Document

FRANK HYDE May 4, 2013

Q: This is a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Mr. Frank Hyde, on May 4", 2013. Thank you very much Mr. Hyde for agreeing to meet with us, and talk with us about your experiences.

A: Well, it's a very long experience, be -- we were little children when all these happenings started. We bo --

Q: So -- so I will start --

A: You go ahead.

Q: -- asking some questions.

A: Go ahead.

Q: And we'll go from there.

A: Go ahead.

Q: And I'll start at the very beginning. Could you tell us where you were born, when you were born, and if your name was different at birth?

A: Yes. I was born on August 8, 1921, which is now 91 years ago, and my Czech name was Pekarek.

Q: Pekarek.

A: P-e-k-a-r-e-k, Pekarek.

Q: Okay, okay.

A: That was my father's name, actually it was my name. And should I continue? Interview with Frank Hyde , May 4, 2013

Q: Yeah, what was his name, first name?

A: His name was h-u-g-o, Hugo Pekarek. And the whole family was Pekarek, I can show you some pictures of a cousin of mine, Pekarek. And we changed it only after the war.

Q: Okay. When you were born, wh-what town were you born in, or what place were you born?

A: Capital of Czechoslovakia, which was Prague. I was born in Prague, I was raised in Prague, until the situation has changed.

Q: Can you tell me what part of Prague, what section of Prague?

A: I was born in the old section of Prague, which was very similar to what we call in New York, the east -- Lower East Side of New York. The bil -- remember --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- that was 1929 when I was born. So the buildings were usually four flights up.

The more modern building at that time, had an elevator. Not the building I was born at. You had to walk the four flights, and we were living on the top floor. Why we were living on that top floor? Because when my mother married my father, her mother was living in that apartment, and in those days people were living together, so we were born in that apartment where my, actually grandmother, was already living. Interview with Frank Hyde deg May 4, 2013

Q: So tell m--

A: And that was on the fourth floor.

Q: Do you remember the address?

A: Sure.

Q: What is it?

A: [have to say the way it sounds in Czech.

Q: Sure.

A: The number was 11, and the street was called Bilkova. That's b like in boy, i-l-k- o-v-a, Bilkova Ulice. Ulice is street.

Q: And was it in the center of town then?

A: Very much so, yes. In--

Q: Was it --

A: -- the old section of Prague.

Q: Was it near the cemetery, the old Jewish cemetery?

A: There was a Jewish cath -- I would call it cathedral. There was a Jewish section very close, yes, on the next street, so to speak, we had to go sa -- Jewish holidays [indecipherable] we used to walk with my father, I remember very well, to the temple. So the temple was, you would say like, you go s -- the main street, which was called after Paris, the town in France. So the street was Paris -- Interview with Frank Hyde deg May 4, 2013

Q: How do you say it in Czech?

A: -- of course in Czech it sounded different than when I say it in English. But the name was still the town, Paris.

Q: What was the Czech version? How did you say it in -- what was the street name?

A: Pariz, Pazheesh(ph) -- Paris, in English --

Q: Pazheeshka(ph).

A: -- is Pariz in Czech.

Q: Okay, so it's Pazheeshka(ph).

A: Pazheeshka(ph) Ulice, yes.

Q: Pazheeska(ph) Ulice.

A: And when you cross that street, that was that old section, which was the Jewish section. We had a Jewish temple, Jewish synagogue and very small cemetery, because it was in town. So the cemetery was not bigger than this room where we sit.

But that's where, usually, the Jewish people congregated on holidays. I don't see where it's actually Jewish, or religious, no, but there were holy days where my father, whether he wanted to show his son, or whatever, so we went to the temple, and spent some time in the temple. When I was 13, I was -- I had Bar Mitzvah. But then, because of the circumstances, you know, which unch -- fa -- unfortunately Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

started, you are not so proud to be Jewish. That was -- you know, it was always a handicap, so to speak, in my life.

Q: Even in Czechoslovakia, before Hitler came?

A: No, before Hitler came, everything was normal, nobody cared whether you are Jewish or Catholic or [indecipherable]. The only question -- we used to play soccer, because soccer was the sport in Europe, so the question was only, what position did you play? Nobody ask about religion, or where you came from, or -- was -- was not the subject to talk about. You were Czech, the Czech name, and you were Czech as everybody else, and look, that was not an issue, and -- as much as I remember --

Q: Okay.

A: -- it was not an issue when you were growing up, no.

Q: And -- in your life, it wasn't.

A: I-In my life --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- yes --

Q: That's right.

A: --I'm talking about my life, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: Very gradually, you know, the situation has changed. May I continue? ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Frank Hyde deg May 4, 2013

Q: No. Because I'm going to ask questions. I want to, in the beginning of the interview, I want to establish -- I want to establish the world you were born into, so I ask about the people that you knew. And we've talked a little bit about your father, I want to know more about him, I want to know about your mother, any other siblings. So if you will allow, I will ask questions about --

A: Well, I tell you -- tell you, well, I had a sister, was three years older.

Q: What was her name?

A: Mi-Mariva(ph). We were calling her Mimi, m-i-m-i.

Q: Mimi, mm-hm.

A: There was a brother who I have never met, he passed away of some kind of a child disease. My parents -- my mother was born in 1892. My father, 1878, about 14 years apart. But in those days, people were at home. You know, my mother was always at home, cooking.

Q: What was her name?

A: I -i-d-a, Ida.

Q: Ida. And her maiden name?

A: Naturally in Czech, that was her name.

Q: Yeah. Interview with Frank Hyde deg May 4, 2013

A: And you know, the very -- I remember my mother, you know, she was always cooking. The main dish was lunch, not like in the United States. The distances were different, so people were eating lunch at home. And in the evening was always something which they either warmed up, or something special, you know, some sausage or something, which was the thing which people ate in Prague at that time.

My father was -- he was representing a factory which produced sweaters, cardigans and stuff like that. Prague, of Czechoslovakia is a reasonably cold setting. If you wanted t-to really get warm, so to speak, you had to -- not fly, there was no planes -- you had to travel down to Etherlis(ph), through Austria, and that's where the warm weather really was -- existed. But coming back to my family, so my father came home, usually in the evening. We had dinner -- I mean, what we had for dinner, he had for dinner, and everything was normal. It was a very normal life. My mother -- now it might sound strange here, because everything is pre-cooked, and pre-packed and stuff like that, but you know, when my -- I remember there was a bed in the kitchen, and I was a very sick child somehow, so I was very much staying in that bed during daytime. And I remember my mother when she was making pasta. Well, the pasta had to be made from scratch, you know, it was eggs, and whatever she put in, I don't remember, but it was on a plate, and she was cutting it, you know.

Q: And how did you -- what did you call it, in Czech? Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

A: The pasta?

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Ah, now it escapes, the word. How would you call pasta? It will come back to me.

Q: Okay. Did --

A: It was -- somehow [, lately that I want to say something, and I miss the word, and then it comes back, you know?

Q: Yeah.

A: But that's how she was making the pasta, which goes -- which went into the soup.

Q: Yeah.

A: And that's how I remember my mother. Then -- then --

Q: And now it's a delicacy.

A: Oh, sure. That was how it --

Q: Homemade food is a delicacy.

A: The grocery store was downstairs, but to buy pasta in a grocery -- nu-nudle.

Couldn't think of what it was, but you know, it's something you didn't hear for --

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: I'm out of Czechoslovakia since 1948.

Q: Yeah. Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

A: So we talking about 52, plus 13, 65 years. So what -- to remember, all of a sudden, a word which you have not heard for --

Q: So many years.

A: -- 60 odd years, is very difficult to remember, you know?

Q: Yeah.

A: But this how it was, and I remember my mother, after lunch, with everything had to be spotless, and cleaned, and God forbid something was on the floor, had to be polished, you know, and was a --

Q: Did she have any help at home?

A: Sorry?

Q: Did she have any help at home, or did she do this all herself?

A: She was the -- by herself. It was nonexistent. In the afternoon, we were kids, like I said, so in the afternoon we went to a certain spot on the mountain. There was a mountain nearby. The boys played soccer, of course. I don't remember what my sister was doing, whether she was there too, or whether sh-she was [indecipherable]

Q: Would you mean -- by mountain, do you mean like a hilly area? Would you tal -- be talking about VySehrad?

A: Well, yes, it was not really a very hilly area, but there was -- yes.

Q: Is this VySehrad? http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

A: Sorry?

Q: Is this VySehrad?

A: VySehrad, no.

Q: No.

A: That -- what I'm talking about was Letna --

Q: Letna.

A: -- |-e-t-n-a, Letna.

Q: Okay.

A: Na(ph) Letna.

Q: Okay.

A: And there was a grocery shop, you know, and that's where the women gathered, they were talking whatever they were talking about, I don't know, but we were talking about soccer, you know, playing soccer.

Q: Of course.

A: Then they went home, evening, and you had the dinner at home. That was summertime. Wintertime, well wintertime, you went somewhere to skate. Now in those days we didn't have an ice skating stadium. But tha -- because it was a cold country, the tennis courts is where you s -- that were -- you know, they just put water on it, that froze because of the cold weather, and then during the day you went to http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde 8 May 4, 2013 skate on a tennis court. Now, it was not tennis court for us, we were ca-calling it ice skating rink, you know.

Q: Of course, of course.

A: But this -- that's how life used to be.

Q: Your -- your parents, I'd like to know a little bit about their personalities. What kind -- was your father outgoing, an extrovert, an introvert?

A: No, I think he was -- I remember the place where he used to go, what they used to call coffee shop, and I remember at that time, that coffee shop in -- when he took me to see, or whatever, it was so terrible full of smoke, because in those days people were smoking, irrespective of health, or whatever, they were smoking. So when I went with my father to that room, the thing what impressed me most, my memory, was the terrible smoke. And you know, he said, you speak to his people who were playing cards with him, and stuff like that. Then, most likely my mother picked me up, and we went wherever we went.

Q: Did --

A: You know, he was not a com -- extra -- he was a regular father, in my opinion.

Unfortunately, what happened later, naturally wi-- no, I shouldn't say split. The circumstances split us. You know, because I got married very young. Can I dwell on this subject with you? Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

Q: We'll come to that. We'll come to that. Your -- are -- were you closer to one parent or the other?

A: Well, I think as a boy I was closer to my mother, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: [remember very distinctly as a boy, we used to go shopping. The Macys was called [speaks Czech] I don't know if you heard it from some other person.

Q: I've lived in Prague.

A: Oh, you did live in Prague?

Q: Yeah.

A: Well, then you know what I'm talking about [speaks Czech]

Q: [Speaks Czech]

A: From [Czech] were like somehow a small street, and there was a butcher store.

But he wasn't selling raw meat, it was more like a salami type of a place, you know.

And I remember with my mother I stopped there, with her of course, and we bought pork, which was spesh -- the Czech -- one of the main dishes in Prague was pork. I mean, pork was not like here, you know, pork -- people don't eat pork. And I don't eat it now either. My f-- every day I fish. But, you know, that changed over the time.

But back -- at those -- at that time, when I was maybe 13, 15, I remember that I went with my mother, whatever she was doing, on that [speaks Czech] I don't remember, Interview with Frank Hyde 8 May 4, 2013

but we went in -- down south, and there was that butcher store where we stopped by, and had some bite of whatever, and go to [indecipherable] back home.

Q: So you a-- so you would --

A: So she was closer to me than my father.

Q: Your father. But if you ate pork, that means that your parents didn't observe the dietary -- the pa -- your parents didn't observe the dietary laws --

A: Not at all, no, no, no.

Q: Okay.

A: We were born Jewish, yes, but it was not like that we had a Jewish household, no. It was a regular household.

Q: Okay.

A: No -- nobody asked these questions, that's how everybody was living. But you came to the bil -- call it building, house, on a-- on a regular day, especially Saturday, the house was like a -- smelled like a restaurant, because everybody was cooking the same thing. We were doing the same thing like our neighbors, whether they were Jewish, or Christians, or what -- that was not the subject, nobody cared about this.

Q: Did --

A: I'm talking about when I was a small boy --

Q: I understand. http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde 6 May 4, 2013

A: --I don't know how it developed later on.

Q: Of course, of course. Well, Czechoslovakia was a new country at the time.

A: Yes, it was originally 1918.

Q: And was there a great feeling of patriotism because it was fine -- was there a great feeling of patriotism because it was fi --

A: Oh, definitely.

Q: -- because it was a new country?

A: Definitely. Not only that, but our constitution was identical to the U.S.

constitution, because the U -- you know, the United States president at that time, Wilson, was very instrumental of carving out Czechoslovakia. You would have to know more about the history, but Europe was occu -- no, I shouldn't say occupied, say ruled by the Austrian-Hungarian empire.

Q: Yes.

A: And that was the House of the Hapsburgs, king of Hapsburgs, or whatever he was, emperor, I don't remember that part. And everything -- the language was much more German, because the Czechs were part of that Austrian empire. But then one of the -- one of the principle politicians over there at the time, Masarek(ph), he petitioned -- came here, and he petitioned Wilson, and I don't know who came after Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

him, or before him, to es -- to give the Czechs the [indecipherable] determination right.

Q: Yeah.

A: So they calfed(ph) out of that Austrian empire afterward, during World War I, Czechoslovakia. There was no Czechoslovakia before. There was -- the state was called Bohemia, Moravia, and Silesia. Those were three states which were, so to speak, the bone of Czechoslovakia. So when, apparently here, or there, when they realize it's too small to be independent, somehow they attached Slovakia to it. And that's why it became Czechoslovakia. The original three states --

Q: I see.

A: -- and then another two or three states to the -- I say to the -- to the --

Q: To the east a little bit.

A: -- to the right -- to -- to east, so to speak.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: So, the very eastern part of Czechoslovakia was very close to Russia, and that's why it was so, later on, during World War II, Czechoslovakia -- Czechoslovakia was ceded to the Russian sphere of influence.

Q: We'll come to those things. We'll come to those things.

A: Well, that's the truth. ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Frank Hyde a May 4, 2013

Q: So, tell me a little bit about school life. You -- when did you --

A: That -- schools?

Q: You -- your school life. What kind of --

A: Well, the --

Q: -- school did you go to?

A: -- school -- I went to a German school, because at -- wi -- you know, Czechoslovakia, that time there was no Czechoslovakia, so when Czechoslovakia was founded, just like here, you had a better chance to get a position when you speak Spanish, and certainly English. So there, my mother, I remember her saying all the time, whatever you want to do in life, you have to talk Czech, which was our language --

Q: Right.

A: -- but you have learn German. So, I went to a German school.

Q: Did you speak -- at home --

A: Yes?

Q: -- I just want to establish, you spoke Czech with your --

A: Ch--- oh, sure.

Q: Okay. Did your parents know Yiddish at all? Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

A: Not at all. The first time I heard Yiddish, you would not believe it, when I was going to Auschwitz. I never heard of Yiddish. There was Czech, or German. Now, if you didn't speak well German, maybe you had some kind of a mishmash of German, but not Yiddish. I have -- my friends they was all Czechs, I mean, who spoke anything else but Czech?

Q: Your -- did you know anything of your family history, beyond your father and mother and maybe grandparents?

A: Yes, th-this -- somehow -- my father used to say that his family came from -- that would be west -- from the southwest of Bohemia. And he was -- he thought that his ancestor were Catholics, but there were -- you know, there was all kinds of reforms going on under -- not Martin Luther King here --

Q: Iknow.

