Document

CAROLINA KNOCH TAITZ November 13, 1990

Q: Please tell us your name and where you were born.

A: My name is Carolina Taitz. My maiden name is Knoch. I am born in Riga and the date is February 24th and "29.

Q: Tell us a little bit about your family life.

A: When? Before the war?

Q: Yes.

A: We lived in a little small town in Zamgala. My father was a well-to-do man. He was a farmer. He was...by education, he was a agronome. You know when a tree is sick, he always gave an injection and made the tree well. We had cows and we had horses and we had sheeps. We had maids and dogs and cats and chickens. You know, like a farm. And we lived very happy and the kids was growing up nicely and it was a wonderful childhood. I remember my childhood, a very, very nice childhood. I don't remember sufferings or anything. They...my parents loved each other very much, and so love was spread all over our family. The children was loving each other, and it was beautiful. Beautiful.

Q: Did you have brothers and sisters?

A: Yes, I did have a younger brother and I have a 8...8 years older sister.

Q: And then conditions started to change. What were your first recollections?

A: There was no change. We lived wonderful and peaceful and Latvia was a free country, you know. Just like a America. We...we lived very peaceful and very, very nicely.

Q: And then?

A: Then in 41, the...the Russians occupied our country. Because you know, Latvia belongs to the Baltic States, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania and in all these three countries was the same wonderful life like in America. But in 41, the Russians occupied the country, and it was war and it was terrible, and when they settled already in the Baltic States, they confiscated everything. The house and the animals and the gardens. My father has about 10 apple gardens what he was, you know, collected the fruits and was selling and made good money about that. They collected, nationalized...they nationalized everything. So my father was just...we was poor. We have nothing absolutely. The children was going to school to...I was going to a Latvian school and my father was working. I don't remember something very...I can't...I don't know how you say that in English. He was just watching something in...on a...house. I don't know how to say that in English. And the children was going to school, my sister and me.

I... attended a Latvian school. Also there was other schools that my parents sent me to a Latvian school and I learned languages there and it was for one year, we was starving. It was a terrible time. Everything was difficult with food and then after a year, the Germans came over. When the Germans came over, we moved to Riga. We didn't live from the beginning in Riga. We...from the beginning we did live, then we moved back to.. to the Zamgla. Then we came back. When the Germans came, we moved back to Riga because the Germans was collecting all the Jews in one spot because they opened up in...in Riga ghetto where they wanted people to...to settle, the Jewish people. But from the beginning when we moved to...to Riga, we had a nice apartment. We had a four room apartment and that was still in the...in the Russian time. The end of...before the Germans came in, we moved to Riga. And we settled in that apartment until the...the Germans came in. And when the Germans came in, they threw us out of this apartment in that ghetto. A ghetto is a place, a section surrounded by iron _Draht [wire], iron.

Q: Fence?

A: Fence. Yeah. By iron fence and all the Jews was put together there, lived together. And we had one single room in a cellar

01:05: where we all...not my brother, my mother, my sister, my...my father and me we lived there.

There was no toilet, no water, no electricity. Nothing! So there was...they took us there where we...we settled when the Germans til...til my parents was killed. I mean I... just escaped because I...] am surviving.

Q: How did you get your food in the ghetto?

A: Yeah. The...the...the Germans gave us some kind of a ration, you know, little piece of bread and...and kind of soup and we did have to stay in long, long lines to get our rations. I don't...in English you say rations?

Q: Rations.

A: Rations. Yeah. The bread was so small like 3 fingers when you put together that was all what it is. It was...we was starving. The people who was going out to work in town, they could get from somebody...from the Latvians some...sometimes give you a little something, a little piece of bread. Bread was extremely important because bread was the main food and or a candle because we didn't have electricity. But coming back in the ghetto, that was a big problem because on the gate, the Germans was searching you and you didn't...you was not allowed to bring in the ghetto anything. Nothing! Because they themselves needed cigarettes and...and soap. Soap was a big problem because we had lice. We had lice all over. And we want to wash ourselves. There was difficulties with water and7 o'clock, there was the...the...the time when you had to be in your place. You cannot go out. If 8 o'clock, if they find you on the street, you are dead. They shoot you on the...on the spot. So my mother didn't work because my mother had a problem with the ulcers. She had a ulcers problem. She was sick, but my father was getting out to work and my sister was working and the children...I was then 12 years old...13, 12...1 was working in a shoe factory. Uh...The Russians have bomb...bombarded a shoe factory, so there was a, a old, you know...the whole house...the whole factory was in shambles so we did have to clean up all the...the dirt and the...the stones, to schlepp [drag] the stones away and mostly children was working there. And then the shoe...the shoe Schmier [polish], the little boxes, we did have to put from the good boxes, the Schmier back in the...from the bad broken boxes in...in...in the good boxes, and then we did have to on a...on a candle, a fire, we did have to turn it around and make it even that it looks like new. And it was a very a dangerous job because it is...it affect our health. We was coughing and sneezing. It is...it is some kind of...I don't know what it is...that all the childrens get sick after that. But we did have to work there. That's what they...and in the evening, they took us back to the ghetto and when we was there, sometimes somebody give you a piece of bread or...or a carrot, sometimes beans, you know. This...it was difficult with...food was extremely difficult.

Q: What were your feelings as a child then?

A: I didn't understand what's going on. I think if I would be, older, I would commit...commit suicide. I couldn't go through that. Then I thought it is not real. I think because I had my mother, I had my father and you know, I was working. What's the difference? I...a child don't understand much. Also, I was pretty mature I must say for my age. But we was going from the work back to the ghetto and...and that's the way we lived until the final call. The final call was November... November. What does it mean the final call? I'll explain to you. There was outside a big, big sign: ALL PEOPLE, ALL JEWS HAVE TO GATHER TOGETHER AND TAKE THEIR BEST THINGS, THEIR BEST THINGS, AND WHATEVER IN SACKS, IN RUCKSACKS, WHATEVER BECAUSE WE ARE GOING TO BE TRANSFERRED TO A DIFFERENT, TO A DIFFERENT PLACE. So we didn't make a deal out of it. It's supposed to be the next morning, 5 o'clock or

4 o'clock in the morning. So I remember overnight, my father took...told us to take a pillow case with towels to make a rucksack. A rucksack...how do you say in English, a rucksack?

Q: That's right.

A: A rucksack. Yeah. And we put all our best things there because we believed that we are going to transferred to Salaspils, what...what was a bigger concentration camp. So we was peacefully. We didn't think that we are going to be harmed or anything. I mean there was plenty of killings all the time in the ghetto. Because you see some parents lived there in this section and the children live in the other section, and the parents and the children wanted to move together. So if you are out after 7 o'clock or 8 o'clock, they kill you. And it was shooting. I remember...I hear remember the whole night was shooting and shooting and shooting. People was sounds of...of...of shooting people, and that was people who wanted to run around to my daughter or I will run to my dad or to my brother, you know.

