Title: To James Madison from George Washington, 22 October 1787
From: Washington, George
To: Madison, James

My dear Sir,
Mount Vernon Octr. 22d. 1787.
When I last wrote to you, I was uninformed of the Sentiments of this State beyond the circle of Alexandria, with respect to the New Constitution. Since, a letter which I received by the last Post, dated the 16th., from a Member of the Assembly, contains the following paragraphs.
“I believe such an instance has not happened before, since the Revolution, that there should be a house on the first day of the Session, and business immediately taken up. This was not only the case on Monday, but there was a full house; when Mr. Prentice was called up to the Chair as Speaker, there being no opposition. Thus, the Session has commenced peaceably.”

“It gives me much pleasure to inform you that the sentiments of the members are infinitely more favourable to the Constitution than the most zealous advocates for it could have expected. I have not met with one in all my enquiries (and I have made them with great diligence) opposed to it, except Mr. Henry who I have heard is so, but could only conjecture it, from a conversation with him on the Subject. Other members who have also been active in their enquiries tell me, that they have met with none opposed to it. It is said however that old Mr. Cabell of Amherst disapproves of it. Mr. Nicholas has declared himself a warm friend to it.”
“The transmissory note of Congress was before us to day, when Mr. Henry declared that it transcended our powers to decide on the Constitution; that it must go before a Convention. As it was insinuated he would aim at preventing this, much pleasure was discovered at the declaration. Thursday week (the 25th.) is fixed upon for taking up the question of calling the Convention, and fixing the time of its meeting: In the meantime, five thousand copies are ordered to be printed, to be dispersed by the members in their respective Counties for the information of the People. I cannot forbear mentioning that the Chancellor, Pendleton, espouses the Constitution so warmly as to declare he will give it his aid in the Convention, if his health will permit. As their are few better judges of such subjects, this must be deemed a fortunate circumstance.”
As the above quotations is the sum of my information, I shall add nothing more on the subject of the proposed government, at this time.
Mr. C. Pinkney is unwilling (I perceive by the enclosures contained in your letter of the 13th.) to loose any fame that can be acquired by the publication of his sentiments. If the discussion of the navigation of the Mississipi could have remained as silent, & glided as gently down the Stream of time for a few years, as the waters do, that are contained within the banks of that River, it would, I confess, have comported more with my ideas of sound policy than any decision the case can obtain at this juncture. With sentiments the most Affecte. and friendly I am, Dear Sir Yr. Most Obedt Serv


Title: From James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, 24 October 1787
From: Madison, James
To: Jefferson, Thomas

Editorial Note
Shortly before the Philadelphia convention adjourned, JM confided to Jefferson his opinion that the proposed Constitution would “neither effectually answer its national object nor prevent the local mischiefs which every where excite disgusts agst the state governments” (6 Sept. 1787 [partly in code]). The letter printed below, running to seventeen manuscript pages, contains JM’s detailed explanation of that opinion and reveals that the man who later became an indefatigable publicist in support of the new Constitution was in fact profoundly disappointed with the results of the convention. JM doubted the workability of the plan agreed upon at Philadelphia because it lacked the one ingredient that in his view was essential for establishing the supremacy of the central government and for protecting the private rights of individuals: a power vested in the national legislature to negative, or veto, state laws.
Unable to convince his colleagues at Philadelphia of the necessity of this veto power, JM knew that Jefferson was likewise not favorably disposed to lodge such a power in the hands of the central government. “Primâ facie I do not like it,” Jefferson had remarked of the negative in his letter to JM of 20 June 1787. “It fails in an essential character, that the hole & the patch should be commensurate. But this proposes to mend a small hole by covering the whole garment.” Because of the central importance of this prerogative in his scheme for a well-ordered confederacy, JM must have read these harsh comments with some displeasure. His response to Jefferson’s criticism was a carefully reasoned defense of the negative, in effect a separate essay (an “immoderate digression,” JM called it) within the letter, that drew upon his research into the history of confederations and restated his theory of the extended federal republic. This theory JM later embodied in The Federalist, Nos. 10 and 51, but “Publius,” not being required to defend a general veto power over state legislation, did not refer to the negative.
Indeed, because “Publius” did not need to discuss the negative, JM’s essays in The Federalist are an incomplete statement of his political thought. One must turn to this letter to Jefferson to observe the full scope of his ideas. Here for the first time he made clear the complementary role of the negative in his republican theory. JM had introduced the idea of a negative power in letters to Jefferson, Randolph, and Washington before the Federal Convention met, but he did not at that time explain why the central government, armed with this veto power over state laws, would act as a “disinterested & dispassionate umpire in disputes between different passions & interests in the State” without becoming an engine of tyranny (PJMWilliam T. Hutchinson et al., eds., The
          Papers of James Madison (10 vols. to date; Chicago, 1962——)., IX, 384). He provided that explanation in this letter to Jefferson, in which he undertook to prove that “private rights will be more secure under the Guardianship of the General Government than under the State Governments.” JM developed this argument by means of a full exposition of his theory of the extended republic. A government of extended jurisdiction, composed of representatives of a multitude of diverse interests that would constantly check each other, would not likely fall into the hands of a majority “united by a common interest or passion.” It followed that such a government, immune from the virus of tyranny by the majority, could safely be entrusted with the negative and thereby control that virus at the state level where it was most rampant.

To JM the Constitution, without the negative, was only a partial reform and thus probably doomed to failure. It was only a slight improvement over the Articles of Confederation—”a feudal system of republics” rather than “a Confederacy of independent States.” It was not enough that the Constitution embodied his theory of the extended republic, which could only help to prevent injustice at the federal level. The real source of injustice, as JM repeatedly emphasized, was to be found at the state level, and the only effective barrier to the policies of oppressive majorities there was a federal veto on state laws. A constitution that did not vest the central government with this prerogative could not effectively provide justice, which JM believed to be the true end of republican government.
JM made his own copy of that part of the letter dealing with the negative, an indication that he considered it to be an important statement of his political thought. It is not known when JM made this extract, but the firm handwriting suggests that he might well have made the copy contemporaneously, perhaps during the week between the writing and sending of the letter. Although it is now among the Jefferson Papers (DLC), the recipient’s copy of this letter, along with JM’s other letters to Jefferson, was returned to JM after Jefferson’s death. The letter was at Montpelier in the fall of 1834 when Nicholas P. Trist made a long extract from it, covering everything relating to the Constitution. Trist, whose wife was Jefferson’s granddaughter, was at that time searching through Jefferson’s papers “for materials to put the measures of ’98–’99 in their true light, and thus to vindicate his memory & that of his co-laborers from the deep reproach of having given birth to the doctrine of Nullification as now understood.” Trist requested and was given permission to consult JM’s papers at Montpelier for the same purpose (Trist to JM, 20 and 29 Aug. 1834 [ViHi]; JM to Trist, 25 Aug. 1834, Madison, Letters [Cong. ed.][William C. Rives and Philip R. Fendall, eds.], Letters and Other Writings of James Madison (published by order
        of Congress; 4 vols.; Philadelphia, 1865)., IV, 354).

