Document

SYLVIA KOLSKI March 29, 1990

Q: Would you tell us your name and where and when you were born?

A: My name is Sylvia Kolski. I was born Sylvia Karmaska, and I lived in Tarcezyn in Poland.

Q: Were you known by any other name?

A: Uh... Well I was known for Sylvia in America, and in Paris Cecile, and in Poland as we were hiding . That's all my names.

Q: One of them was actually a boy's name.

A: Yes. _ because this place where we hiding was no woman, and if somebody hears my Cywia they would look for the woman so they called me :

Q: And when were you born?

A: I was born 1925, September 15.

Q: What do you remember about your life before the war?

A: I was a little girl in a small town, going to school, coming from school, no boys, just homework and playing. My father was a wealthy man. My man was...if I remember my mother was never feeling well, so she has a special woman taking care of...for the children, governess, and for her. And we had a maid at home. It was a small town. Our town had only about 2,000 people. Uh...My father was...uh...taking care of the synagogue and 3 meaning riches. If someone had a store and maked a living, he was rich. My father had _ you know and we...I think he was wealthy, and we were very happy. For the summer we went to camps. I had three brothers. The first after me was Moshe, the second was Abraham, and the third was Fishel. There was younger, rich, but one year... We were a happy family.

My mother had 5 sisters and | brother. The brother was a very rich man. He didn't live too long in this town but he moved to Warsaw. Warsaw was like 32 kilometers from Tarezyn, and with a bus it's 30 minutes away. So we very often went. My mother...like for a dress or for a hat or for something and always in Warsaw. And I had a happy life til 1939, til the war broked out. And in school, they told us we have to wear masks because they were afraid for the gas. They said they will supply, you know, the...uh...with gas so I came home from school and the war broke out in September the Sth, 39," and my life was shattered right away because my...we were afraid they will call my father to the army. My father was only 39 years old. So my father was a very religious man. To the mill what he possessed he had two partners. One partner which was like a relative to us and they started in school when they

"beginning of the Second World War September 1, 1939 were young boys. My grandmother died when she was 28 years old. My father was 10 years old. And he had a stepmother like from a book, not a good one. So he was troubling and...uh...his friend was in the same position also without a mother. So they start like to doing business about 10, 11 years. And they remained after 60 years partners like they're just relatives, and with the kids...with the children we were also like relatives til today. So my father with this partner went to Warsaw to this Rabbi. What the Rabbi said if he will be going to the army or should he stay in Tarczyn or should he go to Warsaw. So the Rabbi said that he wouldn't go to the army. The Polish army doesn't need him. He's too old, 39 years old. But he should come to Warsaw. So my father came back the same day and when I came home I...I saw that the maids are taking everything out from the closets and packing in sacks, in big, long sacks. So I said, "What's this?" So my mother took me aside and she said, "Eat your supper." I still remember what the supper was. Fish, fried fish. And..uh..we're going to Warsaw. And right away the men came. He took all the possessions from the room, from our house and we had our own horses through the mill, you know, so everything like...was like a...we called this a Wagen, you know, like you see in America when the...the...the Mexico, you know, and the horses, the big Wagens, and we took every...I mean they took everything on the Wagen and we went to Warsaw. Our family and my father's partner's family. My father stood still yet in Tarczyn, but my mother and the children and the maid and we came to Warsaw. It was a hectic night. The kids all were crying. We were upset, and what we heard was boom, boom, boom...the artillery and the shooting. So when we came to Warsaw we came to a beautiful apartment, friends of mine parents were still....on the summer house because it was summer in Europe and we...this was , and we took their apartment, but we didn't remain too long in this apartment because the Polish army moved in...in the building with the...you know, so we were afraid. So my mother called her brother if we could come to him. So my brothers and myself and my mother came to my uncle,___---23 in Warsaw. Two days later my father arrived and we been together. And that day the war started and there was fires and it was hell. But we still together. Not only us because then was bombed this...uh...uh....house on the Granichna. So my father's partner came over with his family together to us, and we stood together til the German occuped Warsaw. So the first day we wanted to go back to Tarczyn because in ghetto...it wasn't yet a ghetto, but we were like, you know, just us, and we didn't have too much food because we left everything behind and what we had we left in the Granichna and it was bombed after two days. But my father went to a baker who bought from our business flour, and he gave us a whole, like 50 pounds, a 100 pounds of flour, and my father brought it to the...my uncle and my mother and my aunt baked hallahs, bread, so we had to eat. But was a hard time with water. We didn't have water.

So we put on...on...for the children...for us...like for me, it was like a game you know. We were small. We didn't understand so much...on a pot, a belt to carry the water and we went to the Visla (ph) for the water. It was like a half hour maybe, a hour walk but til we were loaded with water, was heavy the pot, you know, to carry. That's the way we brought the water. Till my father one day said to us...this was also September, like 15 because before 15...15 was my birthday...and I remember sitting with my mother and with everybody there from hiding from the bombs and I said, "That's my birthday. I maybe get killed from the bombs." And in the same day my father was...went to the Rabbi with my two brothers on the . He was...by the Rabbi...what he believed in this Rabbi, and a bomb went in...in this shelter and the whole building came down and my father start to scream to this Rabbi, "Is this how you so holy that I am getting killed, my children and everybody?" So the Rabbi said, "Don't worry. You'll be alive and you will still see your grandchildren." And all of a sudden like a window was opening in the ground, and my father was out from the...from the, you know, bombed out house, from the shrapnels, and he pulled out my brothers, the two brothers. They were injured, the face and scratches and he took and then he slipped out the Rabbi too and they came to us in the evening and the Rabbi...and we couldn't stay in my uncle's apartment anymore because he lived in the third floor so we went to stay in a store in the same building.

They had a dairy store with people. They didn't have children, two old people. So they agreed to let in this Rabbi because he needed a room by himself. He was a very holy man.

And we also stood there. Not only us, but practically the whole building of people were standing like sardines because it was low for bombs so we were standing there. And then when the war was over...the war I mean the 39 the German occupied Poland, so my father...somebody came already and said our mill was bombed and we have nothing to go there. So my father started to the Rabbi to scream, "Where are you? What I am going to do.

Everything is bombed?" And the Rabbi said, "Believe me. Not you....uh...not you mill is...is bombed." In the same town was my uncle. My mother's brother was a very rich man. He had a mill in the same neighborhood what my father and actually my uncle's mill was bombed and burned and ours was partly burned but not completely. So my mother wasn't able to go.

We didn't had any communication to go back to Tarczyn. So we start to walk. Myself, my father and mine...one of mine brothers, and my father's partner and his son. I will name him Mr. Leshno and another two people. It was a distant relative of ours. He also went with his son to Tarezyn. 32 kilometers. We maked it in a few hours. We get to come home. But we came near to the town. The smell was terrible. From fire, from bodies, from sweat. It was very hot. And we saw as we came to the town...uh...I could...everybody could see our house, and it was like the edge burned the house and in behind was our mill. So we came back to the house. I opened the closet. It was still eggs and butter and cheese from the night what we didn't finished our supper and what everything and all sugar and jam and everything because the war was going we didn't suspect that we will have to run away. So that was good for us, that we had right away everything. Also a cousin of mine moved in to our apartment because her house was burned and she actually saved this house because...with water...was no firemen at the time...so with water, with buckets of water she saved this fire shouldn't go farther. And we were again happy to stay. Right? As a child you ask me what I remember. I remember I was afraid to sleep in my bed because after all...uh...the two, three weeks I didn't sleep in a bed. I was always sitting or lying on the floor, no bed. So I went to mine aunt, mine father's sister to sleep. She had a restaurant in town, and she had a girl, my cousin, mine age. And we like each other very much. I said I would sleep with my cousin Hilda, and I don't want to sleep at home. So my mother said, "Fine." Oh...and at the time my mother came also to the town back. And I ran around to my aunt's to see if everybody is alive, and the town had a square and a lot of Germans in it. And I was very much afraid and people were running up to the Germans with a cigarette to sell bread or something and I slept this night by my aunt. In the morning about 7 o'clock, my father came in and talked something to my aunt and I was very anxious to know what happened. And they didn't want to tell me...a child...what happened during the night. That the German with the Poles come into our house and they took out my cousin, the woman's husband who let...who saved this house from the fire with my father with mine father's partner, Mr. Leshno. They took him on the attic. They wanted money. So my father said he has no money. He has the mill. And it's after the war and I don't have money. And the German...was few Germans, not only one...each one took a person like the three of them and start to beat them and start to scream they should run away.

So my father was afraid to go to his room but on the attic a tailor was living there, without children, a nice old Jewish poor people. So he went into them and he sat til the morning there. But he was afraid to tell my mother that he's alive. And it was the first night in the town. So, of course, my mother was very upset in the morning and my father came to my aunt to tell her what's what...that from now on he will remain there too. It didn't took too long. It took about maybe 2 weeks. My father decided he's going to be free. He cannot live like this so he decided...he and my cousin and mine father's partner, Mr. Leshno will go to Russia. First, they go to Warsaw, and later will go to Russia to Bialystok (ph). They said goodbye to us and my mother was crying. She screamed, "I am already a widow. How do you leave me?" But he left the money and a lot of people owe us money also. So we remained in the town with the maid. The maid had no place where to go. It was a Jewish woman. She raised us and she was like a family with us, and we stood there. And my father disappeared. We didn't know what and where and what. Occasionally we got... mean my mother got...just had the news. My mother said, Oh, your father's fine and everything is alright. Maybe we'll some day be able to join him." So...uh...we stood together in this Tarezyn, and nothing specially, you know. We lived without... just with the hope that we will join our father and maybe the Germans will let us live in peace. (Sigh) Then one day what I remember, my mother said, "We're out of money and I have to go to Warsaw to Mr. Flynn.

