Document

PREFACE The following interview is part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's collection of oral testimonies. Rights to the interview are held by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.

The reader should bear in mind that this is a verbatim transcript of spoken, rather than written prose. This transcript has been neither checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy, and therefore, it is possible that there are errors. As a result, nothing should be quoted or used from this transcript without first checking it against the taped interview.

Transcribed by Calvin J. Everson, RPR, CRR, National Court Reporters Association.

JUTTA PREUSS July 13, 2014

Q: This is a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Mrs. Jutta Preuss on July 13th, 2014. Thank you very, very much, Mrs. Preuss, for agreeing to speak with us today. I would like to start by asking you the same questions that I did Mr.

Preuss. Could you tell me your date of birth, where you were born, and when you were born, and your name at birth?

A: April 11, 1923, in Berlin, Germany. My maiden name is Popower, P-O-P-O- W-E-R.

Q: And was your family originally from Germany or from someplace else?

A: No, my father came to Germany during the -- must have been the early Twenties. He was taken to the first war, and he was taken to the Army, and he didn't like it. He said, "What I do in the Army, to kill people that I didn't met, that didn't do anything bad to me?" And he escaped. Then they looked for him and put him in the prison, and the prison -- I don't know how he came out or if he escaped, I don't know, I don't remember, and he came to Germany.

Q: Was he in the Russian Army or was he in the German Army?

A: No, in the time when -- when he lived there, Poland was Russia, occupied from the Russians.

Q: Uh-huh. So he lived in the eastern part of Poland that had been part of the Russian Empire?

A: No, he lived -- he was born in Varso(ph).

Q: Uh-huh. In Russia.

A: And his family come from Kokarus(ph).

Q: Isee. Isee. And -- and your mother?

A: My mother was Polish.

Q: And what was her maiden name?

A: Her maiden name, Ruchla Bielinski(ph).

Q: Ruchla was her first name?

A: Yeah.

Q: And her last name was Bielinski(ph)?

A: Yes.

Q: And what was your father's first name?

ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton

A: Abraham.

Q: Abraham Popower?

A: Yeah.

Q: And had it been the Tsarist Army he had been in?

A: What?

Q: Was he -- was he drafted into the Russian Army?

A: To the Russian Army, yeah.

Q: Uh-huh. And that's where --

A: No, in this time he was in Poland born, but Poland was part of Russia.

Q: Isee. Isee. And where did your parents meet?

A: I don't know. Maybe in Russia.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: But I have -- had a brother. He died in the meantime. He was nearly four years older than me, and he was born in Russia.

Q: Did you know him?

A: Of course.

Q: Oh, I see, he didn't die as an infant. He died as an adult, so --

A: Yeah, he died, he was 70 years old.

Q: Isee. I see. So it was -- when you were born in Berlin, --

A: Yes.

Q: -- it was actually that the family had very recently moved there?

A: Idon't know.

Q: Okay.

A: Idon't know. I think my father, maybe he was -- maybe. I don't know.

Q: All right.

A: I-- with my mother I met when I was nearly 18 years old. I did not have a relationship with her before.

Q: Well, explain this to us. How did it happen?

A: My parents divorced after I was born when my father did not believe that I was his daughter, and -- but then I -- they put me with a couple they paid monthly to raise me, and I was by then nearly one-and-a-half years, and my mother was a picaflor. (Laughing.)

Q: What does that mean? What does that mean?

A: He liked all the flowers, men flowers.

Q: Isee. I see.

A: And so he -- he could not believe that I was his daughter, but when I grow a little bit older, I was the one what looked more like him. I had the same nose.

Q: Oh. So that's how they -- you know, in those days they didn't have DNA testing.

A: No, no.

Q: Yeah.

A: And my father always said he had a Catholic nose, and I am born with a Catholic nose like he had. So my -- they divorced, and my mother disappeared. I think she went to Brazil. She lived in Brazil then. And years later, my father had -- she had a son, no, my brother, and one day when the -- he went out, and he saw his son looking between garbage; said, "What you are looking?" He said he is hungry. "You are hungry. Where is your mother?" "At home." "And why you are here?" "She sent me out." And then my father went to the judge and said, "I like to have the right of my children." So my mother -- they took her right away as mother to take care of the children, and he raised me and his -- my brother.

Q: That sounds like a very sad beginning.

A: Yeah. I never had a mother.

Q: No.

A: And I think I can tell you I am grateful to her that she sent me the documents that I could come out from Germany, but she was a person that is very hard to believe.

Q: Itis. It is. Tell me this, was your father -- were you close to your father as you were growing up?

A: Oh, my father loved his children.

Q: Okay. And what are some of your earliest memories?

A: My earliest memory? I had varied caretakers, what my father took for the half of his house and for to raise his children. We spoke only German at home. I didn't learn another language. And some of them I liked much, but some not so. We had some of them that teach me from Jesus Christos. I think they wanted to convert me when I was five years old.

Q: So you would have -- you would have caretakers who wanted to -- who wanted to save your soul, in other words?

A: Yeah. (Laughing.) It is funny. And -- but we are not religious at home.

Q: Uh-huh. That was my next question. So your father didn't go to synagogue much?

A: Idon't know. I don't know. Maybe when he came to Germany and we lived on the strasse, and the ones near synagogue that he went by my brother, he took him to

the synagogue, and I remember I must have been three or four years old, and my brother went to the synagogue, and they called him to the Torah -- you know what is the Torah?

Q: Uh-huh. Explain.

A: And then I cried I like to go also, so they took me. And when they called my brother to the Torah, I said, "I like to go, too," so next time they put me pants on that I looked like a little boy.

Q: Really. Did your father have any of his own family in Berlin?

A: No. He had a cousin -- an uncle, yeah. It was a brother from his father.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And -- but not a relationship because my father came to Germany, maybe he didn't speak German then and they made fun of him.

Q: Oh, I see. So he was -- I mean, he was actually quite alone in raising you and your brother? There wasn't any large -- you know, extended family to help?

A: No. But, you know, neighbors, children from neighbors that were my age. And then my father, he had a store, a men's store, and he had a partner, and they lived near us, and they had three children, and the lady of the house, she always say about me, "She is sweet like sugar, but she is bitter like galla(ph)."

Q: Really?

A: Yeah. But her daughter what was more or less my age, maybe a year older, was not - - was a little bit handicapped --

Q: Oh.