Dear Sir
New York Octr. 24. 1787.
My two last, though written for the two last Packets, have unluckily been delayed till this conveyance. The first of them was sent from Philada. to Commodore Jones in consequence of information that he was certainly to go by the Packet then about to sail. Being detained here by his business with Congress, and being unwilling to put the letter into the mail without my approbation which could not be obtained in time, he detained the letter also. The second was sent from Philada. to Col. Carrington, with a view that it might go by the last packet at all events in case Commodore Jones should meet with further detention here. By ill luck he was out of Town, and did not return till it was too late to make use of the opportunity. Neither of the letters were indeed of much consequence at the time, and are still less so now. I let them go forward nevertheless as they may mention some circumstances not at present in my recollection, and as they will prevent a chasm in my part of [illegible] correspondence which I have so many motives to cherish by an exact punctuality.
Your favor of June 20. has been already acknowledged. The last Packet from France brought me that of August 2d. I have recd. also by the Mary Capt. Howland the three Boxes for W.H. B.F. and myself. The two first have been duly forwarded. The contents of the last are a valuable addition to former literary remittances and lay me under additional obligations, which I shall always feel more strongly than I express. The articles included for Congress have been delivered & those for the two Universities and for General Washington have been forwarded, as have been the various letters for your friends in Virginia and elsewhere. The parcel of rice referred to in your letter to the Delegates of S. Carolina has met with some accident. No account whatever can be gathered concerning it. It probably was not shipped from France. Ubbo’s book I find was not omitted as you seem to have apprehended. The charge for it however is, which I must beg you to supply. The duplicate vol. of the Encyclopedie, I left in Virginia, and it is uncertain when I shall have an opportunity of returning it. Your Spanish duplicates will I fear be hardly vendible. I shall make a trial wherever a chance presents itself. A few days ago I recd. your favor of the 15 of Augst. via L’Orient & Boston. The letters inclosed along with it were immediately sent on to Virga.
You will herewith receive the result of the Convention, which continued its Session till the 17th. of September. I take the liberty of making some observations on the subject which will help to make up a letter, if they should answer no other purpose.
It appeared to be the sincere and unanimous wish of the Convention to cherish and preserve the Union of the States. No proposition was made, no suggestion was thrown out, in favor of a partition of the Empire into two or more Confederacies.
It was generally agreed that the objects of the Union could not be secured by any system founded on the principle of a confederation of sovereign States. A voluntary observance of the federal law by all the members, could never be hoped for. A compulsive one could evidently never be reduced to practice, and if it could, involved equal calamities to the innocent & the guilty, the necessity of a military force both obnoxious & dangerous, and in general, a scene resembling much more a civil war, than the administration of a regular Government.
Hence was embraced the alternative of a Government which instead of operating, on the States, should operate without their intervention on the individuals composing them: and hence the change in the principle and proportion of representation.
This ground-work being laid, the great objects which presented themselves were 1. to unite a proper energy in the Executive and a proper stability in the Legislative departments, with the essential characters of Republican Government. 2. to draw a line of demarkation which would give to the General Government every power requisite for general purposes, and leave to the States every power which might be most beneficially administered by them. 3. to provide for the different interests of different parts of the Union. 4. to adjust the clashing pretensions of the large and small States. Each of these objects was pregnant with difficulties. The whole of them together formed a task more difficult than can be well concieved by those who were not concerned in the execution of it. Adding to these considerations the natural diversity of human opinions on all new and complicated subjects, it is impossible to consider the degree of concord which ultimately prevailed as less than a miracle.
The first of these objects as it respects the Executive, was peculiarly embarrassing. On the question whether it should consist of a single person, or a plurality of co-ordinate members, on the mode of appointment, on the duration in office, on the degree of power, on the re-eligibility, tedious and reiterated discussions took place. The plurality of co-ordinate members had finally but few advocates. Governour Randolph was at the head of them. The modes of appointment proposed were various, as by the people at large—by electors chosen by the people—by the Executives of the States—by the Congress, some preferring a joint ballot of the two Houses—some a separate concurrent ballot allowing to each a negative on the other house—some a nomination of several canditates [sic] by one House, out of whom a choice should be made by the other. Several other modifications were started. The expedient at length adopted seemed to give pretty general satisfaction to the members. As to the duration in office, a few would have preferred a tenure during good behaviour—a considerable number would have done so, in case an easy & effectual removal by impeachment could be settled. It was much agitated whether a long term, seven years for example, with a subsequent & perpetual ineligibility, or a short term with a capacity to be re-elected, should be fixed. In favor of the first opinion were urged the danger of a gradual degeneracy of re-elections from time to time, into first a life and then a heriditary tenure, and the favorable effect of an incapacity to be reappointed, on the independent exercise of the Executive authority. On the other side it was contended that the prospect of necessary degradation, would discourage the most dignified characters from aspiring to the office, would take away the principal motive to the faithful discharge of its duties—the hope of being rewarded with a reappointment, would stimulate ambition to violent efforts for holding over the constitutional term—and instead of producing an independent administration, and a firmer defence of the constitutional rights of the department, would render the officer more indifferent to the importance of a place which he would soon be obliged to quit for ever, and more ready to yield to the incroachmts. of the Legislature of which he might again be a member. The questions concerning the degree of power turned chiefly on the appointment to offices, and the controul on the Legislature. An absolute appointment to all offices—to some offices—to no offices, formed the scale of opinions on the first point. On the second, some contended for an absolute negative, as the only possible mean of reducing to practice, the theory of a free Government which forbids a mixture of the Legislative & Executive powers. Others would be content with a revisionary power to be overruled by three fourths of both Houses. It was warmly urged that the judiciary department should be associated in the revision. The idea of some was that a separate revision should be given to the two departments—that if either objected two thirds; if both three fourths, should be necessary to overrule.
In forming the Senate, the great anchor of the Government, the questions as they came within the first object turned mostly on the mode of appointment, and the duration of it. The different modes proposed were, 1. by the House of Representatives 2. by the Executive, 3. by electors chosen by the people for the purpose. 4. by the State Legislatures. On the point of duration, the propositions descended from good-behavior to four years, through the intermediate terms of nine, seven, six, & five years. The election of the other branch was first determined to be triennial, and afterwards reduced to biennial.
The second object, the due partition of power, between the General & local Governments, was perhaps of all, the most nice and difficult. A few contended for an entire abolition of the States; some for indefinite power of Legislation in the Congress, with a negative on the laws of the States: some for such a power without a negative: some for a limited power of legislation, with such a negative: the majority finally for a limited power without the negative. The question with regard to the Negative underwent repeated discussions, and was finally rejected by a bare majority. As I formerly intimated to you my opinion in favor of this ingredient, I will take this occasion of explaining myself on the subject. Such a check on the States appears to me necessary 1. to prevent encroachments on the General authority. 2. to prevent instability and injustice in the legislation of the States.
1. Without such a check in the whole over the parts, our system involves the evil of imperia in imperio. If a compleat supremacy some where is not necessary in every Society, a controuling power at least is so, by which the general authority may be defended against encroachments of the subordinate authorities, and by which the latter may be restrained from encroachments on each other. If the supremacy of the British Parliament is not necessary as has been contended, for the harmony of that Empire; it is evident I think that without the royal negative or some equivalent controul, the unity of the system would be destroyed. The want of some such provision seems to have been mortal to the antient Confederacies, and to be the disease of the modern. Of the Lycian Confederacy little is known. That of the Amphyctions is well known to have been rendered of little use whilst it lasted, and in the end to have been destroyed by the predominance of the local over the federal authority. The same observation may be made, on the authority of Polybius, with regard to the Achæan League. The Helvetic System scarcely amounts to a Confederacy, and is distinguished by too many peculiarities, to be a ground of comparison. The case of the United Netherlands is in point. The authority of a Statholder, the influence of a Standing army, the common interest in the conquered possessions, the pressure of surrounding danger, the guarantee of foreign powers, are not sufficient to secure the authority and interests of the generality, agst. the antifederal tendency of the provincial sovereignties. The German Empire is another example. A Hereditary chief with vast independent resources of wealth and power, a federal Diet, with ample parchment authority, a regular Judiciary establishment, the influence of the neighbourhood of great & formidable Nations, have been found unable either to maintain the subordination of the members, or to prevent their mutual contests & encroachments. Still more to the purpose is our own experience both during the war and since the peace. Encroachments of the States on the general authority, sacrifices of national to local interests, interferences of the measures of different States, form a great part of the history of our political system. It may be said that the new Constitution is founded on different principles, and will have a different operation. I admit the difference to be material. It presents the aspect rather of a feudal system of republics, if such a phrase may be used, than of a Confederacy of independent States. And what has been the progress and event of the feudal Constitutions? In all of them a continual struggle between the head and the inferior members, until a final victory has been gained in some instances by one, in others, by the other of them. In one respect indeed there is a remarkable variance between the two cases. In the feudal system the sovereign, though limited, was independent; and having no particular sympathy of interests with the great Barons, his ambition had as full play as theirs in the mutual projects of usurpation. In the American Constitution The general authority will be derived entirely from the subordinate authorities. The Senate will represent the States in their political capacity; the other House will represent the people of the States in their individual capac[it]y. The former will be accountable to their constituents at moderate, the latter at short periods. The President also derives his appointment from the States, and is periodically accountable to them. This dependence of the General, on the local authorities, seems effectually to guard the latter against any dangerous encroachments of the former: Whilst the latter, within their respective limits, will be continually sensible of the abridgment of their power, and be stimulated by ambition to resume the surrendered portion of it. We find the representatives of Counties and corporations in the Legislatures of the States, much more disposed to sacrifice the aggregate interest, and even authority, to the local views of their Constituents: than the latter to the former. I mean not by these remarks to insinuate that an esprit de corps will not exist in the national Government or that opportunities may not occur, of extending its jurisdiction in some points. I mean only that the danger of encroachments is much greater from the other side, and that the impossibility of dividing powers of legislation, in such a manner, as to be free from different constructions by different interests, or even from ambiguity in the judgment of the impartial, requires some such expedient as I contend for. Many illustrations might be given of this impossibility. How long has it taken to fix, and how imperfectly is yet fixed the legislative power of corporations, though that power is subordinate in the most compleat manner? The line of distinction between the power of regulating trade and that of drawing revenue from it, which was once considered as the barrier of our liberties, was found on fair discussion, to be absolutely undefinable. No distinction seems to be more obvious than that between spiritual and temporal matters. Yet wherever they have been made objects of Legislation, they have clashed and contended with each other, till one or the other has gained the supremacy. Even the boundaries between the Executive, Legislative & Judiciary powers, though in general so strongly marked in themselves, consist in many instances of mere shades of difference. It may be said that the Judicial authority under our new system will keep the States within their proper limits, and supply the place of a negative on their laws. The answer is, that it is more convenient to prevent the passage of a law, than to declare it void after it is passed; that this will be particularly the case, where the law aggrieves individuals, who may be unable to support an appeal agst. a State to the supreme Judiciary; that a State which would violate the Legislative rights of the Union, would not be very ready to obey a Judicial decree in support of them, and that a recurrence to force, which in the event of disobedience would be necessary, is an evil which the new Constitution meant to exclude as far as possible.

