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MARION FRIEDMAN November 22, 1997

Q: This interview is being taped on behalf of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. The interview is with Marion Friedman. And my name, the interviewer, is Nancy Alper. And today's date is November 22nd, 1997. This is the first tape, Side A. Marion, would you please tell me your name at birth, your date of birth and your place of birth?

A: Okay. My name of birth isthe whole name is Tiaute Marion Julia Georgia Solomos (phonetic) And I was born December the 10th, 1922.

Q: Where were you born?

A: In Hamburg, Germany.

Q: Can you spell those first names for me, please?

A: Tiaute is Tiaute. Marion is Marion. Julia, Juliann. No. I'm sorry. I missed it, ia on the end, Julia. And Georgia is like regular Georgia like American Georgia, forget it.

Q: And your last name as well.

A: My last name in German is Sulomos. My dad was Hungarian and they pronounced it in Hungary, Smorish (ph).

Q: Why don't you tell me your current address and telephone number so we'll have that on the tape as well?

Q: And that's in Greensboro, North Carolina, correct? Okay. I think I'll start by asking you whether you've ever been interviewed before, and if so where and under what circumstances, and how long ago it was?

A: No. I have never been interviewed at any time anywhere.

Q: Why are you willing to do it now?

A: Well, I think one of my sons put my name into the Holocaust Museum. And I think my children are anxious for me to do it. And I'm really doing it to help the people to remember. I know we've got plenty of things to remember here, but I really want to do it now. And I have never done much talk about it, so I feel like this is the time really to do it.

Q: Lalso thought we could start by your simply telling me about your parents, their background, their education, and their families, their religious life, anything that you can think of, their personalities to talk about them.

A: I guess every child says their parents were wonderful. I had very wonderful parents.

My father wasokay I think we left at my father. My father went to high school, I'm sure.

And he might have gone to college too, but I really don't know. But he was a Latin scholar and helped everybody in the neighborhood, kindness of his heart, and he was a wonderful man. And my mother had high school. And I really don't know about college either. She was life smart. She was a very smart, bright lady. She played the piano. She played the violin. She sewed. She played excellent bridge. She just knew how to do everything.

Q: Do you know the birth dates? I want to ask you the full names of your parents, but do you know their birth dates?

A: [really don't remember. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I don't remember.

Q: Why don't you tell me their full names and where they were both born?

A: My dad was born in Hungary in a small town called Cameron. And my mother was born in Lubeck, Germany, a beautiful town, which I visited many times.

Q: What was their background in terms of the kinds of families that they came from?

A: I really don't know too much about my dad's family. I did knowwhich my brother told me that he wasthere was something wrong, something that ignited. I really don't remember the whole thing, but my mother was from a very plain, hardworking family, and I never knew my grandparents. I really only knew her brothers and they wereall had interesting professions. They all did okay. And that's all I really know.

Q: You never knew the family members of your father's Hungarian family; is that correct?

A: [knew some of my father's brothers, but only when I was very young. Used to visit in Hungary. And I just knew them as Uncle Chan (ph) or my fatherone of my father's brothers was a lawyer, Uncle Chandor (ph). And he had a couple of other brothers who I really did not know. And my mother had two brothers, whom I knew who visited us frequently.

Q: Why don't you tell me first how your father ended up coming from Hungary to Germany, and then how your parents met?

A: This is quite unusual because my dad always wanted to come to the United States.

And his father was, I guess, maybe tired of hearing it. And he decided to give him a

certain amount of money, I don't know how much, but I heard the story many times. And he had to go to Hamburg to get the ship because Hamburg and one other port, Bremen, I think were the largest hard ports in Europe at the time. And he came to Hamburg purposely a few days ahead of time because wehis parents had some friends there whom he was supposed to visit. And at one of the visits, they had a tea in the afternoon, tea and coffee and cakes. And he met my mother. And he took one look at her and really liked her a lot. And it was raining outside. And my mother was there with her mother. And he happened to have an umbrella, and he took them home. And asked her mother if he may date her, and she said, oh, sure, if you would like to. And this was the beginning of a wonderful relationship.

Q: What year would that have been or you can probably figure out a general notion of what age they were, although I understand it's hard to be specific. I think you told meoh, no, that was your brother. Do you have a sense of when he might have come to Hamburg for the purpose of going to the United States?

A: Well, my brother would have been 85 now. And so it's been quite a few years, and you don't want to take the time for me to figure it out right now, okay?

Q: Can I assume that that brother was born pretty soon after they got married?

A: Well, it was at least more than 12 months, that's for sure. And that brother, P.S., was my oldest brother, became a doctor. And I shall tell you about that later. All right.

Q: I'm interested in the fact, and you told me this in the preinterview that your mother was not Jewish. And I'm wondering what your sense or memories of the stories you heard from your parents led you to believe about what it meant for a Jew and a nonJew to get married in a big city in Germany at that time?

A: You know, it's funny, I never really gave that much thought because it was] knew other people where their father was Jewish or vice versa and the mother was Jewish. And it was a mixed marriage. And they were very happy with each other. And there was never any talk about that much Judaism. And I didn't live in a Jewish neighborhood. And it's really hard for me to answer that question because there was no problem in those days. I mean, my parents went everywhere. My parents did a lot of traveling. Nobody discussed it and nobody asked me are you Jewish? It just was foreign to me, and that's the truth.

Q: I just realized, Marion, I didn't get the names of each of your parents, so why don't you give their complete names and spell their first names because you've already spelled the last name.

A: My dad's name was Morris, or Maurice Solomos (ph)didn't I mention that before? And my mother's name was Bertha or Bertie (ph) most of her friends called bought Haagen, Haagen.

Q: So it was not an issue is what you're saying, the intermarriage was not an issue. Did your mother observe Christian holidays or go to church, and what kind of Jewish observances did she or your father and you participate in?

A: No. I never remember my mother going to church. My dad went on the high holidays and occasionally on Friday night and would take us along. And I feel badly, but there are many things which really are not clear in my mind anymore. There was neverhe took me along for some of the high holidays. I went later years to Sunday school and studied Hebrew for a year or two and went to regular Sunday school, but otherwise it was never an issue and nobody ever made an issue over it until Hitler came.

Q: Marion, why don't you talk about how the Christian celebrations that your family engaged in, kind of intermixed with the Jewish observances and holidays that you did with your father and brothers?

