Document

EDITH HAHN-BEER May 26, 1998 Beginning Tape One, Side A

Q: Good morning, Edith.

A: Good morning.

Q: It's nice to have you in Washington. Can you tell us the name that you were born with and the date of your birth?

A: Ma -- The day of my birth is the 24th of January, 1914, in Vienna.

Q: And the name that you were born with?

A: The name? Edith.

Q: Edith Hahn?

A: Edith Hahn, yes. The name of my parents were Leopold Hahn and Clotilde Hahn.

Q: Can you tell us something about your parents, and your family?

A: My parents were distant relations. My mother didn't change her name when she got married.

She was born Hahn and sh-she -- both parents were born around Vienna, in small places. But late -- the most of the time, my mother grew up in Shtockerau, this is a little town near Vienna, where my grandparents had a shop. They were s-selling bicycles, motorbikes and sewing machines in -- in Shtockerau. And there they had a little house and had the four children. My mother was the second one.

Q: And tell me -- can you tell me about your parents, what you remember about what they were like and what they did? I understand --

A: My -- my father had learned to be -- he was the youngest of nine children in a village and when -- the older children were sent to school, but when he was growing up, he was sent to -- to

-- to a -- to learn to be a -- a kilner -- as a -- a waiter. And I -- and he -- later on, when he had finished his time to learn, he went to Nitsa, to the Riviera and to Francesbath and Karlsbath, these are baths in -- in Czechoslovaki -- to -- to work. And then he worked in Vienna and s -- after the war -- and he was a soldier then, in the first World War. He was an invalid. He was -- his right shoulder was broken in the war and he could never lift his right hand any more. He was an invalid. But he came back -- he was a prisoner in Russia, but he came back half a year before the war ended. He escaped. And when he escaped, back home -- this was in spring 1918, he came back. I do remember that. I was four years old, yes, because I had to learn a -- a poem to say to him. This was -- and had flowers in my hand and was four years old and I didn't know actu -- actually was -- what a father was. My mother told me -- was always talking about the Papa and she told me that one day I came home from the park and said, a child has said to a mum -- to a man, "Papa," and it was for me -- as -- as -- I don't know what I imagined a Papa is. And - - and so the Papa came. And this I do re -- I still remember --

Q: Do you remember --

A: -- the excitement of when he came. I do remember.

Q: Do you remember the poem that you said to him?

A: No, of course not. No. But I had to -- to -- we had always to learn poems, at birthplace and I -- his -- I suppose this must be a Victorian -- a Victorian ritual.

Q: Was it strange as well as exciting to have this person come in whom you didn't --

A: Oh, I -- I -- I -- I don -- I took it, I suppose, and -- but itcho said children didn't -- I didn't know what a Papa is. Could have been a dog and -- and then I noticed that it is a man and my mother of course thought that I know what a Papa is. This is --

Q: And when were your sisters born?

A: My sister was born on the fifth of March, 1915, she was born.

Q: And this is Hansie, or --

A: No, Mim -- Mari -- Mimi -- Maria was actually her name, after some relations who had died, I don't know.

Q: And did your parents own a restaurant?

A: Not at that ti-time, but m-my father established then the first restaurant, when he came back from -- when -- he -- he didn't go into -- not -- not work any more, so he established a restaurant.

Q: Was that fun, as a child?

A: I don't know. I don't -- this I don't know. We were always kept very separate. Children were very separate from their parents. Too much. My mother said once to me -- later on, now -- that she only regrets that she was not more with her children.

Q: So she was working in the restaurant?

A: No, she -- she was not working directly, but she was there. I don't -- she was not cooking or anything, but she was there. They had to cook and all that and -- but of course she -- she supervised -- that and helped. She was very, very close to my father and they worked very, very good together and this was a very, very good relationship.

Q: And your other sister, Hansie, when was she born?

A: She was born after the -- after the war. She was born 1921, on the first of July, 1921, after the war.

Q: So what was it like in your home to grow up, as you remember?

A: We had always somebody -- somebody to look after us. Some maids or anything. I do remember the last one, she was for years with us. She had a kindergarten course. But -- but it was a separate life from the parents, of course, because in a restaurant, y -- you worked too -- always,

day and night. As a -- on somedays -- in what I can remember my parents did -- because in -- in the langerstein, what I remember, this restaurant was in the center of Vienna and it was more or less as a -- for people who are working there and came for lunch and evening and then my -- the people were not working on Saturday and so my parents closed th -- closed on Saturday -- on -- not on Saturday, on Sunday. On Sunday it was closed.

Q: Did -- did you have much of a religious identity when you grew up?

A: We did know we are Jews.

Q: You did know, yeah.

Q: But -- but not religious upbringing. At first the maids what we had, they were all Catholics, but we -- th-they didn't take us to church or anything. And in -- in my -- in -- in -- in my primary school, I do remember as a -- I do remember we went sometimes to what was called Yugenkotestines. To versidenshteten, as this was the synagogue. And for me is -- the synagogue still is the nicest synagogue in the world. That -- we went there as -- to rab -- Rabbi Heiss, he was a very famous rabbi -- what I heard later, pere -- and I do remember sissyougotastanst. I do remember we sang a song in German, it -- the Torah got -- do you understand German a bit?

A: A little.

Q: The Torah gotas labbit unz desala imital. This was the beginning. This --

A: Will you translate it for us?

Q: Atho the Torah gotas labbit unz is -- is -- gives us -- cares for us, maybe. Cares for us always - - imital. This was -- I do remember the beginning of that song we sang in the Yugotestines. And I liked to go there -- I liked to go there.

Q: Did -- when you were in school and -- and at home, you were playing with friends, you had Jewish and non-Jewish friends?

A: More non-Jewish.

Q: More non-Jewish.

A: There weren't -- where we lived, there were not many Jews. We were only three in class. And there were more non-Jewish friends.

Q: Did you experience any discrimination because you were Jewish?

A: I didn't understand it at that time and I didn't feel discriminated, but now I know that there was, from the teacher. Because now I -- I still remember that my teacher ask me few times which langa -- language we are speaking at home. My parents couldn't speak -- only German -- they couldn't speak a foreign language, but I suppose she expected Yiddish or Polnish. And -- and at that time, I didn't connect this with anti-Semitisms, but now I know. And then another thing, what I didn't understand at that time, was -- I had, in every subject the best mark, one -- it was a one. Only in German, I had a -- a bad -- a -- a -- a two. This is not such a good mark. And when I came to the gimnasium, this was in -- in -- in -- in the school as a -- when I came to the gimnasium, I never had anything else than -- than very good. And my abbietour is even -- I wrote on very good. S-So I can't believe that my German, as a child, was so bad that I had a -- I deserved a -- a -- a bad mark. I suppose this was pure anti-Semitism -- that she thought a Jewish child can't speak proper German.

Q: What was your relationship to your two sisters? Were you -- you were fairly close in age, at least --

A: To?

Q: To your sisters. Your relationship with your sisters --

A: Yeah my -- my sister -- wa-was from birth very short-sighted. She sees -- runs in the family, my grandmother was shortsighted. And I had always to look after her, this I do remember. And

she was -- even when -- when she grew up, she was always a bit jealous of me. When -- I had to look after her and to take her as I -- she was not trusted to go alone, I had always to take her. And s -- and she was always a bit jealous and still is.

Q: That's -- that's the youngest daughter, Mimi?

A: [had to take her -- Mimi, mat -- Mimi -- I had to take her w-when I had dates, when I was a -- I had to take her to all my dates. I was not allowed to go on my own. It was a -- a -- a -- for years, when I -- or when I was invited for a birthday party, I had to ask if I can bring my do -- my sister, too. But she -- she didn't have friends. She always was as o -- some ba -- hanging on -- my appendings. And this was not a good -- this was not very good for me and not good for her.

Q: Now why did she have to be your companion on dates?

A: Yeah, this -- I suppose my -- my parents thought this is quite an insurance in that way, that we are always together, yes.

Q: When did you start dating?

A: When I started dating? I was -- I wasn't allowed to date. This is -- I was then in -- up -- up to 14, I was in a girl's school, because I didn't go to the gimnasium at 11, and actually I was in the normal school what ended at 14. And in the restaurant there was a professor who liked to talk to us. Usually we were not allowed to talk to the guests, but he wa -- talked to us and he told my parents, or my father, he should let me start there. This was -- it was in -- Schpitzer was his name. It was a sectione [indecipherable] technical high school -- so in the techn -- techn -- in Vienna. And then -- after 14, I came to the gimnasi -- into the gimnasium. And up to 14, there were only girls. We were not allowed to play with boys, or anything, no. I suppose my father, in a restaurant, has seen too much, so he tried to be sure that his girls are kept properly. And wh- when I came to the other school, this was a special class for peop -- for girls -- as a -- for

children, who come from this normal -- from this school -- from this -- to the gimnasium. And this was in a boy's school, in this class. We were only -- the only girls among 500 boys. And here were -- I was -- I met that first time, boys, but I didn't date -- I wasn't -- didn't date or anything, no. And -- I wasn't allowed to go out in the afternoon, at all. And later on, I joined the socialistition middulshula pund. And then I was on -- this was from six with eight, as a -- not in - - deny it or anything. And I was only -- every weekend -- I was only allowed to go every fortnight. Every -- every week was for my father too much. And I was only every fortnight allowed to go. And in -- in this asa socialistition middulshula pund there were from other schools, too, and girls and boys. And there I met Peppy, in that -- in that -- but he was not in the same sc-school as I was. He was in hominastation gimnasium. He learned Greek and Latin. I learned French and Latin.

Q: Why did you join that group? The middleshula --

A: My father was a social -- was a member of the s -- of the socialle democratition partae. This was allowed. This he was. And I know they came all with somebody to -- when -- because he paid a membership to the -- to that club. And I know once, this man sold him, as a book -- gaves him some tickets for a picture that -- and when it came to that, my parents didn't want to go. And then they said we should go. And we went, my -- my sister and I, we went to -- to that place.

This was in Weedenhopstrassie, where -- where we went. And then we had -- at first had, and -- and when they saw new people coming, and those three boys -- three young men, accompanied us at home, walked us home. And then we got -- come in touch with them, through that. There was -- the leader of the group was Bruno Kaiska. It was in his district. He had been living in the same district, his family, as I grew up.

Q: Where was Hansie? How were you -- how were you --

A: Hansie was much younger and she was very spoiled, because my father hadn't seen bringing us up. She was the only one he had seen grown -- growing up, because at -- at that time he was aw-away, as a soldier. And she was very spoiled and I had to -- in -- later on, a very good relationship to her. She was nearer to me than my other sister. And when it -- when she had somewhere to go, it was always me who had -- who -- who went with her and so on. We had a very good relationship.

Q: Did you love reading from a very early age? Did you start reading very young, and reading a lot?

A: Not s -- not so much, no. No, only later, because, as I told you, we were under s -- very strict control. My mother controlled the books we had read, yes. We were very, very strictly brought up. And as a -- I couldn't choose many. I sa -- I was reading in the restaurant. We had what they called salated sipter as a -- and in the restaurant I wrote the newspapers, all newspapers, in -- and -- and this [indecipherable] was, these were magazines, who were changed regularly, for the restaurant and th-this I read. And I know -- I had not -- no proper children's book or something, because only that. And I know at school we were then ask once, to -- what we have read, to write. And I wrote about a book I have read. This was the -- the -- the fourlits taleebee dershernotfa airtrabbit. This means the last laugh of the beautiful airtrabbit. So airtrabbit mea -- is Hungar -- which is --means Elizabeth. And my teacher called me and said I should read different books, because is -- she didn't find it as proper as I -- what I have written, yeah. And this I do remember. And then I got -- so later on I got -- I was a very avid reader then, later on.

This was a secret domain, what I wanted to explore.

Q: Right. Tell me how you met Peppy. You met him -- met him at a group?

A: I met him -- I have -- I -- he was in same group, but he didn't impress me at all. And he -- we had every -- ev -- at -- at my school, in the grammar school, we had every year a ball, on the day when we got the half te -- when the end of that term was. And at that ball, he was and he said he danced with me, but he didn't impress me at all. I didn't kn -- didn't even know it, that he had danced with me.

Q: Now, is --

A: And --

Q: Go ahead.

A: Yeah and -- and when I -- I was very, very happy girl, I loved school, I didn't work at school.

Tha -- I -- I was not -- not a hard worker, I -- I didn't work at all, I think. I -- I -- I -- it was more entertainment that work, this school. And I went out with boys. Not only with one, with that and that and that. And was very happy with it. And my mother was not in Vienna and she had written once to me, I should buy something for her and send it to her. And I went with a boy to -- to that shop in -- in Vienna. This was not -- it was a friend. I went out with -- with Peppy and with his friend and didn't -- didn't mean to me and I went out with him. This was in the afternoon. I got wet, it was -- started to rain and he took me to his mother, to dry me. And she dried me, offered me strawberries with cream and the gramophone was put up and we were dancing and it was very ca -- very nice afternoon. But in the evening, in the same day, it -- I had a date with Peppy, his friend. And I -- I didn't take it ser -- I didn't want to go away. I liked the dancing and I left him. I didn't go. And he was waiting for me. It was at eight o'clock. And I didn't come. So he went to his friend. And he appeared there. When -- he danced with me and told me off, when he - - wh -- during the dance, because I didn't come to the date. And -- and so it-- it was a hap -- very hap -- and so I -- it was nothing special. And Wolfgang, the other -- names in the -- name of the

other was Wolfgang and Wolfgang walked me home, but Peppy had -- could not walk me home because he had always to be at 10 o'clock home and with his mother. His mother was -- as -- didn't -- this was -- and -- and then these two young men said, "I am going out with -- with her." The one said and the other said. And once I had a date with one and a third one came, with a letter -- I should choose between the two. This letter happened to be there. This -- this was Werner Felner, it was a third one from the group. And -- and then I choose, not Peppy, I choose Wolfgang. And -- but I was not seriously interested to go out with him. And I went then on holiday to San Kilton and didn't write any more. This is -- it was -- it -- it -- it was ver -- it was nothing serious. And there, so it dropped up and a year later, or something, I -- I am got -- once I got -- I had to go to -- I wanted to go to the national library, I was writing an essay for school.

And Peppy offered me to -- to show me the ropes in the library. It's a national library, where I hadn't been before. And he went with me and at that -- at that excursion we -- I should, of course ha -- have my sister on my side and had -- have to meet her, but we didn't -- we let her -- let her and I didn't come to the national library and this was the beginning of -- of the relationship. He was -- as of we -- we were -- I didn't go to the national li-library and I didn't see the ropes and we were talking and this was the beginning of our relationship. And my sister, I left.

Q: You left?

A: Yeah. And she was complaining. She was very, very -- I -- I mean it was a mad idea to -- always to have my sister on my side. We -- sometimes when we -- she came home, she complained to my mother that -- that our talk was not all right. She -- we were talking about the - - both -- all high school students, about different subjects, where she couldn't join in and she complained to my mother. And s -- and it was an -- a terrible relationshi -- terrible -- you shouldn't do that to children.

Q: Was -- Peppy's name was Josef [indecipherable]

A: Josef, yes. Josef Olsenfet.

Q: So where does Peppy come from? Is -- was that the -- was that a nickname he had that you gave him?

A: No, everybody in every -- Josef is like here Bill. It is -- Peppy is -- is -- all J-Josephs are called Peppy in Vienna.

Q: I see.

A: This is -- I do -- I think it comes from the Italian, I don't know where is comes from, but this is like you here call Williams, Bill. This is nothing special.

Q: E-Edith, as you're -- you graduated gimnasium in 1933?

A: Yes.

Q: So, during this period of time, things are going on in Germany, the Nazi party was --

A: Yes, yes.

Q: Are you hearing about this and concerned about it?

A: Yeah, we heard the -- we heard about it, of course we heard and all that, that Hitler had -- had taken over, but it was somewhere very away. As we -- we did not expect to -- to be mixed up with it. We heard at that time --Thomas Mann came from -- from Germany, and he had a talk in - - in Vienna. It was a -- a closed talk. It was for members of the Socialist party, as all the talk, but I don't know how I got a ticket, but I had one and I know he started with the way -- with the words, "I don't know what the evening f-for you means," Evast evostat vas der a verseebadoit, that for -- for you means, "but for me it means more." Famil fermish it itboided mere. This was his first words and he explained them why he cannot be a Nazi, why he -- he -- he was jouar -- as a -- is against it. This I do remember. And then at that time, Airish Kessler came fr-from Austria

-- to Austria from -- from Germany and of course I heard him too. And all of this and it -- when we -- and I was interested of course, what happened. I read the Kampf.

Q: You did?

A: Yes, I did. No, of course ammen -- as somebody who is interested in things, I was used to look into books. And I read not only the Kampf. I read Will Rosenberg too. This was a racial -- a racialist books.

Q: Right.

A: [have read that, too. Although the Kampf was for me so vulgar. Even the language. I love German and I -- it was very, very, I -- as I loved the language very, very much at that time and I ha --was widely read at that time and the -- the -- the writing, the German only, even the language, it was so vulgar. And, what he wrote about it, that I couldn't believe that this can make an -- an impression. It was an awful book. Not only -- even when you -- objective -- not as a Jew, even when you objective, to go to the -- and -- and funny enough, I have read -- later now -- a book by Gola Mann, this is the son of Thomas Mann. It -- it is called, "An Yugen -- Youth in Germany". And in that book, he had the same, this -- he wrote about the Kampf too and he wrote about the same. He wrote -- he wrote in the book too, what an awful book it is and how awful the language is. See he -- he -- and -- and so, as a -- I couldn't believe that this can be of any -- 0-0- of any meaning to anybody.

Q: Did you read it before 1933?

A: I think -- I -- I can't say that, but I think ye -- I think yes.

Q: Before, uh-huh.

A: Yes. I think I did.

Q: So then it must have been a shock to you when he became Chancellor in Germany?

A: Yeah, it was, of course it was a shock.

Q: And what did you think of Rosenberg?

A: No, Rosen -- silly.

Q: Silly?

A: Silly, yes. About these racial differences and -- and -- silly.

Q: Did you, during this period of time, notice thing change -- noticing things changing in Austria?

A: Oth -- in Austria they came then -- the Schushnik periods, sess so chare der mokhaven were forbidden as a party and the libraries were cleaned, so we chose not to go to the library any more.

And I -- we joined then -- I had a friend who brought me in touch with foiervare -- with the fire, foiervare -- this is the people who look, oh -- who are against fires when the fire breaks out. And -- and we were in that library then, they had a very, very good library, because we didn't want -- we didn't want the abbetob library any more, because they were cleaned of books. This was in the Schushniksat and I've -- when the fartallend de shiffront was -- the -- was rolling and I -- we -- I was in -- sometimes at meetings, at forbidden meetings in -- with Bruno Kisekey. There was -- [do remember we -- there was a political meeting and we were told, should the police come butsolt -- it is a singing, a choir meeting, what we had to sing. I was in these meetings, yes. And when I was in Itew University, after "33, colleagues -- I think it was my reputation, approached me to -- to join illical coop. And ex-explained to me the selsese thame, how it works, that you have a different name and you know only the people of -- of -- of the -- this little group, so -- and all this he explained to me. He was studying physics and I must say, I was inclined to join. And Peppy was the one who said, "You can't do it." Because "36, when my -- at that time -- my father had died and he said. "You can't do -- you can't do that, you could be arrested and think of

your mother, and you can't." And he kept me. He was the sensible one in that thing. But I was inclined to join the illeeka -- the -- the anti-Fascist ishas underground ot -- at the university. But I didn't, in the end. But this young man, this student who wanted to -- to get me to it, he happened -- what I didn't know at that time, he happened to be a cousin of a friend of mine. He didn't -- but I didn't know it at that time and he's not alive any more and when he came to London, he rang me up. Years, years, years after that.

Q: Why do you think he thought -- he approached you? What sort of a reputation did you have?

A: I suppose I -- as a Socialist. I had a reputation as a Socialist.

Q: Why -- what -- can I go back a little bit? Why did you decide you wanted to go to law school?

A: Why I bisish --

Q: Yeah, how did that happen?

A: Oh, this is very simple. I -- in the restaurant, I read all the papers and there was a case th -- what's it call? How was it called? There was a Jewish -- a -- a -- a Jewish boy, a young man, who had -- who was in the Alps -- is a very famous came and h-he was walking and his father fell down and died. And he was sent -- a-accused of murdering his father and he was sentenced. I read it in every paper, what it -- how wa -- as I didn't know the name always. It's a very famous case. They say th -- they say, Austrian drifels case, they -- they called it. And he was sentenced -- yeah, in -- in -- it's a case. It's a proof of -- it's a court. They came with the Oed-Oedipus complex and with such nonsense and toos -- and he was sentenced to -- a-after two years in prison, he was -- some -- and so he came out and he came to America and he became one of a famous phot-photographer here. He has photographed everybody who had a name here, but I -- I

Q: It's not Eisenstadt?

A: Hm? Not Eisen -- no, not Eisenstadt. He was -- I sa -- I will -- it will come to me later on.

And I -- I -- and this brought me to the -- to -- to know. I had such feeling -- I want -- I wanted to come -- to learn more about it, yes.

Q: Right. Did the fact that Peppy was also going to law school --

A: He was -- yes, but this didn't -- he was a year in front of me, but this was not -- my father wanted me actually to study medicine. He liked a woman in a white coat. And he had -- yes -- and I was already at the university to -- to go to -- to medic -- to en-enroll for medicine. And then I got him around to go to law school. But I was already -- you had -- when you went, you had to hire a -- a ca -- a -- a closet for anatomy and I was supposed to do this with a -- with another one, but the other one came at that time, nin asa somewhere, it didn't come and later on I got my father to agree that I go to law school. But he wanted -- he was -- as of -- wanted me to study, made it seem. But I wouldn't have made a good doctor. I was too sensitive for that, no. And I didn't -- I thought this -- tha -- so I come to -- came to law. And I loved it from the first moment.

But it was after -- after the first Shtatakson. This you do in Austria in Roman law -- in church law. I had to learn church law. And -- and in all German law. I did it without any special course.

There are special courses for, but I -- I didn't bother to go to. I couldn't -- I didn't want -- I always didn't want to be too expensive for my parents. This was always my -- didn't want it to have to pay a course for me. And -- and -- but I -- I passed the exam and after the exam, I -- I was -- I didn't -- I decided not to do anything. This was in April, somewhere, after three terms.

And when I decided not to do anything after the old term, just to be free. Just to get out and just [inaudible], and I did. You had to -- you had to belake, it was called belake -- as a -- to choose what you want to hear. And I had only one lecture, a nine -- nine hour lecture a week, only. And 11 ho -- 11 hours was a minimum, but it was three years as a only silliness that I didn't have

more, that I had took only s -- nine lectures. And when I came forth to -- when I wanted to -- for the s-second sht -- state exam, after eight terms, I was told em -- is -- a term is missing. I have only nine hours and this doesn't count. I have to make -- to stay another half a year. I went to sittykarn and everywhere, it was hopeless, hopeless. I was very unhappy, you can imagine. I was prepared to end -- to go to the exam and this silliness would have code -- code me half a year.

And I didn't say to anybody -- not to my mother, not to anybody, and one colleague, I told it, one [indecipherable]. He said to me -- he came a few days ago to me and said if I want to -- if I want, a colleague, another colleague wants to meet me, he was the son of the first attorney in -- in Austria and his secre -- his friend was secretary of the Minister of Education. This was "37 already, in the -- in the Schushnik time. I said, "Yes, I want to meet him." And he made me -- and itta -- as a -- an appointment with the secretary of the Minister of Education. This was, at that time, Baron Parasini. I went to the ministry and met this colleague. He received me with hand cuss -- hand kiss and -- and he said to me to make an application and the law was changed.

For my sake, the law was changed, from -- it is in my book. When you have -- when you have the book, it is in my book from -- from that time on, nine hours are enough -- for -- to -- at that time -- this was already in the Schushnik time and I went -- sent to the uni -- netiskotes over the university. I made the -- the application through the university, through the Minister of Education, I have met him. And -- and I get it -- got it back through the university and then I said, "Now, you see, I can -- it's all right." And [indecipherable] said to me that God can do everything, he said to me. And he mentioned for my sake was a -- a law changed at the university. In my -- in one of these papers, in my papers, there it is written in it, that nine hours are enough from now on, to -- for a term. It was in the Shushnik time and there was a Jew and -- when it is -- I didn't feel as -- I still wonder how it happened.

Q: Tell me when -- was your fath -- did your father die suddenly, did he have an illness?

A: Yeah, he died suddenly.

Q: So that must have been a very big shock for everybody.

A: Yes, it was. He was only 50, he was never ill. He was never ill and he died of a heart attack.

Q: So that changed --

A: Yeah, he wa -- he -- he died actually in Bartkastan. At that time, he -- we -- he had sold his -- his restaurant and he was manager in a Jewish hotel in Bartkastan, the only Jewish hotel which was allowed there, it was. And he -- he came there and he died in May, and so he -- he died there, yes. It was a -- a big shock for us.

Q: And how did things change for the family then? You were living [indecipherable]

A: We were in Vinia -- were in Vienna and we got a telegram. My mother and -- and her brother went with her and he was buried in Vienna. He was brought to Vienna because he -- so that we can go to his grave at least. He was buried in Vienna.

Q: So you -- were you living still at home, while you were going to school?

A: Yes. Yes, yes, I -- we -- I was living at home. I was a student at that time. "36 he died, on the third of June, "36. Thirteens of Sivon is his -- yeah, yeah, it's that, thirteen of Sivon.

Q: And your mother then had to go to work?

A: My -- no, my mother was -- established herself as a dressmaker. She had, when she was young, she had made the -- what you call in wein the master. In -- in -- in -- in Austria there is a giltsistin, not like her, that an-anybody can establish themself. This -- and he had made -- had made the -- the exams, the speci -- all necessary, to be a dressmaker and now she -- she had worked as a dressmaker during the first World War, when my father was a soldier. And because at that time you didn't get so much money, then in the second -- in the second World War, Hitler

was very generous with money and -- and he was -- and now she established herself again as a dressmaker. And we had always work, or so it was. She had even an employee at that time, yes.

