Document

LUCINE HORN

August 19, 1996 Gary Covino: Let me just have you start by saying your name and maybe where we're doing the interview.

Lucine Horn: My name is Lucine Horn and my real name is Estelle Rubenlee. My maiden name. I am from Lublin, Poland and presently I reside in the United States since 1950. And this interview is being taken at my home at 4850 Westland in Lincolnwood, Illinois. I offered to do this interview to tie in my video interview which I took for the Holocaust Museum which involved my whole story of the war, Holocaust up until to the days of liberation. This will be just a follow up to what, what happened since 1945 January when I was liberated by the Russians in a very small town in Poland, to which I was taken with my husband after the Warsaw uprising, not the Ghetto uprising. The Polish uprising which took place in 1944, in October and as Poles there was no Jews at that time anymore. We were taken to southwest Poland and dispersed to live with farmers. We were treated as refugees from Warsaw and we also were fighting for the Polish underground. As such the German government placed us with farmers and the farmers had to support all the people that they evacuated from Warsaw. Warsaw was

Interview with Lucine Horn 2 evacuated because the frontier was on the Vistula River. The Russians were coming in from the East. The Germans were on the other part of Warsaw and they needed Warsaw to be evacuated so that there was the frontier line. We were taken to this very small town and placed by these farmers who had no idea about our origins and we had to pretend constantly that we are not Jews. That was, that went on from October 1944 until January 1945. 1 don't remember the date but that was the time when we were liberated by the Russians. The Russians came all the way through to southwest Poland and the Germans were just rapidly running away. The Russians liberated us and came into this little town. We still could not show the enthusiasm of being liberated and show any love for the Russians which we did have at that time and still do because they did liberate us from Hitler. But the Poles were not very happy about the Russians coming into Poland. And they didn't want the Russians to come to Warsaw to begin with and that's why they staged this horrible uprising in 1944 in September when 350,000 Poles were killed, was killed and the city was practically 40% in ruins and destroyed. So we still had to pretend. Even so we were very happy to see them. And we stayed around about a week until we got our thoughts together of what we going to do now and how to proceed. We did want to go back to our home town but it was quite far and of course the war was just happening, the war between the Germans and the Russians and there was no communications like trains or buses. Only that everything was in great chaos. But we said goodbye to the people to the farmers that we lived with and told them that we want to go back to our home town. And we thought, they thought that we were from Warsaw. So it took us maybe about ten days or two weeks to make it. Wasn't such a long stretch but we were doing it mostly by the foot and maybe we found a peasant that had a horse and buggy and he took us a little bit. And we were trying to go back to Lublin. On the way we passed several towns, small and big and we saw Jews come out from hiding so we

Interview with Lucine Horn 3 kind of felt warm towards those people because they also survived. It was a good sign that there was more survivors. Until we came back to Lublin to look for mostly to look for family and friends.

Q: If I could just ask you, you were saying as you were making your way to your home town you would see Jews coming out of hiding and you know after all you had gone through in all those years of the war, I'm wondering if you could describe a little more, do you remember how, you know how you and your husband would react when you would see that. And how you would feel inside. And would you have encounters with these people.

A: Yes, it was a very chilling experience. The cities were mostly desolate. And there weren't too many people walking around the streets because the Germans had just passed through. We would come to a town where maybe there was a square. And on the square people would congregate. And somehow, we always felt who it was Jewish or not. These people were completely different. I mean living in Poland and knowing the Polish people, we knew how the Polish people behave and how they look. These Jewish people were like they are coming out from hiding. Their heads were down. They were sad. They still had the frightened look in their eyes. They were probably hiding someplace. Whether in the underground or being hidden in some kind of a shack you know. They did not appear like the other people do. And we kind of looked the same way I guess. And commonly we just like you know like dog to dog. We had something that pulled us to each other and we started to talk and it's the word to approach somebody was Am Who. Am Who means in Hebrew Am is Nation and Who meant are you from the same. And somehow we saw these people. We saw quite a few of those people. And

Interview with Lucine Horn 4 we just rejoiced in seeing each other, but there was the sadness of having lost everything. So that was more or less what happened but we didn't stay on. We just kept on going.

Q: So you didn't talk to them very

A: Well we just briefly talked to them but everybody was just engaged in searching and doing his thing and we couldn't wait to get home. We had a knapsack and we were tired from walking and not sleeping and, and you know took us maybe ten days or two weeks to get to Lublin. Once we got to Lublin there was a Jewish organization and they were registering all the people that were coming back home. A lot of it was a great influx of people from Russia. And Russia allowed these people to come back. And there were some people coming out from, very few from concentration camps. The majority from Russia and also some that were sent to Germany for work. Like the able bodied, not Jewish looking, females mostly. Because males could always be checked out for being Jewish. Because of circumcision. So we met quite a few people, acquaintances and when we went to register ourselves at this Jewish committee, we found that nobody that from our families had been registered so we kind of already thought that there's nobody there from the family. But nevertheless we tried to establish ourselves in Lublin because we just didn't' know what to do with each other. And people were constantly coming. It was like every day when we went out to a town square you could see a few people coming here and there. And of course being a small town, maybe somebody that you knew. So some friends and acquaintances came. And some were in more need than others. Some were fighting with, on the Russian front and were wounded. Some were in very bad shape physically so we tried to help each other. Also none of us had anything. And my husband met some family, he met

Interview with Lucine Horn 5 sometimes, he met an uncle that our experience with him was not very pleasant. And he tried to help us at the beginning but then he was very busy with his own life, personal life. I don't want to get into it. So actually we were alone. And we just couldn't find a place for ourselves. My husband wanted to go back to medical school. He was third year medical school and he just didn't know where and how. And the climate in Lublin was very unpleasant because the Poles were not happy that some Jews survived. And they were making some very nasty remarks. And I was confronted with this tremendous Polish anti-Semitism. Mostly because I did not appear to be Jewish. And if people met me on the market, or on the street car or bus they would make these remarks to me that oh they are coming back from Russia. Hitler didn't kill them all. And in such a climate I just absolutely could not live even a minute.

Q: What would you do when you would hear remarks like that. Would you

A: Well let me tell you about a very particular encounter because where we lived, we lived always where the Aryans lived, we did, never lived in so called Jewish quarters. Cause my mother was a practicing dentist and we had a lot of Gentile patients and where we lived was almost a Gentile neighborhood. And in the same building where we lived was a lady that was running the laundry service. And she had like a cleaning store. And right after the, right during the war, when the ghetto was finished and we ran away from the ghetto, my mother left a lot of things with that lady. Silver candelabras, all kinds of art objects. Things that were of value. Thinking that if anybody survives and needs the money to sustain themselves during the war, we would just go to her and get this stuff and be able to sell it. I knew all about it because my mother told me where these things were. I knew that I have these things with that lady. So I

Interview with Lucine Horn 6 tried to get some things together and we knew that we have to go to Warsaw because Warsaw is a big town and nobody knows us. And I have to buy some false papers and we have to just go out. So I went to her like in an afternoon and this woman knew me since practically I was 4 years old. And when she came in she says oh my god where are your parents and she started to cry.

Where is your brother and she was crying and crying. And then I said to her, can I get the things that my mother left with you. And she said oh it's all in the attic. If you come back at 2:00 P'll have everything ready. Well needless to say I came back at 2:00 and the Gestapo was there waiting for me. Her cousin was working for the Gestapo, he was a secret agent. And I had a terrible, I don't want to get into it now but I had a terrible encounter with these people. And practically cost my life. Somehow, I got out of it. And after the war I just couldn't forget it. So when I came back to Lublin, there was you know a committee of crimes and, you could really talk about these things. Especially show people that were hostile in doing these things. And I went to, over there to first of all I showed my face to her. And when she saw me that I survived, I knew this woman practically almost dropped in what she saw.

Q: Can you still remember it today.

A: Yes, I can remember it and I can remember. My memory is still good. I can remember what she looked like and she just was very, very upset to see me. And I just said hello to her and I said and I remember what you did to me. And I left and then I went to this place which was run by Poles. But don't' forget that Poland was communist at that time. and it was Burjon Bespeki Vespechaestva and I talked to people there and I asked them what I can do. To this woman.

Because she practically not only cost my life, but I was taking care of my little brother and my

Interview with Lucine Horn 7 husband and they were completely helpless without me. And if something would happen to them I mean they could have never survived without, I was their outside contact. And they told me that there's nothing they can do because I have to have witnesses and if I don't have any witnesses I should just forget it. So I was very upset and then we stayed for a while in Lublin.

And the situation was just very bad.

Q: Let me just ask you, what did you want to have happen at this point.

A: Oh I wanted her either arrested or to have some repercussions. I knew for what she was doing to me, she was probably doing to others and she could have been even doing it to the Poles. But nothing did happen. And we just tried to get our life together. We couldn't so because there was no money and I could not be in Lublin for too long because every stone and every home reminded me of my past. And reminded me of my parents and I just couldn't take it. That was in 1945. I was 19 years old. And we decided that we were going to try to leave Lublin because there was no use of waiting for anybody. We registered. They could find us. And my husband found out that the university that he attended before, he had no papers, everything was lost. That the university's moving from Lwow. Because Lwow was taken by Russia that they moved to Blievitz which is a German town. That Poland took over ok in the exchange for the eastern part of Poland. A little bit to the west was given to Poland. So we decided that we going to go, try to go there and see if he can get into the university cause that was the most important thing for us.

He we got to Blievitz and as it turned out we spent there about 3 or 4 months and it turns out that the university is not coming there, but they are going to Breslau which was a much bigger

Interview with Lucine Horn 8 university that they took over from the Germans. The town and that university from Lwow with all the professors were coming back to Breslau.

Q: And Breslau is in Germany or Poland?