People...people wanted to get together or to go to that new concentration camp together. And so we also sewed the whole night. My mother, my sister and me, we sewed all the time the sacks and put the best things. Because...not because we...we just wanted to exchange for bread because bread was the biggest thing there. It's like a house. Because we was constantly, constantly hungry. And then 4 o'clock in the morning, the Germans came armed with...with the whips and "Raus, Raus, Raus." They screamed all the time, "Raus." This

mean "Get out. Get out. Get out." And so they...they threw us all out in the garden where we sit together altogether these people to gather together. There we...we tried to be together because my father had a brother there, Uncle Arthur with his wife and two children, my cousins. So we was lucky. We tried to stay together. We wanted to live all to...because my father was very close to his brother. That's the only brother he ever had. And then when all the people was...you know, there was screams and yells and the...the...the tragedy was that the...the men who was capable to work, they couldn't go with their wives or with their mothers or with their children. They was putting in in a special little ghetto. They called that the little ghetto. There was...this was called a man's...man's ghetto, but in my... in my particular line in that thing where we...we was was mostly old people, old women, mothers with children, with little children. There was a mother who had a baby on her hand and three children on her...holding on on her because her husband was in the other ghetto. And you know, when we passed by we saw them and they were screaming and calling names and...my wife, my child...you know, by their name, "Frieda, Frieda, Sascha, Manya, you know. They...they...because we...we was gathered altogether in a...on the Chaussee, on the big Chaussee to go somewhere. We didn't know where we go. We thought we are going to Salaspils to a concentration camp. We...we hoped so. So we was in that big line. There was 30,000 people. 30,000 people! I didn't know that. They only later somebody told me that there in this particular aktion was 30,000 people. There was two aktions in...in Latvia. I was in the first, but then was in December the other one. Now I am going to just tell you about the first aktion. This is what happened in the first aktion. So we was on that Chaussee. There was blood and snow in November. You know, it snowed and I remember it was squashing, squish, squish... blood and snow, blood and snow, and there was...you know, on the side was people. I...I thought it's...it's wood, but this was not wood. That was dead bodies piled up on each other like a mountain. I say...from the...because it was 4 o'clock in the morning. It was dark. You couldn't even see real good. So then I saw these are people. That was not wood at all. So we straightened out on that...that Chaussee... think it was 10 people in...in a row, you know, like...as...as breit [broad] as the Chaussee, I think it was 10 or 9 people or I cannot remember really. And it was a big, big line. We was one of the last ones who...who was who was joining that...that line. And we start walking. On each side was German, Latvian, so...so Nazis, with their Totenkopf, with the dead skull on their hat, and with a...with a...with a...with revolvers. How you call that? With guns. Yeah. On each side, you know, and with the...with the whips. Go. Go. Schnell Schnell, you know, because there was old people. They couldn't walk. The little children crying. They...it was cold. It was freezing. They wanted Mama, Mama, Mama. And the Mama has a baby on her...on her...this is...[ cannot explain to you what that was. It is disgusting. You just looked, and you couldn't understand what...what's going on. So when we was walking about maybe a half an hour, suddenly from the first line...from the first line, we heard that we are turning in on left. Turning in, not going straight because I don't know, but people knew where Salaspils is. This is a different, total different way. We was turning in...in the left and from the first road the people was screaming, "We are not going to Salaspils. They are going to kill us. They are taking us to Rumbula, Rumbula. I didn't

even know what Rumbula is then Rumbula is woods, woods. So the first line, surely the Germans people start screaming and yelling and some people was running, starting running and as they were shoot on the spot, so the...the whole group...the whole 30,000 people left in the woods, in that Rumbula woods till I saw what it was there. Because we were one of the last ones. Not...not really, but almost. There was already a...a Yama...how do you say that?

Q: Pit?

A: A pit. Yeah. A big pit and the sand was already taken out on both sides. Yellow sand. I remember it was in winter, but it was just fresh...fresh, black and...and yellow sand you know. So make the story shorter, it was a pit. It was a pit. And in the other side, I saw Latvians...I'm sorry, Latvians and German Polizei with...with guns like a...with, you know, like tut, tut, tut, tut, tut, like this. And we did have to undress ourselves. In one mountain was the...the...the clothes, the...the coats, and one mountain was the shoes, and one mountain was jewelry. There's a box with jewelry. Later, the Germans took it back and...and confiscated all this stuff. They...they used it. But we did have to make it very neat, you know. Very neat.

When...when somebody was making not so accurate, you get with that whip and the...all the time they scream: Schnell, schnell sich ausziehen [Fast fest, get undressed]. The people was hesitating to...some people went over to the Germans, say, "You know, I am married to a Latvian. I am married to a Latvian. I am married to a German". Just to explain, "I am not Jewish. I am not Jewish." And they didn't even listen to this. I'm not Jewish or Jewish. "Sich ausziehen, sich ausziehen". But I will tell you about our line. So my father, my mother, my Uncle Arthur, his wife and two children, me and my sisters stands there, and I already took off my coat. I had a beautiful coat my...my father bought me and I loved my coat so very much, but I already took my coat off. In the same minute when I did that...I...we don't know from where and where, there was German officers, about four German officers on horses.

And said...they said: "Halt, nicht schiessen, nicht schiessen, Ich brauche Schweiderinnen".

"Don't shoot. Don't shoot. I need seamstresses. I need seamstresses". Women, if you can sew, come here." My Mom grabbed me and my sister because she supposed to understand German. She speaks Yiddish. Yiddish is like German. It is very close. She said: "Ich bin eine

01:18:

Schneiderin, Ich kann naehen." "I am a seamstress. My children can sew. Please take us.

Take us." So she grabbed me. You know in such a moment, she wasn't thinking about my father, about the uncle and she just grabbed me and my sister and we run over...I grabbed my...schlepped my coat with me and run over to these Germans. And there was other women, "Schneiderinnen, Schneiderinnen " it...it was about 200 women. About 200 woman was the drop with these Germans. And so we stand also with the group and he turned the...the Germans they was on horses. This I remember. On white horses. White and brown, some kind. And and they turn us around and they say, "You follow us." So we were sure that they need for their factory seamstresses. And we are going to be saved because at least we are going to be saved on that particular killing you know. So we followed them, and they took us I don't know where and you know, they took us to a prison. And the name of the prison is Termina. Termina prison. It's still in Latvia. Stilll is there. And the Germans went in and they opened up the door and all these two 200 woman went in in that prison and the Germans disappeared. Until today, I don't know where they are. And we have never, ever worked as seamstresses. Never! Till today, I don't know who they are. Is this a God's miracle or they was partisans or they was who? They just saved 200 women. Now, the story in the prison. Because we are Jews, we couldn't get a normal room with...with, you know, with a...with a...you call it a__commada. You know, you have a commada where you can lie down. You have a...a straw sack and you have a straw pillow like...like prisoners usually do.