Q: So you didn't have to work at that time? You were still going to school --

A: I wa -- yeah, I always worked, when I was at school. I always worked, I always gave lessons for -- as a -- to -- as a student and | always wanted to be independent. I always wanted to have pocket money and so I came to my friend. I said my -- this was my -- in -- in the same house where I live -- where we lived, there lived a coup -- a family, Christina Denner. As a -- she lost her mother when she was 14. There were two girls and her father was looking for somebody to help the girls to come as a -- for the -- in the school, because you can imagine when the mother is ill of TB, that the girls were not very much involved in school. And I was recommended to him. I had a good name and a good reputation in [indecipherable]. And it was a house -- the concierge of the house. And I was recommended. I did -- I say -- I have seen them. They were living in the same house, because everybody had a dog and went out with the dog. But I didn't know them.

And so I came in that house and I was then every afternoon in that house and the father was never there. Two girls of 14 and 11 were living on their own, practically. All on their own. And I was like -- I go to them and li -- as -- at first I -- I went to them to earn some money, but I was then like the elder sister. I was involved in everything and they came, like girls with everything to me. I went to school to ask how they are getting on. She went said, to the hundersackademi and I helped her, so she passed the hundersackademi. And -- and so it came that we were so near to each other, because there was nobody and I liked them. We -- we -- I know I wrote even a love letter for her when she had with her boyfriend the quarrel and she only copied it. Yes, so -- aS a SO -- SO -- End of Tape One, Side A

Beginning Tape One, Side B

A: -- near to each other, because there was nobody and I liked her. We -- we -- I know I wrote even a love letter for her when she had with her boyfriend the quarrel and she only copied it.

Yes, SO -- as a so -- So near was our relationship.

Q: And what was the difference in age between you and Christine?

A: What?

Q: What was the difference --

A: Eight years.

Q: Eight years?

A: Yes.

Q: She's eight years younger?

A: Yes, she was -- yes, she was at that feel -- 14 and I was at the university already. I was a student. I think I was from two to five or two to six, I don't know any more, how long. I was every day -- every day in the house.

Q: Did -- were you -- did you become closer to your -- to your mother after your father died?

A: We -- I was very, very close to my mother.

Q: Always? [indecipherable]

A: Yes. More -- closer then -- closer then, yes. I was working i-in -- helping in the dress making business, too. I -- I don't know when I started, actually. It came very easily to me, only for the second -- for the second shtatsberfong, I went to a course. And this was three times a week and it is still this ex -- still exists and this was a judge who had this course and he mentioned from nine to 12, or even longer, we were exposed to questions and answers around and when you got up without a break -- without a break. And when you -- were -- you got up at half past 12 or

something, after such a session, you felt as though -- down -- you -- you were really drained. But he sa -- did it for years and for the -- for the second shtatsberfong. And -- and you make the shtatsberfong, this is -- the shtatsberfong is made for the service in the administration. And you make about the same subject a regrozum. A regrozum is made for the doctorate. But you have to make two exams, about the same subjects. There's always four subjects or five. And for the -- at the university, for the -- for the -- anyway, I made one exam on the 11th of October and the second exam on the 14th of October, the same subject. One for the administration service and one for the doctorate. And as it was, when I came to university and started law, I thought I will meet a lot of Jews, because in Vienna there were all the lawyers. The most of the lawyers were Jews, but this didn't happen. There were the -- the -- there were not in -- not so many Jews on -- at the university because the others -- the not -- the Gentiles who started, they always -- they fill the administration later -- later on. You didn't see them, but the Jews had to go into business, in a way and work as -- in a free -- free profession, but the others were feeling a Jew wasn't -- wasn't taken into the administration at that time. And I don't think there were ever a Jewish judge in Austria. And they always -- and so this was a discrepancy. I have only heard of Jewish lawyers, but they're n-not of the people in the administration who were lawyers.

Q: When you describe administration, can you explain what that means, because it seems that it's somewhat different from -- when you say a lawyer and administration, you mean -- do you mean the government?

A: Yeah, I mean -- I mean lunder -- yeah, lunder's help men and -- and bergermeisters and -- and the mayors and all of this, what you feel in the ministry -- in the ministry. Judges and -- and all what -- what you think in ministry. But you don -- you meet -- don't meet these people, usually.

Q: What had you hoped to become as a lawyer? What did you want --

A: I didn't, I -- what I wanted -- actually my aunt, an aunt of mine, who had -- she -- the agency for Buick in Austria -- for the Buick, American cars.

Q: Cars?

A: She was in industry and she promised me that she will help me to get a job in industry. But I never thought that I could be a judge. When is -- it -- it was my -- would have been my wish, but I never regarded that as a --a real possibility in Austria. No, I never did. She promised me as a -- when I finished, she will help me to get a -- a -- proposition in any firm. But I didn't have a -- a specific hope or anything. I just studied, with -- and with love -- and I loved it.

Q: Did you study with Peppy also, even though you were in different classes? Did you talk --

A: We -- we talked -- as of -- we didn't study together in that way, but we talked about a lot of law and we talked about everything. And when we were in company, and he -- a law question came up, everyone turned to him, never to me, to gerdel, he was -- always to him. But he never would answer without throwing me into the -- into the -- as a -- into the conversation. He would never talk about -- above me, never. This made -- this was something very attractive to me too, because you know how it is, gerdels, on the second hand.

Q: What -- what do you think made him so different? Why was he so different?

A: He wasn't different, but people regarded boys -- and he -- at first he was a year -- a year in front of me and -- and it is just society.

Q: No, no, what I mean is why, wh-what made him different from other men, at the time?

A: From other -- why I got to -- I -- I don't know. This is -- I -- I -- he loved me and I loved him.

This can't -- can't be explained in any way. But we -- we had -- we had everything -- discussed everything together. I didn't discuss it with my sister, because my relationship was always a bit strained with her and my mother was busy and was wor -- and he was nearest to me. And he had

a difficult life because of his mother. I didn't know that and I accepted it and I helped him in a -- in -- in that way, that I went a lot to him and he went -- we went out. He had -- at 10 o'clock he had to be at home at an age where it is not e -- not yusherin. And so it came. When he made an exam, I was sitting behind him, usually. Once I was so near to him in an exam, that he was on the chair, he was moving about, that I put my foot on the chair that he couldn't move. So near. At a state exam, I was so near to him. And we ex -- as a -- discussed law, of course. And bought books and everything.

Q: Did he have a good sense of humor?

A: I think so -- do -- I tho -- I think so, too, yes, I think so. As a -- good laugh, it -- it -- it was very, as a -- it was very near to him. Because I wasn't so near to my sister, and the other one.

And when -- I know my youngest sister, she learned French at school and my -- and she used -- she was very spoiled and she wanted -- my father wanted me to do her homework with her, but I didn't want, of course. And he learned French so that he could ho -- could take my place. But he learned at school Greek and Latin. He couldn't -- he didn't -- and he started to learn French. I-It was the beginning of French, so that he could take my place. When we -- we --

Q: [indecipherable]

A: Yes?

Q: Let's talk a little bit about emigration. Did you -- did you -- all of you in your family and Peppy, begin to talk about leaving Austria?

A: No, I -- Peppy didn't dare to talk about leaving Austria because his mother said, when she -- at first -- he was brought up as a Jew and he left the Jewish religion only after Hitler came. So he -- after the Nuremberger laws, he was regarded as a Jew, not as a half-Jew. Even his mother was still a Jew. His mother became Jewish to get married, but not with her brain or with her feeling,

just to get married. To -- he -- to the rich Jew, to the Jewish -- and she also left then the Jewish religion, but she was not a -- so that she doesn't be regarded as a Jew. But he was regarded as a -- as a Jew and he w -- he was obliged to wear the star. He didn't do it, but he va -- he was obliged to do it. And of course we -- when we talked -- when he talked at home, I mentioned immigration, then his mother said she's jumping out of the window, she commit suicide. He was her only son and his mother h-had strong will and his father had died years ago. I didn't ha -- I didn't know his father. His father was -- ha -- I don't know even the illness. It was a mental illness, it was something -- he died in a mental asylum. And he was in for long time. They went once a week, the mother and the son, to visit him in that -- it must have been as he was a teenager, it must pas -- have been a harrowing time. Yoyosee. And I think this time was when the power of the mother was established, about the son -- that he was the only son. She -- the family of his father paid her a pension, she didn't work. And they gave -- and so everybody of the family -- I didn't know all the family, gave something and she got it like a pension, without -- bit -- betting -- without saying -- paying, or -- or s -- even -- she didn't have to say thank you.

But she didn't work to bring up the son. And -- seez -- and s-she got then married again and she kept her marriage secret from the family, so that she gets a pension [indecipherable] that's her pay.

Q: Why don't we take a break so we can change the tape?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: Because you have -- End of Tape One, Side B

Beginning Tape Two, Side A

Q: Okay. Edith, when we ended the last tape, you were talking about Peppy and emigration. I wanted to s-start, before getting to the Anschluss, with whether the -- you and your mother and your sisters were also talking about emigration?

A: Yes. We were all -- actually, my sister, my -- Mimi, who was near me, she -- sh -- our -- our concierge where we lived in that house, as th -- she took off our -- we had a plate that my mother's a dressmaker. They took it off and they were worried. They thought all -- we are exempted because my father was an invalid and a soldier in the first World War and the Jews were -- they were against it, the Nazi, they were all somewhere, so this was an abstract -- abstract notion, somewhere on top, but not for us, it was and she recommended -- she didn't know the people there and she put m-my sister in contact with a Jewish comasherot, it was called, as a -- in -- in [indecipherable]. He -- and he told her about baitar -- about this illegal transport. And my sister went and with -- with her -- she got married before she left on -- in December and on the fourth of -- of February, she went with her husband on an illegal transport. And she was -- sh -- this transport was a very unhappy one. It -- sh-she got Scarlet fever in Romania and she was in hospital there and when -- they had a -- a fire on the ship and they were saved by Italian war ships and brought to Roldus and in Roldus they had to wait until fum -- some money comes from America and a new ship. And she was on her way, I think until end of August. From February until the end of August. But in the end, the ship a-arrived in Natania. And the youngest sister had joined a -- a Jewish youth camp, Shamere Hadsa'eer. And she got a visa certificate as a member of Shamere Hadsa'eer and she went on the day when the Kristallnacht -- on the Kristallnacht -- on the tenth of -- of November, at that time, she went normally over Trieste, to Israel with normal fare, they -- as a -- the illegal transport were all very expensive, because the Gestapo had

to get their share of it and she went normally and she had a certificate from zavitzoh to a school, she was 17. And she has -- must have written -- made a tour of Israel as it was and our letters -- our correspondence was veero to Belgrade, where my mother's sisters was married. And my mother's sister ben -- put the letters in a different envelope and send it to Israel, because at that time, was war. And so we got our letters back. And this -- my sister's letters stopped completely.

And she must have written something about the country, what the censor didn't approve of it.

That was -- she was -- she must have had maybe a trip or something and she couldn't write any more. And my mother didn't get any letters any more from her, she was crying sometimes, the child does -- isn't alive any more, because she didn't [indecipherable] she's all right, but she didn't believe it, because she didn't write -- my youngest sister -- no letter of my s -- youngest sister came through. This must be the British censor in -- in Palestine must have -- and after many months, then we got a letter and she had the idea to write she had an accident, she writes with the left hand. So this was not recognized as the same handwriting. But this -- my mother was crying sometimes and said the child isn't alive any more.

Q: Did you continually hear from Mimi, the other sister?

A: Yes, we did, but she -- but the youngest -- and she wrote she's all right, but the -- but none letter from -- this must be the -- the mit -- milit -- military censorship.

Q: So how come you and your mother stayed in Vienna and the other two sisters left? Was it -- w-was the --

A: Well, we couldn't -- a-at first it was one after the other and my mother had to settle something, to pay for my sister's fare. We had lazaklub cecils and with a Persian carpet, when everybody was at that time, buying Jewish things and -- and so it -- it hadn't slo -- we didn't go so quickly, it was all a matter of time. And I was not thinking -- actually, strai -- other -- a peeper

-- not me, myself, other people had made -- found somebody who would apply in England for me, as -- but it didn't come to -- it didn't -- I wasn't very interested. I didn't force it with -- with power or with -- with energy, to go abroad, because I thought it will -- as a -- I always hoped it will be over soon and I wanted to stay with Peppy and to see it through with him. And my mother was working as a dressmaker and we had on the -- on -- when the Kristallnacht was, two days ago, a colleague of mine came to us and ask if he can sleep that night and when the Kristallnacht is with us, because he -- we were only women and in a district which was not a diplomatic district. The neighbor of us was the Polnish embassy and -- in that day. And h-his brother was told by an friend, who was in the SR that the Kristallnacht is coming. He did know already and he was told that he and his brother should not be at home. Because at that time, they took only men in the Kristallnacht, not women. My mother said of course, yes, he can sleep with us when he is in danger and he did. And so he -- they came to collect him and his brother -- his brother slept somewhere, too. They -- an-and only the old parents were at home and the two young man were saved from Buchenwald. But he did know it before, an SS man had told him.

This was a spontaneous kuntgabel [indecipherable] from the Nazis.

Q: Can you go back a little bit and describe what you remember about the Anschluss and about the resignation of Shussnik?

A: There we were on -- he -- he -- I was in the course. I made a course for the third -- start the exam in Rigarosen. And we -- this was in the afternoon. He -- in the late afternoon he collected me, we were walking down the Ringstrasse and there were nasties -- Nazis making noise -- na -- was not very comfortable, we feel -- didn't feel comfortable and we went into the tenth -- tenth district, this is the working class district and there somebody shouted from a window, "Shussnik has resigned," you know? And in the street -- and so he took me and at that time in his arm and

We -- We gi -- as a -- promised each other to look -- to come through this thing by our -- together.

And then he was -- Shussnik ased it was a Friday. And on Saturday, there was plant a folksabstemung as a -- a referendum -- a referendum. If Austria should be a part of Germany or not. If Hitler should -- but si -- Hitler did know that he would not win, because at that time, they thought -- they thought the itemocart ashiparti went together with the -- with the fartalandishin front and he wouldn't know they wouldn't -- he wou -- he did know. So he -- h -- this is why he - - he -- he invaded Austria and he -- on Sunday, there was no referendum, but he invaded Austria, he -- and this referendum was later on, with 99 percent is it usually -- no, it's not setime. Or with 98 or 99, as though this was then and so it came. But he would not have won at that time, Hitler, because a sociale democratishipati and sifartalishifund jerhovan wel -- were together against him.

Q: D-Do you remember the -- the march into Austria -- Vienna?

A: No. I wa -- at that time, thank God, there was no television, we couldn't see the muss and we couldn't see that. We were at home and we're unhappy. You can't imagine. Actually, on that Sunday, my grandparents had to go an wedding in Shtockerau. This was a day of -- they're going -- we didn't go. We were afraid we may not be able to come home again or something. And so the Golden wedding fell down because we were afraid, we stayed at home. And thank God there was no -- we didn't -- we didn't -- no television, so we didn't see all. Now I see it on television, but not at that time.

Q: What did you expect? What did you -- you were afraid, what were you afraid of at that point, do you think? Do you remember?

A: Afraid? N-No -- what? That the Nazi get the power. Not beesh -- not -- nothing special, aso nots -- nothing special, but that -- very soon, after they got power, there was -- the first order

came, that all Jews had to bring to the police, their radio and typewriters. This was not allowed to the Jews, they had to be brought to the -- not for money, just to -- to brought to the police. They - - and so we didn't have a typewriter, only a radio and not a very good one, ifa so we didn't lose at that time, very much. And so it came one after the other. Then all this -- the children were at once thrown out of school. They couldn't go to school as a ve -- any more and at the university, I were -- we -- I had applied for a termin for my se -- state exam in April, but instead of a termin, I got my papers back. I got -- and there was no state -- I was completely prepared to make -- I was ex-expected to prom -- to have the promotion to be a doctor in the summer, because this was the last state exam in Rigarosen in -- in economy and -- and state [indecipherable] that we had to learn the Constitution of America, the Constitution of Britain and all of this we had to learn. And the Constitution of Austria and Germany, all this for that exam. And economy we had to learn.

We had to learn the different failries of economy and all that. And I was pre -- completely prepared to -- for that. But I didn't get to termin any more.

Q: So, was -- Peppy got his degree the year before --

A: He had it a year before, yes.

Q: So all the Jews could not take that exam?

A: No, no, no, th-this was the end. Some of my colleagues did it later on. One of my colleague -- his name is Auchilled, I -- he wrote me a short while ago, as o -- he didn't feel -- he could go to Switzerland. I suppose with such a name, you could go. And he was -- he didn't -- he went back to Austria and he became dean -- what you call dean dakan, of the university in Lintz. He is ri -- living now in o -- in Vienna. He's retired now and he's living in Vienna. He wrote -- I had a letter from him a short while ago.

Q: So then what happened? Very shortly you have to register, all the Jews have to register.

A: This was not shortly, it's slowly -- it slowly came. This was "41, then. This was 30 --

Q: So what happens --

A: We are -- were living -- we were living -- we were working, we were sewing. We had always work and my mother was a very gifted dressmaker and we had -- and we worked, as a -- lived quietly.

Q: But did you -- you have to move out of your apartment?

A: Yeah, this -- we had to move out. They wrote us, said they have to give us notice, because this house where we lived was, before -- and -- was a archbish -- a -- a palace, from an a-archbishop Solvato. And all this counted -- we got notice, ha -- Hapsburg [indecipherable]. And we -- w -- see were then sent to the ghetto. But we lived in -- we got a room in the -- in the flat of my f -- brother-in-law's aunt. His aunt and sh -- and so we -- in the ghetto, she had a -- her ow -- flat in the ghetto. There were two rooms and a -- what they call in Vienna, cabinet -- a small room. And in the first room the old lady lived, in the second room two sisters, one of them was married, lived. And in the third room, we lived. And we were still sewing there and was very, very -- and so had only sewing machine in the bats and something. And we had to walk through the first -- the kitchen was in front, in front of the rooms. But we were all sensible people, we didn't quarrel. And there were no quarrels and stev -- no recklessness or anything. We -- we didn't know each other before, but still it was all a very, very sensible living together.

Q: The name of the woman whose apartment it was, it was --

A: Yes, it was Miman.

Q: Miman.

A: Mrs. Miman -- from the old lady.

Q: Was that difficult, to make the move?

A: Oh yeah, wi -- was -- it wasn't easy, but y -- we had to do it and we did it. And -- ind -- before that, my -- how -- that you have an idea, in Shtockerau, my -- my grandfather, who was at that time a widower, his moth -- his wife had died, he was a diabetic, had a stroke and was an ill man.

And he had to live his -- to go out of his house, not to take anything, that the Nazis came -- came -- can go in. He was, for 45 years, living in that house, had brought up his family there and he didn't understand how the -- what happens. He really didn't understand. He was sent to live with a distant cousin in a -- in a -- in one room. My mother send me to live there, too, because you had to bring him to the toilet, he couldn't walk alone to the toilet. He died soon after. He -- my -- my -- his son went -- as arranged then that he lives with a nurse -- in the flat of a nurse. But he -- he -- but he -- he didn't understand, we couldn't explain the Nazis to him and he died soon. 1940 he died.

Q: And your grandmother died in "38, after the --

A: My -- my gr -- after, yes, after. She had a -- ha-had a hernia operation and died in the course of the operation.

Q: This was your mother's parents?

A: My mother's mother and father.

Q: And what happened to your father's parents?

A: M-My --my -- the parents -- my father was the youngest one. The parents of my father had died years ago, in the 20's. And so my youngest sister, Johanna, as it is in Ashkenazi family, was already called after my grandmother, because she had died a short time ago, before. You know that is a -- so she was called Johanna, after the grandmother.

Q: Now, what is happening in terms of your s -- your social circle? Is it becoming [indecipherable]

A: Oh, the sa -- we -- the social circle [inaudible]. My -- my mother could always go to one of her -- when she was a widow, to one of her sisters-in-law or something, she was not lonely in that way. And in the end she had us. She had a -- loved to do and was sewing and people -- some came and some lep -- some didn't come, visit is always. Our best friend, my sister's best friend, she was -- we were together on holidays. She was a student of medicine atall. They didn't come.

I went once and ask if I can sleep a night in their ha -- in their flat, when I didn't have anywhere - - they said no, they hadn't room for me and they became such Nazis, that they were -- after the war, forbidden to -- to be doctors in Vienna. The -- she and her -- her -- her boyfriend, at that time, later her husband, they were medici -- studied medicine and I suppose she became a doctor without the end exams and I suppose sh -- we were already afraid of the Jewish doctors -- of the conquerins. She became such Nazis that -- that they were not allowed to be -- practice in Vienna.

Actually, her nephew was still studying medicine as well, after the war and came to Tel Aviv.

Because when you work a term in Tel Aviv, in the Jewish hospital, it is counted in Vienna, as term. Not in any -- when you go to Spain, it isn't counted, but tella -- as a -- a Jewish hospital is counted. When he was working a term, three months or something, in -- in a hospital in Tel Aviv as a student, he came to visit me. They sent him to me. He came to visit me. And so she's now dead, she died of a har -- heart attack and -- and -- this friend, but so -- so the circle changed.

You had suddenly -- your best friend was suddenly a Nazi.

Q: Was this surprising -- was this surprising to you?

A: No, it wasn't -- it was accepted by us. It was accep --

Q: Did it anger you?

A: What?

Q: Did it anger you?

A: Anger you, ve -- of course we -- we didn't feel a -- we -- we did feel, but this wa -- we were up to the la -- before my -- my sister left for Israel, the evening before -- they were coming to us to say -- to -- to -- we -- to -- with a present -- with a present for the traveling, for -- I think it was a trainings accen -- anzug at that time. And because this was -- si -- si -- I think it comes out in the book by Goldhagen. This different of the Jews -- of the Jewish neighbor and the Jewish amid -- aso -- a-administration on top somewhere, who was -- wants to reign the world. I think it come -- [have the feeling, when I read Goldhagen's book, I had the feeling that he understood that.

And this was what happened, really.

Q: So that -- you're saying that people became afraid of this abstract emotion --

A: Yeah, pe-people were --

Q: -- of the [indecipherable]

A: Yes, they were -- and -- and -- they said also Germany was on top of everything. There was the -- the expression, "Un deutshen raison vil develt kanasan." Do you understand it? "Un deutshen raison." this is the -- on the German way of -- of living maybe, "Vil," the wer, "Vil," will the world be healthy, or something. And the expression is, un -- un -- "Un deutshen raison vil develt kanasan." That's what this was. And -- and -- you ha-have to understand, the Nazis gave every German a possibly to feel about others, on top of others. And everybody was suddenly something special, because every other --even of -- if it was a Pole or Czech or anything, was underneath. And so, I had one of m-my schoolmates in the primary school was working in a factory where they made underwear. And we both fa -- she came to us in the set -- set -- she gets it cheaper and sold it to us, and we had wonderful underwear cheap -- at the cheaper price. But, it was stolen -- but we didn't know. And she was sentenced to prison for that.

She didn't give us a name -- our name and so we were not connected with it, but she was, in the

end found out and -- and sent to prison. And her mother, when the Nazi came, suddenly came to me -- to me personally on the street and express her pity for me. And so this, I fa -- it was horrible, can you imagine? This -- her daughter was sent to prison because of theft and -- and sh- she fel -- suddenly were on top somewhere and expressed her pity to me. This was -- this -- I do remember that. This was a horrible experience. And so everybody was now some -- a step higher in the society and we were the lowest. And this was -- was something -- what the Germans -- the -- the -- they really felt above everybody. Not only about -- a-above the Jews, above everybody.

Q: Can you describe some of the restrictions that you had once the Nazis took over?

A: All the na -- we -- there were restrictions, the Jews were not allowed in certain streets. But we -- we didn't take notice of it. Actually, I was jaywalking once, as it is -- with all this hat full and a policeman -- i-in Vienna when you ha -- were jaywalking, you had to pay five shillings as punishment. A policeman came to me and ask five shillings. I said, "I haven't got any money, I'ma Jew. I haven't got any money." And then he didn't ask a money any more. I didn't have to pay. I have not paid this fi -- but I say to, "I have no money, I am a Jew." To the policeman. This was a Nazi time.

Q: Do you think that was -- that wasn't typical, that someone wouldn't [indecipherable]

A: I don't know, I -- but it happened to me. It happened to me.

Q: Were there times, restricted times to buy food, or only certain places where you could buy food?

A: Not at that time, later on. Not at that time, not in the beginning. I can't remember when it started, I can't -- I couldn't say that. Later on the Jews had different -- we got the ration books before the war started, already. Everybody ha -- was a week or something -- before the war started, the ration books were already distributed. And it -- it later ca -- and -- is it, is -- [had a

pupil, I always -- I told you I always gave lessons. She was a nurse and she wanted to study medicine and this -- she had to learn Latin. She was about this -- older than I was, about 30's.

And -- and I ta-taught her Latin for that and she was in Social Security somewhere involved and the Nazis gave at once everybody who was in Social Security got a food parcel, everybody. And she wa -- had to tell who -- to whom she got the food parcel and she got the food parcel to a Jewish family, because she said they didn't have anything. So she was -- had one sect -- she lost her job [indecipherable]. She said it was -- she -- she did it because they didn't have anything, they were in need, but it was not meant for Jews. And so this was the end of her career.

Q: Were you hungry?

A: Wasn't -- can't say that we were hungry. Actually, my uncle in -- in Belgrade, he was working for the donut armshifartska sayshaft, and he send us food. They -- with a capit -- with the skippers. When the ship came to --to Vienna from Belgrade, the skippers came to us and brought us food. He send us, this uncle.

Q: So that must have helped.

A: This helped, yes.

Q: Did things start getting worse after the war started in "39?