2. A constitutional negative on the laws of the States seems equally necessary to secure individuals agst. encroachments on their rights. The mutability of the laws of the States is found to be a serious evil. The injustice of them has been so frequent and so flagrant as to alarm the most stedfast friends of Republicanism. I am persuaded I do not err in saying that the evils issuing from these sources contributed more to that uneasiness which produced the Convention, and prepared the public mind for a general reform, than those which accrued to our national character and interest from the inadequacy of the Confederation to its immediate objects. A reform therefore which does not make provision for private rights, must be materially defective. The restraints agst. paper emissions, and violations of contracts are not sufficient. Supposing them to be effectual as far as they go, they are short of the mark. Injustice may be effected by such an infinitude of legislative expedients, that where the disposition exists it can only be controuled by some provision which reaches all cases whatsoever. The partial provision made, supposes the disposition which will evade it. It may be asked how private rights will be more secure under the Guardianship of the General Government than under the State Governments, since they are both founded on the republican principle which refers the ultimate decision to the will of the majority, and are distinguished rather by the extent within which they will operate, than by any material difference in their structure. A full discussion of this question would, if I mistake not, unfold the true principles of Republican Government, and prove in contradiction to the concurrent opinions of theoretical writers, that this form of Goverment, in order to effect its purposes, must operate not within a small but an extensive sphere. I will state some of the ideas which have occurred to me on this subject. Those who contend for a simple Democracy, or a pure republic, actuated by the sense of the majority, and operating within narrow limits, assume or suppose a case which is altogether fictitious. They found their reasoning on the idea, that the people composing the Society, enjoy not only an equality of political rights; but that they have all precisely the same interests, and the same feelings in every respect. Were this in reality the case, their reasoning would be conclusive. The interest of the majority would be that of the minority also; the decisions could only turn on mere opinion concerning the good of the whole, of which the major voice would be the safest criterion; and within a small sphere, this voice could be most easily collected, and the public affairs most accurately managed. We know however that no Society ever did or can consist of so homogeneous a mass of Citizens. In the savage State indeed, an approach is made towards it; but in that State little or no Government is necessary. In all civilized Societies, distinctions are various and unavoidable. A distinction of property results from that very protection which a free Government gives to unequal faculties of acquiring it. There will be rich and poor; creditors and debtors; a landed interest, a monied interest, a mercantile interest, a manufacturing interest. These classes may again be subdivided according to the different productions of different situations & soils, & according to different branches of commerce, and of manufactures. In addition to these natural distinctions, artificial ones will be founded, on accidental differences in political, religious or other opinions, or an attachment to the persons of leading individuals. However erroneous or ridiculous these grounds of dissention and faction, may appear to the enlightened Statesman, or the benevolent philosopher, the bulk of mankind who are neither Statesmen nor Philosophers, will continue to view them in a different light. It remains then to be enquired whether a majority having any common interest, or feeling any common passion, will find sufficient motives to restrain them from oppressing the minority. An individual is never allowed to be a judge or even a witness in his own cause. If two individuals are under the biass of interest or enmity agst. a third, the rights of the latter could never be safely referred to the majority of the three. Will two thousand individuals be less apt to oppress one thousand, or two hundred thousand, one hundred thousand? Three motives only can restrain in such cases. 1. a prudent regard to private or partial good, as essentially involved in the general and permanent good of the whole. This ought no doubt to be sufficient of itself. Experience however shews that it has little effect on individuals, and perhaps still less on a collection of individuals, and least of all on a majority with the public authority in their hands. If the former are ready to forget that honesty is the best policy; the last do more. They often proceed on the converse of the maxim: that whatever is politic is honest. 2. respect for character. This motive is not found sufficient to restrain individuals from injustice, and loses its efficacy in proportion to the number which is to divide the praise or the blame. Besides as it has reference to public opinion, which is that of the majority, the Standard is fixed by those whose conduct is to be measured by it. 3. Religion. The inefficacy of this restraint on individuals is well known. The conduct of every popular Assembly, acting on oath, the strongest of religious ties, shews that individuals join without remorse in acts agst. which their consciences would revolt, if proposed to them separately in their closets. When Indeed Religion is kindled into enthusiasm, its force like that of other passions is increased by the sympathy of a multitude. But enthusiasm is only a temporary state of Religion, and whilst it lasts will hardly be seen with pleasure at the helm. Even in its coolest state, it has been much oftener a motive to oppression than a restraint from it. If then there must be different interests and parties in Society; and a majority when united by a common interest or passion can not be restrained from oppressing the minority, what remedy can be found in a republican Government, where the majority must ultimately decide, but that of giving such an extent to its sphere, that no common interest or passion will be likely to unite a majority of the whole number in an unjust pursuit. In a large Society, the people are broken into so many interests and parties, that a common sentiment is less likely to be felt, and the requisite concert less likely to be formed, by a majority of the whole. The same security seems requisite for the civil as for the religious rights of individuals. If the same sect form a majority and have the power, other sects will be sure to be depressed. Divide et impera, the reprobated axiom of tyranny, is under certain qualifications, the only policy, by which a republic can be administered on just principles. It must be observed however that this doctrine can only hold within a sphere of a mean extent. As in too small a sphere oppressive combinations may be too easily formed agst. the weaker party; so in too extensive a one, a defensive concert may be rendered too difficult against the oppression of those entrusted with the administration. The great desideratum in Government is, so to modify the sovereignty as that it may be sufficiently neutral between different parts of the Society to controul one part from invading the rights of another, and at the same time sufficiently controuled itself, from setting up an interest adverse to that of the entire Society. In absolute monarchies, the Prince may be tolerably neutral towards different classes of his subjects, but may sacrifice the happiness of all to his personal ambition or avarice. In small republics, the sovereign will is controuled from such a sacrifice of the entire Society, but is not sufficiently neutral towards the parts composing it. In the extended Republic of the United States, The General Government would hold a pretty even balance between the parties of particular States, and be at the same time sufficiently restrained by its dependence on the community, from betraying its general interests.
Begging pardon for this immoderate digression I return to the third object abovementioned, the adjustment of the different interests of different parts of the Continent. Some contended for an unlimited power over trade including exports as well as imports, and over slaves as well as other imports; some for such a power, provided the concurrence of two thirds of both House were required; Some for such a qualification of the power, with an exemption of exports and slaves, others for an exemption of exports only. The result is seen in the Constitution. S. Carolina & Georgia were inflexible on the point of the slaves.