Mr. Flynn was a Polish German. That means he was a German by birth, but he lived in Poland. And he had...uh....we call it here commissioned bakery, and he owned us a lot of money so maybe he could give us some money. So my mother left and my younger brother got very sick and I didn't know what to do. I was like the woman of the house so I called a neighbor. She was a nurse. And she give him some medication and make us not cry and the maid was very good to us. And my mother went to my uncle and from my uncle they took a car and they went to this bakery. And on the way, as they was driving on this...I don't know if they went by druska we call this with two horses and a wagon, you know, like a rickshaw, another rickshaw met them but like back and forth and there was my father with partner and with my cousin and my...my father's partner said, "I think I see Frymet." Frymet was my mother's name. So they stopped the rickshaws and my father when he...they arrived with my...with Leshno, they...they really don't have money, so they went right away to this Flynn to this...uh...man. And my mother went to him, not knowing, so actually they meet on the...met on the street. What a coincidence. So this was a happiest day for us. My brother's very sick and here I have my father back and my mother. Instead we're supposed to go to my father, they came back to us because in Russia they give us...they get them a few days to make their mind or they want to stay with them and they go to Sibiria or other places in Russia or they're going back. So it was not only for my father but all the people was like a mixup. Nobody wants to know...nobody knowed where they're going. This was my recollection as a little girl what I remembered. And...uh...my father came back and he was more calmly, wasn't afraid anymore, and he went in back to the mill and they started to do business again. And this...uh...German Pole from the bakery gave him money. I mean he payed him what little by little, and we had a comfortable life. I wouldn't say no. Again I didn't have any worry as a child. School wasn't any more for us. So my parents hired...uh... a tutor and 5, 6 children been together and we learned whatever. Wasn't much, but was enough to...to go along, you know. And then it started to be very bad and my mother was afraid that my father should go to Warsaw to collect the money for the...so I volunteered and I went with Mr. Leshno once to Warsaw. I carried the money and one day a German came over, not to me, to Mr. Leshno and he took him away to work. And I didn't know what to do with me, but I know what where to go. So I went to my aunt, my mother's...uh...brother. And I start to cry. They took him away and... So they said, "It's nothing. They catch people to work. He will be soon there." And good enough he came in the night. He finished the work what they told him to do and he came and we came back to Tarczyn. This was my last time I went. I didn't want to go anymore. And we stood in this Tarczyn and life went on til it was very bad.

And my uncle...they start to talk about the ghetto in Warsaw, so my uncle decide that he wants to come to live back in Tarezyn because he was from Tarczyn because he got so rich so he went to live in...in Warsaw. So in the meantime they make also from Tarczyn...uh...a ghetto...that all the Jews have to be in one side. Uh...Everybody in the town liked my father because by him it was no different. Jew, Christian. He didn't eat alone. He ate if everybody had food. He didn't sit down to the table to the seder. That was...you asked me what I remember. | just remember we were 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock still by the table, sleeping children because he run to the houses to see if this people had food. If not he carried from our home for them. As a little girl I remember many times before a holiday I was very ____ like children in school. My father makes like a nut in a handkerchief. There probably was money, no doubt about it, and go here and here. Don't say from who. Just give it. So a Christian person who was...uh...couldn't say he's a friend, a person from the town came to my father and he says, "Mr. Karmaski, Too bad they're a making a ghetto, the son of a bitches." Excuse me. "But can we change with apartments. I know you have a clean house and I have small children and I would like to change with you because he was living in the side what the German give us. And we changed with him. So my uncle, with his family...he had two sons and a wife and a maid...so they came to live with us. And it was also, as a child it was happy for me. It was harmless you know, a lot of children and we had our curfew. We couldn't go out like in the evening, but it was nice. We were...we lived nicely in this Tarezyn til they decide that it's not good. Everybody has to go to Warsaw ghetto. Our small town had 350 families. So being in ghetto in Tarczyn a lot of people got...the poor got poorer, and the rich ones survived. They ate, but the money didn't come in so it was very very bad. (Sigh) So we packed our possessions, what we could. I, as the older daughter, I was sent to Warsaw.

(Clearing Throat) Excuse me. I was sent to Warsaw, also on a Wagen, with mine friend, that's mean my father's partner. They still were partners, and we went to my uncle so my uncle went back too his apartment in Warsaw and being a few days with my uncle, he...uh ...uh... rent a room for us by a family. This was Carmaliska 15. So I stood there with our maid and with my two brothers and my mother and my father came the last day when they had to go out from Tarczyn. So we lived in ghetto already. And from the whole Poland, from everybody from each each town, everybody came into...to Warsaw. And Warsaw was already a ghetto. Was a small ghetto and a big ghetto. Carmaliska 15 belonged to the big ghetto. Uh...My father received every couple weeks, couple weeks I couldn't say, once a month, once in 2 months, and from time to time we knew from which time to...from the mill a salary. The good thing was because we had a partner also, beside Mr. Leshno. A Christian.

He was in the government, in the Polish government, a big shot. A president, but not a president like you have...uh...President Bush or something, but he was something. I really can't explain it what that he was a big shot. When the war came out in 1939, he called my father and he said, "Listen, Karmaski, I am going to leave you. I am going to America with my wife. His name was President...President Shelpelski. And he left. After the war, when I came to America I met his wife. She was living in Long Island. And she said to me, "Please, Mrs. Karmaski...(she didn't know my married name)..."1 want you to tell my neighbors from where I am coming and who I was in Poland because I don't know if they believe me.

She...her husband died, and she was living very poor. Matter of fact, I bought her Chanel 5, and she hugged me and it was very happy. When we went to the ghetto, this President...this President Shelpelski left a daughter, a married daughter from the 5th marriage. This was the second of his...in Poland. Her husband was a major. The daughter's husband was a major in the Polish army, and she was by herself in the mill. Of course, she had workers and she...and a boy friend. The boy friend was a terrible anti-Semite. She was afraid for him, for Bollick that she's helping us. But Richard, the engineer, was a very nice guy. I met him many times and he gave me money when I was hiding. And I thank to the mill with his wife because nobody from from the Poles would take us in without money and without promises that after the war, they will be big shots or rich. (Sigh) Anyway...so that was our support from them.

Coming back to the Warsaw ghetto, as we received money from them we saw it's getting tighter and tighter and tighter. Of course, I couldn't say that I felt anything, but as a child I wasn't going to say that I wanted to knew much secrets from the...from the growing up because they always shhhh shhhhh not to tell the children. But from day after day you pick up some words. Right? Uh...My father decided...he was afraid to go to court. It was a court on Leshno which was divided in half. Half was standing in the Christian side and half in the ghetto. The woman who brought us in the money came to court. My father had a piece of paper. It wasn't really....he ordered himself that he has a court this and this day. The German didn't know what it is when he willed in through the revealing doors. He went in. He met this woman, and she gave him the money. She got paid for it. She took right away up her percentage. And then my father shared with my...with his partner. So we had a few dollars to live. There weren't too hungry. We weren't too well off, but we were okay. One day my...my uncle came to us and he said it's not good. I heard this rumors and this rumors. You have a few dollars. I have a few dollars. Let's do something. So from the Rabbi what my father was believing so much, he had acquainting man. This man before the war he wasn't a farmer but he had cows in Warsaw, and for the sake of the cows he selled the mill and he lived. So this man talked in my father to buy cows, and they could buy them and they transport them...Polish people transport them to the ghetto. So my father and my father's partner and my uncle and another few Jews shared it. It was very expensive. And they had like a dozen cows. Analefski Street. It was a like from a big store made...uh...a place for the cows and they hired a couple, the man and the wife what they milked, you know... Is this word they call? milked...uh...cows. And the Sth you had to give the donations for the poor, and for the opens, the milk and then the rest you could sell. So from this we lived. My father woke up 5 o'clock. The minute he could work, you know, free to...it's safe to go, so he went to this...to see how many liters or quarts what we call here...the milk, the cows were giving and all the families lived. Not to make money, but we lived. Okay. And then L..my mother said that father is very tired and maybe he shouldn't go and we children we should go because the minute when you walked out from the door to the street it was unbelievable to see. Young people and old people like flies, deaths, deaths, deaths. Fallen people, hunger people, on the street. So my father didn't go but us children we went. Me and my brothers and from the partner the son went and whatever was left we were carrying the milk in special cans, you know, to the apartment and from the apartment we had our places what we bought milk. We got paid from people say they pay another time the 20 cents or the 50 cents what it was container of milk. I lived there went there. And I think we lived I wouldn't a happy life, but we lived. Uh...We had...mine mother had a sister living in Sobolif near Lublin and another sister who lived in Warsaw also in ghetto got very poor. She didn't have any money. So they decide to shift her to this other aunt to Sobolif so she went with her sons there. And we stood in ...1n Warsaw ghetto and many times people came with regards from their were __ very religious town so we could get from time to time a kosher meat, what they smuggled in from...not from this town, from Sobolif or from Otvorz (ph), and they came to the ghetto and they had their clients or sometimes we had meat also which was a holiday at this time. And this was til 1942. 1942 my cousin came, my father's sister's daughter from a small town. I don't know the town. I don't remember. (clearing throat) That...uh...her brother-in-law and other relatives were kidnapped. She called this kidnapped. And she escaped. She doesn't how and she still doesn't know how she came to Warsaw ghetto, and we should have known that they killing Jews. And in the same time they said that the Jews will live til July 22. And it start to be like, you know, not easy. Not easy! And then it started that every Jew should work. I never worked. I was a child. So my father had a lot of connections. He came home and he said, "I think I managed something." And what my father did started it. So they brought...they bribed somebody that I went into work. My work was by the Germans...it's called a shop. This was Tebin's shop. There was slavery, and they worked for the Germans, for the army, of course. Tailors and hat makers, a shop. A big shop. For me it was like, I never saw this. My work was...uh...sitting by a table and it was in a bags a lot of hats and the elastic in front by the heads were sewed down from the tailors, but there and there was a string, you know, so I had to clean up the thread and cut with the scissor. I had a scissor. It's not big work. It was...only if they would let us work because every minute a German came in and hit us or took us out. Some he took out never came back. Some they took out they raped.

