Title: To James Madison from George Muter, 20 February 1787
From: Muter, George
To: Madison, James

Sir
Kentucky, Mercer County. Feby. 20th. 1787
I beg leave to return you my thanks, for your favour of the 7th. of January, which I received a few days ago.
Our Convention was sitting when the Act of last Session arrived. The moment the Convention received information of the act’s being come to hand, it was directed to be read; and on considering it’s contents, it was the opinion of the members generally, that the Convention by the passing of the act, was dissolved. I was doubtfull then, that that opinion was too hastily adopted, & that a dissolution of the Convention was not intended; in which opinion, since I received your letter, I am now satisfied I was right. I have showed your letter to several of the members; they are of the same opinion with me, but we can see no means of the Convention’s being able to act again during it’s continuance, or even of being called, let the meeting be ever so proper or necessary. A very considerable delay, must now take place, in the bussiness of separation; whether that will be attended with good, or bad consequences, I am at present unable to determine. Those of the people that were against a separation, exult exceedingly; they think they have gained a victory & plume themselves upon it, highly indeed. The friends to a separation, are rather displeased, they think the petition signed by about 70. obscure persons, had more influence, than it ought to have had; and they fear, disagreeable consequences may, arise from the delay. ’Tis remarkable, that the petition was drawn by a Dr. Brooke, who was a member of the first Convention, & moved that Kentucky should immediatly declare itself independant; and that Taylor who carried it in, from some expressions that I heard drop from him, I think there is reason to beleive, would wish for an unconditional separation. I am however of opinion, that the terms held out by the Act of separation will be accepted of, in spite of every thing that can be done to the contrary; & I am certain, that the Convention, would have voted the terms reasonable, in a few hours after the time they received the Act.
I am perfectly satisfied of the propriety of the 7th. Art: your reasonings have convinced me my doubts (for it went no farther with me) were wrong. I find too, that many others with whom I have conversed on that subject since I received your letter, agree with me in opinion.
There has, I firmly beleive, a great change taken place in the minds of the people since the last election; but, it is very different from what I have reason to beleive, it was represented to be in Richmond; I have not a doubt, that a great number of people who were against a seperation at the time of the election, are now for it, and I have not heard of a single person, who was inclined for a seperation then, having changed his mind.
Our people here are greatly alarmed at the prospect of the navigation of the Mississippi being given up. And I have not mett with one man, who would be willing to give the navigation up, for ever so short a time, on any terms whatever. For my own part, although I wish for the right of the navigation’s being secured to the Citizens of the United States, yit I could wish to see the people of the western country in general, & the people of Kentucky in particular, make, but a very sparing use of it. I am satisfied, foreign commerce can never be beneficial in any considerable degree, to a people so far removed from the sea; and that it must be ruinous, if the people are engaged in raising a rough materail, & that a bulky one & of little value too, to be improved by foreigners. This country, in my opinion, must be principally employed in manufacturing their own necessarys, or for ever be a poor one. If after supplying themselves with all their coarse goods they might stand in need of, the people could furnish some article of light carriage & high value, such as silk, to exchange for such fine goods as they wished to have & could not conveniently make, it might be well enough; but to go farther wou’d be acting contrary to their true interest; & I am inclined to think, contrary to the intention of Providence, who seems to have formed this country to live within itself—by furnishing it, with all the absolute necessarys of life, in such plenty, as to require only the industry of the people, to procure them in the greatest abundance.
The situation of the people of this district, from the war with the Indians, is, really distressing. The expeditions of last fall, tho’ carried on at a vast expence, seem not to have been attended, with one single good consequence: on the contrary, there is reason to beleive, the Indians have rather gained a greater degree of confidence than they before possessed, & have been more irritated against us than they were. They seem now to be pushing us on every side; mischief has been done lately, on the frontiers of almost every County in the district, and partys have even ventured to committ their depredations, within about 15 miles of Danville; & one party, supposed to consist of about twenty, was seen last week, not much over 15 miles from Danville, & within about six or seven miles of Harrodsburgh. A great many poor people have already been forced to remove from their habitations, & it is not to be doubted, but that many more will be forced to follow their example. There seems to be no security at present, but in the very thickest settled parts of the Country, and how long there may be safety, even there, it is impossible to determine. The people however, do not seem dismayed; they keep up their spirits still, and they seem generally to be of opinion, that the strength of the Country, is fully sufficient for it’s defence, could it only be properly exerted. At the same time, they think Congress ought to make some exertions in their favour; but they have little hopes of any good arising to them, at least this spring & perhaps summer, either from the troops resolved to be raised by Congress for the defence of the western country, or from any other exertion by Congress in their favour whatever.
The situation of affairs in Massachusets seems to be distressing indeed. And it is, I think, to be feared, that the example, may be productive of mischief in some of the other states. Such a state of affairs is truely deplorable, more particularly as there is reason to suspect that British emmissarys are busying themselves on the occasion. How far the mischief may extend it is impossible to foresee; but, I would fain hope, it will produce an inclination in the minds of all men, to use every endeavour, to bring about such an amendment in the federal union as has, now, become absolutely necessary. Virginia has done herself honour in the choice of her deputies. I hope her example will be followed by the other states. And I pray, that the exertions of the deputies from the states of the Union, at their meeting, to amend the constitution, & thereby to secure to the people, the blessings, that may be reasonably expected from the revolution, may be blessed with the fullest success. I am with great respect Sir Your most obed & hle servt.
George Muter


Title: Notes on Debates, 20 February 1787
From: Madison, James
To:

Teusday 20. Feby. [1787]
Nothing of consequence done


Title: To James Madison from John Campbell, 21 February 1787
From: Campbell, John
To: Madison, James

Sir,
Pittsburgh Februy. 21st. 1787.
On my way to this place I met a Man from the Settlement on Cumberland River in North Carolina who had just come in by the way of Kentuckey. He informs that the minds of all the Western People are agitated on Account of the proposed cession of the Mississippi Navigation to Spain. Every person talks of it with i[n]d[i]gnation and reprobates it as a Measure of the greatest Injustice and Despotism declaring that if it takes place they will look upon themselves relieved from all Federal Obligations and fully at Liberty to exact alliances & Connections wherever they find them and that the British Officers at Detroit have already been tampering with them. I am apprehensive that these matters will hasten the Seperation of the District of Kentuckey prematurely from the Other part of the State[—]the Inhabitants of North Carolina to the Westward of Cumberland Mountain being desirous to join the People of Kentuckey in forming one State an event desirable in my Opinion both to the Old and the New provided we parted in Friendship which I sincerely wish to be the Case happen when it may, but which does not promise fair from the present appearance.
I inclose you last Weeks Gazette wherin you will see the resolves of the Patriotick Convention of Washington County. This Town has also framed a Petition to the Assembly respecting the Navigation of the Mississippi which is now out signing and have also Appointed a Committee of Correspondence to receive and communicate Intelligence from and to all places to the Westward immediatly Interested.
Before I conclude I must not omit mentioning what appears to me singular—every Individual with whom I converse on the Subject is fully sensible of the pernicious tendency the measure of Ceding or forbearing the Use of the River will have in reducing the Value of the Western Lands belonging to the United States and whenever they Assign any Reason that would induce Congress to such a Measure impute it to the Spirit of Speculation in some Aristocratic Junto who wish to procure Vast Landed property in that Country for little Value to the great injury of the Publick.
I have no other News to communicate except that the Indians still continue their Depredations in Kentuckey having killed some People lately in Jefferson County. I shall set out thither shortly and if any thing worth communicating occurs I will take the first Opportunity of acquainting you of it.

