Document

EUGENIA BLAU SZAMOSI September 12, 1990

A: My first name is Eugenia.

Q: Your last name?

A: Eugenia Szamosi.

Q: Where were you born, Mrs. Szamosi?

A: I born in Transylvania. In those times Transylvania was Hungary and the name from from the little town, . That is in...later on it went to Roman...uh to Romania and the name was . But I was liv...I was living, if I can say that living several months there and my fam...our family went up to Budapest andI born in 1914.1 ___ once before the war, the 1st World War. My father was uh immediately went to the military service and I in Budapest with my mother. I was the last child in the family. It is interesting in this way to continue and my my father disappeared...not exactly disappeared...by the fact by the very beginning uh became to Russia and that was a possibility that I have heard from my mother naturally the story that about three years my mother was able to get several uh uh message and later when in there in Russia began the Revolution and and my father disappeared and he arrived at the seven years later, so this is the short story. He was and he grew up very close to the mother and that is our childhood.

Q: Tell me about where you would go to school, a little bit about your life as a child?

A: So I went uh to the school in a normal...what is an elementary school and to mention something uh I have had a very bad feeling there because in these years when I was six, seven years old, it was a big anti...anti-Semitism in Hungary. This was the counter-revolution after uh after a short Communist revolution in Budapest in Hungary and it was like...as a little girl I have had always a feeling that I am not in raspberries (ph)...that I was a good student but I was always dessert (ph). First and the second must have been...just a young girl and uh grade and everything was a big difference. I was a very still, very frightened as a girl and it was interesting in our family that after the elementary school there four years, I asked my mother that I want to go in a private Jewish school. This was uh it...this was a private school and my mother was very astonished why how I am getting in these uh in these _ and I told her I I must go in this school. I am not going farther to the to the normal school, and because I was a good student, student I get a a (cough) bonus from the from the fees what what was necessary to to pay there and in the first time when I was in this in surrounding, I became happy, very in a good mood and a quite a different person, so I was at home, and I finished four years in this school. THen I made a one and a half year uh course uh course...

Q:

A: Yeah. And then I went back on to work, like a a young secretary and later I 1 was working. I have had only two...first place I was one and a half years...like a telephone ____ and five years in one place and ten years when I was in another uh job where I where I made everything for import/export firm. At the time I was getting a big prices and I was keeping the books and correspondence, yeah, and everything what was uh what was necessary. This was still...see the last time before I became married.

Q: What were uh the young working woman uh just before you married...uh you were in Budapest...what was Budapest like at that time?

A: Lovely. (Laughter) __ was a happy person because I have had the real feeling that it very good to be to be young in Budapest. It was a very very nice uh...it is a very nice town and I have had a very interesting uh company, mainly Jewish per...people but not only. Uh my company...I get my company...after my two sisters, because I have had two sisters in the company and I was the little one and I went in in this the same company, so in general the boys, the company was about eight, nine, ten years older than I. They was mainly intellectual persons. They was uh they came back from several universities, from Paris, Sorbonne, Rome, even Prague because there was such a anti...anti-Semitism in Hungary that for Jewish people it was very difficult to get a a place or the possibility to go in the university, so a lot of Jewish uh youths went out...mainly Paris, , even Vienna, Paris, Rome, Prague, to learn, so I have had a very interesting and good | company and it was really a wonderful life. The life, it was not necessary how much is the money or how few is the money. Mainly if you (laughter) but there was not interesting. It was not depend on the on the money the good life. That was a high cultured life, music, museums, theater and only through strolling from Budapest it was a problem.

In the old part, Buda...old buildings and only to sit down near the near the __ and to look the _ and the bridges. It was a wonderful life, and it was really...spent a very joyful youth there.

Q: How did you...it sounds lovely...how did you meet your husband and when?

A: We find each other... think it was...one moment...the very early autumn from "39. At those time it was very fashionable for young people to make sport and a very popular sport was to rowing on the __, on the Danube. And in this time...this was I think the first uh uh the first groups that the Jewish young people was called in called up to make uh labor service, and there was a weekend when I was honest alone, without my company, and I decided I am going alone to rowing on the Danube and I and then I find a lady friend and we went two together and there was a little uh not restaurant...a buffet...accidentally and there we find each other...there my my later husband began to speak to me. I was speaking to him. I was in the...I was sure that he must be Christian because I was sure that all the Jewish uh the Jewish young people is in the labor camp and he was out. I was sure that he was a Christian person. I was speaking very shortly...his was the first. Then it was a second rendezvous, as you say, and I wanted to be very sure...I wanted to cut these connections because this was not the time to to make a connection between a Jewish girl and a Christian boy. Even I told to my mother that I have a rendezvous with a...I will make this very short...and we went sitting in a terrace nearthe _ and some way it came out that uh that there was some little group, Nilos (ph) group, that this was very beginning from the Nilos movement. They were shouting several slogans and I thought that I hate these people and Szamosi said I hate too. And it was nothing to say because not every Christian person was like this uh Nilos movement and I wanted to make sure and I thought because I am Jewish and he was very uh stonish (ph) because I was very uh uptight, blonde and alive and he left, wanted to see every German in this and and he he told Iam I am Jewish too. Then I was very (laughter) astonished, because I was sure that he is Christian and then even he told I am religious and I was very, very astonished that a young person who is going to export on the on the Danube...how can . Uh my company was uh better to say...how you say today leftist but there was several persons real communists, idealist communists in those time.

That was that was under... underground. That in Buda...in Hungary was not communist party. It was forbidden. So I grew out uh up very lef...uh leftist company and I didn't have the _ to be religious and I was asking how, why. Your father is very uh very strong.

You must go in the syna...and I don't know. I am going from my home, and it makes me very furious and I didn't finish with this rendezvous. There was another rendezvous (laughter) and saw him out inthe the _ next (laughter)...(pause)...we had a lot of the differ....different between us because I was as I told uh a leftist and I 1 was against any formal (ph) things and and uh he was more more...how to say this...middle class...you know, these informal to to go to a five o'clock tea, something like this, and I was heard these things so because going together about one and a half years and there was a lot of discussion between us, but this was like to to make a stone smoother (laughter) and by the end we decided when we are making so nice discussion we can married and continue this (laughter) and these wars (ph). Never boring.

Q: When did you get married?

A: In uh "41, November.

Q: What was it like for your then, in "41 in November in Budapest, and you're married?

A: So it was quite a...for a short time it was...we was very happy young couple but it was a very short time because in "41...it was...was, it was more and more difficult to be free from the from the labor camp, and my husband was again this way because he decided not to go in uh till "40..."41..."42...1t was not so difficult. A little perfection (ph) here, a little money there...something...it was...several...I was not involved in this. Only I know that he is not at five to go like a cattle. He was a very indi...individual person. But "42...yeah...my son born "42...and uh in "42 began the...life began to be more serious and more pressed and uh my my husband begun to make ___ the possibility through physicians to get some false uh uh paper that he is ill in this illness or other illness, not to go in in the labor camp, but it was always more and more difficult and and dangerous to play this way, and he made some ___ operation like like uh abscess...he got some abscess and uh profits were made on the operation then he was was always able through me to find a way to to pay somebody to help us and there was literally illness then I was able to speak with this physician or professor to pay something, give a longer time for for this illness to___, but every second or third month he got there uh called up to the military service so he find a way...I don't know somebody give this ID...yes...and get and get their ID when he he can go in a in a mental hospital. Then the military uh military uh police cannot take out these people from there, and we paid for somebody a very big amount. It was...I can't remember...ten thousand penge what made ten months , but you know I will not find out that the professor who was the the head from his hospital, he was in this , but my husband went in in this uh uh mental hospital and to make a little shorter the story, he was able to spend there six months. That was a big, big time in in the very very dangerous time. I was every day there from forenoon till evening and what was quite difficult for me that the the physician...he was the respon...responsible for this for this uh part from the hospital...he never asked my husband, yeah my husband decided we didn't know what what this means to be mentally ill, because we'd never read, never learned it was so imm...immediately and my husband thought I decide not to speak with people. I will speak only with you. And and not with the physician and not others, but I didn't know that this is good or not good, so almost every afternoon, evening when I wanted to left the hospital, the physician asked me what I have seen, what was the behavior from my husband and almost day after day I was pressed to find out something but give a picture that he is really not normal. He was living...he had he had a separate room and he was speaking, everything, even playing a little cards, but this was not the way to to be mentally ill, so always I find out something that I wanted, that he was very depressed and I thought to play a little cards would be...but he was confused and he didn't find the the way how to play, and each time I have had the feeling I was always (laughter)...but I was forced to make always these everyday stories that my husband really could be hold uh so with this way I think it finished. He got the papers that he is uh mentally ill. This was official. There was a a from the state or uh supervisor, a professor to make some questions and everything and temporary he he was uh put in...what is to to say...I was the responsible for him, you you know this these...and because he had had severaluh _ or real estate places, this was written in the register book that he is he is not right to sign this uh contract or something I am responsible uh temporary, temporary.

