Document

Israel Ipson December 3, 1995

A:Okay. My name is Israel Ipson. I've been born in Lithuanian in 1911, March 15th, 1911.

And my father was a worker, worked in the brewery. The brewery was in Slobodka.

Why is it the brewery was in a place in Slobodka? You know, the Lithuanians didn't want to have the industry, what coming up, to the Lithuanians, that they should have it.

The Jews were not allowed to go to work in Kovno, which Kovno was the capital city of Lithuania, so we had to go to work in Slobodka. Slobodka was a suburb. In Slobodka lives around 10,000 Jews. Mostly the poor. They didn't have nothing to eat, and it was a pity. For where I come from a very, very poor family. My grandfather worked in the brewery with Golswolf Ingleman (ph). My father worked in the brewery. My uncle -- almost everybody in the poor Jews in Lithuanian worked for the brewery. Why? The owner from the brewery was the Wolfs, Wolf brothers. There were six brothers. The family were the Wolfs, and they were a very philanthropic family. And they support the Jews. How? They build the brewery, and everybody almost work for the brewery. They also invent a time -- used to be a time where full of snowing. In Lithuanian is a lot of full of snow, and they used to be covered up and drowned in snow. Was sending in with horses for the brewery to get the people, bring them back to the place of work. That's how heavy the snow it was. And my father was liked by the brewmeister (ph). The brewmeister was a German from Bavaria, and he was his helper. Anything -- the war got to be -- now my father used to do in the brewery, the brewmeister done only sit and got the taste of the beer, the color. | remember father used to -- I used to bring my father lunch every day. My mother used to send me potato sweet herring. It would want that my father should be thirsty, be able to drink the beer and save the tune for the beer, they call it. And the pilsner and all the names, they funny. And it's the way the poor Jews in Slobodka, they make their living. Later on when Lithuania become an independent

nation run by a school teacher, or the name Smetona, he gave the Jews more right. What he done, he brought the Jews away from the brewery. The brewery was filled with ; but it opened up more industries to the Lithuanians to make him happy. Smetona was a smart -- very -- was such a nice man. Tried to help also the Jews to participate in the industry. It shouldn't be any fights between the Jews and the Lithuanians, try to avoid it.

But still after, there's still was plenty bad feeling between one and the other. And what has happened, the biggest problem I think what it was, the Lithuanians start taking out -- the German took the Lithuanian out and send them to camps to work. They also, the Russians, the communists, was being picked, like the school teachers, manufacturers, the richer element of people, they used to be sent to Siberia, blaming them for the things which not happened. But also the Jews didn't knew nothing about it, but they should be saying that the Jews kill their own, that take no other Lithuanians to Siberia. Siberia was a -- the camp, a labor camp. It is a very, very, very miserable place to be. But mostly 90 percent from the people who be sent to Siberia been dead because they didn't seem to come back alive.

Q: What era are you talking about right now?

A:Siberia.

Q:When you're talking about the Germans and the communists, what year are you talking?

A:Oh, it was in 1941.

Q:You're talking later?

A:Right.

Q:Okay. Let's go back a little. And I want to ask you a little bit more about your family life as a boy, your religious background.

A:Oh, I see.

Q:Just the lifestyle in Slobodka.

A:Right. Well, I was also came in time when we didn't have any telephones; we didn't have any lights. used to goin school ___ they call it. What was the -- ever was the old person, knowledgeable, been pitching for pay to the boys to go to hayda (ph), we used to call it.

And at the hayda we used to come in and stay there until, in wintertime, 7:00, 8:00 o'clock at night until it get dark and bring them home. And that was our education to people. Like my wife was just saying, she speaks good Jewish, the Jewish language. The Jewish language was a language from childhood you got it up. And I had two rabbis, because one rabbi was the Hebrew language, another was Jewish. And then we had in Slobodka a rabbinical seminary. The biggest rabbinical seminary in the world, because in that time, in 1914, -17, the only thing they knew is to learn the bible. The people was poor. There was nothing to eat. They were sitting there all day long in the seera (ph), they call it, it is a rabbinical seminary. And people from all over the world would be sending their youth to that seminary in Slobodka. It was not only later on -- the later years grew up, itwas___ with their also young kids been going there to teach to become a rabbi. But it is really -- the big leaving to be a rabbi at that time, they couldn't do nothing. They couldn't make it. But they been supported by the American people, even in World" War'l. They already been sending help to the Jews in Slobodka. The chief rabbis used to come in here and in speeches speaking through the American Jew to help the Jews in Slobodka, because all it be these weddings used to come between rabbis and -- and then the rabbi had a daughter who had got to get married, used to take along

with him the comment of a trip to America and find -- go to the seera to pick a boka (ph), to pick a learning young man that they should get married and been supported by the Jews in America. It was a tradition to help the orthodox. And it is still right now in Slobodka. The seera is in existence now in Israel. They know more in Slobodka, but after the war they move the chief rabbi, moved him to Israel.

Q:So your boyhood was very involved with religious learning and --

A:Right. And then I was -- after the learning, the religious learning, I went in high'school. It became the Jews decided to open up a hipper (ph) high'school. And it became the Germans in 1917 they had a lot of educated people in the army and they decided to stay in Lithuanian to teach us, and then we had enough people to get a private school going.

And it was like one famous teacher, Karlbah (ph), and he -- in his name was created a high*school, and it called Karlbah . And then we had also in the Russian language a highschool. And we had in Lithuanian we had three high'schools. And then we had the orthodox school was in Kovno. And everybody been happy until Hitler come to being.

Q:Okay. What -- tell me a little bit about your family. Did you have brothers and sisters?

A:I have -- I had two sisters -- didn't have any brothers -- and they perished in the Holocaust.

And one was married, and the other one was still a girl. She was married, but she was a famous -- how you call it? Painting. She was a oil painting. She had a name. They ask her to come to Paris, and she was staying for three months in Paris and learning the painting guys. She come back with the famous paint pieces and all that stuff.

Q:Do you have memories of your family life together?

A:Oh, I have, yeah.

Q:Nice family life?

A:Very nice. Well, we been all together until I married. I was staying home with my parents.

And my father, he was a orthodox Jew, and everything -- we used to come to holidays.

We took it together, like the Passover holidays, the high holidays, and we been meet together. Everybody would come. And the woman -- it was orthodox fashion, the prayer separate. They have a separation between men and woman. But that reminds me different moments that they -- I don't know what you call it. A helper who helps the synagogue. Summis (ph), is that how you call it? Hell. I'll have to skip it. I don't know how to say in English. They call them a special -- used to go out on every Friday night and say, "Jews, you got to close the stores. There's all this coming around. Don't do any business anymore." So someone got to stop them, and they used to stop it. But everything was fine until 2042 when the war started with Hitler and Stalin and Churchill.

lL used to like to listen to the shortwave radio. And the Jews which was locked up in the ghetto, we used to come to my place where I lived to hear what's going on in the fronts.

Well, how is Hitler doing? Well, Hitler is winning the war or losing the war? And we was very interested in this. They come from my working place, which was the airport, and talking till the group, which used to come to listen to me, what's happened on the front, how Hitler is doing. And they used to come up. To explain the truth, I was already scared. They could lock me up and find out about it, because if you were a Kraut. And I be begging them they shouldn't come no more, because -- and I -- they didn't have a place nowhere to go, and they still -- I said, "Tell them it's very important." And they were very interested, like they would be generals, they used to tell me. One would sit here this

way and one would sit that way, and they knew what they were talking about and they been leading the war.

Q:Okay. Let's -- I don't want to get quite there yet. I still want a few more questions about before the war began; okay?

A:Uh-huh.

Q:Now, were you -- were there all kinds of sort of -- I'm still trying to learn more about the life in Slobodka. You got married at what time?

A:I got married in 1931.

Q:And what -- I'm trying to get a sense about the sort of political atmosphere, the cultural atmosphere. Did you have contact with Lithuanian people? All of that.

A:Let's see. Well, I went -- in Lithuanian after I finished highschool, I went to college, and in college I took up law. And I was -- liked to stay with law. And I was doing all right. I have a nice trade, because the law -- Lithuanians who have been all together in groups mostly going out together and discussing together, going to the -- every evening we used to come to one or to the other . And until Celingus (ph) was the ringstat (ph) or justice that come out with the decree that not one Jew cannot practice law until -- not no Jew. I'm sorry. He didn't mention Jew. He said not one young man who graduated from college in Lithuania cannot practice law before he got to go in court who working for five years. After the five years working in the court, he can practice law. I didn't have no choice, but I still did not have any choice. I couldn't get in to work in the court, because they answer -- when I used to send application to the courts and ask them for a job in

court, to open it up that I should be able to become a lawyer, the answer used to be all the time, "Sorry. We don't have any vacancies. We cannot help you." And I couldn't get in in law.

Q:What year was this?

A:It was in 1932. And then one day it was -- it was a lucky moment with the courts. I had to get a job already. Jay was born and I got married, I had to make a living. My father was poor. And I took a job as accountant and worked in a big concern (ph). And I worked there, and one of my buddies, my friends from college, he recognized me that I came to the government bank to pay a bill, I don't remember, for the company I work through, because the company asked me to make a deposit and I'm paying. That he was a Lithuanian. He worked with chief of police. But he also went to the college. He come to me and say, "Ipson, look. I got something." My name was Ipson. Iposon (ph) in Lithuanian. "I got something -- good news for you. Don't tell nobody, but I can give you a tip now." Lithuanian didn't have any mechanical business, like cars, trucks, machinery.

It was a poor farm country, like 87 percent of the Lithuanians was farmer. Then they didn't have nothing. And now already the countries like -- like now the Balkans, already they are Czechoslovakia started in their time, Bulgaria. Here no one with fighting with all that stuff. And Hitler's told this Czechoslovakian, told the League of Nations -- was in at that time. Like the United Nations, it was the League of Nations. He told the League of Nations that he wanted Czechoslovakia, said that Czechoslovakia was his. And that start already in that time beginning all the fights. But -- and I worked at the factory -- at the company as accountant. And another one came to me, also. He say that's what me a good job to be is the distributor of Belgian-made motorcycles. That was the F.N. F.N.

stand for __--_--.- And I got the job for -- I like the motorcycles. I went to work for the motorcycles, and that was lucky. I started making money. But it didn't last long. I had

started and the war started and Stalin got in. They divided Europe in two halves: half Hitler and half Stalin. And they divided that between themselves, and we didn't have nothing but what we had in the bank. We lost everything. Stalin took away all the few pennies which we got it together. And I went on a trip to Belgium because of the fact that they asked me. They want I should could come there. They want to talk with me about a new contract. Because I am doing good and all that, I had to go to Berlin. And I came in Berlin. I have relatives. My mother had a aunt living in Berlin, and she was a beautiful girl. And the owner, her son, from the tobacco factory --___----s who was a factory -- fell in love with her and they got married, and she became a rich girl. Then when my mother send her a letter said want I should became a doctor and she should give me a room in her house. Well, and nothing could be worked out with all that, with all the woman. And then in 1939, September 8th, I was in Belgium. I was in Belgium to the factory. I was making a contract for the Karmann Ghia. Kristallnacht. You heard about Kristallnacht? It was the night of Kristallnacht. I didn't know for nothing. I came, and mother told me and say I should take for her aunt a kilo bada (ph) and to take some -- a few cheese, and she felt sorry for you, poor relatives they had. But I took it with me and gave it to them, to my mother's aunt, and I run in not knowingly in the Holocaust in the -- not in the Holocaust, in the Kristallnacht. What means -- Kristallnacht means crystal, breaking windows, breaking in, the burning stores. Was a tremendous big store I was -- before the war I used to go there, and in house father owned in Germany. And in that store I used to -- anything -- they used to mark -- anybody who wants to make money gets $5 when he comes in here -- in Israel and goes to the colby (ph) store -- and go in the store and ask for a product and can't find it, gets 5 mark. A premium for that. That's how proud they were with each other. And it was the next year I came there, but it was when it was Kristallnacht. All ready all over the streets "Juden____----s Traboden" (ph) for the Jews, the Jews not welcome. The Jews cannot come no more into the store. So we didn't go there no more, because they took away the cars from the Jews and they took away the

businesses, took away the bank accounts. Anything they had, they lost it. Then we stopped going. And then Hitler -- I mean Churchill used to -- on shortwave radio used to and tell Stalin, "Be careful, Stalin, you're going to lose your head." And then, "Your good friend Stalin is getting prepared to fight you." And this was Ribbentrop. Stalin sent his secretary of state Ribbentrop and -- no, the Hitler sent Ribbentrop and Stalin sent Molitof (ph). Molitof was for Stalin. They had been getting together one against the other keeping -- they didn't know what was going on until Churchill got into the act and started World War IL.

Q:Let me ask you a few personal questions here. You saw what was going on in Europe?

A:Right.

Q:You went back to Lithuania. Did you have any sense that the life you had in Lithuania would change so dramatically?

A:No. We had -- We had a feeling that -- but to kill people, that the Lithuanians would kill Jews.

Friends which have been with all our life, which I have been staying with them going through law school, I couldn't imagine that that should happen like that. It was unbelievable, that we didn't even -- I had a big opportunity to go, but I was already married. I had a little child. Jay was four at that time, and I -- my hand was tied. I still say, oh, it still not so bad. It still only right now who is closed (ph) is the poor little Jews, and the poor little Jews used to come to Lithuanian to find a place of where to hide, where to live. And I was in that time a young lawyer. I still could take cases, but I -- but they used to come to me. They open up a office in Vilnius. Vilnius is the capital city of Poland right now, too. And I've been working out with them papers that they should be able to go to Japan. The only place that was open for the Jews to go in that time was for

Japan, and everybody was running. But they had to get a visa, a visa from the Jewish Council. And they find out about me, and, you know, some of them had money to pay for my work and some of them didn't have any money even. There was -- or they moved -- or the council moved away to Latvia -- Riga was the capital for Latvia -- ran away there. I had to go over with them to help them there. It was -- it was rough. But I still had my home. I didn't have to worry about Hitler, nothing. Only the Polish Jew had the problem. That we knew through them that it's no good. They came from Russia or from all this stuff -- the old timers, little towns, come from all over, run into Lithuanian to become a place where to live.

Q:Let me -- when you were talking about getting the visas for Japan.

A:Right.

Q:Tell me a little bit more about that. Who were you working with? Was that all legal or was that difficult?

A:No, it was not difficult, but two years ago it was the council who done -- what give visas. He didn't have the right to give, but he give it the visa. Nobody knows he gave out -- about 5,000 visas he gave out. It was not legal. If it was legal to travel, it was legal to receive it. But his government didn't told him he should give visas, but at the same time his government also keep a closed eye, didn't see nothing what's coming at all. But that was a good man, and he decided to help Jews, Jews in that --

Q:Did you know him?

A:I knew him -- right. I knew him before the war.

Q:What was his name?

A:Oh, I can't tell you.

Q:Was it Sugihara (ph)?

A:I think something like that. Why, you knew him? You heard of him?

Q:Yeah. I was wanting to know a little more about him if you knew him personally.

A:No. I don't remember so much, no. It was a lot of pain there, too. I remember it was a case I received a visa for a tenor, a singer. Schwartz was his name. He was a terrific opera singer. And he received a visa, but his name was Silver. And -- now I remember, the name of Silver come up a day before and took away the wrong -- the visa with -- the men had to get it, and he got it, the visa, and went to Japan. Later on it was a little easier because South Africa also had been given some -- letting in some Jews and it wasn't so bad. Then -- well, one day hell broke loose. Lithuanian or Kovno or Slobodka, was in the valley surrounded by mountains. Beautiful, beautiful in nature. There was a little cabin with -- Napoleon built it, and there were a lot of people who was going -- all kind of talented people were going there in that little cabin painting and writing. It was a famous writer of All Mapoo (ph), and he wrote two books, it was about that little house.

It was terrific. And the university been built it there, the engineering department. When the party (ph) go and the people been living there. And it was everybody were happy.

Everybody been in its place. It was status quo for years. And here, boom, Hitler didn't say nothing, didn't announce that they . In fact, Stalin -- Stalin was living in the

. Iwas in Moscow from time of the war. I was the only for a month. I had to go to get supplies. Well, it's so much stuff of there to talk.

Q:Wait, I want to be clear on this. When the Russians took over in 1940 --

A:Uh-huh.

Q:-- you lost your money. Did you continue in the motorcycle business or did you do something else?

A:I couldn't. The Russians confiscated everything. There was no private industry.

Q:So what did you do?

A:lIt was bad. I went to work with older already at the airport. You see what's happened, Lithuanian didn't have a airport. It was a big mud -- mud field. When it used was to snow and water, they didn't have any ground. And they had to have a airport because the war was going away in Moscow. Hitler been pushing Stalin, that he wants to take Moscow and didn't have no airport. That's why they got to have a place to let the planes go, and that's what he started with pushing strong. But Moscow was saved by the Siberiacs (ph), they call it, small, little people. They were mean, and they were ones who stopped Hitler by 15 miles from Moscow. Couldn't move. And that's why they start losing with Stalingrad and start losing the war.

Q:When were you in Moscow, do you remember?

A:Moscow in 1943.

Q:Later. Okay.

A:Right.

Q:All right. So you said that everything changed when the Germans came in; is that right?

A:Right.

Q:Can you tell me what you were doing, what happened?

A:You know, when the war broke, we all -- it was on a Sunday morning. We all run out in the streets. It was 5:00 o'clock in the morning, and we didn't know what's going on. We was -- we get -- people got so lost. They was running like wild. Run into me, "What you going to do?" Run into them, "What you going to do? Are you going by train? Are you going by boat? How are you going to run away?" People got confused. You wouldn't believe it. You know, "What's happening?" Hitler dropped two bombs. One bomb they dropped right over the railroad bridge. It's they wanted the bridge to be destroyed.

Another one they dropped right by Slobodka. There was a big field, that" what all the selection was, those who live and those who die. Then -- then people didn't know what to do. And I was working in that time in the transportation company. Worked with the transportation horse and buggies. Around 50 horse and buggies, I don't know, got together, and I was their secretary, organized the horse and buggy transportation committee, and we made a living from that. It's as long you were a tail (ph), you went in the system from Stalin, Stalin was happy. Then he didn't bother us that we made a living.

As soon as Stalin used to come with the all kind of directions, you already lost. You had troubles. And then when the in that time we had a week without a government.

You see, even the Germans, the murderers, couldn't take it no more when they find out what the Germans -- the Lithuanians doing to the Jews. They made pogroms. You know what a pogrom is? They been attacking them. And if you had a street, you would go.