The remaining object created more embarrassment, and a greater alarm for the issue of the Convention than all the rest put together. The little States insisted on retaining their equality in both branches, unless a compleat abolition of the State Governments should take place; and made an equality in the Senate a sine qua non. The large States on the other hand urged that as the new Government was to be drawn principally from the people immediately and was to operate directly on them, not on the States; and consequently as the States wd. lose that importance which is now proportioned to the importance of their voluntary compliances with the requisitions of Congress, it was necessary that the representation in both Houses should be in proportion to their size. It ended in the compromise which you will see, but very much to the dissatisfaction of several members from the large States.
It will not escape you that three names only from Virginia are subscribed to the Act. Mr. Wythe did not return after the death of his lady. Docr. MClurg left the Convention some time before the adjournment. The Governour and Col. Mason refused to be parties to it. Mr. Gerry was the only other member who refused. The objections of the Govr. turn principally on the latitude of the general powers, and on the connection established between the President and the Senate. He wished that the plan should be proposed to the States with liberty to them to suggest alterations which should all be referred to another general Convention, to be incorporated into the plan as far as might be judged expedient. He was not inveterate in his opposition, and grounded his refusal to subscribe pretty much on his unwillingness to commit himself, so as not to be at liberty to be governed by further lights on the subject. Col. Mason left Philada. in an exceeding ill humour indeed. A number of little circumstances arising in part from the impatience which prevailed towards the close of the business, conspired to whet his acrimony. He returned to Virginia with a fixed disposition to prevent the adoption of the plan if possible. He considers the want of a Bill of Rights as a fatal objection. His other objections are to the substitution of the Senate in place of an Executive Council & to the powers vested in that body—to the powers of the Judiciary—to the vice President being made President of the Senate—to the smallness of the number of Representatives—to the restriction on the States with regard to ex post facto laws—and most of all probably to the power of regulating trade, by a majority only of each House. He has some other lesser objections. Being now under the necessity of justifying his refusal to sign, he will of course muster every possible one. His conduct has given great umbrage to the County of Fairfax, and particularly to the Town of Alexandria. He is already instructed to promote in the Assembly the calling a Convention, and will probably be either not deputed to the Convention, or be tied up by express instructions. He did not object in general to the powers vested in the National Government, so much as to the modification. In some respects he admitted that some further powers would have improved the system. He acknowledged in particular that a negative on the State laws, and the appointment of the State Executives ought to be ingredients; but supposed that the public mind would not now bear them, and that experience would hereafter produce these amendments.
The final reception which will be given by the people at large to the proposed System can not yet be decided. The Legislature of N. Hampshire was sitting when it reached that State and was well pleased with it. As far as the sense of the people there has been expressed, it is equally favorable. Boston is warm and almost unanimous in embracing it. The impression on the Country is not yet known. No symptoms of disapprobation have appeared. The Legislature of that State is now sitting, through which the sense of the people at large will soon be promulged with tolerable certainty. The paper money faction in Rh. Island is hostile. The other party zealously attached to it. Its passage through Connecticut is likely to be very smooth and easy. There seems to be less agitation in this State than any where. The discussion of the subject seems confined to the newspapers. The principal characters are known to be friendly. The Governour’s party which has hitherto been the popular & most numerous one, is supposed to be on the opposite side; but considerable reserve is practised, of which he sets the example. N. Jersey takes the affirmative side of course. Meetings of the people are declaring their approbation, and instructing their representatives. Penna. will be divided. The City of Philada., the Republican party, the Quakers, and most of the Germans espouse the Constitution. Some of the Constitutional leaders, backed by the western Country will oppose. An unlucky ferment on the subject in their Assembly just before its late adjournment has irritated both sides, particularly the opposition, and by redoubling the exertions of that party may render the event doubtful. The voice of Maryland I understand from pretty good authority, is, as far as it has been declared, strongly in favor of the Constitution. Mr. Chase is an enemy, but the Town of Baltimore which he now represents, is warmly attached to it, and will shackle him as far as they can. Mr. Paca will probably be, as usual, in the politics of Chase. My information from Virginia is as yet extremely imperfect. I have a letter from Genl. Washington which speaks favorably of the impression within a circle of some extent; and another from Chancellor Pendleton which expresses his full acceptance of the plan, and the popularity of it in his district. I am told also that Innis and Marshall are patrons of it. In the opposite scale are Mr. James Mercer, Mr. R. H. Lee, Docr. Lee and their connections of course, Mr. M. Page according to Report, and most of the Judges & Bar of the general Court. The part which Mr. Henry will take is unknown here. Much will depend on it. I had taken it for granted from a variety of circumstances that he wd. be in the opposition, and still think that will be the case. There are reports however which favor a contrary supposition. From the States South of Virginia nothing has been heard. As the deputation from S. Carolina consisted of some of its weightiest characters, who have returned unanimously zealous in favor of the Constitution, it is probable that State will readily embrace it. It is not less probable, that N. Carolina will follow the example unless that of Virginia should counterbalance it. Upon the whole, although, the public mind will not be fully known, nor finally settled for a considerable time, appearances at present augur a more prompt, and general adoption of the Plan than could have been well expected.
When the plan came before Congs. for their sanction, a very serious effort was made by R. H. Lee & Mr. Dane from Masts. to embarrass it. It was first contended that Congress could not properly give any positive countenance to a measure which had for its object the subversion of the Constitution under which they acted. This ground of attack failing, the former gentleman urged the expediency of sending out the plan with amendments, & proposed a number of them corresponding with the objections of Col. Mason. This experiment had still less effect. In order however to obtain unanimity it was necessary to couch the resolution in very moderate terms.
Mr. Adams has recd. permission to return, with thanks for his Services. No provision is made for supplying his place, or keeping up any represention there. Your reappointment for three years will be notified from the Office of F. Affrs. It was made without a negative eight states being present. Connecticut however put in a blank ticket the sense of that state having been declared against embassies. Massachusets betrayed some scruple on like ground. Every personal consideration was avowed & I beleive with sincerity to have militated against these scruples. It seems to be understood that letters to & from the foreign Ministers of the U.S. are not free of Postage: but that the charge is to be allowed in their accounts.
The exchange of our French for Dutch Creditors has not been countenanced either by Congress or the Treasury Board. The paragraph in your last letter to Mr. Jay, on the subject of applying a loan in Holland to the discharge of the pay due to the foreign Officers has been referred to the Board since my arrival here. No report has yet been made. But I have little idea that the proposition will be adopted. Such is the state & prospect of our fiscal department that any new loan however small, that should now be made, would probably subject us to the reproach of premeditated deception. The balance of Mr. Adams’ last loan will be wanted for the interest due in Holland, and with all the income here, will, it is feared, not save our credit in Europe from further wounds. It may well be doubted whether the present Govt. can be kept alive thro’ the ensuing year, or untill the new one may take its place.
Upwards of 100,000 Acres of the surveyed lands of the U.S. have been disposed of in open market. Five million of unsurveyed have been sold by private contract to a N. England Company, at ⅔ of a dollar per acre, payment to be made in the principal of the public securities. A negociation is nearly closed with a N. Jersey Company for two million more on like terms, and another commenced with a Company of this City for four million. Col. Carrington writes more fully on this subject.
You will receive herewith the desired information from Alderman Broome in the case of Mr. Burke. Also the Virga. Bill on crimes & punishments. Sundry alterations having been made in conformity to the sense of the House in its latter stages, it is less accurate & methodical than it ought to have been. To these papers I add a Speech of Mr. C. P. on the Missippi. business. It is printed under precautions of secrecy, but surely could not have been properly exposed to so much risk of publication. You will find also among the Pamplets & papers I send by Commodore Jones, another printed speech of the same Gentleman. The Musæum, Magazine, & Philada. Gazettes, will give you a tolerable idea of the objects of present attention.
The summer crops in the Eastern & Middle States have been extremely plentiful. Southward of Virga. They differ in different places. On the whole I do not know that they are bad in that region. In Virginia the drought has been unprecedented, particularly between the falls of the Rivers & the Mountains. The Crops of Corn are in general alarmingly short. In Orange I find there will be scarcely subsistence for the inhabitants. I have not heard from Albemarle. The crops of Tobo. are every where said to be pretty good in point of quantity; & the quality unusually fine. The crops of wheat were also in general excellent in quality & tolerable in quantity.
Novr. 1. Commodore Jones having preferred another vessel to the packet, has remained here till this time. The interval has produced little necessary to be added to the above. The Legislature of Massts. has it seems taken up the Act of the Convention, and have appointed or probably will appoint an early day for its State Convention. There are letters also from Georgia which denote a favorable disposition. I am informed from Richmond that the New Election-law from the Revised Code produced a pretty full House of Delegates, as well as a Senate, on the first day. It had previously had equal effect in producing full meetings of the freeholders for the County elections. A very decided majority of the Assembly is said to be zealous in favor of the New Constitution. The same is said of the Country at large. It appears however that individuals of great weight both within & without the Legislature are opposed to it. A letter I just have from Mr. A. Stuart, names Mr. Henry, Genl. Nelson, W. Nelson, the family of Cabels, St. George Tucker, John Taylor and the Judges of the Genl. Court except P. Carrington. The other opponents he describes as of too little note to be mentioned, which gives a negative information of the Characters on the other side. All are agreed that the plan must be submitted to a Convention.
We hear from Georgia that that State is threatened with a dangerous war with the Creek Indians. The alarm is of so serious a nature, that law-martial has been proclaimed, and they are proceeding to fortify even the Town of Savannah. The idea there, is that the Indians derive their motives as well as their means from their Spanish neighbours. Individuals complain also that their fugitive slaves are encouraged by East Florida. The policy of this is explained by supposing that it is considered as a discouragement to the Georgians to form settlements near the Spanish boundaries.
There are but few States on the spot here which will survive the expiration of the federal year; and it is extremely uncertain when a Congress will again be formed. We have not yet heard who are to be in the appointment of Virginia for the next year. With the most affectionate attachment I remain Dear Sr. Your Obed friend & servant
Js. Madison Jr.


Title: To James Madison from Ambrose Madison, ca. 25 October 1787
From: Madison, Ambrose
To: Madison, James

ca. 25 October 1787. Acknowledged in JM to Ambrose Madison, 8 Nov. 1787. Requests information concerning Mr. House’s rule for calculating the weight of tobacco. Asks JM if he will be a candidate for the Orange County delegation to the state ratifying convention.


Title: From James Madison to Tench Coxe, 26 October 1787
From: Madison, James
To: Coxe, Tench

Dear Sir
New York Octr. 26. 1787.
I have recd. your favor of the 21st. instant, and have disposed of the papers under the same cover according to direction. Col. Hamilton had returned to the City which gave me the opportunity of immediately putting into his hands such of them as were destined for him. I have no doubt that he will make the best use of them. I have recd. no answer yet from my correspondent to whom I forwarded the three first numbers of the American Citizen. The 4th. is a valuable continuation, and I shall be equally desirous of seeing it in the Virginia Gazettes; and indeed in those of every State.
I have not yet recd. any certain information of the reception given in Virginia to the Act of the Convention. I know only that within certain districts, and by respectable individuals, it is well relished, and that by some other individuals of influence it is likely to be opposed. The Legislature being now assembled, a few days will probably enable me to form a tolerable estimate of opinions there. With great respect & regard I remain Dr. Sir, Your Obedient & very respectful servt
Js. Madison Jr


Title: From James Madison to Joseph Jones, 26 October 1787
From: Madison, James
To: Jones, Joseph

26 October 1787. Acknowledged in Jones to JM, 22 Nov. 1787. Requests copy of the survey of the upper James River. Wishes to know where he can obtain some wild crab trees.


Title: From James Madison to Edmund Pendleton, 28 October 1787
From: Madison, James
To: Pendleton, Edmund

Dear Sir
New York Octr. 28. 1787.
I have recd. and acknowledge with great pleasure your favor of the 8th. instt. The remarks which you make on the Act of the Convention appear to me to be in general extremely well founded. Your criticism on the clause exempting vessels bound to or from a State from being obliged to enter &c in another is particularly so. This provision was dictated by the jealousy of some particular States, and was inserted pretty late in the Session. The object of it was what you conjecture. The expression is certainly not accurate. Is not a religious test as far as it is necessary, or would operate, involved in the oath itself? If the person swearing believes in the supreme Being who is invoked, and in the penal consequences of offending him, either in this or a future world or both, he will be under the same restraint from perjury as if he had previously subscribed a test requiring this belief. If the person in question be an unbeliever in these points and would notwithstanding take the oath, a previous test could have no effect. He would subscribe it as he would take the oath, without any principle that could be affected by either.
I find by a letter from Mr. Dawson that the proposed Constitution is receivd by the Assembly with a more prompt & general approbation than could well have been expected. The example of Virginia will have great weight, and the more so, as the disagreement of the deputation, will give it more the appearance of being the unbi[a]ssed expression of the Public mind. It would be truly mortifying if any thing should occur to prevent or retard the concurrence of a State which has generally taken the lead on great occasions. And it would be the more so in this case as it is generally believed that nine of the States at least will embrace the plan, and consequently that the tardy remainder must be reduced to the dilemma of either shifting for themselves, or coming in without any credit for it. There is great reason to believe that the Eastern States, R. Island excepted, will be among the foremost in adopting the system. No particular information is yet received from N. Hampshire. The presumptive evidence of its good disposition however is satisfactory. The Legislature of Massts. is now sitting, and letters from good authority, say that every thing goes well. Connecticut has unanimously called a Convention, and left no room to doubt her favorable disposition. This State has long had the character of being antifederal. Whether she will purge herself of it on this occasion, or not, is yet to be ascertained. Most of the respectable characters are zealous on the right side. The party in power is suspected on good grounds to be on the wrong one. N. Jersey adopts eagerly the Constitution. Penna. is considerably divided; but the majority are as yet clearly with the Convention. I have no very late information from Maryland. The reports are that the opposition will make no great figure. Not a word has been heard from the States South of Virginia, except from the lower parts of N. Carola. where the Constitution was well received. There can be little doubt I think that the three Southern States will go right unless the conduct of Virginia were to mislead them.
I inclose two of the last Newspapers of this place, to which I add one of Philadelphia, containing the report of a late important decision of the supreme Court there. If the report be faithful, I suspect it will not give you a high idea of the Chancery knowledge of the Cheif Justice. I am Dear Sir with sincere affection Yr. Obedt. friend & servt.
Js. Madison Jr.