A: Well, the biggest holiday, Christian holiday, in fact, the only Christian holiday that I can remember, we made a big fest over Christmas. My mother always had a big Christmas tree up to the ceiling, and we had three front rooms and all threeit was a ladies" room where my mother had special ladies" furniture, and a man's room in the middle, which was all leather furniture, and a dining room on the side. And all three rooms for about a week before Christmas were closed off. And she always brought in a table for everybody. We each had either a bridge table or some type of table. And they were packed with gifts. But nobody was allowed in that door, and it was such an exciting holiday for me and my brothers and my friends. And I can't even describe it. And everybody got a big plate, a colorful paper plate. And on the paper plates were all kinds of moassapin (ph) breads and candies and all sorts of fun things. And that holiday we observed to the bitter end.

Q: Was there any discussion or conflict about celebrating Christmas because your father was Jewish and raising you Jewish?

A: No, it was not. At Hanukkah, he would light the candles, and sometimes my brothers were there, but some weren't there but it isn'tit wasn't very memorable to me and it wasn'tno fuss was made over. I got to be honest.

Q: Did the Christian relatives, the relatives of your mother come and join in the celebration, the Christmas celebration with you and your family?

A: They sometimes came the day afterwards, but Christmas Eve we always had by ourselves. And they used to alwaysthe tradition was that you ate carp and parsley potatoes with brown butter. And my mother had a set. This is so hard to believe. She had a set. She only used dishes at Christmastime and they were all painted and it was thel still remember it so vividly because they were all the bottom of the sea, and they were in these

bluishgrayish colors with fish pictures under the sea. And, oh, they were beautiful. And all that went to the Naxis, everything.

Q: What Jewish celebrations did you participate in? I think you said something to me about Purim when we talked earlier.

A: Oh, yes, my dad took me to Purim to temple. It was a good way. We used to have a car many years ago, but he had given up that car. And we used to gohad to walk and took a street car and went to the temple which was a good distance away from us. It was a reform temple, and everybody would march around. And they would get candies and it was very exciting. That was the only Jewish holiday I remember.

Q: Was the reform temple very far from where you lived?

A: Yes, very much so.

Q: And you lived in an apartment?

A: Yes. I lived close to the Hamburgthe main hospital. It wasn't too far away because I remember my brother in later years would walk up tohe became a doctor. It wasit was a veryvery nice apartment house. There were only four apartments in there. And I remember every bit of the place.

Q: Was itwould you characterize it as an upper middle class neighborhood?

A: Definitely. I don't know if you would consider it now upper middle class, but in those days, it definitely was. It had big hallways you entered. In fact, I could even describe it to you. It had three nice size front rooms, which all closed off. They had sliding doors if you wanted to close them. And if you could open them, they were all three open, and had a long hallway. And we had threeandahalf bedrooms, actually, the half bedroom was for a housekeeper, and a large kitchen. And I would say it was a very beautiful apartment. And I remember we had oriental rugs everywhere because my dad's brother was an oriental dealer and I guesseven the bathroom. And we had two bathrooms. And I think in those days, nobody ever even heard of that. And so I would say it was an upper middle class.

But I really didn't know that much about upper middle class as a child or not.

Q: Yes, I realize that's not a child's question. And the school, you mentioned that you went to private school. Was that near the house, and what kind of school was that?

A: I wentfor the first few years, I went to a regular public school. And then whenduringwhen Hitler got in power and things got bad, my mother pulled me out of there and put me in a private school, which was owned by two French ladies. And I had to walk about 25 minutes to that school. But it was private. And it was veryit was a lovely school. And, P.S., it was bombed completely to the ground.

Q: I'm glad you said that because it reminded me. I wanted to ask you sinceand we will talk about this latersince you have gone back to Germany since the war, is that apartment building still existing that you spent your childhood in?

A: Yes, it certainly is. In fact, I went back several times. And what I remember as a child playing on the street, you know, hopscotch and all of the things that children play. And I had a couple of girlfriends on the street. All of the little trees, which were there on each side have now gotten huge and they have madewhat do you call an arcade? A wedge.

They meet in the middle and the street is much prettier than it was before. And the other thing, which is so strange, where we used to walk to come to our home is now filled with cars. You can hardly walk through the street because it'severywhere are cars. And in my days we didn't have that many cars. I mean, the street has really, really changed. But the grocery store is still on the corner. And one of the people when I went back when I mentioned my name, she said, yes, she heard that there was a Jewish family living there and she remembered her mother talking about it.

Q: Now, I would like to ask you about your siblings, if you could tell me their names and their birth dates or ages, and how much older they were than you, and what your relationship with them was and the family.

A: Okay, I have two brothers. My oldest brother was ten years older than I am. And my younger brother was five years older than I am. And I was very close throughwell, I was very close to my younger brother because he was close in age to me. And as I was growing up, he used to take me places, and I felt very close towell, my older brother had already drifted away. He went to med school and became very interested in Zionism, and became very bitter when thewhen Hitler took over and was very hard to talk to and changed his whole personality.

Q: You being the youngest and the only daughter, what was your relationship with your parents compared to how they treated your brothers?

A: I was spoiled rotten.

Q: I'd like to ask you, Marion, about your impressions of your father's family in Hungary, which must have seemed very different from thewhat you knew in Hamburg and your relationship in Hamburg and the surrounding area with your mother's relatives.

A: I visited Hamburg. I visited Hungary not that often, and I met the family. And there was some second cousins I used to play with, but it wasn't of any importance or anything.

What's very memorable to me, my Uncle Chandor (ph) was always very kind to me and took us out. And it was a very pleasant relationship, but not very close because we didn't see each other that often. And I think that's it.

Q: And your mother's family?

A: Well, one particular brother, this Uncle Willie, we used to be close to. His wifeis this a good time? His wife used to be a governess to my parents many years ago. And when my mother's brother, Uncle Willie, came to visit for the first time, he fell in love with this governess, with our governess, and married her. And so __+ used to know us well, too I wasn't born yet. And when I was born, they were married already. So we had a pretty good relationship with them. And we used to meet and go intoon the outskirts of Hamburg were beautiful woods and you would go have a picnic somewhere. And we'd do that occasionally and had good times and had good fun. And they had two sons, and one of the sons was takenin the last war, the last war. And it was in prison in Texas and losthe had lost during the war one of his legs and he wasI sometimes had the feeling that he was really a Naxi, and it was a very uncomfortable feeling to me even now to even think about that.

Q: Before Hitler came to power in Germany, could you describe what your daily routine life was like before the antisemantic rules? We were getting ready to talk about daily life, as Marion experienced it as a child in Hamburg, and various simulated environment before Hitler came to power.

A: I think I had a very happy childhood. My daily routine was like everybody elses, I went to school in the morning, and I came home and I had lots of friends. And on weekends we would go to the movies and we had a good time. I was invited to parties, birthday parties. And there was never any talk about Antisemitism. I don't know. I'm sure thatl didn't realize that there was such a thing that even went on because I never felt that they knew I was half Jewish and half not Jewish, but nobody really talked about it.

