Document

PAUL JONAS

Q: Okay, this is Mr Paul Jonas, and you're here to explain what this

photograph is and who is in the photograph. Can you tell us?

A: Well, this is -- the oldest brother is missing here. This is the next.

QO: What's his name?

A: Joe or Joseph. Next to him is sister, Esther. Next to her is Shulim.

QO: Who we'll talk to in a minute?

A: Right. And next to him is sister, Hilda, and this one is me.

QO: That's Paul Jonas, the littlest boy.

A: Paul Jonas, yeah. And this is my sister Manna(ph)

Q: So it's the whole Jonas sibling clan except for Avraham?

A: Yeah.

Q: Except for the oldest boy?

A: Yeah.

Q: All from Sanok?

A: All from Sanok, yeah.

Q: So it's the Jonas kids?

A: Yeah. We were all born there and grew up over there.

Q: Do you know about when this photograph was taken?

A: No. Looks like Iwas say, about what, five years old?

Q: So it would have been late 1920s?

A: Yeah, right.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

deage ight Ree YeTER HAIRCARE S SR Geet Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and

Interview with Shulim Jonas 4

Q: Late 1920s maybe 1930, "31 something like that, but not longer?

A: No, it looks like it, yeah. You're right, yeah.

Q: It's alovely photograph.

A: What else could Ijust say about it? The only thing I could tell, that she was the

prettiest +

Q: Who is that?

A: Hilda.

Q: Hilda?

A: She was pretty. She was very pretty, you know. And this one here, he was a

smart... He was smart but...

QO: That's Shulim?

A: Shulim. But nothing went _, he went to college, nothing at all.

Q: So all six children survived except for Avraham who is not here?

A: He got killed. I think the same day or the day before when the Americans

came in or Russians,whatever.The Russians, yeah.

Q: Thank you very much.

A: You're welcome.

QO: We can now stop. And we're rolling. So we're talking, from left to right, the

oldest person on the left, the young man, who was that?

A: This is my brother Joe.

QO: Next to him, the tallest girl?

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 5

A: This is Esther, my sister.

Q: She is kind of in the middle of the photograph.

A: Yeah.

QO: Next to her?

A: Is my brother Shulim.

QO: Okay?

A: And next to him is Hilda.

Q: Okay. And down in the right-hand side, closer to the bottom, who's that?

A: That's me, Paul Jonas.

QO: Okay?

A: And --

QO: Youngest?

A: Is the sister, Manna.

Q: She's on the right-hand side -- or the left hand, excuse me, I'm confused now.

She's on the left on the bottom. So first from the left on the top is Joseph, then

comes?

A: Esther.

Q: Esther? Then comes Shulim?

A: Shulim.

QO: Then comes Hilda?

A: Yeah.

Q: Then?

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 6

A: Paul.

Q: And then?

A: Manna.

Q: Got it? Okay. Terrific. Thank you so much.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

The interview fs Rar Fab lhe IASPS. GR Grats Memorial Missy esr! entior oboe desta ealess lp osonal abaukarcess and usage rights can be found in the catalog record. Interview with Shulim Jonas 7 SHULIM JONAS MAY 5, 2013

Q: This is the United States Holocaust Memorial Interview with Mr.

Shulim Jonas on May 5, 2013, in Brooklyn, New York. Thank you, Mr Jonas, for

agreeing to speak with us today.

A: Okay.

Q: I'm going to ask you a few questions.

A: Okay.

Q: I know it's not so easy for you to hear me, but I will speak loudly.

A: Okay.

Q: And we'll start with very simple questions. Where were you born? When you

were you born and tell me about --

A: Where I was born and when I was born?

Q: Yes.

A: Iwas too small that time when I was born {Laughter}.

Q: You don't remember? How can you not--

A: Iwas born 1917, 22 June.

Q: On June 22--

A: On June 22 I was born in Poland, and I always thought that this is my only

country.

Q: Was Poland?