So we were always afraid. I...my mother worked also in the same building. I worked on the fifth floor. She worked on the second floor. She stamped leather pieces. Little pieces what they...to suitcases or what you're wearing on the back the shoulder, you know. What you call this?

Q: Shoulder patch.

A: So this kind of... My bro...my father also worked by the same thing and the brother too. I had by the time already two brothers, not three because one was selected. It was...they came and they took him out. They took out everybody. And they took him. He was hiding in one of the hiding place in the apartment. They took him out to the Umschlag. Uh...As they were working one day they start to give us Kenncards. This was like a piece of paper which opens and said that you allowed to live...in German not in Polish. Everything was in German. I didn't know what the line is for it. They took us out to make a line so, of course, I stood in the line. So I was scared. I received a card like this. I didn't know what it is. And many people...the one who didn't receive, they told go in the right or in the left. Actually in the left.

I was to the right. You know, as I am talking, I could... And after they said, "Let us go back to work." And we saw it's missing a lot of people from these for...but we didn't know for what. We didn't know if they're going to live or we going to live. But we were the lucky one.

The same day my father received a card like this. My mother wasn't working this day because they make the come in the nighttime for work. It was a 24-hour work. So my father received a card like this and I received a card. But then we knew it already what it is. That it's very important. Okay? So we the lucky one. And the same time they maked me...not to come during the day but to come...that's how they mixed up people...to come in the night to work. So I went like 4:30, 5:00. Most...I wanted to go earlier because you were more safe in the place where you walk because during the day you don't see anybody in the street and this...the apartments were looted. But the time I wasn't living anymore Karmiliska 15, but we were told into_Novolitki (ph) 42. This was also a friend of my father's who went to live with his daughter and he give us up his apartment. So we lived there and my father's partner too.

It was like four families living in one big apartment. We couldn't...we didn't have many beds.

I was sleeping with my mother. My brothers were sleeping on the floor. I think my father also on the couch or something. It doesn't matter, but it wasn't already what it was. And we still had the maid. I mean she was like in the family. It was no more maid, but like a family.

And then one day they came and they took her away with my cousin. And we went to work and by work they said that we're going to live... mean people just gossip...til July 22. And was even a song about it.

Q: Do you remember it?

A: The song...if I remember it. Was something from my long home I could get out some more, but very little. Very little. As I say til this point, til 1 went to work, I...L...childish...you know, I didn't give too much thought about it. I'm young and I didn't think about it. I didn't realize that there could be such a terrible thing done to people. Uh...So finally it came, this day.

That's when we...that we heard...it was all over the whole ghetto. Papers pasted out that all the Jews had to come to one spot and this was this spot. It was three shops in the whole ghetto. One shop...(clearing throat)...one shop was Tebins, the biggest one. The other one was...uh...I just remembered. Fo Broczes (ph) I don't...I just remembered it. Schultz. Schultz was working the same work what we. So the...the...the rumors were that Schultz and Tebins were going to go together. And the Broczes (ph) which was in the small ghetto, they only work by Broezes (ph). They will remain. But it...it was just rumors, you know. (Sigh) So we were living....this was already a good life. Hungry, working, and no future. Uh...But when these signs on the streets were that everybody has to come in one place, my mother didn't have a card. So I took out this card and I said, "Mommy, this is your card and you go with daddy and you take both children"...because my brother is very small. My age I was 14 I guess. I was already big. I was very tall and thin. They wouldn't let me through anyway. I don't consider any more a child. So you go with this brothers. And we were sure we're going to work. And I said to my mother, "You write Mommy. You will write me." And hardly my mother accept this Kenncard, but she did accept. Until the middle of 18 we still could work together in the lines. Was six people in the line, end of it, and the line it was really not to prescribe...not to describe how long it was. It was a terrible way down. The heat was maybe a 150. Nobody had a drink. The ____ on the back, the shoulder bags...everybody had a bag.

I had a few slices of bread and I think an onion in it and my clothes and like a girl, you know, a pair of shoes. I also...when my house was looted in...uh...Karmiska 15, I went back with the maid so I find my mother's beautiful pair of snake shoes and I always liked them so I took the shoes and I took them to mine so I was holding the shoes too. As we was marching I saw in the line my aunt and my uncle. That's the rich one. And her two sons. And another aunt, my mother's sister. And we couldn't talk, but we waved. With our eyes we make like "God knows where we're going." but still going. We know we going to the Umschlagplatz because this was Miller 18, and around the streets there. I was also...on the sixth I was with my friend, Henry Leshno, my cousin and his brother and another two girls. I didn't know them. I know them only from the shop. And this girl was probably mine age, but she had her mother and her father. And I was really jealous because all three had cards and I didn't had a card. I think this was my first time when I start to be jealous of anybody. And thank God this girl survived and her parents survived. Not the war, but to come back. And we were in the line. Because I didn't had a card, and my uncle and my aunt didn't had a card, so we went to the...with them, and I separate from my mother in case...and no words to talk, but crying and crying and write and don't worry. Ma, your health you know, and you will survive and we'll survive this. As a child, you know, I could feel I didn't have too much words to...to comfort her, and she and my father went different place because they had the cards. My mother was struggling with me. She wants me to get a card, but I was very much against it. I felt young and strong. And they went away. As we came to Moranofska (ph), with us all and we stood and I said to this Henry...he was like a brother to me...I said, "Henry, we don't know where we are. We here with the aunt with this, but why can't we still go to be with my mother...with our parents." He had a second mother, but very good woman and like I start... was...I'm a little older. He's alive. We're very good friends. And I start to agitate him, "Let's go. Let's go." And we went. Me...and I make his brother also to come, and the three of us start to look for my parents. And as we're looking on the Miligas we knew a lot of people and they said, "Oh, you're father is looking for you." In the same time my father start looking for us because they saw it's...it's not true. Everybody could still still be together. Was a terrible hot day. Humid. Hot. Without a little water. Finally, we find my father. My father said, "Thank God, we find you." And we came to Miller 22. There is the place where my mother sat on the floor by the house and about an hour or so even my uncle come with his wife because we saw we're not separate. We could be all together and we find a lot of people. But this time my father...not only my father, but everybody...was starting to look to buy this Kenncardes .

So, of course, my father was starting to look for me for one. Couldn't get! But my mother said, They don't let parents with children through. Just the opposite. Let me give back to Cywia the card. And you go with Cywia and I stay behind with my family, with the brothers, with the sisters. She still had her brother. And with her friends. And if it's possible you come with us or send for us. People went out...uh...with on the wagons as dead people, shoveled in...in the casket you know and went out so we thought maybe this way. A lot of people had bunkers in the houses and they went in. They didn't give us too much time, as by 5 o'clock they already...the Germans come with the "Halt. Halt. Halt. Halt. Halt...and the machine guns went boom, boom, boom a whole day. (Big Sigh) And they start to organize the line, who's going to go left, who's going to go right. You never knew what the left line is or the right line is. Okay? So here it goes so quick. My father start to say goodbye and in the middle he fainted by saying goodbye to my mother. And I stay with the Kin card in the hand and I don't know what to do, and what to say. My mother's hand with me I should put down this...uh...how do you call it?

Q: Knapsack.

A: Knapsack. Right. Knapsack. You want to know that she give me her knapsack, not mine, hers, with all her dresses. There were a few pieces of bread and an onion inside. An onion, everybody had an onion because they said an onion is good for you. And she took mine. As my father was fainting, my aunt catched a piece of paper. Water...was no water, and start to, you know, revive him, and I said to my mother, "Go hide in this place." And she kissed me and it's no more words. What can words say? And I am walking with my father out and Leshno with his son and the rest of the people who wanted without Kenncard is go...could also stay in the line. It doesn't matter if you have a Kenncard or not. Everybody was to make a line and to go. So this Leshno's brother...I handled him the picture frame. He was always 6 foot, strong like a ox, was will us in the line. They took him away this way and us in this way. We didn't know where we going. But what I witnessed before was a man before my line, before my face. He had on a enormous big knapsack. His name was Wassermann. He worked with me by Tebins, not cutting...this was the woman's work. He was sewing the hats.

He was a very wealthy man before the war, but in the war he got poor and then got he he went into work to Tebins and he had a little girl about 3 years old. He had her every day by work and if the Germans came in, myself and Dr. Bussow...I was working, also cutting. Dr.

Bussow was a nice lady. Her husband was a physician, children doctor...took this little girl in this box and covered her with the heads she should survive the, you know, the Germans what they came in to watch us work. He had this little girl in the knapsack. He gave her some pills to sleep and not to move and they took out this little girl and killed her in my eyes. I should say in our eyes we saw it. And they took him also away beating. So I was happy in my memory that my mother didn't see this and didn't go through because she had small children.

My brothers were small. So we went this way and they went this way and sure enough...of course, when I passed I showed the card and they let me through. I was very tall on my age and very thin. And this Dr. Bossow said to me, "You have two bright eyebrows and the German don't like this." So she took me in aside as we were walking, still in the shop, and she plucked out mine eye brows, and I was screaming because it was hurting. Come out.

They didn't go out (laugh) the places. Okay. So I was fortunate that they took me back. I didn't mention that as we went to the Umschlag Plaza place, somebody fell in this line, and the German run and right away it's like a pyramid. One fell, other falls, other falls. So they shoot in to this pyramid and like before me. Maybe I would fell too if I didn't see where I am approaching, you know, what I am approaching to go on. They shoot everybody was the whole pyramid of people, young, old, whoever fell. So when we went back, everybody was already tired, in tears, and this street looks terrible. Very bad. Possessions from people, hanging people from balconies what the Germans shoot them because they want to escape.

