Document

ANN GREEN July 25, 2006 Beginning Tape One, Side A

Q: This is a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Ann Green, conducted by Amy Rubin on July 25", 2006. This interview is made possible by a grant from Carol and Maurice Burke. This is tape number one, side A. Mrs. Green, would you please begin by telling me your full name and when and where you were born.

A: My name is Ann Green, I was born in Austria at -- and I was born on August the 28", 1925.

Q: And where exactly were you born in Austria?

A: Ina -- in a town outside [indecipherable] maybe 50 miles outside, maybe more, it's Neunkirchen. I -- want me to spell it?

Q: That's okay. What -- what was your name at birth?

A: Preis, P-r-e-i-s.

Q: And did you have any other names that you used during the war time?

A: No, no.

Q: So, can you tell me a little bit about your parents, their names, and any siblings?

A: My mother's name was Josephine, my father's name was Berthold, my brother's name was Ignatz. He never used the name, he hated it.

Q: What name did he use?

A: I -- he was called Bushy, that's an Austrian expression, little boy. And so he never really used it, only on pape-- on documents and so on.

Q: And tell me a little bit about the personalities of the members of your family, your father, your mother, your brother. Tell -- give me a little picture of each one of them.

A: They were -- how shall I say it? In my -- in -- as -- as a child looking at them, just normal people, if [indecipherable]. I really ca -- i-it's very hard to say, you know, what -- because you're looking at it as a child. They're just ple -- nice, normal people.

Q: You know, a lot of siblings have naturally, you know, some kind of sibling rivalry. Did you get along very well with your brother?

A: [indecipherable] I was, you know, sibling rivalry, I would y -- tease him. If I really wanted to hurt him I called him by his name. But that was about the extent of it, I mean, we didn't -- one day he -- I locked him up in the room, an -- and he said he's going to jump out the window and I said go ahead. But that's not -- so anyway, we -- you know, there was really not -- he was four years younger than I am, and -- so there was not this much rivalry.

Q: And tell me more about your parents. Did they run a strict household, and also what kind of work did your father do and your mother, did she work?

A: No, my mother didn't, but my father was in the scrap metal and then he wheeled and dealed. I ca -- really, it's very interesting that I cannot really remember, because I was very young. Was a normal child, not interested in anything but myself. And -- so it's very difficult to say. I can't really remember, you know, that it wa -- that something really would have impressed me, or interest me. All I was interested is having -- you know, playing and that's it. So --

Q: Were your parents strict at home?

A: Yes, and no. You know, European parents, I mean, they would be going to jail here. But no, they -- it -- just a normal family life. My father -- when we lived in outs -- in Neunkirchen, my

father commuted from Vienna for awhile, and then we moved. So -- but it was a nor -- it was a normal, average life, we can compare the middle class life to America.

Q: Tell me a little bit about whatever memories you have of this first town that you were living in, where you were born.

A: I remember playing with -- having a friend, which was very interesting. Then, of course, I had no clue whose -- all her brothers were in the par -- in the party, the Nazi party, had pictures up of Hitler and all. And here she was my playmate. I mean, we were four years old -- four or five years old, and I remember that, but otherwise -- and we were good friends, we'd -- she would come to my house, I'd go to her house. And that -- you know, the parents never said you can't play with her or anything. And -- but I do remember the pictures because you know, it was something different with the -- the emblem, the colors and whatever else.

Q: Was it something that made you uncomfortable in some way?

A: I couldn't really -- I mean, I noticed it, because you know, we knew what was going on in Germany, but Germany couldn't be compared to Austria because in Germany the Jews, though they were persecuted, they were not to that extent. They still had a more or less, if you can call it normal life, existence. And that's all they really [indecipherable] five si -- four or five years per - - no, five -- five, six maybe, and that's it. So --

Q: So this is when you moved to Vienna?

A: Vienna, mm-hm.

Q: So tell me about the transition, moving to Vienna.

A: What do you mean living together?

Q: Oh, the transition, moving from this smaller town to -- to going to the big city of Vienna.

A: No, it wasn't that small a tow -- it was a city, but really not. Adjusted. You know, moved, adjusted. I was -- my parents -- I was taken care of. And what are children interested in, right?

You make new friends. And we had family living in Vienna, broth -- my father's brother was living in Vienna, and I had a cousin. So, you know, the transition wasn't that great. You are in the same country, you are speaking the same language, so it doesn't -- didn't make this -- there wasn't this great an impact.

Q: Did you like living in Vienna?

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: What are some of your fonder memories?

A: Just -- I really -- a nor -- a very normal life until 1938, and I remember that. I was -- I happened to go to the movies, and this was Jeanette MacDonald, which is long before your time, and was May time and here the troops were marching in and they were -- the people were there with open ha -- hands and hearts to wo -- welcome them. And here I just loo -- you know, to me it was just a movement of troops. We knew there was something going on, but nobody really had a concept what will be ahead. Because everything was looked at from Germany, and the people who came from Germany. We happened to know -- my father happened to know somebody who came from Berlin, and the things -- the stories he told weren't that hair raising, so we really -- it really became bad after the anschluss, so --

Q: And that's the day when you were at the movies, that you're remembering?

A: Mm-hm, yeah. It was -- it was in May, I don't remember the date, but I know it was in May of 38.

Q: And what did you associate with, you know, what came right after, or what did you think was starting to happen right after this? Did you know much?

A: Nobody -- nobody knew. Nobody had a concept. I mean, nobody could unders -- you know, nobody knew that na -- I mean, they were -- the Austrians welcomed the invasion, what they call invasion, with open arms, and there was -- Is -- I presume now, looking back, there was a lot of poverty, there was a lot -- there wi -- you know, people that didn't have -- there was no work, so -- and the Austrians isn't, by nature, are not very pri -- used to be -- not a very productive person.

As long as they had three meals, or four meals, and didn't have to extend themselves, that was their outlook in life. And so here they felt, you know, they were -- they were going to get something, because what did Hitler do? He took it from Peter, gave it to Paul. I mean, he took the businesses away, and so consequently the people suddenly became business owners, and started ye -- regardless if it had the ability or not, they started the middle class life, so to say, and were very happy with it.

Q: So if we could go back a little bit to -- prior to the anschluss --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- just to get a little bit better picture of your home life.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: If you could give me just -- sort of set the scene and give like a physical description of your home as you recall it, in Vienna.

A: Well, we had a -- we had -- we had a -- two, three bedroom apartment in -- on the third district, and it's very hard to describe. It was just a normal apartment and a normal -- what you would call an American -- equal in to an American life. Not -- not -- I -- I really don't know how to describe it to you. Just a very normal life, which abruptly ended, and we got notice that we were going to be relocated, that's what the -- would be call -- and we knew when, and we were lo -- no, we were relocated in -- we -- into an apartment and we stayed there with another family

and their daughter. It was really a storefront, an apart -- and a -- and a room, and a kitchen. And my mother, father, my brother and I lived in the storefront, and this other couple, who were very elderly and their daughter lived in the back. And this is how we started our new life, so to say, until we got notice that we're going to be relocated, and at that point we all left. And my father happened to have a friend who was not Jewish, and who was an illegal member of the party, and he send him a postcard, and he said, if you need me, call me, I'm there. And my father called him. He -- he -- he became the director of the sanitarium.

Q: Do you know his name?

A: Yeah, his name was Kittel, K-i-t-t-e-l. And his wife was esn -- his wife's name was Mia, he -- his was Leo. And they -- I stayed with them. I was this -- I was the niece from the German speaking part of Czechoslovakia, from Barin. And I stayed with them for many, many months and my father and mother found a place, and for awhile my brother was with them, and then he moved with -- to Mariani and her husband. Mariani is a friend of ours, was a friend of my father's, and her husband. And they ca -- when they had to vacate their apartment, they were going to be relocated so to speak, they came to us and they stay -- they stayed in the kitchen, and every time the chimney sweep would come, they had to get up and come into the -- come into our room and stay with us, because he came in the back, or the front, whatever you want to call it. And my br -- as I said, this is -- "m mixing the whole thing up.

Q: So may -- so maybe we can get the chronology here. So the first time you moved from your original home in Vienna --

A: Right.

Q: That was something you did not because of a -- a relocation order, or was it?

A: Right, I -- Ica -- you know what? I really don't remember how it came about that we had to vacate, and we sold our -- the furniture and everything was sold, and we moved into this storefront. I don't know how -- how the whole thing came to be, and --

Q: And what age are you about, at that time?

A: Iwas 13.

Q: And so what year is this?

A: [indecipherable] maybe I was -- I must have been older, about f-four -- maybe 14 -- 14 - 15.

Q: And was -- was this actually one of the first places where you were in hiding, or were you still living --

A: No, no, no, we ju -- we still lived a so-called normal existence. And we were there until "41. 1 think we moved there in deg40 -- in "40, and we were there in 41, and then we were being re -- suppose -- relocated, and that's when we went into hiding.

Q: What did you know, if anything, about the relocation order? Did you know anything?

A: It -- it was all underground cr -- grapevine, so to speak, you know, you -- you heard, you know, people found out, they told you that this and this street will be next, so you were alerted to it by -- by people who knew, and --

Q: So it sounds like even before you got the actual order --

A: No, no, no, no, you went before, you know, you had to go before. In fact, we had a superintendent who was very, very good to us, and Mariani and her husband stayed in her father's apartment, and he gave them a little room to stay there, hiding. And the woman, the daughter of the people who lived in the same apartment as we did, went there to sleep every night, she had -- she -- he let her sleep next to him in his bed. I mean, when you think about it now, the situations were such, as I'm recounting them I can't really believe it, because I'm

telling it to you and I say, if people will listen to this, what will they think? So -- and then of course, when we got notice to leave, you know, that we were being picked up, or rounded up, or s -- we -- we left. And at one point we stayed, we -- we moved right in next door with Mariani and her husband, and when they came for us we could hear them through the wall, because they - - they came in and, you know, they were looking for us. And my brother had parakeets, h -- in the storefront window. And those birds -- you know, they came in and they made a lot of noise, of course, and those parakeets started to screech, and whatever. We could hear all this. And of course they were they -- you know, they realized that we left, we left everything but what we really needed, and went. And that was it. And wi --

Q: But you were just next door, and -- and somebody could have found you very easily?

A: Oh yeah, I mean they -- if they had no clue that we -- they would have never, ever thought that we would be -- there would be anybody next door. So -- it was an adjacent apartment, so -- and then of course we had to leave because people in the building wouldn't -- knew us, and people in the neighborhood knew us, so we really had to vacate and find another place to stay.

And then we just started traveling from place to place, whoever would take us, we would stay with, you know, whatever length of time we could. Because you had to be very careful, because if you stayed -- the law over there wa -- was or is that when you are -- I think it was a week, you had to go to police, and report that you are living there. So if anybody would have seen us, or -- or -- you know, for any length of time, that will be a tip off [indecipherable]

Q: So, if I have this correctly, that's really when you first went into hiding --

A: Hiding, mm-hm.

Q: -- and this is 1941, we think, and this is when you moved next door to the storefront --

A: Right.

Q: -- that's really the --

A: I mean, this is the -- we had no -- we had no -- we didn't know where we are going to be, and so this was the only place we could be for the -- for the day or two, or I -- I can't remember how long we stayed there. It wasn't long because it was one of those very small rooms, and so we really didn't know how long we're going to be there, or wa -- we were there, we just -- my father found a place for me, and my brother then went with Mariani. And I can't remem -- you know, they just -- he -- she took him and I went to this friend of my father's and I stayed there. I stayed there for many, many months, and then I changed to other places, and eventually ended up with Mariani when they -- when -- because every so often I would leave, and then a couple months later come back to the same place. And that was really a -- you know, it was -- i -- you were never any length of time, so to speak. We had one very -- was a very weird thing, I don't know how, when and where, I don't remember that any more, but there was an SR man who took us in.

In fact, he took Mariani, her husband, me, my brother, and we stayed there. And he had -- he had a party, and the woman who was living -- the -- the daughter of the people who were living there, went and she was -- she served -- she served them. And her name was Whittler, and she -- you know, she would walk in and she would say, heil Whittler. You know, she would name her -- you -- she would say her name. Nobody could understand. And here she was, she was -- wore a little -- she was a huge person, and she was a little outfit -- you know, one of those serving things, a little [indecipherable]. I mean, those are the -- the funny -- the funny things, but we stayed there for a little while and his wife, for some reason -- she was British, and she resented it, and we had to move, and Mariani, my brother, and her husband moved and I stayed. I was the nursemaid.

Q: But this is the man who was part of the SA?

A: Yeah [indecipherable]

Q: And how is it that he was willing to take you in?

A: Yeah, he used to be -- when I stayed with this friend of my father and mother, he used to come and visit me, which was very welcome, because he would come in full uniform, you know, and he would walk -- come in -- he always came in through the back, through the garden, he would -- you know, so everybody could see him. And they lived in a private house, and that was very welcome, you know, they -- they wanted him to come to see, you know, so --

Q: What was his name?

A: Spiegel. It was a really, when you sp -- a really -- you would think it's a Jewish name, but he wasn't. Maybe he was and we didn't know.

Q: But you felt safe with him?

A: Oh yeah. No, I mean, he was -- he -- as I said, he was very nice. And then his wife -- it was -- the place was so cold -- they didn't heat the upstairs, the water froze in the water picture. I would get undressed under the cover, and then in the morning I would take all my clothes, put them under the cover, warm them up and get dressed again. It was terribly cold there beca -- why?

Because they didn't heat their upstairs. And the -- and the interesting part was her father lived upstairs too.

Q: Now, I know we've kind of jumped ahead to a lot of the experiences in hiding. I wanted to just step back and -- and try to jog your memory a little, 1 know you were very young right after the anschluss. At that stage, how old are you?

A: I think 14. I wa -- the anschluss was 13, I was 13.

Q: So I know you're still pretty young.

A: I mean it was -- it was a [indecipherable] -- how long -- yeah.

Q: 1938.

A: 1938 I was 13.

Q: Right. So -- but I wanted to go back a little --

A: Okay.

Q: -- and just to make sure we have a full understanding. Tell me the role of religion in your family's life before the anschluss.

A: Well, we went to Sunday school, went to Hebrew school. At one point I could really read, and I could write. In Europe, if you were Jewish, they didn't let you forget it. So you were Conservative, because at that point there was no Reform. And that is it, you know, that's the extent of it.

Q: Did you have certain favorite holidays?

A: All of them, because we always got new clothes. That was a -- almost like a ritual. Not that we didn't have anything to wear before, but -- but the holidays we wer -- we always got new clothes. And it took me awhile here not to buy anything new for the holidays.

Q: And you have fond memories. Did you have in your home the Passover Seder and --

A: Yes, we had Seders which lasted forever. And I remember my grandmother being alive, and my brother was little -- he was little and she wouldn't let him be fed in -- in the house because it was Passover, Mother had to go to the neighbor to feed him. That ar -- it's -- it's so weird how you remember things. And so, remember changing the dishes and cleaning up and whatever. And -- which when -- you know, was -- is a pleasant memory, which the children really today don't have, only if you're really Conservative, or Orthodox.

Q: And did you -- did you speak Yiddish at home, did you learn other languages?

A: No, no, no. We were what they would call assimilated Jews, you know [indecipherable] that - - that probably, I mean I don't know it was a problem or not. But European Jews as a -- as a tule, were assimilated. He -- it -- it's only the population which made you understand that you are Jewish.

Q: And --

A: But they do the same thing here.

Q: How was it for you as a child, this idea that you knew you were Jewish, especially in relation to non-Jews? You know, what -- what -- what happened? Any incidents you remember?

A: Not -- how shall I say? After the anschluss is -- there was a teacher, she was really anti- Semitic and she would -- I can't really reme -- I remember she made a remark about the Jews in class, that I remember. But I ca -- I wouldn't be able to remem -- remi -- remember what it was.

And no, anti-Semitism in -- in Europe was -- how shall I say? Like here. It was there, you knew it. If you really would ha -- if you wanted to be killed, you would tell them that Jesus is a Jew. I mean, that was the worst thing you could have ever done, and nobody would ever do that, okay?

But you were always aware that you were Jewish, but for some reason, tha -- my attitude and my family's attitude was, they're ignorant people, and I'm abo -- we are above it. And that's how you survived. I mean, it wasn't as -- it -- anti-Semitism in Europe I think was more -- more open than here. But whenever the church becomes powerful, then -- then it does not lead to good.

Q: What about one on one friendships? Did you have mostly Jewish friends, also non-Jewish friends?