You will go the long street, go from the bridge going on the way -- there was a way going you could go to Moscow. If you go to Moscow and you got a car and you can go fast, I can understand. But here, they are going with little children, pushing children's carts, pushing to Moscow. But from Moscow -- from Kovno to Moscow was 1175 miles, and they going with horse and buggy. And they'll never can reach there, because here was already flying the Germans airplanes dropping them over the walking people and killing people in the street. You could see here, boom, right lane already send people been killed going to Moscow. They couldn't go nowhere. You had to turn around and go back home. We had no choice. And | had a little girl, a little girl who was three months old. I had to go with girl, and I had a horse and buggy, but the copper wheels they had before they were, and it wasn't. I was the owner -- the, not the owner. The owner was Stalin.

And I went there and I took him. There was nobody. "Where is the manager?" The manager took also one and he run away. Then I took that horse and buggy, and I went on the way to Moscow, but went until 50 miles I had to turn around and go back. Then I go in back, Edna tells me -- my wife tells me, "I got to have milk for the girl." I went out to the farmer house and I talk with the farmer and his wife, see if they can sell me some milk. They sold me some milk. And they said, "Where are you going?" I say, "I am going to Kaunas." "Don't go," they tell me, "Don't go. They're killing Jews, and they going to kill you. You stay away from this road." The farmer -- I was lucky -- they told me. And I told to Edna, I say, "You know, Edna, we better go with the bad streets, second way road, not to go with the highway. The highway we'll go, we'll get running in with the people taking to the fortress where they're killing Jews. Isn't that the way -- we start going to the worser place. Not to go for the highway, but to go where the second -- second grade road. And that saved our life. And we came in Slobodka. I see my father

-- or my grandfather and Edna's father -- Edna's was the second, her mother married twice -- going in front of us. I say -- going face run into us. I say, "What's the matter?" "Are you survived? Gosh, you're lucky." And I looked at Edna's father. His hair is white. He was a black-headed man, and he looked terrible. I say, "What's happened?" He said, "Don't ask. There is -- they're still laying." He said, "Last night they killed all the Jews. They kill the blacksmith," whom I know, "and the printer," whom I know. The man from the Zionist organization, they killed him. They killed -- from house to house they been walking and kill now Jews___ the street. Killed close to a hundred people.

And like it was terrible. I went up in the attic and looked a little. All along the killed people laying in the back of the street. And next day they went running, the Lithuanians, from house to house picking a group of murdered people, and the cemetery wasn't too far, and they bury them and in probably grave. And it was terrible. Since then, I decide not to go out even for the street, and__--I don't know it's interested. I don't know. It was very -- a very religious man came to me. Before the war was a famous rabbi, Rabbi Itrac Elholan (ph). They have here a lot of seminars in that man's name. He was a very, very, high educated, religious man. Called him Itrac Elholan. And his assistant, assistant rabbi, the assistant rabbi came to me. I was home, and he tell me I got to help the Jews. I said, "I got to help the Jews? What are you talking about?" He said, "You got see Jordan. We got now a Gestapo lieutenant. He's terrible, killing all the people." I say, "What you mean? He say, "He's in charge over the Jews, and it's all give the right to the Lithuanians, do with the Jews what you want. Kill them. Do them. We want to liquidate the Jews people." That's what he say. I say, "What do you want from me?" He say, "You had when you were in your younger days," he tells me about this story of Esther in the bible. You know, Esther. You know Esther. And Esther also went to Ahasuerus, to the king, and to Babylonians, and asked mercy for the Jews then, and they survived.

Haman was the murderer, the one to kill all the Jews, but Esther saved their life. And it what he want now. I got here in ghetto now such a beautiful girl and her husband, and

she's willing to go and talk to Jordan he should save the Jews, not to kill the Jews. And she don't care about her life. They can kill her. She's going. "What you want now?" "And now I want you" -- that I should go and talk with Jordan, the German lieutenant that was in charge, and ask him for mercy to help the Jews. Well, I say "Yeah, but the girl does it, and let's find out. "Yeah," I say, "I'll do it." I went, and I almost got killed right by his door. You see, I open up the door. I went into his office, and he say, "What you doing? What you want?" I say, "I got to speak to you." And I tell (ph) him with his title, and -- Gestapo title, and he jump to his gun and grabbed the gun and start shoot. And he start shooting. I run, and I took off right behind the building and come back in ghetto. I was lucky that that thing was cold, because in that time I seen -- we had a sexton in by the Gestapo building, what they call it? What it was La Tucas (ph). That is Ukus (ph) means let the Lithuanian Ukus, th crown department from the Lithuanians. And I come running, and they -- I see in there, they put in Jews right in that La Tucas gate. There is a big yard surrounded with the wire, barbed wire, and they put that place on fire. And the staysand__ go, and put it by the match and blew up the place. And didn't the people to run out to save their life. They didn't let us go, just stay and shooting them. And they been catching Jews in the street and taking them to jail. They callthe a jail. They call it tomb. They're packed up. The jail full. And here it was for a month in jail. I was lucky to get out because I had a pack of cigarettes, but I have to give one cigarette at a time to certain people to see how to move out from the jail. I got out of jail and come back home.

Q:How long were you in the jail?

A:A month.

Q:A whole month? Your family, did they -- did you see them?

A:No, I didn't see them, but I didn't have no choice of -- I trying to go in there when I could. But then it would start I signed up for to work at the airport. I work at the -- I will be agreeable to work at the airport, they could let me out from jail. But what's the thing, the Jewish people that were afraid to go to work. And the airport was the worsest working place where the person can get -- how the ghetto exist? The ghetto been existing from cabbage, what the Germans been giving the Jews for working for the airport. The airport was a company, a German company, by the name of Mole (ph), Mole Company. Mole Company to cover the building of fixing up that airport that they should have a place where to come down with the planes. And they used to have a rough time to get workers.

Jews didn't want to -- want to work. They did not get nothing to eat and didn't get any place to work. They say they're better one to get killed. They don't want to go at airport.

That's___--_--s what the wife tell before. And they decide not to go to work. So Jordan came himself one early morning and start -- and it was the four Jews. They evading the place where not to go to work, and he kill all the four without even asking, nothing. They didn't done a thing. But he want to scare the Jews when they gave the order to go to work to airport -- and at airport doesn't mean nothing -- they got to go to work. And then they made no choice, got to go to the airport. Go to the airport to work was no picnic. There was nothing to eat. It's what I say. They used to give us a lunch, cabbage with water.

Once a month that's the little slice of meat, but it was horse meat. They used to bring dead horses, killing them, and give them to the Jews for meat. It was -- it was a terrible.

But you didn't have no choice. I lost two fingers. I've been staying and working -- the way they do it to make the airport, to build the airport, they been bringing gravel and put itin__ full for the farmer to bring in so many buckets of gravel, and put the gravel on top, and putting the 12-feet high -- no, it was 12 -- they had 12-feet high. No, 36. It was I say 36 feet tall wooden block, and then on top of the gravel, and it would make a hard surface, a hard bottom that the planes, the German planes, should be able to come. And they stopped up to 15 miles from Moscow. And it was the night when I decide I better go

to the airport to work. I don't want to go to work no more _____ brigade, we'd be package -- a package house. We'd be with -- all the Jews will be with me, too. And I told Edna and I say, "Edna, I cannot -- I am going to the airport." And her father tells me, "I am going with you, too," and one of her brothers. Three of us, we went to work for the airport. And every time in the morning, 7:00 o'clock in the morning, we used to come trucks, loading us up on trucks, and taking it to the airport. And then we doing the all-day work until 9:00, 10:00 o'clock at night, because they been pushing hard. They needed the airport it should start function. And that what we been happy. Happy was nothing to eat, but better than nothing. Airport was____--.-~ We had a uncle, a farmer, and it was a rich farmer, because he had the cattle and he had the horses. And the farmer, a neighbor of his, he used to come to him to his mother. Old, old woman. She was in the 80s. Come in to her and say, "Youngkalova (ph)," it was her name, "how is?" "I'm in trouble, sir." A woman -- the old woman come and cry and say, "I need a cow. We don't have any milk to drink. Nothing." So gave him a cow. "Go pick yourself out a cow and be happy." Another one used to come around, "We need a horse. We don't have a horse to work. They are filled." He'd been helping everyone, and they didn't forgot it. You see, people nowadays ___ think when they head in the right direction, you bring -- you can teach him into be a murderer, and he'll become a murderer. You can also at the same time to teach them to be become a rabbi, and he can be a rabbi. It's like now we have it in Israel, Rabin. Yeah, it's -- you can't blame everything on the murderer. The murderer been brought up maybe the wrong way with the__--_--<<.-~ And I be saying it all the time.

It's wrong, we been going in the wrong direction. Well, well, then got to -- then I am going and -- decide that to stay at the airport a long time, not so hot. I am -- it's a very bad brigade. I'll have to find me another one. In between time, then they, the, decide I got to go to the Albert _____, and ask what I would not succeeded. I wouldn't help. I would thinking. But I am thinking. I come in and worked with the farmer. He came in with a wagon of gravel, and I had to unload it. And then the girls used to take

them and shovel it with their father, and their father would bring it up. And it used work maybe by 50,000 people -- lots of soldiers and Jews -- and building the airport. Then a man comes to the wagon of gravel. I ask him, a Lithuanian, he's a Lithuania farmer, "Where are you from?" He tells me, "I'm from_____. Isay"___--.PS":<< The name is familiar. I say, "What you doing?" And he say, "I'm a farmer." "What you doing here?" He said, "We got a order from Hitler that we got to bring so many wagon of gravel, and he don't care were it be." I say, "75 miles away?" He said what he cares. It will take him a month to bring the wagon with gravel, but he going to have 10,000 wagon gravel to build airport. That's all what he's interested in, that's the way he figure. And I say, "Why --yousay___--?":""Yes." Tsay, "Could it be you are from?" ~xHe say, "Yeah. 75 miles from here." I said, "Wait a minute. Maybe you hear from the Jew by the name of Itska Kolominski (ph)." He opens up his eyes. "Yeah," and looks around, "He's a Jew." I say, "I know he's a Jew." "Who is he?" He say, "He's my neighbor. Itska Kolominski, he never went in the ghetto. He didn't go in." I say to him, "Well, where is he now?" He say, "He's in hiding. We hiding him. The farmer's already been hiding him because he done him so good and helped him. They pay him back. And they -- he been in hiding." And I say, "Can you take a letter to him?" He say "Sure." And I took a piece of paper, I write up a letter. I told him that his family already, he don't have nobody left, only me and Edna and Jay, because her parents she got into the___, they took away her family.

So the rest of the family, they only going to take itto__; therefore, yes.

Q:What period of time are you talking about now? You're further ahead, aren't you?

A:Right. Right. I --

Q:You're talking in 1943, now?

A:Right.

Q:Okay. I just wanted to be clear.

A:Right. Right.

Q:Let you finish.

A:And then I went -- we decide -- yeah, in that time decided take these little children, called a kinderatzen (ph), and they taken and killed all the little kids. Then I told Edna, I say, "Well, we got to run." She say, "What you mean we got to run?" "You lost your family; you have nobody. I got my family, they also. I ask, and we got to do something." And we still organizing. I say, "We got to go fast. We cannot play. We got to move it. We got to see to get out of that situation." And she say, "Well, how are we going do that?" I say -- I told her I sent a letter to her uncle and see what if come the answer. Ina month, not quite a month, the farmer come back and from her uncle a letter. And he writes he's willing to. He got to save the family. It's all that's left. Let's do something. I say -- "You come to here, and I'll try to protect you, to help you," the farmer said. And we done it, run away from the ghetto.

Q:When was this? When did you leave the ghetto?

A:1943,.

Q:Spring, fall?

A:November. November 26th.

Q:Now, all of this time, from the early part of the ghetto in the summer of 1941 until "43, you were working at the airport?

A:Right.

Q:The whole time?

A:The whole time. I think that -- it was hard to get in good place. You didn't have no choice.

You got to work. That's all I got -- started up with the police, and they say not to go to work. They say it's terrible. And then we got to go in and fight, and start fighting with all that mess. Even I have a lot of people who I knew very well, with whom I went to the school together. Here's Golub. You maybe heard. You got it -- you talk yesterday here about a book he wrote about a ghetto, ghetto day by day, and he's become now professor.

Q: What is the name we know him by?

A:You'll know him by the name of -- he wrote a book, ghetto day by day.

Q:Right. Are you talking about Avraham Tory?

A:Right. Avraham Tory. that's it. You met him? He went to school with me in high" school, in college. He's also a lawyer. We went to all -- and he was -- what is the Gestapo? .

No, I forgot his name. The head of the Gestapo. He was his secretary. Golub was -- Avraham Golub, Tory, was his helper. Well, and -- what I stop --

Q:Well, you were saying that you knew a lot of people, but you still were working in the airport.

A:Right. Right. Well, then, we took -- I wrote a letter to an uncle that we want to come to him.

And he hired -- he got another farmer, which he helped a lot. Marches (ph).

Q:Okay. I don't want to get on that quite yet.

A:Right. I know what you --

Q:I want to ask you a lot more about the ghetto life.

A:Right.

Q:And we have a few more minutes on this tape, so should I just ask you some --

A:Yeah.

Q:Okay. When you -- when the ghetto was formed, you were already living in that area or you had to move? What happened?

A:No. I was living already in that area. I forgot it. What the biggest problem, it's what's should come up and I forgot to mention to talk, and I got to talk now, is the selections, left and right, who should live and who should die. I got to go over that, too.

Q:Yeah, we'll get to all of that. But I'm just trying -- let's go back a little bit to the summer of 1941 and how the ghetto came about.

A:Right. Well, after the pograms and after the Lithuanians got happy and killed the Jews, they decide, the Germans, to get over, and the Germans start get bringing more to order, because they find out that way, the way the Lithuanians went, they'll never accomplish nothing, and it would be bad for the Jews and bad for the Lithuanians. They got -- they got to get it straight, and it's what they started to straighten them up. And then we decided to run out of ghetto. One night I got Jay ready and talked to Edna, talk to him a couple times. But he was a kid, five years. I got to get him in his mind that he should listen, because we were afraid to take and do something. And the only way we could take him out from the ghetto was to put him in -- in the small ghetto was a place where they run -- people been running out from the small ghetto to the big ghetto. And that's the way they survived, together they run out in the part of Lithuania in the fields, in the woods. Oh, but Hitler decided he got to kill every one, and Himmler gave the victory order to get the Jews locked up and get rid of them, to have the Ninth Fortress, and they got to kill them. The first thing they done is get a order that the Jews not allowed to walk the sidewalk. They got to use the gutter. They walk in the gutter. The Jews, the second decree -- Hitler was in Golub's book, I think, saying the same thing. The second degree was when the Jews got to wear the star of David on the front and in the back. Why on both sides when the one side would be enough? They say, no, when they see a Jew they got to kill him. That is a point where they set up the shotgun or the rifle to -- star of David, to kill him. And a Jew doesn't have the right to have a car. They took away the cars from them. A Jew don't have the right to have a secretary, to have an accountant to work for him. Nothing. And it was rough. But -- and the Jew -- and the main thing, they got to go to work at the airport. And we'll pick them up 7:00 o'clock in the mrning every day and take them to the airport to work. And it was also the airport there to work. It's Jordan, he was the one in that time. He was Miller, the head from the Gestapo, he was his assistant. And Avraham Tory worked also with the same Miller.

Q:I -- unfortunately I have to stop you because the tape is finished; so we need to change the tape and then begin again.

A: Okay.

End of Tape 1

Tape 2

Q:Okay. I just wanted to clarify a few points you made earlier. You talked about trying to get out of Lithuania in the very beginning when the Germans came in and how you were able to get horses and buggies and all of this, even though it didn't work. Why is -- did everybody have that opportunity?

A:No. You see, when the war -- on a Sunday morning, the Germans were commencing to drop two bombs: the one on the way to the bridge and another one right close to the ghetto.

And they were what scared the living out of many people. This special bomb must be such a blast that everybody not run out -- fall out from bed and come running out outside.

And didn't know what to do, had the people like crazy. It maybe was thousand people in the street waiting for a solution. Somebody said "Help them." Even it got so confused is when the younger couples who was, where they only had to go to the railroad station.

The communists kept a train at the train station for almost a full day begging everybody to go in the train and go to Moscow. They want to -- they are willing to carry them to Moscow, and the train was staying there. And they wait and they didn't go and they didn't use their opportunity and they got killed. You see, other ones went with horse and buggy. Where they got the horse and buggy? They had a cooperative, a cooperative, to tell the Russian people. They had to tell what all the private horse and buggy people.

Like I got uncles, my three uncles, they were owners. The horse and buggy they want only to belong to the cooperative, because they were afraid for the Russians. They say who -- those who work, those who eat. And they were so scared that they don't go get any food, that they board a horse and buggy and joined up into the transportation cooperation that they should say that they got some work and they been doing work. And

work, what they made a living out of it. And how is me by being educated? And I got my two uncles, three uncles, right in the board of that cooperation. Through their influence, I been accepted on the job to be their bookkeeper. Then I went carrying their books, and I got calls, people been calling in. They want to bring -- they found each other, they want to bring up a safe on first floor, on the second floor, all that kind of work. They used to call mein. I used to give it all to the dispatchers, and they used to do the work. And then it's the way we've been working with the transportation. With me, if you had a place like a stable, a lot stable, which we kept about 30 horses with wagons, and people were running to that place there for a horse and the wagon. They go off with the horse and wagon. Was going to Moscow, going to save himself in Moscow. Going 1800 miles, go over in the horse and wagon. They didn't realize they what foolishness they were trying to do, but when a person is scared and the devil is after him and chasing him, they don't have no choice. They do a lot of things what is not real for a regular person. But they done it. The Germans were on top flying over the heads with the little planes. Lithuania only had two paper cups, I call it, two of them. They didn't have any more. It was a poor nation. That's all they had. They had eggs plenty, chickens, turkey.

That kind of items they have: food to eat. And that's what they struggle even right now, here right at the present time, with the__and all what's going on. There the Lithuanians all struggle to the Russians. Can't help it. They'll have to have a war. I don't know why. I hope not, but what the way it's happened, the way it's going on, it's big troubles. Because the Russian who been born 50 years ago is now a man of 50 years. He may be educated, maybe he's a doctor, a lawyer, and here he cannot practice no more and he's got to move on. And he say, "What, it's my country." He say, "I was born here." And you see this all coming up. It's all kind of problems is developing. And the Lithuanians from their side was trying to do the best they can, and they can't do it and it doesn't work. Well, when they got in, the Germans, and the Lithuanians lose, it were the Lithuanians done the biggest mistake: kill the Jews. It's not kill the Jews; it's destroying

the Jewish nation. The Jews done so much good for them. And even right now they been going and asking in Israel for help, because they got to go to France, they got to go to England, they got to go the States, seeing that to recognize their independence, to recognize them as a nation. I one time came to the German Council in Richmond, and I was right at a meeting speaking to us, and I ask him a question. I say, "Would you tell me what's happened to Kennicksburg (ph)?" Kennicksburg is one of the largest cities in north Germany, and there was a population of around 5 million German, and the Lithuanians took in maybe 5 million Germans. It wouldn't be a Lithuania. And the problem is -- the United Nations all have problems how to get it straight again. It's headaches -- Europe is in problems.