A: But I did think this until the main war started.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 8

Q: Okay, wait--

A: And I saw that they wanted to kill us and I did had to hide. I gave up. I then

thought that | am a stranger there and Poland is not my ?went?.

Q: That must have been very painful.

A: So I was--I went to gymnasium.

Q: First tell me this. Tell me about your family. How many brothers and sisters

did you have and who were they? What were their names?

A: My family was abig family. Seven children. Four brothers and three sisters.

Q: Who was the oldest?

A: Huh?

Q: What were the names of your brothers and sisters?

A: The oldest brother, my name--we have a picture here--was Avraham. He got

killed, I don't know where, by the Germans. And we don't know where he is.

Now, we Jews have every year to remind our death people. So my father died in

that time -- it doesn't matter. So laskedthe Rabbi, "What shall Ido with my

oldest brother? I don't know when he did die." So he told me to connect it with

my father's death.So the day when I have--after my father--

Q: Yes?

A: --I am connecting him with the same day.

Q: What is the day of your father's death?

A: The name of my father?

Q: Yes.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 9

A: Was Herman.

Q: Herman Jonas?

A: Herman Jonas, yes.

Q: And when was he born and when did he die?

A: When he died?

Q: Yes.

A: He died already here in New York.

Q: What was the date?

A: Huh?

Q: When?

A: This I don't remember. Dates I don't remember. But I want to tell you one

thing. I finished gymnasium in Poland. I wanted always to be a doctor, but the

year what I finished gymnasium -- you know what gymnasium is?

Q: Tell me.

A: Yes. So I finished gymnasium, the war started. The war started when I was in

gymnasium. Officers from the Army came to us and they taught us how to use

rifles and so forth, so on, how to be a soldier.

Q: Which army was this?

A: Huh?

Q: Which army was this?

A: This was the Polish army in our town.

Q: And you were how old at that time?

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 10

A: Iwas about 20-something years, 21 or 22, something like that. Anyhow, the

war started and they didn't call me to the Army.

Q: Why?

A: Why? Because Iam Jewish and at the gymnasium. I should have been an officer

in the Army and they didn't want to have Jewish officers.

Q:I see.

A: Regular soldiers, yes, but not officers. In this way I got saved. Now--

Q: Tell me-- Before we go before, tell me about your life before the war, about

your family, about your childhood. Tell me alot about your life.

A: My childhood?

Q: Yes.

A: We went through a lot of different times but I always -- I never was a young boy,

a young child. You ask me why, because after me I had about three younger ones,

so whenever they wanted, the younger ones, from me something, I didn't want

to do it or to give into them. So my parents always say: "Shulim, you are

older. This is a child." I always was older, never was a child.

Q: Awww.

A: So that I was never a child, never young. Then when I was seven years I had to

start school.

Q: Did you go to a Jewish school or a Polish school?

A: Polish school. After this elementary school I went to gymnasium.

Q: Okay. Did you speak Polish at home or Yiddish?

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 11

A: Poland. Iwent to gymnasium. And I told you before, after I finished

gymnasium I wanted to be a doctor, but I didn't have the chance. Now the

Germans came in to us.

Q: Okay.

A: So I knew that this was our end, my end, in...

Q: How did you know?

A: Because we are Jewish.

Q: How did you know they were after the Jews?

A: How Idid know? Because the Polish people, the army, they start watching

already that the Germansshould come in to fight and beg. SoI did know already

this. But they even didn't fight when the Germans came in. But they told us that

in an hour or an hour-and-a-half the Germans will be in ourtown. So we did run

to the woods. The woods Were -- in our town we had ahill, the woods were on

the hill.

Q: Who ran?

A: We went to the woods, those in hiding.

Q: Who was with you?

A: Who -- the whole family. My parents and my brothers and sisters.

Q: All of you together?

A: All we were together up there. In the morning I saw by us the streets, they're

full with dust, not like here.

Q: Yeah?

