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SAUL INGBER October 30, 1990

Q: Would you tell me your, your full name please?

A: My name is Isaul , Saul, English. I'm born in a small town in Romania that's called Masiv (ph). There...there I was, you know, going to cheder and and nothing and and the whole town they had one school, you know. My parents were , they called them

, and I had uh a few brothers and a few sisters and was taken away the end of 1939...

Q: Let's...let's let's not not get to 1939...tell me, tell me...not just yet, OK?. I'd like to know a little bit more about your childhood. Tell me about your father. What did he do? What was his work?

A: My father what I do remember, he used to have uh horses and a wagon and he used to, you know, transport wood, logs and uh how you call it...in the , you know...what we was talking before and uh and from there it was like a factory and they took to the union stations uh logs, you know, and they transferred...transported what I remember his living.

And uh my mother was a house...housewife. And she take care of the children and uh in my memory I've never had grandparent what I remember. Uh my mother had a brother in my town and she had a...we had uh relatives in town but they don't survive too many

concentration camps, after the war, the Holocaust and uh (cough) after the...and not after...a long time that I used to know and I went to cheder...

Q: Tell...tell...tell...look look at me... TECHNICAL CONVERSATION ...tell me...tell me about cheder. What...why did you go there to cheder in the first place?

A: A cheder, you know, that's what how the Jewish education, you know, and I remember next door to us, we used to meet over there. We had a rabbi and we uh we had several young children, just boys...not girls...and we learned . We learned, you know, and and uh the Jewish quotations like . We we followed them their their steps and uh then later when the , you know, when I were around twelve, thirteen, I went to learn uh uh uh to be a tailor. I went to be a...to learn a trade, and I was learning a trade in the town and uh then when L...

Q: Tell us about that. Tell us...tell us...Saul, can you just just back up a little bit? You told me before...before we talked about you being a tailor, you told me that your family was religious.

A: Yeah. My family were...yeah...my family were religious. My father used to wear Saturday...Saturday's clothes. He had...he weared uh cotton and uh a girdle, uh you know, over the cotton, you know, and he wear a , you know. He wear...you know...he weared not just not at home but in the home of mine friends and the home of our neighbors and uh usually most in the main street is all Jewish people lived and we had some Gentiles on the side and some Gentile...we goed out together and uh we have in the town very...we lived like __ and and there is no more hate, but I couldn't remember too many years...maybe they had before or after or whatever, and then so my older brothers went the same thing and and cheder and then it's what I remember, come into the years in 19...1939, you know, my uh brother remaining...there come a time when in every household had to go to work, you know, to do some work and and in my home I was chosen by my family that I should go. When I went there to work Thad ___, you know, and I was taken away from the home and and never return. I do remember one time when they told us we will go away, far away from the home and uh when they took me away, my mother went after me but uh , you know, when they took me away, and she...the only way ofher__ I should try to survive, not toeat___. That's mean, you know, but we don't have no choice. And the week when J arrived there to the where they took me, this place were in where they took me were Kaisek (ph). That's...they took me for remaining to Hungary because the Hungarian...

Q: Why...why were they rounding you up and why were they taking you?

A: Because they...I think they they took not just me. They took all the young, young guys of the age I think. They took, you know, to a certain age they took them to labor. When we arrived up there in Kaisek and we were for a certain time in Kaisek and then the law come out the Jewish people had to wear yellow ribbons around their left hand and uh the...over there when we arrived, they gave us, you know, a certain hat. The Hungarian...the Hungarian of the hat and the yellow band and from there they took me to different labors...in Hungarian first and...

Q: Tell us, tell us, tell us what what...when you were in this labor camp, in the first labor camp...let's slow down a little bit and tell us what that labor camp was like and what did you do there.

A: In this labor camp where the first time that they took us, they cleaned us certain way and then they took us and uh we build bridges. We, you know...they had little uh and wagons and we we digged the ground and we carried from one place in another, another place the ground, and then we worked and and and they made roads. You know, some of them not stones to make it pieces...you know, gravel, and some uh some some carried uh wheelbarrows with the ground, you know, that we all do with wheelbarrows...carrying the ground from one place to another to to make it level and from there we went uh in another place and then they start start to transfer us in different places, always labor camp, labor...hard labor. We always worked, you know, la...such a labor what uh all the old ones _, you know...and and we...they took us and and the _ people, hundred people in in one transport, and we all...we worked where they had bombed before in in Hungarian, you know, in uh and we tried to to straighten out, you know, different and union stations, but wagons what they they had or what places the bombs fall. We tried to uh around them and then in the dark, transferred us to Czechoslovakia and the same day we we worked and and and in fields. We cut wood and we we...you know, they made...we made roads. They don't have roads, you know, for the Hungarian or for the German military and the Hungarian military, so we...they...we had to cut wood and making roads up in the woods and and so we always continue go farther from town to town. We only would stay in one place for a certain amount of time and so long we are arrived to Czechoslovakia and Czechoslovakia and we stayed in towns, also doing the same thing, mostly always doing the same...making ...1 don't know how to explain it exactly in English, but means and in there they took us...