A: Yeah, yeah, we had non-Jewish friends, I had non-Jewish friends. My father most certainly had non-Jewish friends. And they would say, you'd -- you -- you are not like the -- like other Jews, you're a different Jew. I mean, that shows you their ignorance. And of course we did not |

-- we didn't look Jewish. My mother had red hair, blue eyes, I had blue eyes. So, you know, we weren't -- we weren't looked upon as -- as the -- the typical portrait Jew. But most -- I mean, most European Jews didn't look what they were supposed to look, or what they wanted them to look. So that's really it.

Q: What about school? Were you in public school, and what kind of memories --

A: Oh, yeah.

Q: -- do you have fond memories of school?

A: Ido -- I di -- I think the whole thing is overshadowed by the -- by the rest of the -- my life.

So, you know, I went to school. I know that I would ep -- bring matzo to school. And I would go to school on Saturday and not write, okay. But otherwise, school was school, okay.

Q: Did you go to synagogue every week with your family?

A: No, no. Holidays, just like -- you know. Loved to go to si -- I loved to go because it was Conservative and you had to be upstairs. And for the holidays, as a kid, you could [indecipherable] downstairs and of course when there was [indecipherable] you were outside, and you went out to play. And you know, it was really -- it is -- was the same type of life as a mi -- as a middle class family you lived here. I mean, there was really not that much difference. So it's very, you know, it's very -- it -- it's a very long time. So you really don't remember, or maybe you choose not to, I don't know.

Q: What do you remember about any changes at school after the anschluss?

A: Way -- there was no school.

Q: When -- when did that happen?

A: I think in -- well, there was no school from "41 on, because we went in -- you know, there was no school from 1941 on. So I basically had very little education. As I told my son once, I went to the university of life. So that's that.

Q: And did you miss school, or you had so many other concerns by this time?

A: You know, there was so -- there was so many other things going that going to school never really -- I don't think it ent -- I can't say it never, but I don't think it ever entered my mind, because the -- you know, to survive was the most important thing.

Q: Now you, at this age clearly understood that -- that to survive, that -- that you are ina particularly challenging position as -- as a Jewish child to survive.

A: Right. Yeah, no the -- that you realized, I mean, you know, that you real -- you realized it and I didn't because at -- we were, you know, at that time we were still able to move around the city, though we wore the emblem.

Q: When did you st -- End of Tape One, Side A Beginning Tape One, Side B

Q: This is a continuation of a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Ann Green. This is tape number one, side B. So we were doing a little bit of backtracking and -- and talking about after the anschluss, if -- if -- we were at the end of the other side of the tape, if you could just tell me again when approximately you think you started wearing the Jewish star, and also what other things started happening that seemed very different?

A: Well, my mother was pulled out to go clean the streets, scrub the streets, I was with her. My father had to go shovel snow, and at random th -- I think we started to wear the star in "39, and of course when we were hiding we had to take it off. And we -- you know, you mov -- at that time

you were still able to move around with your star, you know, able to cre -- come and go. Once you took it off you just had to be careful not to meet anybody who knew you, and maybe would alert them that you're still around.

Q: Did you run into people you knew a lot anyway in Vienna? And how did people respond to you wearing the star, do you remember?

A: No, no, because we moved out of the district, and it was real sheer chance that you don't meet somebody. You had to be very careful, and you had to be very alert, and it was a -- a very, very difficult, very -- very hard to relate, because basically, living here -- I mean being an American, or in any country, if you haven't experienced it, it's really not something one can understand. As L always say, if I say my shoe hurts, until yours hurts, you don't know. You can't really -- you know, you say, oh yes. But it's very, very difficult because it was just a -- a -- something you can't comprehend. And you just do the best you can.

Q: Do you think as a teenager you actually started f -- you know, feeling real fear? What -- what do you think you felt back then?

A: Well, fear is -- was the thing which was always with you, or maybe caution. I don't know if you understand fear. Fear is only when you are exposed to it, you know, when you face it. But being -- you were always conscious and you always knew and you -- of course you were afraid that you are being found out. So you don't -- I don't know. You don't live with f -- I don't think you live with fear, you live with the -- with the thought of hoping that it will -- it will be over soon.

Q: Now during this time, first of all we see the -- I mean, what are the things that you're seeing on the streets? Are you seeing Jewish stores, you know, things happening to stores and synagogues, and what do you remember about those sorts of incidents?

A: Well, the stores were da -- you know, defaced, and they wrote Jew on it, and the stores were being taken over by people tha -- you know, the party gave the stores to -- to everybody whom they thought was worthwhile being in the party, or whatever. And it -- it was just something you can't -- y-you can't really retell because that's [indecipherable] store things happen, and you took them -- that's the way it was, okay you -- as long as you were -- the drive to survive was to be invisible. And th-that's all you really could do to survive, especially when you were hiding. I mean, if you walked around with the star, if somebody didn't like your face, they could do anything to you, whatever they wanted to, you were only a Jew. So you were expandable.

Q: What do you remember about Kristallnacht?

A: Just hearing about it, because you weren't present. But I remember as the story goes, my mother came from Grodz, which is [indecipherable]. And they took the rabbi there, and they had him -- they held him over the -- the river which goes through town, with a [indecipherable] you know, o-on the bridge, they held him there, just to scare him, they didn't throw him over. I mean, you ni -- you're not -- you -- you're seeing something, you're -- you're hearing something which is really not -- which one can't comprehend, because they weren't human. It's like today, we haven't learned. We really haven't learned. So --

Q: And do you think as a teenager you comprehended what was happening at the time?

A: Not really, no. Because I -- when I was a teenager, sometimes I did things you wouldn't believe.

Q: Like what?

A: Like what? I had -- I had a boyfriend who was -- who did not need to wear the star. I didn't wear it, I was already in hiding. We'd go to the city, we'd go like teenagers here, okay? At that point I was 18 -- 17 -- 18. We'd go to a -- we'd go to a restaurant, we go -- you know. One day I

went to buy a birthday present for my mother, and I left in the morning and I came back in the late afternoon. And I remember like today, at that time they had umbrellas, and they had a cu -- they were regular umbrellas like the little ones now, they had a [indecipherable] and a -- was a lea -- it was all of leather. When I came in my father took it and ch-chased me. Because, I mean, think. There was no phone, there was no way, but you know, you're a teenager. What -- what is - - what is the problem, you know? You're having a good time.

Q: And did you feel like you were a little bit invincible as -- you know, as some teenagers feel?

A: I think youth is. I -- I always said when I had children, I hope -- I have to remember what I did when I was a child or a teenager, and that will help me survive. I'm a survivor by nature.

Q: Well, you were a little bit of an adventurer it sounds like.

A: Well, I was a teenager. I was not -- I don't think I was any different than teenagers today. But -- and you -- you don't think what the consequences. I mean, if they would have caught me, they would have caught my parents. I mean, a whole family, and an extended family would have gone. Never gave it a thought.

Q: And what were the conversations like at home if your father was upset for instance that one day? What -- what were the kind of conversations you were having at that time?

A: Like what?

Q: You know, were you talking about strategies or plans for what you would do next, and what -- what was -- did you talk about the war?

A: [indecipherable] you -- you lived day by day. You -- you couldn't plan, because you don't -- you didn't know what is going to happen. At one point, when I stayed with Mariani, I had to leave during the day so I got a place to stay at during the day, I became the maid. And her hus -- and they were very nice people, but her husband apparently wasn't too bright. One day he called

and he said, this is the gover -- some government calling, and they know that he is -- he's hiding somebody and they're going to come over and get me. Well, I cleared out of there so fast I must have -- I must have run I don't know how many miles, just -- and that was in the inner city, and I -- we lived in the outskirts. And I never gi -- went back there. He thought it was a great joke, okay?

Q: He was just kidding?

A: Yeah, he was kidding. You know, he was -- he wanted to know if it -- and at th -- and th -- you couldn't walk a -- you had to be very careful. I couldn't use the vacuum cleaner because everybody knew they went to work in the morning, so there was nobody supposed to be in their house. So -- I mean, i -- totally stupid. You know, not -- thoughtless, and that's it.

Q: I'm just going to take a break.

A: Go ahead.

Q: Tell me what happened to your father's business.

A: It just dissipated, it dissipated, you know, and that was it. That I understand. So -- and then he -- my father knew a lot of -- lot of people and he would a -- he was able to -- you know, there was a lot of selling and buying, and -- and he knew a lot of -- he had a lot of non-Jewish friends, and that's what he did. You know, as mu -- as -- as well as he could. And that's how we survived, I suppose, to a certain degree.

Q: Did anything happen to the synagogue where your family went?

A: Yeah, they burned it down. They burned it down.

Q: Do you remember the name of it?

A: No, no, no. The only temple which stayed in is -- was not destroyed, I think, was the -- I can't remember the name now, it just escaped me. The main synagogue in Vienna, in the first district, you know? I think -- no, it wasn't central, central is here.

Q: So what do you remember about the actual beginning of the war in 1939? Were you hearing much in the way of news?

A: Yeah, we would hear, and of course we also listened to the voice of America. And you know, the grapevine, it -- it -- and the circles my father traveled in, there was always news, but you know, you really -- it -- everything went so fast, and everything was so new, that people really did not -- I mean, did not comprehend. I mean, we had people aba -- when we still lived in the storefront, people would come to our house, they put coffee, for after dinner co -- after dinner -- the main meal in Europe was lunch. And they would come and have coffee and debate and talk and th -- you know, for naught. And, you know, so we are -- it's -- it's something really you -- you -- you rethink, and you re -- even today when I think, or when I'm talking to Mariani, the interesting part about it is that we were able to lead a normal life, to the norm of norm. But -- so you can't real -- you know, when I look back, it's -- you ju -- it just became -- you -- this is what you were confronted with, and that's what you had to make the best of it.

Q: You sort of adjusted your concept of what was normal, it seems.

A: Yeah, yeah, you tr -- you know, you had to, because otherwise you couldn't survive. You cou -- you know, you would -- you would just waste your -- your energy and strength, which I suppose you subconsciously realized that you shouldn't do. Oh, I'm so far away from you, I'm sorry.

Q: That's okay. All right, so I wanted to know what you were hearing about people being deported at this time. What -- what sort of --

A: We --

Q: -- information did you have, if any?

A: We knew that there was Theresienstadt, and -- but we really didn't know what it -- what it was. My parents were deported. My parents were caught. How, when and where, I don't know, but this friend I had who was Romanian, he did not have to wear a star, so he had more entry into places, and he found out that they were deported. He was supposed to meet my father, and apparently didn't, because they caught them, and they went to Theresienstadt, and at one point you could send food to Theresienstadt. If they got it, we never knew. But we could go to different -- different districts, and mail whatever we could spare or get together, and mail it to them. And then, of course, they stopped that. So I don't know if they ever received it or not.

Q: When you were still with your parents, and things were changing though, of course, after the anschluss, did you -- I know you've talked about having an optimistic outlook --

A: Right.

Q: -- and hoping that things would change for the better soon.

A: Yeah, but my father -- my father felt this not going to -- this is not going to last, I mean, people would -- they -- because he had so many non-Jewish friends, he -- he never really understood either that it could last this long, or anybody could even contemplate anything like that. So --

Q: Do you think you picked up your optimistic attitude from your parents?

A: Probably. Probably. I mean, my father felt, you know, why emigrate. And probably, when I think about it now, he was in his early 50's, he had two young children, and a wife, and I -- probably was afraid, which is very possible. And as I said, really not understanding the -- the power. So, he -- we were going to -- I think it was Nicorag -- one of those South American

countries, and -- but it never materialized. It was always on the edge, you know, we were going to go in two weeks, okay? And then it dissipated. So we never really -- as I said, he -- it was not - - he -- he just didn't have his heart to go.

Q: What about your mother? How did she react?

A: You know, European wives are more -- we are going back 60 years, 70 years, so it's, you know, whatever he felt. And I s -- I suppose she wasn't as keen to -- to relocate either. You know, you heard -- and then, of course, it stopped, you know. America closed down, and -- I mean, th -- a lot of my -- my brother -- my father's brother went to Poland, okay, the one in Hungary, who lived in Hungary, they lived under false papers. They had Christian papers, and they came here, they were brought here by a priest. So, you know, not everybody -- the majority was bad, but there were some very good people in between. So, you know, so people sa - peoples the -- the people survived, only could survive in account of people who helped them.

Q: And I guess that would be in your case, people who were willing to hide you.

A: Yeah, you know, and they -- I mean, they -- they put their -- they -- they didn't all do it for love. A lot of it was money, okay, but they really put themselves in danger at that -- if you were found, you know, if your -- if they found you, or if somebody denounced you, so it's -- it was a very -- it was very, very interesting. Like, if somebody today would come to you and say, can you hide me? So, you -- you know, it's -- those people really put their own life at stake. So -- right?

Q: So just to ge -- continue with where we were. I know we talked about a number of different things and now I want to come back to the time when you were in hiding. So if you could just sort of summarize. When you started going into hiding -- also at that particular moment, what if anything do you remember about conversation -- conversations with your parents, you know,

that you would see them frequently or try to, cause I know at this time you're separating from your parents.

A: Right. We went into hiding I think the end of "41, beginning of "42, and I would see my parents, I would come to see them, they would come to see me. Would bring food which they purchased on the black market. And we lived in different places, and we switched places, and really | -- I traveled a lot, I traveled into -- I was at many different places because I was young, and you know, people could not keep me for any length of time. Certain places I could go out, other places I could never leave. There was a place in the inner city, in the old city where I stayed, and I was not be -- I wasn't able to go out, and it was -- it was a big -- very, very big apartment with all very old antique furniture, and it was very scary to be there, especially when you were alone and they always said, if somebody ever comes in here, I'd be hiding behind one of those big dining room table legs. You -- you think of the dumbest things. And --

Q: Did you ever have any of those kind of close calls in any of the places where you were?

A: No. Yeah, one. I had one very [indecipherable] and with another ca -- in a Jewish house. But they were -- they did not have to wear a star at the time, and for whatever reason somebody came into their apartment, some official, and I was in the bathroom, and I -- in the bathtub, and I grabbed my robe, and I ran. I ran up the block, and I knew a doctor there, so I went there, and -- and that was it. I mean ga -- you know, you -- you go -- get into situations where you don't think, you just -- especially when you're -- you know, you're running. And you just take off and you don't think. I mean, here I was running, if somebody would say, look, what she's doing here?

Somebody could have picked up on it, and -- and that was it, it was -- the ma -- it's really -- the whole thing was more luck than anything else. Whatever was supposed to be, that's the way it was. But --

Q: Were you -- did it ever feel like an adventure? I mean now, looking back, I see that you can smile over some of these anecdotes. At the time was it more frightening and you always had some --

A: Well, yes -- no, it wa -- it was serious, it was not -- it was not a game. I mean, this much I understood. But at the -- at the point of danger, I w -- I wa -- suppose I was not old enough, or didn't comprehend that the f -- that fear drove you to move, drove you to run, and that's what I did.

Q: Now, can you estimate how many, perhaps -- approximately how many different hiding places you -- you had in Vienna?

A: At least 10 or 12. I -- you know, at least. Because certain places I stayed for awhile, other places it wasn't convenient to stay. And you know, people were frightened, and so I moved from place to place. And somebody -- you know, there was an underground communication, you know, somebody would say -- well, I know somebody who would -- you could stay with, because the people who did it knew somebody else, you know, their fre -- in their circle, so -- but it was very difficult. It was not easy. And sometimes when I went -- I think I was the one who moved the most. And -- being a girl, and being 17 - 18, so I was the -- really the one who moved the most. Sometimes I would stay with my parents. They were -- I mean, luckily enough, they were always together. And then somebody would find a place where I would go and that's it.

Q: Now, were the people who were hiding you always receiving some kind of money or compensation?

A: Yeah, they were -- yeah, most of them were -- were -- got -- got money, most of them -- my mother always brought food. And -- but money wa -- there were a few where it was money, but most of them did not. It was strictly doing it for the -- for the good of the people or whatever, or

their conscience, or they -- or you know, you can't -- you don't know. It was -- it was a tremendous undertaking for them.

Q: And were they -- the people hiding you, were they all non-Jewish?

A: Yeah, yeah, they were all non-Jewish.

Q: And how did you feel in their treatment toward you?