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 12

A: So I did see that the dust comes unto heaven. So I knew that the Germans are

coming inmotorcycles and trucks and cars. Then I can't tell you that. I saw it's

my end, I got shaky and cold.

Q: Really?

A: knew this is it. But, after that,a boy came in up to us and said that the

German general said that he won't kill us. So we went back home.

Q: Tell me, what was your father's job? What did he do?

A: Huh?

Q: What was your father's job?

A: My father's job that time, we had a bank. So he was in the bank.

Q: What town was this?

A: Huh?

Q: What town?

A: What town?

Q: Yes.

A: Sanok.

Q: Sanok. Okay.

A: Sanok.

Q: Okay.

A: Now, when the war started he had to leave the whole bank like that. He couldn't

take out nothing.

Q: Yeah.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 13

A: After a few days being home, the Germans said to us that one of every family

should come to the City Hall. We boys were afraid to go. No men. Because the

men they did kill. In that time the girls or woman they didn't kill. So we did send

our sister.

Q: Which one?

A: That just died maybe a month or two.

Q: What was her name?

A: Esther.

Q: Esther?

A: Yes. So we did send her. The Germans asked everybody, "What are your

parents" business? What do they do?" So she said, "We have a bank.""Go to this

line." Somebody said, "They're working." "Go to this line." Usually when they

made two lines, is one line they did kill and the otherline, which they could use,

they left alive. But this time they said to the line where my sister was -- business,

all business -- tomorrow until 8.30 or 9.30 -- I don't remember exactly thetime

-- you shouldn't be any more in this town. You cross the river. The river by us

was San. It did divide the city in two parts. We didn't know, but the Germans,

with the Russians, did dividePoland. So our city was divided. Where we were,

our house, the Germans took. The other side of the river, the Russian took. So

next day we had to cross the river, goup there. Near the river were the

Germans -- Germans, the Army stay there. We were -- and we were crying because

the Germans by them pick, pick, pick, and they kill us.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 14

Q: Did you see people being shot?

A: Yes. We had to go through them. So we went in crying. I'll never forget it.

One guy of the officers said to us:"Lepsze, lepsze, lepsze." You know what

that means?

Q: No.

A:lt's "better, better, better." Like don't be afraid, it's better for us to go there

than to stay there.

Q: Was it a Russian officer or a German?

A: The "lepsze" probably was from Czechoslovakia.

Q: Ah.

A: Because he knew -- it's like our Polish. So we crossed over. We crossed over. In

afew days the Russian came in.

Q: What did they look like?

A: Huh?

Q: What did they look like, the Russians?

A: What we did?

Q: No, what did the Russians look like, the soldiers?

A: What the soldiers, the Russian did?

Q: Yeah.

A: They took us for a hearing. They asked us so and so and so, and they wanted

us boys -- we were three boys that time, ready to go to the army -- to take Russian

citizenship. We knew that if we would take Russian citizenship, tomorrow they The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 15

will send us to the army without teaching us how to use agunor a... So this

would be our death. So, okay. They say okay.

Q: So what did you say? You said no, you don't want Russian Citizenship?

A: What they did?

Q: No, no, no. My question is did your family say yes to Russian Citizenship or

no?

A: We said no. We said to them, "If you will take the other half of the city where

our house is, we will become your citizens." Everything was the right quiet. In a

few days, in middle of the night, like one or two o'clock, the Russians came in to

us. And what happened? They said, "Come with us. Get dressed and come with

us." They had a system that if they wanted to catch you, they came in the middle

of the night when you'resleeping. Because daytime you couldrun away. In the

middle sleep, they could catch us. They took us to the train. The train was not

for people but looked for animals. And afew family in one wagon. Now, they

told us we are going to Siberia.

Q: They told you then?

A: Yes. We were crying. We knew this is our end. This is our end. But a few of

our people got money. They paid the Russian officers. They did let them out.

