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ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton Interview with Abe Malach May 16, 1999 Beginning Tape One, Side A

Q: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Jeff and Toby Herr collection, this is an interview with Abraham Malach, conducted by Regina Baier, on May 16th, 1999, in Mr. Malach's home. This is a follow up interview to a USHMM videotaped interview conducted with Abraham Malach on March seventh, 1996. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum gratefully acknowledges Jeff and Toby Herr for making this interview possible. This is tape number one, side A. And I would like to begin with an easy question, asking you what is your name and give us your date and place of birth.

A: My name is Abraham Malach and I was born on May 12th, 1935, in Zwolingvadome, Poland, so that I'm, at this time, 64 years of age.

Q: Now, before we continue, I would like you to -- I would like to wish you a belated but happy birthday.

A: Thank you.

Q: I think it's close enough, today's the 16th, so that was only four days ago.

A: Correct.

Q: Yeah.

A: Thank you.

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Q: The core of our interview today, will deal with the time after liberation, up to the present day, but I thought it would be helpful for us to go back a little -- a little bit, to the year 1944, to clear -- to clear up a few events that you talked about in the videotaped interview. In 1944, you and your family -- your immediate family were put on a transport from the work camp in Starahovichen, it's in Poland?

A: Correct.

Q: To Auschwitz?

A: Yes.

Q: And at that time, your youngest sister was not with you any more, because she had already been taken away during a raid in an earlier work camp. And your parents decided -- that's what you said in the earlier interview, your parents decided that your father should stay together with your older brother and your mother should stay with you and your older sister.

A: That is correct.

Q: And the hope was that it might be possible for your father and your se -- your brother to flee, but that hope did not come about. So, what haven -- what happened when you arrived in Auschwitz? What -- What do you remember?

A: The -- The time when we were brought to Auschwitz was the height of the transports from all over Poland and Hungary, Czechoslovakia. And they -- the ovens were working full capacity to process all these people that were coming in. And so that we happened to have been in a holding pattern, not given the numbers on arrival, USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 4 as inmates of the camp had [indecipherable] for some week or -- or so, we were held - - kept, to be processed -- in other words, to be taken to the ovens. But somehow, we ended up getting the inmates numbers tattooed and processed as inmates of the camp.

All I know is that we arrived in Auschwitz in December, somewhere around July, I believe, and not very much later, the time of the Jewish holidays -- the Jewish New Year would fall som -- at about September, when, on the first or second day, rather, of the Jewish New Year, the selection was conducted i-in the men's section of the Auschwitz camp. And there they took away all the youngsters and of course, disabled people and old men who could not work and my brother was taken away at that time.

I became aware of it through my mother, who had gotten word of it through other people that had seen my father.

Q: You did mention earlier that you did eventually get a number. Would you tell us your number?

A: Yes, my number is 7671, was preceded by the letter B. No, it is actually 7871. It is tattooed with a instrument like a pen and ink and it does not -- I never wash this off.

Q: Thank you. You stayed with your mother and your sister in the women's block?

A: I'm trying to recall whether I stayed actually with my mother for long, because I know that I ended up with youngsters even younger than myself, including some Russian children that were separated from their parents. And there were children and even babies, including babies. Now, in Auschwitz, Dr. Mengele was conducting experiments and that may have been one of the reasons that one of the -- the barracks

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 5 was filled with youngsters that did actually not work, per se, but maybe were kept for other reasons. And I was one of -- one of those kids that was kept at the children's barracks.

Q: In the earlier videotape, you also mention that you worked as a messenger at one point. How did that come about and what exactly did you do?

A: My recollection is that before coming to Auschwitz, one of the friends of my father had made this arrangement that it would be important that I should be shown to be useful to the German commander of the camp, if I was to be like a messenger boy.

And in some way, I was also found to be doing that in Auschwitz, occasionally. But it was not a job that you -- that you perform, it was -- that kapos or whatever, whoever was in charge, would need somebody to carry a message or a note, whatever.

Q: Did you have any -- Do you have any recollections of -- of interacting with the children in the children's barrack? I mean the -- obviously it was not a place to -- to socialize in any way, but what -- do you remember any particular relationships?

A: I cannot recollect as being able to do much socializing, besides -- with the other children that were in that block. It's difficult for me to recollect what -- how we really -- the day -- from morning til night, how we spent our time, whether it was going out with the working people and being around to be sent on errands or other -- in other ways, kept busy. That's maybe why there was no social interaction with other children.

Q: Do you remember what you -- what you were given to eat? Do you remember?

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 6

A: To the best of my recollection, it's -- on -- in the morning, we were given a brew that was like a tea. It was, if I'm not mistaken, no breakfast, no -- no bread, only at lunchtime, we may have had a slice of bread in the soup and in the evening, two slices of bread, maybe a soup, also.

Q: Were you able to see your mother and your sister after a certain point? Did you see -- Did you ever see your father?

A: I was able to see my mother, because I -- I did, in the beginning, I was sleeping in the same barracks as my mother and my sister. The children's barracks, this came about later, when they collected the children into a separate barracks. My father, I had seen once, when -- on a working assignment, a crew of people had been brought into the women's section, where they were doing some construction or road improvement, whatever, maybe for the railroad, whatever. So, I had seen my father once during that time.

Q: Now, was one incident that you talked about in the videotaped interview, that stands out with particular gravity. Would you speak about that again?

A: Lassume that the -- the mention of -- in my tape, the -- a mention of --

Q: [indecipherable]

A: I'm sorry. The mention of the toy [indecipherable] by a kapo, when she wanted to hand me a toy and I refused it, because I knew at the time that my older brother had been taken away.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 7

Q: That kapo played an even larger role there. Could you speak a little bit about that,

too? She gave you food, but she also requested things from you.

A: The -- I was only going on nine at the time, and the memory of the extra food was

the one that was outlasting the other experience, even though a Freudian doctor might

make a big deal of -- more of a big deal about that -- the influence of that. To me, the

-- to me, the extra meal was the life sustaining part and -- and being with the kapo and

seeing her, having a, so to speak, own possessions of -- a side table like, a -- a flower -

- around flower table that had -- was covered with a -- a tablecloth and on the lower

shelf she kept some extra food, bread and a piece of salami and she would offer me an

extra meal. That's what was, to me, the -- the most important part of the memory.

Q: And she also molested you in the end.

A: In retrospect, I -- I'm -- when I recall the experiences, when she took me to bed,

the few times. What a -- That is typical of a -- a so-called pedophile or child molester

or a person desperate for a male companionship, I cannot tell the difference. But she

was not actually forcing herself on me, just being playful.

