Document

IRENA BACH December 12, 1015

Q: This is a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with

Mrs. Irene Bach, in -- on December 12", 2015, in Chelsea, Massachusetts. Thank

you Mrs. Bach for agreeing to meet with us today, to talk with us today, and to

share your experiences. I'm going to ask a number of questions that start with the --

at the very beginning, and we" ll talk an awful lot about your pre-war life, in order

for people to get a better sense of the world you were born into, the people who

influenced you, what you learned, what you saw before it all came apart, and the

war and the Holocaust occurred. So my very first question is, can you tell me what

was your name at birth?

A: In birth was Irene -- Irena Schwettzer(ph).

Q: Schwettzer(ph)?

A: Schwettzer(ph).

Q: All right.

A: Yes.

Q: Can you tell me your date of birth?

A: Yes, July 10", 1925 in --in Poland, Lvov.

Q: In Lvov, okay.

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you have brothers and sisters?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 4

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: [had one sister who, she was three and a half years younger.

Q: And what was her name?

A: Janina(ph).

Q: Janina(ph). So she was born in 1928, "29?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. So in Polish that would have been Janina(ph).

A: Janina(ph), yeah. Janka(ph).

Q: Janina(ph). Janka(ph).

A: We call her Janka(ph), yes.

Q: Tell me a little bit about your family, with your parents, starting with your

parents. What was your mother's name, and her maiden name?

A: Her maiden name was Paula Scherner(ph).

Q: Scherner(ph).

A: Scherner(ph).

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah, and my father was Saul Schwettzer(ph), yeah.

Q: Okay. Were your -- were both sides of your family from Lvov for a long time, or

had they come there from somewhere else? That is, was your family in Lvov for

many generations?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 5

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Yes, yes.

Q: Yeah?

A: Yeah. They were born there, even my grandparents were born there, too.

Q: Okay.

A: Yes. Then it was -- when they were born, it was Austria.

Q: Truly?

A: Yes.

Q: It was Austria?

A: Yes, it was Austria then, yeah. And then, in that -- when it was the first World

War, then it came Poland again.

Q: I see.

A: Yeah.

Q: I see.

A: When I was born, was Poland.

Q: Okay.

A: When Joe -- my husband was born, was Austria.

Q: Isn't that interesting?

A: Yes.

Q: L always thought Lvov was part of the Russian empire.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 6

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: No.

Q: But it wasn't.

A: No.

Q: Okay.

A: No.

Q: Okay. So it was the Austro-Hungarian empire.

A: And then Poland, and then wa -- 1939, when the war broke out, the second

World War, then it became Russia again.

Q: Well, you know, it's interesting, in this part of the world, a person could be born

in one place, live there their entire place, and end up having lived in four countries.

A: Yeah.

Q: You know? The borders shifted and changed so much.

A: Exactly, yeah, yes.

Q: Tell me a little bit about your family. How did your father support the family?

A: My father was a businessman, and we had a very comfortable life --

Q: Can --

A: --i-in Lvov.

Q: In Lvov. Can you --

A: In Lvov.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 7

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: -- tell me what business he was in?

A: No, I don't remember any more.

Q: Okay.

A: No. But we were very comfortable. I was going to gymnasium, I had private

piano lessons. I had -- I went to -- for gymnastic, special gymnastic because I was a

little overweight, yeah.

Q: It doesn't look it at all.

A: No, not now, yeah.

Q: No.

A: Til 1939.

Q: We'll come to 1939.

A: Yeah.

Q: At this point I'd like to still get a sense of what your childhood was like. Tell me

a little bit about your home. Did your mother work outside of the family, or was she

A: No, no.

Q: Okay.

A: Sh-Sh -- she was home.

Q: And she took care of you.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 8

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Yeah.

Q: All right.

A: Took care of two of us, yes.

Q: Describe your home to me. What -- did you live in an apartment, or --

A: Apartment, yes.

Q: Okay, what did it look like? Describe it to me, if you can remember.

A: It-- we had separate bedroom together.

Q: The two girls.

A: With -- the sisters, yes.

Q: Yeah. Did you --

A: It was a small apartment. Nobody had big apartments at that time

[indecipherable] two bedrooms and a kitchen.

Q: Was the building an -- sort of like a 19" century building, like they often have in

Europe?

A: They're very old buildings --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- very old, yes.

Q: Yeah. Many stories?

A: Not -- not very comfortable. Didn't have a-- a bathroom, separate bathroom.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 9

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: That was one of my questions.

A: No, no.

Q: No?

A: No, we didn't have separate bathroom.

Q: Did you have running water?

A: Yes, we had running water, and we had gas, yeah --

Q: Did you have electricity?

A: Yes, we had electricity too, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: We had special coal -- coal and -- stove for coal an-and wood.

Q: So would that heat the apartment?

A: To -- to heat the apartment, yes. In each room -- in each room was a special stove

Q: Pve seen --

A: -- built.

Q: Yeah, I've seen some of these stoves that had beautiful tiles on them.

A: Exactly, the beautiful tiles, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: But you have to do it every day, and take the ashes out every day, yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 10

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Yeah, yeah. So it was heated by coal, you had gas --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- you had electricity. Did you have a radio --

A: No.

Q: -- in your home? No.

A: No, it -- it -- the radio exists already that time, but my parents said, we won't

have radio because you have to study. You have to study that this -- this will disrupt

you, your studying, to listen to radio.

Q: Well, like people said about television --

A: Yes.

Q: -- a few generations later.

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. Did your mother have any help at home with --

A: Yes, we did have help.

Q: Okay.

A: Yes.

Q: What kind of help?

A: She was coming to -- to clean the house, because we have -- we didn't have

carpets, we have -- like now, you have plain wood, wooden floor, but beautiful bu -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 11

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

beautiful floors. You had to wax them, you have to clean them, it was a very big

job, to polish them, to have a nice -- nice shine to it, yeah.

Q: Mm-hm. You say that your family was comfortable, yes?

A: Yes.

Q: Did that mean that you also were able to take vacations, and travel, and things

like that?

A: We didn't travel outside the country, but we did have vacation in Poland, yes,

we did.

Q: Where would you go?

A: Wi---we'd---one was Krynica --

Q: Okay.

A: -- that my -- my parents have a -- have an picture together. That was Krynica, the

name.

Q: And is that in the mountains, or by the sea, or was that --

A: No, no mountains, no.

Q: No.

A: But we went to mountains in the Carpartha -- Carpathic --

Q: Carpathian mountains.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 12

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Yeah, that was mountains, beautiful mountains. And ye -- Yeremsha(ph), you

call Yeremsha(ph). I went for -- for the summer, and overnight the kolon -- kona --

kolonia, you call kolonia.

Q: Okay, what is that, a kolonia?

A: That -- o-overnight camp.

Q: Oh, I see.

A: Overnight for g -- for girls, for girls, yes.

Q: Okay. Was that a camp associated with a group, or --

A: Wi-With school.

Q: With school?

A: This was from school, yeah.

Q: And did you -- what kind of school did you go to?

A: I went to gymnasium.

Q: A public school?

A: After six years, cl-class was re-regular school, we had go to -- if you -- if you can

afford, because you have to pay for gymnasium. That was all private.

Q: It was all private.

A: Private, yes.

Q: Okay. Did your gymnasium -- was it a religious place?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 13

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: No, no.

Q: No. Was it Polish in the sense of --

A: No.

Q: No.

A: Just -- just everybody could --

Q: Could go to it, okay.

A: -- could attend it, and I went there for four years --

Q: Okay.

A: -- til the -- the war broke.

Q: Yeah.

A: Yeah.

Q: And instruction at school was in Polish?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. And at home, what language did you speak?

A: Only Polish

Q: Only Polish.

A: Always Polish, yeah.

Q: Did you ever speak Yiddish?

A: No.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 14

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: No.

A: Never spoke Yiddish.

Q: Did you know any other languages?

A: At that time, no.

Q: Okay.

A: No.

Q: So we were -- so it sounds that your par -- your parents were assimilated into

Polish?

A: Very assimil -- yes, yes, very assimilated, yes, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: In--in gymnasium I took German language.

Q: So you understood German.

A: As a second language, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: You can choose English or German. I took the German.

Q: Okay. Did -- was your family religious?

A: No.

Q: Not at all, or just a little, or --

A: Just a little. Just a little, yes.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 15

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Okay. All right.

A: Just for high holidays, we observe high holidays, we observe Passover, Passover

holidays, but nothing special.

Q: Tell me, what do you remember of Lvov itself? Very few people know of it --a

city named Lvov. Tell me what it looked like, and what kind of a place it was in

your childhood, as you were growing up.

A: You mean, how the city?

Q: Mm-hm.

A: The city? Lvov is a very big city. I think it's about hundred thousand people.

Q: Okay.

A: And a lot of Jews, a lot of Jewish people --

Q: Okay.

A: -- lived in Lemberg -- in Lvov.

Q: Lemberg in German.

A: In German, yeah.

Q: Yeah.

A: Yeah.

Q: Were there other nationalities there as well?

A: Yes, Ukraine.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 16

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Ukrainians.

A: Polish, Ukraine and Jews.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah.

Q: And were you -- in ya -- the place where you lived, was it a neighborhood that

you could say was either a Polish neighborhood, or a Jewish neighborhood, or was

it mixed?

A: No, it wasn't Jewish, it was Polish and Ukraine nabe -- neighborhood, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: And now it's Ukraine.

Q: Yeah.

A: Lvov is Ukraine.

Q: Yeah.

A: Yeah.

Q: Now it's called Lviv.

A: Lviv, they call Lviv.

Q: Yeah.

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you have friends when you were growing up?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 17

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Oh sure, yeah, from school.

Q: From school?

A: School friend, yes. We have --

Q: Who were not Jewish?

A: Yes, they were Jewish --

Q: Oh, they were --

A: -- Jewish girls, yeah, I ha --I have one very close Jewish girl -- girlfriend. And we

have a very small family, I had my mother's sister, yeah.

Q: So, from both sides of your family, tell me a little bit about your mother and

your father's families. That is, did they have brothers and sisters? Did your mother

have brother --

A: My mother has two sisters.

Q: Okay.

A: One lives in -- in Lvov, and one lives in Krakew, yeah.

Q: So that's clear across the country.

A: Yeah.

Q: To the other side.

A: Yeah, it was five hours by train --

Q: Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 18

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: -- to go to Krakow. My father, I don't remember any family from his side.

Q: Really?

A: Yeah.

Q: No grandparents, no --

A: I don't know.

Q: -- nothing.

A: No grandparents. I have a grandmother yes, a very nice grandmother.

Q: From your mother's side.

A: Yes, mother's side. She lived with us for a while too.

Q: Did your parents ever tell you about their own childhoods, and how they were

growing up, and what --

A: No, no.

Q: No?

A: It was a very difficult life for them, so they -- they didn't want us t -- us even to

know or talk about it.

Q: Really? How did you know that it was difficult, then?

A: Because I -- they -- they didn't want to talk about it. So I figured out, must be

difficult.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 19

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Okay. Okay. Did you remember as you were growing up what kind of -- what

kind of conversations would take place around the family table?

A: My father was reading the papers from -- from beginning til end, and we will

always have discussion, politics.

Q: Really?

A: A politics discussion and -- and si-since Hitler came to power, so we always talk

about the -- about what's going on in German -- in Germany, what's going on in

Europe, yeah.

Q: Well, that's --

A: We talk about that, and we talk about our school.

Q: Okay.

A: About the school, what we're going through.

Q: Well, you anticipated one of my questions, because I often ask people, did

events in Germany, which is in another country, were they of interest to you? And

I'm interested to learn that way over on the eastern side of Poland, in Lvov --

A: But -- but we were our neighbors.

Q: Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 20

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: They were our neighbors, so we know about the war, the first World War, with

the -- was going on. It was on the same place, on the same grounds, and my parents

remember that.

Q: Did they tell you about the first World War?

A: No.

Q: Okay.

A: No.