A: -- but the original Luther.

Q: Right.

A: And there was also somebody in -- in Prague by the name of Jan Hus, h-u-s.

Q: Yes.

A: So there was a certain split in the -- in the religion.

Q: And certainly within Catholicism.

A: That's correct. ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Frank Hyde *0 May 4, 2013

Q: In the Middle Ages.

A: And ---and he thinks that instead of choosing the sides between the two split Czech -- Catholic religion, that they chose the Jewish religion. This why our name is not Jewish, you know, our name -- the Jewish, let's say, names in Prague, they were the Feldmans, like my wife's single name, or the Schwarzkopf(ph), just like here.

Q: They were like more Germanic names.

A: Exactly. Now look, here somebody is called Schwarzkopf(ph), you know he is somehow Jewish.

Q: Or German.

A: Or German.

Q: That's right.

A: Well, that was exactly in Prague. So to know somebody by the name of Pekarek and be Jewish, that didn't exist. And I will tell you a small story when I was a kid, and I went to the German school, not speaking German. But I remember that my teacher, that was the first grade, second grade, you know, I was what, six, seven years old. Somehow she is -- there was some question about religion, and she assign me to the class, or to the time to have religious schooling, to the Catholic class, because of the Czech name. Well, I didn't speak any German, but somehow I objected to it, and I said that I was Jewish. Th -- so she sent me to the Jewish class, Interview with Frank Hyde * May 4, 2013

or whatever, but I remember the name, that was not a Jewish name at all. Now, this -- we were Jewish. This -- we were born as Jewish people, but then, unfortunately what happened -- I told you I was not a very proud Jew, no, because everything what happened was because of the Jewish faith. And lots of things happened, ma-maybe we come to it.

Q: Yes, we come to --

A: But so --

Q: I guess --

A: The name I change for different reason. If you want me to tell it to you now, I'll tell it to you now.

Q: Yes, let's do -- let's -- let's do it -- let -- tell --

A: Well, we were -- my name was Pekarek.

Q: Pekarek.

A: I married Georgine, she was Pekarek, of course. And then what happened i -- th- that was 1947 -- 48, the infl -- at that time, the influence of Soviet Russia was tremendous. Why? Because that goes to polit -- politics. The Czechs always felt that the west let them down. Th-The -- the che -- the -- the west means England, not the United States, the United States was out of this world. But England, France, partially Italy, that instead of helping the Czechs, so to speak, maintain their ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013 identity, freedom, they let them down, and then in turn, Hitler marched in, and the whole situation has changed. So the Russia influence was very strong. We, Georgine and me, we didn't care for it, because we have seen what happened when you don't have freedom. We both survived Auschwitz, we came back in 1945, and were living in Prague as best as we could have done it, until 47 - "48. But when the situation became very, very difficult, we didn't like it. We thought again, we might have to go through the same thing. Maybe not the extremes, but hardly the freedom which we were hoping for. Well, we decided to get out of Czechoslovakia, which was 19 four -- late deg47, early "48. I couldn't get out, because I was, quote, military age. So I thought that if I somehow split with Georgine, that by myself I will be easier to get out than two of us with luggage and all and that stuff. That's how we thought of it. Well, I met somebody by the name of Hyde. His name was Walter E.

Hyde. Through him, I got a English passport. So Georgine left Prague in February 1948. I couldn't get out that quickly. In the meantime she went from Prague to London, stayed in London for a while. From her mother's side, they were here, surviving the situation in Ecuador. Now, of the f--- all these countries, I'll tell you why Ecuador. That was Georgine's uncle from her mother's side; he was a dentist.

But he didn't care for dentistry, he was more like a businessman sitting on the board of directors here, sitting on the board of directors there. And somehow he became http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde *8 May 4, 2013 consul general of Ecuador. Well, how he got Ecuador, | can't tell you. But that's how it was. So it was -- unfortunately, the situation became worse, before Hitler and all that stuff. He was trying to convince Georgine's mother and father to go to Ecuador because he was able to give them the visa to go to Ecuador. Well, my mother, you know, they were in a different situation. They had a house like a house, and those days there were no mortgages in Prague. So to leave your house, to leave your business, that was unheard of. Why should I go to Ecuador to listen to those idiots down there, or something? This is my home. Well, unfortunately, it didn't work out in the long run, but since they survived in Ecuador, in Quito, they came after the war here, like most of people usually do. So when Georgine was in England, she heard, of course, of her aunt and uncle, that they were here -- they were in Ecuador at that time. But they know they were living in -- in Ecuador.

They came here and that uncle of hers had some earlier connections to somebody who was a manufacturing person. And because of the Cold War which existed already at that time, somehow the United States government was pumping much more money into Puerto Rico, as a prevention that Puerto Rico wouldn't go too much left, like some of the countries did.

Q: Right. Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

A: So he was -- he was offered to build a factory in Puerto Rico. So since that uncle, who was a dentist representative of Ecuador, he told him, well, if you just came from Ecuador, you speak Spanish, you want to manage my factory [indecipherable] from Prague. So they settled to Puerto Rico for some time. So Georgine, not having any other family, from England, went to the United States, went to Puerto Rico.

Q: Rico.

A: So we stayed, of course, I was in Prague. Not divorced, that was not the question [indecipherable]. But I managed to get out of Prague. By myself it was easier than together with Georgine. So, when I got out of Prague, naturally I had nowhere to go. But the train took me to Paris. Well, I have to say something in favor of the French, irrespective of their view today, of that view. The French, at that time, were extremely helpful. They tried to reunite families who were split, you didn't know where -- last time saw him here, last time you saw him there. So it was very difficult, but the French were helping. And they were helping also, the people like myself, who all of a sudden, from Prague, was in Paris. We were called DPs, displaced people. And I got to Paris couple days before July 14", I'm sure you know what July 14" is. Well at that time, of course, that time was the different. That was 1948, and de Gaulle was still around, and he was running down Champs Elysees, I http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde 8 May 4, 2013 remember like today. When I did go to France, to Paris, I was supposed to see somebody who somebody knew somebody in Prague, and I was supposed to see those people. So those people took me to that celebration of July 14". Now, spreading out this story which I'm just telling you, my sister -- or rather, my mother had a sister, who had married a Viennese person, all Jewish, but she didn't like the situation as it was. And, before Hitler came in, she decided, with the husband, to go to, at that time Palestine. There was no Israel. You had to take the boat, which was very difficult, because Prague is right in the middle of Europe, there's no ocean around.

Q: There's no Czech navy.

A: There's no -- no Czech navy, no nothing. But she managed somehow, through someone else, to get the per -- the documents, and she survived the Hitler years in Jerusalem. [indecipherable] | -- I don't know which town she survived, but she was there. So when she came back to Prague looking for her family, but there was no family except us, my sister, me. But she didn't like it because she said exactly what we have found out later on. That it's too autocratic, too left-wingish, and she thought there was no future for Czechoslovakia to survive again. So somehow she has some friends in Australia. So she convinced my sister to go with her. The -- Interview with Frank Hyde *deg May 4, 2013

incidentally, the husband of my aunt passed away, and he is buried on the mount -- what is the name of the mountain in Israel? I forgot the name of the mountain.

Q: But he's buried there?

A: Yeah, he is buried there.

Q: Right there.

A: But she came back by herself, and she convinced my sister to go with her to Australia. Now, my sister, you know, she was very much into languages. So, for her to speak English, French, Italian, although she was born in Prague, she spoke all these languages. So, she was -- for her to go to Australia was no problem, she spoke English. So they went to Australia. Well, the trip to Australia by boat, that's a long distance, this is not around the corner. So when they arrived in Australia, I was in touch with them, or they were in touch with me, they helped me to get to Australia.

And the French --

Q: From Paris?

A: Sorry?

Q: From Paris?

A: From Paris. But, from Paris you had to go to Marseilles, and the ship to s -- there, took 60 days.

Q: Oh my goodness. Interview with Frank Hyde m May 4, 2013

A: Well, this how it was. So in the 60 days, I got into Australia in January deg49. I left July deg48, I got into Australia January "49. So when I go to Australia, of course, Georgine, we were married. She took the first plane, and she came to Australia, and we were living in Melbourne for a few years.

Q: Okay. At this point we want to find out, when did you become Frank Hyde?

Was it when you got --

A: Because Georgine was -- sh-she had a passport in the name of Hyde.

Q: Ah, so that --

A: So I didn't like to be someone else, so I dro -- and the name, at that time in Australia, to have a Czech name was -- they couldn't pronounce it, and --

Q: Okay, so my point -- my question is, is did you get that passport when Walter Hyde provided you with the -- and you chose Hyde as your name, or did you change your name when you were in Australia?

A: No, I changed my name only after we got the passport in the [indecipherable] if the passport would have been in the name of MacDonald, I would be MacDonald.

Q: Excuse me, but what I don't understand is when that -- you got that passport while you were still in Prague, or when you got to Australia?

A: No, we got it in Prague, that's how Georgine got out, she got out as Georgine Hyde. Interview with Frank Hyde 8 May 4, 2013

Q: Okay, so you chose, or --

A: I chose because of her name, that's it.

Q: -- because of the gentleman who provided them, at that point you changed your names?

A: Not at that point, but at -- eventually, yes.

Q: Yes.

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. So the --

A: And see, she had the name Hyde, and --

Q: Excuse me, but I don't understand where is eventually. Is eventually when you got it in-- when you got the passports in Prague, or when you were in Australia?

A: No, I got that passport in Prague.

Q: And it had your name, Frank Hyde in it?

A: Well, I was still Frank Pekarek.

Q: But she was Georgine Hyde.

A: But she was Georgine Hyde. So she got out as Georgine Hyde, and she was living in austral -- in -- in England as Georgine Hyde.

Q: Ahhh.

A: Because she had a British passport. Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

Q: A-And when you got out, you still were Pekarek.

A: Sure.

Q: And then when you got to Melbourne is when you changed it.

A: Then I lost the Pekarek, sure. I have here to show you, if you want to come to my Office, I have a certificate that I passed an accounting test as Pekarek.

Q: I see. Okay.

A: So it was very difficult.

Q: And then in -- in Melbourne is when you changed your name?

A: Here. I changed the name here --

Q: In the United States?

A: --in the United States, yes.

Q: I see. Okay.

A: When we were living in Queens, I've -- I don't remember the name of the lawyer who did it, but it's un -- my legal name here --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- is Frank pek -- not Frank Pekarek, but Frank Hyde.

Q: Got it.

A: [kept the P from Pekarek.

Q: Okay. Interview with Frank Hyde *deg May 4, 2013

A: It's not Peter, it's the P I kept for sentimental reasons, for my father's sake, shall I say? So I'm Frank Hyde, and John -- John, my son, of course, was born as John Hyde. Everything is back to John Hyde -- I mean, Frank Hyde, Georgine Hyde.

Q: Okay. So let's go back to Prague, and the -- in the mid to late 1930s.

A: Sorry?

Q: Let's go back to Prague, it's the mid to late 1930s, and you're in school.

A: Sure.

Q: And it's a new country, it's not even 20 years old. What happens in the political atmosphere?

A: No, you see, what happened, when the situation has gradually changing in Czechoslovakia --

Q: Before the Germans come in?

A: Before the German came -- well, they was -- I don't know how much history you know, but there were negotiations somehow, the influence of Hitler.

Q: Okay.

A: That was a story the other day in "The Wall Street Journal," exactly what I'm telling you, if the allied forces at that time would have done something to stop Hitler, that would not have happened, but they were not interested, maybe the http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde * May 4, 2013 interest was somewhere else. So, he became too powerful. There was also a recession in that world. Was a recession here --

Q: Right.

A: -- because -- because -- whatever they call it here.

Q: Depression.

A: A depression, that's correct. So, he promised jobs, and he promi -- he didn't say how, but what he did, you have t -- again, I'm talking about history, after World War I, the French and German were not always friends.

Q: Okay, excuse me, I'm going to interrupt. What I am interested to know is, did Hitler have an influence before he marched in the country, before he marched into Czechoslovakia, and took it over, when you say things changed gradually, was it such that it -- internal life in Czechoslovakia changed for the Jews, even before Hitler came? That's what my question is.

A: Not really.

Q: Not really.

A: I-- not to my knowledge, no.

Q: Okay. ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Frank Hyde * May 4, 2013

A: No. What changed was, like I said, there were negotiations, they wa -- he had certain demands. The border countries of that old Bohemia, which was somehow created by --

Q: Right.

A: -- this government here, to give them --

Q: Right.

A: -- border. That was occupied by German minorities. But since the constitution was like here, everybody was alike, and there was no ant -- anti-German feeling, or anything like that. But, let's go back to that recession which we had. So, when that was all the world was the depression, and Hitler promised jobs. Now, how did he deliver the job? Because, like I started to say, after World War I, the League of Nation, which was the forerunner of the United Nations, they thought Germany, not Hitler, there was Hindenburg, which was the president.

Q: Right.

A: They told him, you cannot go to this area of Europe, and in this area of Europe, which was called the Saar, s-a-a-r. And another place goes by.

Q: Right.

A: Which was something like say, our Detroit, with the factories of automobiles --

Q: Right. Interview with Frank Hyde % May 4, 2013

A: -- and all this.

Q: The Ruhrgebeit.

A: So he invaded those two places, and nobody stopped him. If they would have stopped him, maybe he wouldn't have been so powerful. But because they didn't stop him, maybe they didn't have the power to stop him.

Q: Yeah.

A: He has grown. So there was no -- no anti-Semitism in Prague, or anything of that nation. Everybody was Czech, and on the contrary, if you didn't speak well Czech, you were -- somehow you -- you were not liked, if I can say that word. And in that connection, I would also like to tell you, into my house where I was living, somebody moved in from Poland, ab -- what used to call is -- a Polish Jew. His name was Ehrlstein(ph). Well, the name tells you already, German Jew, so -- he became a leader of the Jewish population at that time, because somebody has to represent the Jews --

Q: Right.

A: --1in connection to the Czech government --

Q: Right.

A: -- and what followed, the German government. So he was appointed to be leader of the Jewish community. Since he moved into the house where we were living, Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

spoke poorly Czech -- German was not liked, because we were now, all of a sudden, enemies with the German -- my mother had his wife to go shopping, and all this stuff. Now that [indecipherable] they're all down the road, why we stayed in Prague longer than other people who were already deported, in camp number one.

Q: Okay. Let's come to the point where I'll -- I'll speed ahead a little bit. I-- I1- okay, if it is so that life didn't change in the late 1930s for you, in --

A: Not until 1937 - 1938.

Q: Okay.

A: It was the same.

Q: All right, what happened in 1937?

A: Well, the Czechs were forced to give up some of these border countries. So there was a resentment against the rest, because officially Russia was -- officially. They were not doing much, but officially they were. So, the negotiations were primarily between Germany, France -- I can even tell you the name of the prime minister of Germany, who was negotiating at that time, wa -- he was a [indecipherable] from like a--

Q: Yeah, he was a aristocrat.

