big stick, so he beat me and he said to me, you are too young, you have to work for the phatalan(ph). And | said, "But, | want to go with my mother!" He beat me again and | never saw my aunt again. She went to the left.

As we were going to the selection, we saw little children that were abandoned by their parents, not men, but there was one little boy, | will never forget him...was maybe three years old, he was a beautiful boy and the assessment(ph) was holding him and he was crying "Mama, Mama!" This is what they did, they took young mothers and they separated them from the children. What is...| don't think that there is a bigger crime than separate a child from the mother and dehumanize the mother that she should abandon your child because she wanted to live. When we were standing there | was crying so hard that people came around me and my aunt came and she said "Where is my sister, where is Sonya?" and we were beside ourselves. She was sent to the right and she looked older then, but it was her destiny...they put us...they took us to the railroad station. They put us in cattle trains. Those cattle trains were packed so much that we didn't have a place where to sit down. We were just standing up and in the middle of this cattle train was a very big tub with the disinfectant and this was our toilet. We were just standing up and sometimes people were without water for a couple of days, no water, no bread; people were just falling like flies. One day, in the middle of the night, after this long voyage, we would, sometimes we looked, you know, through a opening, and we were just so countryside. We drove to a place, the music was playing, the dogs were barking, there were Gestapo there, you know the Gestapo with their hats, you know with there emblems and with their rifles and with those big dogs and they said, "Out! Out! Out!" And, music was playing and very big reflectors, there was light, twas...and they told again to line up and there was electric fences around us and they took us inside and again lined up. And this was the first time that | saw a defaced woman. This woman is something...| have to describe it for you...most of them would buxomy young women with blond hair with very tight uniforms, with very long boots and all of them had horse hooks(ph) and they used them, thy were very strong with very strong voices and if they saw a young Jewish girl that was blond, she was their victim because a Jewess girl was not suppose to look like an

Aryan. Near me was standing a beautiful young woman, she was much older than me but she was a real beauty with blue eyes and blond hair and despite that she came from the ghetto, somehow she was outstanding. And they were beating her for no reason. You know when you stand there, you were not a person, you didn't have a name, you just had a number and then they told us to line up and to disrobe and naked we were taken to a very big place. The only thing remarkable about this very big place, it was that it had like showerheads on top and since we heard about gassing, me and my sister and my aunt, we were prepared that they took us to a gas chamber. So | was standing all naked by this little shower head and | was, we were saying goodby and | was begging God for one thing...| should be the first one should fall because | couldn't see with my aunt and my sister, , sol was there really praying the first time in my life with the way | could and | said, "Momma, help me, | want to be the first one." For an eternity, they closed the door, for an eternity; we thought...some people became hysterical, mothers were kissing their daughter, they were saying goodby, people were fainting; then all of a sudden, water started to come out, it was not gas, they put us to wash up and clothes and it was like water of life! We were drinking, we were washing. They didn't give us soap, | don't think they had soap, but we're just washing and drinking this water and this was like a miracle. And again they told us to line up and again we were...they told us to dress and we were taken to German doctors and then they examining us and then telling us, asking us if we have some gold hidden. A lot of girls were victims, | was a victim, my sister, my cousin, they were so rough, looking for gold.

Anyhow they finally took us to bound(ph) and they put on the bounds and | think they gave us something to eat, | don't remember exactly but we were so exhausted and so emotionally drained from this experience that we came alive from this

gas chamber, we were just, feel asleep. | was, this was

of our concentration camp. It was located near . | was there not, likely not a long time because it was a place where you didn't do, they starved you to death; there were some women assigned to check the clothes, to sort out the clothes, to...1 forgot to tell you, they also, before they took us to the doctor, they shaved our head and they gave us some kind of clothes, not those worn uniform but same, some kind of clothes. And one day, every day, they woke us up and we had to say to our and also we had like a dog tags. We had a number, so we had to answer to the number. Four o'clock in the morning, three o'clock in the morning, they used to count us, they always use to count us and then we notice that a lot of people became so desperate that they throw themself on this electric wire and they was just burned there. They use to clean up the dead bodies. And one day, they came and they said they are looking for people and we had to go again for the selection, and again | told my sister to straight out herself and me and my sister, my aunt, and the two cousins were very lucky day, they took us to this labor camp called Denawerdkee(ph).

Denawerdkee(ph) was a crazy government place run by the organization and they were building there and we worked also very hard there, but in comparison to or comparison to ghetto, we were in paradise because first of all, we had hot water to wash, the food was much better and we had better condition...better...even we worked very hard...early in the morning we had to line up and they were again counting us and also there we used to unload those big chunks of coal, we used to haul in the potatoes, and we used to work very hard but it was much better for us there.

Q: | forgot to ask one question. What was the relationship between the women there? Was there a sense of solidarity or was it, did you tend to stick together in family and friends 2?

A: We use to stick together. A lot of friendship used to form that even today's survivors, that because they were in the same room, in the same concentration camp: they were in the same truck, they are life-long friends because of a lot of survivors don't have families, they say that she is my step-sister, she is my

sister, she is my ghetto sister; so a lot of friendship, we used to help each other a lot. There were no fight, on the contrary, there was a lot of solidarity, like my aunt became like the tent mother and she used to take care of us, you know, and sometime if she could, she would give a piece of bread to us because she said "I am old, | don't need so much food." So we used to stick a lot together, there was a lot of solidarity. | was later separated from my aunt and my two cousins and | was just with my sister, but | think a very important factor in this, our survival, was because | was with my sister; because when my father used to say as a little girl, "You have to take care of your sister." | took it very seriously and | was afraid to die that, what would happen to my sister. So this was a very important factor.

Q: One more question, before we

A: Sure. Sure.

Q: Was it difficult to communicate sometimes, or did you all speak Polish or Russian or what did you speak?

A: You see, when | came to ghetto, | learned Yiddish, | learned it and | met there a lot of people that in normal times, even they were Jews, | would never come in contact with them; so it was like a very big cultural revelation for me and a very big teaching, said what very big teaching that, so | spoke fluent Yiddish and | spoke fluent, of course, Polish. We didn't use too much Russian but those two languages were prevalent, like with my aunt and my two cousins, my sister we spoke Polish.

But with other people, we spoke Yiddish, we spoke Jewish, so this was the two languages that we used.

[End of Side A, Tape 2] So here we are in Dinawarkee(ph). Also in Dinawarkee(ph) we met a lot of people from Holland that were prisoners and also we met a lot of day workers from Latvia.

Q: Men or women?

A: Men, only men. They use to come to day work and they use to go back. Those people from Holland were very nice to us and sometimes when we were used to do little things for them, they used to give us bread and they were very, very friendly to us. So here we are in Dinawarkee(ph) working very hard of course, then one day we formed a friendship with about five or six girls, and one of this girl was a poetess, and there were two sisters, they were from Lougue(ph), from Poland, and when Lougue(ph) was occupied by the German, they escape to Vienna and like many others they in the ghetto and we formed a very big friendship with them. We were like six girls together; and this poetess was writing poetry.

When after | was liberated, | found out that she never survived, so | was so upset, | was ina in Lipon(ph) when | was told about it, that from memory | sat down and | wrote down those poems. | still have them, and some of them, some of them were so good that | recorded them. | wanted people to know about it, and one of those poems | put to music and the other poem, we were singing to a Russian melody.

Q: Do you remember it?

A: Those poems? One is a song. One of the...

Q: Lily just looked for the text of the song we talked about and will sing it now.

A: The title of the song is Inde , it is written in Yiddish, it was written by Tasha(ph), a very good friend of mine, an inmate of the camp Dinawarkee(ph) who never survived, who never made it and the music is a popular Russian folk song. It was written in in 1944.

The title is Dinawarke(ph) and Dinawarke was on a island. It was around, there was water and forest, and in Dinawarke are Jews from all over the world and they work very hard in the cold weather. They get up very early in the morning when it's still dark and then the time clock is calling them to go to work and they form a column and they go, walk slowly in the cold wind, and they asking themselves, Jews are, how you say , are jailed, for who's sins are they mistreated and jailed? And, the sec...then it goes, the day is over and the sun is long gone and the column is going slowly and they go with tired feet. They are very tired of the long and heavy day and they are moving very slowly, but Jews don't loose you faith because the time will soon come when we will be free, and we will work for ourselves in our own land, our country.