It was not for another time when the when the professor or somebody will say that he is OK, he is healthy, so this was a very difficult time but on the other side it was very difficult every day to go there and to play this play, but on the other side he was safe in there. It was...and several times I have seen that was coming military police to look. He was not alone in this in this mental hospitals. There was about...later we find out...always about eight, ten, twelve Jewish young people but nobody knows that the other other is playing. That was absolute disgrace and uh when I when I have seen from above that here is a guard from the military police, then I went down down there. There was a public telephone like I want to speak to somebody and I was able always to speak with the people, and I take out from the officers...and what is what is the name...who are you looking for. I wanted to be prepared but it was quite good in this place and it was quite good as long...my my husband came out I think in the..."43..."43 autumn. And it was...yeah...yeah...yeah...then we leaved our quite private life in our flat, but very very often somebody...what is this...somebody's saying against against another person...yeah...yeah...why he is at home, why he is not in the military...in the labor service, and it was...we decided, my husband decided that we will take a a second flat, to rent a second flat uh place far from Budapest near near a famous lake that is a summer place but it was autumn and we did take a villa there with with our little boy and uh later lived there only to visit there from Budapest that the people will forget. And uh not to denounce. It was our place...yeah...till till December I think, uh end of December...we rented this for longer time but uh I was pregnant with Mariam (ph) and I get a very very heavy..uh I have had this, this was , and the pregnancy made me position that in evening I get a back that I was not able to to move, so the next day we we took a ambulance, and we ran back to Budapest and we there in our flat. Our flat was in which is in Budapest like the Champs d'Elysee in Paris and in January Miriam born. I was I was very ill before birth time. I was very ill after that time. I was not able to stand up and very very heavy uh pains, so I was in very ill till March, 19th March when when the army from Hitler arrived to Budapest and this took me up from the from the bed. (Pause - drinking) About this date I'm sure that you have heard a lot and my husband was not working. He was an elected person. He was working with his father together, but uh before this time quite a...I think a year earlier or what it was taken the license for Jewish people to to work in these area, so he was...we find a . You know what this...uh uh Christian person and the it was...then he give the name for the firm, and my father-in...father-in-law and my my husband was working in uh behind these these uh Christian men name so to make a life, but it was a quite a illegal way but a very common way in those time. It was a absolute common way. A lot of people was living in this uh living with this possibility and this was a big possibility for the Christian people to get a _____ not to work and to get goods already, so everybody was in this way quite happy, the Christian and the Jews, so I will continue. The next day to a week came the order to that Jews must uh hold a yellow star but earlier there was a very terrible stress within the Jewish people and a terrible __ the first time, prominent Jews and uh a lot lawyers and uh like hostages. They didn't know what will be the fate for for these people. These was called in immediately, mainly disappeared. This was I think the first uh transport of to deported, and what was the Judenrat and you know, what is this uh....so every day a new guard order from the _ to this is forbidden and this is forbidden and how to how to bea...behave, how to live, and we when we arrive at this time to go out with the to wear this yellow star. It was a terrible feeling, that people with a sign to go on the street. The first uh several days mainly women went went out, not to mention that very few younger un men was at home. It was...the younger age was in the labor service. That was already taken and there were very respectable people and but the first, second day I went out. I have had something to__ in the office and I decided that I am going out. It was like to goininacold water.I wasan__ and I was not uh...I was sure that I I will not incite...insult...incite. This was a very risky, very that somebody is going out, somebody can spot or insult oreven__, but I was sure that I am not that type and never I was insulted in my life, and I went out. It was a terrible feeling that somebody came against me, very respectable elderly person...like an aristocrat, with a yellow star, and to look each other, you you too. You too. And then please wait to go in the street. It was something about the...in our age, in our lib...liberated uh youth, after our liberated youth, it was so almost impossible to understand that how can people be back in this way and to live in this way, but I made a self-suggestion that it is now my shame. It the shame, it is the shame who made this with me. It was a brainwash but I made for me. I have a little uh story about in this office...interesting. I went in and there was aa automatic elevator. It was a two...two person was going in and this went up five. I went in and nearby was a...well a gentlemen about uh forty, forty-five. He saw star...1 was with the star, and this was a little problem, and he was looking at me curious way and he was asking uh you must wear these or...and then the question was the the _ that I making uh the demonstration near the uh to be sympathetic for the Jewish people but never happen in Budapest, but it was known that someplace, some somebody can make some demonstration. This happened inin _ later. We learned this, so the question was this that you must wear this or , and he was looking and and asked me, have have somebody in your family I understand Christian and I never left to finish the question. And I told yes, Rabbi. He was astonished. And he was looking, he was not from Budapest. I I wanted to make a . I told yes, I am from Transylvania. I born in Transylvania...I told him a landlo...landlord family. I told no. A pub-owner family.

(laugher) Then he was looking at me and I arrived __ and he told me if lifl am ifI am able to help you or something, my hand was the paper what I wanted to arrange there and I made so thank you. I will arrange alone. This was a sympathetic, but this was the first day. He wanted to help me someway. I don't know how. I was not a a dangerous type. I was a very Aryan type so this was a quite a good feeling to hear this sympathy of words, but I was very stressed, so this was the first uh uh experience to wear the yellow star on the street. Then we get the proxies later...these was in this way...and our hands like this, hands back...give me something like the hand back. We went from the street. We uh uh women's hold hands back in this way, and to...not all the time to show the...so a part I think I finished and this part from our life. Then came the order that that uh Jewish people must go in several houses to live, every family in one room which is not interesting how how many person...

Q: Please...we'd like to know about this (?)

A: Yeah. A long, long monologue...so that was...several houses was fined. There was some

which area, which houses will be yellow-starred signed houses. Naturally our our home, it was not in this uh because it was a very unelegant place, a very representative street. They made this into...many of the back streets and mainly the most, most people was Jews in the house. So not far from our house there was...the corner from our house...the corner was a very famous uhuh __ house, 60. This was a...1 cannot now remember that before the Nilos which part owned this house. Really I cannot now envision, but this was a famous house. Nex...uh next from this house in the back street there was a house who in this list that this will be a yellow-stared signed house. I was not...uh we was not running to look. We was a little bit para...paralyzed the first time, but uh somebody was ringing and coming and yelling, so and he began to say that I have flattened this house what will be signed for the Jews and I have heard the conceriege that here is a Jewish family maybe that we can change the flag. I was quite apathetic in this because this was sure that this is not to live. It is only a temporary thing.

What will happen with us if it is not the place where we were living, and I went this young person. I went in the house. He showed me which uh...attached there is two rooms and the kitchen and the maid's room and came out a person from the house, a young man, good looking young man and he asked me uh madame, will you come in in this house and I thought I don't want to come in. I must come in. He thought come in...there was a good place. I have here a war factory. Uh I am making uh I am making uh noodle and uh macaroni for the military service. Here the door will always will be opened and I have a telephone. And this was not for me. I was not interested in what is this flat. I come back and I told Lotzie (ph)...Lotzie is my husband... find a place. The main thing there is a particular person. He told me that the door will be always open and there is a telephone, and this was very very important and we decided to change the flat. We left this our flat with a lot of belongings there and we take the the minimum bedroom and something that was necessary to this flat and we made a friendship with this uh factory owner. He he immediately take us in like a worker in this in this uh war factory. That was a...that gives a big difference because...uh I cannot remember what was the order that Jewish people from the from the signed houses can go out between eleven or...till one...something like this, for a short time to arrange something or buy something or was survival was to buy.

But the somebody had these these uh document that he is working in for the military, military service. This gives a longer uh time to to to strolling outside in the street, and this was very important. So it was quite a, quite a good life. It was written...1 was luha person always I was looking the good side. Now we are in one room. The other room is took in uh my husband's uh brother, a physician with a wife and two little children and in the maid's room there was a help for me. She was my cooks and she was looking always after my children, uh a Jewish person, a Jewish woman, an elderly woman and there was living eight, nine, nine or ten person in this two-room flat, but there was living. In uh during this time I think it was May...for that and we got a lot of control. I am not a historian to to...and we had heard that the...in the... what happened in the countryside everywhere and what was the meaning ghetto. That I think there was together and what the meaning deportation. Not exactly...only about. We didn't get any any detail how was this deportation...really mainly I, I wasn't not to think about only the bad things. Always I I was looking what is deportation. To take the people another place to work. Maybe uncomfortable maybe but this is the maximum what uh what I was able to imagine. But we have heard about the concentra...what what is happening on the country. In the meantime I was not very interested with uh Zionist movement. I have heard sometimes from my husband that he is a Zionist. OK. It's his business, and he went always out from the house...a lot of telephones and he hold his horse on connection, but I was not very interested as long...he was....I think we had had a feeling during July...it was continued this deportation from the country and we began to get the feeling that now is our turn because this deportation, this ghetto together...put together the people and put in because it came very very close to Budapest, till the suburbs. And it was a a feeling that tomorrow, after tomorrow our turn is coming. Then uh I think it may be August...we get some some information that what is stopped uh ____ you know, ...uh stopped the deportations. And he changed the government and will be another uh solution but uh what will happen with the Jewish population, so we get a little breathe, and uh to change the government it really means a little more liberal and only to hear the the announced that what is stopped, the deportation, so it was a little bit out from the immediately danger, but I must tell you that I didn't shout that the deportation it is dead. I didn't run to understand. My husband began to speak about this, that you know these people is going to . And I told you are crazy. You are speaking something what is believable.

Why? When when people must hear...why not in the press, why not make these organization and to take children, old people, and my husband told yes, this is the sign and when the people is taken for the work, why the children, why the old people, why the the ill people, why everybody? These people will bring the and I thought it is impossible. Don't speak in this way. I wanted not to hear it this way, but...so we get a little breathe, a little better feeling and even we began to very optimist, very...that the war must be finished. I think that uh...as a matter of fact we have heard what is the situation on the on the front and it was far uh after Stalingrad and we knows that the Russian is coming uh closer and closer to to Hungary and really I know I cannot uh mention what was the front situation, but it was a possibility to think that we had a little uh a little uh future, maybe that we will be the only person in Budapest, the only Jews to survive this with our , without without to take to deport...to be to be deported. That or dead. So it was a quite a good feeling till 16th of October. This was a...if | can good remember a Sunday, a nice autumn Sunday. We went out, my husband and I, a little bit strolling on the on the Buda, to get a little fresh air. We uh carved out spot and this was a very nice forenoon only it was interesting to see that a lot of military uh vehicles went out from Budapest, German military uh uh cars and trucks. The direction was out from Budapest. We have seen this and it was very quiet in the in the town and we came back to this yellow-starred house and something was in the air. It was not announced anything, but everybody had had a feeling this is a strange interesting day.

Something will happen. In the same day so in the noontime uh not in the our with whom we changed the the flat, he came in and he told you know Mr. Szamosi when something will change, we will change back the flat. We had nothing again...uh against each other. You are you are agreed that I didn't made anything against you, and my husband thought OK, OK, OK. It was so in the air even the Christian people had had a feeling something good happened in the very very next future. After noon we have heard the declara...uh declaration from _ that he finished the the the partnership with uh with the Germans. It was to hear it was something that we finished from our side, but in the same time we was with each other, and my husband thought interesting that they are making such a big change. Where is the Hungarian army? How can, how can we change something for such a drastic way. We was coming through the ion the bridge what was always uh uh guarded from the Hungarian and from the German army. There was always guards. When we came back there was no guards. There was no Hungarian and no no German. It was very strange. It was just so...if somebody's thinking about the the _, it must be something. We hadn't hadn't seen any Hungarian uh soldiers during our our stroll, but it was a fantastic uh several minutes to hear this, but in our our heart it was not the feeling . We finished. After a...it was...as we we had heard this declaration twice in the radio or three times. Then the radio began to give German march music, German. There was no Hungarian. It was German. Then after the music...always very, very military uh music...we had heard voices, a message for uh Nilos uh leader people. There I will never forget the name that and there was a voice,

please come back. please come back. A very uh prominent Nilos. Then I had un we understand that here happened something, what was in a good way but came out in the opposite way. And uh then in the same evening we have heard that uh that the declaration for is void and the new govern...government is the Nilos government. The leader is and several other very uh fraidful (ph) for names, anti- Semitic persons, Nilos leaders.