Nobody made any fuss over that. And my life was very good. We went every summer.

We went to Travemunde, which is a summer resort. My mother took us and my father came with us, too. And we had a wonderful time. In fact, many years later I visited and I remembered many things. And I feel like I was a very lucky little girl because I was loved by my parents and life was wonderful. I didn't know it was any different.

Q: And you don't remember peopleand you don't remember people even talking or your parents talking about the fact that your mother wasn't Jewish and your father was?

A: No, not really until Hitler came, and then all of a sudden the whole picture changed and my life was just so different. And it's like somebody woke me up out of a good dream, and I justlife was just different.

Q: Realizing that you can only remember as a child remembered obviously, what are your earliest recollections of the influence of Hitler on your daily life?

A: I think my parents were very, very protective of me, me not learning too much about it because as soon as Hitler came into power, my mother pulled me out of public school, and put me into this private school where I had one Jewish girl in the class and the rest of

them were nonJewish and everybody was friends with everybody. And nobody talked about it again, which I mentioned before.

Q: Do you remember how the environment or if the environment in your neighborhood began to change, soldiers, signs, anything that indicated that thethe bigger change?

A: Not on my street, not in the neighborhood, but I remember my parents talking about!

knew that there was a crystal night when downtown Hamburg, which was a good distance away from where we lived, they had crystal night, how they took all of the Jewish department stores and destroyed the windows and tore things out and

Q: Marion, you were saying that your parents shielded you as a child from things that might be upsetting or whatever. But we were talking about what nevertheless you saw through your child's eyes of what was going on around you once the Naxis came to power.

A: Well, I was very much aware that my parents were anxious to getespecially my mother was very much aware that she felt like the boys needed to get out. And she had a friend in China who oh, gosh, I don't even know how to explain it exactly, who was her only way to get my brother, Fred, out because he was born in Hungary and his quota number wouldn't be called for a long time just like my father's quota number. So she wrote this friend a letter and he gotmy brother, Fred, got a passage and could only take out very minimum things. He practically left with no money and he got out by ship and went to China and he ended uphe went to Shanghai and hated it there and went to Teresin and got a very good job and was fine, and thank God, my parents were grateful for that.

And my brother, Henry, got out even earlier so I was aware of those things very much so.

My brother, Henry, studied medicine and wasn't able to get his diploma in Germany and subsequently had to get out of the country because of Hitler. And he went, if I'm not mistaken, he studied his last year in Graz and my Uncle Chandor (ph) who was a lawyer and very well to do helped him to get out of Hungary. I don't remember how he went. I don't know wherehe left from Hungary somehow, and he went to the United States.

Q: Do you have a recollection of their leaving both the time in relation to when you left and what the household was like when they left and then what it was like afterwards?

A: Well, my brother, Henry, left first actually, and it was a blessing because we all knew that the Nazis were after the young men. And my mother was very much relieved that he left. And then my brother, Fred, left just about a yearandahalf or so before I left. And it was an empty feeling, but they were relieved, and they were happy. And I knew that things were getting worse and worse. So my feeling was the same way, but I cried when he left and we were very sad when they were both leaving, but it is always for the best.

Q: Both brothers understood that they should leave. I mean, there was no argument in the family about whether or not whether they should leave?

A: No, not at all. In fact, they were dying to get out. Things around didn't look so good and the newspaper sounded terrible and the Jews just hadespecially the men had to get out, but my father was very much against getting me out because he kept thinkinghe was a German officer in the Austrian armynot a German officer, actually Hungarian army.

And years ago he felt that they weren't really going to touch us, and my mother evidently knew better and saw to it that the boys got out, but I really got out just on the very bitter end. And I felt like I didn't want to go either, but what child at 14 or 15 wants to leave their parents? So I was also sent away.

Q: And even though your father didn't feel as strongly about it as your mother did, he was willing to go along with your mother and work to get the three of you out of the country?

A: Oh, yes, once he really realized how bad things were getting, he was relieved that we were able to get out. And I was the baby in the family. And I was his little daughter, and he used to call me pipian meaning doll and it was very hard for him. I think he took it almost harder than my mother to see me go.

Q: I wanted to ask you, Marion, about your father's business and how it was affected by the rise of the Naxis in Germany.

A: Right after my parents got married, the money he had for the passage to go to Europe tonot from Europe to America, he had that money. And I don't know how he managed, but he opened up a bank in the main railway station in Hamburg. It was an exchange bank for the foreigners who cameall of the foreignersin those days we didn't have planes so they consequently came by train and they would come in there and exchange their currency. And also a lot of people came from abroad or from other parts of Europe and would put a deposit, and then they also had little saving accounts. And through the years, in fact, I remember!I have wonderful memories, my father taking me sometimes on Saturdays. He only stayed a half day, he would take me along. And there was a candy store next store, and the lady knew me by then and I would always have a real good time eating all kinds of chocolate and having fun. But then when Hitler came, the way I understood it, is that they just came in and says you can't be in the front window anymore, you can't be here anymore and this is it and we're taking over. And they gave him like equivalent to a dollar or whatever it was. It was just very little bit. And I don't even know if they gave him anything to be perfectly honest. And that was the end of it. I remember the only time I have ever seen my father cry except for when I left is when he came home and told my mother that the Gestapo came and took it over and that was it.

Q: Was he able to work anywhere after that time?

A: No, never worked anymore, just stayed home. Was depressed a lot, for a good while.

But he got over it and then he kept himself busy with other things. He tutored around, but he didn't makehe didn't ask for any money for that. We were fairly comfortable. And my mother soldwhat they call in Germany a coeur, which is one of the paintings, pictures I brought in, you can see it. It was a diamond necklace and they sold that. And life became quite different from what it was before.

Q: And at that time both of your brothers were already gone?

A: Yes, they were.

Q: Why don't you tell me a little bit more about your relationship with your mother, and what you remember doing with her before you left for the United States?

A: My mother was a very courageous lady. She wasI don't know if I mentioned, she was very talented, did I mention on the tape that she played piano and she played the violin?

And she hadafter Hitler tookafter they took my father's bank, she opened up a bridge club. In the early days she did bridge for pleasure, but then she opened up right downtown in Hamburg. It was called the Eikster House. It was right on the Eikster, which is the body of water in the center of downtown. And she opened up downstairs a bridge club and people would have to call, and she would charge a certain amount, and she would arrange bridge games for them. And I guess that broughtthat brought in a little income. Before that when I was little, before she started working she was always a very up person. She was happy and fun to be with. And I was just telling somebody in all of the years, my early years, I have never remembered my mother ever complaining about her health. I mean she was always just well and veryl think she was very smart. She was the one who saw that we all got out and she was just a super lady. She could sew. She could do anything.