Q: What was...what was it like. What...what...let's let's...if we can...tell me, Saul, what was the work like? What were you...did you...was the work easy? Was the work hard? Did you get enough food?

A: You know, the work was...the...it was...the each one had to dig so much and and and the...you had to make your order what they have _...let's assume they give a yard to dig out. It must be for so long and so wide and so deep and___ between people, between us... it were digging people, you know, children, stronger children what they finished much faster. They give a hand to other, because other maybe were beaten up or we had to stay longer to finish your work, and then you had to st...stay longer. You were punished. You were beaten. You were uh tortured. You were all kinds of different things were done to you. And then from then we were transferred by wagon, by by foot, wagon, sometimes by train, and so...so long we we arrived to Poland, by the border by Poland wherever you had, and you know, taking with you from Hungary, when we arrived at the border, the ...that mean the the the police, the border police of the Hungarian, says to us, you know, and they took it away from...everything what we had. _s when somebody had good shoes or good boots, they would take away and give us rags and good clothes and they beat us. From there we went to Poland and in Poland we done the same identical work for the Germans. There the Germans took it over. The Hungarians uh they...we were assigned to the Hungarians but we had to do what the Germans wanted we should do. We had worked hard labor and again the same...we worked with cement making, you know, again against uh tanks...tanks uh...monument. We did tank. We worked in different different things, and we were there for __ long time and then we were sent to the Russians for a while. We...when Russians come forward and the Germans could not bring it...they could not bring the food. We had our own houses but we used to ...1 don't remember at one time and that were in Poland what the...you know, and uh but I don't remember when they they transferred us again to Czechoslovakia...

Q: Saul, were you still...were you with the Russians?

A: With the...with the...no. We wasn't with the Rus...always with the Hungarians and with the German. We never been with the Russians. We only been...because I won't and the Hungarians didn't get and the Russians didn't...and the German German regime, you know, made the Hungarians. I never been under the Russians. But the Russians, you know, they was talking like the Russians come forward and forward, so __ but backing off, backing off to the back to Czechoslovakia, to Hungary, to Slovak, you know. We always stopped and worked hard labor, hard labor. And uh so long we get in a place...we...they transferred us I think in 1944...uh 1944 they transferred us. They transferred us to...they load us in in in wagons and they brought us to Mauthausen the first time in the camps. And in the camps, when I were in the camps when...I were...when we arrived in the camps, we had to leave everything in, you know, and we walked about uh three or four miles from where the...maybe longer and uh we walked. We walked in the camps in Maut...to Mauthausen, a hundred people there. I think that's were the last transport, where they brought Hungarian Jewish people to Mauthausen, and we have seen there, you know, when we got out and stand in line, we have seen a lot of dead people where you come in to go in, they were already transferred from one place to another for weeks and weeks and weeks, and and then they choose some people to help uh take them to gather, to gather the clothes and what was left over in the wagons, and I got one of the two uh choiced (ph), and I helped just clean up the the wagons and then we put everythings in such a a what people in the two wheels like wagons but we...they...instead horses, we pulled it into the lager and the camps closing with the what you have bringed back from from Hungary where they taking them in the wagons, and then when I arrived in Mauthausen, when I arrived in Mauthausen...I don't remember exactly the time...I have seen and we looked in in in the lager, I've seen in one side woman and one side men. And everybody was naked and then they cut us of the hair and they leaved...they leaved a line in the head, they leaved a line in the head...is like to be recognized, you know. We were prisoners. Uh we were con...uh you know, camp people. There were when I was selected and not just me...all the people what there is...we went to the line in the names and and it was long tables, and you been going through. They asked you how you feel and what what national...what you're doing and how strong we are, and down to the end by the table they had had people standing to put me on a band, a band on my hand, and they sewed it uh...it were a little tin tin metal and it had a number, and uh from there they took us in a ina block, you know, and from this block we went and they took off the clothes what we had and and we went in the against I think disease and then they assigned us in a block and I were assigned to the block in in Mauthausen, Block Thirty or Thirty-One. I could not remember exactly the the number. And then we were there for a week, two or two weeks. From there they because...

Q: What did you do in Mauthausen?