You enquired once of me respecting some Pecaan Nuts. I could not promise to procure you any from the Uncertainty of Obtaining them but by Accident I got at this place a Dozen of last years Growth which I send you by the Bearer hereof Mr. [Burton?] a Relation of Mr. Patton’s the Vendue Master in Philada. who has promised me to send them to you as soon as he reaches his home. I am Sir Your Huml. Servant
John Campbell


Title: To James Madison from James Craik, 21 February 1787
From: Craik, James
To: Madison, James

Dr Sir
Alexanda. February 21th 1787
Presuming on my former acquaintance with you I take the liberty to trouble you on a subject now before Congress. I wrote Colo. Benjamin Walker some time last summer respecting the settlement of my Account with the Publick for my services during the late War he being appointed by Congress to adjust the Accounts of the Hospital Department. Some time in October I received a letter from the Colo. on the subject informing me that he could not settle my Account as I had stated it to him because I had charged four Dollars pr. day for my pay as Assistant Deputy Director from the sixth of February one thousand seven hundred & seventy Eight, whereas it was conceived that under the Resolve of Congress of the 16th. Of January 1782, which directs “that in the settlement of the Account of such officers of the Hospital Department as are intitled to Depreciation the establishment of Pay made on the 8th. of April 1777. be considered as specie”—I was not intitled to more then three dollars pr. Day as that was the establishment of the 8th. of April 1777. Doctor Ledgard & the heirs of Berrian who were simular circumstanced with myself were of opinion, that as Congress had granted us an additional Dollar pr. day in consequence of representation that our pay was too low, they never intended to deprive us of that additional allowance by the Resolve of the 16th. of January 1782; they therefore made an application to Congress some time ago on this subject which was not determined on when I last heard from New York. As I was not informed of the objection before Doctor Ledgard & the heirs of Berrian handed in their application I had not an opportunity of making myself a party to it tho’ the hardship of the dedu[c]tion from my pay struck me as forcibly as it could have done them. As my case will be involved in the determination of that of Doctors Ledgard & Berrian I have postponed the final settlement of my Account untill I know the result of their memorial. The great distance of my residence from New York makes me anxious to have a settlement as soon as possible. I have therefore taken the Liberty to request your notice in bringing the affair to a determination as soon as convenient to Congress, at the same time I must beg leave to trouble you to receive the Certificates for the Ballance due me as soon as my account shall be settled and if a safe opportunity should offer to Alexanda. to transmit them to me, which will infinitely oblige Your very humble servant.
Jas. Craik
I have wrote to Colo. Walker to pay the Ballance into your hands as soon as the Account is settled.


Title: To James Madison from James Wilkinson, 22 February 1787
From: Wilkinson, James
To: Madison, James

Sir
Kentucky 22nd. Feby. 1787
Motives of regard, to the general Interests of the United States, prompt this Address; your Virtues as a Man, and your Integrity & descernment as a Politician, subject you to the intrusion: A Republican in every impulse of the Senses, I deal not in apologies.
The inclosed papers came to my Hands a few days Since; under the delusion of names, the applicants have mistaken the Authority of the public Body, as well as the influence of the private Man, they have addressed: Judge Simms late a Member of Congress, is impressed with the Idea, that a knowledge of the Genius & disposition of these People, may be profitable to Congress in the organization of the proposed Colonial Government; With this View Sir, the public address is submited to you, the Letter accompanies it, to explain the manner, in which it came into my possession.
I will add that the French & Indians are closely connected, by long intercourse, habits, Manners, language, & by Blood. The fighting Men of post Vincent, who stile themselves French Men, may amount to 300—insensible of every Idea of agriculture, they look to a most luxuriant Soil, merely for a miserable pittance of Indian Corn, which is planted awkardly & suffered to make its way to maturity. The avocations of the Men are hunting, & carrying in perogues, by the Wabash, Miami, & Lake Erie; to & from Detroit, by which communication an extensive Trade has been Supported, Since the Peace, the Impediments being inconsiderable, & the Portage only Nine Miles. It will be difficult to bring Such Subjects to submit to Taxation, & if they are not, in the commencement of the Government, treated with great lenity, the Country will Soon be depopulated. Your Superior Sagacity will Suggest, the proper Measures. I wish Congress to reflect that free Men submit very ungraciously, to Taxes imposed by any foreign power, and that Colonies have revolted, from this Cause. With due respect I am Sir Your Most Ob Servant
James Wilkinson


Title: From James Madison to James Monroe, 25 February 1787
From: Madison, James
To: Monroe, James

Dear Sir
N. York Feby. 25. 1787.
I have received your favor of the 5th. inst. and have attended to the several objects suggested in it. Mordecai having given up all his effects to the Assignees can do nothing for his creditors. He tells me that a dividend will certainly be made in April & not before, and that he shall pay about 15/. in the pound. I have applied also to Crowley, and having little confidence in my own judgment of Cabinet workmanship, got the favor of Grayson & Bingham to accompany me in looking at the furniture prepared for you. They were both of opinion that there was no ground for compelling him to dissolve the contract, and he seemed little disposed to do it voluntarily. The aspect of the furniture does not I own entirely please my eye, but he says the taste of it is conformable to instructions, and no particular defect appears in the workmanship. It is to be considered too that Mahogony is one of the few things which appears worst when New. I have been the rather determined to take the things as it was easy to perceive that waving the risk of a suit, the town would have been filled with complaints agst. you. Having adopted this plan it will be expedient for you to send me without delay the prices settled for the work. Miss Cortwright has no memorandum of them, and without them I shall be at the mercy of Crowley himself. Your instructions as to the bottoming of the chairs and forwarding the whole to Virginia shall be duly attended to, as well as any others which you may give relative to this or any other matter.
I have already mentioned to you Mazzeis affair, and my anxiety to know what you have done and think ought to be done in it. Dorman is still here and it may be of consequence to take the necessary measures before he goes away which will probably be ere long.
We hear nothing very interesting of late from Massts. Rewards are offered for Shays & the other leaders of the mutiny by Govr. Bowdoin, and in consequence of intimations that they were directing their course & incendiary views to this State, by Governor Lincoln.
Congs: have at length passed a Resolution in favor of the Convention. The difficulties were in some measure got over by an instruction from the Legislature of N. Y. to its delegates to move for such an interposition. N York of course will appt. deputies, and there is reason to expect that Massts. and perhaps Connecticut also will appoint. Yrs. affety,
Js. Madison Jr


Title: Virginia Delegates to Edmund Randolph, 26 February 1787
From: Virginia Delegates
To: Randolph, Edmund

Sir
N York. 26th. Feby. 1787.
We are sorry to inform you, that we have inquired at the board of treasury respecting the indents of interest necessary for the State under the requisition of the last year, & that the Commrs. have informed us that from the uncertainty of the productiveness of the funds appropriated by the legislature as a compliance, they were doubtful whether they could with propriety issue them at all, but that at any rate they could not be ready in a month or six weeks from this time; so that there seems to be but little hopes that they can be thrown into circulation during the collection of the taxes.
A Mr. Huff from Winchester has farmed the exclusive priviledge of transporting the Mail from Alexandria to Pittsburgh for seven years and from Winchester to Staunton. On supposition that the same person would also contract for the road from Richmond to Staunton we applied to Congress for a resolution to impower the Post Mr. Genl. to farm the transportation of the Mail on this rout for the same period, which has been obtained.
The Secretary of Congress has informed us he has forwarded the resolution of Congress recommending the Convention of the States on the Second Munday in May next at the City of Philada. We have the honor to be with the highest respect Yr. Excys. Most Obedt. & Very hmble servts.
Willm. Grayson.
James Maddisson.