Q: Do you remember, Marion, your mother or your father or both of them sitting down with you and/or your brothers and talking in a basic way about the situation and the decision they had made to get the three of you out of the country?

A: No, I don't remember any of that. I don't think they evermaybe they sit down with Henry, but I thinkno, I don't remember that. I don't.

Q: Tell me a little bit about what you remember about when your mother took you out of school and begin having you tutored in English and kindergarten teaching training?

A: Well, inasmuch as I was very young, and I believe very immature, she wanted to be sure that I had some little knowledge of something. So I tookin Germany the kindergarten, the first person who invented kindergarten was Froebel. And she sent me to a school where they taught kindergarten teaching, and one of the reasons she also did that is because the Swartzes that gave me an affidavit to come to the United States,

Mrs. Swartz, who were distant relatives of ours had a nursery school. And so she felt like I could make myself useful there. And although I didn't speak the language that well, I only had four years of English and four years of French. I spoke a little English, but not really well. I also took private tutor lessons from an English teacher to become a little more fluent in English, which I reallyit helped a little bit, but when I came to the United States, I felt like everybody had chewing gum in their mouth, and I couldn't even understand one word.

Q: I assumed that when she took you out of school and put you in these other classes, that she was telling you about what her plan was for you?

A: She did tell me a plan that she felt like it was important for me to get a little more of an education and learn something because most likely I will have to go to work because I couldn't, you know, continue going to school because there was nobody really to pay for me. And the folks that I came to live with were wonderful, but they never said that I could go back to school. I was working for her in the nursery school. And in a way it was a blessing because I was busy from morning until night and never had really much time to think. And I drove in a station wagon. I didn't drive the car, but I drove in the back to pick up the children from nursery school. It was a private school, mostly for very, very wealthy children and it helped me a lot because I learned to speak the language quickly and the Swartzes were wonderful to me.

Q: And your mother talked to you about going to Baltimore, and the family that you would be staying with and what you would be doing?

A: Yes, she mentioned it. She mentioned it. And that's why she felt like I ought to take this further and get a little more information about handling children. But when I first got there, it was hard because I didn't speak the language that well. But within a year, I was almost fluent with it. And I got a little pocket money when I first started out. And then as the years went on, I made a little more money, and that was that.

Q: Marion, I wanted to ask you now about the particular arrangements that your mother made for you to get out of the country and why she chose those arrangements?

A: When my brother, Fred, went downtown in Hamburg to get a quota number, I don't know if it was a Post Office or the courthouse, I don't even know that, but he was supposed to get himself a quota number. And while he got that number, he also got it for me and he got it for my mother, but he couldn't get it for my father except a Hungarian number. The quota numbers were by what country you were born, not what county you lived in. And my brother Fred was born in Hungary, and my dad was born in Hungary, and my brother, Henry, was born in Germany, and I was born in Germany, and my mother was born in Germany. So our numbers were called so much earlier than the

Hungarian numbers. Hungary is a small country and so it took forever to call them and when we { Interview interrupted by a change of tape }

Q: This interview is being made on behalf of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. The interview is continuing with Marion Friedman. This is Side Two or Side B of the first tape of the interview. And it's November the 22nd, 1997. Marion, we were talking about the process by which you were beginning to leave Germany yourself.

A: About our quota numbers, right? Well, the quota number was very difficult. It did not let anyone from Hungary out for a good while. And my mother had a quota number with me. And when we were called, my two brothers were out already. When we were called, my mother wouldn't go with me because she felt like she wanted to stay with dad because she had all of her good life with him and so she was going to stay with him. And I got out and my parents stayed home. And the leaving was very, very difficult. My dad did not really want me to leave and so it made it very hard. I left from Hamburg, Germany.

Unfortunately, my parents could not get a passage on the shipon the ship right from Hamburg. It was very much overbooked. So I had to go to Trias to catch the boatl was all of 15 years old and very immature, really a baby because I was spoiled. And my parents saw me to the train station. Everything was arranged. And the arrangement was that I was going to Trias. Somebody in Trias was meeting me from the hotel close to the railway station and picking me up and bringing me to the hotel. I was spending the night, and then they were going to take me back to the train to go to Trias. I was supposed to gooh, I'm sorry, I forgot to track back because I was going to Kern, Cologne. And the arrangements were that somebody was meeting me there in Kern and picking me up and taking me to the hotel, and spending the night and the next day taking me to the train station to go to Trias. And those were the arrangements. Well, let me go back. When I left Hamburg, and my parents took me to the train, my aunt and uncle and my two cousins and my best girlfriend who I was friends with ever since grammar school, everybody came to the train. And needless to say, everybody was crying including me very much so. And my father was very upset. And just before I left, my parents wanted to give me something I had always wanted. And they had brought me this lovely trench coat for the trip. I always wanted that with the flaps on top. And I guess I was a typical teenager. And so anyway we got onto the train station. The train arrived and it was a lot of excitement and a lot of kissing and a lot of crying. And I got on the train. And as I was waving, I remember saying my raincoat isn't here. My raincoat isn't here. Well, even my cousin couldn't catch the train, but it really wasn't so terrible because Imy parents could have sent it to me. And anyway I got to Cologne. And it was a nice ride. I had pleasant company in the compartment and somebody camesomebody was there already waiting with a sign with my name Tiaute Solomos (ph), please, you know, answer. And so I went

to him and he took me by car to the hotel. I had dinner there and went right to bed because I was tired emotionally and physically, very much so. Well I wasn't a dreamer normally, but in the middle out of nowhere, I heard my mother saying Tiaute, that's what she used to call me. And I thought I was dreaming. And then I heard something knocking on the door again. And I still thought I was dreaming, but I wasn't dreaming. My mother had taken the next train and come and rode all night through and got into Cologne around four or 5:00 in the morning to bring me the raincoat. And they decided to spendshe decided to spend the day with me in Cologne because my train wasn't leaving until that night. Well, to begin with, they didn't want to do it because it was costly, and they didn't feel like they should spend that money, but I guess they decided in the last minute that my mother wanted to do it anyway. So we spent the whole day in Cologne and it was really wonderful. We went sightseeing. We did everything together. It was sad, but it was wonderful. And forgive me. I'm a little tearyeyed. So then from there we went to the train station at night. And she put me on the train and all of the crying started again. Excuse the interruption, but it is very emotional. And we had to leave again so all of the kissing and the goodbyes went again. And I went off to Trias. And my mother took the train back to Hamburg. Well, we got to Trias, and there again were arrangements and the travel agent seen that we were takenthat I was taken to a hotel which was right in the harbor.

