Document

LORE J. SCHORE October 17, 2010

Q: This is the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Lore Schore.

A: No.

Q: Could you pronounce

A: Lore Schore. And when I was a child in Berlin, it was Lubben Lichtenstein. Okay.

Q: Thank you. So with Lore Schore

A: Lore Schore.

Q: Lore. Sorry. I'm sorry. Lore Schore, conducted by Agnieszka McClure, on October 17th, 2010, at the Kinderstransport Association Conference, in Arlington, Virginia. I'm sorry again about mispronouncing your name.

A: That's why I tell people. Nobody knows how. I tell them. All right.

Q: Very good.

A: By the way, in case you want to know, Schore is a Hebrew word. It means ox.

Q: It means ox, okay.

A: That's my husband's name, of course.

Q: And your maiden name was Lichtenstein?

A: Lichtenstein, in German, yes.

Q: Where in Germany are you from?

A: Berlin.

Q: From Berlin. Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood in Berlin? How much you remember

A: [remember almost everything from then and then later on it gets vague.

Q: The microphone was clipped to your jacket.

A: Where do you want me to put it?

Q: Maybe on your shirt, if you don't mind, so you can clip it to your shirt. All those technical things. Sorry.

A: Technical problems.

Q: Let me do that. I will put it on your collar. That is probably going to be the best place because it's out of the way. So you mentioned that you were raised in Berlin?

A: Ina nice, comfortable middleclass family. My I have no sisters or brothers. I'm an only child. I don't even have a first cousin. And to jump ahead, I now have eight greatgrandchildren, which is more than most people can say, I think. And I may have more because I still have one grandchild who is not attached yet.

Q: I see.

A: Okay. I grew up in this comfortable home with a kinderfraulein.

Q: That means the nurse?

A: Nanny. They were not always nice, those kinderfraulein, but we were always comfortable. And I went to kindergarten and to elementary school there, and 1 my father died when I was three. So my grandfather was a male presence in my family, and I adored him, and he was a lovely man, and my mother was a very young widow and had her own problems. And I went on to a Jewish school after leaving elementary school because they were there. And by that time, we moved to the area called Grunewald on the Roseneck, which is quite a smart area in Berlin. And I stayed there. And then, at the very end, by that time I was over 14, they stuck me in an art school because I was extremely talented, they tell me, but I never got anywhere with that. I did some posters later on. Anyhow, by the time the socalled Kristallnacht, which wasn't called that in Berlin, you understand. That was put on to that episode by the American press, that expression.

Q: I see.

A: And, anyhow, I remember where we lived, there was one Jewish jeweller on the corner at the Rosenach, and they had forgotten it was supposed to be a spontaneous uprising.

Q: Right.

A: Except they forgot that one store. They came the next day and bashed it up.

Q: I see.

A: So that was that. And I was comfortable. We took summer holidays in interesting places. The Baltic. And dances where my grandfather's family came from. We went to Sarkot and stayed and went swimming. It was a peaceful, pleasant time.

And then, of course, again, after this, you know what happened, my mother rushed about getting me onto a Kindertransport, and she succeeded.

Q: How old were you when that happened?

A: 15. I was one of the older children. Right now, I am one of the oldest ladies here, I think, by far.

Q: Well, and it doesn't show at all.

A: Good for you. Thank you. But 1am. And when we went swimming last summer, my son and I, in the Atlantic, he kept on telling me, Don't swim out so far. Remember, you're 36 86andahalf, which he rubbed it in a little bit.

Q: That's a good problem to have, not to swim out to

A: I'm here, and I'm fairly well. And I had a little lumpectomy, which ladies get, but you know that. Okay. In the meantime, they sent me off in Berlin in May of "39.

Q: So, just to come back a little bit more to your background in Berlin. So, you come from a middleclass, fairly welloff family. You attended most of your schools in Berlin, then, right?

A: Yes.

Q: And you are the only child. And you are very in touch with your grandfather?

A: Yes.

Q: And not so much

A: My mother was a little bit difficult, but this is really too long. You don't want to go into all that. But anyhow, she took me to the station where we were leaving, and I was very happy talking to a school fellow school girl that had gone to the same classes I did.

We were talking, and my mother all of a sudden started yelling that I had to go and sit next to her because she finally got emotionally involved in this departure. Okay. We got on the train. On the next station, my aunt, whom I loved very much too, was there to wave goodbye to me. She was eventually she lived in France, and the French police addressed arrested her and sent her to Auschwitz where she was murdered --

Q: I see.