Q:

A: After Dinawarke(ph), we were taken to Stothoff(ph) concentration camp. Also the conditions were very bad, we were separated and me and my sister we were sent to Stienhoff(ph) labor camp and it was already the time that the German army started to loose and after working in this labor camp, we were put into a death march; I'm calling it a death march because for two months we were walking through the Polish country land, it was January and February in 1945, and it was a very big chaos, we use to see people, inmates from a concentration camp going in one direction and then we were going in a different direction. It was just a very, very hard time because people younger girls were falling in the snow and just never getting up. You had to be always in the front because if you were in the back you were shot; and after walking two months, on March 10, we were walking a whole day and a whole night and then in the morning on March 11, we were taken in a very big barn; and we were so exhausted, we were already contacted typhus, that we really didn't care. In this very big barn, we meet other people that were also coming from all over; and as | was sitting there, | was so exhausted that | really felt that my end is near and | just really didn't care and as | looked down through a little opening, | saw the assess(ph) people putting piles of wood around the barn and we were told, not we were told, but there was a rumor going that we will be burned alive because the guards didn't know what to do, the Russians were advancing and they didn't know what to do with us inmate of concentration camp. We were sitting, and we were so exhausted that we really didn't care what they were doing, and then we had the very big commotion and we heard shot and we heard dog barking and horses and then a man started to scream, "We are free, we are free, the Russian are coming." | call this day March 11, 1945, my day of triumph because we triumphed in a very small way by simply surviving. We were so sick that after the big barn, the gates of the big barn, after they were open, people burst out and started to run, but we were so weak that we couldn't even run and on top of everything, there was wet snow around and | didn't have shoes. So as | was standing there and my sister put a piece of the cardboard under me, and we were six friends by this time, we didn't know what to do. Russian soldiers jumped from a tank, a Russian tank, run to a lying assess(ph) guard, took off his shoes, and the assess(ph) guard had very good shoes, put them on and gave me his shoes. So his boots were my savior because, if my, by this time my toes were already black and my legs were all covered up with open wounds because they were froze beaten. Luckily we found a woman that was a Hungarian doctor, and | don't where, but she found a Red Cross band and those six girl and

her, we kind of stuck together and we went over, there was a factory, the place where we were liberated is called Krumall(ph), this is in east Russia; and it was a milk factory, and they took us in...we went to this milk factory, actually we crawled because we were so exhausted and what we saw there, | don't want to see it anymore in my life because hungry people were drinking the creme and the milk and vomiting and just lying down and being so sick that they couldn't even lift a finger, and there were a lot of dead people that were lying there. And we stayed there through the night and in the morning she somehow found a horse and buggy and she heard that there was a Russian field hospital, they will take the survivors in, so we were decided to go there.

On the way, we saw so many Russian soldiers and we were young girls so it was a very dangerous, dangerous way for us to travel. One of the Russian came and took away our horse and gave us another horse and then on the way to the hospital we went to a empty house and we slept there. In the middle of the night the Russian soldiers came and said that they are...they heard that they are very nice...was looking girls sleeping here and they wanted to come in there and we started to scream and yell and luckily this time, | knew very well Russian; so | went to this doctor, in the middle of the night, to the commander of the Russians and | explained to him that we are all full of typhoid and we are going to the Russian hospital, so luckily he put a guard and no Russian soldiers came to disturb us because unfortunately a lot of survivors were rapped by those soldiers. This is one of the tragedies of the war. Finally, when we arrived to this hospital that was a field hospital and we were put in this room, and both me and my sister contracted typhoid; and | was the one that had it in the worst way and the whole time when | was having my nightmares, | was asking for the black grapes that | was reading about just before the German came. And people just were dying, young girls were just dying, lying like flies. One of the young girls that was lying near me, just before she died, she was from Leebough(ph) in the Rigor(ph) and she asked me if | would ever find, her name was Leah, if | ever find her brother and | should tell her that she said goodby to him. My sister recovered sooner and she kind of took over the roll now of the oldest sister and she took care of me and she asked to work in the hospital kitchen so she could stay with me. With me was a very, very slow recovery. | was physically very sick but | was also mentally devastated and after a long, long time they put on a train and they send us to Soapat(ph), it is a town near the Baltic Sea, and they opened the sanatorium there, a lot of people from Poland use to go there because they use to bathe the Baltic Sea. And when we came to this big house, there were many girls there, but | was the worse there, | was spend my days just lying there and looking to the ceiling. There was no way that | had...that | wanted to live. And the doctors told my sister that | am very, very depressed and | had another problem--that my toes were so black that they wanted

to cut my toes off, then | would be like an invalid and my sister said that, "My sister is not herself, she doesn't give you permission to do it," and she begged them and luckily they didn't cut my toes off.

One day my sister was called to the doctor that was in charge, they said that I'm getting worse and worse, something drastic has to be done. So my sister dressed me and took me by force down to the dining area. As | was going the steps, the first thing that | saw was a piano, it was a very big grand piano and something just took me to the piano and | sat down and | started to play. | was playing by ear without notes and when | sat at the piano, it was like all the years moved away and | was again this little happy girl, school girl, and | started to play and the girls came over and we were singing; and something happened to me, | woke up. It was like a shock therapy and | started to get better and better and better and there were, over there, gardens with full with fruit at this time, because | remember it was summer and we use to go and eat this fresh fruit; and | started to compose myself. | still looked terrible, first of all, because of typhoid they cut our hair again, and | didn't gain too much weight but at least there was...everyday | use to come down and play the piano.

Q: How were you treated, or how was the atmosphere in the Russian hospital?

A: In the Russian hospital, there was one nurse maybe for 60 or 70 . | don't think they gave us medicine. | remember we were very very thirsty and we use to beg them for water but they never gave us water, but considering that we had clean bedding and we could wash ourself later, and my sister used to come and wash me and things like this; so they did a very, very good deed for us because actually they saved us.

Q: And at this point you are on and your cousins were not with you?

A: No, the last time that | meet them was in Studhoff (ph) because in Studhoff(ph), they took us...me and my sister out...and we went to worked at the labor camp and they were in Studhoff (ph). It was a very short time before the typhoid epidemic in

. During this epidemic, my aunt Esther passed away and my cousin, her name was also Lila, we use to call...because she was named after my grandmother...that was also the mother of her mother, so she was the big Lila and | was the little Lila; and she, she...I recall...and she was with her sister-in-law, but she never recovered completely and she passed away very shortly after the liberation.

Q: So how long did you stay at the Russian hospital?

A: | cannot exactly tell you the time, because this is something that, | was so sick that | don't remember; but | can only tell you that | was liberated March 11, 1945. It took me a whole year till, from the hospital till the support(ph), till | was given the so-

called clean bill of health and | was...because Vienna was then under the Russian and | was...a Russian citizen: they gave me papers to go back to Vienna.

Q: You wanted to go back to Vienna?

A: | wanted to go back to Vienna, because the last time when | saw my father, was in Kaiser (sp) concentration camp and he was came with the transport from Estonia(ph) and he was going around and asking for his little daughters; and | was at time in Dinawarkee(ph), so when somebody came, there is a Mr. Margules who is looking for his little daughters, so when | heard about it, they use to send us to Kaiser___(ph) to have our teeths pulled, so | thought that, said that, | have a tooth ache. And | went there and | saw my father, in the barracks, there(ph). Whenever | remember my father, | was always seeing him a vigorous young handsome man, so when | saw my father, there was somebody standing there but it was not my father and | recognize him by his voice and by his eyes. So | risk my life and | went to the men's barrack. But because at this time, | was dressed like a man with a jacket and pants, so they didn't recognize me, and since | didn't have hair anyway, | looked like a little boy, young boy, anyhow; and | found him there. Of course, he embraced me and asked me where is my little sister? And this was the time that my little sister had rheumatic fever, was in Dinawarkee(ph) in the crankeovere(ph) and you couldn't be sick, but there are certain things in life that are just in explainable. The doctor, the assess(ph) doctor that was taking of the people in the crankeovere(ph) had a daughter that was the same age as my sister and as | told you, my sister was a very pretty little girl, and he felt sorry for her because she looked like his daughter a lot, so he used to take out medicine from the assessment and give it to her and he didn't tell nobody that he was keeping, he kept her for a couple months; otherwise she would be sent back to the concentration camp and she would never come back. So when my father asked me, how is my sister, | told him, "She is alright." So he says to me, come tomorrow and | want to see her; and he said to me, like this, when we will survive, we have to come to Sole(ph) to the pharmacy. | don't you anything, just two things, first, take care of your sister and second, remember who you are and bring me a good name back. So this stayed with me for the whole, whole time. Next there when | went, he wasn't there already; and my sister of course was very sick so she couldn't...but he never knew it; and this was the last time that | saw my father. But WHEN | was sent from Soapert(ph) to Vienna, | was very anxious to go and see because when, after the liberation, when we got to little Beartta(ph) we were looking for the family. We were two little young girls, all alone, with shaved hair, very slim, with no money and no family. So the first thing we were looking for our father. We never heard about him. We wrote letters, we were, there were all kinds of organizations, we never heard about him; BUT, on our way to Vienna, we were traveling by trains and it was a very dangerous situation because there was, there was actually no laws, and two girls