Q: Ho-How did you feel when that happened? Did you know what she was asking,

ultimately?

A: Actually, I was not fully conscious of -- I didn't really know the implications of it

all. All I know is that I was more attracted to the girl that was washing me and

fondling my private parts than to the woman who took me to bed.

Q: Do you know anything about her? Do you know her name, her nationality, her --

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A: Unfortunately I don't, and -- whether she was Jewish or Polish, I'm not sure, but there's -- someone had told me that she survived the war, but nobody -- just -- by -- by now I am sure that she is not alive, because I was -- I was eight or nine years old, but that woman must have been in her 40's.

Q: What language did you speak together?

A: Ido believe that we spoke in Polish.

Q: What -- What do you remember about the last days or the time before liberation happened? Do you remember your -- how -- how you -- in what kind of physical condition you were? Was there anything that -- that prepared you for things to come?

Anything?

A: At the later part, in Auschwitz, I had lost contact with that woman, or rather, she must have been sent away, onto another camp. So I was more emaciated when the Russians arrived, and the only preparation for a big change was that when I -- it was one of the children or someone who'd urged me on to hide in the bunks of the sick children and not to join the march -- the evacuation of the camp. And that was about three days before the first Russians arrived. As I mentioned in the previous tape, the -- the first Russians, they were haggard and themselves hungry and looking for what was in the stores and I ha -- in the -- what food or clothing the Germans may have left in the barracks.

Q: Did they provide any medical assistance, so instead of giving you food, they were asking you to help them find food, in a sense.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 9

A: Well, it's -- was the first two soldiers who arrived, first two foot soldiers, but after they liberated, the Russians moved in in force. They did -- Or behind them, the civilian administration and aid organizations helped organize the evacuation of the children and where possible, to reunite them with their parents. There were some children so little that they didn't even know their names.

Q: Do you remember the moment when you realized that you were free -- at least free to go? That -- And what did you do, what happened?

A: Unfortunately, it didn't happen that way, that the first two Russian soldiers coming into the camp, instead of hugging and kissing them, and feeling free, one said to the other the word, Evrai, which was like a bad way of saying a Jew. And it was -- it stung me as being no different than the German soldiers before them, so that myself and two other boys, we ran away to the town of Auschwitz.

Q: So you walked?

A: Yes.

Q: How long did it take you, do you have any recollections? [indecipherable]

A: Even -- Even though it was -- it -- it was a harsh winter, 1945, and this being in the beginning of January, but I -- I was so asteeled to bad weather, to cold, and to a lot of -- exposed to a lot of things, that I did manage to get to the town, whether is was a few kilometers or a few miles, I don't recall.

Q: And what happened when you got there, to the town?

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 10

A: At first we were taken in by a -- we were separated, I -- I was taken in by a childless couple. The childless couple, they were, during the way -- during the day they were out working, or whatever, and I was like locked in in a type of cabin, one room type situation, and --

Q: How did they find you? Did you knock on a door, or did they see you wandering around? How -- How did that happen that they took you in? Do you remember?

A: I cannot recall how it happened that this particular couple took me in, but I presume that we did wander in the streets and that eventually we were led to that couple who had no children. But staying with that couple turned out to be a big disappointment, being that I had little in common with them and they must have realized themselves, that they cannot make of me a -- a future for that -- i-it wouldn't work unless I went for some schooling. And that's how they ended up bringing me to a monastery, where they had peep -- orphans and a school -- and a school -- in that monastery they had a school.

Q: While you were with those two people, how did they treat you though? I mean, they locked you up during the day, but did they give you food, did they take care of -- did they give you medical attention?

A: I don't think that they were able to give me medical attention at the time. It was, for them, also hard times and a matter of survival. But I did have food, everything is relative. I know that I -- I was not going around at the starvation level that I was living under in Auschwitz.

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Q: How long do you estimate, were you with them before you went to the [indecipherable] monastery?

A: It's a matter of weeks, because it was not very long from when I got into the monastery that a mass funeral was organized in Auschwitz for all those that were killed in the last minute before the evacuation of Auschwitz, and people who could not keep up with the march, they were shot by the roadside. Some brutally killed, stabbed and cut, people without limbs. So that mass funeral, it's enough for a child to -- to have nightmares for the rest of his life. But what helped me in that -- on that day I -- that I met someone who directed me to go back to the camp, that the children were being taken care of. And I left the monastery. But the thing about the -- this stay in the monastery is amazing to me, because now that -- so many years later, 40 or 50 years later, when I -- I didn't practice Polish for all these years, but I do have Polish ladies working for me and I was able to recall, in Polish language, the blessings or prayers that I studied at that time, in the monastery.

Q: So you were -- you were attracted by the rituals there? Did you have a sense of your Jewish identity then?

A: [had enough knowledge of my background that I knew -- I knew who my parents were and their names, the names of my sister who survived and of course the sister and the brother who were taken away. And -- But I saw in -- at that time, anything that came across my way, to enhance my knowledge is -- was engraved in my

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memory, whether it was studying in the monastery, or later, given the opportunity to

read books.

Q: I think I would like to stop here, this is the end of cassette of tape one, side A.

End of Tape One, Side A Beginning Tape One, Side B

Q: This is a continuation of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview

with Abraham Malach. This is tape number one, side B. So you went -- you went

back to the camp and -- and then what happened? What -- What -- What was the

situation, who else was -- was it just Russian soldiers in the camp now, or was -- were

there others as well? What -- What was the situation and what happened to you

specifically, when --

A: [had -- This was administered by some aid groups from the United States, that

they were feeding and clothing, taking care of the remnants of the children that either

were liberated in Auschwitz proper, or possibly collected from other places, whether

hidden or -- children, or what -- what other thing -- whatever means they collected

them. There was not soldiers per se, and we -- they were fed cafeteria style, that you

would walk up to a counter and someone would fill your plate. In the beginning, was

hard to just take the plate and with one -- that you would ask for an extra filling

before you went to the table to eat, until -- it took time for you to adjust that if you ate

that one portion, and if you were still hungry, you would -- you could go back and ask

for the next portion. That lasted some weeks, that we were kept still in Auschwitz and USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 13 from there they sent us to Krakow. That was a major city in Poland, where they had better physical conditions. And they started to get lists of people who survived the war, to be able to match them up with children that were collected in the -- in -- from camps. And that's how, eventually, my mother and my sister found out that I was alive.

Q: Could you say a little bit more about how you related with -- there were other children, of course, did you -- did you speak about what happened among each other, what -- or did you just stay quiet? What -- What -- What sort of -- How did you live in that camp?