Q: Maybe this is the perfect place to pause and change tapes, give you a moment...

End of Tape # 1 Tape #2

Q: OK. We're starting with the end of October 15, 1943...

A: No. No. Yeah. Fifteen October, yes. And and so this was the big change, all the house, all the population from this house, all the people was on the, on the field. Nobody went to sleep. We was waiting what will happen with us. Mainly because our house was the very first house of the Nilos Nilos government take these sixty, this became the headquarter and we was the very first house in the back street for this corner house, so we had the feeling that when they are making something, then we are the first in that area...the yellow-star. Everybody was standing. We was...like a guard closed the the door from the house. We was looking out in the night, during the night. Even the people pushed there, there was from this war factory, from this noodle factory a truck. They pushed this the door, not because this was something that saved the house, only a feeling something to make. We have seen people on the street, groups, guarded with Nilos uh people with a with a gun. I think it was...they went on the street with hand up, mainly men in the direction to the corner house, this headquarter. Nobody knows why, which kind of people, Jewish people, so this was the first night. Nobody was sleeping and nobody knows what, what will be the next day. There was order that the...after the declaration, a lot of houses...the people went to take down the sign. Naturally their first order was to put, to return the sign, the yellow...the yellow star was quite a big star, about almost a meter big on the on the houses, and the cur...curfew... what is the...and the

naturally we...that that the Jewish people not allowed to go out from the houses.

There was every house there was a conceriege or somebody who was responsible. Every house was a list with a with a...tenants...how many people is there, who is there, and this was the order that nobody can leave the houses. Uh my husband began to speak about leaving...we must run out from this house. This was not a question to go out, because the conceriege was sympathetic and that was this...a good friend is factory owner and he was able, every every time to open the door and to to make something. This was not a question of where. Where. And this was the first time that my husband took in his pocket our uh second identification what he bought...he bought in the very beginning when when the German army came to to Hungary. He had had a imagination that uh he will be able to disappear when we are when we are taking other identification for the family like Christian people. When I have heard about this and he bought...I cannot remember what was the connection, how he bought this from a Christian family...uh the father and the mother about the same age like my husband and I with two children. Accidentally the name from the children was Peter and I think my daughter was Mariam...__. It was not very far, about the same age and in those time my husband paid paid a nice sum from this but I wanted what to took in my hand. It was something what normal person cannot imagine how I carried with that name and other identification and I thought I will not see these. You must put this someplace. I cannot take inthe hand. IfI__ different name andthey _ different person and this was the time when my husband took this false identification and he put in his pocket and he told he must walk go out from this house.

And I thought no where. I don't know where. I don't know where. There was Miriam. It was October. She was nine years old...big, uh nine months old. Little baby, and my son was two and a half years old, and I thought I don't know where... I'm not able to go on on the street. Where? Where? And he told very very strong, I am going and I will be and he gave me an address, a Christian woman...she was my sister's business companion and uh my sister and my sisters was living in the same house before the...and he told I will be there and there's where you...and he went out with uh with my son. I wanted not to go but he was sure that when he is going out with my son I will blind go after him, not to think. I was putting something in the carriage for the baby and something...] I cannot remember what, diapers...something what I put together and I went with this carriage after my my husband and in this house in a very elegant area from Budapest in the

downtown, but the downtown was very elegant and I went in in this flat. The woman was at home...a little flat, neat, very neat, a private flat, an older flat and the woman was occupied to airing the fur coats and everything for the next winter and we was, and I arrived there like in a trance. She was speaking...I don't know...she told me...this I remember...she told me you know that you cannot remain here because the concereige knows you, and I said yes, I know. But only I want for a little bit to sit down and to think what to make. We went out from the house because there was no place and there was really no place because the concerige was__. I was almost every day there in the in the better time when my sister was living there, so we went from the street, afternoon, late afternoon, little rain and what an idea what we are making during the night uh during the night and slowly slowly it became dark. Then I find out thata goes in from Transylvania. She married a Christian person and she came several months earlier, left Transylvania what was closer to the to the Russian Russian frontier and I don't know how I was able to remember for this address, but I am going this is my only person, half Christian...they they was living like Christian because her husband was Christian, and I thought this is the only address I can go in. Now I I cannot remember which direction, which place was this. I find with , and there was a sub-tenant in a flat. We went in. The lady from the...the owner from the flat let let us in, come in and I told to my cousin that we had no other way. We must remain below some some roof because it is raining and dark and there was there was black-out and cur...curfew and uh she was a very lovely person. She told OK. If you have a possibility, you must speak with this lady from the from the flat, and I immediately find out this...I went on in the corridor and I told that we are living...we are a family and we are living in Buda. I don't know that you get information from Budapest that it is two part...Pest and the Danube and the other partis Budaand__bridges__ two part, and I told that we are living in Buda. We was in the other part, in the part of Pest, and we wanted to go home but the, all the bridges is blocked with the with the Nilos soldiers and uh forbid for people to to cross the bridges. We are not able to go home. We must spend one night here in this side from Budapest. If it's not against this that we remain here in this uh....and she told OK. This room was, I cannot say in feet...it was five __ meters. It is a maid...it was for a maid.

There was one bed and maybe another place like one of the half bed. We made some arrangements for the night. The two men was on the floor, lying on the floor. My cousin and I in the bed, and near our feet my two and a half year old boy, and Miriam in the carriage for the for the night, so we spend the night there. To spend the night but not to sleep, and this was the second night that I was not sleeping for a minute, only to think about what will be tomorrow. How we are....how we can continue tomorrow. We left this house on the second of daylight. Then we find out that this uh...I mentioned earlier that uh this woman where we find each other before my husband was the business company and from my sister. The business was a a lady hat salon. One was in the same house, but another another house after the corner. This was a modern uh shop with toilet and with telephone and my husband decided that he will make his investigation what we can make during that time and he will spend the night in this shop. The woman will close the shop and he will be inside and I thought OK and I am going to look after a flat like a refugee from Transylvania, like a family who was afraid from the Russian and I am a refugee, refugee from Transylvania. I was without any papers. I went with the carriage and near, near the carriages. My son Peter and I went from house to house. I went in to ask the concierge can you find in this house a free room. I am a refugee from Transylvania. It was...I was never afraid that I am suspicious like a Jews because I was very very uh Aryan type and the two children was blonde Aryan type, like Hitler looking. And I went from house to house knowing this was no __ house. The...what can you say that the...it is not right here in this house, not free uh free room to to let it, but here, there is a family, a couple with a child and a very big family and the woman is a very good woman. She is working in the Hungary in the Red Cross. It was not the best thing for me because the Hungarian Red Cross was very anti-Semitic, but she's a very good woman and I am almost sure that if you are asking personally she will give you temporary a room because there is a lot of room. I went up and I was speaking with this woman and she was very kind. She give me in in the flat, there was a room with a bed, a big room, a big...very big rooms, these old fashioned houses. So I get their roof. This was maybe noontime, something like this. I was able a little bit to rest but I was not able, not to eat, not to think about to eat something. I...even I can cannot remember what I gave for the children.

Surely I gave something. Surely I put something in their carriage. It was in early evening when came back the husband from this woman. They invited us to the uh dinner and I was not able not to eat. It was a little bit maybe suspicious that I am such uh stressed that I am not able to speak. I apologize that I have had from my things I hid all of it and II was able to swallow a tea, and this was...and they were speaking that tomorrow you must uh go to the to the office where all the all the refugee people will gather identification and everything and I put a story that uh I left the same little town in Transylvania from from where my cousin where spent earlier, earlier what I was not and I told I am, I was living in was the name from the little town and my husband is in the military service but I don't know...several months I didn't get any message from him. I don't know which place he's in and it came out, this was my story that uh accidentally there that was a a truck, an auto with several people who was facing to Budapest, and they told me well youcan__ with us to Budapest. We have some place to to pick you up, and I decided to get to Budapest with this uh with this uh uh with this...not truck, truck...and I arrived to Budapest and now I am looking for some friend from my husband who is, who will will be able maybe to find me a place to live. This was my story to give to this person. And then it was early evening and we were were strolling a little bit in the in the big big flat and I don't know how it happened that uh my son came in alone. Immediately I have heard that terrible screaming and I ran what happened with my little son and a woman saved me. I wanted only to help him to make peepee. I saw that he wanted to make peepee and my son was screaming and I thought oh thank you very much. Will you the help to the to wash, wash the children and I told thank you. I will make alone. She wanted to see the children, mainly my son. Only she wanted to help me.

She wanted to to make a bath, and I thought thank you, I will make it alone. Thank you. I left to her the little bit to Miriam. You understand what I was meaning, so they went to...I had put the children to sleep and I went to the bed and I had a feeling this is not the place for me. I...and this woman is suspicious. She's looking and and asking questions. This is not s place to remain. And what what how can I make out every day. And I was under in the bed during all the night, not a five minute to to able to sleep. This was the third night without to sleep. And I was thinking and thinking what to make, how to make...I must escape from this threat, because this is a threat for me. How can I escape not to make suspicious that I am running out from a very good place, a very lovely person. The second day I was standing near the window. I was looking out. There was opposite another house and I was thinking what to make out to make the woman __ will you go to the office to to arrange your papers. I can help you. I will go with you. And I told thank you, very nice, thank you, but maybe I am waiting because now it's raining and and I must take the little baby's _a little later, and I was looking out. She was standing behind me. This I don't ever forget, this voice...I was looking out and the opposite house was people was moving and she told me now these people there, and I was asking which kind of people is living there. She told Jewish people. I was standing like like I got my eyes in my in my heart and I was able to look. Why can't I...don't really here in Budapest still the Jewish people in our place there. Since the summer time is no more Jewish, not one. I was able to speak...even today I get in my heart a...it was something terrible feeling and I told this woman...this was my luck, in those times that every one every flat was a with telephone, and here was no telephone, and I told this woman that uh I am going down to look a public telephone. I must find this friend from my husband and maybe that I can get a connection that he will arrange a place for me. And this was quite a logical way to go out from the house and I took Peter with me and I left Miriam and I went there. A corner I made and someplace a find a public telephone and I find my husband in this in this shop, this salon and I told to my husband that I am not able to stand this situation. I must came...I must escape from this house. I am in a terrible situation. You must come and play like you the friend from my husband and you are the person to help me, that you have a place for us and took us away from this house because Iam not able to stand this situation. I was not eating third day and I was not sleeping the third day. Then when I finished this, I was coming out from the little shop where was this public telephone and I didn't understand how this happened. I told my address to my husband. I came out and I forget the address and I forget that which... what is the name from this family where I was living and I was standing with the carriage, maybe that I was very wild and I get a panic, that I left my daughter and I don't know where, which house. I will never find my daughter. I forget the name. I forget the street, which number.