A: I was very disappointed that ween wasn't bombed. Actually, yeah, I was enjoying. When I -- I -- I was rejoicing when the war started. I hope this is the end. And I was very disappo -- I hope that the allieta will come and -- and bomb Vienna at once, and they didn't and I was very disappointed that -- that not in -- in six weeks, Germany was bombed and -- and was -- that it wasn't an end. This is -- I was not sorry that -- when the war started. I was very, very gay at -- I was never -- didn't believe a minute that Hitler will mo -- will win the war. I didn't win -- I didn't think that.

Q: But you underestimated his --

A: Yeah, well --

Q: -- possibilities.

A: Of course -- of course. I hoped always it will be end. When -- when -- when Paris fell, Peppy and I was in an -- at a lecture in the weena orania. And somebody came out and said Paris fell.

And so he took me, he was af -- on -- on the -- on the -- in the middle of the lecture, h-he -- he put his arm around me, I was af -- he was afraid I would do something or have things and when Mussolini entered, we were walking -- we were walking around the donikanai, but when I heard that Mussolini entered, I got sick. I got -- I got -- [had to go home. I got doof -- how do you say?

I wa -- I was completely sick. Ca -- bodily sick.

Q: [indecipherable]

A: Yeah. When I heard that Musso-Mussolini entered the war, I -- I had to go home, I was sick.

Q: What -- what do you think happened to you? You thought that there was --

A: 1-- I -- I don't know. My body didn't -- didn't do any -- as a -- I -- [h -- I had -- I -- I was co - - co -- really sick. I had to go home, put to bed, was really sick. Because this was such a shock, that Mussolini entered the war.

Q: Now, at this time, Peppy is hiding that he's Jewish, you're not hiding that you're Jewish?

A: No. I -- I -- man -- I had nobody to hide it far --except you re -- you didn't wear a star and I moved about in Vienna like -- like normally. Actually, I never had the feeling I have enemies or anything.

Q: You didn't?

A: Na -- even later on, no. I never had the feeling. I was a very happy Viennese girl. I only wanted that this people, the Nazis are -- are away. And -- and even -- hadn't -- wasn't afraid of

any special one and never had the feeling I have somebody who would be my enemy or would do me something personally.

Q: Do you think that you were quite different from other -- from other Jews? I mean you were living in the ghetto, did you notice a different kind of feeling from other people that were there?

A: N-No, no. We -- as 0 -- we -- we were -- I was never one who had much to say and my society was Peppy and we played a lot of chess together, we talked about it and -- and went for long walks in the parta at that time and -- and on stonacanals or in -- we -- and in -- I was sewing with my mother and so it was. We were working -- I came -- he came every evening and this was a very, very long walk from the tents [indecipherable] to -- to the second -- to the place where we were living. He was -- had a walk of at least an hour, every day. One way.

Q: So Edith, did you never see mistreatment of Jews on the streets, that would --

A: [have seen -- when they had to wash this -- I -- I was prepared to be -- to have to go too, but I wasn't taken. I -- but my youngest sister, she was picked up on the street once, as a Jew. And -- and she was taken -- she was 17 -- she was taken to a place, she had to sew on buttons on uniforms. And in that place, she saw in that next room, pe -- Jews with beards, be forced to make kneebo -- athletic exercises -- exercises. She saw that. And she was so disturbed that she didn't go home at once. She walks o the steer -- streets and when she came home, she was completely disturbed. My Hansie, my youngest sister.

Q: So how -- knowing that that happened, or even seeing some of it, how do you account for your own not feeling as if you had any enemies?

A: Not personally. I had never the feeling this is per -- as a -- I saw Nazis, but -- but -- but I never had the feeling that I have a personal -- that somebody would come and -- and want vengeance on me or anything, no, never.

Q: But you certainly experienced the Nazis as your enemies, but not --

A: Yeah, yes, of course. Of course.

Q: In some abstract way, but not --

A: Yes, yes, yes. Somebody you avoided. And it was forbidden to go to pictures, it was forbidden to go in -- in some streets. It was -- everything was forbidden, but when you ha -- when everything is forbidden, you have to live with it. You -- you -- or ignore it.

Q: So you didn't get depressed?

A: I don't know.

Q: You got [indecipherable]

A: I was nervous sometimes, I was nervous. I know Peppy borrowed -- borrowed me then, sanitogen or something from -- to -- to quiet my nerves. But occasionally, this is.

Q: Do you remember the day you got the notice about having to register as a Jew? In April --

A: This was "41. In May for -- April -- in -- e-end of April, "41. Ev-Every Jew had to be registered and -- and we went, name -- as age came to it, we went too. And we were in a long kel queue nitsa Nazis or everything. They made everything so as it hurts most. They -- as 0 -- there were thousands of Jews had to go at nine o'clock. You can imagine the queue. And when I was - - suddenly a lorry came, a Nazi SS arm -- SS man it was, sprang up and who was looking young and pay -- able to work, was taken out in that way and put on the lorry and brought to a labor exchange and there we were obliged and -- to sign a contract for six weeks, to work on -- ona farm in -- in -- in north -- in -- in nor -- in the north of Germany. My mother was taken too, she looked young. And -- but -- this I managed, that she is not taken.

Q: How?

A: Is -- I'm -- I don't know any more, but I made -- made out she is my companion. She is looking, she is only my -- coming with me. But she was not and so I -- it happened, it -- it -- I was successful and she could go home. And -- ons -- a few days later, on the west bonhofe, we went with the transport, to Osterberg. And then I started to write these letters from Osterberg.

Q: Let me ask you something, why -- wh -- what made you think to separate yourself fr -- to get your mother not to come with you? What were you concerned about at that --

A: I didn't expect any -- anything good, whatever --

Q: No.

A: I didn't expect anything good coming from that, no. I didn't know exactly what is coming, but I didn't expect anything good from that.

Q: But why would they bele -- when you say that she was your companion --

A: Yeah.

Q: Were -- were they as-assuming she wasn't Jewish? She had just [indecipherable]

A: No, no, no, no, no. She was my mother, let -- I -- I made that my mother just came, as a -- a -- it happened, I was successful. I can't say maybe it could have been different. There were women with 50 i-in -- in that queue, but I was -- I happened to be successful.

Q: Now, did you have anything with you when you were taken? A suitca -- I mean -- were -- were you just taken?

A: We wer-were ta -- no, n --

Q: Just taken?

A: So -- nothing.

Q: So you get to Osterberg --

A: Yes.

Q: After a few weeks on this [indecipherable]

A: Yeah, we had -- on a certain day, we had to co -- go the westbarn office at transport to Osterberg. I thought that -- we didn't know where to go. We didn't know where -- where we went then. To -- in -- we just had to in the -- in the transport.

Q: And how were they treating you at this -- at this time?

A: On the transport?

Q: Yeah.

A: There was -- there was somebody who was the leader, we -- as a woman said she is the leader, but this was quite when -- we had -- we went to Liepsig and from there was normal --

Q: Were you [indecipherable]

A: Sh-She came only and said nobody should use any lipstick or any make-up. This was -- s-she didn't care about lug -- about us, only she wanted -- as a -- to put us down. Nobody should ma -- use any make-up or anything.

Q: And what was the transport like? You weren't transported by the lorry [indecipherable]

A: By the normal train, yes.

Q: In -- but it -- it was a normal train, so you were sitting in normal seats?

A: I think so, yeah. I can't remember -- as I can't remember that any more, but I -- there was nothing spe -- this was, I suppose, the trains as they were going for -- in Leipzig we changed and then we ended up in -- it was not Oster -- I thought they're in Osterberg. And there -- it was a place where the farmers came and ye -- every farmer asked for so many or so m -- I -- Thad no friends. I didn't know anybody on that transport, no -- and I joined the biggest group and there were 20.

Q: And so farmers, who -- was like [indecipherable]

A: The farmers came and us -- and used -- and asked for workers.

Q: Were you all Jews in this group of 20?

A: Yes, all Jews.

Q: And in -- in the rep -- the entire group --

A: Yes, the entire group.

Q: -- went -- were Jews?

A: We are all Jews. And then I started -- how it was, you can read in my letters.

Q: How did you start writing? I mean was -- were -- everyone was allowed to write letters, I gather?

A: Yes.

Q: There was no restrictions on that?

A: No restriction, no.

Q: And you got paid so you could purchase paper and pencil or p -- pen or did --

A: No, as a -- I suppose I had paper and pen with me as li -- as -- it was sometimes difficult later on to get paper and hav -- ha -- had sent paper, but I -- I -- it was literally for me to write letters.

Q: So you -- you think you brought this with you?

A: Hm?

Q: You think you brought paper with you?

A: I suppose so.

Q: Uh-huh, so you did have a little suitcase of some kind?

A: Oh yeah, I had a suitcase. Yes, I had a suitcase.

Q: Did you bring a camera?

A: I suppose so. I -- I can't remember, but we -- otherwise I wouldn't have had one. I -- a little box camera, I never had more.

Q: Yes. So was this frightening, to be in this farm, or di -- or did it --

A: No, was it -- I didn't expect anything good, but it has ta -- didn't think of it, specially, with the others. We had -- we waited what's coming.

Q: Now you had never done this kind of manual work?

A: No, no. This was very hard for me. And not only for me, other there -- youngst -- all young girls, lost the menstruation.

Q: And were -- did -- did people get afraid because they were losing their menstruation, the women -- wondering what was going to happen?

A: No. I ver -- I can't say that. This is -- actually I wrote to my mother that I have lost the menstruation and she went to a colleague of ours. They were -- he was at that time doctor in Roch hospital in Vane. And he said, "She will be -- I suppose she's got pregnant." He didn't know I -- my relationship. He said to my mother, "I suppose she's pregnant." Yes. And -- but it's a normal way he re -- he reacted and so, my mother was a bit --

Q: Upset?

A: Upset, yes.

Q: How was the food?

A: The food was -- we got six soups and sumcha. We -- we complained about the food. I know, because we wer -- we from Vienna were not used to that and we complained.

Q: And what was the result of the complaint?

A: No, it was no result at all. No result at all. We all wer -- ask for a par -- par -- for parcels from Vienna. We all --

Q: And so you were allowed to get parcels?

A: Yes, yes. And later on, when we worked there, I sent parcels too, to Vienna. I sent a lot of food to Vienna and -- it -- something was suppo -- was forbidden to send. Maybe pota -- I think potatoes or something. But in the Post Office, they told us how to declare it falsely. To -- yes, to -- in the post -- they did all know we are Jews and they -- they told us that is forbidden, we should write different declaration on the parcel, yes. This was -- and I never had the feeling of -- jus -- we went to the shops, was -- was forbidden in any ca -- and so at first, when we came there, the police came and told us what happened to us when we are violent. And so we -- we laughed about it. He mentioned young girls, we thought anything -- be were [indecipherable] and so the police had to -- such a thing, say -- had to say it. We laughed about it. And it was forbidden, we -- we got an -- an order na -- of what we had to do and what is allowed. I think it is in my letters. I stand up -- it -- and we laughed about it. We went out shopping and people sold us sweets. Not in all shops, but we had our shops. And they sold us sweets was -- which was on points.

End of Tape Two, Side A Beginning Tape Two, Side B

A: -- was forbidden to send. Maybe pota -- I think potatoes or something. But in the Post Office, they told us how to declare it falsely. To -- yes, to -- in the post -- they did all know we are Jews and they -- they told us that is forbidden, we should write different declaration on the parcel, yes.

This was -- and I never had the feeling of -- jus -- we went to the shops, was -- was forbidden in any ca -- and so at first, when we came there, the police came and told us what happened to us when we are violent. And so we -- we laughed about it. He mentioned young girls, we thought anything -- be were [indecipherable] and so the police had to -- such a thing, say -- had to say it.

We laughed about it. And it was forbidden, we -- we got an -- an order na -- of what we had to do and what is allowed. I think it is in my letters. I stand up -- it -- and we laughed about it. We went out shopping and people sold us sweets. Not in all shops, but we had our shops. And they sold us sweets was -- which was on points. We -- we didn't have any points, but f-for us it meant a lot, sweets helped. And they sold us and we went to the shops.

Q: So they not only knew you were Jewish, they knew you were from the labor camp?

[indecipherable]

A: Yeah, we know it -- we did know -- everybody did know where we -- who we are, yes. And We -- We Zi -- zitro -- sa -- you hadn't -- I never had the feeling -- there were some who would not want to have anything to do with Jews, but I didn't love a-all people and if they don't love me, I don't care. But we -- I never had the feeling that the people in the town are so terribly against us. Or th-th-they would do us something. I never had. For the people we were -- as it is in my letters -- a different society they had as workers. They wondered that we are saying bitte -- bitte and danke, so -- please and thank you, what they were not used to and we didn't steal from each other and all of these things. It was a revolution -- it was something new to that people -- what they ever expected from farm workers.

Q: And there was a Jewish population at Osterberg that you --

A: No, no.

Q: No, there was no --

A: No Jews, no.

Q: -- Jewish population.

A: No, no.

Q: When you -- do you recall when you decided to use your camera in the -- in the camp?

A: Yeah, I -- no, I didn't -- I didn't ask permission. I did it. I just --

Q: And did you do it openly, or did you hide?

A: I think -- I suppose I hi -- I didn't put it o-openly. I don't think so. And so I ta -- I can't remember that any more. But for me it was not to make a -- ev -- to send it to Peppy.

Q: So he should see where you were?

A: He should see where -- how it is, yes. It was not the feeling to make a historical note, but I wanted to send him to -- send it to Peppy. And I described very -- very solonly our work and what we have to do, because I wanted him to know. I wrote him before, that to him I will always only the truth, but not to mother, I said to him. To mother, I don't know if I said it before, I will al -- I said to him it is the truth, but to mother, I may not tell everything.

Q: Was he telling you the truth about what was happening in Vienna?

A: Yeah, wa -- he was -- as a -- leaving very, very restricted. He -- for him it was the danger that he will -- there were ratsius, as a -- the people were looking for deserters and h-he -- he was excluded from the army, as a Jew. He had this paper. But this t-told that he's a Jew and this he couldn't ha -- he couldn't have and he pretended to be working. So he went out only in the morning and came back as he -- he were coming back from work. And he was very -- as 0 -- he was very conscious that he -- about these things, that people shouldn't think he's running about without being in the army. And -- and he was living with his mother, his father was long dead.

He was forgi -- for -- he was for -- for-forgotten. And he hadn't any ration books, because he was a Jew and his mother kept him without ration books. And, as it happens, these peop -- the woman who had to deal with the ration books, didn't care. If she had cared, it would be dangerous. You always depended on people who didn't -- who were not too thoroughly in their jobs, as she -- she -- she distributed sic -- the ration books -- she -- the ration cards she got, but she didn't care if he

has any or not. He was living in the same house, but she didn't -- she was not possi -- aga -- doing something about it, but he never had any ration cards. His mother kept them. His mother went swoll -- swore -- s-swore din -- a -- an -- an oath, said she smokes. He was a heavy smoker and she -- only smokers got -- women only got -- got cigarettes who were -- who swore an -- an oath that they are smokers, because they wouldn't get other -- and she did it to get cigarettes for him. Yeah, she -- she went and swore that she is a smoker.

Q: Did men have to swear also, or wo --

A: No, I don't think so.

Q: So it's only women.

A: But women.

Q: Can you describe the -- some of the other prisoners and did you become friends with other women at Osterberg quickly or not?

A: I think it -- in -- in my letters, it comes out that this was -- we -- it was a normal relationship.

Some were better, some easier and -- but there were no prob -- no special problems.

Q: No. You -- what -- in one letter, you wrote -- this was the -- within, I guess it was at the end of May, after you'd been there a few weeks?

A: Yes.

Q: You said, "You've never seen such a clean town as ours. It may be clean, but it has no feelings." What are you -- what did you --

A: Osterberg -- it was a special north German town without any -- any special expression or -- it was very clean. It impressed me, north Germany, that it is very clean. Cleaner than Vienna is, of course. And so I was -- this was -- I wrote about it, of course.

Q: Did you mean that it had no feelings or it had no character, it wasn't interesting?

A: It was not interesting and not -- I was used to different -- to different religious. I haven't been out of Austria before and this was, for me, somewhere strange.

Q: Now, du-during this period, were you having some difficulties in your letters with Peppy, in terms of what he would -- whether he would really marry you or he wouldn't? Because at one point, you say you prayed --

A: No, it was so -- that people in the -- in the camp could go home when they got mor -- when they were married. This was the reason. And -- as 0 -- I found it is a marriage between us, I experienced it in pure formality. And when it can help me, we'll do it. If I could go to Vienna, maybe we could go to -- to Consibordo or something, it -- it would be a new -- a new possibility.

But he -- he didn't react. He -- he didn't want to do it. When he was sitting with his mother, and this hurt me very much, I must say, because I regarded it as a formality, not as -- as a sacrifice.

And this hurt me and -- this behavior, in that way, I -- was -- it wa -- made me dissad. I would not have married him any more, after I came back. If w -- if I had not met -- met Peppy, I would not have. When I met Werner -- when I met Werner, when I wrote him about him, then he wrote to me, as oh, I shouldn't do it and what would your mother say, and all these things what he didn't do before. H-He didn't worry what my mother said when -- if he's not marrying me and I would not have married him. This was my vengeance, in a way. I was good with him, but I would not have married him in any case.

Q: There is a letter that you write in August from Osterberg. Actually, there are two. One that you want to get Aryan identity and the other that you wanted to, in some way, withdraw from Judaism and Peppy, apparently, according to you, writes back and says, "Don't do that."

A: No, Aryan -- A-Aryan identity, I didn't want, but somewhere, because I -- I don't know -- I was in -- in -- at sometimes, I suppose very depressed and so I wrote in that way.

Q: Were you thinking also in some way that maybe you could pass?

A: No, no, no.

Q: No, you weren't -- you were just -- [indecipherable] to get [indecipherable]

A: Yeah, I wa -- I was depressed and maybe I just had time, I didn't want to have anything to do with it any more.

Q: And this is also after Peppy does not say --

A: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Q: So it may be part of the same?

A: Yes, yes.

Q: You also said in a letter, that you thought you should die young, that it would have been better to die young.

A: Mayess --

Q: Was that in a state of depression about your relationship?

A: Yes, it was, yes. Of course, you -- certainly I was very depressed [inaudible]. I-In that state and -- and the hopelessness, that -- that you cannot go away and all these things.

Q: So that must have been one of the worst times for you?

A: One of the worst, yes, of the [indecipherable] depressions.

Q: Did he understand that? Did he understand what had hap -- what would --

A: He was only -- he always kept a distance to me. He was in his place and he kept a distance.

Q: I think we should take a break now.

A: Yeah.

End of Tape Two, Side B

Beginning Tape Three, Side A

Q: Edith, be-before we move on to the next camp that you went to, I -- A-Asherslabin, I wanted to ask you about money and Austrians and the Jews and your views about what it was that the Austrians were really interested in when the Nazis took over.

A: I was inter -- they were interested in money, very much in money and they -- every -- in -- in Austria there were 200,000 Jews. Now is -- is 7,000. And 200,000 Jews had businesses and had - - e-even Crystal had -- Crystal -- her father bold the business for her in an elegant street, where sh -- where she -- they sold gloves and elegant things. And -- and there were so many shops, businesses and all the good -- the expensive -- bigger businesses, they got entroyhander, it was called. This was somebody who was put in for g -- for good wages -- for good wages. My -- a cousin of mine, who had -- they had a big business in Shtockerau, and when he came, he was buying of -- for his [indecipherable] things to go away. He said unkit things will pay [indecipherable]. He made the joke. And -- and they were -- everybody was better off in that way and many people could buy some things. People had -- we have to have -- have sold Persian carpet, we have sold things, because we -- we did need some money. And there were no place where wi -- to keep it. My mother put her fur -- she had a fur coat, a Persian fur coat and was the coat -- at that time, the Jewish uniform in Vienna. And she put it to a pawn broker, because she couldn't keep it at home. With a little money -- with a very, very little money. When I came back from the camp, I -- Peppy had -- had the -- the paper. I took the coat out and Mrs. Needelhile sold it for me. This was my money, because I didn't have any money. Didn't have a big aba -- bank account or something. And she's -- she sold it for me, very well. But people could buy at that time.

Q: Describe the circumstance with your mother needing a dentist.

A: Yeah, I -- my -- yeah, my mother needed a dentist and with protection, s -- and -- anda dentist, because there was no Jewish dentist, a Jew -- a dentist was prepared to treat her, when she pays in gold. And she had to give two necklaces, when he said how much it is worth [indecipherable]. Had two good presents for his wife, and -- I suppose.

Q: So he was willing to disobey --

A: He did --

Q: For [indecipherable]

A: Yeah, yeah, because he wasn't interested in her Jewishness, he was interested in her money.

He wanted to -- to -- to get the money. As a -- he had not a -- something it -- I may sa -- as a -- a feeling, a racial feeling or anything. This was not a hate, but there were no -- no Jewish dentists and when he treats a Jew, he had -- she had to pay with gold.

Q: Did you think in Osterberg that you would be leaving and going back to Vienna, to be with your mother?

A: 1-- I don -- my mother wasn't there and I didn't want to go back to Vienna. No, never.

Q: You didn't?

A: I could live easier in Germany than in Vienna, because I don't -- don't know how the Germans -- how the Viennese behave, but I didn't know anything about the Germans. And I would have stayed in Germany, because of my profession. And I've -- I felt appreciated and I f- felt -- had friends and I -- I would have stayed in Germany, I had -- and, but I never wanted to go back to Vienna. Actually, Bruno Kriseker wrote me once I should go and told me where to go and where to turn to, but this I couldn't slee -- I -- I didn't want to go back to Vienna.

Q: Didn't -- you're ta -- you're now talking about after the war, you didn't want to go back to Europe, right.

A: No, after the war, I didn't want to go

Q: But, I mean, when you were in Osterberg, you thought you were protecting your mother in some way?

A: Yeah, I -- I was suppose -- I -- I thought, as long as I am working, she is protected. It -- it did -- it happened that it didn't say -- it was so, at first they took all th-the one who had a Polish origin. They were ta -- and all the foreigners, they were taking at first and the Austrians were practically the last ones they took. And Minna came, because she was a Polish Jew, she -- she was taken before me. And -- and many who -- and the -- the girls who were still staying after me, they were usually half-Jews, many. But they all were taken, in the end. They were not -- there were quite a few ve -- half-Jews. They only had wa -- one part was only Jewish.

Q: So, your mother is still in Vienna, you're sent to Asherslabin in October --

A: On the -- on the 13th of October.

Q: In 1942.

A: And ears we were, as on the 24th of September, the Jewish star, the yellow star was introduced. And we were, at that time, only six girls in -- in Osterberg and we decided that this is impossible to wear such a thing, we couldn't go into the shops any more with a Jewish star. So we decided not to wear it and we didn't.

Q: So wait a minute. It's October 14th, 1941 [indecipherable]

A: Nineteen forty -- and -- and on the 24th of September, "41, it was introduced. We wrote -- we ha -- we got from the police the order to write to a Jewish community to send those to us. Iso -- we thought Vienna is further away, we will get it later on fo -- later from Vienna than from Berlin, so we wrote to Vienna. But they send it post wendit, at once we had the stars. And then we decided it is impossible to go with that to shop -- to a shop and we didn't wear it. And we --

we -- we just didn't -- ignored it and we wore it only on the 13th of October, when we had to go to Asherslabin, we had to wear it. But in -- in the meantime, this fortnight, we lived happily and shopped happily without the star.

Q: And you -- nobody was punished because they didn't wear it?

A: Nobody was punished and nobody was -- was talking about it.

Q: But you wore it when you went to Asherslabin?

A: Yeah, then we had to -- when we left, we had to wear it.

Q: And did you then wear it throughout the --

A: We had to wear it in the factory and we had to wear it. Once we went, as 0 -- we were allowed to go out on Sundays for two or three hours, I don't know any more, beese -- we had to have a paper, but we were to alot. And the Jewish families were very nice to us. They invited every week people -- some of us for tea and helped when you did need somebody -- something or so and they helped in every way they could. And once we were on the way to a ji -- Jewish family, four or five girls, I don't know any more and German boys came against -- came on the other direction and when they passed us, these German boys, they said, "Kriksdani." This means lucky stars.

Q: Lucky stars?

A: Lucky stars. But they didn't incite us or anything and I -- I thought, his rarewish should be, too, yes. I think if they had never safie, in-in this church family was a boy. Be-Before five, no child had to wear the stars. Up fi -- up to age of five -- after five, they had to wear the stars. And this boy was four years old, he didn't have to wear the stars. And he went through half of Asherslabin alone to playmate, to play there and they didn't wo-worry that something would happen to the Jewish boy. He went -- he -- he walks through Asherslabin when everybody would

know in -- in the district that he's a Jewish boy, but nobody was worried. I -- he wa -- he -- didn't happen, anything to him.

Q: And when you went to these Jewish homes, did you discuss the situation when in Germany and in jo -- what was going on in Poland, did they know anything?

A: No. No, I -- I don't think that we discussed. I can't remember that we discussed something.

The -- the Jewish family had then to go to Rushow, to the ghetto. I helped them packing and -- and -- but nobody did know at that time, I think, that it is really more asa death. Everybody hopes that it will be finished, the war and it -- nobody expected anything good. But I don't think that -- that we -- I didn't know and I don't think that they did know. Because they wrote still kait -- as I say, one of these woman wrote then that [indecipherable] husband in Rushow, they made [indecipherable] that he helped so much -- as -- they were in -- in Rushow. Actually, it was forbidden to -- as a -- it was allowed to send parcels to Poland, because there were so many German soldiers. Pound parcels, small ones, for presents. And from Vienna, when people were there, I wanted to send it, but when you -- you had to address it to the Judenrat, as a -- this was an -- when you went to a Post Office with a parcel -- ons -- twas a Judenrat, in Vienna they didn't take it. They didn't take the post -- Post Office -- so what did I do? I went to somebody who spoke Polish and ask Judenrat, what is Judenrat in Polish? And I wrote on the Judenrat in Polish on the ped -- on the parcel and then they took it and it arrived. Because we -- I got it -- I -- I -- I got to send it, it arrive, because in Vienna they took it, because they didn't understand it.

And I didn't go to the same Post Office again. I went always to different Post Offices and I sends, in this way, to the ghetto, some parcels which arrived.