Q: Okay. But they would remember about --

A: Yeah, well, they remember, yes. And so we knew, special when he came in the

30s, Hitler to the power, so it's something to talk about.

Q: Do you remember what you would be saying, what your parents would say?

A: First -- the first thing was the -- the Jewish problem. That was the first problem in

--in Germany.

Q: Mm-hm, what to do.

A: And then the refugees are start -- started to come in.

Q: Were there any refugees that came to Lvov?

A: Oh, a lot of German is -- yes, a lot of -- we helped them a lot, too.

Q: Really?

A: Yes, we did.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 21

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Okay. Because I remembered speaking with some German Jews who would say,

we lived in Germany, but we had Polish passports, so we were forced to leave, and

go to po --

A: They were forced to leave, yes.

Q: Yes, and go to Poland.

A: Yes.

Q: In what way did your parents help them?

A: They -- they lived with us for a few -- few months or few days. They were

relatives, but far -- far rel -- rel -- related to us. So I-- I never knew that I have them.

Q: Okay.

A: But didn't last too long because they went to Siberia.

Q: They were deported to Siberia?

A: Yeah.

Q: And do you know why?

A: A lot of them --

Q: Okay.

A: -- because they were refugees.

Q: Because they were refugee -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 22

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Because they were refugees, yes. They didn't have any p -- si-- papers, what do

you need the papers for, the Russians. And they couldn't survive.

Q: Okay. So they had come to Poland because they, at some point, had had a Polish

connection, had Polish citizenship --

A: N-Not only because of -- because that -- the closest country that they could run

away, because they were deported. They said, go whatever you -- you want to go, at

that time.

Q: Right.

A: At that time. That was in 1939. We were occupied by the Russian in deg39.

Q: I understand. I -- and we'll come to that. What I am talking about now is before,

when Hitler comes to power in 1933, that's about six years earlier. And your

parents -- your father reads the paper, and at the dinner table you discuss both

politics, and what's going on in school, and things.

A: Yeah.

Q: When did you -- was it -- did refugees start coming soon after Hitler came to

power? Or did it -- was it later on?

A: A little later on.

Q: A little later on?

A: Yeah, late -- yeah, before -- before the war started.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 23

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: Before the war they -- in deg39, they came maybe two, three years before.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. Now what about the Polish -- Polish politics. Was that of interest at home?

Was somebody like Pilsudski someone that your parents would talk about?

A: Yes, we were very interested, yeah, we were very interested what's going on --

Q: Okay.

A: -- what's going on in Germany, yes.

Q: All right. What about in Poland, in Poland itself? Did your father read and talk

about the leadership in Poland? About Pilsudski, about when he died, wh-who

came into power?

A: Yes, yes, yes. But it was quiet, in Poland, was very quiet. We didn't have any

demonstration at that time. It was quiet, yeah. Everybody was busy with their own

business.

Q: Did you -- did you ever experience anybody saying or doing anything to -- that

was disparaging because you were Jewish?

A: Before the war?

Q: Before the war.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 24

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: No.

Q: Okay.

A: No, no, it's -- not any demonstration against je -- Jews in Poland, no.

Q: Okay. Did you feel at home in Lvov?

A: Yes, til -- til it's started in Germany, so we s -- we s -- we felt a little, too. We felt

a little --

Q: In what way?

A: -- not -- not very -- very comfortable to be Jew in Poland.

Q: Okay.

A: I felt it in school.

Q: You did?

A: Yes, I did felt in school.

Q: How did that express itself?

A: It didn't bother me at all, it didn't bother me at all, this -- but I didn't like that,

most of what was there.

Q: But this was still a Polish school?

A: Yes, yes.

Q: And it was a private school, if it was gymnasia.

A: Private -- private school, yes.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 25

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: And how did it expre -- how did -- what happened, that you felt it from --

A: Di---di-- nothing happened, nothing happened. But I didn't like it when we have

a subject religion.

Q: Okay.

A: That was our subject too. So we have to divide the room. The Jewish girls --

they're only girls.

Q: Okay.

A: Jewish girls in one room with -- with the rabbi, and they teach us our religion,

and move to another room with the priest with the other girls.

Q: The Catholic girls.

A: Catholic girls have a religion, and that's what I don't li -- didn't like it.

Q: Why not?

A: I didn't like it because I felt the -- the division was dividing. They're dividing

already Jews and non-Jews.

Q: Okay. It became a point of sensitivity.

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. Did you have girlfriends who were not Jewish?

A: We were friendly, but they were not close friends, we were not close friends, no.

Q: Okay. Okay.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 26

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: That was a -- the separation already then.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah.

Q: Did your parents have -- have a social circle that included --

A: No.

Q: No.

A: Just a family and some friends, yeah, some friends, who never survived, yeah.

Q: But were -- yeah, but they're all Jewish?

A: Yes, yeah.

Q: Okay. You said that you weren't very religious, but you did -- you did go on

holidays.

A: Yes.

Q: To --

A: The high holidays, yes.

Q: The high holidays.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. Did you belong to any youth groups?

A: No.

Q: No?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 27

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: We didn't have any that time.

Q: Okay.

A: No.

Q: Tell me about the kolonia that you went, because you say that was associated

with your school.

A: Yes.

Q: So what kind of -- what kind of experience was that?

A: Oh, it was very pleasant, very pleasant, yeah. We went hiking, we went

swimming. Th-The air wasn't as air in the city, was very, very different. And the s-

see -- the scenes was just beautiful, this is a very nice part of Poland, beautiful part

of Poland, yes. The Carpathi(ph).

Q: Yeah. So it sounds like it was like a summer camp.

A: Yes, it was a summer camp, yeah.

Q: Yeah.

A: After school, yeah.

Q: Yeah. And it was for boys and girls together, or just the girls?

A: No, no, just sep -- everything was separate, yeah.

Q: All right. Did you have a chance to finish gymnasium?

A: If I have what?

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Did you finish your gymnasium studies?

A: IfI finish my education?

Q: Yes, your gymnasium education.

A: No.

Q: No.

A: I couldn't finish, no, I had only four years.

Q: Okay.

A: Four years of gymnasium.

Q: And how many years should it have been?

A: Six.

Q: So two more years?

A: Yeah. Yes.

Q: Two more years. Tell me a little bit about your parents" personalities.

A: About what?

Q: Your -- the personalities of your parents. What kind of a person was your mother,

what kind was your father?

A: Yeah, it was difficult, because I was still a child, you know, when a 14, 15 in

Europe, you're a child, not like here.

Q: Yes, I know, I know.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Yeah.

Q: I know.

A: Yeah. So --

Q: Well, were they outgoing?

A: You don't think about that -- their personality.

Q: I know, I know. And I know it's a bit of a strange question. But what I'm trying

to get a sense of is what kind of people were they? Li-- what kind of interests did

they have?

A: Yeah.

Q: Your mother for example, did she have any hobbies that she particularly liked?

A: No, no.

Q: No.

A: No, no. Her hobby was just home. Just home. And my father was the business --

business he --

Q: Were they extroverted, or introverted people? That is, were they people who

were open and gregarious, and --

A: No.

Q: No?

A: No.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: They were more quiet?

A: They were quiet, yeah, that's right.

Q: And what are some of your earliest memories from your childhood? Some

incidents? You know, we all have something from when we were little that we

remember. It may not be significant, but we remember it.

A: Yeah, I remember very well when my aunt lost her husband.

Q: The one in Krak6ew?

A: And I- and I liked them a lot, and I-- my uncle. And I liked them a lot, and I--

they -- they kept quiet, they didn't -- didn't tell me that he passed away.

Q: Okay.

A: But through other person I found out, and I felt very, very badly about it, as I

didn't go to the funeral. That -- that time the children didn't go to funeral.

Q: Okay.

A: They kept themselves quiet, not to tell bad news. Don't say bad news to a child.

Q: Yeah, yeah. So that was a shock.

A: So I don't -- I still remember that, yeah.

Q: That was a shock, yeah. Now, was there -- was there talk outside of your family

as well, about the growing unease in Europe? For example, when Germany took

over Czechoslovakia, was that something that people remarked upon in Lvov?

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: That was -- well, wit -- first they took Poland, and then Czechoslovakia.

Q: No.

A: In--in'41.

Q: No, no, no. It wa -- first Czechoslovakia was taken, I believe in "39.

A: Oh yes, I remember, that par -- part of czecho --

Q: Yes, that's right.

A: Yes, now I remember, yes.

Q: Yeah. Was that something that --

A: Yes, the f-- of course, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: They di-- what -- that's why they were talking on a -- that they gonna spread this

-- Hitler always say, we need |-lebensraum --

Q: Yeah.

A: --lebensraum, the -- it mean that they are -- they are too small, they have to

spread around. We are gonna take the whole Europe.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah, that's what he was talking about. His speech was terrible, his speech was --

Q: You had heard it?

A: Ye --no, I didn't, we -- we didn't have radio, no.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Oh, of course not, of course not.

A: No, but from the pa -- newspaper.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah.

Q: So the newspapers would reprint his speeches, or at least part of those speeches.

So the summer of 1939, you were then 14 years old?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. Do you remember that last summer before the war?

A: Yes, wi---I still will -- when the Russian came over, I went to school. We were

going still to school, the two years --

Q: Okay.

A: -- the two years we were going to school, to deg31.

Q: To 41, you mean.

A: "41, yeah.

Q: Okay, but let's start with the day the war begins, you know? The war started on

September 1*, 1939.

A: 739,

Q: Do you remember how you found out about it?

A: Yes, the bombs are falling on our head, and we were running to cellar.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: That's how.

Q: Whose bombs were these?

A: The ba -- what bombs?

Q: Yeah.

A: German bombs.

Q: They were German bombs.

A: German bombs are falling, yeah. Fallish -- in tre -- in three weeks, German took

over the whole Poland.

Q: Okay. Did they come --

A: It wasn't -- there wasn't an army. It was a -- it -- it -- they call army, but it wasn't

army. We didn't have any ammunition, we didn't have any plane, we didn't have

anything to defend ourselves --

Q: Okay.

A: -- in Poland. So the German took over Poland in three weeks.

Q: Did you see German soldiers in Lvov?

A: Of course, yeah.

Q: Yeah?

A: They came to our apartment.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: In 1939?

A: Yeah -- no, "41.

Q: Okay. I'm talking about 1939.

A: 739.

Q: Y-Y-You say ger --

A: The Russian.

Q: It wa -- okay, so this is something I'd like to make clear. The war starts on

September 1*, deg39, with the Germans attacking Poland, on September 1*, "39.

A: No.

Q: No?

A: The Russian came from one side, and the German come in from the other side.

Q: Okay.

A: But in "39 the Russian came over to -- to Lvov.

Q: Okay. Do --

A: They divided Poland.

Q: Okay. All right.

A: Yeah.

Q: How did -- do you remember when you first saw the Russian soldiers, and the

Russian forces?

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: N-No.

Q: No.

A: No, we don't remember that.

Q: Okay.

A: They were coming so slowly, yeah.

Q: Okay. But you were going to school.

A: Yes, we were going still to school by ru -- Russian, yes.

Q: And did your lessons change? Did the lesson plan change when --

A: Everything changed, every change -- yeah, my father lost the business. The --

they were talking already that, who had money, who has ra -- rich people. They --

they will have to leave your place where you live, and go on some small villages. I

know my good -- not friends, but people that I know, they lost every busni --

everything, everything, their homes, everything.

Q: So the businesses were taken away, the homes were taken away.

A: Yes, yes.

Q: And your father's business was taken from him?

A: Yes. He lost everything, yeah.

Q: And what about your home? Were you kicked out of your own home and --

A: No, this not was my home, we lived in an apartment, but we staying there.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Okay, okay.

A: That -- we were not rich people, but we were comfortable people.

Q: Okay. How did your father -- how was he able to earn a living when he lost his

business?

A: For about two years --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- I tell you the truth, I don't remember.

Q: Okay.

A: But I know I'm still going to school.