A: Well, there were some children -- or children and the passing of time was -- would consist of inventing games, whatever. My outstanding recollection from that period is that I happened to have had a sort of a suitcase. It was a plastic container that some German soldiers abandoned, or whatever. And there was this older girl who knew to read and write, that made with me a deal that I would give her that suitcase in exchange for her teaching me to read. And that's how I got into reading. The first books that I could get hold of was -- happened to be the Polish classical literature, like Kovadis and the trilogy of the Yantadoche.

Q: So she taught you very quickly, then?

A: Oh yeah, I -- I picked up the alphabet very quickly, very quickly, because before I even attended school, which was a year later, I already was devouring books in Polish that the m -- all the major classical books of Polish literature. Of course the Kovadis

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 14 and -- and -- in original, in Polish and the Yantadoche, I find that it was written in a simple -- in a language that I could understand and not only comprehend, but also, it penetrated my consciousness, that I recall details from those books to this day. When -- The other day we were -- we were driving in the car and some Spanish person had the symbol of the fish on the back of his car, on his bumper and I asked this Polish girl, "What is -- Do you know what this is?" And she didn't even realize that it comes from Kovadis, the story of the first Christians, when they were getting together, and -- in secret communications they would -- this was a form of them to identify that they were Christian. They would draw on -- in the sand, the shape of a fish. So a-anything that I -- I read, or later, in the first years of school, it just stayed with me forever.

Q: But there was no organized schooling at the time. Ho-How -- And how long did you stay in that camp?

A: I was in -- in Krakew not very long. We were sent for recuperation to Starachowice, which is in Poland, a place of -- I don't know if they have spa, or whatever, but it is a place that people go for summer vacations. So they ha -- they had a villa there, where they set us up. And while I was in -- in Sacopana, my older sister was five years older than me, she came to pick me up. And amazingly, I -- I did remember -- I did recognize her and know that she was my sister and that she took me to reunite with my mother.

Q: What had happened -- Did you know what had happened to your mother and your sister and your father in the meantime, and what -- what had happened?

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A: While in Auschwitz, my mother and my sister were, in the later stages, in a different part of the camp, and each -- that they had separated. Auschwitz was divided into a number of camps, separated by electrically charged wires. And I was not seeing them, I was not able to see them for a long time. However, I did know that they were in the -- in a separate part of the camp, because on one duty in the kitchen, I managed to get, somehow, a few cigarettes in exchange for a potato of -- to somebody and I did send it, through a cousin of mine, to my mother and my sister. Of course, when -- before the -- was before the Germans withdrew from the camp, they took the inmates with them on a forced march. So, I had -- When I was liberated, I didn't know about whether my parents did survive or not. But when the time came that my sister came to pick me up, I did go with her.

Q: When you -- When you s -- When you s -- When you saw her, you said you recognized her right away. Did she recognize you right away, too?

A: I cannot recall the actual reunion in detail, but it's amazing and surprising that -- actually, n-no, it was not years that we were separated, it was a matter of one year -- of less than one year that we were separate, so I did recognize her, yes.

Q: And how did she get back to Poland? She had seen a list somewhere and she knew you were there and your mother had sent -- where was your mother and your sister liberated?

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 16

A: My mother and my sister, it was a unique case where they managed to be together all that time, until liberation. They were liberated near the German border, near Leipzig and oh, I -- I'm -- I forget the name of the camp, but at any rate, near --

Q: [indecipherable] Ravensbriick?

A: -- near -- Ravensbriick.

Q: Ravensbriick.

A: So, they traveled to -- back to Poland by train and they went to the town that we came from and the Red Cross and other agencies, they were circulating these lists of survivors and somehow they found me on -- on such a list and my mother was too weak to travel, so she had my sister go to pick me up.

Q: Did you know whether -- where your father was at that time? Did your mother know?

A: No, it took quite awhile longer to find out that my father was in the meantime liberated in Germany, in -- in Dachau, and that he was on a list that he was moved to a place in Bavaria called Amberg, which is not far from Nuremberg. So, when we -- when my mother got that news, we started out on the track to Germany. By the time we got there -- it involved weeks and weeks of travel -- also, just getting out of Poland was an ordeal. There was no -- It was no simple matter, we -- there -- she had to bribe -- to buy our way out to freedom, to the German side, to the western part of Germany, where -- the American side. We were smuggled out from East Berlin to West Berlin on a truck and by the time we got to that town -- to that little town,

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 17

Amberg, my father was in Poland, looking for us, and it took a whole year until we

were reunited. My sister, myself and my parents, we were reunited, all four of us, only

1946.

Q: H-How did you live during that time? Ho -- How did you su-survive again, during

that time?

A: In Poland, the Russians were not very great in organizing the -- and helping these

surviving people from the camps and a lot of those who actually were liberated under

the Russian occupation zone, died from neglect and not -- not improper care, whereas

in the American sector, they -- they were more organized and they didn't allow these

half-starved people all of a sudden to be given full meals and just any amount of it, in

order not to overwhelm their system and -- and not die from overeating or whatever.

Im-Improper medical care.

Q: So you traveled by -- by truck, by train, on foot, until you finally --

A: Yes, the thing was, in Poland, my mother somehow was -- she was a business

woman from before the war and she was resourceful enough to organize her life

again, and from what I was told later, she was dealing in barter, buying and

exchanging and selling and doing, until she had put together enough money that we

were able to travel to Germany. But in Germany proper, what was going on was that

in most of these cities where there was -- where there were Jewish survivors or so-

called DP's, displaced persons, they would set them up in -- either in one street or a

section of a s -- a part of a street in -- to -- be to get a house there in one area, so that

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 18

they would be looked after. In the small town of Amberg, what they did was told --

ordered, rather, people who occupied big apartments to let one room or part of the

apartment, let refugees and these displaced people live in those apartments. That was

the deal we had in Amberg.

A: What else do you remember about the conditions at that time?

Q: In the German -- In the American occupied section of Germany, as I am trying to

explain, they were more organized and they had seen to it that life would be

conducted in an orderly fashion, whether it's the food distribution or medical care,

and eventually the social services and also schooling for children. In Amberg, we

were like seven children -- seven Jewish children and of -- not all of one age. I -- I

happened to have been in that place, I believe the oldest. So what they did was, they

organized classes for us, it was in effect one class, and one -- one classroom for all of

us, but it was helpful that we started to learn both religious and secular studies, which

later on I picked up in -- in more earnest, in Stuttgart, in a ga -- bigger town, where

they had probably 200 or 300 youngsters divided into classes.