A: Now it's in Poland. Now it's called Breslau. It used to be German. So after living for about 3 or 4 months in Blievitz, we went to Breslau. And in October of that year, my husband met with some professors that knew him. And he was able to get in for 3"! year medical school. We considered ourselves very lucky. I tried to get a job and somehow sustain ourselves you know in order for him to continue but we knew it's not going to be on a long time basis, because we did not want to live in Poland. That was just an absolute N O. We felt that we just cannot live ina country that hurt us so much. And the memories are too painful and if you want to start a new life, it has to be someplace else, not in Poland.

Q: There you are right after the war in this place, as you say where all these horrible things that happened and you say there were memories everywhere. I'm wondering it's just so hard today to imagine being in that situation. I wonder if you could describe a little more what your day to day emotions were like. Would you say today that you were depressed or would you cry. Would you turn a corner and see a certain place. I'm just trying to figure out what that would feel like.

A: Well when we were in Lublin it was indescribable how painful and hard. Because to give you an example to add insult to injury was the fact that the Poles were so hostile. Would we have been embraced by the people that we knew and that we grew up with and with people that also

Interview with Lucine Horn 9 suffered, but not to that extent. It would have been maybe half way bad. But the hostility was just so tremendous. My best girlfriend was pregnant 9 months. She came into Lublin. Her husband was killed on the front. That now this is this woman giving birth to a child. The first child born after the war. In a Catholic hospital. And the nurses just damned this baby. God damn, Hitler didn't kill them all. We have to have a Jewish child now . It can't be helped. I mean this was just unbearable. But after we left Lublin I knew that we had to be strong to survive.

And the emphasis was mostly on survival and how and what to do. All the survivors were trying to just find a way, whether to go to the United States or emigrate or go to Israel. Illegally but do something for yourself because here you are already surviving the war. And you got nothing but your life, nothing else. And now it's up to you to know which direction to take and which way.

It's like you're on an island and you want to save yourself. It was a matter of not saving your life, as much as knowing what to do with yourself. And because we had this one direction that my husband wanted to finish school. He didn't want to go into business. The easiest thing to do was to smuggle and to sell. Everything was still chaotic. So I just knew that we had to, that looking past is one thing and being hurt in it is another. But it's not going to help emotionally because you see we were very young and when you're young you're strong. You take life in a different way. And I just knew that we had to go on, make some right decisions and push forward and we were among people who had the same goal. Fortunately we were surrounded by students and academic people who had the same goals and wanted the same thing out of life, rather than making money and maybe amassing some fortunes by some illegal dealings and so forth.

Interview with Lucine Horn 10

Q: It sounds like what you're saying is the survival that the drive for survival you developed during the war, it never let up. You just stayed in that condition.

A: Definitely. Definitely. The power of survival even for people that were in concentration camps which I never was and even people that saw their dearest slaughtered, there is a certain think in the human nature that really wanted to survive. And you know and I cannot talk about it to other people, but this is what we felt. | And I knew that I have to help my husband and I gotajob. We gota little apartment and I got a job. And, in Bratswath, in Breslau and he went back to school. And we knew it's only temporary but we knew that he has to wait a year just to get his papers. Cause once he gets all his papers that he finished 3 years medical school, maybe wherever we go, to any country, he's got at least something to show. And maybe he'll be able to continue. So that's exactly what happened. We were in Breslau. We lived there almost a year.

He finished medical school, third year, got all the papers and then we decided out. This is it. We really have to sever all our, our relationships with Poland and just erase it from our lives and just go on. And we had no gall. We didn't know where to go. It was very hard at the time, you know to make any, any sense was, with your plans. But then we joined a Zionist group which was a student group. There was about 25 Jewish students, Zionist oriented and we thought that maybe if we go with a group it would be easier for us to be recognized wherever we go. Rather than one individual person.So with a knapsack, the BreiHa was helping Israelis, were helping the Jews out of Poland in that time. In a semi-legal way. Meaning that if you went to the border, to Czechoslovakia there maybe would be trucks there waiting for you and then taking you maybe to Italy or someplace, but it was all kind of semi-legal without any guarantees and with these papers in his hand, on with a knapsack and with very little money we decided to try and we went

Interview with Lucine Horn 11 with this group. And there was maybe about 25 of us. We got into Czechoslovakia and then from Czechoslovakia, they took us, this BreiHa, they took us to Vienna. Because Vienna was a big concentration of refugees and the American Joint has been sponsoring a lot of places. And it was like a transit place, is for people that were coming out of Poland and coming out of concentration camps, trying to go other places. And there was an awful lot of people at that time in Vienna. And Vienna was occupied by all four, but the Americans had a great hand in deciding what to do at that time. And as we came to Vienna, we were aided already by the Joint Distribution Committee to and they, they really encouraged us not to go any further because they said that they would like to help the students. And they might have a way for the Austrians to allow these peoples to study. Under pressure, without tuition because as a, as a part of a reparation of what happened to these people. And that really happened. The Americans helped us to get into the university, get a very small stipend from the United States. Not to pay tuition at the university. We had to, of course, qualify. There was all kinds of Latin examinations and everything to go through it. And have some papers to show. But it was an opportunity for my husband to continue and he fell for it right away. That was 1946. October. They helped us with some living quarters. Of course it was very crowded and we had to share rooms and things. But most of the people were single. There was only another married couple. And us. And we were helping each other. You know and Vienna at that time also had no food. Everything was rationed. So you got a little bit of this and a little bit of that. You put it all in one pot and we had some soup at night. We felt kind of good about it because we knew that we had a goal. We knew that we're doing something for our future. And it wasn't very unpleasant because the Jewish student at that time, we came with a small group. But there were 400 Jewish students at that time in Vienna. And we were all supported by the Americans through the Austrians that had to do it.

Interview with Lucine Horn 12 And we were a great group of people. And we spent 4 years there. It was kind of very,

very nice. Even though we didn't have any money, but Vienna is a wonderful place to live. Even so we felt that we never forgot that they were connected with Hitler and they were anti-Semites.

But of course at that time they didn't' show it.

Q: So that was different than in Poland.

A: Different and you know our hostility primarily was to the Poles, who personally, personally were helping with the Germans. Personally. Here at least we were in a country where they allowed us to go to school. We had the freedom of moving. I could not work. They were very strict about people that are not Austrians, very strict. So illegally somebody employed me for a little bit. And we just had a gay student life. You know. We were young and we didn't need much and we could go to the opera and stand you know on top there and go to a concert and never sit down. You know but it was a city that offered a lot to us. And it was a real bohemian student life that we had. We had a wonderful group of Jewish people and a lot of feedback you know from the Jews and from the Jewish organizations. And that was the four years in Vienna.

Q: Is this, were you able to in comparison to the way you felt for years up to this point, were you able at all to relax a bit

A: Yes, definitely. Definitely. There were other tensions. You know. I mean first of all you didn't' know the language. I, I myself went to university because there was the easier things for

Interview with Lucine Horn 13 me to do. You know and I had to, we had a lot of studying to do in the German language. The language was foreign to us. So it was impossible to study. You don't know the language.

It was very, very hard at the beginning and my husband was under a lot of pressure in medical school because they didn't like foreigners you know. The medical school was gigantic and tremendous and, and they would rather not pass Jewish students and especially foreigners so we had two strikes against us you know. But somehow we managed. It was hard. It was very, very hard. My husband was under tremendous pressure. I really didn't care because it wasn't that important to me. I was biding my time, but for him it was very important and he was under tremendous pressure. Of course a lot of professors were Nazis. And the level at the university was very, very high at that time. And he had a hard time. I mean he had four years of hell because he really had to succeed and get that diploma. In the meantime, people were trying to see where they can go and what they can do. A lot of our students did not finish. Some went to France. Some went to Italy and illegally to Israel. And some just stayed out and you know tried to finish, because somehow I made contact with my family. Distant family in New York. And through pure coincidence, somebody met somebody on a train and we were talking about people in Lublin. And somebody mentioned cousins and to make the story short, I found out that there's a distant relative living in New York, quite well to do. And having a tremendous family in Europe, being from Europe himself. And that if I made contact with him that he would probably be able to help us, mostly in, in securing a affidavit to come to the United States. So while my husband was doing all that, I made contact with these people and I told them what who I was and I told them that we are here and my husband is finishing medical school. And upon the direction of my uncle I call him uncle, we were advised not to do anything before he gets his diploma.

Because it will be impossible to continue in the United States. He has to finish. We just have to

Interview with Lucine Horn 14 stay as long as it takes for him to finish medical school. And that was our primary goal. As I said, life in Vienna was not unbearable. We really had, we managed to have a lot of fun. We wanted to have a little fun because we were in hell for so many years. And our youth was practically nothing. War broke out, I was 13 years old. You know so we really wanted to do a little bit living and, and see what's going on in this world. And that wasn't impossible. We had our ways to do it. And finally we waited until he finished medical school and we waited to come to the United States because uncle said that he will a, give us an affidavit to be able to come to the United States.

Q: There's one thing I'd like to ask you about which is you're with all these other students and people who have survived you living in that kind of big barracks or dorm or whatever you want to call it.

A: It was an old school house. The Germans that they gave us.

Q: I'm wondering if there was a lot of discussion and debate among you all about where to go, whether to go to Israel, whether to go to somewhere else.

A: It, it differs a lot. Some of my friends went to Paris because they had uncles in Paris and they wanted to be with their family. Family was a big factor. Whenever somebody had a family they were really flocking to be with their family. We didn't' have anybody anywhere. A lot of people were Zionists and they really wanted to go to Israel. Going to Israel was not very simple because it was Palestine and you had to really go on an illegal, on those boats into Italy and (no sound)

Interview with Lucine Horn 15 A lot of people were Zionists and they really wanted to go Israel. Going to Israel was not

very simple because it was Palestine and you had to really go on an illegal on those boats into Italy and illegally but a lot of people did that. Some of our students, I must tell you are still living in Vienna and never left. They intermarried and for some reason or other, they were their studies were rather confining to the Austrians. For instance they had all kinds of social studies and other things where it would be very hard to apply it in a different country. You know. We were fortunate because medicine is almost similar or the same all over. So it was all different.