Now, they took us on top on the attica, and the attica was a open place. You know, an openly...you know what a attica is. A open place. No ceiling. You...you put up your head and you see the Heaven is there, you know. And in November, usually, in Latvia is snow and cold and...and freezing. And we was in that attica about 3 weeks. We was...lived..lived there.

Like herring in...in..in...in a...in a box, you know. We was sitting on each other. We was sleeping together. And you know all this...I think it's 2 or 3 weeks. I really don't remember that. I remember it was before December. There was not one single snow, not one single rain. The sun was shining. It was beautiful and warm. Nobody froze. Nothing! You know, in my later years, I was thinking, "God, did you do that?" Usually, November, it was...you...you wear a peltz [fur]. It's so freezing cold in Latvia. It was beautiful. The sun in the...during the day, the sun was in the...night the...the...the...the...the sky was beautiful, clean with the stars.

I remember I was lying and looking in the stars, counting the stars. It was like summer. It was magnificent. Nobody get even sick. Nobody. Only we was lice. I remember I...I was lying down and saw lice coming over me. I have never seen so...such big lice, the way I have them on my coat. And I told my Mom, "Look at these lice." She said, "Good. Good." She say, "Don't worry about the lice. You are alive. Good." My Mom believed in God all the time. And she was in that prison upstairs in that attica the only one who had two children with her, so she was quiet with her mouth. She didn't say a word. She was happy that she has two children with her because the other woman didn't have no children, nobody, they were "uno", by themselves there. And so there was jealous on my mother and say, "You are talking. What are you talking? You have two children with you." You know, it was such...such a jealousy between the woman and the madness and one beautiful night, you know, a woman gave a birth to a girl, to a baby girl. Can you imagine? Oh, I will never tell this will something absolutely dreadful. That little kid...kid. A girl! And you know, that she didn't even cry because the mother was so hungry she barely had milk. So everybody was around the children. I remembered my mother gave her underskirt, you know, to...to cuddle in the child and...and somebody was cutting off the...the...the...the, you know, how you call that...I don't know. A little kid...what...

Q: A cord.

A: A cord. Yeah. A cord. And we...we...we was hiding that because when the Germans would know that there is a kid...and you know we hide that girl. Later she came...they killed her

anyway. But the...the...the girl's name was Termina. And she was in the ghetto still till the second aktion. She was still alive, and then she was also killed with her mother, when it was the second aktion. So we was here all the time till the ghetto was cleaned out and after the ghetto. There was a lot of clothes and...and everything, you know, left and...and...and good things and when we...then they took us back...back to the ghetto to prepare for the next killing because there was two aktions. This was the first. This is coming the first...the second. And you know, I was a girl. I was not going to work. Women didn't go to work, only men. So I stay all...all the time by the women's ghetto by the gate and was looking how in the morning, 5 o'clock in the morning, the people...the men...only men's groups...only men's groups was going out to work, going out to work. And it come to mind I have to run. What I'm going to stay here? Because there will be killing. When I will tell that my mother will never let me do it. I wanted out. I wanted out. I wanted out. It was terrible. It was nothing to do the whole day. Just...just wait...waiting for death you know. Everybody was when I'm...when I'm going to kill you. They killed them in December, beginning of December, and I run away. In meanwhile, they brought from...from Kaunas from Vienna, from Holland, from Muenster, from France other Jews to kill them here because as I later heard the...the...the Holland people say, "You want to kill them. Take them out. We are not going to." Latvia was the only country who accepted every other country's Jews to be killed. That is the truth.

Q: So you...you were standing at the gate watching the people.

A: So I was standing by the gate and watching, but you know, only men could go out, not woman. I am a girl so I did need men's clothes. I needed men's clothes. So I went upstairs and was looking. There was all over the place ghetto was clothes as much as you want.

Killed the people and...and the...the clothes what they bring back from that aktion, you know. Clothes was was like this. You can have them. There...there was a lot of clothes. And I put on a pair of pants and, uh...a big jacket I remember such a...and in a hat with...with like a dog hat, with...with flaps here, to look like a boy. And then one morning...that particular morning, I stand on the gate. Gail, I have to tell you something. Everybody asks me, "How could you get out of that gate when there was projectors on you? There was German Polizei with guns walking. Six people this way and six people this way. No way could you get out of this. Not be seeing you. They have to see you. You couldn't open up the gate and get out by yourself. You could not do it because it was light...like a daylight. It was 5 o'clock in the morning. It was very dark. But the projectors was so loud and you know, light that you...you just couldn't. They have to see you. And I opened up the gate and I went...wait...waited where the men's ghetto groups comes out and I ran in in that group and the men surrounded me because they knew what I'm doing. They surrounded me. I was not so tall. I was not so high. They surrounded me and I went out with the group to town. I went to town. And when I was in the town, I did have a Magen David here and a Magen David in the back, so the man in the back took off my Magen David and tells me, "Take off the Magen David on the front. Take off and don't go in the middle of the street," because Jews was going, you know, in the middle of...of the street. Only not a Jews can go on the trottoir [sidewalk], you know.

Say, "Take off on the front there the Magen David and go...go on the trottoir. Don't go in the middle. Go on the trottoir." So I jumped on the trottoir, and the man who was...you know, they have a

Q: Sidewalk.

A: Huh?

Q: Sidewalk?

A: I was on the trottoir. The trottoir, how do you say in English?

Q: Sidewalk.

A: The sidewalk. So I went on the sidewalk when the group went away. So here I was, 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning. Dark. I was so scared and I looked, you know, like...like a Schornsteinfeger [chimney sweep] . You know, what you put in the field and birds are afraid. How you call that? You put it you know like this. It stays like.

Q: [scarecrow]

A: Yeah, you know. I looked awful. Everybody was standing around and looking at me. I looked like really not real. So I knew I have to hide somewhere. I have to go somewhere. I remembered I was going over a station and there was...over a station because I was afraid to meet somebody because everybody was standing around and looking at me. I was looking not real. People don't.. not dressed like me. And then I...1 was walking, walking and sweating, you know. I was so scared. Basically, I wanted to go to our maid. We had a...a Baptist woman who was working years ago with...with my father, so I wanted to go to her house. I remember I know where she was living. And I didn't even mean to...to get in...must be I was walking already couple of hours because it was getting light. It was getting...and I knew I have to hide. I have to go. I cannot go on like this. So I saw a little gate, and I went on in the gate. That was a house. I will show you. I have the picture of the house andthere was wood wood, so I...at first, I...] hide behind the woods just to catch my breath, you know.