A: inthe "40s. Okay. Then I was got to London. First, we went by boat to from where did we leave from? To Harwich from Hook Von Holland, I think, and then to Harwich, and then by train to London, Euston Station, I think.

Q: And were you you seemed to be happy to be on the train, or am I

A: I was not miserable.

Q: Not miserable.

A: And there was lots of young people, and we sang songs on the trip.

Q: And you weren't did you

A: I was not afraid. I was not petrified. I had they said people should come with woolsack. Everybody else had suitcases. I had a woolsack because my mother followed the rules. Okay. In London I was picked up by a lady who ran a girl school in East Molesey in Surrey.

Q: Oh, the county, right?

A: Yes. And so she picked me up. And I had English, I had English for a couple of years and I had French more, but that didn't do me any good there. And then she took me to this East Molesey girl school. It was called Mildred's Lodge. And one of the ladies here was there as well, and I remembered her. She didn't remember me, but that can happen.

So we were there, I would say, for quite six months, I would think, something like that, and I was sent to an art school in somewhere near there. I can't remember the name now of the town.

Q: So they apparently thought you were talented as well?

A: I was talented, but then, you know, if you don't make use of it, it fades. Anyhow, they were there was the school had a dance or something, and one of the boys afterwards called me, and that was a great scandal. And the lady who had looked from Germany who had looked after us not looked after us, but promoted the whole thing, she said stay away from men. They only want one thing. You know, the whole routine. Before your time, thank God. Anyhow, I think I was after spending holiday in Devonshire, or was it I don't remember now. Mrs. Atkinson, who was a marvelous Quaker lady, who walked around with what is that called?

Q: I don't know.

A: In German, it's schnecke.

Q: Oh, like little buns? She had little

A: Snails. She wore silver buckles on her shoe, and she had a lovely house in the country and many sons, and they had a badger in a garage or in a barn. It was fairly interesting, and I liked it there. So we had a holiday there. Then after that, I think they didn't want me in that school anymore.

Q: Because of the dance?

A: Because of that boy's phone call. Big deal. But it was a different time, and those people were different people.

Q: Right.

A: Okay. Then they stuck me somewhere in Hampshire with an old lady and her daughter. They had seven cats. And they didn't order much milk. It was a tower that had been built by Pitt, I think, against Napoleon, the expected invasion.

Q: Mmhmm.

A: And it was three stories, one on top of the other. It wasn't very wonderful. There was no indoor plumbing. But it was still summer, so it was all right. After awhile, that didn't seem to be a solution. And they stuck me with a vicar in a town called Lockerley.

Q: Why did they move you to the vicar?

A: Who knows. I wasn't always consulted.

Q: I see. It seemed that you didn't really bond with those people that you stayed with, right?

A: Never, no. And the people that the lady there, the vicaress, if there is such a word, there isn't, but the lady, she had four daughters, and her husband was not allowed to smoke in the house, which was good. He smoked a pipe. His sermons were very poor. I had enough English by then, but I went to the sermons. I went to church when they had services because it was the only entertainment then. After that, somehow was it a joint committee who used to transfer people? You don't know about that.

Q: Yeah, that is somewhat obscure, but I think that's

A: It's in London. And they moved me on to North Hampton where I got stuck for awhile longer, and there was a curate who took me in. Curate is an assistant vicar.

Q: I see.

A: And she was a very glamorous lady, and he was a very sweet man. Their name was Evans. I remember that. And so I stayed with them, again being sent to art school. I don't think it really knocked in, you know, kicked in at all.

Q: It didn't?

A: No, I don't think so. But anyhow, it was all right. It was tiresome.

Among the other interesting things, this may interest you, your group, there was a rabbi.

And because in in North Hampton. And he wore a clerical collar. I don't know if anybody else ever told you that, but it is a very unusual thing for a rabbi to do, but he said the other clergyman, they wore a clerical collar, so he did too. This was an edification on his part.

Q: I see. That is actually pretty unusual.

A: Mighty unusual.

Q: Right.

A: So okay. So I spent some time there. And then my mother kept running to London to the America she was by that time she had come to England.

Q: How did she manage to do that?

A: Domestic VISA.

Q: So she was probably one of the early people who managed to get on

A: She came very late, just before the war started.

Q: Oh, really?

A: Yeah.

Q: And you came on the first was it one of the first transports? Was it still in winter?

A: Oh, no. In May. The first one started in, I think, November or December.

Q: I think it was somewhere around that time.