A: -- mentally.

Q: Oh, I see. So she was sad that --

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah.

A: But they divided. The partner moved out to another place, and then he went to France. And funny thing, when we are in Montevideo, was it, or Buenos Aires -- I think in Buenos Aires.

Q: Uh-huh. When you were there, yeah?

A: Yeah, we had a young man what lived in the neighborhood, one day he came to me, "Jutta, you know the lady what knows you when you was a child?" I said, "Oh." And, "Yes, ." "Ahh," I say, "yeah, I remember the name." So I went and she was in Buenos Aires, they lived in Buenos Aires, and her older daughter died in France. She was older.

Q: The one who was handicapped?

A: That was handicapped? Oh, she find a guy what married her.

Q: Oh. Oh.

A: And she was not very good -- good looking, and she -- and I went to the wedding.

Q: Oh, did you?

A: With my mother's husband.

Q: But -- so who was the lady who had helped raise you who ended up in Buenos Aires, what was her name?

A: What raised me? I had several that raise us. I had one that is my half-sister, my father had a daughter with her; her name was Johanna.

Q: Isee.

A: Johanna Sashovec(ph). But she -- he had a daughter that I'm still -- I met the daughter more or less -- Werner, + when they came to us? Maybe 28, no, 27, and I know about her, and when I was a child -- she is six years younger than me. When I was a child, she said, "Jutta, what you like, a brother or a sister?" So I did not understand much, but then it came to me.

Q: Isee. So there was -- there was a lady who came into your father's life?

A: Yeah. And she took -- I have -- no, I have not a photo from her, I think. And she put me -- when I was six years old, she put me to school, and she bought me the big -- what you have when you go to school, how do you say, the sac d'etude.

Q: Oh, yeah, sort of like a little backpack?

A: Yeah. I had a big one when you see the photo. She took care of me, but since my father didn't like to marry her, her mother came and took her back to -- from where they came, Senftenberg.

Q: Uh-huh. So your father didn't remarry ever?

A: Yeah, then he remarried when I was -- in 1934.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: He went -- a single man, and he met a lady there in the cafe, and I think they danced, I don't know, and she was not Jewish, but, I don't know, she said she would convert to Judaism when he would marry her. And I don't know, my father married her, and they had twins, but one of the twins died in , and my father was not there. My father went -- after the Kristallnacht, he went underground.

Q: We will talk about that. Right now I want to talk a little bit more about your childhood and -- what part of Berlin were you living in?

A: It was +, which was in this time Berlin in vier.

Q: N4, in other words?

A: Yeah.

Q: So it sound like to was sort of in the middle of Berlin?

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: What did the neighborhood look like?

A: It was a mixed neighborhood. Everybody was friends with friend, what I remember.

Q: Uh-huh. Was it a working class neighborhood?

A: Yeah, a working class.

Q: Okay. Did you live in an apartment building?

A: We had -- we had -- my father had a store, and hinder the store was an apartment.

Q: Uh-huh. Behind the store?

A: Behind the store, yeah.

Q: And this is the store that he had a partner with at one point?

A: Yeah, when they started. He came from another -- from Berlin, __strasse, ___strasse, I think he lived before.

Q: Okay. And was your father a tailor? When you say he had a men's store --

A: No, he was a kaufmann.

Q: Okay. So, I mean, he was a -- he was a store -- okay --

A: Storekeeper, yes.

Q: Astorekeeper. So it was all men's goods?

A: All men's store, yeah.

Q: Okay. Okay. Did he make a decent living?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: Did -- did you have anybody -- I mean, did you have a cook at home, too, to help prepare the meals?

A: No, we had a housekeeper. Housekeeper, they lived with us; they cooked and took care of us.

Q: Uh-huh. How would you characterize your childhood?

A: Sometimes a little bit lonely; sometimes okay. I was -- as I was a child was observed.

Q: You mean --

A: Iwas always quiet and looking at people and seeing what they do.

Q: Would you say that you were a happy child or not?

A: I[-- I think I was a happy child. And I loved children. Children, they love people.

Q: Did you feel the lack of having a mother?

A: I didn't know what it meant in this time.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: They divorced when I was still by those people in care.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And I met my mother the first time I think I was four or five years old, and my brother came and took me by the hand and run with me, I didn't know why, but since I

was little, they catch me and took me back and said, "You have visitor, Jutta. This is your mama." I looked at her, didn't know what to do with her.

Q: What did she look like to you, do you remember?

A: I don't remember.

Q: And how --

A: Then a few years later I saw her once again. She looked to reconnect with her son, but was not very interested in her daughter.

Q: Oh. And is this before -- did she still live in Berlin?

A: What?

Q: Did she -- when she didn't live with you anymore, --

A: No, she lived -- she had brothers in Berlin.

Q: Isee.

A: Yeah. They were in ?sus? -- how do you say, Schneider, :

Q: How did you start school? Did you start school at age six or so?

A: Yeah, 1929, when I was six.

Q: Okay. What kind of memories do you have from school?

A: From school, it was elementary school from the state, and I was very good in math. I learned it fast. | was a good learner in everything. The only thing, I couldn't sing. I didn't have the voice, so they put always in my -- how would you say .

Q: In my report card?

A: Yeah, they put always a five in as a bad note. And then in later years they say, "No, Jutta, you are such a good student, it look no good the five, we will put you have not gut heren."

Q: Ah, so you don't have good hearing, yeah. Did you -- what kind of personality was your father? Tell me a little bit about him?

A: My father was a very good person, very -- he liked people. He liked -- on Friday, Saturday came all the -- what came and asked for food. He always prepared a -- he was prepared and gave them the food, and then one day some of them said, "Oh, we don't like food, we would prefer the money," you know, for drinking.

Q: Yeah, of course.

A: So my father, "If you prefer money, then you have to go somewhere else."

Q: Yeah.

A: No, he was a gentleman.

Q: And did he spend time with you when he could?

A: Oh, yes, yes. And I remember the movie was not spoken, it was written.

Q: Yeah.

A: And I didn't go to school yet, I couldn't read, but my brother was nearly four years older, so he knew. My father told him, "Take her to school, take her with you so she can see it, too." And my brother didn't like it why he had to read me then what was written there.

Q: So when he went to the cinema, you wanted to go as well?

A: Yeah.

Q: And he had to then tell you what was going on?

A: Yeah. He said, "Learn to read," but I didn't go to school yet.