Q: Was it difficult for you to -- to remain in Germany?

A: [had no trouble in -- on a -- in my personal experiences, I did not have problems,

except children, like everywhere, if you are different, you are going to be picked upon

and being Jewish was an easy target for -- for German children to try to scare you, to

pick on you, to beat you, whatever. But I was a tough kid and I -- I was not running

away, I was not hiding. So that helped me make friends and [indecipherable] as much USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 19 as that was, at that level, possible. I even belonged to a so-called gang of German kids.

Q: Did your mother and your sister and you talk about what had happened?

A: Between ourselves, no, not --

Q: To others?

A: There was nothing to explain, to -- to talk about.

Q: Did you speak to others about it?

A: Not really.

Q: Because you didn't want to, or because the situation wasn't -- so that you felt you want -- you felt --

A: As a youngster, you feel that your -- everything is known, everything -- what you know, others know, that it was nothing special. Later, as you grow up, you have your own kids and you still don't want to talk about it, because I guess that you are protective of your children.

Q: We'll talk about that a little bit later. First I'd -- I'd like to know, when you -- when did you meet your father, finally, again, and where did you go, or where did you stay then?

A: When my father got back to Germany, that was some time in 1946. I think we had been assigned already, an apartment, before he came and as much as it was possible, we're -- we're on a normal family, it's a normal family unit. It was -- For my parents,

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it was for a long time, very difficult to live with the situation that two of the children

perished, besides the-their own parents and brothers and sisters.

Q: Were you -- Do you remember that you had been a very close family before the

war, and could you get back to that, or had something changed? Did it take you

awhile to -- to grow together again?

A: From my perspective today, when I look back to conditions before the war, I must

say that the family living before the war was much more cohesive. Families and

extended families living much -- like much closer ties than nowadays. After the war,

and -- even though what -- what strikes me as outstanding is the fact that even though

we had gone through all this trauma, my parents were not selfish to the point of trying

to hold onto us, to stay with them, where they were making a living, where they were

rebuilding themselves, but had sent me on to the bigger city where there was my s --

me and my sister, to Stuttgart, where they were -- from Amberg to Stuttgart, where

there was a Jewish school. To me, it's very -- it's very remarkable that they -- that

they did that voluntarily, tha-that nobody had to tell them that.

Q: And you didn't mind to go, because you really wanted to get an education?

A: For me, an education was the most important thing. After having lost four years of

formal education, the first four years, because of the war and the camps.

Q: So your parents stayed in Amberg while you were going to Stuttgart. And what --

After recuperation, what kind of profession -- what -- how -- did they work again?

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 21

A: Before the war, and until we were deported, my parents, they dealt in curing of leather goods that later goes into manufacturing of shoes. After the war, they dealt in - - they eventually ended up manufacturing ladies sportswear, actu -- skirts and blouses.

Q: And in Stuttgart, how long did you stay there, and describe a little bit about your life in Stuttgart.

A: Amazing as it is, children can overcome and forget what happened to them, and somehow carry on life as usual, and besides studying, having fun, being wild and everything that normal children do. I was no different than my children or my grandchildren in the way we were spending our free time in playing games.

Q: What kind of school did you go to? Was it a Jewish school, or --

A: It was -- yes, that was the reason they sent me away, in order to go to a Jewish school. We learned in Jewish language, but we studied Hebrew and we studied also secular studies, not only religion, but secular studies, too.

Q: I would like to stop here. This is the end of side B, tape one.

End of Tape One, Side B ontectnstonancedjusetnoeg for taher biormatberabouttfisestecion USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 22 Beginning Tape Two, Side A

Q: This is a continuation of a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Abraham Malach. This is tape number two, side A. So, you were talking about your time at the school in Stuttgart, where you studied hard, but also did some wild things.

A: Yes. The school in Stuttgart did not last very long, because people were trying t-to go to America, to Israel and they were emigrating to all kind of places, to Canada, to South America, wherever they had relatives. Myself, I stayed in Stuttgart for as long as the Jewish school existed and that was til 1950. In 1950, I went back to Amberg, where my parents were and they had sent first my sister to Israel, to go on with her studies, and she is four and a half years older than me, and about half a year later, they also sent me there. So -- Which means October of 1950, I -- I went to Israel and I stayed with my sister in a one room apartment. No, it was one bedroom apartment, I should say. After my sister got married a year later, I stayed on in that apartment and I was on my own, even though I was only 15 and a half, I was responsible enough to go to school, study and do my homework. Nobody had to supervise or urge me on to do my homework. As I was -- had to work hard to catch up for the four lost years. I was in a class with so-called subruss. They -- They're children who were born and grew up in Israel, had not lost any schooling, and I had to catch up to their level.

Q: Did you know what to expect? Had you been prepared for what life in Israel would be like, before you went?

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A: No, there was nobody to prepare us or -- it -- it was not normal times. We did things out of necessity and -- and not prepared.

Q: But it was different. Can you explain a little bit what life was like, or was it not different for you?

A: It takes adjustment at any time, to -- moving to a different place, different customs, different dress. I guess that for me adjustment was -- I -- I think that it had to happen - - was not something that you go and you act like you're a spoiled brat, complain about it, but it just -- live with it and -- and make do.

Q: But what -- what -- I just would like to get an example. What -- What struck you as different or interesting?

A: Well, one -- a trivial thing would be that when I got to Israel from Germany, I would wear the knickerhosen, which was tied under the knee and this was a form of pants or shorts, whatever. It was a clothing that was not worn anyplace else, only in Germany. And when people were looking -- turning their heads to look after me, I was confused what is wrong with me. But adjustments had to be made in -- in many areas. I did not speak Hebrew and this was in Israel. They -- I was in a class of -- where 90 percent were Israeli born kids, so it was -- in the beginning it was hard. It was hard, kids have cliques, have their -- their friends they -- and to get into society, it takes time.

Q: Did you -- Did they know that you were a survivor? Did you talk about that?

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 24

A: No, youngsters, like youngsters everywhere, they have their own -- they are not concerned with the big issues of the world. When they do discuss it in an or -- in an organized way, I don't think that it was as personal or that th-they -- they -- I shouldn't generalize, but we did not dwelv -- delve into it, these things. But we were occupied and preoccupied with the issues at hand, how to spend our free time, whether th-the beach or whether playing cards or chess or go to a movie and not discuss experiences in the Holocaust.

Q: I didn't mean it to sound so abstract. I just wanted to get a feel for whether it was important for you to speak about it, or whether it was more important to go -- to go on now and make a new life.