were very, very easy prey to anybody, but we had, how you say this rupsack(ph), yeh?, on our bed, and you what we're having, black bread, dry bread, because we said when we have bread, we don't need anything else. So people had stockings, people had dresses, we had two those things on our bed with bread; and then when we stopped on the station we use to take a little water and this was what we ate. And when we came to Lougue(ph), we met a lot of Jewish people and we started to talk and over there, also, we met a girl from Vienna--she was older than us--and we became like a trio. And she was a very smart girl, very educated, she was a university student studying medicine and she was one of the students that didn't want to stand...sit, on the left it was standing up. Much more experience that me and my sister. So she was talking to people and she was told that there is a border under we were book(ph) and if it pass the border it will be Russia...If we come to Russia, we will never come back. And as we were standing there and talking to people a girl, that was together with us at concentration camp, pass by and she recognize us; and she says to me "What are you doing there?" So we said to her, "We are going back to Vienna." She said, "Don't go back." But you see, she says, "You cousin's wife is her in Lougue(ph); she is in her brother's house. Why don't you go there and sleep over?" So we all, so she took my older friend because she had also a house, and me and my sister, w went to my cousin- in-law, you know (chuckle), and she of course, she never expected that we will live and she never expected to see us and spent a lot of time together because was at concentration camp and in Dinawarkee(ph); so she treated us very nice, she gave us a bed, she gave us food, we sleep; and in the morning she had a conference with her brother...What to do with us? So they decided that in Lougue(ph) on Sahoniya(ph) 20, there was kibbutz(ph) and they were collecting all this orphans and they was planning to educate them and send them to Israel. So the next day we went there to the 20. When we came there...you want to ask me something?

Q: Do you know who organized these...

A: When | was in Vienna, there were all kinds of Zionist organization and Labor organization and this kibbutz(ph) in Vienna, or in Lourge(ph) on Sahonia(ph) 20 was organized by a Zionist organization. It was called Hanor-Hatti(ph). They were an organization that was a centrist(ph) Zionist organization; and their job was collect the orphans that survived, educate them and smuggle them, literally, to Israel because there was no way that the Jews were permitted, (chuckle) those who survived, were permitted to go their own land Israel.

When we came there, the next morning, and they took us there, so of course...it was a very big problem with me because | was looking like the walking dead. | was very skinny, very sick and when they saw me there, the man that interviewed me

was afraid that | will die any moment and they didn't want to have this traumatize all the young people there. And then, so he sat me down, he started to ask me from where | am? | told him that | am from Vienna and he started me, and what a coincidence in life! She was a boyfriend of the sister of the poetess that wrote this poem that | just sang! He, the sisters name was Tasha.

End of Tape 2.

Tape 3

Q: Interview with Lily Mazur(ph) Margules, conducted by on August 27, 1996 at Lily's home in the Bronx, New York. This is tape three, side A.

A: When he heard that | was together with them and he started to ask me questions and | told him how we were together and | told him that we were very close and | told him that she wrote, she wrote the poems. He felt very sorry for me and he accepted me. And for three or four months, | was, other children had to work, had to do some things in order to support themselves, and he let me just stay in bed and just like a convalesce. And very shortly afterward, | started to compose myself and | started to just to give lecture to other children. Like | was talking about geography, | was talking about histories, so | was trying, in my own way, to be a little usefuls because, after all, other children were working and |, a youngster, were working and | not. And after awhile, | became like a cultural co-director and the thing is only me and my sister were from Vienna. All other children and youngsters there were from Poland, but they accepted us and they, we became good friends and there was no difference. We did (break in tape).

Q: So, you became, almost like a cultural coordinator or leader in the...

A: Yeah, yes, and | was very happy about it because this way | felt useful because not only wanted, they us, to give us shelter, but they wanted us to be educated and they know that our education and every little of knowledge, but there were other people that were teaching us, also. And then one day, there were orders that we are on our way to Israel. It was, it was, it had to be illegal. Because we didn't have papers. So it was organized that we had to wander from one country to another.

So from Lodz, we went to Czechoslovakia, from Poland into Czechoslovakia. In Czechoslovakia we were just a very short time and then they took us with trucks, always with trucks, and always there were young Jewish boys that came from Israel that were helping us organize it. And then we came, we came to the DP camps of Germany, where they put us in Munich, we stayed there a few days ina very big place and then they send us to a very big farm that was taken away from a Nazi. And they organized an agricultural school there because they wanted us to know how to work the land. So we were there in this very big farmhouse. There was separate dormitories for the girls, a separate dormitory for the boys. We were just supervised by one person and there was never any pregnancy, never anything fooling around. Never, on the, never anything, you know, on the contrary, there were one, one weekend there were six marriages. Everybody was lonely. And we taught how to milk the cows, how to fish, how to work in the garden, how to work in the fields. And they had a very big pond full of fish, so when we had this wedding for the six couples, we took the fish out and it was, it was a very relaxing atmosphere. And all of us that were looking like , very big compose and they became different people, but let me just tell you one thing.

The people around us are very much against us and every night there were a boy and girl walking around and guarding. And we also had guard dogs because they couldn't stand it that there was youngsters that survived and they were, that are looking every day better. And so we were, our lives were always in danger.

Q: What was the age range of the young companions?

A: Most of the people were 17, 18, 19, | think, | would say the oldest one must have been in the 20's, but in their appearances, they always, they all looked like 11, 12 year old children. It took a long time, especially on the farm, it was easier because the fresh air and the fresh eggs and the fresh food that we were very hungry, you know. | remember that from time to time, they used to take us to the, to doctors.

And the first time when they took me to the doctor, they put me under a fluoroscope and the doctor asked his assistant, "Is this a boy or a girl?" This is how | looked.

Because | had typhoid and then | had pleurisia(ph) and then | had TB and then | had developed a heart murmur and then | had, my, as | spoke before, | had problem with my legs, so | was just in such a bad shape, that it was a miracle that | compose myself and I'm here today.

Q: Your sister was in a little better shape?

A: My sister was in a little better shape because somehow she recovered, even she had rheumatoid fever when she was a little girl and she was in . She had the lighter form of typhoid and she didn't have complications. With me, | had one complication after another. She still didn't look her age, she still didn't have her height, but somehow she was not so sick like me.

Q: Did you talk about your experiences there?

A: Never. Never. That's completely blocked out. We didn't talk. We only talked about that we'd like to find our parents, we'd like to find our family. A lot of boys and girls, at a very young age, married because they were lonely. Loneliness and loneliness, this was, this was the whole thing. And also, we talked about the future.

We, all of us felt that we were persecuted because we didn't have a, we didn't have a, our own land. If we would have our own land with our own embassy, with our own political, we would never be persecuted for no reason. Because, and a lot of people felt that if they would have blue eyes and blond hair, they would, could survive like Aryans, you know. So there was a lot of, of looking toward the future and a lot of friendship and loneliness and a lot of wanted to find somebody.

Q: So you were in Czechoslovakia and the kibbutz, right?

A: Together with the kibbutz, yeah.

Q: And how long did you stay there and where did you go?

A: No, from Czechoslovakia we were just spending a very short time, a few days, maybe a week. And from there, they brought us to Munich, and then from Munich they brought us to, the farm was Fiersbach(ph) by Mosen(ph). And then we stayed and we composed ourself. And then, after Fiersbach by Mosen, they put us in a DP camp. The name of the DP camp was Leipheim(ph). And this DP camp, we stayed there, | don't remember exactly how long, but it was Christmas night, no, Christmas night, that we were crossing the Alps on our way to Italy. And it must have been already in, | would say, beginning of "47.

Q: Before we go on to the next country, what was the situation in the DP camps?

Were you together with non-Jewish persons?