And it was the worse hotel I have ever seen in my whole life. And it was a terrible experience because there were lots of sailors there. And I was really scared. But I managed okay. I locked my doors. I went to sleep. And the next morning I was supposed to in Trias get the boat, which was going around the ship of Italy, I mean, the shore of Italy, excuse me, the shore of Italy and my parents just felt like it was wonderful for me to take that trip because God knows when I ever come back to Europe, and they thought it would be a wonderful experience for me because it was a beautiful trip. Well, Hitler marched into Poland. That's what they told us. And they canceled the trip and left us in this horrible hotel. And I had to stay there for three days. They gave us just enough money for the meals, very badly. The whole thing was very bad. And then they put us on a train after three days and the train was like a cattle train. It stopped at every little stop.

And we sat on the train all night until we got to Geneva. And I know it wasn't that long of a drive normally. Well, we got to Geneva and they transported us to the ship where you're getting your passage to get on the ship. And it was a great big car. I really didn't know anybody. There was one couple I got a little bit familiar with who were very kind to me.

And when I went out for dinner, they took me. We went to dinner together, which helped a lot. Well, we got into this port in Geneva and they had on the track, right there waswas the alphabet and you were supposed to stand in line to wait for your passage for yourto get on the ship. Well, my name was Salomos (ph) which I mentioned before so I was standing under "S" and we got in there at 7:00 in the morning. And by five or 4:00 or 4:30, they closed the office. And they made an announcement that everybody who is left has to go back to the hotel and wait there. Well, I was very, very tired. And I was just

beside myself. I wasn't going to go back into the horrible port hotel, these two, they were important. They booked us into thetook us to the cheapest little hotel and they were horrible. And I just sat on my suitcase and everybody else was leaving. And I just sat on my suitcase and cried my eyes out. As I said I was spoiled and I guess I shouldn't have done that, but I did it. And some young man came up and asked me what was the matter.

He was part of the ship line. And he said he was very sorry, he couldn't help me at all, but he'll call the manager of the department and I said well I'll sleep here. I'm not leaving. So the manager came and he asked me my name and lo and behold he knew my dad. He had done business in the Hamburg bank with him and he knew exactly who he was. Well, this gentleman was an elderly gentlemen. He took me for dinner right close by. He saw to it that I got on the boat and he was an utter stranger and I felt like I wanted to hug him and kiss him. I didn't because I was shy at the time but he was a godsend and I think God was good to me because from that time on I had a lot of luck. I really did. And from there I got on the boat and slept on the boat and the next morning we sailed for the United States.

Q: Marion, I'd like to back up a little bit, I don't think if you remember it, yes, you do, the date that you left Hamburg, this was December of "39, wasn't it?

A: Yes. Yes, it was Decemberit was December "39 and it was aboutit must have been about the 5th of December if I am correct. And the name of the line, the ship, was the Saturnia and our experience was very unusual on that ship. The ship was very nice and everything went very smoothly and one night on the ship they hadthey had dancers, it was like a regularalmost like a cruise line. And somebody asked me to dance, a young med student that had told me his story. He was studying in Poland. He was not Jewish, but he couldn't get into med school so he studied in Poland because of the war and all what was going on, he was coming back. So we were dancing and all of a sudden in the middle of the dance, we noticed that the machinethe noise of the ship had stopped and everybody was leaving the party down there and going to the sideside of the boat, what do you call the side of the boat? Anyway, and what had happened, you could see in the distance a tiny little pole coming out of the water. In spite of the fact it was dark, you could see it. And it was the first time in my whole life that I had ever seen in person a submarine coming to the top of theexcept in the movies I saw it, but it was very, very exciting and very scary. Well, what had happened is that it was a French submarine and they were taking two of the men and the women were hysterical and crying and screaming, off of the ship, two or three. They were chemists. They were engineers and chemists and they wanted some information. They took them off of the ship with the promise that they would arrive in the United States within a short time. Well, after I got to the states and after I got to Baltimore, there was a big article in the paper about it. They had the ship. The ship's name was the Saturnia, that these fellows were physicists, maybe that's what they were. I really don't remember. I'm sorry, but it was a very, very scary

experience because we thoughtI don't knowwe were really scared. And they took them the men. And the article in the paper described how they had come back to the United States. They wanted some information and I to this day don't know what it was.

Q: When you left in December of "39, did you know or have the sense that this was approaching the last opportunity for Jews to get out of the country? And what was your mother saying to you about your parents coming to the United States?

A: When I left I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that. My parents through the whole time while we were making arrangements for this trip, my mother kept saying don't worry about it. We'll get there. They will call our quota. We will see you I bet within a year we will be there. Well, she brainwashed me and so did my father. They all thoughtthey'll be there and everything will be okay again. And I lived with that thought all of these years when I first came all of these months that I was sure my parents were coming. Well, need I say more. They didn't come. My father wasparents were both taken to concentration camp. I have a letter here, which I brought. And I just hadn't seen that letter in 40 years. I put all of my parents" letters in a box, and I hadn't looked at it in a long time. And in this much I had this interview I brought them out, and I found a letter from my aunt where she was telling me in the letter that she was packing up things. This letter was written in 1946. She was packing up things becauseshe was helping my parents and my mother get ready because the Gestapo was picking them up to take them to concentration camp.

Well, I didn't know all of this until after the war was over. I didn't find out about it. And then I also heard from my aunt's husband, my mother's brother that the Naxis approached her and said you divorce that Jew and we will let you go. And evidently my mother used the same words she told me: I had the good years with him, I'm going to have the bad years and hopefully those bad years will get good again. Well, unfortunately they didn't get good again. My dad died on the train because he was diabetic and he didn't have any shots and by all rights I think the Naxis should have let her go, but they didn't. They brought her into concentration camp. She went to Minsk and I had heard they made her work in the laundry and then she went to the gas chambers in later years and that was it.

Q: How do you know the details of your father's death, that is, that he died in the car on the way and how do you know what little you know about your mother's death in Minsk?

A: I really don't know much about that except that my Uncle Willie who was my nonJewish uncle and worked for the government in a small way. I really don't know what he did exactly, found out that my father died on the train. They did not give him insulin, and he was a very bad diabetic and he couldn't exist. And he also told me that my mother was brought into the concentration camp and made to work in the laundry. And that's all I heard, and she died, too. And it was just unbelievable. To this day, I have a hard time really accepting it.

Q: When your aunt writes you this letter in 1946, she's referring back to an earlier period when she helped your parents to get ready. I assume that was 1941.