The majority of, of our students went to Israel. Whoever had a chance not to go, opted probably to go someplace else. Some went to South America if they found sponsors. If they had maybe some relatives. Now my husband knew that when he will go to the United States he will have to repeat the whole thing and take internships and he was so worn out from this German and he really was in very bad shape. I mean he was very thin. He was physically and mentally absolutely exhausted. And he said to me that he doesn't see how he can go to a country where he will have to do it all, all over again. With the language and everything and to get a license to practice, it was, would be very hard for him. On the other hand, I myself even so I had family in Israel. And I knew that if I go to Israel I would go home. But I myself was very worn out from the war. I couldn't' take the burden of being a pioneer again and Israel was at the pioneering stage at that time. and maybe it was selfish on my part. But don't' forget that I was 13 when the war broke out. I was the one that had to earn the living. I had the one that had to go to a market and sell under pressure of being recognized. I was the one that had to deal with apartments and Gestapoes and food and everything else. I had a burden of not only to take care of myself but I had a brother who was nine year, nine years younger than I was and I had him for almost a year and a half. And a husband that couldn't' show his face on the street. So I was under, I had a

Interview with Lucine Horn 16 tremendous burden, burden surviving. And I just couldn't' see myself. The thought of, of being shot or the thought of, of having the Arabs there doing all the things that they were doing at that time in Israel. There were still wars there. You know there was the 46 war and there was the 48 independence. And then there was another war. The thought of being in another war or, or hearing the shooting again. It, to me, it was just unbearable. I knew that I cannot doit. AndI told my husband I would like just to come to a country to live a little bit in peace. I just want peace. If later on he wants to go to Israel, if things straighten up, fine. But I have to have a rest.

I just cannot do it anymore and he understood. He said ok let's try. We'll see how it works out.

We will you know we were in agreement. It was

Q: He wanted to go to Israel.

A: He wanted to go to Israel because the thought of being able to practice and be a doctor right away. Israel, just as long as you had a diploma, you didn't have to do anything. They took to the, to the hospitals there. You know private medicine was not there. I mean they never had private medicine. It was all socialized medicine at that time.But you could get a job and you would have to do things. And the thought of him to study another language and starting all over again it wasn't possible. But he gave in to, he knew that I just couldn't do it. He would have a basket case. As long as I was holding up it was ok. But I just couldn't do it. I was a child. And I said, I had such a burden and I needed, I needed some space. So he decided that we'll come to the United States. And of course I had the full support of my family who really wanted us to come here. And my uncle sent affidavits and papers and we waited until my husband finished school.

And we couldn't wait because ten days later we were already trying to get on our DP status and

Interview with Lucine Horn 17 just take off and leave. And when we left Vienna there was still a lot of kids that didn't finish.

Don't' forget he was one of the older students. So he there were kids that stayed and it took them longer to finish or even medical school longer. They were just starting at Vienna. He came in already was three years behind him so it was much easier for him. And we left Vienna and we took off for the United States.

Q: How did you come over?

A: Well that was another story. You see we were DPs, displaced persons. And displaced persons were being shipped to the United States on army transports. Ours was general Bletchford. And general Bletchford was supposed to be a transporter for 400 soldiers. We were 1200 people. And we were going in the middle of November and we had to be taken first from Vienna to a place in Bremerhaven. And there we waited, 3,4,5,6 weeks in a camp until these ships were bringing people over to the United States, back and forth. And there were maybe three or four ships but at that time there must have been 6, 7000 people waiting there in this camp. And of course we had to undergo a tremendous medical, physical examination because anything with a spot on your lung, right away you were ejected. It wasn't like today that people coming with TB, AIDS and everything else. It was unbelievable what kind of medical scrutiny we had to undergo. In order to be able to come to the United States. We waited about three or four weeks in Bremer and then finally we got on this ship. The voyage was so bad that we almost didn't make it because the, the ship was old and we had, we were 1200 people. The food was absolutely not, not even to talk about. And look it was for free, so I mean there was the bunk beds and everything. We just had to go. And we went to Halifax Canada. We had 400

Interview with Lucine Horn 18 people for Halifax Canada. So first we went, it took us about 12 days. First we went to Canada.

Got off these people, that, that were for Canada and they all had papers and sponsors. And we had ten dollars but we had a whole big crate of medical books that my husband couldn't' part with. But became obsolete in a very short time. He had two microscopes that he wouldn't part with. And very little personal belongings. I have to mention that my uncle was very generous and he tried to help us during the our stay in Vienna. He was very impressed with the fact that my husband wants to study. He felt it personally that he wants to help him, although he never met him. He was, my husband was the only one from the whole family that he was helping and trying to bring over here that showed any interest in, in his, in being a professional man. And he tried to help us as much as he could. He used to send us money through Switzerland. My aunt used to send clothes and warm coats for me or whatever they could, they really did for us. It wasn't easy to send stuff over there but they were very nice and very generous. So that made our stay in Vienna much nicer. And we finally arrived at the United States. Well my first impression of the free world was 3:00 in the morning in Halifax in the harbor, seeing a seven or eight year old boy in the middle of the winter all bundled up selling newspapers. And trying to, to tie up the paper to a rope and throw the paper with the rope over to the ship. And then these people were, whatever people had was probably dollars because nobody was going with Austrian money. Then the people would in turn tie the dollar to the rope and throw it back to him. I never saw that before. I came from a well to do home and I really haven't encountered anything like that. And all I knew about the free world are things are so wonderful. I mean the idea of in Europe at that time was actually that in America people are finding money on the street. You know and you were very gullible. The thought of that boy at 3:00 in the morning just never left me. And that was like 50 some years ago. I said does a boy that age at 3:00 in the morning has

Interview with Lucine Horn 19 to sell newspapers like that. And he was very, very pushy. And people were dying to have a paper even so they couldn't read it. You know. But then we arrived in New York. And of course my family was waiting for me. Also we didn't' know each other but we had all kinds of signs, with red carnations and things like that. And it was very cold in New York. New York was not very pretty at that time. It was very windy and we were just absolutely worn down.

From this horrible, horrible trip. And everybody was taken to HIAS which was the Hebrew aid organization but my uncle did not want us to be there. Because living circumstances were kind, kind of hard.

Q: Can I ask you, do you remember or do you have any first impressions or memories of when you came into New York Harbor. What was that like. What time was that?

A: Yes, first of all it was Thanksgiving so already on the boat we had turkey. And I didn't know anything about Thanksgiving and just one good meal was fabulous. And they were telling us the crew on the dock, that they were telling us it's Thanksgiving. And that's a holiday the Europeans don't' have. And I cherish this holiday til this very day and every time I have family for dinner we always talk about Thanksgiving because this is our anniversary of coming in. And, and unfortunately it was also Saturday or Sunday. We couldn't get off the ship but at least it wasn't shaking any more. You had to wait for the customs for Monday morning. There was all kinds of people with us you know. There were very religious people which were coming in with crates of china for holidays and china for, for meat and china for milk and china for this. And it was really funny when the customs opened up those crates and asked them and they really didn't understand what was going on because china in Europe, especially good porcelain was very

Interview with Lucine Horn 20 inexpensive and these people apparently had money and they tried to bring it all to the United States. I mean I didn't' have this problem. We had books and two microscopes. But it was very funny when these people tried to explain to the customs how they had this ritual. Of not eating from the same dishes you know all the time. And then of course it was gloomy. It was dark. But my aunt came and took us to a little hotel for which my uncle paid for.

Q: I'm just curious and maybe this is just me from seeing, reading about immigrants and seeing these films. You always have this image of the boat coming in the harbor and the Statue of Liberty appears. And all that. Did you see that. Do you remember that at all. You're shaking your head.

A: It was so windy that at that day when we arrived a brick fell from some big building and killed a person. You know. It was just a very gloomy unfriendly day on the 27" of November.

And it was so mammoth to us. I mean New York. Just so mammoth. I've never. I lived in Vienna which is a big city but this was just unbelievable. And of course the language barrier too. I took a few, knowing that I'm going to be in the United States, I already took a few courses. At the University. But that's a differ, that's a different English. Maybe in London I would feel better with it. And because among all these people that came off the boat I was the only one that knew a few words of English, I always had people with me, trying to go wherever I go because my uncle got us a hotel room. But the meals, we were supposed to go back to the HIAS 3 times a day for breakfast, lunch and dinner and we had to travel by bus. | And we had to find our way from the hotel to 425 Lafayette Street which I still remember you know. And there was some other people that stayed in the hotel and every morning and every afternoon I would have these

Interview with Lucine Horn 21 cohorts with me and the taxi drivers were very unfriendly. When I asked them which way we can walk or can we take the bus, they said no if you take a cab we'll take you there, but they were very unfriendly. And while we were in the HIAS every day some American Jews tried to come in and ask us if we want to rent a room, communicating in Yiddish. And also because at the HIAS there were people from all over the world, Jews. Speaking all different kind of language. Well we encountered that in Vienna too. There were Romanian Jews and Hungarian Jews and they were Latvian Jews and Polish Jews and you know Jews just don't' get along very well. Everybody has a different culture. Everybody grew up in a different place. And there was a lot of fighting between them. And then all of a sudden a lot of people came with little children and the grownups had to look either for an apartment or for a job or anything. The children were completely lost and they needed a nanny for those children. So they got me to work with these children. Every day I would go there in the morning and have my breakfast in this mess hall. My husband would go to, to Park Row which was the physicians committee who was trying to find internships and residencies through the United States for these Jewish doctors, providing that a community would offer for about 2 years or so assistance, monetary assistance to these people because these people could not work. And some of them had families. So they had to find a community that wanted to support this given doctor while he is in training. So my husband had to go there in the morning and I was working at the HIAS with these children. And because I speak a few languages, I could communicate with these children. And for that I was compensated with $25 a week. Well that was already very good because with the $25 a week we could go to a movie and listen to English. First of all it was a great thing to go and listen what's going on. We also bought a radio because we were putting in quarters into a radio at the hotel and that paid for 20 minutes. So we figured out well it's an American idea you know. You put in

