Document

HANNAH KALMAN November 23, 1992

Q: My name is Gail Schwartz. Today is November 2374) 1992. I am here to interview Hannah Kalman, who is a survivor of the Nazi holocaust. This interview is being conducted as an oral history project of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Could you please tell me your full name?

A: My name is Hannah Feiner, from my husband, Kalman, K-a-l-m-a-n.

Q: And where were you born?

A: Tm born in a small city, Opoczno, Poland.

Q: And when were you born?

A: 1912.

Q: What day?

A: The day is the 20" of January.

Q: Where was the town located? Was it near a large city?

A: Li -- yeah, Tomaszow Mazowiecki was the core city to Opoczno.

Q: And let's talk about your household. Did you have any brothers or sisters?

A: We were eight childrens, five brothers, three girls.

Q: What were the boys" names?

A: The boys names was all -- the oldest was Herzkel, the younger one was Avram, the third one was Noisho, the fourth one was Chaim, the fifth one was Vervela. He was nine years old.

Q: And the girls" names?

A: Was Uhu, Silwa and Hannah.

Q: And what were your parents" names?

A: My father's name was Yankov Feiner. My mother died when I was two years old, so I don't know the -- even the name from my mother -- I know.

Q: What was it?

A: The name was Malka Byla Kazuzka. She was from Warsaw, a very big city.

Q: W-Where -- what kind of work did your father do?

A: In -- in Poland was this -- a big factory, but ac -- a ca -- a -- like, the United States was a small factory skins. We were all making out all kind of skins. [indecipherable] skins [indecipherable] and we were making jackets from lambskin. Yeah, it was -- was a -- a-- a -- a nice [indecipherable] but we got a good business, yes.

Q: Can you tell me a little bit about the town that you lived in? Were there mostly Jews in that town?

A: Yes, was a Jewish little town, not a big one. I think was ba -- close to hundred thousand, but I don't know a full hundred thousand. And the Jews lived together like relatives, very close to each other, very close, yes.

Q: And did you have a very religious family life?

A: Very religious, very religious, yes, yeah.

Q: And what about going to synagogue? Was there a synagogue near you?

A: The synagogue, yes. The synagogue was separated -- separate for womens and separate for mens. The upstairs was for womens and the downstairs was for mens.

Q: How many synagogues were there in the town?

A: We got two synagogues. Obis medalish was -- had a very religious people because they didn't came in where womens are. The other synagogue was upstairs and downstairs, was a very

religious too, because the womens were separated. So we got two synagogues, a synagogue and Obis medalish.

Q: And did you live right in the center of the town?

A: No. We had to live out of the town because this -- these skins, when we start to work on them, th-they are not good smell, and we need water. So we had to live out of town because the people were complaining about th-the smell and about the water. So we lived out of town, close to our water.

Q: How far out of town did you live?

A: Oh, this was a small city, let's say ba -- about 10 blocks out of town.

Q: Tell me about your schooling.

A: School, we had elementary school for Jewish childrens. For Jewish childrens separated, and the Catholic was separated because anti-Semitism was very big there, so we couldn't go together. Later my father moved out to a bigger city to have more school for us. So we moved to Tomaszow Mazowiecki.

Q: What year was that?

A: The year. Wait, I'll tell you.

Q: How old were you when you -- when you --

A: When we moved out I was about 10. 10 - 11 years old.

Q: Okay. Did you have any non-Jewish friends when you were very young --

A: Yes, I got --

Q: -- before you moved?

A: Yes, I got one girlfriend, because I went a year to the Catholic school. One Jewish girl. So I

picked a girl, but she was a little nicer than the other ones, and she was closer to me.

Q: How is it that you went to the Catholic school?

A: Because we didn't got no more school there. So I went for a year for th -- to the Catholic school.

Q: How old were you then?

A: 11 -- about 10 - 11 years old, yeah. And so I already got the hard time there. And so my father moved out with us to a bigger city [indecipherable]

Q: So you said your mother passed away when you were very young?

A: Two years. I don't know who --

Q: So who helped raise you, your father?

A: We got a good stepmother. A very nice, good woman.

Q: And her name?

A: Was Rifka. A very nice woman.

Q: And then you moved to the next -- to the -- a new town?

A: To Tomaszow Mazowiecki. And my father start to buy wool. I don't know how to explain to you. We -- my father was traveling a whole week to Danzig, Midgosh, Poland, Gdansk, this is the border from Germany. So I got a little bit school to learn German, because I had to do the writing the letters for my father. And over there my father bought big quantums of wool. The wool was cut from the lambs and we washed -- we got -- we ca -- we got factories that we gave in the wool and they washed clean the wool. Later we gave in to very big factories, modern factories, and they make materials. So that time was other kind materials like we having now, but that time we got from the best materials, wool materials, yeah. This was Tomaszow Mazowiecki.

Later, my father got sick because my father was very sensitive. The smell from the skins affected him. And that time wasn't like today, in the small city we got one doctor and believe me his -- he didn't got a pair shoes, they were all with holes, because each of us was a doctor. If I got the sore throat my father took the stick with cotton and dipped in iodine and gargled -- and cleaned my throat and I went to school and I was okay. So each of us was a doctor. So my father got sick and we didn't know any profession, all the eight of us. And the little money from day to day get but less. So my father got sick so we send my father to Shawnitz. Shawnitz was a special place to cure TB. This was high hills and woods and over there they got water from the mountains. And the water I remember, Josefina and the other one I don't remember. Two kinds of water my father was drinking, Josefina, I don't [indecipherable] and the water gave a little relief, and the air from the woods was giving a little relief. No medicines that time, not in Poland. Even in America they didn't got no medicines for that. So we had to start a little bit to help to work, but we didn't got no professions. So I start with hand -- handwork. I was making beautiful curtains, the name was filet. Do you understand what I mean filet?

Q: Embroidery? Was it embroidery?

A: Embroidering. First of all, | was making the net by hand. Later, I got -- how you say gamuster?

Q: Lace? Is it lace?

A: Not lace. A copy. I was copying f-from --

Q: A pattern?

A: A pattern. And I was making beautiful curtains, beautiful bedspread, beautiful tablecloths and napkins and I was making nice money. This was only going to rich people. Lawyers, doctors,

rich people. And I got work and I was making nice money.

Q: How old were you then?

A: 16 - 17 - 18, til -- til I got married, I still worked on that, yes. The brothers start -- yeah, we got a little bit leftover monies and my father bought handmade machines to make socks with stockings, because the brothers went to Yeshivas. They were religious, and my father didn't want -- want them to make [indecipherable] tailors or sheestas -- shoemakers. So they got three machines and they were working on the three machines and later I was helping the finishing up.

When they came out from the machine, they got on the toes, a opening. So we bought Singer's machine and I was sewing together the seams. Later we got forms, I was putting on -- on the forms and putting nice, like in the nicest store. And we were selling this to bigger cities. A little bit in this -- our city too, but the most was going to bigger cities. So we got the uncle and we got our big st -- store, like wholesale. So they took up -- they took the work. So we got a little income from this, but I helped, I worked too.

Q: Did you know any of your cousins or aunts or uncles or grandparents?

A: I know them, but between our family was a little bit arbut yiddishim. Do you know what I mean yiddishim?

Q: Little conflict?

A: Yeah. The grandfather was giving the each son, build two rooms and a little small factory.

And we lived together in [indecipherable] with our grandfather. My father was a little bit -- he was very religious, but he liked a little bit more modern. So he build in a third room because was not enough -- like [indecipherable] we were sleeping two in a bed, and the table from the kitchen was in the daytime our -- our table, in the nighttime was a bed. So my father got a good friend

from a very little city, smaller than [indecipherable]. So my father took by him alone and he put in -- in this room. But my father went away to buy stove, I told the [indecipherable] the German brother, the younger brother came in with, let's say a lawyer and he make my f -- grandfather to sign to him the house. So was a fight between the brothers. So I never called him uncle, he never know me. We -- we moved away, because all the time was fights, and ni -- ni -- a little bit police and this and this. So my mother said, listen here. I can't stand this any more. Let's move out and forget about the yiddisha. Let it stay. And this is staying til today.

Q: And --

A: All the uncles, all the relative are gone, but the places, they are still there, because my brother [indecipherable] he passed away, he went to Opoczno -- he went to Poland. I went to Poland, I was afraid to go there, but my brother took a taxi, a taxi driver, he was driving with him a whole day and he took them to the place, and our house walked out a la -- a-a -- a Gentile lady, so the chauffeur, I think he was a hidden Jew, because he said, Mr. Feiner, please go into the taxi, if not, we both gonna get killed. So my brother listened to him and they went back to the city.

Q: In your -- in the second town that you moved to --

A: Yes?

Q: Did you have any friends that were not Jewish?

A: No, no, over there I did only -- all of it [indecipherable] because my father was a very religious man, I couldn't bring in Gentile of people -- but, my father was dealing with in the factories with Germans, so he got a few, and the -- the bookkeeper from the factory was a big, big [indecipherable] but he liked Jewish fish. So my father invite him Friday night for gefilte fish. So they brought in the wives, the children, so this was the difference, yeah. Only from the

place that my father dealed with them.

Q: Did you go to school in this new town?

A: Yes, yes.

Q: What kind of school was it?

A: Still public. Yeah, yeah. Over there in the -- in Tomasz6w Mazowiecki I finished the public.

Later they moved in Galut and I went to night school. Of course, I had to work. I told you my father got sick, he was a [indecipherable] eight childrens, so we had to try to bring a little bit income in.

Q: Did you experience any anti -- any anti-Semitism in your s -- in the second town?

A: From all over. Not from the second, from the third one, too.

Q: Well, we're still in the second town, so --

A: The second town was very anti-Semitic --

Q: Can you describe any -- any experiences you had that were anti-Semitic?

A: Wait. One time an older man went under boss -- or -- or [indecipherable] how is that [indecipherable]?

A2: Streetcar.

A: A streetcar. When the man came down from the streetcar, I think the man was giving the Gentile people stuff like to pay off. This was a peddler. Do you know what I mean a peddler?

Okay. So I saw boys and girls from 12, from 15, they were stoning him. My sick father ran into the house to bring down -- we -- we didn't got [indecipherable] and stuffs like here, they got [indecipherable] coal, so he got a iron to bring down, you know? So my father took fast a st -- th- the iron stick to run to help the -- the -- th-the older man. But the man what he drove the

streetcar, walked over and he ga -- hoo -- got my father like this and he says, you stay away because they going to kill you, too. And they killed with the stones [indecipherable]. He was sixth late -- eight -- 60's. He was a gray man. I remember him like now.

Q: And the other experi -- anti-Semitic experiences in that town?

A: Yes. They got big sticks and razor blades in the edge and when people walked with the back to them, so they cut up. Sometimes they cut til [indecipherable] Yes? [interruption, tape break] -- was very -- should I start? Was very dangerous for us to walk in the street. We got two holidays, the first of May and the third of May. The Jewish childrens, the third of May went to the synagogue to celebrate the third of May. When we walked out from the synagogue, the boys, the Gentiles and the girls were waiting outside and they were throwing on us mud, because we were dressed nice like to the synagogue. The anti-Semitry -- I can talk nights and days and I bet I -- I - - I wouldn't finish up from the anti-Semitic from Poland.

Q: Okay. Then yo -- then how long did you stay in that town, the second town?

A: In the second town, til my father got sick.

Q: And then tell me what happened.

A: So we moved to Lodz. Ledz is a city, a industry -- a big city. Well, we were able to find something to help our parents to make a living.

Q: How far away was Lodz?

A: Oh, about a hundred kilometer, 120? Like this, Lodz was a big city, a million population, 300,000 Jews.

Q: How did you get there?

A: We moved there. Th-They rented an apartment.

Q: No, how did you get from one city to the next?

A: That's what I'm telling you, we di -- took our -- our -- not -- like -- not a truck, we had horse and wagons that time. With the horse and wagon and ah, two, three times they bringed over the furnitures and this way we moved.

Q: So when -- when did you move to Lodz?

A: To Lodz I moved, I was close -- was 18, because I went into the Gordonia, they didn't took me into Hitachdut. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Q: No, can you translate that?

A: There's a Zionist organization, Gordonia was still young, younger. After the Gordonia, we mov -- we were able to go into the Hitachdut. This was Ben-Gurion's organization.

Q: Had you been active in the Zionist organizations in the other towns?

A: Yes, very. Yeah, very. I was collecting money for [indecipherable] since I was 12 years old, until I got married I was very active, and working very hard in the Zionist organization.

Q: Were most of the young people also active?

A: Yes, very.

Q: What kind of activities did you do?

A: Everything. Let's see. Collecting money and va -- elections, I have to be honest with you, they -- we didn't [indecipherable] because we looked for Ben-Gurion, so I was three or four times to go in this place and this place to give a [indecipherable] you understand me? I have -- now I have to tell you the truth. And when Ben-Gurion came, this was, I think, in Tomaszow, so I was the girl what I was giving him [indecipherable] flowers. And he was wearing a ga -- I ha -- a light gray suit. Gray he was, but young, good, and good humor, laughing and joking. Yes, I

liked him that time, I liked him very much, Ben-Gurion. Yeah, we worked there, every night I had to go to the organization. We were enjoying dancing horahs, singing, yeah, and we enjoyed very much, yeah.

Q: All right, now you've mo-moved to Lodz, and did you live right in the town?

A: No. Lodz we had to look for our chipper -- not neighborhood because the neighborhood, my parents looked to have a nice one. We moved a little bit not out, but a little bit not in the middle of the city, to a modern house. We got a nice apartment, a little [indecipherable] in town. So I was young, so I was walking the 10 - 15 minutes to come down to the town, yeah. And we need - - we looked a little bit for better air for my father too. In -- in the city the air wasn't so nice and clean. In this place when we were on -- were -- rented the place, was a little bit better for my father, the air.

Q: What year did you move to Lodz?

A: To Ledz, [indecipherable] town, yeah. Abou -- I think about sevente -- 16 years old.

Q: So y -- 19 --

A: Yeah, because [indecipherable] I was in Gordonia, later I came to Hitachdut.