Title: Edmund Randolph to Virginia Delegates, 4 March 1787
From: Randolph, Edmund
To: Virginia Delegates

4 March 1787, Richmond. Acknowledged in Virginia Delegates to Randolph, 19 March 1787. Enclosed papers relating to George Rogers Clark’s conduct at Vincennes (Randolph to JM, 1 Mar. 1787).


Title: Virginia Delegates to Edmund Randolph, 5 March 1787
From: Virginia Delegates
To: Randolph, Edmund

Sir.
N. York March 5th. 1787.
We have the honor of inclosing a copy of M. Van Berkel’s note to Congress respecting an act of the legislature of the State of Virginia, which he has represented to be contrary to the Treaty of amity & commerce between the United Netherlands & the United States of America. This note is referred to the Secy. for foreign affairs to report witht. their having yet giv’n any opinion on the subject.
The affair of the Missisippi still remains in the same critical situation in which it was left the last year; & their having been sevl. changes in the delegations, it is not known whether those States who favored it’s preservation the last Congress will still adhere to the same sentiments. It appears that only three States have expressly instructed their delegates as yet on this subject. We have the honor to be with the highest respect yr. Excys. Most Obedt. & Very hmble Servts
Willm. Grayson.
Js. Madison Jr


Title: Rufus King to William Grayson and Madison, 11 March 1787
From: King, Rufus
To: Grayson, William,Madison, James

Sunday Morng. 11. Mar. 1787
Extra[c]t of a Letter from a Gentleman in Boston of the 4th. March 1787. to R King—
“—— has come back from Virginia with News that the Commissioners on the part of New York alarmed the Virginia Delegates, with an account that the Commissioners on the part of Massachusetts were for a monarchy; & that those Delegates wrote their Legislature of it, who shut their Galaries and made a most serious Business of the Matter. Pray let me know by the next Post, what you hear of this, and what has been said.”
The Commissioners alluded to, are those who settled the late Territorial controversy between Massachusetts & New York.
Mr. King presents his compliments to Col. Grayson & Mr. Madison, and for the Satisfaction of his friend, who wrote the Letter, from which the above is an Extract, begs to be informed whether they have any Knowledge of a Letter written by the Delegates of Virginia or any of them, containing the information suggested in the Extract, or of any Proceedings of the Virginia Legislature of the nature alledged.
Mr. K. intreats Col. Grayson and Mr. Madison to have the Goodness to excuse the Freedom of this note, and hopes that they will be assured that nothing wd. have authorised this Enquiry except the anxiety of a worthy Gentleman rendered uneasy by the foregoing charge.


Title: From James Madison to Edmund Randolph, 11 March 1787
From: Madison, James
To: Randolph, Edmund

My dear friend
N. York March 11th. 1787
The Governor of this State is just returned from his trip to the upper parts of it. He found every thing quiet in the place to which suspicions & reports carried him. He says also as I am told that Lincoln has restored a calm in that part of Massts. which borders on N. Y. as he had before done in the other disaffected parts. Notwithstanding these favorable accounts there is reason to apprehend that every thing is not yet right in Massts. and that the discontents are rather silenced than subdued. The measures taken by the Legislature of that state prove that such is their view of the matter. They have disfranchized a considerable proportion of the disaffected voters, have voted a military force for the purpose of maintaining the tranquility of the Commonwlth, and their Delegates in pursuance of instructions have within a few days put on the Journals of Congs. a representation including an assertion of right to federal support in case of necessity.
The appointments for the Convention are still going on. Georgia has appointed her delegates to Congs. her representatives in that body also. The Gentlemen from that State here at present are Col. Few, and Majr. Pierce formerly aid to Genl. Green. I am told just now that S. C. has appointed the two Rutledges and Majr. Butler. Col Hamilton, with a Mr. Yates and a Mr. Lansing are appointed by N. York. The two latter are supposed to lean too much towards State considerations to be good members of an Assembly which will only be useful in proportion to its superiority to partial views & interests. Massts. has also appointed. Messrs. Ghorum, Dana, King, Gerry & Strong compose her deputation. The Resolution under which they are appointed restrains them from acceding to any departure from the principle of the 5th. article of Confederation. It is conjectured that this fetter which originated with their Senate, will be knocked off. Its being introduced at all denotes a very different spirit in that quarter from what some had been led to expect. Connecticut it is now generally believed will come into the measure.

Nothing has been yet done in the principal business before Congress, and I fear the number of States will not increase so far as to be competent to it. The Negociations with Spain are carried on if they go on at all entirely behind the curtain. The business has been put into such a form that it rests wholly with Jay how far he will proceed with Guardoqui and how far he will communicate with Congress. The instructed States are hence under some embarrasment. They can not demand information of right. They are unwilling by asking it of favour to risk a refusal and they cannot resort to the present thin Congs. with any hope of success. Should Congs. become pretty full, and Pennsylvania follow N. C. Virga. & N. Jersey, in giving instructions, the case may be altered. Adieu.
Js. M.
We have just agreed that the delegates here shall in future write individually and in rotation to the Executive. You will please to consider this which I had written before the rule was fixed as a private letter, in the light of a public one so far as it may deserve communication to the Board, not however depositing it among their public papers.


Title: Notes on Debates, 13 March 1787
From: Madison, James
To:

Nothing noted till
Teusday March 13. [1787]
Col. Grayson & Mr. Clarke having lately moved to have the military stores at Springfield in Massachusetts removed to some place of greater security, the motion was referred to the Secretary at War, who this day reported agst. the same as his report will shew. No opposition was made to the report, and it seemed to be the general sense of Congs. that his reasons were satisfactory. The Movers of the proposition however might suppose the thinness of Congs. (8 States only being present) to bar any hope of successful opposition.
Memor[an]dum. Called with Bingham to day on Mr. Guardoqui, and had a long conversation touching the Western Country—the Navigation of the Mississpi—and commerce; as these objects relate to Spain & the U. S. Mr. B. opened the conversation with intimating that there was reason [to] believe the Western people were exceedingly alarmed at the idea of the projected Treaty which was to shut up the Missippi and were forming committees of correspondence &c. for uniting their councils & interests. Mr. Guar. with some perturbation replied that as a friend to the U. S. he was sorry for it for they mistook their interest; but that as the Minister of Spain, he had no reason to be so. The result of what fell in the course of the conversation from Js M. & Mr. B. was, that it was the interest of the two nations to live in harmony.
That if Congress were disposed to treat with Spain on the ground of a Cession of the Missippi, it would be out of their power to enforce the treaty—that an attempt would be the means of populating the western Country with additional rapidity—that the British had their eye upon that field, would countenance the separation of the Western from the Eastern part of N. A; promote the settlement of it, and hereafter be able to turn the force springing up in that quarter agst. Spanish America, in cooperation with their naval armaments—that Spain offered nothing in fact to the U. S. in the commercial scale which she did not grant to all other nations from motives of interest.
Mr. Guardoqui would not listen to the idea of a right to the navigation of Mississpi by the U. S. contending that the possession of the two banks at the mouth shut the door agst. any such pretension. Spain never would give up this point. He lamented that he had been here so long without effecting any thing: and foresaw that the consequences would be very disagreeable. What would these consequences be?—he evaded an answer by repeating general expressions. Spain could make her own terms he said with G. Britain. He considered the Commercial connection proposed as entirely in favor of the U. S. & that in a little time the ports of Spain wd. be shut agst. fish. He was asked whether agst. all fish or only agst. fish from U. S.: from all places not in treaty he said with Spain. Spain would act according to her own ideas. She would not be governed by other people’s ideas of her interest.
He was very sorry for the instructions passed by Virginia; he foresaw bad consequences from them. He had written to soften the matter as well as he cd. but that troops & stores wd. certainly reinforce N. Orleans in consequence of the Resolutions.
He had not conferred at all with the Minister of For. Affairs since Octr. and did not expect to confer again. He did not expect to remain much longer in America. He wished he might not be a true prophet, but it would be found that we mistook our interest, and that Spain wd. make us feel the vulnerable side of our commerce by abridging it in her ports.
With an air of ostensible jocoseness he hinted that the people of Kentucky would make good Spanish subjects, and that they would become such for the sake of the privilege annexed to that character.
He seemed to be disposed to make us believe that Spain & Britain understood one another—that he knew the views of G. Britain in holding the western posts—and that Spain had it in her power to make G. B. bend to her views. He affected a misterious air on this point, which only proved that he was at a loss what to say to the probability and tendency of a connection between G. B. & the western settlements, in case the mississpi sd. be given up by Congs.
He intimated that Spain could not grant any inlet of the American trade by Treaty: but that in case of a treaty, trade thro’ the Missippi as well as other channels wd. be winked at.
In speaking of the Mississpi and the right of Spain he alluded to the case of the Tagus which Spain had never pretended to a right of navigating thro’ Portugal. It was observed to him that in estimating the rights of Nations in such cases regard must be had to their respective proportions of territory on the River. Suppose Spain held only 5 Acres on each side at the mouth of Missipii wd. she pretend to an exclusive right in such case? He said that was not the Case; Spain had a great proportion. How much? After some confusion & hesitation he sd. she claimed at least as far as the Ohio. We smiled, & asked how far Eastwardly from the Mispi. He became still more at a loss for an answer, & turned it off by insinuating that he had conversed on that matter with the Secretary of F. Affairs.
He was reminded of the doctrine maintained by Spain in 1608, as to the Scheld. He seemed not [to] have known the fact, and resolved it into some political consideration of the times.
He was asked whether the partition of the B. Empire could deprive this part of it, of the rights appertaining to the King of G. B. as King of this Country, and even whether the rupture of G. B & Spain could deprive, in justice, the U. S. of Rights which they held under the Treaty of 1763 whilst they remained a part of the British Empire? Whether in case no such rupture had happened. the Treaty between Spain & that part of the Empire would have been dissolved by the Revolution? &c &c. He did not seem well to understand the principles into which such questions resolved themselves—and gave them the go by, referring the claim of Spain principally to her conquests of the British possessions in N. America.
He betrayed strongly the anxiety of Spain to retard the population of the Western Country; observing that when ever sufficient force should arise therein, it wd. be impossible for it [to] be controuled: That any conciliating measures that might be taken now, would have little effect on their temper & views 50 or 100 years hence when they should be in force.
When we rose to take leave, he begged us to remember what he had said as to the inflexibility of Spain on the point of the Mississpi and the consequences to America of her adherence to her present pretensions.


Title: Edmund Randolph to Virginia Delegates, 15 March 1787
From: Randolph, Edmund
To: Virginia Delegates

Gentlemen,
Richmond March 15. 1787
I have the honor of acknowledging the receipt of your favor of the 5th. instant, and the inclosed memorial from Mr. Van Berkel. Should any public document throw a light upon his demand in the course of its discussion, it will be very agreeable to the executive to have access to it.
The complaints of our merchants against the pressures of the late laws of trade have formed a distressing picture of our commerce: Yesterday was handed to me an address in folio from the mercantile interest at Norfolk; representing among a gloomy group instances of vessels, having touched in Virginia and immediately abandoning it for Maryland. Unfortunately too they were not acquainted with a tax of 6d. per month on Virginia seamen alone for the payment of annuities to the widows of sailors, registered, and the necessity of incurring a fee of pilotage, even for the smallest sea vessels. The act imposing the 6d. being of the revised code, and having passed in October 1785, crept into existence, unthought of at the last session, while the assembly were accumulating duties; and the fee of pilotage was certainly unknown to be capable of such desolation in our small shipping.
From the recommendations of the county courts for appointments to commands in the militia, we have reason to hope for a speedy recovery from the late confusions in the arrangements of our national defence. But I fear, that energy will be long a stranger to our efforts; unless the legislature will surrender popular men in favor of able and experienced officers.
We are on the point of erecting a general magazine and arsenal in the county of Fluvanna; and the determination of the executive seems to be to provide by every possible means, for the defence of our country against invasion or insurrection. But I doubt whether we shall discover more than zealous wishes, and the barrenness of our treasury.
Every day brings some apprehensions of an attack on Kentucky. We can assist them no further than to furnish them with blank commissions for officering the militia. I have the honor gentlemen to be with great respect & esteem yr. mo. ob. serv.
Edm: Randolph
Be so good as to send me a copy of the treaty with Sweden.


Title: To James Madison from Edmund Randolph, 15 March 1787
From: Randolph, Edmund
To: Madison, James

15 March 1787. Acknowledged in JM to Randolph, 2 April 1787. Requested JM to inform Gardoqui of the action of the Virginia council disavowing responsibility for George Rogers Clark’s seizure of Spanish property at Vincennes.


Title: From James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, 18 March 1787
From: Madison, James
To: Jefferson, Thomas

Dear Sir
N. York. March 18th. 1787
My endeavors to obtain for you the peccan Nuts have all been unsuccessful untill a few days ago when I recd. by the post about a dozen of them which I now enclose. They go by a French Gentleman in a vessel bound for England, who will either carry them himself to Paris, or consign them to the care of Mr. Adams. I do not yet despair of being able to possess myself of the full quantity which you wished. My endeavours have been equally unsuccessful as to the seed of the Sugar Maple, notwithstanding the different plans pursued for the purpose. I have begun a letter to you of some length which I allotted for this conveyance, but the short notice I had of it, the tediousness of writing in Cypher, and several unseasonable interruptions make it doubtful whether I shall be able to finish it. If I should it will accompany this. The fear of losing the opportunity for both induces me to send this off without delay. I remain yr. affecte. friend & Servt.
Js. Madison Jr.


Title: From James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, 19 March 1787
From: Madison, James
To: Jefferson, Thomas