A: Yeah. So, anyway, my mother kept going to London to the American Embassy. And somehow I don't know how that all worked out, but they found out that when I was born, my father was an American citizen. He had lived in America for 25 or so years. He went back to Germany to visit relatives after World War I, met my mother in doesn't matter where Quebec.

Q: Was he also

A: And they got married.

Q: Was he also Jewish or not?

A: Oh, yes, yes.

Q: He was?

A: Yes. And, again, my mother was cute, and he was a nice man, and I think she wanted to be on the only girl on the block to be married to an American. I'm pretty sure that was anyhow, they were married. I was born 10 months later. And, again, my father died when I was three, which was not a really terrible, you know. Anyhow, so after that now we're jumping back. I'm sorry. I'm not going chronologically.

Q: That's okay. But at least we are coming back.

A: In the meantime, the American Embassy found out. There was a new law on the books, the Nationality Act of 1940, and that because when I was born, my father was an American citizen, I could be an American citizen.

Q: Well, that was a good thing at the time.

A: It was very interesting. It was I was given a passport, but only if I left England. Soa cousin and uncle took me to the railroad station. I went to Wales. I took a ferry from Wales to Dublin.

Q: Mmhmm.

A: I went by train from Dublin to Galway.

Q: And where is that?

A: In Ireland.

Q: In Ireland, mmhmm.

A: Far western Ireland. And there was a ship leaving for the U.S. and I can't remember the name. It may have been Washington or I don't remember. And they were full of Americans who were going to America, but they were only just Americans. Many were born there, and then the parents moved back to Europe or whatever. And some of them were Americans who were on summer holiday. Now, the war had started. They were insane. And the ship I went on to finally was stopped by a German submarine already off the coast of Spain or Portugal, I think. So, anyhow, we got there. They had covered up the swimming pool with planks and put cots on there for all these people to go back to America.

Q: So your mother was also on the ship with you?

A: My mother stayed in England. And I had great fun on the boat after I stopped being seasick. And there were many young people on it. And then, when I got to New York, in those days, they didn't let young women off ships because they were afraid of white slavery.

Q: Oh, yes, mmhmm.

A: Except nobody paid any attention to me, and there I was standing on the pier in New York and nobody was there to meet me.

Q: And who was there supposed to be?

A: My uncle had been sent he had just come from France, and he was sent a telegram, but which obviously didn't get there. It was war time

Q: Right.

A: in England. That was another thing that was interesting. From England, I was with my gas

Q: With your?

A: gas mask. And I had to hand it in. And then in Ireland, everything was lit up, which made an enormous change after the blackouts of London.

Q: Right.

A: Or North Hampton or wherever. Anyhow, nobody was there. And I was 16, and it was quite worrisome, you know.

Q: I could only imagine.

A: Yes. And then, being new to New York who knows that there are five boroughs and five telephone books, so I tried to find my uncle and of course he didn't have a phone, I will tell you why later, and I did find an aunt, cousin of my father's, who had started a boarding house. And she was not surprised to hear from me, and she said, "Well, take a trolley car, blah, blah, blah." I was much too sophisticated. I put my luggage in storage, and I took a taxi.

Q: And you obviously had money, then, with you?

A: Enough money for that. And so she I went to her house, I found it. And then she took me by trolley to my uncle's rooms. He was also rooming in some other boarding house. I mean, these people had just gotten here, you know.

Q: Right.

A: And until the day he died, he denied, but he looked at me I was 16 by that time and curvy. When he'd last seen me, I was 12 and a skinny little thing, and he clicked his heels, and he introduced himself, Schneidermul (ph), that was his name. He didn't recognize me for obvious reasons. And then his wife came home, and she dealt with the situation. They stuck me somewhere in a room. And then I was handed on to one of these something of Jewish Council of Jewish Women. They took a little care of me. I got put into you know, being a nanny or babysitter, whatever it was at that time. I don't remember. It was the summer. It gets very hot in New York in the summer. It was a big surprise Washington was worse, I think. And so they stuck me somewhere. It was all right. And then things get a little vague now. I don't remember everything. But I spent time with these people and then somehow the they sent me to art school again no, wait a minute. I went to high school then for a little bit. For a yearandahalf or so, I went to high school.

Q: Through the association, right?

A: They pushed me into it. But the thing is, I was never a very great student as a child, but in New York, I was fabulous. I was a very good student.

Q: Well, very good.

A: [had an education behind me, but that was it. And after that, I think I got, again, as my mother used to say, from Pontius to Pilate, they sent me around. And I got funny things. I think I started working somewhere. At Revlon, not for very long. Eventually I found a job at a printing outfit, and there I was a stripper. Haha. It's not a joke there. It was something you do. Layouts, it was called stripping. So I use that because it's really amusing.

