Document

WILLIAM PERL October 7, 1996

Q: This is the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with William Perl conducted by Scott Miller in Beltsville, Maryland. This is tape number 1, side A.

Okay, Mr. Perl, I would just first like to start at the beginning. I'd like to ask where and when you were born and what was your name at birth?

A: I was born on the 21st of September, 1996, 1906, and this, you might wonder why I had the birthday and not age, its because the 21st is Yom Kippur. Yeah. I was born in Paris to Rudolph Perl and Samela (ph) Perl on Nia Fisha (ph) on the second day of Rosh Hoshana.

Q: Okay. That's great. Now...

A: My name was Willy, I was, W-I-L-L-Y, Willy Perl.

Q: Willy Perl.

A: And I changed my name in America to William.

Q: Okay. Then you, you grew up in Prague?

A: Not entirely, no. I grew up in, I started out to grow up in Prague. Before I was four years old, I was almost four years old, my parents moved from Prague to Vienna.

Q: To Vienna.

A: Which was the old, in the same country, Prague was in Bohemia, which was in Olsten (ph) Province.

Q: Okay. Now, I'd like to focus in on the years before, of course, you began with emigration to Palestine and all that. How did you get involved, first of all, in the Zionist movement and specifically with Betar (ph) and revisionist and Zionism. You were involved before you began in, before 1937...

A: Yes. I recall that.

Q: How did you get involved?

A: I had an uncle Siegmund (ph) Korn (ph), who was a member of the First Zionist Congress in Betar (ph) and he was a convinced Zionist and interestingly and he explained to me

about the Jewish history and about the Jewish building a nation on their own as soon as, who would understand and I was, from the beginning, when I knew that nationally, ethically I am a Jew, was an important issue in Prague, because Prague was the capital of Bohemia and there was a fight for the languages there, between Czech and German, the Jews all held to the German side and all spoke German while most of the population spoke Czech. But, I was brought up by the incubel (ph). We had a maid, with whom I spoke only Czech and my parents spoke only Czech with me for the purpose of, that's why Czech is my mother tongue because they said, "German you'll always learn, but you should speak Czech." And so I was brought up by the incubel (ph).

Q: So how old were you when, this, your uncle, had this effect on you? Were you still a child?

A: I was four years old. I don't remember any effect at this time, but I remember that when most of Vienna started using for drawing pencils, pencils of the Jewish National Fund and he explained it to me what the Jewish National Fund was that it buys land in Palestine and that we will have, that we always had our country there and that we will have our country there again.

Q: Right. And do you remember anti-semitism growing up?

A: Yes, I sure do. I remember shouting in Vienna when I came to the playground. I was sometimes asked, I don't know, sometimes, but I remember , where I was asked, "Are you a Jew?" and I said, "Yes," and the boy, the student said, "Well we can't play with you," and I asked, "Why?" So this boy said, "Because you killed Christ." And I said, "I didn't kill anybody." He said, "Yes, you killed Christ." I said, "No" and then he said, "Then you father did." He was born (ph) insolent. And then there was when you traveled in the trains, you, there was a certain habit that if you were in the train and if there was a with you and you were in quarters compartments that eight people if you traveled third class and that one of them starts out holding his nose and set his teeth, there must be a Jew here. I remember that this happened once and we left their compartment.

Q: Now, were your parents also Zionists?

A: Yes and no. They tended towards Zionism, but at the same time they did not know much about Jewish history and but they identified very strongly with Judaism.

Q: Right. When you were a young adult in, in Vienna, you went to law school, you became a...

A: Yes. I went first to elementary school, a special elementary school that my parents sent me to. It was a school that was run by the City of Vienna as a letter-building , a training school for teachers. And , you are supposed to go five years to elementary school and then to the middle school or to the gymnasium, but you could after four years already miss any particular examinations unless you skip the fifth year as I did (ph).

Q: At what point did you actually get involved organizationally with a revisionist, with Betar (ph), how old were you, what...?

A: I was involved at about 16, 17 years of age. Yes, but I had been before at the Zionist Congress in Carlsbad in about 1920 with my father, nearby in Marinebarton (ph) and I, before all of this was going on in Jewish matters. They asked that Jewish be ascribed to and my father told me stories about I was very fascinated as he turned it into stories about what happened to the other 10 tribes.

Q: Right. So, in Vienna, to go ahead to the early 1930's, of course, in January, 1933, Hitler comes to power in Germany. How did that affect your Zionist activities?

A: Well, you must know I had belonged before to Zionist Student, Student Fraternity, but it was not academic students, it was not yet at a university. It was in a gymnasium. And it was

, but Zionism in Vienna had a very strong look and national Jewish component, because it was led by Robert (ph) Schlecker (ph), Robert Schlecker was the leader of the Olsten (ph) Jews and he was a good friend of my uncle, Siegmund Korn (ph), because both had been very good student at First Zionist Congress from Bruno (ph) in Moravia and my uncle from Prague and they continued their contact in Vienna, so I was somehow all this in the group which had student . Zionism has a very strong local node which was at least as much

to us national assistance, assistance of national as Zionism.

Q: Right. So, but after Hitler's rise to power...

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you feel, I mean, was your Zionist activities strengthened?

A: Yeah, but I was before this already very much in the Jewish Student Movement. I was in the Jewish Academic Israel, that was one of the corporations which had been Zionist from the beginning of Zionism and I had, yesterday only I got a postcard I think it's not a postcard, I think it is a photocopy of Heffa (ph) in which he writes to Israel, "To my dear corporation Israel" and to fraternities they are very different to fraternities here. They are a small group, usually not more than 10 or 12 at the most, would have to be accepted by unanimous vote and I was very much in this fraternity. This was a dueling fraternity. I fought two duels from quite old times (ph). Here you can still see a little bit, but most of this is gone. I fought two duels in my, in my student times. And this was all very much __ Jewish affairs. I was at Vienna investigated by the University of Vienna for having started a riot there. Which I really did one, once.

Q: What year was that?

A: That was about 1928 or "29, probably "29. Every Saturday, the Jewish older fraternities went on a boomer (ph) on the parade (ph) to the university everyone had a place where they stood and the Jewish students, national fraternities to which the __ was one, the second oldest, the oldest was Fatima (ph) after whom a saint was recently named, Jerusalem, then Fatima had a place, too, and from time to time the German students, the nationalist fraternity, stood next to us, they started to beat us and to throw us out of the university and before this happened every time they sung a certain song and then after they sung it, they kicked us out. And once you knew only from the atmosphere that it was to happen before they started the song and once when they were close to starting the song, I then walked up there and said, "I want to speak to your leader" and said, as soon as I came to him, I was brought to him and said I had to leave a message from the Jewish student organizations, bang-then I hit him very hard which, of course, immediately that I was grabbed and beaten and kicked out, but the fight developed in the university and we were all thrown out as we usually were, but at that time it was not that you risked your lives, they just beat you. Once only at such a riot a man was badly injured and this was the son of Sigmund Freud, Martin Freud was his name. He became a lawyer. He was badly injured at one of those fights and I was accused of having starting the riot at the university just so, but the others had started the riots and I usually

would not, they would throw us out anyhow, so I started it. And this is very interesting political , the rector(ph), the do you director, too?

Q: Yeah.

A: Director of the University, Paxton (ph) Manificos(ph) was exchanged from year to year from one faculty to the other was at that time the initver (ph), the name was I-N-I-T-V-E-R, and he was a theologian. He was applied by the theologian faculty and he was a priest and he was___and I told him, "You don't think that I would be crazy to start a fight; how many are we and how many are the others?" And of the newspapers in Vienna, they are largely in Jewish hands and liberal, very liberal, and they looked out for the chance to hear to have the director of the university who was a theologian and he was then finally called to this panel and he announced that I am being warned.

That was all. I could have been excluded from the university , because he had told me, I had told him, "You know that you really don't start this" and he said,"___I don't know." Well, he was very mild (ph) and the journalists were waiting outside for me to come out with accusations toward the Director and I told them he was a nice man, he has a very liberal attitude so this makes a nice story, too. So they had a big story that a priest who is not radical and who is most pleasant sort and had very good press and shortly after that the Olsten (ph) party formed a coalition to look for a Minister of Social Welfare and they got him because he was accepted to the liberal school. I think this has something to do with my, with my___ until I was mentioned by the and he became Minister of Social Welfare and he was one of the Olsten Provision (ph) government and then they told the Cardinal of Vienna died and he was well-liked by everybody, that they made him, the Pope made him Cardinal for Vienna, but he behaved very badly, well, the, the Nazis came in and he was the first one to turn to the Nazis and publish a poster, "Heil Hitler," which he agreed very much with the regime.

Q: Let me ask you, during these early years, did you at any time think of settling in Palestine?

A: The event (ph), which is just what I wanted to emphasize, Zionism was very much of a national minority that is you of it, primary understanding for national minority, so the Jews were very satisfied that the League of Nations had adopted a law for protection of minorities and

this vision was that the Viennese Jews in their mass (ph) were least protected by these Jews very conscious of their Jewish culture.

Q: So, how specifically did you get involved specifically with the Betar movement and revisionism, which is obviously a very logical specific type of Zionism?

A: There was at this time a discussion going on whether the Jewish, whether Zionism was really a state or was it a strong movement that we want a bi-national unit at the time and those people, and I knew about it and I was always radical. I was for the state and by then I went into the Congress, I went for the first time in 1935 to Israel when I was...1935, I was 29 years old. I went to Israel, but before this 1935 I went to the Congress in Zurich (ph). Aisha (ph) was a friend of mine. And then I heard Gobutinski's (ph) speech. But I heard him, then I formally joined, like I had heard him already in Catovitz (ph), which was a revisionist a few years before this, as I was very much impressed. He was a most impressive personality. I knew him well. A book came out recently by Shotz (ph) in manages very permanently (ph).

Q: What was it about Gobutinski that impressed you, that type of Zionism?

A: No, it was not only the Zionism, it was the personality. He was an excellent orator and then he came to Vienna. Everybody went to hear him. He didn't advertise what he's talking about. They had a big placard that said, "Gobutinski's Speech", "Gobutinski ." And that was enough to have people come there. And he is not only, I don't think he could give it a specific name. Half of Zionism seems (ph) one and the Jewish state.

Q: Did your activities intensify between...after 1933? I mean you were very active well before 1933, but then, when Hitler came to power, at the time did you see that as a seminal event at the time?

A: I don't remember what I thought at the time. But I was very active in the Jewish community.

The Jewish community has been a assimilical (ph) community with the old people coming to well- to-do Jews who are running it and after that . Many not-well-to-do poor Jews from the East came in as refugees from the Russian advance and they formed the majority finally of the Viennese Jews and I was active in the viacom (ph) in the fight, in the fight, for getting elected into this Jewish community. The Jewish community was something entirely different than it is here or

anywhere. By law, incorporation to which every Jew belongs whether they wanted to or not. And to put, they tax you. If you didn't pay your tax to the Jewish community, the tax of the government taxed your property. They had very officious tactics, this Jewish community.

There was only one way to get out, to declare ousted (ph) of the ; "I don't want to be a Jew any more," and you were not in the Jewish community. So the Jewish community was really direct presentation of the Jews and I was very active for, for the Zionists, for Zionists who finally got the majority.

Q: Now when did you begin to, with the issue of emigration what was termed illegal emigration.

How did you arrive at that as a solution? How did you come to that?

A: When Hitler came to power in Germany, the refugees come over from Germany to Vienna, mainly well-to-do people, and they were in Vienna and their children sometimes had the desire to go to Palestine and they couldn't get visas, certificates from Betar (ph). The Betar (ph) was the strongest Jewish organization in Vienna and you couldn't get any number of certificates

. You know emigration was very limited by ability and the people of the leftist organization, of the liberal group, they got most of the certificates, but the Betar didn't get enough certificates. so one day I was in my office just as I described here, I was a lawyer, and a man came in and said, "I have a message from Dr. Wolfgang , who was a Viennese Zionist from an old Vienna family, a nobility, which was very rare for Jews and his message was, "Bill, Willy, listen to this man, he has something interesting to say", and he suggested that we, he said I have some contact with...he was a Palestinian Jewish Patriot Adventurer, he was a real adventurer, and he said that I have contact with underground in Greece and I suggested following it, rent a boat from these people.

Q: This is 1937?

A: This was 1936, that we...could have been "35. That we rent a boat from them and put our batterime (ph) on it and for people who really want to emigrate and on the way to supposedly going to the Vierra De Tripoli (ph). We really wanted them to be as a very rich and well-to-do, a center of power, a country should be run (ph) and there was much propaganda to go to

the Vierra De Tripoli (ph) and he said, "We ride the boat to go to the Vierra De Tripoli (ph)?" But if we don't come to the Vierra De Tripoli, it was only the batterime (ph) will force the __ to go to Palestine instead and there will be a big stinking develop because Jews from good houses that pilot the ship and go to...

Q: You wanted the publicity...

A: We wanted the publicity in order to point out to the world that in spite of the need to, a land to go to, in spite of what the League of Nations has decided on the strength of that this should be a Jewish nation alone, Palestine, that this is not being done. And..

Q: Was this successful?

A: This is what was suggested to me. His name was Shriebelstein (ph) G-R-I-V-O-L-H-E-I-N (ph) Moshe Grivolhein, Galinin. He changed his to Galinin (ph), and I saw a different _--._--"I said, "This propaganda is very good, but we can do better. We can bring the people in and try to smuggle (ph) them in." He said there would be no problem with the because the problem being in the of this , So try to smuggle (ph) them in but you're going to help us to smuggle them in and we'll smuggle them in once, twice, three times until they catch us; then we will have the publicity, and in the meanwhile, __ you people into Israel. And he agreed to that. This is when we started organizing the first two transports; we did not get enough people to go with the first one, the people were scared to go...

Q: So you had to convince people to...