And they were laughing and dancing, and we were crying. But I want to bring

out, you don't know in life which bad is for your good and which good is for

your bad. We went to Siberia, we came back alive. A lot of them died there,

but we came back alive. Those which paid and was dancing and laughing, the The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 16

Germans came in and they got killed. So you never know which bad is for your

good and which good is for your bad.

Q: Was your whole --

A: We were in Russia. They took us to Siberia to the woods.

Q: How long did it take to get there?

A: How long we did stay in Russia?

Q: No, how long were you on the train to -- how long did it take for the train to go

A: How long it took us?

Q: Yeah.

A: About 22 days.

Q: You know exactly?

A: Twenty days to Siberia. They then took -- day and night. You know what, we

took with us our bread and, after a few days, we threw out the bread which was

already hard and threw them out through the window. The dogs did run and catch

it. After a time the Russians men came and they start fighting the dogs in catching

the bread. This we saw that is our end. If they are fighting the dogs for a piece

of bread, that means we are come and we will be hungry. We won't have any

bread. So we came to the woods. If they would take us like murderers or

whatever, that means we would have to work in the woods and they would give

us some eating. But they did a different thing. They paid us piecework. How

many trees you did cut. And we were allowed for the workers just one piece of The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 17

bread to buy a day. This was it. Now, for the bread we had to pay. It was a store,

we had to pay for it. Happened so in the beginning we got pieces of bread, but we

had to divide the bread between the not workers from our family.

Q: Who?

A: So we got always almost nothing.

Q: Who did not work in your family?

A: So what happened--

Q: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Who in your family worked, who did not?

A: We children did work. The parents could not work because my father, by the

first time helifted up the --

Q: Saw?

A: -- hatchet --

Q: Yeah?

A: -- to cut off the dead thing from the tree, the leaves, he did hit his leg. So he

couldn't any more work.Couldn't go out. So we were working. Every month they

paid us for the trees so we could buy. Then they got smart and paid us once ina

few month. We didn't have any money. You couldn't buy any bread. So a lot of

people worked, fell down, and this was their end.So even to die you have to

have luck. So what happened? No cemetery. They covered them with dust. They

had alot of scent. They covered them as they were there. Came the wind, blew it

off. The scent, they were good for the wolves and bears which were there in the

woods. That's what it was. Now being there about two years, the second year they The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 18

gave us pieces of potatoes to put in the earth to grow potatoes for us because

bread was not enough. So we did it. Came (?0cean?) and everybody had to dig

his part of potatoes up. And we didn't get nothing. Didn't grow. Just one small

part of potatoes. We brought it in and my mother -- you see the picture here -- my

mother was crying. She said, "This is our end." I said, "Mummy, don't cry. Until

we will finish those potatoes the help from God will come to us." Know what

happened?

Q: What happened?

A: This night they made the potatoes and we finished them. The second day,

before we went out to the woods, two or three -- I don't remember -- two or three

trucks came in withRussian officers and they told us, "From today on you are

free. You can go to any town of Russia. You don't have to be in the woods." Some

people had money. They bought tickets and went to the warmer parts of...

We didn't have any money. So what happened? So I said let us go to the wood.

Let us cry -- let us cut a few more trees and they will pay us for it, and then we

will see what we can do with it. One guy there, a boy, 20-something years,

they live near us, he said,"I'm going to help you." And he did help us. And we

did cut I don't know how many trees. And we did call the Russian and they note

and they did pay us for it. Now our parents asked us what kind of a ticket we

should buy for that. Isaid, "You know what, for every money what we have, buy a

ticket, and we will see how far it will bring us." And you know what happened?

Did you hear about three biggest riversin Asi

a: Ob, Yenisei, Lena? Did you hear The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 19

of it?

Q: Yes.

A: They brought us out the other side of Ob, Kamen-na-Obi, a town on the river.

Q: On Ob? On the River Ob?

A: Not on top of the river, the river--

Q: Next to it.

A: Yes. So we went there. We didn't know what to do with us. They gave me a

job to be over agroup there. Whatever they are doing, me to take care of them.