Title: From James Madison to George Washington, 28 October 1787
From: Madison, James
To: Washington, George

Dear Sir
New York Octr. 28. 1787.
The mail of yesterday brought me your favor of the 22d. instant. The communications from Richmond give me as much pleasure, as they exceed my expectations. As I find by a letter from a Member of the Assembly, however, that Col. Mason had not got down, and it appears that Mr. Henry is not at bottom a friend, I am not without fears that their combined influence and management may yet create difficulties. There is one consideration which I think ought to have some weight in the case over and above the intrinsic inducements to embrace the Constitution, and which I have suggested to some of my correspondents. There is at present a very strong probability that nine States at least will pretty speedily concur in establishing it. What will become of the tardy remainder? They must be either left as outcasts from the Society to shift for themselves, or be compelled to come in, or must come in of themselves when they will be allowed no credit for it. Can either of these situations be as eligible as a prompt and manly determination to support the Union, and share its common fortunes?
My last stated pretty fully the information which had arrived here from different quarters, concerning the proposed Constitution. I recollect nothing that is now to be added farther than that the Assembly of Massachussetts now sitting certainly gives it a friendly reception. I inclose a Boston paper by which it appears that Governour Hancock has ushered it to them in as propitious a manner as could have been required.
Mr. P. ’s character is as you observe well marked by the publications which I inclosed. His printing the secret paper at this time could have no motive but the appetite for expected praise: for the subject to which it relates has been dormant a considerable time, and seems likely to remain so.
A foreign gentleman of merit, and who besides this general title, brings me a letter which gives him a particular claim, to my civilities, is very anxious to obtain a sketch of the Potowmac and the route from the highest navigable part of it, to the western waters which are to be connected with the potowmac by the portage; together with a sketch of the works which are going on, and a memorandum of the progress made in them. Knowing of no other channel through which I could enable myself to gratify this gentleman, I am seduced into the liberty of resorting to your kindness; and of requesting that if you have such a draught by you, your amanuensis may be permitted to take a very rough copy of it for me. In making this request I beseech you Sir to understand that I do it with not more confidence in your goodness than with the sincerest desire that it may be disregarded if it cannot be fulfilled with the most perfect conveniency. With sentiments of the most perfect esteem & the most Affecte. regard I remain Dear Sir, Your Obedt. friend & hble servt.
Js. Madison Jr.
The British Packet has arrived but I do not learn that any news comes by her. Her passage has been a tedious one.


Title: To James Madison from Daniel Carroll, 28 October 1787
From: Carroll, Daniel
To: Madison, James

Dear sr.,
Near Geo: Town Oct 28th. 1787
Yr. favor of the 17th Instant came to hand Yesterday. Since my return I have been so engag’d, particularly by attending on an aged sick parent, that I have not been in the way of obtaining any intelligence to be depended on, untill last monday when I saw General Washington at a meeting of the Potomack Compy. The information from him was pleasing; Docr. Stuart, Representative for Fairfax, writes to him from Richmond, that their was a full House the 1st day; & that he did not find a Member, but what appeard to be in favor of the New Govt., except Patrick Henry, who was reserv’d, but express’d sentiments in favor of recommending a Convention. I shall not add on this subject, as you will certainly have information directly from that quarter.
If the information I have receivd relating to this State can be depended on, every thing I hope will be right. Mr Carroll who waited for me, soon after saw Mr. Johnson, & sends me word that he is a warm friend. That Gentleman Mess Lee & Potts were chosen the following week representatives with a view principally of preventing Mischief and forwarding this great object. Mr Chace has I hear publishd a pr. under the Signature of Caution which indicates an adverse disposn. He has bound himself to propose a Convention; & if chosen of that Body will be bound to ratifye the proposed fœderal Govert; the impression in Baltimore being strong & general in favor of it.
The General informd me that Mr. Houston had call’d on him in his way to Georgia, & told him that Mr Yates (of the Co[n]vention) had declar’d himself a warm friend. Is this so?
Col. Mason had not sett off for the Assembly when I heard last: I overtook him & the Majr. on the road: By the time they had reachd within 9 Miles of Baltimore, they had exhausted all the stories of their youth &ca. and had enterd into a discusn. of the rights to the Western World. You know they are champions on opposite sides of this question. The Majr. having pushd the Col. hard on the Charters of Virginia the latter had just wax’d warm, when his Char[i]oteer put an end to the dispute, by jumbling their Honors together by an oversett. I came up soon after. They were both hurt—the Col. most so—he lost blood at Baltimore, & is well. Present my Comps. to Col. Hamilton & his Lady. I am, My dear Sir, with great esteem Yr. very Affte hble Servt.
Danl. Carroll


Title: To James Madison from Joseph Jones, 29 October 1787
From: Jones, Joseph
To: Madison, James

Dr. Sr.
Richmond 29th. Octr. 1787.
On my arrival in Richmond the other day I found your favor of the 7th. from New york with some news papers inclosed. Mr. Thomas Pleasants who called on me the next day inquired whether I had lately heard from you which being acknowledged brot. forward a conversation on the new constitution and finding him a strenuous advocate for it, I asked if he had seen or read some peices in favor of it under the signature of an American Citizen, he said he had not. I then informed him I had received some papers from you, which contained three numbers on the subject and did not doubt he wod. be pleased with the perusal of them; whereupon he signified his desire to possess them. When I delivered them to him I told him it wod. not I thought be amiss they were put into the Printers hands, that he might, if he thought proper, print them in the News paper here. He said he wod. think of it, and I have not seen him since. I shall speak to him again on the subject so soon as I meet with him but have no doubt he will endeavour to have them printed.
I must confess I see many objections to the Constitution submitted to the Conventions of the States. That which has the greatest weight with me lies agt. the constitution of the Senate, which being both legislative and Executive and in some respects judiciary is I think radically bad. The President and the Senate too may in some instances legislate for the Union, withot. the concurrence of the popular branch as they may make treaties and alliances which when made are to be paramount the law of the land. The State Spirit will also be preserved in the Senate as they are to have equal numbers and equal votes. It is to be feared this Body united with the President as on most occasions it is to be presumed they will act in concert will be an overmatch for the popular branch. Had the Senate been merely legislative even proportioned as they are to the States, it wod. have been less exceptionable; and the President with a member from each State as a privy Council to have composed the Executive. There is also a strong objection agt. the appelate jurisdiction over law and fact, independent of a variety of other objections which are and may be raised agt. the Judiciary arrangement and the undefined powers of that department. I own I should have been pleased to see a declaration of rights accompany this constitution as there is so much in the execution of the Government to be provided for by the legislature and that Body possessing too great a portion of Aristocracy. The legislature may and will probably make proper and wise regulations in the Judiciary as in the execution of that branch of power the Citizens of all the States will generally be equally affected. But the reflection that there exists in the constitution a power that may oppress makes the mind uneasy and that oppression may and will result from the appelate power of unsetling facts does to me appear beyond a doubt. To rehearse the Doubts and difficulties that arise in my mind when I reflect on this part of the Judiciary power wod. I am sure to you be unnecessary. It wod. be more troublesome than usefull to recite the variety of objections that some raise some of them of more others of inconsiderable weight. Could I see a change in the Constitution of the Senate and the right of unsetling facts removed from the Court of Appeals I could with much less reluctance yeild my assent to the System. I could wish I own to see some other alterations take place but for the accomplishment of them, I wod. trust to time, and the wisdom and moderation of the legislature rather than impede the puting the new plan in motion, was it in my power, because I well know our desperate situation under the present form of Government. It is at this time very difficult to inform you what is the prevalent opinion among the people. If we are to judge of them at large from their representatives here they must be very much divided and I think the advocates for the new plan rather diminish than increase in number. You will have from the Executive an accot. of the proceedings of the Houses on the report of the Convention. I think they have taken a wise course in delivering it over to the People withot. conveying sentiments of approbation or Disapprobation. As yet nothing of consequence excepting the referring to the People the new Constitution, has been done in the assembly. Tomorow they are to discuss the recommendation of Congress respecting British debts. I think there will be a majority in the Delegates for the repeal of the laws. How it will go down in the Senate I am unable to calculate. You shall be occasionally informed how we go on. With real affection and esteem, I am, Yr. friend & Servt
Jos: Jones.