Q: Okay. And did they talk at home, your parents, when the Russians came, what --

about that, about --

A: No, we -- we were not -- that was very unexpected. We didn't expect them to

come -- to take over the pole -- par-part of Poland --

Q: Okay.

A: -- that they gonna take. Mo-More prepared that the German will come over, but

then --

Q: So you were surprised to see them?

A: Yes, we were surprised to s -- the --

Q: Yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: [have to learn Russian language in school.

Q: Okay. So that was one way that school changed, is that you were starting to --

A: Yeah, school changed. No Polish language any more in school.

Q: Okay.

A: You can talk to each other, but we had a subject, Polish wa-was a subj -- no

Polish, no Latin. We had Latin in gymnasium, you know, that we had. They

stopped, too.

Q: What about the religious studies that you mentioned?

A: No religious study either, no.

Q: No?

A: Because they don't bel-believe in anything.

Q: Okay.

A: No religion at all.

Q: Was there political subjects you had to study?

A: No, no.

Q: So you didn't have to study marx --

A: No politics, no pol -- the one politics is the ru -- Russian motherland, that's

what's impo -- was the most important --

Q: Okay.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: -- is the Russian --

Q: Motherland.

A: Yeah.

Q: So you learn -- did you learn Russian history? Is that --

A: Oh yes, actually Russian history, Russian songs, Russian poets.

Q: Okay.

A: All the poets you have to know by heart, yeah.

Q: And the classes were taught in Russian, then?

A: Russian and Ukraine. We had another language, Ukraine, which was -- I was

very surprised, what we need Ukraine? But with so many Ukraines on that side of --

of Lvov specially, and then surrounding Lvov, that we learn. It's a very similar

language.

Q: Did you learn it?

A: It was difficult. It was -- not Russian, but Ukraine was more difficult than -- than

the Russian.

Q: Well, there was tension between Poles and Ukrainians.

A: Always. Yeah, they hate each other, yeah.

Q: Did you sense that before the war, there wa -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Before the war? Ye -- no, I ha -- I knew they're talking about it, but not -- no s --

any special incident or something like that, no.

Q: And what happened, did it change when the Russians came?

A: No.

Q: No.

A: Not that I know of. I-- I was really not interested in that, so --

Q: Okay, okay. But did more Ukrainians come in to offi -- positions of some

influence or power, as far as you knew?

A: No.

Q: No.

A: No, no.

Q: Was it all Russian then?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: That was all Russian, yeah.

Q: Okay. And who ran the city then, was it Russians from abro -- or did they find

local collaborators to help in the -- you know, the authorities?

A: Yeah, tha -- on the -- or Russian, yes. Everything a -- that's was -- that -- it seems

like they gonna stay forever there.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: All the Russian came over, the Russian people came over. They were buying

everything what you -- you can see in the stores. The stores were empty shelves,

they were buying so -- everything what you can see.

Q: Was -- that must have been surprising.

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: Yeah. Did you hear much about -- about the Germans during this time?

A: Yes, there were -- from the newspaper, everything. and then after a while you se

-- you -- you saw the refugees coming.

Q: So-

A: The refugees coming from the --

Q: So there -- okay, so there were refugees coming during the Soviet occupation.

A: Oh yes, yeah, yeah.

Q: Did you meet or talk to any of them?

A: Oh sure, yes, I-- I knew s --I knew some. Yeah, I knew a lot. But they were, like

I said before, they were not too long there, because they deported them, almost all

of them departed there to Siberia.

Q: Okay. So these --

A: Ina cattle -- cattle wagons.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: All right. So pretty soon then y -- explain this to me, because some people will

not know what this is, what -- why would they have been deported? What were

these deportations? What was happening when the Soviets came?

A: I really don't know why they did it, because they were homeless people?

Q: Were there other people who were being deported as well, not just the refugees?

A: Yes, some Polish people, some Jewish people, yeah. From -- like my husband

was deported.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah.

Q: Were you --

A: Or some -- some were deported who were very, very rich.

Q: Did you fear that your family might be deported?

A: No, no.

Q: So even though your father's business was taken away --

A: Yeah, but we -- we don't belong to that group --

Q: Okay.

A: -- that we are rich people.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Okay. Did you ever have any interaction with the Soviet authorities?

A: No, no, never, no.

Q: No. Okay. No one came to your home?

A: No, no.

Q: Okay. So your lives changed in the sense that --

A: My life change in -- in school.

Q: In school.

A: The most thing was my school, that -- because I was only 14.

Q: Okay.

A: So I was interested in my studies. I thought I gonna finish gymnasium.

Q: Yeah.

A: And think what to do after that.

Q: Did your teachers change in school?

A: Yes, teacher -- because they didn't know Russian either, so you have new

teachers.

Q: Okay.

A: What happened to the teacher from Latin, or-- or religion? That I don't know

what happened to them.

Q: Was it harder for your mother to feed the family?

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Was difficult, yes. Was difficult. We have a beautiful theater in Lvov, beautiful

theater. And we will -- something -- and I knew a play, so we went from school to

see the play. I don't remember any more the names.

Q: And was this during the occupation time that you were able to go to see the

plays?

A: It onl -- yeah, at the beginning yes. At the beginning, not later.

Q: Okay. What about the movie cinemas? Were you -- were you --

A: That wil -- we were private. Beautiful pictures, American picture from

Goldyn(ph) Mayer.

Q: Metro Goldyn(ph) Mayer.

A: Metro Goldyn(ph) Mayer, beautiful pictures. And -- but was private, I was

going every Saturday afternoon.

Q: Really?

A: Yeah, every -- I had to see some. And -- and the ticket was one zloty.

Q: One zloty.

A: One zloty, yeah.

Q: Do you remember any of the films that you saw there?

A: Iremember, but I forgot the names.

Q: Oh.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: One I remember tha -- with Tyrone Power, "The Suez Canal."

Q: Oh real -- "The Suez Canal?"

A: "The Suez Canal." That I never forget, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah. And then was a -- another love story, with Jeanette --

Q: MacDonald?

A: Yes, with Jeanette MacDonald, yeah.

Q: Okay. Did you see "Snow White?" Did you see Disney's "Snow White?"

A: Oh, yes.

Q: You did? No, you don't remember.

A: "S-Snow White?" Not Disneyland, no.

Q: No, no, no, but the very first Disney film, "Snow White," came out in the late

1930s.

A: I must have -- now I don't remember, but I'm sure I must have went.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. It's interesting to hear that in -- here in this part of Europe, during, you

know, such times that one could see those films.

A: Yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Now, when the Soviets came, did you -- were you still able to go to the movies?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: Yes, yes.

Q: Did the films change?

A: They still -- yeah, they still have the films.

Q: Okay.

A: A lot of Russian films, but that was mixed in too.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. How did re -- did relations between people change after you had, you

know, the -- the Soviets come in? Did people -- were they -- did they change how

they behaved with each other?

A: Yeah, they did change, because they're not communists.

Q: Okay.

A: The communism was very, very high then, but not people that I know. They

were not.

Q: Okay.

A: They were not, no.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Okay. But di-- were people more careful around each other? Were they

frightened, were they --

A: Not that I remember.

Q: Okay. Okay.

A: No.

Q: All right. And you had this wave of refugees coming in, Jewish refugees from

the German occupied --

A: Oh yes, yes.

Q: -- parts of Poland.

A: A lot. A lot of them, yeah.

Q: Were they te -- you say you knew some of these people.

A: I knew someone, yes, the -- and they were deported, yeah.

Q: And they were deported.

A: They were deported, yes.

Q: Did they tell you stories of what they had experienced?

A: They -- half of them didn't come back.

Q: I'm not talking about Siberia, I'm talking about when they came from Germany

A: Yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: -- and they were there for a while.

A: They were -- they were there whatever they cou-could carry --

Q: Okay.

A: -- that were there, on their backs. And -- and --

Q: And did they tell you what was going on in Germany?

A: Yeah, they just hound them like -- like dogs, yeah. Like --

Q: The Germans authorities?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: They came to the homes, they came to the homes and they said, get out, get out,

get out, yeah.

Q: And then they come eastwards to Lvov, and then they're deported.

A: And they were deport -- deported, yes --

Q: Okay.

A: -- they were deported. Terrible. They ca -- they came always at night, always at

night, yeah.

Q: That would be the Soviet soldiers?

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. Okay. In your building -- did anybody from your building get deported?

A: No, no. They were not -- not de -- that important people --

Q: Okay.

A: -- to be deported, yes.

Q: Okay. So this happens, you know the Soviets are there for almost two years.

A: Two year -- two years, yes.

Q: Yeah. Then what happened?

A: Then -- then the German came over with the terrific bombs over our head. We

had go running again to cellar.

Q: Second time.

A: For a few days we didn't see -- we couldn't get out --

Q: Okay.

A: -- because it was very, very, very strong bombardment, and we saw the Russian

running. They running. They didn't -- Poland didn't -- didn't defend themselves,

and the Russian was run -- just not -- not -- they were not prepared either.

Q: Okay.

A: They were not prepared because the German with Russian, they were friends at

that time.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Strange, huh?

A: Yeah, they were friends. And then, that's what happened, overnight, too.

Q: Okay. So what happened for you --

A: That was, I think, in June.

Q: June 1941.

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. June 21%, if--if I'm not mistaken.

A: Oh, then we knew what's gonna happen. Then we knew.

Q: You did?

A: We knew what's gonna happened, yeah. And we'll have lines and lines t -- f-for

the bread, we didn't have. We have -- but my mother had a very good -- good -- not

the Jewish look, so she stays in line, because whoever looked Jewish, they throw

them out from the line.

Q: So this is one of my questions: when the Germans arrived, how did your life

change? What happened?

A: Very, very much so. First, we didn't have anything to eat.

Q: Okay.

A: Especially Jewish people.

Q: There was a distinction made.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Yes. And then -- so we said -- for many weeks we were saying, only my mother

staying in line. She was afraid to -- for me to stay, that I would be in line.

Q: Did -- okay.

A: So she was a-- and that's why we're [indecipherable] a little sugar, a little that,

but it was very difficult to survive.

Q: Okay. What was your father doing during this time?

A: He was hiding. He didn't go out from the room. He didn't room -- yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: But he couldn't hide for -- o-only a few months. Few months. And I remember

that he went to this -- I don't remem -- but I know that he was caught on the street.

Q: Okay.

A: He was caught on the street with his friend --

Q: Okay.

A: -- and deported right away to concentration camp in -- in Lemberg. Maybe you

heard about Janowska.

Q: [have heard of Janowska.

A: Yeah, he was there, and that was in Lvov.

Q: Okay.

A: On the outskirts of -- of Lvov, yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Did you find -- how did you find out about this? How did you find out that he

was arrested, that he was taken to --

A: How we found out?

Q: Mm.

A: I--I don't remember how we found out. Maybe because he never came back.

Q: He never came back.

A: No, never came back. He was there [indecipherable] maybe two months. He --

he got typhus, the typhus fever, was it -- that's how it's called.

Q: Okay.

A: And he died, in the -- in -- in the camp.

Q: Oh my.

A: Yeah.

Q: Oh my.

A: So we don't know where -- how he was buried, where he was buried, we didn't

know anything -- anything about it, yeah. He was only 42 years old.

Q: And his name again was? Tell me his name again. Your father's --

A: Solomon, but we call it Saul.

Q: Okay. Solomon Schwettzer(ph).

A: Schwettzer(ph), yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Solomon Schwettzer(ph). Age 42.

A: Yes. Mm-hm.

Q: What was going on with your mother --

A: Then they throw us else from our apartment, and they were starting to make

ghetto, slobdo -- putting together as more as possible Jews together. Two fa -- three

families in one room.

Q: Oh my.

A: We were going from one -- one spot I remember, for Jewish section. We were

there a few months, they throw us out to another place e -- even smaller.

Q: Okay.

A: They catching people on the street that you -- they never came back, you never

saw them any more.

Q: And so you were starting --

A: And we were hiding, always hiding.

Q: So, when you say you were hiding, you were in the ghetto already, in this three

roo -- okay

A: Yeah, but the ghetto was open. You could still move around. Get out, come

back, get out and come back, til it started -- we call it akeja in Polish.