Q: So this was 1936?

A: Yeah, yes.

Q: Okay, and any special experiences th -- at -- at that time? Did you notice any change? Did you see --

A: Change? Yeah, I was lonely for my friends from Tomasz6w Mazowiecki til I got used, when I worked into the Gordonia til I make friends. And later I worked into the Hitachdut. I met over there my husband and other friends and we spend together nicely every night and we got little

parties too, and we were traveling -- how you say moshevar? I don't know how to explain to you. Management from the organizations, they rented villages and they came out for two, three days to get at -- but not me, because my father didn't allow this. So I walked out only Sunday.

When they left, they went on Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And I couldn't say to my father, I going to go with the yingeneh with the [indecipherable] do you understand your Yiddish? So I was afraid to say anything, so I and my friend, she's now in Sweden, we took the streetcar, we went out to the moshevar to meet him. I was very jealous because I saw how the girls and boys are together. And it's obvious -- I spend with them a few hours and everybody went home, I went home with them together.

Q: Were -- did you go to school in Lodz?

A: In Lodz, yeah, nights.

Q: What did you study?

A: I start high school. A little Hebrew, a little this and a little this, yes.

Q: It was a Jewish high school?

A: I think was Gentile, too, Gentile people too, but I didn't associate with them because I didn't got too much time, because I got other plans, so I came only to school -- to school, to finish up this, what I had to do, and I went home. I-I -- I got the most Jews around me there, yeah.

Q: Did you notice any changes in the atmosphere, any -- did you sense any difference in --

A: Yes, yes. The smaller cities, the people were closer to each other, more friendly. I told you, like relatives. If something happened to a family, what happened to me -- and then Lodz is like here, like New York, everybody was busy, everybody was rushing. In Poland the Jews were religious, they got childrens how much God -- God gave them, 12 - 13, eight, 10. Eight was --

was less -- was a small amount. So the people got busy, they didn't got time to associate too much with each other.

Q: Did you notice any rise in anti-Semitism in 1937 or 1938?

A: Sure, sure --

Q: Can you tell us please --

A: -- til the wartime was terrible, more and more. If you walked in the street, Moishe [indecipherable] religious, we had to say Moishe sheveko -- not Jewish, Moishe sheveko, Moishe. So they knew Jewish, so they following you, and Moishe, Moishe, Moishe, Moses, Rebecca. Sure, it was terrible. Nardone got killed in [indecipherable]

Q: Anything happen to you yourself? Any experiences to you?

A: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, I walked away. I was afraid to walk late. I was afraid if I went home, because I got to walk a little bit home, so I went to -- by streetcar, walking I was afraid.

First of all the Polish people dri -- was bombs -- drinks. Maybe they wasn't a big anti-Semitic, but like -- like murders, they liked to kill, so I was afraid, so I didn't walk and my father didn't allowed us to come late, so I was a little protected from it.

Q: Did you know what was happening in other countries at that time?

A: Sure.

Q: How did you know?

A: I was reading papers.

Q: The newspaper.

A: Sure. And we got lit -- we got radios too. They didn't gave everything out, but little by little we know what's going on, yeah. Wasn't like today, everything is open, you can read, you can

write.

Q: And then in 1937 - "38, anything special?

A: Yes, my sister, the youngest, sa -- she was a very intelligent girl, a beautiful girl, and we -- my father died.

Q: What year did he die?

A: What year -- I think nine -- "37. 1937, yeah. So she wrote a letter to Pilsudski and she received a -- a answer. And they send in from the [indecipherable] and he -- she was asking for a job, because she finished high school. She asked for a job, and if I said Moishe sheveko, they told me, I will send for you, but they never send. So we couldn't find a job. So she wrote a letter to Pilsudski. Pilsudski was that time -- [indecipherable] I thi -- yeah. Pilsudski was very good to us. So a man came in and he saw the whole situation and he promised to give us a job, but he never gave. In the meantime, the war bro -- 1939, the war start, and we have to move into the ghetto. And my younger sister was still tutoring to help my mother to raise the childrens. I got married.

Q: All right, well let -- let's back up a little bit. When did you get married?

A: When I got married? 19 -- 1928 ahi -- no, no, I got married two or three months before my father died.

Q: Did you have a wedding at home?

A: A beautiful wedding my older brother made.

Q: And who was your husband?

A: He went to Russia, he never came back. This husband that I met, he was a friend from the organization.

Q: Was he your age?

A: Th-The first? No, was older, tha -- by a few years. This husband is the same age. God bless him.

End of Tape One, Side A Beginning Tape One, Side B

A: My husband Nathan went to Hasharah, because my father wouldn't allow me to go to Hasharah [indecipherable]. I don't remember -- my husband said I promised him if he will have a [indecipherable] I will go with him to Israel. But I think he said the truth, because if not he wouldn't go because he left his parents. He was supporting his parents. They lived in a nicer neighborhood, in a nicer place, and he support his parents, and he left his parents and went to Hasharah.

Q: What was his name, your husband's name?

A: Nathan Kalman. This is my husband.

Q: Oh --

A: Yeah, he went for Hasharah. That time I wasn't married, but in the meantime --

Q: You -- no, your first husband's name.

A: -- I was a b -- I was a businesswoman and he was on Hasharah, I met a rich man. And I fell in love and I forgot from Nathan Kalman, and I got married with this man. The war -- so I got friends and he got the lumberyard. So I asked him if they will take little money what I have for interest. He said yes, but you have to learn a little bit to count wood to help us in the -- in the lumberyard, cause we got Germans in Poland and only Germans, they are build houses and from them we make the living. So he didn't steal from them. If he came with a plan from the engineer,

so we gave him a little less than the engineer marked, but we didn't took the money for it because in the other side a Gentile got the same lumberyard and if we wouldn't give him cheaper, he wouldn't come to us. So then I came to my friends who told me, we need somebody to help us. So I went for three months to them, because this is another town Woot is another town, and I helped them. So when the war start we got afraid. The Germans [indecipherable] a- asked th-th-the materials, they came right away. So my husband went with them to Russia. If not to ga -- would got killed anyway. They didn't came -- not one came back, or they died there or they killed them, who knows?

Q: What was your first husband's name?

A: Rosenthal.

Q: And his first name?

A: Aron. Aron, yeah.

Q: Okay, let's talk now about the beginning of the war, do you remember the very beginning and

A: Everything I remember.

Q: Can you describe --

A: A Friday --

Q: -- exactly what happened?

A: A Friday in the morning I was washing the floor and I heard like noise. This place when -- where we lived was close from a highway. I opened the door, I saw horses, wagons, soldiers, and I wasn't afraid. I stood in the door and I looked. They were all passing, and I was standing and looking. But they didn't anything to us, nothing. For hours they walked and walked and walked

and walked. So I got tired, I walked into the house. My mother lived across the street. She came over and she said, you know, I am afraid to stay here. Let's go to my youngest sister's in-laws, they live more the Jews together, let's go to them. What the Jews gonna do? We will be between them. So I said, that's a good idea, but let's wait for a few days, let's take a little bit with us, we can walk out like this. I got a small baby.

Q: You had a baby by then?

A: Yes.

Q: When was your baby born?

A: My baby was born deg39 -- 39, January 25".

Q: What was your baby's name?

A: Yankov, after my father. And so --

Q: Did you wait a few days?

A: Yes, and I got the radio in the door and I heard in the radio Alexandria was a special place for the [indecipherable] Hassidim, they got [indecipherable] there. So I heard on the radio Alexandria is to -- lost -- how you saying, they -- they chased them out from over there. So I opened the door and I looked, I saw Jews. Womens childrens, with packages -- not like today, suitcases, packages. I stood and I stopped one and I said, what's going on? She said, don't you know? They chased us out from the city. They had to leave everything, only what I had behi -- be -- be -- close to the hand, that stuff I took. And we don't know where we are going. I was thinking maybe the people don't know what they talking, but how to believe? So I got a neighbor in the same house. He was a educated man and he read the papers, listened to the news. I said, Mr. Shejak, come out, take a look. He was in the back. Take a look what's going on outside. He

came out with his wife, with his two sons. He stopped one man, he stopped another man, he stopped a third man. He said, it's no good. They have to leave. So I walked over to my mother and I said to mama, you know what's going on? Alexandria, the Jews from Alexandria are moving out, they can't stay any longer there. So she said okay, let's go. Yeah, in the meantime, we heard airplanes. I didn't saw the bombs, but people said they throwed down either a bomb or two, but I didn't hear it and I didn't saw it. So I took th-th-the important things and we went to mine si -- younger sister's in-laws. And we stood there. Over there we heard bombs and they had shooting, they had [indecipherable], we had everything. But a few days when the Germans settled in Lodz was a little quiet so we went back home. On way, on two days, they hanged 10 Jews. This was in a cheaper neighborhood, but the most poor Jews lived this -- in this neighborhood. And the Jews was the most religious, and a few rich. So the 10 Jews hanged a few days to show the Jews in Lodz what's going to happen. So that time was time to run out to -- to Russia, and I was the one, but I said to my whole family, even to my older brother, I still have a few dollars. From the bank I couldn't take out, but was a Gentile family, I don't know if they were anti-Semitic or not, they dealed with Jews to make a dollar. So she said, I can go into the bank. Give me the book and I will bring. I think she bringed a little bit, how much she took for herself, I don't know. She gave me a few dollars, that I remember like now.

A2: Zlotys.

A: Zlotys, yeah. So I said to my mother and to my brother, let's take a little bit [indecipherable] possibly, and let's go to Russia. So my mother said, the childrens wouldn't say kaddish after [indecipherable] and I don't want to eat treif and I don't want to go to Russia. So I got a small baby by myself, I couldn't go. I should, I was able, but I was staying with the family. So later,

my youngest sister went to see Russia. So she was with a very nice Gentile man, and she was -- she was pregnant the time. And she was laying by the border a few days and she came back and she said to me, Chanka, forget about Russia, you don't know what's going on over there. The Germans are staying there too, and they're [indecipherable] together with the anti-Semitishi Polacks and they're beating the Jews to death, they're taking away everything. I said to her, let them take away everything, but let's come alive to Russia. We are gonna build up a little bit and we will be alive. But she said I'm not going any more. She got the baby in the ghetto, was terrible. I was working in the [indecipherable] do you know what's on there? This was the educated boys, they stepped in in the police and you were working for the SS. They knew the -- which places to show them to take out the leftover -- th-th-the -- everything from the Jews, so they ma -- they built up our beautiful can-cantina and the SS came down t-to eat and they -- some they came to eat, was outside a 200 girl -- womens -- girls, because they need workers and I was standing in the line. I don't know if this is from God, or this was luck, or my father, they picked me and I worked in the canteen.

Q: So when did you go into the ghetto?

A: To the ghetto, 1940. 1940. The ghetto was closed 1940. From the beginning I was doing business, I bought cheese for my dau -- for my sister's in-laws and I bring them in. I have a block to [indecipherable] to make only sweet stuff. So how much I asked, for the cheese, he gave me. So I was thinking, tomorrow I [indecipherable] ask double. So tomorrow I came, was no more cheese, was closed the ghetto and that's all.

Q: What was it -- can you describe in the beginning the ghetto, what -- what your living conditions were like, who were you living with, how much room did you have?

A: A room. You got one room for a whole family. So my mother was with three childrens, I was with the baby, my sister with her husband with a baby, my brother with the wife with a baby. But this was a big room, we managed. We were together. Later, my yo -- my younger brother saw it's not good, we gonna die anyway, from starvation. So he signed himself to go to work. So his wife went over to her mother, while my brother went to Poznan. This was the worst place what they killed the Jews there.

Q: Wh-Which brother was this?

A: This was Moishe, the third one. So Moishe wrote us a letter. He said, I [indecipherable] you know Koplevich. This was a neighbor, a good friend. In the war, people what they maked the nice living, but in the wartime we got mixed up, we didn't know what to do, so she sent with her husband back to Tomaszow Mazowiecki with -- with the merchandise, with -- with the clothes, with everything. So he died there with the clothes, and we died here they didn't got clothes, so he -- th-th-the boy was starving, so he signed his name to go to -- to go to Poznan. So over there he died, and my bur -- my brother buried him. So my brother got luck. A German girl falled in love with him -- he was a very religious boy, but he changed later. She brought him back to ghetto. But in the ghetto was a place what nobody was able to go in, only Rimkowsky with the police, with the SS. She brought him into this place. She walked over to Rimkowsky, she said, I want you to give him a good job. And don't send him out. And he gave him a good job and he helped us a little bit, yes. But anyway, the ghetto liquidate, he went with his wife and the child, they didn't came back.

Q: Okay, we're at 1940 --

A: This was 19 -- 1945 and the ghetto liquidated --

Q: No, no, no --

A: -- no, ni -- 1944,

Q: Yeah. But le-let's -- let's move back a little bit that you -- you began in the ghetto, you were all living together.

A: Oh, it was terrible, the ghetto was terrible, terrible.

Q: What about the food situation?

A: That's what I'm telling you. I worked in the canteen.

Q: Right.

A: [helped a little bit.

Q: What did you do?

A: 1-- I -- we got frozen potatoes, so I said to my brother-in-law, to my sister's husband, you stay by the window and you watch. If nobody's ga -- walking around, and I will prepare a sack with a little bit potatoes and I will give you up from the window, because this is anyway going to the garbage. I did. So my mother was grounding this on a grounder and making a soup from it, so they got something to eat. Later they liquidate the canteen, so he gave me -- the manager from the canteen was a very nice man. So he said Chanka, I gonna give you a good place, you gonna go into our kitchen. And he gave me a good kitchen [indecipherable] over there to most -- to bringed in -- the planes came into [indecipherable] and the mans was emptying the trains and a little bit poor workers three-quarter dead people came for the soup there too, and I worked there.

And that time they brought from Germany, from [indecipherable] from Czechoslovakia, from -- the most from Germany, Czechoslovakia -- we got someplace else? No, Germany, ch- Czechoslovakia, they brought in the Jews, naked, barefoot and the German Jews wasn't used to a

life like we got in Poland. They got all convenience, they got beautiful life. I was there and I saw. What can I tell you? I got sick from seeing the way like they were dying like flies.