A: Yeah, aristocrat. His name was Ribbentroph(ph). Well, I -- the -- some other name came back to me, and on the Italian side was Count Charnow(ph). And those Interview with Frank Hyde * May 4, 2013

people were pushing -- well, at that time they were negotiating with Prime Minister Chamberlain. Now, naturally, in those days, when you gave your word, you were supposed to keep your word. So Hitler, through Chamberlain, through Ribbentroph(ph), and Italian Charnow(ph), Hitler promised the dema -- the demand on the Czechs to give up those border countries, is his last territorial demand. Chamberlain believed it, because in those days, when you signed something, you were believing. So he went back to --- Chamberlain went back to London, where he came from, and showed a piece of paper, and this piece of paper is a guarantee of peace in our lifetime. Well, he didn't realize whom he was deali -- dealing with. But coming back to -- to the Czechs, so there was a certain animosity, of course, because all of a sudden, instead of having the country like this, it was like

Q: Sliced.

A: -- sliced, and you know, undefensible(ph).

Q: Right.

A: And in the -- the -- the attitude towards German was all of a sudden they were not our citizens, they were our enemies, because they wanted to join Germany.

Q: Right. ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Frank Hyde *deg May 4, 2013

A: Primarily because he promised jobs, which we couldn't deliver at the time. So now all the European continent really turned pro-German. The Austrians, they want to be German. They were German speaking people, but they were so different from actually Germany, that it was not -- you know, th-thinking about, he promised jobs, and he delivered the jobs. Making his armed forces, making all these weapons, which he developed.

Q: But your life, it didn't change?

A: Sorry?

Q: Your life, and your f-family's ri --

A: No, not at that time, no. We were still playing soccer like everybody else [indecipherable] didn't play any role, no. It really started much later, when he came into Prague, which was in March ninethir -- 1939. Well --

Q: Let's talk about that.

A: -- Czechoslovakia ceased to exist.

Q: Yes.

A: And they no -- they named it the protectorate of Bohemia-Moravia. Had something like a -- what we call the governor, or something. And the Czechs were represented by a figurehead. Then the list started to change, yes.

Q: Tell -- tell us how. http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

A: Anti-Semitism to a certain extent, because they were always connected, the Jewish were looked at -- German speaking people, rather than Czech speaking people. The names were German. So it started to deteriorate. To what extent? Not that much, but then started the transportations.

Q: Well, how did -- my question is much more personal than that. It is, when did your life, your father's life, your mother's life, how did things happen in the family?

Hitler marches in, and by what point --

A: Well, it's changed primarily because young Czech pe -- young Jewish people, th -- we were forced to go on certain labor. We were single men, that's why we married. The single Jewish people, they were -- well, they were taught to meet somewhere, and that's was something what I always call like Madison Square Garden. We don't have Madison Square Garden in Prague --

Q: What was the square? Yeah.

A: -- but something like Madison Square Garden.

Q: What was the place?

A: We had to -- we had to report, and we had to do certain work for the Germans.

Q: Tell me -- excuse me, though, do you remember the place you had to report to in Prague? Interview with Frank Hyde 8 May 4, 2013

A: Well, it was -- no, I don't remember the name, but I have to tell you, before that started, when they marched in, March "39.

Q: Correct.

A: Iwas 18, I was working for a Jewish firm. The Jewish management was thrown out, and a German administrator was sent in. I was still working when he came in, in his black uniform, and a red --

Q: Armband.

A: -- swastika. And we were -- the location was just across from the Gestapo headquarter.

Q: Oh, I think I--

A: But they didn't, you know, you didn't do anything, so they didn't bother you, but you s -- you saw the changes which gradually occurred. At home I don't think I have seen so many changes. Maybe I didn't pay attention to it. I was a young man, they still u-- before Hitler came, you know, we still went to dance. And there was a resentment, but there was still freedom enough to go and enjoy -- don't forget, I was what, 18 years. So what did 18 years do here? The same thing they do over there.

We went to dance. I remember the place where we used to go. It was called coffee shop, but not the type of a coffee shop what we call here a coffee shop. It was much Interview with Frank Hyde *deg May 4, 2013

more elaborate, it was more like a, I would say really full blown restaurant with a dancing --

Q: Place.

A: --room --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- spot where you could dance, and the young people were dancing, we were dancing. But that gradually has changed, because --

Q: Did your father lose his job?

A: Sorry?

Q: Did your father lose his job?

A: No, I don't think he lost the job at that point. I think he retired, he was forced to retire. So he was home, my mother was always home. I don't know how they were making a living, I was -- but I remember the first salary which I got when I was working for that Jewish firm, naturally my obligation was to bring it home. That was understood. It was never thought by me tha -- or by the parents, that somehow I would take it and spend it somewhere. We were -- that was ex -- you know, that was anticipated and expected from you. Life was very different in those days. But it has changed, you know. I lost that job because ultimately he found out that I was Jewish, Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

or whatever, and it was [indecipherable] how could I have worked with somebody with a swastika, and all this stuff. Soon it became --

Q: What was his manner, though? Excuse me --

A: -- it became worse.

Q: Okay. The manner of that person who ended up taking over the firm, with the swast -- did he -- was his manner arrogant, was he --

A: No, no -- well, that was his mentality. But you know, th-the -- the life has changed, what has changed? The laws have changed. So th -- we were playing that soccer. Everybody realize there was no restriction, no nothing. But gradually the non-Jewish population was put on such pressure, not to socialize with Jews --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- that all of a sudden your friends, were afraid to be your friends. So, the relationship has ceased. Everything became a separate society. The Jewish people were -- we had to wear Jewish stars, we had to be home at eight o'clock. So there were certain restrictions which were put on the Jewish population, which became, you know, like what they call here [indecipherable] it didn't happen overnight, but it was, you know. The first thing, for example, that I remember, as a kid I used to play the violin. Well, don't ask me what day, what year, but all of a sudden we were supposed to submit all those musical instruments to a certain place. Well, but it's not ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013 that I didn't agree, you -- you were afraid not to agree. So you did what you were doing, because the Catholic population, they could not help you, because they were afraid themselves. So, the -- the -- the hostilities, or the violence, increased. So that there was a distinct difference between the Jewish population, and the non-Jewish population. And the very first transport, as I remember, a cousin of mine, he was much older than I was, but that's not the issue, the only reason I'm saying it, because with his wife, somehow they had no children. She -- she lost a child and she couldn't have more children, or whatever, they were one of the first ones to be deported to a Polish ghetto which was called Ledz, l-o-d-z, is a town in Poland.

They survived there until a certain time, when that was also liquidated, and he wound up in Auschwitz. Lost his leg in Auschwitz and everything else, but they came back after the war, and -- because so few people survived, I was reasonably close to them at one point, you know. Remember, the age was different, he was born 1900, and I was born 1921, so it's 20 years different. So when we came back, I was only 22, 24, he was already close to 50.

Q: Right.

A: So there was a different. But eventually they also left for Austria. Austria was very helpful. Interview with Frank Hyde % May 4, 2013

Q: Okay, let's go back then, to life gradually changing, and there's this separation between the Jews and the non-Jews, and a marginalization, from what I'm seeing, you're put on the margins of society, where you're not --

A: Yes.

Q: -- allowed to do things that you were allowed to do before. When did -- let me go back even before that. Did you know Georgine by that time?

A: Yes.

Q: How did you meet Georgine?

A: Well, we were kids, we were dancing the same group of people.

Q: So you were friends from chil -- from childhood?

A: Sorry?

Q: You were friends from childhood?

A: Well, not from childhood, but when she was maybe 14 - 15, and I was four years older, you know. Now, what the Jewish people did, or at least our group did, there was somebody who -- the father had the wholesale business, and the wholesale business was in a building which he owned, in the old section of Prague, not far from where I was growing up. And they used to go to that house to dance. But remember, in those days we talk about zillion years back.

Q: Not a zillion. http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde 8 May 4, 2013

A: Yeah, you had a gramophone, if you remember, and that had to be hooked up, and you put the disk on it, and that's the music we used to have.

Q: Yeah.

A: If you remember "Pennies from Heaven."

Q: Yeah.

A: Well, that was a --

Q: That was one song --

A: -- thing which was in, you know, insp -- but also, at that time, why did it change?

Because also Jewish people who spoke German, very little Czech -- Czech nationals, but they were living in those border countries. So when those border countries had to be given back to Germany, because sh -- they came back. So, naturally they were Jewish, and we were Jewish, so somehow there were more of these girls, who came back from these countries, so we were, all of a sudden, instead of six people, we were say 12 people or 14 people. And we used to go to dance -- I don't remember its name, but that's not important. We went to that house, and in those days you had -- I think Georgine had it, was an electric gramophone, so you didn't have to crank it up

Q: Crank it up. http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde # May 4, 2013

A: -- you had to plug it in, and that was the music we used to dance to. But that's -- gradually it changed. It was very difficult, it was dangerous to go and be found out that you do these things, which were --

Q: Normal things.

A: --normal things, but they not normal under those conditions. So it has changed, you know, so you know, the deportations started. The deportations didn't start in Auschwitz, it started in that first ghetto, which they said will be a model ghetto.

Q: What was it called?

A: Theresienstadt. Terezin, in Czech. Now Terezin was of --

Q: Excuse me, before that, when did the deport -- how did people find out that they're going to be deported? There's still a gap between when life stops being normal --

A: Well, for example, her fa -- parents, because they were [indecipherable] they had a house. So number one they had to move out of their house, their house was given to some German family, a -- a lieutenant or whatever he was, you know. So it started gradually, you know, it was not that there were mass transportation, or deportations, no. But a limited amount of people were sent to Terezin.

Q: I want to -- excuse me -- interrupt and finish one thought --

A: Okay. Interview with Frank Hyde *8 May 4, 2013

Q: -- before, which was, you and Georgine are in the same group of friends, and you were dancing. How did your relationship develop? How did it develop that you had

A: Well, that -- I don't think I remember how it developed, you know. It was the same group of people that used to go to dance. Now how --

Q: Yes, but fr -- i -- but at one point you're dancing, and then you're married. What happened?

A: Well, no, no, it was -- well, no. Used to go to dance, like I said.

Q: Yeah.

A: The marriage didn't happen that way.

Q: How did it happen?

A: The marriage happened because all of a sudden the edict came -- don't hold me to the numbers.

Q: Okay.

A: Five hundred men, 5,000 men, we had to report to be deported -- when you were single. So everybody who had a girlfriend got married. We didn't get married because we thought we would have children in the United States. We got married because we -- once you were married, you postponed the deportation. Now, under those circumstances which existed at that time, everything in your life at the time, Interview with Frank Hyde %deg May 4, 2013

was to delay the deportation, because you knew where you were, but you did not know what will come once you go. So you did anything to delay the deportation. So if you -- if you look at the calendar, you will remember that in 1941, when we got married, Pearl Harbor happened.

Q: That's right.

A: So we thought, oh my gosh, now the United States will go to war with the -- it will be over before we go.

Q: Yeah.

A: So everything was done to delay that thing. Now, since you were married all of a sudden, whether it was this girlfriend, or this -- or vice versa, from the girl's point of view, we got married. Now, of course, the circumstances were very, very different already. Number one, we had to wear a Jewish star. Transportation, there was hardly any in place. Now the streetcars, which we had at that --- remember, we talk about 1939 - 1940, so different now, no doubt. But at the time we had streetcars. And the streetcars, the entrance was in the middle. So there was a front part, and a rear part.

So the Jewish people had naturally to be in the rear part.

Q: Of course.

A: So when we got married, well, we had to go to the rear part, to -- I don't know where we went. No, I know where we went. Her sister [indecipherable] you know, http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013 the life in Prague at that time, there -- there was no different between I told you, Jews, non-Jews, people got married. So her sister got married to a Czech person, not Jewish person. And they were living in a certain place, I can't remember the street any more, but I remember where it was.

Q: What's the neighborhood?

A: Sorry?

Q: What was the neighborhood?

A: It was called Libe, I-i-b-e and on the end was like a little --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- something, like that. And sh -- I don't know if it was her house, or an apartment, I don't remember that, but I know it was supposed to -- that's where we had our quote, wedding celebration, if you want to call it. But all this was in a very, very limited way.

Q: Of course.

A: Because the circumstances were not to allow you to do something ostentiously(ph) or something --

Q: Yeah.

A: --no. But we got married in October 1941, and like I just told you, because so many young men were supposed to report -- let's call it to Madison Square Garden Interview with Frank Hyde * May 4, 2013

for work. Now once you were married, you still reported, but you were not deported.

Now the deportation were already taking place. Now, if I may inject something --

Q: Sure.

A: -- what I was doing when I quote lost my accounting job? You had to work. If you didn't work, you didn't get your stamps, which you needed to buy food, so we had to work. So naturally you had no choice what you would like to do for work.

You were told what to do. Now, you have to realize that some of these Jewish people, including her father, mother, when they were deported, they left behind this, let's say. So that had to be emptied, because the landlord wanted to rent it. so he couldn't rent it when all the stuff was there. So I was assigned to a unit which was emptying out sewing machines. [horn sound] My ear?

Q: No.

A: Oh, this were --

Q: It's a car outside.

A: The -- the sewing machines in those days were heavy clunkers. I don't know if you remember that, they were, you know, big stuff. Iron. Not like now plastic, and you put it on the table

Q: Yeah, yeah, yeah. http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde deg May 4, 2013

A: So mirrors, pictures and sewing machines were a -- were taken out of those apartment and they were stored in a large synagogue in a suburb of Prague. I was in that unit which was doing this --

Q: Work.

A: -- work. Now, since we had pictures from the Jewish family -- at that time, if you remember, maybe you don't remember, because your age, west Europe was already under the attack by British, maybe American planes. So some of these planes hit German households. So the German government gave these burned-out families, something what we have here, what we call food stamps. Now, they were not having food stamps, but they had stamps to buy certain things, to reestablish them in Prague, or wherever they were living. Now, let's shall -- talk about Prague, because that's where I was active. So when they came, and they had these stamps, coupons, or whatever it was, that they could buy two paintings. Now, naturally they didn't pay for it, they gave you that stamps in return. But there was no gallery, like here in a gallery, you know, you -- that was a pile of paintings, that it was segregated between certain items of paintings; animals, or flowers, or whatever. They -- in German they call it stil leben.

Q: Stil leben, yeah. Interview with Frank Hyde *deg May 4, 2013

A: So, I remember that when these people came in, they wanted to have a stil leben for their dining room, so I had to hold it, because they wanted to look at it. So when I was holding it, you know, that's how you hold stil -- why do I mention it? So when we got married, in October 1941, and I was still working for that Jewish organization, assembling the sewing machine, pictures, and all that stuff. So when we had to report to, quote, Madison Square Garden, there was naturally an SS guy who directed the -- the people, the traffic where you had to check in, where you had to go. Somehow he remembered that he was buying -- buying a painting that -- which I was holding. So, h-he called me out from the deportation, and he said, you stay here. So naturally then -- remember, I spoke perfectly German, I had German schools, and then you --

Q: Right.

A: -- improve it, because everything was German. So I was telling him that I have also a wife here. So somehow we found where Georgine was, and the delay, again, everything was always delay, delay, delay.

Q: What about your parents? Were they --

A: My parents, they sta -- that was a difference, I --

Q: We'll come to that. Interview with Frank Hyde *!

May 4, 2013

A: --T'll tell you. So, we were delayed, not by a long time, no, but it was a delay.

Week, or something, whatever. You talk about my parents. My sister worked for the Jewish government, the government which was connected to the German government. Don't forget, the Germans didn't do any orders, they gave the orders to the Jewish government. So there was a Jewish police, there was a Jewish this -- everything -- not everything, of course, but within certain -- so my sister was working for that Jewish organization, call it the Jewish government. And that was primarily because, if you remember I told you, that person who came into our house where we were living. So he knew my mother, he knew my sister --

Q: This Edelstein(ph)?