(Sigh) We didn't know where we're going. But they took us to the shop back. So we were lying a whole night on the floor. Mostly were men, not many woman. And I started this girl what I was jealous on her...with her mother and father. And in my heart I felt I never see my mother again so I really was very jealous. And there crying the whole night and my heart was breaking seeing for the first time in my life my father's crying, and he felt very uncomfortable like that he left my mother, like I felt this like maybe he exchanged me for her life. So.

Q: We have to stop here. The tape is about to run out. We're going to change it. Okay. If you'll just hold on a second.

End of Tape #1 Tape #2

Q: Okay. You can go ahead now. You were saying you that you felt that your father had exchanged you for your mother.

A: Yal. I felt like this, but he really didn't. He wasn't this person that he lived with the hope that he would still be able to do something because people came back from this...from this miller.

But other hope was that we knewed where she is. She was not Miller 18, but Miller 22, and she stood, uh...together with my uncle and with my aunt and with friends and with the sisters from Mr. Leshno and his wife and children so...and I was only my father and Leshno with his son. And the same day my cousin come, my uncle's son. He went through this with my uncle and with my aunt and the other son, but they took them, the three of them away and he received the Kenncard so he came to the...to the shop so we heard from him some news. This was...uh...the same day...he came a day later, but the same day he went to the selection. So we knew they stayed together so our hope was maybe we could so something. So the night was a terrible grieve...so in a terrible grieve. My heart was breaking. How my father was crying, and all these men. Like I mentioned there was a lot of men, more than woman and I was still considering myself a child there. And so in the morning we got breakfast. The breakfast was watered like a soup but like water but off in the line standing for the line for the soup, this day wasn't a working day, but like after a funeral day you know. So we got the soup standing in the line and my father saw somebody so he went over and he said in the hope so he said to my father, "Give me your picture...give me your wife's picture which I have the picture still. He wrote it down. My mother's name and my two brothers name. He went back and forth. He was the foreman from Tebins. Through him I went into work in the beginning. My father paid but like a bribe, you know, and he took the picture went into the Umschlagplatz in the Miller and he couldn't find my mother. That was his response. The money he didn't give back, but he give back the picture, but he couldn't find. Okay? So was no hope that they will come. The day went on and this was already July 23. July 24 we start to work. You know the work has to be done. Uh...I was still by the same work with the Kennkarte. They make me work at night time and my father worked in the day. We came to the same apartment on the...it was like ___. From _ excuse me. From ____ to the ___.

And this was our apartment. There what my father obtained with his friend. He went to live with his daughter. I don't think he's alive at the time already, but it was too big apartment so we were there...my father and myself, Leshno and his son, and my cousin and another two people with two children. He worked for the Germans. He...uh...he wasn't a shoemaker. He was sewing the leather of the shoes. I don't know in English this word what this... Before you make the shoes...a shoe, you know, the leather has to be sewn together so then the shoemaker takes the shoes to make. Anyway he worked for the Germans, but he didn't have a place where to live so he lived with us because...he moved in by himself. Apartment was empty so. So then we agreed that he should have a room and we lived together. And day and night we went to work. We came back. We didn't have any food. We lived only what they gave us, but my father had a few gold pieces sewn in his shoes or on the suit and I also had before we went like the everybody had some money because we didn't go...maybe we knew it inside, but nobody want to say. We were sure we're going to work for the Germans, maybe to Germany, maybe by ____ summertime or whatever you know. So we had a few dollars. I mean slotas not dollars in case we have to buy something, a piece of bread or to bribe somebody. The bribe was terrible in Poland at this time between the Jews also. So as a child I was wearing stockings but I didn't wear a belt, but elastic. So two eleastic together and in between was money sewn around. That was mine possession. So little by little we came over to this because we didn't have anything to live on it. And that's how we lived til 1943. The rumors were that the ghetto wouldn't stay too long, that they will finish us. And in between they opened the Umschlagplatz. No more transportations. I mean they liquidated the ghetto little by little. The same thing and they opened the ghetto and they heard we were free from work, that the ghetto was open, the miller. We run, myself, my father, everybody, the whole shop run there to look for relatives. We went straight to Miller 22 because we know we left there my mother. We came...on the street somebody screamed, "Uncle Mendel." My father's name was Mendel. This was my aunt's little boy, 8...7...8 years old. He was together with everybody, with my mother, with the brother in the bunker. So we asked him, "Where is everybody?" We didn't have to go further. He gave us all the report. He told us what happened. Two woman in the building had a fight. I don't know all the words. And the Germans heard because they were snooping around with the dogs. So they came in and they find the place that there is a bunker and they were hiding there and they start to scream that they're going to put a tear bomb in the ducts. They should come out so they will be free to work and live. Otherwise, they will be shot. So everybody went down. This little boy didn't go out. He sit and he survived. My brother, the youngster, didn't go out, but my mother didn't want to leave, that she should come down. She wouldn't leave without him. So the Germans stayed til he came down. That's the version from this little cousin of mine. And then when he came down they left and took them all to the train. This was day before our New Year, exactly September 9, 42. So we know so much about it. But everybody said, "Let's go." He's a child. Maybe he doesn't know. You have to touch it to believe it. So we came to this house and when they saw me...a few people..."Oh, my God, you're such a pretty child. Your mother showed us pictures from you. She was crying all the day. Poor woman if she wouldn't go out." So we knew it already that's...that's the story what the little boy told is true. As we were there the German were smart, so they start a new selection and they start to catch people from the street because they had all amount that they wanted, card or no card. So we start to...to hide again. But luckily, to tell you the truth I don't know how, I...we came...my father, myself and the rest of us back to the shop. We didn't go back to the apartment. We were afraid that maybe they will take us away. We wanted to spend as much as we could in the shop. It wasn't safe, but better than at home. You know I worked in the night time. I...I fell asleep during the day. I couldn't sit in the shop. They wouldn't let me in. So I stood mostly in the apartment. And this same time my father met an acquaintance and he said, "You know, I am looking for you. Your son come to me from Miller 22"...he was also from the Miller 22..."and he said, "David, maybe you have a better...better bunker where I could hide with my brother and my mother. I have the money. I will give you." And he told this my father.

And I said, "In my bunker is just the amount of people what we could go in, so I couldn't take him." So my father was very abusive that he couldn't...that my brother was saved with mother. But he said, "Please believe me. I couldn't do it." This man was a very selfish man and a very rich man. So my father said, "And what you doing now." "I have no place where to go." So my father said, "It's okay. Come to my house." And he with his wife and child came to live together in our house. I give even away my bed to his wife because she was a very sick woman. She didn't look like Jewish at all with a little girl 3 years old. This woman survived the war thanks to me. Many days I didn't go to the shop. I was afraid and my work was in the night. So I was hiding under my covers and I said, "I don't care if I live or not.

What do I have to lose. My mother is not here. My father is working. I can't talk to him. And I have...I am always hungry. I don't know how to cook and I have nothing to cook. So what's the use of living." So he said and I was already 16 or 17 years old and this woman was very nice, but she had what to eat and she never shared. She never would say, "Oh, Cywia take a biscuit or something." No. Mine little cousin when we met him. He was a child. He stole from her things to eat and one day I give him an address and I said to him, "You know, you have nothing to lose. Go over the...the gates. Go to the Irish, to the Poles and go to my friend. She will know who you are, and tell her that you're hungry. Maybe she will give you a place to live. He went. He came back. He came back. He ate a good meal. He brought me a bread. Okay. So this family...he had a lot of money. She was hiding two little sacks under my mattress. She was afraid. I never looked in into the ____ believe me and I didn't care. And one day, looking out from the window...was in the day time, I saw that the building was like this that Germans are in the building. They are looking for people. So I took the cover over my head. And I said, "I don't care. If they come, they will come." So she put the little girl under my cover and she sat on the side and all of a sudden boom boom boom on the door, but nobody was open. It was like dumb. Pretend there is nobody there. After a few minutes it was quiet and so they went away. Okay? (Sigh) Since this day, I said I am not staying here anymore. Because it was in my head if they take this little girl and I will see how they kill her...how they will kill me, I don't care. I wouldn't know it. But to see before how they kill her, I don't want to see it. So I went to work. I mean I didn't work because my work was into the night. And I stood there as much as I could. So I stood there. Okay. My father find out that...uh...my two cousins are alive and they work by the brocz (ph) shop in the brocz (ph) shop. I also forgot to mention that in the ghetto when I still had this good life in the ghetto I went from day to day with mine...we were lived together with more people in the apartment.

Uh...So I met . Maybe you heard about him. What I went there because cousin's little boys to...uh...were sheltered there. My father's sister's children. And I don't know. It was a holiday or something and it was like a children's theater and my aunt said to me maybe you would come to see. So I went. My grandfather was still alive. He died in ghetto in January 1941...or may it was in 42. I think 41. And my father maked a separate burial because there was...in dozens they put. But he was a very religious man and a decent man so he dug by himself the...the graves. So I went and I met there a lot of people and I met him too. (Sigh) So this was the life in ghetto til my father came and he was talking with people and the rumors were that the ghetto wouldn't be too long that Tebins and Schultz are going together.