Where was this house and I I don't know...never ever I should not more in my lifetime I get such a panic. And I went in the middle of the street and I don't know how was my face, but one or two persons was coming to me...women...what happened, if you can...can we help you with something. And I began to say I am a refugee from Transylvania, and I get aaaroom the last uh night, but I have I have forgot the name, the address. Nobody was able to help me and I thought OK, I will find...and they began to ask which way, which how how looks like this...and I thought that when I went in there was in the middle was the staircase and something I thought and then I thought OK, I will find. I don't know how long I was in this this panic, but I find the house, but I was in a terrible panic when I went up, and always with my with my son. My son was only near me. This was identification what could be a catastrophe when somebody find out that he is Jewish. I went in in the flat and I told to this woman that uh luckily I find this friend from my husband and he thought that he will come to take us uh to a certain place. Thank you for your hospitality. I'm very happy and thank you, and I went in the room and I began to speak with my son, two and a half years old. And I told Peter , Poppa (ph) will come but you must not make any sign. You cannot cry and you cannot speak. Please not cry, not speak. Excuse me. OK. We came back in our home...if you are, if you will not make any sign. Poppa will be here but you will not men...you will not cry and will not say any word. So my husband arrived. He was uh good-looking Christian person and I made _ this and this. I am happy to see you, and he told OK, I have heard about you and I have a place for you, a ticket, and took your children and they are going...I have a little flat for you, and we escaped from this house. Then on the street I told to my husband that I am not interested in what will be tomorrow. Maybe that we will die.

tomorrow. I must go home. This home was not the real home, but it was my furniture, my...I thought to be with the best for the children, to go in my bed and to sleep a night and what will be tomorrow, we will die. I don't know. We will see what will be tomorrow. And this was our our way back to this house. In the meantime the population, there were people from the house not happened anything and we went to sleep and the next day to go through in this drama...my husband, early morning he went out but earlier there was a round-up. In the house two Nilos with a gun came in. Every man down to the courtyard till sixty year old with some one day food. They are going to digging uh traps for against tanks, _ in Budapest. My husband went and didn't went uh didn't go down.

It was...he was young. He was not in this age to be at home like a Jewish person. And I went out and I went uh I told my husband cannot go, and the Nilos asked why. I told he's he's very ill. What is his illness? I told I told he is mentally ill. They told OK, remain at home. So later my husband went out and arranged with the Zionist organization that beginning from this story and other story that uh they are making several children home and my husband came back and told me and earlier whenever I have heard about Zionist organization or something only I have heard that uh in the summer time that when will go a group out from Hungary to Palestine through Romania, we are in this list. This was the whole what I had heard earlier I forget about it. Then my husband came back and he told that there will be a uh children home for is exist. We are...we get the permission to go in with the children and we can work there. And we went. And this was in the

..1t was a very Jewish surrounding but it was out from the ghetto area, so we went in. There was about forty-six uh children, almost the same number adult people like uh like workers is...they are working with the children and the first evening and I take something from myself and I take my typewriter because this was my like sin my hand. If I have heard about to work something, it was always in my mind connected with my typewriter. If I am working, I am working with my typewriter because I was not able to make any other work, so I took my typewriter and it was sitting there in an office room like half from this. Zionist people, my husband was uh knows several people from this...I, first time I have seen these people and uh there was some very peaceful uh discussion about uh when we are taking in in this home the children, which way we will educate the children. Uh it was a quite a a leftist uh influence. I think it was absolute curious for me that while __--s Zionist Jews, Jews...what is the difference. What can be different they leftist or...we will... was absolute out from these ___ and my husband was sitting there.

He was very tight-lipped, tight-lipped. He was not speaking one word. I have seen on the face that something he was not satisfied. Later I learned that this was not the thing what was so interesting to speak about the education, how they are educating the children. So the second day he disappeared and went out and after several hours he came back uh some kind of carriage...carriage uh platform (ph), two wheel and somebody was personally to to pushing this and uh and there was a lot of uh dry noodle from this war factory and uh some some uh margarine, some very important cleaning things, again supplies, games...several very practical things, and he put these in and it was a little bit interesting for the leaders from this group that here is a person...he was not uh saying convert, and he is making what is necessary to make, so to ask the leadership that I have right to buy these or to bring these in, so it was quite an effective uh beginning to work in this in this chil...children home. So in a very short time my husband took in his hand to, how to fill up with children these not to be very care...very careful how many children we can give place or what or which kind of children over. With this, in this time outside from this children home, becomes the the to take the Jewish people all in the all that people didn't...certain area what will what will be the ghetto, but the ghetto was already opened.

The very old people must go in the in the ghetto. The people till uh sixty must go ina certain place like a horse racing uh area. Women in another area and there was a ina block out on the street. Uh children above sixteen must go with the with the adult people.

Below this remain in the house. A woman, women with uh with less than one years old baby can remain with the baby in the Jewish house. So it uh produced a lot of children without parents in these yellow-starred houses. Their mother went in this way, the father there and there was the concierge to be responsible that all these people went, left the house and not remained or hidden in the house. So that began to...that meant a lot of children from one, one and a half year till fifteen, fourteen, fifteen and on without without parents. This was the _ first to make this children's home, to bring in these children in a home and this action made by Otto Komo (ph). Have you heard about Otto Komo. He was the president of the Zionist uh Hungarian Zionist uh organization and he was a leader who get the leadership to to save the children and the the how to say umbrella was the uh International Red Cross to give a section and above this was the Swiss Embassy. From the Swiss Embassy the the help gave with their . Later we learned that he was an absolute perfect savior during all the time, without any uh bit of _____ or or something, but this is another story. I cannot go...yeah...so my, our home became this children home. The two children was in a room...I don't...I I cannot remember exactly because my husband took in almost immediately his brother's wife with two little children and my my sister-in-law, she told you can be occupied in the office. I will occupied with the children, your children together with mine, and I was occupied in the office. I wanted immediately to make lists about the names. There was children and I told who knows who is these children. Must take out if somebody is in the age to tell the name is OK or an other from the neighbor knows that this is this younger child, what is the name. I was such a person to make some organization, some order, and I began to make some lists who is the children, what is the name, which house they was coming in. If somebody will ask or might be a person, if a person, not a , So this began to be my occupation and my husband went mainly out and he goes...he went in the headquarter from this International Red Cross organization, the children from the headquarter was in the or__. This was a very famous uh headquarter for the Zionist organization and this was the source later for the shutzpasses (ph) and the several places including uh uh storage where was where was food for the children homes and everything and my husband began began to work at on the outside. He was not able to sit down. From place to place and to get frequent information to put that information to to look always a little bit farther what to what to what is necessary to made, what and this...he went to see other children home that there is the food and everything is going OK. He was not nominated for this, never. He made this because he has had a feeling that somebody not make this the practically way, and uh so he become to be a a living, moving connection between the several uh several uh I say houses...uh children home or offices and these children homes get permission to remain for a certain time outside from the ghetto, and what Komo take is who was the person who was looking after the house, several houses, empty houses that is good for this for uh , enough place for to make a contract with the owner to rent and this was Otto Komo's work and uh these homes was very very short time full with children, and the these homes was very uh uh not uh not together, not in a certain uh part from the town. It was several very, very uh different places. Then we was living in this house and then began the shutzpass area. Can I take Biss

Q: Please. Take your time. (Pause)

A: Uh lot of uh men who was who was in the labor camp, they came out...there was two way to make a little bit easier the life. One way was to...uh these people was naturally without any uniform. Everybody was in the in the sport...something what they was able to to get and the sign was a yellow band that they are belonging uh belongs to a a labor group.

There was a some possibility...you know there was some uh like a like a secret telephone.

When they somebody get some an information that something will occur is the way that these went like a like a fire that...the information that if somebody will be combatted (ph), a Christian will not take will not go out from Hungary, will not go to Germany because this was the frightening this labor group will will be taken to Germany. Then a lot of big...it is is not uh not like depor...deportation. Like workers group to work in Germany, but not out from the Hungarian borders. That a lot of people was running to the next church to be converted and to get a white band because there was the _ that these groups with the white band, they will remain in Hungary, so it was a a mania to learn the...uh I don't know how to say this, praying some very common praying uh in the Catholic uh way and to con...to be converted. And uh when somebody, the men get this uh this paper that he's converting Jews to Christian, then he get this white uh band. A lot of people made these without the without the holy water. Paid something and get the paper and immediately wasinthe _a little bit back uh uh but it was not so very interesting, so then came out the new uh possibility that if somebody has a a shutzpass, what was a...how to say...a document that the certain person who has a a passport from a from a neutral country or a collective passport or something like this, that he get a a document and this name became shutzpass. It is save saving passes, something to translate. The first shutzpass we have heard about from about Wallenberg, but this was a very elegant, very very noble shutzpass. We had heard only that the Swede con...uh embassy is giving shutzpass for people who have relatives in Sweden or business connection with Sweden, or who has had. Hungarian people was very far from Sweden, and it was very ___ when we have heard that somebody is uh have a Swedish shutzpass.

It was like a like a letter for the lifetime. We was not thinking about to get uh near to Swedish because we hadn't had relatives, haven't had any connection with the...so the the Swiss Consulate begans to give shutzpasses for people who was under under uh...how to say...uh on this list two thousand people who was uh taken in in in a group to go to Palestine. This this group never was able to left Hungary because uh in the meantime...this was, I think the beginning was August or what July...in the meantime Romania made the...came out from the Axis uh not made but it surren...surrendered and uh there was no more possibility to to to make a way through from Hungary through Romania to to the seashore to get a to send a quite a big group to Palestine. But there was this list, and that was a collective passport, like a collective passport and this was the basic to from the Swiss Consulate to give out shutzpasses. So we was between the first uh group to get the shutzpasses because we both , our name, our family was in this uh in this list. The headquarter to make this shutzpasses was in the . This was a house uh what uh created from the Swiss Consulate, because the Swiss Emb...the Swiss Embassy was not uh...it was it was a very tumultuous work, very violent work and it was much better to put in a quite separate house and this became the very famous uh glass (ph) house, this uh . There was uh there uh began to work the leaders from the from the Zionist organization, several prominent uh Jewish person, later more and more relatives and and they began to work and to give out this shutzpass. This was working in in a certain way that these people who went to the to the horse horse racing place, or in other case the women, they was put in a brick (ph) factory. As long they will be uh deport...deported.