A: In Mauthausen, I have not done nothing over...they took us to Gusen (ph), and they took about four hundred people because it were overfulled, Mauthausen. They put...it's not far...we we walked about four hundred people to another camp. The camp were Gusen and from Gusen I understand (ph) in Gusen the...there we went those to to work in bomb (ph) holes but they bombed already, and uh they took...one time I were located...they took me, you know, working for a farmer and uh I was working with...they took thirty people. They were all not just Jewish people. They...we were...and we were French, I think then it was between us and it was remaining people, the Hungarian people, and we were a couple of Jewish people. And all military uh German...he took us to him and asked, you know, ..and it's like a farm and when we arrived with the old soldier, a German soldier, in a in an automobile, when we arrived up there, he gave us to them and there sat us and then we had working there for a couple of weeks and we were, you know, and they took up from the land, and we helped taking up and then the German...

Q: I don't understand...

A: We...they had uh to clean off the the land. Over there...about thirty people. And when we were finished...over there we don't uh and they had , alot of , and we had to take it off in the ground and and that's all in in Germany, and and there we are...we we got paid. They give us uh food. They gave us cigarettes, you know...not cigarette...package of tobacco uh what I have never smoked and I bought it back to the camp so what they took it away and uh and we...the couple weeks uh, you know, they feed us good and the the German what belonged the farm, he don't like...he don't get along with the military what they have sent out with with us to take care of us. They sent all German soldiers. He let them go and he took over and one night we were left open our certain house in our room, all of us. We slept in in in straw and he come in and he say when we behaved nice, he will take...we will have everything, you know, what we want.

Nobody run away. Nobody to do something harm and then we we will...he knows we are heftlingers (ph). We are prisoners. We are, you know, in in to labor, you know, hard labor uh punishment and and when he ___ when we willing to do that, he let the German go away. He done it. He give us to eat and to drink. He locked us up at nighttime and we worked all morning near another, you know...we had to work one line (ph), and sometimes two lines and three lines, and when we were finished, he...every evening we had regular meals what he cooked and he give us to eat and and after thirty days I uh...less than thirty days when he himself took us back to the camp. He took us back and uh I think to Ebensee (ph), in a different camp because the...and there in Ebensee we also went to work...we worked in different places where the hundred people they walked out in a unit and by train and some of them by trucks and sometimes not in by train and sometimes not in by trucks, to labor, hard labor. That's also were in bombing, where they bombed and we tried to clean up. On railroads I have seen mine colleagues, mine friends...that twenty people enter one one of the lines when the railroads and God forbid when somebody falls, they all fall and and there were not allowed...were not allowed to to the others to go help them pick me up. I have seen there dead people, dying and very touching human...in between us, and I falled in in a category...we we was digging...digging other other...making ..you how they say...uh trenches. And uh between us were a a German. He had a very bad habit. He were a...had a habit...he used to go and pick up somebody and take him out and beat him for no reasons. And till one time I fall...I fall in his category and working so in the he he start screaming, hey...you there, __, come here, uh you know. When I approached him, you know, and he took me on the side... , you know, on on the side of the house...we worked in the back, you know, where the bombs had falled, and we we worked...and he he put me near the near the wall, my...myself. And he come to me and he asked me, you know, in a nice way, nice talking...and then he come and he lift up chin. When he lift up my chin, he said to me in uh his voice in German ____ because I speak Yiddish I understood the German...he says where's your God, and I raised my right hand...I remember it exactly...1 raised my right hand and trace it to the sky. As soon as I lift my hand to the sky, he punched me in to my stomach. He give me such a punch because I was near the wall, I was thinking I'll faint, and and down here he lift again my chin, you know, and he asked me again, and uh again | raised my hand and I telled that's my God. I believe in Him.

And he knocked me...he knocked me again...he knocked me in the front in my nose. I have a broken nose and he knocked those...my first three teeth what I have up to today false teeth. He broke them...I took out my teeth and threw them away in the front of him, and I was bleeding very much. And the same minute, when I took out my teeth, he asked me again, .It'slikea__" in God and I say when he asked me who's your God, I say you my God. I pointed with finger and with the same hand, the right hand what I pointed to God, I pointed to him and I say you my God, and he asked me how come I'm your God. I said when you don't beat me, you're my God. So uh he stopped working and he sent me back. What what he don't...because I was bleeding and I was very in pain.

Somebody asked _, you know, I'm and he called the other guy and say, hey, come here. And he say you take his shovel (cough), and go in there...he showed him..he said to me go show him where you were with the shovel and come back and the guy left a

of water in in the side and I come back and he made me carry the water, with a little cup, tin cup, and to give to each one, you know, some because it was drinking...give them a little water, them a little water, so what he end of the day. He let me carry it down in order to make myself easier. The next day I falled in his category, again within the hundred people. When I got again and I say, because he...I mentioned as he's my God and he can help me, because before the word spread around between the Jewish people, as they, you know, a street, street, strict you know...the strict come, you know, between us we give each other the word, the pass word was strict, strict, because he had a habit to beat up lots and lots of people. I start spreading the word...when somebody between the Jewish people...he he choose...again when he asked you who's god, immediately tell.