A: Always very, ver -- I mean, you were always taken into the family, or most of the time taken into the family. I -- 1 mean the longest I stayed [indecipherable] the longest [indecipherable] was I stayed with my father's friend, and I was -- I was just part of the family and that's it. But really, the chances they took were im -- um -- you know, they had -- they had family whom I never knew if they knew or if they didn't know. I mean, you had to be pretty dense not to, you know, but nobody ever said anything or did anything, you know, so -- I mean, eventually I had to leave, and then of course, I went th -- stayed with Mariani, and then we were caught.

Q: When did it begin when you stayed with Mariani and can you tell me -- first can you tell me her full name, and her husband's full name?

A: Her -- her name was Mariani -- Mariani Fierstein, okay, Brauer, and her husband's name was Otto Brauer. And I think it was -- I -- I was there for about a year, maybe less. That was a -- we stayed in th -- the place was a laundry and it wasn't the ha -- the house was a shack. It was a wooden shack, it had -- it had three bedrooms, and three -- one, two, three or four -- four so called bedrooms, okay, and a living room which was also a workplace where the ironing was done, and the kitchen. And it had no cellar or anything, it was undergr -- it was a wooden shack.

It was just totally incredible when you think abou -- I mean, I'm laughing now, but it -- to describe it is -- like a lean-to. And th-there was a hand laundry, you know, they had kettles there, and they boiled the laundry and they scrubbed the laundry, we did too. Just because we had

nothing else to do. And we learned to iron on a flat board instead of an ironing board. I became a cur -- I could iron men's shirts perfect. And we ironed with an iron with a hot st -- stone in there, and it had no back. And of course you did other people's laundry, so we had to be careful that stone shouldn't slip out from the thing. And then we were -- we lived there, and we all -- we -- the facility was an outhouse and there was another -- there was another man there, hi -- there was something -- he was mentally ill. And he lived in a little -- also in this lean-to. And his thing was, he was waiting -- he liked Mariani's bath water. He used to call it -- Mariani came there in the summertime, when they moved in it was summertime. And he -- we would have four foot of snow on the ground, and he would call her the summer lady. And we would give him the food which was left over, but he never ate that, he had it in cans, and he waited until it became moldy and then he ate it. | mean, the man was sick. Sometimes I wonder if he knew what was going on.

I don't know.

Q: How is -- he was living in -- next door, or --

A: He was living in another little lean-to, and no heat, next to the -- next to the outhouse. It's incredible, isn't it?

Q: Do you remember it being uncomfortable living there?

A: Well, I -- Mariani, her husband and I slept in one be -- in two beds. I slept across, and they slept -- I mean, we are laughing, if we wouldn't be laughing, we'd be crying. So --

Q: Now, were you very close friends already with Marianne before this?

A: Well, Mariani lived with -- with us. I mean, I b -- I didn't know Mariani until I was 13, when she -- when they c -- needed to go some places, and my father and the lady who lived in the other room apparently met Mariani, knew Mariani, I don't know. And they needed to vacate their apartment because they were going to be relocated, so to say. And they came -- they -- so they

brought them to us. And as I said, they stayed in the kitchen in a -- up in a -- in a bunk bed. And as I said before, when the chimney sweep came, the super came, and said, you have to get up because he's coming to sweep.

Q: And that's before you went to the laundry place?

A: Oh yeah, that was long before, yes. That was before we even moved.

Q: How did this arrangement get made to hide in this shack in -- behind the laundry or --

A: I don't know where -- somebody knew of her, and approached her, and -- hers -- hers was strictly money.

Q: What's her name?

A: I think her name was Pukas.

Q: And so she was the owner, or she ran the laundry?

A: She was -- she was the owner of the laundry and that was it.

Q: What do you remember of her personality, what type of person was she?

A: She was not too bright, but a nice person and we have another incident where she -- there are certain things she had to have, among them was a ti -- a goose for Christmas, and I think Mariani told you about that, that we went, we finally got the goose, and you shou -- it was a tapestry bag we put it in, and suddenly a door -- End of Tape One, Side B

Beginning Tape two, Side A

Q: This is a continuation of a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Ann Green. This is tape number two, side A. You were telling me about a story, an anecdote where you and Marianne were getting a goose, I believe, for Christmas. Can you tell me again the details of the story?

A: Well we picked up the goose, and it -- carried it in a -- a tapestry bag and apparently a dog picked up the scent and followed us until we got to the trolley. And got into the trolley, nobody noticed that the dog is following us. I got home, I had a navy coat on -- I wore, and I had a navy sweater, and when I undressed, I was navy. The color -- I must have perspired so from fear, that - - th-the colo -- the color came off.

Q: Is this the kind of thing you were actually able to laugh about in the moment?

A: Yeah. After -- after it was all over, we laughed about it. I mean, we did not -- you know, wa -- we -- for some reason we had either durability or the -- I -- I -- I really don't know what it wa -- the drive to survive that we could make light of it. We -- we didn't dwell on it. We want -- though we were victims, we weren't the victims in our mind. And you know, we had th -- we had no -- it wasn't in our power to -- to survive, to -- to -- so we -- we did the best we could, and not to let us -- not to sink to their level.

Q: Were there other humorous anecdotes during your time in hiding?

A: As I said, this man who was really mentally ill, used to love Mariani's bath water, and he brushed his teeth with it. Apparently he liked the soap she used or whatever, because at -- what we used as a -- to -- to bathe was one of those tin tubs from many, many years ago, even before my time. And he would pass by and he'd say, did she take her bath? Did she take her bath? You know, this was in summertime, we used to be outside and he'd say, did she take her bath? And

the minute she was -- she was ready to s -- throw the water out, here he was with his can wash -- waiting to wa -- to rinse his mouth. It was disgusting. I mean --

Q: And did you laugh at the time?

A: Yeah, we laugh, of course. I mean, that was our entertainment, if you know what I mean. We -- We -- We -- we created our own entertainment. So my br -- my brother used to raise rabbits for food, and he worked -- there was a shoemaker next door and he would work there, and they would give him oats, and -- like oatmeal, and he would feed it to the rabbits. And then he -- but he never -- he would never eat them, and he would take them to a neighbor and she would kill them and skinned them and whatever else. But he would ta -- his portion he would feed to the cat, and the woman was incensed that he used to do that. But that was it.

Q: Why did he raise them and then --

A: For foo -- he -- well he -- we ate them. We -- you know, domesticated rabbit tastes like chicken. He would -- that was our supplement of meat, but he would not eat them because he was -- he was -- he fed them, he bred them, so he didn't -- he didn't eat them.

Q: When did your brother join you in hiding, cause he wasn't with you all the time before.

A: No, I -- | was away. He was always -- he was always with Marianne. So I came.

Q: What else did you do for food? What else did you eat?

A: Well, there was -- there was a lesbian [indecipherable] they were gard -- they -- professional gardeners, and they had greenhouses, and they would bring us vegetables, lettuce, and things like that. And the food was bought in the black market. That was always avail -- you know, that was available.

Q: Did you have enough money with you?

A: I didn't have any. Marianne's husband. I didn't have any. I was -- we were just there, and they took care of us.

Q: And was the woman, Mrs. or Ms. Pukas, was she involved at all in the food -- getting food for you, or helping you to get food?

A: Well, I pres -- I suppose, you know, whatever was being ab -- whatever was being purchased in the black market, whoever could bring it, and whoever could locate it. Because the [indecipherable] on -- you know, everybody else was on food stamps. So you purchased food stamps and then you could buy food, or you had people who grew food, and we had chickens also, and they laid eggs. And ma -- Mariani became the farmer's wife, and she would go out and look for the eggs, I mean, so when you think about it, it's -- it's -- as sad at it -- as it is, it's almost -- you can't really comprehend it, it's just not something -- you look back and you say, I really did that? And this was luxury yet.

Q: Did you ever feel hungry while you were in hiding?

A: No, no. No, it was -- it -- it -- | well -- how shall I say? When I was with my father's friend I lived a very civilized life, and I mean it was civilized with Mariani too, and with -- with almost everybody else, I mean, I -- I moved around, I lived in many places, and it is interesting, some of the people must have known. I lived in a place where she -- the woman owned a restaurant, a hotel and a coffee house, and the wine growers would come, you know, to f -- to si -- is -- and she would entertain them. At 11 o'clock at night she would go to bed and she would leave me there with all those people until they were all ready to go home. And she had a -- she had a -- an -- she had a maid and she must have known, I mean, 1-it was just almost like impossible not to, because there I didn't go out, I stayed in -- in the apartment all the time, so -- I mean, I was in situations where you -- looking back now I said, you know, I ca -- I can't comprehend them. So -

- so to relate them, and make people say, that is not that's -- you know, it -- it doesn't make sense.

Q: Now, when you first left home and you first went into hiding, were there certain items that were important to you that you could bring? Or did you have to leave pretty much everything at home?

A: Yeah, cl -- clothing. I brought -- you know, you brought as much clothing as you could carry.

You couldn't -- you couldn't carry a lot because you're moving in someplace, you -- you know, your space was very limited. But you know, there are a few things you took and you also have to remember I was hiding from the beginning of "42 until 44. There was winter, summer, so you really had -- that was an additional thing you had to fend for. S-So as long -- you know, as long as my parents were around, they were -- they -- they took care, but thereafter it was really Mariani and her husband.

Q: What's the age difference between you and Mariani?

A: She was born in 1910, and -- 15 years.

Q: And what did it feel like, was she a close friend, was she more like a mother substitute, or --

A: No, y-you know [indecipherable] in Europe you will -- you are -- you -- you don't -- you don't address people in the [indecipherable] I don't know wha --

Q: Familiar way --

A: Ona familiar basis. You're more -- I mean, I always would call her Mrs. Mariani, if -- you know, all those years. And only when I -- when she came here, she became Mariani. You know, as -- as we got older -- I mean to her I'm chil -- to her I'm still the child, okay, that's -- it's very funny now, but that's the way it is. So no, she was -- sh-she always -- there was always a certain amount of respect, and that was it.

Q: Since you were separated from your parents, did you -- do you feel that you looked to her for certain parenting sort of guidance?

A: No, I was re -- I was self sufficient, self reli -- not sufficient, self reliant, I didn't -- no I didn't, really not. I mean, she told me when to get on and off, but otherwise -- I mean, we ha -- I -- it's very difficult, I mean she -- she did not a-assume a parental type of a -- it wasn't that type of a relationship. It was more like, you know, we all lived together. I mean, we slept together, you can't get much closer. But there was still as -- a certain respect.

Q: What are some of the ways that even if it was not in the style of a sort of parental role, but some of the ways that perhaps she helped take care of you during this time?

A: Well, y -- you know, if I ne -- if I needed to -- I would ask her for anything, for -- there was really no -- no -- for advice or anything, I mean, we just lived day by day. There was no -- you know, there was nothing that you would say, what shall I do, or how shall I do. That never came into question because there was no -- there was no way or no reason for anything like that.

Q: What about your education? You weren't going to school, so --

A: No, we -- I -- 1 -- no, we would -- she [indecipherable] her husband would -- we would do math and we would read. And I was an insa -- I was an voracious reader, and we listened to the radio, and music, and talk, mostly talk.

Q: Anything you remember about your conversations?

A: No, no, no. I mean, most of it was really political. I mean, we would listen to the -- to news, we would listen to the Voice of America, you know, and they're bombing here, they're bombing there and they are retreating because it is advantageous for the Germans, but we are winning.

And, so it was really mostly we were waiting. We -- we would see the planes coming in and we were delighted, you know. Bela -- it's because it was m -- really in an outer district. We see the -

- wa -- American or British planes flying over, dropping bombs, and we were delighted. I mean, when I lived in the city it wasn't this much fun because everybody went into the basement where you were -- I was alone in a big apartment house, and that was not fun.

Q: When was this?

A: That was when I was hiding, you know, when one of the places, when the air raid sirens came, everybody had to vacate their apartment and at one time I was hiding in the closet because they were going from apartment to apartment to see if all the apartments are empty. And of course you never knew if you're -- this building is going to be bombed, th -- at that point you were scared, but there was nothing you could do. You could just wait it out and hope for the best.

Q: I think Marianne also mentioned when you're hiding together with her, that while everybody during the air raids went to the cellar, you would go to the attic. Is that what you remember?

A: No, th-that probably was when we were at this [indecipherable] house. No, I don't remember that, because most -- as I said, that's the only time we had an attic. Otherwise, there was no attic.

That -- that -- the worst was the apartment buildings because here the apart -- the house was totally still, there was nobody there, and that was it.

Q: So you were afraid of both the air raid and then being found?

A: [indecipherable] right. I mean we -- I mean, we knew what bombs can do, or maybe have seen destruction, and it was just the eeriest feeling to be in a -- in a building, the only person in a building, so to say. I p -- the a -- in your imagination, because you didn't see it. That's it.

Q: So -- so now when you are in the hiding place in the -- in the wooden shack, I believe, that's behind the laundry --

A: Right.

Q: -- place, so what -- I just lost my train of thought -- when you were there -- do you know approximately how long you were in hiding there, and would you sometimes leave from there and come back and go to different hiding places in between?

A: Here and there I would leave, yes. Here and there, when something became available. I mean, we lived in odd quo -- I mean in -- under odd circumstances. My poor brother slept on a chaise lounge which was infested with slee -- with fleas. It was horrendous.

Q: And where was that?

A: That was there because you know, you were on the ground, there was -- there were just boards on the ground as floors. So -- I mean, it -- it -- it didn't look this terrible. I me -- I'm just describing it which is really -- you can't imagine it, okay? But it wasn't that uncomfortable, and the -- the living room was -- the bedroom was perfectly fine looking, you know, we had the windows and all. But those were the --

Q: So you left when you thought there was a better place to go to?

A: No, not better, you know, just to make room, just to disappear. And --

Q: Cause you were worried about being caught at the laundry place?

A: No, and -- just making room, you know, there were so many people, I mean -- so when there was something else opened up, and somebody said, you know there is -- you'll be able to stay there, you moved on.

Q: And about how long in total would you say you were at the -- at this wooden shack?

A: Maybe a year in total. Yeah, maybe a year in total, may -- a year and a half, I really ti -- I have no concept of time. Course it's 60 -- over 60 years, and I don't dwell on it. If you were a person who dwells on it, it's a totally different story. Not only is it -- it becomes worse, because your imagination goes, right?

Q: Now, I think I heard, also from Marianne, some kind of story about the day when it was supposed to be your brother's Bar Mitzvah.

A: Yeah, yeah, that's when they caught, and they came [indecipherable]

Q: And when was this and can you tell me the story?

A: Yeah, was -- it would be May 19". He was -- he was born in "29, so he was, in 44 he was -- tw -- 39 and five, he was 13. What am I doing? He was 13. And we were waiting, you know, for my parents to come and this friend of mine came and he said they were caught. And I cannot remember any more how -- somebody denounced them. Tha -- yes, somebody denounced them.

So -- and he came and he told us, and he was able -- he went to visit them in the jail when they were in jail, and my parents told their interrogator that we went over the border to Hungary, so they shouldn't be looking for us because they caught the parents, so they knew the children was there, but my parents told them that we went -- we were sent to Hungary, and that's -- that was that. And then they were transported to Theresienstadt.

Q: But when did you learn about that?

A: Well, they were allowed to write, and they wrote to this friend of mine, and that's how we knew where they were. You know, when they arrived, you know, we are ha -- we are ina beautiful place, everything is nice, and that's how we were able to send them f-food. We would send a bag of onions or something, bag of potatoes, you know, something you can -- not knowing if they ever get it or not, but that was -- was -- so --

Q: The day of your brother's Bar Mitzvah, where were you that day when you got this news?

A: We were in -- we were home. I mean, we were hiding.

Q: In the laundry place?

A: In -- in -- yeah, yeah, mm-hm. Yeah.

Q: And -- and so he did have his Bar Mitzvah?

A: Oh no. I -- I -- when we say it would have been his Bar Mi -- he was 13. There was no way that he would ever have had it, okay? This was just like a -- you know, here he was, 13, his 13" birthday. So -- but --

Q: How did your brother take the news?

A: Well, he was 13. He was not very -- he was not very vocal. You know, he was a 13 year old boy who lived under very vicarious circumstances or conditions and so -- and as I said, he wasn't very -- he -- he was not very vocal.

Q: How did you take it? Was it somehow possible to be optimistic after -- after this?

A: You had to be. You had no choice. It's ye -- I -- I suppose this is -- we all were -- I mean, it was not a pla -- it was not pleasant, we did not know -- but we didn't know -- we had no -- we had absolutely no understanding, because nobody can -- I mean, it's not something a normal mind can comprehend. You can fear, but you really -- and -- and also, the optimism that it will be over, it will be over very soon because America is there, and Britain is fighting, okay? So it's not going to be -- it's going to be very fast, I mean. When he went into ru -- when Germans went into Russia, I mean, th-this was the end, oka -- but a -- you were always optimistic that something is going to happen what's going to end it.