A: I suppose it helped me that I was not treated as something special, that I was thrown into a -- excuse me -- into a society and tried to live as one of the -- of the rest of them. Otherwise, i-it would have destroyed me, so I am grateful for -- for that -- that I was not made a -- looked upon as a special case, as being different. The same is true also, when I went back to Germany and -- and studied at the [indecipherable] in Stuttgart, when my parents were still living, and meeting and studying with German youngsters, that my past was not discussed. We went on with life.

Q: When did you have your first girlfriend? Was that in Israel?

A: True girlfriend, well, there's puppy love, there's f -- what shall I call it, platonic love, and there's -- first true girlfriend, and --

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 25

Q: Well, let me ask you this again. Was it difficult for you to have relationship with -- with girls? This experience with the kapo, did that play in?

A: No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I went out -- well, I -- I had friends, but no -- no girlfriend at a young age, did not have. But, when I went out with -- in Stuttgart, as a student, I was already 18 and we ran after girls like boys do in any place. I cannot say that the experience I had in camp was something that -- that caused me to -- to think of -- even think about it.

Q: So, how long did you stay in Israel, and then you went back to Stuttgart, right?

How long did you stay, about?

A: I was in Israel actually three years, from 1950 to 1953. My parents were still living in Stuttgart and I rejoined them after high school. The one thing that makes me wonder nowadays is I didn't have nobody to guide me what I want to study, how to pick a profession and all that. My parents were no college graduates, they were prepared for life in the old fashioned way in Poland, living in small town where they - - my father was no illiterate person, neither my mother. But his background was in Jewish education and religious education. No -- No university, so I had to pick my own way in -- at the university, what to study and so forth.

Q: How did you do it? What did you study then?

A: I took an interest in science and in Stuttgart I was limited to what I could study, so after consider -- I was very practical, knowing that a physicist ends up being a teacher or professor and that is not always fulfilling, so I -- I was drawn into -- to more

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 26 practical things, like engineering and I ended up studying civil engineering. And, being young, you're idealist and you listen to these lectures, you take it to heart, when the introduction into civil engineering was that it's such a creative type of profession, so I believed in it very much.

Q: Did it turn out that way?

A: Later on I found out that any profession can be repetitive and that it depends on yo -- on situations, but depending on particular situations, but in general, people end up not being challenged and -- and gratified and feel the ex -- sense of gratification by doing things over and over again.

Q: Did your parents intend to immigrate to -- or to emigrate to Israel, or was just the idea to get you to school there and then what -- was the idea to stay in Germany, or what was discussed?

A: My parents lived in a type of situation like most of the -- at the time the survivors and so-called DP's, displaced persons, in that they believe the next year, as the prayer goes, next year in Jerusalem. They did not really settle down and look to buy a -- a house or truly make roots in Germany, because their idea was of going to live in Israel. On the other hand, reality was different. Reality was that they had, in the meantime, established themselves in -- in business, a small -- on a small scale, however they - that's where they were making a living and they were not prepared to go and to start from scratch at their age. So they stayed on in Germany til they were ready to retire.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 27

Q: In SS -- in -- in Stuttgart area, or did they -- it's --

A: They actually -- After the war, they started out in Amberg, in Bavaria, but

eventually they moved to Stuttgart and they -- they stayed in Stuttgart til they -- until

they came -- until they emigrated to Israel.

Q: Did yo -- Was there much interaction between you and -- and -- and Germans,

either students or general population, at that time?

A: My parents did, actually most, if not all of their business was German distributors

and German dealers in sportswear and they had no difficulty on a personal level there,

to -- to go on living in Germany. As much as inside I'm sure that the hurt and the pain

did not go away, and -- but when I'm looking back and I'm thinking of the students

that I associated with, I didn't look at them as being different than any other

nationality.

Q: You eventually came to America. How did -- How did that come about, or what

happened after Stuttgart?

A: Okay, while I was in Israel, when -- while I attended high school, I met my wife,

who was in -- two grades below me, so that when I did go to Germany for studying,

we corresponded and this went on for about four years and eventually, I came after

her, to -- to New York. But I wanted to backtrack. When we were talking about the

interacting with German students ... like I said before, what helped me -- I find that

what helped me was not to discuss my -- my background, my experiences. And I do

not believe that it was deliberate on their part, but I believe that it was a natural thing USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 28 that we were going about daily pursuits, whether it was business at hand, whether it was studying, or going out for fun, and we were not discussing history.

Q: But you didn't feel any direct anti-Semitism [indecipherable]

A: No, in -- as a young boy, at like I -- I tried to mention before, there were bullies and if they knew that I was Jewish, they would chase after me or whatever, but that was kid stuff. At the university, I was pointed out about this one professor who I was told was -- belonged to the Nazi party and that it took him a long time, that he was among those who were questioned after the war, what did you do in the Nazi party and so on. And that it took him f -- It took him so -- quite a time to explain himself, whatever, which, that process, they call it denazification in Germany, where they apparently tried to find those that were higher up in the Nazi hierarchy and whatever they were accused of. But, this particular professor, though he was known to have belonged, and maybe in school, propagated the Nazi propaganda, I -- I cannot say that he sa -- would single me out for punishment and grades, or whatever.

Q: So, but back to the -- to my question, when -- when and how did you get to America? Did you want to go to America, or were there certain circumstances that led you there?

A: No, in my case it was th-that my wife had immigrated with her parents. During the time that I was in Germany, they had immigrated from Israel to America. And after four years, we just wanted to be together again.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 29

Q: And then your -- your sister was in Israel, at that time married, your parents stayed

in Germany and you came over to America, to live where?

A: When I came to New York, I rented a room, but, as I said, my primary interest for

coming to America was to be -- to meet my ex-girlfriend, my wife. And it took us

something like one week and we were engaged and then, a couple months later we

were married.

Q: Tell us about her a little bit. Why -- Why her?

A: She was attractive, it was the -- for me, the first criterion why I was chasing after.

She's -- She is the opposite of myself, in as far as being outspoken and fun to be with,

whereas I'm shy and -- and reserved and she is just the opposite of me and we -- we --

and we are two opposites. The opposites attract and it seems to be true to this day.

Q: How was your -- How was your wedding? When did you get married and how was

your wedding? Just recall a little bit for us.

A: When we compare the wedding arrangements per se, to what today couples go

through, and so much detail, preparations and so on. For us, this was meant only a

ceremony and nothing more. A party and that's it. We did not go into -- it was taken

care of by the parents for us, anything was good enough.