Dear Sir
N. York. March 19th. 1787
My last was of the 15th. of Feby. and went by the Packet. This will go to England in the care of a French gentleman who will consign it to the care of Mr. Adams.
The appointments for the Convention go on auspiciously. Since my last Georgia, S. Carolina, N. York, Massts. and N. Hampshire have come into the measure. The first and last of these States have commissioned their delegates to Congress, as their representatives in Convention. The deputation of Massts. consists of Messrs. Ghoram, Dana, King, Gerry, and Strong. That of N. York, Messrs. Hamilton Yates & Lansing. That of S. Carolina, Messrs. J. Rutledge, Laurens. Pinkney (General) Butler, and Chas. Pinkney lately member of Congress. The States which have not yet appointed are R. Island, Connecticut, and Maryland. The last has taken measures which prove her intention to appoint, and the two former it is not doubted will follow the example of their neighbours. I just learn from the Governor of Virginia that Mr. Henry has resigned his place in the deputation from that State, and that Genl. Nelson is put into it by the Executive who were authorized to fill vacancies. The Governor, Mr. Wythe & Mr. Blair will attend, and some hopes are entertained of Col. Mason’s attendance. Genl. Washington has prudently authorized no expectations of his attendance. but has not either precluded himself absolutely from stepping into that field if the crisis should demand it. What may be the result of this political experiment cannot be foreseen. The difficulties which present themselves are on one side almost sufficient to dismay the most sanguine, whilst on the other side the most timid are compelled to encounter them by the mortal diseases of the existing constitution. These diseases need not be pointed out to you who so well understand them. Suffice it to say that they are at present marked by symptoms which are truly alarming, which have tainted the faith of the most orthodox republicans, and which challenge from the votaries of liberty every concession in favor of stable Government not infringing fundamental principles, as the only security against an opposite extreme of our present situation. I think myself that it will be expedient in the first place to lay the foundation of the new system in such a ratification by the people themselves of the several States as will render it clearly paramount to their Legislative authorities. 2dly. Over & above the positive power of regulating trade and sundry other matters in which uniformity is proper, to arm the federal head with a negative in all cases whatsoever on the local Legislatures. Without this defensive power experience and reflection have satisfied me that however ample the federal powers may be made, or however Clearly their boundaries may be delineated, on paper, they will be easily and continually baffled by the Legislative sovereignties of the States. The effects of this provision would be not only to guard the national rights and interests against invasion, but also to restrain the States from thwarting and molesting each other, and even from oppressing the minority within themselves by paper money and other unrighteous measures which favor the interest of the majority. In order to render the exercise of such a negative prerogative convenient, an emanation of it must be vested in some set of men within the several States so far as to enable them to give a temporary sanction to laws of immediate necessity. 3dly. to change the principle of Representation in the federal system. Whilst the execution of the Acts of Congs. depends on the several legislatures, the equality of votes does not destroy the inequality of importance and influence in the States. But in case of such an augmentation of the federal power as will render it efficient without the intervention of the Legislatures, a vote in the general Councils from Delaware would be of equal value with one from Massts. or Virginia. This change therefore is just. I think also it will be practicable. A majority of the States conceive that they will be gainers by it. It is recommended to the Eastern States by the actual superiority of their populousness, and to the Southern by their expected superiority. And if a majority of the larger States concur, the fewer and smaller States must finally bend to them. This point being gained, many of the objections now urged in the leading States agst. renunciations of power will vanish. 4thly. to organise the federal powers in such a manner as not to blend together those which ought to be exercised by separate departments. The limited powers now vested in Congs. are frequently mismanaged from the want of such a distribution of them: What would be the case, under an enlargement not only of the powers, but the number, of the federal Representatives? These are some of the leading ideas which have occurred to me, but which may appear to others as improper, as they appear to me necessary.
Congress have continued so thin as to be incompetent to the despatch of the more important business before them. We have at present nine States and it is not improbable that something may now be done. The report of Mr. Jay on the mutual violations of the Treaty of peace will be among the first subjects of deliberation. He favors the British claim of interest but refers the question to the court. The amount of the report which is an able one is that the treaty should be put in force as a law and the exposition of it left like that of other laws to the ordinary tribunals.
The Spanish project sleeps. A perusal of the attempt of seven states to make a new treaty by repealing an essential condition of the old satisfied me that Mr. Jay’s caution would revolt at so irregular a sanction. A late accidental conversation with Guardoqui proved to me that the negociation is arrested. It may appear strange that a member of Congress should be indebted to a foreign minister for such information yet such is the footing on which the intemperance of party has put the matter that it rests wholly with Mr. Jay how far he will communicate with Congress as well as how far he will negociate with Guardoqui. But although it appears that the intended sacrifice of the Missisipi will not be made, the consequences of the intention and the attempt are likely to be very serious. I have already made known to you the light in which the subject was taken up by Virginia. Mr. Henry’s disgust exceeded all measure and I am not singular in ascribing his refusal to attend the Convention to the policy of keeping himself free to combat or espouse the result of it according to the result of the Missisipi business. Among other circumstances North Carolina also has given pointed instructions to her delegates, so has New Jersey. A proposition for the like purpose was a few days ago made in the legislature of Pensylvania but went off without a decision on its merits. Her delegates in Congress are equally divided on the subject. The tendency of this project to foment distrusts among the Atlantic states at a crisis when harmony and confidence ought to have been studiously cherished has not been more verified than its predicted effect on the ultramontane settlements. I have credible information that the people living on the western waters are already in great agitation and are taking measures for uniting their consultations. The ambition of individuals will quickly mix itself with the original motives of resentment and interest. A communication will gradually take place with their British neighbors. They will be led to set up for themselves to seise on the vacant lands to entice emigrants by bounties and an exemption from federal burdens and in all respects to play the part of Vermont on a larger theatre. It is hinted to me that British partisans are already feeling the pulse of some of the West settlements. Should these apprehensions not be imaginary Spain may have equal reason with the United States to rue the unnatural attempt to shut the Missisipi. Guardoqui has been admonished of the danger and I believe is not insensible to it tho’ he affects to be otherwise and talks as if the dependence of Britain on the commercial favors of his court would induce her to play into the hands of Spain. The eye of France also can not fail to watch over the western prospects. I learn from those who confer here with Otto and de la forest that they favor the opening of the Missisipi disclaim[in]g at the same time any authority to speak the sentiments of their court. I find that the Virginia delegates during the Missisipi discussions last fall entered into very confidential interviews with these gentlemen. In one of them the idea was communicated to Otto of opening the Missisipi for exports but not for imports and of giving to France and Spain some exclusive privileges in the trade. He promised to transmit it to Vergennes to obtain his sentiments on the whole matter and to communicate them to the delegates. Not long since Grayson called on him and revived the subject. He assured G—— that he had received no answer from France and signified his wish that you might pump the Count de Vergennes observing that he would deny to you his having received any information from America. I discover thro several channels that it would be very grateful to the French politicians here to see our negociations with Spain shifted into your hands and carried on under the mediating auspices of their court.
Van Berkel has remonstrated against the late acts of Virginia giving privileges to French wines and brandies in French bottoms contending that the Dutch are entitled by their treaty to equal exemptions with the most favored nation without being subject to a compensation for them. Mr. Jay has reported against this construction but considers the act of Virginia as violating the treaty first because it appears to be gratuitous not compensatory on the face of it. Secondly because the states have no right to form tacit compacts with foreign nations. No decision of Congress has yet taken place on the subject.
The expedition under General Lincoln agst. the insurgents has effectually succeeded in dispersing them. Whether the calm which he has restored will be durable or not is uncertain. From the precautions taking by the Govt. of Massts. it would seem as if their apprehensions were not extinguished. Besides disarming and disfranchising for a limited time those who have been in arms, as a condition of their pardon, a military corps is to be raised to the amount of 1000, or 1500 men, and to be stationed in the most suspected districts. It is said that notwithstanding these specimens of the temper of the Government, a great proportion of the offenders chuse rather to risk the consequences of their treason, than submit to the conditions annexed to the amnesty, that they not only appear openly on public occasions but distinguish themselves by badges of their character, and that this insolence is in many instances countenanced by no less decisive marks of popular favor than elections to local offices of trust & authority.
A proposition is before the Legislature of this State now sitting for renouncing its pretensions to Vermont, and urging the admission of it into the Confederacy. The different parties are not agreed as to the form in which the renunciation should be made, but are likely to agree as to the substance. Should the offer be made, and Vermont should not reject it altogether I think they will insist on two stipulations at least, 1st. that their becoming parties to the Confederation shall not subject their boundaries, or the rights of their citizens to be questioned under the 9th. art: 2dly. that they shall not be subject to any part of the public debts already contracted.
The Geographer and his assistants have returned surveys on the federal lands to the amount of about 800,000 Acres which it is supposed would sell pretty readily for public securities, and some of it lying on the Ohio even for specie. It will be difficult however to get the proper steps taken by Congress so many of the states having now lands of their own at market. It is supposed that this consideration had some share in the zeal for shutting the Missisipi. New Jersey and some others having no western lands which favored this measure begin now to penetrate the secret.
A letter from the Govr. of Virga. informs me that the project of paper money is beginning to recover from the blow given it at the last Session of the Legislature. If Mr. H. espouses it of which there is little doubt I think an emission will take place. The Governor mentions the death of Col A. Cary speaker of the Senate.
This letter will be accompanied by another inclosing a few Peccan Nuts. When I sent the latter to the Gentleman who is charged with it, I doubted whether I should be able to finish this in time, and I only succeed by having written to the last moment. Adeiu. Yrs. Afey.
Js. Madison Jr