Q: And you were actively following the news about the war?

A: Oh yeah, oh yeah. In fact, when we were caught, we were interrogated by the Gestapo, and so he said, and you listened to the Voice of America, and the radio we had, we couldn't really listen to it, but we had a neighbor there, she was Jewish, he wasn't, and there was a -- the owner of the building, her husband was Jewish, she wasn't, and she had two adult children, one -- one was a physician and one was -- I don't know what she was. But they were -- they knew we were there,

and they would listen or they would call Mariani and say -- and her husband, say to come and listen to the Voice of America. So when this Gest -- when I was interrogated, he said to me, "And I understand you listened to the Voice of America." And I said to him, "No," I said, "we could never, ever listen with the radio we have," I said. "If you put your finger," I said -- there was an opening in the back and, "if you put your finger there, the voice would get -- the music would get strong," I said, "and if you took it away, it died." So he looked at me and he said, "T don't know if you're this stupid, or if you're playing." And I looked at him and I said, "No, that's the way it was." And I was in there first, and then when Mariani came, I handed her my coat, and I sa -- didn't say anything, you know, and that was it. But it would -- and then -- I mean -- "m -- I'm -- how shall I say? We were able to laugh about it, you know? I mean, it was scary at the moment, but I co -- I couldn't really think of anything else, I mean, he accuses us of listening, which was a very normal thing, I mean, he di -- he might not even have known, you n - - but with that radio, you couldn't -- you couldn't if you would have wanted to. So --

Q: When is the last time that you spoke to or saw your parents? Excuse me.

A: Bless you. Is -- probably a week before they were caught. You know, there was no telephone -- there was really only when my mother could come or I could go. Mariani and I really moved quite freely. Didn't look Jewish. I pa -- what does looking Jewish mean, right? I mean, if you would -- if you would be black, or you would be oriental, it's fine. But here we were. I had blue eyes, she had blonde hair, blue eyes, very statuesque type of a per -- you know, appearance.

Nobody looked at us, we hoped. We had no papers. We just, you know, we just walked.

Q: So you were out on the streets often?

A: Oh yeah. We were out in the street. We even -- we even went to the Turkish bath every couple of weeks once, we would go and you know, make believe we having a great time, and we

did. That was -- that was our -- here I was, what, 18 - 19? Going to the Turkish baths at -- in there, nobody knew who you were, you -- you know. And it was like a bi -- you know, big -- it's not like the bath house here, there we -- you pro -- might have seen them. And this was our recreation.

Q: So you tried to enjoy life when you could?

A: We -- we tried to make the best what we had, you know, that's it. Like my brother never ventured out, because he was almost six foot tall, and he couldn't go out because what is he doing midday on the street, when everybody else is in the army, or -- or working? So what is he doing at night out, he can't go out, so he never went out.

Q: Well, this makes me wonder was it easier to go out as a young woman?

A: Yeah, you know, because I mean we knew -- you know, we wouldn't travel the time when people were working, we tried to travel with the crowd. You know, don't --the danger was that you met somebody, and in -- in there. But they might not even have meant you harm, but in -- in their just strict -- just gossiping, or say, oh we saw Annie, okay? She looked -- you know. If they would s -- [indecipherable] to have spoken to us it would have been terrible, because where do you live? How come you're still here, you know? So that was the danger of going out.

Q: Now you were aware of -- you said there's this underground sort of movement, you were aware of many Jewish people staying there in hiding.

A: Oh yeah, I mean they -- not everybody knew everybody, but this is how you -- you found places. If somebody needed a place, and you knew of somebody who might or will, you passed it on. And that's, you know, it was like underground -- a whole underground circuit.

Q: Where was -- do you remember the address or the general location of this laundry place where you hid?

A: Yeah, it was 13 Roebuckerstrasse. I went back there and it was -- it was totally cleared, so it was the weirdest, weirdest sight.

Q: When did you go?

A: Maybe 15 - 20 years ago. My husband wanted to go see Austria, so we went. It's a ver -- was a very, very strange experience. First of all, I carried a chip on my shoulder to the population, and I knew every nook and crevice. I could travel the underground, I could travel on -- but I felt like a tourist, and then that was it. In fact, we went to -- where was it? Corinthia we went and the -- that was really -- the homeland of Mr. Schwarzenegger, and [indecipherable] of my number, because I wasn't going to give them the satisfaction to say, look at them, what are -- what are they talking about we did to the Jews? So I -- I just -- I was not going to give them the satisfaction to say that, you know, and they wanted to know how come I speak so -- I can speak dialect. So how come? If I was a war bride? No, I wasn't, okay? And Austrians, when they -- I mean, it's stupid to say, are very nosy. And, you were a war bride? No. How come you speak such good -- you know. I learned it.

Q: You didn't want to tell them you're from there?

A: No, no. I mean, you know, I wasn't -- I he -- I traveled with an American passport, you know, and they can tell where you were born, so she knew I was aw -- you know, but sh-she wanted -- they wanted to know, you know, more detail, and I wasn't going to volunteer. And that's it. Now people will say why did you -- why did you cover your number? I says because I just was not going to have them say, what did they say what we did to the Jews? Look at them travel, you know? That's it.

Q: Now, I think we're getting to the point where --

A: We go to camp.

Q: -- you know, you have been -- where you're found out in your hiding place, but I'm -- I was just curious in general, is there anything else you remember as far as anything you haven't already shared, what would be the biggest challenges of this life that you had in hiding?

A: It was just one big challenge, there was no big, no small, it was just -- it was so -- to survive.

And e -- I don't th -- I mean, I did not have the capacity, I don't think as -- I don't know, age or - -or -- or brain, to -- to realize how dire the situation was, you know? I mean, you wanted to survive and you -- the hope that it will end, that's all. I mean, you -- y-you just, as I said before, you tried not to -- not to be di -- to -- to -- not to be destroyed. You lived in your own little mind.

And that's the whole a -- it -- it's really very, very difficult to -- to under -- I -- I myself don't like it -- don't understand it. And looking back on it I say, did I really live like this, did I really do that? And as I have said many times, that the m -- End of Tape Two, Side A Beginning Tape Two, Side B

Q: This is a continuation of a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Ann Green. This is tape number two, side B. I think you wanted to say something? Did you want to -- okay. So now I wanted to ask you, continuing where we left off, if you would tell me what happened when you were discovered in the hiding place.

A: Oh yeah.

Q: This is the place with Mrs. or Miss Pukas.

A: Yeah.

Q: The -- the laundry. What happened?

A: Well, it's six o'clock in the morning, we could hear the gate opening. There was a fence, and there was a gate. The gate opened, and the bedroom windows faced, and we saw I don't know

how many coming in. And they just came in and they arrested us. I mean, they went through the whole -- through the place, they were looking for things. And I don't know if Mariani told you, but her husband wrote a memoir, and of course they found it. And he also was -- he had colon cancer, a -- operated on, but he wore a --

Q: A catheter?

A: Yeah. And of course they saw the -- his manuscript and that didn't help any. So anyway, we went from there, they arrested us and they brought us to the city jail, and there we were, | think, for almost a month. We were privileged prisoners there because we were the only, more or le -- that was mostly migrant workers, and I was [indecipherable] in quarantine, and the [indecipherable] was into a big room. Mariani and I slept on the table because we weren't about to sleep on the -- with them, because we were scared. And we would get up in the morning and we would go into the washroom and strip and wash, because one thing we knew, we had to try to keep clean. Those people all looked at us because they didn't know from that. Anyway, eventually --

Q: And when was this?

A: That was in the city jail.

Q: But when?

A: When? That was in May deg44. May deg44, was it?

Q: I think she said it was --

A: [have it here.

Q: -- June. Think it was close to that.

A: It's ju -- no, I'm sorry, it was in June. It was in June -- no, it was in -- in June, I think, yeah.

No, we were deported in June, that was at -- it was my -- it -- it was either -- it was either the end

of May, or the beginning of June, because the end of June we were deported. We -- yeah, we got -- we came to Auschwitz, to Birkenau.

Q: How do you think or what do you know about the way in which you were found in your hiding place? What -- what have you been able to understand how that happened that you were caught?

A: We really -- I really don't know. The woman who was hiding us, nothing happened to her. All the things we had that -- photographs, and little whatever was left there -- excuse me, stayed there, and Mariani recouped that after the war. So we don't unders -- excuse me -- we also -- she also has a deserter -- not -- I don't know if -- if she told him he can't stay any more, and he was caught. So we -- I don't know if it was he who was trying to save himself and said there are Jews there, or if she became scared and told somebody, and they went and denounced us. I w -- nobody ever knows -- will know.

Q: It came as a total surprise at the time?

A: Total. Out of -- out of the blue. No pla -- there was no -- nothing said, nobody -- nothing -- nobody but the deserter came -- you know, there was nobody new who would have -- we would have said, oh maybe. But it was all the old acquaintances, or people who were aware of us. So, really I don't know. I truly don't know.

Q: And you stayed in the jail for --

A: A month.

Q: A month. And what were conditions like there? You were starting to explain.

A: Yeah, wi -- how and when I can't remember any more, but it -- we -- first we stayed in that humongous -- with like maybe 40 or 50 people. And then we were moved into a smaller cell, with maybe only 20 and then I don't know if it was the matron or who, took a -- chose us to give

out food and dishes and we swept the hal -- the hall, and our -- our s -- we -- Mariani had a pr -- and I had a pr -- a private cell. I shouldn't laugh, but it was -- I mean, it was -- and they never locked the gate or any -- we couldn't go anyplace, I mean we were in jail.

Q: But it was sort of relaxed conditions?

A: Yeah, it was, for us it was a rela -- you know, the breakfast, lunch and dinner was ser -- you know, we would give out the cutlery and we collected and would sweep the floors. So the day passed. And Mariani was a ferocious smoker. She didn't only smoke cigarettes, she would -- they would -- you know, cigarettes were very hard to get by. They would take the butt, open it up [indecipherable] the tobacco and they re -- either roll it, or re-stuff it and smoke it. And -- so one day Mariani said, she s -- we have to [indecipherable] to get -- if you can get to our stuff, and the only reason she wanted to get in there because she had two boxes of that smelly, old tobacco.

And the interesting part is she smoked all this, and she s -- that was the end of smoking. Like cold turkey, no more.

Q: When is it that she stopped smoking? You're saying --

A: In -- in jail. When -- when she was finished smoking whatever she had there, and that was it.

Q: So you were able to bring a few items with you?

A: Yeah, I mean, you know. And th-the most important was the tobacco.

Q: Now, you had about a month there --

A: A month there.

Q: -- and what were you thinking would happen next?

A: We had no -- we had really, absolutely -- I mean, n-no -- I -- I -- no -- how shall I -- we didn't know. We just didn't know. The only thing we knew was Theresienstadt. We didn't know Auschwitz, we didn't know Mauthausen. I mean, I had a very -- we had a very interesting thing

happen to us in -- when I traveled with my husband, we were in Salzburg. Mauthausen is right there, and my husband is a tourist, he speaks to everybody and speaking the language -- he spoke the -- the bridge was closed, so he wanted to know from the policeman why the bridge was closed. So he -- they were making a movie and the policeman said to him, have you gone to Mauthausen? And my husband said no. So he told him how to get there, but among other things he also said he lived the ri -- the -- it's -- it was a country road, okay, and the trucks would go past there. There was -- you know, there was the road, and there was houses on one side of the street. And he said, you know, the trucks would go by, we didn't know that there was a camp there, there were thi -- they were doing this. So that's the mentality of the -- of -- we didn't know. I mean, we didn't want it, but we just waited for him, and we opened our arms when they arrived.

Q: So you find it hard to believe that they didn't know that --

A: From -- from a -- you know, I have a slanted -- I'm for -- that -- that I have a very sla -- because I've lived there, I -- yo-you know, I felt the anti-Semitism all my life, so consequently I -- "m -- I'm talking about the -- more or less, I'm not talking about the people of today, I can't because I don't know them. But they are probably better educated, and what is a -- a -- an Austrian? Austria was a mixture of Czechs, Poles, Yugoslavs, you know, I mean there's no such a thing as a pure Austrian. They all came from the so -- I mean, it was the great Austrian under the -- under the emperor. So there's no such a thing, so you have a mixture of -- of people. And as I said, I'm -- I'm -- I was -- I'm prejudiced, I suppose, and I look at them totally different.

And so I can't really -- I'm -- I can't have a unprejudiced opinion.

Q: So you had no idea what was about to happen --

A: No.

Q: -- but then --

A: We went on the special transport, we were only I think 15 or 16 people, and really was a -- a regular train car, and we knew there was something going on, but of course, nobody knew.

Nobody could in -- nobody ever got out of there to tell, and America knew, but they didn't spread the word, so nobody knew. America knew where the camps were, right? So we were -- I mean, we know it did not bode well, but we really had to see what it is. We had to wait, we had no -- what were we going to do?

Q: Describe the journey, how long and -- and when did you know?

A: I don't -- I -- I don't think -- it was just a couple of hours. Was a -- you know, Vienna is not this far away from -- from Auschwitz. It wasn't an overnight, it definitely wasn't.

Q: And it was a comfortable ride?

A: Oh, it -- it was a regular third class coach, you know, we had -- we had the whole compartment -- we had the whole -- we had the whole car, I should say, not compartment, you know? And I suppose we were guarded. That I can't even remember, you know, we were -- because here we are, we didn't know where we were going. I remember --

Q: But -- but you felt it was ominous?

A: Oh yes. In fact, there was one man, he was alone, and he asked -- he had some gold pieces, and he asked Mariani to sew it into his coat. And she did. Not that it ever helped him, because he lost his coat, okay? So --

Q: You were with other Jewish prisoners?

A: Yeah, we were about with 15 other people. We were with 15 other people. We -- and there was one -- there was one family who thought that they weren't Jewish, the -- they converted, but they were with us, too. And the mother died, and I think Mariani took care of the girl, and I think

the father also survived. I don't know because I left -- I was lucky enough to be shipped out, so I wasn't there when Ausch -- wh-when Birkenau was liberated.

Q: So you're on this journey, it's not a very long one, but when do you first know that you're arriving to Auschwitz? Tell me about that.

A: Well, we arrived, and we were sele -- you know, there was selection, the separation of men and women. And in hindsight, of course, we -- after we were -- we -- after you -- the -- we talked to inmates, we found out what was going on. Before that you had no idea. We didn't. And Mariani's husband was sent to one side, my brother went in the other side, and Mariani and I are -- were together. And we were together for a whi -- for a -- in fact, I wanted my brother to go with Mariani's husband and they pushed him back. He went right into -- into selection. And Mariani and I were in the block together for maybe four weeks or so, four or five weeks, and then I worked that we -- I was sent to work in -- they tor -- I still don't know what they did with it. You tor -- you tore the clothing into strips, braided them, and that's it. Whatever they did with it, whatever they used it for, I never found out. And then I worked -- I built a road to the east, we were transporting rocks and breaking the rocks, and there we had a guard who would let us sit in the outhouse by the tower to take a re -- it was brutally hot, even in -- in September. No, th -- October -- no, was towards -- it was hot. And he would let us go in one by one and when the super -- the guy who was supervising, him came -- he came on a horse, so he could see him, so he would call whoever was in there out. I mean, that was --

Q: But he gave you breaks, he let you ta --

A: He gave us breaks. He gave -- it was a young -- it was a young Austrian kid who really probably didn't want to be there, and didn't agree, and gave each and every one of us a break.

Q: Was it very hard work? Very hard, manual labor?

A: It was physical labor. I mean, people breaking -- you know, breaking stones and loading them into lorries and moving the lorries, and dumping them in this -- in the -- in the road bed. And -- I mean, it was physical labor.

Q: Were you pretty strong at the time?

A: I must have been. I must have been because otherwise I couldn't -- there's one thing you tried to avoid, and that was being in the hospice. Okay, that was not -- and I was there two -- I had dysentery, and in fact, that's where Mariani broke her nose, she came to visit me and she slipped, she broke her nose. But fortunately I got out of there, and after I got out of there, I -- we did landscaping for -- with pick and shovel. And they had -- also they had Russian prisoners there, pr-prisoners of war, I suppose. And there was one of them, he used -- they had -- he must have been working in an orchard or something, and whenever we crossed, he would give me apples. I mean, when y -- you know, I remember the -- the -- how shall I say? The good things.