We have to look to escape the ghetto. Where to escape nobody knows. But people did if they were bought...uh...Polish papers that they not more Jews, but Poles. I couldn't do this because I looked very much as a Jew. I thought a German wouldn't recognize me if I am tall Jew or a Pole. But the anti-Semitism in Poland was terrible. Ninety percent of Poles worked hand in hand with the Jews....with the Germans. So...but in the other way you didn't have nothing to lose. So one day this couple came to my father. They didn't have children. They were from our town. They were also in ghetto. And they said, "We have somebody. We're going to go to them. If you want, maybe you could join us." They maybe wouldn't confirm this to my father, but they were looking for money in case if the people wouldn't take them without money. So maybe my father could pay for them too and this way they will go. So my father said, "In this minute I am not considering so much myself but mine baby, my daughter." So he...my father came to me and he said, "What would you say? Would you like to go with Lea and Abraham to the Irish side." I said, "Not by myself. Only with you." It was summer when they took away my mother. I didn't have any other clothes. I didn't have winter clothes. So my father went and bought me a pair of boots and he prepared me and still from ghetto not woman, mostly men, young boys went out to the Polish side. They called this the Irish side to work. They could have come in with two potatoes with a half bread, whatever, you know, and that's like the other people could buy and live also. So one day my father comes and says, "They are leaving soon and I am convinced that you should go." So when Leshno heard that I am going, he wanted to send his son too. And by the time was a person who lived actually in...in the wilderness there in the small town, going from room...from farmer to farmer and they knew him and they give him something to survive. So he went out with Leshno, with this young boy. Uh...And my father came and he said, "Now is the time and you're going in 2 days and don't tell anybody where you're going." But I couldn't hold a secret. I said, "If I want to survive, I would like my cousin to survive." But this time this little boy wasn't with us. We send him out. Go and look you should live.

Because a child, they didn't know he is Jewish. He was a blond, pretty little boy. So he wasn't anymore with us. And everybody was laughing with that...his face like this. I had long braids, black and really looking like a Jewish girl, but my Polish was perfect. (Sigh) It's...I mean I had no other opportunity. My father says, "But I wanted to...leave my secret to my other cousin. He was a very intelligent boy. He was older than I was, few years. And I said, "Listen __, anytime you escape the ghetto, come to this and this place, I knew already this place. My father told me because in 2 days I have to leave. But don't write it down. Just knew it. He was Warsaw born. He spoke already 5, 6 languages, very intelligent. Very intelligent boy. So, fine. So I had a little guilty on my chest that I let go my secret. And the German was bribed by somebody who went out for work that I would be on his workmanship today. So, of course, I been 7 o'clock in the morning in the winter dressed in the boots and a coat. The coat was mine, and nothing with me. . I couldn't hold nothing either one. But I was wearing like 10 shirts and my mother's dresses here and there. That's what I had with me. And I also could have had something because I am going to work so I had some package and I had a __. You know, a __.. I didn't know I am not supposed to have this because the German were afraid that you have a bomb or ammunition inside, but I didn't know it. And from this place I was instructed to come next building and there is a...like a...also a German workshop where the Jews what they go out worked there. And they were working in leather. So I came in. These two...this couple came in before. They weren't on the same...uh...work out. This German was bribed. I don't know how much and what. But I was separated from this people and I went in to this shop and I supposed to be in hiding and this guy knew it, the foreman that I am coming in. When the foreman saw me...his father was a friend of my father. My father had a lot of connections. And he says to me, "You going in the Irish side. You fall like a fly. With a face like this, even if you polish your . Sol said, "Benny, what do I have to lose?" I said to him. He didn't survive. I survived. Why. I am asking this question always myself. And my best. I ask, "Why, God, was I the fortunate?" And til late afternoon we stood there. I supposed to follow this couple because I don't know where we're going in Warsaw. From there we supposed to be transport again. This was Warsaw. This was ___. I knew very well Warsaw, but since they separated small ghetto, a big ghetto and here you could go and here you can't go so I was really was very mixed up.

But I followed them. I followed them and I walked. We supposed to go ___. There is the airport from Poland from Warsaw. I followed them. And it was snowing and you didn't see many people. And I always hold a handkerchief to my nose because my nose was the main trouble because a long nose don't look like Irish. All of a sudden I heard, "Cywia, Go. Go." I am afraid to look back, but whose calling Cywia? I am following these two people and I am afraid to lose my eye on them. My father. What happened? What happened that he heard...somebody came to tell him that he...if he wouldn't leave today, he could never leave again. So he and Leshno bribed also to somebody by the work somebody and they took a taxi on the Polish side and they went off. They knew Warsaw very well and he follows me.

But til he told me the story was 5, 6 hours later. But, thank God, I see him. Right? He was dressed up like a farmer and he looked...he was very thin and the mustache what he never wore it in specially for this occasion, he let it go. His Polish wasn't too good. But he came.

And as we're walking, this people...this couple, I didn't see them any more. I didn't know where I'm going, but my father knows, but he went into the wrong door. He opens the door.

It was night. And this woman says, "Karmaski, what you doing here?" And my father got pale and I stay here and, "Who is this?" He said, "That's my daughter." This was from Tarczyn, from mine town, a woman I didn't know her because she was mostly in Warsaw living in the same place. And when the German came she started work as a prostitute. And she lived with the Germans. And I...we didn't know from this. Later on, we knew it. When she saw us, she said, "Well, as much as I like to help you, the Germans will be here in a half hour." And she start to pull out drawers and pull out big pieces like the table clothes, the covers to cover the windows because we're here. My father says, "Don't bother. How is your father?" "Oh, he's fine. He lives in the same place. You probably will see him if you go to Tarezyn." And "Where you going?" So my father says, "I am going to Tarezyn." He was afraid that she's going actually next door. But we went out from her right away and my father begged her not to say anything and, "Oh, of course, not." And we went into the right door already. We came into the right door, but this was nervous and heartbreaking. This couple were there. My father's partner, Mr. Leshno, was there already too and they took us right away in the attic and then these people send out...they were poor people. The daughter which was in her 20s went out and bought food for us. We didn't have nothing to eat. And, "Fine.

We're supposed to be there." This was Saturday night and Sunday overnight. In the middle of the night, the voice says, "Everything is ready. Who is going first?" They supposed to take us. It was 34 kilometers to Tarczyn. And we wanted not go to Tarczyn, but to the sides of Tarczyn, to...through the forest to go to the village. And they don't want him to know it, so they maked up that he will take us, the six of us. No. Leshno's son wasn't anymore with us.

He left before with this guy. We were four...five. Uh...So this lady said, "She and her husband would go separate, and I should go with my father and this Mr. Leshno." She looked like an Irish woman and her husband ____ but she didn't want to go with us. So... but we were supposed to go to the same place. We met there. Fine. So this guy took us, a young son from these people. They got paid. How much I don't know. And with the horses, with the Wagen and we was like sitting like poor people, and they took us. And we went a few kilometers, somebody jumped out...it was still night, and Jews . Two Polish men.

They maked up with these people, you know. We were sold out. "Give me your money. Give me a few jewels, what you have. Otherwise, we're going to take you to the Germans." My father didn't know them. The guy didn't know them. I for sure not, but he start to shiver, this boy who took us...the son of this. Probably he knew what...who it is. Maybe the girl's boyfriend or whoever. We never find out. So they start from our, let's say, 5,000 slotas, but who had the money? So between my father and Leshno they gave him a thousand or fifteen hundred slotas, which was a lot of money for us and they let us go. So I had no saying in it. I was a little girl. So only my father and Leshno said, "You can go back. We don't need you anymore." We were afraid more people like this will jump out and he could give us out to the German. So we start to walk on the sideways (clearing throat again) til... We didn't have any much money, Polish money we didn't have any more. So we walked. We came to a small...uh...village and Mr. Leshno said to my father, "We're going into Saboski." His name was Saboski, a farmer, who was also dealing with my father, bought, you know, come to the...to the mill, borrowed sometimes money (clearing throat). So we came in. He right away like he said a prayer. Who am I seeing and he was afraid, but fine, it's Sunday night so the children are out, dancing or anyplace else, but he just put a poor man into the barn so he tell him to go out. He will give him a few slotas so he will go and look for another place and we'll...he will let us in just to rest in peace for a couple of hours. In the meantime my father sold him a piece of gold, you know, a coin and he sold...Mr. Leshno coin so he has Polish money to buy something. And we had a good meal. Milk and bread, and they were talking a little bit. But to hold us, he wasn't. He didn't need us. He was rich, a rich farmer. He didn't want us. Where we going? We had a place but he is still the destination. So we went into the forest. We still had to make like 20 something kilometers and we went in the daylight. We didn't want to walk because you could always see somebody so we stood mostly in the forest. About 5 o'clock in the morning we went into a farmer. We didn't where we're going in, but me and Mr. Leshno...my father couldn't go and Mr. Leshno spoke a little better this Polish and he knew more in this town..not town, village..people. My father didn't know so many there. So we went in and there wasn't there a guy, the owner from the farm, but a worker. And he said, "Out, you Jews, you go. What you doing here? You're going to shot.

Out from here." So Mr. Leshno says to him, "Can I speak with the owner?" "No, he's still sleeping. His wife is sleeping. Out from here. If not, the Germans are going to be here any minute." So we were afraid. So we start to walk again til we came like 5, 6 kilometers from the place where we want to go in, but we cannot go in the daytime and we have to wait for the night. So we staying in this forest and my father says, "I know this forest very well, and I know the manager from the forest and you stay here with Leshno and I go by myself." So I didn't agree. I said, "You'll never find us." Yes, he went with Leshno into this manager and he was very much afraid this manager when he saw them, but his conscious didn't let him.

Yablonski was his name, and he took them in and he give them food and he wanted to see me and my father was very happy that he wants to go along but he didn't remember where he left me. And I was sitting under a tree like this and all of a sudden a little deer comes around me, smells me...smells me and I said, "My God. Is this an angel from my mother?" I was...you know, it's like a dream. And, well, he said, "Wherever you go"...he didn't know where we're going..."Good luck to you. I cannot stay with you." And by the nighttime we went to this place. We came to this place. This woman with the husband were there already.

We came to a place to a German woman. She wasn't...she was born in Poland, that Volksdeutsche, and she has a Polish husband and for the money, she takes us in. I actually don't know exactly the money how many she got. I know they giving away a lot of gold...uh...but she also will have monthly money. When we receive the money from the partner, from the Christian partner, and a lot of lot promises from my father and him. Okay?