A: Edelstein(ph). So he was delaying their deportation. So they stayed [indecipherable] in Prague much longer than I and Georgine, or her parents.

Q: Got it.

A: How long [indecipherable] how long, but you know, eventually they also came to Theresienstadt, just like my sister. But sh -- my sister, from the job in Prague, she had the same job in Theresienstadt, because --

Q: What was that job?

A: -- she was working for the Jewish government.

Q: What was the job? ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Frank Hyde * May 4, 2013

A: The office.

Q: Office work.

A: You know, don't forget they had -- they had statistics, they knew how many people they killed. I tell you they knew exactly how they killed. They had system, and if you read back, you know, the papers what I have here -- I will have to look for it to show it to you, tru -- they knew my transportation number when I was, well, with Georgine, when we left Prague for Theresienstadt, the -- the transport had a name, the transport had a number. We had a number. I don't remember the number, of course, but I have papers here to show you. So, my parents were actually deported later.

Q: Okay.

A: They -- they perished, of course, just like everybody perished. But they -- later th -- they lived a little longer, let's say, before they got into Auschwitz, and Auschwitz was, of course, the end of it. Because you, when you were in Auschwitz, and you came with a train, and in front of you stood that doctor, whatever his name was. And he decided as you go this way, or that way. Natch -- now, you have to realize, I like to tell you, we know now when we say the word Auschwitz, we know what it is.

But you have to go back to 1941, when we got married, "42. So when we were living in Theresienstadt, our clothes -- they didn't have any prisoner clothes -- it was http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde *8 May 4, 2013 horrible. But it was a paradise compared to what happened. Why do I say it?

Because, you know Theresienstadt is an old town, named after Queen Theresienstadt, or whatever she was [indecipherable]

Q: Theresa, mm-hm.

A: And naturally, those were barracks for the Czech armed forces. Now there wasn't that much space, nor that many beds or anything. So they constructed bunks, three on top of each other. So that was a terrible shortage of space. When you went to the bathroom, you had to have your container for soap, you went there, you know. It was not a bathroom in a sense, like you go here. So, it was very difficult. The crowds. You had to wait in line to get your food, you know. So when you come from a normal atmosphere like here -- and I don't mean my house per se --

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: -- and then all of a sudden you have a regimented life, you have to be there seven o'clock, or nine o'clock, or whatever. And then you slept three on top of each other, which one are you going to go? On top, in the middle, or down below? So there were arguments among people, Jewish people, but don't forget, they were not only Jewish people there --

Q: Of course. http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde * May 4, 2013

A: -- there are also Jewish people from some other places, because it was supposed to be a model ghetto, and hit -- and Hitler was running the border over. So it became extremely crowded. Now, in that Theresienstadt, the first x months, I can't tell you how many months, but I was assigned to distribute coal, because I was working in the coal firm, so I was assigned to a coal job. What was the job? Well, all these people who were living in these places, they were assigned boxes, with the two handles here, two handles over there, and that you had to fill this -- this up with coal, and they took it in wherever they were staying. The houses were condr -- houses -- th-they were n-not houses like --

Q: Barracks.

A: -- you know, when -- shacks. But that was converted so that some people could have -- like there is mostly men, or mostly women, and they needed heat, so they were getting the coal. So, at one point, the -- you know, when -- when the coal normally was sold, or delivered, there used to be a little hut with a scale outside. So, because of my coal co-connections, I was given the use of that thing. So Georgine moved back in with me, in that --

Q: Hut.

A: -- hut, they call it. In the -- in the public [indecipherable]

Q: So you ha -- so you had your own private place in the hut. Interview with Frank Hyde 8 May 4, 2013

A: [had my private scale. But like I say, it was awful, but it was wonderful to what has happened. So, in September --

Q: Hang on. Before we get there --

A: Sure, sure.

Q: -- ther -- because there is some gaps here. The last we knew, is that the SS officer pulls you out of line, and -- and you have a delay.

A: Couple days more.

Q: Ah, it was a couple of days.

A: Oh yes.

Q: It wasn't like a month, or two months, or na -- something like that?

A: Oh no, no, a coup -- couple days. I had to rej -- re --

Q: You had to --

A: --reappear, whatever you want to call it, yeah.

Q: Oh, I see. And so no --

A: And then we went, naturally.

Q: Okay.

A: To -- to Theresienstadt. Interview with Frank Hyde *deg May 4, 2013

Q: I understand, but here's -- can you -- you don't remember that -- that gathering place that you call Madison Square Garden? Do you remember the name of where you were told to go?

A: No. I would lie if I tell you I remember, no, no. [indecipherable] Velitic(ph) was like a--

Q: What was Velatrishnik(ph) what --

A: Velitic(ph) means like a-- like a huge -- we have something in New York City, Javits --

Q: Center.

A: Something like that --

Q: A convention center.

A: -- you know, it was, of course much smaller, everything was smaller than here.

Q: But it was called Velitrish(ph)?

A: Velitic(ph). Velitic(ph) is a name like it was --

Q: I know. Is it -- it's a place, however?

A: Yes, yes, yes.

Q: All right. And it was -- was it near the train station, was it near -- was it --

A: I would not know.

Q: You would not know, okay. Interview with Frank Hyde * May 4, 2013

A: I would not know.

Q: Okay, okay.

A: But from there, I di -- must have been some across the train station, because --

Q: Oh, that's right.

A: -- we were deported by train.

Q: Okay.

A: Now, I don't -- I don't remember where it was, you know, certain things disappear from your memory, you know.

Q: That's okay. That's okay.

A: Don't forget that what you're talking about, happened 70-odd years ago.

Q: I know. I know. I know. It's amazing what you're able to tell us from that time.

A: Oh, I remember these things like if it happened yesterday, yes.

Q: Yeah.

A: Certain things.

Q: Certain things.

A: And certain things you don't remember.

Q: So, here's another question before we go back to Theresienstadt. Life changed after Hitler marched in.

A: Yes. ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Frank Hyde 8 May 4, 2013

Q: And that was in March 1939.

A: That's correct.

Q: And then the war starts September deg39.

A: That was because Hitler didn't keep his word that the Czech territory was his last territorial --

Q: Right.

A: -- demand. He had a demand on Poland.

Q: That's right.

A: And he marched into Poland on September 1*t --

Q: That's right.

A: -- 1939,

Q: My

Q: did life change even more when there was an actual war?

A: Yeah, of course, of course, of course.

Q: How?

A: Well, ha -- again, we had to be home by eight o'clock, you couldn't do out, you couldn't do this. There were restrictions.

Q: So was like a -- okay.

A: Musical instruments we had to give up. The star, and you know, that all happened. Interview with Frank Hyde *deg May 4, 2013

Q: But, is that because of the war, or is that --

A: That -- that happened between them marching in. When they marched in, nothing happened. You were living like you were living before.

Q: Okay.

A: But s-slice.

Q: Slice, okay.

A: Slice this, you know, then that -- that they -- look, we used to go to play cards with that friend of mine, who was, of course, Catholic. He was my -- playing soccer, I was the right wing, he was playing next to me, whatever we used to call it. So we were friends. So we used to go to -- they were living very close to where I was living, when we talk about park.

Q: Yeah.

A: So, in the evening, whatever during the day, he was working, I was working. So during the evening, we went to see, in his home, such an old house, I remember like today. And we were playing cards, you know, killing the evening. There was no television, of course, you know, in those days. So we played cards. The mother divorced -- his mother. And me -- and wa -- she was dating somebody who was German. But he was very -- you know, not every German was a Nazi at that point.

Q: Of course, of course. Interview with Frank Hyde degdeg May 4, 2013

A: But, they deteriorated. Then it came that we could not stay longer than eight o'clock, we had to be home. So we had to go from his house to my house, to go home, because you didn't like to take a chance if somebody would catch you on the street. So it gradually became worse and worse and worse, you know? And then, all of a sudden, you couldn't see him any more, because he was afraid if he was -- if somebody will see him with a Jew --

Q: He gets into trouble.

A: -- that he will have a problem.

Q: Yeah.

A: But talking about the German language and all that, Auschwitz, you know, when I was comparing it to that here, 9/11, when we had that World Trade Center coming down, I know where I was, I'm sure you know where you were.

Q: Yeah.

A: And I saw the first plane hitting the thing. Well, at that time my assumption was that the guy lost his bearing, or something happened to the plane, and he hit the building. So the same was with Auschwitz, you know, when you -- when you don't know, and you are confronted with these unknown things, what happened? So, coming back to Theresienstadt, they got there in March "43. And from March deg43 to September "44, everything was Theresienstadt, okay? Interview with Frank Hyde *" May 4, 2013

Q: Ah, so you actually were in Prague until March deg43?

A: Yes.

Q: Living under -- okay?

A: My name, prag -- Pekarek.

Q: Okay.

A: And I was working for the Jewish government, removing --

Q: Stuff from the houses.

A: -- but it didn't happen right away, I was still working under the German guy.

Q: Yeah.

A: And then, when I lost that job, if you want to call it, then -- then they assigned me to this thing, and then I was assembling the sewing machines, paintings, mirrors.

Q: Things like that.

A: And then, in f-- March "43, well, we had to go.

Q: Okay. Okay, so in Theresienstadt, you're there from March four --

A: Nine -- March "43 --

Q: Forty-three.

A: --to September "44. What happened September "44? September 28 is a Czech holiday. So we were told that we have to build a new camp, always the new camp. I http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde deg May 4, 2013 don't -- I can't -- what I don't know, I'Il tell you. I don't remember if it was 500, or 5,000 --

Q: Right.

A: -- or anything in between, men. So, we were assembled, and we had to -- we had to go to these open boxcars, which were full of coal that had to be taken out, the coal, and we had to go in. Then they took off March -- September 28, eastward.

Now, we knew that the American allied soldiers were coming westward, but they didn't get far enough for us to get out, whatever. So when the train was full of people, open boxcars, well, you know what people do, you know. People have to go to the bathroom, there is no food. I have to interject here something, because my friend out on Long Island, he always says, well, what about food? And I always tell him, Fernando, there were no dining cars, you know. But there's something else. So after we were traveling east -- northeast, there was somebody, as I remember it like today, in a stripe -- remember, Theresienstadt, we had our clothes. So that was also, you know, where you put it, and all that stuff. So there was always a shortage of space, and you intermingled stuff, and it wa -- it was really a source of trouble. But when we were traveling east, there was a guy in str-striped uniform. And we get out of those boxcars, where are you from? Because we wanted to know what camp is he Interview with Frank Hyde *8 May 4, 2013

from. And he said Auschwitz. Now that didn't -- that's like if you would say something.

Q: Yeah.

A: Didn't mean a thing. Well, we continued traveling for I don't know how many days. And finally we got in to something which we -- was called Auschwitz. But you know, again, the Germans, what they did, they tried to intimidate you right from the first moment you entered this whole area. The train didn't s-stop, yes, but not that everybody had to get out of the train. It took, I think, two days before they finally set everybody out of those boxcars, and get out. And the train was going around, around, and you had no idea, because there were no signs. You didn't know how -- where -- how come that we go around. Nobody was there to tell you anything, of course. So finally when we came to a stop, which was like, I would say, the couple of days after, October first, second, I don't know for sure. Well, we to get out, you know, orders in German. And my -- we were together, her father, the two uncles, the two doctors, and also some other relatives from her mother's side.

Q: Were you toge -- was Georgine with you?

A: No, no, no, no.

Q: Okay.

A: Her father-in-law. Was only men. Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

Q: Okay.

A: So, well, we had to get out, and then you were confronted by that top German guy who was -- welcoming you, whatever. And he -- my father-in-law, he was saying that he's a -- he was not old, but in his mind, he was old. He was only 50 years, fif -- exactly 50 years, but you know, he lost his house, he lost his business, and everything else. So he felt he's old. So he was telling him in German that he's an old man. So he had to go this way. Well, the two brothers, the doctors, me and someone, this way. Well, once you are split, you try to find out what happened to the people who are the other way.

Q: The other place.

A: Well, they to -- they told you here is gas chambers, crematoriums, and the only way out of here is through the chimney, you know. So, if you find out what happened to him, and well, then we were in Auschwitz. First the shoes had to be disinfected, so they put it into water. Well, this was intimidation, you know? So now you had shoes wet, icy cold. Auschwitz is in a very cold area of southern Poland, standing in those freezing temperatures, wet shoes, no coats, no nothing. They give you pants, but those pants are like, you know, his pants were, if he -- I don't mean your pants what you have on, but me that would be obviously, you know.

Q: Yeah. Interview with Frank Hyde degdeg May 4, 2013

A: But then you were assigned to a barrack. Those were stables for the Polish armed forces horses. Don't forget the time is still horses. So, if you had to have equipment, horses had to pull it, not a car. Gasoline was very difficult. So the -- the -- the -- the stables they had, seven floors, of course. And they were contructions(ph) for the horses, but contructions(ph). The size was just about like the table. Not high, I don't mean that, the s -- the size. And that was on the floor, and the edges were a little higher. So think of it as on the floor, but the end was a little higher.

Q: Okay.

A: Why was the end higher? Because the people had to put 0-oats into that contraption, so the oats were not all over.

Q: Right.

A: Then the horses ate the oats, or whatever else they were eating. Now for us, the height was good because we put our head on it. There were no beds, like at Theresienstadt we had bed -- we had beds, we had bunks, but that was still --

Q: It's still a space, yeah.

A: -- regular -- you know. So that was -- th-that stuff on the floor, cold as it was, you know. It was awful, awful. So one of --

Q: When did you find out --

A: -- the uncles -- Interview with Frank Hyde degdeg May 4, 2013

Q: Yeah.

A: -- of Georgine, doctor.

Q: Yeah.

A: He said, we don't stay here. Well, that's easier said than done.

Q: Yeah.

A: Naturally. So he was -- he came up with this story that if they do nothing, they will not survive, because the cold weather, the food, no food, nothing. So he said that the best will be for us to say that we are locksmiths. And I always say that's the only lie I lied in my life, because I said I'm a locksmith. So we s -- but he figured that if we say we would be locksmiths, that they would send us into some kind of a factory, and it would be inside, rather than somewhere outside, digging roads, or something.

Q: Right, right.

A: Well, he was right. They were always -- they were always counting how many are alive, and all that stuff, in Auschwitz.

Q: When did -- where -- again, I'll go back a little bit. In Theresienstadt, what was the mortality like? Were there a lot of people who --

A: Ire -- don't know.

Q: I mean, did you see people dying -- Interview with Frank Hyde *" May 4, 2013

A: Of -- of course, old people, we used, of course [indecipherable]. Of course, the old people were dying, but they were buried.

Q: I see.

A: Sure. And I think they started with Auschwitz from Theresienstadt, because I think really the Germans were concerned that maybe some disease, or some uprising might happen, you know, over the multitude of people, you know, and now, of course, they had th -- they had the weapons, we had nothing, of course.

Q: Yeah.

A: But they would have to shoot.

Q: Yeah.

A: All that blood, and all that mess which would probably happen. So they started with the deportation out of Theresienstadt, you know? I think that was the main reason, apart from getting rid of the Jewish population.

Q: And you didn't know where Georgine was?

A: Sorry?

Q: At -- at that time, you didn't --

A: No, no, no.