Q: Yeah. Were you close with your brother?

A: Iwas closer to him than he to me.

Q: Isee. I see. Did that change at some point? When children are small --

A: No. No, my brother left the house when he was 18 years on his birthday. When my father married, and my stepmother, she criticized my brother too much, and my father and my brother were very close in the beginning. And so he left. She criticized him.

And if he could, he defended me.

Q: What did he do?

A: Defend me.

Q: He defended you, your brother did?

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah.

A: My stepmother, she liked that I clean this and this, and I was 10 -- 10 years old, 11 years old. So he said, "Why she cannot have friends to come?" "She has to clean the house."

Q: So in some ways your stepmother -- do you think it was a little bit like Cinderella, Ashenputtel?

A: No, my father didn't realize this.

Q: Was your stepmother German, did you say, or Jewish?

A: My stepmother was German, yeah, and she converted to Judaism, told her to and to get a husband.

Q: Yeah.

A: So --

Q: Were you ever close to her or not?

A: Iwas not close and I was not far, but I hold my distance. But she has -- she had a sister; I liked her sister. She was married without children. And later, when I started to earn money, I gave her all the money, my stepmother, and I had other people -- other lady, she had a little store, and once a week mostly she called me if I not make the bookkeeping, I was good in numbers, and she gave me money. I didn't ask for the money, but she gave me. And one day she asked me, "Jutta, what you do with the money?" I said, "I save it." "Oh, where do you save it?" With my -- with the sister for my stepmother. And later, much later, when I already was married and far away, she -- when I spoke -- she called -- no, I called her, and she said, "You made money with her, and you give it to my sister, not to me." People are strange.

Q: Yeah.

A: But I was glad that I saved the money that when I needed it to leave Germany, I didn't have money, so I had money. I had to pay for the -- go to Hamburg to get my visa and a lot of things, taxicab, and for the -- to help me with the luggage and things like this, each one like to be paid.

Q: Well, tell -- well, that sort of begs the question of couldn't your father help pay for these expenses?

A: My father was not there. My father went underground, and then he went to France and lived in France.

Q: Isee. So we will come to that part. Let's -- let's talk a little bit about again school life and -- and your neighborhood in Berlin.

A: Yeah, [had a lot of friends, older, younger, yeah. We were mixed, all mixed. But then afterward that Hitler came and took the Jews, we were more together than the other ones. I had -- in the building where we lived, above us lived a family. I don't know, I

never saw the father, so maybe from divorce or she didn't have a father, and she -- they always invited me, and she played with me, and her grandmother was very nice, "Jutta, come up, come up." And then after Hitler, she from the window told, "Oh, Jews. Oh, Jews." So I felt a little bit put by side.

Q: Ofcourse. Of course.

A: Really, I didn't know what was the difference. My father was not a religious man.

He was an atheo.

Q: He was atheist, you say?

A: My father was an atheo. He didn't believe in nothing.

Q: Isee. But for a small child, such things are both painful and confusing.

A: Yeah, it is. But then when I became eight years, nine years, I heard from + organization, and I had other one that took me with them, so I was interested in Judaism.

Q: So your parents; that is, your father and your stepmother, tried to find other playmates for you and other activities for you?

A: Oh, I looked for myself.

Q: Oh, you did.

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. How did your neighborhood change by the 19 --

A: I think the neighborhood was mostly the same.

Q: Yeah?

A: Yeah. It was working class here. It was mostly the same. It changed a little bit when my father married.

Q: And that was what year?

A: He married in December 1934.

Q: Okay.

A: It was already forbidden Jews to marry Christians, but she insisted and she converted to Judaism, and she went to in Prague, she lived three months to get the papers, and then she said to my father to come to Prague, that they can marry.

Q: And what was her name?

A: Elna(ph) Shilla(ph).

Q: Elna(ph) Shilla(ph)?

A: Yeah.

Q: And you said that you had a half-sister --

A: Yeah. No, this is from the other lady.

Q: From the other lady?

A: Yeah. Really, I met my half-sister from the other lady when we lived in Argentina, and I invited her to come to Argentina so she could live with us if she likes a year, so I met her, and I brought her to my brother, too. So it is funny, we sent her the money to come, and then he went and paid also, but he was not a big giver, but he didn't like to look shabby.

Q: Yeah.

A: And she was a year with us.

Q: And she lived -- did she grow up with her mother?

A: Yeah. And the mother later married, and she had from the -- the mother had another daughter and a son.

Q: And did they live far from you?

A: Yeah. Senftenberg.

Q: Senftenberg?

A: Idon't know who -- Werner?

WERNER PREUSS: Near Berlin.

Q: Okay.

A: Itis not too far away from Berlin.

Q: Okay.

A: Iremember my father sent each month the money for the girl, 40 Marks, but when -- when he left Germany, he -- nobody sent more money.

Q: Was -- was -- was her mother Jewish?

A: No, no.

Q: Also not. And you --

A: They are nice people.

Q: Pardon?

A: They are very nice people. And when she went to Senftenberg for vacation, she always took me with her.

Q: Oh.

A: Isay to her "tante."

Q: That's to -- to your half-sister's mother?

A: What?

Q: You said you would say -- you would call your half-sister's mother "tante," yes?

A: Yeah.

Q: What was her name?

A: She was no tante.

Q: No, no, no, but what was her name, her full name?

A: Johanna -- Johanna, and maiden name Sashovec(ph).

Q: Sashovec. Johanna Sashovec.

A: They come -- I think they are from Posen.

Q: Isee. Your father you said at one point -- your father had this business -- the store together with somebody else, but then that person left?

A: Yeah, yeah, they divided, and the other, he opened up a store, the same store a few blocks away, but must be that he didn't go away with him, they left Germany and went to France. His wife had family in France. And then after years I met her again in Buenos Aires, and they told me that they came to South America, and the older daughter died.

Q: Isee. The one who had been handicapped?

A: No, this was a second one. She was more or less my age. The older daughter was three years older than me, three or four years.

Q: Did your father have business difficulties after 1933, after Hitler comes to power?

A: No, in'38 to -- when was the Christmas -- the glass?

Q: Kristallnacht.

A: Kristallnacht. People came to ?streiten lang? and cried against the Jews, "Oh, that's a Jewish store." But there were some between those people that said, "No, come, come, come, +," so it was not destroyed.

Q: Isee. That's unusual.