Title: To James Madison from Edmund Randolph, 23 [ca. 29] October 1787
From: Randolph, Edmund
To: Madison, James

My dear friend
Richmond Oct: 23 [ca. 29]. 1787.
I have omitted to write to you since my return home, from an inability to obtain so accurate a grasp of the Opinions prevailing here, as to justify me in communicating the politics of our legislature.
The first raptures in favor of the constitution were excessive. Every town resounded with applause. The conjectures of my reasons for refusing to sign were extraordinary, and so far malicious, as to suppose, that I was chagrined at not carrying every point in my own way, or that I sought for popularity. These were the effluviæ until the assembly met.
A diversity of opinion appeared immediately on the convening of that body; which gave an evidence of the good fruit from one of the revised laws, by being punctual to the day. Among the heroes of opposition were Mr. Henry, Mr. Wm. Cabell Colo. Bland and Mr. French Strother. A great ferment was kept up, until thursday last, when, contrary to my expectations the debate for calling the convention was conducted with temper, and a vote passed Unanimously for that purpose, freely to discuss and deliberate on the constitution. This is a happy and politick resolution; for I am thoroughly persuaded, that if it had been propounded by the legislature to the people, as we propounded it, the constitution would have been rejected and the spirit of union extinguished.
At present the final event seems uncertain. There are many warm friends for taking the constitution altogether without the alteration of a letter; among these are Colo. Nicholas and Mr. F. Corbin. But I suspect, that the tide is turning. New objections are daily started, and the opinions of Mr. H—y gain ground. He and I have had several animated discourses; but he recedes so far from me, that we must diverge after a progress of half a degree further. An incidental question is allotted for tomorrow; by which it will be known, how the party positively against the constitution stand as to number. A motion was postponed until that day, for repealing the laws against the recovery of british debts. Much of the repugnance to this motion will be founded on the danger of every defendant being hurried sooner or later to the seat of the fœderal government. This is the most vulnerable and odious part of the constitution. I shall therefore conclude, if the acts be repealed, that the majority of the legislature may be said to have overcome the most exceptionable points.
As to the recusants, we have been spoken of illiberally at least. Mr. Mason has declared in assembly that altho’ he is for amendments, he will not quit the union, even if they should not be made. I have thought proper to postpone any explanation of myself, except in private, until Every thing is determined, which may relate to the constitution. I have prepared a letter, and shall send you a copy in a few days. I see the Penna. papers abounding with eulogiums on some, and execrations on others, whose opinions they know not substantially.
Mr. Pendleton, who is here, has expressed himself to this effect: that the constitution is very full of radical faults, & that he would adopt it with a protest as to its imperfections, in order that they may be corrected at a future day.
The bar are generally against it. So are the judges of the general court. So is Wiley Jones of North Carolina.
In short I am persuaded, that there must be strong exertions made to carry it through, and my letter will not be the least conducive among the other supports to its adoption in the end.
Why would you not give me your opinion as to the scheme I proposed in my letter from the Bowling Green. I am now convinced of the impropriety of the Idea, but I wish to open to you without reserve the innermost thoughts of my soul, and was desirous of hearing something from you on this head.
Colo. Mason has said nothing quoad te and you may rest yourself in safety in my hands: for I will certainly repel the smallest insinuation.
You were elected by 126 out of 140. & for the second year by 137 out of 140. So that you see, circumsicision and uncircumcision avail nothing. I sent your appointments on the other day.
The people of this town are still in rage for the constitution and Harvie among the most strenuous. I have inquired about the reports concerning myself, and if popularity had been my object, as some supposed, I should have overshot my mark. Pardon this medley, written in a croud, and be assured of my most affectionate friendship—
E. R.


Title: From James Madison to Archibald Stuart, 30 October 1787
From: Madison, James
To: Stuart, Archibald

Dear Sir
New York Octr. 30. 1787.
I have been this day favored with yours of the 21st. instant & beg you to accept my acknowledgments for it. I am truly sorry to find so many respectable names on your list of adversaries to the federal Constitution. The diversity of opinions on so interesting a subject, among men of equal integrity & discernment, is at once a melancholy proof of the fallibility of the human judgment, and of the imperfect progress yet made in the science of Government. Nothing is more common here, and I presume the case must be the same with you, than to see companies of intelligent people equally divided, and equally earnest, in maintaining on one side that the General Government will overwhelm the State Governments, and on the other that it will be a prey to their encroachments; on the one side that the structure of the Government is too firm and too strong, and on the other that it partakes too much of the weakness & instability of the Governments of the particular States. What is the proper conclusion from all this? That unanimity is not to be expected in any great political question: that the danger is probably exaggerated on each side, when an opposite danger is conceived on the opposite side—that if any Constitution is to be established by deliberation & choice, it must be examined with many allowances, and must be compared not with the theory, which each individual may frame in his own mind, but with the system which it is meant to take the place of, and with any other which there might be a probability of obtaining.
I cannot judge so well as yourself of the propriety of mixing with the adoption of the federal Constitution a Revision of that of the State. If the latter point could be effected without risk or inconveniency to the former, it is no doubt desireable. The practicability of this will depend on the degree of unanimity with which it could be undertaken. I should doubt extremely whether the experiment could safely be made. Might not the blending those two things together unite those who are unfriendly to either, and thus strengthen the opposition you have to contend with? In case the Genl. Government should be established it will perhaps be easy to follow it with an amendment of our own Constitution. The example will have some influence by proving the practicability & safety of such experiments. And if the Convention think fit, they may lay a proper train of themselves for bringing the matter about.
The public mind in this quarter seems not finally settled as yet with regard to the proposed Constitution. The first impression has been every where favorable except in Rh. Island. Nor is there any reason to suspect that the generality of States will not embrace the measure. The character of this State has long been antifederal, & is known that a very powerful party continue so. Penna. is also divided into parties, but it is supposed that a majority will pretty certainly on the right side. With great respect & regard I am Dr Sir Yr. Obdt. & hble. servt.
Js. Madison Jr


Title: Virginia Delegates to Edmund Randolph, 3 November 1787
From: Virginia Delegates
To: Randolph, Edmund