Q: This was in the ghetto?

A: In the ghetto. They wasn't used to go outside to the bathroom, they got inside. And Poland was very cold because this is very close to Russia, 24 hours from the Russia border. So I was watching a couple, they were standing outside and they got a little bit hot water in a thermos, and they got cold hand, they were -- so his pants was on the floor, he wasn't able to pick up her pa -- underwear, so I said, I will -- gonna walk out and I will see to -- what I can do to get -- I walked out. The man was dying in -- in -- in -- in -- so I pulled up the pants. I told him, hold the pants and walk into the place because they gave them little rooms from the Polish people. And to her, I helped her pick up th-the pants. Almost -- she didn't drop that, but I wasn't able to -- to carry them. And my job was to give them three times a day, soups. So believe me, I'm not making my name nice, or myself nice. I put in in each soup a hamburger. We had to make for them a hamburger, but I put in another one. They blessed me. I was afraid, I told them, go, go. Go, don't bless me, now go, go, because I was afraid the manager will hear. But he found out, but he did nothing to me, anything. I don't know what happened to him, they took him out with his wife.

He was [indecipherable] Rabinovich, he was a nice man. And he didn't tell me anything, he saw what I'm doing. So I worked on [indecipherable] a few months. So my sister got a friend, the mother and the father, I don't know if they died, or they killed them, so the two girls were left in the house and they were starving, cold. The water was freezing in the houses. I got frozen water in my house, too. My little boy was laying in bed, locked it outside, the lock and I put a coloring book on a -- a tray, but his -- [indecipherable] was so --

Q: Cold?

A: [sobbing] was running. And I told him, I said, Yankovek, if somebody will knock in the door, don't answer. He was so smart, he was so afraid. He didn't answer it. But the doctor, I told him for I'm putting the key because he got a little hole in the right side in the lung. So the doctor came, he took the key, he opened him -- examined him, and he said to -- he said, Yankovek, don't eat up your mother's bread, because your mother's gonna die and who is gonna take care of you? Because he couldn't eat his soups because he was sick, so I gave him my piece of bread.

But from that time on he didn't want it. He said, Mama, I am afraid, I don't want it. I said Yankovek, I have food, I'm eating. I'm eating carrots, I'm eating vegetables, I'm eating. Well, to make short the story I -- the canteen got closed, the kitchens, they maked a little less, we got a -- a little more so [indecipherable] how it was [indecipherable] yeah, they start to send out from Lodz, the ghetto, the people. So every day we got less at work. One time I looked down and I'm by myself. But I had to prepare the potatoes for tomorrow. And I took out the pails from the potatoes to the garbage. I saw a man is walking down, but I wasn't afraid because the light was - - wasn't [indecipherable] anyway. So I don't think -- I wasn't thinking if it's a Jew or [indecipherable] a Gentile, or nothing. I did my work and I closed the door. And I was wearing wooden shoes and a scarf over my head and a black coat what I got for my wedding. And I had to pass the cemetery. Today if you would give me the whole world money, I wouldn't walk on a cemetery, but that time I was so careful because was costas, you know, like -- like growing hard [indecipherable] like little peas. So [indecipherable] so I [indecipherable] touched my coat. So I was afraid [indecipherable] so I took my coat like this and this way I walked, so nothing touched me, and I came out to the road and I came home. My mother was sitting and saying

[indecipherable]. We -- we got a [indecipherable] from [indecipherable] this was a very big [indecipherable] I wer -- this wasn't -- he lees -- lived in Tredia. We were on his grave. They lived in -- 21 year in Israel and she was praying for me to come home to the baby. So I came home, I bringed with me a little bit. I'd bring with me a little bit. If they would catch me, they would give me right away to the Germans, but I wasn't thinking of anything. I bring -- I got in that dress a pocket in here, a pocket in here, so I got the -- a little meatball in here, a little meatball in here, something else, maybe two. So I gave my mother and I gave a half to my sister's boy, little boy and to mine. Later, they liquidate over there, too. So, if I walked out to work, I wasn't sure if I will come back because they -- how you say [indecipherable] so if -- they was looking for people. So they hop from the street, so I never was sure if I will come back. But I don't know, maybe because I was good to my parents, I came home. One time was [indecipherable] loss, only police and firemens, high officials with the wives, they could stay. So I got a neighbor on the first floor-- not educated people, they didn't know an-any Yiddishkeit, and we were friends with them. Her husband was a fireman. Well she -- and I got -- received a letter to come with my little baby out from -- from Ledz to death. In the meantime, she came up and she said, Chanka, will you do me a favor? My husband is very sick. I think he has pneumonia, I can't leave him alone. Go to the matzos -- they are -- they were baking matzos, so only the police and the firemens need to go to the matzos. So I came there on Dunkelman, not on my name, on her name. And he came to look. A man -- he became a policeman and he was our neighbor and he showed me a list, he said, I would like to break my -- my legs. I have to go to take a few womens with childrens. I saw my name, but I didn't told him anything. So I was walking with this [indecipherable] because he was a policeman. And her -- her father was -- they

lived upstairs [indecipherable] bring down their sick father, they throw them into the wagon.

And we were staying back in -- baking the matzos. But later we got afraid they gonna take us too. So we walked out and I walked into -- excuse me, a toilet and -- and this was in the winter, it was very cold, and this was frozen. And I looked in, was dark, and I was staying on that, but I feel something in the back, but tot -- I didn't touch it, I didn't get -- I was staying til was a little bit -- I hear th-th -- th-th-the [indecipherable] and I was staying there til [indecipherable]. And I maked up with my sister, if the window will be open a little bit, I can come in. If the window wouldn't be open, I can't -- shouldn't come in. So a policeman came in to take me. So the janitor didn't saw me and a neighbor was taking in my little boy to hide him. So he was sure I am gone.

So he said no, this woman with the baby is gone. So they walked away. But I came and my sister falled asleep and she forgot to open the window. So I was walking back. I came again, the window is closed. But I came again, the little window was open. And I came in [indecipherable] she kissed me, she hugged me. They took out Chaim, her husband, they took out everybody.

Thank God you are here. What's going to happen with us, what's happen together. I said listen, this is not [indecipherable] we have to something. She said, what can we do? To drink poison? I said the best thing would be. The best thing. But anyway, in the evening I went back to the place to bake the matzos under Dunkelman's name. So I met there a girl what her husband was a janitor. And on this place were doctors from Czechoslovakia and he maked a living from them because he bringed the -- the vegetables, the potatoes, the coals for them, and they paid him. So I told a lie, I said listen, I am living with my sister, with my brother-in-law and we can't get along and I would like to find a place to go to. She said, come over to my house. I have three beds. I'm lonely. So this girl took me in and I was sleeping with her a few days, but we both got in fight

and we both packed two sacks and they get -- and they went by themselves to that. And they got a good life because it got all the doctors from Czechoslovakia. They maked the living from them.

And she was working for the matzos. So I was alone in the house. They came into the house, they asked me for the people [indecipherable] I said they come later, later, but la -- I couldn't, I was afraid to stay there, so I went back to my sister. But I forgot the meantime to tell you. One time I went to work and I came home and I got only my little boy in the house. They took out my family. And my little boy, they left a piece of bread, maybe an inch and a half on the window. He was kissing the piece of bread not to eat, only to feel like the crumbs. So my little boy was two years old, he said Mama, don't eat up Laiva -- Laiva's bread, he will come back. He's hungry.

End of Tape One, Side B

Beginning Tape Two, Side A

A: So that time, they liquidate the ghetto.

Q: When was that, what month?

A: This is -- was 1944.

Q: What month?

A: A month. [indecipherable] Before they liquidate the ghetto, my brother Moishe worked in the [indecipherable] radio. This was the best job in ghetto, like with the police. He was very good to us. So, in the ghetto they put us in, in our house, downstairs was a movie. So on the roof was a little wall, and I got black material because we got afraid of the money, so we work materials. So I bought a material, was -- was on one side shiny, on the other side was -- this was an expensive material. So I there was putting in a few dollars in case we gonna go to work because we were thinking they're going to send us to work, so they will sell this to the Gentile people, we will have a piece of bread for us, for the childrens. So we took a pail of water, I got a bread, and my sister got a bread and we went up on the roof and we covered ourselves with the black ma -- mala -- material under the wall, and I said quietly, Yankovek, do you want a piece of bread? He was speaking Polish. He said, no Mama, I am afraid. We wouldn't have it tomorrow and the Germans gonna kill us. No more, be quiet, don't talk. So we were laying and I heard some noise on the steps. I was thinking they coming to take us, but Moishe came. And quietly he called us, and we heard Moishe. Moishe said, be quiet, you need bread, I have a kilo bread. I said, Moishe, we still have a bread. If you need the kilo bread -- no, he said, save the kilo bread, but don't go down because [indecipherable] now downstairs and catching the ch -- the childrens from all over. So we were still s-staying down the wall, til was quiet. My brother came and he told us we

can come into the house. So we came into the house, they put the childrens to the beds. We have ourself are tired, frozen, cold, okay. A-And to work -- no, no more work. We were waiting for Moishe to come to tell us what to do. But all night Moishe didn't came. Another night Moishe came in the dark and he said, maybe for tonight you should go up again on the roof, because it's not clear. We don't know what -- what's going to happen, maybe they gonna take us, we don't know. So we went up again on the roof, house was quiet, nothing happened. So in the morning very early he came and he said, bring down the childrens, put them to bed. So we went -- yeah.

So mine sister went into the [indecipherable] and he gave her all the breads for my mother with the childrens, because they didn't got -- close the carts. They didn't -- they didn't got the time to close off first everybody. So she brought up four breads, I don't remember, or five breads, a little bit flour, a little bit this, a little bit this. So we said to each other, now we are eating up our brother, sister and our mother. But not long was taking, a few days and we had to leave the ghetto. We were -- they sent us over to the other side. So we walked into my s -- sister's in-laws.

Q: What month was this?

A: This was 1945, in August -- A2: 744,

A: Four -- deg44, in August. Over there we were sitting a few days. Came in a gentleman to look at this place because they had saved 800 people to stay in the ghetto. So my sister was asking him a favor, to let us stay in the basement. So he walked out because he was afraid and he didn't tell us, I think he didn't answer, he walked out, that's all. Later came in a policeman, but not -- not to take us, to talk with us because he saw he is in dangerous position too. He said, you know, I had very bad news. They sending us to a place where over there they're gonna kill our childrens first,

our parents and later they're gonna kill us. But we had to go by ourselves with our childrens to the trains and to go to Auschwitz. But my little boy was feeling he is going to die, because he loved me and I gave away a bread for our can of conserviate meat. Do you know what I mean conserviate? This was lot like sardines, let's say, meat. So I said, Yankovek, I would like to give you a piece of bread with meat. No, Mama, I can't eat. He couldn't eat and he didn't eat. So we were on trains from cattles. No windows, nothing. Now that you couldn't breathe.

Q: This is you and your son, and --

A: My little boy, my sister with her little boy, and people from the ghetto.

Q: But that was the only family members you were with?

A: No, no, no, no. We got on -- I got left with my sister and my little boy and her, we both, but with the people from the ghetto. This was -- this I never forget, our sister and our brother, they were so touched to each other. She cried the whole way, he died in the train. What happened to this little girl, I don't know. Was so crowded we couldn't breathe, we couldn't move, nothing.

Finally we came out to Auschwitz the middle of the night.

Q: How -- do you know how many days you were on -- on trains?

A: On th-the -- the train was going a day and a night, half a night, yeah, it came in.

Q: Did they give you any food?

A: Ah, food. I'm telling you they pushed us in to die there because wasn't able to breathe, my little boy couldn't breathe. I was pushing a little bit the people away, it was a selfish, to make a little bit air pocket [indecipherable] little boys. So when the opened the wagons to come out, Jewish people -- Jewish mens worked us. They called them -- how the name was? How -- A2: [indecipherable]

A: Ah, [indecipherable]. They were -- now, when I'm thinking over, I'm not mad at them because they were -- they saw the dead for the eyes and they knew we are going to that, so they took away all everything from us to save a little bit for them. They got girlfriends there, they were suffering, but living, but we were expecting the same thing. So they took away everything from me, and I stood with my [indecipherable] with my sister, so I got the ring, the wedding ring, I got afraid, I throw it away, because they were beating to death. I got, I think, five sterling pounds [indecipherable] but I got my wedding, I was saving. I throw this away. My father gave us each 20 dollars gold. We throw this away. So meantime we were staying and thinking with my sister, what to do. I saw [indecipherable] here, came in, came close to us, a good looking woman, not too old, in her late 50's. And she said to us, take me for your mother. I will watch your childrens. Maybe you'll get sent you to work, I will take care on your childrens and we will be a family. And my sister and I said okay. So this woman stood with us. Later came to us the mans from the trains and he said, give the two childrens to the lady, you come with me. So the lady took the two little boys by the hands, and I said to my little boy, Yankovek, I will come to see you. He said, I still have the voice in my ears, Mama, you never came to me. You afraid for the Germans. I said, Yankovek, I will come. I will break iron. I will come to see you. I never came. I never see him no more. So this man put us to young people what he send to work. This was a little bit a mensch. So he was thinking he can save us. So he put us -- but I cut my hair, they cut off [indecipherable] hair. I don't know how it was, somebody came over and he cut off my hair. And my sister didn't recognize me so she start to scream, who has my sister. They said your sister is standing by you. No, this [indecipherable] I said, and now you're crying about hair? I don't care how I look. So I took off my coat, I throw it away because the coat got full.