You'll not be beaten like I was beaten, because all all the people are to go there in mine in mine in mine neighborhood, they saw when he beat me up, and they saw I was bleeding...they saw I could cry because you cannot cry because they they made you not to cry, so and then it was easier. I had a friend what we worked together for years. It happened to him the same thing...the same...he took him out. They want to take him in in in the crematory and work and and I told them when that happened, he should he should say the same words and he went, you know, and it just happened a day or two later, he were in a different group, but this guy used to go around __ groups to group, just to do this thing to beat up people. He beat them to death. And he he told me when we got back in the camp to the dorm where we used to sleep, he said Saul, you know something,

. I fall into today the same thing what you got. I say what happened. He said to me, that guy, that German, what he done to you and you told me...he he took me and I immediately told him you can't hurt me because you're my God, and I was not beaten.

You saved me. Then, when we were in the in the camp in Ebensee, we went in another place to work. In Ebensee, you know, they had built something, you know, and uh we ca...I fall in the category to carry cement. Bags of cement. I could not remember this...forty pounds, thirty-five pounds, fifty pounds...that I could not tell the the weight of the...but one thing I remember is what like _ and it had iron bands, you know, inside the chain and it's had the back what the straps in the back and and you chained up somebody behind what put up in in the...we carried what you can in the back like a baggage in the back...the cement...and what another two people and one was put on the back and the other was staying in the back not to fall up, and you carried, and I was carrying that that that that...it was ...1t were steps. You go five steps and there were a little platform, and then you had to turn to the other five steps and another five steps, and I I don't...can't look in the back who come behind me. I think when I go in the in the tenth platform, I'm going to twist around and, you know, when you twist around on the platform into the second or third steps, I'll be able to lift my my bands because I was just ____ and bones...lift up my bands, you know, to make it easier, and I don't realize as behind me is an SS man. And the SS man took his rifle and and he hit me in the left hand what my left hand up to today is broken. I have a broken hand. He broke...he broke mine bone. Mine bone is broken, and here the stitches, and here the stitches in my hand. I had a wrap. I were in the hospital that were two or three days, two days before we got freed, in in in Dachau. The dead happened. And I were laying into the block when the black brigade freed us, and uh then I was taken all Americans...the American black brigade freed us in in the camp. I was thanking then all the blacks, so when we coming in, they tookininin and they (cough)...what I remembered they took in a in the the American trucks what they had showers, and they...it's...and they they took my clothes and they bathed me and they washed me, and from there and from there they took us in a ina van witha little uh __ you know, in to...they made a hospital and from there they carry me in the hospital and they had doctors come in and looking and they had brought in I think German nurses, German doctors, and once and over the American black doctor, Dr. Brown (ph)...I don't know where where he is or whether he's still alive or not...he saved my hand and he saved my life because I don't know I fall in love to him. He used to come visit me a couple times, to today you know, and when the the hand, because I remember uh you know, when they cut my hand, you know, and they put in an iron rod and I had casts, you know, from one time for in two different positions of my hand and I think I were in the in the hospital a couple months andI__...the time when I were in the hospital used to..the Red Cross bringing in list of names, you know...who's alive, who's not, who survived, who's in other camps and who's...you you know, in different...and I had had names what I used to know the next neighbors towns. I'm from a town and I used to know our town's...one town to another were the same same kilometers, you know, far and we used to go together in in in in the time , we used to go from one town and another just visit___ trains or families, and uh when they was reading the list of...I I had the name to my town what were mine mother's brother's daughter, and that made me...make, make me go and and ask they let me go from the hospital, and I want to go home. I want to go home. Maybe I'll go find somebody...I go find somebody so we finally...it come at a time when the the...I got my papers...I got my papers, you know, and they let me out from the hospital. When they let me out from the hospital, I still had casts on my hand whether I could have more movement. There were a time I had to bend my fingers because been a long time I could not bend my fingers. It took me I think about two years till I had mine my strength I should be able to move around my hand, because I was so weak. When uh I got, I got...I tried to get home and then nobody asked me noth...nothing...the trains and nothing in in you can ride. Wherever you ride you had a DP card...I had what I got...they let me go and you showed that...nobody asked for money and nobody asked for...mine mine...I had just a feeling to go to see, to to find somebody from my family.

Q: You went from the hospital to this train?

A: From the hospital to the the train. Correct. I...after 1 got it and I got I got to uh Germany, to Austria, you know, in to Hungary, nobody and from and and from Hungary I went to Bucharest, because when riding in the train you find so many, you know, what the the...everybody tried to go look for sisters and brothers. You find so many friends in different camps and everybody talking because it was just happiness, you know, what they survived the camps and the...everybody went. They tried to see if somebody alive.