A: Well, I was a lawyer. I would be able to smuggle them. There was not so much need yet. And so I traveled to Eastern Slovakia, Topachkarusha, Russia (ph) it was called, it was part of Slovakia and there the policy was very great about the Jews and from there you go up to Tareem (ph) to some

I think only two or three batterime (ph) from Vienna of the first 16 people, 15 or 16 that had transports, I have the number here, which to Palestine. Independent of this, which I did not know that Gobutinski had called at one of his articles for breakings of the rules of the British persuasions and to make illegal propaganda and to make it a Jewish spot, but it was already, it had happened.

Q: What part did they leave from in Europe?

A: Different...

Q: Different.

A: Different parts. First you came by train to Greece and then left from Athens, but the problem was that the British demonstrated, the British government demonstrated, with the governments of those countries, that they supported by letting the Jews in. But we needed, they said, "How do you know __illegally into Palestine?" They said, "Because they don't have a visa to go anywhere to." So, we had a man, Dr. Diamand, a very educated scholar, who told us, we formed a small group, The Axion (ph), who was the active action group within the revisionist party, about five or six people, and he told us, "You know the danube is international, it is an international treaty about the danube that you can go down the danube without visa to the seaport, because Britain now intervenes with all these countries, with Slovakia, with Hungary, with Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, that they shouldn't let our ships through. Well, our ships went through without problems, without visa, so we went down the danube until they came with and we did not know, generally assumed, and I am always asked, "How did you get out?" It was no problem to get out; the problem was to get in!

The problem with all of them is the very end, then the problem to get out, of course, it was not possible to get out anymore, because at the same time it was closed, the borders were closed and it was after the Panzer (ph) conference and you can't get out anymore.

Q: Clearly, in the 1930's which we're talking about now, so you're saying the problem wasn't leaving Europe, the problem was nowhere to go, who would accept Jewish refugees at the time.

A: The Germans helped the people travel up in German down the danube with us about 1500 miles I think, so all this ___ to the German ships flying the Nazi flag and they are loaded with refugees and turn in Galas (ph), which is over in the Donow (ph) Delta, in the Delta where the Donow gets into the Black Sea and Gallas (ph), which was the biggest sport which is already on the ocean and Tunashaveshal (ph), which is a small place, which I was informed that Nazis traveled to the grave (ph) ships.

Q: And when you talk about, when you mentioned, you referred before to the Jewish pirates, did they literally force the ships to go to...

A: No. The plan was changed. The plan was changed. They smuggled course and the was a seagoing ship to little boats and the first ships there was nothing on it, no arrangement had been made on the land. They just jumped into the water and fought around, just jumped into the water and swam the little place intending to look for Jewish places where they could hide, but soon the __ took over the distribution.

Q. Right, so, so the first few transports were, in fact, successful?

A. Very successful, because we boated people out. We didn't have so many.

Q. When was the first time a ship was caught, I mean, by the British, you know, at Palestine?

A. I believe the first ship which was caught was at Pareta (ph). Pareta was on the high seas and could not land nowhere. The British had organized and they came too near the border and the British Navy was there and the Air Force, the British Air Force and they blocked their advance so they retreated at Pareta (ph) to some barely little Greek Islands, inlets, in the sea there and seen some and so on and then they got out and they couldn't get through. Well, the Pareta (ph) beach was not run by because it was representative from : [end of side one, tape one]

Q: This a continuation of the U. S. Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with William Perl. This is tape number one, side B.

A: Okay. [had spoken of the Pareta, you asked me the first ship which was caught. I am not sure any more, but the Pareta was one of the first ships...

Q: Now was that at the beginning of the war, the Pareta was around...?

A: It was not war yet, it was the fall of 1937, it was the summer of 1939.

Q: So it was right before the war?

A: Very shortly before the war.

Q: I'd like to go back to 1938...

A: Okay.

Q: And the Aunschluss (ph) and that day and the period following it, do you remember that day?

A: That morning I was in the house of a friend of mine for a sabbath meal Friday evening when we knew all the time that the situation was very dangerous for us there and there was a notice that the Russian (ph) chancellor had received an ultimatum from Germany for complete surrender and Churchill went on the radio while we were eating just after the lighting of the candles and said that he had gotten an ultimatum from Germany to surrender and he does not want to shed blood and that is why he surrenders and that was, that was it.

Q: And, after the Aunschluss (ph), did your Zionist activities or activities related to emigration, did they intensify even more, did you...

A: Everybody first tried to get out. Not everybody, but very many tried to get out and went to the borders and the borders, they are closed. Within the 48 hours the borders were closed. The first people, particularly the Hungarian and Czech borders, which are very close, they are both close and the people who try to escape, they were arrested because to try to escape and were in trouble. Especially in trouble, everyone was in trouble. And, but some very inventive people did not go to these near borders, they went to the far borders of Austria, but Marx (ph) did not go yet, the Viennese Jews, the Austrian Jews, practically all of them lived in Vienna. They went to the

(ph); they went to the Italian border and went into Italy. Dr. Edmund Schechter (ph), who was one of the leaders of the Revisionist organization, he was out that first night because he, instead of going to the border, to the nearest border, he went to a far border and see they still don't know yet about the stream of refugees. And he got in. And Dr. Wolfhef Hofiver (ph) went to the French soldiers, so from Germany to the French border, so he got out.

Q: Was there an intensification of arrests of Jews immediately following the Aunschluss (ph)?

A: Sure, sure. The same night already there are people arrested, a few, but the next day more are arrested, but there are all still Nazis. This was on early Friday, on Sunday the Gestapo moved in, officially till Monday they would be already started.

Q: Were the Zionists targeted? Did you feel especially afraid being your Zionist activities?

A: The first day Nazis went to the houses of the members of the leaders of the community and they arrested the president of the community, Dr. Davidof (ph) Friedman, who perished, was killed.

They arrested Dr. Yachov Ehrlich (ph), who was the, represented, only the regional representative of the Vienna City Council and he was brought to Dachau and four or five days later, there was listed the Viennese community got a letter from the Jewish community in Munich that, "We have the remains of Dr. Yachov Ehrlich, who died in the concentration camp at Dachau. If you want to have the remains, will you please send, tell us to..." and then everybody knew that this means business.

Q: Now you were summoned to the office of Eichmann...

A: I was actually not summoned. I went there because there was older leaders of the organization were summoned to the office, to the Zionist organization's office, which was in the Marcraurel (ph), after the Roman Emperor who founded the City of Vienna, Marcraurel (ph), I think the houses the Zionist offices. And there the leaders were summoned there. But the leaders had fled. and Wolfhef Hofiver (ph) had fled and I was one of the, the three people who were at that time in charge of the Revisionist organization. But they didn't inform me, but I went there.

Q: Why did you go to Eichmann?

A: To meet him, to represent the Revisionists, because the other two had run.

Q: Why did you try to...what did you say to Eichmann? What was...

A: [have had this prepared for you. I might have given it to you already, the memorandum which started the whole thing. I told Eichmann, first of all Eichmann asked me, I didn't have to say anything. He asked me several questions which showed me that he knows conditions in Israel. He asked me about __and so, and he asked me, "How about that Diamand (ph), where is Diamand?" I do not know Diamand. I said, "Who is Diamand?" He said, "Diamand who organized the bulk up (ph) of German Jews in Belgium and Poland." I said, "I do not know about him." They put me on the wall (ph), towards the wall with the face toward the wall and said, "Now I want to know who, where Diamand is and what you know about him."

Q: He was threatening your life if you didn't...

A: What?

Q: Was he threatening your life if you didn't?

A: Sure, he put his gun into my (cough), into my back and said, "I'll give you a second, a second..." How did he put it? He said, "I'll give you a second naber (ph)." And I didn't, he didn't count down yet. And he said, "Now, I'll count down to three and if you don't tell me about where Diamand is and where I can find him, I'll give you, I'll make you a second asshole," and he went a little lower with his rifle, with his gun, which was not a rifle, it was a pistol. And I really did not know him. So I told him, I did some fast thinking, but I was full with fear. I told him, "I don't know about Diamand, but I can tell you something which is much more important for you. It is political information about the possibility of Jewish organizing emigration."

Q: So he was receptive?

A: He was receptive. He went and he was interested in other members of the Betar (ph) who were Erick Deutsch, who was my best friend. Erick Deutsch and I and two or three

members of the Betar went with him after he had___ and _we stayed with him already. We weren't allowed to leave. Went in his car, not in his car, the police van, to the office of the Revisionist organization. And there, you know, they were not very organized yet at the time. And we had been organizing the bulk of German groups, more than anybody else, more than this Diamand and Erick Deutsch had taken older materials referred to the bulk up (ph) German groups and put it into the stairwell at the entrance of that, but the Jew who was around it to pack it was being arrested right away. And he put it out there and they searched the whole office and didn't find it, much about the

bulk up (ph) of German groups (ph). If this is okay, I would say something which is very interesting. In ___ this bulk up (ph) of German groups which started, was started by Gobutinski (ph) right after Germany came to power and the Revisionists were very active, but the Americans were getting into it, too. Gobutinski gave a speech in Bradislav (ph). I came to Vienna and Bradislav is now the capital of Slovakia and was a rather small city, but with a strong Jewish population about 60 miles from Vienna and he gave speech there and we went there all together to

listen to him. And he said, "The Germans want equality. We should not give them equality. They want equality of arms; they want equality of freedom of trade. None of this do they deserve and a man in the audience, a heckler, got up and said, "But Mr. Gobutinski, denying equality means a denial of our own history." And the Betar wanted to get this heckler, to kick him out, and he said, "No, I'll tell you. I'll tell you and, a story." "There was once in Paris, in France, a very well-known patriot, a Marquis who was very patriotic every time the Marciess (ph) was played, or sung, he got up, whatever the conditions and saluted (ph) and one night burglars broke into his house and he reached for his pistol under his pillow and while he, but when as soon as they started, one of them jumped to the spinet and started to play the Marciess (ph) and this Marquis was standing in his nightgown in his bed, saluting, while burglars robbed him of everything he had. What was this man? He said, "Marciess (ph) or the storyteller." "The Marciess is whole (ph) but this man was an idiot!" It doesn't have a lot to do with holocaust, but it tells you a little bit about what type of personality Gobutinski was and, of course, :

Q: So you say the primary concern then was not trying to regain equality but getting Jews out of Europe?

A: Yes. Yes.

Q: Specifically to Palestine?

A: I read this memorandum, I told him I would give him a memorandum and I made out a memorandum which I had to translate into English because the German is so poor I had a carbon copy of it, but the carbon copy is not so good. I think I gave a carbon copy before to the museum, I don't know. But it is very poor, it is hardly legible, and I am now about to translate it, it is three pages long and so at the beginning of the second page it is dear to us and making the Germans understand that this is not really doing something very illegal ___--. Of course, it was illegal, but this memorandum by ____ about, I didn't hear from him, about 10 days later, which I don't know whether it was 10 days, my feeling today is I was sitting in, I was sitting in the outside in the anteroom to the president of the of the Jewish community and Eichmann was one of his bodyguards which came in and Martin (ph) complained that he saw me sitting there and he

pointed me and said, "Oh Cesar (ph) assume Oh Cesar (ph) ".

which is actually nothing will be with it, because we do not want to censor a place for criminality in Palestine. The Jews have to be autobon (ph). At this time, autobon (ph) did mean destroyed into many pieces, into atoms.

Q: So he didn't buy your proposal?

A: No.

Q: So, what did you do?

A: Iwas . I went to Berlin to complain about Eichmann. He was crazy.

Q: Did you, at the time, think you were crazy or were you confident?

A: No, I knew that I have to overcome him, but only three more minutes to Berlin I changed my plan. I will not complain about him, but will try to make it appear that I am upset by him. If they find out, they find out, but the chance that I survive if the plan survived is better than if I say and complain about him.

Q: So...

A: And I went to see Dr. Kareski (ph). Kareski was a lawyer in Berlin who was a Revisionist and he told me, "You are crazy to complain, the second plans are (ph). He said, "What do you need from here?" I think I need permission from the Gestapo to go ahead with the emigration. He said, what do you, I need the Gestapo Eichmann to, not to get special permission but to permit that we do it because the Jewish couldn't do anything without permission. Well, of the Gestapo to organize the next transport and the German lawyer was very practical and said, "You need foreign currency, too?" I said, "Of course, I do." He said, "If you put anywhere, put it all in one

foreign currency." So I went the next day in Berlin where the conditions are still much better than in Vienna because in Germany the percentage of Jews in Germany was much smaller than in Vienna. Vienna was 10 percent Jews in very leading positions. A large percentage of the lawyers, of the doctors, of the physicians were Jews. So, much less anti-semitism and much Nazism going on in Berlin than in Vienna a few days after the Aunschluss, but all Germany was

happy Vienna return of Austria to Germany has never been part of Germany.

Germany has been part of Austria.

Q: When you were in Berlin, which Nazis did you speak with?

A: I don't know his name, but I know, you see, I went to the Ministry of Economics, used to be Ministry, to get permission to use for the emigration foreign currency. And I did not know anybody there so I went in and | said...there was a guard, an armed guard, and he asked, "What do you want?" And I told him, "I want to see Mr. So-and-So." I think I asked him to give me a name, but I'm not sure. I don't think so. I don't think I knew any names and we went into this

, this elevator which went up all the time anymore and to some floor and I went out and I looked at the sign and I didn't know to look for a certain name and somebody with an impressive title, but went in with two of his favorshein (ph) and told him we had been sent from Vienna in regards to the emigration of Jews. It was very important and he listened to me very attentively and said, "It is very interesting, but I have nothing to do with it. See Mr. So- and-So." So I went to Mr. So-and-So and told him, "Mr. So-and-So, there was already somebody.