Q: -- you didn't know where Georgine -- Interview with Frank Hyde 8 May 4, 2013

A: We left Georgine and her mother behind. They followed, because that -- the excuse was, you want to follow your husbands, your brothers, you can go tomorrow.

So three days later, she went with her mother, the same way. Of course, she never saw her mother again, because again, the age, you know. But Georgine was shipped to a Russian camp from Auschwitz.

Q: Where was she shipped?

A: She was called -- it was called Gross-Rosen.

Q: Ah, to Gross-Rosen, okay, mm-hm.

A: That's where she stayed until the end of the war. But she was always sick, you know, women are very different, in case you don't know. The women body is a very different body than a man's body, so she -- she came back, she was sick from day one. Of course, she came back to Prague, where I was, you know, first thing hospital. She had to be put back into a normal stage, which she wasn't.

Q: So-

A: But Auschwitz, you know, then we were locksmiths.

Q: Yeah, locksmiths.

A: You remember, my name was Pekarek?

Q: Yeah. Interview with Frank Hyde degdeg May 4, 2013

A: So, at one time, we had to, again, assemble to go -- there was no travel agent, you know, they told you have to get out of the thing, and you were standing there, then they told you will be transported someplace, so the tr -- they call the names. Now, lots of people changed their names, not legally. Why? Because they were afraid in case they would be punished or beaten up, or whatever. They might have ramification to the family somewhere else.

Q: Right.

A: So, lots of young men changed the name from A to B, or B to C. I didn't change mine, I was still Pekarek. And -- but the -- the transportation, the first transportation stopped at K, and because I was Pekarek, they were F, Feldmans --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- they left, and I stayed behind. Because there were only so many empty on the train --

Q: Right.

A: -- to go wherever. So, we met only after the war with those people again. They survived, and I survived, as a locksmith, but not in the same place. Reasonably, you would say like I was in Muncie, and they were in Poborno(ph), or something like that.

Q: Yeah, yeah. ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

A: Of course, you couldn't travel freely, that was out of question. But I cus -- I stayed behind, unfortunately, and because I stayed behind, you always have to do something what they told you to do. So for maybe about a month, or six weeks or so, I had to -- I was assigned to a group which was taking out the dead bodies from the gas chambers, which had to be taken to the crematorium. You didn't like to leave dead bodies in the gas chambers, you had to go to the crematorium and burn them.

And then, you know, th-the ashes was nothing. So the -- the transportation took place on a--I don't know how you would call it, it had two Vs on each side, and a piece of wood was like this, you know? We were not so strong, I can't tell you how many we had to push always to get to the gas chambers. Take the bodies out, put them on that stretcher [indecipherable] and transport them to the crematorium. Well, that went on for some time, I would say maybe about a couple of -- maybe about a month or SO.

Q: Wasn't it a shock?

A: Well, sweetheart, that was life at that time. Then -- then he finished, and the transportations then again, was through that -- where I was, as a locksmith. If you have a huge map of Germany, you probably found town one in --

Q: Yeah. Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

A: --on the map. It was called Meuselwitz. Very close to where Uncle Bert was with his brother, but not in Mosul, it's a very different place. And you were working there from six to six.

Q: And what did you do there?

A: What I did after that?

Q: No, no, no, in Meuselwitz.

A: What I was doing -- it was a huge machine. We were producing casings for the German navy. You had a machine you p-put -- remember, I was a locksmith, so you pressed it, the thing was about this big -- not that --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- you know, maybe bigger, but narrower. And you had a bucket, and that -- you had to fill up the bucket. I can't tell you how many buckets a day, or whatever, from six to six. Well, then you went back to where you were supposed to be housed, but it was temporary shelter, really. Was no bed. Was just one thing big from there to hear, and today you slept here, tomorrow you slept there. Boys or old men only. And in the morning you did the same thing. Six to six. And I have to tell you how I got out, because really that was what people always say, well, who -- who -- who liberated you. And I have to say, I was not liberated in that sense. Remember what I ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013 was telling you is the truth. The only not truth is locksmith. So, w-we came back, wha-whatever the date was. April 7.

Q: You came back to where?

A: To -- where we were sleeping.

Q: Ah, so in Meuselwitz, you're still --

A: From the factory --

Q: To the place.

A: -- they took us back to where we were sleeping.

Q: Okay.

A: But instead of sleeping, we had to empty a tray of briquettes. You know what briquettes are? Briquettes are about this big. So we had to empty that tray from the briquettes. Well, then -- then that [indecipherable] the tables, and they threw the briquettes, they chased us in. So again, you know, you are in a train, like my friend always, what about food, what about food? First of all, we were already dehydrated, the body was stopped, like you sitting here --

Q: Right.

A: --or I'm sitting here. I don't know how many pounds we had, but food was not really the item which bothered you, so to speak. So then she starts back into the Interview with Frank Hyde s May 4, 2013

train, and the train took off east, just like from Theresienstadt east, this time from Meuselwitz, Germany, east. Away from those upcoming American soldiers.

Q: One point here, I just want to establish. So, if | understand properly, you were in Auschwitz for about two months or so?

A: No, I was there longer than that. I got to -- in Auschwitz in September 28, so we got there like, I would say, October first.

Q: Right.

A: And out of Auschwitz, somewhere around Christmastime.

Q: Okay, okay.

A: So I would say about three months.

Q: Three months. Three months.

A: And then from Christmas to the quote, liberation where I'm trying to tell you --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- in Meuselwitz.

Q: In Meuselwitz, okay.

A: Now the Meuselwitz didn't have any accommodation, like I just said --

Q: Right.

A: -- it was -- you know why? Because the German people, they were very all -- either on the east front, or west front, and they needed the manpower, so they were 74 Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013 interested in producing it. Anyway, so when the order came to get inside those boxcars east -- but you have to realize, that was not Germany of the 1940s, that was Germany of a defeated country. The railroads were ripped up from the bombing of the United States. So the transportation wasn't like that you hop in here and you wind up there, no. It was very difficult. Not for u-- I mean, we were just prisoners, and we had to do whatever we were told, but it was not so easy for them either. So we were traveling for two days, eastward. Then we came to a place in Germany, or maybe western Poland, or something. Next to us was a train with German soldiers.

They were heading west, we were heading east. It's like that, okay. I was like this, they were on this side. So my particular boxcar, we were told to get out of the boxcar so that they could count how we are still in the boxcar are living, because some people are die out of hydration, age, malnutrition, sickness. So they always counting. So while we were standing alongside our railroad car, next to us was a German car, right? I mean, the British bombers came by, and they started to dive, and started to shoot. Now, you know when you are up there and you starting to shoot, you don't shoot like this, you shoot like this, you know? So that you kill as many opponents you can kill. So there was a panic at that moment. We were out of the car. So, we -- wi -- wi [indecipherable] if you want to call it free. That's not the right word, but no supervision at that moment. So that was a hill, and I always call it Interview with Frank Hyde (r) May 4, 2013

the same like here. You know, you have a hill behind you, and you had to run up the hill, because you wanted to get away from the shooting. So we were -- remember, I was -- 1945, I was what, 24 years. So, you had the different stamina to run than you would have now that I'm 91. So we were running up. When I say we, there was always somebody who was closer to you. I remember one guy, his name, but I don't remember the other two who were running, Czechs, with us.

Q: Right.

A: So we got up on top of the hill. Now we were realizing that we didn't have any German guard watching us, right? We were free. Free, without any passport, without any papers, striped uniform. So free is a different thing for free. And that -- and the train, which I told you, the British bombers started to bomb. Eventually they hit the train. So there was a tremendous commotion. But we wound up on the top of the hill. So that -- what are we going to do? Are we going to stay here, get organized, or going back, or whatever. So we decided four of us, cold as it was, that we will stay overnight, and then we will think what we do the nec -- next day. So we decided one day to stay up on the hill, and maybe two nights, I don't remember for sure any more. But we decided to go back, because we thought, we had no papers, we had nothing. Where are we going to go? Not that we had anywhere to go down there, but at least we were not fugitives from -- Interview with Frank Hyde % May 4, 2013

Q: Right.

A: -- where we were. So we went down the hill, and as we were coming down the hill, believe it or not, our train took off. So we -- we really lost the train. The prisoners who were still there. We took only about one car, which was where we were. The rest was still inside. So, we left the train -- so we, when we saw the train moving, we ducked a little, to be sure that they don't start shooting. And they left, and we went back to the hill. So we were on that hill [indecipherable] Fernando will buy the food. I said, oh Fernando, there was no food, there was no service, that's for sure. But anyhow, we went back to the hill, and we stayed there another two days.

Q: No food, nothing, yeah?

A: Thinking where to go, how to go, what excuse.

Q: Yeah.

A: You know, the roads were all occupied by what we have here, National Guard, or what do we call it here?

Q: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

A: So we knew once we get down, that we will be confronted. The only thing, we spoke very well German, and we came up with a story that we will say we were http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013 Czech workers on the train, apart from prisoners from Auschwitz. So, we were different. We thought we are different from --

Q: Those.

A: -- and that our papers, in that commotion, we lost our stuff which we had, and that would have shown that we are Czech workers. So finally we decided we take a chance, we have to do it, because we don't live indefinitely on top of the hill. So we went down, a short enough distance, like you would say, maybe further down, maybe [indecipherable]. Sure enough, there was a station, this we -- soldiers with -- three, four soldiers with guns. So we put our hands up right away, that they don't start shooting. That's the approach, then w-we told them exactly what I'm telling you, that we were Czech workers, on work in Germany, in that factory where we were, and that our clothes was damaged in that attack, and that's what we saved, is what we have on. Well, you have -- you have to put you into jail, you have to see the magistrate the next day. So we were now in -- in a regular jail. Well, if you have a brain injury -- and I hope not [indecipherable] but it was the first time a regular jail.

There was discarded clothes. So, what we did, we took, instead of our prison clothes, we took the discarded clothes which was left there by whoever. So when this local magistrate, the next morning, we had ill-fitted clothes, but it was not --

Q: Striped. Interview with Frank Hyde (r) May 4, 2013

A: -- striped. The story was that we are Czech workers, that we were -- of course, we spoke German, that we were caught on the train, which was bombed by the British and we got -- you know, we were trying to get somewhere, out of, you know, where we were. Now, the most unexpected thing happen. The magistrate said that, you suffered enough, You are free to go wherever you want to go.

Q: So he didn't believe your story?

A: Well -- well, he let us go. So we were free. So then, coming back to Prague, how do you get back?

Q: Well, did you then have a paper, or a stamp, or something.

A: No, we had nothing.

Q: So you could have been stopped the next town over?

A: Yes, well, we were not stopped, you know, the situation was like here after 9/11.

You know, it was not -- it was not so rigid any more, you know.

Q: It was chaotic.

A: I-It was halted, you know.

Q: Yeah.

A: Now, I would like to also tell you at this point that the cars which existed, which were allowed to travel, didn't use gasoline. What they did -- the Germans are very inventive. The -- the cars which were allowed to take what I am telling you, they had Interview with Frank Hyde >> May 4, 2013

to cut out the passenger seat. The driver, was a driver, but the passenger seat was taken out, and they put in something like you would say, a contraption, with wooden chips. And the wooden chips had to be put on fire, and they produce a little bit of steam, and the steam produce the car to go. So when we tried to get to Prague hi -- not hijacking, ja -- jack -- how you call it here, when you --

Q: Hitchhiking.

A: -- hitchhi -- hitchhiking. So we tried to get to Prague hitchhiking, because we have, of course, no money, no paper, no nothing, four of us. So, a truck, which was something I remember like today, like a pickup truck, he stopped. Where do you want to go? Of course we said Prague, and he said he goes to Prague, too, but his truck -- where we were was a very hilly country. So he said, most likely the truck will not make it, you will have to get out, and have to push the thing to get over the

Q: Hill.

A: So we took seven days to get back to Prague, because he had only that thing on the side, producing the -- the s -- the steam. But we got to Prague April 20", Hitler's birthday, and they were still celebrating. That's it.

Q: My God.

A: It's the truth. Interview with Frank Hyde .deg May 4, 2013

Q: April 20".

A: Well, her sister was in the place where we thought we will meet. So since we didn't eat anything since that in-- you know that in -- that left, April seventh, April 20, 13 days.

Q: You hadn't eat anything for 13 days?

A: Who should have given me some? So she gave us -- I remember like today, tea.

Well, I said [indecipherable] something else. And shower, bathroom, because we had lice. If you know what lice does, you know, they crawl all over you. So, naturally she was afraid that we bring the lice into her home. So first was the bathroom, you know, staying there because how many hours, to kill the lice. And then a cup of tea. But you couldn't get out of that house, because we didn't have any papers, so we were afraid if you get -- we -- I was afraid, if you get out, you know, that somebody could stop us. And then what? Don't forget the hair -- th-the hair, you know. But during the camp, they shore it, so people knew that you are from somewhere else. So we stayed inside until May five. And quote famous Czech revolution started May five. Ended May nine, was horrible. Because people take vendettas, you know. Because you did this to my family, I did this to you, you know. Was very, very, very, very bad, very bad.

Q: What did you see, or what did you hear about? Interview with Frank Hyde ia May 4, 2013

A: People, you know, people found out where the Germans were hiding, and they killed them, of course. But if they would have killed them with one shot, is one thing, but that was not the case, it was awful. Those are the unfortunate results of war, you know? The people who depress people, you know, that comes out. But then, April -- May nine, it stopped. The nation came back to order. There was police, real police, you know. So gradually things get to order, and I -- and I have to again say the French, they were having all kinds of ways to reunite families. Don't forget, you didn't know where --

Q: They came to Prague?

A: -- Georgine, didn't know where she was, of course not. But they had s -- like we have here -- not here, in New York City --

Q: Mm-hm, yeah.

A: -- stands where you could have both newspapers. So those places, they hung up signs that you're looking for somebody last seen in this camp, in September, or something, you know, that he should report to this and this address, and stuff like that. So it took a little while to get it back into order. But those who survived, well, they had some arrangements, you know, like I told you about these two doctors.

They all were supposed to meet in her sister's house, and they did, one at a time. Interview with Frank Hyde * May 4, 2013

Well, once they came back, you know, then -- then, who survived, who didn't survive.

Q: Wow.

A: There's not much else I can add to it.

Q: There are more questions, but --

A: Somehow -- I don't know how I got the apartment, whether it was given to me, whether I could occupy it without a lease, or whatever, I don't remember. I had an apartment the old section of Prague, new building. No elevator, but it was on the second floor. I don't remember whether I -- I don't know how I maintained it, I didn't have any money. But eventually I got the job, you know, the one -- the one Jewish friend, one of them came back. Naturally, demanded his firm to be getting back. And eventually I started to work for him.

Q: This is --

A: Yeah, that's just about it.

Q: Well --

A: Anything else what you want to know, I gladly tell you the dates, the details.

Q: There's a lot I want to know.

A: Sorry? Interview with Frank Hyde a May 4, 2013

Q: Maybe -- maybe we -- the -- I don't know what time it is now, let me take a look.

Maybe we'll break for lunch, or have a little bit of a break, and then we'll continue later.

A: Well, I have to tell Georgine -- not Georgine, but Tammy(ph) and Elise.

Q: Yeah, yeah. And then --

A: What time is it?

Q: One o'clock.

A: Oh, really?

Q: Yeah.

A: Today is Saturday, right?