Title: From James Madison to Edmund Randolph, 19 March 1787
From: Madison, James
To: Randolph, Edmund

My dear Sir
New York March 19th. 1787.
I have been favored with yours of the 1st. instant for which I make you my acknowledgments. The public letter which goes by this mail with the papers inclosed contain all the current information. I have made enquiry as to the copies of the Treaties with Europe & the Indian Nations, which you wish to be forwarded, and am told that you will find all of them on the printed Journals of Congress, copies of which have been transmitted from the Secretary’s office to all the Executi[v]es. If there should have been any miscarriage of the despatch to the Executive of Virginia, or if your request referred to the money conventions, which have not been printed, I will on notice, provide for your information. Yrs affecy.
Js. M. Jr


Title: Virginia Delegates to Edmund Randolph, 19 March 1787
From: Virginia Delegates
To: Randolph, Edmund

Sir
New York March 19th. 1787.
Your Excellency’s two favors of the 1st. and 4th. of March, with the papers referred to have been duly received. Of the latter a discretionary use will be made as you are pleased to recommend.
A copy of the Note from Mr. Vanberkle complaining of Certain late acts of Virginia has been already transmitted. I now add the Report of the Secretary for Foreign Affairs on the subject, which has not yet undergone the consideration of Congress.
The appointments for the Convention go on auspiciously. All the States have now come into the measure except Maryland of whom no doubt is entertained: and Connecticut and Rhode Island, who it is expected will follow the example of their Neighbours.
Notwithstanding the apparent victory in Massachussetts over the spirit of rebellion, it is said that at least half the offenders choose rather to defy the consequences of treason, than accept of the amnesty on the conditions annexed to it; that they not only appear openly on public occasions, but have the insolence to wear badges of their character, and that this boldness is countenanced in many places by popular elections of them to local offices.
A proposition has been introduced & discussed in the Legislature here for relinquishing the claim of the State to Vermont and urging the admission of it into the Union. The substance of the proposition is not disliked by any party and it is expected will be agreed to. The only difference of opinion turns on the form, the party not interested in claims to lands within that district being jealous of a design in the interested party to involve a responsibility in the State for compensation, and the latter party being not less jealous perhaps of a latent wish in the former to see their claims barred even of the chance which the 9th. art: of the Union will present if Vermont should become a member of it. The reports of a friendly communication between that district and Canada have of late been very strong and if well founded render it unlikely that the Government of it will be disposed to join the confederacy at all. In no case will they do it I presume without securing their boundaries, and the rights of their people agst. the operation of the 9th. art: of Confederation, and the State agst. the burden of the public debt already contracted.
Congress have been too thin for the dispatch of important business, and indeed for any business at all. To day we have 9 States in Town. How long that number may remain is uncertain, and if it should remain how far in practice it may be found competent to the business of 7 States is equally so. With the highest respect & esteem I have the honor to be Sir Yr. most Obedt. hble servt.
Js. Madison Jr


Title: Notes on Debates, 21 March 1787
From: Madison, James
To:

Wednesday Mar. 21. [1787]
The subject of yesterday Resumed.
Mr. Yates was now satisfied with the Resolutions as they stood. The words, “constitutionally made” as applied to the Treaty seemed to him on consideration to qualify sufficiently the doctrine on which the Resolution was founded.
The 1st. Resolution declaring the Treaty to have the force of a law & denying the Right of any State to contravene it was agreed to without dissent & almost without observation.

The 2d & 3d Resolutions urging on the States a repeal of all laws contravening the Treaty, (1st. that they might not continue to operate, as violations of it. 2d. that questions might be avoided touching their validity) underwent some criticisms & discussions.
Mr. Varnum & Mr. Mitchel thought they did not consist with the first which declared such laws to be void, in which case they cd. not operate as violations.
Mr. Madison observed that a Repeal of those contravening laws was expedient & even necessary to free the Courts from the bias of their oaths which bound the Judges more strongly to the State than the federal authority. The distinction too he said might be started possibly between laws prior & laws subsequent to the Treaty: a Repealing effect of the Treaty on the former, not necessarily implying the nullity of the latter. Supposing the Treaty to have the validity of a law only, it would repeal all antecedent laws. To render succeeding laws void, it must have more than the mere authority of a law. In case these succeeding laws contrary to the Treaty should come into discussion before the Courts, it would be necessary to examine the foundation of the federal authority, and to determine whether it had the validity of a Constitution, paramount to the legislative authority in each State. This was a delicate question, and studiously to be avoided as it was notorious that although in some of the States the Confederation was incorporated with & had the sanction of their respective Constitutions, yet in others it recd. a legislative ratification only and rested on no other basis. He admitted however that the word operate might be changed for the better & proposed in its place, the words “be regarded” as violations of the Treaty which was agreed to without objection.
Mr. King in the course of the business observed that a question had been raised in N. York, whether stipulations as they might affect Citizens only and not foreigners could, restrain the States from legislating with respect to the former, and supposed that such stipulations could not.
The Resolutions passed unanimously.


Title: To James Madison from Edmund Randolph, 22 March 1787
From: Randolph, Edmund
To: Madison, James

My dear friend
Richmond March 22. 1787.
I am afraid by your omission to acknowledge my letters, that all of them, tho’ written punctually to the time, except during my absence to the Naval offices, have miscarried.
Genl. Nelson refuses to join us. Colo. R. H. Lee has been appointed in his stead. This seemed proper from the conspicuousness of the Character, and the respect, due to past services. The objection to his unfoederal opinions was so urgently pressed, that the council consisting of eight were equally divided. I gave the decision, from a hope that himself and his friends might be attached to the union, on those principles, which can alone support it. Should Mr. Lee refuse or another vacancy happen, no other appointment will be made.
Mr. Fox’s conduct is mysterious. I have seen a private letter (on which however we cannot publickly act) from him to Colo. Henley, declaring that he will not leave Phila. until money is advanced, and his allowance increased. Henley is left here without a shilling of money—the accounts are ready—our commissioner goes on a standing salary of 300£ per annum—and congress will lose ground, if Fox should hold off, as he threatens.
Some doubt, whether Mr. M. Smith will be elected. They urge no plausible reason for such an opinion.
Colo. Nicholas is assaulted in Albemarle for the tenor of past politicks; and yet, mirabile dictu! Mr. Edwd. Carter will probably be elected, altho’ paper money and hostility to British debts are his profession and characteristics. Adieu
E. R.