Q: You remember little moments of human kindness.

A: Right, you know. And that -- I mean, I would -- I would buy cabbage. There were people who worked in -- in the fields and they would bring heads of cabbage back, and I would give one ration of my bread, one day ration, for cabbage. And I really think that's what helped me survive, because it was the only --

Q: You had no other sort of vegetables, or roughage, or --

A: No, no, no, whatever it was, it was boiled. It was soup. The only solids we ever got was potatoes. And if you were lucky you were the last one, so you can get the peels, too.

Q: Were you hungry a lot of the time?

A: I can't remember. Y-You n -- you know, we would have -- I -- I would have -- we would have sit in -- we have food fantasies, we would set a table with candles, and the tablecloths and napkins and silver. I mean, you know --

Q: In your mind.

A: In your -- yeah, you were -- we were talking. The way -- this is the way it's going to look.

You know --

Q: You would talk with friends and fantasize about the future.

A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. It's --

Q: And mostly about food, or other things, too?

A: Yeah, no, but -- bu -- you know, tha-that was the weirdest thing, to se -- here you are, you have nothing to eat, you have to watch that nobody steals your bread, or you ge -- or you traded your bread for a -- for a quarter head of cabbage. And -- and that's it. So it is really -- the -- the weird -- I think the weirdness about this all, that here we are, we are sitting here and we are talking about it. Right? And we can laugh, as sad as it is, so --

Q: Did you form friendships?

A: Yes and no, you know. I -- I had a -- a friend which -- she died of TB. We slept together -- so -- in the work camp. See, I was very lucky because I was only in Auschwitz from the end of June to October, and at that point they were looking for German citizens. Suddenly I became [indecipherable] German citizen. Was elevated. And they were looking for laborers, labor for a -- for a factory. And that's when we were shipped out, and then we were shi -- there were -- we -- it must have been all the way up north, and -- and what is it called, they have -- they have the -- right by the -- you know, the -- where the bogs are, what is it called?

Q: That region of -- of Germany, you mean?

A: Yeah, and I don't know what it is called. And then they transport -- they had no place for us, so they pick -- they pitched enormous tents, like circus tents and they put us in there, and there was a storm and one of the tents collapsed. It was horrible.

Q: Where is this?

A: That was in Germany.

Q: Ina -- a different camp?

A: Yeah, w-we were on transport. And they kept us there for while, and the horrible part there was it was very damp, and it was very wet, and the only place -- th-the onl -- they built a latrine.

All they did was dig a hole, put -- took the bark off the trees and made a landing, so to say, and then put a log across, and my biggest fear was to fall in, to slip because it was wet. I -- I mean, you n -- you walked there and your -- your -- you wore those wooden shoes and they would stick in the mud, you know? So here you are, going up on this little --

Q: Like a ledge --

A: -- like a -- a platform, but it was all tree -- it was like an -- a -- a logs, but they had no bark on it, because if you had bark on it, you don't slip. And my fear was to fall in there. And from there we went to Bergen-Belsen, and we just hung there until we came -- wi -- they send us to the ammunition factory.

Q: Now, I want go back for a moment. Do you think you would recognize -- I have a map of Auschwitz -- of Birkenau, and I don't know if you would be able to point out any of the places where you remember being, or -- I know you said when you were first there, you were in a certain area with Marianne. I don't know if any of this looks familiar to you.

A: No. We were in block 13, and you know what the greatest -- the most horrible part about Auschwitz was, to me anyway, was that I could not comprehend -- now I understand, but then I

couldn't comprehend, the cru -- the cruelty of the -- of the Jewish people to -- you know, like the blockoma, okay? I walked -- when we were there, the first day, I went up to a young kid, she had her mother and her sister with her, she was younger than I am, beautiful, beautiful girl, Polish.

And I ask her to -- the house -- the bunk was empty, if Mariani could go inside. It was brutally hot, and humid. She wouldn't let her go in, okay? And I said, if I ever come across her, I'Il really lull her. I had such anger at her. I did come across her. What did she do? At -- we were li -- at the day we were liberated, she -- I s -- suddenly see her, what'd she do? There was a German kid, and she knocked him off his bike and she took the bike. And I said, you know what? I wouldn't even dirty my hands on her. It was -- it was so -- I mean, I-I could not understand, you know, that the -- the kapos and whatever, would -- I mean, she wasn't specially cruel, she was dumb, because she had entry to clothing and everything, and she would parade -- she was a kid -- sh -- I -- [remember one day she had a pink peignoir with feathers and slippers and a cigarette holder, and she would parade through the -- I mean, she was a kid. She was beautiful but she was -- maybe she was maybe 16 or 17.

Q: Do you remember her name?

A: No, no.

Q: Did you have other experiences like that, or see other --

A: No, no, she was the -- really, she was the only one. But a-as I said, when I was there, I couldn't comprehend the cruelty. But that -- that was the method. That's what the -- that was ve- very German type -- you know, that's -- that was their method of doing it, because that really gnawed in your ment -- on your mind. I mean, now I understand it, because they had to survive themselves, okay? That was their way of surviving. I don't know what I would have done if I

would have been in the position. So you -- you can't really blame them, but at -- a-at -- at the time, I could not understand it.

Q: Now you at first were with Marianne --

A: Right.

Q: -- staying with her, and then what happened, you were separated?

A: We were separated, I went -- see, Mariani had -- she w -- Mariani was stateless, so she had no -- she did not have an Austrian --

Q: And why was that, do you know?

A: No, I don't know, that I don't know. But they were looking for German citi -- citizens to -- to -- we didn't know for what. And they wanted us to work in an ammunition factory, and we did.

That's where we fi -- that's -- that was the lifesaving part of it, because I was only in camp for 11 months.

Q: When -- when you were with Marianne, or when you were still in Auschwitz but you were separated from her, would you still have occasion to see her?

A: Yes. Yeah, we -- yeah, she was in a different -- she was in a different block and I was in a different block.

Q: And how would you get to see one another, or --

A: Y-You w -- you were f -- you can't say you were free to walk, but you were -- you know, like for instance, I once -- I knew my -- my -- we were -- when we were going out for w-work, my brother's group was walking this -- we were going the opposite directions, and once I -- I gave some bread for some garlic. And I -- you know, you had that thing that there's certain things you should try to get to eat, to s -- to -- like we do today, we go to the health food store, you know?

So -- and I handed it to him and they caught him. They caught me and they caught him, and I just

-- [happened to -- there was a kapo there, a woman, and her boyfriend told me that he was alright at the time. That's -- you know -- because I didn't know what they were going to do to him. It just s -- and he -- you know, he s -- put his hand out, I put mine out in walking by and somebody saw it, so that was a bad experience.

Q: And with Marianne you were able to spend time with her and -- and --

A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, she knew where I was, she knew -- and I don't know where she was, but we were -- we were together and we were apart, and sometimes we were in the same bunk, then we were separated and then we come back into the same bunk.

Q: Do you think it was important for you to have someone like that -- her there, and --

A: Oh definitely, definitely. Yeah [indecipherable] it was important for -- I suppose important for her, and you know, I was -- I was -- though I was eight -- 19, I was still, you know, I don't know if you can say a kid. I mean, I was -- I wasn't this exposed to the world, so at that point I looked at her as a -- a -- a co -- how shall I say, guardian or si -- whatever, you know? At one point I go -- I was desperate, I told her I had -- I had lice, you know? And she said, "You take care of yours and I take care of mine."

Q: She was scared to get it?

A: What?

Q: Was she scared to get it from you?

A: I don't know, I mean -- you know? So -- but there was nothing she could do for me.

Q: She told me some story about showering in the middle of the night, do you remember this?

Taking cold showers in the middle of the night to stay --

A: No, that I don't know. You couldn't go out. I mean, at night you couldn't -- you were in, okay? And the worst thing which could happen to you, that was in Birkenau, is -- you know, you

had a bucket for elimination, so there was a thing which, if you were the last one in the morning to use that, because if you used it the last one, it was you who carried it out. As I said, if you don't laugh, you cry. When I -- when we first went -- got there, you know, we undressed, we went into the shower, they cut your hair. They tattooed you and they gave you clothes. And you have to remember we came from -- that we want to say normal life. We had normal clothes on and here I get whatever they gave me, I know what it was. It was a navy blue, straight dress. And it had a whatever on there. And I had to go to the bathroom and the latrines all have the windows. And I'm si -- I'm looking in and I see a -- somebody standing there in the reflection in the window, you know? And I turn around and I'm looking for the person. It was me. Didn't recognize myself, because my hair was cut, and I had this funny dress on, and here I am, looking -- looking around, I thought maybe there's somebody, you know, there must be somebody in back of me, it wasn't me. And at -- suddenly I realized, it's you.

Q: Was this a real shock to your system?

A: Yes, that was a shock, because you know, I had no mirr -- End of Tape Two, Side B

Beginning Tape Three, Side A

Q: This is a continuation of a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Ann Green. This is tape number three, side A.

A: A transformation, yeah, I mean I had long hair. Suddenly I -- I was -- we were lucky, our hair wasn't shorn. So -- you know, and I remember they cut it, and the shock was such, you know, it - - we was -- within a couple of hours that you came from -- want to call it normal environment into -- in -- into -- you know, just totally different.

Q: So this is right upon arrival?

A: Right upon arrival, okay, you're -- here I am. I'm looking. Who is this person? And the shock to see it is me, and I was always very well endowed. Here I had no bra on. I mean, I just -- it ga - - it was -- I didn't un -- I -- I -- I just did not comprehend that it is me right away. I couldn't und -

Q: So what else went with this feeling? I mean, this was obviously very different than anything else you'd already experienced.

A: Right, I mean, th -- it -- it wasn't life threatening or anything, it was just shocking. It was -- th-the -- the sudden transformation, that was the -- the thing.

Q: When did you receive the tattoo?

A: Right at entry, you know, right when we were in the -- we undressed, I think -- we undressed, our hair was cut, went into the sauna, or even -- and I think we might even have gotten the to -- tattoo right away, cause wi -- went very fast.

Q: Do you remember your number?

A: Yeah.

Q: Can you tell me?

A: Yeah. A7268.

Q: And would you mind telling me just this little story you mentioned when we weren't recording, about describing or trying to tell young children, your children and perhaps your grandchildren what this number on your arm is all about.

A: When -- I always felt that y -- very young children, or children as a rule, to tell them something adults can't comprehend was not necessary to convey to them, so I told them that -- they wanted to know what my number was and I told them that when I was a little girl my mother didn't want me to get lost, so that was my telephone number. And they took that as -- a- as that's what it was. And as they got older, and they heard and they learned and they never questioned why I said that. They -- you know, they were old -- when they learned and heard about the Holocaust, they were old enough to know that I didn't want to scare them or burden them, and that's it.

Q: And you said there was something that came up because Marianne has a similar number.

A: Yeah, Mariani has it se -- A7265. And they wanted to know how come that her telephone number and my telephone number is the same.

Q: Did you ha --

A: Similar.

Q: Did you have to answer those kind of que --

A: Well, at that point, you know, we told them, you know. But they were already older, you know. Because then they have heard, you know, the kids hear. We think they don't, but they do, and they might not talk about it, but they, at that point they apparently knew. And whenever they ask a question I would answer them, but I would never elaborate, because whatever they wanted to know they -- they were told, but let them digest it so to say and if they want to know ask more.

And I -- I really feel that when they ask me to speak in the -- in the temple, I said, the children only have to be 13 or 14, and -- and that's it.

Q: That's the same age you were when --

A: Yeah, but I never give it -- I just felt, you know, the ol -- you know, as I said, I -- it's so interesting because here they are, middle class house, you're telling them you lived the same life and then they see movies and they hear, and then they look at you, and it's very har -- it -- it's really not something you can understand, you -- or imagine. You can look at pictures or everything. I'm -- as I have said before, and I'll say it again, that even I can't believe that al -- you can -- you can sink this low and come back.

Q: Now, when you saw Marianne's husband Otto going to this one side --

A: No, we had -- we had no idea.

Q: When -- when did you learn?

A: When we got into camp. When we got in -- in -- into the blocks, you know, and we met other prisoners. I mean, I once -- there was one lady who came in from Theresienstadt, and the chimneys were going and the smell -- I mean, you can -- when you -- when hair burns and when flesh burns, you smell it. And she thought it was a bakery, because that's what she was told. All right? So it's really -- you know, it's not only I who ca -- who, it's -- it's just some -- I mean, you see the smoke, you see the s -- you -- you have the smell, and she was told it's a bakery.

Q: But -- but you knew otherwise pretty soon?

A: Oh yeah -- no -- well, of cour -- once you're there, you knew.

Q: And is that smell one of your most dominant memories of --

A: No, no. I ha -- I was -- when I came here and I married, and I had -- eventually had children, I wanted them -- I wasn't ga -- I-I was not going to burden them with my background. Since I

can't comprehend, there was no reason to -- t-to -- you know, you -- to do that, becau -- you have to eat that, because I didn't have anything to eat. I just felt that this wasn't the right approach, so I never do -- dwelled on it, and I wanted tha -- I consciously, subconsciously, I wanted to lead as normal a life as one can.

Q: And you think this did help you, this approach?

A: Yeah, because I -- I don't dwell on it, I don't feel sorry for myself. It's a part of history I could have lived without, and everybody else could have. But it happened, can't be undone, that's it.

Q: Did you ever at the time let your emotions get the better of you?

A: I don't think so, no, because I -- I -- everybody's ho-ho -- every inmate hoped to get out, okay? If it wasn't tomorrow it was the day after. You -- you -- I myself always -- I always -- I was invisible. Stand, stand, sit, sit. Three hours, two hours, it didn't matter. [indecipherable] brainless, I don't know. It was just -- I felt that this was -- by looking at the situation I felt that this was the -- the only way to survive. You tried to be well, you tried stay out of the hospital, and -- and that's all.

Q: When did you learn what had happened to your brother?

A: When I came out, when we were liberated, when -- when I came back to Vienna.

Q: You didn't know what had happened to him at Auschwitz?

A: No, th-the -- we said, whenever we get separated, whatever we'll be, we come back to Vienna. And -- and that was it.

Q: And -- and what did happen to him?

A: I -- he went into tra -- he was in tr -- he went in trans -- into selection, he got gassed. So they had -- they have -- the Germans are very good keepers of data. They have -- every sa -- have -- I

can't find it, but I have it. They tell you what transport they went in, they tell you when they went into the gas chamber, they know every -- everything is documented.

Q: At some point at Auschwitz you didn't see him any more, but you didn't know --

A: No, I mean, and I -- once you ch-changed your working -- where we work station, he was sent someplace else, and they were sent some -- he worked on a -- on a -- it was like an Air Force base, but not active for flying, they were demolishing the planes which were shot down, which they can sal -- it was like a salvage yard or something. I learned that.

Q: And how were you -- not that it's possible to console someone, but did you spend time with Marianne after she learned about her husband, and was it possible to --

A: No, we did -- we didn't know. I mean, we -- we found out, you know, later, but there was no - - ye -- you know, you were totally helpless, there was nothing you could do. If you went into a -- a -- a depresh -- if you would have gone into a depression or something, it would have been detrimental to the -- to your -- to your own well being or survival, or whatever. I don't think we did it consciously, but s -- some -- because the dri -- at that point the drive to survive is incredible. Even if the chances are small, you don't realize that the chances are small. You are a - - if you're optimistic, you are going to get out and that's it, you know, so the mind is a very, very complicated organ. Is it an organ? No.

Q: The brain, yes.

A: The brain.

Q: Yeah.

A: What?

Q: I think the brain, yes.

A: Yeah. It's a very, very complicated part of the body.

Q: Were you very worried about being selected as well?

A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the last selection I went through was with Mariani and I was -- I had a rash, and this was a total no-no. And so Mariani said -- we were falling back, so by the time -- you know, you did anything and everything, and I kept my clothes here -- I mean, you're naked, but you have your possessions. So I went and I -- so I should be -- with the whole thing, you know, a -- apparently they had enough, and here I was, and they gave me -- I showed them my number and he gave me a push like I almost no -- fell, you know, but they had enough. You know, he didn't want me any more, and neither they didn't -- and not Mariani either, so -- she was in back of me. So that was that. It's -- it is t -- as the -- as the dice falls, that's what it is.

Q: Were the living conditions, what were they like in your barracks where you were sleeping?