And I was staying. And I met a teacher, but I got a night school with her, Socha, such a nice lady. So she said, we will be together. I said, Socha, I am happy. I am so happy I am thankful to God to be with you together with my sister. And we stood together and came a lady close to us and she called us the names, but I didn't recognize her. And this was our cousin [indecipherable] yeah, she didn't got the baby. In ghetto she got the baby. So she sent her mother with the baby she got -- they got a big store, they got good pinozo. And she was a educated woman too. So she sent her mother to Piotrkew Trybunalski. Over there wasn't the Third Reich, so she was thinking with the money her mother will save the baby, she's a young woman, she will go to work. So she said to me and my sister, can I be with you together? I said, it's a honor. I am happy you saw us, because I wouldn't recognize you. You put us dresses I can tell you s -- years, and I wouldn't never get through. Dresses, long to the ground, big like this, no hair. We looked like -- like he called us, Jerusalem putin. So in a few minutes, not long, Mengele came with the -- how the name from her? I'm forgetting. She was the worst woman I -- I -- Mengele with his helper, I will remind my name. He was wearing white gloves to here, not deep, short gloves. He got a little stick in his fingers and he turned around like this, we had to take off the dresses, naked. He looked over the body, if we don't have anything on the body. It was two sides, he said -- sec -- how you saying, selected -- sele -- one on this side, and one on this side. So me and my sister maked up we don't care, but let's go together. So my sister went to one side and I went to the other side. But I was that time still with my mind. When he turned with the back [indecipherable] I moved and I was by my sister. But this cousin got afraid, so she was over there. And the -- Socha, when I tried to move, I said Socha, do. So she did the same thing and she went over with us. So we are together. I says, and now I don't care. If we gonna go to the gas chambers let's go

together. If we're gonna go to work, let's go together. But this cousin, I never forget what she told me. She knew she is going to the gas chambers, but she couldn't make. So they took us to take a shower and they took them to the same place, but the other group they pushed in in a place that was glass windows. So they saw it's no good, so they breaked up the door. So they pushed in more people what they got to go to work. So my sister was so smart, she said, Hannah come closer here [speaks Polish here]. So we went all the [indecipherable] my sister a -- a little bit farther, but I saw that was going on. So they locked the door, we didn't saw them any more. Us they put in in cold water, and in the water was charko, this is the name in Polish. But this was a chemical, charko. The smell was like from matches, when you lighting a match.

Q: Sulfur, like sulfur.

A: Yeah. So they gave us a bath there and they gave us again dresses, again big -- I don't know, one's got a dress til here, naked the bottom. I got a dress til [indecipherable]. They gave me a pair of shoes, I'm suffering still to-today. Hollander -- do you know from Hollander shoes, what they harm is about? They gave me --

Q: [indecipherable] the clogs --

A: But they wasn't too big, so -- and I was walking in them. So I have til today, sick my -- my -- my feet. So they took us on place, again a -- a bath -- again a shower, again a shower, agai -- maybe 10 showers in one day. Every minute out the dress, everyone out the dress. This was Mengele and Erma -- Erma, I never forget her. So the last moment, they gave us a cup of soup, they put in five, like this, not like this. Like a line. So the first girl took the pot. The pot maybe was about two quarts, or two and a half a quart. So my sister said Hannah [speaks Polish] run and take a little soup from the -- but I was waiting til she's gonna share. But the other one

catched, the other one -- so my daughter -- my sister said, Hannah, I can't catch for me and you, I gonna catch for myself, catch too. But when I runned over, I had to clean with my hand the rest, that's what I got. So I said to my sister, listen, if we gonna stay in Auschwitz a few days longer, we gonna drop dead here anyway. Let's stay in a group from young people, and we will see what's gonna happen. She said that's an idea. And so she went with us. We stood in the group, they murdered us again with baths, again with showers, again with baths, til they bringed us a kilo bread, a piece of bologna and a piece of margarine. So my sister said, now Hannah, we are going to walk, and SS mens walked with us about 20 minutes, and I walked in the shoes. And I saw trains [indecipherable] and I was okay, but I don't know maybe the di-di-di -- they bring us that -- to other gas chambers, let's be a train. But the c-cattle trains. They pushed us in. We ate up the bread and on the -- with the [indecipherable] with the margarine. They put in a pail in case, excuse me, for the need. And a SS man was sitting in each [indecipherable] watching us, but when he walked out, he locked us outside. But anyway, we didn't got anything to do. We didn't ate, we didn't drink, we didn't have nothing to do. So he was coming back in an hour, he ate something [indecipherable] he came in, he was sitting in wa -- but I -- thirsty I was. So we got very little windows like in here, but more buts -- pardon me, smaller. So was raining, I sticked out the tongue and I -- I got a few drops rain. So girls behind me were pulling my short little hair, but I didn't pull, I don't care, I am not going away til I dra -- have to get a few drops of water. Okay, I was sitting, sleeping, sitting, we were traveling a few days, maybe a week with no food, with no water, with nothing. We came to a place -- we came to a place, so he gave us striped dresses. He gave us straw sacks and straw to make like -- like mattresses.

Q: Mattress.

A: So I said to my sister, at least we will have where to lay down. But he was a murder. He start to beat -- t-to beat us up to that.

Q: Do you know the name of this place?

A: The place? Valdersluss, yes. So he showed us to be good, if not he is -- can -- is able to do the same thing what Auschwitz, va -- he was a murder, but they hanged him anyway, yeah. So he gave us two days not to go to work, so we furnished everything, like he said. He gave us underwear, like [indecipherable] you understand what I said to him? Like an undershirt, but longer a little bit, let's say to the knee. Later he gave us a band, like a brassiere, but no brassiere, so we were -- and --

Q: What was his name?

A: The -- the Lagerfiihrers?

Q: Yeah.

A: I don't know the name, no I -- I -- we didn't -- we didn't know a -- nobody didn't know the name. We got a Oberscharfiihrer, he was a little bit better, but he was afraid of the Lagerfithrer.

The Lagerfiihrer was a murder. The face, when you looked at his face, you was able to see the murderskeit. The Oberscharfiihrer -- and he wasn't -- he talked a [indecipherable] poli -- nice, he said, [indecipherable] it's gonna come a time you will be free. But when he was, he was s- screaming, cursing, calling bad names, yeah. He was a old man, the Oberscharfiihrer, he was in his 70's, but the Lagerfiihrer was a young -- ab-ab -- in his 40's -- 30's -- late 30's. So two days, two SS mens came and they put us in five, like this, in five, and he said -- he talked to us nice [indecipherable] like Germans. He said, and now we are going three kilmetre to the place what we going to start to walk. And behave yourself, I wouldn't beat you, only you have to walk.

Because the Lagerfiihrer will come to see. Okay, we walked -- yeah, in the morning he gave us like eight ounces bread with a coffee. The coffee was not coffee. Okay, so the bread yeah, and here we got the cabinets. Found a piece of -- of wire, a piece of string. So w-we put everything here and this was our cabinets. So we went to work. So the first time he told us to dig holes.

Later we found out this is going to be shelters. But the Lagerfiihrer came into ours and he didn't like we took small amounts on the shovel. He showed us to pick up a shovel full. If he would stay with us, nobody would be alive, but we got luck, he stood an hour, a half an hour and he left, so we go back to little bit, little bit. Okay. But was very cold. And I cried to myself. So Socha came over to me, she said, why you crying? I says, Socha, I am freezing. I don't care any more alive. She said, Hannah, my mother told me [speaks Polish here] Do you understand this?

The whole body will became like the nose. So she came two hours later and asked me, I said, still not [Polish]. But I became [Polish], yes. I worked in the cold winds, in the cold snows and the cold rains. My dress was never dry, all the time wet. I was sleeping in it to dry, but never dried. So we worked there, we got the soup, and we came home, we got the soup. He stood -- this he did wa -- right. Of course, the Jewish capos, they gave us the top, the water, for them they saved the bottom, th-the -- the [Polish] the -- the vegetables, or the [Polish]. But he stood so she had to mix. So I got a little potato, a little bit cabbage, a little bit [indecipherable] okay. But if he wasn't, then they [indecipherable] so we got water. So I worked in this place, in a salt mine, ina salt mine. I was digging out [indecipherable] from the water to full up iron wagons, the name was from the wagons [indecipherable]. This is like little trains, one was touched to the other, and they were on lines and -- yeah, lines. So I got five or six together and I had to full up all the six and to push them to the place. Later I kept over, yeah, and I had to come back. But I -- when we

came to work, right away he said [speaks foreign language here] and I have til today neuralge in my head, neuralge in my gums, neuralge in my ears, because the wind, the rain, all the time wet.

But over there I didn't suffered. I never got a headache, I never got a toothache. They pulled mine teeth there with -- with -- what's that st -- plines -- plienses. I didn't got blood poison, I didn't got anything, they put the camp, I think, six in the bottom for -- yeah. If the girls were screaming, he pulled more. So I was thinking, get away, it's no good, so I was holding like this, so he pulled only six and four, okay. What else we got. Yeah, later they took us to a salt mine.

This place was very dangerous. The man [indecipherable] was bringing us down with the elevator, was a man in his late 80's. He said, my God [indecipherable] 50 years here, I never bring down womens. God be with them. We came down, what can I tell you? That th-the [indecipherable] better for us than to -- okay, he came over with the lamp in the front, he showed us what to do. So he picked me to push up -- they got prepared in the daytime, I think [indecipherable] were prepared for us. So was -- the salt was cut in pieces, big pieces, smaller pieces. So sliding [indecipherable] was going up on electricity. But I had to go so fast, if not this piece what I moved first would come back and kill me. So I was a little bit with energy and I pulled fast up. But I had to stop a little bit, so that one time it got up but a watchma -- SS man, but he didn't pushed us so fast. But he watched us if he heard walking, because in the salt mine you heard walking because was quiet, he said [speaks foreign language here]. So when I heard, so I pushed up. To work a whole night, to push up pieces, about 10 - 15 pounds was vi -- I would -- I would drop dead. So I finished a night, thank God. We got wooden shoes, outside was snow.

The snow sticked to the -- to the wood, so we wouldn't able to walk sn -- nice. So the SS man beat up. If this one don't [indecipherable] I don't know how my husband is forcing me to keep

up kosher. I don't know. So when walked, the five, we walk -- we watched each other, because if one from the five was a little crooked, he beat up all the five. So we were holding us fast and thank God we made home [indecipherable]. But what I saw, I never forget. But -- but I don't know what kind people, the Germans were educated people, high educated people, how they can do this, to kill people alive with kicking. So I working in salts mine a few days. Another day they gave me something else, another day he gave me something else, but we had to take off the dresses, was very hot. But water we bring with us because the salt was making thirsty, but no food. In the nighttime no, but in the morning when we came we got our soup with the piece of bread and he told us to go to bed, to sleep. But I saw the salt mine is not good either. So I was a businesswoman. I put in a few piece of salt in my -- in mine cabinet, and I was thinking with my sister we gonna change salt for something else because we didn't got salt there. So "da-- a cousin from mine sister's husband came over and she said, do you have salt? I said yes. She said, Ihave a few customers, they working in the kitchen. I will bring you bread. [indecipherable] took out the whole -- the whole how you say [Polish] and I gave her. Til today she isn't showing up. If she is alive, let her be alive, I don't care. Okay. Later they took us [indecipherable] was very hard. Again li -- to put the full up the [speaks Polish] A2: The lorries.

A: The lorries. So dirt, not from the water, dirt, stones, and we -- I wa-was full of -- got five, six, and they told me what, to push them and to empty them and come back. So I worked with my sister, and my sister, she was looking only for news. Then she saw -- then she saw a man, she stopped him and she asked him, do you think we will come out from here? The one man said to us, yes, but fight. I said, what do you mean fight? From where can -- where can I take food to

eat? Grass, was grass. I would eat grass, was grass. So this man got a friend, so my sister talked to one and I talked to other one. A few days later I met one, I said, where is your friend? He's gone. A few days later this other one didn't came, so we didn't got to ask anybody, okay. But the man what he walked [indecipherable] with us, he was not dead. He said [speaks Polish] to take a break, a few minutes. He said, I don't care if [indecipherable] you Lagerfiihrer. If he will come, I will talk to him.

End of Tape Two, Side A Beginning Tape Two, Side B

A: -- I will talk to him. But he didn't came. So later he told us, okay, go back to work. So we start again to fill up the dirt. Believe me, they didn't -- they didn't need the work, only to -- to murder us. Only to murder us, okay. One time they took me to another group. So this SS man was alone, if he -- if he wa -- if so -- if the SS was alone, was much better. If was two or three, was [indecipherable] one was showing off to the other he's taking better care. So he said one thing. I want you to be quiet. I will take you into a room. If you will stay in the room, I will watch outside if the Lagerfiihrer is coming. And he kept us a whole day in the room because raining and snowing and this was in the woods. And we had to -- to clean the woods, to pick up the little branches to put together. So we were sitting in the room a whole day til was dark, he took us home. Okay. And now, on the same place we came every day to work, so was many nations there. But other nations, they got better than we had. So we saw our clean -- came from - - from garbage, but clean, new. Was foo -- food. And we got in the back little cans from the meat, I don't know from where we took them. So everybody walked over and fi -- and I did, too.

Later they called the -- up Lagerfiihrer and they told him what we did, but he didn't -- he didn't

said anything to us. When we came home -- so my sister was very smart, she said mum -- Hannah don't stay in the first line and don't stay in the last line, so we will -- we will be able to see what they are doing with the first line. So who got the can, he was giving over the head, because he knew with the can -- so I was very fast, I throwed away the can. So he saw everybody was throwing away the cans, but anyway, he hit me, til today I have my ear damaged, but not bad. I'm -- I can hear, I'm not deaf. Okay. [phone ringing, tape break]. I'm ca -- taking a little mag -- from everything, because to sit, to talk from everything, you will sit with me two years, and no writer is able to write a book if he wasn't in there. In between the camps was [speaks Polish] a difference. Some camps got a little better, some camps got bitter like worse than death.