A: No, no, ever, all the, the DP camp displaced people came, they were only Jewish survivors there, there was the UNRA(ph), that was helping there. We had supervision by the doctors and also, we had rations, you know, you know. And it, we were, we felt very disappointed because we didn't want it to be charity. We didn't want charity cases, we didn't want to be supported by somebody, we want to be self, self-substaining, we wanted to go to school, we wanted to learn some, a profession or something, hand, you know, things like this. So we were very, but we were told that this is just a transition, that we are on our way to Israel, that we were going to Italy and when we, when we come to Italy, we will board a boat and it will take us to our promised land. You know, many times we were taken to movies, they were trying to make our life as pleasant as possible, but it, we lost a lot of self- esteem and also, the stigma to being a displaced person to any thinking young person was very degredating, you know. And we didn't have too much books to read, the library, they, as much as they stocked it to educate us and the kibbutz were having all kinds of workshops and things like this, but still we were hungry for knowledge. So finally, here we are on Christmas night crossing the Alps. | mean, it was a very hard experience and we were crossing as Greeks. And imagine what a coincidence, in the same night my husband, my future husband whom | didn't know, was also crossing the Alps and going to Italy and wanted to emigrate to Israel, | didn't know him, he didn't know me. But before he left, he was in Munich and before he left Munich, his sister-in-law baked him a batch of cookies. And he was being generous and as we were crossing the Alps in the snow at night, he was giving out cookies and | ate one of his cookies without knowing this. When | met him, he told me that the night, and | said to him, "Oh, | ate your cookie". So finally, it was a very arduous journey and, because of the boys that were in kibbutz, were helping the girls, we made it. Because we were sliding, we were sliding from the passages there and finally we came to Italy.

Q: How did you cross? On foot?

A: On foot, we crossed on foot in the middle of the night and we crossed by foot because it was not officially, and we will be caught, even we had, we were told that we are Greeks, you know, but it was an operation, we were just, we were, those people, the guides, knew some passages, but it was very arduous in the middle of the winter crossing the Alps. Anyhow, finally, they brought us to Italy and they brought us to a displaced camp near Milano called Adriatica(ph). We stayed there for awhile and then we were transferred to another camp, displaced camp, near Torrino(ph), Turin(ph), called . And we are settled down there, we lived in barracks and were taking all kinds of courses, you know. But we were still in kibbutz. And then one day they took us to the movies and | was sitting there in the movies and, as | told you, the girls from my kibbutz didn't know Russian because they were from Poland, only me and my sister. So they were showing a Russian movie without subtitles, so | was sitting there and explaining them in Polish what was going on and behind me was sitting a young boy with his friend and this was my husband, my future husband. My, Edward Margules. And he was fascinated, "Who was the girl who was talking Russian?" Because he knew very good Russian and he wanted to meet, so when the lights went up, he saw me and in this times | had two long, very long hair and | still, | think | was wearing braids at this time, looking very young. So he found out where | am and he asked some guys from, to introduce me. And he started to court me. He was in a different kibbutz and | was in a different kibbutz. And when he was courting me, he started to talk to me and he found out that | like opera, that | like ballet, that | like theater, so he would take me to the city of Milan and he would get to La Scala , and this was the first time that | saw La Scala. Twice he took me, once we saw Sampson and Delilah. And then, | saw another opera, | cannot think, I'm a little nervous, | cannot think about it now. And once on our trip, | told him that I'm looking for my father, so he said he heard that in Milano, there is a Jewish center that people, displaced people, are putting on the wall that are looking for this, are looking for this, so we went there before the performance, we came a little earlier and | put two notices. One, that me and my sister are looking for my father and then | had like a, | think | remember, | had a visual memory, | remembered that letters used to come from Argentina and they were always addressed to my father and the return address was like an |. Mazur, this | saw. So | said, you know, | know that | have an uncle in Argentina, so let me put a notice up that | am looking for my uncle. And | didn't remember his first name, | just put |. Mazur. As it happens, my young, my uncle was a younger brother of my father, was living Buenos Aires and he was also looking for survivors of his family. He was a very well-to-do business man who had connections with Italians that lived in Milano and he wrote to these people that he heard that there are displaced persons, maybe you could go to this and this place. And this man, the Italian guy, went there and saw on the wall that two girls are looking for their uncle. He telegraphed him and one day, | got a

telegram in the camp that | should come and there on the Garibaldi(ph) Street and that | should come and look for this. When | went there he was a very nice gentleman, very well-to-do, a very elegant offices and he says that my uncle in Argentina is looking for, and he sent him a telegram and he said that we should go to the Argentine embassy, and he will help us to make the papers. At this time, Jews were not accepted to come to Argentina. So my uncle was so elated that he found two girls and that was, that he went to a very big attorney and gave him a blank check and he said, "| want my nieces to be taken out from Europe and brought over here". And he made us papers as Episcopalians because my name is Leah(ph) on my papers and her name is Rachael(ph), but in the meantime, when we were waiting for the papers, we didn't know, my kibbutz had to go to Israel. And | went to the elders of the kibbutz and | said to him | don't know what to do.

Because in the meantime | was already established and everybody liked me in the kibbutz and | was already having my position, you know, so he says, I've met this guy and he wants to marry me, but he doesn't want to join the kibbutz. He has a different idea, he was a different, but he wants me to stay with him. We were talking back and forth and he said to me, "Look, | know that you are very dedicated to the kibbutz, it's very good, but you have to look for yourself. You are alone with your sister". We didn't know about my uncle then, and if you found a young boy that you like, you have to , you have the obligation to you. Low and behold, there was a big wedding. There was the two kibbutz's and | had to, | knew my husband only three months because or | marry him. He said to me, "But you have to marry him, you cannot just stay and be his girlfriend. This was not done.", he says, "I have the obligation to you, you have to marry him. We'll make you a very big wedding". And it was just a few days before they left and went to Genoa for, to board this very big boat to go to Israel. But they landed in Cypress. Anyhow, there was a very big wedding made in his kibbutz and there were 400 people. | didn't have a dress, my sister didn't have a dress, so my husband gave us money and we went and he bought us the material, and he bought us underwear and shoes, we had nothing. And imagine the present that my kibbutz gave me, a very big plant. | didn't have anything, this was a plant. And then from, it was a very big thing that two survivors are getting married, so from, you know, from UNRA, from they came and they gave us such presents that it is just ridiculous.

Anyhow...

Q: I'd like to ask you just a few questions before we go on. Did you learn Italian and did you have any contact with the population there?

A: | learned Italian very fast, | didn't have too much contact, but every Friday we used to make some kind of, we used to get Russians. And after | got married and was left in Torrina, in , inthis camp. And every, | learned how to bake a cake. We had all kinds of ingredients. And near this displaced persons camp,

there was a bakery and very nice Italian people. And they used to give us permission with those half baked things and put them in the oven. And we used to always admire them, that they used to sit down and make a salad and make all the preparation. And the Italian people were very nice and very friendly to us. And we used to go out and after, | was in Italy for a year, and | spoke Italian, | could befriend myself and | learned this language and | was quite proficient in this language. Also, at this time, after | got married, my husband didn't want to wait for the Russian and we should, the UNRA should support us, so he, there was an organization called ORT(ph), it was a Jewish organization, they had all kinds of courses and one of the courses was designing and sewing on a machine. So he went there and he took the courses and he was looking for work and sometimes he used to be like employed by an Italian who had a store and he needed, and also, he used to, he became a designer there. Me, | went to learn how to write on a typewriter and also a few, some English lessons.

Q: Would you tell us a little bit more about your husband? You said at one point that he had a different idea about kibbutz, where did he come from, what was his story?

A: My husband came from Poland and he is, when the German escaped, he come from a very nice religious family. And they were, they were four brothers and two sisters, there were six children. And from all of them, one brother and one sister survived. All of them perished. His father and his mother perished. His youngest sister, he was the youngest from the six, and the sister that was after him was shot by on his mother's hand when they were, they were being sent to the camps. He comes from a town called Cheritz(ph), but the whole, his life, he lived in Lodz. When the German came to Lodz, he told his older brother that he is not staying with German because once, with the Germans, because once he, very shortly after they occupied Lodz, he was working on the street and he saw two soldiers beating up a father and a son, Jews, and he says, "I am not going to stay here". So, he persuaded his brother, his brother had a fiance, so all three of them, they came to the house and told the parents that they are not staying and they escaped to Russia. And he was in, there are many that he has to tell them again, anyhow, he survived in Russia. And when he, after the war finished, they let him to come to Poland because he was a Polish citizen, so he went to Lodz and found his family and he decided that it's time to go to Israel.

Q: | would like to ask you a personal question, you were still very young and you never really had time to get to know boys and become intimate in a nice, constructive way. Was it difficult for you to shape a trusting, intimate relationship with anybody, or with your husband?