Q: That's right.

A: Let me find out where they are.

Q: Okay. Hang on, let me go, because you still have a mike on you.

End of File One Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013 Beginning File Two

Q: So, where we left off before was that you had made it back to Prague, after a most unusual kind of way of being liberated.

A: Oh yeah, when I left, yes, yes.

Q: You know?

A: This how it was.

Q: And you were at your sister's -- your sister's house, or your cousin's house who had married someone. Tell me again, whose house did you go to when you came back to Prague?

A: Tha-That was my wife's sister.

Q: Your sister-in-law?

A: Ge-Georgine's sist -- that would be my sister-in-law, that's correct.

Q: What was her name?

A: In English, Patricia.

Q: Uh-huh. And in Czech?

A: In Czech, Vlasta(ph)

Q: Vlasta(ph)?

A: Vlasta(ph) is Patricia in English.

Q: I never knew. I never knew. Okay. 85 Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013

A: Vlasta(ph) is Patricia in English.

Q: And was her home in the center of Prague?

A: No, she was living in Lieben. I don't remember the street any more, but so many years since you're out of there, you know.

Q: Of course. So, was it in a residential neighborhood, or was it a city neighborhood?

A: No, that was a residential neighborhood, yes.

Q: A city neighborhood, or --

A: Yeah, it was very nice, and again, you know, when -- when these deportations started, you always said well, you have to be somewhere, then you come back.

Nobody ever thought that you will not come back.

Q: Come back.

A: So yes, you -- you will come back, and you should have someplace where you will quote, meet.

Q: And Vlasta(ph), was she able to stay there because she was married to a non- Jew?

A: She was married to a non-Jew, but that actually it was a surprise that she somehow managed not to be involved, because that was not an excuse. She was Jewish, so under normal circumstances of that time, she would have had the same Interview with Frank Hyde *deg May 4, 2013

difficulties. But for some strange reason, nobody knew. The neighbors, of course, Czech. She married somebody by the name of Krejeik(ph).

Q: Krejeik(ph).

A: Now Krejeik(ph) is like a small tailor, in English. So the name was, of course, Czech, and she was married to him for quite a while. Well, they would have been ol- older than we, but I remember him, and she came here couple of times, we have a picture, we have a-- which I mentioned to you, a swimming pool.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: It is covered, you don't see it, you can only see the --

Q: The rim.

A: The -- the layout. But there were quite a few, somehow, survivors. Well, not just survivors, people who were born here. I told you about this uncle who was living in -- in Ecuador --

Q: That's right.

A: -- so that's i-- from this side the world. The picture shows quite a few people, you know?

Q: Okay. So, when you're back and -- and she sees you, could she recognize you when she saw you?

A: Oh yes, yes, yes. 87 Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013

Q: Okay.

A: Even without the hair. I mean, now I have normally no hair, but at the time it was short cut --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- you know, and -- and the language, you hear the same voice, and yes. So I had no problem with that part, no. And specially the bathroom. Now, you know, these are human, so when you go to the bathroom, you know what happen. You have to clean yourself, and --

Q: Right.

A: -- wash up yourself. There's something which didn't exist in Australia -- ah, in Australia, in -- in -- in Auschwitz. There were no bathrooms, you know, there was a piece of wood, and you had to sit down and do what you did, and there was no water. So you really -- you personal esteem, or hygiene, or whatever you want to call it, was absolutely nonexistent, you know. Just think of it, what she was talking about, that underwear. Well you, when you are in that kind of a cold weather, and you are not properly dressed, your nose is running con-constantly. So, at one time they were, probably as a make you feel miserable, or whatever, out of that prayer shawl, they made shorts. So -- which I started to tell you earlier. Somehow, when they were throwing out those shorts, I must have caught two, maybe they were

88 Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013 somehow intertwined. So one I put on, and the other one I tore to pieces, and this Uncle Fred and Uncle Bert, of course I gave them piece of that material, so they could wipe their nose, just like I could wipe my -- but Uncle Fred, who was living in Munnsville, upstate New York, after --

Q: The war.

A: -- the [indecipherable], he always said in his Czech language, I will never forget it; if | remember a present, you gave us that piece of cloth to wipe our -- and that was here, not there. He never forgot that. And he was treating John. John went, at that time, to Colgate University, undergraduate school, and we used to get -- get up there to visit Uncle Fred, with his wife, and John was there, so -- it was not so far from here, anyhow.

Q: Right, mm-hm.

A: It was far, but not that far that you could not make it, you know, so --

Q: Yeah, mm-hm, yeah.

A: -- we -- we saw them, occasionally. But all these people were older than we both were, so eventually we are just by ourselves. You know, my age, Georgine's not that far behind --

Q: Sure. Interview with Frank Hyde *deg May 4, 2013

A: -- you know. So uncles, they were -- they were born 1904 - 1910. [technical interruption, break]

Q: Okay, so we were talking about -- we were talking about when you were in Auschwitz, and how you gave your uncles your -- that is, Georgine's husbands a piece of --

A: A piece of un-underwear.

Q: -- a piece of what had been a prayer shawl, so that they could wipe -- you know, they could wipe --

A: Nose.

Q: -- their noses. I wanted to go back a little bit further, even before you're deported, because from what I understand now, you lived really, several years under Nazi rule in Prague.

A: Oh sure, sure.

Q: From -- from "38 --

A: Thirty-nine to deg42.

Q: From deg39 -- to deg42.

A: Three years.

Q: Yeah.

A: Yes. Interview with Frank Hyde "deg May 4, 2013

Q: So during that time, what was -- what was -- did you -- what did you hear about Richard Heydrich, who was the leader -- I mean, who was Hitler's man in Prague?

What did you know of him?

A: Well, of course I remember the name, H-Heydrich, of course. Well, one experience comes right to your mind. When he was killed, and they were looking around for those parti-partisans, they used to call them, who they suspected killed him, well, we were living in an apartment -- we were married, of course, and we were living in an apartment which was assigned to us, because the parents had to move out of the house where they were -- lived. And they were assigned to another Jewish family, which was, as soon as you remember Prague a little bit, near the Charles bridge.

Q: Bridge.

A: So we were living in that neighborhood, and I do -- I don't know what I was doing, but most likely working for the Jewish organization -- I shouldn't call it that way, but that's the way it was.

Q: Well, it sounds like an authority. Like an authority --

A: Jewish authority would be a better word.

Q: Yeah. Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

A: And I remember we were, of course, sleeping, and all of a sudden somebody burst into that room -- I don't know if they were soldiers, or SS soldiers, that I don't remember, but they were moving the furniture, which was not ours, which was, we had the furnished room. They were looking for some hidden escape routes which these partisans might have taken. That was the middle of the night, whether it was 10 - 12, that I don't remember, but I remember very well when they came.

Naturally, we were scared to death in bed, sleeping and all of a sudden somebody is there with weapons, and go -- moving the furniture to see whether it's a hidden staircase to go somewhere where that person might have been hiding.

Q: Right.

A: But ultimately, of course, they didn't -- didn't find anything, they left. But it was very difficult. The -- the conditions became worse. I don't mean living conditions like eating, no. It was more the freedom of moving around, yes. Because you were supposed to have the yellow star, and if they caught you without wearing it, without having the documents which a non-Jew had to produce, you -- it was punishable.

And the office which I was working at, was just across from the headquarter of the Gestapo. So we had the -- I have seen many things which normally people would not have seen, you know, that --

Q: Such as? Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

A: Well, the trucks with the prisoners, and the mistreating of prisoners getting into the building, and all this stuff. Was awful. That building was originally a bank, and it was owned by a Jewish person. The name was called -- like you have here Citibank, so that was called the Petschek bank. And he was known, you know, like you know here Rockefeller, so he was known there as Petschek the banker, you know. But what you have seen, yes, e-every 12 o'clock, a new guard came to replace the guard from the day before. So you have seen the power, the might what they had at that time. The streets were -- that particular location was at, that had all American presidents there. It was a Hoover Street, it was a Wilson Street, and there were more of them. So why they hurried there, I don't know, but that was that bank which they used for the Gestapo, you know.

Q: Was -- was the Gestapo headquarters, now was that parallel to Viasov's ginanisty(ph)?

A: Yes.

Q: Then I know the building.

A: Vlasov's ginanisty(ph), you are absolutely right. Vlasov's ginanisty(ph), it goes this way --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- and that's three-four -- the parallel, yes, yes. ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Frank Hyde *8 May 4, 2013

Q: Yeah, then I know the -- I -- I've passed by the building, yeah.

A: It was parallel.

Q: Yeah.

A: And that's -- that section of Prague had all these American presidents" name, probably just to show gratitude that they made --

Q: Made.

A: -- established the Czech Republic, or Czechoslovakia at that time, you know.

But wi -- again, the life was, before the Nazis came, that was -- we had the same freedom like here. There was no religious discrimination of any kind. If you were Jewish, you went to a Jewish temple, if you were Catholic, you went to a Catholic --

Q: Church.

A: -- church, or wherever you went. That has changed. People became more -- well, maybe afraid. Maybe that some of the true feeling also might have come out, you never know.

Q: Well, going back to Heydrich, when they burst in -- into the room in the middle of the night, did you have any idea why? Had you heard that Heydrich had been ch Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

A: Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh we -- we knew, oh to sh -- how can you not know?

Heydrich was -- you know, we had something called I-a-n-y, Lany. Lany was like we have here in the United States, Camp David.

Q: I see.

A: You see, when the president wants to relax, we -- whichever president, they don't go into politics, you went to Camp David because that was the summer, or the relaxation for the existing president. So we had that Castle Lany. And Heydrich was known that he travels between Lany and Prague, because he wanted to enjoy the same thing like --

Q: Right.

A: -- the president enjoyed that Lany, you know, the castle which was there. But somehow those partisans which were dropped by the British, they found out his route, and eventually, naturally, killed him by -- I don't exactly remember any more.

The car was passing, and somehow exploded, or whatever. But it was big repercussions, yeah, because he was really the right hand of Hitler. So when they killed the right hand of Hitler, you know, they wanted to show -- and you know, they traced it back -- I don't know if you heard that story, they tri -- they traced it back that those partisans were staying, or were dropped off in a town called Lidice.

And out of sympathy, naturally, here in the United States, in Chicago, there is a ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Frank Hyde degdeg May 4, 2013 suburb called Lidice. Now, I don't know if they have changed it since then, or whatever, but there's a strong Czech community in Chicago, and they wanted to show that somehow the -- the west stands with that particular event. But, of -- of course I remember it, and there were pictures of Heydrich left and right. He was the right hand of Hitler, no doubt about it.

Q: Now in -- now, when they burst in in the middle of the night, that means it wasn't the same night that heyd -- or the same day that Heydrich had been attempted --

A: No, we had aft -- well, they were looking for the n-- you know --

Q: Right, for days.

A: -- and even if they knew the -- that -- that the people are God knows where, or maybe they were even killed, or whate -- they wanted to show the power they had, and to im -- intimidate everybody else.

Q: Were there other reprisals, after they captured those -- because I bel --

A: I don't remember exactly what would have happened afterwards, except that they took all these men, people -- and not only men, boys -- from the town of Lidice, and they burned it down. Females had -- I don't know whether they took the females, but it was awful, awful. And that kind of event warns the rest of the people, you know, they -- they say the non-Jews were afraid to --

Q: Right. http://collections.ushmm.org

Contact reference@ushmm.org for further information about this collection Interview with Frank Hyde *deg May 4, 2013

A: -- you know, talk with Jews, and -- and the fear was spread all over. So it's not like th-the people were against you. No, I told you, my best friend, he was playing soccer with me. Who cares whether he was Jewish or Catholic, or whatever. But the fear was there. So, out of fear, there was a certain -- call it segregation.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: And -- and it was imposed by -- by the system, you know.

Q: Okay, now let's jump to after the war. When you came back, how did life develop for you out of your sister-in-law's apartment? After that, you get better, it's

A: Well, I told you, somehow -- I don't know how I got the apartment, because there were also Germans who were thrown awa -- not thrown away, but they made them go back to Germany, or whatever. So I don't know how I got the apartment.

Certainly didn't pay for it, I had no money, I was a kid. Was it allotted to me by someone? I don't remember that part. I know I stayed with Georgine until -- and then her aunt, the one they were talking about, the close, she came to visit us when she was expecting George, the one who is a doctor near Washington, D.C. She was expecting him, and that was the first time she came to Prague and the first time they met her, so to speak.

Q: Also, excuse me, we haven't talked about how did Georgine come back? Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

A: Well, Georgine, I don't know how she came back, physically, but I think, which I mentioned to you, the French were trying desperately to put people together.

Q: Okay.

A: Now, if you think who paid for it, definitely nobody. That was the government's somehow obligation, or whatever. Georgine was sick, and I remember very distinctly, when she came, there were two of her good, best friends who really made her survive. Did I remember the name? One was, I think, Ruth but they call her Chekruthka(ph), and I forgot the second one. But they were not from Prague, so they stayed in Prague for a couple of days before they got the connection to wherever they going. One was through Moravia --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- which was the other state of Czechoslovakia. And | think they lost, you know, like always you lost track of each other, because people have different interests, and Georgine, she needed surgeries. She developed a thyroid condition. The thyroid is not only that it takes away your breathing, but also she developed a [indecipherable] on the -- on this side. That would be her left side, I think it was. So she had to have that taken out. It was not taken out in Czechoslovakia, but she was treated from it. Always the truth, it was taken out when we came here, in New York City. Not at the hospital, there used to be small op -- small practices. That was done Interview with Frank Hyde 8 May 4, 2013

on Park Avenue. Don't hold me to it, but I remember it was on 83"C/ Street, I think, between Park and Madison, closer to Park. And it had to be taken out, because the doctor said here that she would -- she would have difficulties. Now, come to think of it, why was it not done in Australia? She had it in Australia. But, you know, Australia of 19 -- when we got there, 1949, was a different Australia than 2013.

Q: That's right.

A: They were very backwards. Not because they were dumb or something, it was the location. They were so far away from anything, that i-it --

Q: That's right.

A: --it was -- it was a different Australia. That's why we also changed the name, because when I said my name is Pekarek, it was like talking to, you know, God knows what. So i-it was -- it was very difficult. Then, since she was here, she read her -- that the treatment here is much more progressive, with nuclear energy.

Q: I want to go back to when she comes back to Prague.

A: Yeah, please.

Q: Yeah. She's sick. Did you meet her -- did she return back to your -- her sister's apartment as well, and that's where you met her?

A: Yeah, but we had the -- we had the apartment which I told you I got in central Prague. Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

Q: Iknow, but your first meeting, when she comes back, do you remember it?

A: Well, I don't think I remember exactly the first couple of days, not really.

Q: Okay. No, so you ha -- all right. And -- and what -- but when she does come back, she's very sick --

A: Yes.

Q: -- and so she needs treatment.

A: Yes.

Q: And had you had your apartment that you were assigned, already by that time?

A: Yeah, oh yes, yes.

Q: I see. Okay.

A: [had the apartment -- you know, I was -- I told you I was in Prague April 20, when the nat -- when the Germans were still there --

Q: That's right, that's right.

A: -- celebrating Hitler. So, when the -- when -- when the revolution finished at May ninth --

Q: Yeah.

A: --I somehow, couple days later, I got the apartment, I don't know how.

Q: Oh, so it was within a few days, yeah. 100 Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013

A: But she wasn't there yet, no, she came much later, because she was on the Russian side, and they were not so organized bringing the people back, like when you were somewhere on the western side.