A: Yeah, it must have been much earlier because I got letters after "39. The firstoh, quite a few months I would say we were still able to correspond. And I had met in the meantime several people, you know, a lot of people. And I met a man who we fell in love and I was writing my mother that I was going to get married and she says, you know, she was very happy. My parents were both happy about that, but she kept saying please don't have a baby until I come because I want to be there. And that went on for several letters, so it wasn'tin fact, I brought some. And that was very hard to sustain that. | mean, you know.

Anyway that's the way it was.

Q: Do you have any idea around what time you would have been getting those letters and perhaps around what time you would have received the last letter from your mother?

A: Gosh, I really don't remember the dates. I have to look again on all of the letters, but some of them, I got rid of because when we lived in Baltimore after I gotwhen I left Germany and came by ship with the Saturnia, I came to Baltimore to distant relatives who gave me the affidavit and my brother, Henry, the affidavit and gave it to me. And I lived with them. They took me in. And I did teach nursery school just like I had mentioned before. So it was really a blessing that my mother was wise enough to make me learn these things, and that I was able and equipped to do some of those things because not speaking a language and coming makes it very difficult, but thank God I picked it up quickly.

Q: Marion, you and I have agreed to go back to the time when you were about to leave Germany and come to the United States to live with relatives in Baltimore, and so that you could give more detail about the circumstances of that departure under the Naxis" scrutiny and regulations.

A: Yes. Just before I left, we received a list of things that I was allowed to take and all of the things that I wasn't allowed to take. I was allowed to have two forks, two knives, two spoons and silver, sterling silver. I was allowed to take one feather bed, which was kind of tough to pack, but my mother managed. I was not allowed to take any sort of jewelry, even if there was any sentimental attachment to it. I wasn't allowed to take anything else and the clothes I had. I mean more clothes than just on your back, but we were allowed to take clothes, a trunkful. Well, my aunt who was a very fine seamstress sewed a lot of my clothes before I left. And I had a large trunk, and my mother saw to it that I had enough so that I wouldn't have to spend any money in the United States for buying clothes. I had enough to last me for a couple of years, if so necessary. And my aunt sewed all of that.

And they alsowell, when I left, I left with these things, but I also tookmy mother! had a little package with junk jewelry. I would say it was junk. I mean, it was just little things

from childhood, and none of it valuable. It didn't mean anything, but it was sentimental to me and so I took it. I figured some day I would maybe give it to my children or whatever.

And I took it along and many years later, when we werewhen we had alreadywhenafter I had gotten married and had children and moved to Greensboro and my husband, we built a home. My husband said to me before we moved in there, you know, honey, you ought to get rid of some of that stuff you've got there. And we looked through this little jewelry pack and threw away a lot of the things because they were really just child's jewelry, and I really didn't need and we didn'tand then our attention drew to one particular thing in there, which was dark, dark brown, and it was like little links, with a little chain on the end. Well, he looked at that and he says you know what, you ought to take that tomorrow to the jeweler and ask him if that was junk, too, because I really can't tell. Well, I took it the next day, and it turned out that my mother had dropped that piece into either vinegar or browned it with brown shoe polish. And the jeweler told me it was 18 karat gold, solid, and it was a very lovely bracelet, which I didn't remember at all. And she must have just stuck it in there and wanted to be sure that if I get stopped by the Naxisthey did go through my luggage, but they never looked in there, and if they had I wouldn't have been nervous because I would have never known because I knew nothing about it. So I came out pretty good out of that. Because it would have been a disaster if I had known. I would have been so nervous.

Q: Do you know of any possibility that you might have been able to leave with a sponsored group rather than go alone as you did to the United States? Do you remember any discussions about that with your family?

A: Never heard about that, and I never heard it being mentioned anywhere that I could get out with a group. I think it was too late. In "39 not many people got out anymore. It was December "39.

Q: Did your passport or visa or affidavit label you as a Jew, and if so, how?

A: Yes, mywhen I took out the passport, renewed my passport, they put Sarah in there.

And many years later when I went back to Germany, I had misplaced my birth certificate.

The woman said, you know, I'm sure your name isn't Sarah so I'll be happy to take it out when I redo your birth certificate.

Q: Marion, now, why don't you tell me about the circumstances under which your parents were taken away by the Naxis and as was related to you by your aunt and a letter that you've brought for us to copy for the Holocaust museum file dated some time in 1946?

A: After all of these years, I unpacked a package, which was very painful to me and I never looked at it anymore. And one of the letters I found was from my aunt and it was dated, like you just said. And she mentions in there! have the letter in my hand right hereshe mentions in there that tomorrowno, your mother told me that how happy she is

that you left and the boys left, and especially you because she felt the Naxis were coming tomorrow and she wasmy aunt and uncle were helping my parents to get ready for this trip. She sewed heavy linings into an old fur coat of hers. They had prepared their clothing, and my mothermy aunt made a suggestion, how about if I take these dishesmy parents had very beautiful dishes, and they had very beautiful things all together. She says how about if I take these dishes home and save them for hot toddy? And my mother said no. I want her to have everything, but I don't want you to take that because if the German government finds out, they might have a record of everything. I think they do, and if they find out, things will get even worse for us so just leave them. So consequently they left everything, all paintings, silver. We had a silver tray with beautiful bows on it.

They left everything. And the German government came in there and took the whole place, everything. And I got practically nothing. I got nothing.

Q: I'm going to jump ahead to one of your return trips to Germany and your discovering some of the things that had been in your parents" home when you visited a relative's home.

A: Oh, gosh, this is very painful because I was reallythis was really a dear aunt. She seemed like she was sincere and she seemed like they meant well and her husband was my mother's brother, but theywe were Jewish and they both were not. And it made it very hard when I visited their home, and when I came back the first time to Germany. And I saw paintings, which were very familiar. I knew they were my parents, but I didn't want to come right out with it. And I said God, that looks familiar. And she said oh, yes, she says that is yourthose are your parents" paintings. And then I looked around and I saw several more things, which were my parents. My mother had a very large selectioncollection of demitasse that goes back. Some were like one hundred years old, they were old, old demitasse. And she must have had 40 or 50 at least. Well, a bunch of those demitasse were sitting in my aunt and uncle's home. And it just killed me to think that they wouldn't have said, you know, for me to take it. Well, just before we left, she made a comment and she said, honey, if you want to takeshe called me sweetie, in other words. She says if you want some of your mother's demitasse, why don't you pick a few you like the best and take them. Well, I wasn't proud. I took them, but I should have taken them all really. And it really hurt me badly that even my own family would do something like that. I really couldn't believe it. And not only that, they also changed silverware. That I remember my mother! have a letter of my mother's where she wrote me that she exchanged all of her silverware from my uncle and aunt's plated silver. And they had sterling silver for 24, well P.S., I never heard about that when I got back to Germany.