When I got in Bucharest, I arrived in the afternoon in Bucharest and by the Union Station I find somebody from my hometown that's uh him...my face saw him the first time when I got off from the train, and he said to me...his name was Libie , and he said to me, you know, Israel, you know you have a sister. I said I have a sister. He say yeah, your sister is home. She were here uh a couple weeks ago. She went home. I say how long _____ here. He say how many here...no more than six, seven weeks. Because he got free before me because I went, when I got freed in 1945 in the (cough)...I think it was May the Sth that I remember. I could not exactly...and I went to the hospital and that will take me longer to be in Germany. The others went where they had more...they were more healthy and they went home. So I took immediately the next the next train and I went home. I tried to go to Bucharest, to , from to , from to Masiv. I arrived in Masiv in the afternoon. It's no like crazy feel like here in in America or in other places, and when I arrived at the union station, Masiv was the same Masiv and and I had to walk to...I know where my sister is because I was told in Bucharest.

When I got __ town it was night time (coughing).

Q: Take your time.

A: Burnt out lights, but ___ lights. You know I'm born there, and I remembered and I got to the house. When I got to the house, I find other...another daughter, you know...one can...a neighbor's daughter, and I say , ub uh I'm told my sister lives here. You know, when she start screaming it's Israel, and your brother here. She fine. She's saved and she shaved her head and I heard with my ears, I heard that my brother Saul Israel is dead. I never had in in known he is alive. When she saw me, she cried. When I got home and I see how they lived, and I was before before their God over there to the time that I were in the hospital, I went in in camps. I went in ____ camp. I went in Feldefing (ph) camp, you know. Just...I had...I had time with the broken hand (coughing)...

Q: Saul, I don't understand. You you went to these different camps looking...

A: Looking, you know. You know, that's where (cough) when I still been in hospital, so when, you know, you don't need to pay and from Dachau to to Feldefing and to

is not so far, and here was Jewish uh, you know, in the camps, and there were the

people lived in private homes already because the and uh and I could not go home because I was there. I had the, you know...because I were in casts, therefore, you know, bended the arm. So when I went from one camp and another and the Feldafing camp and Iwentto _ and I went to . It's not not far so when I find a different living after the three months, what were left in the three weeks, people got established already in their different ways. The start making kibbutz and they uh , kibbutz in in the DP camp. YOu know, the the lagers was become a DP camp, so when I say the living is here different, we...I have seen in Masiv they feed people what they survived the war about eight girls __ my sister, and about five men, so when the the five...these people what they the war they lived in the same house in a Jewish home what I used to know the owners of the house, but the owners died in in a concentration camp and uh I see how they're doing because they made a party for me the second night or the third night and I have seen the they were uh they were accustomed to making a dance, a dance with bending the knees, and they had a napkin and and they they was dancing and singing and going around one to another and kiss each other. I say that's not a nice living what...I don't want to live this way. I say I better go back, back to Austria, to Germany, and I should be able to see a different living, because there I have seen people starting to get back in in of their own, you know, living in in in Germany before I left to go back to Romania to find my sister...1 see people, uh they they they had already made a shule (ph) and the American people brought with and you know, they start again and they start making again a Jewish, a Jewish tradition. And I got over there. I got so shocked what happened...I say that's not good. I took my sister and I asked some other guys who wants to come with me. I say it's a way because now it's free. We don't have to pay, and we had to go...I don't want to stay here and because according to the Russian- Romanian regime or because it were so early in the in the in the year what we everybody...l say we had to goto _ and from , from there we will go back to Austria, because the the living in in Germany and Austria is...the people starting living a different...without the the the dancing what I have seen going on, the living so with nobody ___ in the horrible what the homes, what what they are took over from us and we...I I went in the day time. I went through the street. I have seen where they had freedom, you know, where the the people before they took them to ghetto, they put them all in one house. It's___ in the street you can find places in the cities and___. Matter of fact in many towns, there used to be a mill where they they they grind...they making flour and I went over there. [say inthe _ house I will tell you...you know, inthe | mill...I cried like a baby. I say to my sister where she lives today in Israel...I said listen, ___, tomorrow we don't have nothing. Our parents don't leave nothing. We have to go away. So she took my word. I took her and we went tos and when we gotin were already Jewish people living there what they transport us little by little to, back to Austria, you know, and uh I went...I don't know what what we paid them because my sister had already...we had __ in Bucharest, the Jewish community, the Jewish people, would give to each concentration camp what they an amount of money and my sister still had it, so with that helped me, because I I don't went to get the money.