It was just so...I didn't know what to do, where to go and...and I was tired and scared and sweaty. And then in that house, there was I saw a door. So I thought, "I'm going to knock on that door because maybe

01:29: there are good people. Maybe there are Russian people. Maybe they will help me." So I knocked on the door and suddenly I heard two dogs barking, you know, Shepherd dogs. And only the Germans did have Shepherd dogs. Nobody else. They was going, you know and...and looking with the dogs where there are Jews are hiding or partisans were hiding so I was sure I did something dreadful. And...and...and the...the dogs was crying terribly, but suddenly I heard a woman's voice in the Russian, ___to the dogs, like "Stop the barking.

Stop barking," in the Russian language. I said, "Oh, My God. This is maybe Russian people.

So I was running back to the woods...to the...the woods. Then I came there was logs. You know, logs in English. Logs. Yeah. Behind the logs. Then I came back and knocked a second time on the door. And the second time, a man came to the door and...and in...in Russian: Kto tam? who is there? And I tell him: Otkrivaetz, otkrivaets. And I tell him, please, open.

Open," in Russian. And he opened the door and here stands a man, so about 40 years old, maybe 39. I don't...I'm not really sure. So about and...say you know, "I run away from the ghetto. Can I be in your place for awhile?" I tell him that in Russian. And he looked at me for a moment. He say, "Come in my child. You will be with me." Then he took me in the kitchen, seated me on the table and give me food. I was starving. I was so hungry. He gave he a glass with warm milk. I will never forget that, and a big piece of black bread. Latvians bake their breads themselves. It was so delicious. Till today, I will never throw out a piece of bread as long as I live. And he told me, said he had yesterday a vision. God spoke to him.

Gail, maybe you don't believe me, but that man is alive and he can tell you the same thing.

And God told him that a humanbeing will knock on your door. Take...take it in. Don't be afraid and save that person's life. I will be with you all the time through. I swear to God if I lie. That's what he told me. But then I believe in a God like you believe in " Ich waiss wos". I didn't believe him. I cuckoo, meshuge. He was a religious person, and he told...and he repeated that all the time, you know. You can ask him. He will tell you. He did have a vision.

He didn't know that I am going to be the one. He thought maybe a old Jew will come or maybe a...a soldier, a Russian soldier. The Germans were treating the Russian soldiers dreadful. They was starving on the streets. They was absolutely starving, these...these poor Russian soldiers. But it was me, and he thought that I am the one. And he told me...I told him, "I don't want to stay in your house. I will go to my Nanny." He said, "No. No. You will stay right here and I will save your life." I didn't want to do it, but...because he didn't let me go away. And in that particular farm family was his father, his mother, his sister, and his sister's husband who was...they...they was all beautiful people. They took me in without any problem. Only had the sister's...the sister's husband was a alcoholic, and they was afraid that being a alcoholic he can start babbling, you know, and telling. You know, my...my wife is saving a Jewish girl. That's all what they was very much afraid. But he was...he didn't do that so he didn't do that. So now he was thinking how to save my life. How to...to be around in the house was not really good. He needs a ...a cellar or something. So because the...the house where...where they lived, they had five...five rooms in five room apartment, and a parquet floor. You know a parquet floor? Yeah?

Q: Wooden, parquet floor.

01:33:

A: Wooden...wooden parquet floor. So in that particular bedroom where I was hiding, he made a hole for me. He broke the...the...the parquet floor not big as my body is that I can myself put in and hide there. So he...he took a shovel and took the earth out and because the Germans was doing a garage in...in...in out of the house so he couldn't take the sand out and...and put it right there. You know how he did that. He put a big coat and put the sand in his pocket. Can you believe hundred times he was going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, till he made me a little bunker. It was as big as I. Know, I was...I don't know how to say, 5 feet or something like this. Not a big one. I just did put down my body and sit there like that crumpled, you know, and sit there. You know, I can sit... mean stretch my...my feet. And then if there was..uh..a danger, I took that...that little top myself and it was with little...L..

Q: Handle?

A: What?

Q: Handle?

A: No, not handles, like like...

Q: Hooks?

A: Hooks. I can hook with...with four hooks. And I was sitting there and then he put on top a table. You know, a table with a big table cloth because the Germans when they came and they did came, they didn't look for me but they looked for his...something else happened. It's a different story. I just want to finish this one. Uh...So and a vase on top so nobody could know where...that's even somebody is hiding in that place. Surely if the Germans would be coming with dogs, they would find me with no questions asked. But God loved me and God wanted to leave me alive, so they came without dogs. This is other story I will tell you some other time. So in that particular hole I sat for 3 years. 2 years and 8 months for...for exact till...the...the...the Russians came in and took it over.

Q: Let's...

A: That's the story.

Q: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit more in detail about living like that under those conditions in the hole.

A: No.

Q: Did you come out during the day or what did you do?

A: During the day because I...you know there is no oxygen in...in...in that hole and it is wet and damp. Also, he put me a mattress there and he put his mother's fur coat there you know. He tried to do the best he could you know. And only when...when somebody was knocking on the door, you know, like the super. The supers was the worst because they was working for the Germans and for every Jew's head...there was a lot of hiding I mean. I was not the only one __. I was...he was...let...didn't let me go by the window. I didn't look through the window in 3 years not even once. The curtains was down and you know I was bored the whole time there. They put me books. They gave me books and...and

Q: Was there any light on?

A: You know what I did? I...L...1...1 am...I crocheted. I like to crochet, and I did gloves you know. L...I'm very handy. I can do it from...from school times. I was crocheting and heckling you know and they were selling the...the gloves you know, and so we have a little bit...bit.

But I wrote a letter to a friend of my...my father's, a farmer woman and I will show you the picture. She really...she should be also in the Yad Vashem. And every second week she sent a package to a different address, not to our address surely. No questions asked and thanks to her I...we can...we could survive. Because the rations what they get...his father, mother was so small, they didn't eat. They give it to me. They didn't eat.

Q: What kind of food did you eat?

A: Uh...They...what they send us. They send us Speck what I would never eat again. Speck. What is speck? Fat You know, pieces of fat and then you make it with...with onions and then you smear it on your bread. This was delicious you know. And then butter sometimes a little...a little honey only because the farmers in German time was...they have their own farm. So whatever they send us, they saved our life. Not only that because that particular person, the Valodya who saved my life, I told him that my Mom and my sister is still in the ghetto so he went in the ghetto.

Q: Yeah. Let's wait a little. What was the sanitary facilities like?

A: In his house?

Q: In the cellar. Yes.