Q: Were you to be deported?

A: Waiting for the deportation, not very enthusiastic waiting to go there. And that was several days that that was a possibility to find people, so at all apart from the family was going to the street, this glass house to get the the paper and went to the to this place to show up this place piece of paper that this person is saved. He had uh he had a right to remain here, and this worked. When a person was still there, naturally it was a possibility that he was sent for another place to work, to make against the tanks or something, so it was not hundred percent and this was not such an organization but was working like a clock work. It was everything was accidentally, so the _ street began to give these shutzpass and several days later we was, we get a a certain amount of papers from this shutzpass that youin the __ street, if you have somebody in danger, you can you can make this uh shutzpasses for the names what when you know this is actually in the danger whoever . We get these papers. It was nice to see and I began to make the shutzpasses. We was asking the last childrens who was coming in in the house, who is your...who was taken out from your family, your father, your mother names. We made the shutzpass and we send to the brick factory...

Q: I just want to make something very clear. Were you working in the glass house to make shutzpasses...?

A: No. No. No.

Q: Where and how were you making the shutzpass?

A: We get the paper from the glass house, and I was always sitting in the double...in this children home. There in the little office, there was a desk and there was my my uh typewriter. We get...and we was very happy when we could get fifteen, twenty paper, shutzpass and we asked the children, name your father, your mother and to make the shutzpass and then we find out that this letter from my my typewriter is the same like in the in the glass house, and we was so happy because ___. We saw that it will be very important for the for the Nilos that this is the same source or another source, but we was people grow up (ph) ...1t was still not uh going in that..we and we can live. It was a big happiness that the same letters, the same same style writer...we saw that the real passport from the from the glass house. And I made these shutzpasses, ten, twenty a day. Uh we find uh young, very intelligent intelligence uh boys that was able to tun on the street and to go to the brick uh factory and to ask and these people _.

Nobody knows how many times these was help or not help, because we was not looking after the same person who was coming out from the brick factory, and when he was able to go to a Christian friend or some other way to disappear, it was very OK. It was not...we get back only these people who was absolute helpless. Not a or these people who knows that my children is in this this home, in this very home. So it was not a control how many times these shutzpass helped people or not helped. We get back several shutzpass when we get back that this name was not appear. Nobody appeared in these names. Then we get back the shutzpass. Then we began to work a little bit with my uh ____, uh to wri...to wri...

Q: To erase?

A: To write the name...

Q: You're erasing the name? You're taking...you're changing the name?

A: Yeah. Yeah. To use once more this paper. It was a very careful made work to take out with a...with a to write out the name and to put another name, because it was very big value this paper with the stamp from the Swiss Consulate.

Q: OK. This is a good place to pause. We will breathe a minute...

A: Very good. Very good.

End of Tape #2 Tape #3

Q: We have begun. Will you tell me while, please, while you were typing the shutzpasses, what was your husband doing? Can you describe it and how you worked together?

A: So I think in this time that I mentioned...we arrived the beginning November...uh my husband was in all the time...I cannot remember that he was sitting in the office from the children home. He was in and out, in and out. Only the night he spent there and very little there together in the same office, with eight other people. Uh in the same time, my husband began began to work...how to say to work, to influence uh his uh business friend from the Spanish Consulate who was the the name Dr. Farkas Zolta (ph). I am saying Hungarian way the name and he was the uh legion adviser in the Spanish Consulate.

Earlier he was a business client to my husband but they they became so better connected like only business. He bought uh brought from through my husband! office or something something from...it is not interesting...this was a a good business connection and he was uh for sure he was not an anti-Semite. But for sure he was not a Jew. And my husband...this I didn't heard immediately. I learned this after when happened something that my husband had kept a a idea that there is a neutral consulate, neutral consulate, the Spanish Consulate, maybe that they can help like the Swedish or like the Swiss Consulate. Naturally my husband began to to work to for our family and uh he asked some paper that uh which kind of paper can (cough) get Dr. Farkash (ph) from the Spanish Consulate, what can...what we can use like uh a shutzpass or maybe more, maybe a a passport. But this this uh Farkas___ was a very careful person. And uh a real bureaucrat because he was a lawyer. He was not uh thinking about swindle way what to make. He wanted to make something uh what is a in in the frame of the of the law.

Something what is uh what is looks like logical and uh and uh some . But but the beginning I hadn't heard about this. I was occupied in the children home. My husband was occupied around the town, somewhere from morning till afternoon, late afternoon.

What he's doing, which place he went I didn't know in those times. Lately I have heard about the Spanish shutzpass, but this Spa...Spanish shutz...shutzpass, it was coming out in a very certain way. People who was before the to uh to to be the dep...deported, when the first time when they get...this was the earlier in the and easier way to get a Swiss shutzpass...I must finish with the with the Swiss because this was uh...originally it was a higher higher and it was possible for a higher number to give about thirty (ph) thousand people to give, and uh some how it began...it was the very very uh good stamped paper from the Swiss Consulate, but later several young saviors (ph) find out that another place uh workshop can make the same thing, and to make a made a false uh stamp and to made more and more from this, from this shutzpass. This was a very short time help from place to place. Maybe that later it was not interesting, but every half an hour, every minute was a was a question of life. The the Swedish...oh the Spanish began if I remember...that my husband began to...no...people was caming back from the or individual escaped from the group to put in the brick factory or something...

Q: I don't understand.

A: There was groups to take from the Jewish houses, groups to to bring to to the brick factory. Several people was able to escape from from the group, but it was naturally not a lot. Then...now I know the connection...(laughter)...[ must make a little order in that...uh there exist already for the for the uh Swede protegees was several houses where out, far out from the from the ghetto area, several houses. These houses in the protected area, protected Jewish area...it was a quite a different section from the and there was on the house that this is protected by the by the Swede by the Swedish Embassy. The same thing made made after this the Swiss to put the people who was bringing back and who was not able to findin__a place to put in these houses, these protected houses, and there was written this is uh the Swedish...this is protected by the Swiss Consulate. Later when more and more people was saved by the Swiss that day my husband and the leaders from this uh movement in the in the glass house, that we can make other houses like uh like uh saved by the International Red Cross. This was a little bit crazy because Swede is uh Spain... is aa state of Inter...International Red Cross is not a state, but we was always, we must uh we must think about this __ with the time went we was connected more and more primitive people from the Nilos. The prominent people was going slowly out from from Budapest, not uh not remain as long the Russian will will make something.

So it was, it work and then my husband began to work with with uh we we get shutzpass, our family. We get the passport, uh Spanish passport. That's mean that there was the law if somebody has a a passport from a neutral neutral uh country, he is out from the deportation, from the danger from the deportation. It was nice to get this. But my husband had testing more more possibility to use out after when he made for our family, for the father and the mother...passport they didn't get...only shutzpass, the other part from the family. Then he has seen more possibility to use out these neutral consulate and and to involve in this in this...uh there was some connection between Komo Otto (ph) and the Spanish consulate earlier, but it was uh nothing came out from this and my husband made a a agreement with the Dr. Farkas that if you can influence the charge d'affaires that he will be ready to give out shutzpasses, I will give you a piece of plot, and what a piece of plot uh uh what we, what was in our ownership to like a payment uh and he always wanted to buy this piece of...this was a little, very quite a valuable little plot. He wanted to buy this earlier uh Farkash but there wasn't reason for our way to sell this, but in this, in this time my husband told if you uh could be able to influence the Swedish Consulate to involve this, I will give you this this piece of uh piece of uh building place.

Q: So so he...you were holding...

A: Bribed.

Q: Bribing. You were bribing Farkash with the building lot...

A: Yeah, yeah. It is not it is not a bribing...it is to to make a little bit uh motivated in these things, because uh people is uh was absolute not motivated why I am going to help Jews.

To to make a little bit uh and he was he was very very uh fond for this piece of land. It was a gentlemen agreement, not by in ink and after...I don't know...several days, weeks...every week was a like a lifetime...he wanted to put down this uh in like a contract and we made this contract. I have in my documentation. It was a short contract that uh we are like selling this this piece of land for Dr. Farkash and he wanted a little bit..-yeah...in those times it was uh forbidden to uh Jewish uh uh belongings to to sell, and it was impossible to write in the register book so it was uh more than a gentlemen agreement, but it was making like in a time when we was in a very strong need. He wanted another paper that when we change the situation, every situation we are spending in this uh contract, that we are we are ready immediately to to say that we will never return our worth or to say to leave is that we made this in in a such situation that this was a life, a question of life and death, so there is another letter and they have this that we we signed this that no way when change the the situation, we will take back this this, and this was a value about in those time hundred thousand penge but was about eight years already. It was a...but we was thinking about our life and not the not the belongings. And this made the...motivated Farkash to go in and to make something. I must immediately tell you that nobody in that area was giving so much because he was in in his soul he was involved, maybe that he has forget the in the meantime the the sum or the value what he get. He was working like a person. He was looking that I am able to help, I am able to help and it worthwhile to help people and this I must tell you that it is not interesting that somebody by the beginning was bribed or paid. The main thing what he made, and he made the maximum, Farkash. The maximum.

Q: Tell us exactly...

A: So, they began to give uh shutzpass my husband, and other people...there was several Jewish people uh sheltered in the in the Embassy. They began to make shutzpass with uh photograph, almost the same text like the like the Swiss shutzpass, only it was more interesting with the with the with the photos, that people is uh getting to get a Spanish citizenship. The people...first we give the next uh family friends when he knows where is this and we was not together. My husband make a a list uh the families from this house where where what we lived before we went in the children home near the near the headquarter from the Nilos. There he get the whole list. I I mentioned that every uh signed...uh I become to be uh tired...uh every Jewish house with the with the yellow star, there was a list from the name exactly who is there. My hus...my husband get from this house the com...complete list and he made for everybody a shutzpass and naturally not every every shutzpass was with photo. Only when we find the people, when we find the people then my my husband will give me the photo from the family. He went in the Consulate, made the the shutzpass, and gave back to these people. And nobody knows why. Nobody knows why they get these, because we was...first of all there was not the ____ was that people who is connected or people who have relatives in Spain, and this was more uh far to connected with Spain from Buda...from Budapest like uh Sweden, not a lot of relatives from Budapest was, Hungary, was in in Spain. So the people who get this uh the Spanish uh uh shutzpass, it was quite an exclusive and and elegant shutzpass, much more respectable than the Swiss because from the the Swiss began to be very much, and the Nilos began to uh re...realize that uh it is too much and it cannot be and cannot be uh respectable and uh they began to turn these and go out when they made a roundup, not to accept the...not everywhere but they began to...these these uh tendencies,

. With the most the more respectable was this the Wallenberg shutzpass, the Swedish, but beginning the most was the the Spanish, and that was a a argument what uh Dr. Farkash used, may maybe some breathe that we are the the...someplace was very flexible and it was not a very difficult thing to to make an influence to help to the Jews.