A: Yeah, the regular barracks, I mean --

Q: Was it very cramped and -- and --

A: Yeah, I don't -- I can't remember how many we were, but we slept head foot, foot head, you know? I think probably te -- I -- I really don't know how many. At least 10.

Q: Were you with other Jewish women also from Austria, or where were they from?

A: No, w-we were -- I don't really know where they all came from, but no, no, just -- we came in with the Hungarian transport. When we came in the Hungarian transports were just coming in.

That's why I have an A, because most -- most older Hungarian transports who had tattoos, got an A. I mean, they prac -- I mean, it was 11 months before the war was over.

Q: Now, tell me about how you learned about your parents? Did you learn something about their fate while you were in Auschwitz?

A: No.

Q: That's also after?

A: No, also after. There wa -- th-there was a transport came in and there was one woman from aus -- from Theresienstadt, and I ask her if she knew my mother, a be -- my mother had red -- very, very dark red hair, and so I described her to her, so she says, yes, she knew her, she walked -- she worked in the laundry, okay? But she said, you know, she ca -- all right, this lady came to Auschwitz, she doesn't know what is going to be. And that was it, that's the last I heard. And my parents were th -- transported out, one of the last transports.

Q: To Auschwitz?

A: Yeah, mm-hm.

Q: And when did you learn about that finally?

A: Not I -- not too long ago that I -- I don't know how, when and where. I don't know if it was Debbie that we got a -- that sh -- that we received a -- the notice that on this and this date, they came to Auschwitz, and they were gassed.

Q: So you never really knew for sure what had happened to them for many years?

A: No, no, I mean, that's logi -- that -- you know, they did not survive, because if they would have survived, they would have come back. And this was -- you know, this was their arrangement, whoever comes back, goes back.

Q: So, there was this one person who gave you little breaks when you were working, but other than that at Auschwitz, were you working very long hours? Was it very difficult work?

A: Yeah, they -- we all did. We stay -- I'm sorry. We went to what -- appelle, okay? And then we went out to work. And then we came back, I -- you know, time and days, I -- one go -- I -- we came back for a whatever, in the early -- late afternoon I suppose, and have appelle, have food and go to bed.

Q: Did you ever get a day off?

A: No. What's a day off? We wouldn't have known what to do with a day off. No, it was -- it was -- it's a -- it was detention, it was jail, you know?

Q: Did you feel any connection any more to the religion you'd grown up with, at that time?

A: I -- how -- you know, it's wa -- I -- I knew I was Jewish. I had no -- I had no -- I have no anger. I didn't ask why me. And it was -- I mean, I would have never changed my religion, or you know, never given it a thought, no.

Q: I mean, did you pray at all while you were in au -- Auschwitz?

A: To survive. But not really pray. Hoping rather than praying.

Q: So you didn't -- you didn't necessarily pray to God during that time?

A: Probably not. Probably not. You know, just -- I -- somehow religion never -- never -- never entered, you know? The -- the one thing you -- you wanted was to survive. How, when and where was up to God, right? So it's -- I really can't remember.

Q: Were there any -- was there any way in which you observed any of the Jewish holidays?

A: No, you wouldn't know when they were, unless somebody would have had a calendar someplace, or heard someplace, you know -- I mean, some people had entries to offices and things like that, and they would say, you know, today is -- whatever, okay? Now I knew when I was selected to -- to leave, it was my mother's birthday because somebody told me that it was October the 18". So I didn't know when I -- you know, but that -- that's about it. It was just so happen, but y -- there was no time, you lose time, which is fortunate because you don't, you know, th-that, there is no time. You can't tell a week from a month from a day. Didn't matter if it was Saturday or it was Tuesday, it's [indecipherable] I mean, to me not anyway.

Q: Marianne said that you know, you had be very resourceful, of course --

A: Very much so.

Q: -- and even to learn to steal food. Did you see that, or --

A: No, I don't be -- I never stole food. I always watched that nobody steal from me, but I never stole food. And -- and -- and -- and I bought -- you know, I would -- what is the word?

Q: Exchange?

A: Yeah, trade. But I -- no, I never stole food. That's the one thing I ta -- I would -- you know, you would be lucky and were able to help to carry the kettle, which meant that when you -- when it was all empty, you had the bottom, whatever was there. But otherwise all you had to be was the last one in line to get the potatoes, you had all the peels, which was great. But otherwise --

Q: Now, what was -- what was the situation with your health? Was it changing a lot while you were at Auschwitz?

A: I went from 150 to maybe 70 pounds. So when I got -- I was very sick when the -- when we were liberated. I had -- I had diarrhea, and I had -- it was horrible. To come from the bunk to the -- to the latrine was like you -- you know, you were lucky if you made it. And we were liberated the [indecipherable] I think it was the 84" division, and Pa-Patton's army, they were still coming down. And they opened the gates and of course everybody went out. And I turned around and I went back. I ge -- I could have gotten trampled, but I -- it was so scary, because everybody pushed out for no reason at all. And we had that -- it was very interesting because the camps for the north -- there were camps in -- further north, above our camp, and --

Q: And now you're talking about --

A: About the work camp.

Q: And the name is?

A: It was in Salzwedel, it was a -- a converted wire factory, but we made ammunition. I -- I made hulls for bullets. And it worked in a drum, and every so often a bullet would get stuck, you know

a hull would get stuck, and I would let the machine run. That was my contribution to -- but you had to be careful, because the guard would hear it if she was close by, so you had to be very careful. But that was a -- it was like an achievement. So anyway --

Q: So just to go back, so we're sort of finishing up when you were at Auschwitz, did you witness or have anything to do with any resistance activities there?

A: No, no. We just had to stand once, I don't know for how many hours because somebody escaped. And they brought him back and they put -- they ha -- they put him in a bunker. Meaning a bunker was like y-you couldn't sit, stand straight for -- I mean, I don't know, I -- that's what I was told, that you could not stand straight. And we had to stand appelle. And then once they hung somebody in front of everybody to show them what happened when you escape. That was my whole --

Q: Do you think you saw these things and reacted emotionally, or do you think you were shutting down your emotions a lot of the time?

A: I think we shut it down. You just shut off, because you cou -- you -- you had to. You know, you -- if you wanted to survive, you could not -- you couldn't -- you -- you just couldn't wallow -- you couldn't be -- wallop in it, you couldn't -- and you could not come back to -- to a normal life if you would. I don't think so.

Q: Do you have any sense if most of the others around you were reacting similarly? Did you talk with others about this sort of thing?

A: You know, I have very little contact with people who -- I-I just hear, okay? Debbie has a friend, it was -- it's -- oh, and his parents are survivors, and he looked at me, and he said, "How come you're so normal?" I didn't -- I really did not -- I di -- I -- so his wife to -- I don't know if it's his wi -- it -- both parents, I -- I really -- and she said, "I want you to meet my mother." And I

said to Debbie, "Debbie, this is not -- I'm not doing this, you know? I -- I don't want to be rude, but at the same token," I said, "I don't need this." So --

Q: Do you find it at all difficult, for instance in this interview --

A: No.

Q: -- bringing back all the memories?

A: No, no, no. It's been si -- it -- i -- it's part of life which I could have lived without, we could all have lived without, but you can't -- you can't change it. It's been, and I -- you can't let it take hold of you. It's been, it's like when somebody pa -- dies -- when somebody passes away. I mean, it's not fun to have lost my husband, but that's life. He lived a good life, he enjoyed his children, he enjoyed his family, that's it. Maybe camp made me like that, I don't know. I really don't. Sometimes I think there's something wrong with me. I really do. But, as I said, that was -- my thing was that I did not want to mutilate my children, because I have seen people do it. I have -- [have a friend who has -- was not in camp, whole family survived, and she mutilated her children. For no reaso -- you know, it's for no reason at all. She has a tremendous amount of hatred towards the church, towards the people. You know, you -- you can't -- not everybody is responsible, you can't make everybody responsible. Sure, they -- it -- it didn't need to be, but there was nobody to stop it.

Q: Do you feel hatred some of the time?

A: No, really not, really not. It's a -- whom do you hate? You hate a phantom. You can't -- you can only hate when you hate one person, okay? So you're not really -- you can't -- you can't make everybody responsible, though they were, the great majority of the people were, okay, but that -- that's the way it was. That's the way it is, right? We haven't learned. And of course, because it was only Jews, nobody was really interested in helping. I mean, we thought America

was the great -- the -- the greatest th-thing God every created, right? But as -- as -- as you go along, there is -- there is -- it's still better than any other place. So, that's it, right?

Q: So, now when you leave Auschwitz, can you tell me -- you started to tell me before --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- also tell me what happened at this point with Marianne. She did not go with you?

A: She -- Marianne stayed in Auschwitz, in poy -- in Birkenau, okay. She was liberated by the Russians in January, we were liberated in May. I think she went to -- she went in the [indecipherable] I believe it was, she told me, to Romania. And from there she went -- I don't know, to Vienna, I believe, or to Italy. I really don't know because her sister was in Italy, her brother was in Venezuela.. So I -- that -- I -- I really don't know. I found my -- I -- I knew a sold -- an American soldier, Jewish and he went to Vienna, and I ask him to go to the Jewish agency to find if my -- if -- who is alive and who isn't. And I gave him the names and among them he found Mariani. And she wa -- at -- in the time I think -- I believe she was a nurse in the Jewish hospital there. And so he told her that I was alive in Linz. I could not come down because the ru -- there was the Russian zone in between. And finally I borrowed an I.D. card and I took the train, and | ba -- and I got through. And the Russian -- you know, the Russians were coming into the play -- the train and look for I.D. cards. The als -- the other danger was if they liked you they can take you out. So here we were, okay. So we went -- so I went and I went with another girl, and I get to the street where Mariani lives, it's about 11 o'clock at night. And of course after a certain time the doors are locked, and we -- you know, you have to ring for the super. And here I hear footsteps on the cobblestones. There were two Russian soldiers coming down. And this was an encounter you really weren't looking for. So -- but finally what happened was I had pennies, and I so -- and I saw -- and I saw a light in the window. And I knew what floor she was on, but I

didn't know if it was her window. And suddenly she passed her window, so here I am throwing the pennies, and she finally realized, you know? So she came -- she opened up and she came down just before they -- before those Russian came up, and I -- that's how I me -- that's how I met and saw Mariani the first time.

Q: Was it a very nice reunion?

A: Yes, yes, that was a good reunion. And th-this other lady who used to live with us, she survived, too. And her mother survived, that was interesting. And they were -- she -- at that time she must have been in -- in her 80's and the husband was in her 90's. The father, I think, died.

But the mother survived. [indecipherable]

Q: What's -- what's her name?

A: Biamgauten.

Q: And -- and when was she with you?

A: She -- when we lived in the -- in the storefront, so --

Q: Now when you -- so take me back to when you leave --

A: Auschwitz?

Q: -- Auschwitz. When was this and tell me about this next journey.

A: In October "44, we were transported by cattle car, and it was up nor -- up in -- in northern Germany, it was -- so they -- they pitched three circus tents, huge, enormous.

Q: All right, just to continue where we left off, you were telling me about tents that were put up.

A: Yes, the tents.

Q: And -- and where, exactly, is this?

A: I don't know.

End of Tape Three, Side A

Beginning Tape Three, Side B

Q: This is a continuation of a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Ann Green. This is tape number three, side B. Okay, continue -- you were telling me about a storm.

A: It was a terrible storm, and the tent we were in collapsed. Now, we were just sitting on straw, I don't know how many hundreds of people in one tent, and it was terrible. And from there they moved us to Bergen-Belsen for a very short time. I couldn't tell you if it was a week, or two weeks, but our transport went to Salzwedel into an ammunition factory. And there -- that was from October to May, when I was liberated.

Q: Now at Bergen-Belsen, were you telling me something about Anne Frank while you were there?

A: Lan -- I heard only recently that she was on a transport where they housed them in huge tents before getting to Bergen-Belsen, so I said that that must have been the transport. In Bergen- Belsen, be -- that was in the very, very beginning of Bergen-Belsen, I tho -- because there were just barracks there, we didn't do anything, we just sat around all day long, and -- until we were transported to the factory. And there we worked two weeks day shift, two weeks night shift. As soon as the body got accustomed to -- to day shift, we went to night shift and the other way around. But there we were only maybe eight or 10 girls in one room, and we had a -- was wintertime and we had a stove there which came in very handy because we used to wet the seams of our clothes and put them up against -- on the stove pipe, to steam it, to kill the fl -- to kill the lice.

Q: That seems very resourceful.

A: Well, that's all we had. That and DDT. And -- a-and we worked. We left in the morning and came hom -- and then that was really almost if you can call it luxury because we had a purp --

you know, we were indoors. The only scary part there was apparently they knew that that was in effec -- there were als -- there were also French prisoner of war camps around there, and they didn't bomb us, but we -- th -- we mo -- they moved us into the -- into the place where they kept the ammunition. It wasn't very secure feeling, it wasn't, because we -- we were right there, the whole thi -- if they would have ever bombed it, the whole thing would have gone up. But they never bombed there. They flew over, but they never bombed.

Q: What did you know about the war at this stage?

A: We -- we -- we didn't -- we knew it wasn't going well because there was one elderly gentleman there who befriended one of the prisoners who was -- she converted from ju -- to Christianity and he was married to a Christian. And he contacted her husband and he was the person who would always tell us, you know, it's going good, or it's going bad, or whatever. So there we had some semblance of knowledge at the time. But unfortunately somebody reported him, and I don't -- he -- they jailed him. I hope he -- you know, he was a real nice old gentleman.

Q: Did you remain optimistic during this time?

A: We were always optimistic. We had to be. If you wanted -- if you -- you tried to survive, and the only way to survive was to be optimistic that some -- something will -- Americans are wi -- go -- Americans are going to come, they're going to -- the war is going to be over.

Q: Was it only other women working at this camp?

A: Yeah, just women. Was just -- yeah, there were just women. We had the -- the German supervisors, you know, people who used to work in the factory before were supervisors, and of course we had the guards.

Q: How did they treat you?

A: There was no friction there. There was no friction there. I mean, I was told once -- I had -- I mu -- I don't know what I did, I -- probably I let that thing run, and she told me that if I don't -- if I keep it up I won't be around long, so I was very careful.

Q: But on a daily basis --

A: Yeah, no, th -- on the daily, you worked, you -- no, you worked you -- you had your -- your lunch period, your -- you -- you were treated like a moral -- I mean, you were a prisoner, but you were treated like a worker. So --

Q: And that's considered a slave labor camp, right?

A: Yeah, that was slave la -- I mean, it was all slave labor.

Q: Do you receive reparations for having worked there? Or do you receive, you know, restitution money?

A: No, I don't get -- no, I don't get anything from Germany, I have a -- I have a disability from Austria and I get Social Security from Austria because I -- because you know, I -- I never -- I never worked legally in Austria but they give me Social Security. What is it, I think 300 some odd dollars a month. And -- and when th -- when they first started to give ref -- reparation, I was going to send it back, I was so in -- I was so -- really, I was so upset, I said I'm sending it ma -- I think it was 500 dollars or something, and I was going to go and send it back and they said, you stupid?

Q: Now -- excuse me, I was reading -- I was reading in a survivor's memoir about Salzwedel --

A: Mm-hm.

Q: -- and read an interesting story about the water faucets in the camp, and I was wondering if you knew anything about this. She wrote that the water faucets in the camp were wired with bombs. Had you ever heard anything about that?

A: No, no, that I have never -- I mean saw -- Salzwedel was a -- I mean, was luxury. We -- I mean, we worked. We were -- the f -- the food wasn't food, but it was wi -- compared to -- to -- to Auschwitz it was, you know. We were laborers, so they knew enough to give wa -- you know, we -- it was only soup also, but it was more a -- you know, we were laborers, they needed us at that point.

Q: Was it difficult work?

A: No, I mean, I just monitored a machine. The machine did the work. You know, all they did was make the -- they stamped the hulls. Some people probably had more, you know, heavier work, I was just lucky to get this machine.

Q: And was it -- you said it was only women, was it also only Jewish women in this camp?

A: I think so. I think so. Because when we would -- u-unless they came from other places too, I really couldn't say that for -- the people I knew, you know, only the supervisors were old wor -- you know, the workforce from before.

Q: And what about routines like there was also appelle and roll call at this camp?

A: I don't think so. I th -- no, we just came home, washed, went for food, went back. No, I don't think so. I don't believe so. Maybe they counted as we lined up for food, I really don't remember, but I really don't think so. I cannot remember having to get up and standing outside.