A: Oh, yes. I did not in the cellar. When I did need the facilities, I...I went to the...the toilet that was in the room. And they had a shower. They had a...a bath. I...I took baths. Yes. They took care of me you know. They was like my parents. But...but but the dreadful thing was during...during the German time, the father died, the mother died, and her husband died. And you know, they are...they are ____. They are...there has to be funerals and everything and I am in the house. I couldn't do it you know. It was very complicated. But the worse thing was that I had toothaches...toothaches. Such tooth aches I needed a doctor you know. I had such tooth pain that it...so I colored my hair blonde. That's what he wanted me to do. He get me peroxide. I have dark hair. My natural hair is dark. And he gave me, get me a false passport, and my name was Irma Purinya because if they catch me on the street I could...I could show that I am Irma Purinya, a Latvian you know. And they took me to a dentist. And the dentist fixed my tooth. And that's what he did. He did it. And he said, "Don't be afraid." You know what he did else. One day he put in a Mogen David, a David Star here and a David Star in the back. And he went right in the ghetto, pass the German gate, find my mother, find my sister, bring them food regularly. Regularly the man did it. The way he came in. The way he came out. And you know when the Russians says to me, "How did you do that?" You know what the answer you say, "In the Bible says such a word if God wants he makes you blind, and you don't see it. They didn't see me." That's what brought...that's what it is. And the same as when I went out of the ghetto of the gate. They did not see me. I went out. God...God's finger.

Q: So he brought food to your mother and your sister and then what? Did he bring anything back?

A: Yes, he brings...she gave him...sometimes she gave him some clothes you know because there was all over the place dead people's stuff. And then we sold that, make some money and...uh.. It was a "och und weh" you know. It was...we just...I surely...I surely thought that this is the end of the world because I will never believe that Hitler because he took Czechoslovakia and Poland and...and every country and nothing will be done. The country...the whole world was just watching looking what is going on. And sure he was watching all the time the radio and what's going on the front andI...I thought I'm going to live like that till my...end of my days. He said, "No."

Q: Did he bring any letters?

A: Yes. Yes. What I...The most important thing was when he went into the ghetto...not always he went through the ghetto you know. Only once he did that. The other time he was crawling under the ghetto..-under the...the...the...wire...wires, the...how you call these wires?

Q: Barbed wire.

A: Huh?

Q: Barbed wire.

A: Barbed wires. Exactly. Barbed wires. Under the barbed wires, they had a particular place where...where it was Abendon (?). There where my daughter...daughter...my sister was meeting him. She knows when to meet and also he came to the place where she was working. That was better. In the place where she was working, they...they have a signal you know that they was making signals. He knew when to come. They met and she was writing letters to me and I was writing letters to her, so she know what I...because she didn't even know that I am alive and I run away. My mother was sure I was killed. Because there was shooting, shooting, shooting, and I was run...going around in the ghetto from one end to the other. I wasn't sitting on one spot, so Mom and sister was sure I'm dead. I'm dead. And then when...when my priest came and found them, I told them the address. And he told them that she's...she's in my cellar. She is here. She's alive. You can imagine my Mom. She...she couldn't' believe it how happy she was. So he took out letters from her and I have 10 letters from my sister written to me how they was surviving in ghetto. That's I'm also going to give to you.

Q: Did you life change anywhere in that cellar during those 3 years that you were there?

A: Oh, I wanted to go back to the ghetto. I wanted to be with my mother. And I wanted to be with my sister. They was writing me such dreadful letters. I thought that I'm going to come to the ghetto, let my mother come to here. My mother was sick with ulcers. She couldn't eat nothing. She was losing weight and my...my sister and my mother was extremely close. I was my father's daughter. I was Dad's girl, but she was very...and she wrote me that Mom is very sick and medicine. They didn't have any medicine you know. Aw, she was very ill, my mother. And the moment she cannot work, my Mom would be...my Mom would be shot.

They don't need sick, old people. They don't need them. So my...my... my sister's letters was breaking my heart and I wanted to go back. I thought it's so simple. I will go back to the ghetto. Mom will come in place of me and the man will save her and I will go to...stupid you know, but that's the way I wanted. And my sister was sending me terrible letters. "Don't you be dumb. You don't do that? How can you do such a thing? Mom will never change with you, you know?" And so you will read the letters. It's just...1 would... wanted to go back. I wanted to go back. I wanted to be with my Mom.

Q: Did you have any contact in the cellar with anybody besides the family that you were staying with?

A: Uh... had a contact only with the...No. There was a family, friends of...of my savior.

His...his friends and in...in a case if I would be in danger here, I would maybe go to their house. But they didn't play a big role in my life, but...but I have their names and I'm very thankful because they also bring food and shared sometimes. I saw them. Yes.

Q: While you were in the cellar, did the Germans ever come to the house?

A: Yes, they did. They did. Not...not looking for me. Should I tell you that?

Q: Please.

A: Uh... You see basically, I have two saviors. That priest and his sister. These two people basically saved because the parents died and her husband died, so I was left with these just two people who saved my life till the very end. And..uh...the sister...they are a very intelligent family you know. Her father was a tea representative in India, and the mother was a painter. They...they are very intelligent people. And she was a porcelain painter. She was paint..painting porcelain, and she was working on a factory. Kuznibor is the name of the factory. She was painting vases and plates and she was a marvelous. I have some plates home in New York. And there was working a Russian...a Russian what is Vajena Pleinik (?).

How...how do you call that in English? Oh, God. I have...I needed that word.

Q: That's alright.

A: No. No. You have to know that. They are war...war...you know when Hitler look them, they are what? War... Help me?

Q: Prisoners...prisoners of war?

A: Prisoners of war? Exactly. There was working prisoners of war in that factory doing dirty jobs. But because she's Russian, and the people are Russian, so she also bring food to them and...and befriended them you know. And there was was two guys whom she wanted to help. So she bring him to the house....to our house. I saw him through the door. You know, I opened up the door and I saw a little bit of them. I remembered how they looked. They didn't know that I am there. They didn't tell them that they're hiding a Jewish girl there. So I... was...I saw him. And...My priest get them priest clothes and false documents and we wanted them to go Resikecky you know you took...to bring them over to the Russian area so they could go or to the partisans or somehow closer to the Russians you know, and they wanted to save their life. Everybody knew. No, his father and mother were stilll alive. I'm sorry. Then when...when they saved these two people, the father and the mother was not dead yet. Only her husband was dead. So they bring him in that house. They clothed him in that priest's clothes, get him the documents, and let him go. The Gestapo catched him not far from the border and took him back to the Gestapo. And they scalped them. They scalped them. So at night at 3 o'clock in the morning...we already had...we didn't know nothing. Somebody came the day before and told Olga...Olga is the name of the...of the woman who did that...to disappear because there will be definitely a...a blava...how you call that?

Q: Search.