Interview with Lucine Horn 22 a quarter and the radio plays for 20 minutes. We, we it took us time to figure it out but we wanted to hear. They told us just to listen to the spoken language. So finally we decided to buy a radio. We bought a radio for $25 and we listened to our own radio. So we, we made an investment but we didn't have to put in the quarters any more. And we just waited. It was a waiting game at that time. Going to the hotel, coming back, getting a little bit acquainted with the area. And of course my aunt and uncle always had us over for dinner. I mean it was Friday night. They lived at the Riverside drive in a magnificent apartment. They were very wealthy people but very generous. They came here during the war, but they already had a lot of businesses and money in Switzerland and they had a tremendous, tremendous family in New York and they were trying to help everybody. And going there was like a, it was like a fairy tale world, you know. Because they had a magnificent apartment overlooking the river and they were traveling a lot abroad. He had businesses in Korea and Japan and all over. My aunt being a very tiny little aesthetic lady with servants and a chauffeur and, and beautiful things at home.

Well to me it was really like, like a fairy, fairy land you know. And we were going there for dinner. And in a very subtle way she would put 20 or 30 dollars in the pocket of my coat because she wouldn't want to humiliate me to give me the money you know, which was probably different from all the other people that came over here and maybe experienced family relations here you know. I just had very good, very good feeling and a very good relationship with them. She always asked me if I need anything. And I said no we really don't need anything. We just have to wait. We have enough food. We just have to wait until something happens that my husband gets dispersed to someplace. And of course we were in a different group of people because other people didn't' know what to do with themselves. We had it a goal. We knew he has to get an internship and of course we wanted to stay in New York. Because we didn't know

Interview with Lucine Horn 23 there was a United States. We just knew that there is a New York. And we had a few cousins and my aunt and uncle and we wanted to be in New York.

Q: So were you getting used to the city. It wasn't as intimidating then or it still was.

A: It was In, we were there six weeks and it was intimidating. It was, but you know you get a little better feeling of what's going on and we were told that we cannot stay in New York.

Because all everybody, all the doctors wanted to stay in New York. And there isn't enough hospitals in New York. And we were told that we should maybe consider going to a small community which is much nicer, where the people are nicer. Where you can really you don't feel so lost. It's more like a family. Well the committees are there, the Jewish committees.

Everybody was trying to help the refugees and the Jews had come over. Everybody felt a little bit guilty you know that that they were there and they survived and they weren't punished like we were. So after six weeks they found a very friendly little community in Rochester New York, who was willing to accept a Jewish doctor and help him out. And they found a hospital that would take him in as a, as an intern. Cause he needed two years of internship. And one day we got on a train that was 1950. We got in a train in New York. We said goodbye to my aunt and uncle and on the train we came to Rochester New York. Well the first thing was that we couldn't' get off the train because there was that much snow. New York had, didn't have any snow and we were just in shoes. We didn't' have any boots or anything like that. So that was difficult. We had to go out and buy a pair of boots. And the committee was very nice. They waited for us. And they already had a little room rented from a family that came in, in 1939 and it was a German family. And they were two working people. They had an old house. And Interview with Lucine Horn 24 they wanted to sublet a room for money. They needed the money. Then they looked for a Jewish fellow, a Jewish couple or somebody that would live with them.

Q: These people were Jewish or not.

A: Yes. Yes, these people were Jewish. The committee, the Jewish committee tried to place us in this home. And when we went to live with these people, it was a marvelous relationship. They had one daughter. And to me it was like having another home because they were extremely friendly. Not very sophisticated people. But intelligent. He was completely uprooted. | He had to work as a presser, pants. And she was sewing. A lot of Jewish people were doing that. But intelligent people. They sent their daughter to college and we just had a very nice two years with them in Rochester. Felix had to go into the hospital. And we were not sorry that we left New York because it was nice. It was really nice. Spring came and it was a small town. And very green and completely different than European cities, with the big old buildings, you know.

Small buildings, small homes. Back yards, little gardens and it was very pleasant. And I planned to get myself a job and they said they're going to try to place me someplace because they didn't want to completely support us. At that time I think we were getting 16 dollars a week. I mean I don't' really remember exactly but we were living with these people. And they were very dear to us until they day they died. They tried of find me a job. Felix had a very hard time at the hospital. First of all he was an (extra?) between April and July he was an (extern?). July the internship starts. It was a small hospital but a teaching hospital. There were 27 interns and residents there. And they found a lady who was German descent who was a spinster who was quite well to do and wanted to help and she taught him English. She would actually have

Interview with Lucine Horn 25 him over in her house for dinner. And she would sit with him for an hour or two speaking German to him and teaching him English. Very lovely lady.And they tried to get me a job. And they found me a job at Woolworth's where I was selling baked goods. And that was a six days a week job. I think I was making 20 some dollars a week. and it wasn't a matter of my preference because they were the ones. It was you know what, maybe it's a little similar of, to the situation today that people are on welfare. I was completely depending on them. I couldn't say gee I don't' want that job because I had 3 years of university in Vienna and I really don't' like to stand there and sell fried cakes and doughnuts. But these people were helping me. That was temporary. They were, I couldn't' tell them I don't want to do it. It wouldn't' be fair. So I had to take the job. So I took the job and it was very difficult at the beginning. Because I didn't know a fried cake from a doughnut. I mean that was strange to me. And I was standing at the counter surrounded by younger girls who practically never went to high school. And they all knew. I mean they knew people came in and they wanted 3 of this and 6 of this and 5 of this.

And somehow I didn't' have to write down on the box and figure out how much they owe me.

Because we were putting the string on and they were adding 18 and 14 and 15. I somehow did it without having to write it down, because I added it up in my head. And after six months the sup, no, after that was maybe after 3 months. The Supervisor came up to me. She said I see that you're quite smart. Maybe we'll give you a little better job. Maybe this is not the right job for you. And I started to speak a little better. And they said you know what, we're going to put you in the stock room. You're going to make up orders. The orders come from downstairs and they you're going to go to the stock room and you're going to be in stock room. And you're going to put together these orders for each station downstairs. And I was very grateful because I could sit, I didn't' have to stand six days a week, 48 hours that was kind of hard. And I started to

Interview with Lucine Horn 26 work in the stock room. But I still was not very happy. And after six months, I was granted one week's vacation paid. And as soon as I got my weeks" vacation I went to the New York state employment agency. And I said you know what, I don't' speak English very well but I have, first of all I had two years of medical school cause I went to medical school. I said I have two years of medical school. I know medical terminology and my English is not that great but can you get me a job. So they offered me right away two jobs. One was telephone answering, I mean telephone company. Answering with the numbers and the other one is was at the Blue Cross and Blue Shield. And I kind of liked that because I was with a husband that was studying medicine forever and ever and ever. And I had to do with him the you know the lessons and everything else. And listen to everything so I never came back to Woolworth's' I just took the job at the Blue Cross Blue Shield. And it was entirely different feeling on the job. I was making $35 a week and after 3 months they would review me. And I was approving medical claims because I knew the terminology and there was restrictions on certain diagnoses. And there was _ certain preexisting conditions and other factors you know. And I liked it. I liked my job very much. I had a desk and I had a phone and I worked with very nice people. In a very nice office. And at that time we already moved out from the people there because we wanted to have our own apartment, and I was making already a little money. And I decided we're going to take our own apartment because at that time $55 a month. It was a studio with a drop leaf table and a tiny little kitchen. But it was our own. And my husband couldn't' wait to get a car. It was very hard to be without a car because you know it's a town and you have to get in to the hospitals. And weekends we couldn't move any place you know. We were sitting in that little apartment. So he had these microscopes and he decided he says you know what I'm going to sell the microscope

Interview with Lucine Horn 27 and buy a car. Which he did. He sold the microscope and he bought a little old Plymouth, a 47 Plymouth. I think it was 5 or 600 dollars. And he knew how to drive.

Q: How did he know how to drive.

A: Well I think he drove in Europe. So in Blievitz he already drove. I mean cars was his thing you know. So we already had a little car and I was making enough to cover and whenever I didn't have enough, they would pay me the difference of what I needed for very basic things.

And he started his, his internship and he was quite happy there. They were very nice to him. And the hospital was a teaching hospital. He was very happy and I was working and then on s, because I only worked five days a week, on Saturday and Sunday I sold clothes. At the Lerner Shop and I made another $12 a week. And you know it kind of was beginning to work out for us a little bit. Um. I like to work for the Blue Cross and he had another year I think on that internship. In the meantime he tried to apply to get a license at New York State but it was very difficult. So the second year of his internship I got pregnant. And we were already married then ten years. And we had no money and we had nothing but I kind of said to myself you know enough is enough. I was already 25. We have to just eventually start a family. We didn't' want a family in Europe because there was no milk, there was no food. Everybody was starving. We knew we had to go across to the United States. We didn't know what we're going to come into.