Q: And now we get to the time of liberation, so tell me a little bit more. I know you -- also you already mentioned people, the women, flooding the gate. But what else are your impressions?

A: What do you mean flooding the gate?

Q: Oh --

A: Oh yeah, going out

Q: Rushing to the gate. What other first impressions do you have?

A: My first impression was that we had -- all the guards from the other camps came to our camp.

They tore off their insignia and they also had prisoners come from other camps, they brought them down, but they themselves tore off all their insignia on their clothes. And I have to say Americans treated them with kid gloves. I -- it was absolutely revolting to watch. Revolting ina way, in another way admirable, because the only -- wa -- the only incident happened, the cook, who was a German soldier, ran, and the guy in the turret shot him, and they let him lay there for I don't know how many, a couple of days. But that was the only -- how shall I -- incident which was -- that you say was any type of -- can't say cruel, what happened. But the -- the -- the camp commander, everybody was treated, it was just absolutely disgusting to watch. I mean, I didn't me -- y-you know, they weren't always -- they were -- weren't even treated as -- as -- as pris -- as prisoners or anything. They were just handled with such -- almost they were guests. It was disgusting to watch.

Q: And did they stay there, or did they just walk free, and walk out?

A: No, no, no, no. They -- they -- they were -- but they were -- it -- it was done in such a laissez- faire way, you know? And of course there were someth -- you know, were peop -- jewi -- some of the prisoners who were in the office in work, they spoke for them and told them that they were marvelous and whatever else. I mean, we weren't mistreated, don't misunderstand. I mean, it was -- it was total luxury compared to before. So that -- that was interesting and I wa -- something very funny happened. As the troops were going through, I said it was so American. I mean, they were young kids, you know, it was th -- practic -- the end of the war, and they must have got -- found food in farms or wherever, whatever they, you know, collected. They u -- they threw eggs, cartons of eggs at us, we should catch them. As the trucks were -- they were going very slow, I have to say, but as they were moving through, they were throwing eggs.

Q: Did a lot of eggs break?

A: All of them broke. And then they fed us and they made chicken soup with rice. And it was more fat than soup, and I would say 99 percent the people got jaundiced.

Q: How about you, how was your health?

A: And I didn't, because I didn't eat. I was -- I was so sick that I -- I ca -- I mean, I was afraid to take anything in. So you walked around, everybody was yellow. It was -- it was funny. It wasn't funny, but it was funny. And -- and it took me awhile to go out. I waited until you -- you know the -- the flow stopped, and then I went out, but I had no place to go.

Q: And when you went out, that was the last time you saw that place, you just left? Or did you come back?

A: I -- you know, no, they transported us onto an Air Force base, and we stayed there for a couple of -- you know, time is very difficult to remember. I don't know if it was weeks or months. And th -- and I was with Hungarian girls there, and -- and we went to ha -- we go -- we started to work at the British officer's home, keeping house [indecipherable]

Q: Where wa -- where was this?

A: In Hanover. And from there I tried to get back to Vienna. You know, wh-when everything calmed. And one day there was a bus going, and I took it. And I ended up in Linz and I couldn't go any further because there was the Russian zone in between. So I looked for a place to stay. I was with two other girls. And I found a -- I found a room, and I found it -- and I looked for a job.

And I worked for the civil censor, which -- there was a -- the amer -- an -- a unit there which was all -- well, most of them -- most of them spoke German, and a lot of them were -- and one of them were Jewish. And I ca -- I got the job there, and I was able to rent a -- the room, and I met a young man and a bi -- he -- and he said to me, what are you going to do here, you know. And I

had a cou -- I have a cou -- I have a cousin in Israel and he asked me if I wanted to come live on a kibbutz. And that's the one thing I could not -- I couldn't even imagine, living with people.

That's the one thing I ga -- you know, I -- I just couldn't -- so I didn't want to go. And he said to me, what are you going to do here, you know. So I said, well I don't know, you know, I will see.

Go back [indecipherable] eventually I get back to Vienna. And he says, would you really want to live here? So I said, I don't know. So anyway, he wrote to his brother. I remembered my mother -- my father's sister, her husband came here, and I remembered the address of the brother he went to stay with in Brooklyn, Stillwell Avenue, and I knew the -- I remembered the number, don't ask me today. I remembered the number, and I knew it was Stillwell Avenue and it wa -- I knew it was Brooklyn, and I knew he had a plumbing business. So anyway, this friend of mine, Paul, wrote to his brother, and his brother put an ad in the paper to look for him -- in Aufbau, the -- the German refugee paper. And he, in turn, looked for my -- for my uncle, and he in turn got in touch with my mother's uncle who eventual -- whose -- whose in-laws eventually sent me a visa, and I came here on the second boat crossing the -- crossing over.

Q: Now when was that and where did you leave from?

A: I left from Hamburg. I -- what happened is I worked, okay, and I went on vacation. And I got a call from my landlady that the American embassy is looking for me. And so I went -- got on the train and I went back and I contacted them, and they wanted -- you know, they told me that I have a visa to go, and they made an appointment for an examination, and I was lucky because I had silicosis, which I didn't know. Wek -- you know, I didn't know, I was -- I gained wek -- from 70 pounds I went to 150 so I was roly-poly, you know. I didn't look sick, nothing hurt me. S -- and I remember the nurse at the embassy, she listened and she listened and she listened, and --

but eventually she let me go. S -- and I only found out when I came to the States, almost a year later, that that's what it was.

Q: How did you find out a year later?

A: How? I was treated for -- they treated -- a year later they treated me for TB. And sputum, everything was negative, but I was [indecipherable] they didn't know, took x-rays, they see spots. So I stayed in bed. First I stayed in bed for six months, that didn't help because I was do -- what happened was, when I weighed -- I mean, I came here, I weighed 150 pounds, you know? I had a friend, a school friend from Vienna, and she was beautiful, she was tall, slim, blonde. She looked at me and she said, nobody in America walks around like this. So what'd she do, she takes me to a European doctor, a woman. And she gave me ups, downs, ons and overs. Pills. I went down to 113 pounds, and I started coughing. So I had to -- I went to the doctor, so they took an x -- they -- no, he sent -- so I went to the doctor and he said I have to go to a rest home. And he sent me up someplace close to Monticello and I was -- I was the -- I was the youngest person there, everybody was recuperating, it was -- it -- it was from the workman's circle. I didn't belong. Why -- how I got there, I don't know. And the nurse there said everybody should have an x-ray. So I said, okay, I have an x-ray, I -- I had nothing to do. Took an x-ray. She brings it -- Liberty was a big TV -- TB center. And the doctor looks at it, and he said, put her into the pavilion. They had a t -- a TB pavilion up there. And I picked up the phone and I called my husband, I said, can you pick me up? He said, no I can't, so I said, I'm taking the bus. And I took the bus back to New York, and I went to my doctor and of course they treated me for TB. Then, at the time, streptomycin came out, which was a very dangerous drug, and I -- they gave it to me, that was four injections a day for a week, three, two, and then one for two weeks. I got that three times. Nothing changed. So, after six months, finally they decided I should go see somebody

else. And the woman worked for the city, and she says she wo -- she happened to be Viennese, and she said to me, get up, lead a normal life, and wait. I did that. And then I went to the Vincent Aster diagnostic center. I don't know if this still exists, but you -- you -- it's -- you pay, but you get a specialist assigned to you, and I was lucky, and the man wrote his thesis on silicosis. And he ada -- he diagnosed me and that was it, and he said, so and so many percentage die, somebody -- some recover somewhat and some recover. And that was it. And I thought -- and then -- and that was it.

Q: This was sort of a major health issue that kept following you around after the war.

A: In fact, in fact, somebody started a class action suit. I didn't even know about it. One day I got a letter that whoever produced the drug, I can't remember any more, I will get a check because -- I didn't do anything. They must have -- I don't know how it works, but apparently every drugstore knew at the time what drugs were administered to whom, so they found out that I got it too. I think that -- I think it was a thousand dollars or something, at the time it was like I didn't know where it came from. But that was it.

Q: Now, to go back, I mean how was your health in the immediate aftermath of being liberated?

Were you able to rebound fairly quickly?

A: Yeah, I rebound, I rebound, and I was careful, of course, right away what I was eating, and I probably went to a doctor or something. That I can't even remember any more. But apparently it went away, and I started to gain weight and I went back up to 150 pounds.

Q: And at liberation, can you describe some part of the feeling, and also the feeling of others around you. Were people emotional? Did you feel emotional?

A: Yes, but you know what? He -- it was so -- something so totally -- you couldn't comprehend it. You know, everybody was pushing out, and I was in the middle, and -- and I just stopped -- I

didn't wa -- you know, I just stood there and let everybody else pass me because I was so overwhelmed. Ye -- it -- it was something you were waiting for, and when it happened, you were like stunned. It was something you couldn't -- I -- I don't know why I wanted to go back. It was just a reaction I had. Probably security. Because here I was in no man's land. I mean, I -- I didn't know the town.

Q: I read in this other survivor's memoir that in the town there were department stores, and that some of the prisoners -- the women from Salzwedel, from the camp, were going into the town.

A: Yeah, yeah --

Q: Did you see this, or part of --

A: -- I saw that, I saw re -- soldiers doing it. I saw people doing it. It's not my -- it's --

Q: Did you go as well?

A: No. It's not my temperament, you know? I ti -- somehow or other I -- I -- it's not me. Yeah, I saw that, yeah. This is the like the gurd -- th-the -- the -- the blockoma who knocked the kid off the bike for no reason at all, because what's she going to do with the bike? You know? I mean, what that little kid ever do to her? So, I mean -- if she would have [indecipherable] confront somebody, adult or something, you know, but to knock the -- I mean, she literally knocked the -- Isee her in front of me. And of course I had no use for her to start off. You know, so -- no, that's -- yeah, that's the -- the -- I -- I would watch the soldiers go into apartments. You know, once we walked on the street, and I would watch, but th -- I'd -- how shall I say? I had no n -- I shouldn't say I had no need to -- what -- wha -- what could you get? I mean, you go in, what do you take?

You know, I mean, why? So I -- I -- th-that wasn't my thing. I mean, I wa -- it just -- I -- I couldn't do it.

Q: Were you talking with the American soldiers who liberated you?

A: No, because they weren't -- th-they were stri -- it was strictly -- there was a war going. I mean, they was going to the -- to take the next tow -- town.

Q: So they kept moving?

A: They kept moving. I mean, there was some left behind, okay, who -- the administration, but -- but that was it, you know. And as I said, basically how -- how we got to Hanover I cannot remember. That -- the reason, how they moved us, all I know is we got there.

Q: And is there a point where you really felt finally free? Was that still at Salzwedel, or a -- later?

A: You -- you feel free, but you have no place to g -- you don't belong, you have no place to go.

What next? You were still -- you lived -- you still lived with 20 girls. You still -- your food was still given to you. There wasn't -- really no normalcy. I mean, to -- you know, and you didn't know when it's going to be and how it's going to be. To me it was strictly that I was trying to get back to Vienna. I couldn't, so I had to start in Linz, where I was.

Q: When's the first time you felt a more normal life again?

A: When I had a -- when I had a room. When I had a room to myself. And it -- you know, and they -- si -- it -- si -- since there was occupation, it was still not -- it was a sti -- it still wasn't normal.

Q: That's in Linz?

A: I'm sorry?

Q: Is that when you --

A: In Linz?

Q: -- you were --

A: Yeah, that was in Linz, because our association mostly was with -- it wasn't with the population because if you li -- if you believe it or not, you were still the Jew. And, you know, the two other girls, one Jewish, I don't know where I picked them up, but they weren't Jewish. But we had nothing in -- you had nothing in common with the population.

Q: Did you still feel some anti-Semitism at that time there?

A: Oh yeah, of course. You go back you feel it now, you have it now. You know, I mean, the Austrians are -- they were victims, they di -- were not -- believe me, I mean, they were definitely victims. So -- I mean, this is why when I covered my number, | said I'm not going to give her the satisfaction, no way.

Q: So now you're in Linz for awhile, and then you were telling me about -- it's the person there who contacted --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- the person in the USS. --

A: Right.

Q: -- your -- your family member. But tell me about the rest of your journey within Austria from Linz. Cause you went back to Vienna, is that right? When was that?

A: Yeah, we went -- but I -- I never settled there. You know, I visited Mariani, I stayed with Mariani and I went back to Linz. And she was in -- she was in Vienna. I mean, she weve -- she from -- I think from Auschwitz, she'd been to Romania, or Bulgaria, I don't remember any more.

And she came back, but I never went back to ve -- I mean, I went back, but I was ra -- I had a room. I rented a room, I worked. And -- and I -- a-and really didn't know at -- I really had no -- no plans, I -- I wasn't really thinking. I-It was like empty. And -- and that's it.

Q: Did you look for family in Vienna?

A: Oh yeah, that -- no, that -- you know, that was already -- that was already in 1945, okay, so definitely I mean, but nobody came back. In fact, my -- my father's two uncles -- two brothers weren't even back then, and they came back much, much later. In fact, they came back -- I mean, I was here already and I -- I found out from my cousin in Israel that her father and his brother came back, but they were, at that point, they w -- I -- you know, it's so very difficult, when you're young, everybody at a certain age is old. So I have no reference to think how old they were. So --

Q: When you visited Vienna like this, did you have any desire to return there and live there?

A: If the family would have been there, or if I would have seen some reason to go there. But at that point I already -- End of Tape Three, Side B

Beginning Tape Four, Side A

Q: This is a continuation of a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Ann Green. This is tape number four, side A. So you were saying about the idea of perhaps living in Vienna again after the war?

A: Ina -- I don't know if I entertained the thou -- the thought. The problem was to -- to -- to establish yourself, to have a -- I -- I was not -- I had no schooling, I had no -- I -- I trained as a millinery, okay, for a-awhile. At one point when my father was thinking of mic -- leaving, there was a woman, she gave courses in mil -- from -- in millinery, so I was sent there and I did that.

So f-for me t -- t -- job, you know, job-wise was a -- something I really didn't -- at the -- at the time I don't think I -- I was th -- I was -- was thinking anything through or planning. You know, you never planned for so many years, so planning was not something you easily did. You just like, wherever you fell, that's where -- wherever you landed.

Q: I know we've talked about your emotions throughout this period. What were your emotions like when you realized your family members weren't coming back to Vienna?

A: I was happy to see Mariani, but that was about -- I had no aba -- and gi -- at that poin -- you know, I think the camp does something to you. And I had really no -- you know, you lived from - - from minute to minute, from hour to hour, so you were really not -- there was not this much emotion, you know, there was no -- you -- I mean, you did not -- you -- you -- you -- it wasn't a psychologically normal situation. And regardless of whatever, I suppose, subconsciously that's what happened.

Q: So would you say you, unfortunately you weren't very surprised that your family members didn't return to Vienna? Was that a shock for you at that time?

A: Not a sho -- it -- it -- it was a -- it was -- it's not a shock, you can't say it's a shock, because it was a -- a way of -- i-it was an ex -- i-it wasn't an expectation. You had to hope that they would return, but it was hope against hope, because that was not the situation.

Q: It's like you had to prepare yourself for so long that -- mentally that they wouldn't return.

A: Right, because I mean nobody knew that you're going to survive. You hoped you would survive. The last thing was we -- everybody will come back, and that's it. But when -- when you realize the full -- the -- the com -- you know, what happened, you don't -- you -- you realize that that's -- that's par -- that was part of the situation and that's it.

Q: When did it sink in for you actually, the magnitude of what had happened during the Holocaust?

A: You -- when the realization, wh -- when you -- when you saw the whole thing, when you realized the whole thing. And of course part you knew, I mean when you saw the -- the -- the -- the s --

Q: Crematorium?

A: -- the crematorium, when you saw the smoke and the smell, you knew what was going on, so you were almost prepared for it, because it was -- you know, you -- there were people even in camp that yo -- the underground worked. And this one was working here, and this one was working there, and people were telling stories, so you had -- and -- and -- I see -- when you see the smoke and the smell, you -- you real -- you realize. And then finally you also realize that when you go into the shower that you never know if you're going to come out or not. So that was a -- you walk in, okay, you don't know what is coming. So this is a situation which is -- which nobody can comprehend.

Q: Did you think very much about death during those days?

A: No, because we -- be -- you gonna s -- you gonna survive because if you don't feel that you're going to survive, you're not -- you know, it's -- you can't -- you just wouldn't be able to function. I mean, you walked the -- you -- you had -- you had no control. You walked in. Is the water going to come, or is the gas going to come? Everybody knew at that point because we were there long enough to know. You walked out, you were lucky. Next time, that's it. So --

Q: Did you --

A: -- I wonder what the kids are going to say when they hear this.