So a woman cut up a piece from the undershirt and she was making a band around the head. And this Lagerfihrer checked all the time after the laundry, the -- the underwear. So he saw a shirt cut off a piece. So when we came back from work he's -- he didn't let us in. So I saw and now is something going on. So I took mine towel, because I was freezing, I put on my towel, and I was afraid if he is going to check and see me with the towel, is he going to kill me? I was so fast, I throwed away the towel. [indecipherable] else did the same thing. But he is going to go into my room and he s -- will see I didn't got the towel, so he will find me, so he will say what I did. I did not right, but I -- I did too. So finally in a few minutes, he found the woman with the little piece on the hat. And he took it in and he let us in. So I looked -- I looked -- in one second I was in the house and I took from another bed a towel and I put on my bed the towel. So I took from an old woman, a very nice, intelligent woman, a old woman, I took the towel from her. So I said to her, listen, he would believe you, because you were -- you was in the kitchen, so don't cry. If somebody took, he will save -- he will try to save his life. She understood me. I took the t -- I

took the towel. So he gave I don't know how many with a rubber pipe on her two muscles, naked muscles. The cuts was deep more than a quarter of a inch. This woman was screaming a half a night, the rest of, I think she died. Because I tell you the truth, to go to look, I wasn't able. To help, I couldn't. So I was thinking, she's dying now, later I will die. I walked out of th -- and to work, I came back, she wasn't there. I think she died [indecipherable] throwed her to -- to -- to someplace and that's it, okay. This was one. And now Erma and Mengele took me to work. I was watching them very careful because I was afraid of the two murders. They got a shepherd, a German shepherd. He was trained like a SS man. They didn't told him anything, only they looked. He went to this woman what they looked. He didn't left her before he -- she was dead. In the most was Hungarian womens, because the Polish we were able to suffer, but not the Hungarians. The Hungarians got a little better than we got, not in the camp, before the war. With education, with life, with everything. They got a -- a better life than we got. So the whole time I heard screaming [indecipherable] the Polish people, they didn't cry, they didn't scream, only Shema Israel, and that's it. So with us was a little girl from 14 years. Up to the wall what he took me, I will explain to you, but I don't know how to say. In German the [indecipherable] we got branches with leaves, with wire and we was tying to each other and making a carpet to cover the roofs against the air raid. So this little girl was with us. So Erma took a piece of paper and she maked a little bag and she put in black whole peppers. She went to -- over to the little girl and she gave her peppers to eat. From the beginning the girl was crying Mamashi, Papashi, Bubbashi, Zeidashi, God. Later she throwed her down and she opened her little bag and pushed her into the mouth. And the little girl had to swallow this. Later she kicked her with her feet to the wall, and she tooked us out of this place to another place. Okay, what else? I -- I -- "m

telling you the -- the most things, because to tell you stories, we never get through, because I'm talking with my husband and I would -- don't believe in it. I said Nathan, this is true? This can happen? To be six wa -- weeks with no water and not to take a bath a whole year? This can be true? My husband said, I can't believe by myself, but I went through. Later -- yes. I was ina block, the col -- the -- the -- the -- the -- the rooms what we all -- blocks.

Q: How many people in a room?

A: A thousand. They pushed in how ma -- how many they put? We were laying like herring, pressed. In the nighttime the Ukrainians came in to take off that you wouldn't -- shoes too. So we were w-walking barefoot to [indecipherable] and the snow. Screamed? They would kill us.

So they -- to come in in the night and they took off the shoes from us. So over there was a girl from Czechoslovakia, her name was Pessella. Believe me, I didn't make my life a [indecipherable] I didn't, and I wouldn't be able to make. But if you would Pessella here and you would give me a knife, I would able to stay to [indecipherable] small pieces for months til she would die. Such a murder, with -- from the Germans you wouldn't able to find, never. She was beating us to death. So in the nighttime they took us out for say l'appel. Say l'appel they were counting us. Rain, snowing, we were staying hours til the SS man came to count us. So when the SS man came, she showed off. She said the [indecipherable]. You understand this? What are tibel?

A2: Devil.

A: The devil will kill us. He said [indecipherable] because he got mad, because she [indecipherable] us, you Jewish too. He said, [indecipherable] you too. So she closed her pisk.

So the SS man took us to work. So I was thinking with my sister not to go into this block any

more, because this was -- I -- I more than truly killed her. I more than truly. I never saw in my life such a murder. And she was fat. Big [indecipherable] they got everything. They got the mens, they got sex, they got everything there. Only th-the -- the -- the stubovas, blochovas, the [indecipherable] they make the life, they are, yes. They were making a life on our -- on our -- they were eating us up. They didn't gave us this ration what he gave us. The Pessella was [indecipherable]. Nice hair, no, but she was a murder, my God. How can be between Jews such a [indecipherable]? Okay, I more than sure they killed her. Hundred percent. Even she went back to Czechoslovakia, over there the -- killed her, because this was the worst blochova [indecipherable]. So I walked into another block. Was a lock -- they didn't recognized if you belonged here, you belonged there, only they count every time the -- yeah, numbers we had. So I walked in with my sister to another block. Not a -- a-all of them were good, but not like Pessella.

They were beating -- they got sticks from five, six meters and they're all giving over the heads like this and another one got the a -- a -- open head. But Pessella was the worst. So I was sitting with my dau -- with my daughter, God bless her til 120 -- with mine sister, my sister died in spring, after the war. We were [indecipherable] the 15th of April liberated and my sister got TB all over the body. So they took her to Sweden and she died June the 17", 1945, 27 years old. So that smart girl, how she worked for our parents. She was the best from all of us, from our parents. For each holiday I asked a coat, a dress, shoes, but not she. But what she did when I was outside, she put on -- she was very close to me, she put on my dress. And I walked in the street and I saw she's wearing my dress. Not in the street I wouldn't make nothing. When I came home, I start to fight with her. So my father said, do me a favor, take a few dollars and go outside, buy material and make for yourself a dress and a coat. You know what this girl did? She

took the few dollars, she bought for my father -- this was for special Hassidic people, a [indecipherable] summer -- summer coat, let's say and for my mother a coat and she got 80 cents left over, she bought Skombra. Skombra was the best sardines in our country, we got good sardines, better than we have here, from [indecipherable] the good. So this was 80 cents, so she bought for 80 cents father -- for my father the Skombras. This what she did for our parents and for our small, little boy. I didn't. I was working, I gave in the money, but all the time I asked, I need a dress, I need shoes, I need a coat and I got. But she never asked, never. But when she went out, she put a -- she put on mines. So I said, I can be the good one too. I am th-th-the -- the bad one because I am asking for clothes, we didn't got enough money. And you don't want it, you [indecipherable] you wearing mines. So we got a fight all over this, yes.

Q: Any other stories before liberation?

A: Before liberation? Oy, I will prepare, I will prepare more. I have so much. Sometimes when I'm not sleeping, I'm thinking over if this is true, if such educated, high educated people like the Germans, they were the first educated people. China was the first, but the modern country was Germany and they were able to do people like that. But one thing I will tell you when [indecipherable] when I was liberated, I wasn't able to walk, I was laying on the floor. So I was liberated by the British. So a soldier gave me a newspaper and I was so dumb, I didn't save this newpas -- newspaper. In the newspaper I read about 400 years ago, this same thing happened to Frankfurt am Main. They throwed out the childrens from the windows, they throwed out the furnitures from the windows. The -- the chambers in [indecipherable] you still able to see what they put in the Jews. So the -- th-the walls having openings. So in the wintertime they were freezing, they got typhoid, they got lice and they didn't got nothing to eat. So were two mens,

Adolf Stoecker was Hitler. Adolf Stoecker and who was the other one, Nathan?

A2: I don't know.

A: Ido rem -- remind myself. The other one was secretly going to rich friends and collecting money, three quarter from the population from Frankfurt am Main died, but the leftover, he took out from the chambers, you can see the chambers still today in Wiesbaum , this is very close to Frankfurt am Main, I was there, I saw it. And he gave each a little bit money and he told them to go to look to the apartments if they are empty, to go in and he helped them to go in a little business to build up again a life. Petmilch was the good one. Adolf Stoecker was Hitler, Petmilch was saving the rest, few Jews what they left -- were leftover from the get -- from the chambers, no gas chambers, only chambers they were laying with no food, with no a -- with no sanitary.

They died of typhus, they died from starvation. A few got leftover, so he took them out and he saved the few Jews, Petmilch. And I got the newspaper and why I didn't save the newspaper like this, but I was very sick, very sick.

Q: Tell us more about the liberation, the day of liberation.

A: Yes. They took us one time to carry stones.

Q: This is the British?

A: I was in Bergen-Belsen, and I was re -- by the British in Bergen-Belsen. Frankfurt was America, but Bergen-Belsen was the British. We didn't got so good after war by the British here, we didn't got enough wood. So we were carrying five bricks, three, four, five blocks.

Q: This is after liberation?

A: No, this was before the liberation. So some girls got weak. I got weak by myself. So they let down the bricks. You know what they did to them? They punished them, they had to put the --

the hand to -- in the back and to carry the bricks in the back. And if they wouldn't able to bring to the place the ba -- there, they punished them, I don't know them any more and I didn't -- I didn't see them any more. Okay, this is what. Later, they took me to dig trees. So I was digging trees with the woods. So I was very careful, the wood -- the -- the trees were batti -- 10 me- meters high, eight meters high, very high. So sometimes we got SS la -- SS men started -- helped a little bit. We got a big stick with a hook to put in the hook in the tree and to pull, but to make to fall [indecipherable] wood. But some of them were murders. They rushed you, so you forgot that the bu -- that the tree falls [indecipherable] and they -- they killed her. So I was careful, I was watching which way the tree is going, so I was standing on the other side. And I runned away and I left the stick with the hook in the tree. So one time he came over to me and he said, don't do this again. If not I will punish you. You must take out the hook before the tree is falling.

Okay. I said danke schoen [indecipherable] okay. Later, a few days later we got a nice little bit -- a -- nice trees were prepared and I didn't know they're burning over there the bodies [indecipherable] in Bergen-Belsen we didn't got gas chambers. But we were putting the trees like this. In the middle, we put in the dead bodies. So when I passed with the group to work, I saw mens working. So one was screaming Lodz [indecipherable]. So old man said Lodz, I said Lodz.

And he told me the name. This was one place what they got the nice ta -- beautiful s -- woolen sweaters. Very rich, modern Hassidic people. So I asked him if he is, and he said yes. When I passed back, he was dead. He worked so hard there, okay. So later, they piled up the dead people til -- til [indecipherable]. So they got me to bring the dead people closer. So they put in blankets -- [had to put in blankets, four girls. What I saw, I am falling. I -- I-I am fall. So I said to the three girls, listen. Listen, let's look around. If we will see nobody, run away. He is dead anyway.

So we left the dead body, we runned away. But where can I hide? Every day they were looking for -- fo-for the girls to carry the dead body to bring there to-to -- to the trees. So every time we did the same thing. How long we were able to -- how -- not to pick up on, to reach off -- yeah. So the -- the blanket got a hole, so he falled out, the dead. So we runned away again. We couldn't pick up the dead, we couldn't do anything, we runned away. But we got [indecipherable] after we did [indecipherable]. Later -- yeah, one time I saw a man with a little knife and he cut the muscle from the dead out. But I wasn't smart enough to think he's gonna eat ous -- this, or to cook, I don't know. Later I saw another one, he cut the belly, he took th -- a liver. At that time I wasn't afraid of the dead, I wasn't afraid of -- of anything, nothing was bothering me. Okay.

After we -- so, we got concentration Bergen-Belsen, a city Bergen-Belsen, a military camp Bergen-Belsen. So brought us over to the military camp. So at least we got showers. So one day was for the mens to shower, one day was for the womens and we got sinks to wash a little bit [indecipherable]. And, excuse me, I got diarrhea because I was running to the kitchen. And a English soldier gave me -- from a can, was very fat, cabbage with th -- with -- with fat, and I ate this and I shouldn't because I was in sad shape. So I got very, very bad diarrhea. And I was sitting in the woods and I took three breaks like this and I got a can [indecipherable] was like graham crackers. So ge -- ga -- ba -- he gave us in the morning for breakfast two crackers with a little bit chocolate cocoa, but I will tell you what the Jews did to the cocoa. The kitchens what they cooked the -- th-the cocoa for us, they didn't put in this what the English give them, they sold to the Germans for diamonds and for money. And for us they give a little bit water. The crackers, the two, they had to give us. Okay. We were marching, because we were starving, later they put out garbage cans, but clean ones, new ones, with meat, with noodles, what this was

staying a whole day outside, was mushy, but I didn't got [indecipherable] I ate. But our Jews, listen, it's not -- it's good to go to the synagogue, the Jews, not to eat from one plate, on a separate plate that nothing will take the bigger piece. The Jews make the [indecipherable] there.

Th-the -- the Jews, but they were still a little bit healthier, they walked into the kitchens to work, so they make money, they sold to the Germans. They took diamonds and gold and everything.

The rabbi from England, he took home a whole set with gold and diamonds. I wasn't afraid, when he came in, the doctor, I was very sick. So I got luck, a doctor from Holland, a very young man, he was in the army, he came in and he saw I have water a-all over my body.

Q: Where -- where was this now?

A: Bergen-Belsen.

Q: In the town of Bergen-Belsen?

A: In -- in -- in this -- not town --

Q: The military?

A: -- in boy -- in the military. So he said to me, I will bring pills for the water, but for the iron I don't have pills in here. So I said to him, the Germans runned out on the drugstores, so they emptied the drugstores [indecipherable] the rabbi -- the -- the -- the -- the -- the doctors go to the drugstores to take the leftover what they left. He looked at me and he didn't answer me. But he left a note for the blochova. Blochova was the leader from the -- from the house. She was still in good shape after they were talking about her too, but I don't know. She was from Pietkow -- a note to give to the rabbi from England. Kaplan was the rabbi, he was the army rabbi, to give me a white bread, to give me a little bit milk and a little bit meat. So the rabbi came to see me. See, he brought for me a piece of meat and a potato, a little bit soup, and he told me, he said listen,

this is kosher, this is teah, but no Shochet. I said to him, and now I don't care about anything, I would like to go out from bed. If I would be able to walk out from bed, I would help myself. So I -- the potato I ate, the soup I drank, but the meat was so dry and hard, like a rock. So I said, thank you, Rabbi, I can't even eat it. He said, I'm sorry, I don't have a grounder, I can't do anything more. Thank you. Okay. So the doctor came in and he ask me, I said, yes, the rabbi [indecipherable] me a meal, but a meal I can't eat because the meat is so hard and dry, I couldn't eat. So he left another note. This doctor sent home a prescription to his family -- the war was still going on [indecipherable] for iron pills, and he gave me iron pills what his family sent to him.