He was very helpful. He was not a hard bureaucrat or far not an anti- anti-Semite. So the most res..respectable was the Spanish, because there was an an argument that the Spanish government, the only government he accepted the Nilos government. The very simple people on the street didn't understand what is accepted and not accepted. This was

something. Gives gives a . The low end was the Swiss uh Swiss uh shutzpass. The next was the Swede and the highest was the was the Spanish shutzpass. It was not a big amount. It began to be more...yeah...it was a certain amount. Naturally when somebody was sheltered, Jews or even Christian there in the Embassy, and he had heard that I had a a neighbor or a friend from my neighbor or somebody use it a shutzpass, there was even, but never was uh there a line to to stand before the before the embassy like before...before the Swiss Embassy there was every day tumult, uh violent people to go in and to ask and to get these uh shutzpass. Almost the same thing but less was before the uh before the Swede Consulate. Here before the Spanish, there was never a line because the people don't know what is what is the way to get this. They...if somebody get it, it...they get, not asked. Mainly maybe that there was several people to ask Farkash or some breathe or I don't know...maybe by luck or can you can you get me, can you get a shutzpass. It was always valu...valuable for for people who was who was asking, but not from outside in a line and violent uh tumultuous uh scenes. This went very very discreet. My husband, when he went out and to give for the for for the people the shutzpass, never told that I am Szamosi or who I am. First of all because in the ____ there's another uh other date because he was...I must here a little bit make order...he was...my husband was in the background and and the key position was for Farkash

. My husband asked something from Farkash __ and Farkash made this, made the influence to get this from someplace. And this was such a shadow work. It went for a certain time when it was a little bit more and more valuable this uh shutzpass and they made Spanish houses for the for the protected uh people, and it was almost the same area...not always. It was it was far from the ghetto, but this was a certain area in Budapest uh in quiet a little circle, and this was became the name the protected ghetto. There was Swiss, uh Swedish and and uh and Spanish uh protected houses. People went in in these houses. My husband wanted to work more effective and there was there was a lot of handicap in the meantime that they already wanted to bring in the children home in the ghetto. And to go in to the police uh headquarter to speak in the in this to to get another term, to hold out the children from not to to put in in the ghetto. And so speak with these people and my husband was without any identification, only that he is a worker to the International Red Cross. There was not written that these Jews or not Jews. It was aa certificate. I get these two who who was working with the International Red Cross. It was a little uh uh like a booklet, hard uh cover and quite __ inside with the with the picture that this person is help, a worker in the International Red Cross. This was an old identification but he hold but he had had a feeling that this is not very much. He can be choosed with this be...like Komo Otto was a head worker for in the International Red Cross and not and everybody knows that he is a Jew and uh he wanted to get some nomination from this uh Spanish Consulate that he is working in the frame from the Spanish Consulate. Uh this was not an easy thing but immediately my husband wanted to put in Otto Komo (ph) to this position, because he had had an imagination that Otto Komo in a very big danger. He said there's known Jews. He he was working always against the the the the wave to save the Jews, and he was a very prominent person and he was Jewish and all his uh identification like a Jewish leader person. And my husband had had an imagination that he, Komo Otto is in a very big danger. And he was speaking with Komo Otto that uh that come in in the Spanish Consulate. You will be in a safe place, in a neutral in a in a neutral consulate. He wanted not to get these these uh personal uh exception or something, because he thought I am I am legal. I am sitting here in my position legal, absolute legal. But it was...he was a little bit , Komo...Komo Otto.

He was a little bit uh look in the future that immediately it will be finished and then I can continue my work and to take the these orphan children and uh poor people to send to to Palestine and to make a a make a new home for the Jewish people, but in the meantime there was...the front was closed but to close it was a matter or something, something like this. Nobody knows how long it is for, and my husband beg...began to worry the very very deeply for Komo Otto. Then Farkash often spoke with to to prepare these nomination for Szamosi and Komo Otto. Somebody started OK, I am ready but what is there what is their rea...what is their basic. I must get a letter from , from the International Red Cross, that he asked me to make this this nomination for these two person. It was not a simple uh thing to influence __ what was much harder, a very...how to say, tough bureaucrat. There was...uh Komo Otto has a lot of fighting with the with uh .Bytheenduh__ was ready to give this letter, to send this letter to someplace, to the Spanish Consulate, and they get a letter | have in my my documentation that the Spanish Consulate nominated uh Szamosi___ and Komo Otto like a a co-worker or officer in the in the frame in the Spanish consulate. It was very important for my husband because while...have you some question?

Q: Explain what you mean by nominating him as an officer in ?

A: (Cough) When here you don't know this when somebody was...an an inside worker in a in a neutral consulate. These people was uh accepted for for any uh inside. They was free to go on the street and and to arrange things. This I have forgetted that this this was a madea__ to go in in several office uh police office or ministerium (ph) or something to speak in the in the interest for the Jewish people, so they get this uh identi...identification. Komo was not ready to use this. Still he he saw that he will take uh several several rooms in the Ritz (ph) Hotel. This was not bombarded, that there will be the... immediately after the war there will be the officers to organize the groups and so on and so on. And my husband everyday told me but hear this, these several days, what will happen. So this was this was always an like a mania in in the mind for my husband and this and this person is in danger, personally. So when they when they get this nomination...this was in mid-...I think after one day, two day the left Budapest.

And this was a very nice day because there was . He get a breathe that I have no more boss. I must look influential and ask and to and to make the whole the whole ceremony to get something, almost and once more I am I must uh say that he was not a heavy person, .-helped, he was helpful. Uh but it was a very nice uh situation.

We are here. The Embassy is here. The stamps, the papers, everything is here what we what we need, and we...and we are free. We can make what we want without control. But uh Farkash___ was a law...a lawyer. A person he was not a partisan. He was responsible to to make something in the Legion forum as it was OK we were free to make, but if somebody will ask that where is the where is this charge d'affaires, then then we cannot be uh Spanish, I the Hungarian Farkash or you the Hungarian Szamosi.

And uh that was like I told I had heard...now I can hear my husband's voice. He told that Farkash happily told me that you know in our house there is an Italian. He will be good like a like a Spanish. Who knows that he is Italian and not Spanish. The name is quite good...Per...uh Perlasca. He will be the boss and so Perlasca became the boss. His was the nomination. This was...and now I must...if I am not going to wait to Perlasca because it is another uh but uh when the first interview about...after the when he get in the

, the writer's gentile and every honor...there was a big interview in the Jerusalem Post and I wrote this uh...I was very...at first I was laughing on this on the situation, but I became a little bit bitter but this isa __ story and I did speak about this, that I was earlier too, so he told in this interview, Perlasca, that the first day I awake...I awake a nice day that uh somebody's left Budapest. The first day I didn't know what to make, but later I came in like a fish in the water, so that means that the first day he didn't know what to make but it was not uh very much to make. My husband was very happy to get somebody who give him a a to to help his uh appearance, and there remains the diplomatic car from the Spanish Consulate. My husband was a chauffeur what in those times was not every day. Not every people was a chauffeur because in those time was very few car and very few uh gentlemen chauffeur, but he was always work uh working with the car and he was a chauffeur, and he was happily he took the car and put near by Perlasca and he went there every day too to look after uh children homes and what need and what and which paper, who needs some shutzpass, what is the name, uh where is this people, and it was a big help with the car to make this and not on foot, but earlier he made on almost every day by foot. And he put that Perlasca that too I have a big help because he was able when when that he went in in a police station that I am here with this Spanish uh charge d'affaires and he was able to speak, because earlier once he was uh uh making a very difficult uh agreement with a police, in a police station for a children home what was surrounded to put in in the in the uh ghetto...my husband was alone to speak with this person that here I have a paper from a higher officer that this children home can remain in the place till 24 in December and this happened uh one week or ten days earlier, and this was a uh this uh uh argument between my husband and police uh chief there, and this was the only uh day when the police chief asked who are you. And then he take the paper from the Spanish Consulate that I am an employee, employed in the Spanish Consulate, and to this appearance it was a big help that he was able immediately to say that I am here with the Spanish charge d'affaires in this thing to arrange to arrange to look after somebody who was disappeared from the house, maybe that he is here in this police station or another. And he went every where in the in the children home and the...and to look the the the protected houses for a certain time with Perlasca, but for a certain time. Later Perlasca was not very much interested to to go out because the the whole situation was more and more dangerous plus the bom..bombs because it was more and more closer the front and every day, almost every every hour was uh non-stop bom...bombs. So he was not uh...he left out slowly slowly from these these activity to see the and to take uh food or something. It was not his work. My my husband knows where is the storage from the International Red Cross, where is the food. The food was mainly some margarine, some mainly milk powder but was like stones what was necessary first to to make a powder from this, some uh uh very simple uh medicine and bread. The bread was very important. Naturally it was not in a very hugh amount but uh they made a agreement with a bak...a bakery who was ready I think hundred or some amount of bread to make every every day for the International Red Cross for the uh what my husband parted with the Spanish uh uh protected people to...because these people wanted to get a good paper when will change the regime that they was helpful for for the Jewish people.

So it was a...to to be protect, to be protected when the change will come, so there was a... don't remember...I think in the but it is today not interesting that it

in the memoir that where was the storage and and where and this uh bakery where where my husband was able uh to get some food. Later...this was the only bakery...uh to get some some bread and my husband took into Spanish consulate because there was the storage for food not very very uh luxury food but to to survive but the bread was an every day ration. So...yeah...

Q: Let's pause a minute because I want to be...I know there's a disagreement about Perlasca and I just wanted to be clear. Uh you feel that your husband initiated everything and did everything and Perlasca was only along...

A: He was a...he gave us support. He gave us support for my husband because he was sitting there and he gaved for my husband appearance that some more and more and more stress that I am here with somebody. Later he was not ready to came out then uh what was often brought in in the house, not . Somebody was asked for for Farkash to to bring in in the Spanish Consulate in the building several gendarme. You know what is gendarme people? These was the most brutal police people from from the countryside.