A: Yeah. But after, my father didn't open up again.

Q: Isee. So he was able to maintain the store until Kristallnacht, and after that no?

A: No, he closed it. No, they didn't destroy it.

Q: Okay. But here is my question. Between 1933 and 1938, was it harder for him to make a living?

A: No. It was okay.

Q: It was okay?

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. How come he was in hiding?

A: Why -- it came a time where they went and looked for Jewish men to take them to Sachsenhausen, and a lot of -- a lot of what he met disappeared in Sachsenhausen, so he disappeared, too, but not at Sachsenhausen. He went underground.

Q: How long did he stay away?

A: Okay. When he was crossing the to --I think to Bergen somewhere, they catched him and they sent him back to Berlin, and then he had to go every week to the police that he was there.

Q: So he had to register with the police --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- every week?

A: But after -- I don't know how long it took, a few months maybe, he didn't need to go anymore, but then before the war -- maybe four or five months before the war he disappeared again, but the store was closed. He didn't open it up after Kristallnacht, so --

Q: So how did you eat? How did you live?

A: Okay. He made it -- he made the business without a store.

Q: Isee.

A: Yeah. He bought and sold to other stores.

Q: Uh-huh. So he became more like a wholesaler --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- rather than to -- direct to customers?

A: Yeah. And we had a lot of -- my father had friends what was not Jewish, and one of them said, "Abraham, why you don't convert? I spoke with the vater."

Q: "I spoke with the priest"?

A: Yeah, it was a priest, but my father was not interested. He didn't believe in one; how he would believe in another one.

Q: Well, yeah, that is logical. That makes sense.

A: Yeah.

Q: Did his manner change? Did he -- did the pressure show on him of all these things that were going on?

A: Maybe. Maybe.

Q: Did you see this change at home?

A: Okay. Since he had not a wife at home, he liked to go out and play cards.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Inthe cafe, cafe Moka Eftiin

Q: Uh-huh. That's before he married your stepmother?

A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. And then --

A: My stepmother, and then she organized it to play the cards at home, then so her father came and somebody else from her came, and my father learned Schach. Schach.

Q: Oh, Chess?

A: Yeah. So they played Chess. And then when they married, they came -- always came the relatives from her for dinner. I thinks it better in our house or looked to save money. And they sent me out to buy in the feinkost.

Q: In the good food, yeah.

A: Yeah. And bring this, and bring this. And this was after hours, maybe it was 7:30, 8:00. And then when Hitler was there, they always go, "Oh, Hitler, we will have each one a car for free, the auto."

Q: Really.

A: Yeah.

Q: That's what people would be saying in the streets?

A: Yeah, when the Germans were winning the war.

Q: Were you -- when you were a teenage girl in the 1930s, like a young teenage girl, were you frightened to go out on the streets after Hitler came to power?

A: No, I was not one what like to go out if its dark.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: +, but I -- I was not an unafraid adventurer.

Q: Uh-huh. Did --

A: Iwasa house girl. I liked to read.

Q: Well, it also sounds that as if -- did you feel somewhat abandoned; that is, when your stepmother came on the scene, did your father's attention --

A: No, she was jealous of my brother, and -- and for me, she looked that she has somebody what helps with the housekeeping. Even you know what I didn't like, she had a very nice mother, no, and the mother came every day to us, and she let her wash the dishes and all this. I think it was terrible. And all for food? So I don't know if the people had money.

Q: I don't understand. Can you repeat this. Her mother would come every single day?

A: Yeah, every single day to help her and to wash and to iron, and she was madam.

Q: Isee. I see. So she got other people to do those household chores?

A: Yeah, what -- when she found something, yeah.

Q: When -- when Krystallnacht came around, you were already about 15 years old?

A: Yeah, I was working. I was a kaufmannischer lehrling in a big store, in household appliances. Nota store. It was for major --

Q: It was wholesale is that?

A: Yeah, yeah, you could buy there. And then was Krystallnacht, and after this the -- the boss came to me and said, "Jutta, my wife works in the -- to help young people who went and moved to London for education, and so she would take care of you." And I said to my father, "Papa, they will take care of me and I can go to London and learn English and this and that." "No. How would you go to England?" He didn't allow it.

Q: Oh. Oh. So they -- they had offered you a way of leaving?

A: Okay. And so I lost my job in this office. And in the same building was a woman, she was sewing, no, .

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And I went up to her, and I liked to sew, so she said, "Okay, you can come. I will teach you and learn and you can help me." And I went, and I was there five, six months, then she got from the arbeit office --

Q: From the labor office, yeah.

A: From the labor office another girl in my age which she should employ and teach, no, lehrling.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And this lady one day say to me, "Jutta, you have to be careful of Jews." I said, "Oh, yes? How I know who is a Jew?" "They have horns."

Q: Really?

A: Yeah.

Q: So she didn't know you were Jewish?

A: No, I didn't -- I said to nobody what I was.

Q: Even at that age, you know, you knew?

A: Yeah.

Q: You knew not to.

A: Yeah, "has horns." (Laughing.) Say how I know who is Jews. Most of the people took me for I don't know. When we were married, they took me for Italian.

Q: Did you have many such incidents -- did you have -- were there many such sorts of exchanges that you would hear in the late thirties?

A: We were very mixed. I had boyfriend, he was my age, more or less, his father was not Jewish, but the parents were divorced.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And what I feel bad, when I left Germany, he took one of my luggage to the train station, and the mother, the sister for my stepmother, she was even more than the stepmother, she was later very happy when I left, and he was Jewish. He was raised by his mother, but the parents were divorced, and he took the bicycle and left Berlin, and then the mother was so preoccupied that they were looking for him, and they brought him home again, and I'm sorry I think maybe he perished.

Q: So did he leave because he was so unhappy that you were leaving?

A: No, no. He was -- this was already 1940.

Q: Isee.

A: ITleft'41.

Q: Oh. When did your father start thinking of leaving?

A: Idon't know. It was just before the war.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Inever saw him again. I was 16 years old.

Q: Tell me what happened?

A: He went underground.

Q: He went underground?

A: Yeah. He went to France when he wrote, and then later the French occupied -- the Germans occupied France, and France delivered the Jews to the Germans.

Q: And he was one of them?

A: He was killed.

Q: You found out after the war?

A: No, he was killed in the concentration camp.

Q: What -- do you know anything about the details?