Q: Good enough, then.

A: Oh yeah.

Q: So, but, just to kind of keep a little bit the time frame, when -- when did you come

to America and how did you establish your life here then? What -- What happened?

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 30

A: [had started the studies of engineering in Germany and I went on in New York. I we -- I went on to Columbia University, where I finished the engineer -- school of engineering, then -- civil engineering. And I worked in that profession for about 10 years. Eventually, I got involved in the same thing that I was doing with my parents.

There was one year that my father was very ill and I had to go back and enable him to go for check-ups and he was in and out of the hospital. So for one year, I was managing the business for him, helped my mother out a -- in the business. So when I came back here, I did end up going into the same thing, wanting to be independent. I had gotten my dreams realized and having finished my studies and having worked as an engineer, now I wanted to see what I can accomplish, being independent, so I -- I went into manufacturing.

Q: And what did you accomplish then, as an independent?

A: It's more -- In my case, did not end up in a big business because the circumstances here are the [indecipherable] business, it used to be glamorous and it's -- for very few people ends up being a big business. It's more and more complicated -- with time, it became more and more complicated, as far as imports. Today, it's only the big -- the biggest survive and almost everything is being imported. So, I did not build an empire.

Q: When you came to America, that was yet again, another different society, another language. You didn't speak English before you got here, right? Did you?

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 31

A: Well, that's -- not on a daily basis, but I did study English as a foreign language in

school. And in Israel, the Israeli high school's English is taught intensively and -- or

rather, I should say, as I tried to mention before, I studied -- I was a very serious

student, so that when we studied, whether it was English or math or whatever, I -- I

studied with -- intensively. So, when I got out of high school, I had a speaking

knowledge of English. When I arrived to New York, I -- I had a job the next day. I

had no trouble going to work, being offered first as a file clerk and then in a

laboratory.

Q: This is the end of tape two, side A.

End of Tape Two, Side A Beginning Tape Two, Side B

Q: This is a continuation of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview

with Abraham Malach. This is tape number two, side B. I forgot to ask you before

your names -- your -- your wife's name. I think we should -- we should mention that,

and then, after we've said that, let me ask you whether you have children and when

that happened.

A: My wife's name is Ruth, and as I mentioned before, she is a -- she was born in

Israel, raised in Israel and came to America at the age of 15. We married in 1957 and

we have a son and a daughter. Our daughter is going to be 41 years of age, her name

is Darlene Miriam, and she is currently pursuing her doctorate while working in the

public school system, a high schoo -- as a high school's teacher, and also teaching

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 32 weekends in the community college, Brooklyn Community College. Her specialty is in early childhood education and she is doing her doctorate in the evening. My son finished Rochester Institute of Technology, upstate New York, and he is a consultant in computer software and lives in Los Angeles and works for big companies. But, he is independent, he's working on big projects and these companies change their financial system of -- upgrade their system, he will customize it for them.

Q: Tell me a little bit about your -- meaning your personal, but also your wife's ideas about parenting. What was -- Did you agree? Did you have special ideas that were really important to you, that you wanted to do when you knew you would have a child?

A: I find that my wife was the disciplinarian, that I was unable. I wouldn't have been able to bring myself to punish my children and I find that on my -- myself and my daughter to -- to such a degree that it may be overcompensating, where we will be by -- at -- too protective of our children and that can mean -- not only in physically protective, but protective in every sense of the way. We would do anything to make their life more comfortable, even at great sacrifice to of -- of -- on our own part. I -- I be -- I do believe that this is typical of people like me, that went through traumatic childhood, to want to give their children only the best and to be protective of their children.

Q: What kind of -- What kind of values did you wanted to instill in your children?

Was there anything important to you that you wanted to pass on, or --

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 33

A: Education is the -- the key word here, and we did not exactly dictate to them what

direction to take in life, what profession to choose, but if asked, we would guide them,

try to influence them to -- to be practical, not only study for the sake of study, but also

to be practical in life. For instance, when my son became of the age of 13, which is

the Bar Mitzvah age with us, instead of worrying about a big party and nice trip, I

bought for him a computer, which was, at that time still in the infancy stage, the

personal computer business. And I'm proud of that -- that -- to have -- that is, guided

him into this field, and that today there is no -- no profession that will do well without

being involved with computers.

Q: Are you a religious man?

A: Lam not observant, but I also don't preach against religion. I'm -- I'm respectful of

people who are true believers and who honestly observe religion, but I cannot bring

myself to be a true believer, not after what I have experienced.

Q: What about your wife? Do you have -- Do you agree on this, or do you have

different opinions?

A: My wife is more respectful of what she was brought up with and traditional, is --

she is more traditional than I am, but she followed through on the fact that religion

does not make a person per se, bad. Religious upbringing does, in general, make

children more respectful of elders, of parents, and of other people -- other people's

feelings in general. But, we didn't carry it to the extreme of having, for instance, my

son having been for eight years in a -- the parochial school, that we then put him in a - USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 34 - still a private high school. But not a religious school, in order to be exposed and interact better with not just Jewish children, but to be studying with other children.

Q: How -- How do you identify yourself? The term survivor, for instance, is a term that, over the last 20 years has come to mean a lot in American life. Do you -- Is that a difficult one for you, or do you fully embrace that?

A: I -- When I'm asked to tell or to talk to young people, I can only emphasize one thing, that the youngsters that have missed opportunities in their early years, whether it was because they were not attentive in school, or whether their parents were not able to afford them a education -- a formal education, that life is not finished at age 20 or wherever. That you can always go back to school, and that education is the only means to improve yourself, both -- and as -- enrich your -- as a person and also enable you to reach higher professionally and financially improve your -- your living. So I -- I -- I emphasize the fact that it's never too late to pick off your piece -- pieces and start all over.

Q: Did you speak -- Did you speak to your children about your war experiences?

A: They may have seen -- they -- they probably did see the tape -- the audio tape that I did for the museum, but we have not actually sat down and talked about the experiences and -- and I'm not sure whether they don't ask me direct -- directly about this because they don't want to cause me pain, or whatever, that it -- they -- they may feel that it's painful f -- to -- for me to talk about it. I don't know the reason for it, but they actually did not ask me about it and I -- I think that it is normal and good that

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 35

way. As youngsters they don't -- they -- they wouldn't understand and don't know

any better. When they grow up and they go about their -- the business of life, they get

to read and to know as much as they need, without having to ask me in person. And I

-- I think that they did watch, though, the tape that I made.

Q: But you -- But you did decide at one point, to speak to school children. When --

When did you decide and why did you decide to -- to speak publicly, or in public --

more public situations?