Sir,
New york November 3d. 1787
The Requisition for the present year has already been transmitted to the States by the Secretary of Congress; we, however, now do ourselves the honor to inclose it to your Excellency, together with a Report of the Treasury Board, and a Return of payments by the Several States to the 30th of June, all which we beg the favor of you to lay before the General Assembly, for their more full information upon the Federal Resources.
The report of the Treasury Board was proposed for the adoption of Congress as a Requisition, and the Statements contained in it, form the foundation of the Act which has been agreed to; but it was thought best to reverse the appropriations Suggested by the Board, and by that means call for the amount required upon the new Requisition, in facilities instead of Specie, conceiving that the ability of the States to comply with the demand, would be encreased by the extension of the Latitude of Accommodation. Upon the same Consideration the restrictions which were imposed upon the issues and payment of Indents, in the former Requisitions, are, by a Clause in this, Repealed. The way is now open for evidences of Interest to be issued up to the end of 1786, and it is left to the States to obtain, and pay the balances now due upon their Respective quota’s in such ways as to them Shall seem expedient.
Virginia is greatly in arrear in the Indents which have been called for upon the Several Requisitions from September 1782 inclusive. For discharging these balances we beg leave to submit to the consideration of the Legislature, a mode different from that which has hitherto been pursued. Any observations upon the impolocy of the Systems by which Indents have been made Receiveable upon an equal footing with Specie, in Taxes, we conceive to be Unnecessary, as they must be evident to every one who has in any manner been connected with their Operation; they procure little or no Satisfaction to the public Creditor, while they enormously oppress the Laborious Taxpayer, and are productive of undue emolument to intermediate hands, who are not the objects of public provision, and who would be employed in more useful Occupations did not the public create this Scene of Speculation for them. This being the case, a change of System is necessarily called for, and it only remains to be decided what that change shall be. The first object that presents itself in considering this Subject is, justice to the public Creditors, who have a right to expect their interest in full Specie Value; and could Taxes be collected in specie, commensurate to this demand, it would in our Opinions, be the duty of the Public to collect the money and pay it to the Claimants; this measure is however impracticable, nor is it Material to a decision what other to adopt, to determine whether this impractibility arises from the poverty of the people, the situation of our Commerce, or any other Cause. It is reduced to a Certainty, that in any Operation the Creditor must find the public provision inadequate to his demand, and he must be satisfied to Negotiate his claim at a considerable Loss, or let it lay useless by him—it then behoves the public to make the best provision which the circumstances of the people will admit, and to open the best possible ground of Negotiation, which may be embraced or Neglected by the Creditor at his own option, but should he determine to Negotiate at a loss, it is highly proper that the loss he sustains, should rather be turned to the common relief, than the emolument of the Collectors and a few other Individuals. Upon these Considerations we beg leave to submit to the wisdom of the General Assembly, whether it would not be best to discard the mode of Collecting Indents in Taxes as has hitherto been done, and to lay as great a Tax as the people can reasonably pay in Specie, to be applied in the purchase of the Indents—upon the ground of Such a Tax the great Speculators would be ready to enter into Contracts for Supplying them at Certain prices. In addition to the prospect of Success in this Measure, which must now be evident, we have to observe that the Repeal of the restrictions upon the Issues of Indents will soon throw into the Market great sums of them, and as it is to be presumed that most of the States will Neglect to make proper provision for their Redemption, there must be a considerable fall in their Value.
You will observe Sir, that for discharging our foreign demands, as well as the domestic expences of the Current year, Congress Rely upon a Surplusage in the former Requisitions, Occasioned by many of the Objects for which these Requisitions were made, being turned into the liquidated debt, and other Circumstances which appear in the Report of the Treasury Board; but as this surplusage exists altogether in the balances now remaining due from the States, and the purposes for which it is appropriated are indispensible, it becomes absolutely Necessary that these balances be fully paid. Our last payments in Europe have been effected by a New Loan of one Million of Guilders Negotiated by Mr Adams in Holland, but Congress from motives of Honor and Justice which must present themselves without further explanation have ordered that no farther Loans be Negotiated. It remains therefore with the States to determine whether the Credit and administration of the Union, are to be Supported for another year, or abandoned. The 109,391 64/90ths Dollars appropriated in the hands of the Commissioners of Loans in Holland, is the balance now remaining of the late Negotiation, but it amounts to but a Triffling part of the sum Necessary for foreign purposes.
We also have the Honor to enclose to your Excellency the Ordinance for establishing a Temporary Government in the Western Territory, and providing for its passage into State Governments. A part of this plan depends upon the Accession of Virginia, to which we beg leave to call the attention of the Legislature. The proposed arrangement of the Territory into three States we conceive to be much better than that which was formerly made in Conformity to the Act of Cession. A Division of the Country into many Small States would effectually disappoint the design of Virginia, that the inhabitants be admitted into the Federal Government, upon their becoming so numerous as to have reasonable pretentions to such admission, because it might, upon the whole, be very populous, and yet in no one of the described States, contain as many inhabitants as the smallest of the Original States; in this Situation it could not be expected, they would remain long contented, and the federal Government would be under the Necessity of suffering them to enter into other Alliances, or departing from the Stipulated terms of Admission. The proposed arrangement of the Territory into three States will avoid these difficulties, without any eventual inconvenience, from the Reduction of the Number—indeed, if it is thought Material to the interest of the Southern States, that their Scale be Strengthened by an Accession in this quarter, that object will be better secured by the New, than the old plan, because upon the former there may be an early admission of a State, but upon the latter such an event must be long, or perhaps forever, postponed.
We are happy in being able to present to the View of your Excellency and the Legislature a prospect of an early and considerable reduction of the domestic debt by Sales of Western Territory. Seven Ranges of Townships have been surveyed agreeably to the Ordinance of the 20th of May 1785, containing upwards of one Million of Acres, about one hundred and Twenty thousand Whereof have been sold for some what more than the Average price of one dollar Pr. Acre in public securities. These Ranges extend west from the place of beginning directed in the Ordinance nearly down to Muskingum. But a mode of Sale has lately presented itself which promises a more Rapid progress, while it will exempt the United States from the greatest part of the expence that would attend a strict pursuance of the Ordinance, without Materially departing from it. Companies of Adventurers have come forward with propositions for large Tracts, and a Contract is actually made with Messrs. Sargent and Cutler, in behalf of a considerable Company from the Eastern States, for all the Country between the Seventh Range of Townships, and Sciota, from the Ohio North, as far as a due West line to be extended from the Northern boundary of the Tenth Township—the whole of this tract is supposed to contain about five Millions of Acres. The terms are, that the United States, shall at the public expence, Survey & mark the external boundaries, and ascertain the Contents of the Tract—the Company to lay it out, at their own expence, into Townships and Sections, agreeably to the Ordinance, subject to the reserves therein described, except that one of the Sections for future Sale shall be granted forever for the purposes of Religion, and that two Complete Townships shall be granted for ever for the purposes of an University. All other Lands within the Tract, to be paid for, without any abatement whatever for bad Land, at the price of two thirds of a dollar per Acre in public Securities, excluding interest—half a million of dollars to be paid upon closing the Contract, and possession taken so far as that payment will cover; and afterwards payment and Occupancy to go on, pari passu, at certain periods, under Certain Stipulations of reciprocal assureance. Army Rights for Military bounties are made Receivable in payment of the purchase money, in the proportion of one Seventh part, but as Lands are Set apart and to be Surveyed, for Satisfying these Bounties, more to the advantage of the Claimants, it is not likely that many of these Rights will be rendered in discharge of this debt.
Another offer is made by Judge Symmes and his Associates from New-Jersey, for about two and an half Millions between the little and great Miami’s, upon the same term[s]. Congress have Authorised the Treasury Board to close with this proposition, but it is not yet compleated; upon these two Contracts being carried into full effect they will take up, as may be seen by the Statement inclosed, upwards of three Millions and an half of dollars, even upon a supposition that the full proportion receiveable in Bounty Rights, be actually rendered. Two other propositions have been made, whereupon Congress have given the Treasury Board a general Authority to sell by Contract; provided that no tract so disposed of shall contain less than one Million of Acres, making the Terms of Sargent and Cutlers purchase the ground, with deviations as to the grants for Religion, and an University, unless the Contract be for an equal quantity. This mode of Sale is calculated to relieve the United States of much expence, and present Appearances are, that our people will soon feel the domestic debt considerably lightened, by it.
This great fund for the extinguishment of the National debt, has lately received a probable augmentation, by a Cession from South Carolina of a Tract that will, it is supposed, be eventually within the limits of that State, containing about half a Million of Acres on the Missisippi, upon running the lines lately stipulated in the adjustment of her disputes with Georgia.
The Requisitions upon North Carolina and Georgia for liberal Cessions of Territory have Recently been repeated by Congress in terms so pressing that we hope these States will not persevere in withholding those Acts of Justice.
In pursuance of our instructions we have called the attention of Congress to the Subject of the Barbary piracies, and a measure for forming a Confederacy with some of the European powers, who may be disposed to Act against them, has been contemplated; but the desperate prospect of the United States being enabled to comply with their Stipulations in such a Confederacy, has obliged Congress to decline any Overtures towards this desirable object. We cannot however forbear to express our Regret, that a measure which appears so practicable, which would be so honorable to the Union, and in which the States are so materially interested, should be Neglected because the Necessary Contributions for its Support cannot be relied upon.
The Subject of the great accounts of the Union has this year received its accustomed Revision, and is considerably improved. We have the honor to inclose to your Excellency an Ordinance of the 7th of May last for the Completion of this Business, and beg the favor of you to lay it before the General Assembly. The reduced State of Congress in the latter part of the year has prevented the election of the three Superior Commissioners, but as the Subordinate parts of the plan is now in Operation in the districts, the elections may be made by the New Congress in time for every useful purpose.
We beg leave to call the attention of the Legislature to the Great Balance which stands against the State in the Treasury Books, on account of the old paper emissions; this Balance is nearly twenty six Millions of dollars. It is for the Legislature to determine upon the most eligible mode of discharging it, but could funds be provided for obtaining it by purchase we apprehend it could be got at a much lower rate, than that at which, upon a final settlement of the Accounts, it will be adjusted. Large sums of this money are in the hands of Individuals in the Eastern States, who would doubtless be disposed to sell; we, however have no principles on which to hazard an Opinion upon the demands that would be made, by the holders, for it.
In pursuance of the enclosed Resolution of the 21st. of April last a Contract has been made for a Coinage of Copper, from which some aid will result to the resources of the United States—and we beg leave to call the attention of the Legislature to the Necessity of passing Laws for prevention of Counterfeits. We have the honor to be, with the greatest re[gard?] for your Excellency & the Legislature Your Excellencies Most Obt. Ser[vts.]
Willm. GraysonJs. Madison Junr.Ed. CarringtonHenry Lee


Title: To James Madison from George Washington, 5 November 1787
From: Washington, George
To: Madison, James

My dear Sir,
Mount Vernon Novr. 5th: 1787.
Your favor of the 18th. Ulto. came duly to hand. As no subject is more interesting, and seems so much to engross the attention of every one as the proposed Constitution, I shall, (tho’ it is probable your communications from Richmond are regular and full with respect to this, and other matters, which employ the consideration of the Assembly) give you the extract of a letter from Doctr Stuart, which follows—
“Yesterday (the 26th. of Octr.) according to appointment, the calling of a Convention of the people was discussed. Though no one doubted a pretty general unanimity on this question ultimately, yet, it was feared from the avowed opposition of Mr. Henry and Mr. Harrison, that an attempt would be made, to do it in a manner that would convey to the people an unfavourable impression of the opinion of the House, with respect to the Constitution: And this was accordingly attempted. It was however soon baffled. The motion was to this effect; that a Convention should be called to adopt—reject—or amend—the proposed Constitution. As this conveyed an idea that the House conceived an amendment necessary, it was rejected as improper. It now stands recommended to them, on (I think) unexceptionable ground, for ‘their full and free consideration.’ My collegue arrived here on the evening before this question was taken up: I am apt to think that the opponants to the Constitution were much disappointed in their expectations of support from him, as he not only declared himself in the fullest manner for a Convention, but also, that notwithstanding his objections, so federal was he, that he would adopt it, if nothing better could be obtained. The time at which the Convention is to meet, is fixed to the first of June next. The variety of sentiments on this subject was almost infinite; neither friends or foes agreeing in any one period. There is to be no exclusion of persons on acct. of their Offices.[”]
Notwithstanding this decision the accounts of the prevailing sentiments without, especially on James River and Westwardly, are various; nothing decisive, I believe, can be drawn. As far as I can form an opinion however, from different persons, it should seem as if Men judged of others, by their own affection, or disaffection to the proposed government. In the Northern Neck the sentiment I believe, is very generally for it. I think it will be found such thro the State.
The Doctor further adds—“The subject of British debts was taken up the other day when Mr. Henry, reflected in a very warm declamatory manner, on the circular letter of Congress, on that subject. It is a great and important matter and I hope will be determined as it should be notwithstanding his opposition.”
So far as the sentiments of Maryland, with respect to the proposed Constitution, have come to my knowledge, they are strongly in favor of it; but as this is the day on which the Assembly of that state ought to meet, I will say nothing in anticipation of the opinion of it. Mr. Carroll of Carrolton, and Mr. Thos. Johnson, are declared friends to it. With sincere regard and Affecte I am, My dear Sir Yr. sincere frd. & Obedt Ser
Go: Washington


Title: From James Madison to Philip Mazzei, 5 November 1787
From: Madison, James
To: Mazzei, Philip

5 November 1787. Acknowledged in Mazzei to JM, 21 Dec. 1787. Reports on the Dohrman affair and comments on Mazzei’s book.