They sent me to you. We are sent from Vienna and we are sent by the authorities in Vienna, not by the Betar (ph)." And he listened and said, "I have nothing to do with it." But, I said, "Who has to do with it, with the foreign currency?" Oh, he sent me to the right man and I repeated it for a third time the story and he was impressed. Everyone wanted to get rid of the Jews since I made it clear the situation had changed completely with of Austria and there is I say a memorandum too. And he said, "Let me have a memorandum." And I made the memorandum which I asked for Vienna and made a few adjustments I had it typed and it describes

buildings where and went back to them and give it to them on the first day it was and two days later, or three days later, I got the permission for 2,000 people, 12 pounds in foreign currency. We originally and we now started to tell the people, "Get your passports." The Battarime (ph) started to get their passports and the word soon spread that you can go with the Betar (ph) with the Paragon (ph) which they were soon called, because on the door of the office of my lawyers was written, Dr. Willy Perle, _ transport and people came in

and one day shortly after apparently a neighbor had reported some suspicious looking men or Jews meeting there and the police came and raided us. And I showed them the permits from Berlin. This way Eichmann learned, Eichmann learned that I had the permission from Berlin and he shut up. He did not know more. And from this moment on, he played along very nicely.

Q: So he wasn't angry at you, that you sort of went around his back.

A: He did not know. He did not know. I don't think he knew how I worked it. He just knew that the police had raided our office and that we had the permission from Berlin with currency even from Berlin. He didn't, the German proverb, "If you have a boot on your head you don't go into the sun; if you boot (ph) on your head, you don't go into the sun." He had been overruled. And he didn't want to see our trouble, I believe, so he went along with it.

Q: So at this point in the late, after the Aunschluss...

A: That was in May of 1938.

Q: Okay, so you were still arranging for the transports from various ports still in Europe?

A: At this time, I was very attached alone still in the ship operations, only one. I give him the money, 2,000 pounds, that he goes to Greece and gets us a boat and he came inside the boat, but in the meanwhile I was arrested. I was arrested in the, I think it was for my axion (ph) my action (ph).

was arresting Jews by the hundreds, just by then somebody the name outside, dentists or what, they looked into the houses and somebody and they arrested them. And I thought when they arrested me it might have to do something with the transports and we had a meeting of the Betar, Erick Wolfe (ph), and I don't know who else from the Betar there and I was to but I should report to the police because the police had been at my office and said that I should come to the police about to question me. They wanted to ask me some questions. And the probability was that they just wanted to arrest me, but we decided since it is possible that news from Favorshein (ph). We were very nervous because Favorshein (ph) had stayed already a long time he was not known. If he was 2,000 pounds. Everyone connected with this would have been arrested; they would have been

killed before cheating the government out of foreign currency. We would have been killed right away. But, in the meanwhile, Favorshein (ph) came back.

Q: So how long were you in the jail? You were in jail...

A: I was in the , in the emergency jail. There was a full . Twas in the emergency jail in the Catayanga (ph) Vienna, a very Jewish district, just one night.

Q: Okay. And when you, after you were released and you continued with your activities involved in the shipping and...

A: How was I released? How was I released? First of all, I was . I did not have the chance, I was afraid they'd say now finish the work for our people outside who are organizing the Battarime (ph) is looking for them and have their passports ready and so on, so we went in prison in the basement, it was not a prison, of a school and there was a window up there and out this window you could see the soldier patrolling and he used a certain time to come back again and then the fingers when he was close to the end, we threw, we threw out the paper, several papers

little balls of paper which we had prepared information and one woman came by and I saw a woman's feet and shoes so | threw it out and I was sitting on somebody's, I don't remember whether I did it, it might have been somebody else who did it, sat on the shoulders of another guy at the window and threw out a little ball of paper which was written, " help us. Bring this notice to decencies (ph)" and she brought it to the people and they ordered the transports to come out and and next day I was, next morning, or afternoon, I was going to the office of the man who was in charge of this business, he was a viennese overlord or first lieutenant of police. And he asked me, "Do you know somebody so-and-so?" I said, "I don't know." I know so many people, I don't know. He said, "He claims that you have your passport." "How come you have his passport?" So Isaid,"I don't have _ already there are 100 passports." I said, "I don't have only his passport, but I have some 300 passports." He said, "What?" I said, "Yes, I have some 300 passports." "How come you serving (ph) passports?" I said, "Because I am overriding the emigration of Jews from Vienna is all." And then, the intentions are (ph), he said, "Haahaaa(ph)" "Where are they at now?" I said, "I can't do anything, you keep me

in -" So he called Dr. Langen. Dr. Langen was the Chief of the Gestapo, he was later on in the Panzer . He said, "Eichmann is not superior.

Eichmann was only responsible for Jewish questions. There were other problems, too." And he asked for Eichmann, first he asked for Eichmann. My mother, the mother of all the Jews who went out, Eichmann was not in. So superior. And he says, "I have a Jew here who claims that he is organizing transportation where there was no illegal transport emigration for Jews can take place unless it is out of . And he says, "Okay, you are released." He asked me, "When does your transport leave?" I told him about nine days ago, the hour, __._ And he says, "Oh fooey (ph), anything information from Jewish ___. So I told him again, exactly what time. I told him the time. I told him what time at which the train was probably leaving at the railroad station from which it was leaving. He said, "You go, you are out and on the train which is supposed to leave at 9:30 in the evening by 10:30 you have to be here to report here." I said, "I won't look." I said, "Why don't you?" He said, "Because I can't do it alone." I said, "What happened?" I said, "My operator, is here too. He's out and I can't do a thing." He said, "Okay for and he (ph) had Erick Deutsch called in and Erick Deutsch entered and saw me sitting there with the police officer and the police officer asked him, "Do you know this man?" And he said, "Yes." "Who is it?" "Dr.

Perl." "What do you know about him?" And do you know what he said? He said, "He is a very good man." "What else do you know about him?" " , he is interested in Jewish matters." I told him, "Tell him the whole story." So he told it. And the attitude, that without me the whole thing cannot take place. He said, "Okay, you both go (ph)." I said, with us in prison too . We were for two days.

Q: Now, when you talk about, in other words, Nazi cooperation with this plan for Jewish emigration, were there in fact Jews released from concentration camps?

A: Well, about it.

Q: For this specific purpose?

A: Yes, it was impossible to get out of concentration camps, but if somebody had a little slip of paper where we confirm that somebody was registered to go with us for the next transport, he , unless there was some specific reason to hold him there. There were specific reasons why somebody was arrested there is a German woman he wants, but if somebody was arrested just for being Jewish he was out.

Q: So there must have been maybe this feeling of great frustration that here you had the cooperation, in effect, of the Nazis in trying to get Jews out of Europe, which is what you wanted as well...

A: Yes.

Q: And other countries weren't being receptive in terms of letting Jews in.

A: Lused to think of the others as to get the Jews out. I was absolutely single- minded.

Q: Alright.

End of tape 1.

Tape 2

Q: Maybe you'd just like to continue to talk about the immediate period after your release.

A: Well, I had not to get the permission to get the out we didn't have from , but fortunately the next day a letter from arrived from Rome, that everything is okay. So I then, there was a man in Vienna, whom nobody . His name was Gildemeser, G-i-l-d-e-m-e-s-e-r, a Dutchman, who was trying to help the Christian Jews. Because there were Jews who had been baptized for generations, but for the Nazis they were Jews and that was a special mission, Jews spy of the Gestapo. But I went to him, I saw against the Gestapo and I told him that we have for it and that I can't do it, I, I need more time. moment, I took this letter from, from , from the Hotel Continental in Rome and I took the envelope and in that letter for different content. He'll take out 500 and thousand and 5,000 and 10,000 and 35 by somebody with our typewriter, doctor, she, who was a physician to Jews in the Jewish hospital, Jewish . And she is a big thing, is growing, is wonderful and so on and with this I went to Gildemeser, I said, "Look what, what they want to do, they want to bring the Jews out and they want..." So he said, "Wait a moment." And he called a friend of his, Dr. Rayakovich, Dr. R-a-y-a-k-o-v-i-c-h was a Viennese lawyer, he was the son-in-law of Wilford Rintlen, R-i-n-t-l-e-n, who had been one of the leader of the putsch, p-u-t-s-c- h, in which the Nazis tried to take over Austria by internal, not revolution, action, in which , the consul of Austria was murdered. This was about a year or two years before that.

And he was connected with the family, was the son-in-law and this doctor, this Mr.

Wilhelm , Dr. Rayakovich had told him the story. So, he me on the with Dr. Rayakovich and I went with Dr. Wistool(ph) to Dr. Rayakovich with the, the Jews, support of what we had to , this letter from, from envelope sent from Italy and a brief, a little briefcase, full with passports. And when I entered there and , by coincidence, this box opened, it was not a attache case, it was a box, the box opens and many passports fell out, it was just in order to impress him.

really not talking, nonsense cause we have, there's something gone crazy about our.

If I told you whole story to Rayakovich and Rayakovich called Dr. Lange(ph) and told Dr.

Lange(ph) the story and Dr. Lange(ph) said, I didn't hear what Lange(ph) said, but I know what Rayakovich told, "You go back to the, to the, , you have to be there on this

, it was about four, three or four days later and you will be released there. And you will continue working for this, okay? That's what we need." We came back to this prison,

, it was not a prison, was a school and the streets to the school were closed, were closed by police, you couldn't get in, but we said we want to get in, we have orders, so they let us in, we came by a taxi and as we came there, they were loading Jews on buses. I didn't yet know what it was, but I know it's something bad. And I came in and said, "I want to speak to Dr. Lange(ph), I have a message to him." They said, " go into this hall," this SS man said. I said, "But," he said "No but." And kicks me and toa things in line to be shipped out. No, there was no shipping out yet here, not from this room. We were just in line there and we were standing in line there and came in, with one... No, first a sergeant came in, an SS non-commissioned officer , lined us up in rows, we were standing around here in the, in the , the gymnasium of the school. And lined us up in rows of two or three and one of the guys there fell to the floor and he has apparently the epilepsy seizure. And one of the, the three Nazis who had entered, or four Nazis first, and organized us into lines, got to him and shouted to him, "Get up," . And he didn't get up, so he kicked him with his boot, heavily and he didn't, still didn't get up. So he kicked him a second time, now blood came out of his mouth and he kicked him to death, apparently he, until he couldn't move any more. Shortly after this Eichmann(ph) came in and Eichmann(ph) he had stick, how do you call this little stick?

Q: The little thin stick ?

A: Some people for, for, it was supposed to be elegant to have a short stick which you twirl.

Q: Right.

A: And he has, has a stick and came in and everyone was lined up and he asked, "Who volunteers for," he said, how did he say it? "Who volunteers to go for, to Dachau?" And some people ahead, stepped out. He says, "Why do you want, why do you want to go to Dachau?" Said, "Because I want to get it all over with." He said, "Good, you stay here, but you all are going to Dachau." We were in , you know, to go out and when we, on the way to the door, it was already from the door, were these, we knew the buses are waiting outside as far away as . I shouted to the man who was the SS man, who was in charge there, in a military tone, "I'm reporting that I have important political information for Dr. Lange." He said, "What do you want, Jew?" I said, "I have important information for Dr. Lange(ph), if it doesn't get to him right away, you will be responsible for it." So he, Lange(ph) was about 10 steps

, so he brought he us to Lange(ph), Lange(ph) seemed not to remember for a moment, but then he remembered, he says, "Yes, these two people go out." And we went out. And now everything was fully permitted.

Q: Maybe, now could you tell what happened in the following time period as the months progress, some of your activities?

A: On the ninth of June we were ready had the ship ready and we were ready on the ninth of June to leave Vienna with some 360 . (pause) on the June ninth we left Vienna, you know?

A2: Yes. Because...

A: On June ninth...

A2: ...on the June 10th you went to London.

A: On June ninth, they transported some 300 odd people, I have the number in the book, to, to the helicopters the numbers.

A2: What's your name? You took it away?

Q: Oh, here.

A: Ob here it is, right here.

Q: Do you need more light?

A: I would like to, yeah. . This would be better.

A2: You know, that's fine what you did, just . See? It needs the motherly touch.

Q: Yes.

A2: So, will you eat lunch?

A: 386 people left on the transport on the ninth of June, mainly , everybody had the chance to come along, we got money from the Jewish community and there were many others left to 386 but I might estimate about 300 of them were and the others were Jews whom we took along.

Q: Did, was there ever a time period, in terms of arranging these transports, where you were in a position where you had to choose, like you do the choosing in terms of who would actually be on the transport?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you want younger people?

A: It was the most difficult, it was the most difficult thing, as the times became more difficult, it was, to tell somebody that you can't come along was a death sentence and there is one kid who shall never forget, which still me. I was in Budapest and according to an arrangement with the police, I could take Jews out of the jail, with the people who had come over the border from Czechoslovakia or Poland without papers and were in Hungarian jails and, and I had, it was a condition for their cooperating with us, take a certain number of Jews from Hungarian jails and from Hungary along and they, they brought me to, I says, "I want to interview them." And they brought me, there was a man about 40, 45 years old, in the cell there and I was to interview him and when I came in he knew that how important it is, but he didn't finish his

, he was praying a prayer, which must not be interrupted. And I spoke to him and he looked to me like he would like to be taken along. And I said, "Now has he a wife?" He said, "The wife , " he did know something which torpedoed the whole thing, the wife was very badly, is very, she's very sick. We couldn't take sick people along. So I was taken to see the wife in the same prison in another room and she was spitting blood and she had apparently

quite advanced tuberculosis, or anyhow she was not a candidate and I had to tell him that they cannot go along. This still oppresses me because no doubt they ended up in Auschwitz. But you had, had to make the decision whom we take along all the time. First of all we took along young people, who were able to withstand any problems of the trip which was very problematic how we do it. Each boat was different. And then people who were Jewish, Jewish commitment was the first thing, if possible, they had the priority Jewish commitment and young. And then people who were needed for , means somebody who was not so young, but was a nurse, we took her along, physicians we took along, although out of us. these positions very often and it became more and more until we were promised everything. Money and jewels and women and one guy promises he has a 35 notarized letter from a relative of his who has a little photo store in Brooklyn, they go to the restaurant, that I would be half partner, we would be half partners in it.

