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Q: Engineering. Why wouldn't they let you go further?

A: Discrimination. It was in the same level like in a ghetto. The Jews were sitting on one bench and this was sitting on the other bench. This was what I know, I was studying building engineering. This is what I went and worked for the Germans in the factory

Q: When you were growing up in the town, do you remember any overt instances of anti- Semitism?

A: Not--you see, it was--let say--the big holidays, on Yom Kippur. We went to synagogue and there were foolish guys on bicycles who were driving on the road. The chief cantor went out, you know they got the special, special---

A: Yeah.

A: One guy grabbed this and run away. We were in a socka club. You know we are not too religious, we were standing outside. We saw this old On Yom Kippur with the bikes, he went across. We called this and they were building a road, a road from concrete bricks, like this, square bricks. Then the fighting, we killed one guy.

Q: You killed one of the guys? Yeah.

A: But this was outside of town. It was quiet. Nobody knows about it.

Q: When did you get, did you get recruited into the army?

A: I was recruited in the army.

Q: When did this happen?

A: In 1934. I was in the army until 1937, three years.

Q: At that time, do you remember, did the people fear the German at that time? Were they scared that there was going to be a war?

A: No.

Q: Did people know what the Nazis were doing to the Jews in Germany at this time?

A: No.

Q: What was it like being in the army, what did you do?

A: In the army, you see, I was in the east, in the east from Poland. I was stationed in Lvov, Lenberg. They got this people what they got a little education; like I got three years college, they put me ina school. They put me in a school and I came out with three stripes. Later, they gave me--I was running a canteen in the army for two years. You know what a canteen is.

Q: Yes.

A: It was the chief of the outfit was a Jewish major. He was the mayor from the city and he was major, from captain is the major, you know. They got two stripes with a star. Myer Schrogga was his name. I don't know what happened during the war with him.

Q: What rank were you when you came out of the army?

A: I got three stripes.

Q: So what is that?

A: How you call this, over here in the army? I don't know.

Q: Sorry.

A: Not an officer, like a sergeant.

Q: Sergeant or something. Non-commissioned? Something like that.. What was Lvov like at that time, when you were there?

A: It was a nice town. Nice, beautiful town. Before the center, the business center from the old Polish eastern parts.

Q: Of the Pale, the settlement there?

A: They used to say it was a Jewish millionaire, Sprechel was his name. When you were fighting for 10 cents, he says if you have the 10 cents, you go to Sprechel ,you buy a house.

Q: So what did you do after you got out of the army in 1937? Did you go back to Rozwadow?

A: I went back to Rozwadow.

Q: Did you work there or what did you do there?

A: We got a little farm outside the city.

Q: Your family does?

A: Yeah.

Q: So you went to work there?

A: I was working over there and the war broke out.

Q: Can you tell me about when the Germans came?

A: When the Germans came? You See from the beginning, let's say for a week, it was quiet. The Poles robbed all the stores.

Q: The Jewish stores?

A: The Jewish stores. The Germans were looking, were making pictures, were making films of this, when the Poles robbed. After when they were over there, maybe about three months, the Germans, all the Jews they throw out on the other side of the river. The San was the border.

They throw them out, they don't care. Some of them went to Ulanov in the little towns, wherever they could.

Q: When they first came, they came to your town, they came to Rozwadow a week after the war started? About, or maybe later?

A: No, when the war started, they came later. The war started in "39 and they came in the beginning of "40deg

Q: The Germans did?

A: The Germans.

Q: The Germans, oh okay. So, who --were the Russians there first?

A: No, Rozwadow was warned of the Russians. The Russians were Luland (ph), from Lulandoof (ph) to Rozwadow, it was about 15 kilometers. Eight, ten miles.

Q: So, the war started, let's see, the war started on September 1*" of "39.

A: Yes.

Q: And the Germans didn't come to town until "40?

A: Forty.

Q: Okay. What did they do when they first got to town?

A: Not too much. Not too much harm at the beginning. Of course, they send in the regular army.

Later when they came in, to start with organization. You know, like the mayor, they took the Volksdeutsch (ph). They gave him a job. The mayor, the Volksdeutsch, the chief of police was a Volksdeutsch. All the top government was occupied by their people.

Q: Were there a lot of Volksdeutsch people in the town?

A: No. They came from Pozran. You know Pozran? You heard from Pozran. This was in the border from Germany. And from over there, they came.

Q: Were the Poles glad to see the Germans? Not the Jews, but the Poles? Some of them?

A: Some of them, some of them not. But the majority, yes. You see, in Poland during the war is big poverty.

Q: Did the Germans enact any special laws against the Jews when they first came?

A: When they first came, the first few days not, but later they came down the laws that the Jews can't go out and they have to have the special armbands.

Q: Were there any other restrictions?

A: No, but between Rozwadow and Ulanov was a little village, a big village, Pisznica, and they make a camp over there from the Jews what they came from Austria. This Deutsch was looking like they came from Austria with everything, engineers, lawyers, high educated people.

Q: Right, the intellectuals.

A: Intellectuals. They make a camp from over there and they were free. They were some of them, what they were in the army, in the German army, Austrian officers, Jews. They took them over there, they got horses to ride. They got freedom. But in the end, they liquidated them.

Q: Did they have a special name for this camp?

A: No, I don't know. No, it was a big camp but they were free, they could walk around. It wasn't a closed camp. Do you remember the camp at Pisznica, it was a name for them? No, it was no name. {Female voice: " It was from Vienna"} From Vienna, no name. Zarzecze was a name.

{"No, but the camp was in Zarzecze.}

Q: Okay. We already talked about the Germans coming to Rozwadow. What happens after that?

A: After that, they throw out all the Jews.

Q: They threw them across the river?

A: Across the river.