So right away, they have food and the bunker is made. We going in through the stables to a hole and middle is a pole. You cannot sit. You have to like this. When you lie it just like sardines. Uh...We been six people already. Two days later my cousin came. I was afraid to say that I said to him. I didn't tell my father til he came..that I told him the place, and we took him in to, so we have seven people already, like sardines. And it wasn't bad. You survive.

And what'a going to be nobody knew. But we're in a good place because she was German you know. But what we didn't know til the last minute when it happened that her husband belonged to...what you call...organization against the German, but they were against the Jews too. What's the difference? But he wasn't okay. Then they were pressing him that he should...uh...to be German to take care her nationality, and he didn't want it. So we're staying there and a cousin of mine, second cousin came to stay next building. This was in the village, you know, like...uh...farmer's house. She came to stay also by our farmer. They took her in because they know the family and my father and Leshno went in the night time so both the farmers know from each other. So they went. Sometimes she maked a better meal so she gave something to eat, you know. And it was good this way. We stood there for a nice couple of months til this couple said they're going to another place. They afraid to be together with us because we are too many. So they went to another place. We knew it...the place. And the sent the brother of his brother came to live with us...to live in this (laughter) beautiful surroundings. In the evening a lot of times this...they came that we could come in...in the house. So we came in. We had the water what she cooked for us with two potatoes and that's how we lived. It was like in this time before the holidays. And my father had a letter from a...from an estate. This called like a big farmer a that he owes my father this and this money because my father bought from him were when he supposed...from the fields he brought already the...the...the corn already from him. The choice is by God all will be alot or will be small, but he make a deal with him...let's say it will be a 100 ____ or maybe 200, so I pay you for 170 or I pay you for 150. And this was the bill and my father paid in advance. So these ____ from this estate had paid everything and we...this was a paper, and I was carrying this paper with me to go with this German woman...he should give us some flour so she could make bread for herself, for us, and also because my father was religious.

We all been. We didn't want to eat bread for Passover. So she agreed that she will, with our help, will help make Matzahs for us. I went with her to this...uh...man til he took me in. He sat with me. He saw the paper. He said I should come another day. And I said, "Frankly, I wouldn't like to come another day because I am taking my life in my hands like this. This is some kilometers to go." And in this same talking I want him to kow that I didn't come along, that I come with a Christian woman. I was fraid to say German woman because he could kill me and, you know, this way he has witnesses that somebody is dead, that I was told my father... told me what to say. And I told him everything. He didn't give me nothing this time.

So we appealed to the people in Tarczyn...to the mill people, and they give us flour. 50 pounds. And 2 nights before the Passover, I, my father. this cousin from the other guy, she came in to us and he told us and we stood and she maked the oven. She had a oven in her house and we make the matzahs for Passover. We didn't have many because they liked them better than us, this German with her children and her husband, but we didn't need anything else and we begged her...to my father didn't take any part in it. When she boils the potatoes, just right potatoes, no fat, no Schmalz, you know, because sometimes they put pork, little bit, and also from beets (ph) she should have make Wurst for us, so that what this. And in the night time another few Jews came from other places. They know we're here. And in the bunker everybody was crying. We didn't have a seder, and my father make the seder. Milk and water was our wine. Not much, but everybody could get a drop. And this Mr. Pavlock was his name, this German's husband...he was on top to see if nobody is around because it was a little higher the emotions than actually it should have been. Everybody was crying and praying to God for a miracle, but we had a seder. And everybody went home with a piece of matzah to celebrate the second night too. And from then on, my name was Ceshick (ph). Not Cywia, but Ceshick (ph). Okay? Everybody went back home. And it was peaceful. From sometimes in the day, she said I should come into the house. It's quiet. I should watch the baby. She's going out in the fields. One day she was still home and I was called in. She says to me...this German, "I left the little dog outside, so if you know he's barking you should run in the oven." So I heard barking this little dog and I said...I was peeling potatoes and watching the baby also. I was glad to be home, not to sit there. (Sigh) I said...all of a sudden she heard voices. Right? So she ran out, and I ran in the oven. And this little dog saved my life. The Germans came in and they asked about her husband, and they start to speak to her German and I heard every word...two soldiers ____. And they asked for her husband. If she was very much tortured that her husband should take the nationality...the German nationality. Okay? So thank God, they left and I was saved. From then on I was afraid to come. I was always there. One day it was really something. I had to use the bathrooms. I had probably a loose stomach. I went in top and I didn't know that somebody inside from the bunker, the brother from this guy went upstairs already. So I went. It wasn't a toilet or anything. I released myself, and I want to go out...down. I see the doors are open and two men came with a woman in. Uh huh. is here. A Jewish girl is here. So they spotted him to.

So I said...it was a hole here and I came to hide here. You understand? Not that we're hiding here. And please don't kill me. Let me run away. So he said, "Hush. Hush." So | and this guy start to run. We run. We didn't want to say what, you know... But we had also learned that whenever we going out to this place, you have to cover it back with straw, with all the dirt, which I did which was good. And they were looking for this man, for Pavlack. Uh...We were running, we both of us, and we came to a place, a farmer. He knewed everybody. So we said that we very hungry, she should let us in. A very old woman from a fry pan she must have ready for a dog...potatoes, you know, from who...whoever left them and she pulled red borscht on it and she put milk on it and water... like for a dog probably, and she brought us this for us. It was in heaven. We both start to eat. I don't even remember if it was a spoon (laughter) and we stood there til in the night time. In the night time we went back to the place which was, Thank God, that we survived the day. A few days later the men came in and he said during the day...it was on a Monday...and the man said, "I am sorry, but you must leave.

I heard in town that I have Jews. And any day they could come. So I don't want any...you know, anything to happen to you. So please leave. And when it's quiet you could come back." This guy was sick. He was a nice man. What was the problem? She got drunk, and she said in the...in the town there in the village...Sunday, Saturday, "You will see how rich I will get when the war is end." Nobody knew it but when the war is end she will be a German because she will get rich...or she have Jews. They speculate. They didn't know it. So we have to run away. So my father says, ____ Where to go? We have nobody." So this is like 11, 12 o'clock in the bright day in winter. Go to the forest. Mr. Leshno and his son, right way they go to this...they were a little relatives very distant with this couple, so they're going to this couple. So my father said, "Who cares. I am going too." We go, but we can't go together. So they went separate in us. As we going through the forest...everything through the forest, and we left everything here what we possessed. I had my mother's dresses which sometimes my father took in the night time a dress and went out to another farm and sold the dress or bought a bottle of milk for it or this, but she took control of everything, this German woman.

I also had beads, under beads. My father had this...he bought this for my mother as a souvenir, a gift, and since I took mine mother's knapsack...everything...

Q: Knapsack.

A: Knapsack. So I had this there too. So she took this too...this German woman until she returned after the war to me. Not all of them, but a few and I still have them and cherish them very much. So we came to this forest, me and my father, and my father was very much afraid that somebody finds me I should be raped. I didn't know nothing about life. It wasn't time to..to tell me, you know. And all of a sudden he sees this man. He says, "I know you." A christian person. You...this and this name. At the moment I don't remember, but I did remember his name. Maybe you could take my daughter in. She's a young girl. I will stay in the forest, but take my daughter in. He said, "Karmaska, I would take you too, but they workers working by me. They making oil, black oil from ___.. I don't know this word. I never saw it. It's like...uh...a flower, you know, by the Poles. So I really can't take you, but I advise you should stay away from here because this day the German confiscate pork, cows, anything what's alive and dead, they confiscate...confiscate from the farmers. So, Thank God, we're together again, me and my father, because he saw that he's not a dangerous man so we got together again. And I said, "Dad, maybe we'll stay in the forest til the night and we go." He said, "No, if the Germans come they could come to the forest too." So we went to these people. There was a lady with two beautiful daughters, not too rich, and she was really holding this couple to survive. And these two people came also Leshno with her son and here we are also. We weren't too happy at all. My father was very famous in the town. She liked to speak to him and everything but she doesn't want to hold so many people, and it's not healthy also. So we stood a little bit and then was very late and she said, "Not right away in the ice"...to this couple or maybe just this couple said...didn't say anything...we speculate only. "We will go. If God give us our life"...I mean I didn't say anything because I still was looking up to my father. To me he was God. And we survived so much, and everything what he said it came out the right way so what can I say? (Sigh) So we went out with this that we're going back to this place..we have no...to this German woman, first to have the possession there. Second, we'll stay there. So...but we were hungry. So I went into a store in the...by the forest. I knew the person. He built in Tarczyn in mine house...in our house, an oven from tiles, you know, so I asked my father, "Shall I say who Iam?" And he said, "If he recognize you, fine. But don't say anything?" My father was standing on the outside. So I went in and I asked, "Could you please sell me a bread, a half kilo of bread. I'm very hungry." He said, "I know who you are and would I have bread I would sell you. But it's too late and I don't have it. Maybe when you come another time." Okay. So I went out and I said this to my father and we had to make like another 3, 4 miles...kilometers to this place where we been. So here we come in, it was like...I would say 7, 8 o'clock in the night, but it was dark, very dark already by the forest still, and this German woman...this where we lived standing and washing already my mother's nice things. I said, "Why're you doing this?" And also the shirts from my father and from Mr. Leshno...what ever we had. She grabbed every...cleaned up the bunker and she's washing. "Oh, when it gets dry, you will get it back." We never get it back. We had nothing anymore, and I start to ask for shoes from my mother's what I had. I had...from...in the knapsack and for the beads. "Oh, what do you need it. What do you need it." Okay. "Can we stay." She said, "I prefer this place should be a little clean at least for a few days." She was right. But tonight you have to stay. Otherwise ... where would you go? So I went in back with my father to this bunker and we stayed there. And the same night Leshno came with his son, so we back four people there. My cousin went away, and we didn't see him for a couple of days and he didn't know what the changes were here. (Sigh)

So we stood, but they weren't happy with us, and we knew any day something will happen.