A: No. After the war, my brother was in the English Army, he went to the police where he lived in France, and this is what the neighbors told.

Q: That he had been shipped off to a concentration camp?

A: Yeah, the Germans took him.

Q: So when -- after he left in Kristallnacht, did he ever come back?

A: Yeah, and after Kristallnacht, they catched him on the .

Q: Yeah.

A: And then they -- he had to go every month to the police.

Q: That's right, to register.

A: Yeah.

Q: And then at some point -- when did he go underground?

A: This must be four or five months before the war started.

Q: So that would have been 1939, April something?

A: Yeah, 1939, yeah. And I left in January "41, and then I was with my stepmother.

She was not good, she was not bad, but that's hard. For her it was hard, and for me, too.

But one day I cleaned my library and one book fell down, and I took the book up and pulled the letter out. This was a letter my mother had sent to me in "38, --

Q: Uh-huh.

A: -- to see what was going on in Germany, it is not good; if I wouldn't like to come live with her. And my father said, "What, you will write her? You don't know your mother.

You don't know what person she is." So I never answered the letter. But then when I found this letter, I saw the address, and I wrote her a letter if she still is interested in me, if she can sponsor me.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And she sent me the paper for Uruguay. And I didn't know how she looked, and Werner was on the ship, and he saw a lady call, "Is Jutta Popower on the ship?" And then he came to me, "Jutta, I think the lady what is calling is your mother." It was true.

Q: What happened to your brother? When he left at age 18 because your stepmother was criticizing him all the time, where did he go? What did he do?

A: Who?

Q: Your brother.

A: My brother?

Q: Yeah. What was his --

A: He was in the English Army.

Q: How did he get there from Germany?

A: He was -- when he was 18 years old, he left the house on a trip to England, and in England they took his passport and everything away, and after it was his time to leave England, they shipped him over to Germany. But he didn't come home. He went to Belgium, and in Belgium he entered into -- did something from +, this was a Jewish school to teach -- he learned in like an engineer plan, things like this, for two years, and then was from Dunkirk that the English took all the people out while the Germans started the war. It is before the war. So he came to this --

Q: Oh, so you're talking about Dunkirk?

A: Yeah. He came to England, and then he came to England, they deported him to live on the Island of Man. Did you hear of that one?

Q: Yes, I've heard of that.

A: Yeah, okay.

Q: So was he a prisoner there?

A: No, no, it is not a prison. It is one of -- for people that was illegal that would come to look for safety from Europe, from Germany. And then he applied to enter as a soldier in the English Army, and he came to the English Army, and he was a -- he fixed when the tank or something couldn't work anymore, he fixed this. This is what he learned. And he was to the war; he was in the Army.

Q: Well, this is -- it is simply -- I've heard of other German Jewish refugees coming to England --

A: My brother was not German.

Q: Pardon?

A: My brother had a Polish passport.

Q: Isee.

A: He was born in Russia.

Q: That's right. That's right. There makes the difference.

A: Uh-huh.

Q: And that's why he could go into the English Army. Because a lot of German Jewish refugees ended up being, well, quarantined, imprisoned not in bad prisons, but, nevertheless, treated like enemy aliens.

A: Don't tell me.

Q: Yeah.

A: No, I remember he wrote me, he had to make a testament and say something happened to him, no, he put me in in his testament and I get the money. I'm glad nothing happened to him.

Q: So when did you next see him?

A: Isaw him in 1950, when he went to Israel. It was -- he was then living in Israel. He was a soldier, and they had like a -- well, a soldier girl from the Army, where they went for food and things, no, like a restaurant, and over there he met a girl, she was from Hungary, Jewish, and -- but he left, it was the +, so he went to Israel, and then she followed him, and he married her. When he married her, after a while he found out she was ten years older than him.

Q: Really.

A: This was -- then he didn't like it as much. She should have never told him her age.

Q: Yeah.

A: And he liked to go away on trips for a month or so, and then he would say -- then he said, "Yeah, I'm going to visit my sister," and this was not true. He never came to visit me in Argentina. And when I came to Israel and I met her, she hated me. And she -- when we lived in Argentina, she wrote to my father-in-law that her husband give all the money what he has to me, and this is no. He lied to her, so she hated me.

Q: Such complex human relations sometimes, you know.

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: And such painful ones.

A: Werner went with my brother in Israel, I don't know if looking for a job or -- and when Werner went and bought something to eat, he gave him, no; and when he bought something, he hided it not to give up. He was like my mother.

Q: Oh.

A: A tight one.

Q: Isee.

A: It happened.

Q: It is disappointing.

A: Yeah.

Q: So your mother -- you know, your mother is in Uruguay and sends you these --

A: The papers.

Q: She sends you the papers --

A: Yeah. And she paid the ship, the boat trip to --

Q: And how -- how is it that between the time your father went underground and ended

up in France, your brother is gone, how is it that you stayed so late in Germany?

A: I?

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Ididn't know where to go. By accident only that the book fell down and came out

with the letter in with that my mother had sent me in "38.

Q: Isee. So it was a complete accident?

A: Yeah. And she was not living no more at the address, but the people what received

the letter know where she was living, so they went over and gave her the letter.

Q: And what were you doing -- what kind of work were you doing by the time you left?

A: That I left?

Q: Uh-huh. In Berlin.

A: And then started the war and I went looking for a job, and they sent me to Siemens,

Seimens__. I worked -- there were all Jews there, a hundred Jews, and we were -- I

was soldering.

Q: You were soldering?

A: The things with the fire, no?

Q: Yeah, that's right, it is called soldering.

A: Yeah.

Q: And so it was metal bits that you were soldering together?

A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was things for the -- for the war.

Q: For the war. So it was military?

A: Yeah. But the people that oversaw us and teached us were very nice over there, very

nice. And then in December, I told what was the manager of all of us that I was leaving, that I was going to South America, and he said, "Why you are leaving? The war will be finished soon." He didn't know about concentration camp and all this.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: The Jews know all over this a lot of parents from people that never came out from Sachsenhausen.

Q: Uh-huh. That's true. That's true. So-- but everybody -- you say the majority of the workers in Siemens were Jewish?

A: No. The workers, yeah.

Q: The workers.

A: But not the people what oversaw us.

Q: Uh-huh. And --

A: And I had to make money. I was very fast in the war, and some people would be a little slow, and then I say to them, "I work for your part, and what you get paid you give me half of it."