Q:Right. Okay. But --

A: Well, then, they came. When the Germans decided to get the force, the labor force, was we were locked up, 17,000 Jews, in Slobodka before the war started with Hitler and Stalin.

And they -- I got to think.

Q:Let me -- let's go back a minute. I've now learned that you were -- you had a good position in the transportation cooperative, because of your education and your uncles and your family. Why did somebody in the community come to you in the beginning to go talk to Jordan?

A:Jordan was the lieutenant.

Q:Yeah.

A:Because they -- that rabbi knew me personally from way before the war. He was the President Smetona's good friend. And anything -- when he had to write a letter or something or something to ask the President Smetona for help, he used to come to me and ask me I should write him in the Lithuania language a letter. Or when he used to send a letter to Roosevelt right in the States, he used to come also to me and ask me to help him to write in English, even when I didn't know the English language. He didn't took "No" for an answer. I say, "Your own sister-in-law works for Shell," Shell company, the gasoline. I say, "Why don't you go to your own sister-in-law? She can help you more in this case than I can." But he didn't want to. He want me. And I couldn't help him. To satisfy him I say maybe I'll -- maybe he's an ordinary person who got feelings. I'll go. What am I going to lose? More so than the death, it couldn't be. And I went. And I went to the side streets. I know to the university was right there. Then I used to go every night and knew the places where to go. I went, but I almost got my head cut off.

Q:So because of your education, you were able to help people in ways that maybe some people could not?

A:Not, no. I couldn't. Everybody had -- in the ghetto was such a life that everybody got to help themself. You don't help yourself, you lost. And nobody could help you.

Q:So after a while the education didn't matter?

A:Didn't matter. It matter was a good little corner where there is room in the living, can serve you a loaf of bread for a -- a two pair of stockings for a woman. Or earrings, with a golden earing. You see, when also the Germans come out with the decree, they want to have the Jewish people should give all their gold, jewelry, and diamonds, to turn it in into the central committee. And they -- later on they'll have new orders, and when they got

that order, and the Jews, not so dumb, were giving away all their valuables for they had it for years. Then some of them -- one was my father-in-law. Took out a brick from the wall, and done such a beautiful job that you couldn't tell. He put in his gold _ watch, he putting in -- his wife had a chain, a golden chain around her neck that's plain solid gold.

He took that and put it all in the hole from the brick, and put it over with tape, taped it up, and you couldn't even tell. And it come up after we come after we got liberated, we went and got to find the gold pieces right in the wall where he put it in. And then it was -- well, this is one item. And then we went and then to go to work at the airport -- no, it was the second time, then the Germans decided they got to have the airport still done, with the company, it was a German company, been building the airport. And everybody had to go to work regardless. It took all the brigades and turn around and send all of them to the airport delivering gravel to help the airport done. And they done it in a hurry, in no time, but they work day and night. And one brigade I work at night, I cut my fingers off.

Q:Let me now, let's just talk about the ghetto for a while; okay?

A:Okay.

Q:If you don't mind. You said before that after the Germans took over there were all kinds of laws, what Jews could and could not do. Then soon after, did they decide you had to go live in a ghetto? When did that happen?

A:No. They -- all of they gave that the Jews had the right they should build theirself a ghetto.

And what they done from the Jewish people theirself, to pick out a large brigade, what they went in in the ghetto with barbed wire in the section with 27,000 Jews lived in it.

They surrounded them with barbed wire, and had Jewish police with helpers staying there

at the gate, where you going in and going out from the ghetto, staying there and helping the Germans who getting already there -- you say to German soldier and just stay the Jewish with young men, and all day long stand by the gate to help each other how to not to run in any troubles. To help there shouldn't be any shooting, shouldn't be any killing.

And then that's the way they stay there and build the ghetto. And not that the ghetto was finished. Was in August" 15, 1941, that's when they got finished, and they started in June 29th in 1941.

Q:Now, did you have to move into this ghetto?

A:No, I didn't, because I lived there already. My whole family -- my family and Edna's family, we all were in that same apartment. We had been sleeping four, five people in one room on the floor, but we didn't want to move away. You stay -- better stay in the one place and not to keep moving around. And we -- we been there all the time. Since I got married, I was in together with them, and we stay all in the same place. And only when they need the help -- they used to come, the Germans, right on the corner where I lived, come with trucks and pick them up and take them to work. And one thing would just happen. When they come with trucks to work, it can -- this idea was from the mayor from Kovno, from Kaunas, came with a smart idea. He come to Jordan, and told Jordan that he got to do -- to get more people to do work, and the people are not coming.

Something, they got to do to keep them moving. And they came in one day and shot four people by the gate by coming in and going out to scare the Jews. And when they all come here, they shouldn't run, they should go to work. And it come -- he come up with the idea that he need 530 -- 500 people he need first. And he got to have young people.

What he need them? He need them for the archives, because of the communists run away and left behind him so many papers, so many archives, in the Russian language, and the Jews knew Russian language perfect, that the Jews should go and help the -- how to take

out the paper and check them, and then know what's all about them in the paper. And who was idea is? The idea was the mayor from Kaunas; he suggested it. And they took five -- placed the 500 -- 534 people came. And all of the 534 young people -- boyfriends of mine, cousins of mine, a lot of people whom I knew, a lot of them I went to school together. All this appeared at night and everybody was there. They kill them the same night. When they took them out 7:00 o'clock in the morning, by 10:00 o'clock at night they all were dead.

Q:Now, why didn't you have to go with them?

A:That's what I don't know. A power in me told me not to go. I just until this day ask -- rabbis ask people why I didn't -- I stayed with them. And there was my house. And I told it to my buddy next to me, I say, "You know, I kind of feel funny. I don't think I'll go." He say, "You're crazy. What you going to do all day long here with the woman. They'll run you nuts. Where my husband, where is this and that. Stay here. They don't come in time back, it will be murder." But, I said, "Nope. I'm sorry. I'm not going. You want to go with me, let's go." "No," he say, "I'm going," and he went with them. And I went back to the office from the committee. What we call them? You know, I went to the central committee office with Dr.*Elkes, the head man was there, and Avraham Tory, his office was there. I went back there and to find out what's going on. Icome in there. There is a good friend of mine and a good friend of Edna, worked for his brother. He gives me -- grabs me and he want I should go with the 534. And something in me gets me power in me, I should get rid of him. I say, "Now, look Isaaci (ph)" -- his name was Isaac. I say, "Don't play with me. I come to ask you what's going on with 534? What's happening to the young men? What do you want me to push there? What's the interest you got in me?" He say, "Look, I don't want nothing. You go with them." And it made me hot. I

had -- I had to knock him in his nose. I didn't want to do him any harm, but he -- my life depended and he stops me. It was three, four cases like this in the ghetto.

Q:So nobody forced you or --

A:He forced me? Nobody forced me, no. No.

Q:Now, all of the people who didn't live in the ghetto area before --

A:Uh-huh.

Q:-- how did they come in? I mean, how did they find places? Was there some organization to help them?

A:No. It was going -- because Hitler or the Gestapo let them until August 15 we got to have a ghetto created. We got to have also until September" 15 a bridge made, and then they went to -- we went to work. The people who didn't live in the ghetto who went to work and helped build the ghetto, because they find out that is safer, because they say they've been guarded by the German, guarded by the Jews, and we don't have to worry about it so much at night when you go to sleep that somebody will wake you up and take you out and beat you and kill you and all, what they call it, selections. The 534 was a selection.

They picked out the young men, and it is the cream of the crop for many reasons. Not only for the paperwork, but they were a power. It was an underground it was in the 534.

It what the ghetto needed, and the young people understood it, but they were not ready. It wasn't so simple to do. But the main reason was that they should be organized to get something to fight the German before they go in the ghetto.

Q:Okay. But all of the people who maybe lived not in Slobodka before the war, they had to come to the ghetto also?

A:Right.

Q:Did anyone help them or did they just sort of come over there and find places?

A:No. It was like one went to the other neighbor or a friend whom he knew or a friend who came in and swapped the houses, swapped rooms. It been swapping. "Here you take mine in the comers, and I'll take you what you outside out by the field." They been swapping between theirself, and nobody helped them and nobody bothered them. It was a big mistake and it was a big mess. Everybody was running, doing anything they can to help theirself or help the other one. It didn't work. Then they stop it. Started -- and they find out that they don't have enough space. They got to have a bigger, larger ghetto.

They had one large ghetto and they had one small ghetto. The small ghetto was 5,000 Jews, and the large ghetto was 27,000 Jews. And to go in the small one, they didn't have enough more room, since a lot of Jews were -- because Germany decided to send Jews from Austria, to send Jews from other countries, to Lithuania, to Kaunas, to the Ninth Fortress, that killed the Jews, and it was the selection. And they build a bridge from one ghetto to the other, from the small one to the big one. And in the big one they still have room to put in, but in the small ghetto they didn't have no more. And I -- what they done, they told everybody, all small and big, say, "Go out in the large field." It was where they were building the airport. It's where they have the -- what they call it? Rockstaten (ph), the work places. And they all been sent there. But there they got a select, and the name -- a German soldier by the name of Rauca -- Jay got his picture of a writeup with him.

He was the head of the selection. And he had the help of the Lithuanians. They helped to guard so the Jews shouldn't run. And they was directing the Selection A and B, big

ghetto and small ghetto, who should live and who should die. And then after everybody come around and stay there all morning. I will never forget. From 5:00 o'clock in the morning until 10:00 o'clock at night without food, without water, without nothing. Andit was little children, sick people, unbathed. It was a terrible picture, seeing the way they been mistreating. Mistreating -- the people wanted they should be shot, but they didn't -- surrounded them with machine guns around the all -- around the ghetto, and they kept them all day. And then Rauca come around with a little stick, like you would play music, play an orchestra, directing all what to do, and asked everybody's occupation, everybody's name. And then after a while, we seen a German on a motorcycle come running and told Rauca something. And Rauca gave the order, "Everybody home. We don't need it. Go home." Well, they were trying to, the Germans, to find out how much time and what kind of power it will take to control a situation like this, because they were afraid for the balance of the Jews. After all, about 40,000 or even 30,000 Jews, it's a lot of people. They cannot take and 40,000 and shoot them out. Somebody will get ahold of guns and somebody will get ahold of machine guns, and in worse cases like that it's not so shameful. Well, then they send everybody back. And what the religious Jews was say, they were saying, "Here is a God" -- I mean "the hand of God. God saved the Jews." And they all -- they all go and -- and we all Jews start praying, and God is the one. Jews, you listen, and all that. The orthodox, and they were so happy. "You see, we still have a God. God saved us." And I remember it like today they been saying. And they send us back home. And this was the small ghetto was liquidated, but they had a bridge made.

The bridge to bring in the Jews from the small ghetto to the large ghetto, all the same time from the large one to the small one, and started Selection Number""2. The big selection, which was October" 28th, 1941. That's when they had the big selection. And, again, comes the case, I am with all my family, with my family and with Edna's family, all together. That the way they had it, in groups. They want, they pick out -- every groups they pick out a head an who is the talker, who can talk with the Germans, but not

everybody should go come and complain of say this and that. And I was selected by the Germans that I should be the speaker for my group. In my group it was around 30 -- 30, 35 people. And he asked me my occupation. And I -- the power in me tells me I shouldn't say a word that Iam a lawyer. I should only mention about my occupation.

What occupation I had when it's all I know is, all I learn, it's all my occupation? But the power still tells me, don't say a word. And then he start hollering, "I asked you your occupation." He hollers a little . Well, power tells me I should say I'm an auto mechanic. And I say, "I am an automobile mechanic." And when I say "automobile mechanic," he holler, "Right. All groups go to the right." They say this, "To the right should leave, and the left die." And all the left people, the 5,000 that night, been killed, every one of them. My uncles and I have lots family, and everybody been dead, killed.

The children, the cousins, raped and all. It was terrible. And that's it.

Q:So your whole family stayed?

A:They stayed.

Q:At that time?

A:Right.

Q:Now, in this big selection, where did it take place?

A:Vonugas (ph), a large country field. It was a big farm, a lot of farm, a lot of acres of land, and there they brought us all up. It used to be the horse market and all kind of place, all kind of business places.

Q. How did people get there? Were they told in advance what was happening?

A:They don't care. They say, "You got to be there

7:00 o'clock in the morning. How you get there is your headache." They say they don't have to

worry about it.

Q:So at that time everybody went?

A:Right.

Q:Nobody thought about staying home and hiding?

A:Right. Nobody was staying home as sick. They killed them right in bed. They did stayed home, but they killed them. The Gestapo came in, the Germans in there, and killed them.

They also killed some of them they called got to be in . It was like a bath, they take a bath. And they say, "Oh, you need a bath. Go in there." And they go in there, and Gestapo kill them. That kind of problems they had. Well, this was the worsest. After this is over, it got a little relaxed after they killed out over half and start all over. And it still stays in front of my eyes. I can see the way they passed. I was right at the corner.

They going mostly by alphabet. The letter "I" was right in the middle. I could see my -- the rabbi from my temple, they bring the president from the temple, a lot of older people mostly. They bring older, the old ones, they killed out. The young ones they still kept because they need them.

Q:So you saw them actually leaving?

A:They going from the big ghetto to the small ghetto. The small ghetto was empty. And there in the small ghetto it was not so easy -- in the beginning not so easy to get in. You had to

have____--_--<<, around number. You weren't no more after death. The selection, after that, they didn't have no more when the person, whether he had Number 10, Number 50, Number 57, Number 80, that kind. And since I register myself as automobile mechanic, one morning, I assume it was the two days later, a German come running with Number 570. It was me. He said "Come report to the gate." The Jewish bodies had to deliver right away. And they come right away running and told me I got to go to work at the airport. Well, they took me. I had to go to work, because I'm a mechanic. Because there I came, and they told me what to do. And I was also lucky. It's a luck. I'm standing with the foreman on a truck, it was a German. A German army soldier come into the foreman with a pickup truck. And he say he has trouble. The truck isn't running right. He talks to the German, the foreman, can we help him. The foreman called me up, "Come here.

Talk with him and ask him what he wants." I go to him, ask what he wants. He tells me he has trouble with his truck, it doesn't run. I've got do something about it. I said, "Well, let me see." He start it up. I didn't hear nothing. I said, "Tell you what I'll do. I can to lay down on the floor and you drive slow and over me, and I'll see what is knocking there." I heard a knock. We hear it. He say okay. And he say when will I be able to have ready. I say a couple days. He say, "Oh, no. Can you do it earlier? I'll give you a good loaf of bread. I mean, you can do it? I have a farm not far from here, and I want to run up to see what's going on home." "I'll do my best," I tell him. And Ido. And I lay down, and I seen a big pipe with the universal joint with the drive shaft is loose, and I use my head. I say, "What I am doing -- I moved it. It wasn't the newer kind of car; it was the old late model Ford. And I took it out with my hand. It was loose. And I go into the German, and I tell them I need a universal joint, and they bring me the part in stock. And he sa, "Look, I can't understand. Tell me, how do you took off a drive shaft with -- so long with so little bolts with a big tools. I gave you a screwdriver with a pipe wrench. I told him, I say -- you see, you all the time you got to bein your. And I told him, "Well, I had it here, it was so loose, the pipe, that I didn't have to have any wrenches.

With my fingers I took it off and it got loose," and that's what I wanted. "Oh, I can understand now." He understood. He gave me the parts, and I became the best mechanic in the Gestapo.

Q:I need to take you back cause I have a few more questions about that big action.

A:Uh-huh.

Q:Did -- you had a Jewish government in place and you had Jewish police in the ghetto. What was their involvement in these actions?

A:The Jews?

Q:The Jew -- the Judenrought (ph). Those people and the people on the Jewish police force, did they have any involvement in this action?

A:Not.

Q:Did they help? Did they try to help Jewish people? Did they help the Germans?

A:I don't think -- I don't think it was in -- it was rumors was coming around that the Jewish police knew where children hiding places were, and they reported it to the Gestapo, and -- because to save their own skin that there, that's all they had. They didn't want to get involved or something. They just point the place where you can see Jewish kids been laying in hiding and been killed. That's the kind of rumors I had -- I heard, but I don't know. I cannot verify, I can't say nothing because I don't know.

Q:Were they present at the selection, the leaders of the Jewish Council? Were they present?

A:Before. The leaders of the council, there wasn't too many. The only one was Tory, and it was Dr."Elkes, and Tory had a secretary woman. It's all it was. That was the council. And one was by the door, the Isaac, who didn't let me in to ask him find out what's going on.

About five, six people.

Q:So were they there at the time of the big action?

A:Yeah, yes.

Q:What were they doing?

A:Nothing. They didn't done nothing. They -- they didn't bother the police. The police saying at first they had to have a working permit, and to get a working permit was hard. It wasn't so easy. They been paying -- buying working permits, because they been told the person with a working permit his life is secured. They don't go do nothing to them; he'll survive. And they been giving us a working permit Number 537, and 537 is Israel Ipson.

And it was been already 537 in the , in that department. They been making it for -- in a minute for you. They had the special printing material and they be printing up 537.

They made 721 and they made -- and it the way it went. They had it made. And then everybody was trying to go to the police because the city police don't bother. They have enough troubles the way the average person has it. But nobody can go into the police.

They didn't took it. They want me. Why they want me? First thing, I was born there in that place, raised in the place. I knew every little corner, every little hole. They need me, but I say, "No, huh-uh. You don't go get me. I don't want it. I'd rather go to the airport." But then, that's my help me too, by not going into the airport. Some of them say, "Well,

we cannot keep Ipson so long. He been so many years already here. We got to give him a better job. It's not fair. We got to recruit all the work on his shoulder. We got more Jews got to go to the airport. We swap it." Well, but that when I decided on to my uncle.

Q:Okay. We still -- I have a lot more questions about the ghetto.

A:Sure. Go ahead.

Q:All right. So do you -- is there anything more that you can tell me about these horrible actions, the -- what happened with the small ghetto or what happened with the big action at the end of October? Is there anything else? Could you see the people as they were actually leaving, leaving the ghetto, walking out towards the forts? Was that -- could you see that happening?

A:A walk inthe__, no. _I didn't see it happening. It would be very, very rough. And that's funny. The Germans -- at the end of the Germans taking, there was a member by the name of Lipzer. Lipzer was a head -- a right man for the Gestapo. It was a Jewish person. I -- he became -- he was a nothing. He was a television salesman before the war.

I knew him personally very well. And he became a big shot because he wanted -- he want to go -- when someone been locked up by the Gestapo and going to Lipzer, Lipzer used to bring him out. How he been doing it, nobody knows. Had he been paid off, I don't know. Used to save you something to the Gestapo, to Miller, for him for his wife a present, and take it out and _ three. But it was the main thing. In my case, I felt a little better, but I didn't bother with him. I stayed away from him. | didn't want no part. Like when they put in Edna in jail, and I don't know why she got involved with it with her mother. ot in jail my sister, and they put him in jail by the ghetto. It's a time -- and I had arranged to take him out from ghetto to run with him to keep the place where to

work, but it didn't worked out. I got another very, very, ___ terrible what happened.