A: A search. So she disappeared. We didn't even know where she is. So they come not to look for me. They come for

01:47 particular Olga. So 3 o'clock in the morning: "Aufmachen" Banged the door. "Aufmachen" And I'm in bed. You know, I'm sleeping in the bed. So they...they have to hold on the door until I'm in the...in the...in the pit till I close the...the top, till they put the table on top, till they table cloth on top, till they put the base on top. And "Aufmachen, aufmachen, aufmachen".

So everybody, you know, is out of breath and scared. Aufmachen! So they surrounded the whole house. They surrounded...inside maybe 6...6 police looking, looking, "Where is Olga Katzinova? Where is Olga Katzinova?" And his mother speaks fluent German. She say, "She is not here. She don't live even here. She...she went 2 weeks ago. We saw where she comes and goes we have no idea." And and he was touching every bed, every bed and surely you know people just 3 o'clock the beds are warm. He say, "Who slept in this bed?" So Elizabeth Irina, the mother, say, "My dog. My dog." She has two dogs. "My dog slept in that bed." And then she...he found a pant...my panties, you know my little panties." He said, "Is this the dog's panties." "No," she said, "this is my panties." Because she was very tiny. She was a tiny woman. And they turned the house around, and they arrested my priest, the father and the mother and Valodya, all...all of them. And I'm in the cellar by myself with the two dogs upstairs. And how long can I stay there inside. I have no air. I have to get out. And the...the two dogs are "hmm hmm hmm hum," go around. You see, Gail, what I want to tell you is if they would come with dogs, they would find me because the dogs would smell me out you understand. That miracles that God send the Germans without the dogs. Isn't this something?

Tell me. They never...they always came with dogs. Always! But this time they didn't. So I...L..] count that a God's miracle again, and I can tell you about miracles more and more and more. And they arrested the whole house and I was by myself in that cellar with the two dogs. Now I think to myself, "Maybe there is a German upstairs waiting till Olga comes home. I cannot open up. They will find me. What should I do? How long can I stay? I was already without breath." And then I called, Chippie, Biggie. This is the names of the dogs. And if those dogs come to me, around me, "Hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm," because I know when there would be a German that these dogs was trained to bark on Germans. She trained them to bark mostly on Germans. They didn't bark. Nothing! So I say, "There must be nobody." And they was hungry. I have to give them some food. So I open up my little top and I went out and there was nobody. But what not? Now they are arrested. And this was I will

01:50: tell you 6 o'clock in the morning. They...they was searching for 2 hours. They arrested...now follow me. Six o'clock in the morning, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6...nobody! I was alone. I didn't know what to do. What should I do? Now they are dead. I know the Gestapo will not let them come back. They are dead. What I'm going to alone in that big house. You know...you know I didn't know what to do. I... was dying. L..I...[ have to go back to the ghetto. Six o'clock in the evening they all came back home. Aw, he was worrying about me, and I was worrying about them. You can imagine what a welcome it was to both of us. We was hysterically crying and...and...and his mother and father kissed me and hugged me and oh, they was such beautiful people. I'm telling you I have never met in my life that kind of fine people as they was. So they came back and they told me they was taken to the Gestapo and they saw these two soldiers, these Russian...Russian war prisoners. They was scalped.

They was scalped. They didn't recognize them. And they asked, "Do you know them? You know...this is . This is eye to eye witness. They say, "We never saw him." They...they was hitting them and...and beating them and they say, "No, we have never...we don't know them who they are. We don't if Olga did? We have no idea. But we have never seen them." "Didn't you give them the clothes? Didn't you give them the passport? Didn't you..." They say, "No, no, no, no, no." "I think that's lie." Also they tortured them, tortured them, then let them go. They was blue and green when they came home. So that was one of the biggest happiness when they came back to me. And that's...that's one of the biggest. But then they...this was other searches, but not this one because they surrounded the whole house and so.

01:52:

And I did have to be careful. I...L..I liked to look through the window. I wanted to see things.

You know I was bored. And...

Q: What happened in one of the other searches?

A: Nothing. Nothing. They didn't find me. I was down there. They didn't let the people even in.

They didn't come the second time because they have these people. They shoot them. They was killed.

Q: And then it became toward liberation and...and what happened?

A: And then came liberation and I stayed with them for awhile because I didn't have anybody to go. And then I get my own apartment and went back to school, and when I was 17 I married, and that's also the story after the war.

Q:

A: The Russians came back.

Q: Did you go to look for your family?

A: I knew where my family was. What is to look for? Nothing to look. Life goes on.

Q: And then what happened after you got married?

A: I married and I had a...you know, in Latvia, I already have Grundschule [elementary school], I finished before my hiding, six...six classes. We have to, then it's gymnasium you know, the middle school. But I finished the theater what is together with the high school. And I wanted to be actress or do something in show business and met my husband and get married and L...1 was able to have a baby, my baby girl, Aviva. And we lived better than ever. We had everything. We was working. My husband was working. Then...

Q: Then you stayed how long in Riga?

A: We was fighting with the Russians for 15 years. Thirty six times they refused us to get out.

They didn't give us a permission. We was one of the very, very first. We wanted out. My husband wanted out because he was in Russia. That's the way he survived. He was in Russia.

He came back after the war as a soldier. And he survived only that, and he hated them guts.

He wanted back and out of here. So we found his mother. What we didn't even know that she is alive. We thought that she is also dead. Because you know, it was such a chaos during the war. When the Russians came in, people was evacuating and and my father didn't want to go to the Russia, because he hated the Communisms, and that's why we went... Maybe if my father would, you know, evacuate together with us, maybe he would be even alive. But that happened. He didn't love them and he didn't want them. And in the first war, the...the Germans was not bad. They treated their war...war people very good. So my father said, "I'm not going to go," and that's why we didn't go. But, maybe that was a mistake and I think it was, but what can I do about it?

Q: And then you made arrangements to come to the United States?

A: We wanted to come to America. After we found our mother...this is not...my husband's mother. She escaped during the war somehow. I don't even know how. And through the Red Cross we found her and and she started to...to wanted to get us out, send us visa, visa, visa.

And she has connection with with Mrs. Roosevelt, so we had...she had a high connection with her. But she was already old. She was 87. She was elderly woman already. And and after 15 years with troubles what the Russians make us. My husband lost a job and I lost a job and they put us in the newspaper the Americans, the Americans, and laugh at us. And I have all the, you know, the writings. I took it with me. I would like to put it with...but not now.

Q: When did you come to the United States.

A: 67.

Q: And were did you settle?