Q: Okay.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: When they catching people on the streets, and going from ho-house to house.

Raus, raus, raus, that's what they did that.

Q: Okay. And when they -- when you were hiding, does that mean you were hiding

in places outside the ghetto?

A: No.

Q: You were hiding inside the g --

A: I was hiding, I remember once --

Q: Okay.

A: -- Thad the girlfriend, she had some papers --

Q: Okay.

A: -- that she write -- they didn't touch her, the Germans -- Gestapo --

Q: Okay.

A: -- they didn't touch her, because she is working for them, she was sewing or

something. And she has a layout -- we didn't have closet they were built in -- in the

-- in the wall, we have a separate -- separate unit. So she has a big, big, from wall to

wall a closet, and she covered the whole room. That didn't -- no -- nobody is bes --

behind the closet, that she has only one room and the kitchen, no more. So we were

hiding there for a few days, my mother, my sister, my grandmother that time. And

we were there for a few days -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: And this was --

A: -- hiding behind the -- behind the closet.

Q: Okay. And that was outside the ghetto, or inside --

A: That was part of ghetto then, yeah.

Q: Part of ghetto then.

A: Yeah.

Q: A-And if you were in the ghetto, what was the advantage of hiding? Were they

rounding people up?

A: In the ghetto you couldn't find. I wasn't in the get -- I was in the ghetto open,

open ghetto.

Q: Okay.

A: But not -- you couldn't hide. It's no room where to hide.

Q: Okay.

A: Or maybe some people did underground, something I don't know.

Q: Okay. All right. Were you found? Did somebody find you, or was it a successful

hiding place?

A: No, no, we -- we didn't hide. We -- were just in that tiny, tiny room, my mother,

my sister, my grandma and that's all. We -- we were [indecipherable] what's gonna

happen -- gonna happened.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: I know, but you mention this time when you're in the closet at this friend's

house, or this girl who was sewing for the Germans, and you say you were there for

a few days.

A: Few days.

Q: Okay. My question is, why were you hiding at that time?

A: Because they were going from room to -- from apartment to apartment, catching

all the Jews out.

Q: I see.

A: Taking all the Jews, yeah, whatev -- specially men. Specially men. But then what

-- didn't matter who. So we were not in the closet, behind the closet was a room, and

Q: So you were in the room.

A: And we were in the room behind the closet.

Q: Closet. I ha -- okay, now I understand.

A: Yeah.

Q: So the closet was like a false wall.

A: Yeah, that's -- no wall -- no apartment behind the closet.

Q: Okay, so there's nothing behind there.

A: Not -- nothing behind, yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: I see. And you were in there.

A: Mm-hm.

Q: And when they -- when there was no more rounding up of people, then you came

out.

A: Then I came out. Then was quiet.

Q: Okay.

A: Then was quiet again for a few days, or for few weeks --

Q: Okay.

A: --so you can move around. And then, you never knew -- then, he came, get out,

raus, raus, this section there that you could live.

Q: Okay.

A: And that should be empty -- emptied out in -- in some streets --

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: -- in--in Lvov.

Q: Okay.

A: So we were there again, in the very, very tiny, tiny -- it was just one room, we

had one room. It's -- it-- and Polish people were selling -- selling the apartments,

and we bought that tiny, tiny room with a -- with a toilet outside -- outside with the

open, you know -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Yeah, yeah.

A: -- how was the toilets that time?

Q: Like an outhouse. Like an outhouse.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: And flies. And the flies flying around.

Q: Was this on the outskirts of --

A: Outskirts, all -- already outskirt of -- of Lemberg, yes.

Q: Li- okay. But not inside the ghetto?

A: No, not yet.

Q: Not yet.

A: No, not yet.

Q: Not yet.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay, so you bought -- so people were selling and you bought that tiny room --

A: Yes, yeah.

Q: -- with the outhouse and the flies.

A: We -- we knew that's only temporarily, only temporarily, that's all.

Q: Okay.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Yeah.

Q: All right. So what happened after that?

A: After that, I don't know how that man -- a man came around and he said, I can

take you out from the -- from the ghetto on -- on the outskirt.

Q: Okay.

A: You can go wherever you want, but you have to have some papers. And that's

why I have those papers. We wrote those papers. The Polish people were making

their false kennkartes.

Q: Okay.

A: But you have to have papers with your picture.

Q: So it was false I.D. cards.

A: Yeah

Q: False identif -- okay.

A: A kennkarte.

Q: Eine kennkarte, eine kennkarte. And this was a Polish man who came around?

A: Yes, yes.

Q: And so he was offer -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: No, that was a Jewish guy who knew -- who knew Polish people, that's what

their business there, they're making a -- as a business, they copy. They copy

fantastically. Oh, the cop -- copied the -- how it's supposed to be.

Q: Okay.

A: The kennkarte with my picture.

Q: So that meant that you were able to avoid being enclosed in a ghetto, is that

right?

A: That's what the -- almost closing, almost on closing.

Q: Okay.

A: So I left my -- everybody --

Q: Okay.

A: Everybody. My mother, my sister, my grandma, my aunt.

Q: Did -- did they get this kennkarten as well?

A: No, no.

Q: Why not?

A: They never did, because it was too late already. I just did -- left the ghetto with

the horse and buggy.

Q: Okay.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Someone took me with my papers, with my little suitcase, and I was going out --

out, I don't know where. We went -- I ha -- wi-with another friend, with another

girlfriend. She had the same papers.

Q: Okay.

A: And we went to kra -- took the train, we're going to Krakow. Why to Krakow?

I don't know.

Q: Okay.

A: But I had my aunt in Krakow, in ghetto. So she went --

Q: She was in the Krakew ghetto?

A: Yeah, in the Krakow ghetto. She went to warsha -- Warsaw, my friend, and I

went to -- to see my aunt in ghetto. I didn't know what to do, where to go. I have a

little money with me, of course my mother gave me. And I went to -- and I stay with

her.

Q: In her ghetto?

A: Yeah. Then we're starting a -- a liquidation day ghetto. So, I don't know how --

how I moved out from that ghetto. I moved out on the s -- ou-outside the ghetto.

Q: So [have a question here. You were in the ghetto -- first you have this little

house that you -- this little room.

A: In1--in Lvov.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: In Lvov --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- that you buy, and then your moo -- and then you're there for a short while, and

then you're moved into the Lvov ghetto.

A: Th-That was included. They included --

Q: So it was included in --

A: -- that part.

Q: -- into the Lvov ghetto.

A: Yeah, into the ghetto.

Q: All right.

A: Yes, they did.

Q: And you then get these false papers --

A: Yes.

Q: -- but your mother and your sister and your aunt -- grandmother --

A: They were there.

Q: -- they were there --

A: Yes.

Q: -- but they don't have time to get them.

A: Yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: You leave that ghetto, and you get to Krakew to your aunt. How do the two

ghettos compare? Did they look the same? Do the same things going on? Same

buildings?

A: I don't know how they looked.

Q: Okay.

A: I couldn't tell you how they looked. Ghetto is ghetto, you closed in, you can't

get out.

Q: Okay.

A: Ba-Barbed wires -- barb wires were all around.

Q: Okay. But the ghetto in Lvov, was that in the center of town, or a part of town?

A: No, it's a little further.

Q: It's a little further.

A: No -- not -- not that much outs -- outside, bu-but much, much further, not in the

middle of the city, no.

Q: Okay. You see, Warsaw was in the middle --

A: It's too nice.

Q: Yeah.

A: It's too nice, the city was too nice to make a ghetto there, yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: And Krakow. Krakow ghetto is also on the outskirts, or in the center, or where

is it?

A: No, it was almost -- like Lvov, a half and half.

Q: Okay.

A: They -- they took half of outskirts, too.

Q: Okay.

A: But I was there on the one day -- no, a few days, few days. And I was walking

the streets, the streets don't -- didn't know where to go. Someone approached me, he

n---oh, you see, he told me, I th--I thought you must be Jewish. How would he

recognize me, I don't know, because I had -- I --

Q: And you were walking on the streets of the ghetto, or outside?

A: Outside. Outside the ghetto.

Q: Okay.

A: I was outside. Then I was already afraid to go back.

Q: Got it.

A: Because I knew I gonna ke -- be caught there, and I will never get out.

Q: Okay. Okay. So he approached you and said you must be Jewish.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: And he said, I gi--I will give you an address where I know you're gonna be safe

with a Polish woman, because she -- not hiding, she didn't know that I am Jewish,

but she's renting room.

Q: Okay.

A: Try, maybe she -- she will take you in. And that was another couple there, a

Jewish couple. She didn't know that they were Jewish. She didn't know that I am --

I was there almost half a year with her.

Q: Oh my goodness.

A: She was a French -- French Polish old -- old -- old maid. And sh -- that's -- she

made a -- a --a living renting rooms. Oh she -- oh, she loved me right away.

Q: Did she?

A: She took me in. Yeah, she loved me, yeah. It was a -- through -- through the

winter, I think.

Q: And so you were able to pay because your mother had gotten --

A: And I pay, yeah, I pay her, and she -- she told me -- someone said, you know, she

must be Jewish -- on me, on me. So she said, I don't care who she is, I like her so

much, so she can stay. Yeah. She was in danger too, you know --

Q: Yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: -- Polish people were in danger when they were caught hiding, even if you didn't

know that I am. Because I have papers, perfect papers, everything. And th--I was

telling her a story, and lies, I was telling it, but I had to remember those lies, not to

--not to say something else.

Q: What was your false name? What was your false name?

A: Is Irena -- I called Irena Starzewska.

Q: Starzewska.

A: Yeah. They ask me, if they making my papers, they ask me, what name do you

want? So I said Irena I like it --

Q: Okay.

A: -- and that this was a Polish name. And I have a sweater --

Q: Okay.

A: -- with -- with my name, Irena, which I like very much too.

Q: Okay.

A: So I said, ke-keeping my first name, and I made up Starzewska. I made this up.

Q: You made this up. But then you were able to remember these things. You were

able to remember it easy.

A: I do.

Q: Yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: I did. I did remember, I did. I told them [indecipherable] with my father it was

true that --I told her he was killed, he was killed.

Q: Yes.

A: -- having -- having this in a concentration camp --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- such sickness.

Q: Yeah.

A: And I's-said my mother died long time ago, and I ha -- I'm sierota. I'm 0 --

Q: Orphan.

A: All by myself.

Q: Yeah, yeah. Did you feel fear at these times? Were you frightened that you

would be discovered? Or did you feel --

A: Oh, oh, frightened all the time.

Q: Okay.

A: That was the worst thing, the fright there --

Q: Yeah?

A: -- always, always, yeah.

Q: Okay. Hang on just a second. Okay, all right. It was the noise that I got -- I heard.

All right, we can start again.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q2: I didn't stop.

Q: You didn't stop. Okay, sorry. Sorry, I was distracted a little bit. So what was this

lady's name? Do you remember, the fri -- French Polish lady who liked you so

much?

A: No, that -- only first name, Cecilia.

Q: Cecilia.

A: Cecilia was her first name.

Q: Cecilia.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. Would you have stayed with her forever if you could have?

A: No, no, no.

Q: No. Why not?

A: No.

Q: Tell me what happened.

A: No, fi-first, | wanted to go with my -- my people, to look for my people after the

war, and go t -- continue my education.

Q: Okay.

A: I was still too young not to go.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Yeah, but -- of course. My question is, you come to her sometime in 1941 or 42,

to this lady.

A: No, it was -- no, not f--it was end -- ending 42, yeah.

Q: End of "42.

A: Yeah.

Q: And you said you stayed with her for half a year.

A: Yeah.

Q: What happened after that?

A: After that, they were catching people, the German people on the street to go to

work.

Q: Okay.

A: And deporting them. Mostly they go to factories when the -- making bombs, and

making something. And they e-- English are bombing them, the bombs are falling

every day, terribly. So there -- the rumors are going that when you go willingly and

say you're -- I want to go to work in Germany, you can choose the name, the city,

wherever you want to go, they take you.