A: | -- I -- I was -- I was asked to speak to the college students, the community college

in Queens. And it was a very good experience and that's when they -- they liked the

fact that I -- I told them that if you miss out a few years in school, that it is not too late

to pick it up later and go back to school.

Q: But they had not asked you because they knew that you were a survivor of the

Holocaust, you were supposed to give a speech? Or did they know that?

A: Well, tha -- it was part of the program of what they were reading about Holocaust,

yes.

Q: You said it was a good experience. What made it a good experience? Did you get

responses from -- from the students?

A: They -- They did stay on. It was supposed to be a regular class of something like

45 or 50 minutes, but when the bell rang, they stayed on and -- and just wanted to --

to ask more questions and it became a double session and some of them, they asked USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 36 me to -- if Il would join them for lunch, that they -- they wanted to hear some -- they had some more personal questions.

Q: When you -- When you look back on your life, can you say a little bit more about the long term impact that the war experience have had on you?

A: Well, number one, if it wasn't for the war, I would not have been -- ended up in America, but what the impact on me -- wh-what impact it had on me, I can only say that it requires a -- it required a great effort to overcome -- to -- not to suppress the memory, but to pick up the pieces and just get on with your life, to build your life wi - - dis -- and disregard and not ma -- let those experiences guide your life or be guided by -- by that, in judging people or influencing your -- your thinking and your life. I would rather try to read up on the biographies of people that were involved in the Third Reich, whether it was Albert Speer or whether it was Eichmann. I would read, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," by Herr Schuyler and so on, just to -- to understand what type of conditions or what motivation these people had to initiate, and put into, and execute these policies. But there is no explanation and there I found little of excuses in these people when -- Albert Speer, when he got out of prison and wrote his autobiography and tried to explain that in his education as a professional, and he was an archi -- it's an architect that he did not have classes in civics and -- and so on. An-And I -- I cannot accept that, because I myself educated in technical field.

That does not mean that you don't know right from wrong. The -- We're supposed to be the climax, and German culture was the highest form of culture that the world had

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 37 known at the time. And if you read Hagerint, you -- you -- you would think that it -- it's the culmination of western civilization, the German culture. And how deeply rooted it was in the people. You -- When you read about the man who was -- I forget his name -- in Leipzig, was converted as a young man and of course, under the Nazi regime was removed from his post as a professor of German literature. But when he wrote his diaries and how proud he was as a German, how deeply he believed in German culture, that in spite of all that humiliation that he was subjected to, he still believed in the German culture. So, yeah, I -- I do believe that the answer is in education and in communication, but the m -- the more important thing is that we live today in a different world. In those days, people barely had a radio, no television.

Today, it's instant co -- in the age of instant communication, where everything is instantly shown on television and things have changed so much that I don't believe that you can propagate this type of hatred and commit atrocities on that scale, without the world seeing and knowing it. So that -- that is a big change.

Q: Are there any particular events in America that have influenced you a lot? Political events, cultural movements. Was there anything, when you came to this country, that you recognized as either something you didn't want or that you wanted to emulate, or -- it's a very general question --

A: Yes, yes.

Q: -- but I just wanted to keep that open to see what your response was.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 38

A: No, my -- I -- I -- I think that the reason why America was as successful -- as successful as it is, is that it did absorb people of different cultures and we're forced to live together and make the best of it. So, it is influenced by many, many streams of ideology and so on. So, the multicultural living has created a society that can look back on history, but does not -- without looking at others as being inferior. The -- I do believe that Eur-Europe had come to that stage where the nationalism had taken over too -- too much of the essential element in their outlook on life. Whether it was the French that wanted to see everything in French, or in Germany that they wanted to be -- be a sush -- prove their superiority and so on. In America, you -- you don't have that propaganda of uniqueness as a nation, or as a ra -- as arace. And I see that as being the big success story.

Q: Did you serve in the army, by the way? I forgot to ask you that earlier.

A: In -- No, I did not.

Q: Was there still a draft going on? I mean, how -- how old were you when you came to America. It was -- You were 20 -- 18?

A: I was 22. I had to register with the draft, but they were not calling up everybody, and I believe because I was married, I was not called to serve.

Q: What are your hobbies? What do you like to do?

A: I can never get enough reading done. And what I want to try is get -- take a course in speed reading, maybe it -- it would help me get more reading done.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 39

Q: I'm jumping back and forth now, but I'm responding to -- to what you're -- trying to respond to what you're saying. So what do you read right now, for instance?

A: From biographies to philosophical topics, but I'm reserving my mor -- when I retire next year, or maybe sooner, to get more reading done -- more serious reading done. I'm following up on -- with newspapers and magazines so much that right now I'm not getting to read too many books, right now.

Q: Do you have, among your friends, do you have survivors as friends, too, or mostly survivors?

A: [have -- We do have one couple that they -- the woman was in Auschwitz and her husband lived -- he's also from Germany, but he lived in Israel during the war. And there's an -- another couple where the husband, he was -- he survived as an orphan in -- in, I believe in Russia. So, it is somehow, now that I'm talking about it, it does sound strange, we never exchanged much discussion or went into details of where we were during the war, how we survived the war. We never went into these details.

Q: Do you think that, in spite of the differing experiences among survivors, that there are certain commonalities that they might share?

A: Probably in the outlook on life and on -- in their behavior, I -- I'm sure of that. One of the things that I mentioned is in the way they -- th-they are so protective of their children, and that they will be very careful to -- to see that their children study in college, get an education.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 40

Q: Do you think that people hearing your stories can really understand what -- what you are -- what you are telling them of it? Do you think they are really listening, or are there also a lot of preconceptions entering into this? How do you -- How do you feel about that? It's kind of listening and telling situation.

A: I do think that most people, including myself, cannot conceive of a situation that I went through is possible in our day and age. So -- However, they -- there are a lot of people who -- who want to make sure that their children know about it, that it be -- talked about it, to make sure that this type of situation does not happen again. And that's why it is becoming a topic of discussion and being taught in schools as a -- a course of study, the -- the Holocaust.

Q: This is the end of tape two, side B.

End of Tape Two, Side B USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 41 Beginning Tape Three, Side A

Q: This is a continuation of a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Abraham Malach. This is tape number three, side A. I would like to follow up on what you have just said. Some people would say that, over the last 20 years, the Holocaust has become sort of a focal point of Jewish identity -- of American Jewish identity and they question that that is a very positive development. Has it become too much of -- of a central focus? Do you -- Whether it is to the detriment of other aspects of -- of Jewish culture?