A: With my, my husband was not hard because he was like my benefactor, he was like my savior, he was like my tower of strength. And also, he was very friendly to my sister. So, he, they used to have long discussion, and he liked my sister and he kind of adopted us. So, | had no, | was, when | was in kibbutz, | had a lot of boys that | was friendly with and one boy wanted to marry me, but | didn't like him, so | didn't have this kind of problems, you know, but | was never a teenager. When | married my husband, | was a virgin. | was never a teenager and also, my father told me | have to bring him a good name and | knew what he meant. This was a good name. Many years ago, there were girls that you marry and the girls that you sleep with, and | was the one that you had to marry. | promised my father you marry, so this is, this is how it was. My father, so this is how the situation was. You see, the amazing thing with this Hebrew kibbutz, supervised by a few people, and there were never any hanky-panky, any sleeping around before the marriage. The moral, the, we were not prudes, but there was, just, | don't know if we were doing this for our parents or we were just brought up this way, but the moral fiber is very strong. And a boy, maybe he was stole a kiss, it was a big thing, you know.

Q: Did you have similar ideas about the future, about maybe having children or not, or what the dreams and aspirations...

A: Well, first of all, | was very determined to go to Israel and start a new life. And | was very, | was believing that this is where | have to go. And when | got married, my husband didn't want to have any children. He said after the war is, the world is very hostile to us and he doesn't want to, he, to bring up children, they should go through what he went through and | went through and my sister went through. So he was very determined not to have children. And so, when | was in the DP camp, we didn't talk about it and | didn't, | felt it was the right way, | wanted to bring, if | have a child, | want to bring the child in a certain style, give him a certain, him or her, a certain education, so it was not a discussion. And my sister was very pretty and a very popular girl and she had many, many boy that wanted to marry her. As a matter of fact, the day that | was married, there was a boy that had family from Belgium and they sent somebody, they should bring him to Belgium and he said that he wanted to take her to Belgium.

[End of side A of Tape 3]

Q: Interview with Lily Mazur Margules on August 27, 1996. This is tape three, side B.

A: But, | was so attached to her and | said, "How can you go? You are not married and where will you go?" So, he went alone and for the longest time my sister was quite hurt by me, by my decision, but | spoke to my husband, we decided we are

the caretakers of her so she was always with us. And then one day, as | told you, the telegram came and we went to this man and, this Italian businessman, and a very short time later we got the visa and we got the tickets to go by boat. And we went second class, not, you know, it was second class and third class, it was not first class, you know, so we went by, and we were told that we are not to speak Polish, we are not to speak, we are not to speak Jewish, we are Episcopalian, we are, you know, Italian and that's all. My uncle sent us a hundred and twenty dollars because this is how much the visa costs and when we went to take out the visa, we had another friend who spoke very good Italian, very fluent, better than we. And he told us we are displaced people, so why should we pay so much money, it was a lot of money, so they gave us the visa gratis, so we had one hundred and twenty dollars. And this was the only money that we had. So, here we embarked after the long voyage, it was 21 days from Italy to Argentina. | was, with my sister, we were very sick because even until today, | don't travel well and | had seasickness and even in the beginning on the plane. Anyhow, we arrived to Argentina. And before we arrived we stopped in Uruguay and a friend of my uncle came there and he went, came on the boat and just to see how we are. And he says, "Listen, if you come to Argentina", he said to my husband, "you have to work. Your uncle is a very generous man, but remember". Well, of course, we took it, we understood, we came and my uncle and he had, he had a daughter and a son and his wife and a lot, maybe 30, 40 people came to see us. Often he took us and he had a very nice big house and he had a very big party for us. And when we came, we were dressed like two little ladies, with hats, with gloves, and because the little money that my husband made working, he spent everything for our wardrobe, so he was very pleasant surprised. Because he saw that we are not the wild people that they show, you know, from the displaced person, but we are two little ladies with good manners who knew how to eat, who knew how to be, behave, so he was very, made us a very big party. And for a whole month, we stayed in his house.

Q: Did you know at all what to expect from yet another country, Argentina?

A: No, |, when we were going by boat, we met some people that were from Argentina and they were coming from Italy and they were speaking to us in Spanish. And | said to my husband, "This is a language that | will never learn".

This is | said, "| give up". This is the language | will never learn. Because it sounded to me so strange. But, when we, three months after we, let me slow down, three months after we stayed in Argentina, | bought a Polish/Spanish dictionary and | knew how to communicate myself. | started to speak, | used to buy all kinds of magazines because there are no public libraries in Buenos Aires, so | used to buy magazines and papers and | learned myself. There are no night schools. And | had to learn because, | had Spanish, because after, | had to, to buy things, to communicate. After a month, my uncle found us an apartment and he, he

was a tremendous help. Also my cousin, one of my cousins, was married already and his wife was very, very nice to us. They really didn't know what to do with us.

And my uncle was treating us, not like, not like a brother's children, but like his own children. We found warmth and compassion and he was very happy that he found two little ladies, so he, many times he used to take us and introduce us to his very rich friends and he was very proud of us. With my cousin, the female, we couldn't make too much friendship because she became very jealous of us, her father all of a sudden has two more daughters, you know. And he's paying so much attention to us. So she was just tolerating us. But, the generosity of my uncle is unbelievable. He used to take me to the , this is the where he used to take us all over. On the third day after my husband was in Buenos Aires, he asked my uncle to take him and he started to work. And he gave him the hundred and twenty dollars back. My uncle couldn't believe it, what kind of people are we?

Imagine, | was on the boat and | wanted to drink and we had to pay, my husband said, "| have no money. This is your uncle's money". So, he, he was very impressed with my husband. He made a very good impression with him. And he took us, very short time that my husband was working and he started to learn the language and because he was a designer, it helped him a lot. And a very short time, after working and working and working, he went into manufacturing and he opened his own place and was, used to work very, very, very hard. Fourteen, sixteen hours a day. In Buenos Aires, there was a very big prosperity now, it was in 1948, we came to Buenos Aires in June, 1948. It was post-war, they needed a lot of clothing and he started to work for himself.

Q: Do you remember the first time, or one of the first times, when you felt a sense of, a relative sense of maybe normalcy or safety or peace again?

A: | think when | came to my uncle's house and he made this big party. And | saw his kindness, | saw his caring. | finally felt that | have, that | came to a safe place like the boat, find a place, how you?

Q: A harbor?

A: A harbor. | found a safe harbor. And all my years in Argentina, every holidays, the Jewish holidays, the high holidays, Passover, | always knew that | have a place where to go. And | always knew that | have a family. And he was, my uncle was very proud of my father and was telling us things that we didn't even know about him. You know? So this was the first time that | felt safe. Yes, but, let me point out to you, it was not a easy decision for me and my husband to come to Argentina.

Because we were very determined to go to Israel. And | wrote to my uncle that | really am appreciate his concern in Italy, but | would like, and he wrote to us that, "You come to Argentina, you must be in very poor shape. You go, you find your health, you learn something and then you go to Israel". And this is how we decided, because we were very reluctant to, not to go to Israel. We were very determined to go to our own land. And it felt that we are kind of betraying our ideals. We were very idealistic. We trade our ideals and it took a long time, a lot of letters, until we decided to go to and accept his idea. It was not easy for us.

Q: So you became a strong supporter of the Zionist movement?

A: Very strong, very strong support. | felt that | belonged to Israel, that this is my land and | have to live there. And my husband was even more.

Q: One last question, you said earlier that in your childhood, religion wasn't so important. Did it become more important over time or did you lose, did you lose faith in God because of what happened or...

A: Many times, when | was in the ghetto suffering a lot, | used to think, "I don't think there is God because if there would be God, something like this wouldn't happen to my little sister and, you know". So | was very doubtful that there is God. They were very hard times and when | was in concentration camp, especially during the death march, when | was really giving up, | really had no desire to live. Once, during the death march, we stopped on a very big farm and we were so exhausted that we fell asleep without eating and | was lying near my sister. And we were lying there between this hay and in the middle of the night, | said to my sister, "You know what, I'm not going farther. My, | cannot, my legs don't respond to me, | cannot go any more," | said, "We will just stay here in this hay and maybe the whole column will leave us and then we will see, we will just die here". And then all of a sudden in the morning, the German guard came and he started to poke and poke and poke and he found us camouflaged there, so | fell to his feet and | started to beg him, "Shoot me, | don't want to live anymore. | cannot go, I'm too exhausted". My sister was crying and he said to me, he picked me up and he says to me, "You stupid, Yuda(ph)," he said to me, . And he said to me, "You have to march and you have to go with me. | am not leaving you here and | am not shooting you here". And he dragged me to the column. So there were a lot desperation, a lot of, a lot of losing faith and a lot of asking why. And this, and, even when | was in better shape, religion was not very important to me. And let me tell you, now, many times when | speak to the children, they ask me all kinds of questions and just recently one of the students asked me if | believe in God. And when | speak to the children | tell them the truth, and children are like little animals, they feel that when you are telling them the truth, when you are just telling them tall stories, so | said to him, "Look," he was a little boy, he said, "After what happened to you, do you still believe in God?" | said, "Look, | will tell you the truth. There were times when | didn't believe, but as of now, | don't say that God is a white man with a long beard, sits on kind of throne. But | feel there is a higher power and many times when | have problems, | raise my head and | talk to God. So | do believe in God, despite of

everything". | cannot explain why it happened to so many people and so many people perished and so many people didn't survive this, | cannot, don't ask me why it happened. But | do believe in God.