Title: To James Madison from William Short, 23 March 1787
From: Short, William
To: Madison, James

Dear Sir
March 23 1787
Mr. Jefferson’s absence preventing his writing to you by this Packet, I suppose it may not be disagreeable to you to hear of him from other hands. He left this place the last of February, in order to see whether the waters of Aix would be of service to his wrist put out of place some months ago, & I fear badly set. I recieved a letter from him on the 15th. when he had got as far as Lyons: He was much pleased with his journey that far. He had attended very particularly to the soil agriculture & condition of the labouring poor, in Champagne, Burgundy, & Beaujolais. The latter he considers as the “richest country” he ever beheld. He observed in Champagne that the low grounds were of a brownish red, a singular circumstance to an American as in that country, they are always black or grey.
The Marquis de la fayette, who is now constantly occupied at Versailles by the business of the Assemblee des notables, desires me in a letter I have this moment recieved from him, to let his friends in America know that he is well—which by the bye is not true. [He has a] bad cold fixed in the breast, & which his friends fear his indefatigable application to business at this moment, will increase. He desires me also to let them know that he has been obliged from his constant occupations to miss the favourable opportunity of writing to them by mr. Walton who sails in this packet. I mention this circumstance to you Sir because I know there are none of his friends North of the Potowmac, to whom he is more attached than yourself, nor any whose correspondence he values more.
I have lately recieved an account of the dreadful fire in Richmond. I am much distressed by the heavy losses to which several of my friends & acquaintance have been exposed. But I shall be still more so, if it should tend to shake the foundation of the Capitol. There is a M. Duquesnay lately arrived here, who seems well acquainted with the dispositions of people on that subject—who has resided some time in Richmond, & is engaged in a complicated project there to which he seems much attached. He fears that this disaster will produce very bad effects on the minds of those who decide the fate of the capitol.
I beg pardon Sir for taking the liberty to trouble you with so long a letter. I feel very sensibly my obligations to the present situation of your friends Mr. Jefferson & the Marquis de la fayette, as it authorized me in some measure to address you & furnished an opportunity of assuring you that I am, with sentiments of the greatest respect & sincerest esteem Your friend & servant
W: Short


Title: Virginia Delegates to Edmund Randolph, 25 March 1787
From: Virginia Delegates
To: Randolph, Edmund

Sir
New York Mar. 25. 1787.
Since my last the Delegation has received your Excellency’s two favors of the 16th. ult. and the 8th. inst. The anonymous paper inclosed in the former certainly merits serious attention, and will be communicated to Congress.
The Report of Mr. Jay on the Note of Mr. Van Berkel has not yet received a decision. The subject of it involves several nice questions which require an accurate attention as well to the federal Constitution as to the Commercial Treaty with Holland.
Congress have within the course of the past week been investigating the savings which might be derived from an oeconomical revision of the Civil list, and have made reductions of salaries to the amount of about 20,000 dollars. It is proposed to extend the reform to the abolition of such offices as are not indispensible. The Act which has already past shall be forwarded by the next mail.
The proposition made in the Legislature of this State for renouncing its pretensions with respect to Vermont, seems to meet with obstacles. No definitive question however has yet been taken. I have the honor to be Yr. Excelly’s Most Obdt & hble Servt
Js. Madison Jr


Title: To James Madison from Edmund Randolph, 27 March 1787
From: Randolph, Edmund
To: Madison, James

My dear friend
Richmond March 27. 1787.
I have turned my mind somewhat to the business of may next: but am hourly interrupted. At present I conceive

1. that the alterations shd. be grafted on the old confederation
2. that what is best in itself, not merely what can be obtained from the assemblies, be adopted.
3. that the points of power to be granted be so detached from each other, as to permit a state to reject one part, without mutilating the whole.
With these objects, ought not some general propositions to be prepared for feeling the pulse of the convention on the subject at large? Ought not an address to accompany the new constitution?
I was informed, that Colo. R. H. Lee attended at Northumberland court house a few days ago at a meeting of the patriotic society. This renders it probable, that he has not yet quitted the field of politicks.
Perjury has lately increased to an alarming degree here, as well as in England. I suspect, that its enormous magnitude will soon be displayed in a very conspicuous instance, and in a conspicuous prosecution.
Oster, the consul, insists that Frenchmen cannot marry here without the royal permission. Mr. Latill has lately married Miss Lucy Randolph, and I wish you could obtain a hint from Otto or some other jurispente. Adieu. Yrs sincerely
E. R.


Title: Edmund Randolph to Virginia Delegates, 27 March 1787
From: Randolph, Edmund
To: Virginia Delegates

Gentlemen
Richmond March 27. 1787
I do myself the honor of enclosing to you a copy of Mr. Martin’s letter our late Indian agent, promised in my former letter.
When I wrote the other day; I urged Mr. Fox’s return. It was then supposed, that the business must stagnate in his absence. But a further inspection of the public acts has satisfied us of the contrary. I hope that the opportunity reserved for revision in the inclosed advice will be satisfactory on the ground of candor.
The Cherokees and the Shawanese have killed three persons in a Settlement on Clinch river, on the 9th. instant. They were few in number and retired in haste. This intelligence is affirmed to me by Colo. Arthur Campbell, and leaves no hope, that the Cherokees, should they abandon their homes as Colo. Martin supposes, will pass Virginia inoffensively. I have the honor to be gentlemen with great respect Yr. mo. ob. serv.
Edm: Randolph


Title: Notes on Debates, 28 March 1787
From: Madison, James
To:

Nothing of consequence till
March 28th [1787]—Wednesday
Mr. King reminded Congs. of the motion on the  day of  for discontinuing the enlistments and intimated that the State of things in Massts was at present such that no opposition would now be made by the Delegation of that State. A Committee was appointed, in general to consider the military: Establishment, and particularly to report a proper Resolution for stopping the enlistments.
The Virga. delegates laid before Congs. Sundry papers from the Executive of that State relating to the seizure of Spanish property by Genl. Clarke—and the incendiary efforts on foot in the Western Country agst. the Spaniards &c—no comment was made on them; nor was any vote taken.


Title: Notes on Debates, 29 March 1787
From: Madison, James
To:

Thursday March 29. [1787]
The Committee appd. to confer with the Treasy. Board on the great business of a final settlemt. of the accts. of the U. States, reported that they be discharged; and the Board instructed to report an ordinance. Mr. King in explanation sd. that it was the sense of the Commtee and of the Treasy. board both, that Commissrs. shd. be appointed with full & final powers to decide on the claims of the States agst. the Union &c. The Report was agreed to nem. contr.
Sundry papers from the Illinois complaining of the grievances of that Country which had arrived by a special Express were laid before Congs by the presidt. and committed.
Mr. Mitchell from Connecticut observed that the papers from Virga: communicated yesterday were of a very serious nature, and shewed that we were in danger of being precipitated into disputes with Spain which ought to be avoided if possible; & moved that those papers might be referred to the Committee on the Illinois papers, which was done without opposition; Mr. King only observing that they contained mere information, & did not in his view need any step to be taken on them.