Q: So in other words, you have a chance have -- having a better situation.

A: Yes, better situation, and ben -- between German I had better situation not to --

with my papers.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: So you s -- by -- because you learned German, you were studying German in

gymnasium, and because you had those papers, you feel -- you -- you thought -- I --

you're in a better position.

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. So what did you do?

A: I went to the Polish arbeitsant.

Q: Okay.

A: Wi-With -- they're taking, willingly --

Q: Volunteers.

A: --I said I want to -- I don't have a chance to survive here on the street, because

they gonna catch me any day.

Q: Okay.

A: And so they said, you want to go here, there, you know, Katowice was the --

where they making the -- the coal -- coals.

Q: Okay.

A: Katowice, maybe you heard about it.

Q: Yes, I have, I have heard of Katowice.

A: So I said no, I don't want to go there, I want to -- I love mountains and lakes, if

you have something there. Oh, yeah, we do have. We have Berchtesgaden.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Berchtesgaden. Berchtesgaden.

A: Berchtesgaden.

Q: Did you know at that point --

A: No, I didn't know anything. I loved mountains and lakes, and there's -- there's a

inn that need help.

Q: Okay. In Berchtesgaden.

A: Yeah. And you gonna go without a transport, no transport, no -- not cattle -- cattle

Q: Wagon.

A: -- wagon. You go by train. You go straight by train, next day. Oh, I was in

heaven. I said, okay, I am taking, of course I am taking.

Q: Okay.

A: And then I went by train, passing the border from Poland to Germany, you had

to get out from the train, and showing all the papers. And I knew that some -- two

guys are watching me in the train, and I right away was shaking. So right away, oh,

something is wrong. Then when we came back to the train and he told me, we were

sure that you are a Jewish girl. We were watching what papers you're having to

show. Then we change our mind. So that was my -- my luck, that was my luck

again.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: So that meant that -- were these Germans or Poles?

A: They were Polish German, Polish German.

Q: So Volksdeutsche?

A: Volksdeutsche.

Q: Okay.

A: Two of them, I -- dressed in black une -- black, not uniforms.

Q: So they weren't SS.

A: They get anoth-another stop, and I were -- I were -- were -- I went my -- further. I

went further.

Q: So when they saw you come back, then they changed their minds that you're not

Jewish.

A: Yes, they changed their mind, beca -- we were watching you, what kind of papers

you gonna have. They knew right away what kind of papers I-- my -- remember

such a pink -- pink sheet that I-- where I am going, and why I am going, and passing

-- to see I can pass the border.

Q: And that they even told you this. This is also amazing.

A: That they told me that, yeah.

Q: I don't know how I would have reacted. I mean it --

A: Yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Yeah. So you went on. You -- you then -- they got off the train?

A: They got off th -- off the train much, much before me, I went further.

Q: Okay. And what did you find when you got to Berchtesgaden?

A: I didn't go to Berchtesgaden, I went a little before Berchtesgaden, it was

Traunstein.

Q: Traunstein.

A: Traunstein, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: The city. And over there I waited for my -- my boss to come in --

Q: Okay.

A: -- and take me to her place.

Q: Okay.

A: And I saw right away a beautiful place. Even Traunstein was beautiful too,

yeah. And she took me, she told me, this is your room, I had my room. That was a

inn. There were maybe 15 rooms there.

Q: Okay.

A: And I was a housemaid. And I was helping in the kitchen.

Q: Okay.

A: And I was cleaning, and that's -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: You were there from deg42?

A: And every month I had to go to Gestapo to show my face and my papers. That

was another t -- trauma for me.

Q: Of course.

A: Is a--I was -- I was afraid and -- and there were other Polish people too. I was

afraid for the Polish people too.

Q: You were afraid of them? That the Poles would say something about you?

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: Could they tell that you weren't Polish?

A: They could, if they -- if they really knew for hundred percent, they would do it.

But I--I looked good, I sp -- I spoke perfect Polish, maybe better than they over

there, who was with me.

Q: Okay.

A: And I knew all the -- the whole religion, Polish religion, Polish Christmas songs.

I knew everything perfect.

Q: Okay. Okay, so --

A: So every -- every month I had to go to the --

Q: Gestapo.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: -- Gestapo. It was a Sunday -- Sunday excursion, walk. I-- maybe five miles I had

to walk to the Gestapo there.

Q: Would you walk by yourself?

A: Yes, I wa-walk -- Polish people couldn't -- couldn't have -- couldn't take a train,

they couldn't go anyplace without permission.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah. And always wear the P, a yellow P on your lapel, always. I was caught

once without, I was wearing under my pel, and I -- because I didn't want to show,

because I look -- over there, I look like a German peop -- a German girl. I was

wearing always a dirndl, you know what a dirndl?

Q: A dirndl, uh-huh.

A: Yeah, because my boss gave it to me, the old one.

Q: Okay.

A: And my hairdo. My hairdo was the best hairdo. Til today I say my hairdo saved

me.

Q: Tell me how.

A: Because I look like a Bavarian girl. This Bavaria in Berchtesgaden.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: And I didn't know that his -- Hitler has his summer good -- summer home few

miles away.

Q: You didn't know?

A: No, at that time I didn't know, no.

Q: When did you find out?

A: After.

Q: After the war?

A: Yeah.

Q: Really?

A: Really, yeah.

Q: So at this inn, you weren't the only Polish -- Polish person there?

A: No, it was another one with me.

Q: And was this --

A: A--a very short time though was with me, because the bo -- my boss didn't

allow to keep two -- two helpers. They took her away, and tha -- someplace --

someplace else.

Q: Okay.

A: But not in Berchtesgaden, far away.

Q: Okay.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: To work.

Q: But there were other Polish people in the area?

A: In the area, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah. They were of east -- east fro -- from -- they were in east -- the ost wi -- ost,

o-s-t. They knew the Russian people.

Q: Oh, so Russians were 0-s-t?

A: Yes. Very -- very few.

Q: Okay.

A: Because this was a s -- a little village on a -- with hotels --

Q: Okay.

A: -- that people come for -- for vacations.

Q: Okay.

A: But at that time you didn't see men there, you saw only women.

Q: Now you --

A: Women and children, that they come. Some of them hiding from bic -- Berlin,

when there were bom-bombardments every day, every day. So they were running

away from those places.

Q: You arrived there in 1943, was this like -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Yes, "43, I was to the end.

Q: Okay, so this was in late "43, or in early "43? You said you were with Cecilia for

about half a year.

A: Yes, that was already deg43.

Q: "42? Okay, 743.

A: At the beginning -- beginning in -- in May.

Q: So in May --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- you had left by her. You had left her and gone to Berchtesgaden?

A: I--I came to Berchtesgaden, yeah.

Q: Berchtesgaden, May 43.

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. And you're there for another two years, til May deg45.

A: Til-- til the end, yeah.

Q: Til the end.

A: Til the end. Til American came.

Q: So let's talk a little bit before then. What -- you mentioned a little bit about the

clientele, you know, the people who came to the inn.

A: Yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: How did they behave to a Polish girl?

A: They're nice. They were very nice.

Q: Yeah?

A: They know me. They know me. I did my job.

Q: Okay.

A: And they know me, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: And ah --I was -- she had the radio, my wo --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- boss had radio. But when they left dining room, the radio was in the dining

room, and I supposed to be in the kitchen, I was always running and listening

what's going on, because she left radio going. And there were German already

losing the war -- the war. [speaks German] You know what that means? [German]

Q: [speaks German] Tell me what that means.

A: That means [German] by -- by -- we -- we cleaning -- we cleaning this place by

plan.

Q: So it means in some ways of evacuating by plan.

A: Exactly, yeah.

Q: And when you hear someone say evacuating by -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: [German] So of course I was in heaven again, hearing this.

Q: Of course, of course.

A: And I was listening like that til -- til they came to Lvov. I knew that Lvov is --

Q: [German]

A: [German]

Q: [German]

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. So it's been evacuated, which means they're retreating, they're running.

A: They're running, yes.

Q: They're running.

A: And they are running, yeah.

Q: So -- now back in the inn, how did the -- how did your bosses treat you?

A: Very good.

Q: Yeah?

A: Yeah. Very good, yeah. I ate what they -- because I have the same -- the same

plan of what I -- every German has.

Q: Okay, you had a ration card then --

A: Yes, yes.

Q: -- or something. Okay.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: So I-- Late by myself in the kitchen. No, it's -- she was from Prussia, so she

know Polish people.

Q: Uh-huh. Okay.

A: Prussia was Polish, yeah?

Q: Yeah. So you ha -- didn't have a bad experience there?

A: No, no.

Q: Okay.

A: I worked very hard, though. I had to go shopping every day. They didn't have

refrigeration. I had to -- big, big rucksack.

Q: Backpack.

A: Yeah. With two cans of milk.

Q: Oh my, mm-hm.

A: And that was a little up the hill.

Q: Okay.

A: So I- she left me. I pretended that I knew very, very little German, I was afraid

to -- to tell her that I understand everything what she talked -- shud -- what she tells

me. I was a -- a big actress in front of her.

Q: Well, that takes some effort.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Pretending, always pretending, and that was the worst part, pretending, yeah.

And so, once it was so hot, and I came, I thought the -- with the -- with the loading

this wa --I have on me. I thought I gonna faint.

Q: Okay.

A: So she said to me, remember that ich kann nicht, that word doesn't exist in

German language.

Q: Ich kann nicht.

A: Ich kann nicht. You know I remember that word, and sometimes I -- I am so

tired that I said, that word doesn't exist, you ha -- go, you have to do it.

Q: Interesting. Interesting.

A: Yeah.

Q: But in two years, your German must have really improved a lot.

A: Yes, yes, it did, it did.

Q: You know?

A: Yeah.

Q: And so by the end did you have to pretend any more?

A: I pretend that I-- I am -- when I left I didn't tell her that I am Jewish. Even when

I left. It's such a fear on me, that I didn't say that. And I left with -- when I came to The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Poland, I was looking for my family, so I will -- in Krak6ew again. So I found my

mother and my -- my sister. Then --

Q: We'll come to that, we'll come to that. I want to now go back to still this inn.

Were there any other incidents that stick out in your memory from the time you

were working there? Did you hear people say things that were surprising, unusual?

A: No, not really. Only when her sister came from Berlin.

Q: Okay.

A: Her sister run away f-- she had two little children.

Q: Okay.

A: Sh-She came to live with her.

Q: Okay.

A: So, I was glad tha -- that she's running away from the bombs, I was glad.

Q: Okay.

A: Now -- now you'll -- you'll lo -- you lost everything like we did.

Q: Yeah.

A: And when we were talking about it and I -- stupid of me, butt in and said in the --

between talking, nebby(ph). And she said, what, what is that? This is a Jewish

word, nebby(ph).

Q: The sister said this? Oh my.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: That was enough for me.

Q: Okay.

A: I said that -- that's not. I didn't know that. I didn't -- never heard that, that it's a

Jewish name. I have to make up something and apologize for it.

Q: Yeah. So --

A: So that was -- was another -- one incident. Now, I have another incident, yes. A --

one Gestapo man came -- one Gestapo man came, and -- to her part of apartment.

She has a nice dining room for herself. I came right away, listening, being near the

door, what he was talking. Of course he said in German, a-are you sure that she's a

Polish girl? So then I se -- heard her answer, what do you think she could be?

Maybe she's from east, that I am a Russian girl. No. Okay, that was a little better.

Q: So there was some kind of -- if not about you maybe in general, but there was --

you were never safe, even with these papers, or with how you looked --

A: Never, never, no.

Q: -- or -- or something like that.

A: No, never. Someone will pointed at you, someone will recognize you, someone

will say -- will -- bad words. Some Polish man that he was -- they're working outside

Q: Yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: -- said that I am walking like a Jewish girl.

Q: You're walking?

A: Walking as aj -- like a Jewish girl. So I said to that person who told me that,

said, how Jewish people walk? Don't they walk with two legs?