A: I don't think it is to the detriment. In talking out about it, it is something -- I see it as a positive development when I -- what comes to my mind is the situation that was going on in Bosnia and at the time when Elie Wiesel was present -- in the presence of the president, spoke out, "Mr. President, do something about Bosnia." And the United States did not want to get involved militarily. Conveniently, also so because the Europeans were standing back and it was in their [indecipherable] and they should have been the ones who should have taken the position immediately, taken a stand and they were not doing it, and were watching how a beautiful country like Bosnia - Herzegovina, the -- Sarajevo -- city of Sarajevo was being bombarded and shelled and atrocities being committed. So Elie Wiesel stepped out and asked the president, please, do something. So these type of pleas and -- can have only an effect, when the story has been publicized and made known. What is the most effective way? That's a different question. I do believe that a movie like Schindler's List, or the -- the play

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 42 Anna Frank, are very, very effective. And that it is important to tell the story, is -- to me, it is evident that when it c-came out that ak -- atrocities were being committed in Croatia -- in -- I'm -- I'm sorry, in Kosovo, of ethnic cleansing, and you had people say, "Well, it is not for Americans to get involved because over there this hatred has existed and will continue for -- it -- it wa -- it lasted for centuries and it will continue for centuries and there's nothing we can do, we should stay away." I think that is wrong, and I was happy to see that the United States took the lead in opposing the -- this ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.

Q: Should that happen every time there's an -- an ethnic war going on? There was Rwanda, there were other incidents, too. Do you feel strongly that that should happen every time?

A: Well, what form the intervention should take, I -- I'm -- I don't know, I'm no expert, but that -- there should be -- this should not be allowed, ethnic clean -- let's me put it this way, that it should not be allowed. To me that is clear and why America should be involved? Because America is the dominant country and without the American leadership, it seems that nothing is really happening. But they should be more forceful in getting the other countries involved, like they managed to do in Kosovo, that they got the French, incidentally the Germans too, to tell them, "Listen, it's time that you take your responsibilities also." And they -- they have 19 NATO countries involved in that endeavor.

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 43

Q: Which events in -- in Israel had a special effect on you, for whatever reasons, over the years?

A: Well, number one, going to Israel as a youngster and not being taunted as a Jew, it had the -- the greatest effect on me and I don't know whether it is for every youngster the best period in his life, the teenage years, but for me it certainly was the greatest time in my life. The spirit of a country and building a democracy, a -- a new country, being -- seeing -- seeing this develop from nothing, it was a great experience. And I think that up to today, the -- the fact that you have -- with all the hardships that went with building a country in hostile environment, that they remained a true democracy and that hopefully they will finish the job of making peace with the neighbors, like it was started by Rabin.

Q: Yeah, I was just about to ask you, how do you feel about politics right now in Israel?

A: What I find gratifying is that when I was living there in the 50's, in Israel, early 50's, the hatred was so strong, and the distrust and it's so deep rooted, and propaganda was -- that was being fed by the dictatorships on the Arab side, more so than on our side, that I did not think that when they started to negotiate with the Palestinians, I did not believe that peace would be possible so f -- in our generation. I thought that it would take much more then one generation to build a new understanding -- an understanding and cooperation. However, I proved -- I was proven wrong and that, due to the fact that you had great leaders, leadership is

USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 44 everything in politics and that was both on the Egyptian side with Sadat, on the Israeli side, people like Paris and Rabin and hopefully that this trend can continue.

Q: Who in this country do you admire?

A: I must say that in spite of all the failings of the president, President Clinton, I think, in -- in as far as the leadership quality, I think that he is -- has proven -- to me, has been a great president. Whether his personal behavior should permit him to be th - - to continue to be the president, that's a different discussion, but I think that as a political -- as a leader of the free world, I think that he has proven himself very effective.

Q: Do you follow at all controversies, or the work in general of the Holocaust museum? Because I wanted to ask you how you felt about the incidents when the then director of the museum refused to give Yasir Arafat a formal welcome VIP treatment, when he came to the United States recently?

A: As a officer of a public foundation, I don't know if he had the right to make these decisions, whether single-handedly can -- should make such decisions. On the other hand, I know that in New York city, Mayor Guiliani did similar things, that he would not invite him to functions in city hall, or whatever. Of course, Guiliani must have done it for his political reasons, but in the case of the museum, I think it should have been coordinated with the -- and advice asked from the Israeli government and from the Board of Directors and not make it into a scandal.

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Q: Is there an area that we haven't addressed yet, that you would like to talk about a little bit more? Any area?

A: At the moment, I cannot think of anyth -- a specific thing to add.

Q: A little bit more about your family life, maybe?

A: I find that when the children were little, that we had tried to be always -- find more time to spend with them, and whether it was taking trips, or taking them to games, that it was very, very helpful, both to us and to them, that we can look back, that we have so much in common, that even though my son is living in California, we feel as if he was around the corner. We are in constant communication, at least once a week, do get to see him often and I think it helped in our relations with our children in general, to -- to spend as much time with them as possible. Of course, my daughter and her three children live close by, and we see them on the average, three times a week. And I think it's a very, very gratifying experience.

Q: How many grandchildren do you have?

A: My daughter has three children. A pair of twin boys and the oldest son is 12, the twins are eight. My son, who is now 32 years old, is finally getting married next year, so we are hoping to have -- to see more grandchildren there.

Q: Do you -- Is your sister still alive?

A: My sister is -- lives in Israel, and she also has a son and a daughter. Her daughter is also maybe two years older, and my sister is four and a half years older than myself.

So her daughter is probably 44 years old. She has two children.

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Q: Do you see each other on a regular basis, or -- are you in touch still?

A: We do -- We do sometimes plan vacations together, but in the last few years -- excuse me -- in the last few years her husband has been -- his health -- ill health, so we did not take too many vacations together. We are in touch by phone.

Q: When you look back on the last 50 years of your life, or 55 years, what would you may have -- what would you have made different? Do you think you have made mistakes, or did everything turn out the way you -- do you think that's -- that's the best I could do.

A: I cannot say that I have big regrets about anything. I don't -- I -- it's hard for me to say if I would do everything the same way as I did, but I have no regrets about choices that I have made.

Q: On that note, I would like to conclude the interview with Abraham Malach, unless you have a final thing that you would like to say?

A: I can't think of anything special right now.

Q: Then we have said what there was to say. Thank you very much for giving the interview.

A: Thank you.

End of Tape Three, Side A Conclusion of Interview USHMM Archives RG-50.549.02*0042 47