(Sigh) So we knew from one place where it's hiding a man, a acquaintance Mr. Leshno. He lost the whole family, but to take out a girl, for a wife, you know, to live with her and she has really the looks from a Christian with a brother. So we decide...they decide we going to them. But this is so far away. Like this is in the east and this is in the west. So the night is big. So we start to walk. And we came there, and they agreed to hold us. It was no parents there. Just a young boy, maybe 18, 19 years and small children. A sister was maybe 16, little boy 10 but he walks like he was 25, this little boy. I just drink something. If I could or not, but I can't talk. So they agreed to hold us. So this couple, this man went in another place...but the same farmer boy, he went to live in an attic from the house, and we took over his bunker, but for the day time he came to stay with us because with us was more people. They played cards. They talked. So we stayed together. (Sigh) How long...maybe 2 months, 3 months probably. Anyway we heard the news from around what happened. One nice day we heard that the place by these German people... the Gestapo came they couldn't live without Jews, so they took in a family with two children and the Gestapo killed her husband, not with a shot, but like with a butt, not because he holds Jews. Because he was against to take the citizens as a German. They would have killed her too but she was pregnant at the time. So they let her live and as they were looking...I don't know, maybe for Jews, they find the two Jews...the family. The little boy escaped. Two little boys were...the kids escaped. The parents were killed. That's... knew them. They were also from mine town. It was a sister from this couple what I went out together from the ghetto, from the Warsaw ghetto. And the time we heard also that the liquidate the ghetto and that was the time when my cousin came and we had...we saw in the morning even the men brought us in burned pieces of paper from the ghetto when the ghetto was burning, like from seders or from Torahs. Who knows what it was. Probably just books. You know. The wind brought it back, and the smell was also...

Okay. So we were living there. (Sigh) Nothing comfort. Hungry. But the best we could do, we're doing only to survive. One night...

Q: I think we better stop. They're going to change the tape.

End of Tape #2 Tape #3

Q: Okay. You can go ahead now.

A: Okay. We stayed with this family in Pomyonka. That's how they call this place. And there was no father, just a boy, a sister and...uh...two or three more children, and we were staying in this bunker one beautiful night...mustly we are people on the night, not on the day, so they brought us in the night. The first we could speak clearly. As we were sleeping, Poles came...young boys. Matter of fact, I recognized one who borrowed my homework from school, and he said, "Give me your money. You rich people. Give me your gold. GIve me everything." I said, "____, you took books from me. How was it you never wanted to make copy from me, and you're going to take my books." He slapped me and he pulled my boots off. Okay? He took away from my father this picture, all the pictures. A night or two before I had a dream from my mother and she said, "My dear child, if you want to save your pictures, maybe you could make a little...uh...bag on your neck and this way you will save the pictures." And I mentioned this to my cousin, and she said, "Why not? I help you, and let's make it." We didn't have any material so she took off her bra and in the bra was a double lining so she took the lining and make for me a...a little bag, and I put in all these pictures, and the pictures thanks to this you have it now. And the pictures survived. My father had a lot of pictures from his family from his father, from his mother. He was an orphan when he was 9, 10 years old, so he had...still had pictures from his mother who died when she was 29 years old. And they all take the pictures. Don't ask me why...what they need the pictures, but they took it. But the sad story was that the Poles didn't come along. They come with a Jewish boy. The Jewish boy was from our town. His name was __. And we saw him. He looked like a Pole, and maybe he saved his life by giving out us to them. Money...they...we didn't have money. If we had it, we had only in, you know, what we had hid in hiding, sewn in the garment what we had. And they took us to the room, together with this people, already with this couple, this man and this girl who took out from the attic, and they put us in a line and when my father...uh...saw this and they took away already his pictures, he run. He has...he had only his slacks and a jacket, and he had his pyjama under and he run. And from Leshno from my father's partner, they took the boots also. In the boots was a gold piece, so he was barefoot. And they took my boots so I start to ask and beg in the room, "Please give...take everything, but I know you. We grow up together. I went with your sister to school. Why you taking my boots? We're fighting for our life. Please." And I was crying. So one give me a slap in the face, and I fell to the ground. After the war, I took care of him. That's the whole family came to Lodz to me to beg to me he should be released from prison. Through Russian soldiers and through a Pole I got to him. What's with him, I don't know, but the story was told. Not from me but from this Pole who was a friend. He was a Senator before the war.

Anyway we ran out. Then they left. When they left, the guy didn't want to hold us. It's no use to hold us. Right? So...and it was raining. It was early morning, like 6 o'clock, 7 o'clock. So I cannot walk in the...in the forest because it was after the...how you call this? When they take from...up the...the... I forgotten? When the farmers take off from the...from the ... I need this word.

Q: Plowing or the...

A: Plowing...no they didn't take up the plowing. The harvest! You know when I get nervous I (laughter) I lose the... the harvest. It was the harvest...after the harvest, so you know the straw what they took off it went...it goes in your legs. I couldn't walk. But still they had the straw staying to get dry so me and my cousin went into...to like on the straw like you saw in a picture.

Q: Haystack.

A: The haystack. So we went in but we couldn't get in to..and here we have a whole day to get through with this. And my cousin also went into one, but he was by himself and he start to talk to us, what we doing next and where are we going? It start to rain and it was windy, and all of a sudden one minute it fall apart, the straw and we staying like this. No people surrounding. Nobody was there. So we decide we had nothing to lose. We start to walk.

Where are we going? We're going to a forest. But we had this maked up with my father.

Only thing what happened we meet but this Senator, . He was a friend of ours. My father had hidden this stuff what he always sold for us...a dress, a garment, something...a piece of furniture, we should be able to live. So by him is the best part to live. His brother was the one who brought into the Warsaw ghetto sometimes money and she was the one from the mill what she got the pension and brought for us also. Very confident people. He was the one who brought to trial this guy who took my boots. Okay. So we supposed to meet by him, which in the night time we met there. We came to him. He said, "You go out here and here. You'll find your father." So my father had already boots. Through the day, Lesh...my father had the boots, but Leshno had boots and had something to eat, so my father said, "We have no place, but let's go and look for somebody also from the town. He mentioned once that he could have a place for us." This was already the night. So we went and we...we got this man. It was like oasis, with little trees, like a forest, and all of us went in there and my father said, "We will probably go to this place." But he went, this guy went. He said he's a relative...I don't know exactly to my father....to this and this guy to ask him if he wants to make money so we could be by him. So during the day we went in this oasis.

We had nothing to eat, just what we'd brought up, but at least we were been all together.

Leshno's son ran away so he went to another place, to another village where also there were Jews, and I and my cousin and my father and Leshno and the cousin...the lady was in this oasis and this guy went to ask this guy. He came back with good news, that they want to take us, and set the amount of money and the gained the promises after...after...after. We went into this place. There was two very old people, and...uh...a bachelor's son and a younger son and a widower, a son-in-law. But the son-in-law was better than all of them. His wife died and he remained in the village, and he was working for the German by...uh...milk, but the...the farmers brought him milk there and he make ...uh...uh...sour cream and he shoveled this to the German. So a few dollars, for a few slotas he sometimes brought us a bottle of milk which it wasn't already milk, but was sour, but it was good for us. Okay. So we were living on this and we were very comfortable. At night time they let us in inside and we had not a meal, but fine. So we took our cousin also, the very intelligent boy and there he got very sick, my cousin. And he was afraid to go to the doctor, and he start...because he knew so much, he start to cure himself, and he died there. And now like _____ will have his and after the war we want to take his body out but the town didn't allowed us. My father did a very much, a lot a lot, but we were afraid to start it, so he remains still his bones there, in his field. We stood there and this old lady went occasionally to town and she brought bread and she baked bread. And we give them...my father give them money, and they live a little...a life a little more comfortable because they were very, very poor. And we had a nice place by them. And also the same pattern...to go in, I have pictures here how we went into this bunker, how many people we were there and nobody knew it. And this guy also stood with us. We even like paid for him too. And one beautiful day...uh...they came to the town, and they said that the German come to the town and they going to occupy you, you, you...I mean the farmers" places, and we had to go. We had to leave. We had to leave. This was winter, and it was very, very cold. A storm in Poland and we are not dressed. I don't still have boots. I don't have nothing what to wear. (Sigh) So what do I have to lose. I went to town. And I knocked on the door for my neighbor. Her husband worked us...worked in our mill and I said... she has no children. He used to like me very much because he said I said I was used to sing. When I went to school late and I said, "I don't have boots." I put down the latest hiding and they like 2, 3 sizes smaller and I came and please...here...when you get the money from ___ from the mill, please buy me a pair of boots and a coat." So she went down, and she bought me shoes, and she bought me...high shoes, not boots, but high shoes, and she bought me a coat, and she gave me a good meal to eat, and I maked up with the woman what she took me to town and she went shopping to me and I survived. I came to...to the hiding place back with a few dollars, with bread. That's how I got the shoes for me.

And we were there. Okay. And she always borrowed my shoes...the lady, the old lady. It was three sizes big. One day she said she wouldn't give me back but I didn't need it, I don't walk anymore. But when I...when we suppose to leave, she didn't give me my shoes. She give me her shoes. And they still were too small. Where do we go? We have no place where to go. So we know from this place where the Jews are, by this old lady. We go to her. So we came there. And the Jews they were hiding there, didn't let us in. They said they want to live. Too many Jews cannot be here. It's very dangerous. But me and my cousin are young girls, they would take in. My father and Leshno they don't want to take in. Okay. But the woman wanted to take in my father. She didn't care. This is the picture what I showed you and which I brought. So I said, "If not my father, I don't want to go either." So I, my father, Leshno, my cousin, and Leshno's son went back to this place, to the oasis, to the forest, in the middle.