Q: I think it's -- it's -- it's good that you've been very open. I really appreciate that, and -- and I'm sure your family will, too. But I wanted to ask you, did you ever re-establish contact with the people -- any of the people who hid you in Vienna?

A: I tried to. We -- when we went back -- no, I was in contact with the -- with the friends of my father, I was in contact [indecipherable] for awhile. I'm a terrible, terrible -- I hate to write letters. I think -- am I analyzing myself? It -- it's something -- a letter to me is a permanent thing, and I just hate to write letters. I really do. I'm a talker, I'm on the phone, I hate to write letters.

Q: You don't like the permanency of the letter?

A: I don't know what I don't like. I just don't like writing letters, and I --

Q: And it doesn't matter what language? It's not just that -- writing in English or a second language --

A: No, no, no, has nothing to do with this, absolutely nothing to do with it. I -- I can labor over a -- a sympathy card, a get well card. Okay? I mean, it's the most idiotic thing there is.

Q: So -- so you did have some kind of contact, but not -- not --

A: Oh yes, I had contact with them, and I send them things and all. And then when we went to Austria, we stopped where the do -- where their daughter lived, and I rang her bell. It was lunchtime, but she never answered, so I never saw her.

Q: Whose daughter?

A: The friends of my parents. And th-they had a daughter who was married, and sum -- Summering, that's a resort, and she lived there and she had a little store, I can't remember what it was. And I know she was married there and she divorced, and sh -- but she stayed there, and I ca -- I found out where she lives, and I ca -- went to the house and I rang her bell and she never answered the bell, so I walked away.

Q: And did you ever hear of, or have contact with M-Ms. Pukas, who hid you?

A: No, with her I had no contact at all, none at all. When we went back, we stay -- we stayed in a hotel around the corner where I was -- where we were hiding. In fact, the window looked down on the place, but it -- they tore everything down, so it didn't look familiar at all. It -- it was the weirdest, weirdest -- and so then I wa -- when I realized where I was, I went there, and those -- I tried to see the people who lived in the -- in the building next door -- it was an apartment house next door, out of bricks. And nobody was home, so I couldn't speak to anybody. But --

Q: So then we get to the point where you get the news that you can go to the ULS..

A: Right.

Q: Tell me a little bit more about the journey and arriving.

A: Well, the journey was we was se -- I was sent to a camp in Munich, a displaced person camp where they gathered all the people.

Q: Do you know the name of that?

A: No. And there I made friend with a couple of people, and we got on the boat. And we came here --

Q: Do you know when you left? When you left -- you left Hamburg, right?

A: I left Hamburg in -- it was in May. It took 10 days to come here. I think I came here on the 20 -- no, I got my visa on the 27". It was a -- I still ca -- I came here in May. I came here in May, so the trip was 10 days. I arrived, and we arrived like this -- we came on a merchant marine. And it was six o'clock in the morning, the sun was up, and ev -- there were a thousand people on that boat, and everybody went to the side of the Statue of Liberty. How we didn't tilt is a miracle.

And we had a very interesting a -- episode on the pl -- on the -- on the boat coming here. They also transported Germans, repa -- repatriates who were American citizens and decided to go back in the war to Germany. Well, one of the men appa -- for whatever reason, jumped off into the propeller. And -- course he must have been smithereens. But we had to circle, I don't know for how many days, I think it was. Was a -- a -- the law that you -- they cannot leave. So I don't know how m -- it was -- I think it was either two days, or -- it was a long time, I mean, that they had to circle. Of course they couldn't find him. And I wonder what he did that he got scared because we were almost here. And then I arrived, and I got off the boat, and my two -- my mother's uncle, and my uncle missed me, so -- so they put me on a -- on a bus, and they brought me to the Ansonia on Broadway and what, 74"? The old Ansonia, I think it is a -- it is like a -- an apartment building now, it used to be a hotel. And I wait -- th-they put me the end. I had -- they contacted my uncle because they were looking for me, and so they told them that I was at the Ansonia. And you know, by the time they came from the pier, I decided I wasn't going to hang around there, I was going to go look at the neighborhood. I mean, I came from a big city, I wasn't -- [mean, I wasn't a country bumpkin. And I'm -- walk out, and I'm going down to the river,

going toward west end. Suddenly this lady, screaming and frantic. I mean, she was responsible for me.

Q: And how old were you at this time?

A: I was 20. She is -- you know, she's where are you going, you know, I [indecipherable] you can't do that. And she held me, and she wasn't going to let go of me for the rest -- and then finally my uncle and my mother's uncle came and picked me up. That was my entry to the United States.

Q: It does seem you have an adventurous spirit.

A: Ah, yeah, I suppose so. You know, I was there, there was nothing for me to do. I wa -- Ido the -- I did spe -- I spoke --

Q: Oh, you already knew English?

A: Yes, I knew English, but I mean, not to the -- to the point that I could converse, you know? I mean, I knew enough to say that I -- don't worry about me, you know, I come from a big city.

But it was -- I mean, it was funny to me, it wasn't funny to he -- and --

Q: Was -- was the whole journey coming to the U.S. exciting, or was there, you know --

A: It was -- it was -- we -- my -- to us, I -- | mean, it was adventure. Everybody was seasick, but a few people were -- fe -- few people, among me, and we weren't, so we ate. Th-That ship carried enough butter for a 10 day journey. They -- the third day they ran out, because you know, that was something we did not ha -- people didn't have. So I was introduced to peanut butter, I never knew what peanut butter was. So -- yeah. Th-The journey over here was adventure.

Q: And tell me, how was, just in general, broadly speaking, how was the adjustment living here as a new immigrant, learning more of the language, going to school --

A: 1 -- I stayed with my mother's uncle, and I -- I worked -- I worked where they made -- they don't do that any more -- they made things for curling your hair out of leather, you -- there was a metal covered with leather and you rolled your hair. And we -- I did that, and I got a Social Security card, okay? And there was a number, so I tore it up because I wasn't going to be another number. No clue what it was. Just shake your head.

Q: Well --

A: What?

Q: No, it's very interesting. I mean, you -- obviously, and that's something I wanted to ask you, you know, how do you feel that the war time and the Holocaust affected you in the future. I mean, there can be countless ways, but are there some things that you could point to?

A: No, Ic -- [really can't. I ca -- I can't judge that. I can't judge that. You can judge it.

Q: Well, there are things that you're obviously aware of. For instance, that story to me says that -

A: Youre stupid --

Q: -- because of your -- no, because of your experience at Auschwitz, you didn't want to be considered a number.

A: Un-Until today, I can't remember my Social Security number. I don't want to. Okay? I t --

Q: Are there other obvious things like that, that you see as sort of the impact of what you went through?

A: Not rea -- no, not really. I mean, this is -- this is dumb. I -- it's almost like a dumb revolt, okay? Me -- I had no clue what the Social Security number is, I just -- I don't know, what do I need it for? And that was it. That's when I told the lady that it's a free country, I can -- I can put my numb -- my name down anyplace. So --

Q: Did you feel free once you got to the U.S.?

A: Yeah, yeah. Beca -- that -- you know, there was no -- y-you also have to remember I -- you -- Thad no -- he -- I wasn't a real teenager because I always lived with fear. Not -- not visible, but it was always there. You can't do this, you can't do that. You have to be careful. So -- and then of course once you were marked, that was a whole different story, so you really couldn't. And for all intents and purposes I was a normal teenager. And so probably that had something -- so when I came here, I was free. And there were some Viennese people living across the street from my mother's uncle and she was just a few years -- a year or two older than me, and she took me under her wing, and we -- you know, she knew people and we were just like other teenagers. We weren't teenagers any more at this point. She took me to Jones Beach. We went to Coney Island.

I was an hour late in coming home and my uncle was standing on the street with his pocket watch, you know. And I said to him -- and he was worried about me, and I said, don't worry, I come from a big city. So I really -- I mean, once I was here, I felt a -- you know, I -- I had people to fall back on, and then I started -- I started to work as a trimmer in a -- in a millinery factory because I had a friend whose parents had a factory -- a hat factory in Vienna, and they were working there, so they got me a job there and I worked there. And one day the boss came and he said to me to do -- to trim two hats. It was already after hour, we had to wait for her husband because he had to finish some job to go out. Anyway, he asked me to do two hats, and she helped me -- for to go to the post office for orders. Next thing you know, the sto -- the s -- the shops -- th -- not the shop steward, whoever is in charge of -- okay, came in and told me that I did this, that and the other, and I can't do that. And I looked at her and I said, "Well why not, you know, I wasn't doing anything," I said. "He asked me because he wanted it to go out before the post office closes." So she said to me, "That was not of your business." And from that point on, the

union and I don't work together. Because I co -- I -- I couldn't understand the logic of that whole thing. I mean, the order doesn't go out, you don't get -- don't get work, you sit there and twiddle your thumbs. But that was the law.

Q: How did you meet your husband? I think there's a -- a -- a charming story, right?

A: Yeah. The couple -- you know, the people I'm tal -- telling you about, the mother and father and her -- their daughter. They had a son who was married here and had family here, and I went - - I was going to Stuyvesant, okay, and I got lost in the crossover to take the west side train. And there was a man coming down and I ask him how do I get to the west side train? And he had a very heavy Irish accent, and as he is talking to me he is walking, and I had no clue what he was saying. And Jack came along, and he addressed me in German and he said where I wanted to go.

So I told him where I wanted to go, so he starts telling me that his family, his grandfather -- oh, his father came from a little town outside of Austria, close to the airport in Vienna. How do you meet somebody from that little tow -- from that little village, okay? It got to be that man, okay? It had to be the -- the brother of this woman. So -- so he want to -- a-and another thing, you have to remember, Americans couldn't do no wrong. Th -- and you'd spoi -- and also you talked to everybody. I me -- because that is -- was the only way of -- there was no newspaper, there -- communication. Did you -- you were there, did you ever meet somebody, so -- so he asked me if I wanted to go for ice cream, so I said sure. And a -- a -- continuously I'm thinking that this is this -- this im -- person, you know, because he was telling me about the town and the temple and the this and the that. I said, ho-how would you meet any other person who comes from that little tow -- it's like a pin in a haystack in New York, okay? And I never gave it a thought that the guy was living in Queens. But that doesn't mean anything, because he could be in Manhattan. So that's how I met my husband.

Q: And how long before you were married?

A: December, six months.

Q: That's nice.

A: So, six months and 60 some odd years.

Q: So, I have just a few more questions and I think we're -- we're almost done. So, I guess what I was trying to ask before -- I -- I -- I'll say it a slightly different way, see if something else might come to mind. Just in terms of what the long term impact that you feel you can see of the war and the Holocaust on your -- perhaps on your decisions -- for instance, you were telling me about consciously not wanting to dwell on things too much with your children. That was a conscious decision --

A: Right.

Q: -- of yours. Are there other things, either in terms of, you know, your career, work, f -- religion, other family issues. Things that you feel that the Holocaust really affected you, and affected your decisions in those areas of your life?

A: I th -- I think the only -- the only thing which affected me, I would say -- but I would have never, ever changed my religion that -- although the question -- so maybe, you know, more -- being more active, rather than a -- than m-more -- you know, than just saying yes, I'm Jewish and I'm going for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. But --

Q: That because of what you went through you feel more connected?

A: No, I felt that the children should -- not I. I had -- I had my -- I -- I was -- my Jewish education so to say, or exposure. But no, for the children to know, and as I said, when they were old enough, they -- they learned, and that was -- always was important to me. But I didn't -- I -- they wa -- they -- I did not want them to -- to feel responsible for -- for what I -- what -- what ma

-- what I went through, or what I experienced. And as I said, I did not -- De-Debbie went to Israel, I remember for -- for -- after high school graduation, and there was one week where they did nothing. They went -- I don't know if they went on a kibbutz or whatever, it was all Holocaust. And she called, and says, "I'm Holocausted out." So I said, "I don't blame you." You know, tha -- it was too much, and she was already 18. So -- no, I really don't -- I can't really say that -- not momentarily anyway, that -- I would have to think about it.

Q: And the idea that you had to live with a certain type of fear or anxiety for so much of your youth, when did you feel that you really broke free of -- of that -- of that situation?

A: Th -- I -- I -- I si -- there is still a c -- a certain respect for auth-authority. I never forget I was hailed down by a policeman once who needed to go someplace and wanted me to drive him. And when he -- that -- I was here very short -- I mean, at -- at -- at -- was -- no, I d -- I didn't dri -- I didn't drive for -- was -- didn't drive for a very long time. And he flagged me down, I was in absolute -- I broke out in a sweat. And I mean, | ne -- I didn't do anything, you know, it -- he just said for me to [indecipherable], just the uniform in itself. But an -- I hav -- I don't have that now.

When they stop me now it's for a ticket.

Q: And I believe your husband was not a survivor, he was born in the U.S.?

A: No, he was born here, right.

Q: And if you would just tell me, just briefly about your friendship with Marianne? It has continued in this country, right?

A: Yes, yeah, right. I mean, at the moment if it wouldn't be for us, she wouldn't have anybody.

Because for some [indecipherable] whatever reason, she has a second cousin who has absolutely no interest or whatever, in her. And it's sad, you know?

Q: How long have the two of you been friends now?

A: Well, since I'm -- I'm -- I'm 80 now, and I was 13 then. [indecipherable] math? Right? That says -- 65 years?

Q: And when you spend time with her, do you -- the two of you reminisce about this time?

A: We -- we can tal -- when we -- it is always that it is a miracle that we can -- we will -- we will always only pick the fun, okay? I mean, we bo -- about sad, we don't have anything to talk about. I mean, we laugh about things, okay, which happened, which come up. Sometimes they're revelant to something and I will say, do you remember? You know? So it is not -- maybe there's something wrong with us.

Q: Maybe that's the way you've, you know, been strong and -- and held things together for so long, you know?

A: 1-- I -- I don't know, I mean you can't -- you can't say it is because I was young, because Mariani was older than I am. And then you meet people who were -- who just can't let go, for whatever reason. But life goes on.

Q: But when the two of you get together, you do reminisce, but often about the --

A: No, no the -- I mean, you know, I me -- I mean there were times I used to call her every single day when she was still -- when she was not -- when she could see it, and she was alone, so I would call her every single day, and talk to her, you know? And here and there we would, you know, laugh about something. I mean, she will tell -- she will tell you when she bought me my first high heeled shoes and I couldn't walk in. So, you know, things like -- we had -- as I said, we will say, you know, it's a miracle that ha -- all things said and done, you live a more or less normal life. That's -- whatever the norm is.

Q: With a healthy does of humor, it sounds like.

A: Yeah. I mean, if you don't have any -- if you're not -- if you don't have humor then you -- it's -- that is not -- you can't survive in any situation, you know? So that's it, right?

Q: I think that's -- that's all my questions. Do you have anything else you'd like to share?

A: No, just that I was very lucky that I was only in camp for 11 months, a-and maybe that is what helped me to survive, because you don't know what time would do to you. It'd be much more hopeless than -- than a short time.

Q: So I guess you would perhaps take the attitude that even though you got caught while you were in hiding, you were fortunate to stay in hiding as long as you did?

A: Definitely, definitely.

End of Tape Four, Side A Beginning Tape Four, Side B

Q: I think I have one more question for you. This is a continuation of a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Ann Green. This is tape number four, side B. Just wanted to ask you if you ever have any dreams, or nightmares related to this time?

A: No, no, no, never.

Q: And what about during any of those years? During the war time and Auschwitz, and --

A: I don't think so, I don't know. I can't remember. I really can't remember. I don't remember having nightmares. I really don't.

Q: And the way in which you say you don't want to dwell on the memories --

A: I nev -- I never did, and I -- I don't think that I ever dwelled on a day to day basis what is going to be tomorrow. Whatever was going to be tomorrow, we face it tomorrow.

Q: And have you continued that attitude toward life?

A: More or less, yes, more or less. Because there is a be -- you know, to look into the future, you worry today and tomorrow something different. I mean, it's human nature, yes, we do worry. I'm not saying I'm not worried about certain things and drive myself crazy over nothing. But most of the time you were -- you -- you tried not to. Even if my children say I'm neurotic.

Q: Well, I want to thank you for -- for agreeing to be interviewed. Very much appreciate that.

And now this concludes the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Ann Green.

A: Thank you.

End of Tape Four, Side B

Conclusion of Interview