But as rough as it is you know children grow up anyways. You don't' have to have everything for them. So we decided we're going to have this baby. And my little lady that I lived with was absolutely like a mother to me. I had a very hard time at the beginning and she was there with a pot of soup every single night for me. And she really took care of me. She was very, very

Interview with Lucine Horn 28 sweet. At that time she didn't work anymore. She's got a big part in my heart. So she kind of took care of me. And I still worked. I worked up until 7 or 8 months pregnant. They were very nice to me. If I wasn't feeling well they gave me a day off. I must say that they had a lot of respect for me. And I had my son and at that time I stopped working because there was no other way. Mothers didn't work. Even if you had money or you didn't have money, you didn't work.

My husband was making a total of $15 a month. I don't' know if he told you that. But at that time internships did not pay. And out of the $15 a month, he had to give them $5 for laundry and the other ten he smoked away day and night. So there was practically nothing on his side that he could give me. We had a little car and a tiny apartment (end file 1)

Interview with Lucine Horn 29 (file 2 -- RG-50.549.01.0019.02.02 -- duration: ) LUCINE HORN: and the other ten he smoked away. Day and night. So there was practically nothing on his side that he could give me. We had the little car and the tiny apartment. And we had a baby and as tiny as the apartment was, the baby was there you know. I mean there was just no other way. And we were quite happy. We got a little cat. And we waited for him to finish the internship.

Q: What did you name your child?

A: My, my son is named after my brother that I lost, the brother that was with me. His name was Gerald, David. And my husband's uncle lost a little boy by the name of Jerry so my son is Gerald David which he hates until this very day but he has to forgive me, I can't help it. So

Q: One other thing I'm curious about. There you're in a circumstance and you know a lot of people have been in the circumstance where you're you know you are still fairly young and you're just getting started. You don't have the biggest apartment, you don't' have much money.

You have a child. You had all that going. But I'm also curious again about what it was like, how it felt to you, what went through your mind and heart given what you had come out of. Given the fact that you were both survivors of the holocaust and now here you are and you're bringing this new life into the world. I'm curious about

A: We felt good. We felt

Interview with Lucine Horn 30

Q: Did you think of it in that way at all.

A: Yes we felt that we're here to stay. We want to raise a family. Sooner or later my husband is going to make it. It's going to be rough at the beginning. It wasn't like we thought we were doomed for life. I always had this future ahead of me that he is going to make it. And we were used to do with very little. That's how I grew up. I grew up knowing how to cook from nothing.

I knew to make a soup from garbage. That's how I grew up. We didn't have anything during the war. And we had to sustain ourselves. When there was a piece of old bread, we didn't throw it out. You soaked it in milk and you made like this and you put in a little sugar and you baked it.

In the oven. That's how I grew up. So I guess we were.

Q: You make a cake out of it.

A: Yes, we were finally happy. We thought we arrived. And we liked everything about the United States. We really did. We liked the way the people were. We liked the way the Jewish community everywhere embraced us. There wasn't a holiday in Rochester New York that we weren't invited to doctors" homes for dinner. Saturday nights they invited us. At the hospital they had dinners with daddies at the cafeteria. And the greatest thing, we lived not far away, took a buggy and the baby and in the basement it was the biggest thing to had dinner with daddy because we never saw him. I didn't' have to have washing machines and dryers. I lived one flight up walking. Tiny little apartment. I had to take the baby every morning with a bag of diapers, soiled diapers on the buggy. Walk about 4 or 5 blocks to the laundromat, put in a quarter

Interview with Lucine Horn 31 to wash the diapers. But I could not spend another quarter to dry them because I could hang it outside. So the baby was sleeping. The diapers were being washed. I put another bag of laundry on the buggy. Went back home, took him in the backyard, without lines hang the diapers out.

And that's the way we lived. And we were very, very happy. I knew it is not forever. And I knew that it has to be that way. There's just no other way. But we arrived to freedom, we arrived with people that are being good to us, that are being very encouraging to us. I did not have very much to do with my uncle at that time. Because uncle constantly asked if he can help us. And my husband constantly said I don't need anything. Thank you. We don't need more clothes right now. We don't' need fancy cars right now. We don't' need a fancy apartment right now. I'm going to arrive and I'm going to have it myself. You know Id occasionally they'd send a, an outfit for the baby or something like that but we were proud and we felt we can make it on our own. There was no necessity. They did enough for us and we appreciated it.

Q: I'm must curious. Leaving aside the material side of this and how all you had to do to be inventive to take care of yourself and your child in a situation. In another sense a few years after the war, so many millions of people killed. You and your husband both lost almost all of your families. And now you have brought this new being into the world. What I'm curious about and maybe this isn't the way you looked at it. I'm just curious whether you had any feelings or emotions or thoughts of like you know we are helping to in having this child you were bringing something back or you were helping to restore things or you know what I'm saying. And I don't' know. I wasn't there but I'm curious wither you had any sense of

Interview with Lucine Horn 32

A: Well to tell you the truth we were too busy struggling. There was no time for to philosophize.

To give you an example of how my husband worked. There were three day shifts. He would start in the morning at 6:00 on Monday and he wouldn't be home til Wednesday night. He would work all Monday, Monday night. All Tuesday, Tuesday night and Wednesday he would come home at 5. His feet were swollen from running around. Ok. I had to put his feet and soak it. He would have his dinner. He would hug the baby and go to sleep. And Thursday morning we would try the same sequence of three days. There was very little togetherness. There was very little feedback. We had no time to dwell upon anything. We even had no time to communicate.

When I was pregnant and very sick. I had to be there alone because he was not there for me.

Because he couldn't. So on top of having financial hard times, we had a very tough life. He had to work 36 hours in a row. And I had to be the one to take care of my child. There was just on other way. There was no baby sitter. There was no money for it. There was nothing. And of course, not a car. I had to do everything, all my shopping and grocery shopping and everything on that little buggy and walk to the store and do it back and forth. I had nice people. I had nice neighbors but they weren't really interested to do many things for me. So it was hard but we knew that we are in a land of freedom. We appreciate being here. Every minute of the day. We didn't dwell upon going back. Some immigrants said oh you know what in the old country they didn't do it like that. They did it this way. For us it was everything that we found here was a plus and a positive feeling. We did not think of ever going back because maybe things were different over there. there was no going back. there was only a black wall from what happened there and everything here was good and rosy. We took the little blanket on a Sunday. We went to a Delaware park and we put the blanket on the, on the grass and the baby was laying then and my husband took a camera and took pictures. That was our happiness. And we wanted to dwell

Interview with Lucine Horn 33 on the happiness and not go back to the black years because otherwise we just mentally could never make it. I wanted to be a sound, psych, I mean a sound mother for my child. I wanted to give him some sense of values. I didn't want them to have a frustrated mother who was thinking about what happened. What happened, happened. It was hell. It was terrible. It took my heart out. But here I am a young mother. I'm 25 years old. I have to start my life and do the best out of it. I cannot psychologically allow myself to do that because I have now a husband that's struggling. I have a, I have a child. I want a family. I want these positive things, even for myself.

We had a group of people there that we used to meet. Mother, young mothers that we were all in the same predicament. We were helping each other. One had to go to the doctor. The other one was babysitting. You know, out of necessity. We always found nice people around us. I never felt that moving from town to town was such a struggle because there was always nice people around us. Whether it was from the Jewish committee or was from the doctor's or was from the resident. When my son was born at the hospital where my husband was interning ok. We had zero money. And we had nothing. The girls in the office who were all single were so thrilled that I was pregnant that they didn't know what to do for me. They wanted to buy me everything.

I said look it's an old custom in Europe. You don't buy anything, no showers. I don't want it. I just don't' believe in it. So they took money together and as soon as the baby was born, they bought a buggy. They bought me a bassinette. They bought whatever I needed. When that baby was born, my husband got a little nurse from, from the nursery to come with me for a week and teach me what to do with the baby. There was no babies in my family. I never picked up a baby in my life. I was scared. That little girl would not charge me a dime. She would come over. She had a week off. She would stay with me and show me how to diaper and wash the baby. And she gave me so much confidence. So that was wonderful. And then there was another miracle

Interview with Lucine Horn 34 that I didn't know happens in this country. Everybody brought gifts to the hospital. There was 27 residents and interns and nurses and the window in the hospital. At that time you stayed a week. They didn't, they didn't throw you up, out like today. The window in the hospital was full of stuff. There was, they brought me diapers. They brought me little outfits. They brought me a little thing to take the baby home. _It was just a wonderful feeling. I wasn't forgotten. I wasn't by myself. People really did care. By the time I came home, the baby had a lot of things already. And I kind of knew that you know having a baby is happiness and, and it's going to work. It just absolute first. There were things like being hand me downs you know. There were people that were calling this lady that was teaching my husband. And asking if the Horns need anything. Can we send some linen to the house or can we send some other things or do they need blankets. These people just really because of the small town they wanted really to be helpful to us. And they were. So that's how life was in Rochester, New York. And then my husband finished his internship and there was a big dilemma, what to do. Because he still couldn't' get a permit to stay in New York state and get a license and he really wanted to get a license in New York state because he already had a lot of doctors that wanted him to work with them. And we already knew a lot of people there. And he did want to get licensed from New York State and they were making all kinds of trouble for him. At that time there was a law that whoever finished medicine after the war in Vienna, cannot be allowed to, to take the boards. There was all kinds of changes and all kinds of politics going on. And the outcome of it was that he just couldn't get a license to practice right away. So we decided that he will maybe become a house physician for a while because we needed some money desperately. And maybe he work on a salary to the hospital. And we didn't want to do it in Rochester because we found some very dear friends in Buffalo New York which was about only 70 miles away. And that was a little bigger town.