These people was not working in Budapest, but the most most brutal persons. And uh it was a little bit uh not uh comfortable for my husband and there was several Jewish uh Jewish person but it...now I get the picture but that in the in the Consulate there was another section for the Christian people. Refugees, Christian refugees like Perlasca, Italian and I don't know who others, but this was separated.

Q: Did you know about this at the time?

A: In those time I did not know about this, no.

Q: We need, for this interview, we need to talk about only what you knew at the time. Not what...

A: Sure. In those time I didn't know this. Only I I I know that that Farkash all time was always very very careful what he is making not to make a big uh a big advertisement that we are giving uh even after when somebody's left the house. He was always always very careful not to make a big a big advertisement we are giving out shutzpasses. This was a very secret, very very very uh bad action. I had heard from my husband about Perlasca when when they was very happy to...he was very happy that I have somebody to go out and then from the residents, from the every day residents, slowly slowly went out the name from Perlasca. It was not a...my husband began to be more more uh he get more uh more...he get in more in this in his actions and he went alone. He was not alone.

Never he was alone. He was putting in the car uh somebody to take from this place from another place, or a Jewish person from the from the Embassy to bring to another to the where is...to the uh uh headquarter to the , or to give several lift to give for several people and when when uh Perlasca was not ready to co...to came out, then my husband influenced these these uh man from this gendarme to sit near near by, near my husband. This was a very picture that somebody is going with a gentile. This was not . This went in this way, so my...one day my husband came home with a big bandage on the on the head that he went out from the...every every uh late evening, early afternoon, my husband came home limping...there is not connection. I with the children left the children home in a certain time and sit in the middle of in the middle of November or late November because the tendency began to be that this there was the paper that all child...children home must be in the ghetto uh 24th December. Then it was a tendency to make less people to remain in the children home, and uh my husband began to inform the people who is able to go in to this...well to find some hidden place...go out from this because this home is no more safe, no more than 24th December. They must put in in the ghetto. And a lot of people who was in the meantime...as I am speaking this story...there was some periods about I | think this is written in the memoir because I neverI madeaa__ how many people, children is there. Hundreds and hundreds children and more adult people who jammed jammed out from the ___ and ran back, escaped some individual way and was coming in the in this house to get one night shelter to or to find the children or to find the the woman or only to find a roof for a night. And my husband began to say to these people it is not a safe place. If somebody has to have the possibility to disappear, then when not with uh Christian paper then there then in the protected ghetto with shutzpasses, uh Swiss or Spanish shutzpasses and only the volunteer people can can remain here with the children who is mainly every woman who has no place to go and not want to be in the pro...protected houses. This minimum people will remain here and we will see what will happen after 24th Nove...uh November and in the same time my husband finds some some somebody who finds for us a empty flat in an earlier Jew's uh family and we became a...we became to live with this uh this second identification what my husband bought in the very beginning and I wanted not to see that I will live with another name, another identification, but this was the time when this was the only way and we went in in a house in uh near to the to the Danube, a flat like a Nilos family, this Christian name and and we get this flat. We was living there for a quite a short time. I don't know exactly the date...it was Christmas. On Christmas Day. He is so much lying, so much happening in this very short time that almost I am not able...my husband always ask asked me to write down during the all life time I was not ready to write all this, because I rather not to go in in my head and heart to to live through this period, and I am not a writer. I am only a typist, so this was 20 20th in December. In the in the meantime every...this headquarters for children children's homes...the people began to be less and less because this was clear that this is not a solution for the to be saved. All these children home and and headquarters and this must must go in the ghetto and the ghetto will be closed. The ghetto is already crowded, terrible uh terrible situation. A lot of...very few uh uh food. To give, to help to to supply these the ghetto was Komo Otto's work and several people who was helping for him and the remains the the children children home only with the children. The little children because when somebody was fourteen, fifteen years old, these children was able to find some hidden place alone, and this was an interesting period. My husband get a...I think I never write on and I cannot remember which cloister (ph) was this that my husband went in and asked papers, Christian origin papers for girls, certificates, born certificate or parents uh uh marriage certificate to...some certificate to to make a person Christian. A born certificate. My husband bring these...I can't remember...this was quite a lot of papers and he get these from a from a clo...cloister and began to ask uh younger woman who is about this age, who can, who can use these. This was born in this age, some similarity some similar age, and this paper was enough to go out and to to be to get a job like a postman was not working, postwoman was not working very much in this but the tram...tramway, tram, electric tram on the street...this was working and there was to sold the tickets, the women work, and the the new the Nilos regime is very primitive. Woman became the first persons. There was no more more ready to work in this very simple work. So that was job available, and these Jewish women went to be a conductor on the tram. Get a hat and a something what was absolute perfect the uh identification for a Christian person so this was a a this was a way to to lower the the the population in these very crowded children home. This was a way the individuals disappearing was another way and the and the shutzpass, but already all these protected houses, it was full, full, full with people but it was not a question that people can live under under staircase or someplace, only inside someplace. Ten person in a room. It was not interesting. It was sure that this is not for a long time, but it was sure that this is not a life-saving. It is only a time _. Never I was able to use this that we saved, we saved lives. We helped to survive from day to day, because somebody went with the good shutzpass, went from one place to another. It was very possible that a gang, a Nilos gang took this, these people and took them to Nilos headquarter or another not very headquarter and to began....where are the Jews, where are Jews and to make the torture and and to make the niceuh ____ what was the only occupation from the Nilos uh uh...I cannot say this was not an army...gangs.

This was the only...there was not very much toto__. Only to make the personal hate and and to laugh on the...the torture people all the night to hang on the trees and with a paper that this is the fate the hidden Jewish people, all people who was hidden Jewish people when...and so and it was every day more and more terror, more and more brutal

Q: Could you tell us what happened to you ?

A: So then remains these that uh my my husband hold the the ...the contact between the Embassy, between the safe houses to bring something, more and more shutzpasses, more...a little food and this was the maximum what in this this situation was poss....possible to make. The front was very close. The fight was very intensive. On the on the street. He he was able to to use the car till uh till a certain day when it is written already that he was was uh get a bomb. Near him was sitting a gentile. In the in the car was earlier a Jewish surgeon, physician. He took this physician for a in a first aid place to put down. That was another Jewish person. He...my husband wanted to put in another place...I don't remember where...when I get a splinter for a bump. That was a time that these two people was jumping out. The gendarme and this Jewish boy. I am sure that the gentlemen was not thought about that this is the Jews, and they was uh uh wounded. That was quite...that was two gentile and one was died. That's not right. There was only one and nobody else died. My husband ...yeah....my leaved leaved the gendarme on the street because he would be and could be able get any any first aid or help because he was a gendarme, but he took these wounded Jewish boy, young person, returned to this first aid place to get a a help because he was a Jewish and he was he was hitting in the hip. And uh my husband was wounded here in a place and the piece from the from the...it was blood and and the auto _was like a but the motor was still working and he told me the story when that he was able to to drive and he was holding his head out from the car to see and the blood was running and there was smoke. It was like a film that and he went to the went to this first aid place with this wounded boy and he get there the bandage and everything and he fainted there. And now another story connected with with Komo Otto.

Q: OK. We need to pause. We have two minutes left on this tape. Uh it is very late. Uh I want to ask you if you want to just...we can change tapes and go do a short, another half hour and finish up. Would you like to do that.

A: I think so. Yes. Yeah.

TECHNICAL CONVERSATION

End of Tape #3 Tape #4

Q: OK. We're on. You and I were talking before about uh Perlasca. Could you tell me, explain for the interview what we were talking about and how you feel about Perlasca and the roles of your husband?

A: Yeah. So I have heard the the name Perlasca when I...I had heard the say we have a charge d'affaires. An Italian. It was...I I think the only humorous part from all the history because there was not a lot of part to smile or...but this was this was a little bit like a comedy, that an Italian can be can be a Spain. I had heard not much, not very much on this in this time about Perlasca. Only my husband, I went with Perlasca, with Perlasca.

This was a like a safety belt for my husband. And naturally Perlasca went because he didn't know what he was not speaking Hungarian, so later, several days...this is the whole period this was quite short, short...I haven't heard so much about Perlasca, but when after during the war, my husband wanted from me to write down in his memory, then he he was always very over-joyed with this person in the right time that that was this Italian that he was able to use like a Spanish, like a a Spaniard, like a charge d'affaires. It was a short time, but every short time it was a question of life and and and dying. Later I haven't heard and I today I know that the only person who write down and give gratitude Perlasca, my husband, in my husband's memory, because all the other things, it is all created, these...it is not not interesting. It is a ridiculous, pompous words and and but here is the fact, that my husband and Farkash was very very thankful for for the to find for the fate to find a person who was playing this role, and other uh very important thing that after when somebody's left their embassy, the the power went to the . He was their legion adviser for the embassy, the only person to continue something only to to be responsible for the building and for everything. This was the Dr. Farkash that...

Q: While your husband was doing what he was doing, Perlasca was doing what he was doing, and ...

A: Perlasca made Perlasca made the in about all the Farkash was told we are making these. We are making these. As long he was ready, but not till the end.

Q: OK. Thank you. Now you had something you wanted to tell us about Otto Komo.

A: In this uh this new beginning or...

Q: In the new beginning, we are now where...at the end of December of "44, early January?

A: Yeah. This is this is the very tragic time. Otto Komo prepared himself. He get a a help from the earlier early December, November from Switzerland because as I told I am very sorry but if I am against the history, but Frederick Bond (ph) was a very heavy person.