Q: Got it.

A: So eventually she did come back. Now how did she find me? Well, most likely through her sister.

Q: Okay.

A: That's my guessing now --

Q: Right.

A:--70 years later.

Q: Okay.

A: Do I remember exactly how she found me? No.

Q: And did you start working again?

A: Yes.

Q: What were you doing?

A: The same firm where I used to work before.

Q: Okay.

A: They claim -- there's a story to it also, they got it back because that [indecipherable] was theirs. ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Frank Hyde m May 4, 2013

Q: Right.

A: And we -- even if we had the left le -- leaning government, it was theirs, they got it back. And -- since they were quite well off, and they had connections to the United States. How? The original owner was a very old man. He had quite a few children. In those days, you know, there were not so many precautions not to get children, or pregnant, or whatever. So he had, I think, five or six of them. And two were living here in the United States very -- before the war started. One was in Philadelphia, and I don't know where the other one was living. So, they got the thing back, but because it was so left-leaning, the whole Czechoslovakia after World War II, because the Soviet Union, we were your protectors, and the country was really very much to the left, which we didn't care for. So this firm had difficulties with the labor force, because they were delivering coal, c-o-a-I-Il -- you know, coal?

Q: Yeah.

A: What you -- you know, don't forget, nowadays, you have have gas, you have all kinds of things.

Q: Yeah.

A: But in Prague, coal was the thing to make your morning coffee. So, it was very -- and horses were the ones which delivered the coal. 102 Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013

Q: Ah, so now I understand, you worked as an accountant for a coal company.

A: That's correct.

Q: I see. I thought it was an accounting company.

A: No, no, no, no, no.

Q: No, it was a coal company.

A: I was the accountant --

Q: For the coal co --

A: -- for a company which was selling coal.

Q: Okay.

A: And the owner was an old man, he had several sons, but two of them worked in the firm. And it was a very successful firm.

Q: Okay, so now when they come back, they reclaim their firm, do they -- if -- what did -- do they eventually leave it, because you're talking about this left-leaning government?

A: Yes, yes, that's what I wanted to tell you.

Q: So tell me.

A: One of -- so when -- when -- when this more left-leaning, more left-wingish. So eventually -- I don't remember if this was nationalized or not, those things escape me. But Hinnek(ph), he was one of the sons, he wanted to get out, but there was ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013 nowhere to go. To get a visa permit here was very difficult, and the two [indecipherable] of his, well, you know, it's very difficult to make a living here.

Thinking about millions which they had over there, they didn't have the millions here. So he had difficulties coming, but I promised him when I went to Australia that I will try to see whether I could get him some documents to get to Australia.

Believe it or not, I did manage to help him, and he came to Australia eventually, with his wife, two children, and he was driving a cab, of all things. Quite successful, but naturally money-wise no comparison to what he had been. But I'm pretty sure they must have had some money here, or something.

Q: Okay. So let's go back to left leaning government in Prague. The owners are not happy, they don't want to stay. What makes you not happy? What specifically?

A: The left-wingish thing. Look, you -- for example, there were elections. You had to go with everybody in that firm, and to sing the name of the leader, his name was Gotwald(ph), and -- and he was the only one who was running. So, having that experience from World War IL, we have seen that the country is deteriorating.

Q: So it was -- between "40 and "48, I was always under the impression that it was still not a communist country.

A: No, but it was very left-wingish, yes.

Q: I see. I see. ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion 104

Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013

A: And I would say not between "40 -- between 1945 when we came back --

Q: Forty-five, yes, that's right.

A: --and 1948, definitely. Only one candidate.

Q: Okay.

A: If you liked it or not, he was the only one, and naturally he was the communist leader. So it was -- it was not hundred percent communistic, but it was getting there.

Q: Okay, so here's the other question. You said that when the Nazis came in, because of their policies, it affected the relationships people had with each other. So that if you were --

A: Yes.

Q: -- had a frou who was nonjew -- a friend who was non-Jewish, it became -- you became estranged even through no desire of your own.

A: There is -- it had nothing true with it. If you -- if you were not one of -- for example, look, your kid couldn't go to school, to a college, if he was from a bourgeois -- they call it bourgeois family.

Q: That's what I wanted to find out. How did that develop now, after the war?

A: Tha-That's how it was. So when you --

Q: Tell us. 105 Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013

A: -- when your child was born from a bourgeois family, that child couldn't go to college.

Q: Well, what was your family considered?

A: Well, I had no children to begin with, but there was no family left, you know, so I didn't have that kind of a problem, but you didn't like it.

Q: Okay.

A: It smelled too much from controlled leftists. So Nazi-- Hitler was too controlled from the right side. This was the same damage on the left side.

Q: [have -- there's one question I forgot to ask you before.

A: Great.

Q: When did you find out what happened to your parents?

A: Well, that's a good question. I think my sister survived, and I think she said she gave me the date when they were, so to speak, transported from -- from one camp to the -- to Auschwitz.

Q: So, from Theresienstadt?

A: Yes.

Q: I see.

A: And when -- once they got to Auschwitz, there was no way that they could have survived, because my father would have been old, also a little bit on the sick side. 106 Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013 Had difficulties with -- not arthritis, I recalling it's something else. Had difficulties walking, I don't remember the name, what they used it for. But they were old people, you know, now my father was born "78. So when he got to Auschwitz, say 1944 - 45, so he was close to 70, where I'm now 90, but that was a different time.

Q: Yeah, he was 64 - 65.

A: And ---and you see here, you are a free person whether you live until 90 or 105.

Q: Yeah.

A: You know?

Q: Yeah.

A: But that was a controlled society. Jewish on top of it, so when they got there, they had no chance.

Q: Okay.

A: They had no chance. So my sister knew the date, and she told me. I forgot the date, of course, but she told me when the day came, she couldn't hold them as a dependent any more, and she was the -- and they were deported.

Q: I see, I see.

A: And once they were deported to Auschwitz, well that was, of course, the end, you know? ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion 107

Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013

Q: So okay, let's go back to after the war. So you didn't -- you didn't like the way you saw things developing back in Prague.

A: Exactly. That was the truth.

Q: Yeah. What did you -- what actions did you start taking? How did things develop

A: Now see, that I couldn't take any --

Q: -- from thought to action?

A:--I---I didn't take any, except that I want to get out with Georgine. And being of that age, military age -- now, for example, when I came back, I had to join the army.

Not that I wanted, that was a compulsory --

Q: Right.

A: --so for, I don't remember how many months, I was -- I was within the army office, but still I was in the armed forces

Q: Right.

A: And then they passed a law that people who were in a concentration camp, were exempt from that service. So I came back to the apartment which I had --

Q: Right.

A: - originally with Georgine. So Georgine came to visit me, how she got there, I don't know, most likely by bus, because we didn't have a car. Have a car was a 108 Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013 luxury in those days. So she must have come by bus to visit me, and naturally there was a question of money, because when you are in the military, you don't make -- what do you make? Nothing. So there were some difficulties. Do I remember what difficulties? Not really. Somehow we made it. You know, maybe some money was left over from the father -- her father. But you know, the -- during that kind of a situation that's happening here to someb -- not want to touch that that base, but when people -- my father-in-law, when -- when they heard that this one was transported to some camp, and this one -- so, as a precaution, they gave -- they had a housekeeper of the house, which was living in the basement, so to speak. So they gave her some money. How much? No idea. He had a factory. Remember, the time goes back now, 60 -- 70 years. So plastic was a novelty. So, in Czechoslovakia, when you had -- when you bought a drink, let's say like a Coke. Was not a Coke, like a Coke. So it has a top that you closed, you know, but it was the old-fashioned thing, which was very difficult and maybe not nice looking. So he did a lot, with a partner, plastic -- you know --

Q: Screw top.

A: -- th-the tops which we today take for granted, you know, and [indecipherable]

Q: Yeah. 109 Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013

A: So it was a novelty, and he was doing extremely well. So he gave his housekeeper X -- no idea how much -- dollar, but you keep it, and then they come back -- you know, you give it back to us. Well, there are lots of people who didn't come back. In that connection, I would like to refer to a story which appeared in "The Wall Street Journal" not more than maybe two weeks ago, and I gave it to Elise to read. Why? Because it turned out that New York state, there are unclaimed insurance policies, monies which were left around in banks. In the bill -- b -- in the billions. And the story was that New York state can get this if it stays unclaimed, because there is a law, if you don't claim X after so many years, it becomes the property of the state. So naturally, New York state, I can imagine if they could get a couple of million, perhaps billion, oh my gosh, you know?

Q: Yeah.

A: So that was the story, and I have no doubt, insurance companies, banks, and I'm telling to you out of experience, Georgine knew that her father had the life insurance policy with X --I forgot the name. So when we came here, we tried to get in touch with those people, we found some document showing that he had this, and he had that, and whatever. So the answer which we got, if I would look for it, I would find it. I'm not going to take the time now --

Q: Yeah, yeah. Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

A: --and I will not take the time then either. But they responded that we have to produce a death certificate. Now, to get a death certificate for somebody who passed away in Auschwitz, is like -- I don't have to tell you. So nothing happened. But that means that that policy was never consummated. So, if he was entitled to those benefits, 10,000 - 100,000, whatever, that was never paid. So really, the unclaimed amounts which are there, must be in the -- well, I'm telling you, the story was -- they mentioned ski -- I think, two billion dollars. Because I'm sure my father-in-law wasn't the only person who did this.

Q: But you're talking -- when you're talking about where they were unclaimed, it was in the -- Czechoslovakia where it was unclaimed?

A: Yeah, yeah, in Czechoslovakia, yeah, yeah.

Q: Yeah, yeah. Okay.

A: Yeah, but there's -- if the money would have been somehow, say inherited by Georgine, or -- or somehow --

Q: Right. That's right.

A: --it would have come --

Q: Come to --

A: -- or maybe to her sister while she was still in the uni --

Q: Yeah. Interview with Frank Hyde m May 4, 2013

A: It was never paid, because we could not prove --

Q: His death.

A: -- his death. And I'm sure there were cases, God knows how many, because lots of people didn't come back, especially older people, you know, the young people might have survived [indecipherable] about the older people had no chance. So we're -- I'm just telling you what happened in "Wall Street Journal," which I enjoy reading, but that's not the issue. So the situation was -- it was varied. It was not the same Czechoslovakia, like it was when it was founded. No.

Q: Wer -- were you still there when Jan Masaryk was killed?

A: Yes, yes, yes.

Q: What can you tell us about that, and what happened to -- how did you experience it, what did you --

A: Well, we experienced only that somehow he jumped to his death. That was the official version. Now, the unofficial version was that they threw him out of the window.

Q: Yeah.

A: Now, what was true? That depends on what side you are on.

Q: What do -- were people frightened to speak to one another? 112 Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013

A: Oh yes. Oh, definitely, because you didn't know what the other person would do to enhance his position, whatever he was doing, he or she, yes. It was not the same Czechoslovakia, no. And that is in a way part of what you're asking me, why didn't -- it was not just this threat from the Soviet Union, we didn't have anything, so what would I have taken, and we just came back. But it was everything, you know, the distrust of each other. The quality of life wasn't the same. By far not the same.

Religion, the religion we didn't practice a religion anyhow, so that didn't make any different. But the life was not the same, no. You talked to a neighbor, you were afraid in case you say something, it might be turned over against you. If you were more on the liberal side, rather than communistic side. If you said you don't like -- I'm just saying --

Q: Yeah.

A: --as an example, if you didn't like this guy, and he was a prominent, say politician, Prague, or whatever. So i-it was not the same country, by any mean. But it was not the same country for two reasons. Unfortunately, the German occupation did it, and the Russian threat continued during it. So that was not that [indecipherable] who were the -- originally the spirit. That was -- was missing, that wasn't there. And specially this aunt of mine, who survived the war in Israel, it was not Israel, it was Palestine. It's the same thing anyway. Interview with Frank Hyde ns May 4, 2013

Q: Yeah.

A: So she didn't like it, and she was alerting us to these things more than we did, because we were thrilled that we are free. We were free. So, for us, we didn't see it.

But she s -- she was, like I say, a different oy -- age, from a different country. She saw it differently, you know? The way she was living, I remember certain things, that she was living in Vienna, she married in Vienna. And she came to Prague with her husband, and sh -- I can't tell you the year. Oh, it must have been before "39, before Hitler came. She was saying that this is a unstoppable wave, that anything what is somehow German, will become Nazi German. And I think she was right.

Why? I told you earlier, because Hitler provided jobs, and even the people who were -- who had nothing to do with it, became pro-Nazi. I like to say Nazi Germany, because I don't blame today's generation for what happened 50 - 70 years ago. Le -- I mean, these people who are today Germans -- I mean, of course they are German, because they were born there, I mean, they questioned their old grandparents. I mean, how could you have not known, or why could you have condoned this, you know? Different from today's world than it was at the time, but when I talk about Germany, I usually say Nazi Germany, or Germany.

Q: Yeah. Interview with Frank Hyde m May 4, 2013

A: Because I'm getting a pension, small pension, couple hundred dollars. Really, it's not even worth talking about it. Depends on the exchange rate. So Georgine got for the month of May, 200 dollars, and I got five -- 200 dollars, another 500 dollars, something, you know.

Q: Yeah.

A: So today, in this world, 700 dollars amounts -- is not going to make me rich or poor. Yes, it helps me to maintain Georgine, which I told you.

Q: Yes, yes.

A: But those article, they had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Those articles, they're like John's age, or even younger.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: Imean, why should they [indecipherable] they, through taxation, pay me X dollars? Well, I'm looking at it, I'm telling you how I feel about it.

Q: Yeah.

A: Do [accept it? I would be crazy not to accept it, but really --

Q: The guilty --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- are not -- the guilty ha -- wer -- got away with it. ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Frank Hyde us May 4, 2013

A: You don't understand me? Sweetheart, I told you I like to say the truth, this is a truth.

Q: Yeah.

A: Laccept thing, well yes, I accept it, because I was working there and all that rubbish did happen. But you -- I'm wondering why this generation stole everything?

Do they feel any moral guilt? Where -- would I feel moral guilt, what my grandfather might have done? I don't know. I'm just asking a civilized question, you know?

Q: Yeah. Yeah. It's one question that is -- it's -- there's so many questions in these events, that -- for which there were no answers, and yet we still look for them.

A: That's what you saying [indecipherable] saying that's how I feel, you know?

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: If they send me the check, yes I take the money, because automatic it's coming to my account, so I take it, you know. But from a human point of view, from my personal point of view, I wonder how I would feel if I would be in that situation. His -- they didn't cause it. It was the grandfather, or the grand-grandfather. And to -- to analyze what reasons that person had 50 years ago -- you only can [indecipherable] to almighty God.

Q: Let's talk a little bit about Georgine, if we can.

A: Sweetheart, Georgine, she's my wife for 70 plus years. Interview with Frank Hyde ne May 4, 2013

Q: Yes.

A: I told you that she was there, right here, where we are.

Q: What I mean is, just give me the outlines of what happened to her, when you were split apart. She was --

A: Sweetheart, she went through Auschwitz.

Q: Yeah.

A: And anybody who went through Auschwitz, and saw that misery, and had a heart, and if sh -- if u-- she was lucky that she didn't have to work, although when they came here, she did. Remember, she had a British passport, so she was working for the British consulate on Rockefeller Center.