A: And we settled here. I got a apartment and mother died. And we started to work. My girl went to school and...and we have nothing. You know, we didn't have...we started from scratch with...with nothing. We...they said, "You want to go,

01:56: you go, but you can take with you nothing." People come now they take furniture, other things with. We just came the way we stand. We have nothing, zero, null. But I have everything right now. I have everything what I need you know. Maybe not rich. We are not...] am not rich that's for sure. But I am...I love America. This is my,...I don't know...this is everything what I can ask God to give me. He blessed me that he took me out of this Hell. I love America more than anything in this world. And I was working. I get a job at the New York City Opera. I was there working for 16 years. I was in charge of makeup in hair department, and I enjoyed my life. I love show business. I couldn't make it as an actress, so...because I have an accent with my language, but I did commercials. I did commercials.

But I also washed dishes, and I also was babysitting to make a dime. That's okay.

Q: And do you have a grandchild?

A: Oh, yes. My daughter...my daughter get married. I found her husband. I am the one. And she has a wonderful husband, also from Riga, from Latvia. He's a president of a company.

Q: Do you have any messages for your grandchild?

A: No. No. They don't understand. But they read my sister's letters. Also they was bored.

They...they...they asked me questions, "Why? Why? Why? Why did the Germans do this?" You know that they cannot even understand what I cannot understand myself. Why? Goetha, Heine How can you believe? Schiller.... It's unbelievable. The Germans did such a thing?

Gassed people? Why did they gas? You know they don't understand? The children I talk to them always why? Why did they do that? It will take a long time till they will understand.

When I was learning the Spanish inquisition...you know there was a Spanish inquisition...I read one thing what I remembered that they was taking off the nails from people. I remember when I read that I thought, "Why? This is terrible? Why do they do that? It is terrible?" They was sadists, that's why. Sadists! What they did with me when I was still in ghetto...this is other time to tell...I don't think we have time to tell that. It's too much.

Q: This is while you were living in the ghetto.

A: In the ghetto before I run away. There was every night you know, a blava. How to say when the Germans come and...?

Q: Search.

A: Search. At first they searched for candles, cigarettes because candles and cigarettes and soap was a big deficit. So if the Jew... Jews has it, they came at night and they was always drunk.

Then they took girls 12 years, 13 years old girls and raped them. Drunk! They don't know what they are doing, you know. I had an interesting...I was many times hit by the whips and everything, but this particular one I have to tell you because this is to show you how sadistic a person can be. Our...our commandant's name was...

01:59:

Q:

A: Our commandant's name was Donskopf. I remember that name. Donskopf Nobody is looking for him. I have calls. Maybe I know this and maybe that name and that name, but this name I know particular nobody is looking for him. I don't know why. He was our ghetto commandant, and his name is Donskopf. And my sister in her letters name his name too. So this Donskopf was coming over andI remember when we came over, he always looked at me. I think he liked children. I mean I was not a child. I was, you know, pretty good developed. And he came in and we have a oven, a little stove where we was making tea or something, you know, because the stove was heated with wood. And my mother...in that room was living my mother, Mrs. Schapiro, a girl by the name Mary, I and my sister, and a other woman also and then later she moved out. And when they came in, they was looking, "Do...do you have..." There was four policei, Latvians. There was no Germans. They was Latvians. They came in and was, "Do you have cigarettes. Do you have bla, bla, bla." And if you don't give it to them, then they search and that's worse. And then I was standing then in the front and he told me to undress. To undress naked. Naked! And you know, I didn't want to do it, but my mother spoke in Latvian to me, "Do it. Do it." She stayed in back of me and she said, "Undress," in Latvian to me. And I undressed. I was just in my panties. And he told me to take a chair and to get up on the stove. And I...I was...the stove was up about so high. Not higher for me. I was on the stove and I did have to jump from the stove. Then he told me to get up the stove again and to jump on the stove. And then I... jumped about maybe 7 times. I don't remember the count. And then they turned around and went away.

They didn't rape me. Didn't do nothing. Just look at me. How I was doing that. Isn't this sadism? Isn't this sadism? This is real sadism you know? Why did they do this? What for?

What pleasure did they have in that? I can't understand. And then the other episode with...what I will never forget.

Q: Thank you. Yeah. We're going to change tapes now. Tape #2

Q: You were going to tell us about your experiences.

02:03:

A: Yeah. I want to tell you just one more story. Uh...We were standing in line getting our bread, our ration bread. It was so small, you know, that you know you can...you have to drip(?) it to eat it. I don't know. How big is that? Three fingers wide. So we did have to stand in the line, and I was standing with my mother in the line, usually one of the last ones. And there...there was only old people, old man, old woman because the younger was...was working. The old people usually was standing in line whatever they was giving us. Suddenly, for no reason...for no reason, the German brown shirts with their death...death sign on their hats, SD...I don't know what the name is, came on motorcycles and start whipping these old people with a whip so badly. For no particular reason! They beat them and beat them and the poor people was falling on the floor...floor. My mother grabbed me and we had in a...in a door in...in a house...in a house door. And I was seeing that with my own...own eyes how these people...everybody who was standing in line was whipped so hard. They couldn't...they was running. They was falling on the floor. The way they came they beat up the people. The way they ran away with the motorcycles. Tell me why. What is it? Isn't that sadism? This episode also stays in my mind all the time.

Q: Were there any other experiences in the ghetto like that?

A: Uh...Plenty, but I don't want to talk about it. I don't. I can't. It upsets me. I don't want it. Ask me something else.

Q: Not even one, one other...

A: I cannot tell you. Shootings and killings. You walk over. You...you...you think it is...is a piece of log. No, it's a dead man.

Q: Is there anything else that you wanted to...to add.

A: I want also to tell that I am not perfectly cured from all that. I see I have nightmares...I...many times. It is like yesterday. It is 45. 50 years already. It is like yesterday.

I see all the things over and over. I...I wake up in my bed all sweat and the Russians... mean Russians no, the Germans are after me. They hit me with the whips. They whip me, whip me. Once they whip me when I came in and they found a...what did they find in my...I think a candle. You know, we didn't have lights, so I found...about | candle, he hit with the whip that my feet was swollen with...with such things my feet was. Why did they whip me for?

Because they took away...they found in my pocket a candle. This all...always comes back.

That always comes back. And you know what I notice on myself. I was in show business and Ihave had in Latvia a fantastic life. I go to parties, and I go to, you know, movies and everything I did. And you know, I was always sad. I was always sad. I put on a face. I was dancing. I like to dance and...and so I am not in drugs and never drink. I don't smoke. Never.