And I didn't like it. So I thought they want to give us ajob -- me -- ajob in the

City Hall, alot of money. But for the whole money I couldn't buy a potato. It was

very expensive. You couldn't get it. Solsaid, "You know what, I'm going to be

a bookkeeper in acohouse(ph). You know what cohouse(ph) is?

Q: Tell me.

A: A farm.

Q: Uh-huh. What kind of farm?

A: A farm with animals, a farm with field, bread and so forth and so on. So I

thought that I will be their bookkeeper, I will have for my familywhat to eat.

Q: When you were in Russia --

A: Huh?

Q: When you were there in Russia, were you able to be religious? Could you

practice your religion? Okay, I'll write it down. Tell me more of your story

about your family, to eat. {Document handed} The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 20

A: No.

Q: You could not practice religion?

A: No. If they would catch me, I wouldn't be here now. In matter of a fact is, cutting

the trees -- you know we have high holidays? One holiday we have to fast the

whole day, Yom Kippur, and theother is New Year. And we knew when it is. So

every day came a Russian guy and took over how many trees we did cut today, and

tomorrow [had to cut more trees. Doesn't matter. But when it was the day

before those holidays, we are not allowed to work, not todo nothing. So when

the guy came like suppose two, three o'clock and took how many, so after that I

was staying longer and cut moretrees for tomorrow, so when he will come

tomorrow I will say that that what I cut today. Do you know what happened?

Q: What?

A: In the morning of the holiday a Russian guy came before we came and said, "Go

to work," and we had to work. So they did treat us... What can we do? What? I

went to the library. I took bookkeeping books. Because in gymnasium they

didn't teach us bookkeeping. It's a special -- special other schools. And I didn't

know Russian at that time. So I did read a few times one sentence until I did

learn. And then Itold him they did need me because they took all the men and

the women, the girls, to the army. And they gave mea job. And they gave me a

job in an office. "Oh, a Polish bookkeeper!" All right. I went there to the office.

Was sitting a girl which just finished bookkeeping school. And I came in and she

asked me a question, "What this document?" I did not answer. | did start The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

eae rights ee eee RSSRE BPS Sea IS: Memorial MussH ase ection eb yal dest aeues: lntgimalien abgubgcess and Interview with Shulim Jonas 21 hollering on her, "You are asking me such a stupid question? You look and until you find it." She was afraid of me already. And she looked and looked. And next day she said, "I found it." "I told you. How did you find it?" She told me.

I learned something.

Q: {Laughter} That's good!

A: Then I saw that she knows more than me. So I told the head of the farm "I don't need her. Take her to the other." He took her out. Then I did start looking on documents, and there those documents are in the books.In this way I did learn and I became the best bookkeeper there. They gave me a house and I had my family in the house. This was until the end. Now they telled us we can go home to Poland. So on the border of Poland our train did stop. Our train did stop. So some officers of -- Russia officers went with us with the guns withmachines. Five Pollocks did stand outside and said, "All the Jews came out, we want to finish whatever was left." We were afraid already to look because they had rifles. So the officers, the Russian officers, told them to leave otherwise they will get killed.

"No, we want to finish them up!" They went away. And do you know what? The train took us to Poland and we were afraid already because they wanted to kill us.

They lost the war because the Germans took a part and this took apart, but they wanted to kill us, the Jews. Coming there we had some gold still left over. Yeah, I forgot to tell you how did we live in the woods. We had some golden vouchers, golden rings, diamonds. So we went 15 miles away from us, was a town there and we bought for this potatoes, a few potatoes. In this way we could The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 22

live. Otherwise we would be out already. This way now, being in the farm, I had

for my family whatever we did need to eat and end of the year I got like this

room a lot of -- how do you say this? -- white -- oh, you are makingflour out of it

and then we making bread. We had more than we did need, so we did help others

which were dying from hunger. This was the end there, and then in Poland we did

see what they want to do with us. So we paid a few people, special people, which

take you over the border. They took us to Czechoslovakia, the whole family.