Q: Now this is after you've left the camp?

A: This was before I left the camp, before.

Q: Right, before.

A: Before I left the camp, yes. Before I was in the camp at all, it was -- when the first one were taken to Poland, they were always a transport and then it was a quiet period and then it came again.

Q: Keeping you off guard.

A: Hm?

Q: Keeping you off guard [indecipherable]

A: Ye-yes, yes.

Q: You met Minna in Asherslabin [indecipherable]

A: In -- in ash -- no, in Osterberg.

Q: In Osterberg. So she was a very --

A: She was a very pretty blonde girl, she looked more Scandinavian than Jewish. And blue eyes and blonde hair and very pretty, very pretty girl.

Q: And she became a good friend of yours?

A: Yes, she was very proud to be Jewish. She was very, very -- she was from a Polish-Jewish family, she had a little brother and she was very proud to be Jewish.

Q: Now, did you live in the same room in Osterberg?

A: No, not --

Q: No?

A: No, we didn't live in the same room, only after they -- part of -- of them went back. Later on we lived in the same room, but not in the beginning. And I was not so good with her in the beginning because she belonged to another group.

Q: So did you become closer when you moved to the second camp?

A: Yes.

Q: How different was Asherslabin for you than Osterberg? I mean, what was the difference?

A: It was all so different. Asherslabin -- at first you could be cleaner in Asherslabin. You could - - there were plenty of -- of -- of opportunity to wash yours -- to -- to -- to wash yourself and in -- in Osterberg it was sometimes very difficult to -- after the work, to -- to -- to be clean. And in Asherslabin, there was even a radio, as a -- a German -- German radio. And it was more organized, because it was built for workers. It was more organized, because -- so it was in this way different.

Q: Were the regulations more harsh or not?

A: No, I -- I can't say that they were -- there were two girls who did the cooking with -- and we had -- s-so we -- we had to go to work and the food was -- oh, once -- at lunch time it was quite all right, but not in the evening, we didn't get anything. So we -- I have eaten bread which was three weeks old. You have to keep it in wet -- in -- in wet clothes -- in -- in dishclothes. Then you can eat it after three wee -- for three weeks.

Q: You mean, if you keep the bread wet?

A: Wet, yes.

Q: For that long, it will stay?

A: Yes, that -- it stays longer. We learned -- we learned such things. We had it and we could -- so -- there were more opportunity to wash your clothes and all this, because it was built for that.

Q: So it was built for workers to live there?

A: For workers to live there, yes.

Q: Was it built as a labor camp or was built as a factory?

A: I don't know, I suppose it was more for the factory.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Aft -- they had, I suppose, workers there before and after us. After us came Russians.

Q: Russian --

A: Actually, the manager went to Vienna, to the Gestapo, he wanted to keep us. He liked the -- the Jewish workers, but it -- there was no pity for them -- from them.

Q: You were reading in both Osterberg and in Asherslabin. How did you get books? Were books sent to you or were there books there?

A: Yeah, from Peppy, yes.

Q: From Peppy?

A: Peppy sent books.

Q: Did you then share these books with the other woman, or were there not so many woman there who was reading?

A: I don't think they were -- my particular taste was not the one they wanted, I suppose. I don't know.

Q: You had a very intellectual taste.

A: Yeah, na -- nay -- I was -- I always -- I liked literature very much and literature was my lifeline always, even now. I like it better than the television. I prefer books.

Q: So does -- so the books were very important to you in the camp?

A: Yes. They were very important.

Q: [indecipherable]

A: And always found time to read them.

Q: When did you mainly read, at night?

A: No, not -- I don't know. As a -- when -- on the weekend and when -- when I felt -- I -- I can't say that. [indecipherable] in the night I slept. No, no, was too tired.

Q: Did -- did you work six days a week or seven?

A: Hm?

Q: Did you work six days a week?

A: We worked seven days.

Q: Seven days?

A: Seven days. There was no weekend.

Q: There was no weekend?

A: No.

Q: You kept writing to Peppy?

A: Of course.

Q: In spite of this --

A: Yeah, of course. Even -- I wrote always to him, we were always in contact -- in loose contact, even when I was married. Werner became a friend of his. It's ridiculous, but he did.

Q: Let me stay in -- let's -- let's stay in Asherslabin for a little bit longer. You were taking English lessons?

A: Yes.

Q: Why? Why did you think of this?

A: Why? E-English was the freedom at that time. It was the way -- way out. I had no particular possibility to go to England or America, I didn't have that. But English was the way out.

Daniella, she was good in English and she gave me English lessons, the beginning.

Q: You also taught a class -- at least one class in ec -- was it economics or business?

A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they wanted to talk and I -- I'm -- I was talking about the difference between work, factory work and -- and homewor -- and other work, as a -- and yes, I liked it and so I liked it, too.

Q: How many women were there? Do you have any -- some idea of how many women you were working with?

A: H-How many women? We were about 100

Q: 100?

A: Yes.

Q: And so were you giving this class for everybody or a small --

A: Yeah, ever -- who wanted to come.

Q: Everybody?

A: And always came more and more. Yes, I -- I wa -- but you -- when you have in such a position, you have to find a way out. You have to find something to interest you, no? And so this is some way out, no? This is -- you can't always -- only thing on this terrible work -- this was.

Q: And you were teaching women of different classes. There were women who were --

A: Yeah, who -- who wanted to come and --

Q: [indecipherable]

A: Yes. Who wanted to come.

Q: Now, did -- did other women sing, or was there some informal entertainment that people were doing for each other or --

A: We ra -- we wrote -- we have read a play once.

Q: Written a play?

A: No.

Q: You were --

A: Read it. Peppy had to send the books. It was from Schiller and it was -- and when -- everybody tried to -- to find something. Others may have had different books, or something.

Q: What was your impression, since this was the first time you did factory work, that gave you a different impression about --

A: No I wa -- I was very -- it was very tiring and I had to stand, because I belonged to the u -- the youngest one -- I za -- I looked young. And so I -- I was pushed to the youngest and then I had to stand eight hours a day for -- at the factory -- at the machines. It wasn't easy and there were different work in the factory. But, it was -- when I was working, when I had Scarlet Fever, still --

Q: Well, we'll --

A: It's a very big factory.

Q: You spoke in one of your letters, about a Hanukah party.

A: Yeah, we --

Q: And that no one ha -- no one knew how to say the prayers?

A: Huh? No, no, no, no, we didn't. We were -- we were n-no religious Jews among us. In Austria, there were not -- I don't know, but there were no religious -- I think maybe they had the possibility to go earlier and -- and nobody didn't know what to say.

Q: So what did you do? You just sang another song?

A: No, we said, "Leibertot help us." This wa --

Q: [indecipherable] help us.

A: Yes.

Q: You -- you also spoke about a present. Minna gave you a birthday present with your -- with what you said was your favorite words on it. "Life is wonderful, it begins tomorrow."

A: No, this was -- this was -- a French prisoners said to me. This -- in -- in Osterberg already, and he said it is a -- a French proverb. Life -- I don't know, I think like, "La vie est belle, elle comment stamma." And la vie, this means, this -- that life is beautiful, it begins to -- it starts tomorrow. And this was -- fitted for us. This was -- a French prisoners told this to us. And then we heard it when I was in Asherslabin. We -- somebody wrote it on wood and we had it -- hang it up in -- in -- in the work room. And in the work room, the Nazis had written, "Veer capitoli ennee." We never surren-surrender. And I think we accepted that. We accepted that we don't surrender, yes. This was hanging there by the Nazis.

Q: You said that your period came back in Asherslabin.

A: Back, yes, in Asherslabin, yes.

Q: Also --

A: I didn't work pa -- so hard, capili -- not -- physically not so hard.

Q: Ah, so you think that's why and so with the other women?

A: I suppose. I suppose

Q: The other women, it came back as well?

A: Yes, yes.

Q: And did they provide you with anything for the -- your periods, or did you --

A: No, no -- I don't -- who -- who would think -- thought of --

Q: Th-They wouldn't care, right?

A: [indecipherable] providing us for anything. But [indecipherable] things, maybe the Je-Jewish family would help. Not -- and so, but this wa -- they were very, very nice to us.

Q: When you got Scarlet fever, they brought you to the infirmary?

A: No, no, no. We never Scarlet fever, they send me a sickart book, which kept me alive. I -- I -- about baroque germ -- a sickart book and I looked at -- at it every day, a few times and this kept me alive.

Q: Yeah. But you were in the infirmary for --

A: For relapsing, yes, in an -- y -- but the nurses were not allowed to speak to us, no. We couldn't -- they came in and brought us maybe some food and out again. I was with another girl there -- with Anneliese Cohen and I was with her -- with her there. And we entered -- we spoke French to each other, yes, to keep up. So you always do something to keep up life. We decided to speak French.

Q: Now, you were in quarantine, so no one could come visit you?

A: No, no, no, no nobody could come to visit us.

Q: Was -- were there a lot of women who got Scarlet fever?

A: There were a few. I don't know exactly how many, but of course. I mean, the bacillus goes round. And we were then sent back to the camp and in the -- and the others were then vaccinated against Scarlet fever. But it was a good rest, this Scarlet fever for me.

Q: Yes, I understand that Peppy thought this was a good thing, that this was a vacation for you?

A: Yeah. Yeah, I was very cross, very cross at the beginning. At the beginning I was very cross, that he thought it's a good thing I get Scarlet fever.

Q: No, while he was able to save your letters, because he was in a different circumstance, you were not able to save --

A: I didn't want to save his letters.

Q: You didn't want to.

A: I didn't want. At first -- at first -- as soon as I got a letter, I -- and have read it, I destroyed it. I got letters from Crystal, too and -- but would be only a prufeck for the -- one or the other thing.

No, I -- I didn't want to keep any letters and I destroyed every letter as soon as I got it.

Q: But let me ask you something. You were afraid of censorship?

A: Yeah.

Q: Yes? Because they -- they opened letters. Did they --

A: I don't --

Q: You know --

A: 1-- I don't think -- as a -- I -- I -- I didn't write in the hopes that nobody will write somethings. I didn't write about the Nazis and I didn't write things which -- I -- I was thinking of it, when I wrote I was thinking of censorship.

Q: Were there code words that you used sometimes?

A: Codewords? It's difficult to say. Maybe in the beginning, when -- when I'll ask for cigarettes.

I never have smoked a cigarette in my life, but it was meant for the French. I wouldn't write, "This is for the French prisoner." But this was understood. Peppy did know I'd -- I'm not smoking. And many of these things. Men once, to tell you about the -- there were girls in another camp and they went home and they had contact with the French prisoners, more contact, because the camp of the French prisoners was near. And when they got home, they send me a parcel with men's underwear, for the French prisoners. I suppose they were complaining that they didn't have underwear to change or something. Now, I should give it to the prisoners. How can -- can I go and give a French prisoner a present? What to do? But for me it was a holy duty to do what -- what is asked for me. So one night -- this was in Osterberg, one night I went out by the window with this parcel. In the parcel was no letter or anything, was only pure underwear. I thought this

was such a -- a parcel with pants or what -- what -- for the -- for the men. And I went out by the window and went on the -- in the field and put the -- the parcel down, because I could speak to the French in French and tell them to go and collect it. But I must have been seen. When I told them, the parcel was stolen, they didn't get it. So I -- somebody mu -- but I was not denounced for it. Somebody must have seen me and it wasn't -- it didn't come to the Gestapo. So, the parcel, but they didn't get the underwear. I am so sorry. But I -- it was a very exciting outing for me. You can imagine in the -- in the night of -- to go out in the field. But this was a -- a duty I had to do.

Q: Were you upset when Minna left?

A: Pardon?

Q: When Minna left?

A: Yeah, no -- of course I was upset.

Q: It must have been difficult.

A: Yes.

Q: And you kept hearing from her, up to a certain point?

A: Yeah, I have heard a little bit of hers.

Q: Cause her letters, at least from the way in which you wrote about them, seem very depressed.

A: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Q: You were not sure what was going on in Poland, or did you become more sure [indecipherable]

A: No, I didn't know. I didn't know anything, no. An-And didn't expect anything good.

Q: No way.

A: Das a anything good. I -- I thought it will be worse than our position in -- in -- in the camp, but what was going on, I didn't know and I don't think that anybody know.

Q: It -- there are two different letters, where your mother seems to be seeing one person named Weiss, a man and then Housner, who's [indecipherable]

A: Housner, as a he -- she -- she had met somebody in that time, I didn't know -- I -- I've never met him and she ha-had -- she was only 40 -- end of -- end of 40 and she had some-somebody who was caring for her.

Q: So that was good, that she wasn't alone?

A: Yes, yes.

Q: At that -- at that point.

A: Yes.

Q: What were you writing to your mother? Were you just writing very simple letters about what was happening?

A: I didn't -- I didn't write about anything bad. So it didn't make he-her worry. I didn't -- I -- I didn't do that. Usually I wrote what I have sent her and once I have sent her apples and she send it back as apple strudel. Said -- she said, with an apfel strudel -- this is what I wrote to her, she shouldn't send it back. But she -- she made apfel strudel, send it back to me.

Q: And you wanted her to eat it?

A: Huh?

Q: And you wanted her to eat the [indecipherable]

A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And -- and I have sent in many, many parcels to her and to Remus. Many, many parcels of food.

Q: You could have left for a few days to go to Vienna, had you been married, but you couldn't leave as a single woman to go visit your mother?

A: No, no. Yeah. This what made me very, very cross. Because I would have done it, if I could help somebody in a -- in such a way. I would have done it. But he had an -- an iron bar, behind this I was not allowed. And this was his mother. And he was a very -- as a -- he liked comfort and he liked to be -- he -- he didn't work and he liked the comfortable life. To read and to eat and mother's looking after him and so.

Q: So it made it doubly hard for you?

A: Huh?

Q: It made it doubly hard for you?

A: No, it didn't. It -- it -- it -- I felt that h-his obligation to me is not the same than my obligation to him. This I felt in that way. And this made me decide not to marry him. Even when I could go ba -- when -- after the war, I would not have married him.

Q: What were you thinking about when you knew that parents and children were sent together, that your mother wo -- presumably would be in Vienna, until --

A: Yeah. I -- ine come -- yeah, no, but I think amin -- I could help her.

Q: If you would be together?

A: Ina camp or anywhere, yes. I wanted to go with her.

Q: So you assumed -- w-why were you allowed to go to Vienna in June? Why was that --

A: I was -- this was -- the Gestapo ask for me to come, because my mother was supported and -- and I was -- this was normal, this was normal.

Q: So it was your turn?

A: Yes, it was my turn.

Q: Now, when you left Asherslabin --

A: Yeah.

Q: You took your -- you ripped your star off your coat?

A: Yeah. Yes.

Q: That was very dangerous to do.

A: Yeah, it was -- what was not dangerous in that -- this -- in -- in that time? Everything was dangerous. I was -- we were six, about, I think, who left. And we decided not to know each other. Only two -- nit -- in -- in groups. Because six a-attract attention and we traveled in twos and not in the same carriage, in very different carriages. We agreed about it, we planned it in that way. And I -- I talk -- and we took off and I thought the star was only fixed in a way that you could riff -- rip it off at once. At first I put my -- my handbag on top, because we -- as a -- at once I had my handbag on -- on top of it. This is -- was -- is folded. And then -- as soon -- we -- we took them off.

Q: So all of you took them off, also?

A: Yeah, all the others. I think so. Nobody traveled with this impossible star and but we made it sure that we do not know each other and that we do not aerate any attention -- attract any attention to us.

Q: So where -- where did you pull it off? Were you -- di-did you --

A: On the toilet. I went to the toilet.

Q: [indecipherable] y-you went alone?

A: Yeah, I went to the toilet and put it off. It was only on the coat, not on the -- it was all prepared to be sewed off -- of putting it off igitta -- ripping it off again.

Q: And the six of you, when you thought of this, when you sat to -- you -- you talked about this in Asherslabin, I gather?

A: Yes.

Q: Yes. Before you left. And the idea of pulling it off was what? Why -- you just thought it would be --

A: No, as a -- who wants to go out with -- with -- with such a style on. Of course we -- this wa -- it was natural.

Q: And the clothes you were wearing, were these the clothes that you had brought originally, or -

A: No, we couldn't buy any clothes there, but I have bood -- yes, what I had.

Q: So, you go to Vienna and you discover what?

A: In Vienna, Peppy and his mother, of course. His mother didn't let him be with me on -- alone.

His mother came to collect me and they were very glad I came without the star.

Q: This is at the train station?

A: Yeah, at the -- at the train station, yeah. And then I was staying with my cousin. I had a cousin in Vienna. She had been married to a Gentile, a Czech -- a Czech it was. And he was a soldier and fell in the war. He was dead, already. And he fell in Russia, on the Russian front.

And the -- 1940, a son was born to them and this son, because she married after 1936, was regarded as Jew. And his father had given his life for Germany, but he didn't get any normal rations. He got only Jewish car -- Jewish cards. Then, when I had my daughter then, later on, I -- my daughter got normal cards, because sh -- they thought she's an Aryan. And she got three- quarters of a liter milk. And the cards were n-nationally. I send -- I got two cards, one card for

half a liter and one card for a quarter of a liter. And they -- ga -- ga -- the liter, the quarter of a liter went to Vienna for little Otto. That this -- this boy got -- get some milk too. And --

Q: So you stayed with her?

A: I stayed with her a few days and -- but she -- she wrote me, she invited me to stay with her when I come. But she expected after a few days, I'm going to Poland. Yes, n-not that I'm staying with her for longer. Dangerous person what I am. And -- and she -- she -- when I was there, she was already -- atha -- I was staying -- overstaying my invi -- invitation already. Overstaying. And she made -- made it clear to me that she doesn't want me too long -- that she doesn't want me any more. She made it clear to me. And then I had to find some -- another place where to stay.

This wasn't easy and I me -- once I met -- he was a Jew, a -- a -- a brother of Mr. Rumer, Onkefelas we called him and he took me -- he was a Jew, but h-he could live -- he had a flat in what they called Himindaball -- in the community, from -- what belongs to -- to the community.

And he was -- had told them he had to bring the Aryan now -- asa -- the -- the proof that he's an Aryan, what he didn't -- was -- he wasn't and he didn't have any proo -- proof and he told them that his documents are at the moment in South Africa in the hands of her sister, because he is emigrating to there and he hasn't the documents. And this was again, this man does -- didn't care much. And so he was staying in that flat. And he took me -- but an -- an old man could not easily take a la -- young girl into his house. I stayed the night with him -- he may have take -- kept me in another night or something, but an old man cannot keep a young girl in his flat, this is clear.

Somebody would notice that there is a -- a young girl going out and in. This was -- was -- as a -- one, but in-interesting is when I was there, going round in Vienna, I met one -- he was a bit younger than I was, from the socialist middulshunabrunt. He was actually the opeman at that time. His name was Cootberger. And he had an idea. He wrote -- he said he is not a Jew, he was

exchanged in the nursing home. It was in a -- a -- a difficult -- he was taken for a Jew, but this was not -- are not his parents. His parents were others. And he made an application to Berlin, to some office and the Nazis took that seriously. Can you imagine? That this was the Nazi time.

They took it seriously. And he was going around in Vienna because he's appi -- his application was still in Berlin. But, for a long time -- but in the end, as a -- I don't know -- he disappeared as well. But from -- for months or years or something, I don't know exactly how long it was, he was going around and telling, as a -- because his application that he is exchanged in the nursing home. But how silly, how silly. But they -- this is -- is bureaucracy, German bureaucracy. I laughed -- we laughed about it -- I laughed about it.

Q: Edith, who was -- if I can go back for a moment, what was the name of your cousin?

A: Ju-Julia Andre. She's still live -- alive. She's living in Vienna, still.

Q: Now, I -- I -- I know the answer to this question in a way, but I'm going to ask it anyway.

Peppy and his mother did not offer [indecipherable]

A: No, no -- I have never -- never slept a night in -- in her flat. But he -- Peppy must have had a - - a pressure on her, because I wasn't sleeping in that flat -- in the house of the -- of other people, where she has the key to. And she had the key to a flat and I suppose -- I suppose Peppy must have had a pressure -- pressure on her, because she drewls quite the time until she off -- until I had that possibility. And I -- I slept in that house -- in that flat.

Q: So, was that after you left that older man, that you slept --

A: Yes, yes, yes. I was going around, I was asking other people and I had -- I've heard no -- I have I'm sorry, I'm very sorry, but I -- there was no room for me. It was a ha -- terrible time. Can you imagine going around -- and in -- in daytime, I was not staying in -- in Peppy's flat. I was in the street. I couldn't go to Crystal because this was in the same house where I have been living,

but when I rang her, and said I need something, we met in coff -- in Kuffy's and they always came at once. Always. She and Elsa. They al -- this was -- I could trust them and could hopes them.

Q: Now Elsa's the sister?

A: Elsa is her youngest sist -- she's still alive.

Q: Crystal is still alive?

A: Crys-Crystal, no.

Q: No. But the other --

A: Crystal died.

Q: But Elsa is --

A: Elsa is alive, yes.

Q: This is Crystal Denner?

A: Crystal Denner, Crys -- Christina Maria Marguerita Denner was her name.

Q: Then Crystal was the sort of nickname?

A: Yes, when I met her, she was called Teeny, but this was then changed to Crystal. This seemed to be more grown up.

Q: Edith, when did you find out -- as soon as you arrived in -- in Vienna, did you re -- y-you knew that your mother was already deported?

A: Yeah. I did know it, I think I did know it already before I came. I don't know, exactly. But I -- I -- I found -- she was gone. Because she wanted me -- she wrote me a card that they have to go and she was -- she wrote a card and she wrote -- she tried to -- she had courage, she wrote and she ask again for me. And these SS mens ask her how old I am and she said 28 and he said, she

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can go on her own. She saved my life. Otherwise I would have gone with her on -- with her, of course.

Q: One of the other women that you [indecipherable] start to say something.

A: Pardon?

End of Tape Three, Side A Beginning Tape Three, Side B

A: -- can go on her own. She saved my life. Otherwise I would have gone with her on -- with her, of course.

Q: One of the other women that you [indecipherable] start to say something.

A: Pardon?

Q: You were starting to say something?

A: But I --

Q: I said, you were going to start to say something, I don't want to interrupt you.

A: I didn't --

Q: Ah. One of the women that you came with to Vienna --

A: Yes.

Q: -- who also took off her star --

A: Yes.

Q: -- got very frightened of the circumstances --

A: Yes.

Q: -- and decided to go to collection center.

A: Yes.

Q: Yes?

A: Yes. In the end I would have to go, too, when they could not -- vay -- if -- if I had not found -- if all that -- not that SS man has given me this advice.

Q: You would have had to go, too.

A: I couldn't -- you -- you -- I could not -- for years, live -- live in that way.

Q: So for how long were you living in that apartment that Peppy's mother had the key to?

A: This was -- itho this -- I went to Mun-Munich at the beginning of August, I don't know the date, the fifth or sixth of August and this was -- I went -- I came to Vienna in -- at -- at the end of June. At first Mrs. Needelhile sent me -- I must have looked awful, for a rest to a farmer she was in contact with. For if -- he didn't know that I'm Jewish. I don't know what she told him, I should come there to have a -- when I came there and got a -- a normal meal, I was at once ill. I couldn't stand a normal meal any more. But this was a real Nazi, 100 percent Nazi, they didn't know anything about me and I was so terribly shocked about the opinion and about the life they had that I was glad to be underground again -- and -- and go -- and -- and left -- when I left them, it was a few days. And I was thankful not to be there any more, in spite of the food and everything, because th-this was the first time and the only time I was in really Nazi environment.

H-He was leader of the farmers and -- ma -- na -- they treated me well and I had the room and I went out with him on -- and -- to -- but i-it was mentally horrible. I couldn't -- I -- it was horrible, it was -- the only one thing to -- i-it was sh -- I was shocked. I was glad to be -- to be away again. And then I went back to Vienna and -- and I was apelsush -- my cousin said -- in the house, I am a relation of her dead husband" So that this is not -- that nobody is -- as a -- in -- that I will not be denounced or anything. And I -- I felt more happier in my own cou -- Jews and among people who were underground or something than with -- with these Nazis, this was horrible.

Q: How did you get to Marie Aneederall?

A: Hm?

Q: How --

A: To be --

Q: She was --

A: 1 -- I went there to ask if she had news from me -- Minna.

Q: She's -- she was Minna's aunt?

A: No, she was not that, she was her employee.

Q: Ah.

A: Minna -- she took over a Jewish -- a Jewish shop. This was all -- a Jewish shop. And there were two Jewish employees. And -- Minna and Mrs. Grunwald a-and she was older than Minna, she was in the 30's and she wanted at first the Jews out, but she got so attached to them, that she helped them. She sont -- sent a lot of parcels to Osterberg and everywhere.

Q: So --

A: And I went there, naturally and Minna must have written very nice letters about me, though that she was so friendly to me and -- and asked me to come again. She wanted to keep Minna -- to save Minna. But Minna went with her parents. Minna, of course -- I mean, these were her parents and she could not stand that her parents are transported and she's in Vienna fo -- hidden.

And so I went to ask her. And she was very friendly to me.

Q: And then, after this farmer, you went back to Vienna?

A: I went back to Vienna, dood -- I don't know exactly where I slept any more in the night when I came back. I don't know if I slept with my -- in my cousin's house or something, but i-it -- it is horrible when you get up in the morning and have to think where will I sleep in the evening. Can

you imagine? This went on for weeks, no? And -- and this was -- and -- and in daytime, when you don't have anywhere to go, you have -- I went to the pictures. I went -- I -- I was in the streets.

Q: And you had money because Maria had sold your mother's --

A: Hess -- hess -- yes. She sold my fur -- this was --

Q: Now, I think I'm -- I think I'm a little confused. Maria lived in Vienna or in Munich? Maria Needelhile.

A: No, in -- in Vienna. She had in -- in [indecipherable] four was her shop and -- and she was there. Her husband was a lawyer and he -- I have met him sometimes, but she said me once -- her husband said, had -- had said to her, what she does is very dangerous. And she said, then you have to get a divorce.