Q: Yeah.

A: How they walk? The Polish people have such a nose. Special nose like a dog's,

for Jewish people, to find Jewish people.

Q: That sounds quite bitter.

A: Yeah. Yeah, that was -- that was another one. I have star -- few of -- a few of

those, like -- like you -- you remind me.

Q: Did you see many army people come through? Did you see any German army

come through there, or was it a town empty of any soldiers?

A: No, no soldiers, no.

Q: No soldiers.

A: Only -- only women, children, no.

Q: And the Gestapo.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: You know, police -- polizei, polizei, yeah. Very few.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah, that -- that was nice about it.

Q: Did you ever overhear anybody say something critical of Hitler?

A: No.

Q: No.

A: No. She wasn't Catholic, she was Protestant --

Q: Uh-huh, the innkeeper, okay.

A: -- my boss. So she never went to church, no. I never heard from her heil Hitler. I

never heard from her.

Q: Okay.

A: No.

Q: You never heard one or the other?

A: No, that's right.

Q: Okay.

A: That's right. We have an -- an able -- an older -- older guy, old guy who lives with

the -- with the woman, with the wife. So he always when he saw me, griesgut(ph)

fraulein, griesgut(ph) fraulein, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: With lederhosen. Lederhosen.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Yeah.

A: Yeah.

Q: So tell me then, what was -- how did -- did you have a sense that the war was

coming to an end?

A: Yes. We knew it took -- gonna be sooner or later, it has to be. When I heard those

on the radio [speaks German] I knew it was gonna be ending.

Q: Okay.

A: It's gonna be ending, yeah.

Q: All right. And then after that, how did -- how did you experience this liberation?

What happened?

A: Experience what?

Q: Th-That is, how were you liberated?

A: How?

Q: Yeah.

A: Very simple, the -- the American came to the city.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah. Once was a bomb, once.

Q: Okay.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Few months ago -- few mo -- few months before the ending. They bombing --

maybe they knew that the Hitler has the -- the summer home there, maybe they

were looking for -- for that, for his place.

Q: Okay.

A: But maybe two, three bombs fell, that's all.

Q: Okay. And were these --

A: So---

Q: -- army -- army -- unit -- U.S. Army soldiers? Was this U.S. military that you saw

in the town?

A: The German?

Q: No, no, no, American.

A: No, no, it -- American, yes.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah. Then I -- then a--I--I knew I'm liberated. I didn't say that I am Jewish to

anybody, that was a big secret. Big secret in my life. But I knew -- then I was quiet --

th-then my nerve was quiet down. Then I knew I -- you don't have to be afraid any

more. That was in May 1945.

Q: Did they come to the inn?

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Yes. They threw her out. They threw her out, they say, we need -- you need -- we

need you villa. We need that place. They didn't what to live. She has a little tiny

home w-were -- where I live summertime, because there was no heat there.

Q: Okay.

A: With one big room, and one big room upstairs. So she came to that, to live with

me--

Q: Okay.

A: -- in that little tiny home. Was very cute. And they -- they took her whole villa.

Yeah, they threw her out.

Q: Did she say anything. Did she show her --

A: No, she didn't say anything to me. But then I thought, my God, they gonna be

maybe a few weeks on the -- they gonna ruin everything, and I have to go and clean

everything what her after -- imagine soldiers leaving --

Q: Right, right.

A: -- leaving place, how it's gonna look.

Q: An-And did they do that?

A: I left before they left.

Q: Did you say goodbye to her?

A: Yeah, I said goodbye. I still didn't tell her that I am Jewish, now.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Okay. Did you say, I'm just going home to Poland?

A: ""m going home, but with -- they were transport a lot of people together.

Q: Mm-hm.

A: And we went with very so -- maybe two -- two, three days, we were back in

Poland.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah. And I have papers that they ca -- I have a pla -- the trains and buses,

everything for nothing, because --

Q: Oh really?

A: Yeah.

Q: Because you had been a -- a forced laborer.

A: Yeah.

Q: Even if voluntary, yeah. So you go to Krakow to look for your family, and you

-- tell me, what did you find, how did you look?

A: How I look? I--I knew someone that was my aunt's -- my aunt's friends, a

lawyer.

Q: Okay.

A: And I knew where -- where he lived -- where his office was, so I went there first

-- first, and then he told me not about my mother, that -- that my aunt survived -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

survived, and he gave me the address where she is. And I went there. So she wasn't

home, only her daughter was there. So her daughter told me, oh you know, your

mother is here, your f -- your -- your sister is engaged. My sister was only 18 years

old when she married. She -- you know sh -- right away she says -- says she's

engaged.

Q: Oh my goodness.

A: I was the older one.

Q: Yeah.

A: Yeah.

Q: What news though, after so many years, what news.

A: Yeah. It's -- and she gave me the address.

Q: Okay.

A: And I - I knew a little Krakew, so I --I [indecipherable] bus, that was bus or

train -- no, not train.

Q: Tram.

A: Tramway.

Q: Street -- yeah, tramway, streetcar.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: And I was afraid how my mother will react when tush -- becu -- sh -- they didn't

know that I sur -- will survive, they didn't know that.

Q: Yeah, they didn't know what happened to you.

A: No.

Q: Okay.

A: And I was afraid, I was standing there near the door, what should I do? No, of-of

course I--I knock, and I came in. Can you imagine? Yeah.

Q: I can't imagine.

A: And my sister wasn't home that time, yeah.

Q: So what did your -- what did your mother do when she saw you?

A: Started to cry and to scream and cry and scream and hugging and kissing and

yeah. She is dead already 25 years.

Q: Had she changed? Did she look different, your mother?

A: No, no.

Q: No?

A: No, bu-- how many -- it was only four years that we didn't see each other.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Tell me, what had happened with them? When you had left them in the ghetto in

Lvov --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- what would their destiny been? What had -- where had they been taken, or

what happened with them? Your grandmoth -- your mother and your sister.

A: You -- my -- yeah, my sister --

Q: And your grandmother, yeah.

A: Yeah, my -- no, they couldn't take my grandmother, but that os -- the guy who

told me about -- about the papers --

Q: Okay.

A: -- that I could have those papers and leave, he -- they ha -- he has a -- a Polish

family who a-- how would [indecipherable] -- if you have a lot of money, they

gonna take you in.

Q: Okay.

A: And so he took them out, the ghetto wasn't closed yet, it was still open.

Q: Okay.

A: So he took my mother, my sister, and my mother's mother, my aunt.

Q: Your grandmother, mm-hm.

A: Those three people, he took them out -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: -- to that Polish people, outside po -- Lvov, outside Lvov.

Q: Okay.

A: They have a local single home. They couldn't do it in an apartment, but --

Q: Of course.

A: -- single home, nobody was around.

Q: And did they spend the war there?

A: They spend almost two years with them.

Q: Oh.

A: That's how they survive.

Q: Oh.

A: But they were not very nice to my mother, but I didn't -- I don't blame them,

because they were afraid, too. Because they thought that war will finish few

months. In few months will be over, and it took them two years, not two mo -- few

months. And they were saying, it's time, you can go. Just leave me -- leave us alone.

They feed them. They didn't have bathrooms, they had the pail. So they were afraid

too. If someone will catch them, they all will go. So I didn't -- they didn't blame

them, but wi -- they said, what the ou -- we leave, so everybody will ask, where --

where were you til now? How -- how you -- how -- what you doing here?

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: How did you --

A: They all gone.

Q: Yeah.

A: And you're here? So --

Q: You're stuck [indecipherable]

A: They will be catch anyway.

Q: Yeah.

A: Whatever you say, it's wrong. So they had to stay.

Q: And were they then liberated by the Russians?

A: Yes, by the Russian. A year before the war ended, in deg44.

Q: I see.

A: Yeah. Before that, they came out, everybody was pointing, oh Jews are coming,

the Jews are coming, because they were so pale. The legs were swollen. They were

hardly walk because they -- no exercise. They hardly walk. So they knew they be

recognized right away that the Jews are coming.

Q: So they decided to go to Krakew after the --

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah?

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Yeah. Polish people were leaving that part of -- of Poland. They were leaving on

the -- to go to the other side. Maybe they knew it's gonna be divided again, I don't

know, because it is Ukraine now. So maybe they knew about that na -- then. So

they go to Krakow, that's how we -- how we managed to meet again.

Q: And how long did you stay in Krakew?

A: Less than a year.

Q: Okay.

A: Less than a year. They started with the -- Israel. They talking -- the English

didn't want to -- her to send. When you move, move, go, go, the more the better, the

more the better. We knew that Poland wasn't the same what it was before. It wasn't

the same. So I moved with my mother. My sister had already papers to go to

Argentina with her husband, because he has the family there.

Q: Okay.

A: And we didn't know what to do. We were going to Israel.

Q: Okay. So where did you --

A: So we came to Austria to --

Q: Was that on the way?

A: -- to Czechoslovakia, to -- by t -- everything by buses, yeah.

Q: Okay, that's true, okay.

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Interview with Irena Bach

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A: N-Now where I see myself seeing those refugees from Syria, I see myself, I was

a refugee like that too, exactly the same.

Q: Yeah. So you went by buses?

A: By buses we came to -- to Vienna. We were saying -- staying in Vienna for three

weeks. And then from Vienna they say you have to go to -- to -- a little further. They

didn't want to have refugees in Vienna. Didn't look good. So we went to Salzburg.

Q: A very pretty place.

A: Very pretty. We got stuck there for five years.

Q: Really?

A: Five years we lived in 0 -- in Salzburg.

Q: So tell me --

A: Yeah, he wa -- he was there.

Q: So tell me, what happened in Salzburg? How is that you stayed --

A: I met my husband on the bus, on the German truck, passing from Poland to

Austria, passing the borders: Czechoslovak -- th -- Vienna. We met each -- well, 20

people on the bus.

Q: Okay.

A: Wa --- with my mother, with me. And we got married in Salzburg after two

years.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: So you met on a bus. You were --

A: Ona truck, on a germ --

Q: On a truck.

A: Military truck.

Q: You met on a military truck going from Germany to Austria.

A: From Poland.

Q: From Poland to --

A: Austria.

Q: -- to Austria. And --

A: And I didn't know that we gonna get stuck in Salzburg.

Q: Yeah.

A: But we liked it, we he -- liked it. We -- we was in a DP camp. DP c --

Q: And -- and were there more people from Lvov, or were you the only one --

A: A lot of people, there were three camps. Three camps in Salzburg.

Q: Okay. And --

A: And then we -- we found an apartment where was -- where we lived outside the

camp.

Q: Okay.

A: A German woman, we have -- we had the -- a room.

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Q: Okay.

A: So we were staying there, we were married, and I -- and I had my older daughter

there.

Q: Tell me --

A: And we waited for papers.

Q: Tell me --

A: Now til my -- oh, I'm sorry, I interrupt you --

Q: It's okay, no, no, no, no, I'm interrupt -- I'm ask -- I want to find out now, when

you met your husband, yeah, did he tell you about what his story had been?

A: Yes. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Q: Can you tell me that? Can you -- do you remember how it is he told you what his

story had been?

A: Yeah, he -- he went through a lot, yeah, a lot, yeah. Yeah. He was working for

the Metro Goldyn(ph) Mayer pictures, after his studying in -- in Paris and in Italy,

he was studying.

Q: He was studying in Italy as well?

A: Yes.

Q: And so when he was working for them, what happened after that?

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: S-So, the Russian people -- for them, every other person is a spy. When he works

for the Metro Goldyn(ph) Mayer, he must be a spy.

Q: Okay.

A: Because this is American industry. So they came at night, like he was dressing

on a--ina--- in his suit and in -- in shoes, and took him away. To the parents, they gi

-- the NKVD said, oh, he'll be back in the morning, he'1l be back -- back in the

morning. He never came back, of course. They took him, but they ki-- to Siberia

with the cattle --

Q: With a cattle car.

A: -- car, yes.

Q: Okay. Did he describe the journey to you?

A: Oh, he described everything, yeah.