This was a Sunday. And we sitting, lying like this, not sitting, but from the __ from the forest. All of a sudden we hear from the town...from the village, boys are playing cards, you know, and we are like mouses. Quiet. All of a sudden, bang, bang, bang. We heard a shooting. I saw the Germans. I saw the police, the Polish police. I picked my head up and the worse part what it was, they had white cheese, like farmer cheese, apiece and a boy who I know it, had a whole farmer cheese. He was so happy. He went out. He was killed. So I said because we have farmer cheese, we're going to be killed. So my father said, "Don't pick up your head. Just lay down." So I was lying after him. I don't know what make me do, but I picked up my head and I saw the bayonet...the... the...the...from the German and from the Polish...uh... policeman. They were looking...and for the...I can't remember exactly how the Polish organization . They were looking for this organization because they were an organization also against the German, but also against the Jews. Okay. So this shooting what we heard...we been 7, 8 people. The players were also ___. They were shot from this Polish police and from the German. We survived thanks to them because they shot them they head them off of us. But we saw them. My father, I mean, the rest of the people, everybody saw them. They didn't see us, but we could see them. Not the faces exactly, but they have bodies. Okay. So in the night time we said, "We can't stay here. We cannot stay here. We have to run again." So a delegation went to this woman that she took...has to take us in. So she took us in. Okay? When she took us in, this Jewish people what they were hiding there, went away from her because the whole town know that she has Jews. They were so hungry that they was eating leaves from...from like ____, you know, spinach, from the...from the farm. They didn't have nothing to eat. And they give us some money, some promises. We lived on promises, which we...we...thank God we remained. The world was good. They all had paid for it. And this woman took us out...took us in. Was very, very cold already, and was a storm, and it was near like to the liberation already. So in the night time in the storm, we didn't had meat and my father and...uh...Leshno went, but we have to go in for the towns they maked holes so we had to go like two..two flopped down and then to come out. Otherwise, there was no way to get through to this...uh..village. So we went in. Fine. But we couldn't get up. So my father with a cane...he was thin and very, you know, so he went up and then he start to slip me up. So I lost this bread what I had with me. I just had in my pocket...from the coat pocket..-uh...I think I had...uh... something...I don't know what I had. It doesn't matter. I had something, a biscuit maybe. And...uh...he started to take Leshno up. He wasn't heavy, but he was 6 foot, maybe more even. Very hardly, he was begging, "I want to die here. Please, you go. You live. Go. Go. Go." My father says, "No. You take it. You fell one time. You fell two times because there's the water, and there's the snow inside. We came up. But now how do you go? If you go into snow, you make a lot of steps so the steps will lead to her. Right? So we went. Anyway we came there, and there we staying. Staying there was a hard life there too. Til these the other Jews left. They had a hard time with them. Why?

Because it was too many of us in one place. She couldn't cook. She didn't had where to eat.

She had a pot with a hole because it was dripping out if she put water in. They were very poor. Primitive. Very primitive. (Sigh) So one beautiful day, we heard screaming. The police there. "Hey, Lady, where do you have the Jews?" She said, "What Jews?" So one policeman...I knew him..I had...I recognized the voice. He was __ by father plenty in the good days. Malechewski (ph) was his name. With his son I went to school too. Was a small town. Everybody want know each other. Tarcyzn was very small. So he slapped the girl. She was 10 years old. "You. Tell me where the Jews are." She said, "We don't have Jews." So the little boy who was 8 years old heard that she denies, so he denied too. They took away our stuff, a few pieces of silver, you know, what this woman had taken from us. My father or Leshno give it to her, but this shouldn't be in first place this place because she hasn't got a pot or nothing to eat, and here she has silver cup what you make Kiddush on it you know. And we had them to sell...to get some money or bread for it. Okay. When they left, these Jews left us too and we're by her hiding and hiding. Then her daughter came. A married daughter. Her husband was a terrible anti-Semite. And they discovered us. Money. Good words. We talked. We had nothing to lose. Where do you go? And we know it's soon it's going to be over because the American planes were on our heads. We saw it already in the night time when we went out from bunker we could see. We prayed for this moment. Right? So we stood there. No other returning. And one night people came. We were in bunker. By her it was more in home because it was a cellar, and they were talking Russian and this was the partisans and they took the older boy away, and this week was a terrific day because the boy came from church. They were very religious people, the Christian people. So he went to church and the Priest gave a sermon that he should help people but many times he came home and he said, "Hey, Maw. Maybe we should throw out these Jews?" The priests said that we shouldn't hold Jews or partisans because they will kills us. We had already news that they took two Jewish girls for five pounds of sugar to the Germans and they escaped. And this was my father's cousins. I include the pictures here...them. They survived the war. They are not living anymore. They lived in Israel. They left a nice family, but they don't live there anymore. Natural death. And so we were afraid. Right? So the church didn't work for the Jews. That's for real. The anti-Semitism was terrible. If a neighbor knocked the door, they knew that this neighbor has Jews you couldn't stay another day. Even by the people what they took from you the money and they very nice and they wait we should be liberate so they will get rich, even they were anti-Semite. Why I don't know. I would never know. I am not a prejudice person. By me everybody's good and all the flowers are the same. One is yellow, one is white and red. So am I. One...a person's a humanbeing and that's it. But the church had a lot to do with anti-Semitism. So this boy came home and he wasn't in a good mood, and in the night time during the night, this partisans came and they lie down on the floor under the opening from the...how we are afraid, and they talking Russians. I don't understand their...now I understand Russian. But my father understood. So he bent over like this to me and hold my arms like this I shouldn't cough. I shouldn't do anything. Thank God. We were healthy in there. And everybody quiet til it got light, so he took him with his horse to some destination. I don't know where. Three days later he came running...the same boy. Jew. Jude.

Get out. Your're free. So we were like...we didn't want to go out. We were like paralyzed.

And this same day we got flour for this woman and she baked bread. Each bread was like a table round. So my father...he didn't see anything, but he touched the big bread and he's running. And here the front is going. And this was the...the...great..., you know,the holes...where for the tanks. And the stopped the whole army, the Russian army, and he screams in Russian...he's Jewish and he's liberated and he is kissing this cop, this Russian, and the whole army stopped. And he's explaining and he catched this _ boy Ganick. His name is Ganick Vitishinski. I have pictures include from his mother. This is my man. By him we survived and I am going to do everything from him, and we are free. And he's telling him, so the captain says...major captain...uh...he's telling that his wife and his sons got killed from Germans, so he said, "So's the whole world. Everybody's killed a little. 1 mean he meant Jews because he came from Russia through with the front, and he know what is going on. Okay? So and we were afraid that maybe it's not so. Maybe this will be German. But we saw the German running...German soldiers running, and got killed also from...from this soldiers...from the Russian. And they took the bread and my father came back to..to us, and this night we didn't sit anymore in bunker. But from another town, , there was also a very rich persons with an estate. He also...Leskinski ____ in Polish is the name. He came...he heard this Kamalski, my father and Leshno is here so he came to visit. And they sat and kissed, but a few days before when my father sent this lady to say that Kamalski is around and occasion I see him, give him something to eat or give him a few dollars, Polish slotas, that's not.... They were afraid already for communism you know. So he sat a whole night and speak to them and in the morning we are liberated. So everybody from us, myself, my father and my cousin, Leshno we went to town. By this time my cousin, which was my father's second wife, remained in the place by this people what we had to go away because the Germans really came to them. They occupied all the stables. But she looked a little like...uh...a Polish girl so she stood behind and she didn't want...she didn't care already for life. You know, she was very depressed also. She was older than me naturally. So...uh...we met her too as we went...continue. I didn't know. I didn't know much that my father and her was a little romance. And Leshno also would like to marry her. It was like a competition a little. But...uh...I think my...she married my father for mostly the promise was to my father.

She was never married, and she was a true family...she was a far cousin to me. Okay. So when we were liberated, my father married her. And they had a very happy life, and I loved her very much. And she gave me a brother and a sister which I adore and I love them. My brother was born in Poland and my sister was born Israel and very tight family. She died when she was 46 years old. Naturally, she had a heart failure...failure so she died. Okay?

And my father died in "77. He was 77 years old. He lived in Israel and when she died he...he like he died too. But we insist that he should pick up his life. He has small children. My brother was 14 years old. My sister was 6...excuse me...12 years old. She was born when my brother was 6 years old. And with letters...uh...1 begged him he should remarry and he did remarry and he wasn't happy. And I think from unhappiness he died. Okay?

Q: Thank you. We have to stop at this point.

A: Okay. We left Paris. And we. Shall we continue?

Q: I mean that's all the time we have on this tape. Linda said we had to stop. Thank you very much.

A: I would like to add that I went to Paris...in Lodz.

Q: She said to do it in two sentences. Tell her what you need to tell about Lodz.

A: I want to say I was liberated...we were liberated. I want to add that we were liberated. I was in the middle.

Q: Okay. Go ahead.

A: I was liberated. Excuse me. I was liberated in January...in January 16, 1945. We went to Tarczyn. I went back to mine house. It was very hard for us. We couldn't stay in Tarezyn because in the middle of the night, as much as the Poles loved us, they throw stones on us and they said the Jews should be killed and not stay with them anymore. So we went to live in Lodz. And we lived in Lodz til 1 met my husband and we went to Paris in 1947. I lived in Paris 6 years, happy years, and then when the war start with...uh... Viet Nam...uh...we wanted to go to America because I didn't want to live another war. So we went to America and we maked our life. I have two daughters, Francis and Linda. They're both married, both have two children. Francis has a boy and a girl, and Linda has two girls, and they're very good children and they remember they belong to the second generation. They know what their parents lived through. That's mine life. I dreamed a lot about it, and many nights I would like to dream or to wake up to see it, but I survived. Thank God.

Q: Thank you very much.

A: Thank you.

End of Tape #3

Conclusion of Interview