Interview with Lucine Horn 35 Buffalo had a million and Rochester had maybe 350,000. And I always liked to live in a little bigger town. So my husband got a job in the hospital in Buffalo New York. At the very not too much of a salary but at least some start. And we moved to Buffalo, New York to be with these friends that we knew from way back. And unfortunately were there for 7 years. We just couldn't' get out. He was working and making some money. And we bought a new car, because he always wanted a car on payment. And I never could go back to work because I had the little boy. And we somehow managed. It was nice. We met an awful lot of dear friends. And we made a life there you know. He was getting a little bit more money and then he was out working nights so for the nights he was compensated extra and being a small town you really don't need that much money. You pay monthly for a telephone $5. You know the expenses were much less. We happened to find some wonderful people that we rented from and it was very inexpensive and she became like a, like a mother to me and like a nanny. She really helped me bring up my children. In the meantime I had another child, I had my daughter in Buffalo, four years later.

Q: What year was this now?

A: That was 56. He was born in 52 and that was in 56. And we, we had an awful lot of fun. I had a lot of nice people but we were all together, one group of people from the Holocaust, trying to raise families and trying to make a life for themselves. Some were in business. Some were professional. They were just trying to establish a life. And we were helping each other. We were visiting each other. We had parties together. And we just had a very nice life. Except my husband was still on the job and he wanted to go on his own. And he tried all the time to be, be able to take the license in New York state. And Albany absolutely wouldn't' allow him to do

Interview with Lucine Horn 36 this. After all that. And that was very frustrating. Because we could never achieve anything the way he was working. His salary was $350 a month. I mean that wasn't enough for a family to survive. And he really wanted to go out on his own. Even so, some doctors, he was helping some doctors occasionally and he was helping them during vacation but it was still very, very hard. And one day we were so frustrated and he kept on waiting and waiting and waiting. And some doctors tried through senators and you know political influences and all stuff like that. And then finally we decided that we're going to go in person to Albany, New York and we're going to speak to the head person over there in the education department. And really talk it over with him and ask him what we should do. And we did that. We went, was a very nice man at that time, an older man. He sat down with us and he said Dr. Horn if I have to give you a good piece of advice, leave Buffalo tomorrow. There is a big United States and there is a lot of states that allow foreign trained physicians to take the boards and you can make just as good a living if you go someplace else. I know it's hard. You don't know anybody but you just have to do it. If you sit and wait here you'll never probably be able to practice in New York State. We didn't' realize that each state had a different, that this is a matter of federalism you know. It's not like uniform for the whole country. And my husband decided to take the boards in Ohio and in Illinois and in 1960 because we were three years, two years in Rochester. Then we were in Buffalo New York from 53 practically to 59. Well he worked as a house physician. And then in 59 he came to take the boards in November. To Ohio and Illinois and he passed in both places. And because he really loved Chicago he decided, we decided to move. And in 1960 in February. My son was seven or 7 and a half; my daughter was four. We moved to Chicago.

Q: And he had been to Chicago and decided this is where he wanted

Interview with Lucine Horn 37

A: He only came here to take the boards, but he met some nice people. He met some doctors. He made some, he made some contact with people that told him they would help him to get on boards, on staff of the hospital and maybe even give him a job. You know he wanted to work with somebody for a while. Because moving to Chicago was a big expense, first of all. And second of all he, the last six months before he took the boards he was not working because he really had to prepare for the boards. It was very hard to take the boards and he could not be working and doing these things. So that completely exhausted our savings. And he the cost of living was ten times as much as in Buffalo. So he really needed a job and he came out here a few times, made some contacts and got a job with another doctor, on a salary. And when we moved we got a little apartment. It was on the west side in Elmwood park so that we can he can be closer to the practice.

Q: I was just curious. He had been here even though it was briefly, when you moved to come out here, had you even been here at all.

A: Yes, I was here twice

Q: OH ok

A: We loved Chicago. Through some acquaintances we met an awful lot of nice people. Before I was even living here. We were invited to a party, we were invited to dinner and it was just very nice people that we met. And we were very encouraged to move to Chicago rather than to he

Interview with Lucine Horn 38 loved the city and so didI. | And we always like to live in a big city. So we decided to move and in 1960 in February we moved. We had a little apartment. Not far away where my husband was working. He was working very hard. He took all the night calls. Practically ran the office for the other doctor, cause the other doctor went in for a specialty. He wanted to get a specialty so for the big practice and Felix ran the practice. But he wasn't happy being with somebody because he has to do things his own way. He, he understands medicine his own way. His rapport with patients is very special and, and maybe a little different than this American doctor was. And he was always dreaming after all these years and he was already ten years later than most other doctors. He wanted to go into practice. By then he was already on staff of two hospitals and he needed a little courage because he was afraid to just put up a shingle because he still had a wife and two children to support. And there was no talk about me going to work. That never existed in my head. I would never leave my children with somebody else and go to work. I mean I just wouldn't do it. I would wait until my husband can do a better, give me a better life.

But I never thought of do, none of my friends every did it. At that time it wasn't even in style.

There was no places to leave these children. There was nobody to take care of them. There was no immigrant people that would take care of children at that time. You just had to raise your own family and that was it. And that was a pleasure.

Q: I should ask you. We didn't say your daughter was born what year and what did you name here.

A: Oh I don't know. I just liked Linda so I named her Linda.

Interview with Lucine Horn 39

Q: Ok so your son got the names of relatives and then your daughter got a name that you liked.

A: Yes, that's all. And at that time I didn't' even know that it means beautiful in Spanish. Now I do. And we moved here and he was working. And then I kind of encouraged him to go on his own. He was not happy with this other doctor. And I knew it's not going to work out for him.

So somehow with very humble beginnings, he started out his own practice. He succeeded

right away. He was very well liked. His manners were just fabulous. People just loved him. He delivered babies. He was in general practice. He was doing a lot of things with families and generations of families. And he had a small office at the beginning and then we bought the house. And we always kind of thought we have good thoughts. We thought we're going to make it and we did. And I always stood behind him and always encouraged him to, to you know to do these things and take risks. And he was very happy in his small office at the beginning but then there was an opportunity to buy a small building. He always wanted to have his own place. So we bought this building. In 19, I really don't recall. 86 he sold it. It was 25 years old. It must have been 61. He bought a small building and he had ten rooms. He had a very nice practice.

Very nicely furnished and I was raising my family. And always wanted to finish college because I never finished. As soon as we left Vienna there was no sense for me to, to sit around and get a degree. So as soon as my children went to school full time, I went back to Rosewood University and got my masters. And somehow never worked because my husband liked to take long vacations and I started to work for school system and was teaching German. That was my major and it was always a conflict with vacations so I didn't' want to be deprived. I just didn't' have the freedom to do what I wanted. And he was making a good living so I really didn't have to work anymore. And I decided to go back to school, finish school. And it wasn't until way into

Interview with Lucine Horn 40 his practice. I always wanted to help in his practice, but he always said that it's just not proper for a wife to help. And until there was an accident in the office that his nurse broke her hip and then we couldn't' replace the nurse. And I started to work for him. And I worked for him for nine years. And when he sold his office, I am working now ten years for my son. So I've always been doing something. And the experience and the privilege of being a full time mother and not having to really go out of home and stay with my children has so tremendously paid off. Because my children always appreciated are just so close that we just could not be a closer family there is.

My children always knew that we are just orphans. And that just the four of us and nobody else.

And they always knew that they have to be extra sensitive. And that's how wonderful with us and we felt the same thing with them. Because none of us had anybody else. There was not a grandma, and an uncle and an aunt and a cousin. They had nobody. They just had us. And we just had to be there for them. He, the, their father was not home. My husband put in tremendous late hours. Seven days a week. And I knew that if I go or if I do things in the evening and get a sitter, these children are just not going to have a parent around. And somehow my biggest pleasure was to be with them, until this very day. It still it's the same way. We just are very happy to be with each other. Even so they are grown now and they have their own families. But we just have a tremendous relationship with each other. And this is in a way the gratification of my life. Because I always feel that if god took away my parents when I was 12, and all this horror was happening to me, maybe he repaid me in a certain gratification that I am still at that age here, sound mind. And I can enjoy the fruit of my life and I can enjoy and be with children who have never moved away, who live in the same town. Who are so close and that we understand each other so well. And I always feel that there is maybe a certain gratification in life and this was the compensation of all the ills that I had in my life.

Interview with Lucine Horn 41

Q: Can I ask you how much did your children learn about your particular story and your husband's and the Holocaust. What age did that start at?

A: Well I would say that from the very beginning when they understood when they were maybe 12, 14 years old, when I my son was bar mitzvah, we always told them what happened to them.

You know they were always looking for grandparents and grandmothers and grandfathers. Their friends had it and we always had to tell them what happened. And we were piecemeal. We were telling them. For instance we used to go on vacation and I could spend two, three weeks sitting at the beach sitting next to my children. Especially next to my daughter. And I would tell her piecemeal stories of what happened. At the beginning I didn't want to shock them because they were you know sensitive and young.

Q: Would you wait for them to ask questions or would you bring things up?

A: They would ask questions but I mostly was telling them my life story. I made an audiotape a little bit on my tape recorder. They were asking questions and they wanted to know and we told them. We felt good about telling them of what happened. It wasn't until they became all grown up and understood more and maybe because of their feelings towards us, they felt that they felt uncomfortable thinking how hurt we were. They began to feel very sorry for us that we had to go through this experience. And they were treating us very tenderly and very specially. Like they would want to spare us the thought all these bad thoughts that we went through. And it reached

Interview with Lucine Horn 42 a point where my children had not seen the tapes that you just viewed from the Holocaust. They each had a set in the safe because they sent us three copies.

Q: These are the interviews you did with the museum. A couple years ago.

A: Yes, yes and they probably are going to see it after they, after we're gone. But they just cannot bring themselves to listen any more now to all these stories. And I have to tell you that they didn't go to see Schindler's List. My son saw Shoah and he's never been the same. And my daughter who cries at weddings, that's how sensitive she is, she's really the last person that can take it. So they do know and they do read, but as far as asking questions constantly, it hurts them.