Q: Do you remember his name?

A: No, no. Hoita shtabi. Every day I said to him, Doctor, hoita shtabi. So I walked in the street when I got a little bit better, I still got what -- I still wa-was bit like this. So he walked with friends, he stopped me and he stopped the friends. He said to them, this lady said to me every day hoita shtabi. Take a look. Isn't she looking good? Okay. But this way I went to --

Q: What does that expression mean that you -- the hoita shtabi, what is --

A: Today I gonna die.

Q: Oh.

A: I met a girl and I met my brother's -- a friend and they were planning to go to Poland to see if we have left over something. I said, I will go with you, and I went and I was sick and we traveled two weeks. But, in each city we had to go to see, let's say like in there the [indecipherable] like the mayor. So we went in to the mayor and we asked him to give us food.

End of Tape Two, Side B

Beginning Tape Three, Side A

A: -- okay. So we went in to the mayor. We ask people where he is located, they told us, we went to him. He gave us food, bread, bologna or salami and -- and not butter, margarine. So we walked into a store to try to say [indecipherable] I don't have. So the man said, please go out. I gonna check that. So she was afraid, she was bringing more than t -- we got on the -- on -- on -- on the piece of paper. Okay. We finished this, we went to another city again to the -- the mayor.

So we got food to eat til Czechoslovakia. We came into Czechoslovakia, the police took us by the border. I saw people with yellow stars and I was like this, he said, don't worry. This is the people what they did to you. We put them the yellow stars and give [indecipherable] working, like you. Okay. So we asked them we would like to come into the city. He said no, you can't come into the city, you have to see a doctor before. So I got luck. They took me in to a doctor, but he came with a -- two days before from concentration camp. He saw I am sick and I told him Iam going to Poland. So I got the wooden shoes, but [indecipherable] so I got tight with wire.

Stockings I didn't got on. I don't know if this was his girlfriend or this was his wife, he told her to give me up her stockings, she brought up her stockings. He asked a policeman to go and bring me a pair shoes. He went, he brought the shoes. He told him bigger ones. Okay [indecipherable] mens shoes. And he told him to bring us to a place, to give us good -- prepare a good night's sleep and to give us something to eat. He didn't got nothing, only a few potatoes, I think. That's what he got, he gave us, and we slept good. In the morning we walked out from over there, because we were free, no policemen, the doctor said I am okay. So I saw a stand staying outside like in Europe with the vegetables on. So I wasn't able to -- first of all I didn't got the money. So I went over closer to look. So the [indecipherable] was such a good woman, she took from

everything and she put in mine bag, because I was making a bag from -- A2: [indecipherable]

A: [indecipherable] A blanket. I have to tell you, I -- I cut out a hole and I got the skirt. From the leftover I make the jacket. Believe me, the sleeve what should be at the top, I got on the bottom.

I wasn't a dressmaker. And from the leftover I was making a bag. I s -- had no money, because [indecipherable] in Polish is a little [indecipherable] okay. So we walked to a train -- we were walked in in a train and I walked into the train but this was a nice train. I walked into the train, I saw a good looking man was dressed in leather, a very short jacket, nice pants and he looked to me Yiddish, but I didn't said anything. The other one, I saw he is ous. And they were playing nice there, accordion nice, and singing nice. So this good looking gentleman asked us where we are going. Well, we told him we are from concentration camp, we would like to go to Poland, to Lodz to see if we will have somebody. So he came over very slowly and he said, I am [indecipherable]. [indecipherable] means Jewish. I said, are you a [indecipherable]? He said yes.

This man sent the other one to bring bread, food. He was sitting with us on the train til the train start to move. But he told us, I have now to go to Lodz for three weeks and I can give you my place and stay here because over there is a bread 400 doll -- zloty and you would starve there. I will do for you everything, you give me the names. But we didn't listen to him. So he gave me a few packs cigarettes, but the Russian cigarettes wasn't so expensive like the Americans. But anyway, a few cents I got. And he gave me, I don't remember, 400 zloty, I think I brought with me, he gave me. [indecipherable] came to Poland for two days enough, okay.

Q: You just want to finish?

A: You want finish this?

Q: Yeah.

A: Okay. So when I came to Poland with the girl, so a friend from the block -- from the block, from Bergen-Belsen gave me an address from her brother-in-law, but he was a very religious man, her f -- her father was a mohel. So when I came into this place -- so this place looked like this, mort with stones til the ceiling in the middle room. His bed was a iron bed but no legs, on s -- on bricks, covered he was with a black blanket. The pillow -- I can't tell you, I don't know what color the pillow got. But I saw a man [indecipherable] religious, what we gonna do here?

And so he said, don't worry. I am a baker. I am going away for the whole night. In the daytime you both can sleep here, and in the morning I will come and you -- I will give you [indecipherable] you will cook our soup and we will eat together. In the morning I opened my eyes, I saw the man is praying and two peyat with him, he wa -- is from the religious people.

And a full table with [indecipherable]. I didn't saw this for years. He said to us, ladies, you can close the door and get dressed and say [indecipherable] and come in and eat rolls. We did it. We ate a few rolls he gave us, I don't know how much money. We go -- went to the store, we bought barley, we bought [indecipherable] beans, potatoes and we came up, he got a big pot and we make a bu -- a big pot with soup. I think he got a little bit oil, too. And he was so happy with the -- with the -- with the soup, he blessed us. So in the daytime I was with her walking outside. So I walked and I saw a young man follows us, because after the war the po -- the Polish people killed the Jews what they came back from concentration camp. So I passed the other side. I saw he is passing too. I said, and now we are dead. I said, I don't want to walk no longer. I will stay and I will see what's -- what's going to happen. This boy came closer and he called in my name.

I forgot his name. I said, you was a yeshiva boy. How come this you are going and now wi-with

[indecipherable]? No Jews never did it. I said, I had to do it. He said Panya Chankel, do you know who is alive? Sarah Grosberg. This was his neighbor. And I came into my friend, so he saw me coming in. And he took me to my girlfriend. And I opened the door. She was [indecipherable]. And this boy was such a nice boy. He asked me if I have money. I said, I don't need money, no. He said, I -- I need something. I said no, I have two breads. And I forgot to tell you, this Russian told the Russian other one to give us enough bro -- bro -- bread, so I got two breads and I was afraid to touch the breads because he told me I will starve in then -- in Lodz.

And I told him I have two breads. He said, I am engaged and I will get married this week and I am going to Germany. He is leaving with his wife to Germany. He came out with his girlfriend and she brought a bag with cookies, with candies [indecipherable]. And he ask me again if I need money. I said no. I think he left something under the pillow, I think so, but I fa -- I can't -- forget. But my fr -- girlfriend said, do you know who wa -- who wa -- who is alive? I looked at her, I was thinking she is going to say something -- she said, Chaim. This was my brother-in-law.

And he has an apartment and she took me, she right away told her -- she [indecipherable] she was a good dr-dressmaker, she maked a lot of money. She said, I'm taking off the half a day and I will go with my friend. And she brought me into my si -- brother-in-law. A beautiful apartment, beautiful crystal the Germans left there. [indecipherable] said thank God, I -- but I said Chaim, you must take her in here too, because she is sleeping in a hallway and the rain is coming through to her bed. But he said okay. So she came in and we were sleeping. To be honest with you, I didn't got nothing to put on, so he -- I told him my sister died, I told him. So he was thinking I will marry him. See, he was so good, he said [speaks Polish here] I don't know if he bought a nightgown, or I went out to buy a nightgown, I bought a nightgown. And -- no, I think

my girlfriend gave me. She gave me a nightgown. We was sleeping over, but when he start to talk, I said no, Chaim, I am going back to Germany. I don't know anything, I am not -- I am not ready. Only thing I know, I have the -- that letter from Stockholm. So I was foolish, I didn't mark my -- the address. I gave him the letter and I don't have the address for where my sister is buried. I gave him the letter from Stockholm what I received. She died the -- June the i7". and where she is buried. So he told me to go. He [indecipherable] the piece of bread, but my girlfriend made nice money, so she said Hannah, I will make for you a dress, because this outfit what you are wearing, I don't like. The mens, you know, after the war, after me -- oh yeah, I know your brother, I know you, come in, I have clothes, I have [indecipherable] I have gold, we gonna get married. I said listen, please go away, don't bother me. I am sick. I came to see for my -- to look for my family. I'm not looking for a husband, I'm not looking for a boyfriend, not for diamonds and not for gold, because in Germany, if I would look for gold and diamonds, maybe I would find [indecipherable]. So my girlfriend -- yeah, so I met my girlfriend she said, do you know who is alive? I said who? She said Nathan Kalman. Maybe and now it was going to be this, but wasn't. I said -- I didn't answer, but she found him and she told him, you know who is alive? Chanka. Maybe Nathan you will -- oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

A2: [indecipherable] you was there?

A: That's what you told me. Okay, so he was -- they got good business, paper business. So he was making all kind backs, so I said Nathan, if you would like to be a friend, give me a little bit work for a few days because I'm going back to Germany, I can't find a place here. So the truth, he brought into my brother-in-law's place, and I was making light -- very light bags for hi -- hoods, you know, like the -- and he gave me, I don't know how much, he gave me more than he

should. And I bought food and I bought material and my girlfriend make the dress, and I went into the organization -- was there a friend, but he was the leader and he got mens what you were bringing back to the border.

A2: The briha. The briha.

A: The briha. I didn't get money. So I walked over to him and I told him, I said, listen, I have two people, so I don't want a commission from you, but I want from you a favor. I don't have money, but I'd like to go to. He said, don't ask favors, you are going. So I went back to Germany. And my brother-in-law married my girlfriend and they are in Sweden.

A2: And he was my -- my -- this [indecipherable]

Q: You -- you went back --

A: And I came back for my husband.

Q: You went -- you went back to Germany by yourself?

A: Yes.

Q: And he --

A: I told you I went into the man, what he was preparing the group. And he got mens what they took money to smuggle over the border, but I didn't got the money, so I had -- I have two people, but they gonna pay you, but I like to go with them because I don't have money. He said, don't wotlry, you gonna go.

Q: How long did you stay in Germany?

A: In Germany? I was in Germany til -- til 1935 -- til 1950. I came to the United States 1950, but I came back to Poland for my husband.

Q: When was that?

A: This was -- what time Nathan? Wa -- I will -- I will remind -- my son -- my son is -- A2: [indecipherable]

A: One minute, Nathan. My son is 45 --

Q: He was born in --

A: -- and a year after our wedding, we got our son.

Q: So you were married in 1946?

A: Th-That's -- that -- yeah, 1946 we got married.

Q: You got married. What day --

A: In Germany -- no, in Reichenhall.

Q: So your husband came wi --

A: [indecipherable]

Q: -- your -- your --

A: -- I went to Poland, I brought my husband. My husband got a little bit money, I didn't got money. He was working and he was making and -- and he bought a dollar, he said -- changed a dollar -- you know how Jewish on Black Market, he maked a few dollars, not much. So I said, Nathan, let's go back to Natan, Natan was the [indecipherable] to bring back the people to Germany. So I bringed my husband to Germany.

A2: He took a -- like a whole group at this time.

A: Hm?

A2: Natan took --

Q: So you went to -- you went to Germany?

A: Yeah, back to Germany.

Q: With your --

A: But not to Bergen-Belsen --

Q: By this time you were married?

A: -- not to Bergen-Belsen because they brought us to Vienna, to es -- Austria. From Austria they had to smuggle into Germany. Some of them, they went over the hill and they were in Italy, but I didn't got business to go to Italy. So we were there a few days, we were starving there too.

So we went out, my husband got a few pennies, we bought apples. I never got such bitter apples like the apples was from Germany, we throwed away. So I was sitting there, where a lot of people were sitting, childrens. So a man came over and he asked me, are you a Finer [indecipherable]? I said yes. Are you not remember me? I said, are you Mr. Millstern? I said -- he said yes. They were like, how you saying? A [indecipherable]. In our little city they were going to the hou --

Q: Musician.

A: -- this was a -- a [indecipherable] a father with three sons. He was playing the violin beautifully, but not from notes, only from hearing, but beautifully. Another brother was playing a bass. You know what I mean a bass? The bi -- beautiful.

Q: Yeah.

A: And the father, I think was playing -- I don't remember what the father was playing. With his youngest brother I went to school together. So he became the leader from this group and he brought in a can of soup. [indecipherable] soup, good soup. So he gave me another pot of soup, so I gave to him, because I was thinking a man needs a little bit more, so I gave him. So I got a little piece of [indecipherable] we finished up and we were starving. In the meantime, we came

in to make the cholent. Somebody put in cast oil in the cholent. You can't believe and you can't imagine. We wasn't able to walk out in the room. All the people went to the hospital. And we both didn't have the cholent. No, I got afraid, I got that sa -- feeling. I said, the Germans make that cholent for the Jews. We didn't ate the cholent and we both were healthy. All of them got in the hospital because they couldn't stop -- they weren't able to walk out from the room. Til here with the schmutz. So in a few hours later they came with trucks and they took us to Reichenhall, Bad Reichenhall. Bad Reichenhall they gave us a room and we got Francen Israel, and they told me to learn to became a nurse, and -- because nurses can make a living if not to wash floors and to wash clothes, you not able. So I worked in -- they got -- they make like first aid, like a little hospital. So I worked in there because I got a rash here. So I thought boy, they wouldn't take me in. So I met that doctor, but he was in the woods, a partisani [indecipherable], gynecogolist. So I said, Doctor, I would like to come to learn -- nursing school because I like to go to Israel, but I have a rash. He said don't worry about the rash, I have a rash on my face, but you gonna give blood and urine. If this is -- will be good, I will take you in -- in my department. So I took two days, three days, I came in. He said yes, you gonna stay here. So I got a year and a half nursing school in Germany, and I worked with this doctor, but I was very sick. So he said to me, Chanka, don't go to Israel. You don't have the medicine what you need, you don't have the food what you need, and over there you wouldn't work days, you gonna work nights. You have to lay -- you have to sleep and to relax and to come back to a little bit help. So my brother was preparing for - - my brother did business on Black Market, he make money. He prepare two pianos and two fridgerators and furnitures to the kitchen and the boxes was wood to make to build a -- a -- a -- a place. He sold us everything for [indecipherable]. And every -- maybe this gonna look to you

foolish. My brother came to say to us goodbye because he would come to us, because we were prepared. And he brought us presents to say goodbye. In the main night my father came and he took my hands, he said, where you going? It's not a place for you. In the morning I said Nathan, Iam not going. But I don't have the rights to stop you. Because he was a Hasharah, you know what Hasharah. He was starving. And he was preparing to go to -- to Israel and now you can go, I don't have the rights to stop. But, if you will find a place, I will wait and I will stay here. So my husband didn't go. They sold us everything [indecipherable]. But was hard for us to come to -- to America, so I went to the Jewish committee and they gave us two indexes, two [indecipherable] cards from a brother and a sister. So we came on other names to America.