Q: So she was a very good person.

A: She was a very good person, yes.

Q: Now, is she the one who suggested that you call Johann Platner?

A: Yes.

Q: Yes.

A: She was. It was a friend of hers -- of -- a-apparently.

Q: So that took a little while, before she told you about him.

A: Yes, it was not the first time when I came. I came a few times, b-because she was friendly.

She gave me a ration -- marks to -- I got some food from this girl who had sent me this parcel for the -- for the French prisoners. I visited her, too. Liesel Bruct was her name and -- and she was em-employed in a Jewish shop, where the Jews got -- got their rations. And she gave me haircuts

and she lived with other rations. Because she was employed in that shop, so she could manage.

And f-from the rations what she got, she gave to me.

Q: So there were a lot of --

A: Yes, a lot of --

Q: [indecipherable] works.

A: Yes, a lot of --

Q: That you helped and that other people helped you.

A: Yes, I'm -- yes, I had helped people and they helped me, too. Th -- a ki -- a kind of camarache of the kind of -- secure it in this way.

Q: When Maria told you she was going to call this person, Johann Platner --

A: Yeah.

Q: Did she tell you that she w -- that he was a Nazi?

A: No, no.

Q: No?

A: She didn't -- no, she didn't tell me that she's ringing somebody. She -- she didn't -- only after he said yes, she said, "Go there and tell him the truth."

Q: And she didn't warn you what you were going to fa --

A: No, no, no, no, no, she -- I went there and -- but I -- I trusted her 100 percent and when tha -- did -- made -- mean anything to me.

Q: So when you walked in and you saw -- and -- an SR officer --

A: Anything. Yeah. I didn't -- I -- it didn't mean anything.

Q: Anything?

A: No, because I trusted her 100 percent.

Q: And so you told him what?

A: I told him the truth. What it -- what it was and -- and he said, "You are lucky, because I am still here. I am going tomorrow to North Africa." He was in -- he said -- and he told me -- this -- this was not a long interview. He told me exactly what is necessary to survive. It wasn't a long -- I said, "Thank you." I didn't think of money and he didn't ask any money. I couldn't have paid for that. He mentioned what -- what it was worth for me. I couldn't have paid for that. I didn't -- didn't talk about money. It wasn't --

Q: Can you tell us what it -- I mean I know you wrote about it in the letter, can you tell us something of what he said to you, how you ought to protect yourself?

A: Yeah, he said he ma -- he must and a friend of mine -- when you went to a -- a holiday, it was August, you go -- you got a document that you get food, and the place where to go to. This was not -- this document was meant only for a short period, as a -- for this few -- four or six weeks you were away. And he told me that my friend should get such a document and should go -- should tell the police that she has lost it, that her hus -- her bag with the document fell into the water -- in the [indecipherable]. She was -- and from the boat. And he warned me even, that she ha -- she should not say it was torn, the documents, by a dog or anything, because the police could ask for -- for proof. And -- and then he told me that I -- how to get a document with a -- with a lik -- with a photo. And then he told me I should never ask for a -- for points for dresses, klidakartae -- for -- it was called klidakartae. I should never ask for that. This he told me too, because this is in -- is for the rye -- for the -- for the whole country. And I should never ask for identity card. He told me too. As a identity card, what -- what was called kenung's card at that time and then he -- this is -- he -- he told me -- he looked me up, he said -- as a -- I am -- lam

looking well. He -- he -- also said -- and he wished me good luck and then I went. I said, "Thank you," and went. And he said of course I have to loo -- to -- to go away from Vienna.

Q: He's -- he's recognized at Yad Vashem, Platner?

A: Yes, yeah. And this happened -- I didn't know about these things, how did I know [indecipherable]. I -- I went to the library in Edgeware and found the book -- fell in the book -- a love story in my hand, "Max and Helen," by Simon Wiesenthal. And I took it only because it was Simon Wiesenthal because love stories are -- is not my usual line of books what I am reading. And I read it and he wrote in that -- right in that -- he -- he describes the -- how this couple came in contact with -- with la -- with camps and survive and he wrote, "We should not forget these people who helped us." And then I was thinking of -- of Crystal and I copied the sentence he has written in my letter to him, I wrote to -- to -- I didn't know his direct address, I wrote to Vienna and I wrote -- I -- I sent -- I wrote the sentence in the -- in -- in -- in the letter and I wrote that Crystal Denner helped me. But I didn't write a long stories. And he answered me at once. He wrote to me, "I just came back from -- from America and found your letter" and he answered me at once and said he must know more. He is contact with Israeli -- with -- with Yad Vashem and with the documents entering Israel and I must tell him more, so I told him more and he had -- took up contact with Crystal. Crystal had an interview with him and then it was arranged -- he arranged it, I had nothing done any more and then the Israeli embassy made a celebration in -- in Vienna. There were about 200 people or something. And there was another woman -- another woman who had saved somebody and she and this other woman got medals.

Q: So Crystal -- Christine Denner got a medal?

A: Yes, she got a medal and I -- I -- a very nice medal in all leaf -- i-in -- a very nice medal and then I got one Yad Vashem [indecipherable] knew that she is -- that they're happy to tell me that she ca -- is choo -- chosen to be -- have a -- a tree in Yad Vashem.

Q: But not Platner?

A: Huh?

Q: Not Platner?

A: No, I didn't talk about Platner at all. I didn't -- I thought this -- I didn't know anything, I haven't ha -- seen or helped him. I was talking -- actually Crystal did -- did sadate and it was her.

Sh -- The others could say I have given her an advice or something, I can't remember or this is not true or something. But she went and gave the -- went to the police and gave the wrong aclare -- declaration on us. That she has to de -- and this declaration, what -- what happened that the police says is here, in the documents.

Q: Well, we have to take a break now.

A: Yeah.

Q: Did we go over?

End of Tape Three, Side B

Beginning Tape Four, Side A

Q: Edith, can you talk a little bit more about Christine or Crystal Denner, because I know that after you leave Platner, she's going to help you a great deal. Tell us a little bit about her.

A: Oh gee. Her -- her father wanted to marry her and brought German officers into the house.

When -- when -- when there was somebody for dinner, I was always invited at the dinner, too.

But she didn't want -- didn't want anybody. She had -- when she was 15 and sh-she met a -- a young man, he was a half-Jew and she's -- was later on her husband. I was at the -- I was with her when she met him and no other -- no other boy or man or -- was -- had any hope. She was quarreling with him and not quarreling and going out with him and not going out with him and I -- | -- I was always with -- with her in that thing and later on, after the war, sh-she -- she married him. He was -- his father was a Jew from Czechoslovakia, but he was married to a non-Jew.

They had a house in Vienna and they had a business of -- of things -- pipes and such things. And they had a car, they were well off people and had a house and he'd think they were well off people. And his father -- I think it was Crystal's father who did it, but that didn't -- he pretended that he is not a Jew and Crystal's father, I think he was in Czechoslovakia and ra -- and t-tore out the book in -- out of the books what he pretended, so that he pretended that he's not a Jew. But he was found out. And there was a trial and he was sentenced to prison and was sent to a prison in -- in Vienna -- ou-outside Vienna, to a prison. This is why he survived. Because, as a Jew he would be murdered, but as a prisoner, he survived. This -- the parents were divorced, but more or less only because to keep the house. They kept in touch. He was then living in -- in -- ina different district, but they kept in touch. And after the war -- and -- and -- when it came out, Hans Baron was his name, Baerchi he was called at school, he -- he was sent back from the army -- he was in the army and as his father was then a Jew, so he was sent from -- and he was not in

the army and he was denounced once, because he was walk -- walking about -- that he's a deserter. [indecipherable]. Somebody -- he was missing, I think Crystal and so forth, but he was in -- before the end of the war, he was denounce, but he was legally out of the army, so it didn't matter. But this is the danger that he was -- he was denounced by somebody in -- in the district and after the war they got married this -- and had a son.

Q: And Crystal was never a Nazi?

A: No. She was never a Nazi, no.

Q: Talk about her being in the -- the women's organization, the girl's organization --

A: Oh, she was in -- I -- I thought this was automatically in the bundeutshameet and in the Nazi time, not only that -- because when the Nazi came, these two girls were living on their own, their father was somewhere in -- in the army, they got a -- from -- from the court. Somebody shu -- a - - a guardian, that they were mi -- minors and were living on their own, they got mine -- a guardian. And this guardian, this Nazi guardian came and at once she fell on the polished floor and fell down and it was su-such an unhappy meeting, that she didn't come any more. She was out of -- of the -- she -- she fell down and asuz -- this was no chemistry between them. The guardian didn't -- didn't appear any more, she was gone. And she -- she was in the bunter- buntdeutshamashin and didn't fit in -- didn't want to fit in, either. And was then thrown out by a registered letter, that she's not allowed to wear the uniform, which she didn't want to do in any case and we had a good laugh about such things -- about such things, we have -- really we -- we - - it was our entertainment. And then she was -- all young people were sent to work, the girls, to families which have many children, this was it. She was sent somewhere, I don't know where it was and was -- when she went, because she was at that age, that this was like drafting and she was at that age, she was this -- had decided to come back and not to stay, before. And she had --

she -- they were not allowed to have money, but she had hidden the money for the fare back -- at once and in this c-camp, she had purposely a fall, that she could go to the doctor and the doctor sent her then home. She pur -- as a -- she planted.

Q: So, when you left Platner, what did you do? Did you go very quickly to [indecipherable]

A: I -- I wa -- I met Peppy with them and Peppy was with me when I told her and she didn't hesitate a minute. She didn't he -- sh-she -- th-they -- they always -- even when I was in the camp before, when I did need something, maybe a pair of shoes, ma -- you couldn't buy anything, whatever they could, they send me. And my mother could turn to them, that I need something and they -- I always had letters, I always was in contact with her and she -- when -- and now, when I came back, I -- I couldn't go to her flight. I went into the shop, in the camp ashlasser and -- and -- but not to have -- to have flight, because of -- when we have li -- been living 20 years in the same house, it was too dangerous. But she -- when I say, come to that coffee house, she would come at once. She -- they would leave everything and we have met.

Q: And so, what did she agree to do?

A: Hm?

Q: What did she -- what -- what did Crystal do?

A: Once, I wanted to go to a swimming -- swimming. So I ask Crystal f-for a swimming -- a swimming costume. I got it at once. I mean this was -- this was -- I -- whatever they could, they did.

Q: So, when you came and told her what Platner had said --

A: Yes.

Q: Crystal then immediately gave you her papers?

A: Yes. She -- yeah, no, she had to go -- th-they wanted, in any case, to go on holiday to Minsta, where her father was in the flak and Elsa especially said as I should go with them. I should go with them to -- but I couldn't -- Jews were -- were not allowed to travel on the -- on -- on the -- on the railway. I couldn't go with them and so -- and -- and then, because she said -- h-her father said there's more to eat and I should go with them, but I couldn't go and she had, in any case, I don't know if she had it already, this paper, for the holiday, but the holiday was planned and -- or if she just get it and she gave me the paper and said -- and went to the police. Very easily -- she was very -- when she did grow up in that district, she was not a stranger who comes from anywhere and the police -- she was -- police believed her and she ga -- she got replicas.

Q: So she was the one who said I lost my --

A: Yes.

Q: -- in the water and I --

A: Yes, she told the story and -- and it was of course believed. Min -- she grew up in that district and it is very plausible that her handbag had fall into the weet -- into the water on the Altadona.

Q: Edith, what papers did you have? You were not wearing a star?

A: No.

Q: But you said -- I understand the Jews could not travel on the trains.

A: No.

Q: Right? But how were you identified? People knew who you were? I mean --

A: No, I was -- who should ent -- identify me?

Q: Well, that's what I mean. Why couldn't you travel on the train? Is it --

A: No -- Jews were not allowed to travel on the train.

Q: But you didn't have papers that said you were Jewish. Or did you?

A: No, but I -- I -- could be -- there could be rats here -- I could be found out. There were not -- ma-maybe in -- in one of the letters of my mother, she writes they went -- th-they walked to the cemetery, to my father's grave. This was very, very far away. This was about two hours walk.

But, I suppose she could not travel with a star on that -- on that train. Sh-She didn't write, of course. I don't -- I couldn't -- but she wrote, she -- she -- she was walking to the cemetery and this was very -- is in Vienna very, very far away. When you g-go an hour by train. And sh -- because she -- I suppose she couldn't -- I don't know. She could not travel by -- she wore that star, she could not travel by train to the cemetery.

Q: Okay. So, Crystal gets these duplicate coupons.

A: Yes.

Q: Yes? And so you get them.

A: I get -- I get the original.

Q: The original. All right, now what happens?

A: Not the duplicate.

Q: Right.

A: She had the duplicate.

Q: Now what happens?

A: No th -- [had -- I had to go -- I had to leave.

Q: And you decided to go where?

A: I wa -- I decided to go to Munich, because I had seen a newsreel about the -- about the -- about Munich. About the house, the deutshenkuntz. About an art exhibition in Munich. That was intere -- and -- and it is and it looks ridiculous when I say it, but this afiga in this art exhibition

touched me so much, as is would speaking to me, as it would tell me to go. And so I decided to seize it, that -- things -- to go to Munich.

Q: What was the -- what was the piece of art that spoke to you?

A: It was -- it -- it was a -- a white -- white marmore --

Q: Marble?

A: Yes, a marble. It was a -- a li -- a -- a woman and a woman lying, but i-it expressed peace so much -- what I missed so much. It is worth so much what I missed that I wanted to see it. And so I went to Munich and in Munich I had to live somewhere, no? And then I bought the mune- munestalaraisinzae only. Never before and never afterwards I bought that paper and I looked a- among -- among the rooms to let and there was one room to let -- not in Munich, outside Munich, in Disenhofen, for sewing. For wor -- for -- not for money, but for doing some sewing.

Q: In exchange for the room?

A: In exchange. And this fitted me because I didn't have much money, I didn't know how long I have to live wi -- on the fur coat of my mother and -- and this fitted me very well and I think I wrote a card with -- like that -- to that place, but then I went there, to -- I went -- I traveled back by night and didn't know where to sleep in I -- in any case, I traveled by night and in the morning, I traveled to Disenhofen and it was after lunch I arrived and I suppose this was my first day with the wrong papers and with all that and -- and overtired as I was, I must have looked awful. And I had a small suitcase and this woman, when I ope -- when they opened the door, and I told her who I am, she put me to bed. She didn't ask much questions. Sh-sh-she's said I shoulds lie down and in -- and I slept and I got coffee and cake into the bed and [indecipherable] is meant in my position. I would have worked for -- day and night for her. And then we agreed I work three nights -- three days. And I made her -- and -- I kno -- did know soon her -- her stories, her

life stories. I told her that my father, oh, is a widower. My mother died. Had married a woman not much older than I am and I couldn't get on -- on with her and so I have decided to leave Vienna, this wa --

Q: How -- how did you come up with that story?

A: Is very plausible.

Q: It's very plausible.

A: Huh?

Q: Yes, ob-obviously.

A: And it is very plausible, so I -- I -- her mother -- Crystal's mother was dead, this was true, but I had to have a reason why I leave Vienna and people didn't ask me much. Everyone believed it and it was very plausible and people were very tactful, they didn't ask me more questions. And I did know her st -- her life story soon. She was a nurse in -- a private nurse for the mother of an yusteetsrad -- a Jewish yusteetsrad, and she was living in the Jewish house. And she had -- and this -- the Gestapo had arrested her because they hope that she knows something about money.

Sec, it was always a money -- there were -- this is not -- is -- I think it doesn't come out properly in all this -- this talks and they wanted to know about ma -- she didn't know anything about money, of course. But this yusteetsrad was of course, in prison, too. Suppose em -- of money and he kneeled for her when they were confronted. He kneeled for her and ask her for forgiveness, that she has so much to suffer, because she was employed in that house. And then they thought she has a liaison with him, what wasn't, of course. And a -- a fu -- for a full fortnight she was in pris -- she was arrested and then they let her out. And she was a Protestant and this was a Catholic place and nobody talked to her, because she was an outsider and this was very nice, too, because nobody asked me any questions.

Q: And what was her name?

A: Gell. She died of cancer. I had to -- I -- I had contact with her in London, when I was still -- she died of cancer.

Q: But you did not -- you -- you couldn't take the chance of telling her the truth.

A: No, I did -- I didn't tell anybody. I didn't take -- no, no, I didn't tell anybody. I made her a -- a dearmed lerner wasa dearmed liss. This is the -- wha -- what people in Austria were for holidays or -- you know what -- th-the folkstrat. Th-This is -- and out of -- of the tallah of her -- of the joie yusteetrab, the blaiktella -- net -- he hardly -- I made her a dress of tho -- the blaiktella. You know, I found that this had irony for me, because as a -- as a lawyer myself, to make dress out of a tallah of a lawyer, a dress. But I did it and I -- I was sewing, but I could -- there was no obligation. I could sew whenever I had li -- when I -- ever I wanted, when I said I am going to Munich, so I didn't do any sewing. It was a very easy relationship and we were very, very friendly together and she had a little boy. She told me she got married on an -- in the course of an advertisement. Yeah, she told me all her life story. She was -- had -- had met her husband s -- on -- through -- through an allway advertisement. I suppose she had money after they foam the Jews -- after they were -- to buy the house -- that she had a house there, a nice house. And she had a second room to let, but I took the smallest one. And -- and another room -- I could have changed for a bigger room and I was -- it was a very, very small room and I said I want that room.

Q: Was she close in age to you, was she much older?

A: She was i-in the 30's.

Q: In the 30's.

A: In the 30's. She had a four or a five year old boy at that time. And -- and it -- I so -- it was a very, very easy relationship and I was very free. And I went sometimes -- I couldn't stay always in -- in the house. I went to Munich -- I have never been before to Munich and it was a ver -- it was a holiday place at that time. There were no bombs. Only it was blackout in the evening.

There were n -- and people from all over the country came to Munich for holidays. There was a exhibition and there were opera and this was a -- a -- a real holi -- what I didn't know before, but it was a real holiday place. And there were -- in Munich, it's a beautiful town and as ha -- as it happened, there were many SS man -- men at that time, there from the Baltic. There were -- this - - from latee -- from -- from the Baltic. So they couldn't speak a work of eng -- of German, but were SS men from the Baltic. I have seen quite a lot of them. This was -- was not my company.

Q: Did you go to see the sculpt that you had seen in the film?

A: Yeah, of course.

Q: Yes.

A: Of co --

Q: Was it as beautiful as you when you [indecipherable]

A: Yes, I liked it.

Q: Yes?

A: Yes, | liked it. 1 went there and I went to Munich and there were -- I zo -- as it happened, I didn't have any points of ca-caretakarten and she said she -- she was very nice to me, she said she has a few points over, she would give it to me. So we went to a dress shop in Munich to buy something. She was with me and I put something on, but her points were -- were not enough for that. And the people said it suits me so well, that they gave it to me without points. I got the dress and this dress -- what -- she had a few points over, but she didn't know it, sh-she will get a new

card in -- in no time at all and the people in the shop said I -- as a -- it -- it -- it suits me so well, that they gave it to me only for these few points.

Q: So, in germ -- in -- in Germany during that period of time, it was a like a ration card for clothes? It was --

A: Yes. There was everything ra -- you had -- you could not have your shoe -- shoes you couldn't get. You could not have your shoes repaired without registered some be -- without being registered some. In Bramberg when I was, my -- Werner repaired my shoes, because I couldn't go to a shoemak -- to -- I couldn't have my shoes repaired. And when he was drafted -- when he was -- be -- became a soldier, I did need shoes repaired. Then I went to the shoemaker and gave him my shoes. He said I am not in -- on his list. I said, "You may -- you may find my husband on the list." He was on the list, of course. And then he repaired my shoes. He thought, because my -- he thought it is -- his nagation said I'm not there.

Q: Was it difficult for you to be in Munich walking around with --

A: No, it was -- this was not -- was very interesting in a way. I've never been there before and I went -- I wanted to go to the opera.

Q: And you went once with --

A: I went to -- to Bohemme -- to see Bohemme. I am -- I'm still liking opera and I was --

Q: Did you go alone?

A: I was in a long queue for a cheap ticket and then came a soldier and ask me if he can say Iam his bride. So I allowed him to say I am his bride, because the -- the soldiers didn't have to queue for a tick --

Q: So you got in for nothing?

A: No, not for nothing, but without queuing. I don't know if I paid or he paid for the ticket. I don't know that any more. But I was -- I hadn't eaten anything and I said I haven't eaten, we went into a restaurant. He must have been officer or something. When -- this was full, the restaurant and the waitresses were serving and when we came with the -- sat down and he just got to the waitress -- she was serving somebody. Took the plates and put it in front of me. And nobody said anything. No-Nobody -- as 0 -- went -- this is what I -- I never did know who is an officer or not. But this is what made me think that he was an officer. And as it happened, he -- and so we went to the opera and he did know all the -- all the air -- arias of the opera and in the evening, when I went to the station, in the dark things -- he's sang all the arias to me on the way.

It was a very romantic things. He wanted to meet me again. I made a date, but I didn't go.

Q: Was that typical for you, that you would meet [indecipherable]

A: Yeah. I must say it was. Because I -- how should I explain somebody that I don't -- I was afraid then for questions and everything. When I met new people, it was easy. But people -- to meet people again is more difficult. And then they may get doubt or ask question or a -- maybe -- may saf -- I knew in Vienna once, I was jaywalking again and somebody was on the bicycle and he sprang up and then he said, he said to me, "I have saved your life, now." Because -- because I was in front of the bicycle. I wa -- I was walking in that way. So he can accompa -- he can walk with me and accompany me, because he has saved my life. So -- but I never allowed anybody to go with me as much as my cousin's house, I never did that. And he wanted to meet me again. He -- he was talking against the German -- the Nazis. Anyway -- and before he left me, he said, "If you denounce me, I say it's all a lie, what you'll say." But then he got afraid of it, I suppose and - - and he wanted to meet me again and -- and made me a date and he even gave me an amulet, a Christian amulet, what his mother has given him, so that it is -- that I see how much he wanted to

meet me. And I had this amulet for quite a time, I don't know when I lost it. And -- and -- but I didn't go, of course. I did not -- not meet him again. This was a thing I -- I couldn't do.

Q: You couldn't take the chance?

A: No, couldn't take a chance.

Q: So how did you meet Werner?

A: Werner? In the -- in the -- in an art exhibition. I was inclined for art. I liked -- I like art. And he was -- he -- he sat down beside me and started to talk and he wa -- he -- we went to the art exhibition again, he did know much more about art, what -- I found very attractive. And we went toge -- and we went -- it was seven -- had another seven days holy day and we met every day, as I went. We seem to Nimfemborg to Gamishbartenkieren to -- to the English garden and what -- what you see in -- in -- in -- and from Munich.

Q: So what was it about him that you were able to see him the second and third and fourth --

A: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

Q: You don't know?

A: I don't know, I can't tell -- can't tell. But some-something -- suppose I was charmed by something because I -- I went at that time.

Q: Now, did you tell him where you were living or you didn't tell him, you simply met him in the city?

A: Oh, no -- yeah I met him in the city, always. He didn't take -- it didn't go to desent -- there's no -- but in the end I gave him a address. He couldn't -- otherwise he could not have written to me. But ed -- I'd -- he didn't ever go to Desenhoffen.

Q: Do you think you have instincts for who to trust and who not to trust? Sounds like it, doesn't it?

A: No, I -- 1-- I don't know. I -- as a -- I -- I didn't -- I didn't talk to anybody in all the Nazi time. Only he -- only to him. And this was because he wanted to marry me. Otherwise I wouldn't have told him either.

Q: So you spent a week seeing Werner every day?

A: With him, yes.

Q: And then he leaves?

A: Yeah, he had to leave --

Q: Right.

A: -- because his holiday was over. He was epl -- employed in ba -- at Raddo in -- in Brandenborg.

Q: And did you expect to hear from him or see him again, or you didn't think about it?

A: I -- I suppose we agreed to write to each other, or -- I don't know if he -- I suppose he wrote, I am s-sure I didn't write at first. He wrote to me -- he send me a present. He send me the -- the underkanter from -- from the sane, tha -- exists -- this is a replica of -- of a statuette. The annon of the sane, as a -- somebody who was -- wh -- who died in the sane imperviasnat and he sent me of th-that. It was a -- a little what I liked and we wrote to each other, but not much. And so -- I didn't write -- didn't tell him about myself. And I -- I suppose I wrote to him that I have enrolled at the -- at the Red Cross and I'm going to that -- to that place, I wrote to him.

Q: And that was also a suggestion of Platner? That you [indecipherable]

A: This was after, when I was -- I had already the other people and he got to know me as Gretel Tanner.

Q: Werner did? That you were Gretel --

A: Werner got to know re -- Gretel Tanner, yes.

Q: You -- in between seeing Werner again --

A: Yeah.

Q: Between your first two times in seeing him -- two trips -- you went, unannounced to Vienna, is that right?

A: No -- yeah, because I went -- I'm -- I'm -- I went to Vienna after I had finished the Red Cross course. I didn't -- I have had to go because I hadn't any winter clothes, it was beginning of November and I didn't have a coat or anything. I didn't think I need that, I thought then it's long finished, the Nazi time, until the winter. I had only four or five summer dresses, I didn't have anything else. And I went -- I wanted to go for three days to Vienna and then I thought I can stay with my cousin for the three days, but I wasn't very welcome. This was -- I noticed it, that I wasn't very welcome. And -- as a -- I went to see Crystal, at Crystal's I was always welcome and I went to see Mrs. Needelhile, but this was -- was __. I couldn't stay there. And so I decided to go home after two days.

Q: Did you see Peppy?

A: Yeah, of course I did.

Q: And you -- you weren't welcome [indecipherable]

A: I didn't -- yeah, I was not welcome in -- in with his math -- mother, no. And -- and as a -- I was a nu-nuisance, I've -- you knew -- you know when you are welcome or not. I -- I've -- I had the feeling that this was my -- was not very nice to come to the friends and not to feel welcome, but I felt it at that time and I decided to go home after two days and not to stay three there -- another night in Vienna. In Vienna, I always wore dark glasses. Yes, this was my only one thing.