They're protective of us. They understand now that they are getting old. They feel bad. We were going like to lecture and we lectured a few years ago. Lately we find that it's much harder to talk about it, because when you get older you know, your nerves are shattered and we cry more when we tell the story. We cry more when we think about it. So they want to spare us this. They just want us to live right now as long as we have without really going into it. When I tell them that I'm going to see a movie or when I told them that I went to see Schindler's List, I watched something on television, they get really upset because they feel it's not for us to go through it.

It's for the other people to go and watch you know. They don't want to hurt us more than we do.

And then this thing came up about a few months ago that maybe my brother could be alive you know so they both went absolutely crazy. Even the grandchildren and I don't know. I had some very false hopes. I don't know if they're false. It's possible that he is alive but we are now in the process of trying to see. If, if this is really so and what's going to happen.

Interview with Lucine Horn 43

Q: Right. I should just say for the record here that in your video testimony and then in the audio interview that I did with your husband the other day he told the story of how you lost your younger brother and he was tricked and the whole thing with the phony resort and that after the war, as far as you knew that he had not survived. And that in the last month or so or in the last few months you've gotten some information that he may well have survived and you're trying to possibly locate him.

A: And I might just not ever find him.

Q: So that that has been covered. That story was talked about in other interviews. I don't know if you want to say anything about it. Be my guest.

A: I told the story in my interview about how I lost him and what happened in that time. and there isn't too much not too much has been written about this simple incident of this hotel that he was, that he went with. (no sound) There isn't too much not too much has been written about this simple incident of this hotel that he was that he went with. But the Holocaust Museum was very helpful to me and they found the book at the library and they sent it to me. And this book covers everything that happened at that time so it's been documented. And coincidentally yesterday I had company here. And somebody saw this book laying around. And they opened up the book and they found somebody that they know who survived. So now I'm going to try to contact this person and see if maybe they know anything you know. But it's been a search. It's certainly gave me a little encouragement knowing that maybe even if I never find him that he might be alive. And if I find him or not that's another story. But I'm happy to share

Interview with Lucine Horn 44 all my thoughts with whoever is going to ever see it and read it and I must add that the enthusiasm and the happiness that this country has given me and I know my husband too, it's really been my country. I mean I cherish Israel and I go there very often and this is really a part of me. My father was a Zionist and he was founder of a youth group in my home town. He is written up in several books. I grew up ina Zionist home. I never thought of myself that I'm not going to live in Palestine because I really wanted to be there. My father was 25 years old. He went to Palestine to live there with my mother. And he got very sick with malaria, and returned.

I still have relatives that tell me all that. And I never thought of myself as not living in Israel.

Israel is a part of me. But I have been very, very happy and I think both of us now agree that we made the right choice to come to the United States and more or less now things are very bad here too as far as safety is concerned. But at least things weren't that bad and I didn't' have to worry about my children being shot all the time and going into the army again. And I feel that this country is my home. I am very patriotic towards that country and I really, it really hurts me to see how things have been recently and how this country has gone down, and down and down and it's not really a country I came to in the 50s and 60s. The United States gave the opportunity to all my friends who really rebuilt their lives, educated their children. Started out from nothing.

And somehow through hard work and being frugal and being thrifty and being maybe believing in God in their own way, and showing their children the values and wanting to educate their children and better themselves. They have all arrived and they have all achieved. This is the group of people I am with and I must say that even American people admire that very much.

They really admire this group of immigrants that came in, in the 1950s and really helped build this country up after the war. We were part of it and we're very proud of it, even though we didn't' fight for this country. But we really feel and that's why right now I am so disillusioned

Interview with Lucine Horn 45 when I see all these ugly things that are happening here and the insecurities that children have to be brought up. Even my grandchildren I mean. There is no safety for them. There is no security.

It's just rough, it's very rough now. And we came to this country things weren't like this. We were walking around in the middle of the night. We never locked our doors. I wasn't worried when my kids went away, when they were driving, when they were going places. Now it's just constant, constant fear. And I hope that maybe it will take a couple of years or so and maybe things are going to be back to where they were before. If at all possible. Because it could also be a global phenomenon. Maybe it's just not the United States.

Q: You mentioned to me that there had been a change in your children and that now they don't' want to talk about the Holocaust and they want to sort of spare you any further sorrow because of that. I'm curious, when did that happen? How old were they when they changed.

A: When they became grown human beings. I mean you know my son was a student and when he became a father himself he understood it more. And I think with my daughter the same. It evolved by them going into our shoes. My daughter feels the privilege of having a mother and a father so strongly that when she thinks that I didn't' have it, it just breaks her heart. It absolutely breaks her heart. She constantly tells me look at my little girl. She's got two grandma's and two grandpa's. And you know I didn't have it but I know it, she understood what it meant for me being 13 years old and not to have a mother. Because she herself at the age of 40 needs me every single day. So they became more aware of it when they became grown human beings. You know what I mean. I don't know if I'm expressing it well. But when they became parents and when they see what's going on, it just they understood what we went through. Regardless of the

Interview with Lucine Horn 46 fact that people were killed in gas chambers and everything else. That's the global tragedy that happened during the war to six million Jews. But on a personal level they relate to our lives. And that's very painful to them and very important. I don't know if that answers your question.

Q: It does. You mentioned your son saw Shoah and you said, I think the exact way you said it was he was never the same after that. What happened.

A: He just told me that he doesn't want to see these things again. He just can't bear it. He cannot bear it because his own parents were so involved in it. And his own grandparents could have been laying there in the ditch. He just cannot face up to and he just cannot take it.

Q: And then a movie like Schindler's List comes out and your son wouldn't see it, what about your daughter, did she, she wouldn't see it.

A: No, no.

Q: But you saw it. Did your husband see it.

A: Yes we went. We saw the first week when it was in, in, I feel to a certain extent it's my duty to go and see these things. It's my duty to go to Yad Va'shem. It's my duty, I was three times at the Holocaust Museum. To a certain extent in my duty but I can't punish myself. I cannot spend sleepless nights because every time I see something like that you know it works on me. I don't' sleep for three days. So at this stage of my life I can't be punished anymore. I have been

Interview with Lucine Horn 47 punished already. It's not going to help the world and it's not going to help the memory of my parents if I punish myself at my age right now. I have done it. I have lived it. I experienced it. I can tell about it. But it gets harder and harder. And I know that a lot of people can't even talk about it anymore. I was a child and I lost my parents but I have friends who lost children. They lost wives. And they cannot talk to their children, to their present children and family about it at all. They made a wall. They don't' want to talk about it. This is their past life. They want their life now. People react to these things in a completely different way. I was a child. I came to the United States. I was 20 some years old. I could adjust to the life here. I completely acclimatized myself to the life in the United States. I became so absorbed with the life that I became an American. And I understand when people are a certain age and the same is with experiences.

Some people had such experiences that they really don't want to talk about it. And they don't want to tell their children because maybe they think that they want to spare them. You know there's all kinds of, you cannot really it's not a uniform feeling and a uniform way to deal with it.

Everybody has to do it on their own level.

Q: I know that in some families it has caused problems between parents and their children.

A: What kind of problems?

Q: Well tension. The children feel a burden towards their parents that they can never really live up to. There have been studies in books about this. I mean some families do well. Others do not.

Interview with Lucine Horn 48

A: I will tell you. I have a tremendous amount of friends from the Holocaust. I live in New York.

I lived in Rochester. I lived in Buffalo. I still know about 120 families in Buffalo. I'm here surrounded by people from the Holocaust. We are very social. I know an awful lot of people. I never encountered a family that had a problem with children. If they had problems it was because of different, because of different reasons. They could have personality clashes. They could have been parents that maybe demanded too much from their children. Their children couldn't deliver. Maybe through their lives, maybe they wanted to live their lives through their children's lives you know. There's all kinds of different circumstances. I'm not saying that everybody is living in peace. But that wasn't our case. In my case I feel that my children are very normal, very well adjusted. We try to give them a very solid sense of values. I don't' think my children are absolutely affected. I mean they are affected because of what we went through but their life and their relationship with the family, I don't think has been affected at all because of the fact that they are survivors of, they are children of survivors. They have never been embarrassed of us. They have never been ashamed of us. They have always been very proud.

And they put us on a certain pedestal. You know like a wounded bird. Because we were the ones that they have to shelter now and help us and that was always the relationship. They always understood. And we always had a good relationship with each other. And so do my friends. I mean I really don't know of anybody, unless there's all kinds of circumstances in families you know where parents don't see eye to eye with the children. And there's all kinds of tension but that's not only people from the Holocaust. That goes on in other families.

Q: When you and your husband are leading your lives together does it come up much anymore?

Interview with Lucine Horn 49

A: Well I have to tell you the truth. My husband likes to talk about it. Not with me, but with other people. I like to keep it to myself. I would not talk about it to just anyone. If I have to tell the kids at the Hillel foundation at Northwestern, I tell them. If I have to talk to a group at my temple, I'Il tell them. But I don't think that every American Joe not only has a right, but they don't' have to know what's going on in my, in a soul. If they want to know something about the Holocaust there is books, there is movies, there is everything else. I don't' think they even understand it. I don't think they have a way of feeling and understanding it 50 years afterwards.