Q: ____ can you tell me a little bit...you...you took your sister by the hand, and where did you end up? Where did you go to?

A: We we we went in...my my sister...we went to the to the train because then you don't have to pay because I still had the the badge over there, you know, and I went and I took her and we went to ,from__to , you know, by train. When we got in

were already a Jewish comm...community, and a lot of people, they tried to leave because everybody want to leave and from there we went in ..they took us over, you know, borders. They paid up the borders. You had to pay...I don't...could not remember how much money my sister had then, and we passed and we we went in Austria. When we went in Austria, we went and I could not remember the place. We allowed...it were a lager...it were already a Jewish DP camp in Austria, and uh we...there we stayed for a while. You know, a couple...I could not tell you...we stayed for a while, so and there we went to. When wearrivedin__, you know, because I were already in known. ___ before when I were in __ hospital, and uh because we were religious, it were already in the time when we went back, were __ and and , you know. Every block. Were a lot of blocks and every block had a different name.Uh___ and and , Jewish organization, _ Jewish organization, and I decided with my sister because I find somebody from my town what were religious, an older person...the Pollack (ph) was living there and he say you know something, Israel. Come in and let me and live with me. There's plenty place in in in in the same. I say I have a sister. He say we will put__and, you know, L...you know whata__...a a divider, yeah. (Coughing) And your sister can live there. And we done it because we don't have no other choice. We just got arrived there and uh a couple of days later we find other two sisters in my town, 5 . [could not remember the other name of the sister and because mine mine mine sister Sisyl (ph) was living with us,meand__.__ say to me, bring him in too. He's from Masiv. Bring him in, so when we brought in the two sisters, what they live today in Israel..also they're alive. And uh from there, from there, you know, a while...you know, I ina____ kibbutz andI start working and I had a tailor shop, you know. We start... start doing some tailoring and I find a guy what I used to know from before. Uh he were a tailor and and he and he said to me, you know...he's David Katz (ph)...he lives in in New York...and he said to me.

We livedin _. He lived in in Block D, and I used to go there. We met him over there in in the Block D, and he said to me, you know, Israel, I'm I'm getting married. I said, you're getting married? So wife sand I was in his wedding and and then we started a a partnership as a tailor. I started working little bit tailoring, and then so and so...he got married. He got married and I was wandering... a young young young boy, you know, and wandering in the streetsin DP camp and __...it were a hugh hugh camp with a lot of blocks, and one one one day, you know, I was coming to and I say they's getting married and they getting married, you know, but not married into the talis (ph) and the __, real real marriage. So of course in mine, in mine block, all the but he survived the concentration camp. The .Hewere _ before the _ and then he were...he survived, you know. I didn't know how how...

Q: Who was he?

A: He werearabbi.A __, a rabbi, you know...a real rabbi. You know, likea__. But he were already married. I didn't know...he lived in that block, but how, you know, in the Jewish tradition, is he were an older person and also married. I don't know he married.

When I come he were already married to this block (ph). When I left...

Q: OK. What did you do?

A: What...I I have done. So I went to this rabbi, you know, because we were neighbors

and uh I told him, you know, I'm so lonely. I don't know...I have a sister. She's with me here and I don't get uh...she she always bug me to go looking for other people. I don't feel so good after...1 survived. I was just a mussulman. I was just___ and bone. The few the few weeks what I were in the hospital, they put me on my feet. When I got freed, I could not stay on my feet by myself. They had to hold me. So, well, the rabbi said to me, get married. Find somebody, some...some...you know, and the next Saturday...next Saturday night I was... think I were invited to eat by this rabbi. This Saturday...and this Saturday night I went out. It was, you know, like the young people still want to live and they had a band. I don't know...a German band or a Jewish band...this I could not tell, and I went uh there too. And seeing in this place people dancing and dancing and dancing...suddenly I saw a young girl that uh, you know, dressed young, scared, poor like me. I was not rich either. (Laughter) And I approached her. Can I dance? And you know what she say. You know, I have to dance who she has. She says she don't have nobody.