Q: I would --

A: Then he --

Q: Yeah.

A: --sa--a--a woman -- he was there -- I don't know how long he was there in that,

in the camp, but a woman gave him a -- you have to have papers to move, you

couldn't move anyplace. She gave him papers to leave the place.

Q: How interesting. Can we cut just for a second. [break] The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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December 12, 2015

A: Yeah, but I-- I know what they say, they dig nothing. They were digging frozen

earth with the shovel. For what? What the -- never knew what they do. For nothing.

Q: Okay, so this was the work he was doing while he was in this labor camp?

A: Yeah, yes.

Q: The earth was frozen.

A: Frozen and dig there with the shovel, doing something. And people were passing

by, passing by from hunger.

Q: Oh, so they were dying from hunger.

A: They dying from hunger. There was a lot of snow. Sometimes snow, sometimes

wet snow.

Q: Okay.

A: When they were falling down, no -- nobo -- even look at them, because they were

dying in the -- in the snow.

Q: He would tell you these things?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: They were eating bark from the trees, from ho -- that was so hungry. But he was

never hungry. My husband said, I was never hungry. And I knew those people will

get sick, and I-- I kept myself not to do what they doing.

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December 12, 2015

Q: Not eat --

A: Or the oil. They have oil sitting on the soup.

Q: Yeah.

A: That wasn't real oil. I don't know, it was black -- black rings around. But some

people are terrible, when they were hungry, they're in pain. It's painful to be

hungry.

Q: Yeah. So he would talk about that.

A: Yeah.

Q: He would talk about how he saw that.

A: Yeah. And then -- then he -- what he got, the typhus. Did he tell you he got the

typhus, typhus fever?

Q: No.

A: He got typhus, he went to the hospital. They gave him a ice cold water to take a

bath first. We won't go to the bath before you don't take a bath. He was there a few

days. He was there a few days, and then they took him back by open buggy, horse

and -- horse and buggy. They didn't have cars. He had the water --

Q: Let's cut. [break] Okay, so he had typhus, and it was under those conditions that

he was taken to a place to --

A: [indecipherable] back where he was before.

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December 12, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: And then he decided, I won't survive, I won't survive here.

Q: Okay.

A: So when he -- she gave him the -- the papers --

Q: Now why would she have given him these papers?

A: I don't know why.

Q: Okay.

A: He's -- because, he said, he liked me. He was joking. I don't know why. It was

dangerous for her to do that.

Q: So she was like a camp commandant, or --

A: Yeah, something er -- a working person that cou -- that could do it.

Q: You see, one of the reasons I ask is because when Germany attacked the Soviet

Union, of course they weren't friend any more, you know, after that attack.

A: Of course, yeah.

Q: And -- and the Polish government in exile negotiated with Stalin that the Poles

who are -- the Polish -- the Poles and the Polish citizens who are in Soviet custody in

camps and prisons and labor camps all over the country, can be released. And they

were released, throughout 1940 -- late deg41, "42. So it was throughout this time. And

I'm wondering whether or not -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: I never her -- I never heard that.

Q: Yes.

A: Never heard it.

Q: Yeah.

A: Never.

Q: They were -- yeah, they were released --

A: No. There were a lot --

Q: -- now -- there were a lot.

A: A lot of those labor camps, yeah.

Q: Yeah. And some made their way -- some were able to leave the Soviet Union. So

I'm wondering whether or not this permission that she gave to him, had anything to

do with that.

A: No, no.

Q: No. It was personal.

A: Yeah.

Q: It was personal, okay.

A: Yeah. No, it has nothing to do --

Q: So she gave him papers, and what did he do then?

A: He wanted to go to Palestine.

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December 12, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: He went to Asia -- Asia?

Q: Asia.

A: Asia. Yeah, he went to --

Q: Soviet Asia.

A: -- by train, by -- by a-any means.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah. Russian, yeah, Russian issue. And then il -- then, it was within -- when the

women wa -- women are against the window that he -- here we are, he was on the --

on the train.

Q: Okay.

A: He was on the train, and only women was there, no men in. They were very nice,

those Russian women. They gave -- they knew right away that -- that he is from --

from east, or from --

Q: From the west.

A: From west, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: From west. How he looked, how he was dressed, how he looked. So they gave

him food. They gave him cheese, they gave him some -- some food. Then, I think he The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

didn't have this -- those papers expire, he didn't have papers any more. And the

NKVD was approaching --

Q: The secret police were coming, yeah.

A: -- to train, and asking for papers. Papers, papers, and he didn't have it. So he said

to the woman, I gonna hold on -- or the woman told him, you go -- can you hold on

outside the w -- the wed -- the train, on the window, outside the window, and I'm

going to stay back to the window, cover you. I don't know, one woman, or two

women were there. And that's how it happened. He wa -- he came out the -- the

train, holding on --

Q: Okay.

A: -- outside, and the train was moving, train was moving. And all of a sudden the

NKVD gay -- guy was smoking, he wanted to put the ashes at -- outside the window,

outside the window. So she said to move -- move away. And when he saw that, he

jumped out from the car. He jumped out. He said, I was so lucky that was only

grass, that I fell on the grass. He said, I was unconscious, I don't know for how

many hours, lying down, touching myself if I have still my -- my legs and my arms.

Q: Oh my goodness.

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December 12, 2015

A: That's what he has once. And then he start moving again. He didn't know -- I

didn't know what -- he didn't have any -- anything to go by which way to go, where

to go. He was going, he was walking.

Q: Do you know some of the places that he traveled through as he was -- a-after he

left this camp? Do -- you know, you say it's Russian Asia, but what would be the

place names? Did he mention this?

A: It -- was it to Tushkant(ph)? Yeah, he went to Tushkant(ph).

Q: Okay. Okay.

A: That was because he thought he gonna go through Iran to Palestine.

Q: That's the way that many of the Poles --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- were leaving the country.

A: Yeah.

Q: You know? They were joining the Polish army.

A: That's -- that's where he -- he wanted to go to [indecipherable] to the --

Q: Polish --

A: Did he tell you about that?

Q: Tell me. You tell me about that.

A: He went a few places and they didn't accept him because he was Jewish.

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December 12, 2015

Q: Mm-hm. I see. Okay.

A: He was Jewish, he didn't say we don't accept. They tell him straight, we don't.

But someplace -- one place he found that they -- they did accept him, they -- because

he went to the army.

Q: Oh, I see, so he went to the army then?

A: Yes, he went to the army.

Q: And was that the --

A: He was going with the Russian army. Russian army together with Polish army,

they were going together.

Q: I see.

A: Towards Poland, towards Poland.

Q: Okay.

A: Slowly, slowly, I don't know how many months he was in the army; that I don't

remember.

Q: All right. Did he ever get then to -- back to Lvov?

A: Yes, he went to Lvov.

Q: And he was already in the army by the time he did?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

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December 12, 2015

A: But he le -- that's what -- how far he went. He didn't go any further.

Q: Okay.

A: And he -- that -- of course, he was starting to look -- because they were talking

they're killing Jews, they're killing Jews, the Russian, but he never believed,

because they said all -- all propaganda he was talking about.

Q: Yeah.

A: He never believed in that, they were --

Q: Yeah.

A: -- that six million will -- will go. So he was looking for the parents and for the

brother. He had only one brother. And when they came to the -- where they live. So

the -- the janitor from that building couldn't believe, just -- he said, he was yelling

and yelling, his is alive, he is alive. You know who is alive? The -- then he found

out the [inaudible]

Q: What did the janitor tell him?

A: Pardon?

Q: Did the janitor tell him any details, did the janitor know what --

A: They took him. They said, I don't know tha -- they came and they took him. The

NKVD.

Q: Okay. The Germans.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Gestapo.

Q: The Gestapo.

A: They took him. That's all.

Q: All right. And then what did he do?

A: So he was in -- in Lvov for -- for I don't know how long, few -- few weeks. And

then like everybody was leaving that part of Poland, Lvov.

Q: Okay.

A: So he went to Wroclaw. Did you ever heard about that city --

Q: Yes.

A: -- Wroclaw?

Q: Yeah.

A: Yeah?

Q: But I don't remember where it is. Is it south Poland?

A: Yeah, that -- that part was Ger-German, but after the war, they became Polish.

Q: Got it, okay.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: That was Polish.

Q: Okay. And -- and then -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: And then who he did like we -- like we did. They were leaving f-- going for is --

to Palestine.

Q: Okay.

A: We going to Palestine.

Q: And that's where you met?

A: Yeah.

Q: And you ended up there five years. Why -- why -- why there, and why five years

in Salzburg? You met, you married, why did you stay there?

A: Oh why we didn't go to Israel?

Q: Mm-hm.

A: [have an aunt who [indecipherable] survive, she is for Israel, always for

Israel.

Q: Okay.

A: She was married too, in -- in Salzburg, and her husband too, very much for

Israel. And they were the first one that Israel exists by -- by Truman.

Q: Okay.

A: She loved it, she loved it, she couldn't stand the -- the climate. They lived in the

tent on the sand. We have sand and they open up a tent and her -- that -- that's the --

the beginners, they lived like that. So she wrote -- and I had already the baby, so she The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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December 12, 2015

wrote to us, don't you dare to come here. You won't survive the climate. It's so

difficult life. It's so terrible. Don't come here.

Q: I see.

A: So that was enough not to go. That's why we -- we decided to go the only place

was left is United States.

Q: And how did you get here? And by what [indecipherable]

A: We didn't -- we didn't have any sponsors, nobody.

Q: All right. Okay.

A: No -- not even a familiar face. So they said that we -- we'll have to wait for

Polish quo-quota to come to the States. So that's why we waited five years in

Salzburg to come to the -- to America.

Q: And what year did you finally arrive?

A: Finally we came, I'm thinking in *51.

Q: Okay.

A: I think was "51.

Q: Okay.

A: Yeah, my daughter was born "49, she was two years old, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: "S51.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: And then, when you got to the United States --

A: We got to Revere. Oh, you don't know the place.

Q: No, so tell me -- tell me, did you enter through New York, or did you enter

through Boston?

A: To New York, not to island, no, not the s-- no, to New York.

Q: Through New York.

A: Through New York and the -- we came by ship.

Q: Okay.

A: Took us 10 days to come here.

Q: Okay.

A: This is my toy, I'm playing with it. By -- yeah, took us 10 days. We one -- we

came here in February.

Q: Okay.

A: We went through English channel. Do you know where the English channel go --

by ship? I thought we gonna drown there.

Q: Really? It was --

A: Unbelievable.

Q: Yeah?

A: It was so terrible, and Joe was -- The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: High waves?

A: --and Joseph was so sick, you can't believe it. He was 10 days with the

grapefruits on the head, and -- and lemons. That's how he lived in -- on the ship.

Q: Oh my goodness.

A: Yeah, and my daughter was eating apples. I was sick too, and she was sit -- she

was all right. She was with me in the bed. They separated men from women. So she

was sitting and eating apples, and that's how she survived. Thank God, we were --

went through Halifax. Through Halifax we went through to New York. And in

New York I saw people who are -- someone is waiting for them, relatives, some

friends. They hugging and kissing and happy. And I was sitting on my -- on our

baggage --

Q: Your suitcases.

A: -- and ---and crying. And crying, I want to go back. I said, I want to go back to

Europe. I don't know the language, I don't know anybody. What we gonna do with

the -- no money, no language, no -- no relative.

Q: So what happened?

A: The worst thing is no language. He knew five languages, but not -- not English.

Q: Yeah.

A: This is when you are deaf and dumb, it's -- it's unbelievable.

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December 12, 2015

Q: So tell me what happened.

A: So he said, you can't go back, nobody will take you back. So we -- we went

through the fil -- Jewish philanthropy.

Q: Okay.

A: It used to be Joint, calling Joint.

Q: That's right. Okay.

A: So, I said, I want to stay in New York. So he said, no, you can't stay in New

York. Don't you know your papers saying you're going to Boston? That's what

your de-destiny is, Boston. Be happy, because this is a European -- a European city,

more than any other.