Q: Uh-huh. So people tried to sort of like make deals, or bribe their way...

A: Of course they did. They tried to save their lives.

Q: When you chose young people or people who had, you know, needed professions such as in medical care, etcetera, was that just, for the, the, the ride itself, the transport itself or were you thinking ahead in terms of the Yushuv(ph), in terms of...

A:l I heard of the need to fight the British . To fight the fight for liberation.

Q: All right, I see.

A: You see, what we did is we took on the British Empire, you see, we were six people, five, the sixth one was not so healthy from the beginning and we took on the British Empire.

Q: And after this, you went to London, at...

A: on the ninth, they took a transport there and talk to the, to them, to the , they were flabbergasted, the Nazis. As I came to the, to the railroad stations, there was Lange(ph), Lange(ph) and Eichmann(ph) and Tryacowich(ph) standing, so I didn't know how to greet him, what should I tell them? And Tryacowich(ph) came to me and reached my hand

and said, "Good evening, Herr ." And it was quite and I decided then and afterward that I will leave after the war, if he's in trouble, I'll help him. But I didn't, I couldn't because he was accused in Austria and convicted of war crimes against Austrian refugees but he was also in Holland responsible for the deportation of Anne Frank, who, my real desire, but without him the whole thing wouldn't have worked. There were many happy circumstances and I was one of those who was responsible for the whole thing. But I couldn't testify for him. I could have testified that he is at the bottom of the rescue of many thousands of Jews.

Q: How many, do you know approximately how many were rescued through this transport means?

A: Yes, yeah, the opinions vary between 20,000 and 40,000. I say it was at least 40,000 British statistics, which I will probably . You see, was hard

German, because the ships changed their names during that and it helped many people, their own, you see, there was no official transportation any more, because the Mediterranean become a war zone. Many people rented a little sailboat and came over. And here, here has the British statistics, which you probably will want to photograph. There's the document, too.

Q: Will you just state the name of the book that you're taking this information from?

A: Yeah, photograph The Forefront War, I think there are photographs here.

Q: The Forefront War.

A: Here they are. No, there are not photographs here. But I'll give you a copy of the statistics.

have some photographs here.

Q: So this...

A: The British , was from the fall of 1939 to the end of the, of the Nazi empire, some 21,000 people immigrated illegally into Palestine. Now, if you think this is a , which is probably generally correct, then you have to know that, in, in the fall of 1939, we had already

many thousands of people into the country. We started in, in June, on

, the ninth of June, 1938. Which was one reason, the second reason were ships

changed their names and many people came in on their own, so I, I believe that the British knew only of about half of the people, though I asked them, they said 40,000 people roughly, who entered Palestine illegally, since we started this...

Q: So this is, this is quite a large rescue operation.

A: Well, ,

Q: Okay. Now at this point, we're just going chronologically, you, you went to London?

A: I went to London.

Q: When was this?

A: I go, how do you get to London?

Q: L, my question, how could you get to London?

A: Gildemeser has contact with the British embassy and he got me an English visa and I wanted to go to London to speak with Jabotinsky(ph) to organize it on a large scale and to can organize it without a, I didn't think that the Germans would want giving of foreign currency, because...

Q: So you were nervous at some point this was going to be cut off?

A: Yeah. And I wanted to organize it in the other countries too, in Poland, Poland wasn't

yet, but it was clear it was coming, Russian and for this I wanted to speak with Jabotinsky(ph) and ask him to, you know. I got the visa through Mr. Gildemeser and spoke to Jabotinsky(ph) and Jabotinsky(ph), he said, he organized it from the, through the

, he was losing , which was not until then the first ships landed, just and they, then they looked on every ship will be an Ergoon(ph) representative on every seagoing ship and and then who he sends from Vienna or from wherever a ship lands to be in charge, would remain in charge officially, but actually he would be, who would have to consult his, about everything we see Ergoon(ph) man. And when we, when we, we come to the landing operations, then the Ergoon(ph) takes over.

Q: Now you're mentioning frequently the, the Ergoon(ph) and the cooperation of the Ergoon(ph).

A: Yeah.

Q: Was, within the Zionist framework, the Ergoon(ph) was, you know, one segment that of course, there was a lot of opposition to the Ergoon(ph), even within the Zionist world.

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: Did you, was there opposition to what you were doing, I'm talking about within the Zionist community?

A: Yes, very much opposition. The Jewish establishment was against it because they wanted to get good, on good terms with the British and they figured that they need the British after the war, the war was coming, there was no doubt about that. But after the war, they'll need the British for they, whatever they wanted to and to annoy the British they didn't understand what we understood, that it is not a question of favor that you do to somebody, international politics is a question of power. So they, they were against us. soldiers? No. Well. Jabotinsky asked an official if, from the Jewish establishment, I think I saw it now here, cause I have all the documents. Not all the documents, many documents disappeared, but I have many documents. Here, the for German-Jewry, a letter to Mr. Jabotinsky(ph), maybe you can read it, I would need the magnifying glass.

Q: Okay, further reference to your letter of the fifth, on continuation of mine of the eighth, I've requested to inform you that, at a meeting of the executive of the Council for German-Jewry, held yesterday, the application for a grant to the 380 emigrants from Austria, who recently reached Palestine, was again considered with great care. The executive of the council strongly deprecates all emigration which is not properly organized and which does not make proper provision for the welfare of the emigrants. The executive cannot in any way encourage illegal immigration into Palestine and for this reason, cannot make any contribution towards the object which your letter refers.

A: It was the official .

Q: Right, from the Council for German Jewry.

A: Yeah.

Q: And this was also published in The Forefront War.

A: published, you have the photograph here .

Q: Right, so for example did this reflect, you mentioned Jabotinsky(ph) and your connections with Jabotinsky(ph), obviously being that you were in , did you have any connection or corroboration from Bengorian(ph)?

A: No, no but they started about four months after that, was young people, all went to

to people and there are people that are stuck, they started the same thing, they start, jumped on the, jump on the bandwagon and there was a few accidents, the was an accident. There were people perished when the horrible accident was

people were murdered by the Germans, but they brought many people, of these 40,000, I estimate about more than half came from the, from the , from the

Q: The labors, the , the labor Zionists.

A: Yeah.

Q: So, but in other words, what, the Batar(ph) transports really set the trend, that you had started this and they had sort of jumped...

A: away. away.

Q: I see and was there tension between the, these two groups?

A: No. But there was no local , in much later stage only, there was some cooperation.

Q: Right, so initially there was no tension but not, no cooperation either?

A: Right.

Q: Okay. Now when you were in London, speaking with Jabotinsky, how long were you in London for?

A: From the 10th of June, for about, for about four weeks...

Q: And then?

A: And then, and then, in the meanwhile, could have been six weeks, in the meanwhile, the, the revisionist who stayed behind has fallen out with Galini(ph). I don't know why, I think it was over some person, personal ambition involved some the people who were left behind and they went out without to Athens and they, two people from the Batar(ph) were " who was a member of the of leaders, leaders...

Q: Leadership.

A: Batar(ph) and, and Paul Heller(ph), who was in Vienna and also journalist, whom I admired very much, he was a , but he was a political genius. to Greece and to land ships there, they have some contact with the Viennese refugee in Athens, a Mr.

Rosenblatt(ph) and they rented the ships there, so . show them the ship and say , a small person ship and say, now we went back to Vienna, to organize the transport and they wanted to go over Italian, Italian town Italian town Italians were very good, you know, Holocaust matters. When they came to the , there was no ships there and the Italians said we can't let you in unless you get out. And they were in trouble and Jabotinsky(ph) ordered me now to go back to Europe and straighten, try to straighten things out. There's very mixed feeling after having .

Q: So you had gone, when you went to London, you thought that you would stay there, you saw that as your escape?

A: I thought that I had escaped but I authorized from there the money and the coordination with the Ergoon(ph). And they knew countries where you could still travel at that time. But I couldn't, I had to go back.

Q: So where did you go back to?

A: To Fumer(ph).

Q: And what did you do, once you arrived in Fumer(ph), what was your?

A: I tried to get the permission to let the people come through, although there was no ships there. In the meanwhile, a group of , 200 or so had arrived from, from Poland,

from Danzig, I think and were hidden there. The police knew about it. In the synagogue, in the basement of a synagogue, to go and ship, but there was no ship coming and when one

catastrophe, the people are sitting on the, the rails, on the station and they're on a little border village, in a railroad and they couldn't leave the cars and the stench was horrible because they couldn't go and you had to use the toilet and everything collected under, under there and it was a very bad condition and I called Eichmann(ph) and told him he should try and he said, he said, "You, you, you, you, you do it else I send them to Dachau. If you don't , they'll go to Dachau." Well I told him I was prepared for this, 1 am prepared for this and they are prepared for this, you know of the, story of the , have...

Q: A massive :

A: ...many suicides. and will be very bad publicity for you.

Q: Did you just think of that like on the spur of the moment?

A: No, I was prepared for it...

Q: With that reasoning, to use that?

A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was prepared for it. And they came back, he said, he, he, after about 10 days, no ship. He sends them back, they came back and said not send to Dachau and they were then, the same people to those others, more, less or and on the

too, on the, one the sixth or seventh of November, 1938, two or three days before the Kristallnacht. And here I was not and one day, after, before the , | had contacted, I didn't contact a Greek, big, smuggler organization, who knew about this complication, the ship did not come because they had rented and paid the 2,000 pounds which they had. To somebody who had nothing to do with the ship, we showed them the ship, were

crook. And this was the terrific, the danger for everybody, but this, the

organization knew about it and said, they sent a man to negotiate with me. And I told him, he said, you, I'm very glad that you hired me because there's a big opportunity. You have smuggled, you have smuggled liquor into the United States until the days of Prohibition, the Prohibition was over by then. I said now you can smuggle with much bigger profits and a much

larger , millions of Jew, instead of booze, we will smuggle Jews. And this, , he says, he, I agree with him up to , that they sent the ship to Fumer(ph), without any pay, before they said you transfer to us the for these 2,000 pounds you are , you will never get it out, but we small, small fry, we will get the money from them. So I give them a down payment, they lost 2,000 pounds, I think it was 2,000 pounds to them and the ship came to , came from some North African port to Fumer(ph), about...

[end of side one of tape 2]

A: Okay, what was the last thing?

Q: Using the, the Greeks and to smuggle, smuggle Jews in the...

A: Yeah. there, the 200 about people I have to accept goes in here, who have, who have been brought over with, from, by carts and are hiding in the synagogue basement. And then there were about 80 or 90 other people who had heard in France and in Southern Italy that there is a possibility to escape here and loaded onto ships, a ship left half empty. It was the, the strip of without any problems, the landed . It was the first transport without , I think it was very bad , out of the because was a very capable man. He probably wanted to make some money too, I wouldn't have minded if he, as long as he gets the people out.

Q: Were there accusations of people, such as yourself or your colleagues who were involved in the, arranging the transports at, people who were in it for themselves, trying to make money, did that accusation, did...

A: Not an accusation, accusation that anybody has stolen money or abused money, but I had of course enemies, particularly around Jabotinsky's(ph), there were a few people who were just , German Jew and there were Russian Jews and who were big people in the organization, so now the whole organization didn't , only it. And there was one guy, , who was very much against me and he

got him to for me, that I account for money, which was impossible to account for money. First of all they never gave me any money, I never got a penny money from the organization. I had it organized so that the people who had money paid for those who had not money. And I got the foreign currency somehow, on the black market, I heard somebody, and very poor in financial matter. But how could I keep account of what I spend in minute was, was to be decided, it was not controllable anyhow, perhaps somebody with 10, 10 dollars, with 500 dollars or 100 dollars. So I refused because this, this was a take valuable time, I refused to give him an account of this. So I was suspended. But very short times after, changed again and I was , I don't know whether there was any, there no accusations of this , but there was accusations that I refused to, to give account of the moneys used. I was, every second was taken and there was, were many bribes, how could you do that? And I was completely again and Jabotinsky(ph) intervened in this matter, 200 was ;

Q: Okay. Now, if you could just talk about the time, this, between this time period and the actual beginning of, of the war, September "39. So you continued in, in these activities, you were in Italy?

A: I was in Italy, I was in Romania then and one ship after the other came down the Danube. First in the two ships who the people from Fumer(ph). I don't know which time , | don't know which time because that was the name of the boat, it was Arnosdstein, A-tr-n-o-s-d-s-t-e-i-n, which was the boat , Austria, Italy people for sometime, without being able to do anything and I took all these people, who have made an who were ready to go out on I think on the seventh of November, we won't here or Kristallnacht would be coming. another 200 on the next two ships, it was the second ship, voyage of the Draga(ph), Draga(ph) 2, but the new ship, which , he was the, he was the head of this smuggler organization, a very decent man and since, many difficulties. I mean there was a difficulties, no not there was no difficulty. And then there was a string of ships going around. And always we had to go and fight against the of the British. But the, the were stronger in the

beginning than they were later, because I, I had very much chutzpah, as you can see and I went to the British embassy in Bucharest and I said, "I want to speak to Ambassador." "What do you want?" "I want to speak to him about illegal transportation." So I didn't see the ambassador, I saw somebody else and told him, "You are, complaining that you are interfering with our actions. We cannot do our actions." He says, "What do you mean? You are, you are breaking British law, don't you know?" I said, "Don't you know, don't you see, doesn't this come to your mind, that how could we, with our, with our, old ships which are ready for, for the old iron, old, old, old heap of iron. How could we fight and break, break the British navy and the British Air Force?

The whole thing is of course a sham against us, these actions are because the British actually are supporting us." I said, "I'll find out," I said, "you, you, if you are Rome, about, about what's the that'll show that you are not a diplomat but a clerk, because it is so clear cannot say "And also because the documentary said, it's, his office from about and we want to know are we really against it or are we with it? I believed it actually, the British were with us, but of course they were not. I was in the jails of most of the Balkan countries, because the British since I was usually arrested and, but after a few days I always got out, because the Balkan countries were interested to get rid of the Jews and with every ship that went through with refugees from Germany or from Poland, we took Jews from the Balkan countries, but they didn't keep me, they, they west of the British but I got out usually, after intervention by the Ergoon(ph).