My husband could go on a vacation and meet people at the pool. And he would tell them everything. I'm not that way. I'm more into myself. If they ask me I could tell them a few things. But I would not open up my wounds and my scars and tell them everything that happened tome. As far as between us well, we, we go back to it. We just put memorial plaques in the temple for all our parents you know, his sister. We read about it. We you know are very attuned to what happens with anti-Semitism here, with people that write books about that the Holocaust never happened. About the attitude of people here towards what happened you know. We're very attuned to that. But after so many we just don't sit and dwell about it you know. I just hada reproduction made of my father's picture and now this thing with my brother and of course we are it's part of our life. It has not been erased, by no means. But it's not part of our every day's life. You know my husband recently, he's sensitive and now that he says you know what. I would give to have a picture of my sister. I am beginning to forget what she looked like. You know. And he told this to my kids and then my kids talked to me. He says ma is there any way that you think of that we can get dad a picture of his sister. And I said honey I know everything about his life. And this is just impossible. There is nobody in this world that I think could have a picture. I have a picture of my brother. He has pictures of his parents and I have pictures of my

Interview with Lucine Horn 50 parents. But he doesn't' have a picture of his sister and I know that he would like to. And I think you know when you get older you become more sensitive to these things. And I really don't think that he should be now talking about and lecturing. The few times that we lectured, that he lectured, he broke down, he really did. I think our resistance is getting kind of shaky right now and I'm not surprised I heard from interviewers that when people get into the 80s even if they remember, they just don't want to be put through that experience of talking. That's why we have to hurry and do it. Because it is very painful and when you're younger you take it better, much better than when you get older. You think about the past and your life and everything else.

Q: You know there is this thing which has been happening off and on or more and more depending on how you look at it where there are people who maintain it didn't' happen or it's been highly exaggerated, all that. The people who lived through it a lot of them are no longer around and everyone is getting up in years. Do you think about or worry about the time when the time comes when there are no longer survivors who are alive and whether the world will remember. The world will forget. Does that topic, do you think about that at all.

A: No I really don't think about it. I really don't' think about it because I feel that I have done everything I could. I leave a legacy. I told my story. My children know. they each have the tapes.

I lived through the horror and I'll die with it. And the world is rotten anyways. And they're going to try to do whatever they want to. They have never been fair to the Jews. They're going to try to, there are always going to be people that are going to say it never happened. There's always going to be anti-Semitism. Unfortunately. And you know genocide is happening every single day and all over the world. So apparently this is the structure of people. It's dog eat dog. I

Interview with Lucine Horn 51 don't know. Look at what's happening now. I mean look what happened now in beautiful Yugoslavia where I was seven years ago on a vacation. And I can't forget that country. I mean people were just doing it to themselves. It's just unbelievable. And little me at my age with my experiences just can't take care of that any more. | leave it to the younger generation. I cannot at this stage of my life worry about these things. I like to be around for as long as I can. I have unfortunately my children got married late. They weren't married in their 20s. They were married in their 30s, maybe because they had it so good at home. Or this is just the way life was for them.

Q: IT's getting later all the time.

A: But I am very grateful that they did it and we do have now 11 for dinner for the holidays from four. And I just would like to live long enough to enjoy my family now. The fruit of my labor, the fruit of my life. Life is sweet and good and we are having a wonderful time and we can still travel and we can still afford things and we can still enjoy each other. And we are still together after 54 years. So I just want a simple life right now. I don't want to I'm past the stage where I can change the world. I leave it up to the younger people.

Q: You arrived in New York on Thanksgiving and your husband mentioned this to me too the other day. When you have Thanksgiving dinner your children and grandchildren all get together for Thanksgiving. Do you do anything special?

Interview with Lucine Horn 52

A: Yes, we always tell them the story and we always make sure that they know that we arrived to the United States on Thanksgiving and we count the years every time we have our turkey. And I make sure that I make it, not my daughter in law, not my daughter. This is my personal pleasure because it has a certain meaning to me and I am just very grateful that I can do it and that I have my family around me. And we support the Holocaust Museum. We support all these ventures of memorizing everything and trying to remember and write about it and in our own way we feel that we just did as much as we could. I cannot carry the burden of the world now any more. I think I did my share. I had my burden. And the life now at our age is just getting up in the morning every day, being able to function, not to be a burden and to have each other. And this is the philosophy of most people that are older. And of course we are very much aware of what is going on and I am a very political person. I am a very political person and I love politics and I love to listen to all the analysis and unfortunately I don't get it from the media because the media is too wise for me.

Q: Which way do you think is best, left or right.

A: Oh the media is completely left. I mean there is question about it. I think the media should be unbiased. | think that media should report and not take sides. I think that is just not fair. And especially to people that don't understand things so well and just listen to what media tells them.

And I don't know. I just part of this life in America.

Q: Something that just popped into my head that I wonder about is whether you have aversions to certain things or certain people. What are your feelings towards Germany. You're here in

Interview with Lucine Horn 53 Chicago, the tremendous number of Jewish people. This is also, outside of Warsaw the biggest Polish city in the world. A country that you're not a big fan of. I'm wondering whether there are things you have where you don't' want to have anything to do with certain places or

A: Yes, definitely. I am a very opinionated person. I have a very strong mind of my own. And I was offered to go to Auschwitz and make a movie by Boston University or somebody in Boston.

The Holocaust Museum had them call me. And the only condition was there was supposed to be a movie called Women of the Holocaust. There were four women going to Auschwitz. They wanted to shoot on location. My foot will never step on the Polish soil under any circumstances, except if I will know that my brother is there. I'Il go look for him. I severed all my ties with Poland. I have a lot of unfortunate bad feelings, ill feelings about the people there. Maybe this is not just but I can't help it. This is a place which is absolutely does not exist for me to go any more. I would never travel to Germany. I will never go there on vacation. I tolerate the German people because I try to tell myself that the present generation, maybe now after 55 years didn't know what they were doing. Also according to the new book they did, but these were still their parents and grandparents and when I see a German that's 75 years old, I could not go even near him. Because I know he was a Nazi and he was killing the Jews. But when I see a German that's 25 or 30 years old I can't feel that way because it wouldn't' be right. When I see a Polish person 30 years old I know that his father told him to hate the Jews. Because the Polish people have it in their blood. They were, they did not kill or help kill the Jews but they hated the Jews from time immemorial. Before the war they were beating up Jewish students. Before the war in 20s and 30s they didn't want to have the Jewish people living in Poland. It dates back, way back before even Hitler existed. You see. So actually anti-Semitism I think in Poland goes way back

Interview with Lucine Horn 54 before any other countries knew about it. Of course, the Spanish you know during the Inquisition, we can't talk about that. That was in the 15" century. But I have very strong feelings about certain groups of people. I, as I said this is the way I feel about it. I just can't help it.

Q: What about if you're just going around town and you go into one of the parts of Chicago that's still Polish

A: I don't like to go.

Q: You don't go.

A: I don't like to go no. I just don't like to go there. And I also don't like to have a cleaning lady that's from Poland. I have a very nice lady that cleans for me for 35 years. She's like part of my family. I, it" just bothers me. It just bothers me. Because I know how much they hate the Jews. My husband doesn't feel that way but I do. He went back to Poland. He's sentimental. He wanted to see his school and his house and his apartment. I couldn't take it. Maybe because he was in hiding and I was exposed. I was exposed every single day to people that wanted to kill me. Not only Germans. Poles. Every day. When I tried to make a living. These people were nice to me because they didn't' know and they constantly talked to me about Jews. Maybe this is the reason. I don't know. Also my husband lived before the war 20 years in Poland. I only lived 13 years there. I have no ties with schools or high schools. Or even Polish literature I wasn't taught.

With him it was different so I just don't' have these sentimental feelings towards Poland. It was a

Interview with Lucine Horn 55 country I was born in and unfortunately I was growing up there and that's it. It's all over with for me. I'm American. I'm Israeli, I'm Jewish. I'm proud of it and it's just fine with me.

Q: I don't have any more questions. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you want to talk about or that you'd like to finish by saying.

A: Well I think I summarized everything pretty well. You know to tell you the present state of affairs and my feelings. And just the fact that I'm very happy and grateful for what I have and I've always been that way. I try to instill these values in my children too. And sometimes things matter more than material things. Unfortunately this is a material world right now. But we have always made it with very little and I grew up in a home where these values were passed on by my parents too. They were two professional people. I cherish their memory. They taught me everything I know. I maybe became a very secure person in life because I was a very secure child. I was wanted. I was loved. I was needed. I was respected and I was always brought up with parents, with two parents being there. And it was my youth was just, my childhood was just so happy. And they were always telling me whether I was five or six, that I am nice and that I am pretty and that I am a good girl and that that security has lived with me all my life, no matter what people would throw at my face and tell me that I'm bad, that I'm Jewish and I'm this and I'm that and genocide you know. I kind of always felt this within me. And I'm trying to, I tried always to give this to my children. | think it's very important. Also I never was under any psychiatric or psychological care and I felt that I can do it myself, that I can overcome certain hurdles in my life by myself because I had this inner strength because my mom used to tell me that I am just a very nice little girl and very important to them and loved and that I'm going to

Interview with Lucine Horn 56 make it if I believe in myself. And I always did. And I think with the spectrum of what you see what's happening now is the breakup of the family and fatherless children and god knows what's happening in the world. You know. I think that this is maybe the root of all evil. That maybe people that grew up in secure homes are just going through life in a much easier way than people that are just uprooted and don't' know where they belong and don't' know whether somebody wants them or needs them. Or you know or they can contribute to society or not. I just always had that pleasant inner feeling that my parents instilled in me for the 12 short years that I lived with them. And that really helped me all my life. And I tried to pass it on to my children and maybe that helped them to be to be good people and see the world in a certain way. And when I compare now for instance my daughter's upbringing and her way of thinking and living comparing to maybe her peers, she always tells me mom whatever I know is from you. I am what you taught me to be and it makes me feel good, because she's a very nice person and so is my son. And my son's father was always, always an example to him. Always. And maybe that's very important for families to be. I don't' want to sound too philosophical but you wanted me to finish in a certain way so I just am doing that on the side.

Q: thanks for taking all this time.

A: You're welcome.

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