And when I asked, nobody knew anything about that. And I know that that's the way it was. I'm positive. I would give my left fingers for it because I know. I know. And that was the end of that. We justI mean here's my own relatives that did that.

Q: Is there anymore in that letter about your parents" departure that you'd like to put on the tape?

A: No, not really. I have lots of letters here, and you just took the copy of them. And if anybody wants to read it in German, they are welcome to it, but it's just too painful for me to keep going over and over.

Q: I believe you mentioned that through some portion of 1941, you were still hearing from your mother, and her happiness that you had made it safely to America.

A: Right, and I do want to mention that I have a friend in Hamburg I went to school with.

And we retained this friendship all of these years. And she went to visit my mother everymy parents every single week before they went to concentration camp. And if anyone had caught them or seen them going into this building, they could have been taken to concentration camp. And it would have been horrible because if you go into a home, that's a different story, you know, you are visiting a Jewish home, but they were the only ones and the four occupants of that building who were Jewish. So when she went in there, she took a chance, but she hadshe could always say well I went to visit such and such. She knew the names of all of the occupants in that building. So she took a chance and she went in. And my mother used to write me that sheher name was Gertrude (ph) and came every single week to visit her just to keep her company, so there are lots of good people in this world, and even in Germany.

Q: Okay. Let's jump ahead a bit here. Stop me if youactually before we jump ahead, I would like you to talk to me a little bit about the photographs you brought, even though I have made copies for the file, I'd like for you to describe the earliest picture that you have of your parents with your brother, Henry, right?

A: Right.

Q: Okay.

A: Well, this was a picture of when my parents weren't married too, too long. I would say my brother, Henry, was about ten, 12 years old. My father is in the Hungarian uniform. It has to be Hungarian because he was in the Hungarian Army. And my mother is sitting there in a beautiful dress with a beautifulwhat they used to call in Germany, a collier, which had about oh, four or five diamonds on one side, and four on the other side, and the center diamond which was a little larger, which many years later during Naxi days they sold and lived on part of the time. And I cherish this picture, and I brought it to the museum because this is the way they looked when they were young. And then during the Hitler days, my brother who went to China, my brother, Fred, sent me a postcard, which was one of the last postcards he ever received from our father. And on the other sideon the side of the postcard was a picture of my father, my mother and me, the last picture

before I left. And I brought that also. And the postcard, what he wrote my brother, it's written on the other side. And I believe you also have a copy of that. But it's just a personal postcard. It doesn't say anything because they wouldn't send a postcard with anything dangerous to say because it was pretty late then already.

Q: Can you tell, Marion what, the date is on that postcard? I'm trying to read it.

A: It looks like "38 to me, but I'm not sure. That could be it. Yeah, because I was leaving in'39. And I guess it was

Q: That's right, and Henry was already there. That's right.

A: This is

Q: Fred was already there in China, and so that makes sense. The date was confusing.

Okay.

A: It is confusing.

Q: All right. And then the last picture is of you as a baby, so why don't we take a look at that?

A: Yes. Oh, that was just the picture. This was just the picture of me in a pretty little dress with a big bow, which really has no meaning of anything else. It's just that we had a good life once upon a time, and it was sad what happened. And I miss my parents. And I feel like it was such a terrible injustice that happened earlier. You want me to start? I think we need to also mention that I was sponsored by a wonderful family that was supposed to be either second or third cousins of my dad's. And they lived in Baltimore. It was an old family. The name was Mano Swartz Furrier. Their business was furs. And they give my brother, Henry, an affidavit. Henry was a doctor, my oldest brother, and gave me an affidavit. And his son and his wife who had two children took me into their home like a daughter. And this is the family I worked for in the nursery school. And this is the family who really got me on my feet. And this is the family who gave me my wedding when I got married.

Q: Tell me how you met your husband.

A: Well, it's a short story. I was living with the Swartzes who have a nursery school.

Mrs. Swartz had a nursery school. He has a fur store andLaura Swartz. And Laura Swartz had the camp out at in Baltimore in the country, the children's camp, quite big and quite lovely. And mythe man I married used to be in the printing business and did their yearbook for the camp, and did all of the advertising for the nursery school. And one day I was in my slippers looking like little orphan Annie and I was walking through the living room, not knowing that Laura Swartz was having a meeting with this man that I thought, you know, I wasn't even aware of what is going on. And she introduced me to him. And

then later on she came to me and asked me, he asked her if he could date me, and we started dating. And four months later he asked me to marry him, and two months later we got married. And I had two children.

Q: He was in the Army, isn't that correct?

A: Yes, after we were married. I had one son already. He went into the service and he was stationed with a first army and, oh, God, whatever. And when my son was not even a year old, he went into the service and when he was threeandahalf years old, he came back. So he didn't even know his son. And his son didn't know him at all. And it was really quite a reunion. And my son only knew him by looking at his picture. And when he came back, I was at the time teaching at camp. I was in charge of the nursery school. And when he came back, I took a blanket, and we all went out in the woods. I got a substitute for me for the day. And my little boy looked at him and says go away from me, you're not my daddy. My daddy is sitting on my chifforobe. And so we've had really quite a few experiences.

Q: You mentioned that your husband had been present at the opening or the liberation of some of the concentration camps with the first army, didn't you tell me that?

A: No.

Q: Okay.

A: See, the concentration camps after they just had been liberated, and the horrors, and what had happened. And from the time he came back, rightly so, he had a terrible, terrible hate against the Germans. Would never buy a German car. Never buy any German china.

Never do anything in Germany, anything connected with it. But then as the years went on, many, many years later, I wanted to go back because I had this very dear girlfriend in Germany and Iwe wanted to see each other. And I still had an uncle and aunt there. And he sort of mellowed, and we went back. And we saw the countryside. And we went places I had never been before. And his famous saying was that land is too good for the Germans.

Q: Did you go to Lubeck, your mother's hometown?

A: Yes, I visited Lubeck several times. It's a beautiful city and a lot of old things. It's very interesting.

Q: Is there still family there, Haagen family?

A: No, not at all.

Q: How did you end up going from Baltimore to North Carolina with your husband whose name was Harry Silver?

A: Silvers.

Q: Silvers.