Q: What was the intervention?

A: The intervention was that, that Jabotinsky(ph) has agreed with , that it would be best if the Jews would be evacuated as fast as possible from Romania.

Q: So they had contact with government officials and they, they're, made it clear to them that...

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: Okay, now in, and were there other Zionists who opposed the idea of the Ergoon(ph) talking with the quote unquote, the enemy, talking with...

A: Sure, sure.

Q: Antonesco(ph).

A: Sure. Jabotinsky(ph) was very much attacked for talking to the Premier of Poland, I forgot who it was, shortly before, about a year before the invasion of Poland started. They spoke to him and said, " Poland was, was for the immigration of Jews and so on." And Jabotinsky(ph) was accused of making deals with the anti-Semites. I made deals with the anti-Semites, I made a deal with the people in Berlin about the transport and you asked me about, about people getting out of concentration camps, so far that, that we were forced to take people from there, for one reason or the other, out of the concentration camp. There was one case where the people were assembling on the, on the pier of the Danube to be loaded and we had soldier for already of loading the ship to, to maximum anyhow. period, about 100 to 120 people, whom we . And them but the the office in Vienna said we can't take them. Eichmann(ph) said, "They'll go either on the Danube or into the Danube." He had a, this ability to formulate very sharply , of course

went on the Danube. We had usually more people on the boat than we planned to.

There were always people, crooks, who sold tickets for our ships. had nothing to do.

There was one ship which was called Lost , which had nothing to do with me, some travel agent, some Romanian travel agent, with some , which he called

and everybody thought it a ship organized by me and he had no for landing at all. And the miracle was, , his ship landed without any problem. Had less problems than any other. Oh, I was, I was in Toolcha(ph), Steamship Carteen(ph)

one of my ships which were loaded already, to the full, from Toolcha(ph), we went into a little Bulgarian port. I don't remember the name right now,

supposed to , pick up a few Bulgarian Jews, until suddenly burst out a group of Jews, about 50 or 60 and over there. , and of course I didn't, I didn't squeeze them out.

Q: Mm-hm. And...

A: boats, tickets for the boats, from the police, from the police in Romania. Had nothing to do with us.

Q: In 1940 you were arrested in Greece and I understand you were then put on a train for Berlin?

A: Yeah. In 19, 1940, correct, yes.

Q: Who, who arrest, that was the Gestapo who arrested you?

A: No, the , police of the aliens. Aliens police, document . Not from the police but we are from the embassy, Romanian embassy where Dr. has already been arrested and has been deported already. And so I was to be deported to Germany, where Eichmann(ph) was , because I once was for what he called impertinent to him. I spoke to him from Bucharest, regarding I don't know what it was any more, regarding the transport, there was some trouble in Vienna, straighten things out and he told me come here and straighten things out, I said, "I have no intentions to come back to Vienna." He said, or if you or, free passage, you and that's all he here, safe and I don't want you , free. I'm a free Jew here and I don't need your free passes.

Q: So, he must have been...

A: And he argued, we'll still get you pal. Then I was in the train to Germany, cause...

Q: And what happened, you didn't get to Germany, what happened?

A: No, we came to the border of Yugoslavia, to the Greek Yugoslavia, border of , I don't know the name now of , in my books, I say. See this village, the train stops and I went to the, it was the Yugoslav border and I was safe as long as I was in Greece, because Greece doesn't border Germany, but Yugoslavia borders Austria and Austria was Germany. Once I was in Yugoslavia, I was to Eichmann(ph). So I thought that with God who traveled with me, cause I have to go to the toilet and I went train was stationed , at that time they stopped the, at, Igomene(ph), Igomene(ph) was the name of the station, I-g-o-m-e-n-e.

very long and to the toilet and I had hidden in my jacket, , razor blades. And I cut myself with razor blades intending to kill me.

Q: Slit your wrists?

A: I think it, until a few years ago it could still be seen, I think it can still be seen here.

Q: Mm-hm, in your veins.

A: Yeah. And so wanted to kill myself and I felt oh, what kind of death, what kind of death is it? In the dirty carriage of Greek railroads in the station in the toilets, stinking and I was, I didn't lose conscience, but I was not conscious, I was, I knew what was going on, but in a haze, but my blood had come through the door and then the guard noticed what had happened and they broke in the door and brought me out and fortunately on this train was a doctor from, a Yugoslav doctor. And I told him what it is about it, that if I stay on this train, I'll be delivered to the Germans which is death is to me and I prefer to be dead. So he helped me. He said that I'm not, I cannot be, transports , I'm not in the condition to be transported and I was brought to the house of a Greek farmer on the border, on the border. I never have seen as many turtles in my life, there were turtles and

turtles and turtles. And I stayed there for four or five years, or for longer and then the,

send somebody up, he spoke to the, the not far from :

Q: How'd they know where you were?

A: How did they know where I were? British woman, , who informed the Ergoon(ph) about it and the Ergoon(ph) came and , tabbi of, chief rabbi of

and asked him to , the Jews were , to influence the government to let me go. And he said, " this criminal, he's a slave dealer. I don't want to have anything to do with it. He's smuggling Jews into Palestine against the law, he is smearing the image of the Jews, I don't want to have anything to do with him. About two years later he was deported with his community, entire community to Auschwitz. But I went out and now I

them to transfers from here, first to sto jail and from jail to , which is the port of Athens, to be deported to somewhere else. There I met, came to visit me, a monk, Franciscan monk. I thought that he was, would want to convert me but he just was pure goodness, nothing else. He tried to help me, he got

me a Portuguese visa for father, father confessor for this Portuguese embassy, Portuguese or Catholic and he got me from them a Portuguese visa and he got me to be on the same side for Venezuela, boat which I had bought through him, through another Jew, who worked with the , because he's . In the, in the house and I visa for Venezuela, visa was forged and finally I got out of and through to Portugal. I tried to get to the other , half of Europe because I knew the , divide you up into two and any moment will the real start and I wanted to get on the side of the, of these things, I was to Portugal. I had an Portuguese visa and from Portugal, to get Cape of Good Hope, because the by then beyond battleground.

Q: So you wanted to go to Palestine, that's initially where you wanted to...

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: ...to settle?

A: I wanted to go to Palestine. But I'd got a ship, I found a ship, I learned there, after I was released from the hospital I was arrested by the Portuguese because they said the visa is not valid, but it was a good visa. But they arrested me anyhow and I was brought to a hospital because had placed this again, but this time not serious. They brought me to a hospital and from this hospital I was then released and with the condition that I leave Portugal within a certain length of time, I believe a month. In the meanwhile France had fall and many refugees had come over from France into Portugal. And I found out or somebody else found out that you can get visas to Shanghai. So I got the visa to Shanghai and visa for a ship, a ship, there were no ships from Portugal to Shanghai. You to Mozambique, which is all, was all Portuguese east of . And from there you try to get a ship to Shanghai. And I got on a ship to Portuguese and found out the ship landed on the various Portuguese possessions, one of them was Saint Tomay(ph) and so I went there to American Consul in Saint Tomay(ph), asked for visa and they had numbers, they had quarter numbers for Jews in Saint Tomay(ph) on the

island of Saint Tomay(ph) in the, in the Atlantic. This the reason try to prevent the Jews to be rescued. What Jew know, knew of the existence of Saint Tomay(ph)? So Mozambique and in Mozambique I made money. I, it was the time of the blitz in London and many people who had, especially London, to call up and there was, there were these money, money changers in the port. , but money changers and some of the money changers sold the very inexpensively. And I bought, I had some about 40 pounds was 200 dollars or so and for all the money I had, pounds very cheaply, but as more money changed, and boats was much more for it. Then I took this much more money boat, this is four, five times and money, a few hundred dollars. And then I got a visa for, a

visa for the United, for the United States, so I had a visa, valid visa for Venezuela, which was for . I didn't even know he was , L, I presumed because it was his wife him, out there. And so I asked him, "Baltimore?" And went right away walk into the Venezuelan embassy, to have the visa certified that it is valid and there was a crossed it out and said not valid. However, and

soon after the war broke out and I joined the army and ;

Q: Then you were, you were already married?

A: I was married in Vienna already.

Q: When did you get married?

A: On the 17th of April, 1938, after the Nazis have been Vienna already a month, which was certainly against the law, because Laura was an Aryan and was against the Jewish law too, because her converting had not been completed yet. But she wanted to help me and there was a friend of mine , he had a , he married us, but warned us, told us another marriage still, when you can because according to Jewish law it's not valid because she is not lawfully converted. So when I came to America I married twice more. In the meanwhile, two

from, from Vienna, she'd been in a concentration camp.

Q: Wait, that was after the war.

A: It was after the war, yeah, I was, I was in the war and I had a very good war because I, I prepared some things for you. I had, took part in four major battles. In the battle of Normandy, the battle of and, and . In the battle of the Rhineland and the battle of, of Central

Europe. I have it in my documents here. See the rest of couldn't do anything. This is the original memorandum that, photograph memorandum, which I am translating for you now and I'll let you have a translation of it, it's the memorandum which started the whole thing, these are photocopies of the memorandum and let me see what I have here. This is

to intervene be able to leave, leave for many ports.

You see, what actually happened is that Nazis set the house of fire and locked the gates of the, of it. I don't, let me see, I thought I had it here, what ?

Q: Something, something just fell onto the ground and it's gotten under the, the wheel. I think maybe if you roll back a bit more, there we go.

A: I don't think what I was looking for. No, it is not. There's an article which I published very recently, on a . Are you in ?

Q: Sure.

A: the top foreign policy quarterly, with Kissinger and and, and on the board and wrote an article and sent it to him and they publish it right away. top quarterly, the top monthly magazine is foreign affairs. and here, here, this is, this is, I need, I need, I will need copies of this, I've only one copy left. In the beginning of the year, the American government was opposed by of the

Jewish organizations, am I talking clearly enough?

Q: Yeah.

A: have the feeling trouble talking now.

Q: That's fine.

A: Speaking. ...was opposed by one of the larger Jewish organizations to have a large memorial

service. In remembrance of the 50 years of the downfall of the Nazi empire. The government says we can't do this, but the various departments can get together and make us a

meeting and organized the department for education has services culture, federal emergency management,

administration , our administration more > our administration and Jewish information agency, got together and one last meeting to a memorial meeting and I was invited to read to deliver the keynote address. I can't talk any more because I shake and my shaking would divert the audience, they would watch my shaking instead of listening to the speech. So I made the speech and my here read it. And I think it is a very important speech. I used the occasion to bring much more than just the Holocaust into it. I had 20 minutes time, but I am always one for short speeches. In 16 minutes, 16 minutes took,

very good reading of myself of the speech. I can give it to you but you have to

me. Maybe you can do this at your office, copies of it.

Q: Yeah, sure.

A: Yeah. Now I wanted to show you about my military record. I don't know where it is. I'll prepare it the next time for you. I'll send it. Do you have to come back?

Q: Yes and...

Q2: Yes.

Q: Because we, Mrs. Perl agreed to also be interviewed.

A: Yeah.

Q: So we will be back, right?

Q2: Yeah.

A: She was, she was in Ravensbriick concentration camp and she's one of the few people to have arrest order, which says why she was arrested and then the order of release from the concentration camp, she has, she has, most people do not know it, people do not know that she was Jewish. Was married secretly on the 17th of April in Vienna and the , before the court magistrate in New York and before, in New York too, she was formally converted, was completed in Vienna, with, with, with I don't remember the...

Q: :

A: everything. And here you have the order, the arrest order. I know that I have a copy of the arrest order in here. This book was scheduled to become a best seller, .

The managing editor was enthused about it, they wined us and they dined us. He invited us to his house and before the publication, there was a revolution and he was fired.

Q: You're talking about The Forefront War.

A: Yeah, The Forefront War, he was fired, he lost his job. He is editor, the managing editor, who, who, he had intended to push this to become a bestseller. I didn't even know that you don't become a bestseller unless you push it. And the reason for his being, losing his job, was officially that they didn't produce a bestseller for four or five years. for many years, they couldn't let now this book become a best seller. I had raving reviews, I had reviews raving in the Los Angeles Times and Houston, what is it?

Q: Houston Times-Monitor.

A: Houston Times-Monitor and the Denver Post and big, responsible papers. But the books were not available in the bookstores when the people inquired to buy it. I was, fell in between this fight between the managing editor, the editor and...

End of Side 2

Tape 3

Q: Just a few wrap up question, just a few more minutes. So after the war, so how did you find your

wife? She'd been in Ravensbriick as a prisoner.

A: Yeah. And I corresponded with her before she went to Ravensbriick and name, name of Lindpoint(ph), Navinia(ph) Wilhelm(ph) Lindpoint(ph) of, she's as Aryan in name as , who is not Jewish. And I corresponded with her by sending my letters to Switzerland to a friend of mine, who forward a sample, which I did with the envelope, of , took the letter, put it into a new envelope, says because you couldn't get letters from America. And so she got a letter from Switzerland and this way we were in contact. And then I, then I knew that she had visitors and I knew that she would be in trouble because she would hide people and she did and she hid people and one of the women whom she was hiding was caught.