The worsest part of what happened with me in ghetto. I even don't want to talk about it.

I had a cousin who worked for me. He's a very smooth operator by the gate. He wasn't afraid for nothing. He had been supplying to the ghetto population anything they want.

A young kid. He was around 19 or 18. And he helped me to go to the gate with Jay, because his house was also by the gate. And he helped me also to get to my farmer whom my uncle sent to pick me up with Edna, because they want to bring me home. And I see one day my -- it was a couple months later, my cousin is in my hiding place. He came. How he came, I find out; but where he get the idea, I didn't know. I didn't want to have nothing to do with him. Everything when he done for me, I paid him. I just didn't -- wasn't in me to have to do it, all this smoke-miray (ph), they call it. But this time he come to me and ask me, "I need a favor." He wants a favor from me. I say, "What do you want? I paid you for my favor to take me to the gate." "Yeah, you pay me. I don't want that." I say, "When you want somebody" -- he say he want to bring his brother also in my place where I am staying. I'll agree with that provided you can bring my mother with the sister, with the older sister. You can bring them from ghetto to me, I'll do anything you want." He say "Okay." I say, "But you remember, you got to bring my mother," and I repeat him three times. And I say, "Marches" -- who is the gentile who come to pick us up. I say, "Look, Marches, you see he should take my mother and sister." "I don't know who they are." I say, "You'll find out." He didn't. He come on board his other brother with his wife, bring her to me. And I come to the ghetto and I say, "Who are -- what you brought them for? Who the woman?" "This is my wife," he say. "But who give you the permission to bring them in here? I didn't ask you to come." It was the best hiding place. It was mine. Why? It was in a safe. The Gestapo wouldn't dream to fnd somebody. A gentile should work so much to bring people out of ghetto, but he done it. Well, I got hot. I said, "Now, look. I don't want no more part of you. I told you a bunch. I don't want -- I want my family. I didn't have nothing do with

strangers. Your wife, fine. I don't have nothing. I'm not married to your wife." Didn't listen again. And he come with his less brother and his wife. And something got him when they came to a little town they had to go through to come to me. It was Zezmer, Zezmer. And go in three soldiers. And that to them comes a wagon, and the wagon was my aunt -- the boy's mother -- and his wife. Four already been with him; two more came.

And I'm seeing the soldiers, and they were thinking that the soldiers go enough that they want to arrest him. And they start running, about -- my aunt and my cousin, and the soldiers didn't know what's happening. There were a big pile of hay. It was the fall of the year. And they got in the pile of hay, they were hiding in the hay, and the soldiers then come around, took him out of the hay, and shot him. Killed him. Took him not the same day, next day. Mother and son, pardon me. Took him. I can't forget. This is almost a fault of mine, when I would insist -- maybe they would be more easier, but I insist to bring my mother. I wanted __ to have somebody. Many, many nights I don't sleep because of that -- because of that.

Q:Now, I want to go back to the ghetto a little bit.

A:Okay.

Q:ls that okay?

A:Okay.

Q:What -- you said that, you know, you worked in the airport outside of the ghetto. Was there -- were there also workers inside the ghetto?

A:Yes. They had another. There was a very interesting things outside of the ghetto inside of the ghetto. It happened I had to go and bring the beer for the German soldiers, but since my father worked in the brewery, my grandfather worked in the brewery, they had the connections. They knew each other, even in the ghetto. There was the workers who worked with my father, came to him and it's what I -- it's terrible. And he had only one suit. He had a suit on himself. One worker from the brewery, a gentile, he want he should come to him and say, "Braetka (ph)" -- they call my father his name Braetka -- "how's about selling me your suit?" He say, "Well, I'll sell you my suit. I'll buy me some cheaper suit. I don't need" -- it was a cloth (ph) suit. "Okay. What how much you want to pay me?" He say, "I don't know." He say, "Okay. Tell you what you'll do. I'll buy it for you. I'll give you the suit, and you'll pay me for it." "Okay. What do you want?" He say, "I want that loaf of bread with a half a pound butter for the kids." "All right." He comes in, he gives him a packet, and he goes away. And what they gave him? A brick.

A paper wrapped around a piece of brick, and took away the suit. And it was worker worked with him all his life. He could fix him, and I told him, I say, "Don't bother. I'll buy you another suit in ghetto, and don't bother with him. Have nothing do with him." That kind of people he been working with.

Q:What was the -- was there an advantage to working outside of the ghetto instead of inside the ghetto? Which was the better job?

A:Better -- naturally, it's better in the ghetto providing you have something to support yourself.

Inside of the ghetto was the main thing, the malin (ph) what they call it, the working groups. Vachstaten (ph). The work places. There was around 5,000 Jews working, because the Germans needed them very bad. They needed them to make loafs and to make ears. And they used to catch -- bring cats and dogs and killing them, and taking the ear covers and making ear covers from their skins. And they were bringing them in the

places where they have been hauling the cats and dogs was in synagogues, bringing them full synagogues dogs and killing them. And there was already sitting sewing machines, making ear covers for their ears from the dogs. And one day I come to work -- I come to work with my cousin. I was the head of the brigade coming into the airport. A German come to us, and he tell me, he say, "Look, I want you to take me to the ghetto." I say, "What do you mean you want me to take you to the ghetto? I have nothing to do with it.

Leave me alone. Stay away." Next time he say, "You got to help me. I can't get any beer. I'm short of bottles." And the Germans couldn't get any beer when they didn't have empty bottles. "Well, I'll arrange that," I said, since I knew the people who knew my father. And I told him, I said, "I need bottles," and they arranged it to give me three, four cases empty bottles, but for my boss tohave beer ___--.- And one day, I seen the Gestapo man come looking for me. I got scared to death. I say, "Oh, this is the end.

This time I no get out." And who it was? It's funny. The brewmeister from the brewery who it was before the war, who worked together with my father before the war, and now he became a big Gestapo man. One of the big, big ones. And he was trying to find out his boss. He want to see the Wolf brothers. The Wolf brothers, the six brothers, who helped build the brewery, and Ingleman, they was still -- two were still alive. The rest of them were dead already. And he came to bring a package, the Gestapo man, that I should take over a package to one of his bosses. And he was a philanthropic man, a nice man.

And I took over a package, put it in ghetto, and I save it. And if they going to catch me, I told them I got -- he give me his card. He say, "Don't worry. When they going to catch you, give them this by the ghetto gate. They're going to let you in. Don't worry. And they'll see in this card and know it was_____--.PS"" And then Mr." Wolf came. He came through friends of my father. I told him, I say, "Look, help me. Have your son bring me a package I got from Wolf, a package for me." And I had to deliver packages. The Gestapo man used to bring packages for the Wolfs until the big selection. That's when they killed him.

Q:You were saying that it was better to work inside the ghetto?

A:Yes.

Q:Why is that?

A:You didn't have to put up with guys -- at the gates with the guard, with the police. with butter, with water, you had nothing to do with them. When you worked inside the ghetto, you go from your ghetto place to your home or from home to the ghetto place.

And for that -- the only thing when you had a sewing machine or another -- toaster, helped to trade it in by the gentiles. Items like that, they used to grab it and give you a good price, and they had money to buy it. I had from one of my competitors when I wandered out of one of the buildings it was, a cigarette box mixed from gold. Asked me to trade it in for food. It was from Mr."Frumpkin (ph). And I'll take it. I'll try to do it, but I took it but I wasn't capable to make a deal and I brought it back. He didn't -- if they would have caught, they would have caught me, not him. It's not interested. It's not involved in it. I was the one involved by tooking the transaction. My life was in danger, but not theirs. And --

Q:Well, but now, isn't it possible that if you worked outside the ghetto you had more of an opportunity to do business or to get extra food or that kind of thing?

A:Yes. They right, they live. But I don't know that life is worth it so much to do it. Well, mostly Edna she was more for that. I didn't go for that. Didn't want to risk her life. I had been looking for her twice. And now when I run away from the ghetto, I run no more from the ghetto, but I had a new working place already. They gave me rifemeister

(ph). What I really been doing, taking old guns, rifles, cleaning it, fixing it up, oiling it, and putting back in stock.

Q:Is that outside or inside the ghetto?

A:That was inside. They took a few people. They didn't took anybody. They were afraid. For me they weren't afraid. They say when I'd say it wouldn't happen, it wouldn't do -- I wouldn't done it.

Q:Could -- how did people get chosen for certain job assignments?

A:How did they get what?

Q:How did people get chosen for certain job assignments?

A:Had to have pull. You know what pull, what I mean? "P," protection. Without protection you didn't get nothing. It just even don't dream about it. To get it, you wouldn't. But it was Avraham Tory. You had to have him when you need to get a good job. It was Dr. Geslin (ph), you had to have him to get a good job. He was the labor department chief. He couldn't get without him a good job. I couldn't get a good job. I didn't get it. My brother-in-law was a no-good. It was every little thing he wants to be paid with money. I wasn't for that. But I didn't spoke to him again, and . People had to have him to get -- to be able to get a job.

Q:So the administration in the ghetto was --

A:Wasn't too hot. Wasn't too hot. The reputation of theirs and the name was terrible. They were drunks. They used to go out five, six, big shots -- I wouldn't call them -- going out in the city, encounters, looking around to get something for nothing.

Q:They weren't that helpful to the population?

A:No, no. Nothing. They weren't helpful. They would help -- trying to help themself. But in the end, the Germans killed them.

Q:What about Tory? Was he -- was he helpful? Was he a good man?

A:I don't know. I cannot tell you. I don't want to that he should get angry and maybe sometimes he run into me and say, "What you done to me?" Well, I don't get along with him. He right here, because I met him a couple of times in Israel. I've been many times there.

And I've been meeting him -- and, well, I don't know.

Q:They were all a little bit --

A:Yeah. He didn't done any harm to me, but the book of his he been writing, it had all of it been translated, because he was a smart cookie. You know, I'd say one thing. Well, it's not the Lithuanians. You didn't know that Professor Belodski (ph) -- you heard of him?

Professor Belodski was a professor of the University of Lithuania, a professor for civil law. Professor Belodski -- Tory worked for him, a secretary. And Professor Belodski lost his mind in ghetto, and they put him in a little home, locked him up, and left him.

And he looked like a little dog would be locked up. And I pass by and I seen it. I pass by in the ghetto in that corner, that moment I was -- it was terrible. And I told Tory. I say, "Couldn't you be -- so big shots, couldn't you help that man?" He could help. "Why don't you do? Why haven't you done it?" He didn't say nothing. When you need him,

you need him, and . But he helped some of them, too. Without his help, what would good would he be? But why would he had to protect the Soviets or blue-mortgage (ph) or all those people without having benefit of mind to. He had a second wife. His first wife, he was married to a girl whom he knew a lot of. The boys from high school, in the fraternities, that I was along with them. We mingled together; we knew each other.

But some of them was nice and some of them was bad. Some of them paid for it after the liberation.

Q:What about Dr." Elkes? Was he a good man?

A:Yeah. Oh, a terrific man. He already write a book. You didn't read it, did you?

Q: Well, tell me about him.

A:Well, I don't know. He wrote a letter, Dr." Elkes, to his children. He got a boy and a girl. And he told them the direction of life, how they should behave, how they should live. In Tory's book is it, and it breaks your heart. And one paragraph is worth -- oh, what he had it in that book. But I'll have to get my book. I got him in English. In Hebrew he translated, because Israel couldn't use a book. It wasn't good for him. And I'll have to find out from my cousin.

Q:But he was a good man?

A:Yeah, he was a good man. He wasn't --

Q:And he tried to help the people?

A:He tried -- he could help more, but he helped. And I told him that, too. I say -- we met one time and we talk. He helped. He didn't done nothing wrong. He could do maybe more, but he done as much as he could with what's the name, with Gestapo man Miller.

Q:Let's change. We need to change the tape.

A:Oh.

End of Tape 2

Tape 3

Q:You were talking about the fact that the Jewish government, the police, the Judenrat (ph), really weren't that helpful.

A:No.

Q:Why -- why do you think it is that they seem to have a better reputation than in most ghettos?

A:Because the people around those ghettos, and the people around the ages from the ghettos was mentioned, they tried to help. Here was Robovski (ph). Robovski was a young, good Jew, who worked at the gate all day long for three years. And he done so much good by helping poor people get through -- he knew like a sewing machine going out. In going out I saw him, I seen him from the ghetto to sell it some bread, butter. Robovski knew about it because the men who got to take it out used to talk to Robovski to see -- to get it German to tumult (ph) you know, that he should know what he's doing, take him away on the side at that moment that we were seen. I carried one sewing machine, and it is a job to get it out. I think Edna or else somebody sold it, a machine, and I had to carry it out.

It was my height, and we put it on the front legs right in here and the rear legs in the back, and you walk with a sewing machine. Well, but there you had to have help. On sometimes a person like that get caught, and then he's in trouble and somebody got to help him to get him out. But some of them got feeling and some of them not. Some of them say, "Oh, he got it for money." He not got it for money; got it for food, for hunger.

It all depend on the person, too. I don't know. That's why I build myself up a reputation in the beginning. They begged me I should join the police. I say, "Not me. I would never do it. I can't do it. How can I be a policeman when I with the boy who was from

Vensico (ph)" -- Robovski -- "been going to school, been to Hayda together. How could I see that he's getting harmed and I stand by and not doing nothing. Huh-uh. That's not -- wrong man." I didn't.

Q:How did people get food in the ghetto?

A:Oh, this is no -- there was plenty. It was stole. It was one of my cousin, probably around 19, oh, you order to him a cow, he bring you a cow. You order to him flowers or anything you want. You could get anything. The best liquor you could get. People had money to buy cognac. They buy and drinking cognac. And here is people working to death to get it going, and they having a good time. But controlled that stuff.

Q:In the ghetto?

A:In the ghetto.

Q:But the Germans didn't know about this?

A:No, huh-uh. That was Atakata Pramovich (ph), famous lawyer. And he got with -- he became one of the -- got in oven.

Q:Now what about the people who didn't have the money to buy the food or the liquor?

A:They had to eat kraut, cabbage with horse meat. You see, horse meat you had plenty. That's what the Germans been sending to the Jews, horse meat and cabbage. That's all they been getting. They didn't -- nobody could help, and they had no choice.

Q:But your sense is people didn't go hungry?

A:No, they didn't go hungry, because it's not the Lithuanian's element on the job. It's not the element like the Lithuanian Jews. It is a person entirely another, made from another dough. Right. Even right now, you take -- when you go in any business, you go with the Lithuanian Jew, you have no worry. It's perfect. But you go with the Polish Jew, he in troubles, because it's a element of theirs is different. Before they started, I could cheat you.

Q:What else was going on in the ghetto? Was there any semblance of a normal life? Were there activities? Were there schools?

A:Yeah, there was activities, for sure. There was a schools. There was a Zionist organization working. There was the communist organization working in the ghetto. It was all kind of activities working. But --

Q:Did you get involved in any of that?

A:Not, no, huh-uh.

Q:What about culture?

A:Some, not much. Yeah, it was after the liberation I got involved; but migration, this I was very much involved.

Q:But that's later. In the period of the ghetto, were there cultural activities?

A:Yes.

Q:Were people dating? Were people getting married? Was there --

A:No, no. This is all stopped. I don't know, maybe in other ghettos. Maybe some other ghetto, but in Kovno ghetto nothing, no more. Only was the partisans worked hard, worked good, and they wouldn't killed Hyme Yearling (ph). You heard about Hyme Yearling?

Q:A little.

A:A little. And they wouldn't kill him in the ghetto, what survive. And I'm a personal friend to his brother, May Yearling. He's now in -- Yearling is in Israel. And I went with May Yearling in high school. We graduated the same year. And I knew Hyme Yearling, too.

Then I didn't knew that Hyme Yearling was so capable and so brave. He killed himself with a razor blade. He run out of ammunition. He couldn't fight. Took a razor blade, cut his veins. And Kovno there is a place Cochen (ph). Cochen's a building, and there was a fight going on in that building.

Q:Well, what else can you tell me about the ghetto life? Did you continue to celebrate Jewish holidays? Was there any --

A:No. You know, you going out from ghetto. Here I went out from ghetto with what? With nothing. I lost a mother, a father, two sisters. It was me. And I was thinking, here Thad an opportunity. Maybe I had the opportunity to save them, and people cheated me of my family, and I don't think I can never forget. I didn't know -- I didn't know -- I got now a woman who what is my cousin's wife who lives in Florida, and she's got everything she wanted, but she took away my sister's place. And I tell her it straight in

her face. I say, "If not you, my sister would be alive." Or maybe not. Maybe not, but right the way it stays, I didn't have no choice. Well --

Q:Is there anything else you can tell me about the daily life in the ghetto?

A: Well, I don't know the -- there was something, the music, you know, the Gestapo, the Himmler group, they liked music. And the Kovno ghetto had musicians in the ghetto, the stupors (ph), and the windmill (ph). And all the musicians they had to once a week come in the building from the seminary -- Was a large building. That building hold about 1500 people -- and play music for the ghetto people. It's the way they got it in their head.

They had to go. Who the heck was thinking with music? But they had to go. They forced you to go.

Q:Did ORT (ph) go into the ghetto?

A:ORT, no.

Q:ORT?

A:ORT Gardenia (ph). ORT organized the regstaten (ph). ORT put in all of the -- Yakovaleski (ph) was the man. Yakovaleski was the one who organized it. Yakovaleski is the one who created ORT. Yakovaleski, he was -- he came here and he survived. He came here after the war. And he died in -- in Tel Aviv, and called a part of the cemetery in .

And a lot of them still have an occupation now and working now with trade with kept (ph) making. That was a big deal. And poor Leski. He trained them with kids. He learned them. He made me as a ORT member. He came after the war to Edna. The ORT girls, ORT woman. They invited him to come to speak from Israel. And he come

here, and he spoke. And he knew Edna from the ghetto time and before the ghetto. And he likes her cooking. Yakovaleski is a country (ph) within. He's dead. Nice man.

Lovely man.

Q:How much information at the time did you have about what was going on with the war and what was going on with the concentration camps?

A:I knew everything what it was on the radio. I used to jump out at night when I worked the night brigade, or even in daytime. I worked -- the brigade was rifemeister, they're called.

And there was a group of around 30 people with two woman. The woman used to prepare a kitchen for us to eat. The captain was a nice man. He was a vermacht (ph) person from the army, and he was in charge of our group of the rifemeistery. And he see to it that we should be fed right, we should be treated right. He was a nice man.

Something he was from the German soldier, not bad. And he used to go to eat in the city.