Q: When did you come to America?

A: 1950.

Q: What day?

A: In [indecipherable] we -- but we got afraid, it's holiday, if you can go on a ship. So the rabbi said, if you going a two -- a day before, we can go on the ship. That's Stewart. With the ship Stewart, I came to the United States. We were traveling two weeks and my son was two years old.

Q: What was the name of the boat?

A: Stewart.

Q: Was the name of the boat?

A: Stewart, st -- General Stewart --

Q: Oh, Stewart --

A: -- yes.

Q: I see.

A: Yes.

Q: And then where did you settle?

A: In Scranton, Pennsylvania.

Q: And for how long did you stay there?

A: I stood til my husband got sick. My husba -- I got a good place, I worked on a very -- m-my little son, we didn't got nothing else to do, my husband was teaching him Hebrew songs, I was teaching him Polish songs. He was a cute little boy, I dress him beautiful. So the la -- the landlady took us to her summer place to show -- so over there was a man that he was a manager in a factory. So they called him, come here [indecipherable] Yiddish. So he came over and I said, Maxie, say the four questions from Pesach. He said. He says, my God, you want a place to work?

I said, [indecipherable] sure I would like to go because I don't like to go the je -- the Jewish commi -- Federation every week for the 25 dollars. He doesn't min -- mean that -- he asking me [indecipherable] sleeping with your husband, I lost my head ca -- tell him I'm sleeping in my own bed. I said, mine God, what I should do? I like to go to work. He said, you can go to work from two years. But in this factory they got a registered nurse. So I had -- I could take my boy to the factory. This boss from the factory was a born American man, but his father was a Russian man. So this man was so nice to me, a father and a brother can't be nicer. He --

Q: What was his name?

A: Howard Dixtane. Scranton Garment is the factory, the name. 1100 -- 1100 -- I forgot the street name. Scranton Garment. So he took my little boy to his bedroom because my -- Maxie didn't like to touch the childrens. So I -- I asked him if I can bring the childrens for sleeping on a

big bed like this, and he didn't mind. So I said [indecipherable] don't call me mister, call me Howard. I said, Howard, I -- my smich -- today my speech is good, but that time you can imagine -- can I bring my carriage for Maxie? He said yes. So Maxie was sleeping in his carriage, I raised Maxie and I raised Malka in this place.

Q: When was Malka born?

A: Malka was born -- A2: "52.

A: Huh?

A2: deg52. In Scranton, Pennsylvania in a Catholic hos-hospital she was born, yes. Later my husband got sick and I still -- I was making nice money from the beginning the man what he took me in, he is dead, but [indecipherable] he gave me such a hard time. I told him I can't sew, I don't know sewing. And this was an electric machine, I never saw an electric machine. I took a stop -- I put on round. And the girls didn't know I'm Polish because Scranton is coal mines, most are Polish, so they heard my Polish, so they were friendly to me. So he bringed me to bri -- make sleeves, a seam. This he showed me, I was able -- but he didn't told me this is coming in shades.

This was coming one, one, two, two. So I took one, two, one, three, one, four, was a -- a picnic.

90 pair sleeves, til I came blue wi-with navy. So I checked with the Polish girl, what I'm doing?

She said, don't worry, give the whole 90. So the girls ripped apart and they put together, and she said -- they talked Polish, nobody would be able to understand them, but I understood. She said, take one, one, two, two, to take there. But across me was sitting a girl, she was Italian. She looked like Jewish, I was thinking she is Jewish. So she was squealing and he came over, he gave me a hard time. He said, do you think we making -- we making -- money's coming from the

sky? You're taking 75 cents from nothing? I cried. So Ho-Howard Dixtane came over and he told the girls in English to tell me he isn't the boss, he is the boss, not to cry. What I gonna tell you? In six weeks I received a check for 45 dollars. I walked into the office, with my English and I said, 20? 45? She said, Hannah, you maked 45 dollars. I couldn't understand. I said 20, I have to receive 20 dollars. 25. Hannah, go home. You made 45 dollars. So I was thinking, if I'm able to make 45, I will make more. So I start to rush. I was making 110 dollars in Scranton, Pennsylvania for Howard Dixtane, but my husband -- yeah, and I bought a home by the park. My childrens went to the Hebrew day school now and a private school because I didn't like the Polish people to get my childrens to a public.

Q: What street was your house on?

A: My house? On Vine Street, close to park. Beautiful, six apartments. We worked very hard.

Malka was nine years old she was helping us to put floors. I maked a beautiful home because my childrens went to the Hebrew day school with rich childrens, so I know they will be ashamed to invite friends, so I built up first a home for them. I put carpets wall to wall, we met a friend, not a friend, he was from the same city and I told him I'm working here. He said you can come and take furnitures, you will pay off. I made it, I did, he put on th-the carpets, I got a beautiful home.

So little by little my husband got very sick. He got -- he got emphysema and -- and asthma. He choked. And he worked on a place what they got union, he make more money than I did. So they send him to -- to Penn State hospital and he got over there a checkup and they said Nathan, if you got a checkup in here there's nothing wrong. But I saw the man is choking, he can't eat. So I got -- we got a -- a doctor, his name is Bornstein, I don't know if he's alive. His wife was from the same city from what I was. A very rich daughter they got fap -- they made beer, how you say

it?

Q: A brewer.

A: She was a rich -- a very rich daughter. So he became our friend. He didn't took a penny from us. So I went over on Saturday and I cried for him. I said, Dr. Bornstein, tell me, what should I do? He said [indecipherable] Nathan is sick. Even I have to report from [indecipherable] you go to California, Los Angeles. I said, Doctor, I don't -- I can't go to Los Angeles. I don't have the money to buy a -- a nice -- nice section a home. I don't want to bring my childrens to the colla -- pardon me. So he said, you know, I am reading now a magazine from Tucson, Arizona. Over there you can buy very cheap a nice home. I took the -- Maxie. I was sitting -- I didn't got -- I didn't got school in here, but I'm reading and writing [indecipherable] I can see. So I call the same agent what I bought from him and he gave me 12,000 dollars on the little house. The big one I got sold. I said, Nathan, let's take. My husband said no, he's gonna look for another agent, maybe he will take more. I lost 3,000 dollars, I -- but I called back the same, it was a very nice man, he gave me 9,000 dollars, I took the 9,000 dollars, I took -- I bought a station wagon. My son got, 16 years old, license and he was driving six days to s -- to Tucson, Arizona. I gave them a good time, even I didn't got the money. I spend a few hundred dollars. Every night we took another -- how was the name?

A2: [indecipherable]

A: Huh?

A2:[indecipherable]

A: Motels -- End of Tape Three, Side A

Beginning Tape Three, Side B

A: I gave my childrens a good time.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: We went to the nicer motels. We paid that time 15 dollars a night. This was to me, a fortune.

We took with us, swimming pool. My children swing -- were swimming good because we si -- my husband took them to the Jewish community center, I became a member and Malkava got trap -- trof -- trophies from swimming, from jumping, Maxie got trophies from swimming and jumping, they both are good swimmers, thank God. My Malka's two childrens are good swimmers. Okay, so I gave them a good time, we traveled six days. So they looked fa -- so we bought -- I wa -- they -- we walked into the stores, they picked what they liked and we got in -- on -- on the highways we got tables, and I got a paper tablecloths, and tho -- I pleased them to buy the stuff what they liked and we were eating. One day Maxie said, in Holiday Inn is a sale today, you can eat how much you want, I don't think -- two dollars or three dollars. So I walked in with my husband, and I said, listen, it's not kosher, we wouldn't eat, let them eat. So the two childrens, they got wild. They were running back and forth and eating and eating and eating and eating. I paid, I don't know six dollars or five dollar. So a man from this place came over to us and he said, so we have kosher salami and we have kosher bologna and you can have something to eat in here. So we took bologna and salami the kosher. bread, we were eating and I took -- I bought more on the way and they got a good time and we went. Later we go -- go -- going to the stores. We were going to cities, and the stores, but one time we got a little accident. We walked into a little city not far from Tucson, Arizona, but this was only black. And we came into a hotel with black [indecipherable] and I was afraid to walk out and I was afraid to stay. But I was

thinking with my husband, we will sit the whole night and watch wi -- the childrens, we will pay for the night and tomorrow we gonna walk out, but was Saturday. But we got so tired we fall asleep too. In the morning we pay them and we asked him what type [indecipherable] is here, from vo, from vee [indecipherable] he saw we are Jews. So he said, listen, not far from here is a rabbi. But to be honest with you, we didn't go to the rabbi. We were waiting til the evening.

What happened? We got a ti -- a flat -- a flat tire, I think, we stopped in this little city. So we got fixed the car and we traveled -- we trave -- [tape break] -- we went to Tucson. My Maxie was lonesome for the friends from Scranton, Pennsylvania. He went back to our friend. I paid him not much and he finished the high school in Tucson, Arizona.

Q: What year was it?

A: This was -- who knows? Maxie was 16 when he went back.

Q: So it's about 1962?

A: I think so.

A2: "62

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: So he went back and he finished high school. So we were residents in Tucson, Arizona, so I got very cheap college, so I bought him to Tucson, he got mad because his friends went to Penn State and he was thinking I gonna send him, but I said, Maxie, I don't have the money, Daddy's sick, I'm the supporter. Over there I made 110, in here I'm making 50 dollars. Is one factory in the whole city, so you ha -- must go here. So he got his [indecipherable] here, he was mad, but he went to -- to the university. Okay. Malka finished the high school in Tucson, Arizona. Malka

was a honor student, she got a scholarship. My son got 20 points from psychology. From this he got free from Vietnam, but for spite he didn't worked in the university like he worked in the high school, so he make B plus, so Malka was fighting with him, she said, don't you know that Mama's sick? Can't you make the plus? He said, I don't want to be the best student. But anyway, he traveled. When he got Bachelor degree, he walked out from the university and he traveled to Europe and he got a friend in Holland. The friend went for a doctor there. I don't know why he went to Holland, but he -- yeah, so when he walked out from, the dean of the men called me, he said, Mrs. Kalman, Max walked out and he's gonna go to Vietnam. And Max left Tucson, Arizona. He didn't told me where he is going. Two days later I received, Maxie has to come to stay here [indecipherable] I went over to my doctor to help me because I got cancer, I got operation that time. He said, what I can do, I will do. I gonna call up the dean of the men, but this wasn't enough. So th-the -- the first letter was 10 days, tomorrow I got another letter in two days. So I announce on the radio, and I look on -- for Max Kalmanowicz all over. So he came over, he said, what's the matter with you people? I said, Max, where are you? In [indecipherable]. Stay. Wait for a man til he will take you to the police, or he will bring the policeman to you. Then come with the policeman to Tucson, Arizona. If not you're gonna go to Vietnam, you can -- you can -- you are not able to ha -- to -- to -- to -- to carry a gun. He got scared. He listened to me, he came to Tucson, Arizona with the policeman. But God bless my daughter and my husband, they didn't tell me, he went to Phoenix, Phoenix is the capital. And over there the dean of the men took out from Scranton, his record from the high school and he got the 20 points from psychology, he got free from the army. Okay, so later Maxie went back to -- yeah. So yo -- he wrote me a letter from Holland. He said, Mum, I'm coming back to the

university. And I s -- I wrote him right away back, he -- I -- I will take maybe some [indecipherable] or what. I said listen, don't make this for me. Do this for you. If not you're going to go to a factory like I and Dad, and I don't want it -- you to go to a factory. In our country I wouldn't go to a factory, I was able to do something else. But in here my language and my writing is no good so thank God I found a good factory. He came back, he went back to school, he got the second degree, how is that -- A2: [indecipherable]

A: Huh? What is the second degree?

Q: A Master's?

A: A Master's. They send him to the new school to New York, yeah. And over there they gave him a job, but was too much for me, 5,000 dollars a year rent and board and clothes. So they gave him a job in Bellevue Hospital and he worked with retarded childrens. And Malka got married and I left Tucson, Arizona, I sold the house and I moved to Israel because I got to please my husband. He said about the States, I gonna stay in -- in America? No. I'm going to Israel. So I sold and I went to Israel.

Q: How long did you stay in Israel?

A: 21 year. So Maxie wrote me -- no, sent me a cassette and he said Mama, if you not taking me out from this hospital, I will take -- became retarded like the childrens.

Q: You agreed to come and take him out.

A: So I took my husband, we closed our house -- I got my own house, and we went to s -- to Maxie, to home. I come home with the key to try open, the door is open, Maxie's home. Maxie, why you didn't wait? I received a letter from the doctor, but Maxie worked under the doctor.

And he said Maxie the place is still open, and if you like, come back. He didn't go. He -- he changed, he is now making commercials and writing movies. But not -- not much money, he isn't making much money. The commercials was good, but 10 years ago. And now the big places are closing, so he doesn't have a day, two days a week.

Q: And then when did you return from Israel?

A: Here? About three years ago. My husband got a heart attack.