Against instructions and promises, she went to see somebody and they went after her and . And I knew that she must have been arrested and I went to the last address I knew of her, which was a whole, on the whole , hill of roses in Vienna, , if by war or by any reason we, we, we got separated of course, we lose contact with each other, this is the place where we try to get in touch again. I went there, the was had just been over, it was a long story, I, our lines had just joined with the Russian lines and it was very strictly forbidden to go into Russian territory because of diplomatic possible complications and so, and I just took , went to the border, I had made some passports for myself, which I have here, with this, this officer, Lieutenant William Perl is proceeding to so and so and all Russian authorities are requested to help him in the fulfillment of his mission, signed William R. Perl. So that if, should have some trouble, they couldn't say I forged the document, this is my message to you, to you the Russian soldiers the border. With a long story, I got with this through and on the border , it was the borders between Austria, American occupation, Russian occupation, occupation. I went to the, to the bridge, the bridge was half and half on the middle of the bridge, were, were this wires and I went there and stopped a Russian soldier and said, "What is the passport?"

written, written in Russian, which I had written by Russian prisoner, war criminal who we helped and he said, he said, "Yes, I decided you have to come with me," he said. I, I, I, he spoke to me German, but I didn't understand German. This is too, too, too

, American officer who understands German, speaks German. I didn't understand a word of German. But he spoke to me German anyhow because this is what they, the second language learns when they are fighting the Germans. fighting, it was

experience and he brought me with this, in this Jeep, with a sergeant to the

commander . And on the other side of bridge and the civilians were waiting there, the Americans are coming, they were very happy because the Russians were looting and raping the women. So I went to the commander and he went up and I now. And then he came, came down, the sergeant, who I think was Jewish, because he spoke German with a, what seemed to me to be a Jewish accent, but I didn't tell him the man sounded Jewish. And make things as simple as possible, "What do you want?" I said, "You have to here?" So he went back and came back and said, "Yes, I'll go with you." And, but I did not know when I went to the border it was, about one

all the way to Vienna and the city of on the Danube, that big monastery and the castle. Were meeting at this time, American generals with Russian generals to discuss about how this, how they'll take over . And it was very strictly forbidden for the Americans to get in touch with the Russians to get over here. So you see, there was one guy I didn't want to see was this, yes he told me then he had whiskey with us and he got one drink and we got one drink, but we spilled our drink and he got two. Soon he was half , half drunk. And then I learned from him that he had orders to bring me to the, to because I apparently belonged to this American delegation in . You see didn't want to see what this American . So I told him I'll, you know I arrested him he finally came up with the idea, women of Vienna, great, let's go to women in Vienna.

I said, "Let's go to Vienna." He said, "Fine, let's go to Vienna." So we went to Vienna, to the place where she had first been, where we had agreed she would be and I drove down the street and

I saw her standing with a baby in her hands. I wasn't sure that it was she and, but by the baby, but I decided baby or not baby, she comes with me. And I went to the house, which was about 200 feet farther down and I knocked at the door and came out of and I didn't know this , he asked me, "What do you do?" And I said, "I want to see Miss Laura Rawleek(ph) and she said, "Laura isn't here. she's alive." I didn't know whether she's alive. And so went out into, at this moment, Laura already came down, running, and she kissed me and embraced me and this Russian officer was so emotional, that he got his sergeant, , his name. He was here visiting a few days ago, and embraced him and he embraced his belly because the other guy was so, and kissed him. Now that's how I found Laura . In the evening we drove back, I brought her into territory, I had the order, arrest order filled out, I was with war crimes already, I had arrest order filled out come from here with a, with a , said that this woman is arrested for being a war criminal and .

Q: Now you mentioned you were with, involved with the War Crimes Commission after the war, now what was your contact with Yorgen Strupe(ph), who is, you, do you receive a confession from him, or you...

A: Yes, yes, I received the first confession from him. I was in and I learned that the commanding officer was what May still, May or June, 1945. The commanding officer of the Warsaw ghetto is in the prison there. So I had no other , had nothing to do with it, she was there only in order to be delivered to the . And I went to him and told him, "Listen, yes she has a folder, little ," somebody tried to interview and she refused to answer. So I went to him and told him, "Listen, I am not really a military man. You see look at me, I'm not a military man. I'm in uniform, I am a I was then. I'm a historian and my purpose is to find out what happened in the Warsaw ghetto. You have the report of the Jews about the battle of the Warsaw ghetto. You are the one who can supply the battle of the German, the German side. I will to you, you will be handed over tomorrow to the Russians and from what I understand the Russians are not very

tender with the, with the Germans in chance to tell any story. You tell me the story and then the history will know both the Jewish sides and the German side." At first he didn't speak, he refused to answer. So sitting tall guy, silvery hair, very slim, bony.

"True," I said, "I here this paper, here you have sheets of paper, which you will decided to make a statement, give it to me and it will be of important to history. If not, then only the Jewish side will be known of it, most likely." And I came back at three o'clock and he was writing still and I was more pages and he wrote it , all the military details and how he suppressed the uprising and I had him write it two, twice more. The same thing only

only, taking what he had written and kept the page, so that he can't change his mind and tear it up and he wrote it well the other three copies of it all afternoon and I took it and I got three original copies . I don't know any more to whom I gave them. I have, one, one I think I gave to the Jabotinsky(ph) Institute in, in

. One I think gave either to you or more likely to the museum in Los Angeles. And the third one I kept for myself and here it disappeared, it was lying around and it disappeared. But I have photocopies of it.

Q: What happened to Strupe(ph) after?

A: Strupe(ph) he was , very short procedure, he was in Warsaw in the place where he committed the crime.

Q: Okay, I'd just like to conclude, because it's been a long interview now, 50 years since the liberation, have you been in, in contact still, involved in, in the Zionist movement with the Batar(ph) with revisionists...

A: so, yes. Yes I was involved, I was, it was arms for the, for the gulf liberation. arms for the , you know what the was? The ship is unfortunately was sunk and none of those weapons came to any use.

Q: So you were involved in smuggling, in not smuggling, but in trans...

A: But this is a long story, arms, money for the arms and was involved in the delivery of the arms and was furthermore, continued to be active, but less active until the

story of the Soviet started and there I was very active in that. And this I tell you next time.

Q: Okay, so we'll come back.

A: I think you should come back.

Q: We're going to Mrs. Perl.

A: my wife anyhow.

End of tape 3.

Tape 4

Q: This is Scott Miller of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, interviewing Dr. William Perl on October 7, 1996. Dr. Perl, we know of your involvement and your initiation of the . Were you involved in any other type of anti-Nazi resistance, a boycott of German goods, in addition to. . .?

A: I was very much involved before . Iwas, as the first one for the boycott of German goods. And a revolutionist, since I was a revolutionist, we organized it. And I was in charge of organizing this for Austria, Czechoslovakia and Hungary. And I was twice actually in this. This is only that was so well organized yet when they came in, that they didn't have me on their list. They asked me about the name, , the name of somebody who had been organizing it in the Baltic.

Q: Was there, were there Jews who didn't want a boycott? Did you consider yourself alone in trying to organize a boycott?

A: No I did not consider myself alone. We had quite a positive response. But there were many who for principal reasons were against the boycott. I'll never forget a meeting in Bratislava (ph),

, which is about 40 miles east of Vienna and now it is Czechoslovakia. When

came to give a speech there, we all there to listen to it. And he spoke then about the boycott. It must have been somewhere between 1934 and 1948, it probably was in 1935 or 1936. And he said, "The Germans are against the boycott because they __--_up, this is unfair. We have to be equal. We are prejudice against the Germans. The Germans have the right to equality. Equality in arms, equality in treatment, in the press and so on." And as he said this, an elderly man in the audience, a heckler, shouted, "Mr. , this would be a denial of our whole history if we would stand for inequality.". And wanted to pull this guy out of the lecture hall, and he says, indicated they should leave him, and he said, "Either you resist or you will be sorry." Many years ago in France lived a marquee (ph) who was known for his patriotism. One of his arguments was that whenever the was played, wherever it was, whatever the circumstances, he stood up and stood at attention and saluted. This was known. One

day, burglars broke into this house and he reached for his pistol below his pillow, in order to defend himself, and one of the burglars sit down at the piano, at the spinet, and started playing the

. And this man stood up in his nightgown, with his nightcap, at attention and saluted while they were robbing him entirely. What does this say? It says that the is holy, is holy, but this man was an idiot. So there are people, it was a wonderful irony, I cannot forget. And this man was one of the few who were against us. There were people who for principal reasons said we cannot be against anybody's equality. And this, with boycotting somebody, and they can't do that.

Q: And were there people, either in the Zionist movement, not in the revisionist Zionist movement, who perhaps felt that the approach of trying to boycott and leave Europe was wrong? That you should perhaps stay in Europe and try to fight for equal rights in Europe?

A: I don't understand the question.

Q: Your activities with the , your focus was escape from Europe, leaving Europe?

A: Not yet at that point. As I mentioned the year, that was 1935, about three years before Hitler moved into, also three years after you have taken over in Germany.

Q: Okay. Just one last question about the boycott. Were, is it fair to say that most of the organizers of the boycott were (a) Zionist and (b) revisionists? Was this a Zionist activity?

A: No, this crossed party lines. There was strong support from America in it. And the organized boycott of German goods, I remember, we were against the swimming suits, against beer, aspirin and beer, pharmaceuticals, and we were quite successful in item. To travel from Vienna to Paris, people traveled via Germany. Via Germany and USA, and he organized with the and the railroads. Schedule with one trip where you could go via Switzerland, throughout the western north. And this was many people, not just Jews, who wanted to boycott Germany. And also they wanted to see Switzerland, went through the detour and traveled through Paris and through London. Because it was, as I said, with an alternative, we were very happy about it.

Q: Okay. I would just like to ask, we're going to jump ahead to 1940, and in 1940 you came to the United States?

A: Yes.

Q: If you could just describe how you got to the United States in 1940?

A: Yes. I was in jail in Athens, I was in practically all the jails in the Balkans, in Yugoslavia, in Greece and in Romania and in Bulgaria. And then I was in jail in Athens because the minister, the ambassadors of Great Britain had protested against Marxism (ph) again, very sharply, the Greek Foreign Office document us through this. Where the British Ambassador reports home that I have intervened, the success, and William Perl is already deported. And I was arrested and deported.

Q: The British Ambassador was protesting your activities because you were trying to bring Judaism to Palestine?

A: Yes. That is an answer to your question?

Q: Right.

A: Or how I got to the United States? Well, after this I was in Athens, then I was released, and was in Athens. And then on the day the war broke out, I got on the Orient Express and traveled to Switzerland. This was very unlikely that I could travel so freely with the Jew passport that have. But I had arranged for to get a British entrance visa, which was the very high, highly valued.

And everybody knew Britain, the USA is in with Britain, so everybody tried to get into Britain.

And I had gone in, Bucharest (ph), where the embassy of course knew of my activities for the British Embassy, through the Embassy to get the visa, which seems impossible. And I said I want to speak to the Ambassador. And the guy asked, "What is it about?" I said, "About my intention which I will speak about only to the Ambassador." So the Ambassador didn't come, but the secretary of his came, and I told him, "I want to go to Britain because I want to organize there. Just need money for the transport as I can do it on a larger scale." Of course I would have been arrested right away in Britain. So they tried to catch me by giving me a visa to Britain and to writing already on the visa, it was written, for recreation. For recreation, that was underlined. So that they don't

have to prove anything legally, that I was there for recreation. If 1 wasn't there for this, like these other things, that they could arrest me. With this British visa, but with the other | was transit visas all over. I could travel from there to, from actually , from Greece via Italy, via Yugoslavia, and Italy to Switzerland. And in Switzerland, I organized, continued to organize. The war was on and I continued organizing and I organized there. Then the largest transport ever of any group, it was . At least 2,300 and some people. I organized this from Switzerland, together with Dr. Ruben Heitz (ph), whom you probably know by name. And in Italy I was arrested again. I went back to Greece and was again arrested in Greece because things had been figured out for me, and was deported to the airport and from the airport I flew to Portugal.

And in Portugal I went from there, from Portugal, to continue the illegal transports.

illegal transports equal to via the Mediterranean from Portugal. But I couldn't because then I was , for the first or second time, into the Port of Lisbon in order to negotiate which ship owners would be agreeable to going to this business.

There were no Greeks there. A man came to me and while I was in the docks looking for a pair of sunglasses, I turned and he was standing next to me and said, "Dr. Perl, if you show yourself just once more in the Port here, we will have you arrested and deported back to Germany." Now this was the end. Then I was in Lisbon, they couldn't get a visa anymore. Then there was a rumor that you can get visas to Shanghai and I went and got the visa to Shanghai, to China. Of course, knowing that the visa exists means nothing because you had to go to a at that time and I was, I took a boat, a ship, which was to go from Lisbon to Lorenzo-Marches (ph) which was in Mozambique, for the east colony on the south-east coast of Africa, and from there I was suppose to get a visa to, try to get a visa to the United States, which was very hard. But what is interesting, for the whole story of the Holocaust is, that it was impossible to get an American visa anywhere.

This boat landed the first time on the island of San Tome" (ph). This was a freighter, ; San Tome" (ph), the name was Mun-din-o (ph). And there I went to ask for an American visa and this man had in San Tome" (ph), he had figures, numbers for entrance into America. Who, what Jew, , a little island of San Tome" (ph) asked for everything possible to keep

the Jews out. And I sailed to Portugal, to shorten the story, in Portugal there was a very friendly American consulate who sold me American, I should go to America. Er, to Mozambique. Who sold me America, I should go to America. I could not go to Israel. I wanted to go. Back on the boat was an older man, an industrialists from Israel, from Palestine there. And he told me keep out from the time is not good because you have to get, if you want to get from Africa to Palestine you have to row by a and the British will get you there. If they will get you, they will get you in Palestine and there you will be busy and , important, time and effort trying to get you out so you keep out from Palestine. So I decided to go really not to America. This man gave me the visa to America.

A: Besides this there was a price on his head. In Israel.

Q: By the British?

A: Yes. I know but I have never be able to establish it by document. I was told by the British, I was told by everybody that there's a price of 1,000 pounds on my head, but I have not established this by document. They were serious, they wanted to catch me.

Q: Is this how you came to America?

A: No, you are in Mozambique now.