Slobodka is a suburb, but to go to have a good meal for the Gestapo was they got to go to his headquarters to --

Q:Kovno.

A:To Kovno. And the captain used to go away for two hours, and there'd be no way to figure and no one knew how long he was gone and all that. And I used to go in in the office and the captain turn on the shortwave radio. Everybody watching me, what's on the news.

Everything I knew what's was going on. To England, mostly. The piece of Canterbury is there a big religious man. He been appealing to the Pope, and we asking the Pope to help the Jews, they killing all the Jews. And the Pope didn't care. He didn't -- now John is different, because he is more associated with the Polish Jews. It was his friends. But the other one, well --

Q:Let me -- well, let's stop for a minute. Let's just try to finish up on this ghetto chapter --

A:Uh-huh.

Q:-- and sort of how you felt day to day while you were living in the ghetto. You went to work.

Your family all went in different directions in the daytime. Was there a fear during the day that you might be hurt or that when you came home from work something might be wrong with your family?

A:Right. Oh, this was all the time. We were afraid maybe one of the family wouldn't come back. And go in the morning to work, we didn't know you'll be back. Maybe not.

Maybe you'll be reported by somebody. Maybe somebody will be hot and go to the Gestapo and say, "Hey, take a look. He messed it up." It's good -- it's enough to get killed -- here_____--.-: Every day Hitler used to send burgess (ph) with all metal pieces, filling it up, bringing in cement for they need it for the airport for the runways. And taking our back steel -- old cars, old tanks, all that, bringing it back. And who had to unload? Me, as they elected. I was a mechanic and top quality mechanic already, they send me there to help unload the cement and help to load up the steel. And it was a tough job, because it was raining and I didn't have any shoes. I had a cut-up tire, with a knife to cut it up on, and tied it up around with wires that I shouldn't slip. And here I'm going with a metal on my shoulder and bring it in to the bars to drop it in that it should be filled up. I don't know how many tongues they had to have. And when I'm going with the wornout tires sole, I slipped. And when I slipped, and I had still a piece of metal on my shoulder, I dropped the metal and I start falling. And I grab myself on the wood and the board, but it was going like a little bridge from top down to this piece of metal. And I pulled myself up not to fall in. Would I fall in, I don't know how I would got out. Maybe

I would be dead, because of this old broken up steel for the rest of the other boys been dropping it in. And the Germans seen it. He come running to me, without even saying nothing, and start beating me with a stick. Right here on my shoulder. And I -- I couldn't forget. I told the German, "You shut up. You better stop. I'll break your neck." And I knew the German will react right away. I ama nothing. I am a dog in that time. And he pulled out a pistol and start laying into me. And the boys who knows me, I walked with me together in the same spot, told me, "Ipson, run, run. He going to kill you. Take a look. He's got to pull the gun. You better go." And all of a sudden I hear shimm, shimm, shimm, shimm. And also I been saved. I don't know how I got saved. I been running right behind the old cars, the old trucks, and he lost his aim right. But in the beginning he as going to kill me in a minute. And here is a case here I went to work, I wouldn't even dreamed about it was going to happen, and get killed. It's what's happening in the life every day, every hour, every minute.

Q:Did you teach your son -- he was a -- was your daughter still alive at this point? Your little girl, was she still with you?

A:Yeah. No, she wasn't there. She was dead already.

Q:Before -- how did she die?

A:We didn't -- she died from poison, poisoned milk. That's what the doctor said. The doctor.

Who knows? Edna says she needs for the girl milk. She was young; she was three months. And I went to the farmer asking for milk, and she gave me the milk. And she told me to be careful. She say, "The milk is maybe sour," but she didn't -- she didn't want I -- to spill out. She want to give some of the Jews a piece and buy one to drink for the child. And that way I got her the milk, and she died a month later.

Q:This was at the very beginning of the ghetto?

A:Right. Very beginning. It was after the pogroms. I went to the number two highway, not the number one. The number one highway a lot of Jews been coming back and they been -- got stopped and killed. They be killed by the Lithuanians.

Q:So was your daughter, did she go into the ghetto with you or this was all before?

A:Before.

Q:Okay. So you had your son. Did you teach him how to protect himself in the ghetto? How to hide or anything?

A:Right. We had to.

Q:What did you teach him?

A:I would teach him to be quiet, not to say a word, nothing. When he's in the dark, be careful, look around every step, the good light. And he should be careful to move around from one ghetto to small ghetto. When we are escaped, why I had to have him a place where to keep him. Gentiles wouldn't take him, and I didn't want nobody should know too much about it. And I had to take him over from the big ghetto to the small one.

Where I took him over to the small ghetto and told him, I said be quiet. He shouldn't say a word until -- wait until we come back and we'll bring him. And here is a kid like five months -- no, no, not five months. Five -- five weeks.

Q:Five years.

A:Right. No, I been laying -- he was laying, not move. And he had a German soldier, guard, and going around with his boot. And he was close to him, and he say, "Oh," and I train him.

Q:It must have been difficult to have a such a young child at that time.

A:I didn't have no choice. When you have no choice, you be surprised at what you do. You do anything when something bad is chasing you, pushing you, and telling you what to do.

You don't become no more that all-quiet person, don't say nothing and do nothing and interested in nothing. You can't do it. It's another force forces you to do things which you never thought done it in your normal life.

Q:But did you ever think of trying to get him to safety or to maybe to stay with some of the Lithuanian people without you so that you could move about more freely?

A:No. I didn't trust the Lithuanians. Nothing. The Lithuanians was this worser than the Germans. The Germans, when you speak a good German, you still could save yourself, but not with the Lithuanians. Like I came in Berlin, I run from the Russians. I run from them, too. I run from the Germans. I run from the Russians. I got to run -- keep running.

I come in Berlin and --

Q:This is -- let's wait for that; okay?

A:Okay.

Q:I don't mean to stop you, but I know that comes later.

A: All right.

Q:Were you aware of any underground or resistance activity inside the ghetto?

A:Oh, yeah.

Q:How did you know about it?

A:I know May Yearling, boyfriend of mine, and he used to come once in a while, get together, he and his wife, and we been talking. And his brother was Hyme, Hyme Yearling, and Hyme Yearling was tough. But I want now -- well, I don't know. One case I don't know.

I can't tell you. I don't know who sue some, and I don't want to get Meyer (ph) involved.

Meyer a good boy.

Q:Well, did you ever think of getting involved with them?

A:Oh, no, no. I send him every once in a while a check to help him. He sends me -- he writes a book. He sends me a book; I send him a check. He knows I got already fixed customer.

And he writes about the ghetto. It's all he writes about, the ghetto life.

Q:No, no, I'm talking about then. At the time --

A:No.

Q:-- did you know what was going on with the underground?

A:No. I didn't want to know. I didn't want to get involved, because they had problems with the underground by the gate. The shootout was between the underground and Gestapo at the gate of Florence (ph). Florence was a soap factory, and there was a corner covered by Holmes Higher Buildings (ph). It was a hiding place there. And there they went out from the ghetto. It was going already to the underground group to the woods. They been already and checked it, and it was right by the factory of Florence. The truck driver who had been taking them over took money from nothing, and he spilled the beans. He told the Gestapo that the group Jews are running out from the ghetto, and they been waiting already for them and they start shooting each other. Well, and everybody survived, but they killed the sofa (ph) and got rid of the truck. But that man is buried in the cemetery from Richmond. He came to me and I helped him. And he decide to settle with what they done, with the lights laid out, and they caught them with their handgun by the gate and Lipzer took him out.

Q:So toward the end of your stay in the ghetto, you had heard about children being taken away.

You decided you had to get out, and that's when you contacted your wife's uncle?

A:Right.

Q:Now, at that point, who was still living with you before you left the ghetto?

A:My father and mother and sisters. I had a brother-in-law, who I wish I would never had had.

He -- my sister was his wife, and he lost her. But he's been a big shot. He was a tough.

-fuhrer, they call it. And he was living with -- in ghetto, and he was thinking he's bigger than anybody. And, you know, because of him I lost my sister, and --

Q:And your wife's family?

A:No. She lost everybody -- in five minutes, she lost them. They come and ask for Riga, who was the I -- the selection for Riga. Riga, Jews for Rigaburg (ph). The reason was the Germans weren't careful, and they stored all the Jews in Riga. Killed them all. Didn't have any work force where they could get them for nothing. And then they had to get people for -- new people for Riga. They took it from the ghetto of Kaunas and send it to Riga, and there went my wife's family. There went her family.

Q:But they -- when they took your wife's family, how did that come about?

A:Oh, it___-- for one right now. They truck away my father-in-law, Edna's stepfather, great big hand. He must see me staying for the last time that he waved, and I stayed in front of my eyes all the time. They appears by his house, as he was a very, nice, nice, nice man.

But he went to the ghetto from the first day to the last. And the police came -- I don't know. Maybe it's my fault, too. I don't know. They need five people -- they need people for Riga to come and get them. There were five. It was a father and mother, two brothers, and a sister. It was five people. They come and ask for them. But she be around -- I don't know where she was in that moment -- she wouldn't let him take it. And she wasn't there, and she blame right now in five minutes I lost a family, and cries all, all the time. Because it was very, very painful for her. And I still had my family, but I lost them in the big selection. And that's quite in the big election. No, no, it was bad. There was a brigade was Monkas Melina (ph). Monk. And that man had build himself a place to hide that it was unbelievable. You couldn't find it anyway you want to look. And he was in the ghetto. And my sister was with him in his melina. And when they tried -- after the war, I run right away I was there. August the lst the communists took Kaunas.

I was the first -- in the evening, I was there. And I came with the trucks from the Russian

soldiers, find the Jews already, jumped with them in the truck, and came to Kaunas and run right away through the ghetto. And I running into the ghetto and going from corner to corner at the bottom looking. Nothing. It was so clean, and I never seen like it. I couldn't find nothing. The only thing I seen Lithuanians, which was in Pavoretto (ph) what were the pieces of a woman. Lithuanian woman with a long stick with a big metal digging in the ground, trying to find somebody bodies, maybe. She could find others, be able to get some stuff. It was unbelievable. And there the gentile who had lived next door th cemetery seen me. I used to go and listen to the shortwave radio, what's going on. And he told me he seen that there is too that there was Segersom (ph). No Mendleson (ph). Mendleson was a man who was in the brigada with me, and in a year after the war, and he run in in the place where we been working. He work with me there in the brigade. And hiding himself, Mendleson. And one of our soldiers, this -- and the German army was going back already all the way back to Tulsic (ph). And one of the head like a Gestapo decided to go in there where it was working, the sergeant, and what's his name wasn't too careful, and he seen Mendleson. He took his pistol and killed him in the day of the liberation. And it was they killed Mendleson.

Q:Okay. Why don't you tell me a little bit about how you left the ghetto. How you and Jay and Edna left the ghetto to go into hiding. You told me that you had made arrangements through her uncle. Would you prefer to stop now?

A.lt's -- I would stop, yeah.

Q:Okay. Why don't we do that.

A:Okay?

Q:Okay. So how is it that you got out of the ghetto to go into hiding?

A:Well, after we got out of the ghetto --

Q:How did you get out?

A:Well, how I got out to the ghetto, as I had to get at night to -- I cut the barbed wire with a pair of pliers, opened up a big hole, and crawled through that hole. Across the street was maybe by 200 feet was already houses. It was a small ghetto who was -- that was liquidated. That is their houses where they lived, the people. And from there already a farmer, my uncle send to us, was waiting outside of the territory was a hundred and -- close to a hundred miles. And there we got together again there. Jay, me, and Edna and the farmer. And he put in Jay in the wagon, which was full of straw, covered him up, so it shouldn't be nobody should see him. And I was walking with that wagon, because to the danger places I didn't want to run and to make some noises, should be as quiet as could be. I even asked the farmer to take the shoe of the horse, to put the shoe with rubber pads we shouldn't hear him go around or do anything, we be quiet. The same is what's very important for us, the German, they had these boots there with nails. You could hear it for a mile. And that's the way we moved. I seen one stopped us with a wagon, "Where are you going? What you got?" They got -- they thinking he the farmer.

"You got anything for sale?" "I don't have anything for sale," and they didn't bother.

Q:And your wife was walking, also?

A:She was walking as much as she can. We all walked -- walk as much as we can. We had a wagon to take us in and go as fast and all we want, but we didn't walk that way. You were so scared every little noise. A rabbit goes by, you jump, scared to death. Who is

that with that noise? And then we were successful. Thank God. My cousin when he went to me, he went on a bicycle. It was a long, long worn out trip.

Q:How far did you have to travel?

A:60 -- about 75 miles.

Q:So now, did you go with this one farmer the whole time?

A:That farmer, the younger, he's brave, smart. He didn't fit in for a farmer. When I could bring him here, I would have done anything for him, as good as he is. And they work, as I say, everything fit together. I tell you, not like a farmer, but like a professor, you know, everything right. He told us ahead of time -- when we came in the ghetto -- I mean out of the ghetto, he brought us in in his house, and he didn't hear nothing. The poor farmer, his house was a smokehouse -- what they call? A smokehouse. Like the smoking ham or it's -- he had the oven without the chimney. And he get two little boys, very noisy, and for the boys are more worried -- scared more for them than I was scared for the big ones.

But first place he told the boys they should put us on the top of the oven. The oven is almost as big as half of that room, and it was nice and warm and comfortable, because it was cold, ice and snow, and he put us right under there. And we were asleep, and it was enjoyable sleep I ever had. But here comes in the farmer, and he start snooping. And he say, "Wait a minute. Who is here?" He asked the children if he knew whom to ask. The children they would tell him. The rest, we wouldn't tell him. "Who lives here? Who moved in here recently," he asked the kids and asked the farmer's wife. They say -- his wife ask him, "Why are you asking? What does that have to do with your business?" "No, here is city folks moved in. I smell. The smell is a city smell. And somebody, stranger, moved in. Who could move in?" He started figuring the people telling to the

room and whom you think could be? "It must be city lawyer. That's all. The lawyer come here." And it was me. You see, "The lawyer with Itska (ph)", Itska was her uncle, "they are the one moved up right here. They in that house," he tells the woman. Well, she send the kids right away to come home, his___. And he came, and she told them both the man's name or was here and what he said. He said, "We in trouble. We got to get out immediately," the farmer said, "for mine house. And let's take them to his sister's home." And that's what we did. And we going halfway, the sister, the bugs, the dogs start barking, carrying on. He says, "It's no good. The farmer was going with us to the people we were going. He told Edna, "We'll have to go to the Paskavitz (ph), to the people Paskavitzes." And they the only one in this situation they could help -- can help us, because the Gestapo wouldn't bother with them because their son-in-law the chief of police of Volitus (ph), a city. A small city, not a big one. And they -- and he's very tough, tough chief of police. And then they have to worry when people are find out, they'll go everywhere until his house, until -- to that chief they don't want to start it.

Well, everyone in this time was not kosher. Everybody will be taking it to the table, taking __, stealing, covering, all kind of mismatch of business was going on. But up to the chief of police. And then the farmer told Edna, "When you can go in in the house and tell the old lady who you are, then they'll do it. She'll do for you because of your mother." And her mother was already dead. Then he told the boys to watch out, not to go home, never go with him. The farmer took him around and let the boys go on around because it would maybe be caught and can be messed up. He was smart. And then every 5 -- every 10 minutes, the farmer used to lay down on the ground with the ears, and knew the movement from the Gestapo. The Gestapo was already looking for us. And when they -- they knew exactly where the Gestapo were, because the noise, the walk, when they been walking. It was wintertime and cold, and the snow was ice, and we go with boots on ice it's makes a noise which you can hear far away. And every half hour we used to lay down. We go into woods, and they say "Let's go. It's good. The dogs are

there," and they be giving us the plans on moving with us where the dogs are. The dogs were making the noise because the new strange people came in. They think the strange people they were after them. And it was not one, it was a bunch of police looking, because I was the dangerous one. Dangerous than the partisans, because partisans was living right there too in those woods, in the woods. It was thick woods and good____, and it what the partisans need. They live in there. And it's the way we moved up to the Paskavitzes. Edna knocks in the window, and "Who's there?" And Edna say -- mentioned her mother's name. "Don't know her." The old man comes up to the door, opens it a crack, and say, "Who you?" And she tells him she is Esther's -- Esther's daughter, and she want to talk with him. "Esther's daughter? Which Esther are you talking about?" Say "Esther from Slobodka, from Lithuania, that is my mother. And I am Hikki (ph)," they call it, yeah, "I am Hikki's daughter." "Oh, Hikki's daughter." They know who it is. They let us in home, she and her husband. Her son, second son died.

They had a daughter and a son. The son did not investigated what goes on in the village, because they knew each other. Every movement. Anything in a little village they knew.

Then he went out that night to report the mother and father what's happening in the village. And they come back the next day and reported that the Gestapo was looking for -- spent two hours checking, searching around the lake, although they had a round lake, and couldn't find them. Couldn't find nobody. And they dissolve it. They decided to move in another time. They didn't____--.- Two days they come again. And this time, they were very close to us, closer here, but there was not time even to get if you were laying right in the attic, laying the cover it up with all junk, with all hay and all that. But we -- he didn't even let us stay there no more. The farmer's brother-in-law took us from the attic. Edna and me and Jay, all three, out. He don't want even to have us close by. He's afraid that when we get caught, he'll be shot by the Gestapo. And they let out rumors more and more they were killing. It was true. They been -- the Germans around there caught a lot of underground people in those woods. And the only thing -- the only

salvation people had, the Germans were scared to death for the woods. For woods they were afraid, because they know with the underground is no place to play. They when they do a job, they do it. They blew up five train loads with soldiers right in this section.