Q: And did that work out?

A: This Ihave so, and if this was not, I had money. I needed money when I would go.

My stepmother wouldn't give me money for a taxi or to Hamburg for a visa or so.

Q: So -- but your -- her sister --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- was holding your money for you?

A: Yeah, yeah.

Q: Okay.

A: She never told her. But she found out from the lady what paid me, I make the bookkeeping for her.

Q: Isee.

A: But she become friendly with her.

Q: Isee.

A: At the last call and said, "Oh, my sister, she was a false(ph) and Jew, she put -- hold your money, and she didn't say anything that you earned something by the" -- whatever . I don't like to discuss.

Q: Yeah. What happened to the twins? You say she had twins?

A: Yeah. No, they had challa(ph).

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And came the doctor and sent them to the hospital, and one had the challa(ph) and one was only -- one what gave the challa(ph) to other children, but didn't desire -- how do you say it, didn't --

Q: Wasn't sick themselves?

A: No.

Q: Okay.

A: And when they come to the hospital, they gave each child an injection or something, and she which shouldn't go died.

Q: Oh.

A: And when the doctor said she didn't need to go to the hospital, only she has this challa(ph), and only keep her isolated. She doesn't know if one has to go the other has to go, too, and this one that didn't need to go, she died.

Q: Oh.

A: Yeah.

Q: And the other one, did she get better?

A: Yeah. The other one I have no relationship now since I was away from Germany.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And my stepmother always, "Look, Jutta, look at this, look at this," so the child didn't like me much. But I had to take them to -- I was out in years -- in the city with a car to the parks and so on. And the best thing in the parks, who was sitting around, people what didn't have jobs, and they had lice.

Q: Oh, dear.

A: And what are they kept there? With lice. And so she said, "Jutta, you are dirty. You have lice." And then I took the children to the park, and we were sitting on the bench, and we came home, she had lice, too.

Q: You didn't have much choices there, did you?

A: Yeah. I couldn't go with the two children. I was a child myself, and that's a busy street with cars and and all the -- aye yai.

Q: In 19 --

A: Okay. And my stepmother then one day, one of the times that the was on the phone, "Yeah, you didn't send me food, packages." I said, "How can you send packages?" I have to be -- I was married without money, too, and had two children.

Q: So didn't seem to have much understanding?

A: Yeah. She -- she liked to exploit me.

Q: Yeah.

A: And I had a little jewelry what I gave her while Jews couldn't have jewelry, no, gold.

It was what my father gave me when I was 13 years, a gold watch with a gold arm band, and I keep it when -- after the war to give it back, and I asked her for it. "Oh, I needed to sell it. I needed the money." "Okay." I never saw her. When I was in Berlin and called up, she didn't like to see me. I think she was afraid.

Q: So she stayed and survived the war?

A: No, she was not Jewish. She only found out that after --

Q: So even if she converted, it didn't matter?

A: Then when my father left, I'm sure she went out. I'm sure.

Q: When did you stop living at home with her?

A: What?

Q: When did you stop living at home with her?

A: When I left Germany in April -- not in April. In January 21 it was, I think, 1941.

Q: Okay. So the war has already started?

A: Yeah.

Q: Do you remember what Berlin was like?

A: Yeah, when I came to Lisbon, we went with the train, all Jews were in the train in the section from Berlin to Lisbon. For nearly a week we were -- it was all Jews but occupied with the Germans.

Q: And did I understand correctly that -- that this train was sealed; that is, were you able to get on and off of it or not?

A: Nobody has -- maybe the know that it was, at least from the +, but my mother paid everything. But they were all Jews in the section. We covered five days with sitting day and night sitting in the section, and then one night we stopped in Spain, we went to a hotel I remember, and the first time after so many days that I could wash myself, and I was sitting in a bath in the bath things washing, and I was so tired that I fell asleep.

Q: In the bath?

A: Yeah. But there were two girls that were in the same kupe as I, and they came in the hotel, they had the same room number, they came in to see what I am doing, and they found me in the bathtub.

Q: Oh.

A: So I'm glad that they came in, I could be -- they said, "Jutta, Jutta, don't sleep."

Q: Well, that shows just how tired and exhausted you were.

A: Everyone. And my father was waiting for me in Paris +, and I don't know where we were parked, it was far from the station, but it wasn't Paris.

Q: Were you able to get off of the train in Paris?

A: Nowhere. I didn't know where to go. And my father didn't find me.

Q: And so that's why you never saw him again?

A: Never. And he said he had money he was giving that if I could see that he could go get a permit for -- to him to this country or that my mother never helped me. She was full of this hatred against my father, and she was the guilty one.

Q: So your mother in Uruguay?

A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. So you get on the boat by yourself, is that right, in Lisbon?

A: Yeah, I got on the -- yeah, everything was arranged from the join(ph), from the Jewish organization, but she had to pay, no.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And then on the ship I met Werner with his family, his mother -- mother, sister and father.

Q: And what was your first impression of him?

A: Oh, he was . Lcould with him talk about everything. He was very nice. And then I had another admirer on the ship, he came from Switzerland, Jewish from Germany,

Q: Uh-huh.

A: -- and even I couldn't go on the toilet, he was waiting outside. Terrible, terrible. I couldn't stand him. And then it was cool, and he brought me something to cover on the outside, and I didn't want it. "Here." "Okay." Then one day when he saw that I was not interested in him, "Can I have my blanket back?" "Yes, here, you have it." I didn't ask for it. Yeah, I was good looking.

Q: Still are.

A: Yeah.

Q: And we will take some pictures later, we will film some of the pictures --

A: What?

Q: We will film some of the photos that you have --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- and that proves it. So what -- what happened when you got to Uruguay and you meet your mother again after so many years?

A: Yeah. The first I see -- I see that she was speaking bad about my father. How could she speak bad when she doesn't have a relationship with him.

Q: Yeah.

A: My brother left her.

Q: So that was hard to take?

A: I think she was a hard lady. She thinks that she was right. Okay. And she was a liar.

Oh, I could not stand it when she spoke to people and said these things that are not real, and then she say to them, "Ask my daughter, ask my daughter, Jutta, Jutta." "Mama." She wanted that I lie for her with.

Q: So it wasn't easy?

A: No. I feeled sorry for her. Maybe she was an unhappy person, I don't know. But she married two husbands, or three husband, who knows.