Title: From James Madison to Ambrose Madison, 8 November 1787
From: Madison, James
To: Madison, Ambrose

Dear brother
New York Novr. 8th. 1787.
Having mislaid your last favor, I can not acknowledge it by reference to its date. It contained two requests, the one relating to Mr. House’s rule of calculating the weight of the Tobacco; the other to my being a candidate in Orange for the Convention. In answer to the first point I inclose the rule exemplified. If this should not suffice, I will send you a calculation in detail for the whole account. In answer to the second point, I am to observe that it was not my wish to have followed the Act of the General Convention into the Convention of the State; supposing that it would be as well that the final decision thereon should proceed from men who had no hand in preparing and proposing it. As I find however that in all the States the members of the Genl. Convention are becoming members of the State Conventions, as I have been applied to on the subject by sundry very respectable friends, as I have reason to believe that many objections in Virginia proceed from a misconception of the plan, or of the causes which produced the objectionable parts of it; and as my attendance at Philadelphia, may enable me to contribute some explanations and informations which may be of use, I shall not decline the representation of the County if I should be honoured with its appointment. You may let this be known in such way as my father & yourself may judge best. I shall be glad to hear from [you] on the subject, and to know what competition there will probably be and by whom.
As far as present appearances denote, the N. England States R. Island excepted, will all adopt the new Constitution. N. Jersey certainly will. So will Penna. according to the best opinions, by a very decided majority. I have favorable information also from Maryland; though it is not improbable that the opposition likely to be made in Virginia will have some effect on that side, as well as on the side of N. Carolina, which in general has been said to be well disposed. Like information has been recd. from the two more Southern States; but it is too early to pronounce on their disposition. This State (N. York) is much divided. The party in power, are unwilling to surrender any portion of it. The other party is composed of the more respectable citizens, and is warmly attached to the proposed Constitution. Whatever may be the sense of the Majority the State will scarcely have a will of its own, if New England on one side and N. Jersey & Pena. on the other come heartily into the measure.
A French packet arrived a few days ago; but brings no decisive information concerning the Dutch. It continues to be uncertain what their fate is to be. A war between Russia & Turkey is said to have been declared by the latter. A great change has taken place in the French Ministry. The Parliament lately banished, has got back to Paris, and it is expected that the new taxes against which they remonstrated, will not be enforced. Provincial assemblies are at length established throughout the Kingdom. The Marquis de la Fayette is a leading member of one of them. The Count de Moustier is appointed Minister to the U. States in the place of the Chevalier de la Luzerne, and may soon be expected here.
I have now given you all the news foreign & domestic, and have only to add my dutiful regards to my father & Mother, and to request that I may be properly remembered to all others. Yrs. affectly.
Js. Madison Jr.
N.B. The Almanack & other papers herewith enclosed are for my father.


Title: To James Madison from Archibald Stuart, 9 November 1787
From: Stuart, Archibald
To: Madison, James

Dr Sir
Richmond Novr. 9th. 1787
Yrs of the 30th. Octr. came to hand yesterday & has afforded me infinite satisfaction to hear that the probability is that most of the Northern States will adopt the fœderal Govt. I have been for some time uncommonly Anxious on this subject lest the weakness & inefficacy of the State Governments should become so notorious & so disgusting to the people as to drive them into concessions of liberty much beyond that point which is actually necessary for Good Government. Should it however fail in the first instance I hope it will prove a Rock of Salvation on which we may rest in our career to that fatal extreme.
The Paper inclosed contained a piece signed Publius with which I am extremely pleased, from his introduction I have the highest expectations from him. If it would not impose too great a task upon you I would request that his subsequent papers may be sent to me, the Nos. written by an American Citizen have had good effects & with some Other pieces of Merit have been printed in a small pamphlet for the information of the people.
Inclosed are some Resolutions which were Occasioned by three or four petitions for paper money from the southern Counties, they were drawn by Mason & supported in a Masterly Manner, Upon many Other Occasions however Our friend is not what he has been.
Yesterday the Doctrine of installments Came on were said to be the Child of Necessity & a price for a Speedy & uniform administration of Justice. Henry, Nichs. Ronald & Thruston Pro Mason, Corbin, Bushd: Washington Turberville & yr. H Sevt Con. Henry movd the Committee should rise as time did not allow him to reply & some other Gent. who he said would favor us with their sentiments. We accordingly adjourned the debate for two Days, what will be the Result, God knows. Henry is loud on the distresses of the People & makes us tremble with the Apprehensions of a Rebellion if they are driven to dispair. He has also in a Decided tone opposed the payment of British Debts charged the Congress with neglecting the Interests of this State & Asserts that their Circular letter is sophistical & ought not to be regarded. He sais if we do our best to comply we or some other State shall fail in some tittle & that will be a pretext for the british to continue their Open Violation of it that if we comply at all we must fulfill Lord Carmarthens requisitions on that subject, Stated in a conversation with Mr Adams. He ask why we should go before the british in this Business, is it because they are more honest? or wear a Royal diadem &c.
Some of our young Country men who have come forward have done them selves & their country much honor. They speak & think for them selves but cannot give impulse to the Mass of our body.
On the subject of Installments I feel like a man Whose Character cannot be worsted, it will the sooner fill up the Measure of inequity & convince the people of the Necessity of a Change of Govt & Perhaps bring some good out of the Evil.
We have done nothing finally of any consequence, you shall hear of it when it happens. From yr Most Obt H Sevt
Archd Stuart.


Title: To James Madison from John Dawson, [ca. 10 November] 1787
From: Dawson, John
To: Madison, James

[ca. 10 November 1787]
Accept my thanks, my dear Sir, for your two favours of the 21st. and 28th. of the last month, which, with the enclosures, came to hand in due time.
On the receipt of a letter from you, some time since, I calld the attention of the Legislature to the Act of the last session, which is the subject of Mr. Vanburkels complaint. That it is a violation, tho not an intended one, appears to be the general opinion. A committee was appointed, to prepare and bring in “a Bill to amend and reduce into one Act, the several Acts imposing duties on imported articles.” Whether the indulgence will be extended to the Dutch, or withdrawn from the French is uncertain. I rather, however, apprehend that it will be extended. The committee have not yet reported the bill, but will in a day or two. The business of reducing all the acts into one was more difficult, and took up more time than was apprehended.
The subject of installments has been very warmly agitated—from what appeard in the house a day or two ago, when the business was brought forward, I am convinced that all internal debts will be install’d by three annual payments, provided the Circuit Courts can be establishd. To carry the latter many will agree to the former and vice versa. What will be the fate of British debts is very uncertain—if the assembly agree to pay them it will not be in less time than seven years, nor until the posts to the West are evacuated.
On a petition from Frdksburg for the repeal of the Port-bill we went into a Committee of the whole—and after a full discussion on the subject, after Mr. Mason had supported the petition and reprobated the authors of this establishment, in his satiric turn; after Mr. Henry had opposed the petition, and in a very able manner supported the principles of the bill, the committee divided, when only about 15 appeard in favour of the petition.
A variety of petitions have been presended complaining of that impolitic and unjust Law “imposing new Taxes[”]—whether it will be repeald or no is uncertain; if not repeald it will be amended. Mr. Henry has introduced some resolutions, which have been agreed to in committee, to prohibit entirely the importation of rum, brandy, cordage, and many other articles.
You have heard I presume that Colo Mathews and Mr. Selden were voted out of, and Colo Heth and Majr. Eggleston into the council.
From the information we have receivd here, there is very little doubt, but the States South of this will adopt the new constitution. What will be done here is very uncertain. The opponents to it are many, able, and busy. Converts are daily made. Enclosd you will receive the resolutions of the assembly, and will, with me agree, I think, that they are exceedingly proper. By opening the door wide, it is probable all the eminent characters among us will be in convention. By fixing the meeting of the convention to so late a day we shall be able to act on the determinations of the other states, and to determine ourselves as circumstances may point out. Had the convention met at an early day, and the question have been, will you take this constitution, as offerd? I am persuaded a majority woud have said No. I also am of opinion there can be no time so unfavourable for this state to offer amendments as the present. The other states are adopting the Constitution with avidity, and woud pay little attention to any proposd amendment. But if the Goverment is a bad one it will press hard upon other states, and make them less ave[r]se to amend it. With much respect and esteem I am dear sir, Yr. Sin: Friend & hm: Sert
J Dawson