Q: Tell us a little bit more about the life and Buenos Aires. And your husband worked very hard?

A: Worked very hard. My sister, because my mother was a dentist, my sister went, she had very little education, but she wanted to do something in this profession, so she enrolled in a school for dental mechanics. And she was living with us. So | was alone in the house. And | was trying the best | can to shop, to clean, to do everything, | was just a house frau. And my husband was such to prosper a lot.

And my cousin had two little boys and | was always playing with them. And then | heard that they were talking behind my back, there must be something wrong with me that | don't have children. And they said, all right, after what she went through, is not. And this didn't bother me, but | wanted very much to have a child because | always loved children and | wanted to have at least one child and my husband didn't want to. Anyhow, | was working on him, working on him, and finally, in October 27, "49, | had a little boy. | named him after my father, David. And he was a very little precious boy, but | had a lot of problems with him. He was a very sick child. | think all the misery what | went through went into this child because he was a beautiful, well formed child, but he was such a sickly child that there was a time that | had six doctors in my house and they didn't know what to do with him.

Anyhow, | was lucky, | found a very nice pediatrician, Dr. Bernoche(ph), and he was giving him vitamin shots and he started to develop. Never a big eater, never that, but very good looking. When | used to walk with him on the street, people used to

, used to stop me, "What a beautiful child, is this a boy or a girl?" Then one day my husband said to me, "Look, one child is not good, we have to have another one". So then there was another boy, his name is Michael and he was born October 8, 1953. Both children were born on October, this is the very time, a good time because this is springtime in Buenos Aires and it's easier to have a child during the summer, than for the winter. The climate is there quite humid, you know, so it was a good time to have the children. Here | was with two little boys.

Q: Did you ever think you would leave your new found home again?

A: Never. But my husband had a sister and a brother that emigrated to New York and they wouldn't let him be. They said, they, "From the whole family nobody survived, just us three, we have to be together". Despite that my whole family was in Buenos Aires. So when he used to get letters from them and he used to say that we have to go to the Embassy and there was always a quota and you could wait a long time, so he said, "We have to register". | used to say, "But my family is here, my family is here". And he was a very good, loving husband and he didn't want to

disturb me. Then my sister met a boy and they got married and she settled down and she also started to have family, my sister has two sons and a daughter. My sister at the present time has nine grandchildren and she is in Buenos Aires, Argentina. And we were very, very close, but my husband said to me, "You don't have any obligation to your sister now". You know, | didn't want to hear about it.

And then when my children started to be older and my oldest son started to attend school, my husband went and without my knowledge, a few years ago, and registered us in the American embassy. And we got notices after notices that our quota came up and we have to register and | was postponing, kept postponing, kept postponing. And my husband started to work on our friends, we had a lot of friends. My house was always open. And my husband is a very good hearted person, very, he likes people around, very hospitable, so sometimes for a Sunday dinner, without my knowledge, he would bring me three or four young men that were not married, the bachelors that he met someplace, had no meal and there | was cooking. And after awhile, we became prosperous and | had a girl in the house, a maid sleeping that, because we lived in a very big house, | had two small children and | was never a big hero. Oh, if somebody was coughing on the other street, | had a cold. | mean, | had colds and | had a lot of health problems and this was, a lot of work in the house and it was more primitive. It was every day you had to wash a big patio and a big, you know what is a patio, and a very, in front of the house was, the street had to be washed with water and soap, so it was a lot of work, so | had a girl in the house. And so |, I, | had, in emergency and | had to put that together, dinner, but | had help. And then, so he started to work on our friends and they used to come to me, "You have the opportunity for your children, for the future, to go". And one day | had a long talk with my sister and | said to her, "Look, | am going to American, the golden land, the land of opportunity, and | want you to promise me that you will come after me, and | am opening up the door for you, you have", by this time she had two little boys, "And so you will come to me". And on October 30, 1956, after a jet trip, we came here. And it was a very big cultural shock to me.

Q: What was the expectation, what did you expect? You said the land of golden opportunity, but what was, did you have any...

A: You see, in Buenos Aires | missed a lot, there was no adult education, there was no libraries, | mean, in all the free, | wanted for my whole life, when | was a little girl, the most popular book was Gone With The Wind. It was translated in Polish and in 1939, before the war, | could never get the book because this was such a popular book in the library that my name didn't come up. So when I, when | was in Buenos Aires, | wanted to read the book and | went, there was no library, | went and the book was so expensive that | couldn't afford to buy this book, so | was kind of frustrated. And then | was told they have public libraries, there is public education if you are a good student, you get a stipend and you can go even to college without paying. So all those things were very important to me. So this is, | wasn't looking for material things, | was looking more for cultural things, for a good future for my children because since my parents gave me a base, such a good education, such a curiosity for life, | wanted to reciprocate and give my children just a little bit of it.

And | saw the limited, the limited opportunities in Buenos Aires. In Buenos Aires there are two classes, very poor and very rich. And in order to go to high school, youhavetopay,

Q: So did it turn out that easy in America?

A: No, in America was very hard for me. First of all, when | left Buenos Aires, | lived in a beautiful house with a garden, with a patio, with a girl in the house, so | was kind of all ready spoiled. Here | came and the apartment that my brother-in-law rented to me was in a private house. As much as | was trying to fix it up a little bit with plants, with things, it was not . Then | had to learn another language, English, again. And not, it was a real, | mean | bought a Spanish, now Spanish/English dictionary, it was a real chore. And then | had, my oldest son was seven and the younger was three, | took him to school and, okay, after a very short time he learned English, but it was a big deal from him, you know. Here in Buenos Aires he was playing the piano all ready and he was a good student. And here he had to start from the beginning. The younger one was three years old, so this was not a problem for him. Very soon, you know, he, we, | used to take him to the park and he had little friends. But not for older, my older one, it was a very cultural shock. So, | felt very bad about it, after a short time, he adjust himself, but it was a shock for him. And for me, to live in a house like this, not to have help and learn another language, and to be separated from my family. When the holidays came, | had to go to my sister-in-law, it was a different story.

Q: Tell me, or tell us, a little bit more about the relationship then, with the new family or with the...

A: There was a different relationship, that's what | was, | don't elaborate more, but it was a different relationship. In Buenos Aires, | was in my venue, | was, my uncle was on my cultural level, he knew, if | would go and tell him that | wanted to buy this book, he would buy me. | would never do it. So it was a different story. Here it was, when we came, we first spoke Spanish, you know. | was told | shouldn't speak Spanish, | should learn English right away. Because if | would speak Spanish, | would be a second class citizen. You know. So there was a reality, there was a very cold reality, for a whole year | was going out and crying my eyes out and when my sister found out, she wrote me a letter, | should come right back.

It was, for a couple of years it was not talk for her coming here, but for me going back. And it was a very big shock for my husband because in Buenos Aires he was his own man, he was the boss. Here he had to, without the language, to work for somebody. And it was very, very, very hard for him. Very hard. Sometimes he used to work on two jobs. After a very short time, | realize that | have to help, if | wanted to bring my children in a certain , | had to help.

Q: So what did you do, did you continue some kind of education?

A: Well, when my children got a little older, | decided that | have to do something.