Q: So I assumed that. So what were you exactly stripping? Boxes out of lids or what?

A: No. Stripping is to put it was called photo offset printing, lithography. And they did something called Goldenrod, and the film on which the stuff was printed was cut out and that was called stripping.

Q: Stripping.

A: And then they put it on a press. Not a letter press, on a circular thing. And it was run on the letter press after that. And my husbandtobe was working there.

Q: So your husband number three, you said?

A: No, not yet.

Q: Oh, to be, you said. Okay. I'm sorry. I misheard you.

A: My husbandtobe, and he was a very nice fellow, and eventually we got married. By that time, my mother had come from England. And I think that's about it. We were married. We lived in New York. We got another apartment, which was

Q: There are some gnats here.

A: Flies, whatever, yeah. We got another apartment. I had two children. My son's name is Robin, and he is now 65, going on 66.

Q: Oh, my goodness.

A: And my daughter is Wendy, and she's also married. She married a boy next door, who is Irish and RC. Do you know what that means?

Q: No, I do not.

A: Roman Catholic.

Q: Roman Catholic, okay.

A: We all lived in Manhattan, and then my son went into the Army during the Vietnam War. But he was not shipped for Vietnam, fortunately. He was leading two trains back and forth with prisoners and stuff like that, I think. I don't remember now. And both children are married. My daughter is two years younger than my son, and they both had nice weddings.

Q: That's good.

A: My soninlaw's my son's fatherinlaw was a Viennese, which means nothing because we speak different languages.

Q: Almost.

A: Truly. I won't go into details. But he now is round the bend and is in assisted living, and he's still around, though. He's over 90 by now, 92, but he's still there. Anyhow, they had two girls eventually, and my daughter had two boys and a girl. And, again, now I have eight greatgrandchildren.

Q: Yeah, that's quite

A: Which is my claim to fame. And they're all wonderful and adorable and cute. And they're all little girls except one little boy, which is also surprising. And I think that's about the end of the story. I'm here. I'm coping. I moved from New York to New Jersey six years ago because my children got tired of taking the Cross Bronx Expressway or the the what is the other bridge? The Verrazano Bridge. And now from the Christmas in Berlin, I now have Christmas in New Jersey and I had it in New York, and everybody comes. The new house is somewhat small, so we don't even have room for all the presents, and we have to stretch the walls.

Q: Well, that's a good problem to have, though, not enough room for all the presents.

A: A lot of people by Christmas, I have, like, 1820 people, which is a lot for this little condo that I live in. But I live on a patio, there is a patio outside, and there is a golf course. I left out of my life later, very important part. When the children went to school, my husband gave me a present of a pair of really cruddy Japanese binoculars, individual focus, really terrible, and we were going with friends on a Mother's Day, "36 or so.

Q: Mmhmm.

A: "56, in "56.

Q: "56.

A: And we went ona picnic. And I used the binoculars.. I took my children's little Golden Guide. You may not know those, but they were lovely little books. And the first

two birds I saw were Rosebreasted Grosbeak and a Magnolia Warbler, and I was seduced. I mean, I couldn't ever figure on anything better than to go out and look at birds.

Q: Really?

A: So that has been my passion. I've traveled all over the world now.

Q: Watching birds?

A: Watching birds. But I also do flowers and other I'm a naturalist now, you know, in quotation marks. Not by training because I my education is painfully neglected, but I can read and write, and I can look at birds, and I can look things up.

And the trips that I've taken, I mean, even traveled together, my husband and I when he was still well, and then he had four primary cancers, and the last years were impossible.

He was very, very ill.

Q: I'm sorry.

A: Yes. And it went on. And after he died, I started, you know first I went to Kenya, and then I went to South Africa, and I went all over South America and the West Indies, and I went to Madagascar and to India and to Borneo, Malaysia. I was in Finland, then I was in Spain and in Egypt.

Q: And all watching birds, right?

A: Almost always, yeah. It was very exciting. Now I'm getting a little old for that kind of crap excuse me, excuse me. AndI whatever I do, there are a little far fewer birds, but it's still a passion for me. And ifI I have a feeder three feeders outside four feeders.

And I watch whatever comes in the yard socalled yard. And I garden a little now. In other words, my life is okay. It isn't stimulating where I am. It's bland. It's a senior retirement community.

Q: Well, not everyone's life is extremely stimulating. I would say the majority has a normal have a normal life, right?