It was a very worthwhile section for the underground, that even Moscow had been sending the partisans by plane in those sections. Well, and when we came to them, we could stay only three weeks and we had to move out again. Had it rough. That moving is terrible. Why we had to move? It was right before Christmas, and before Christmas all the families had got together for the holidays, and the people were laying there in a big bottom covered up in straw and hay, and we were afraid that the kids, that two small kids were came also, that they'll start getting noisy, and going upinthe___in daytime, they can find us. Then Paskefski -- Paskofski, I got ahold of Edna's uncle, and told him, I said, "Take us out of there. He's afraid to keep us." Because we could been -- all could get in dangers. We had to move out again from this place and go looking for another place. The only place we decide -- which I decided with Edna's uncle, it would be -- there was Paskavitzes was the first one, but this was Paskofski. This was two separate families. Another one, Paskofski. Paskofski was a very, very, very poor farmer, a very religious man. Nice man. And he done it anything for a reason. He didn't took from me -- didn't even want to take from me. I offered him money. I had a few gold pieces. I say, "Take it to him only at least one for memory for me." He took one. We used to sit down outside at night. The only conversation with each other. At 1:00 o'clock at night, and talking about the things, what's going on, what's happening in the world, with the fight, what with all the traveling, with the predicting when can we be liberated. Here we already have the war in Stalingrad. In Stalingrad with the Russians took the overhead, and they been already stopped. The German army to go forward and start already pushing them back. And I tell them the war. When we came then to Paskofski, we were a little happier. Why poor -- and nobody was looking for a poor farmer. Everybody -- the partisans came, they look for a partisan with money. A partisan with good -- buy

ammunition. And where they would find the ammunition? Right by the farmers. The farmers used to sell the ammunition. They used to come in, and -- the partisans, and to the farmers, and have the names and have everything they already knew also their investigation, through their investigation, what's happening. But Paskofski had two potato peats. And a potato -- you know what a potato peat? Ninety percent of the people don't know, never heard of it, they don't know what it is. But a potato peat, there we used to lay. I was one cuple days in the barn sleeping there. I wasn't safe. I couldn't sleep. I was scared all the time. Maybe somebody's coming in. And then I mostly staying right there. And then Paskofski also have a German shepherd, a dog, smart like a -- called him Vilgas (ph). I gave him a name Vilgas. Vilgas means wolf. And I been talking to him and eating together from one plate, bring him up and hand the bones, for the farmer had bones left over. Why, sometimes I went out with him to get soliciting help, soliciting food from the farmers. I used to go with Edna's uncle. He knew everybody. He knew where to go in and where to stay away from; which house there was a friend, and if there was an enemy right there; to know where to go, to watch their step and not to go. That's why we succeed, because Edna's uncle knew everything. Every step we do he say, "Don't worry. Come back." We used to come in the morning, he say, "You go and do your job." I say, "What's your job? He say, "Kill the lice." Ihate for-- ____ shower for months, and they were covered up with all this stuff. But then the only thing early in the morning a little sign of sun, a few rays came in, we stay in there and clean it up ourself that we should be able to wear another day. And but then -- and the rest of them, the uncle, all my cousins, we were 14 people in the two peats. And how I done the peats, one of them were apart from the other, like from this wall until here, it was a tunnel. A tunnel that used to be able to go in and out. To go to the tunnel, you had to -- on your belly, particularly for kids, you had to crawl up to the exit. And it wasn't such a easy job because we had five, three, five -- six kids, and they been for them it was there to play.

For Jay he was at that time five, he would crawl in there and crawl in here, who was

crawling faster. But I was scared to death that it could collapse. I didn't have any support. I put in a few branches, but that's all. And I said the ground could -- the sand could fell and killed the kids. And then I would be in trouble; they would be all over us dead. It was rough. And Edna, when you say that Jay listen to me. He had to listen.

And I told them, every one of them, that I am the boss. That they should know not play around, not to run around, because our lives depend on it. Finally the kids, after they understood I was right, they already been controlling theirself. When somebody been talking a little louder, the other kids would say, "You shut up. You keep quiet." And at night we used to go out and get some bread. And then when in day, in daytime, well, the woman got to go out after all, say person cannot be all the time, we have empty stomach.

And then we had to a fix up for that, too. A big bucket with all that outside and cover it up with potatoes, rotten, rotten potatoes. I made it that way that the rotten potatoes was high, and I'd been pulling with a string to opens it up a little opening, and all the rotten potatoes fills up the hole that you couldn't see the entrance And people been coming.

First thing, the dog used to take care of a lot of things. Never did let nobody to come in close by. I've been training him so that I didn't give him the bones unless he go and fix it up, get himself a place -- I did a job. I had some fun. And it worked. I've been talking to him like to a person, and he believes me. And I'm staying one evening, and I used to go out to fix the peats. It was around 10:00 o'clock at time and all the farmers are asleep, and I shouldn't get in any troubles by staying and digging. I wasn't careful enough, and it collapse on me. The sand from the _ peats got together in one spot and got wrapped to here in sand. It was terrible. I couldn't move. The first time I understood what it means being covered up with sand that is unable to move away nothing. I was staying in one spot. I couldn't even move a hand. Nothing. I couldn't even breathe, getting harder and harder to breathe. Vilgas was right with me. And I told Vilgas, "I'm in troubles. Go and bring me Paskofski. Go and bring me Paskofski." And I showed him a bone, and it cooked. And he come to get for a bone. I took the bone. "You go and bring him and

then I go give it to you." I been talking to him like I talk to a person. Anytime after I have a lesson with a dog, the dog takes off. Where he goes, I don't know. I told him, I said, "Go to the old man," the owner, the farmer. I said, "Wake him up." But he didn't.

What's happened, the farmer had a son, Stasook (ph). His name's Stacese (ph). That's he used to go -- every weekend go in the farm places, the music with ghettos, and go in there to dance and carry on. And passing by every time, automatically he used to pass by the peat. See how the dog didn't bother him. He knew him very well. And the dog seen Stasook Stacese coming up, and he jumped right on him and start pushing him. His paw back, and should go front, and said go to the peat. And Stacese understood something in trouble. "Who's in trouble? Tell me," he asked the dog. And the dog grabbed him from his coat, the coat, the side, and pulled me up to the hole to the peats where I been laying, and he dug me out. And I could move. I was a feeling like I got from dead to alive. It was a terrific. And I got out. Then he say, "Well, they'll make a meal." "Okay. We make a meal. I'll pay for it." We got a pig, and we had to smoke some for Jay. He loved Jay, give him something to eat. And that's the way we got out for a while. Now, the war came to Vilnius, and Vilnius from the place where the army, the Russian army was around 75 miles. And a week later, I seen the oldier. The soldier going clear up without a____, with holes, with all that. And Paskofski tell me, he say, "It's a Russian solder.

It's not a German. A German wouldn't go sloppy the way he's going." I say, "Wait a minute." I look a minute. I say, "Yeah, it's a German -- I mean Russian." I holler in the Russian language to him. He responds and come up to me. I ask him, "What you doing here? The Germans will kill you." "No, they wouldn't kill me." I say "What do you mean?" He say, "My army somewhere around here. They full now here around. Don't worry. Nothing going to happen to you, too." He knew right away. I told him how I got up there, and I sounded potato peats and all that stuff. And I say, "Now I got to find -- tell me, where is your captain? I want to talk to a captain, to anybody." He say, "Let me first find him." I don't know about the Russian army. They go fight with the Germans

and they don't know one from each other. But finally they come up, and he was one of the Jewish captain. And I told him who I am, how I come here, and what's is here, and who's Paskofki. And to be sure, he asked me a certain prayer, a Jewish prayer. I said, say, it's a song, it's -- the captain, Russian captain say, "I repeat it." I say, "All right. You okay. Now I know you're not the enemy. I am not afraid for you. You're not do me any harm." And he say, "Where are you going?" And I tell him I want to go -- the first thing to go to the ghetto to see maybe somebody from my family is alive.

Q:Can I stop you here?

A:Uh-huh.

Q:I want to ask you some more questions about this time you were in hiding before you go back to your ghetto.

A:All right.

Q:If you don't mind.

A:Okay.

Q:So this period when you were in hiding lasted until when? Would you remember about the date approximately?

A:lt could be to August Ist, 1943.

Q:"45?

A'45.

Q:"44. I'm sorry.

A:Oh, "44, right. "44.

Q:So you were really in hiding from December through till August about?

A:Something like that, right.

Q:About eight months or something?

A:Right.

Q:And in this time when you were in this hole, how did you get food? What did you do every day?

A:L used to go out with Edna's uncle made arrangements with me. We going out soliciting.

What we've been doing, at night about where I was going through, he knew the way, the place there, the woods, going to farmers whom he knew, he knew very, very well. He didn't have to be afraid for them. He go and knock on their door, on the window. And they'll let him know by that knock that this is Itska, that is the farmer, Edna's uncle, and let us in. And we've been buying from them. He be used to buy mostly a young calf and killed it, cleaned it, and something to eat, smoke some, and use it for food, and that's what we been eating. Bread, I used to say to the farmer, you know, you've never seen.

It's very interesting. Two large racks, one on top of the other, and you carry the wheat

and make flour out of it. And then we put it right in the oven and make bread. We had plenty to eat. It was no problem as long as we could go out and bring in.

Q:And so you went out at night?

A:At night.

Q:Where was this oven? You mean in the farmer's house?

A:Yeah, farmer's house.

Q:So you had water and you had food and --

A:We had -- we had everything. We didn't -- about food was no problem. It was no problem even in hiding, because -- but you got to be careful. You couldn't be reckless. I couldn't stay there. The farmer was tired also not doing nothing. I was tired not doing nothing.

Then the farmer, I seen here now the same thing, got two long sticks. And I got one, he got one, and we work hand in hand. It was very, very, interesting, and it's a good exercise. He sworn over the coal. I was the one -- and then we cutting the wheat and knocking it out and getting out the little -- what they call it in English? What they fill -- the cover is filled with it. The wheat is filled. The weights. Well --

Q:Chap?

A:Yeah, right.

Q:What did you all -- okay. What did you do during the daytime?

A:Sleep. And Edna and I couldn't do nothing. And it's enough hard work. My uncle will never forget. He used to tell me, "You see, take a look at how bad people we are. The human being is terrible. You take and you beat up a horse. You don't go fast enough or you don't pull strong enough, and then you get whipped and kicked and all that. Move, move, up the hill. We got enough -- abig ___ holler at him to get up the hill. We didn't go about it. We didn't -- we complained to the horse and we whip him with the whip. "And now we are the horses. You are the horse and I am the horse. And now how is it? How it feels?" He asked -- he been asking me how it feel being a horse. I say, "Yeah, I'll never forget it being that horse." Yeah.

Q:We need to change the type right now. Okay?

End of Tape 3

Tape 4

Q:You had mentioned that there were partisans in this same area, and I was wondering whether you had contact with any of them. But before -- I just want to clarify, where was this area exactly?

A:Zezmer. Zezmer. It is a little town. It was one street, people living in one street. And there it was between Vilnius and Kaunas. And there is a lot of woods, and it's the only place we had to pick, because the Germans was afraid for the woods. The woods is a trap for them. They were scared to death. When they already were in the woods and you seen a German group, even a battalion, could be 500, you don't have to worry about it. They don't go fight. They scared. They look for another place for to run. And it's what happened also with them. And we were -- every time we heard -- we heard a shot, we were jumping for joy, because we seen here is Hitler getting beat and here we -- our time to be free is so close that you just touch it. And he already seen the Russians plane right over our head. You see that Paskofski had a lake, there's a lake on his land. And we went there to swim and to lay in the sun. It was foolish of us, too. We could get shot. A German plane could seen here we're having a good time laying in the sun, and here we got to still fight a war. It they can shoot us.

Q:You did this while you were in hiding?

A:In hiding. It done like a fool, didn't know what to do. I just was worried. And I told Eejicka (ph), I say, "Why are you in there?" He was heading there on teaching the children. You see, he didn't had nothing to do, and the kids he want to get educated. He didn't have any books. They didn't know the alphabet. Nothing. He only worked from the prayer book it's what they had. He teach these boys how to read the alphabet. And what he done,

they been sitting under a little hole, and there was a ray to -- a ray from the sun coming down, and it's a wide clear place, and there he was sitting with these two boys, and he was teaching the bible. And I tell him, "I am going to take a swim." He say, "Don't need a swim." Well, but I done it. I done to the lake. The next day I was smarter. I talk to Paskofski, and I told him, "Would you make me a bath?" And he done. He laugh a little.

Isay,____. What he done, he took rocks he had, he put the rocks with wood, special wood in with the rocks, which red hot from the heat, and there he been___ and giving me -- we used to say a shoulder, a cold shoulder make warm. And it was just the best, best moment in my life. Many people ask me what I felt and what I want and what I used to at that moment. I say the hottest and enjoyable and best thing that happened to me is getting the bath by Paskofski. It give me -- it was terrific. And then one day, I am sitting there. I am walking in my office, and I take a look at farmer's wife crying, carrying on. I say, "What's the matter, Mrs. Paskofski?" She say they locked up her husband. I say, "Who locked up?" She say, "The Russian commander. They locked him up. They say he don't want to go in the army." I say, "Tell him he's crazy." Paskofski was a man already in the 70s, don't want to go in the army. I say, "Let's go. We'll take him out.

Don't worry. Don't cry. I'll get him back." I took and I had a jeep, put her in the jeep, and I went back to the place where we were in hiding. And I got in Zezmer, in one of the places between Vilnius. And I told them, I say -- I tell them who I am, and I came in here to get Paskofski out. I say, "Why are you taking and arresting a man who is already 70, time already to die, and you lock him up because they find out a hiding place?" The man say that -- that captain, I don't know what, the major. He say, "Well, you know what he done?" I say, "He didn't done nothing." He say, "What do you mean done nothing? He took a bunch of drunks," and he say, "put them in a hole that they shouldn't go. They had to go register for the army. They didn't went to register for the army; they went to drink right there in the peats where -- what you build. And the first thing I don't know is you done it." I say, "Why are you doing?" I say, "Ask my question. How it looks and what

you want to know. I ain't going to let you know from the peat, if the peat is right or is a wrong peat." Well, and this gave me -- I say, "All right. Tell me what if -- what is in that place and what is that place." I had to make a plan, and hey let him out. And then I got Paskofski out. I say, "Don't go out. I'll take you back." And it's 50 miles almost. I took him back. And anyway, I got Paskofski. Now Stasook, his son, he's the one that start the troubles. He told the neighbors that is the refugees running and hiding in here. They been there and they messed it up and he get blamed. But they took him in the army.

Q:Well, I was asking you if when you were in hiding before the liberation you had contact with any of the partisans in the area. Did you ever run across them?

A:Yeah, run across them, but it wasn't much. They -- they -- in that area, they used to come regular routine to get food. And they been telling -- find out there's a rich farmer, he got lot of meat, a lot of butter and all that stuff, they been asking. They told him they go pay when you want to go pay, but you got to have food to eat and they got a lot of children, and it was a lot of groups, big groups. And then the farmer wasn't so anxious to give, and he told him a couple times, I say, "They don't want any monkey business. They want food. They're not -- they'll take it alone. When they'll take, they'll take everything that goes." And they settled and they gave them food to eat. And it wasn't such terrible. But they were ready to fight with what killed a lot of them. The -- not the Lithuanians -- not the Germans, but the Lithuanians. The Lithuanians say, "Woods doesn't mean nothing, because they live in the woods. The Germans didn't go. And the men -- there was five explosions that let the railroad go, breaking the rail and been blown up.

Q:So this was all going on around you?

A:Yeah.

Q:Did it give you hope? Was it encouraging?

A:Yeah, that give me hope. I was encouraged already before, because the shooting was going around already so close, but beyond there, what -- what's happened? The Germans had that part of occupied, and they been there having all kind of whiskey. Was a distillery from vodka, and they big drunkards. And when they came to that place, the Russians, they start drinking, and been drinking for three days, and got so drunk they were laying like dead. And they didn't know what was going on at that time. The Germans come back and they really give them some blows and they lost a lot of soldiers, the Russians. And this messed up -- messed up the ghetto, because they were so close to get to Kovno. Everybody was so anxious. And Golub also, Tory, talk with the Miller from the Gestapo, and beg them and offer them a big amount of money, and told him to help see that his life will be protected, that nobody will touch them. But Miller didn't go.

Didn't took it.

Q:Okay. Let's -- now we can -- unless you have more to say about the hiding period.

A:No, it's most of the hiding period.

Q:Did you pray a lot or no?

A:I didn't have from what to pray. I didn't have no books. I prayed. I did pray.

Q:You thought God would help you out?

A:Right. It was a nice, young man. He reminds me of what is it? Christ. Tall, nice looking young man was with me in the working spot right by the place where the German army been moving out from Lithuania already back to Germany. The army all been pulling. It was a nice size, not too big, but it was a nice size. And they pass by this part where we worked with the young man, his name was Settleson (ph), and myself. We were there around 30 people. Our work was to rifemeister. Rifemeister. I'd been a place of fixing ammunition.

Q:Yeah.

A:And we been staying and cleaning them. And he knew the place. And the boy -- and when he had -- made that a place to hide, dugged out the hole and stayed there, and he was already lucky. The army had been going passing by, the German army. And the German soldier, who was one of our workers, who worked with us to Gilligan's (ph) place, knew -- got in in the place. Maybe want to get a drink of water, maybe was looking for Mendleson. I don't want what it was. But Wilson, the neighbor, told me that. And he shot him in the back and killed him the last minute of the liberation. And he was a tall, nice young man.

And no luck, and finished.

Q:When you went -- you told me that the Russians came in, you met them, and your first thought was you wanted to go back to Kovno.

A:Uh-huh, the ghetto.

Q:So after you -- after the Russians liberated you, you went back to Kovno with them?

A:No. I went by myself. I didn't need nobody. I ran; I didn't walk. Everybody was too slow for me. I was flying.

Q:By yourself?

A:By myself to the ghetto. People saying, "What's the matter, man? What's you running?" I told Mr." Wilson, it was a man who let me stay in his house, oh, a couple nights before I got settled in Kaunas. But in the meantime, I went -- I went there by myself and I run in the ghetto. I knew I had to see a picture. I see it, and it was terrible stage for my eyes.

Here is laying a hiding place with the man Monkey (ph), Monk's hiding place. The name -- they call the nickname Monk. And he had the best possibility to make a hiding place, because they had a money, they had the material, and he done it. And you couldn't find the place nowhere to search. That's where he was. My mother, she still was in his hole too, because they told me in ghetto yet that my mother, "Don't worry about your mother.

She got the best place. She got the Monk's Melina," they call it. And it was too hard to find it. Nothing. I went brick by brick, piece by piece, looking around inside, in the peat.

Couldn't find nothing. I had to leave. I had to ask the people, maybe the neighbors, maybe they know. They say, well, they don't know what's happened. Could be it was a lot of fire going on. When they used to find out the place that people didn't report to go by train back to Germany, they used to put them on fire, burn them up. And here is one.

Another one was Vinetrop (ph), was another hiding place. And they say it's only a question of minutes they'll be liberated. They were all full of hope that they'll be released, but it didn't work that way. And there was maybe about 10 people, they laying outside of the ghetto. They also been put the place in the hiding on fire, but they start running and been shot and been killed and be laying. There was a young girl, a friend of mine -- her father was a friend of mine, laying in front. His father and mother all burned.

And here going around -- and then people, funny, going around. A woman with a big

stick, with a long piece of metal at the end, and digging in the groundlooking. I say, "What you doing?" He say, "I'm looking for the Jews" gold," it was the answer. Well, and come back.

Q:The fires were still going?

A:Some of them was glowing underneath, yeah. Not -- it was all burned up. It was nothing left.

But some of them were still. And one -- one was lucky. They did now. Hoop (ph) was a rabbi, and the elf (ph) people, two handymens (ph) been hiding under a brick and under cement blocks. A homes built on cement hard blocks. And they were -- they're laying in the basement. And also hided entrance that nobody -- or somebody will come and see and say, "No way to go in here. Nobody's there." But the building collapsed, and all of them survived by miracles. They were hollering and hollering from the outside. There was one rock keep the people up, don't let them to be squished. And they got out.