She lives in a block so-and-so and I asked her can I uh...you want to dance with me? I don't remember I danced or not with her. But what happened...I asked her can I take you home. She start...wondered yes or no, yes or no, so we start walking till I got to her home and when we got to her home, you know, and she don't invite me. I invite myself in, because when I got invited uh coming in I say she had a father but he survived the concentration camp. They live for a while in Czechoslovakia and then he come back to Germany and he lived in the same camp, and she had a step-mother. When I walked in and I see Jewish people...they were, you know, personally and he survived. I give the honor...I say to him, right away, you know, I I like you should trust your daughter to me and now I can say that in English. And the old man he say if she want, why not. So the next day I got hooked up. I could not sleep the whole night. And the true magistrate was coming Sunday morning but Monday morning I approached her. I say, you know, you want to marry me. She looked at me. I say I'm honest and you're honest and your father...she say I'll go ask my father. And before she asked her father and mother __ get rid of her, she say yes, yes...he is a good boy. He'sa good __ and got so I approached again the rabbi. The same rabbi was give me that __ and he say yes. He say you have to the Jewish tradition. So when they had already thena_--_inin__ lager. They had already, you know, . They was fighting. He wanted young people. They wanted young people to come and join them, so the rabbi invite me I should go and marry first and be in Germany where I should , to be married legally, because he didn't know I will reach America or wherever I go it's is good, because we know in the home we had so much trouble...the the our parents and our grandparents had so much trouble because they were not married legal, and when Hitler come to the power, he killed the mother because she had one name and then he killed the people the the children because they had another name, so the rabbi opened my mind and I say I think you're right. We went. I took my, you know, my wife while she's __...and say when you __and you're serious, let's go. So when we wentin ___. We livedin ___ DP camp, and we went in in the town of , So when I got that information to somebody and he invite us to go to the mayor of __. We went to the mayor and we come in two children, you know, scared and shaking and I say, mayor...in Germany because __ Yiddish you understand German...I say I would like to marry this lady, this woman. And he say to me you cannot marry _ paper. You had to go first in the doctor, taking blood and see the blood so when I find : . So I went there. The mayor was so kind because I give some American cigarettes and uh you know, I used to get once a month a care package from from America, you know, in the lager for the children what they were ___...once a month they give a little care package and in the package were two packs of cigarettes, a pack of chocolate, some coffee, some...I don't know...

Q: little bit. Can you tell us how and when you actually got married?

A: Yeah. So well uh and then we got...you know, to the...I decided...I took with my the cigarettes and I have given to the mayor a pack of cigarettes. When I come back from the doctor, he say to me come back (sneezing-coughing) the next day. We come back the next day to the same mayor, andhe putona__. You know, even though the papers...we have legal papers. We have legal papers and the marriage license but the mayor is German. We have legal papers. I[hadaa___ while he went to get and that's we we find ourself there. He were a printer, and there he took Jewish letters...

Q: I I just need to know...did the mayor marry you?

A: Yeah. Let me tell you how the mar...the marriage was done by the mayor. After I put down the package of cigarettes on the table, he coming out. When he coming out, you know, and his office had a wooden...what I remember to this day...had a wooden bottle with some wooden glasses on the table, and he come out with the the German flag around his arm, you know, with a with a with a book and he...I think his wife and with somebody I think we had...I could not recall...to be witnesses, and he say something in in in German, you know, and the only thing we don't have to either a ring, so the the the the mayor himself took off a ring from his finger or from his wife's finger...I could not remember...and he say hold the ring and they put it on. I took her hand and put on her fingerand__ I say yes, yes, you know. I say yeah, yeah. And we got married and he give us the blessing, and he give it uh marriage license, a paper. When we had the paper, the marriage license, we come back to the the DP...into__ lager and we went to the Jewish to the Jewish what is organization special what took care of the whole camp, and I say I'm married. Before] went to _ and I say, you see. We we already married and because he was in the kitchen...her father was in the kitchen, so the guy, he made arrangement. He say why not. I went back to the rabbi and I say rabbi, we have the blessing from her father. We have the blessing...the blessing from ___. You know, the the president of the of the organization and the other __. You should marry us. You should give us . So what the rabbi say...I have never done it and I don't want to do it, you know, but because you're with me in the same block and I start bugging him and bugging and bugging him and he say yes. So eight days later uh it's in...I'm sorry I don't bought...I have in Jewish and I have in German the marriage license... Tape #2 .you know, in the camps, and from there when after we got married and we lived in camp with my wife already about almost eight or nine months. We ___ to go to Israel, so uh in in in Germany, in the DP lager, _ because my wife had already our son, Abe, and we went to Israel by air and I obligate myself to go , so when the transport went, we went about four hundred Jewish guys in a maritime ship. The ship had uh went in the Jewish...I don't know from ___ or whether it's the Brichah. I don't know exactly who made the transport, so that's what remember. The ship had from Marseilles and from . When we left the the four hundred uh Jewish people, we had all kind of different names. In Marseilles we lived off different names. Nobody had no identifications. When we arrived at the boat, when we went in, we we do had different names and when I arrived to Israel, whenI__, nobody had his own name.

And when we got off the ship, it were very, very hard and we don't have too much to eat.