And I never wore the Red Cross uniform in Vienna, never -- didn't -- this would give me away at once. I never wore that.

Q: Why would it give you away?

A: No, be-because a Jew wasn't allowed in the Red -- in the German Red Cross, you had to have an Aryan [indecipherable] this was not and I never wore that. And --

Q: You also never wore the --

A: Hm?

Q: Red Cross broach.

A: No, they -- the Red Cross broach was worn in front -- only with the uniform. But they were -- I never wore that because there was a little -- a swastika in the middle of the broach and I couldn't go around with a swastika.

Q: And did that get you into trouble in the Red Cross?

A: I was ask -- of course, because the uniform wasn't complete and as a -- said, "I've forgotten it, I'm sorry." Then I was always ask to join the women's -- the -- the women's organization for - - of the party. I said yes, I ask where to go to and where to get the -- I got the address and go home -- went home and they are still waiting for me. Yeah, and I -- as a -- and I was -- I ha -- now I would be among the party members, where -- if I had joined that organization, imagine.

No, as a -- I -- I -- this -- this -- it's a passivity. I was very pass -- I was a nobody. And -- and Red Cross had a pa -- is a -- is a nobody. I was a nobody and a pla -- I was satisfied with being a nobody, I didn't want to shine and I was -- was -- I was a quiet nobody. The nurses in the hospitals at that time, they were all going out with soldiers. They were more interested in the soldiers than in the -- in then -- in the patients. And -- but I was a nobody.

Q: So how -- you come back from Vienna and then do you hear from Werner soon after that?

A: Yeah, there was a telegram there that he's -- that he comes in the morning, on the same morning. And, when I thought -- he has something in business or whatever. Didn't think of ma --

of myself, but I went to the station, I took off my hat, that he would recognize me. And had now a winter coat and a hat and he arrived, he recognized me and we went -- an hour later, he had proposed marriage to me. We went to a sh-shop where we could sit and at once he proposed marriage to me. I thought -- this was a shock. You can imagine. Now he wanted -- as a -- I'd said yes, I love him, but you should not marry in -- you -- in war time and as all what you can say and what you can say -- I talked about it. And -- but -- and in the end, I couldn't get rid of him and he wanted --

Q: Had you fallen in love with him?

A: I don't know -- as a -- I didn't think of marrying at that time, believe me, I didn't think of marrying. But I was -- I -- as a -- I was in a desperate situation at that time. But he was very, very pressing. He wanted to meet my father, you know, I couldn't -- I couldn't produce a father. And he was very, very -- he is very impulsive. He was on the way to wor-work and just didn't go to the works on -- to the -- a -- instead of going to araddo, he went to the station and came to Munich. It suddenly came to him. And so, in the end, that's what I said to him. And he had confessed -- confessed to me that he is in divorce and has a child and is in divorced proceedings.

He -- he had co-confessed that to me. And then I said, I confess -- I said that I'm Jewish and live with somebody. He said at once like this, "It doesn't matter." This -- he said it is good that something is not right with me, as something is not right with him either. He's --

Q: But did you wonder that here he is -- was he in the -- was he a party member at this time, a Nazi party member?

A: Yeah, he was a part --

Q: He was.

Q: He had th-the -- in the -- in the label, he had sa -- he had the party badge on his -- in han -- on -- in -- ins -- on his suit. He wore the party badge.

Q: So did you question him? When he said it didn't matter or that it was [indecipherable]

A: No, I didn't -- no, I -- no -- not -- he -- no, I didn't question him. When I was used -- that it doesn't matter. I met other Nazi, too. But I -- he said it doesn't matter, so it doesn't matter, no.

Q: So for you, the two of you were simply individuals at this moment?

A: Yes, yes.

Q: And the -- the political and the --

A: Yes, yes.

Q: -- horrible situation, was not there.

A: No, we -- yeah, yeah. And I -- but I said to him, positive I know that -- he should go back, I will wait for him, with -- after the war. I love him, but he should go back and think it over.

Because he insisted that it doesn't matter, when this is -- was a crime. And -- and I -- but this, and I know I sh -- I should go to Brandenborg and think it over, I said to him. Should go back.

And he went back in the evening of the same day and he wrote to me when -- then the worst thing is -- this is what you always -- he send me two or three telegrams I should come and I didn't want to get telegrams. This is not so easy. And so I came.

Q: To Brandenborg?

A: On the 13th of December. This was in November and on -- so a munch later already, I was on the way to Brandenborg. On the 13th of December. He arranged that I am staying with the wife of a friend of his.

Q: This is Hilda Shlagel?

A: Hilda Shlagel, yes.

Q: Did you -- during this month, say, I don't think I should be doing this? Or what am I doing, or

A: No, I vor -- I -- I went be -- and -- I went because I -- he sent me telegrams. I didn't want to get telegrams. I couldn't s-say to him, "Stop se-sending telegrams, this is dangerous." I couldn't do that. And so this was a natural fi -- following that I went.

Q: No, what I mean is -- I un -- I understand you were trying to stop him from --

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: -- putting you in danger.

A: Yes.

Q: But now you were in another situation, where it appears you were taking a first step to saying yes, I will marry you. And that --

A: Yeah, yeah, but it was a -- as a -- this was -- I -- I went -- I was staying with Hilda Shlagel -- hill -- and her husband was a soldier, wasn't in -- wasn't there and we were very good friends, very soon. Hilda tell -- told me that they were all Nazis, [indecipherable], Hilda told me that she hadn't tasted butter before Hitler came. Her father was without work and she hadn't tasted butter before Hitler came. Sh-Sh-She told me. And -- and her husband was wounded and was sent to a lautcerett in Metz. Metz is in Emellsass. And she went to him. She had -- was six months -- six weeks in Ellsass, as -- as -- he's -- and went out with him. This was the nicest time of her life.

Was her first holiday and she had six weeks with her husband and because the women got a lot of money in the Nazi time. When Werner was drafted, I got his full wages from the factory. I didn't even know before how much he earns. And I got his full wages, automatically. And -- and she had money, for the first time and had a -- a wonderful holiday in Metz. He didn't come back in the end. He died in Roseland, but this was later and this was -- was forgi -- forget -- forgotten

at that time, that it can happen. The -- I -- I wondered sometimes, how easily it was -- the wo -- the women took the death of a soldier. I couldn't believe that. They were -- at first they were written in -- in the announcement in Schtoltzatower, in -- as a -- in Schtoltzatower, how can I translate it? I am proud -- proud -- I am sorry, but I am proud. And then [indecipherable] stopped. The English made once and -- and the English radio _ the ones how it stopped, as though -- how many there were the first years and how many the last years. But they -- they -- I - - I didn't know ma -- more women where the husband had died in the war and it was taken, to my -- from my feelings, too easily. But they got all money and it may be that in -- in, "Machiavelli the Prince," you know that book? Yeah. He writes that it is easier -- that it -- he writes definitely that people take -- as a -- easier the death of a person than the lo-lots of mon -- than the loss of money. I don't know if you have read it, but he is writing about it. And I have found it is true. There -- the s-soldiers asa -- died somewhere and then they got the note, but they got all money. And -- and Hitler was generous with money.

Q: Did you feel any ambivalence, when you were living with Hilda Shlagel and thinking about being with Werner?

A: No, no, no, no, I -- no, no.

Q: No?

A: Personally, we went on. We went on, she -- every evening she went with me to Werner's when he came home and we had a meal together usually and some talk and when we went home.

She went with us to Berlin for an exe -- for an -- for a trip and so no, I didn't feel -- she was honest in her way, and I didn't feel --

Q: But she didn't know you were Jewish?

A: Of course she did not know.

Q: So -- obviously -- so if you had to always hide.

A: Yeah, I had to always. Yes, yes.

Q: That's -- that's not an easy situation to be in.

A: No, no, it -- a -- a -- I was not allowed to talk anything about my education, anything about my age. I had to pretend that I am younger. Werner sometimes, when we were in company, made -- made jokes about it, what only I understood. And -- and he was -- no, it -- for me it was a life behind a screen. It was not easy not to -- not -- but I found out, when you don't talk, people don't ask much. I found out. Usually people are talking more than they have to and they -- as a -- I had -- they were talking and I was listening. In the hospital I had a patient, a Nazi industrialer, he was a private patient -- End of Tape Four, Side A Beginning Tape Four, Side B

Q: -- but I found out, when you don't talk, people don't ask much. I found out. Usually people are talking more than they have to and they -- as a -- I had -- they were talking and I was listening. In the hospital I had a patient, a Nazi industrialer, he was a private patient because he came to Brandenborg, because in Berlin were so many bombs. So that he had a sto -- stroke and he came to Brandenborg in to so -- in -- into the hospital and I was -- happened to be the nurse.

And he liked to talk to me. I was for him, the public opinion. He met -- yeah, he wanted to ask sa -- as I was very careful, but once I gave myself -- he said, "Sister, you are clever." [indecipherable] I was shocked. I was s -- i-i-it was -- for me it was terrible. I was shocked, I was afraid I have given myself away.

Q: Because you were supposed to be a simple person.

A: Yeah, yeah. I was simple. He said it once. He wanted to take me as private nurse with him to Berlin, to Salandorf, where he was living. I said, "It's impossible, I'm a Red Cross nurse." He said he has enough connection to -- can do it. But then I got married, no? And he insisted that his sons send me moselwine. This was like gold at that time. And I -- so I got moselwine for my wedding, yeah. He was -- he got flowers from Spier, net -- who was at that time in -- in -- in the government. Yeah, he got flowers from them. This was my compady.

Q: Edith, do you think that you -- you partly married Werner for protection, as well as for feelings, or did you --

A: No, I -- I-- look, you have to understood, I felt jilted from th -- from Peppy. I felt that he did not -- he di -- hasn't behaved properly to me. When I wrote him about Werner, he suddenly said think of your mo -- no, I should not marry and all arguments you can bring. "What would your mother say?" And think of that and -- and everything. And he had time before. Enough time, years and years and years. He had time before. And there comes somebody who doesn't know anything of me -- of me. He doesn't know -- he -- he even knows I have a wrong name and wants me. No, so it was a -- an natural reaction. I felt definitely -- and I had made up, when I went to Munich, that I will never marry Peppy and that I felt jilted. He did. Because, for his comfort I had stayed and -- and now he has gone on a comfortable life in hi -- with his mother, but h -- I was not included. I -- not even slept one night in that hou -- in that flat. So I felt -- I felt jilted. I felt he -- he didn't behave properly and honestly to me. And here comes somebody, sent from heaven, who hasn't know me, doesn't know anything of me and knows only that I -- that it is a crime to -- to marry me and he wants me. So I -- I didn't think so much of protection or something. Someone -- I really wanted to share my life with him. It was a protection, but it was not in front -- it was not as a -- for me it was not the -- the reason to do it.

Q: That's what it seemed in your -- in the way in which your letters worked.

A: Yeah.

Q: That the anger against Peppy worked to even enhance the emotions with Werer.

A: Yes, of course.

Q: Werner finally gets a divorce?

A: Yeah, end of January he got the divorce and then I moved into his flat, but I didn't want to get married, not before -- I was afraid of the bureaucracy and all that. We -- we lived very happily.

Q: Yes?

A: Yeah. When I was working and he wasn't working, he made cutoffer poofa as o -- and -- and he was cooking and when he had an hour free, he came to the hospital, when I was working and in the time where I had the break or something, he came to the hospital.

Q: So he was very devoted to you?

A: Yeah, he was. When he was drafted, in -- in "44, he was in a -- in a casairner, this is a military establishment in Brandenborg. He came ever --every evening home. Every evening and it was forbidden to go out for the soldiers. He came on his bike. At midnight he had to be there, he had a -- a special way to come back into -- into this establishment and once he came down and a piece of his bicycle was stolen and he got a shock. He stole the same piece from another bicycle and put it quickly on his bicycle and so that he is back, yeah. It was some -- I -- I sa -- I don't know a bicycle, but he had a shock that something was stolen from the bike. No, but he came home every evening.

Q: Do you think that he knew what was happening to Jews and did you know what was happening to Jews in Poland at this time?

A: No, I don't think that he did know. We didn't talk about that.

Q: You didn't?

A: No, not -- not at all, not a bit. I don't think that he did know.

Q: And was he ever nervous about being caught having married you and protecting you?

A: I don't --

Q: Or [indecipherable]

A: I can't say. I don't know.

Q: You don't know?

A: Maybe. I don't know. We didn't talk about it, it was -- I -- I didn't -- when I was afraid, I didn't say -- I didn't speak about it. I was afraid as often as I entered a restaurant or something, because people were going around so much in the war. But I -- we didn't ta-talk about that.

Q: So how did you get the marriage papers, since you couldn't produce anything?

A: The marriage, as 0 -- I -- I had -- Peppy had, actually -- for the Red Cross, I did already, in -- prove that I am Aryan, I did it. And, at that time, I have learned by heart my -- my grandparents and so forth, so -- so well, that when I came to that establishment, it was a lady in a -- in a palace or something and I enrolled for the Red Cross, she made a remark that it's exceptionally how well I am a -- how well I know my grandparents, because she made a remark about it.

Q: So that was dangerous.

A: Yeah, yes. It is such [indecipherable]. And so I had these papers, I had these papers, what he - - and now, as a -- when I went to -- to the register office, I -- I only went because I was pregnant and I wanted to preg a -- pregnant, I wanted a baby and he didn't want -- I did -- I wanted an illegitimate baby, because I didn't want to get married, but he found that he doesn't want to be a father of an illegitimate baby. Maybe the membership of the Nazi party or something, and so he - - he insisted we must get married. And you -- he was not so afraid. I was more afraid, but I sis --

and took my papers and went to the register office and he looked at my papers and said, "You haven't any papers from your mother." And becau -- I said, "Yes, my mother was from white Russia and I could not get any papers from Russia now, in -- during the war. He said, "Yeah, but she could have been a Jew." Imagine. And I was standing there, then he dropped everything and he looked interesting in my face -- face. I was sitting -- when you see it, he was in front of the desk and I was sitting on this side. And he dropped everything. I don't know how -- I -- I can't tell you how long he looked at my face and then he said, "It is to see that your mother wasn't Jewish."

Q: It's what? It's --

A: It is to see.

Q: Ah.

A: Asum, this offenbyclar that my mother wasn't Jew -- my father was Jewish too -- and -- and that my mother wasn't Jewish and I could get married. When I think of that, in the middle of Nazi Germany -- when I went home, I was laughing all the time. I couldn't -- he says, you -- you get --

Q: Was Werner with you?

A: No.

Q: So you were alone when you were with this man?

A: Yeah. And I didn't tell him about this, no, no. I said we can get married. I didn't tell him about that, no.

Q: All right, let's take a break.

End of Tape Four, Side B

Beginning Tape Five, Side A

Q: Edith, when we took a break the last time, you were talking about going to the registry -- the registrar -- about getting married.

A: Right.

Q: So you were convinced by Werner to get married at this point?

A: Yes. I -- I -- we -- we got married and I was very nervous at the wedding. I don't know anything about the wedding, I was so afraid I'd sign unconsciously, the wrong name. | had to sign my real, Christina Maria Marguerita Denner and was so afraid, that I don't know anything.

Hilda Shlagel and her husband were my witnesses and -- now afterwards, we had a meal and nothing else.

Q: So just the four of you?

A: Yes, of the four -- there were no other guests or anything.

Q: And how many months pregnant were you by then?

A: Hm?

Q: How many months pregnant were you? S-Six months?

A: Noth -- yeah, about -- as a -- this was in October. I think it's the sixth and -- I sa -- somewhere in October and in Apr-April, my daughter was born. I had -- when I was young, the doctor told me I can't have a child because of my heart condition, in Vienna, when I was 16. I had forgotten about it and -- but I had to take pills for the heart during my pregnancy. I had to take pills.

Q: So did that heart condition affect you when you were working? It didn't, did it? In the camps?

A: I don't know. I had to work. Nobody ask if I have a condi -- heart condition or not.

Q: So, how was it after you got married to Werner? Things were fine?

A: Things were fine, yes. When I was pregnant, I could s-stay home, then. As soon as it was -- I never went to a doctor any more and -- and I had no -- no doctor there, I wa -- felt fine. It was a hap -- a happy time in a way. I was waiting for her and I didn't work and was only at home.

Q: So you stopped working after the Red Cross went --

A: Yeah, est -- yes.

Q: Before you got -- before you got married? Or after?

A: No, when I got married, I was still working. I -- I had only one day off. I had - -and -- and I was still working, but soon afterwards, I was -- it was -- I stopped.

Q: So you had wanted a child for a long time, I gather?

A: Yeah, I wanted. Yeah, I wanted her, because I had so many be -- I was already 29 years old and I'm af -- was afraid I'm getting too old for it. And I was -- I wanted yeah -- f-five or six or something. And I wanted to start. And I was -- of -- of course I wanted her.

Q: So, you didn't have a doctor. So what happened the evening that you felt your labor pains?

You -- you said you played chess?

A: Oh, he -- he -- he took the lexicon -- the convers -- co -- what you have and looked it up, what you have when you have a labor pain and ask me if I have that and that and that -- what was written in -- in -- in the lexicon. And I always said, "No, no." I didn't know that wa -- at -- I said, "T don't know, I don't know." But at -- at midnight and I went -- but it -- there was no -- no carriage or anything. I had to go -- to walk, more than half an hour, to -- to the hospital.

Q: You walked?

A: Walked. No, there was no carriage or anything -- in that -- in the dark town. Because it was all dark. And -- and in the morning, she was born.

Q: But you said you were walking around half the night before you told Werner that you had --

A: Yeah, maybe -- up to midnight.

Q: Why? Why did you wait so long?

A: I don't know -- I -- I didn't know, I can't tell you that, but it -- but at midnight I woke him up and then he came with the conversationes lexicon and -- and told me -- ask me, I feel that -- I feel that -- I feel that and I said, "I don't know." And I -- it was my first child, I didn't know that.

Q: So your daughter was born, and what did you name her?

A: I'm -- I'm -- Maria Ange -- Maria after Maria Needelhile, because without her, she wouldn't have been born and Angelica was his choice. Angelica Kaufman was a painter -- a painter. And she was wa -- he was -- she was one of the founder of the Royal Academy in England. But -- was very well known painter. And he wanted that she should be a painter, yes.

Q: Really?

A: Yeah. And this -- as is -- this happened, she is a painter.

Q: And did he not make the [indecipherable]

A: Yeah, he made all -- every one, he -- he made himself. This what is here -- he was -- was sent to Peppy.

Q: So it's in the Holocaust Museum collection?

A: Yeah. This was sent to Peppy, this -- and -- but all others he -- he made himself, yeah.

Q: And he had met Peppy --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- before the birth of --

A: Yes, yes, yes. He met -- he has met her -- he met him in Vienna. And he hel -- had helped him to a document, to --

Q: What was that meeting like, between -- nothing?

A: No, they were quite normal, yeah.

Q: So, was having a baby everything that you wished, when you saw this beautiful child?

A: Yeah, this was now my -- yes, she was -- she was a nice baby. She was very good and she was a -- people came to me and ask me h-how to bring up a baby, as if I were -- because she was such a good baby. Can't believe it. Above me, there was a woman, a -- a couple living, they wanted to adopt a child, but they were no Nazis, so they didn't get a child to -- for adoption, uh?

And sh -- after Angela was about three months old, she came back with a baby, she had a baby.

And this -- as a -- sh -- they were -- they are very devoted to the baby. As I have heard later on, the father was a French prisoner and the mother was a German girl. And when our house was burned out in -- after the war, I was in office in the court, she came to me and she said to me, how long to -- does she have to pr -- go to prison when it comes out, then? She had given her this child, and it -- in another town, where she went, she gave different name, as a -- she said it is her child, it wasn't hers. Because the Russians have all these mixed children from prisoners, have all taking away. People who had children, who were already two or three years old, the Russian collected all children and took all children away. And she had pretended that it is her child and now she came to me and ask me how long she's -- she would have to go to prison when it comes out. And she said to me, "They can take everything what I have, again, but not this child." Now she must be about -- over 50. I hope it never came out.

Q: And how was Werner with the child?

A: No, it a -- he was -- at that time, it -- he was not so interested in ba -- he had ya -- had already a child and he didn't take a s-special interest in her.

Q: Was he disappointed that it wasn't a boy?

A: Yeah. He was in -- disappointed, he wanted -- because he had a girl. He loved his girl, and he wrote to her and -- but he was disappointed. He wanted a boy and he -- he -- the boy should be named Klaus. But it wasn't.

Q: Did you meet his other child?

A: Yeah, she wa -- came to me ev -- holiday.

Q: And what was --

A: She was six months in my hou -- six weeks in my house. Yes, she came to me and -- and we - - at the age of four.

Q: And what was she like?

A: She -- she had -- as it happened, a club foot. Do you know what that is? Because her grandfather had too, and it was in the family, it run in the family. And she had an operation at that time. And she had to wear special sh-sheens and shoes at that time and she came. Now she -- now I know -- I have met her after the war and she said -- sh-she tells -- her feet -- her legs are not quite the same and she says she had the -- a bicycle accident, to explain it. She said -- but she said, if -- should one of her sons -- they had two sons, marry a girl she doesn't like, then she will tell her about the -- the -- about the illness which is inherited, she said. But she pretends she had an bicycle accident. She's very tall, not like my daughter. She's very, very tall, h-her mother was tall and she -- she was so tall that her sons didn't want to go out with her.

Q: Was -- I thought I remembered you telling me that -- that she walked around and said, "Heil Hitler," and one day [indecipherable]

A: Yeah, wh -- yes, that -- she was -- her mother wa -- she -- she -- she went into my flat and noticed that I haven't got the Hitler bild. And she told me after the war, because I were -- I was talking, I told her that. We met in London, she was living in London and I told her and she's --

she said she was all -- going on, saying "Heil Hitler" to everybody, until her mother smacked her so hard that she stops making -- that she stops saying "Heil Hitler." Her mother must have been a great Nazi, that she brought up the child in that way, when she was only four years old and saying -- what can you expect when you are taught to say "Heil Hitler" to everybody? Actually, when I was at court, Brandenborg, they -- in Brandenborg there was nothing burned or anything.

All the files were there. And when I got files, the Germans had not on written "Heil Hitler", this was normal. Many wrote underneath, "Gott -- Gott strafa England." God punish England, on the end of -- of a -- wa -- wa -- of an appellation it was to the court, of an -- yeah.

Q: Really?

A: [have seen it with my -- and then they were standing for me and told me that they were never Nazis. Yeah.

Q: Now, did -- did -- Werner's other daughter --

A: Yeah?

Q: Go to her father and say, "Where is Hitler on the -- on the wall? Why isn't -- why isn't there a picture?" Or she didn't?

A: No, she wa -- he was roundabout and she was li -- when she was used, I suppose, in every house to see a Hitler picture. I didn't go into it, what she said, I didn't go into it. And she had to live without the Hitler picture in my house.

Q: So tell me, did you have some sort of a -- a -- since now you were married, social engagements with colleagues of Werner, or --

A: No, at -- no, he hadn't much -- many friends. He hadn't many -- many friends, no. He wasn't -- he hadn't many friends, no. I had -- nos -- not a special social life. | was with Hilda Shlagel and -- but I -- I can't remember if was somebody else, not --

Q: That was helpful to you not to have any social life.

A: Yes, I didn't -- I didn't look for a social li -- I -- I had a good relationship to everybody who lived in the house and I had -- and after the war I was -- I met -- happened a neighbor and we kept together, but I had no -- no social life in that way.

Q: Was it difficult for you to be a mother? You had never been a mother and you hadn't watched anybody.

A: No, I have seen in -- in the hospital. I was a nurse.

Q: Ah.

A: In -- in the maternity ward. No, it was not difficult.

Q: [had forgotten that you were --

A: Yeah, I was -- I knew -- this was not -- I did know about it.

Q: But they took you away from some -- you were doing a certain job and then you --

A: No, I wa -- before I was -- it was in other wor -- wards. But this was my last one, the maternity ward, because I was not allowed to work with foreigners any more, I was too friendly to them.

Q: So the maternity ward was helpful to you --

A: Was fo --

Q: -- because then you learned a lot.

A: Yes, I learned a lot.

Q: So, you lived with Werner then for what? A year and a -- you were married for a year and a half and then he was drafted?

A: He was drafted on the third of se -- first of September, "44, but two days later he went there.

H-He -- no -- no he -- he -- he was supposed to go on the first, but after two days he didn't dare

to stay away any more. Af -- he went there on the third and then he was in Brandenborg and he was sent to F-Frankfurt on the Order, before Christmas and he wanted me to -- to come to Christmas and I came. And -- and Hilda Shlagel looked after Angela for four days and I -- I went to him -- to -- to Frankfurt, this was a new year -- new year after Christmas, "45, in Frankfurt on the Order.

Q: And then he was -- went to the front?

A: Then he was -- I -- I -- I didn't see him and he was -- then became a Russian prisoner in Kustrene.

Q: And so he was a prisoner for two years?

A: For two years. In Sib-Siberia. This is where he sent me that letter, from Siberia.

Q: That's -- that's hidden in the -- that was hidden in the --

A: Yes. Yes.

Q: Was that a difficult period for you now, for two years you were alone with your daughter?

You had money, because you were getting a salary.

A: I get the salary, yes. We -- we couldn't buy much on -- for the salary and I -- what I saved on money, he had taken all our money with him. Yes, we had -- what we had saved and he told me that he throw away 10,000 marks because he was afraid the Russians would take him for a Capitalist. He throw it away.

Q: But why did he take the money? He was going --

A: Yeah, he wa -- he thought he may have to buy something as a -- he felt better and I left him at -- when I -- I didn't care for money at all and I had -- what I saved this half year I was alone, I took out before the Russians came -- out of the bank. And I said to Hilda Shlagel she should take her money out of the bank, too, but she was afraid, she has too money -- much money in the

house and she didn't. And she lost everything. And I -- because, when the Russians came, they opened the banks, they throw the me -- money about. And -- but I had -- and I did need it, I had the savings from the six months, I had with me. But she had nothing, because she was afraid that sh -- I -- 1 -- even I had told her to take -- she should do it. She didn't.