Somebody helped them. I was in there at that time, too. Yeah. It was awful. Then I came back looking for my sister's furniture. My sister just got married and she bought beautiful veneer, a bedroom set and a living room. And there was a Lithuanians, and she gave it to them to hold it. Who'll come first. If she'll come first, she'll take it back or I'll take it back or I'll buy it. It was beautiful furniture. But I come up to the building. It was just a brand new building being built by a professor from Lithuania, from the university.

And it was a old woman left. They all disappeared, the people who lived in that house, but I had to find the furniture. You could see the table was stained. The coffee was still steaming, still going like steam. And ham and eggs and good -- a good meal. They ate and left it half eaten, didn't have time to finish to eat and they run off. And they run away and stay away for three months. Finally, get them back. Was no use for me to keep there, so I could go and buy me a home.

Q:So you went -- did you then go back and get Edna and Jay?

A:Yeah, right. They still were in the farm there by her uncle. I went back and got them, brought them. And I went to work to my job. You see, I was the second time under the Russians in that time. I got my job as a dispatcher. And then I was the Jewish Council working for the different kind of trials with the communists and the people. And I had problem with the survivors. A lot of girls came back, I think -- did I told you that? See it was concentration camp come back, people to Lithuania, to Kovno, to Slobodka, come looking for their parents, for their relatives. And it wasn't a job that was easy to find, but finally we got them together. I was in charge of candy factories. I was in charge of cakes. All this stuff, I was in charge of it. I had special groups in room, and we used to bake it and make it and sell it. And when the Russian people used to get cards, card system. They getting for cards so many pounds of sugar, or for so many pounds of sugar you getting so many pounds of candy. And that's the way I used to divide that everybody should get it. Comes a holiday, I used to work it out that they should have some sweets for the holidays. But then they start fighting with each other. Woman fight with each other. It's a job, and I am in the middle. And what I done, I took -- I had to separate -- separate. You a Jewish lady, you stay in that part of the table or that room, and you work in that room, and don't let them fight with each other.

Q:You're talking about the Jewish people and the Lithuanian people --

A:Right.

Q:-- that were working for you?

A:Right.

Q:Okay.

A:But I kept them separated. They couldn't have been fighting with each other. They were -- in a way I can't blamed them. They were hungry. They had been eating the raw dough. I could see they're eating it. I say, "You'll get sick." No. They were -- anyhow, they reported, and in come -- the year, the Gestapo, they go and in come -- in come the criminal police. And they called me in and give me a warning. I say one more time and I go get caught, I'll -- they send me Siberia. And I have no business to mingle in government business. They were right, but I didn't have no choice. They were --

Q:Now, why did they think -- what were you doing wrong?

A:Well, I didn't have the right to give away the sugar and give away the candies when they got to give for Russians by the Russian government. The Russian been giving it out. It comes -- somebody come with tickets, and tickets like here we have in the cards.

Q:Uh-huh.

A:Well --

Q:How did you get this job?

A:From --

Q:When you came back, how did you get hired for this job?

A:I had the job already in 1940 before the war. Before the war was the Russians, the communists, together with the Germans together divided Lithuanian in half. Half of Lithuanian Poland belonged to the Russians and half --

Q:I thought then you were working for a transportation cooperative?

A:Right. That was already later. This was before. But later they were the cooperative with the horse and buggy. I worked for them, and they helped me to get my job.

Q:Oh, they helped you to get your job after the war?

A:Right, after the war.

Q:I see. Now, let me just ask you a

Q: When you went back to Kovno, did you -- did you ever think maybe I don't want to go back there?

A: Where?

Q:After the war --

A:Right.

Q:-- did you think maybe I should not go back to Kovno, things were very bad when I left?

A:This doesn't bother me. I had a good job. I didn't -- and I didn't want to go. I want to go back. I want to find out what's happened to my family, where was closest my family. I was so anxious. And the people used to come and tease me and teasing Edna saying, "I

met you mother back in Kennicksburg. I met your sister." We were thinking it's true. I say, "Well, we're going in Kovno and we go find out." I came in Kovno and I see the Jewish girl go around to the Gestapo man. It was the captain from the brigade -- from Sunsulaga (ph) there. They had a laga, what they call it? A place of work that was a factory, and they been working at the factory. And I don't remember the -- how it was in the details. I had to give up.

Q:But you didn't find your family. Were the Lithuanians -- when you came back, did the Lithuanians treat you okay?

A:Yeah. I think I had no troubles. They wouldn't treat me, I wouldn't get a job. I got a job. I didn't have any problems at all. But the Lithuanians with the Jewish girls been fighting.

And then I got five drums of gasoline came in. I said, "What is that for?" He say they don't know. I got to take it. I've been allocated five drums of benzine for the trafay (ph)," which means the . And I need to go and find a machine or anything to get in Germany for home. I said have enough gasoline, trucks are no problem. I said get it and bring it back. They call it a trafay. And that's the way it was with me. Icame home. I start looking for family. I couldn't find nobody. Decide to move on. And then I had problem. I say, no place for me to stay. I came to Munich. And in Munich I --

Q:Was it easy to get to Munich?

A:It wasn't easy. I worked to move to Munich. It wasn't easy.

Q:Tell me about the journey. How did you get out?

A:I get out -- when I got a job, went to the Russian. I stayed there and worked with them enough till the girls start fighting, and I decide I go separate them. One group here and one go there and there be peace. And I put on a big sign, "No vacancies." I don't have any work.

They shouldn't bother me, so let me work. And they reported, and they come -- the Russian city police, and they come and run to me and they say, "Who give you the right" -- and I didn't like that -- "to say who should live" -- I mean, "who should be the boss over the factory and who not. You do what the government tells you to do. Don't do any wrong. Here is you got to know is a Russian system, a communist system. It's not a capitalistic way of doing it." And they lay me out and put me in jail. And here I am laying there. My luck was that the office was -- the office girl was a sister of one of my bosses for the Russians whom I was working, and she went and called up her brother and told him that I am locked up. And here my boss was a Russian captain, come up. He say, "What you doing here? What's happened?" I say, "I don't know. They locked me up." "For what?" I say, "They say I bought -- for gas, I bought a truck. I had to have a truck. What good is for me four drums of gasoline when I don't have any truck?" And this is the way the system works for the Russians. And they say, "Wait a minute. They cannot tell you what to do, buy or not buy." And it was a general came up and he needs the gas, and you got the truck, and you got a merchandise he wants. "I need your gas to swap you for a truck," and I got a opal (ph) car -- I mean an opal truck, a ton and a-half ton, for two drums of gasoline. Then I had transportation around __, got two and a mechanic. And everybody were working. Nobody was looking for jobs, and I gave them jobs. But a girl report me, what I was doing. I told her -- I told them everybody, I say, "Comes the holidays, I'll give everybody candy. Everybody have a kilo of candy. But they should live in peace. They shouldn't fight with each other." And it didn't help. And my boss come around one night, he say, "You know, you better run." A communist tells me I should run. I say, "What you mean?" He say," , yourun from here. They're going to take you in Siberia tonight. You watch. They'll come after

you." And I -- then I had a truck, and I ran off. Come to Munich, me and Edna and Jay.

I didn't stay no more home. I was afraid. And I told Edna, I say, "We are in a certain place. We got to run away from the Russians." They come to -- they come to -- they came to me, and they got me a job right there working for J.D.C., American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee.

Q:Okay. Well, let me ask you a couple of questions about Kovno after the war, if you don't mind. Did the Jewish community there start to rebuild itself?

A:After the war?

Q:Yeah. When you were working there under the Russians.

A:In Vilnius or in --

Q:In Kovno.

A:Yeah, that's long. It wasn't -- there wasn't so many. They all come in two and three at a time from Dachau, from Auschwitz, come into Kaunas. And it was with nobody all in terrible shape, all broken up, all in pain, everybody crying. It was -- it was terrible. And they couldn't build themself up, so they got to forget for a while. I been discussing with doctors what I do when I have certain problems, and they told me, this will take a little while. Let them cool off. Don't worry about it. They'll straighten themselves up.

They'll stop fighting, because it be livelihood involved. But it took a little while when they start to straighten theirself out.

Q:So you got to Munich --

A:And from Munich --

Q:-- and you got a job with the Joint Distribution Committee. What were you doing for them?

A. Transportation officer. I was in charge over the trucks and cars. And see, it was so many cars and trucks left over in Europe, that Eisenhower decided to leave it in Europe. He don't need them in the States. Cost him more money to transfer them over than to get rid of them. And he say, "Here, you can take the trucks," and he gave the American Joint Distribution Committee. I had 30 trucks together with jeeps. And when speakers used to come from the States talking about the future for humanity and all that, and I used to get -- take my own jeep, send the speaker to Landsberg, to Feldafing, to all of the German cities. And they been gradually build themselves these communities. I also came in at Munich here, they didn't have a synagogue.

And I decided got to do it, to build a synagogue for the kids to go to school. And I went to the head man of the -- of where my American Joint Distribution Committee sexton works. Told him, "How can we be without synagogue, without a school? I need a school and synagogue." They say, "Go to the governor. The governor will give it to you." I say, "Are you joking?" They say, "I'm not joking. Go ahead." I went to the governor, and I didn't know what's all about.

I knocked on the door. I open up the door, and here I seen a big, heavy set man with a cigar sitting there, and also a German girl sitting next to him, and he asked the girl, he say, "Ask him what he wants." And she asked me what I want. I said, "I need a permit to build a synagogue in the English garden." "Is there a section?" "A beautiful section," I say. "There is a place for the , and I would like it to get a permit." Then the governor -- the person to send the man, I said, "You should go with me in the P.X. and get cards and come with me to buy $500 P.X. and build a synagogue." And I told the girl, I say, "Tell him it's not enough, 500. I need more money." He looked at me. "Look," he say, "I not a banker. I don't have any money to give away, and don't bother me. I gave you $500. You want now -- I give you for a synagogue. Now you want a synagogue and a school." Well, and I say, "Well, tell the girl, tell her $1,000 a piece" And I

build my -- for the kids a school. And it was I married off two of them who was working for me,

and that is the way life. Life started to get interesting back.

Q:So you worked with -- did you work with some of the D.P. camps around there?

A:Sure, with --

Q: With Landsberg?

A:-- Landsberg. Landsberg, Feldafing. Well, I got all those places.

Q:What was the situation? Were they pretty well organized or --

A:Yeah.

Q:Landsberg, some of these camps?

A:Yes, sure, with the help from the United'States. The United*States used to send up speakers, teachers. Yeah, they used to send up help. They been organizing good. Then to the majority was going to Israel. And --

Q:But now this was before 1948; so how did they get to Israel?

A:No, it was after "48.

Q:It was after "48?

A:Right. Before -- before 1948 there was -- there was not --

Q:I know, but when you were there, it was before 1948.

A:Oh, yeah, right.

Q:Were people able to go to Israel at that time?

A: Illegal.

Q:Did you have any involvement with that?

A:I was -- as I said, I was in charge of . means to breaking in. I was in charge of it because I had the trucks. I used to get them out a Triptic (ph), and ride into go into Berchtesgaden. And this was there that document. They didn't have nothing. And then when they caught them, the person, they didn't caught them so easy. It was once I been caught, arrested, got out. Why? Because they told the M.P. that they got lost. They were going to Landsberg, and the way to Landsberg was wind up to Feldafing or the going to -- what is the other one? Stutthof. And they wind up to Constance (ph). That was the place. And that's the way they got a lot of Jews came into Israel, because of me. I gave -- they didn't know that I would be bringing them up _., paying them, and taking them out, bringing them to Munich.

Q:So you were using money from the Joint Distribution Committee to --

A:To build --

Q:-- to help them get --

A:To help -- to help. From the Joint Distribution Committee, I couldn't. It was belong to the government, and it been given to me in P.X. P.X. was special dollars. It wasn't the regular dollar bills like we have. The soldiers in the army got a P.X. was a place for dollar bill.

Q:And I'm just a little confused.

I understand that you were providing trucks --

A:Right.

Q:-- so that they could travel. And you understood their plans and their routes and all of that?

A:Right. I used to bring -- mostly they went to Constance. Constance was in Austria, a port city, and an illegal movement was going right from Constance. They only had to bring the people right there. You bring them there, from there no more problem because along them both, they going. After they been straighten out between the payments, it was my business. This is organizations been handling the how to get it food, how to get it all paid for it. It was their job.

Q:Did -- did the Joint Distribution Committee or the U.S. military government, did any of these people know what was going on and they just let it happen?

A:Sure, they know. Some of them keep their eyes closed, didn't watch. The only thing I had, yeah. In Munich they come to me, and they say that the mayor and the governor for Munich find out. I'll tell you how he find out. I belong to Naborite (ph) at that time.

Naborite is also a Jewish organization that helps the poor, and they were active. And they came to me and they say, "Look, we got a job. We need three trucks very bad, because I got to transport Jews to go to Israel, and we got to have the trucks." Well, I told them, "Why don't you go to Schwartz," George Schwartz, was the head man from Paris. "Go to Schwartz and talk with him." He say, "I've been already to Schwartz, and Schwartz tell me, he say, go and talk to Ipson. And don't come to me, and please don't mention my name." He was scared to death. He say, "Ipson already went in the concentration camp. He's not afraid, but I'm afraid. I don't want that." Well, and jeep come, takes me to the governor. I didn't know where it was. Takes me to the governor who I was before. And I told him, I said, "Governor, you put me in trouble." He say, "I put you in trouble?" He say, "What kind of troubles I did?" I say, "Now, look. Now, my M.P. want I should give him jeeps with ___, with the roof," because a jeep -- an army jeep was open. And I say, "I got to have it with the roof. And, "I don't have any." I say, "I don't have any either. From where I want, you can get it. I tell you what I'll do. I got three trucks. Each truck, a jeep. Each jeep you put me a roof, you get your truck back." And that's what I done. I put in three roofs; I got three trucks back. And then he tells me -- in Munich. This was I came in Israel, and I became the chairman of the Naborite.

They come and want to elect there is a man from Florida. They say they don't want me.

Iam_____and belong in Richmond. I have nothing to do with Florida. And we went to the election, got to be elected. Well, I mean, when I start talking about my -- what I done and I'd like to get a job as district commissioner, and then screwed up. I say, "Mr. President -- Mr."Chairman, I know that man. He was from the one of the Naborite people." He say, "You know me? I don't know you." I say, "Yes, I know you. You don't know me." He say, "Well, what do you want me to do?" "Nothing. I want that you should let me speak to the people to talk about him." Well, he say, "All right. Tell you what I'll do. After I'll finish, then you come in and speak and talk to the people as long as you want." It comes -- he starts speaking and he spoke for me. I didn't even speak to

them and I got elected. But when he -- before he start, I say, "Wait a minute. Don't -- I can let you speak, but first explain to the people from where you know me, what I done to you." And I start telling them about all the trucks and all the jobs and what I -- with emigration, with all that mess, and I got elected. He came to Edna, he say "I got to congratulate you. Your husband won the election. He say, "You bet your wife got excited." He was the governor from Munich. A big job. I didn't even know about it. I didn't know what a governor got to do with it. And then when they heard it was the governor from Munich, it was finished. I won it. Yeah.

Q:How long did you stay in Munich?

A:Two years.

Q:Three years. And now, did I understand that you also were in Nuremberg, that you went --

A:Yeah, right. Right.

Q:What -- why did you go there? What --

A:Well, Benger Young (ph) -- you know Benger Young was? Benger Young used to come each time, and he used to go to Basel, to the congress. He used to stop at Munich to see the like that, the survivors. And there have been talking with all kind of dreams, what he could do and what Israel got. And like it's his work, working for Israel. Well, then he came one day and then the trial in Nuremberg was going on. He say he wants to see the trial in Nuremberg. Well, very interested, so for some reason he wants to learn, know what's Gearington (ph), Gibbleson (ph), all the murders, what they done. Well, I told him, "Go and speak to a Dr. Blumolitz (ph). He'll give you already a good car, and you

go over there." Then I say, "You can do it." Isay, "Okay." I had a old Jewish taxi. I had a taxi. I was staying there by the airport all the time. I say -- and he can't forget. I say, "Alta (ph)" -- Alta was his name, "I got a job for you." He say, "What is that?" And I say, "A job to take this gentleman, Mr." Benger Young, and take him to Nuremberg.

You'll go and Karken (ph)," and Karken was the man from the storage room, "he'll give three canisters benzine. They should last, and Mr. Benger Young and you into Nuremberg." They go. Then, that's try to -- Alta, looked him over, you had to see, exam him from one end to the other, Benger Young. And he say, "I am sorry. I don't go with that snower (ph)." You know what a snower? He say, "I don't going with that snower.

Huh-uh. You get somebody else. I don't want it." From anytime that I get it with somebody with American Jew gives me a jeep, that snower, I got to give him a jeep. He don't have nothing. I felt terrible, you know, doing that first to Benger Young. He don't know who Benger Young was. Anyway, I explained to Benger Young. He was hot.

And I say, "Well, tell you what you do. I'll go by myself when I take you to Nuremberg." He say, "You would? The big boss by himself will go take me to Nuremberg?" I say, "No. What I am doing, tomorrow morning you get ready. I'll tell me wife that I'm going away for Nuremberg and I'll be away for two days, and I'll come back and then I will be with them," and fine. And I went by myself with Benger Young to Nuremberg. I came within Nuremberg, and I told Benger Young, I said, "Look, we make a deal. I am taking you to Nuremberg and take you back to Munich, but you got to know one thing. We got to do it in one day, and -- number one. And number two, I want to be in the courthouse.

I want to see it also, and you promise me a ticket." "We're going. Everything is on." I say, "Promise." Okay. In Nuremberg, I got a ticket, and they took me in right away.

And Benger Young come out, ask me to go in with him. They had to open up the door.

The M.P.s was very happy. Okay. Trial is over. It was not over. It was postponed because it was going another five weeks. And I told Benger Young, "We got to move.

We cannot stay. We got to go home. It's getting dark." Benger Young say, "Don't

worry." I say, "What you mean, don't worry? I got to have transportation." He say, "We'll sleep in the jeep." "You think it's summertime now? What do you want, to die?

Uh-huh, no going in the jeep." Well, finally I got another car, ss, aGerman__s, it's a German -- like a Cadillac. And I took with that car the like. "Yeah, I don't care. I could sleep in the car." I said, "Wait a minute. Let's go try it." I had cigarettes in the glove compartment, and I came into first hotel, and there stay a German behind the desk.

And I told them, I say, "Look, I need a room with two beds. And when you go give me, I give you a pack of cigarettes." Then the German say, "I have only one room on the third floor, and it's the only one you can get. I don't have another one." I say, "Wait a minute.