Q: Yeah.

A: So I call my childrens. And I was very sick, I was three days in bed. He was calling, I wasn't able to go to the phone. My doctor -- they called my doctor, she said to the nurse, go over, take a look what's happened to Chanka. But in the meantime I dressed myself and I walked out and I was afraid to pass the street because I was shaking. So I asked a lady, I said, are you crossing this street? She said yes. She said, are you -- where are you going? I said, I'm going to the [indecipherable] such a nice woman, she said, I'm going to the [indecipherable]. She saw I can't walk, so she bring me to the [indecipherable] and in the [indecipherable] we had to wait for our end the line. She opened the door and said mis -- Dr. Rosenzeuk, take in this woman because she is sick. I brought her in. I told her I'm going there, but I brought her in because she -- when she saw me she said, Hannah, the doctor called me. So in the meantime my brother died, the same day. I said, Maxie, don't tell nothing to Malka, Malka's sensitive. She came right away because I am in bed and Daddy is in the hospital. He said, Mum, I have to send Malka, Herzkel died, I have to go to bury him, because he doesn't have nobody. So Maxie went to New Haven to bury my brother, and Malka to 120, both 120, Malka came the same day. She paid 1300 dollars because was no room, she took first class, was only place, and she took a car, was Friday, and

she came to me. She said, Mama, you're not alone. She said, Mama, I would like to go now I said no, Malka [indecipherable] because now I'm afraid because the highway in both sides are Arabs and I don't know -- and we don't know the way, nor we can see a map, nothing. Malka, we will have to wait til in the morning. So she said, Mama do you have what kind this guy gave you to the stomach, huh?

A2: Vodka.

A: Not vodka. A better one. She said Mama everything is shaking, give me -- give me a tiny, little bit. So I said, I have -- I forgot the name, it's special for stomach, so I gave her a little bit and we were both sitting in bed and talking, til God helped us, six o'clock in the morning. We dressed ourselves, we going downstairs. I said, Malka, we have to ask somebody about we w -- how to start. It's Saturday we can buy a map, I can buy a map, I know how to --

Q: Where were you living then?

A: In-- A2: Arad.

A: Arad. So I don't know what [indecipherable] American. The nurse from my doctor was outside six o'clock. I walked over to her and I hugged her and she said, how is Nathan doing? I said, we don't know because my daughter arrived [indecipherable] and she told her, my daughter, whi-which was to go. And the middle way I was -- I was giving my daughter the -- the -- the directions. So thank God we came and my husband got an American doctor from Los Angeles, I was so happy. I said, an American doctor? They are better than the Israelis. Do you think she knew? She told me, you can take your husband and go and see your children, he has only a hole in his stomach, the heart is perfect. So my children said Mama, come with Daddy and

you gonna stay here three months and we will help you. I took my husband and I went to my Maxie, to New York. And --

Q: Did you live in Arad the whole time, in --

A: Yeah, yeah be-because my husband had a little asthma and emphysema.

Q: So for 21 years you lived in Arad.

A: Yes, and we have very bad rheumatism, very bad arthritis. So the -- the places over there he was much better than here. So we came to Maxie, Maxie said Mama let's took -- take a little walk to the bank, I will take out money. And we are -- started to walking and he is fainting. So I don't know, a man helped us, we bought him into the bank and they [indecipherable] was hitting.

I said Maxie, let's take a taxi home. So Malka's friend was a doctor in New York, and Maxie called her up. She said, Maxie, I will call you -- a few minutes later -- I will call up a good doctor. She called up Dr. Maas. If she wouldn't call I would have had to wait a few days. And she told -- she called Max back, so she said, take your daddy right away morning -- eight o'clock in the morning. Such a good doctor, a good natured doctor you never met in your life. A daughter can't be better. So she said Maxie, I will take your daddy first. So she took my husband and she's to -- called Maxie, said Maxie, I maked an appointment in the hospital. Right away take him. Don't tell nothing, don't say nothing to Mom. Your daddy's heart is hanging on an one wa -- 0-on -- on one vein. My Maxie took my husband to the hospital, they didn't let him out, they put him right away on a bed. And Maxie didn't told me nothing. But later the doctor wants our signature, to sign. I didn't, Maxie didn't, we had to call Malka. Malka came, the doctor explained to her. He said listen, if you wouldn't sign, your daddy is gonna die. Let's try. So Malka signed and thank God, it's three years already, but he has still trouble. The operation is

fine, the heart is fine, but he has a drainage and we can't find what's -- what's going on. So now he needs another operation.

Q: Can we talk a little bit about --

A: About what?

Q: -- about what feelings you have about your wartime experiences. Had -- did you talk about your war experiences before? Have you told people about it, tal --

A: About the concentration camp?

Q: Ye-Yes.

A: I'm not stopping. People don't like it and I don't care. Even downstairs when I'm sitting with the -- with the ladies, they don't -- they don't like. A man said, oh stop talking, stop talking, stop -- I said, don't worry, history repeats, be prepared. It's wouldn't happen to you, will happen to your grand -- grandchildrens.

Q: Did you tell your children about your experiences?

A: Yes, my childrens know everything about it, yeah.

Q: Does -- does the war still affect you? Your experiences still affect you?

A: What -- what kind experiences you mean?

Q: What you went through, what you went --

A: Yeah, what -- what -- what kind affects you -- do you think?

A2: Just the whole -- just the whole health question.

A: Health? 100 percent.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And they're paying only to me 25 percent. Three hundred --

Q: You are getting -- are you getting --

A: -- three hundred --

Q: -- reparations?

A: -- three hundred and 11 dollars they paying me a month.

Q: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

A: Yeah.

Q: How do you feel about that?

A: To be honest with you, if I would be able not to take from them, I wouldn't. But my husband is smarter, he said, what you gonna do? They go -- wouldn't cry if you would give them back the 300 dollars [speaks foreign language here] to take more. And about -- in Israel, when they start to fight with -- with Ben-Gurion, I said, you are not right. They giving money, we building up our country, take it, because this blood money is our money.

Q: What kind of feelings do you have about being Jewish?

A: To be Jewish?

Q: Mm-hm.

A: I was very proud my whole life to be Jewish, and I am proud I have Jewish childrens. And I'm proud they still believe a little bit in religion. Very proud. Maxie became now more religious because he went a year to the Yeshiva in New York in [indecipherable]. But was an accident with his roommate, I took him out. So in -- in the university he got changed, he became a hippie.

So later, my husband was bothering him with [indecipherable] I got to have time. I said Maxie, find good two boys and rent on a place. He said, who's going to pay the rent? I will pay. So finally he find good two friends. One boy, til today, he is non-Jewish, he is like my own son.

Q: Is there anything else before we close, is there anything else you would like to share that we haven't talked about?

A: To share one thing?

Q: Anything you'd like to say?

A: One thing, they have to go from a school [indecipherable] from organization to organization, to all the meetings what -- what Hadassah is making, to each [indecipherable] A2: [indecipherable] get together --

A: -- together and to start a little bit from concentration camp. Because our people died with the war. If somebody would be alive, don't forget from us, talk from us. Even on weddings, all over, if I would be younger, stronger, healthier, I would do. My Maxie's professor from New York, from the new school, asked me -- me -- Maxie, because Maxie took off to bring us from the airport. He said, my parents are coming for Israel. He said, Max, bring up your parents. Let them speak in here because we got a -- a professor [indecipherable] and he said lies. I was able to -- to see the lies. So he said, my parents are not speaking well English. Bring them up. My parents are longer than your parents they're not speaking well English. But Maxie begged us, he [indecipherable] us. I said, Maxie, I am nervous, I am afraid, I will cry. Don't take me, don't take me. But the professor begged Maxie a few times to bring him down. I will tell you another story.

In Tucson, Arizona, a professor from the university, [indecipherable] was how you saying with a -- with a Reform rabbi -- A2: A discussion. Discussion.

A: -- a discussion. So the Arab start to talk such lies, and I was with my friend, but she went to the university. I didn't got somebody to watch my children, but of course, I couldn't do the same

thing. And she got a mother, so her mother watched the childrens, she went to the university. She became a laborant -- she was a in labortoium. She was from the best [indecipherable] testers. So I took her, I said Hannah, your English is better, come with me. What I can tell you? I stood up with my broken English and I said, you are professor and you not ashamed to bring lies like that?

He didn't answer, he went [indecipherable] I went over to the rabbi, I said, why you came here, Rabbi? Why you came here? Can't you answer? The rabbi respect me later like I would be a queen. I said, Rabbi, don't go any more. If somebody will come, talk about Israel, send somebody what he knows what's going on. Don't go any more. What can I tell you, a girl was sitting close me. She said stop. I said, do -- you don't like it? Change your place. You like lies, go closer. This man had to stop. He said such lies. Only I can --I-I -- I said, mine God, how can a professor stay and talk to people such dumb like you? No, that's what I told him, with my broken English.

Q: Is there any message you'd like for your grandchildren?

A: Yes, we are leaving -- my husband made tapes and my daughter will still -- and mine grandson got Bar Mitzvah and I forgot -- I don't know, my daughter told him. I risk my life. I told you I worked in the canteen in the kitchen. And I opened the ki -- the kitchen seven o'clock, I prepared to make the fire, everything. So came to me a man. He was black like you would paint with black paint. This man was wearing smutters on his feet, he didn't have shoes. Was bitter cold, 28 below zero. He got a cold with a gargle -- you know what a gargle, but [indecipherable] and he came with a pot. I don't know from where he know the place, and he start to ask me a favor, to give him a little bit soup. His wife is laying in bed and his children's fever's up. He was dead already too. He start to bless [indecipherable] I got afraid, because I shouldn't do this. But I

filled up the -- the pot and I put in a raw potato, a piece of meat, I don't -- what I got, and I told him right away [indecipherable] three days this man came seven o'clock and after no more, this man died. So on the Bar Mitzvah, God bless my grandson til 120, he talked about me, what I did to this man. So my daughter is talking with him, yes, because I didn't told him. Mine husband find a piece of bread from the di -- it was prichis, you know what prichis? That's like an -- you know, from na -- fell down to my husband's bed a piece of bread. So my husband was thinking and thinking, to eat or not, to eat or -- he said, this is somebody else life. My husband gave back this piece of bread. We told our daughter this. My grandson was telling this story on his Bar Mitzvah. I risk my life in concentration camp, too. I was throwing a onion to them. If a SS man would caught me, he would kill me right away. Right away. I can tell you again, no writer in this world, to me, to read a book from concentration camp is a nothing. Only if a man what he was in concentration camp and he was in ghetto from 1939 til 1945, yes, this book you should read, this is true. But not all the camps were the same. Was worser and a little bit milder. I was in the worst. I was Auschwitz, I was in Bergen-Belsen. Bergen-Belsen was a camp not to talk. Six months, I was six there, at Bergen-Belsen. How I survived, I don't know. My daughter -- my sister died. My daughter til 120. She died in Sweden. So what else you da -- you remind me a little bit because I'm a little, you know.

Q: No, and just anything else before we close?

A: Ask me about, because I'm a little [indecipherable] not -- not ma -- not myself.

Q: Okay, no, well you've -- you've -- I just want to thank you.

A: One thing I will tell you again. How many minutes we have? Not --

Q: Just one or two, just a couple minutes.

A: I walked to open the kitchen. I saw a little boy with a big tallis, and the little -- was very cold.

The little boy cried. I took from him the tallis because his hands was red like fire. And I said, little boy, where are you going with the little tallis. He said, th-they shot my mother, they killed my mother in Pabianice, this was very to Ledz. I was thinking the little boy doesn't know what he's talking. I took him with me to the kitchen, because I wa -- and this little boy start to tell us stories, another girl came, another girl came. And he said, oh, you don't know what's going on in Pabianice. They killed all the Jews. They killed the j -- th-the -- the children. So we start to believe a little bit. So in this place where I worked, a man was like not normal. He wor-worked with the pot over the head over. The only time I said to him, can't you work like a human being?

He said, if you would went through what I would, you would be mummashigo. I said, what do you mean? I was digging a hole and I put in my son alive, and I had to walk away. I looked at him, I said, how can be this true? You not normal. This I said to the man. He was not normal, he was not, I can tell you. Because to then through thing like this, but I was thinking and sitting and coming home and telling this. They said no, this can't be true, this can't be true. But in a few days later we got the same thing.

A2: [indecipherable] people, they could do everything.

A: That's what the man told me. The SS man told me to dig a grave, I dig. And he put in my boy, and my boy was screaming, [speaks foreign language] Daddy, why you leaving me? The SS man, he was hitting him with the gun, and he wasn't -- he -- he lost his memory for a few days.

He didn't know anything about what's -- what to happen to him til they brought him to Ledz. So this man told me the story, I didn't believe him.

Q: Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to do thi --

A: Time is nothing --

Q: -- to do this.

A: -- lam happy you're taking things like that. And don't stop working, because the people what they lost their lives in concentration camp, they begged us to tell people what the Germans did to them. And we should go on with this, because our generation are dying. A day later, a month later. We are old. We are going. The jung jen -- young generation should take over, and not to stop. Not to stop. History repeats and God forbid if this gonna happen again, and America is going down big anti-Semitism too. They have Germans walking around with Hakenkreuzens, I saw it on my own eyes in -- in New York. Not to walk out from the houses, what's hap -- gonna happen in your house. No concentration camps, no out, here in my house. If they're gonna kill me, in the house, no walking out. [tape break] The people from concentration camp what they died, before they died they said these words, the leftover people, what you gonna be alive, not to forget to talk to the American people, what you went through, how they are died, not to walk out from the houses. If God forbid if history will repeat, if it's gonna be another concentration camp, die in your house with your childrens, with your family. Don't go out from the houses. And please listen to me and to somebody else, because we can find still smarter people from concentration camp, but I have experience not to lose every day another from the family.

Everybody together, all to live, all to die.

Q: This has been Gail Schwartz interviewing Hannah Kalman about her experiences as a survivor of the Nazi holocaust. This interview with be included as a valuable contribution to the oral history library of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.

End of Tape Three, Side B

Conclusion of Interview