A: Right. Harry always wanted to go in business for himself. He was working for his brother after he left the printing business with his other brother. He has two brothers. He worked for his brother. The company was called Shapiro & Whitehouse. It was Silverstein, Shapiro & Whitehouse, well, whatever, he worked there. And he was doing a lot of traveling. And by that time we had already two more sons after he got out of the service several years later. And he traveled through the south a great deal, and he liked the south. And he had a chance to buy into a business in High Point, North Carolina, but he felt like inasmuch I have always lived in a big city, High Point was really a hick town at the time. It was very small town. And so we moved to Greensboro, which was a little more sophisticated town, a little more broadminded and had four or five colleges there.

And we settled there, but the business was in High Point.

Q: You had mentioned to me earlier that there were very few Jews in the area, and I wanted to ask you two questions. What made you determined to raise your children Jewish and what did you go { Interruption by tape change } End of File One Beginning File Two

Q: This is an interview under the auspicies of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. The interview is with Marion Friedman. The date is November the 22nd, 1997.

And this is the second tape, tape two, the first side, Side A. Marion, we were talking about being Jewish and making a Jewish home in North Carolina when you moved there with your husband and your young children.

A: When I moved there, number one, Harry was Jewish. And we just raisedwe just had a Jewish family and wethis was a Jewish home. I never had a Christmas tree again, although I sometimes missed it because I did think it was beautiful, and maybe I shouldn't even say that, but it was nice. But I got accustomed to not having it, and I was perfectly happy after that. And we had Hanukkah. We gave gifts. Our children were raised Jewish. They went to temple. Both were Bar Mitzvahed and quite a few years later, we had a little daughter, and she, too, went to temple and she was graduated from temple.

What was it like, a bar mitzvah?

Q: Confirmation.

A: Confirmation. Thank you. I think it's getting late. And so I did have a Jewish home. I lit Friday night candles. We didn't go every Friday night, but we went, you know, with the children every so often.

Q: When did youyou mentioned to me earlier when your children became interested in issues involving Holocaust and your history in particular. So why don't you talk about that a little bit?

A: Well, when they were small, they weren't interested at all. But since they have become adults, they have gotten very interested especially my older son has read all of the history of Germany, the history of the Naxis and read every book and has become thehe just hates everything about it. And to this day, we don't argue about it. We have very hot discussions. He cannot understand how I could ever want to go back to that horrible country. And I tried to explain to him I had a wonderful childhood. I have a very dear girlfriend who was good to my parents. I still have an uncle and aunt if I know what I know now wouldn't have gone back so see. But he has a hard time understanding, but we did go back. He invited me last August a year ago. We went back, and I think he still feels partially that way, but I think he's overcome a little bit of that. The hatred has almost changed his personality, I think. I mean, he's really obsessed with this German bit, but I think it's a very bad way to be because you can't live that way and you can't have a happycan't be a happy individual if you constantly harp on that, but I might be wrong.

Q: Tell me apropo of that, why don't you talk a little bit about what your attitude today is towards what happened to you and how you feel now about those experiences and how they've affected your life.

A: That's very hard for me to analyze exactly and come to the point. I have a very terrible, terrible loss inside of me that I had no parentsand it's hard and as you can tell I still get upset about it. But otherwise I think I'm fairly well adjusted. I think my life has been very good. And I think I have just through the years closed something in my brain because I justl don't know if I'm ignoring it or how it all happened, but I just close it off and forge ahead and try to do the best with the good things, not the bad things. And I don't know. Nobody has ever analyzed it, but I just feel like there's no other way to explain it.

Q: You mentioned to me when we talked on the phone that it's gotten a little bit harder to do that in recent years. And I wonder what your thinking is about that.

A: Well, I think as we get older, we become more sensitive to our heritage. And I think about it as a parent, but I would feel like if I had to do to that to my children, you think more of your heritage. And I think what happens is that you relate to yourself what would you do if this happened to you, and how would you be able to handle it. And it breaks my

heart to think my parents had to go through all of that and never saw the grandchildren or anything or anything, dammit.

Q: Marion, why don't you talk a little bit abouta little bit more about going back to Germany, specifically perhaps as a guest of the German government?

A: Well, my feelings were very, very mixed because in a way I wanted to go back and I wanted to take advantage of the invitation, which was free for me and my husband, but I guess I really don't know how to explain that properly because I felt like they took so much away from me, and they could never repay me. And whatever I could get back, and this sounds very strange to say, I would take advantage of. And Iwe went back and thank God my husband went with me and wethe German government treated us like royalty, which made me sometimes almost nauseous because I felt like it was almost like an insult, and yet I took it for what it was worth. I don't know. And some of the tours they took us to were very upsetting because they took us to a Jewish cemetery, which they wanted to move, and some of the Jewish people there wanted it to be staying the way it was, and there was a big fight about that. Then they took us to an orthodox Jewish center, which was very interesting for me. I had never been to anything like that before and we took partthe German government gave the dinner, but the thing was in the synagogue, and they were all orthodox Jews, and I sat upstairs. The service was very interesting, but it was very hard for me to understand. We sat upstairs, and my husband sat downstairs.

And then after the service, we had dinner. And onethe president of the congregation, a doctor, got up and introduced himself, and welcomed us and also mentioned something, which was shocking to me. There was quite a large Jewish community in Hamburg now, and that he, himself, has done a lot of studies on Europe all over and moved back from Poland, moved to Hamburg, Germany, living in part of that center where we were visiting. And he says that he feels that in his own mind that Hamburg right now of Germany is the safest place for Jews to be because everything goes in a circle, and he feels like this is a good place to be. And those are the very words he used. That upset me, too. But otherwise the trip was very enlightening. And some of the things were very beautiful. I had a chance to see my friend in Hamburg again. And that's about it.

Q: Why don't you finish up the tape by telling me about your receiving this socalled black book from the German government that gives statistics about what happened to your parents during the war?

A: When I received that book at first I couldn't believe what I saw. I felt like it was the worse thing I've ever seen. I mean, to write a book, and tell us of all of the Jews they killed and sent me a book with my parents" names in it, at firstmy first reaction was I was going to throw it in the garbage can, but then I took a second look at it and I thought well, I'm going to keep it for my children to see what really happened so nobody will ever

forget what really happened. And I don't think it would have been printed if wasn't true, but a lot of people think it wasn't true, but it was all true.

Q: Is there anything else you'd like to add before we finish the interview?

A: With all of these tragedies, I feel like I have still beenas much as I hated losing my parents and it was a great loss to me, I feel like I was a very lucky girl to go through life the way I didexcuse melucky to have a wonderful husband, and a second husband. My first husband died. And I had great children, and we've had about as happy of lifeeverybody has problems, but I think we are all very fortunate. And I think my children feel that way, too. They had a great dad. And I will sign off now.

End of File Two Conclusion of Interview