Never did I do that. And I...I pray when I am in a bad mood. I pray and that...that...that I take out my...and I love music. Music is my drug. I adore music. But you know I am always until today, that sadness don't go away from me. The sadness is always with me. I...I go out...I'm invited and I look at these people and say, "Boy, they don't know nothing what I know." They would...sometimes my daughters throws out bread or the children, "I don't like this. I don't like that." It makes me sick to my stomach. | will never throw out anything. I remember all the times that there were so many hungry people. They would give their lives for a piece of bread you know. Bread is... You will see the letters, bread, bread, bread. This is like...like a house, like a car, like diamonds. And this never let me go, you know. I speak to doctor sometimes. I...L..I... feel sad. And you know I...God made such a miracle with me. I have traveled. I came to America. I had a job. I was invited. I meet beautiful people, show business. I love show business. Here I met Placido Domingo, Pavarotti. 1 2? I worked with...I

seen Karayan. I have seen every opera in the world. I was in every opera house. You know, this is what I like. I have...whatever I ask, God gives to me. He give it to me. I want to travel.

I have no money. He makes I have money. I go with travel. I wanted to go to Jamaica. I go to Jamaica. I wanted to go Paris. I go to Paris. He does it. I am not rich. Not at all. He does it.

Don't ask me. He does it. But I am always sad. I go to these places and I am sad. In my inside, I am not cured. I am always sad. This is you know like a stamp, like a stamp. How you say that? You know, like a "Staempel" on my soul. This is it. And it breaks my heart my daughter don't understand that. My grandchildren...they have their own life. I don't want them to understand because it's a sad story. It is sad...1 am happy that they are happy. I want them to be only happy. Really. I mean it. But I need...you know, sadness need company. I need somebody to...to have pity on me a little bit. And...uh...all the people with whom I was together are dead or they are somewheres where I cannot reach them or they don't want to talk about that. I have met people. I say, "You was with my sister. Why don't you tell me something about her?" "Don't ask me. I will not tell it." I say, "Come over. I want to know how she died." "No." And she don't come. And there is a person who knows. And there are a lot of people who can come and tell you stories and they don't because it is terrible, terrible painful. It is painful. I'm doing it because I think that maybe we'll take that sorrow off my soul. Because I have two things what I have to put the Valodya name in Yad Vashem. It's my duty. And if I can also, his sister's name, and I have to give the letters to the Holocaust Museum. This is my duty. Maybe I will feel better after that. 1 am always sad. And always I like crying kind of. (Crying) (Sigh) (Pause) And I will tell you I'm sorry I'm alive. I'm ashamed. I am absolutely ashamed that I'm alive because why did all these people have to die? Who is me? Why did God pick up me? I don't like this world. I am from a different era.

This is not my time to live. I am compassioned, with feelings, with...with caring. The world is not like that right now. It is rude. It is dirty. I can't stand dirty language. I don't belong. I want to go back. I...I talk to God every day. Take me back. Take me back. It is not my time to go. I understand that. But I am not happy in this world. I mean to go out and...and I don't go out because I don't like it what I see. I can't stand drugs. I cannot...dirty language kills me.

You know I...my time is Renaissance. I am...1 am born in wrong time. And I feel guilty that I am alive and other people are dead. Each time I eat, I thank God. I go to the American supermarket. I am here in this country with 25 years very soon. Okay? I cannot understand so much of everything. It is so beautiful this country. When I will die, I will ask God to send me right back to America. And people don't cherish that. America! America! You know I punched in the mouth one person. I can't hear that word that America is bad. The best! The tops! The only one! And that's what I feel. I feel sad. And something else I wanted to tell you very much. I believe in God. I was not a believer at all, and don't everybody forget, it was by a priest and the priest didn't influence. Not true. He didn't influence me about nothing.

02:11:

He is an evangelist. You know, he...respects the Old Testament and the New Testament and he should live in Israel. He's more Jewish than you and me together. He is a wonderful person to talk to him. But he's old and he...always he says, "I didn't save your life. God saved you." And you know, getting older I start thinking about the miracles. The magnificent miracles what happened to me. Like I was in...in...in prison. One beautiful appell. You have to stand in line. One person goes left, one person right, one person goes left, one person goes right. We knew that one of this line is going to be killed because there's too much people there so they have to kill somebody. So I went left. My sister, my mother went right. My sister went left. Yeah? I run over to the...I know that she's going to be dead. I knew. Don't ask me how. I have a intuition from my childhood. I knew what is bad or what is good. Like somebody tells me that I am born in. I have till today. I can look at you and I can read your...your... your horoscope. I have a intuition. So I ran over to the Germanit was Wehrmacht man. It was not a Nazi. It was a soldier. I said, "Please let my mother come in my line. Please because my sister is there." He said, "Okay." And he didn't say, "No." And my mother...and all these people where my mother was in line was dead, and we survived.

And if they ever created ?? in these letters, you will see that when I have my sister's last letter...this is a very important letter. There is the date and the time and the year when they were evacuated from that working platz, where they was working for the Einheit. And she writes right now we don't have...a...I mean the...the cars are not ready, so maybe we will stay and I will you a other letter. But if not, this is my last letter and I tell you goodbye. Oh, this is just a...L..I was hysterical when I read that. You will see the letters are the most... am not important. The most important thing is my sister's letters. You will see how they was living in ghetto when I was having a warm place to live and eat and everything. I feel guilty.

Guilty! Guilty! But why did God pick me up from all these 30,000 people I have no idea. I have no idea. I am not such a girl. I wasn't listening to my mother many times but maybe he thought that... I...I start thinking about the miracles when I was getting older. You know because God was always on my mind. Always on my mind! I thought something must be more than all this what I see. There must be...there must be a...sure it is not a God with a beard and...and...and sitting in his chair as a child as I thought it is. But when somebody ask me, "You and your God." You know people don't like when you say that. "Caroline, You're a modern woman. What is going on with you? God. God.

What is God?" So I tell them, "Do you know what is love? Could you tell me? Please, tell me what is love? How can you...destiny needs that. Destiny...what is love? To me, God is love. The all good things is God." And I start thinking, "How did I get out of the ghetto?

How? How? With all the projectors, with all the Nazis there?" I did. How did I know that I have to go in this line and not in this line. Why did the Germans came on their horses and took me away from that killing spot in the prison? How? Why? And you know I could tell you millions of this moments. Millions. I could write now. Miracle, miracle, miracle, miracle, miracle, miracle. I start thinking, "Hey. This is not real. This is miracles. And somebody did that. Not you did it. God did it." And I started to believe in it so that of today if you ask me, "Caroline, what is your biggest desire? What do you...would like to know. Do you want to travel? Do you want steaks? Do you want fish? Tell me what do you want?

Diamonds? Clothes? Furs?" I have it. I don't want it. I have it all the steaks in the world. I have all the best fish in the world. I have traveled all over the... You know what I want? If you ask me, | will tell you, "What I want of today, I want to know God better." This is the only thing what I don't know. Everything I have searched and I know there is nothing.

Nothing. I know that I know nothing. That I can say. I want to know God better. He is love.

And this world is without love.

Q: Thank you very much. Beautiful way to end the tape. Beautiful.