A: In Mozambique. I had an interesting story for the Holocaust situation, how the State Department there. I went to the consulate there, to the American consulate, and he says, "Yes, it's a very good idea the young man come to America." I said, "Here's my passport that I have for a visa." He says, "It's late now, come tomorrow morning." So I left. The next morning, he had spoken with his secretary who was much better informed than he, and she told me you cannot get to America without an affidavit. So I was full of , what do you need for an affidavit? She says, "Certified by an American citizen who is reliable."

you shouldn't become a burden to their system." So he said, "Do you have somebody?" I said, "No. But you can do it. Why don't you do it?" And he said he was ready to do it but then something came up and I needed a quota number, and that's what I wanted to tell you.

He didn't have, of course in Mozambique, a quota number but there were quota numbers in

Johannesburg. Nothing in Johannesburg. What's the capital of South Africa? What was it? It doesn't come to my mind.

Q: Johannesburg.

A: Johannesburg was the capital. Yes. Capetown was the biggest city and Johannesburg was the capital. They had quota numbers for Czech Jews, for Czech's to America. So that's how they, see, quota numbers existed where . So I couldn't, he couldn't give this to me so I said, "From the visa I have in my passport a visa for permanent residence in Venezuela", which I have acquired, this was not worried, I knew that I had some connections in Athens. And on the strength of this I got his visa. The transit visa to America. But now that I he said ship coming. Now that I had this, in two or three days, I had some foreign ship that travels to America and he said, "You can travel with them." I said, "No, I wait for an American ship." Because Roosevelt, at that time, when you were in , flying Dutchman's they are called, the refugees on the ships, they got you on the ship legally, and at no account did they want to take them. They stayed for months and for years on the boats. So I wanted to wait for an American ship. I waited for another week and an American ship from the in Baltimore came in, a freighter with the name of Mary. And I went to buy a ticket there and the Captain told me, "I'm sorry. I can't take you. I know of this flying Dutchman, I can't take you." So I told him, "Listen, if you find somebody, if you're out on the high seas and you find somebody drowning, do you ask for his entrance visa or do you save him?" He said, "I save him, that's my duty, the duty of the seas." I said, "Well I am in great danger because the Portuguese will deport me to Germany unless I leave here. I have to get on a transit." Portugal, so even if this will go to China, they will deport me. So I never wanted to. So the Portuguese will deport me to Germany. And so he said, "Okay, let me think it over." He was a very nice guy. And I went right away to the Portuguese police and told them you have to give me a certificate that you will deport me because, even if I have to stay here. They give me a confirmation that unless I leave this island in the permitted time of one month they will I will be deported. With this I came to Captain

Broaderick (ph) and showed it to him. So he said, I'm a drowning man, he has to take me. So I arrived and in Baltimore with the on a freighter, it was a freighter.

Q: In 1940?

A: In September, 1940.

Q: Now I want to go to what the focus of the conversation will be, and that's really your return to Europe. You go back to Europe as an American soldier in 1944?

A: Yes. 1944. Yes.

Q: Let me just ask about the years between 1940 and 1944. You were living in the United States.

Were you aware of what, the nature of what was happening to Jews in Europe?

A: Not to the full extent, no. I knew that they are being deported to the east and I assumed they let them starve there and died there because this was not, this couldn't be for a resettlement. They took the people out, dying people and sick people and people who could hardly stand up. The old, and they put them on those trains, and for resettling in the east. But the mass murders I did not know.

Q: And when you, when in June, when in 1944 did you go back?

A: To America?

Q: To Europe. In 1944, I'm sorry, back to Europe?

A: In 1944. I was in, I had a very good job in the military intelligence and I asked them, when I was safe there and did very important work where I used all my knowledge of countries and so on, and, but with the invasion on the 6" of June, it was 1944 was the invasion, I couldn't keep back. I wanted to get over and I volunteered for overseas duty. And I got a commission until was only a . And I got a commission in the military intelligence, and shortly after the invasion, maybe in August, I arrived in Britain. With an American transport. I don't remember the name which it has under the military but before it had been a passenger ship for the > I don't remember her name. Oh, was the name.

Q: And where were you at the end of the war?

A: At the end of the war I was in Has-felt (ph), a prisoner of war camp in Central Germany. Then the news came that Hitler, that Germany has surrendered, I was there on that day, I remember how

the Gls shot into the air all night long. You couldn't sleep because there was shooting all night long. This was on the 7" of May, 1945.

Q: You were a prisoner there?

A: No. Iwas an American officer. I was in charge of an interrogation team.

Q: And after May 7", May 8", VE Day, what was your next step? What was your next location?

A: I was interrogating prisoners for whom certain information was desired. Especially I was charged with specific information, there were four interrogation teams, MFIU (Mobile Field Interrogation Units). This belongs to, we're not attached to any Army, we were attached but didn't belong, we were not under the of command. We were directly in command from the Headquarters and . And I was at least one of those, and I use to interrogate prisoners who were of interest. Before we had many prisoners, we interviewed them for broadcasting. We already know what should go into our propaganda broadcast. . This deal had question marks, questionnaires. But in life this is not a game so they didn't have to sign it. Who is best liked in Germany? Who is least liked? So that we called American propaganda could concentrate on the least liked ones. And then concentrate for example on Hitler. Everybody loves Hitler. Hitler was, you couldn't say anything about Hitler. But was the most

, and so on. Until after a number of questionnaires were to the intelligence services I didn't always know why. And this is what I did until about the beginning of September, or late in August, when we already had in Germany, not in Germany, they had settled the first German town, which the name of it was Pirl. I never knew of this town or this village. When I was transferred at my request from London to the mainland. And I was in this military intelligence on the mainland until I took out of Vienna.

Q: Which was when?

A: On the 22"! of June, 1945.

Q: Now at what point after the war's end, or maybe before, I don't know, did it become clear to you what really had happened? The extent of the Final Solution?

A: All this became clear to me as soon as I started interrogating prisoners of rank and all the trials in England. And I was assigned there to assist the combined services, detailed to which was the highest level interrogation center for the allied army. All the allied armies had representatives there. The Dutch and the Belgium and the Australians. And I was there as an American representative. And there I heard for the first time, one of the first prisoners who told me about it told me about the gassing in the vans. That they took people into the vans, gassed the people, he had worked on it. I knew. He said he didn't, but I got information from him. I was not allowed to arrest him. I wanted information about the vans. And whatever. So in turn I heard from others who had seen mass shootings in the east, but none of them knew about Auschwitz.

Q: At the war's end, did you know or have knowledge of whether Mrs. Perl was alive?

A: No. I knew that she had been arrested. I knew that she had been arrested just before, she had to be arrested because she is when she wants to do something ideally she will do it.

And I knew that she would hide people, which she did. And that she wouldn't be very careful about it I knew too. And besides this she wrote me a letter, that she had visitors. She was for a few days gone and she had visitors, when she came home she had visitors from Puno (ph). Puno (ph) was the capital of who was a communist and was arrested among the first ones in Vienna.

And so here, in both concentration camps, so Puno (ph) was the keyword to us for concentration camp. And she said, all Gestapo. She will visit us from Puno (ph), or something like that. So I knew that she, that she was not arrested, she was only brought to the Gestapo, she talked there three hours, but she continued. And then when they arrested her and brought her to the Rounds-berg (ph) concentration camp. But I knew at the time in which we are talking about now, or at the end of the war, I knew that she was in, must have been in a concentration camp. I knew about concentration camps there, I knew about Auschwitz by then. Not the details but I knew that there are mass murders there and I wondering, I worried that she is alive.

Q: How did you find out that she in fact was alive?

A: Well, that's a story. The other commanding officer, we were all European Jews in this unit, this was specialized concentrated on important information which was expected. very cleverly assigned a job. My job was, at one time, to find out whether, if you chased allies armies approach and uprisings of the against the Nazis and they would be expected. I found out, I knew this from the beginning, that there was to be no uprising because they were much too clever for that. Yeah.

A: And you had the pass to go to Vienna.

A: Yeah. I go on the 20" of June, this was about three weeks after the surrender of Germany. I got a pass from the commanding officer to go, , I said I have my wife, , want to visit her. I know she will be in a camp, he didn't know anything. Though he said, not on the list of APO's, I give you one to visit the nearest APO. I told him the nearest APO is, I don't remember where it was, it was still in the American zone, and he gave us, and this two people on that trip. Started off a very famous family, a Count, Franz Josef

, he came from a very well known Austrian family, the Baron .

And foreign ministers and prime ministers of Austria. And he came with me. And then a Jewish fellow by the name of, what was his name? He was , because 7 This was important that I remember but , his name was Frank (ph), he had a mother who lived in Vienna, and I make a passport out for the three of us to get into Russian occupied territory. Which was very strictly forbidden at that time because negotiations with the Americans and the Russians went up where we would be and they are not, and the Russians were very suspicious anyhow. And a journalist who admitted to, had his to Berlin was supported from the entire theatre of all operations, sent back to Germany, so there was quite some trouble. But I said I am going to Vienna, I'll find . And I made the passport in Russian, out to me, with just the undersigned, not the undersigned, the officer William Perl, Serial Number so-and-so, will proceed in US Military Favor, and the number of the jeep, which I never filled out, and the border date, I had to fill it out. Into Russian occupied territory, and then the Russians, our Russian allies are requested to be helpful to him in every way possible. And I signed

it myself. So that if they shoot me, some trouble, I shall say, what do you want? This is nothing forced. This is my request to you. So with this I got through to the allies, Vienna.

Q: Okay. And after you were reunited with Mrs. Perl, what, did you stay in Vienna?

[end of side one, tape 4]

A:... inan hour I got her into the...

Q: There is something you ought to know.

A: It was fantastic. It was like in a movie which I never saw, we foresee that, and imagine, it was dark already. And in the light of the jeep you saw these Russians, not the, the Russian horses, small horses, these wagons coming back. They went back with little wagons and pulled us into Russia.

They had taken this, and with them came the Russian Flea Circus, who had been brought by the Germans to Russia to work there. And this Flea Circus had robbed the Germans of everything they could. I didn't mind that. There was the women, they are sitting next to the driver of the horses, and there are dressed in fantastic ways. They had stolen or robbed the Germans, the drapes, and sewed these gowns and they were wrapped into this, green and red and blue, shiny. It was unbelievable.

And then it was again after we passed, it was pitch dark and we ran into a hole, there was a bump hole, and we came to a river where you couldn't cross, and so on. And this trip was unbelievable.

Of course, for her it was the first . Where I said . Sure now we got into American territory because she had no paper. I filled out, I had a paper that said she has been arrested as a . And as the beckoned, I changed the

, she sat in some apartment with some German family where I arrived at night and we stayed all night until early in the morning I came and reported to the Major that I brought my wife back. He was horrified. It was a time where every contact with any lower citizen who was not American, with any lower citizen was strictly forbidden. It was very taboo. Which was idiotic because you couldn't speak to your parents who might still be alive. But he was horrified about it

and he was scion of the Philadelphia, a very rich, very well known family. This was about all he was. And he called the headquarters of intelligence, I assume, and said what had happened.

Because earlier we were afraid of political complications with the Russians. And so he says, "You proceed now to Batch-schwiber (ph), this is of course the military intelligence headquarters for Germany, and report there to so-and-so. And I took Laura (ph) into the jeep and instead of going to , she was quite sick, she was, looked like a skeleton. And brought her to a hospital in

, Lisbon. Which disappointed her, and continued to Batch-schwiber (ph) and there I was seen by the General, who said, "What is this, it is horrible what you did, Perl." I said, "Yes I know. But you have to know the story." I told him the story and then he says, "What should I do with you?" I says, "Sir, wait a moment. Sir, what would you have done in my place?" So he think for a second and he says, "Hell I would have done the same." And he said, "Is it all right with you if I transfer you to another unit and out of military intelligence because this is too much for intelligence. To another unit and take you off the promotion list?" There was a listing where I was to be promoted to First Lieutenant from Second Lieutenant. I said, "Fine." I was promoted three weeks later. So I was then offered this, and I was then transferred to war crimes. You see, most people ridicule the army because they will send people in the wrong spot. I was always in the military in the right spot. I was in intelligence when it was really important to be in intelligence.

And when the war was over I was transferred to the war crimes, and I was from then on in war crimes until my discharge from the army in December, 1946.

Q: Okay. I want to ask you in a minute about the war crimes, but just one other thing. You found Mrs. Perl, of course. Were you in any way trying to look for relatives, friends, Jewish friends who you thought might have perished during the Holocaust? Your, people who were a part of your life before you came to America? Did you know where they were?

A: I knew this, they were all gone. The is to succeed to get out alive, but there were no known Jews to be left in Vienna at that time.

Q: What happened to your brother?

A: My brother? He went with the first larger transport to Israel, to Palestine. But most of my relatives went with those ships but some didn't want to take the risk of the ships and they perished. I had about fourteen relatives, including cousins, first cousins. If I go farther it would be more.

Fourteen people who were murdered by the Germans.

Q: Do you know or did you know how they were murdered? Do you know if they were deported to camps?

A: I know only of one. who helped me with the transport. He had established a branch of this in Prague, and one day he was transferred from his office into the camp, which was a somewhat better type of concentration camp, much better than

the others. And there he was kept until one of the last ones, where he was organizer, for the German, he was a leader among the Jews, a German agent. And he was on his way back, they didn't send him to Auschwitz, he went on a trip, on a train to Auschwitz, but on his papers was written "RO", , Return Undesirable. And he was taken out of the first step, the , the fortress of of , was taken out and killed there. This is the only one about whom I know. And one cousin I do not know where she knows this from, but I had a cousin who survived in Vienna because she was married to a Jew, but he was racially only half a Jew, so she somehow, she , and from her I know that her mother was brought, perished in Lublin (ph), she said.

Q: Okay. Now, I'd like to go back to...

A: Who is still alive in Vienna, who was, she was the daughter of this man who was killed in

and she was brought to Auschwitz and she survived Auschwitz. She was strong and was working in a factory after the war. Her husband was killed, her father was killed and her mother was killed in Auschwitz. She blames herself very severely for the death of her parents because of her mother. Because, only the father was to be deported. The deportation orders was for the father. Probably they would have run the mother the next time. And she said, "When my father goes I go with him voluntarily. I won't let him go alone." And the father tried to talk her out of it and she insisted she goes together. So the mother said, "When you go and he goes, then I will

voluntarily too." Of course they were separated right away. Her parents were murdered in Auschwitz and she survived Auschwitz. And she then met in Prague another survivor of Auschwitz who's wife and who's child has been murdered in Auschwitz, and she marries him and she lives in Vienna and she is very well-to-do.