Q: And one of them took her to Uruguay?

A: Yeah,in_ what I met, he was from -- he was a German. No, he was a Hungarian, Hungarian, but he was a man with money --

Q: Hungarian.

A: -- and she married the money. And he was a nice man, a very nice man.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Iliked him. And then the second man she married -- Werner, what was the second man? He was from -- WERNER PREUSS: Argentina.

A: From Argentina, yeah. And he had the same name, Goldstein.

Q: As the first one?

A: Yeah. Werner was the test -- the witness.

Q: Uh-huh. To the second wedding?

A: I-- I don't know if it was the second. Maybe it was the third or fourth.

Q: Yeah. And did you stay in Uruguay?

A: Yeah, he died there.

Q: No, you. After you arrived in --

A: No, we went to Israel. When we married, we went --

Q: No, no. I want to find out how -- did you get to Argentina in some way?

A: Yeah.

Q: Tell me about that?

A: The husband, this one, the Goldstein, Zoltan(ph) Goldstein, he lost his job, couldn't find another one.

Q: The Hungarian one?

A: Yeah. But he came as a kid to Germany.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And so we went to Buenos Aires and there he find a job, but he died. Before he died, I went to see him in the hospital with my daughter, she was two years old or two-and-a- half, two-and-a-half already, and I said, you know, "Zolly, I am leaving, I'm going to Israel." "Oh, yeah. I was home to visit you, but you don't know where I am."

Q: I didn't understand that part. You said you told him you were going to Israel, and what did he say?

A: Yeah, I was -- we already were prepared.

Q: Oh, yeah.

A: I didn't -- with my mother I didn't read -- speak. But then my daughter was born, she came to the hospital and made a tragedy. "Yeah, children, who will pay all this, I have to pay it," and she didn't give a penny, no, never.

Q: Difficult.

A: Yes.

Q: Not only difficult, very --

A: Yeah. And the doctor came and said, "Is this lady what was here" -- I became sick and fever, no -- never, no. "Who was it?" I say, "My mother."

Q: Very hard.

A: But later she wanted to move in with me in Treundan(ph).

Q: Oh.

A: My cousin said to me, she went to Paris, the last one -- she doesn't live anymore.

She died in "95.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: She went to Paris, and she lived by a nephew, the son from a brother of her, and he was married, and she nothing more than could speak than bad about his wife, made her to fight, so he said to my mother, "Better you move out."

Q: Well, yeah.

A: Yeah. And my cousin told me her brother -- my mother's brother was the same way, and the parents divorced, but they were already the children grown up.

Q: It sounds like you had a lot of disappointments.

A: No, I was not disappointed. I have two ears, and one that goes in and the other out.

Q: Well, that's the way somebody can survive, you know.

A: What can you do?

Q: Yeah.

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion

A: You cannot change it.

Q: So was the first time you went back to Germany when you went with your husband?

A: Yeah.

Q: And what kind of a feeling did that leave with you?

A: No doubt it was. No,Icame when _. I was a guide taking groups from Argentina to Germany.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: And the funny thing is it was a bus -- it was a car, a big car, it was Europe, and when we were in Germany I had to tell the people that I was Jewish. I could not talk before they know that I was Jewish.

Q: You mean, the people that you would take on tour?

A: They were from Argentin

A: They were not German.

Q: And you -- you had to tell them that you are Jewish?

A: Not to the people. To the chauffeur --

Q: Oh, I see.

A: -- or the guide that I had in Germany. One of them said, "I didn't ask you. I am not interested." "Very good."

Q: Oh. That's kind of cold and brusque.

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you visit back to where your street was, where you had grown up?

A: Yeah. It doesn't exist now. The house is not there. It is now a small house there.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Yeah.

Q: I think I was with Werner.

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. Have -- well, I guess I'm at the point where -- are there -- is there anything that we haven't talked about that is important to add to your story? Is there anything that we have not talked about that -- that you think is important to add to your story?

A: No. Itis a simple life.

Q: I don't think so. It sounds like it was quite a challenge.

A: Yeah. I -- I am born a happy person.

Q: Yeah.

A: Isay always be happy, happy and healthy.

Q: Yeah.

A: Iam not -- I don't understand when people, how do you say, mad of other people, you know, or --

Q: Or angry all the time?

A: Angry and you would like this and this. I cannot understand this.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: We were happy when we had nothing, and I am happy now that I don't need anything.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: Werner always say, "Don't worry, we have enough that we live."

Q: Yeah. Well --

A: Iwas not money hungry.

Q: I would like then to thank you for talking with us today.

A: Oh, you're welcome.

Q: Thank you very much.

A: And I have two nice very good children.

Q: Tell me their names.

A: Ishow you the photo of my children.

Q: Okay. When we start to -- when we start filming photos, which we will do momentarily.

A: Yes.

Q: I'll just close the interview.

A: Yeah.

Q: Excuse me. Oh, we are rolling? Okay. So, Mrs. Preuss, tell us who is in this photo right here?

A: This is my father.

Q: Your father.

A: This is me, and this is my brother.

Q: And your brother's name was?

A: Heino. Heino Popower.

Q: Heino?

A: Heino.

Q: Heino.

A: But he changed it to Henry Power.

Q: To Henry Power. And do you remember when this was taken? You must have been like four or five years old?

A: Yeah, six and three years there.

Q: Three years. So it would have been 1924 or "25 or something?

A: Yeah. And then my brother is three years and eight months older than me.

Q: Isee. I see. So it was your father with his two children?

A: He was a young man, yeah.

Q: Very young man.

A: My father was born in 1897, and my brother was born in 1919. 1919.

Q: And then now we will see another photograph of your brother. That's you.

A: My father was 22 years old when his son was born.

Q: He was a young man to become a father, yeah.

A: And my mother was 24. She is two years older. She was.

Q: And then there is your brother Heino?

A: Heino.

Q: Who became Henry?

ontactrefiranneGaushariarg a hither atrmedortabeattfiexaliaton

A: But he never -- he -- we always in Germany called him Heinz.

Q: Ah, I see.

(Video interruption.)

A: He must be 17, 16, 17.

Q: Okay. Rolling? So this is your brother right here, and you said this is when he was in -- a young man?

A: Yeah, he must be 17.

Q: Isee. Can we now pan to this photograph? Can I move it or not? Let me turn it. Let me turn it. This one. It looks like -- tell me, who is in this photograph of the two men there?