Q: So you didn't want to stay in Poland?

A: We couldn't stay in Poland, no. We left our house and everything. We went

to Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia, they send us to Austria. One thing what I

want to tell you. In Austria, the Germans -- and I could go where 20 or 50 Germans

were together and they just said hello to me, and the Pollocks wanted to kill us.

Germans are people. Like soldiers, if you tell them to kill, they will kill. After

this, they are normal people. So we did live in Austria. In Austrial went Graz.

Did you ever hear of Graz? In Graz I went two years to university to learn

medicine.

Q: Because you wanted to be a doctor.

A: In meantime, I got married.My wife, she was in Germany. I was in Austria,

she was in Germany. And we got papers to America. I left Austria, Icame to

America, and I could not make here the _ for medicine. Sol went into business.

It's a hard thing to say, but doesn't matter, and I made my business all right.

Q: What was the business?

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 23

A: I made samples for ladies. And my samples you could see in the television.

They did show my samples. Yes. And I made, thank God, a nice living.

Q: Did you make clothes? Were they samples of clothes?

A: What?

Q: The samples, what kind of samples were they?

A: Skirts. This what I made. And after this, when this {video camera} won't

work, I'll tell you something about my factory.

Q: Okay.

A: Okay, I think I finished.

Q: Ihave some questions. Wait a minute. I will write them down. Okay, I will

first read my question. When you and I were talking earlier.

A: What is--

Q: When you and I spoke earlier--

A: Let me read the question.

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Q: Okay. --I said you had seen God throughout your life. I'd like to know where you saw him when you were in Russia.

A: Yes, Isaw God everywhere. I could have get killed and He did help me. I went out and for every event I was the highest of them all. In the cohouse(ph), in there, the head of the cohouse(ph) didn't know how to write. Whoever came there, they came to me and I had to give hima thing. So there in the woods I was also one of the bestcutters there and Iwas respected. So that what it was. Why?

Because He help me. I'll tell you something, when God _ -- I don't know, but always I did believe in God. Especially when they say it was one God, one God. So Ido believe this God, He did create the world and He did create our world. He did create us. Now you will ask me, "How did he create us?" I'll tell you how. Did you ever hear of Abraham and Sarah?Sarah, when she was young, she couldn't have any children. She was crying and begging. But when she was 90-years old, when she could not have children, then God gave herthat she had one son, Yitzchok. So Yitzchok was the creation. Because by 90 years she couldn't have it. He was a creation. Now, what happened to Yitzchok? After being 37 years old God told Abraham to take Yitzchok and give to God as aqurban. You know what means a qurban?

Q: Sacrifice.

A: As audhiyyah, what isan udhiyyah. Qurban you give for all different things, an udhiyyah is a special -- you're giving a gift to God. To give him as a gift. So how you have todo it? Kill him and give it to God.So what The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 25

happened? Abraham did not believe that God wanted to killhim. So what then he

saw that nothing around. He lift up this knife and said to God, "Now you have

him." God stopped him and said, "No, I don't want him to be killed." He didn't

say, "Don't touch your son," but "Don't touch this boy." Why? Because as a son

you gave him to me, so he's my son and to you he's just a boy.Do you

understand? So what did God do? He gave him -- he gave him a animal, a kosher

animal. There -- this animal couldn't walk any farther because _ stopped it. And he

took Avram and killed the animal. He gave it to God instead Yitzchok, and

Yitzchok was already God's son. This way we are children of Yitzchok, and this

is our God. That'swhy I believe in God. You understand what I'm talking about?

Now, we had Arvam, Yitzchok and Jacob. They are our forefathers. And we

have foremothers, and they did have their children and this way God did create

our nation. Now, if you'll ask me why did God need us? You know how? Because

did you ever hear of Noah? Noah was the only one believing in God. So Noah...

{Document handed}

Q: My question is, but many people who suffered ask where was God during the

Shoah?