Q: This is your cousin? Will you say her name?

A: Her name is Susie Lansky (ph). I think if you would interview her you will get very good information from her because she is a survivor of Auschwitz. And of .

Q: Okay. Now getting back to war crimes, you were a transfer from intelligence to war crimes.

Could you talk a little bit about the war crimes, what you did for them?

A: I was transferred to war crimes and there was first used in a capacity of which I didn't speak so far. I have studied in Vienna of interest, out of interest, graphology, the interpretation of the formality from hand writing. This is based on very sound psychological principal that we express ourselves not only by words but in other ways too, among emotions, emotions. And hand writing is a product of emotions and the differentiates changes to scroll copy into his own emotions, that tells us, should be able to interpreted as their emotional phase. And it is. You would expect somebody who is very energetic to write in an energetic stroke, and somebody who is very timid is timid, maybe stroke. Somebody who is very depressed, the lines they will go up, will go up, down and up, and this is all in the simplest, not incorrect description because this is only one thing. You have to know psychology to put these traits all together. You can't build it on one trait. And I used this already in for the interpretation of handwriting of people who had to be interrogated, so that the interrogator gets a picture of the personality. I wrote an article about it and I will give you a reprint, but I have only four reprints left.

me in the American Journal of Psychiatry. I have sent it to them. They are the most respected paper in the psychiatric profession, they are the official of the American Psychiatric Association and usually you have to wait months or years for the publication of a paper if they accept it. It was accepted and in two months it was printed. Now I did this first in war crimes, mainly to inform interrogators about the personality of the people whom they wanted to

interrogate. But then it became too boring for me. There was more action to be done. So | asked to be sent into the field. And I was sent into the field, which was then, the Germans had down many flyers, and the flyers, those who survived, were mostly killed by the population. They were beaten to death. And I was to go into villages that were there for intelligence and for information, the flyer has landed there, nothing was heard of him again, to find out what happened to him and who did what. And I did this, the flyers murders, in several places. In one place, something very odd and funny happened. I came there and I knew that the flyer had there and I asked what happened. He was killed. How was he killed? Beaten to death. No, he was shot, he was shot. I said, beaten to death but this flyer was shot. I said, who did it? So he said, so-and-so did it, he's a Polish worker. I said, now I want to, I have to talk to him because I assumed that the Germans did it. And they pushed this Polish worker in front, said he did it. So I had by then there and the crime was admitted at the , [had the name of the Polish worker. And the Polish worker, because it was shortly at the end of the war, was still there. And I said, bring him to me. And he came with a whole bunch of other Polish workers. And I asked him, you killed this young man? He said, I don't know their name but I'm thinking, but I had the right, I was entitled to kill him. I said, what gives you the right? And he showed me a, and he told me that he was very angry at this flyer, at the, wait a moment. No, he said a certain German had killed the flyer and he had killed the German, this worker. The German who was done, who had done it, was known but he was not here. I didn't believe them. They said that the Pollack who shot him is here. So I got this Pole, and he told me, yes I shot him. I said, how did this happen? He said, he was very bad to the Poles. He beat them and killed them and when the war was over, it was the first village came in. I asked a youngster there and he

leader for permission to kill this guy. And this is what I got, I got the permission to kill him, and he had a little slip of paper, paper with that, okay, kill the guy, so- and-so, Corporal so-and-so. First of all, he was not a Corporal, the pilot first got the serial number.

And with this he had acquired his authorization to shoot him and he shot him. But there were many places where the flyers were killed by the population.

Q: What were the nationalities of the flyers?

A: They were American. American flyers in the Air Force. And his plane was shot down and he parachuted to what he thought was safety.

Q: You were involved in the Mal-mee-dee (ph) case?

A: >> yes.

Q: If you could just talk about that?

A: The war crimes, I , but there was one major case on the minds of the Americans. That was the murder of over 70 American soldiers in the Battle of the Bulge.

The Battle of the Bulge was the battle known as the Battle of the Bulge, it is know as, yes. And they shot 70 soldiers and I know how, they vowed that they will follow, hunt these people who did it to the ends of the world. And they were very clever. American intelligence were cooperating, POW and soldiers cooperated to get together members of this unit and started to interrogate them.

And they had a very good lawyer, I don't know whether he was a good lawyer, he was a good officer, come and start the interrogation. And he had already enlisted men and the officers separated, but he didn't get anywhere because he told them, you don't help I make you aware of your rights, you don't have to tell, if it would be against you, and so on. This didn't , for the situation, so nobody said anything. So they said, Perl should try. I was only a Second Lieutenant or

. So I was put on the case to try to break the iron grip of those people who knew that the unit had done it. But really, they didn't know that, the individuals had done it. The unit was the toughest of the toughest units in the German military. It was the first SS sponsored regiment of the division, of the Furor's division. And it was the Lindbergh (ph) Nazi Division, or something similar. It was the Furor's Division and it was the first sponsored regiment. And this unit, a certain company, this unit had committed the crime. So I had to ask somebody into see me, interview him, and to ask him, among other questions, who is particularly foolish and stupid among you? You are mostly very bright guys. He said, this guy Fleps (ph) is a very stupid guy. He's Hungarian, and we make fun of his stupidity. Okay. And I had Mr. Fleps (ph) come in. He was in complete darkness about who had done what and told Fleps (ph), I was sitting there, I said, take his shirt off. They took

his shirt off and he had, of course, the SS sign, here under the and I said, here. How do you call this when you have a birth...

Q: Birth mark?

A: A birth mark. I said, yes. So he said I've had this since childhood. You see, he has the birth mark here. This is this , you have the right man now. I said, you started the shooting on this and this place. He said, no I didn't. Finally he admitted that he had done the shooting but that he had orders to do it. So I him, who give him the orders? And then I knew somebody who had given the orders and I got them all caught up, confessions of everybody, their , what they had done. Everyone had shot people before, two or three other places, where they showed us, where they were in a shallow grave, the people who got shot. Individuals.

This is what I did in war crimes. I was in one or two of the the flyers faces and then I was chief intelligencia of the "

Q: Thank you. The, I'd like to conclude but let me ask you. You, of course, really as a founder of the Ally-a-bet (ph), of course their legal immigration continued after the war, between 1945 and 1948. Were you in any way involved?

A: No I was not involved in the resistance any more. It was very ably done by the leftist organizations. Very ably.

Q: So Ba-tar (ph) in general, the revisionists was less involved?

A: Very little involved, if at all. I do not know about their involvement. In my understanding, he was very little involvement.

Q: When did you leave Europe to come to the United States?

A: In, after the government of Nuremberg, a week later I left. I was not at Nuremberg, at the trial. I was in one of the trials and have photographs of it too. There are films, they make this into a documentary about the Trial. Did you know that? In December, about a year or two earlier, of all people told me, you are now on the screen, they are showing the Case, a documentary about it. And after I was at the Trial, it was by far the most important to the Americans because it involved Americans.

Q: And so you, the year that you came back to the United States was?

A: It was in September, 1946.

Q: And did you think at all of going to Palestine?

A: Yes, but she didn't want to go there. She said, I want to, there was fighting there, and war, she said, I don't want to, I'm pregnant. I want our child to be born in America. So I went back to America.

Q: Okay. You have two sons?

A: I have two sons. Rafael, my older one who is a lawyer for the government and Solomon, the younger one who is a veterinarian. You know I was on one very interesting case which is very connected with the Holocaust. I was not on that case, but I brought myself into it. One day in

, | was in , | learned that there was a man, an officer who had been in charge of the Warsaw ghetto, battling in the Warsaw ghetto, was in prison, in jail.

Q: Strope (ph)?

A: Strope (ph), yes. He was in prison, he was in . He had been just captured and there was nothing known about him except that he was no doubt the man responsible. He was not in our interest. But he was, war crimes didn't deal with him because he was, the crime was committed in foreign territory. In foreign territory or a territory which we are not occupying by foreigners. But I went to the prison and said, yes, I want to see this fellow Strope (ph). And I got a folder, it was the very same folder, he said he refuses to talk under any kind of threat. So did not sense as a threat because this he was prepared for. So I told him, Mr. Strope (ph), he was a tall guy, very slim, graying hair, steel-gray, very bony. I told him, General, or Mr. Strope (ph), I don't think I called him General, Mr. Strope (ph), you mind you, you look at me, be aware that I'm not really a soldier. I am a scientist and an historian and I am interviewing you about the Warsaw ghetto and if he spoke to me, finally he says, don't speak to me, it's fine too. I couldn't get it. But I think it is in your interest if you talk because so far, because we are informed and we will transfer you tomorrow to the Russians. You occupy Poland and they are known to be not exactly friendly to SS officers.

And if you want to make a statement you can do it now. We know what happened in Warsaw from

the stories of the Jews, but you are the one who would tell the story of the Germans. High up. But with you this information will be completely gone. So you decide whether you want to tell the story or whether you don't. Here you have sheets of paper. You write. If you want to I will come in the afternoon and pick it up or pick up empty sheets. Good-bye. Well, the first confession of Strope (ph) and it is in military style, he reports. I am sure that the Jews are not interested in the details, but I wrote that this and this company did this and this many people who were killed in the first

, this and according to him only 13, 14 or 18, a very small number of Jews that are killed, of Germans that are killed in the battle. But he describes how they went into the houses and they are going underground, there were sewers and the Jews were hiding there and they finished them all.

Q: Is there anything else that you'd like to add before we conclude? General reflections or anything?

A: No, I've, it might be interesting, but it is not interesting for the Holocaust murders. How these are successful in breaking the resistance of Germans and prisoners of war. When I was in

I was assigned a man, a Naval Officer, who has refused to give any information.

And he was very interested to ask because he had been stationed at : was the place where they made military rockets. And he was assigned to me to open up.

, yes but he was not a prisoner.

A: Now he is in the United States.

A: Yeah. So I got him and he was a threat, a fanatical Nazi. Tried to make out of this for nothing, his towards us. So I approached him, not with any markings of rank, but with a Red Cross on my arm. As a Red Cross Officer who inquires whether he's all right or whether he is properly treated according to the Geneva Convention, whether there are any complaints, does he have enough food and enough working, he . And there came the second time and third time, asked never any questions of military interest. And then we discovered what he knew about and he was interested in music. We discovered that he is very interested in . So I said I'm very interested in too, let us talk about it next time, I have to see somebody

else. And I read up about and the next time I came to him he was amazed how much I knew about , about his brother Michael and so on. Those were contacts, you know? Of course, he didn't notice that I am Jewish. So I told him, listen, how do you see your future? He said, I don't know but I think that we still win the war. I said, do you really believe this? He said, yes. I said, I tell you, I take you to the city and you can see for yourself, what was the , what they did to London, because thought that London was half destroyed. And I spoke already with your commanding officer and he said, take him. He says, it's your business. You take him to the city. So I took him to the city, I took first his word of honor as an officer, I knew he would never break it, that he wouldn't try to escape. I gave him a paper to have in case he tries to escape, I didn't take a pistol along. And he went, , said, you tell the driver where you want to go. So he told the driver that he just wanted to go to Piccalilli Circus and , well known places where there was hardly any destruction. I said, here, listen, there's hardly any destruction here. You stop and ask one of the passers-by where is the destruction and there I will bring you. And then you compare this to what's happened in Germany. So then he stopped and he asked not the first, only the second person who came by. Where is the best destruction? He said, I think it was some Poles if I'm not mistaken, near some Poles. I said, have the driver drive to some Poles and there we saw some destruction, a total of about five blocks, a few entirely destroyed. But no comparison to what they did in this. And he

back and on the way back there was, between London and, what was the name, where we were stationed? ? ? I forgot now, but I was stationed outside London. I mean it was a very secret ; End of Tape 4.

Tape 5

A: And on the way back I stopped, we stopped at the little grocery store there. Before I bought, not Kosher salami but Hebrew National salami, it was not Kosher but the Kosher-type. And somebody had saw this, oh it was a program and the Americans have plenty of it and they sent plenty of it to Britain and the Britains didn't like it because it smells of garlic and the garlic in it, so it was not rationed. So I said, on the way back we are going to pass by there, stop me, I want to buy some snack. And we stopped there. We went in and I said, I want this salami. And this I got and he said, no ? Isaid, no. He said, you know they tell us that everything is rationed and almost everything was rationed. This thing is too. So now he was

and the next time when I came to visit him, I don't know whether it was the next time but I took time with this thing. I said, do you think now that you lost the war? He said, yes.

Because you are in full strength and you are limping. The Air Forces don't exist anymore, the German, the Navy is practically not in existence. It was what you have in fighting. You have lost the war. So the first step, my first step was to convince him that he had lost the war. Now came the second step. To convince him that if they lost the war, the war is lost, the faster the war ends the better it is for Germany. Because every one of them you knew in quotation marks, " "and for this you will need the Germans. So I on this, I said, I do not know but there is the possibility that develops with the Soviets and that we need the Germans, and anyhow we want to rebuild Germany, a Nazi-free Germany. And you might have some chance to get into the ministry of naval affairs if you work with me for the reconstruction of Germany. I couldn't do this. I said, oh, if you can't do this, but I think it would be your patriotic duty to do it. So the next time I came out, the second time, he said, I am ; I have to work with you for the reconstruction of Germany. That was the end. Because I was not a technician, I didn't know what about. He was then handed over to the people who asked them the questions they wanted to. And he was talking because he thought he would become a big shot in a new anti-Nazi German of naval affairs.

Q: Okay. Thank you very, very much.

Q: This concludes then the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Dr. William Perl. Thank you very much.

Conclusion of Interview.