Q: There were allied bombs in Brandenborg?

A: Only -- only on the end. Not many. It was on -- on Easter "45, there were the -- there were the first bombs. But -- but not before.

Q: Did you have to go downstairs into the basement or [indecipherable]

A: We had to go always down there, but I didn't.

Q: You didn't?

A: No. Because all the babies had whooping cough and I was afraid more of whooping cough than of the ba -- bombs. I was afraid of whooping cough. And I was standing with the blanket in my hand, near the coat, so th -- I have to run. And -- but it's -- only on the end there were bombs.

Because they flew every day over. And they said on the wireless, they are in unf -- they are unfluke -- how do you tell [indecipherable]. An unfluke of Brandenborg, as a -- they are flying to Brandenborg. They said it, every day on the wireless, and --

Q: Did you have a radio?

A: Yeah.

Q: So you could hear?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you get BBC broadcasts?

A: Yes.

Q: You did? That was illegal, though, wasn't it?

A: Yeah, it was illegal, it was, yes it was illegal. And not only BBC, I got barominster, this was Switzerland and Voice of America, this I got too. And I got the Russian, too, but I didn't -- they started always, "Death to the occupants." This was their beginning. And I think the Russians were not -- not what I expected, I found that -- not what -- I -- 1-- BBC, on BBC I heard Rosh Hashonah. The -- the chief rabbi of England -- this was an experience, I tell you.

Q: Really?

A: Yes. He -- he -- Brody, I think was his name at that time and he spoke. My tears were running down and he -- this was a very touching experience, to hear the -- that Chief Rabbi, the Rosh Hashonah.

Q: Do you remember?

A: Of course I remember.

Q: What he said?

A: This was a ver -- a big -- I don't know what -- I so -- he said that we are all welcome and -- and all what -- what is good, but -- but I di -- can't remember word -- what he said, but it was a -- a -- areally deep, feeling experience, to hear the Chief Rabbi about -- over the radio from the BBC.

Q: Were you also getting news from those sources about the murders in the east, or not? You still didn't know.

A: No, I -- I -- Ido remember in the Voice of America, once Thomas Mann speak -- spoke. I can't remember exactly what he said any more, but I know he spoke about it.

Q: So by then you knew? [indecipherable]

A: Y-Yeah and -- and not exact -- as a -- it -- it -- it didn't come from sold exactly. I mean, you always hoped that it is not so bad. My mother was --as I have heard later on from the coltis

commander, she was sent to Minsk. And in the book of Goldhagen, as a -- my mother was deported in June 1942 and in the book of Goldhagen, state -- is written, that in -- on the end of July, in Minsk, was this mass murder and I suppose my mother was then sent and was murdered there, in Minsk.

Q: How does the war end for you? What happens at the end, 1945?

A: 1945 I was -- I -- Ili -- m-my house, my flat was on the end of Brandenborg and they sent in to defend Brandenborg, Russians. Yes, Russian sol -- from these Russian brigade. They were more afraid -- I wasn't afraid of the Russian. They were more afraid than the Germans, they were -- of the Russians. And they came into the flats -- not in front of it. And then the SS came and with pis -- and with the pistol in the hands, they force him to go out again. But in the end they took these people away and -- and then there was -- so we were in the cellar or everywhere -- everywhere and I think I was the only one who was asleep, because I was not so afraid as the others -- the others. They told us -- I didn't believe all the propaganda, even what we sa -- what was true, I didn't believe any word the Nazis said of all the rapes and all, I didn't believe it. And then it -- I was in the -- in the house and the artillery -- the Russian artillery, shot aw-away the ha -- the roof. And in the end, German soldiers came in -- this was in the night already and said we all have to go out and have to run away. Then I| put my baby into the pram and ran with the others, because -- and the -- the -- the bridges were already prepared for -- for blasting -- for explosion. And this was the last what I have seen of my house and then I was running and in the end I ended up in a barn somewhere, I don't know which -- which [indecipherable] and I noticed that my daughter has measles. We're -- I was going from house to house and ask they should a ill child let into a house, nobody let me. Nobody let me in. And in the end, this was a very small house, there were two women living and they let me in. And then I was with them, I was

sleeping -- the child was in the pram -- at least they could make it dark, because with measles you shouldn't have sunlight. No, and a doctor was not to think of. A-And -- and then Russian soldiers were all streaming in -- everybody had a white -- a -- a -- a white flag already and everybody -- and they were streaming and they came to that house too and I made pancakes for them. They found some eggs somewhere and they had a -- the-there were no electricity any more, but they had a battery. They heard the last speech of they -- Dernis, who was the follow of Hitler at that time and he said that people should follow the -- the rules of the -- of the allyearten, and Germany is like a ship which has lost his direction. He's -- this I do remember and -- and then the German soldiers went to the east and -- and at that time, I -- I started to -- not to talk too friendly of the Nazis, I suppose and the soldier took me away and said that it's still dangerous, I shouldn't talk in such way. As a -- a friendly soldier, and he warned me --

Q: This was a German?

A: It was a German. He warned me from the Germans. So I sa -- I shut up. And they went away to the west. They wanted to take me with them, actually, but I couldn't go with a ill child and then there was nobody there and these two women went on her -- their bra -- on -- on their bicycles and went away, I was alone. Didn't want to receive -- to be alone, so I went to Brandenborg back with the baby. I met the first Russian soldiers in the wood, they didn't look at me and I didn't look at them. And I must say, I was never touched and never raped by a soldier. I was -- I had a watch even, on my -- my -- on my wrist and it was not taken from me. As -- I was lucky again. And then I went into Brandenborg and here I had the worst experience of my life.

There we -- the way to -- into Brandenborg was over a deep, deep ditch and this -- the bridge over it was -- was bla -- exploded. There was a hole in the middle and this hole was filled with the door -- with a -- a lavatory door, with a heart cut out. And I had to walk over this door -- over

this ditch with the pram. This is an experience what still was -- I -- I still cannot see any height or anything. This was a -- a terrible strain on me and I could --

Q: And how deep -- it was a deep ditch?

A: Yeah, the -- very deep. Very, very deep. Some -- somebody told me it's filled out now and very deep ditch. Not only -- as it would be death. And -- and then I went to the place where I lived -- where I had been living, the house was burned out and in the cellar there was a small suitcase where my real document was. And I wanted to get to that. And it was so hot still, that I couldn't go in. I -- and a Russian soldier noticed that, that I tried and he went -- as I couldn't speak, he went in for me and too -- and took out this suitcase for me. He could -- and so he was - - he noticed that I am fighting with the heat, because we were lying -- they had taken out of the rest of the houses, the mattresses, put it there and they were lying about and so I -- and in this suitcase was a book, where in the book was my -- my exam paper of law and my identity card.

Q: The real one?

A: The real one. This was built in between -- Peppy had done it for me -- between the covers. As o -- then I had that book and then I met a neighbor and we kept together. We see -- she was -- had a pram too, and was pregnant and had a -- a baby in a pram. And we met -- we didn't know where to go and we met our doctor. The -- the baby -- the children's doctor and she told us to go to a home of -- of chil -- a children's home, a Protestant children's home was there and so she knows that and we should go there. We went there and they took us in and we were of twos -- what you have -- this were -- how do you call that in English? When you have somebody ill and you put the bed o-on -- it was not a normal bed, it was just such -- for an -- for emergency. And this too, they put in -- in the room behind the stage and we laid down -- were lying down there and the children were in the pram. And in the night -- and so I didn't think of -- of locking the

door or anything and in the night drunk Russian soldiers came in and all the rooms where the lock was, they -- and they went -- they opened the door, but as it wasn't closed, it wasn't important. When it were closed, they would have broken in. But as it wasn't closed, it -- the door went and -- I saw -- up and down and was moving. And we were holding hands all the night, until the Russian soldi -- until it was quiet. This was our night there. And then we decided not a second night in that place and we went away. And we went in the flat which was empty, where the people had run away. The doors didn't close and the win -- windows didn't close, but this ul - - small things we didn't mind. And we were -- and we had no water, no gas, no electricity. I had to go for every drop of water, to a hydrant in the street somewhere away. And there we managed somewhere to survive. I don't know what we ate at that time. There was no food at [inaudible] on top of it. And she got in contact with her mother and may -- and moved to her mother and I was staying on in that flat until the people came back who were living there. And we got -- they were very thankful because I hadn't stolen anything. There was all intact the house, even their watches and everything and I me -- ha -- they were very thankful that nothing was stolen. And I lived then with that people for a month. I was very friendly with their daughter and with the woman had a gruder, because -- I don't know if you know that -- this is a -- an oven, what in Germany, it is -- this is a long -- an oven where they have coke. And this is glowing. And you -- to -- to cook something there, you need hours. But the woman who -- of the house, she didn't want me in the kitchen, she did all the cooking for me and did everything. She didn't want -- she didn't want to be disturbed, was an elderly woman there, was good, we sat up in there. I've -- had been living for months with them. And sometimes they gave me an egg -- egg or something for the baby. And then I moved into a-an empty house, where the people had run away. This was not directly in Brandenborg, it was in a suburb of Brandenborg, in the -- on the gerdin. And he --

I was living there and then in -- in September, half a year after the war, I applied for a job at the court. They were very glad to see me and to receive me. And because the Russians didn't allow Nazi to be judges or something. And then I was living in that house for quite a time and then the people came back. And according to th -- how it was at that time, I could have stayed in the house, but I didn't want -- I didn't forget what happened to us. I -- I moved out of the house, left everything. And I couldn't -- I -- I -- | couldn't be with Angela at once, and Angela went to the people -- to a woman -- to a couple who was -- was looking after her when I was working then.

And I was working in -- was living in a room in th -- in the courthouse and there was with the people who were looking after the house, I was living with them. So it was about two months until I got the fred what I had then. And what I managed that -- to have. And then, after a time -- and so it was empty, but people helped me to furnish it. It was very nicely furnished already.

And then I --

Q: Can you tell me about your work?

A: Huh? I was working all the time in that time. From I -- I worked from September "45, I worked as a -- at the court.

Q: Even without a law degree?

A: Huh?

Q: Even without the degree?

A: [had -- I had -- according to German law, I had a better degree than in Austria. Because they didn't ask the -- what we call the third examination. They didn't ask for -- to -- to make an examination economy and inshta -- in -- in -- state in Constitutions and -- this was not asking in Germany. And af-after German law, they had to a -- a -- to adjust the Aus -- after the Anschluss,

they had to adjust the Austrian study and the German study. And I was better qualified -- qualified in Germany than in Austria.

Q: Now, did the Russians know who you really were? They -- they knew who you -- they knew -

A: The Russians did. They -- at first they -- what I know -- they were examining my -- my past, if I had worked with the Nazis or not. My -- my past was -- was gloofsy and people told me that there were -- that they were interviewed about me and then they were -- as a -- I was working about -- after the Nuremberg tria-trial, the Russians wanted me to judge the Nazis, what I didn't want to do. And --

Q: Why?

A: I was the only Jew there. Whatever I say would be wrong. At first they would say is too strong an -- a -- a sentence or they would say it is too low a sentence. I want -- I says, whatever I say, I had no confidence that my judgment would be accepted as ob-objective judgment. And this is why I didn't want to do it. And because I had -- in the two years I worked there, I had no appellation against my sen -- any sentence of me. Not from the attorney and not from the people.

They were -- it was accepted. I was -- I -- I -- I ju -- I was working in criminal law. Civil law was not very important at that time and I was working in family law and in youth. They -- i-in -- the youngsters I didn't want to send into prison -- 16 years or something. They all were black marketing -- black market things. So | -- I arranged -- I don't know if it was legal at that time, now it is -- I didn't -- don't know -- I arranged that they have to work civ -- do civil work, because there was so much to do. And that they have so many hours to work. This was my invention. I didn't -- I don't know if it was legal. I -- I don't know. And -- and -- but I did it, because I didn't want the youngsters to send to prison. And they had to clean up the street and --

and work with old people or something. The 16 and 17 years old. Only one came back to -- to the court. I suppose he will -- he has become a criminal, only one. And the Russians had 0 -- all the prison. So they were all free. Many who were freed went into prison again and one was a special case. He established himself as a doctor and after the first accidents, the first deaths, it came out that he isn't a doctor. And he was then -- came then to me and was put into prison again. I know his mother came to me and said what a wonderful boy he was. And he escaped from prison and after awhile, I got a letter from the west -- he escaped to the west, that he did the same there. He established himself in the west as a doctor, he had -- yes, and he was caught in the west and they ask me what happened before. So I know it. This was -- was all in -- in the war. Yes, it -- when -- when it came to it. And -- but I -- I -- I had never a question, I wasn't unsure, I had no sleepless night about my cases and I liked it. I was -- I -- I was very happy in my profession.

Q: You -- you defended one person who was brought up on a criminal charge, a woman who had

A: Yeah, yes. She had murdered her three children. And she was once my patient in the hospital.

And she was -- she had a very -- she told me all her stories when I was -- how brutal her husband was to her. And she had -- in -- on the end of the war, murdered her three children, strangled them and -- and wanted commit suicide, jumped into the river. And Russian soldiers saw it and saved her and -- and put her out. And she got, she -- she -- she got sent -- an ex-officer, as a -- a - - a lawyer and when she heard that I am in the court, who did know her story, she ask the -- the director that I should defend her. And the other lawyer, for her sake, put down his -- his -- his charge. And she - -and I -- and this was the only case. I was, at that time not -- not rikes- rikesflaga, that I was defend -- as a -- and I played -- I had made a play toyae about her and she got free. Because I didn't know her story so well. She -- she had told it to me before and she --

she got free, she was -- and actually, she was then working with a woman, a friend, with the children. And so it was a [indecipherable] -- it was the end of a very, very difficult life, what she did, because she had a very brutal husband.

Q: So what was your defense of her?

A: What -- what I told her story and --

Q: And they thought she shouldn't be punished?

A: Yeah, I told her story, how sh -- how it developed and so she got free. This was the only one that I was a defender.

Q: And what is happening to your daughter? While you're working, who's taking care of her?

You now have a house.

A: She was -- she -- yes, she was -- during the day, she was in -- in a children's -- th-this was Protestant nurses who took children in and I could leave her there even overnight when I once had to go to Berlin or something. And she liked it and so she was very, very easy, everywhere she was very easy. She was happy everywhere and everybody loved her and so if she -- but she got then diphtheria. Yeah, she had diphtheria and this was -- and she was at home with diphtheria and I was -- stayed at home with her when she had diphtheria. She was not in the hospital. But after the diphtheria, she -- she had a -- a dark, smelly ossfloose --something coming out of her nose and she had to go to the hospital every few days to make -- for -- for to look after her. And then I took her to Berlin, because in the east there was no penicillin. And I took her to the French zone in Berlin and put her there into a hospital. This was "47. And -- and she was -- three weeks she was running about, because she wasn't in bed any more, she was already healthy and she was running about. I went once a week to visit her and she was running about with the nurses and she -- it -- it was easy with her. You could tell her it is so and she didn't cry and she accepted --

accepted it and after three wa -- weeks, she was cured. They told me I could leave her, ish -- is -- but how can a girl run about -- be a danger to other people. No, I didn't -- and they had -- with penicillin she was cured.

Q: And when does Werner return?

A: A-At that time, when she was in hospital, when I told her, she -- she said only -- he had written to me, I don't know, he hadn't written, but she had the imagination, he had written to me.

She -- she didn't know that he is coming. She said -- yeah.

Q: Did she remember him?

A: No.

Q: She didn't?

A: She hadn't seen him at all and she was a baby. No, she didn't know anything. But maybe I told her and she -- she thought she had se -- he had written to her. And then she came home and I had another girl in my house at that time, a girl from the orphanage, she's was -- End of Tape Five, Side A Beginning Tape Five, Side B

A: -- because she wasn't in bed any more, she was already healthy and she was running about. I went once a week to visit her and she was running about with the nurses and she -- it -- it was easy with her. You could tell her it is so and she didn't cry and she accepted -- accepted it and after three wa -- weeks, she was cured. They told me I could leave her, ish -- is -- but how can a girl run about -- be a danger to other people. No, I didn't -- and they had -- with penicillin she was cured.

Q: And when does Werner return?

A: A-At that time, when she was in hospital, when I told her, she -- she said only -- he had written to me, I don't know, he hadn't written, but she had the imagination, he had written to me.

She -- she didn't know that he is coming. She said -- yeah.

Q: Did she remember him?

A: No.

Q: She didn't?

A: She hadn't seen him at all and she was a baby. No, she didn't know anything. But maybe I told her and she -- she thought she had se -- he had written to her. And then she came home and I had another girl in my house at that time, a girl from the orphanage, she's -- was her companion and they were happy together, they were -- it wa -- it worked all very normal. Only Werner didn't fit in.

Q: So that was difficult, when he --

A: Yes, it was diffi -- and the girls, when he left then, he left at first and went to sh -- Hilda Shlagel. She was a widow at that time, already. Her husband didn't come home and he was welcomed there as a -- we -- she was a widow and the girls, the -- the two were very, very glad when he left. Yeah, the children, because he was -- it -- it was a very easy living in my house, we were very, very happy. And he was the one who disturbed the peace.

Q: And how did he disturb the peace? What was --

A: How?

Q: Yeah, how?

A: A-At first -- at first he was brutal and he was -- he made the big row. Maybe he had a so -- a hole in his sock. This was my real occupation, to mend his socks, not to go to court. And he -- he

was -- as 0 -- 1-in everything -- with the food and with everything, he -- and so he was very difficult.

Q: So did you ask him to leave or did he leave on his own?

A: No, he leaved on his own. I was ver -- I didn't want hi -- I didn't want a divorce.

Q: You didn't?

A: No. He wanted it. He asked for the divorce. Because he wanted to marry his first wife -- wife again and to live with her and with -- with the child. And I -- and no, I didn't want it. He ask me even if I can ask to have it quicker sent to him, that -- so that he could marry quicker. And he was -- married his first wife again and of course got divorced again. And then -- he had not changed and she had not changed and then he got -- and I told him to go to the west. I told him that. He went to the west. And in the west, I suppose he wanted to get something from organization. I got an application, he had told that his wife -- that he -- he -- he and his wife had only divorced to save me, what wasn't true [indecipherable]. And I suppose he made an application maybe to the Joint or to anything and I got a -- I got a letter if it is true. I didn't want to do anything against him definitely, so I just didn't open -- didn't answer that letter. And so I left -- I dropped it. I won't -- it didn't come a second one, this was the only one. But I suppose he wanted to get something at that time and had told such a lie. But was not the first lie he told. And -- and -- and then the -- | -- I didn't react to it. I didn't want to -- to write that he's a liar and I dropped it. I didn't -- and waited if I get the second. But I didn't get the second letter.

Q: Edith, why didn't you want to divorce him? Since it was so difficult, clearly you couldn't live together?

A: I didn't want to divorce him. No, I hoped it -- I hoped it will be --

Q: Uh-huh.

A: I mean there were difficulties, they -- people had changed. A Nazi was nothing any more.

Before, he was a member of the party, now n-nothing wa -- it was nothing any more. And I hope that he will get normal. I didn't want -- I didn't want to live with him. And so it -- it happened that he was divorced again and I don't know, after -- he -- he married a few times more.

Q: Really?

A: Yeah. He mar -- he married his fourth wife, yeah the fourth wife, I didn't know. I got to know aminster. And we -- I -- I was always invited there. She d-died a short time ago and when she -- Angela was then apported by the court to look aft -- to look after her as a guardian and this was the fourth wife and she -- he -- he got -- he was divorced of -- a-again to his first wife and then he married again a fifth -- a f-- a fifth -- I don't know if he is st -- he -- no, at first he lived with somebody and then he married a-another one. And so it -- he's a difficult person, in that way.

Q: Was your -- do you think there was anything about your being Jewish after the war, that made a difference to him, or that it was [indecipherable]

A: No, I don't think so. No, no, no. The other women were not Jewish and it was difficult with them atway -- had the same difficulties, no, I don't think that this played a role.

Q: At -- at some point--

A: But he was influenced by Nazis -- Nazis in that way, that he said the Jewish race is stronger, as the Nazis say it. And he say it when I wanted a baby even, that he is only the -- that will not be his baby in that way, it will be a Jewish baby. It is because of the Jewish race and the -- he is only what they call the auslazin -- he -- his words, the auslazin, the elemen. He is only one who makes it go -- who -- that it happens, but really, the Jewish race is stronger. This was his -- his honest opinion. I didn't mind to have a Jewish child.

Q: When did he say that to you?

A: When I -- when I was -- when I --

Q: [indecipherable] was born?

A: When she was born, may before she was born. Before she was born, even. But I didn't mind that she is my baby only, not his. Didn't mind that. And Angela said afterwards, he said it to her, too. But you hear it and hear it and hear it, so every -- it's every German thought that he is something special.

Q: What was it like living under the Russians, in the --

A: Oh, under the Russians? I had not contact with the Russians in -- in that way. They came into the -- when they came to the -- to the court, they were very, very polite and ask me for -- they were not interested in the criminal law. They were only interested in -- in something -- what happens with sabotage or something. And actually, they -- there was a law -- they made a law you could char -- you could put into prison everybody, because of sabotage. This was what we call the carchouk -- carchouk law. As o -- what you can -- but nobody used it. I never used it and I don't think that anybody else used it. And -- and though they were not -- as | -- they were not interested in the normal criminal law. And only they wanted me to judge the -- the N-Nazis, what I didn't do, and this was a bit difficult. In the end, I had to give up being a judge and had to become an attorney, because of that. But it was worthwhile. And then he was in -- in -- in -- and then they wanted -- they encove -- encovered -- as o -- they get -- the Secret Service came. And this was too much for me. Nets -- you -- they wanted me to become an informer. And this -- this as I -- was not -- couldn't do. But I could get everything from them if I would do it. They s -- I could get food, I could have money, whatever I wanted. They -- they are very cher -- ver -- they have been -- I was ill, they send me a kilo butter. A kilo, this was a -- a fortune. They send me in-

into the hou -- into the -- without asking -- we -- I haven't asked them to give me anything. And they offered me money. Ah, you --

Q: It's okay.

A: You [indecipherable] a day off, what --

Q: So you told them no?

A: Hm?

Q: You told them no?

A: No, they told me, you help -- we help you, now you help us. They didn't wear a uniform.

They went in civil -- they came to my flat -- they came to my flat.

Q: And what did you tell them?

A: Isa -- I -- I said that I don't want to. I so -- at first I said I want to -- I said I want to go to visit my sister. And when they -- I -- I'm going -- I want to go to England to visit my sister. I had a visitor permit. And they said I will be arrested in -- in England. I wasn't afraid of being arrested in England. And there was a meeting in the flat of a officer, Russian officer, where I was -- there was something, somebody higher than the -- I -- because nobody spoke when this man spoke.

And this was the one who told me I will be arrested and everything, when I go to England, but I - - it only made me sure that I have to go. I could -- you ca -- cannot say straight, "I don't do it," because they don't accept it

Q: Let's take a break.

End of Tape Five, Side B

Beginning Tape Six, Side A

Q: Edith, can you -- can you tell us how you got out of Germany?

A: This is a long story. I -- well I dec -- I decided I had -- I had sleepless nights at that time, believe me. And I didn't tell anybody. In the end I told one, the director of the amski -- of the amskery. I told him, but I didn't tell anybody else, I didn't want that somebody has to carry a secret. And I didn't write -- after awhile to anybody, because I know the le -- the letters are s -- I didn't want to bring anybody in danger. This was my reason. And -- as 0 -- [had to come to a passport and then I rented in the end, a room in Berlin, what I was told by -- in -- in a British -- in the British office and I applied for a passport there. And I ha -- I didn't need for that a -- a document of -- of the police, that I can come -- come through. Because it was forbidden, even for Berliners to come -- to lea -- to go back to Berlin. And I waited for this police officer I know and I told him that I don't want any food or anything, I only want a -- this is in the -- in -- in the documents, too -- a personal, like it was youn ousewise, that I -- and he gave it to me. He said he knows England and was very friendly and he gave it to me and then I got my passport in French - - French, English and Russian, not a German word was in it. I am sorry they took it from me, they should -- I should not have given it to them. The Germans took it then from me when I got a German passport. And I'm -- I'm sorry I haven't got it any more. And when my -- my -- I wrote to my sister that I'm coming. I had a visitor permit for two months and this is normal. And in England you cannot change a permit easily. It's not changed. And this -- and when I came to England then with my daughter, without luggage, because I didn't take anything. I had eve -- I had not even a chane -- a dress to change. My brother-in-law was shocked that I am a refugee and cannot go -- he wanted me -- as -- a-actually his mother and his -- has said he should not invite -- they should not invite me and they have sent me this visitor permit and it was a -- a very,

very big shock for them and he wanted me -- as 0 -- he said a-at first I am a liar, because I didn't write that -- how can I write that I am f-fleeing? I am a liar, a je -- an Englishman would never lie. This was -- yeah, he said it to me. An Englishman would never lie and I was an -- and so it was -- it was hell to be there, hell -- with my -- my sister said to me, you break up my marriage.

And was -- was a -- whats -- it was really not -- not overdone, it was true, because they were so much against me, because I was a refugee. I was welcome for two months as a -- as a guest, but they didn't want me as a refugee and I suppose his parents had said -- were afraid they have to look after me or help me or something. I thought they were -- they were -- it was hell. And then -

Q: This is -- this is Hansie?

A: Hansie, yes.

Q: Who left Palestine?

A: Yes.

Q: To go to [indecipherable]

A: Who -- who -- yes, she married him in -- in the arm -- in the army in Rome. And she -- I think they never wanted him to marry a Jew. It was his family and he was -- was be -- getting -- he was at law school to become a solicitor. And he was living on what he got as -- from the army, but this was not enough, the parents gave them every -- gave them the money, as he was studying.