A: Just yesterday, that means the whole week, every Shabbat, every Saturday, we

do read a part of our Torah, of our... Yesterday were two parts reading. In one

part God says: You Jews, my children, you have to behave so and so and so and

so and so and so, and He giving us an order how we should behave in order He

should be with us. In the other part he says:If you won'tdo what I told you, if The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 26

you won't be like that, I'll bury you, I'll kill you, and then all the nations will be

stronger than you and they will kill you. And that's what did happen.So seems to

be that the Jews did not behave right to God and that's why he did punish us

with that thing. It was a punishment. And then he says: After this punishment

I'll remember you will (?lend?) Israel."I'll remember." Not "I'll give you back

the whole of Israel," but a part of it. And that's what he did. He gave us a part of

Israel. And that's what I believe. Isee that everything what they did right went

through. And do you know what? When Ihad my business -- maybe I shouldn't

tell you that -- one girl, an Italian girl, older girl, said, "Jesus is God." I telled her,

"How can this be?" "He is God. He is God." I said, "What happened to the God

which was until him?" So he had probably to go to the unemployment! He lost

his job.

{Laughter}

Q: It's logical. Did she have an answer?

A: So that's why I believe in God.

Q: I understand.

A: And now I want to tell you, I believe that every religion is good as long it

doesn't say about killing other ones, to preach for thatkilling other nations or killing

the Jews and so far and so on, or hate him.They are good religion. Matter of a

fact is you have now here, in Italy, Italian people -- not Italy, what --they believe

in cows.

Q: Oh, you mean Hindus. The Hindu religion.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 27

A: They believe--

Q: Cows are sacred.

A: -- those are their gods.

Q: Uh-huh.

A: How can you understand it? Ido understand it. People like to see things.

They don't have enough of imagination to believe in God which you don'tsee.

You see is acting. A matter of a fact is He said to -- Moses asked God, "I would

like to seeyou." So God told him, "I'll take you up there. You can see me and to

live, but you can see my back, not my face." What do that mean? You can see

my background, what I did, and then you can see me in your imagination. That

means don't believe in nobody's face. Some people are good acting and they will

act nice, just believe what they did.

Q: Okay. So [come back to the Shoah.

A: Huh?

Q: Icome back to my question about the Shoah, what you said.

A: Let me read it.

Q: Yeah. This one. The question that I gave Mr. Shulim to read is that many

people would be very upset and hurt to hear that the Jews aresomehow

responsible for what happened to themduring World War II and is this what he

meant to say. This is what I want to ask him.

A: I told you already. Certain things we can't help.

Q: Okay.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 28

A: But [knew some people, they were very wrong in their acting, and in their

thinking, and they did play as Jews but they were not. Imean they're Jews but

they did not act like them.

Q: Okay.

A: Some of them do not believe in nothing. They say nothing exists. So, that

what happen.

Q: So you see it--

A: We got punished this way.

Q: Okay.

A: [believe strongly in our God. And, asI told you before, every religion is

good as long they don't preach hateness --

Q: Yes.

A: -- or killing even.

Q: Okay. My next question and my finalquestion. Is there anything you would like

to add to your story? Here {Document handed}

A: Twill know it later! {Laughter}

Q: That's right. Often times people forget during the interview and they think of

what they would have liked to say after.

A: I told whatever I had in my mind. Later there will come something else.

Q: Call me! {Laughter} Okay. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Shulim Jonas.

A: Okay. Let us be well, all, and to believe in good things.

Q: Thank you.

The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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Interview with Shulim Jonas 29

A: And to act good.

Q: Thank you. Yes.

A: And be human.

Q: Lagree. Lagree. This concludes our United States Holocaust Memorial

Museum Interview with Mr. Shulim Jonas on May 5, 2013. Thank you very

much.

Conclusion of Interview The following transcript is the result of a recorded interview. The recording is the primary source document, not this transcript. It has not been checked for spelling nor verified for accuracy. This document should not be quoted or used without first checking it against the interview.

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