A: I don't know. Other people play bridge, tennis, golf. None of the above. I don't do any of those things. IfI don't go birding, I read.

Q: But you swim also. You mention that you swim.

A: I swim what?

Q: You mention that you swim.

A: Did I mention it?

Q: Yeah, you mentioned you told me that your son told you not to swim too far away.

A: That's right. But where I live now, it's too far to go to the beach. I used to go to Jones Beach or Petre Island, Gratiot, and now that is too far for me, and I go swimming in the pool. But I still drive and not at night. I've decided to stop driving in the dark. It's not such fun.

Q: That's harder. It's not as the visibility isn't as good, right, at night?

A: It's a little bit dangerous, I think, for other people too.

Q: I will think about it.

A: You're not there yet. Wait until you're 86andahalf. Okay.

Q: Could you I wanted to ask you, so it seems that you really was unless I'm reading wrong what you're saying, but you didn't seem to be very concerned going to England

A: No.

Q: taking the trip to England?

A: I cried a lot when I first came there, a lot.

Q: Because it was different?

A: Yes. Who knew from cornflakes, who knew of porridge. You know, all these things, it was strange. The coffee was awful. Of course I didn't drink coffee until a little bit later and --

Q: Were you worried about what was happening in Europe at home possibly to your family?

A: Of course. But we didn't know about the horrors, you know. They didn't publish it.

Q: That's yeah.

A: People didn't know.

Q: So you didn't learn about it until

A: We didn't learn even in America when I got there a year later, they didn't know.

Q: And you got to America in "40, 1940, or was it "41?

A: That I left? "40.

Q: "40, mmhmm.

A: England, yeah. People didn't it wasn't published. And they people came out from Europe and said this is going on and nobody listened. They couldn't believe it because it is unbelievable.

Q: Yeah, that's true.

A: I went to Yad Vashem, and my husband who came from Eastern Europe, when he was born, it was Russia. By the time they left after World War I, it was Poland. And he was a very sweet man and my children adored him. After awhile when people get sicker, they don't get nicer.

Q: That's true. What was he called? What was his name?

A: Ben Schore.

Q: Ben Schore?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you you were already a little bit older in England, older than majority of children.

Did you try did you try to help your mother arrive to England? Try to work some paperwork

A: I wasn't consulted. I don't know. I was told she was coming and that's before the war started. So she really got out in the nick of time. And when she came to America, I picked her up at some kind of gathering point.

Q: Do you know how she managed to get to America?

A: The [have no idea it's too I don't remember now. But eventually she remarried.

And I told you already that?

Q: No, you didn't say that.

A: [have two stepbrothers late in that life. By then, I had children so it wasn't so entertaining anymore. And they her husband and she bought a very small house in Florida, and she was very happy there. Loved the gardening. And it was very nice. Then we went down every Easter to visit and later on. We went down because she was sick.

She had a heart condition, so I had to keep flying down and got another caretaker for her, and she was never comfortable or happy, and she didn't live very long. She didn't live to see her first grandchild greatgrandchild. Sorry.

Q: That's unfortunate. Did you get to be any closer with her after she arrived to the States?

A: Yes.

Q: Yes?

A: Yes, yes.

Q: Were you

A: Again, she was fonder of my husband than she was of me. It kept it happens.

Q: Did you correspond with her when you were in England? Did you correspond? Write letters?

A: Oh, I even went to Cambridge to visit with her. She's I didn't mention this, but anyhow, she was the world's worst cook, but she became a cook in England. Somebody some very welloff people, and she cooked from the cookbook. She could do that. And the lady came from somewhere in Germany also, and she said we saved onethirtieth of our fortune.

Q: Why is that?

A: Well, some people are still very welloff had a lovely house in Cambridge.

Q: That's good.

A: So that's interesting too. We stayed in touch. When I came to America, I didn't write nearly as often as I should have. It wasn't a happy time. Do you understand? I dealt with it, but it wasn't a happy time.

Q: Well, I can only try to imagine. You probably were all left to yourself, and you had to start your new life in America, right?

A: Yeah.

Q: And with all the I mean, it was such abrupt experiences from moving from Europe and, you know, leaving war behind. You mentioned that one person from your family was sent to a concentration camp, right?

A: That was Tante Frieda, my mother's sister. She was in France and the French police took her. Really awful, really awful.

Q: Yeah.

A: But my uncle and his wife he was in one of the French camps in near Paris, but

Q: Did they survive?

A: They got out. He was the one who was supposed to meet me in New York, but he didn't.