And they were living in a house which belonged to -- to his parents. As 0 -- I was get -- I was not a welcome guest. And he wrote to the -- to -- to the Home Office, they sh -- they should deport me, yes. But they didn't. And -- and -- an MP -- a labor MP it was, who happened -- I don't know how, about my story. And I was -- I came then in touch with the foreign people, I was then staying with a cousin of mine and I came -- I don't know any more, how it all came about, I

came then in touch with a Dr. Davis a -- a -- a -- a late doctor, in Stamford Hill and this -- this labor MP, the letter I got is in the documents, he wrote to me when -- when she has difficulty with me to get the working -- is very difficult to chern -- to -- to change a visitor permit into a working permit, when -- if she has difficulties, they should turn to him. He would do it. And according -- when I showed that letter to the police in Piccadilly, those foreign police, I got some per-permission to work -- a working permission. And I was then working with -- staying with this doctor and I could have stayed there for years, but I was staying for months, many months and she aray -- Angela went there to school in -- and she [indecipherable], she was anti-doctor and she went into her bed in the morning, Angela and she had no social life at all, only family life. She was living with her mother. And the reason for me to leave was that I didn't hear an English word. I couldn't stay forever. She spoke Yiddish with her mother and her mother couldn't speak a word of English, they were from Romania. Her wather was one of the directors of Sch-Schtettna, you know this firm? This is a publicating firm, I think, a big one. And he was a director. And -- but I didn't meet -- and a brother of her had a hat factory in Manchester. And so I -- and I was treated there very nicely. I didn't want -- as a maid, I didn't want to go in when she had visitor, but she said when I don't go in, she stays with me in the kitchen -- the doctor. And so I was really very nicely treated in that house. And -- but then in the end I decided I have to f-find a way to -- to -- to do some Eng] -- learn some English. And I put an advertisement in the Times, as I made it out to -- after I saw advertisement, I don't know it was the Times or the Telegraph.

And a -- a -- a lady answered and it was -- the lady -- had more answers, but I couldn't -- some people ha -- were living abroa -- outside, where there was no school nearby. I couldn't go to a place where there was no school. And one lady -- I had an interview, it was the sister-in-law of Antony Eden. It was the wife of Sir Timothy Eden. And she had a school in England and --

Idlan, and a school in Southampton. And she wanted me -- she was an Austrian and she of course expected that every Austrian is a perfect cook and she wanted me to cook for her school in Southampton. And there were 24 pupils in the school and I accepted. Not that I was a cook, but I had a cookery book in Austrian for -- what a -- somebody gave me and you wouldn't believe it, but they liked my cooking, because the girls had never eaten -- I su -- I suppose an Austrian would have thrown me out nex-next day, but they -- but these girls in the school had never eaten my cook -- Austrian cooking and they liked it. The kinerl and all this what I'd -- I -- I so -- I started se -- very exactly the cookery book, every day and it was successful. I was there for quite a time, I don't know any more how long. Angela was taken into the school and was exactly treated, we -- like any other girl, there was no difference. They were very -- she -- I bought the uniform for her and she was bathed and washed by the matron. And the matron put her to bed, as a -- I must say, I -- there were no difference at all to any other girl in the school, she was -- when she was there. And in the end, I went back to -- to London. I was very lonely, of course and her - - her -- s-son of them, who was at that time a young man, he came from Eden and he was -- he was living there. Now he is an MP in -- in the House of Parliament and the kitchen maid what they had, was a Hungarian Baroness at that time, because they were the Russians and she came to London and was a 19 year old girl. She was working there and she was [indecipherable] a Hungarian Baron -- aristocrat. And so -- in any case, then I went back to London with Angela and I went -- I could give -- I -- I -- I was working -- living in the house. This was the daughter of the British am-ambassador in Norway. But they were very -- they had a house in Kensington.

[had one s-sh -- I had only working permission for a housemaid. I couldn't do anything else.

And she engaged me as housemaid, but she didn't pay me. They were -- they hadn't any money,

actually. He was studying at -- architecture, a young couple and I work -- went out to work, I worked illegal. People who -- who did surgical belts engaged me.

Q: Who did what?

A: Surgical belts.

Q: Sur -- oh.

A: This is for people who have operations. They made -- and I came to that place and she said, you ha -- toos -- to teach me s -- s -- with electric machine, to sew. And when I saw what she did, I said to her I can do the same what she did, she --and then I did the cutting out and was in charge of the -- of -- of the room, because at that time, the health service was new in England and you can only get the working permission if they haven't got any Englishmen to do the work, or English women. And I was in -- and the cert -- in this business. The ba -- both was a Viennese. In this business they didn't have workers, because it was so new, the health service. And so I got the working permission. When I got the working permission on -- on -- in the labor exchange, she was co -- ringing up other labor exchanges at first, if they have somebody for the job, but they didn't. And so I got the working permission there. I did send the cutting out and fitting for surgical belts and I went into hospitals to measure people and had -- there were eight people sewing these belts. And this I did for years, for many years there in -- in that job.

Q: Did you get back to having a relationship with your sister, Hansie?

A: No, I haven't heard from her for -- for years [inaudible]

Q: Really?

A: Yeah. I had a very loose -- sometime -- once -- as a -- actually, it was agreement that Angela stays with her until the school starts, because there was no school at that time and suddenly she rang me up, I must take Angela away at once from her, because her husband has an examination

at the law school and when he doesn't pass, he will say Angela -- it's Angela's fault that he doesn't. Yeah, i-it -- this was -- he was horrible. And so I told it to the doctor and she said, "Take it, she can come before the school starts."

Q: And Mimi?

A: Mimi was in Israel.

Q: And s -- and -- how --

A: I wanted actually, when I came to -- at first to go to Israel, but I went to the embassy and at that time you did need an invitation. The state was only half a year old, you did need an invitation. So I sent a telegram to Mimi, she should send me the invitation, but she didn't answer.

She didn't want -- she was always jealous of me and she didn't want me in Israel. And she didn't send me the invitation so I could go. Later on, years later, I was very lonely. M-My life in Israel would have been easier, because I wouldn't -- I would have joined a kibbutz and I would not have been so lonely, with no English and bound with -- in the job, with a child. You couldn't go out anywhere. I would not -- and later on, once Angela was at school and was on holiday, I thought I go to Israel in a fortnight whe -- when she is in England in -- on holiday in the summer.

And I wrote my sister that I want to come. And her answer was not, "I'm looking forward to see you." Her answer was, "Don't give up your job." And so she was afraid now, I don't know what Hansie has written -- that | would come and be in -- something -- so I didn't go. This was the end of my visit, I didn't go. I didn't see her. And -- and so I -- I was staying in -- in London and was working at -- Angela was -- it was a difficulty where to live. She was in different school, in four different school and in England at that time, I don't know if you know, they made the 11 plus.

This was with 11 -- at the age of 11, every child had to make an exam. If they get -- if they are ready for grammar school. And she was in four different schools and she -- and in the end she

was in the Solomon Wolfser school and there were 28 pupils and only four passed the exam. And she was one of the four. When she rang me up in my business, she passed, I couldn't believe it. I rang up at first somebody else if it's true that she passed. And then I left everything and -- and so she could go to grammar school. She want -- won a -- a scholarship for a grammar school and she was taken by -- by the Burlington School. This is a very old school with a good name and it was -- this is where she told -- she had an interview where she told she sees her father every two years. And the headmistress -- in when I had the interview, she ask me what -- what it means. So I told her I'm divorced, she didn't know that I'm divorced, no. She didn't -- when I told her -- she was eleven [indecipherable] I must tell that I'm divorced. When I told her, she said, "It can't be. You love each other." But she didn't know. She was brought up like in a complete family, I didn't want her to know. But then she -- and then she was [indecipherable] was in Burlington school and -- until I got married and then I may -- I moved -- she moved to a different school, to Copedale in Edgeware.

Q: And you married Fritz Beer?

A: Fred Beer, in -- on the 24th of March, 1957.

Q: And he -- he was due -- he comes from Vienna?

A: Yeah, he comes from Vienna, he wa -- he comes -- his mother was deported -- was deported to Theresienstadt and died in the -- in -- in the Holocaust, as well.

Q: You didn't know him in Vienna?

A: No. But he did know some of my family.

Q: He did?

A: Yes. But not me and not my parents.

Q: And that was a good relationship for you and for Angela?

A: Yeah, and I ask Angela --

Q: When he proposed to you?

A: Yeah, when he proposed to me, I ask Angela.

Q: And what did she say?

A: Yes. She agreed, you see? Now, because she was my first obligation, I couldn't do that without asking her. And it was -- she then -- she was in Copdory and she made -- actually I'm -- I sent her after the O levels in an academic exchange to Germany. She made A level in Germany, that she should learn German properly, because she couldn't speak German properly and this is where she met her future husband. I didn't send her that she gets married there, but he -- at the school party and she was there at school, that she was then living with her father for six months, I want her to know him and she went there to school and at a school party she met him. And they invited her always again -- again -- again to come and so it happened that she married. One day she came home from Winster and said, "I am engaged." She didn't ask me, she said, "I am engaged to be married." And so it came that she got married to a German. And she won then a scholarship to the Royal College of Art. This is a -- a special place in -- in London. When she -- when she applied for it, I di-didn't think that she could win, but she did.

Q: What was it like for her to meet her father and spent six -- she was 16 years old, yes?

A: Yes. He was very, very keen to meet her. He wrote me that he will look after her. But he was, I suppose, brutal to her, because he -- he -- he -- as 0 -- I don't know why -- I don't know why, but he smacked her once so much that she had to have an oper -- that she still is not able to 0 -- to open her mouth properly. She was -- she had an operation.

Q: Really?

A: Yes. She was injured, but he is a str -- a strong -- a strong man and he smacked her as 0 -- she did not do what she -- what he wants. I don't know, I wasn't there, I don't know.

Q: Did she leave immediately after that happened or she stayed?

A: No, she -- I -- I don't know when it happened, exactly. She came home as it was -- as it was agreed on.

Q: Did she know who he was then? I mean, I know who -- she knew that he was her father.

A: Yeah.

Q: But did she know the history then of what had happened to you?

A: No, she didn't know. No, she -- she came -- he -- I don't know how much he told her, I don't know. And so -- she didn't know anything, only that he is her father.

Q: And you very consciously, didn't tell her?

A: Yeah, I didn't. No, she had enough with losing every -- I didn't want to add something. So she -- she didn't know that it's a broken family, I didn't want to add -- to add more to -- more trouble than she already had to -- to put up with.

Q: So when did she find out? When were you able to talk with each other about what it was that happened to you?

A: What had happened about -- about the Holocaust [indecipherable] we didn't talk about it at all, not much. I don't -- I -- I -- I can't say that. I didn't --

Q: But at some point you show her the documents [indecipherable]

A: Very [indecipherable] years later.

Q: Years later?

A: Yes. I don't know exactly when it was. And consciously, to sit down and talk to her, I never did, no. It came slowly. But I didn't -- I don't -- didn't wan -- I wanted her -- sh-she had enough

to put up with, I wanted her to grow up as a normal, English girl, not -- at the beginning she mixed up Austria and Australia. I know she did mix it up. And -- and it was -- you -- you don't want -- so she went to school and grew up and she grew up as an English -- I s -- I didn't speak English to her, didn't want her to get my accent.

Q: So what did you speak to her, German?

A: German. And she answered in English. And when she was cheeky, I didn't understand it in any case, this was a positive --

Q: It was positive for her.

A: Yeah.

Q: Did -- did you talk with -- with Fritz Beer about your past or did you not talk with him either, I mean --

A: No, we -- we didn't know each other, that both his mother, he -- he came from Prague [indecipherable] last and he was with one of the last planes he came and he actually waited f-for mother's birthday. As long as he could -- he was a mother's boy. He got married only after his mother was died -- was -- was away. He got -- very late he married. He was 11 years older than I -- than I am.

Q: Were you his first marriage or his second?

A: No, I was his second. He was a widower, too. His first wife died of a heart failure and he was two years a widow. And then I -- I -- when I met him. And I -- I didn't know and so he tried to get his mother ous, but he -- it didn't work and he had lost him mother in the Holocaust and I had lost my mother. But then, people didn't talk about it then, we didn't talk. Nobody did talk about it, it was accepted, it was a fact and -- but we -- we didn't talk about it much.

Q: Do you wish you had?

A: I don't know. I don't know.

Q: And what is it like for you now? Now you're talking about it so much, did that come [indecipherable]

A: Yeah, it came so -- in -- in -- it is now sometimes -- many things come up now, to me and sometimes disturbing. I cannot so easily concentrate on other things, even on books or something, because it comes i-in tre -- in between.

Q: And it didn't come in between so much before?

A: No, no, no. He had a busine -- he was a businessman. He was a -- a wholesaler in this -- these things and in j-jewelry. But not -- not expensive jewelry, in -- and h -- he was sent to Australia.

This was before his first marriage, even, as an enemy alien, fron -- from England and he came back after the war.

Q: And so you lived together for how long?

A: For 30 -- more than th -- from "47 to "84, when he died.

Q: No, "57, I think you mean.

A: "57 --

Q: "57 until "84.

A: "57 to "84, yes.

Q: So, that's a long time.

A: He was very, very ill. He had [indecipherable] there were -- he was very, very ill. He was a heavy smoker and he -- from this smoking he was very, very ill. I was -- and then he had a -- in the dam, a hole. He had -- for six months, he had a hole here, because he had a dam operation.

And so he was -- had -- had -- was very, very ill.

Q: But your daughter felt as -- he was her father?

A: Yes, yes.

Q: So this was very important for her?

A: Yes. I know -- when he was so ill, I didn't want her to go to see him, because I had tell -- told him stories. I didn't want that he knows that he's so ill. I didn't -- I -- I -- I said to -- it was a- about Christmas time and I could go into the hospital at any time, because he was on the danger list. I didn't want him to know that, that he's on the danger list. I said always, I -- I sneaked in to the hospital, because they are pre-preparing for Christmas. And I didn't want that Angela would -- me -- would -- would to -- take -- talk silly things. So I left her and then she was -- as 0 -- stricken, she was crying. I -- I don't want her to see her father. She was very, very upset. But for me it was a reason. I didn't want her to -- to say something what make him think of it. But he was very, very ill.

Q: And then, when he died, you decided to change your life?

A: No, I had to. I had to. I was living in the house with -- three bedroom house with three double bedrooms, a garden in front and what should I do in that house? And I had the feeling -- I couldn't sit in the sitting room after -- after he was dead, without him. You live in the sitting room and to sit alone, it was terrible. I never went into -- I never went -- looked at television and went into the sitting room and then I decide -- as I had to -- to sell the house, in any case. It did need a time until it got the probate. It was -- was all in his name. A year I did need to get the probate. And then I decided that -- to give up the house. And now where to go was the problem.

And then, I so -- I could -- cannot drive a car and London was a difficult place to be -- Angela was not living in London at that time and so I went to Israel, as -- I found that is the natural place for me. And I was ha-half -- and I li -- I wanted to live in a smaller place, as I cannot drive a car, where I can walk to some -- where I can walk. And in -- in London, I was all -- when I went to

see somebody, was an hour on the underground. When -- do you know London? Yeah, then you do, that you can imagine, | -- I was from Edgeware, this is in the north. I was always on the underground. And then I gave up to meet somebody, because of the journey. And so I wanted to live in a small place. I hoped -- I was afraid of the language and I hoped I will learn it, as a -- at the beginning I was better, but I lost a little since I have cable television. I cannot make up my mind to -- to put it off, the English and to listen to the Hebrew, where I understand only partly.

And this is the death of my Hebrew, the -- the cable television.

Q: The cable.

A: What? Can you imagine?

Q: [indecipherable]

A: Then I -- I --

Q: Through your third marriage, did you keep -- you kept in touch with Peppy until he died?

A: W-With my -- with my second -- with my second, my -- my -- I can't --

Q: I mean your second.

A: I -- so, yeah. I -- no, I -- I was not in regular contact, but when I was in Vienna, I visited him.

He didn't know -- he got to know my husband and -- and -- but I wasn't -- and I did know his wife, but it was not a regular -- not anything as it was before, not anything.

Q: But when did you get the letters that you had written to him? It was after he married?

A: Yeah, yes, h-he was a -- yes, it -- he was already mar -- I didn't go so early to -- to Vienna again and I -- he was already married and then I ask him to -- to have it back.

Q: And why did you ask him?

A: I tell you, I di-didn't want that his wife is reading my love letters. This was the reason, not -- not -- no other reason and I said -- and he didn -- he said he wants to keep them so long he -- as

long as he's alive. Noneday I mention when he had something happen to him, she would put it in the mill -- millima when she sees -- when she sees what that is.

Q: So if he had not gotten married, we never would -- we might not have these letters.

A: Yeah, may [indecipherable]. I don't know. What have -- would have -- but you can imagine that I felt that this part of my life is now in his ha -- ha -- in -- in her hands, in the end. And so, this was the reason, I didn't think of the histor -- historical value at that time. And so -- and then he gave it to me and I -- I took it home and put it in a drawer and didn't talk about it.

Q: Did you look at them?

A: No.

Q: No.

A: No, I di -- I do -- I know what is in. I didn't look at them at all.

Q: And what year? Do you remember approximately what year you got them?

A: No, I didn -- I -- I don't know -- as -- it happened then, when I -- when I sold the house and when I -- and I had some -- wh-when did I give? I think I had some in Israel and then I was thinking what happens -- I can -- I -- I'm e -- not immortal, I noticed. And so, if somebody ha- happened to me, they would throw these letters away, too. In German, in small, you see how small the papers in [indecipherable] who -- whoever will read that. And then I gave it to Angela.

I thought this is the only place -- and so she may be interested one day. And so it came. She put it in a safe at first and -- and -- and so it came, I gave it to her -- as I gave her some of my jewelry.

I gave her not only that ac -- she had -- has my jewelry as well. I gave it to her.

Q: And did she then read these letters?

A: What?

Q: Did she read them?

A: No.

Q: No.

A: No, because she -- because they are in German.

Q: Oh.

A: She -- she doesn't read German books. She reads the German books in English translations, what I found horrible. She speaks --

Q: But she speaks fluent?

A: Fluent, yes, she has teetoed so long, but she is -- so a German book, when you give her, it's like poison. She doesn't -- she reads the German books in -- in English translation.

Q: But not because -- she's able to, but she doesn't to?

A: Yes, she doesn't want -- she finds the s-sentences are too long, the words are not -- not what she wants and so she just hates it. And I find it horrible, but what can I do? And she would not -- she is not one who know -- who reads such small print and handwritten print, no. Even Thomas Mann she read in -- i-in -- she's a very avid reader, but in English translations. I -- as -- this is -- can't help it, this is outside my under -- I read German books, I wouldn't read it in English translation, wouldn't touch it -- I wouldn't -- when I read the German book and -- even French I read in the -- I -- I was reading French, now I'm not -- I was even in England still reading French. I wrote -- I wrote -- Sartre and this book. But in -- in the original, yes, I wrote many books in -- in the French original, but never in translation.

Q: Edith, is there anything more that you would like to say that I -- I haven't asked you or you would like to say to the world that will be watching this interview whenever they wish?

A: What I want to say -- I want to say that they should learn from the Holocaust. The wells of a - - of human beings. The -- the worse of human beings and live in a way that it doesn't -- recut -- I

have -- when I was working in -- we had [indecipherable] when I was working the surgical belt business, the boss came to me and ask me if he -- it -- it was difficult to get in -- to get people. If he -- if I allow him to unga -- engage a Jamaican -- a color -- a Negro. Of course I said yes, I would not take it, I said yes. And we had then a Jamaican sewer. And one of the girls was an Irish girl and something disappeared once in the sho -- in -- in this work room and everybody was looking at the Jamaican, everybody. I have -- when -- it was that she was li -- like living -- everybody as so the Jamai -- and in real, we -- as it was found out later, it was not something very -- of high value, but it -- it -- has something disappeared and it came out that the Irish girl who had taken it. Nobody thought -- looked at an English girl and everybod -- this is a racial prejudice -- was looking at the Jamaican girl, who didn't have taken it. And she had not a comfortable living at -- and working at that time and I have learned it in -- in that way, what it means to be prejudice -- what prejudice means.

Q: Well, I thank you very much for all your time. And for your letters and all the documents.

Thank you [indecipherable].

A: I thought maybe they are of any use for the future. This is my only wish.

Q: I'm sure they will. Thank you.

Q2: Okay, who is this please?

A: Clotilde Hahn.

Q: And who is she?

A: She is my mother.

Q: Okay.

A: Wisna in Russia and when he came back, he escaped. In Austria, he was taken to an officer at once and that way he came back. And the officer was his brother. He was taken.

Q2: In this picture, which is your father?

A: On the -- how should I say? On the left.

Q2: The very left?

A: The first from the left, yes.

Q2: Oh, dear.

Q: And what's -- what was his name?

A: Leopold. His father -- ma -- his name was Leopold. One brother of his survived the Holocaust, because he was married to an Gentile.

Q2: Okay, who's this, please?

A: This is Dr. Josef Rosenfeld, my boyfriend.

Q: Peppy.

A: Peppy, yes, Pep -- we -- I called him Peppy.

Q2: Do you know when this picture might have been taken, what year?

A:I -- no, I don't know, I can't say. He had a -- was bald already, at the age of 20. Yes.

Q2: Now, this is?

A: This is the kangkart, the -- what it was called, kant -- identity card. Kangkart in German.

Q2: And this one?

A: Let's see [indecipherable] that is -- I don't see. I see that is an identity card, but I don't know exactly -- was from the -- the passport photograph.

Q: Okay, can you just -- Q2: 1937.

Q: 1937, 1939?

Q2: 1939.

Q: [indecipherable]

A: "39.

Q2: Beg pardon, "39.

A: Flaishna.

Q: One second.

Q2: Go ahead.

A: Flaishna, I think was her name.

Q: Her first name?

A: Flaishna, the second name. Ulreekai. I know Ula.

Q2: And this picture was taken where?

A: In Osterberg in front of our -- of the place where we lived. This are -- this is a typical field for asparagus. This had -- we had to -- must be high and the asparagus, when he grew, i-is -- is not green, is white.

Q2: And who took this photo?

A: I took it, I suppose.

Q2: And what about this one?

A: This is the -- the younger one was a boy who worked there and the other one is a man who worked there and these two in front with -- with the scarfs are workers, but I don't know the name of -- I don't -- I've forgotten the name of the workers. This was in Osterberg, too. When we -- Q2: Okay.

A: This is working -- as we were working in this barglerfeld, we had -- she is cutting sparkai on that picture. This is -- she has to -- to make a hole into the earth and cut the sparkai so -- such --

about that size under s -- under the top. This is -- was -- in front of our what they called casserna.

This was a place where we have been living and in front there was this -- we -- where we got water. I told you, it was more difficult there to have water for everything than it was Asherslaben. And here again, these are workers from the feld -- on the feld.

Q: So, is this boat -- is this part of the same building?

A: This was a building where we were -- in this building there were four rooms. This was in -- outside -- this was in the field, this was built for workers, for -- for -- only for workers. There was nothing around, only field and this was in middle of the field and there were one, two, four rooms.

Q: And the -- and the -- and the one over here, on the left --

A: I don't know --

Q: That's a different building, do you remember that building?

A: Yeah, this was on the fiel -- in the fields as well. But this was the main building, where we were living.

Q: The one on the [indecipherable]

A: No, it was one, two --

Q: The brick building.

A: Six building -- six rooms, I think. This was made for foreign emigration workers, because there were always workers for the harvest taken.

Q2: And the lady on the right?

A: The lady on the right is Mrs. Needelhile, who had the shop in the Mooringassa. Maria Needelhile.

Q: And she's the one who helped you get to --

A: Yes.

Q: Johann Platner?

A: Yes.

Q2: And the other photo?

A: And the other one is Crystal Denner, who gave me her name and who helped me and saved me.

Q: And she's the one who was honored by Yad Vashem?

A: Yes, she's the one who was honored by Yad Vashem.

Q: Okay.

Q2: This next [indecipherable] on the right?

A: This is Werner Fetter. And -- he has, as it happened, he was blind on the one eye. This may be the reason why he was not drafted earlier in the army. He had, before I met him, an motor accident, on a motor bike. And you couldn't see, but the nerve had no connection with the brain.

You didn't see that he -- and he was allowed to drive a car, that he is blind on one eye.

Q2: And who's this on the right?

A: On the -- this is me, with the best baby in the world.

Q2: Do you know when this was taken -- End of Tape Six, Side A Beginning Tape Six, Side B

Q2: And the other photo?

A: And the other one is Crystal Denner, who gave me her name and who helped me and saved me.

Q: And she's the one who was honored by Yad Vashem?

A: Yes, she's the one who was honored by Yad Vashem.

Q: Okay.

Q2: This next on the right?

A: This is Werner Fetter. And -- he has, as it happened, he was blind on the one eye. This may be the reason why he was not drafted earlier in the army. He had, before I met him, a motor accident, on a motor bike. And you couldn't see, but the nerve had no connection with the brain.

You didn't see that he and he was allowed to drive a car, that he is blind on one eye.

Q2: And who's this on the right?

A: This is me, with the best baby in the world.

Q2: Do you know when this was taken perhaps? How old is she there?

A: 1-- only a few months.

Q: It's your baby.

A: Hm?

Q: Your baby.

A: My baby, yes, it's my baby.

Q2: And who's this?

A: This is Edith Hahn.

Q: And who's this?

A: Edith Hahn.

Q: Do you have any idea how old you were, about?

A: No. According to the dress, it seems aft -- it seems to be my black dress when my father died.

Q: Oh.

A: According to the dress. So it ma -- must have been "36 or "37.

Q2: Any idea about the picture on the right, what --when that was taken?

A: This, no. I think -- I think it may be after the war. This too.

Q: Was this after war? [indecipherable]

A: I think it was both after the war.

Q2: When was this taken?

A: 1940 Christmas. And I had made -- I -- this was taken because I did not know what to buy Peppy for Christmas. It was already war time. And so I thought, I'll have a photo taken of -- and this was my -- my Christmas present for him, 1940. He had it on his desk -- years, for years.

Q: Okay.

Q2: Great shot.

Q: First, Pll take you to your hotel.

End of Tape Six, Side B

Conclusion of Interview.