A: Well, one is my father, I think. It say over there.

Q: That's over here?

A: Icannot read.

Q: It says your father.

A: And one is his brother.

Q: His brother-in-law.

A: Yeah.

Q: Uh-huh. Okay.

A: Icannot read. These are my grandparents.

Q: Oh, we will film them in a minute.

A: And here it says -- who is it? You can read the letter.

Q: I think his brother, but I can't really -- okay. Are we done with that one? Okay. And then we will -- on this one, let's focus on that, right here, and this -- VIDEO OPERATOR: Hold on.

Q: Okay.

A: Both men, I'm sorry that he -- Werner?

WERNER PREUSS: What?

A: You could read it better.

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion

Q: Okay. Can you tell us who is in here? It sounds like -- it looks like your grandparents, yes? Don't move it, don't move it, don't move it. Just --

A: No, Werner has -- WERNER PREUSS: But where is the pictures when you were the children? Why you take these pictures? This isall from

A: Yeah.

Q: But this is your father's mother and father, yes? Is this right? Do you have another -- hang on. Let's cut it, please.

(Video stopped and restarted.)

Q: Allright. So who is in that photo there?

A: Gittel(ph).

Q: Gittel(ph)?

A: Yeah. And what was her name, Werner, her maiden name? I forgot it. I forgot at thismoment. s+. Gittel, Gittel --

Q: Ozorof(ph) or something?

A: Yeah.

Q: Ozorof. And your grandfather's name was what?

A: Joel.

Q: Joel Popower?

A: Popower.

Q: Uh-huh. And you were named after her?

A: No, they didn't accept that in Germany. It was not in Germany.

Q: Because it was Gittel, and rather than -- and so that's how you became Jutta?

A: Yeah. They said, "Oh, you mean Jutta," and so all the people what went to give the name for the child for the first born said, "Yes, Jutta," so I became Jutta.

Q: Isee. Okay. Thank you.

A: You're welcome.

Q: Allright. So now we will take some of --

ontectnetonancedjusetneey for tarher biormatoerabouttfisestecion

(Video stopped and started.)

Q: Allright. So what is this photo?

WERNER PREUSS: This picture was taken in 1939 in a working camp in Germany. It was not a camp really. It was a farmer's town where all what you see you there, we had to work for the local farmers.

Q: And this is outside Berlin?

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah, this was near Berlin, but I don't remember the name of the village. This was a village. Most ofthemwere__ +, big --

Q: Oh, so they -- horse farms?

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah, yeah.

Q: Horse farms.

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah, yeah.

Q: Okay. And you are in here, too?

WERNER PREUSS: My picture is there.

Q: You're in the last row I see?

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah. And you know one thing?

Q: Yeah.

WERNER PREUSS: Years later I published this picture in the German --

A: Newspaper.

WERNER PREUSS: No, in the magazine which we got all the time forthe ___, and somebody from Israel called me and say he saw the one of his friends, and he was also in this camp, but he -- afterwards, he was sent to Auschwitz later where he met his wife and lives in Israel.

Q: Oh, my goodness.

WERNER PREUSS: But I don't remember which guy it is there in the picture.

Q: But there you are in the back?

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah, but there is one guy on -- who survived Auschwitz.

Q: And this is where you learned various agricultural tasks?

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah, in'39.

Q: In'39. Okay. We are going to stop with that photo and go to the next. Okay. And what is the bottom photo there of the place? What is that about?

WERNER PREUSS: This is the convent -- the convent --

Q: The convent in Italy?

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah, where we were living at this time. They moved us to this building.

Q: So this was the sort of like prison area?

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah, it was -- it was used like a prison, but it was a semi-open prison.

Q: Okay. And it was Agnone? How did you say the place?

WERNER PREUSS: It was a convent.

Q: Iknow. How did you -- what was it -- you told me where it was, and what was the name?

WERNER PREUSS: In Agnone.

Q: Agnone.

WERNER PREUSS: Agnone in Italy.

Q: Okay.

WERNER PREUSS: And beside was a camp near there, a big camp, so more people.

Q: Allright. Now, when we shift to the photograph of this group of people -- WERNER PREUSS: Yeah. This was most of the group from -- which lived there with us.

Q: Isee. And we see some of them outside on the grass and standing -- WERNER PREUSS: On the right side outside both is my father and I.

Q: Isee.

WERNER PREUSS: All on the right side.

Q: So that would be -- if luse my finger, there is you? (Indicating.) WERNER PREUSS: Yeah, the last one. The right side.

Q: Excuse me. At this point I don't know what is right and left.

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah, yeah.

Q: It would be here and here, yes?

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah. I think my -- somebody has a white shirt, no?

Q: Yeah. And your father looks like he has glasses on?

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah, yeah. No, no, my father has no glasses I think.

Q: No glasses?

WERNER PREUSS: No. But my father is beside me. If I pick it up, I can tell you.

Q: Okay. Hang ona second. I'm so sorry. We are going to take a look at this.

Q: Okay. So could we explain again?

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah. This is a picture in Agnone when we were in the concentration camp or how you want to call it, a prisoner camp, and this is a picture -- most of the people on the picture was a group, we were together in this building, and then on the side -- on the right side you see my father and beside me. I am with the eyeglasses -- sunglasses.

Q: So this is your father, and this is you with the sunglasses? (Indicating.) WERNER PREUSS: Yeah. Yeah, I'm in the sunglasses. And this is just -- that's the people -- this -- we were looking just at soccer play between the prisoners and people from -- from the police department.

Q: Oh, gosh. So the people from the police department and the prisoners -- WERNER PREUSS: Police +.

Q: And who took the photo?

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah.

Q: Who would have taken the photo?

WERNER PREUSS: Some -- some of the people who -- I think this was a professional photograph.

Q: Okay. So, I mean, were prisoners allowed to keep photographs -- like a camera with them?

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah, I think so.

Q: Okay. All right. So do we have more?

WERNER PREUSS: Now, here I have is when I arrived in Europe -- when we were in Argentina, and this is Jutta's half-sister which is in Europe when she told you the story.

Q: Okay. Afterwards we will take that one. So that's when you were -- this photo is of you when you arrived in Uruguay?

WERNER PREUSS: Yeah, yeah.

Q: Okay. All right.

(Whereupon, Video interview concluded.) Conclusion of Interview