Q: Who told --

A: More than any other.

Q: Who told you that, the Joint representative?

A: No, s -- in-- even in Salzburg they were --

Q: Even in Salzburg, yeah?

A: --in Europe they were telling, yeah.

Q: Yeah?

A: They -- they don't have the special accent what others south -- south of States. So

we have no -- no -- I had to go to Boston.

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December 12, 2015

Q: And was it true? Was it true that it was more a European city?

A: I don't know. I can't compare with the other cities, so I don't know.

Q: Okay.

A: But it's a nice city.

Q: And you've lived here ever since.

A: I fo --I could -- Ic -- I wish that the winter won't be so strong, but this winter is

beautiful.

Q: So far it is, yes.

A: Yeah.

Q: So far it is.

A: So far wa -- I have -- I'm afraid we're gonna pay for it in January and February.

Q: You never know. You never know. So when you got here then, how did you set

up your lives, how did you raise your children?

A: So the Joint -- the Joint said, you ha -- this is the address, this is the address in wi

-- you have a room there. And yeah, we went there, we'll have a room. The -- we

didn't have a bed for the baby, the be -- she was bed -- double bed that she was

sleeping between. And because I -- later people come and they have apartments, and

they have for the children prepared things. Okay, we didn't have it. And then right

away the next day, they have office, the Joint office, to come in. They gave him the The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

paper to look for the job. This is the paper, go here, there, here, you see it, they --

who get it -- who gil -- who will --

Q: Hire him.

A: Fire you.

Q: Hire you.

A: Fired you, yeah.

Q: Hire, hire, hire, yeah.

A: In the -- one month. That's all what they gave us 27 dollars a week to survive.

Q: Wow. Wow.

A: And he found a job, wa -- jumping from one job to the next, from one to the next

til he found one that he was in charge o-of a shipping department. He was there for

10 years. And I went to -- we have a da -- another daughter. And after -- after a few

years, I went to work too. I was a salesgirl.

Q: Where?

A: Maybe you -- no, you are not from Boston, so you don't know the name.

Q: What?

A: Do you know Filene's?

Q: Of course I know Filene's.

A: You know Filene's? I was there 40 years.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Oh my. Oh my.

A: Yeah, I retired from Filene's.

Q: Filene's was an institution.

A: Now Ma --- Macy's, yeah.

Q: Yeah. And what are the names of your children?

A: Naomi.

Q: Okay.

A: Naomi's my older one, and Anita is the younger -- or -- she is Anita.

Q: Anita. And then your husband worked for 10 years in the shipping department?

Did he ever go out on his own, or did he have another job after that?

A: No. He will try real estate, he made the license for the real estate, but was very

difficult -- difficult to -- with that.

Q: Okay.

A: He was from one job to another one.

Q: Okay.

A: We survived. We survived. Wasn't ris -- wasn't easy, but we survive.

Q: Did you ever go back to Poland?

A: No. I-I wouldn't go back to where the -- to Lvov anyway.

Q: Yeah.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: And that's the first. And secondly, I don't have anybody.

Q: Yeah.

A: I don't have anybody to go to.

Q: Did you tell your children about your story, about what you went through?

A: Yeah, my -- my grandson knows from -- not my -- my story he didn't go -- know

too much, but my husband yeah, he t -- he tell them.

Q: Yeah. Your grandson, he told your grandson. But what about your girls as they

were growing up, did you tell them?

A: Very little. Very little, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: They knew that we were newcomers. Th-They knew we're newcomers, yeah.

Was -- I spoke to my older daughter German because we were in Austria five years.

Q: That's right.

A: So I spoke German to her, and she caught up very quickly English, she answered

English to me.

Q: Yeah.

A: So we learn a lot from the kids.

Q: Yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: And from television, too. We -- I didn't go -- I went to evening school to learn the

-- for citizen, for ci -- to --

Q: Uh-huh, for citizenship.

A: -- to -- for citizen. So I knew the history very, very well, I was very interested.

Now I forgot everything, but I knew everything, really was very interesting. And

after five years, to the date, we became citizen.

Q: That's wonderful.

A: Yeah.

Q: That's wonderful.

A: And after that I started to learn driving license.

Q: Uh-huh. Well the -- we have to have your priorities.

A: Yeah.

Q: First the citizenship.

A: Yes, the citizen, that was the -- from the beginning.

Q: Yeah. Is there anything you'd like to add to what we've talked about today, that

you think is important for us to know?

A: I don't know if it's important of -- to me it's important that --

Q: Please.

A: --I love the country.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Okay. Thank you. That is very important. Thank you for saying that.

A: It's very important to me, because it's such a freedom.

Q: That's what you have felt here. Yeah.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. Thank you. Thank you Mrs. Bach. And with that, this concludes the

United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Mrs. Irene -- Irena

Bach -- Schwettzer(ph) Bach, on December 12", 2015, in Chelsea,

Massachusetts.

A: Okay, thank you. Thank you.

Q: Thank you very much.

A: Thank you very much. Nice meeting you. [break]

Q: Okay, so Mrs. Bach, tell me, what is it that you are holding up right now, what is

that?

A: Those are my papers wh-when I was in Germany, Germany. I -- I bought those

papers there. Not -- not my real name.

Q: Okay.

A: And that's how I -- on those papers are very important, for almost three years.

Q: Okay. So were these papers produced in Poland by that man?

A: Yes, yes.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Okay.

A: They're produced by Polish people.

Q: By Polish people for you --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- and -- and they saved your life.

A: Yes, yes.

Q: Okay, okay. And that is a picture of you as a young -- as a young girl, and it has

your name down as Irena Starzewska, and that you are a Roman Catholic.

A: Yes, Roman Catholic, yes.

Q: Okay. Okay, thank you. All right. Okay, so Mrs. Irena, tell me, what is this

document here?

A: This is what I got when I was working already in Germany.

Q: Okay. I see that it has a different birthdate, it makes you three years older.

A: Yes, yes, because I-- I was too young, afraid that they won't take me to -- or -- or

allow me to work, and I want -- I wanted to be work -- to be working, o-otherwise I

don't think so I would survive.

Q: Okay. Yeah, you needed to be -- make yourself older --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- in order to be able -- yeah.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: To --to su-- yeah, to work and to survive.

Q: Okay. Thank you. Okay, Mrs. Lrena, tell me, what is this piece of paper. It says

military government of Germany, and can you describe it to me?

A: I cou --I don't remember.

Q: Okay. It -- your -- you're seen as a displaced person, and you still have your false

name, Irena Starzewska, in August of 1945.

A: Yes.

Q: Why would you still have kept your false name?

A: Because I was still in Germany, I was still in Berchtesgaden, so I didn't want

to openly say that I am Jewish. I wanted to go back to Poland, and in Poland I

would tell everybody the truth, and ask for -- for papers with my real name.

Q: I see.

A: So I wanted to -- to keep that til the last minute.

Q: I see. And yes, it's dated 13" of August, 1945.

A: 7deg45.

Q: Yeah.

A: Yeah, I think I came to Poland about Oc-October.

Q: Okay. And I see, it's Landcries(ph), in German it says Berchtesgaden, and

that's where it's given out.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Yeah.

Q: By the U.S. military authority. Captain William Gilson(ph). Okay. Thank you

very much. Okay, so tell me, what is this photograph of?

A: This is my uniform when I went to gymnasium.

Q: In Poland?

A: In Poland, yes, in Lvov.

Q: Okay, I see it's dated 1941.

A: deg41, yeah.

Q: And that was the uniform that you would have for school?

A: Yes, yeah.

Q: Your hairdo is also very beautiful. Did you have long hair?

A: Very long, to my waist.

Q: Really?

A: Yeah.

Q: And was this the kind of hair that you had when you were working in

Berchtesgaden?

A: Exactly, yes, yeah.

Q: Okay. And tell me -- what did you tell me that it did? You --

A: They saved my life.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Yeah. And tell me how.

A: My hairdo be -- because in Bavaria, the women are wear -- having that hairdos.

Q: Okay, so you looked like a -- a local girl.

A: Yeah, I looked, yeah.

Q: Okay. Thank you. Okay, so Mrs. Irena, who is this in these photographs?

A: Yeah, this is my husband Joseph.

Q: And his middle name?

A: Steven.

Q: So it's Joseph Steven --

A: Steven Bach.

Q: All right.

A: B-a-c-h.

Q: And thi -- it looks like they're taken at different times.

A: Oh yeah.

Q: All right.

A: Yeah, here he was much younger, he is in college, and here is already in his 30s.

Q: All right. And you met him when he was in his 30s?

A: Thirties, yes.

Q: All right. So he wa -- how old were you when you got married?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Iwas 22.

Q: And he was -- how old was he?

A: Iwas 16 years different.

Q: He was 38. Okay. All right, thank you. So Mrs. Irena, tell me, what is this photo

about. Tell me what is this photo.

A: This is our wedding reception.

Q: Tell me, what was your wedding date, when did you get married, the date.

A: I don't remember. [laughter] That was -- that was in February, that I

[indecipherable] February on a religion -- religion wedding.

Q: It was a religious wedding.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: And -- and in June, we went for the papers to -- in c -- city hall, for city hall

papers.

Q: Okay. So was this in 1947 or "48 that you got married?

A: deg48.

Q: 1948.

A: Yeah.

Q: In Salzburg.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: In Salzburg, yes.

Q: All right. All right.

A: [indecipherable] remember the name, Mer-Merterstrasse -- Mertenstrasse

sieben, seven

Q: Okay, Mertenstrasse seven.

A: Seven.

Q: In Salzburg. Okay, thank you. And tell me, what is this photo?

A: I think this is the same -- the same one. A little more people were in it.

Q: I see you and your husband in the distance, in the place of honor.

A: Yeah.

Q: And are these mostly survivors, who would have also been at the wedding?

A: Yes, they were survivors, yes.

Q: All right. Thank you very much. Okay, so tell me, who is in this photo?

A: There is my mother with her sister [indecipherable] my sister, my sister's

husband, my aunt and my nephew.

Q: Okay. I'm going to go from left to right, and it looks like your aunt is the most

on the left. What was her name?

A: Toni(ph).

Q: Toni(ph). And her last name?

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: Toni Harcovy(ph).

Q: Toni Harcovy(ph)was your ma --

A: Harcovy(ph), yes.

Q: And then your sister's husband?

A: Husband was Lucie(ph) Nathan(ph) -- Nathan(ph) Shuman(ph).

Q: Okay. And your mother's name?

A: My --p-- Pearl -- Paula -- Paula Schwettzer(ph).

Q: And your sister?

A: My sister was Janina(ph) Shuman(ph).

Q: Janina(ph) Shuman(ph). And down below, the little boy?

A: He is now a doctor, na -- ri-- Ricardo. Ricardo Shuman(ph).

Q: So he wa -- th -- her son?

A: This her son, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: He lives in Argentina, in Buenos Aires.

Q: Okay. And this photo I think was taken in 1953? Yeah.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: Must be. Yeah, "53.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. 128

Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

Q: Thank you. Thank you for showing that. Okay, tell me what is this photo of?

A: The wa -- my parents in ro -- in Poland, Lvov.

Q: And about what year do you think it would be taken?

A: That was before the war, maybe 1938.

Q: So soon before the war, not -- not -- not very --

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. And who is -- it's your mother, Pearl?

A: Pearl.

Q: And your father --

A: S-S-Sol -- Solomon.

Q: Uh-huh, Solomon Schwettzer(ph).

A: He was a very sharp dresser, he loved to get dressed.

Q: They both do. They both look very, very dapper.

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. Do you know where it was taken in Poland? It looks like it's in a park.

A: It was in -- in Krynica.

Q: Ah, the place that you used to go for vacations.

A: Yes, yes. Yeah.

Q: Krynica.

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Interview with Irena Bach

December 12, 2015

A: And she was drink -- she always wanted to lose weight, so she was drinking

some special water.

Q: Okay. Okay, thank you.

Conclusion of Interview

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The interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Information about access and usage rights can be found in the catalog record.