Q: Oh, that's the one, that's the only one.

A: The other, they were family went to Stedishav (ph). One survived, and the others, I guess, were starved to death is my thinking. And this other uncle who took me to the railroad station, they came from Dunwich. So he and his family all survived. One of the cousins went through the war with her mother, and she got cancer. And I think, according to a story, she was raped by the Russians when they came in. So that's but you hear this you know, these stories did happen.

Q: Right, they did.

A: And she had a child apparently that was lost during that time, which is really worse than what happened to me, much.

Q: Right.

A: And there were four cousins, and we were all friends, and we went to for summer holidays, and they lived in Dunwich, and two of them are still alive.

Q: Do you keep in touch with them?

A: I that's another story. I don't know if you've got time for those stories?

Q: [have lots of time as long as you have a little bit of time.

A: [have to eat lunch soon. I went to India, and I decided I had to go by way of London, and I was going to stop and visit with this cousin, and he picked me up at the airport and took me to a motel, and we visited. And the next day they gave me a very big treat. They took me to the British Museum, which I loved. This is fine. But while we're having a small snack, my bag was gone with everything, everything, everything you can imagine in it, mainly the passport and the VISA for in India, and it was really quite awful.

And so we went from there to the American Embassy, Grosvenor Square, where they wouldn't let me in because I didn't have identification. Well, if I had identification, I wouldn't have to be there. So anyhow, finally somebody came out and let me in, and they started the process of giving me a temporary passport, and I had to go and get a picture taken, all that. It was a major mess. And then the next day I thought I would not be able to get into India because of British the Indian High Commission is closed, but it was open on Saturday. So I went there, another cousin took me, her sister, and I waited because he had to go and get money. For some reason or other, the banks were closed or something. I don't know. It could happen. And anyhow, I waited and waited and waited, and they got very tired of having me sit there, and I really wanted to get out of there. So eventually I got the VISA into my new passport. And then, the next day I was going to India and the plane was supposed to leave at 8:00 9:00 in the morning, but it didn't leave until 6:30 in the afternoon, so I sat at the airport for many hours, and my cousin brought some money so I could buy a lipstick and a comb. You know, this is basics.

Q: It is.

A: Yeah. Anyhow, I didn't have glasses. I didn't have hearing aids. I didn't have my address book. I didn't have my house keys for when I came back.

Q: Oh, my.

A: This was it's nothing to do with the Holocaust. It's just a major catastrophe that affected me deeply. Then I went to India and the group leaders had money so they advanced me money, then at the end I sent them a check. That can be done. And I sent my cousin money, but he had a special arrangement and didn't want to lose any money on the deal. Anyhow, it all worked out. India was interesting. Very cold. We were there in January up near the Himalayas. Which has nothing to do with what you're interviewing me with.

Q: So I was asking about your cousins, but I guess you do keep in touch with your cousins, right?

A: This story has something to do with this. I get this Kinderlink. This is a newspaper that's sent out by, you know, this group.

Q: That organization, mmhmm.

A: And I came across a note from a man, the Reverend somethingsomething. And he was looking for somebody named who used to be Getruhm (ph) and then his name may have been something else and they changed it, but anyhow I knew that is my cousin in London. And I sent him an email, and he got back in touch with this fellow. Now, from when he was a child, he was Gebcarl (ph). And in the meantime, he changed his name to Charlie, and his last name from RUHM, which was my grandmother's maiden name.

Yes, the family name. They're married, by the way. And they got in touch, and he was enormously pleased.

Q: Good.

A: It's all the Kinderlink did it. I never had anybody that I had anything to do with before. That was a first major deed that I could do through that. So he and I are now we corresponded off and on. We send each other Christmas cards. Haha, we do send Christmas cards.

Q: But you do practice Jewish religion, right?

A: No.

Q: You don't. Did you come from a religious house?

A: No.

Q: No? In your home, your mom?

A: Christmas trees.

Q: Oh, so you were would you call yourself assimilated pretty much? That you

A: Absolutely. My greatgrandparents had Christmas trees. This goes back long ago.

And then we were faced with being Jewish when this all started.

Q: The war started, I see. So, essentially, you were really mixed in the German society, right, before

A: Until they started getting rude or, you know, things started happening.

Q: Right. Until the nationalism started to rise, right?

A: Yeah.

Q: I have one more question if you wouldn't mind answering it. It's probably, I don't know, maybe a little bit more personal than the other questions. I wanted to ask if you think that do you think that being on the Kinderstransport had I mean, I've heard different stories so far. Did it have maybe any negative or positive impact on who you are right now or how your life turned?