And | found out that there is a very bid need for x-ray technician at this time. It was late 50's, beginning of 60's, and this would be a good field. So | had a friend of mine who had a garage and he was a very good mechanic, had his own business and he was near Hospital on Jerome(ph) Avenue. And he had a lot of doctors that were coming from the x-ray department, fixing cars because a lot of them, he was a very good mechanic for foreign cars and they had foreign cars. So they asked this, he asked them, how can | approach this that | wanted to work in x-ray? So they sent him, told him | should come to the chief of the department. So | got dressed and | went to the chief of the department and | spoke to him and | said | will be very much interested in, to go to school and be x- ray technician. He said, "This is a very good field because we need a lot of x-ray technician". And he send me to somebody who was in charge in Mount Sinai(ph) Hospital, of the x-ray school. And | went to her and she was very sympathetic to me and | told her that | don't have a high school diploma, and she said to me that if | promise her that after six months, | give her a high school equivalency, | can attend the school. So there | was, going to Mount Sinai. | was living there near Hospital, and every day when my children came from school, 3:00, |

had to leave them until 5:30, 6:00 until my husband came. And from 4:00 until 10:00 | had school in Mount Sinai. Then | used to come back and then | also had to learn the equivalency, so it was quite hectic. Okay, | made the equivalency and then | finished x-ray technician and my husband was very unhappy that | am going and I'm looking for a profession because the European men are very proud people and it was, it was very upsetting to him, he cannot support his family in a certain style. But, | saw the man was working two jobs and when | was going, walking on the street with my two little boys, a slice of pizza was twenty-five cents with a coke and | had to think twice if |, if | couldn't buy a slice of pizza.

End of Tape 3.

Tape 4

Q: Interview with Lily Mazur Margules conducted by on August 27, 1996. This is tape four, side A.

A: For me, | just had to buy for them, you know. He gave me a certain amount of money and | felt bad about it and | felt bad for him, that he, you know. So it was, it was quite a problem for me to come and say that | want to go to school, it took quite an adjustment of him, of his part.

Q: Did you feel that at that time, late 50's, Americans that you met wanted to know about the Holocaust experience or didn't know anything, did you ever talk about it?

A: | never talked about it. | never talked about it. The only time that | talked, | had a lot of friends that were survivors, when we used to, and we used to meet a lot. We used to entertain each other, you know, | had a very good social life. We cling to each other because we had no families, so like, friends were families. Very few of them had families. And so we cling to each other. Whenever we came together, we used to talk about all kinds of things, we used to talk politics and what movie did you saw, but we always ended with our, what we went through. This one was talking about it, and this was the end. And so, so it was in us. And another thing, | used to have a lot of nightmares. | used to wake up and screaming, yelling, and | was, always my husband used to wake me up. So in my heart, | was always living with it. It was never abandoned me. And |, and everything was written in blood and tears inside of me. But | never wanted to talk about it and to burden my children about it. So between ourselves, the survivors, we used to share our experiences and this was always the end of our conversation. But we never spoke to anybody else because a lot of my friends had a number and they felt very bad when some of them, they used to go on the bus and people used to talk about the number. | didn't have a number because in this concentration camp where | was, they didn't put a number, | just had a number, and | am so sorry that the first thing after | was liberated in Fluma(ph), | threw this number away into the snow. | should have kept it as a memento, all right, some things. But we never, you see, we were always considered second class citizen. We all spoke with an accent and we all, and we always, a lot of people were very jealous of us, because nobody from our people went . Nobody asked from help and a mother used to say to a child, "A stomach that is not made from glass. If you go to somebody's house, and even if you are hungry, you refuse because you fill your stomach the way | fill your stomach". And we never, we were very proud people. When we, we worked very hard, we were very ambitious that our children should have a very good education, we wanted the best for them, and we never wanted any charity. Very few, maybe in the beginning when the first came, they took something from the Jewish organization, some help. But right away, they wanted to stand our own feet.

Without the language, some of them with not even a good education, they were very ambitious and they very, they wanted very much to build a future and a lot of them are very successful. And also, | had this, always the idea, that charity begins at home. So | always remembered that my mother used to say, "If you meet somebody on the street and he or she puts a hand in front of you, you have to share it, you have to put something in". And this was staying with all my life and this is how | brought my children up.

Q: Did you feel sometimes that it was difficult for you to be a mother because you wanted to be, maybe give your children, overprotective, or was it, do you think that the experiences...

A: | know that | was a very overprotective mother. | know that | wanted to compensate my children, when they used to ask me, "Where is my grandma?

Where is my grandpa?" | wanted, | didn't, | told them they are not here with us, that they are in heaven, you know, but | wanted to overcompensate, there was nothing too good for my children. And many times, | spoil them too much. | did spoil them, yes, but this is before, because | said them, "| am a mother, you know, and | am an aunt and (noises)". Because my children didn't have an aunt from my side here.

You know, so, yes, yes.

Q: When did your children begin to ask, did they ever ask you?

A: My children always were asking about their grandmother, you know, and grandfather. But the first time, my oldest son, when he went to school, he started to learn about the Holocaust and he knew that | was a survivor. But he never talked about it with me and he didn't want it, to know about it. He couldn't place his mother in this situation because he started to read a lot and he knew about a lot.

My youngest son found out about it the day that he decided, he already finished college, and he decided to go, he found himself a job in Los Angeles and he decided to go to Los Angeles. And he, it was the last night when he was living here, and he was all packed and the next day we had to take him to the airport.

And he said to me, "Ma", it was already, my husband was already sleeping, and he said to me, "Ma, | have to ask you something. | know that you are a survivor, but you never talk about it. Why don't you want to tell me, | am a big boy". And | said, "Michael, why | never wanted to tell, | didn't want to burden you". He said to me, "Ma, | am a big boy, you have to tell me. | want to share it with you, especially now that | am leaving the house". And | was very nervous because when he went to college | knew, you know, that it was different, he went to Boston College for four years, but he was coming, here he was going to the other side of, to the Pacific Ocean, to the other side of the United States, and he's going all alone, my baby is leaving me. | was very upset. So we were sitting right here by this table and | started to tell him. And he was sitting and we were talking until 3:00 in the morning.

And when we finished talking, | told him, he kissed me and he hugged me and he said, "| am very grateful that you shared it with me". And this is how he found out.

And with my oldest son, later on, | started to tell him, but he is very sensitive, he didn't want, he didn't want to know too much. He didn't want to know too much, no.

Q: Did it bother you sometimes that also, would you have liked people to wanting to know more, other people?

A: You see, when we were young, the survivors, we were so busy bringing up the children, making up a living, acquiring some kind of education that it stayed with us.

But then, | joined an organization, American Survivor, American Holocaust Survivors. And what was bothering me the most, that before the holidays, the high holidays, the Jewish people go to the cemetery and | couldn't go. | belonged to a Jewish Center and |, the first thing when | started to make money, | went there and the memorial tablets, | went to make two tablets, for my mother and my father. And it had to cost a certain cent of money and | paid them out. And every year, when there is, how they say, the day they, the memorial services, the day that they passed away, that is a prayer for the dead that is said, so every year, you put candles on and | used, so | knew what the date for my mother, but for my father | didn't know, so | had a date, | took and arbitrary date for the liquidation of the Vilna(ph) ghetto, so |, it is just around the high holidays, so this is when I, when | mourn my father. So | put, | put the lights on and then | tell my son to say a prayer, you know. And this is, because | want my children to know that they have grandparents. And also, the memorial, memorial candles are lit in the Jewish Center. So, it's, this is how | observe. But, when, when | joined this organization, they have once a year, a very big commemorative services. And this is done in a very good taste. And so | come, | go there and | go there like to the cemetery. And this is the time that | remember, recite in mind, all my family that perished and all, my parents and, you know, my cousins and all of them. Because from my mother's side, there were six children, nobody survived. There were also, children's children, grandchildren, nobody survived. So my mother's, the Lipkovich(ph) family, there is nobody survived. So they are part of the six . So this is when | come and say, and pay honor to their memory. And every year I'm going there and this is kind of like, that like | go to the cemetery. But, you see, when those people formed their society, American Holocaust Survivors, and Volsa(ph) Ghetto Holocaust Survivors, they kind of open the door for the survivors to talk. And this is when the survivors became a little older. And had a little time to share their experiences, to talk about it. To feel an obligation that they, that to tell the world what happened to them, to make sure it shouldn't happen again. And because they became more mature and became better educated and had a little more time to give, were not so busy with making a living and with little children and the diapers and the problems.

So they start, they formed a society and they woke up and they had all kinds of

obligations that they felt that they have to fulfill. Especially when it became known that there are people that negate that the Holocaust every existed. And that they want to rewrite history. So we felt that this is our time for us to speak up. That we are really, by silence, committing a very big injustice to those who cannot speak.

Q: So when was that, about, when you decided that now you will speak out?