I do remember we threw down in the water...we had ___ and other kind things, cause they had more space and uh we went in . We went to I think to Gibraltar and from Gibraltar we returned back to Haifa with the with the ship. I got...when I arrived in Israel with the ship, we we took us down, you know, and I start asking... have a wife and a child . Nobody knowa__ and nobody could answer me the questions. They say they'll be in Israel. Go find out. You know, Israel is not so big they told me and now I can explain this in English. Then we we talk in Jewish. Neither could I speak Hebrew, but I speak no and finally I start...1 got freed because immediately they told me you can go wherever you can find your wife, so I went ina camp. They had put up __ and lagers, so I went from one place to another till I find my my wife. I find my wife in , and when I find her, she told me she was so sick in the couple months what we were apart that I could not believe. The only thing she say what what is stayed here is a lot of sands and the water is not clear and that's not clear and there's no toilets and no water and no bath and no nothing. (Cough) I said then why we come here. I told her we had to go somewhere else. So then we got at our home, they send a . The sent it to Rehovoth (ph) and from Rehovoth the community sendituhin__.It's___ place. The ___ used to live in a house from mud...mud...not bricks, not cement...mud. It were it were paint and paint pieces uh the the roof. Finally we got over there, you know, and we don't have nothing but the one house and the other were a half a mile to see, you know, and there I start go working and then they draft me. They...I went in in in service and I they took meto __. They took me to to Rehovoth. I got drafted and they took me...now I forgot already exactly where, and I were or

Q: How long...excuse me...just because we need to move a little bit...

A: For a year. A year I was strictly soldier.

Q: Did you fight in the war of independence?

A: 11 don't fight in the war but I was fighting in the war after that. I were and they learn us how to build bridges and other kind, and all the times, you know, nice . | went to ambush. I were on ambush and I were in in , you know, and they choose somebody and through faith what I had in God they send me and I worked in a , as...and they send me to make machine, you know, in the military because I had a a...my wife had somebody before in Israel and he worked in the same in the same and I got a job over there working --__ what had four hundred thousand heat...and I had to drink milk and the other kind so I don't work too long for there and then they transferred me in another place and after that I liberated and I got to be in the in the in the...you know, I had a family and I got to work and and from there we uh I worked a little here and there and we made a living and my wife become pregnant again and we had our daughter, God bless her, and our daughter was named Hayya (ph). We livedinaplacein___. Half of our house were into the sea and half of it and one time there were a big storm and and the whole house fall down, and we were lucky. We we we we we saved our daughter, our child, and uh we had a lot of hard things in Israel, but we survived in our kibbutz and in 1957 uh we had hardships. We we could not have to give our children education and I have not find the proper the proper __ to work, so we decided we make out betterand =. My wifehad__ in the United States and she cried to him, and she come out first and then I still been obligated to the military, and the military don't let me come out together with my wife the first time, so we got split up.

I made a deal with my wife... come to America, they used to say when she come to America, it's like . You know, you don't needa __ because she's over the sea, so I kept my daughter and she took to America our older son, and uh and ___ the American made papers I should the Israelis to let me out, you know. My wife had to come back to Israel in 1957 and uh she come and we come to America. Since then I'm a loyal citizen.

I've become a citizen and uh I'm I'm in different organizations, not the communism organizations. I help other people and I've become a Mason (ph). I'm a member in the men's club and __, and Jewish uh Temple Israel, and I'm a loyal and honest uh member of the community and I tried to help. I help more other people than I help myself. I'm in business. People coming in to me and they don't have enough. I say ___ me more, so what I give them always they bring back a lot. Because of that I loose a lot of customers, so but I don't mind because I'm I'm a loyal citizen and uh my time is not wasted. I I I take my time and go visit Jewish old people and give up time. I play bingo. I help them feeding. I help carry them to the doctor. I help to do all kind good things, but uh my parents don't have it like that because they were not a tradition. My parents got uh a life... a life. My mother, my sisters and my brothers...you know, and we survived.

We were seven. We survived three of us, and now God bless them...they should have long life to live and they have their own kids. They they and they have their own grandchildren and they want to see go live together and and and mine to been here and to know...when I go away to the heaven and to be remembered and some of our grandchildren or some people what they'll recognize me or my wife. They remember they see what I was an honest and loyal, true citizen of America and of the Jewish faith. I give up my our head in Israel. sand I had splinters in my feet. I were in a hospital. No telephone. My wife I could not write wh

Q: When was this...

A: When I was a soldier. And you know, when I went for ambush, andI werea__ and I had in my feet, in one feet twice, and you know, splinters, and uh and I have a good remembery and I'm proudest I had a part in Israel, you know, of my life uh because my parents and my sisters and my brothers don't had that what I had. They see a Jewish state after two thousand years.

God bless and uh and Israel and God bless America, because I'm an American citizen and I'm for America hundred percent.

Q: Thank you very much.

A: You're welcomed.

END OF INTERVIEW