A: It doesn't affect it affected me. I can't say if it's either positive or negative. It just happened and you deal with it. Some people don't, you know. A little noise, okay.

Q: Just a little bit.

A: It wasn't again, when I first got to England, I cried a lot.

Q: Were the people in England nice to you?

A: Some were. Some were not.

Q: The families that you stayed with?

A: I never stayed with the two except a few. Mostly they were quite all right.

Q: Did they try to make it really easy on you? Did they put any effort?

A: I don't think they paid that much attention. People can be very detached.

Q: So they were just accommodating you, essentially? Is that what you would call it?

A: Well, I don't know why they took me in, but they did. I think there must have been the churches probably passed around Church of England probably passed around requests, you know, who would take a child, and I was there. I was taken.

Q: I see, yeah. Did you make any friends during your stay in England?

A: Yes.

Q: With other Kinderstransport children?

A: Sometimes.

Q: Or with British children?

A: Very few. But they were, you know there were other Germanspeaking children, let's put it that way.

Q: There were, really?

A: In North Hampton particularly.

Q: Like immigrants, German immigrants?

A: There were other children from other countries from being on kindertransports too.

Q: Oh, from the kindertransports.

A: Not all of them.

Q: Mmhmm. Do you

A: I don't know how the rabbi with the clerical collar, how he got there. His name was Arabah (ph).

Q: Are you maybe keeping in touch still with some of those friends that you made?

A: No.

Q: No. How about that boy that called you after the dance?

A: Oh, I never saw him again either because he was very sweet. He was also an art student and this I guess they shipped me out of town.

Q: I see.

A: But it's you know, it was an other a different time. Attitudes were very different.

Q: Right, yes, very conservative. I mean, much more. And the trip from Ireland to the United States, you said that mainly those were new American citizens, right? People who just discovered or

A: Just just Americans barely, you know.

Q: Right. So how did that trip look like? What did it look like? Can you describe it a little bit?

A: It was a big one.

Q: What happened every day? Where did you

A: It was a cruise ship when it wasn't during the war.

Q: Did you stay in one of the better cabins?

A: I was staying in one of those cots on the swimming pool.

Q: Oh, that's where you were sleeping.

A: So did the other girls.

Q: And what did you I mean, what was the food like? What did you eat?

A: The food was fine except for in the beginning I was seasick.

Q: And how about I mean, so many people. Was it overcrowded? Obviously it was overcrowded, the ship, right?

A: It didn't seem particularly terrible. I mean, that was the least of our problems, you know.

Q: Right. Did you did you have any shower facilities on the ship?

A: I don't remember. I have no idea what how that worked at that time. For all I know, I didn't take a shower in six, seven days. It's possible. I don't remember.

Q: So the trip took six, seven days only?

A: Six.

Q: Six. Did you make any friends on the ship?

A: Many, yes. But then afterwards, they were gone again, you know.

Q: I see. So nothing no lasting friendships from the ship or England?

A: Well, except for this lady who is here as well who was in the same school as I was.

Q: You mentioned her. In the same art school, right? Was she in the art school with you?

A: In the same girls school.

Q: Can you refresh my memory? Was it the same girls school in England?

A: In England, yeah.

Q: In England, mmhmm. And what is her name?

A: Ellen Gerber now.

Q: Ellen Gerber?

A: Her name then was Machovich or something like that. She's a lovely woman.

Younger than I, everybody is. And we stayed after she found me at one of these Kinder reunions. I went with my husband to the Catskills, and we didn't meet there, but she read the roster.

Q: And she recognized your name?

A: No. And she recognized that we were at the same school.

Q: I see.

A: She didn't remember me, but when she called me, I knew who she was.

Q: Did you I wonder in being one of the older children, did you try to take care of some of the younger girls?

A: There were no youngers. We were all sort of teenagers in the compartment I was in. I was in a compartment leaving Berlin.

Q: I see.

A: And then the ship going to from Brooklyn Harlem to Harwich was again, was a little bit crowded but the crossings on the channel always were.

Q: Right. And do you remember crossing the English Channel? I mean, was that remarkable?

A: I was sleeping. It was during the night.

Q: You were lucky. Several people say that they were getting seasick.

A: I got seasick on other occasions. As a child, I went to Sweden, and I was so seasick.

It was also an interesting holiday except when I came back to Berlin, my grandfather had died, and that was really major trauma.

Q: So he died before the war started?

A: Yes.

Q: Before you went on the Kinderstransport?

A: That was in well, it had to be in "34.