Q: Yeah.

A: How long, I can't -- I don't remember, short while, then she got another job. But that's not the issue. So she was lucky that she could have stayed home. She stayed home when she became pregnant. Well, that was another reason why she had all that surgery, because they were saying, if you treat it with nuclear energy, she will become sterile. And as a young woman, you know, you didn't like that. So she had the surgery rather than the --

Q: Right. ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion Interview with Frank Hyde m May 4, 2013

A: -- treatment, and eventually, just like I said, we were working about two years or so, and she became pregnant. We had -- she had a vacation, I had a vacation, and was like summertime, she quit her job. Well, then, you know how it takes, it takes a few months to get to that place. So she was very happy, she was a hundred percent mother. And having seen all these children perish in Auschwitz, she devoted her life to children. Truth is the truth. So she went when John was six, kindergarten, or whatever that system is here. She started to be on the school board. Not as a teacher, she was never a teacher. And through her persistence, integrity, or interest, whatever, she was on the school board for 32 years.

Q: Wow.

A: So here, in this country, they s -- in the local school board here, there's a room dedicated to Georgine's 32 years of being on the school board, giving service to the children. Now, if we would have time, she has literally hundreds of these things, what were -- now we have this.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: So we have all kinds of wooden plaques, testimonials, we had it here hanging.

Well, you know, they changed.

Q: Yeah, yeah. Interview with Frank Hyde ne May 4, 2013

A: I don't blame them. This is [indecipherable]. They had here hanging, honorary doctorate. She has a couple of honorary doctorates. What I'm telling you, like I just told you, I am not a person who will make things bigger than they are --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- this is the truth. Where it is now, I don't know. Elise has a tendency to change things. Which is fine, I'm -- she's a very hardworking person, and I told you, I like all three of them. What happened to it, I don't know, it was always hanging here. So maybe they put it inside, or something, I don't know.

Q: Okay.

A: Was a proclamation of one university, honorary doctorate in, like they called letters, or something? Like writing.

Q: Did you -- did you talk with one another about what you both went through, a lot?

A: Very little.

Q: Very little.

A: No, no, because she has the same like I went. Luckily, we both came back.

Q: But you know, here's another thing that's unusual. You got married, so that you wouldn't be called up for the army. Everybody --

A: At that time we don't be deported --

Q: To -- excuse me -- Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013

A: Yes.

Q: -- to be deported to Theresienstadt.

A: Yes, yes, yes.

Q: Okay. So you didn't get married --

A: Wa -- one little thing. We were kids.

Q: Yes. How old were you?

A: I married when I was 20. She was 16. We had to have permission from our parents.

Q: And they gave the permission?

A: Oh sure.

Q: Okay.

A: Well, because they knew what's coming.

Q: So one could say that you didn't get married for the most -- I would say normal --

A: No.

Q: -- usual of reasons?

A: A hundred percent right.

Q: Okay.

A: That's the truth. 120 Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013

Q: And then when you're together, you're young, but somewhere after Theresienstadt, you're separated. And you go through the kinds of experiences that can shatter a person.

A: Yes.

Q: You both survive, you come back, and then you spend a lifetime together. That's unusual. I mean, so many people -- that is, so many people can come back from such traumatic experiences, and they're changed inside.

A: Well, we -- we changed to a certain extent. She got involved with the schools.

Q: Okay.

A: And I was ma -- much more, say for going to the Metropolitan Opera. So I-- financial were different. So I bought a subscription for two of us. Naturally, we were married --

Q: Right.

A: -- we were vi-- di--we used to go, there was a show here on Broadway, whatever it was, not important. So we had tickets, two tickets to go to the Metropolitan Opera. But now all of a su-- oh John -- Frank, I won't be able to make it because I have to see Commissioner so and so from the education department. So I had two tickets, I went, and I sold one, or gave it away, or whatever Interview with Frank Hyde mt May 4, 2013

I did. So that went on for about three years like that, that I had two tickets, very seldom we used them.

Q: Yeah.

A: Seldom. But we still had the same interest, we had the same background. We knew our parents, her parents, it was the same. She knew my parents, of course. So nothing really has changed, really. And proof is what I'm saying is we are --

Q: Seventy-one years.

A: And then -- and -- and financially I told you what it cost. If you multiply by 50, and multiplied by five, six years, you don't talk about 10 dollars.

Q: No.

A: Do I have any regrets? No. I consider this is my responsibility, no.

Q: What it -- just for the sake of the interview, we're talking about Georgine, who is no longer able to participate in --

A: Very little.

Q: -- normal activities. Who is we -- not well.

A: Well, my -- there was a story in the papers. If you want to read it, we have made copies, that goes back about two, three years. You know what, I tell you something, I have to go to my office, and give you a copy.

Q: Okay. Interview with Frank Hyde m May 4, 2013

A: Our life has changed, my life in particular. Because now, I go to eat dinner at four o'clock. I come home when Bibi comes, she comes usually at six, I come usually home at 5:15 - 5:30, because it's only a mile. So I come home. We either bring them, or they [indecipherable] or whatever, that's not the issue. And then she, when Bibi comes, six o'clock, summertime, wintertime, I go to sleep. And again, I told you, my hours have shifted.

Q: Yeah.

A: I get up at two o'clock, three o'clock.

Q: Yeah.

A: Do I complain? No, I just -- this is fine, this is the life it is, my obligation. She's sick, so either you get [indecipherable] not me [indecipherable] or you do what you have to do. And I feel this is what I have to do. We married, we were kids. My responsibility was the same as it was 50 years ago.

Q: When you --

A: Before you go, I give you the story from the newspaper.

Q: Okay.

A: Free of charge.

Q: Okay.

A: They -- they made copy -- made a bunch of copies. 123 Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013

Q: And the story from the newspaper is about what?

A: Well, is what I'm telling you, that we were separated because of Auschwitz.

Q: Oh, I see, it's about you. The story from the newspaper is about you, okay.

A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, about -- well, it was about both of us, but actually it's more about what I'm doing with -- you know, I was always working.

Q: Yeah.

A: Some of u -- I mean, one of us had to make a living.

Q: Did you feel like you were a different person when you came back from Auschwitz, though?

A: Oh sure -- oh, from Auschwitz, of course. I was a grown-up man, I was a kid when I went in. No, no question about it. You understood what life is, what brutality is. Don't forget, there were instances where some prisoners wanted to escape.

Russian in particular, I have to say the truth. You know, we had to witness when they were literally beaten to death. Why did they ask us to witness this? To discourage other people from doing it. And that's pi-- after all these years, I'm still seeing it once in a while. When I start thing like now, talking about it. Sure. Was awful. So you have grown up, no question about it. You were a child, you were inexpere -- when we came out, we were children. I wanted to buy the house. They were talking about real estate ex -- I had no clue. So this friend -- not friend, she was ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Frank Hyde m May 4, 2013 a client of mine, said well, do you have any money? Remember, 3,000 dollars down payment. Was a different down -- different time.

Q: In the 1950s here.

A: Yeah. So I said, not really. Sh-She said to me -- I will never forget her, well you can't just get a mortgage without having some money in the bank. For me that was, you know, a revelation, what is she talking about? So she loaned me 3,000 dollars, which was 10 percent from what was needed for the down payment. Of course I paid her back, this is not the question. But that's how it was.

Q: Well, one of the things that I find -- something that I can't imagine, because I've had a normal life, rather than this kind of life.

A: Well, we didn't have the normal life. You said the right thing.

Q: You know, is one of the things that --- when somebody goes through something like that, and they see this kind of brutality, can you ever really laugh again? Can you -- when do you start enjoying life again?

A: Well, you know, truthfully, you try to push it away, you know, and you concentrate on what we did together. You know, we went shopping together. She was normal, don't forget, she was a normal person.

Q: Yeah.

A: So -- not that I'm putting her down or something -- 125 Interview with Frank Hyde May 4, 2013

Q: No, no, no, no, no, no

A: --I'm just saying the true, we used to go to Lord & Taylor, I remember. When we bought the house, we -- we bought a car. And you just look out the window there's a tree, stupidly we planted it right next to the house. Well, we went -- I had a Chevy, and we thought to make it more -- more trees. So we bought a tree which was bigger than this thing here. Well, now it's 50 years ago, now it's tremendous, you know. So we were sharing life together. She grew into it, I grew into it, but we grew into it together, not separately. Separately was only the circumstance which -- which made us separate, you know?

Q: Got it.

A: And that was a story in the paper, you know. I couldn't get out of Czechoslovakia because of that military age. Well, I managed to get that British passports, so that was not a pretense of some kind of divorce or separation.

Q: That's right.

A: It was just to survive. We was just so panicky with survival.

Q: Yeah.

A: And -- and the only way to do it was well, you go first, and somehow I managed to get out by myself, because I will take a suitcase and go. But now, if we are two, it's a different thing. Interview with Frank Hyde ms May 4, 2013

Q: Yeah.

A: And that's exactly what happened, so when I f-- got to stay, I told you before, she took the plane and came back. Of course she came back.

Q: Is there --

A: -- was not some kind of a second marriage, or something.

Q: No. Is there -- no. Is there -- is there anything that you'd like to add to what we've talked about today, that you think it's important for --

A: If I would take it back?

Q: No, no, no. Is there something you would like to add?

A: Oh, add. Well, the only experience I would like to tell you about, when I was working for General Motors, which I told you, photography here. When I went to General Motors, no English. So, since I had some experience from the concentration camp Model As.

Q: Yeah.

A: So my sister go to General Motors, they pay good salary, 10 pounds, or whatever it was in those days, and I was having [indecipherable] which is something like this, and then the tube goes in like this. And I was working on brake drums. Now the brake drums, where they come out of the foundry are very rough, which is [indecipherable] brake drums should be inside, because it's supposed to have that -- Interview with Frank Hyde mr May 4, 2013

Q: Right.

A: -- brake pedal and stuff. So naturally, since everybody knows how not handy I am, I am still saying that GM went down financially because of the automobiles wh- which I fixed up. But they are still recalling the cars which I did. Well, of course that's a joke --

Q: Of course.

A: -- because there are gauges, they called the gauges --

Q: Right.

A: -- and it was after every so often you had to check to be sure that it's that way.

Q: Yeah.

A: But Pll leave that story a-apart from what I was doing. Well, then we came here, you know, here was -- you started to work, you went to school, learning English, accounting, expressions, and English to begin with. I told you we thought in Prague, five o'clock tea, we speak English, you know? Was very different --

Q: Have you ca --

A: -- after the war, before the war, you know.

Q: Have you been back?

A: No.

Q: You've never been back? Interview with Frank Hyde ms May 4, 2013

A: We have never been back, no. I was, for business, in Paris couple times. But that was with a friend, she was a friend. Have to be -- no different between Arabs, or no Arabs. If there are terrorists, yes, but we talk about normal people. He was in real estate, then we became business friends, very pleasant person. And I went with him to Paris. [indecipherable] if it was two days, four days, if I don't remember, you know.

Q: So have you been back to Europe?

A: I went back to Paris twice.

Q: Only?

A: But not Prague, or anything like that, no, no.

Q: That's unusual. A lot of people have been back.

A: Well, she was not keen, Georgine, and then she always had something, well you know, I can't make it now. This is coming up with the school. She was always ha -- not that she was hiding behind the school --

Q: That's right.

A: -- but the school pa -- John -- oh, we should certainly go back so I can tell Natalie, his child, my granddaughter, where we come from. Well, that wa -- it never -- never came to it, you know.

Q: Yeah. Interview with Frank Hyde m May 4, 2013

A: So really we have never been back. We traveled here. Not USA, the continent.

Q: Yeah.

A: We were in Guatemala, we were in Peru, the na -- Machu Picchu stuff, and all --all kinds of islands, and everything else, but not back to -- no.

Q: Okay, well --

A: She didn't have so much interest, and if she had no interest, then I --

Q: Right.

A: -- went along, you know. By myself to go, that was absolutely unthinkable, you know?

Q: Well, I think then, thank you for sharing.

A: I thank you for coming.

Q: You're welcome.

A: Whatever time it is, is just -- you know, sometimes you start thinking about all this, and it comes back to you so lived -- vivid --

Q: Vivid.

A: -- you know, you -- I don't have to think about these thing. The -- the only thing what I would like to give you is that story about the newspaper, but that is only the newspaper when we had 70 years wedding anniversary. So that Kathy(ph) --

Q: Yes. Interview with Frank Hyde _ May 4, 2013

A: -- Georgine's friend. And she is the one who is alerting me to the thing that Monday she was stop eating, because she will forget how to eat, you know.

Q: Yeah.

A: But she knew that reporter. Georgine also knew him for quite a while. And they somehow thought it was a great story, you know.

Q: It is a great story.

A: Well, people who were living all kinds of places, and celebrate 70 years of marriage. Not too many people are married 70 years.

Q: Not too many, no.

A: So this is -- will be seven -- we married "41, so it will be 72.

Q: Okay.

A: If we reach that. You know, you never know.

Q: Well, thank you. Thank you again.

A: My pleasure. It was wonderful that you are here.

Q: Thank you.

A: What will happen now? It will be somehow in the Holocaust Museum?

Q: Yes, yes, it will be -- I'm going to first say, this concludes our interview with Mr.

Frank Hyde on May 4", 2013, and okay --

A: Well, it's a story [break] -- 9/11, when we had the -- Interview with Frank Hyde mt May 4, 2013

Q: Okay.

A: -- airplane bombing, or whatever you want to call it. Of course I know where I was. I was with a client in -- in his house, and I don't know why he had the television on at that day, that I don't remember. But we had it on for some reason or another, and then I saw it. Well, I saw that the pilot made a mistake, of course. Why would I think that it's a terrorist attack? And the same things with Auschwitz. Why would anybody think that a sophisticate nation like the Germans would come up with something like this because of religion, or where you come from? Unheard of.

And the same is with that 9/11, where did you think that that would be planned?

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: Now when you see it again, you know, the -- you know what happened. And if something in the future would come up with some crazy person like Hitler was, maybe -- maybe the world will not make the same mistake. There was a wonderful story, "Wall Street Journal" -- I'm not trying to sell the "Wall Street Journal," but that's what I'm reading, so that's what I'm talking about. They were talking about the preemptive stri-strike. If someone like this happened to be somewhere, they were talking about Iran, that you shouldn't wait until it's too late. And whoever wrote it was a historian, or whatever it was. Was a couple days ago, I gave it to Elise to read. Interview with Frank Hyde " May 4, 2013 And he said if --if the allied forces would have done something, that Hitler marched into Zar(ph), and the other place, I [indecipherable]

Q: Ruhrgebeit. It was the Ruhrgebeit. Ruhrgebeit, the manufacturing and the heavy industry, and the military.

A: And the story said, maybe five million people would not have been killed. Well, you know, she would have something what you should have done. God knows. But maybe you not have the will of the way into Auschwitz, you know? God knows. I -- I don't know. I lived through it, it was there. I-- I told you I -- the times, from time to time, when I -- when I was [indecipherable] and all that stuff, you know? God knows. But people make the same mistakes, ye -- they don't learn from history, you know.

Q: Okay, thank you.

A: So if you can kindly take my stuff out of me. Do I still have it? Yeah, I do.

Q: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Thank you.

A: [""m very glad that you came.

Q: Thank you. I'm glad that you --

A: What -- what I -- End of File Two Conclusion of Interview