A: It was, | would say, in the middle of the 70's. Yes, it was in the middle of the 70's. And we had, we had all kinds of get-togethers. We went to Washington and took cans of documents, milk cans of documents were brought from Warsaw ghetto and it was a cornerstone put for the Holocaust Museum in, on the Mall. Then we had, we had all kinds of speakers and | remember that one of the speakers, we were sitting in the Memorial Park, she was a professor of Judaic at the University of Miami and she said, and she was talking and she says, "| wanted to ask you survivors a question. How many of you have children in college, have children that finished college?" And you know, from all those people that are sitting, the thousands and thousands, there was not one person. She says, "We are amazing people because we are trying to give our children what we missed. And we are overprotective, we overindulged them, but we are giving them the best that we can". And if you talk today to the survivors, very few of them that didn't have children, professors, journalists, anchors(ph), doctors, | mean, creme de la creme.

Q: | would like to ask you one question. You have learned so many languages, to some degree, that it is quite amazing. Did it help you, did it make you feel proud or did it intimidate you to some degree because you could never really learn a language perfectly? Do you know what | mean?

A: | know what you mean. It didn't make me proud because | learned these languages because of the circumstances during my life. But, when | came to the United States and | made it my business to learn English and the first book that | learned was Gone With The Wind, with Polish and English dictionary, imagine.

And after | read it first, | read it again. And this is what, my favorite books. And | started to read a lot and | started to educate myself a lot. But, | liked, | always liked to read, so | acquired a lot of language, | started to read the books of Edna Fairburg(ph) and, you know, so I, so she had acquainted me what was going in the United States and it was, and because of reading | learned a lot. But, because | spoke with an accent, | was very intimidated. Because even if | said something, because | spoke with an accent, | was looked like, ah, what does she know? So, | was very intimidated and | didn't, | was kind of, not sure of myself. But then, when Henry Kissinger became the Secretary of State and | heard him speak this heavy German accent, | said to myself, "What's going on here?" | said, "If he is so knowledgeable and he is speaking in this accent, | am going to speak". And | started to speak. And this is what happened to me. So | know that many times, when | have to to the people, that | am not educated. They think that because | speak with an accent, | don't know what I'm talking about. But if | have to do with people that have a certain amount of culture, they say, "Oh, you have a very nice accent. Oh, | like this accent. Oh, it's charming". You know, so, it has become, it has become like a way of life. And now, | just don't pay too much attention. When | have to say something, | say it. If 1 say that | don't know anything about it, | don't.

But many times, | listen to Jeopardy and . And | see that | have so many answers, that | know so many answers, that even college students, sometimes | know this answer and they don't know. And | don't say that | know everything and I'm not going to Jeopardy, but | see myself, that speaking without an accent is not so important. This is, | came to this conclusion.

Q: You mentioned that you had nightmares?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you still have nightmares?

A: Oh, | still have a lot of nightmares. Many times | wake up and | hear the dogs barking and I'm always running and | always see the SS people with their uniforms, running after me. And they will, the nightmares are just a way of life. This is something that | think | will always have it. There are certain sounds that | hear, the barking and, all the yelling, they are, this is, this is stays with me, that is never, | don't think it will never go away.

Q: Did you always try to deal with it yourself, or did you also to try to go to therapists or...

A: No, | don't believe in therapy. | am, |, maybe you say that | am old-fashioned, but | feel that if you have a problem, you have somebody close to you, it doesn't even have to be family, a good friend, you can talk it over. Just by talking about it, just by exchange, exchange, you know, letting it out, don't keep it inside, it is better because what can a therapist who wasn't there, tell me what to do? Oh, how can he, nobody can understand unless you were there, what was taken away from me.

You know, what | was left, the wound that | have, and | am not talking about physical wound, I'm talking about emotional wound. This is something, | am, something when | am talking about, | feel that, | talk in the third person, this is something unreal, that it didn't happen to me. And then other thing, whenever | have to talk about it, | am sick already a long time before, and | am sick already a long time after. So many times, you have to let it go and let the sleeping go to sleep. But on the other hand, when | talk to the children in school, | say to them, that if you see that injustice is being done, and you are silent, you're just as guilty as

the perpetrator. So when you see there is something wrong, you have to speak up about it. So this is the reason that | am sitting and talking to you.

Q: The nightmares are one kind of memory, but what are memories that you choose, that you decide to go back to? Can you give us one or two...

A: The memories of my happy childhood, of my parents, of my mother in a white coat, standing in her office, and me sitting there and pretending that | am her helper, this is my mother. Of my father, that when he would come and bring us chocolate and say, "My proud little girls". Or he would have would say to him what are, you know, of my father taking him by his hand, when my mother told him he should take me to the library, of my father taking me to a children's concert, of my father when | didn't know something and | would go to him and say to him, what this word means, you know. Of the garden security, of my aunt, that was my second mother, of my school, of my teachers. | have very fun, good teachers that were so dedicated. Of the respect that we had for the teachers. Of the uniforms that we had. You know, of the ski vacation that we went. Of the summer vacation when we were walking, this, most of the people that | handled before | was so badly hurt. Of my little friends.

Q: Do you have mementos, do you have pictures from your earlier life?

A: | just have a few pictures that | found in Buenos Aires that were sent by my father to his brother. Very few of them. And very few mementos because | remember that before we left our house and went to the ghetto, we were afraid to take the pictures and then we were destroying them so there was nothing there left.

And also, my friend to went to the Lithuania Museum and found some articles that | wrote on diplomas or papers or essay that | wrote, this, he brought me just about two years ago when he came from . But | am, | don't have, nothing, | have nothing.

Q: How do you feel about Germany and Germans today?

A: As | told you before, | spoke a very good German and | wrote German and | loved the German literature. And | memorized a lot of poems and | remember

, you know, and | remember the ghetto poems, the, we writed, | don't

. And also, | cannot forget and | will never forgive. | will never, never forgive. And what is the worst part of it is negation. Because the German people stood by and let one ignoramus, house painter, to turn the whole world around and to, they stood by when the Jews were made scapegoat, for no reason. To stand by and not to say anything and participate in all this brutality, this master plan, this scientific master plan. Where were the doctors, the scientists, the culture, the artists, the culture of people that should stay and say, "Why? Why did these people

do?" You see, Jews were not allowed to have property, so if they had a little gold, if they had a little silver, it was the only security they had, could carry from one land to the other. My father couldn't buy a pharmacy because he was a Jew. | mean, so this, and we were, my, | will never forgive them. They're from such a smart culture, good human being, they made us subhuman, who doesn't , who felt so bad he couldn't take care of his family. All of a sudden who had doubted that he is a human being in the first place. | can never forgive it. And | will never forget it.

Q: At one time it was your dream to go to Israel.

A: Yes.

Q: And you went to the United States and to Argentina instead, but did you ever go to Israel?

A: Yes, | went to Israel. | have friends that were, | was in kibbutz in Israel and | am in touch with them and | go and visit Israel. And my oldest son was in, spent a year in Israel. And | always felt very guilty that | didn't go there and settle. That due to the circumstances, because my firm belief it still today that we survivors have to build a future in our own land. So | feel very guilty about it and | belong to an organization that supports Israel and |, financially, | help more than | can, but |, and I'm very interested. My husband, also, about the future and the survival of the sovereign state of Israel. This is, for me, very, very important.

Q: How does your husband feel about you speaking about your experience?

A: My husband feels very bad about it. He is very upset because he, before | speak | am upset and afterwards. So he, he says to me that | am, this is like, | am overdoing it, that this is like a self-torture and he would rather not, not | should do it.

But this is one, you know, in a marriage you have many disagreement, and this is one of the disagreement because | feel that | have to do it. So he is not happy about it.

[End of Side A of Tape 4]

Q: Interview with Lily Mazur Margules. This is tape four, side B. | think | would just like to ask you one last question. Is there anything, when you look back on your life now, is there anything that you would like to say to finish this interview? Any message, any thought that you have to conclude?

A: | would like to conclude with, with the thought that the people who will listen to me, should learn on the mistakes that were done in the past. And should make sure that innocent people shouldn't have to go through what me and my family and my friends went through because of one dictator who's name | don't want to even pronounce. Who should speak up when injustice is done, shouldn't be silent. |

don't want to hear that the world was silent when so much injustice was done. And | feel that the Holocaust was a unique experience in the history of mankind. You cannot compare it with anything that was done, you cannot compare it what was done in, recently, in Bosnia. This is a completely different story, that through religion they are fighting between themself. One's, they're doing, the Croates are doing something to this and the are doing to them. It was done to us.

We were humiliated, we were dehumanized and we had, we had no means to defend ourself. To speak up. To say, to ask why. We had no weapons, we had no country, we had no means. And those people that persecuted us, have to pay for their sins. And please don't be silent, get involved when injustice is done. And make sure that something like this will never, never, never happen again. Thank you.

Q: Thank you.

Conclusion of interview.