Let me take a look." I run up upstairs, took a look. I say, "Well, we can sleep. That would work." Come down, and I told Benger Young, I say, "Look here. I got one room with one bed. Come and take a look. When you okays it, you have it. You can go my bed. I'll sleep on the floor. I'll sleep on the armchair right in here." He come up. He took a look. Hesay,"__."_ It is in Jewish. When it is a flag is imnay sip dice (ph)", anywhere the dice. And that's when he does when it's in emigration we couldn't get a bed, just anyplace is good. And I gave him the cigarettes and he gave me the room. And there Benger Young took and moved it up closer to the armchair like this without the arms straight, and made a bed and we slept. Not knowing -- next morning I was in Munich. AndI seen the Nuremberg trials.

Q:What was it like going into the Nuremberg trial?

AzIt's unbelievable to see all the murderers, the faces. Goring and Frick and all the rest of them.

It's very, very, very -- I would say you seen the murderers in front of you. You see where they killed so many people. It's -- it was unbelievable. I couldn't believe it. Benger Young was still was asking an explanation, but I forgot.

Q:When you were working in Munich, were you working -- did you have to do business with a lot of German people?

A:Only ones who fix the -- build the temple, synagogue. That's only with them. And if you got a couple buildings, they claim the buildings. Then I had a repair shop to repair the cars and trucks, and then I had Germans doing that.

Q:But it's no problem?

A:No, it was no -- with me it was no problem. They knew they had cigarettes they could get.

They had the opportunity -- I had to have a door. Pack of cigarettes I got me a door. The Germans knew everything, where it lays, everything, where -- the longer, whose it is.

Q:So you stayed in Munich for two years?

A:Right.

Q:Now, did you -- had you tried to get out or where did you want to go?

A:I want to go in Israel. It was my plane -- my plan was to go to Israel. And because I was in brought up in that atmosphere. I went in high*school, so I went every day and all that. I was in Israel a few times, and I loved Israel. And the way to go in legally, I want. I didn't want to go in illegally, because, well, with a small child. And I decide anything I'll do to go to Israel. Well, England gave out 1500 certificates for the legal emigration, not the illegal, and been divided with all of the organization, with Musraki (ph), the Zionists, and the labor, and the Epsonists (ph), all the groups. All of them want me to go to Israel.

Because I made a deal, I talk with Benger Young, and we're going to Israel to open up a

transportation office in American style. We buy trucks and all that mess. And the plan would work when I could have a little help. And I came to -- to go to Israel, they took away one certificate if you worked all over less two. If it weren't for Jay; it weren't for my wife. And I come back home after work and I told Edna, I'm not excited. I say, "Now, look, we're going to Israel next week." I say, "What you mean?" I say, "Here I got the certificate. Got from England, got legal -- legally." Isay,"____, where the third one?" She got hot and got into Goldman (ph). He's the big man in that time from the Jewish agency. She got into the Jewish agency and start carrying on, and she say "Hitler didn't separate us; you don't go separate us." You don't ever dare -- nerve to separate me and her after the war. Hitler couldn't do it, and she say you want to do.

Forget it. Iam going to America. You don't want to take us there, just forget it then.

She took us -- she didn't even told me. The girls that was working there in Munich and they helped her. And they had asked her she hold out her application. She had a uncle and aunt with the Pepsi-Cola plant here in Richmond belong to him. And he was a supporter for the Senator Byrd. And Senator Byrd came to -- he called him up, and he say, "Look, I help you, but I'm not a wealthy man now, but you got to help me at this time the way I want. I got a nephew. He's now in Munich. He wants to come. So we got to have a certificate, a visa for them." He didn't know how many want, and he wrote to Byrd. And Byrd went to for to Yonkers and got three visas -- I mean two visas, not three. And we didn't answer -- or enter with only -- what can we do with only two? We need the third one. Well, until the war to end, it came from the States. It came in a visa for me and for Edna and for Jay. And it was too late. And I was so upset. I want to go there and I wind up here. And upset, and the way it went. Sometime, you know, it's not up to you.

Q:So you came here in what year?

A:In 1947. 50 years it been two years. 50 years in America.

Q:When you arrived, you arrived in New York, yes?

A:Right.

Q:Do you remember what your first impressions were?

A:First impressions?

Q:Of America.

A:l'll never forget. There was this central office in Munich and there was one refugee hall. A guy -- young man, comes into New" York with the bruke (ph) sack on his shoulders and looks around the big buildings. And he say, "le gullis, le gullis (ph)." He say for one gullis -- you know what a gullis is? I don't know if I got -- if I got it bad language.

Q:Sorry.

A:Well, it's all right. Gullis and -- aspera (ph). From the aspera to the aspera. And then it's another one. Here he goes in with the same bruke sack. He comes in New York free -- I mean in Israel free, because a big shot, and he say, "From aspera to freedom." And it makes a difference between one and the other.

Q:And that's what how you felt when you arrived in New" York?

A:Right. Right. Right.

Q:You felt that you were still in the --

AI feel even right here. It is good. It's cold, fine, beautiful, terrific, but I still miss it. It is a still going on there what -- it's all strained now. To every nation got to deal with all their problems. And you know, the problem what's happened, it's happened everywhere.

And not a place in the world where they don't fight. If it weren't we fighting, for land.

It's all they fighting for, because of land. And soon they'll get all land and stop fighting.

There wouldn't be no more fight. And they'll have it. They'll get together. The Jewish people are smart people, no dummies. They know what they doing. And they not trying to take from nobody nothing. And after they go settle, they'll buy from them a piece of land from and they will pay the other one and get it straight.

Q:What were the -- what was the hardest part about adapting to being in America?

A:Hardest part adopting?

Q:To adapt, to adjust to the new life here.

A:First thing is language. It is the very first one. And the second one is the education, the economy. Well, I really don't know. I am not a politician.

Q:But for you personally, was it hard to adjust?

A:For me, no. No. I wasn't afraid for work, nothing bother me. I went through so hell. So many places were only hell. And I get in through, and I was nothing. When I came in this country, you know what I done? I open up a gasoline station. You know what a

gasoline station is? I opened it up, run a service station. And I'll never forget there were about two gentlemen -- one is a lawyer and one a judge -- to my service station on Kerry (ph) Street in Richmond. And talking and arguing in English. And I say -- that the lawyer asked the judge about a question he don't know what to answer him. And I told him in Latin the question what he's asking. He look atme. Isay,__, and justice, power, government, and all that. And I look around, and the judge took a look at me. He say, "Look, what you doing here?" I say, "I run the station." He say, "Wait a minute.

You don't run that station. Come to me tomorrow I'll give you a job." The judge told me.

And the lawyer -- Istovatz (ph), and I forgot the lawyer's name. I say, "No, I can't. I don't go make -- I got to make a living." He say, "I go pay you good." I say, "Still not enough. When I would go away to go, I would go into my own trade." He say, "What's your trade?" I say, "Law. I would become a lawyer. I would want to do that, but I can't do that here, my handicap." "What do you mean your handicap?" What I know, I don't know the language. I don't know what to do. I would get lost. Huh-uh. I don't want it."

Q:Let's change the tape please.

End of Tape 4

Tape 5

Q:This may sound like kind of a strange question, because I think there were different points at which your life became more and more difficult. But is there one moment when what we say "the Holocaust," when that really began for you, when you realized how serious the situation was?

A:In what year?

Q:Well, you tell me. At what point did you realize that this wasn't just a short war or that things were really very, very, horrible for the Jewish people? When did that begin for you?

A: It begin as soon as we got in into the ghetto. It was you take a human being and lock him up.

Lock me up, but I wasn't -- wasn't ready to be locked up. I was still in my prime life. I was 39 years of age, and they're going to lock me up. And then the pagrom. What I couldn't take it is the Lithuanians. I had Lithuanians lawyers, friends. They used to -- like for Passover, for example. I used to take five, six judges coming with me and we having the Passover services. I was so close. Stenitis (ph). They hadtoldmetwo__.

One was Stenitis, was a good friend of mine, Stenitis. His brother. And say, oh, I mingled with them, friendly. I know I'm alive because they -- when the city pagrom was going out -- going around, they come up to my house and stopped. Why? I am positive sure that one of my friends was Hollincare (ph), say, "You don't go to Ipson. Skip that house," because I have a feeling that they were going next to me. But I still, still here.

Somebody stopped. Well, that what was a difficult life. And then the nice people, Edna's family, losing Edna's family in -- in two minutes. And I was hot and angered at the Jewish police. They didn't have to be involved in that kind of thing. I lost twice people

because of big shots. I could be a police any time. They all life is what's difficult. It was not what's not difficult. And like with here, a life not concern it does. When I came in this country, I went to work for Edna's uncle, who was an uncle the Pepsi-Cola owner from Pepsi-Cola in Munich -- in Richmond. And I worked hard for her uncle. I wouldn't even let me smoke a cigarette. One day he comes in and he stop where I stay at night and working, and he tells me, I say, "Well, what you going to do next?" I say, "I don't know yet." I say, "Well, I got a job for you," her uncle tells me. I say, "What is it?" I say, "To run my bottle machines. I have troubles with the machines, and the mechanic there is a drunk. Every day he's drunk, and I'm in troubles. I got to have my equipment working. I can't make any money. I can't make a living the machines staying still." I say, "What you want from me?" "I want to give you a better job you got." The job I'm talking, 1947, he been paying me $65 a week. I say, "Well, I'm not interested in doing nothing." He say, "I give you $100 week." I say, "Give me $100 a week? What I going to do with $100?" Well, "Tell me why you won't. What is your reason," he say, "when you were able to do yourself better." He was a smart man, the old man. I asked him the queston. I told him, I say, "Look, America is a country of wheels. Everything goes on wheels. You go stay and look. Go take a look, how many wheels pass by in the minutes we're standing and talking to each other. Everything goes on wheels, and I want to roll with them. I don't want you to stop me from rolling. I -- what good is for me your job? I'm not too much interested." And here I tell you another mistake you made. You know, you got to be -- in life you got to be careful. Here comes Serret (ph). Serret -- you remember Serret? Serret was the foreign minister from Israel who was before in Benger Young's times. And he deliver a speech in Richmond. I was at his speech making. After he finish speaking, I come with the uncle and I introduce him in Hebrew, introduce him Serret. And he tells to Serret, "You know, I want to build a plant of Pepsi-Cola in Israel.

Can I do it?" I say, "Sure, you can do it. No question about it. But it will be certain requirement. You know, one thing that -- Israel got enough grapes, got enough food, and

they can make the syrup, they make from all that stuff from our ingredients." He say, "Well, but you know, I want to build for my grandchildren," Edna's uncle tells Serret. I say, "Well," he say, "I build for them a future." Then it made me hot. I say, "You want me," I say, "go to Israel, vote for you to secure the life for your grandchildren, and my grandchildren shall work for you? No, I'm not going. I don't want that."

Q:What do you think it was about your background that made you strong, that got you through all of this the way you did?

A:Made you strong?

Q:That gave you the strength to survive all of this. Was it something about your background?

A:Right. Right.

Q: What?

A:Without my education, I wouldn't be able to accomplish nothing. Everything education helped me. It was not hard for me. When I took the job, I knew the language. I knew the history of the people. I knew what to say and what to do. And -- what I should say "Yes" and not say "No." The only trouble I -- remained after the war me and Edna, but no more closer people. We couldn't help it. Only want to have a little happiness. More happiness here right now. I got a good business. Everything all right, but still not fulfilled.

Q:lt's still not fulfilled?

A:Huh-uh. Still not fulfilled.

Q:After the war when you came over to the United" States, did you talk -- did -- at least among your family, did you talk about your experiences?

A:They knew.

Q:I know they knew, but did you talk about it together?

A:Yes. I talked, and they didn't like to hear it, to be honest with you. They didn't -- back > I think we are talking. A lot of them they think that I telling a lie, that I am not telling the truth, because they figure that a person couldn't survive, couldn't go through life with that kind of a problems all day after day. And they didn't want to listen. They didn't want to listen. They didn't want me to speak no more. And not only me, all the survivors. Don't talk. It was a rough time until lately, yeah, the museum helps a little. But until the museum come, they don't want -- nobody want to listen. I say, "The American people don't listen to us anyhow. They're used to talking. They are used to doing. It's a waste of time."

Q:Were you able to put it behind you then?

A:l did. Right now a lot of thing here. When I came in this country ,Il gota brother-in-law here living with me this month, Edna's sister's husband. And I told him, "Milton, you know, let's go make -- I got a good business for us both together. Let's go in partners. I got two businesses. One business," I say, "you can pick auto parts. Open up a business auto parts. You be the salesman. I'll tell you what to sell, you go and sell it, only sell it. Or a paper clip factory. Why? Why a paper clip? A paper clip factory, you

can run it by yourself. You don't need any help. The machinery runs it, and you make a living. Only thing you need is to go on out and sell it, to go to the wholesaler -- paper wholesaler and sell it." And I say, "You would be perfect for me, because you know the language, and you just got back from the army, and you the right man." "No," he say, "take it easy. I don't want that kind of business. I don't want it." He is nothing, have nothing. He's a big nothing. What I beg him to be a member -- a partner with me, and I have anything I want. I got an apartment. I say I can get him $200,000 and from fingers. I got a machine shop. I got one piece of machinery just $250, the cranks and grinder. I have the best machinists in Richmond working for me. Well, and now with Jay in the business, and Jay already working on his little one, he should be -- yeah. And first thing he comes in he runs into the computer and types.

Q:What sort of -- how do you feel that your experiences during the war, during the Holocaust, affected the way you live your life now or the way you lived your life for the last 40 years or so? Do you think it had a lasting impact that made you do things differently or value certain things differently than you might have?

A:I tell you, I know -- I'm sure I had to do it. I'm sure I done it. While in my business I felt out that you cannot leave it out a community. You got to be a community person. You got to see to help, tobe active _--_--, to be active. And am. I got more awards -- I say, so many sticker. But I got a Distinguished Community Service Award. I got a Christian Jews Conference. I got a Naborite Service Award. I got a Naborite top lot president -- I got plenty. And it's not because I got pushing it out. No, the way it comes itself. I feel because I went through life so different variations, movements, that now everybody -- everybody. I say everybody. A lot of people come to me ask advices. Why do they ask for advices? For my experience. I went through hell. I give my advice. I say, "What's the matter? You going to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about or you don't know

what you talking about? You don't know what you want. You know what you want. But you got to make up my mind." People want to go and want to have it done for nothing.

You can't get nothing for nothing. Well --

Q:ls there anything today that frightens you, that takes you right back to that bad period?

A:Right. Didn't I mention to you? Funny how we talk sometimes. I can't remember with whom I spoke.

Q:Tell me.

A:That now the government repeat, it repeats itself. Particularly Europe. They -- the Balkans, what's going on in the Balkans is terrible. And who go have the -- we go expect a war with the Lithuanians and Poles. I don't know. I have a feeling like that, because they going the same way as they went in 1947, "48.

Q:And that frightens you?

A:That frightens me. Who wants to have it? We had enough. We don't need any wars no more.

And the way it's going now, you never know what's going to happen. They still cannot settle between theirselves the arguments. The politicians, they are a bunch of no-goods.

Q:ls there anything, just the ordinary life in the United States, that frightens -- that makes you think of the past and --

A:Yeah, there was a easier life. Now we going -- we going over a new period of life which we can't compare. Now the computer price -- the computer life, I mean. The computer life,

it's a new way of life, and it is changed the human being. In the next 10 years, we don't go recognize ourself.

Q:But I may be -- I'm not explaining my question very well.

What I'm trying to ask you is, if in just the daily life today there are certain things, certain sounds, certain things you see or think about, that all of a sudden make you remember something 50 years ago and are very disturbing that bring it back to you?

A:The street life. It is terrible. The murders, murdering, suing each other, children problems.

The cancer problems, cancer sickness. They would kill this cancer when they would put their mind in it. I don't believe it, it's not that it couldn't be conquered. But every other thing, all kind of items, and the making the life miserable for their own self in place of making it beautiful, beautiful life. But they don't straighten out, it will be rough, because I can see a lot of -- a lot of fights here going on. And, well --

Q:What message should we learn from all of this? From everything you've told me, what should somebody who's listening to this take away from it, the most important thing?

A:What people should learn from this?

Q:Yeah.

A:They should learn a new life, because a life is now come to a dead point. And mostly land is controls the people's life. Land and girls, and all the fights with one with each other, killing each other. Here it's not as bad as in little Richmond. It is a village. It's not a night for two, three killings. Blacks, whites. Mostly blacks. Whites is not so bad. But still a human being, I don't care who it is. And something life itself, when itself without

help and change. Life need help. It needs to get out from their assistance. We need to help the economy got to have a boost. And, well, too much inner fighting between one and the other. Very, very hard. They still talking?

Q:Yeah. Do you think in the world, is religion really that important?

A:No. No. I don't care about religion. Religion brings no -- we got to be mixed in between one and another. It's rough. And it started in Iran. It were the biggest problems. And then there's Lebanon -- the Middle East, another war should come up.

Q:But you are a practicing Jew?

A:Yes.

Q:Religion is important to you?

A:Right. Because -- well, it is religion like here. Listen two weeks ago was a rabbi in Richmond. He been talking. And he say the only thing what he wants is to conservative, conservative Jew. And he say there, what we got to do every day, we got to put on chilum (ph). You know what chilum is? You know up around there. And we got to see to help and to do and to pray. And it wouldn't give me nothing. All this, what's we get for the human being. Right now we still don't see nothing. We say -- I didn't see yet after 50 years to get rid of Hitler would start coming back, everything. Here I've been talking 50 years ago to the same farmer, Paskofski, living outside and talking to Mr.

Paskofski, "What do you think about life?" That's what we be talking. I'd be asking him right there by the door from the Holocaust. And he say, "You know, you so right. You so right." That I say, "Let's -- I can tell you one thing. We still going to have a beautiful

life in front of us. I don't see it yet." Italkto___--_--<<.<

Q:Is there anything else you want to -- I don't have any more questions. Is there anything else you want to say?

A:I don't know. The main thing what I want to say was to get ready of thought of Holocaust.

We should never -- not have any Holocaust problems. We should be out of the books.

We should get ready world, all the dopes (ph) and all the sicknesses and all the killings.

It's unbelievable to be seen a person today, a young person start dying because of nothing been done about it. A week ago a man, a good friend of ours, he's only 56 years of age.

Cancer. All why? Well, his time comes, he got to go, they say. That is their answer.

That's not the answer. The answer is we're not doing enough. I remember when my grandfather died at what, 56. He was already old man. He died, and he was 56 years of age, but he can still live another 30. Well, well, sometimes you done a lot of wrong things to yourself. You can be smart enough. You need help and other people too to

advise you. Life is not a life of one man. We have certain people think they are. Get along, they're not.

Q:Okay.

A:Right. Well, there -- Jay wouldn't -- well, I were thinking Jay will be tomorrow. What you doing tonight?

Conclusion of interview