Q: Oh, so quite a bit before. Do you remember any of the escalating atmosphere in Berlin, how things were changing?

A: Well, you can read the Stiirmer while you were waiting for the bus or the trolley or whatever because they had these horrible articles and pictures. I was standing there waiting so I read them.

Q: So you were let's say, you were probably between 12 around 12, right, when you started reading these? You were born

A: Yeah, I must have been maybe yeah.

Q: What year were you born?

A: "24,

Q: 1924.

A: Yeah. I don't think they things were so overt until "35 or so. I mean, they were there, you know.

Q: Right.

A: And the flags were hanging, and we knew things were not wonderful.

Q: Did your parents manage to

A: My mother.

Q: Your mother, right. Did your mother manage to, I guess, secure some of your savings I don't know possessions, or did that all get lost?

A: Actually, it all got lost. Except we were allowed you know that from other people.

We were allowed one two sets of silverware per person. So my mother took two, and I took two, and the mitchen (ph).

Q: The nanny, right?

A: The only Jewish maid in Berlin, she brought two over two too, and I gave them to my granddaughter when she had a shower when she got married. She may never use them.

They're very the end of the blades should be replaced, and the anyhow, with other things, we did not later on my mother brought some more books, and I still have a lot of the books in German that I had read and

Q: And I'm sure you probably still speak very good German, right?

A: I can read German. I can speak German better. Last did I tell you that yet? Last March I was in Eilat.

Q: No, I don't believe so.

A: And on a birding trip, and there was a very nice young man who led a German group.

And when I told him he spoke fluent English. And when I told him that I was born in Berlin, Landhaus Striesen. He said he lives two blocks from there. Anyhow, there were many German people there, French and English. Lots of English, Russians, Poles, they were all holidaying in on the Red Sea, and they left. And there was this guy's twin sister and there was many and I decided I never speak German anymore for obvious reasons, there's nobody to speak German with or to. So with them I started singing old little Whoop De Doo songs and stuff like that, and I was surprised that I remembered. But in 19 I forget, before the wall came down, must have been "88, we went to Germany because Berlin invited us. I wasn't going to go, but then my husband hadn't been there so it was an invitation, so we went. And surprising thing was the words that came back to me that I hadn't used in years

Q: A long time.

A: and years, you know. And so, we went to Berlin and they treated us very nicely, and we ate the stuff that I used to look. Like audilgoza.

Q: I think I know what that is. That's currants.

A: Oh, it's yummy. What else did they have? Oh, I don't know. It was okay. And they took us to the opera and the Berlin Philharmonic and play. And then they asked us if I wanted to meet a German couple. I said no, that's all right. No, thank you. If you want to do something for me, I said take me birding. And they took me to a forest, and there was aman who was a birder, and he asked me what do you want to see, and I said everything. So we had an extremely nice morning. My husband didn't go. He wasn't up to that kind of stuff and that was very nice. I had a wonderful time.

Q: Well, that's good.

A: Very nice. And then we did meet the German couple because they had listened to me.

And they were lovely people. They were adolish (ph). Do you know what that is?

Q: That's an eagle, right?

A: Von. The name inbetween the first and second name. There's a VON.

Q: Oh, Von, okay.

A: Nobility. They were very nice. They gave us tea and cake. And then which stayed in touch a little bit by mail after that. And after Berlin, we went to we flew to Munich, and we rented a car, and we drove through the Bavaria a little bit and then to northeastern Switzerland where they speak German because that used to be Austria, and we had a holiday there. And then we drove through Switzerland no, this was in Italy, sorry.

Wrong country. Italy. We drove to Switzerland and Frankfurt, and I wanted to get back because it was May, and I wanted to start to bird again. That's all.

Q: Did you get to see your old house in Berlin?

A: Yes.

Q: And was it very emotional?

A: No. It was pink, and I know our house was never pink. They must have repainted it.

But we went to another place where we had lived later, and we looked at it. My husband wasn't comfortable then.

Q: He wasn't. And you were?

A: Well, it was okay.

Q: Reluctantly, mmhmm.

A: It was okay. And we went to another house nearby where we had moved to afterwards, and the same magnolia tree was still there. It was a nice house. Again, we lived in apartments. Like here, everybody has a house.

Q: Right. In Europe, it's not so, right?

A: No.

Q: Especially not

A: I think I should let you let me go because they want to go, and I think I have to eat my lunch and leave with them. I'm dependent on my chauffeur.

Q: Thank you so much for the interview. I really appreciate it.

Conclusion of Interview