And uh they asked from from Switzerland a help with more more uh flexible to help and to to take this this uh __ and they arrived in Budapest uh . He was a person...he was he was occupied to be with Komo Otoo and to help to Komo Otto. He was a very helpful per...person, and they made a good friendship, Komo Otto and . Almost every every day they was together. But as the time went closer and closer to the end, my husband was worried more and more for for Komo Otto and he prepared a place in the Spanish Embassy for Komo Otto, a nice, comparing nice office building, uh telephone, everything because all the building was empty. The people who was uh refuge refugee there, Jews or Christian people was under shelter, because almost non-stop was the bomb, bombs. And my husband began to speak very serious with Komo Otto. Come in in the Spanish Consulate. You can continue the same work. You can continue your your connection. There is telephone and and come in because you are in danger in the Ritz Hotel. It is more and more uh shining that he is living such a...he was not a pompous person. He wanted to make in the Ritz Hotel an office for the for the...to send the people in after the war in uh in Palestine. And when, and he was always no...] am I am in secure here. [have here _ and | am in the in the spotlight from the Wallenberg, ,a general come and other neutral uh Portuguese...I don't know the name from the Portuguese. He has had a feeling that he is OK. It is absolute legal in this place. Then my husband began to speak the with the with the wife and to influence that bring in in the Spanish Consulate, so this was a very from my husband because he was looking at Komo Otto like a he take care of, he was. He was. He was able to go in the very beginning with the personal group and leave Budapest and he chose to remain there, like the Jews. Not a very few lived there, Jews lived there. Was able...not quite a few but I think no one was ready to make the choice that I I can leave Hungary and I remain because I have a a work to make this, so it was really in the like a romantic hero, and my husband was very very fond for Komo Otto. So it went this influence as long as he was ready. The 31st December that my husband will will go there and will bring Komo Otto and the wife in the Spanish Consulate with their belongings. This was the very day when my husband earlier went to to make this tour to put this physician to the place and then get these bumps and he remains there uh uh un...unconscious, my husband, there in this first aid place. Several hours he was lying there and then he came back and ___ was the motor was still working and he was able to bring the car back to the Spanish consulate.

His uh head was full with blood, with a big bandage, and he bring back the auto and and the very place the auto died. No more work. It was a miracle that it was able to bring back. I..and the next day my husband...yeah, my husband called from the from the embassy Komo Otto that this happened in the mean time. I was not able to bring you because this and this happened, but tomorrow morning I will find a car and I will go to bring, bring you in in the Spanish Consulate, and this was the OK. And this was the very evening, 31 uh 31 December evening when there in the hotel was standing Komo Otto together with the _ and the and the wife...came in two or three Nilos person and they was speaking very polite that we wanted only several question to to ask from you and would you be ready to come in, to come out from and he went out from and he disappeared. He was kidnapped and how he was tortured it is no question and no fantasy to think about this. The second day that my husband called that I am ready to bring in the...the woman told my husband he disappeared. And there was no way to...there was no way to ask questions. Naturally my husband asked Wallenberg to ask, to look somewhere, someplace, some police station, some Nilos uh uh headquarters. No more.

And this remains in in my husband's life like a a something he was never out from this that he was able to help. He had seen that this that this person in in such a danger, and it happened that he was not able to help. That what he made when he went to Israel. First of all, there was not any credit in his behalf on Komo's name. Nobody was interested.

Nobody knows about who was Komo, what, what happened. Most of Hungarian people was not interested because a lot of Hungarian people there in Israel is from country or from from Transylvania.

Q: Excuse me. I need to...we need to stay with what happened during the war. You need to tell us briefly what your husband did in Israel, and then we need to go back and finish.

A: Sure. These these uh this was the most tragic day in our life, when my husband came back home even in our home and he told me Komo Otto disappeared, and then was the feeling that every person, every minute, everywhere can disappear. It was not a question before. No more, no more leader. No more to ask somebody to help. The only person he managed to help it was Wallenberg, and no more other, because there was uh diplomatic persons who was not coming out like it is not a to mention Shalutz (ph). He was help everything but personally he was not going to to to making...to be uh in touch with the Nilos people. He was not ready for this. . Even not "

Q: You said Wallenberg helped. Uh tell us about Wallenberg.

A: In those time I was not very in...informed what he is making, only I knowed and I have heard that Wallenberg was ready to go after the people, not only to give a paper and goodbye, you are you are going away with this and help these people, paper 5 Then he was personally ready to to be touched with with the with the brutal uh uh low lower ranking people till the ministers and everybody, and to speak with with the whole uh possibility to the welfare for the for the Jewish people. He was the only person, he was make he made this personally. Not by letter. Not by uh sign a a piece of paper personally. This I have heard. And this was the uh example uh this was like a a...Miriam, help me.... (say it in Hungarian)....uh . (Example). Exactly. This was the example how what other persons can can make like (cough) when there in

...this is a other uh other section when when the death march went to

.-he sent his people on the way to help and they helped people. He went...I don't know personally or even his people to at least that these people is saved by the Swede uh Embassy uh Con...uh Embassy and these people I I have right to to bring back.

Immediately their the brain-trust in the Swiss Consulate began to make the same thing.

Then it was and this was the example and to send the the the note and peoples and peoples to bring back people and in in the way to help or to bring some uh some people what is possible from the death march. The __ was active immediately after is the Spanish Consulate. Then we can make a list for our person and my husband gave to to Wallenberg when your pers...personal personally was somebody from from your help go, bring this with. This is another list, and these were these went in this way the work. It was a little period when my husband was ready to go personally to , very risky for a Jewish person, but it was everything was risky, even to live in Budapest was risky. But uh when came out that Wallenberg told my husband you remain here and when the people came back, you can you can arrange from the wagon to to bring back some place.

Uh Wallenberg sent his person personnel to bring back the Swedish people but there was International Red Red Cross, then Swiss and Spanish. This was...this remains for my husband, and my husband took the people when somebody was able to go on the foot it was there was a very very terrible uh uh situation. These people after the death march and to back with uh with uh train naturally like a like a cattle...

Q: Let's let's...I need...let's pause a little. Let's tell...bring it back to the end of the . We need to know what happened to you and your husband as the war drew to a close. I need to know how the war ended for the two of you.

A: Yeah. The war ended in in last several days, because it was like a . There was the 15th of January in January, the Spanish Consulate uh 16th of Jan...January when...the last week my husband went, my husband remains there in the in the Embassy. He was living there because there was the front between us and it was impossible to go on the street and uh he remains there and I was with my children and in another place in the very middle ofthe _, so my husband was uh...I must use this...the get the freedom uh 16th of January and it didn't get 18th...two days later. It was not a pompous thing to uh...soldiers was coming in in the house and look after...there was several auto on the courtyard. They was looking and I was looking that the there was some very interesting hats, _ furs, and and I went down and I asked because uh my family was not never in the shelter. We was always in a flat. I wanted not to go in the shelter because my my son...and uh I went down. My sister was...my sister, my hus...my husband, two children and I, we was in a ina flat. And I went down and I was looking this person and he was very and Iam asking Hungarian andhetold, _. I didn't know what is, what is the meaning _. This was Hungarian _. I was not very very uh sure that this isreal___ and I'm asking Moscow and it was Siberia. Oh, I said. So long ways to go to give our freedom from Siberia...this was real . | was very happy and he took out a box uh a silver box with cigarettes...somewhere I get that, and he took a cigarette out and I was a smoker and I was looking the cigarette because I was since a long time without cigarette, and he give me a cigarette. I was taking one with my shaking hand and he took another, andI was _, and run out and I am shouting...here is the Russian. Here is the...we are free. We are free. The day after...in this flat we was living together with two young persons. There was another room that was in uniform Nilos uh persons but to to make short the story, this person was Jewish person with Nilos uniform. My husband find out almost immediately that this is Polish Nilos and I was fighting a little bit...it is impossible so perfect a good uniform and so on and so on, so my my husband told be quiet. This person is with the Nilos and he was a little way uh friendly together but I get this letter from my husband that this person must be Jewish, very elegant, Nilos but Jewish, and I run up and I open the door and I am shouting at the boys...here is the, here is the Russian army. There was coming out immediately told me don't uh call me in this way because I am this...don't call me in this way...(laughter)...and my husband told me before we separated when something happened not to be the first to to say your real name. Maybe that the front is a little bit moving back one day. It is enough to kill people.

I was standing there with my false name and I was not able to say that I am not this.

(Laughter) And this was the first day.

Q: Because of the time and the tape and it is late, can you just...it's a wonderful story. Can you just tell me please how long you stayed in Hungary and when you went to Israel and then when you came to the United States?

A: Yeah. So after the war (cough), my my husband began to speak about to immigrate...

Q: Excuse me. We have to pause for one moment please.

TECHNICAL CONVERSATION

Q: OK. We're on. The tape is on. Would you just tell us please after the war...very briefly, where you went?

A: So after the war we went...we return in our uh uh flat. My husband continued to work with the with the Red Cross, International Red Cross because the two...because the two delegates was not...it is OK?

Q: Yes. Keep going. Just

A: When uh...I don't remember which time we get...you hear about Wallenberg disappear. I think we saw that he went back to Sweden and uh we was not uh not thinking about that he is something happened. The last uh time uh that was an agreement between Wallenberg and my husband to say all this was uh less and less people between Wallenberg, Komo and Szamosi...it was the people disappeared, voluntary or or disappeared by their hands, from the Nilos. And they remains together and there was the very last time uh Wallenberg and Szamosi was speaking about this and what will happen when the Russian army arrives our home, then they they was speaking about that about the first thing will be that we are going to the headquarters, to the Russian headquarters and to ask help to help uh these people from the ghetto and and the children in the children home, very very terrible uh...and to ask to to to tell what we was making and to get some help from the Russian army. This was a very naive uh program. So Wallenberg disappeared. It was not a...we didn't know immediately. There was no more telephone, and very very difficult connection. My husband continued to work with the children home because there was one or two place where immediately when the Russian army arrived here people was running out and left the children without any help.

Everybody was thinking about myself, about to see my home, my family, to find my belongings...and there was one or two home where the children any help. My husband asked his uh uh brother who was a physician for children to come with me and another person, an elderly woman...she was a secretary in my husband's place...to help to give the children out and to put in some hospital or something. So he worked with the with the Red...International Red Cross till I think end of August or beginning of September, to help these people. We was living and began to live a new life after the war, but my husband always wanted to immigrate but I was one sickness to the other, operation and everything, and so when the time till uh "49, and in "49 we left Hungary...what was another miracle with all the belong...belongings and we went to Israel.

Q: How long did you live in Israel? How long have you lived in Israel?

A: Uh from uh from uh "49 June. It is 41, yes.

Q: Can you tell me about your your family now? You have you have two children...

A: I have accidentally three, but the third is not I born. My sister had and this girl was ten years old when my sister died. But she was always very close to us and she was so...she is our very very girl...she is living in in...if 1 am abroad I am saying in Budapest. After after 45 years, I am thinking about Budapest.

Q: When did your husband die?

A: Uh four and a half years ago. 26 January.

Q: Is there anything you want to add...we have about two minutes. Is there anything that you want to add for the record and to put on the tape :

A: I don't know. I...maybe that I have a lot of things to to add but in this moment I think I have not any actual something what to to make a point.

Q: Mrs. Szamosi...thank you very much.

A: I must say thank you for....

TECHNICAL CONVERSATION

End of Tape #4

Conclusion of Interview