Thursday March 29th. continued
The Virga. delegates communicated to Mr. Guardoqui the proceedings of the Executive relative to Clarke’s seizure of Spanish property, at which he expressed much regret, as a friend to the U. S. though as a Spanish Minister he had little reason to dread the tendency of such outrages. The communication was followed by a free conversation on the Western Country & the Mississpi. The observations of the delegates tended to impress him 1. with the unfriendly temper which would be produced in the Western people both agst. Spain & the U. S. by a concerted exclusion of that river 2. with the probability of throwing them into the arms of G. B. 3. of accelerating the population of that Country after the example of Vermont. 4. the danger of such numbers under British influence as well to Spanish America as to the Atlantic States. 5 the universal opinion of right in the U S. to the free use of the River. 6. the disappointment of the people of America at an attempt in Spain to make their condition worse as Citizens of an independent State in amity & lately engaged in a common cause than as subjects of a formidable & unfriendly power. 7 the inefficacy of an attempt in Congs. to fulfil a Treaty for shutting the Mississpi. & the folly of their entering into such stipulation. 8. that it would be wise in Spain to foresee & provide for events that could not be controlled, rather than to make fruitless efforts to prevent, or procrastinate them.
Mr. G. reiterated his assertion that Spain would never accede to the claim of the U. S. to navigate the river. 2. urged that the result of what was said was that Congs. could enter into no Treaty at all. 3. that the trade of Spain was of great importance & would certainly be shut agst. U. S., affecting to disregard the remark that if Spain continued to use fish flower &c. her interest would restrain her from shutting her ports agst. the American Competition. 4. He signified that he had observed the weakness of the Union & foreseen its probable breach; that he lamented the danger of it as he wished to see it preserved & strength[en]ed which was more than France or any other Nation in Europe did. No reply was made to this remark. The sincerity of his declaration as to his own wishes was not free from suspicion. 5 He laid much stress on the service Spain had Rendered the U. S. during the struggle for their independence, considering it as laying them under great obligations. The reality of the service was not denied, but he was reminded of the interest Spain had in dividing a power which had given the law to the House of Bourbon & compelled Spain to relinquish, as he said, the exclusive use of the Missipi. 6 In answer to the remark that Spain was for putting the U. S. on a worse footing than they stood on as British subjects, he not only mentioned the necessity which dictated the Treaty of 1763, but contended that the recovery of W. Florida made a distinction in the case. It was observed to him that as the navigable channel of the Misspi. ran between the Island & the Western Shore, Spain had the same pretext from holding both shores, when Florida was a British Colony as since. He would neither accede to the inference, nor deny the fact. 7. He intimated with a jocular air the possibility of the Western people becoming Spanish subjects; and with a serious one that such an idea had been brought forward to the King of Spain by some person connected with the Western Country, but that his Majesty’s dignity & Character would never countenance it. It was replied that that consideration was no doubt a sufficient obstacle—but it was presumed that such subjects would not be very convenient to Spain. It would be much more for the interest of Spain that they should be friendly neighbours, than refractory subjects. It did not appear that he viewed the matter in a different light. 8. He disclaimed his having ever assented to or approved of any limited occlusion of the Missipi—tho’ in a manner that did not speak a real inflexibility on that point. 9. It appeared clearly that the check to the Western settlements was a favorite object & that the occlusion of the Missippi. was considered as having that tendency. 10. The futility of many of his arguments & answers, satisfied the Delegates that they cd. not appear convincing to himself, and that he was of course pursuing rather the ideas of his Court than his own.


Title: Notes on Debates, 30 March 1787
From: Madison, James
To:

Friday Mar. 30th. [1787]
Mr. Jay’s report in favor of the admission of Phineas Bond as British Consul for the middle States, was called for by Mr. Cadwallader. Mr. Madison said he was far from being satisfied of the propriety of the measure: he was a friend in general to a liberal policy & admitted that the U. S. were more in the wrong in the violation of the Treaty of Peace than G. B. But still the latter was not blameless. He thought however the question turned on different considerations. 1. The facility of the U. S. in granting privileges to G. B. without a Treaty of Commerce, instead of begetting a disposition to conclude such a Treaty had been found on trial to be made a reason agst. it. 2. The indignity of G. B. in neglecting to send a public minister to the U. S. notwithstanding the lapse of time since Mr. Adams’s arrival there, gave them no titles to favors in that line; and self-respect seemed to require that the U. S. should at least proceed with distrust & reserve.
Mr. Grayson thought as the Secretary had done that it would be good policy to admit Mr. Bond, and that it could not be decently & without offence refused after the admission of Mr. Temple.
Mr Clarke said he was at first puzzled how to vote, as he did not like the admission proposed on one hand, and on the other thought it not decent to refuse it after the admission of Mr. Temple. On reflecting however that Mr. Temple was admitted at a time when hopes were entertained of a Commercial Treaty which had since vanished—& that the question might be postponed generally without being negatived, he should accede to the idea of doing nothing on the subject.
Mr. Varnum animadverted on the obnoxious character of Mr. Bond, and conceived that alone a sufficient reason for not admitting him. The postponement was agreed to without any overt dissent except that of Mr. Grayson.
The delegates from N. Carolina communicated to Congress sundry papers Conspiring with the other proofs of discontent in the Western Country at the supposed surrender of the Misspi—and of hostile machinations agst. the Spaniards.
It was orderd that they should be referred to the Secry. of Foreign Affairs for his information. It was then moved that the papers relative to the same subjects from Virga., yesterday referred to a Committe should, after discharging the Commtee. be referred to the Office of Foreign Affrs. Mr. Clark proposed, to add “to report.” This was objected to by Mr. King, and brought on some general observations on the proceedings of Congs. in the Affair of the Mississippi. It was at length agreed that the reference sd. be made without an instruction to report. Mr. Pierce then observed that it had been hinted by Mr. Madison as proper to instruct the Secy. of F. Affrs. to lay before Congs. the State of his negociation with Mr. Guardoqui, and made a motion to that effect which was seconded by several at once.
Mr. King hoped Congs. would not be hurried into a decision on that point, observing that it was a very delicate one—that he did not altogether like it—and yet it was of such a nature that it might appear strange to negative it. He desired that it might at least lie over till monday.
Mr. Madison concurred in wishing the same, being persuaded, that the propriety of the motion was so clear, that nothing could produce dissent, unless it were forcing members into an unwilling decision.
The Motion was withdrawn, with notice that it would be renewed on Monday next.


Title: To James Madison from George Washington, 31 March 1787
From: Washington, George
To: Madison, James

My dear Sir,
Mount Vernon 31st. Mar: 1787.
At the same time that I acknowledge the receipt of your obliging favor of the 21st. Ult. from New York, I promise to avail myself of your indulgence of writing only when it is convenient to me. If this should not occasion a relaxation on your part, I shall become very much your debtor—and possibly like others in similar circumstances (when the debt is burthensome) may feel a disposition to apply the spunge—or, what is nearly a-kin to it—pay you off in depreciated paper, which being a legal tender, or what is tantamount, being that or nothing, you cannot refuse. You will receive the nominal value, & that you know quiets the conscience, and makes all things easy—with the debto[rs].
I am glad to find that Congress have recommended to the States to appear in the Convention proposed to be holden in Philadelphia in May. I thin[k] the reasons in favor, have the preponderancy of those against the measure. It is idle in my opinion to suppose that the Sovereign can be insensible of the inadequacy of the powers under which it acts—and that seeing, it should not recommend a revision of the Foederal system, when it is considered by many as the only Constitutional mode by which the defects can be remedied. Had Congress proceeded to a delineation of the Powers, it might have sounded an alarm—but as the case is, I do not conceive that it will have that effect.
From the acknowledged abilities of the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, I could have had no doubt of his having ably investigated the infractions of the Treaty on both sides. Much is it to be regretted however, that there should have been any on ours. We seem to have forgotten, or never to have learnt, the policy of placing ones enemy in the wrong. Had we observed good faith on our part, we might have told our tale to the world with a good grace; but complts. illy become those who are found to be the first agressors.
I am fully of opinion that those who lean to a Monarchical governmt. have either not consulted the public mind, or that they live in a region where the levelling principles in which they were bred, being entirely irradicated, is much more productive of Monarchical ideas than are to be found in the Southern States, where from the habitual distinctions which have always existed among the people, one would have expected the first generation, and the most rapid growth of them. I also am clear, that even admitting the utility;—nay necessity of the form—yet that the period is not arrived for adopting the change without shaking the Peace of this Country to its foundation.
That a thorough reform of the present system is indispensable, none who have capacities to judge will deny and with hand and heart I hope the business will be essayed in a full Convention. After which, if more powers, and more decision is not found in the existing form—If it still wants energy and that secresy and dispatch (either from the non-attendance, or the local views of its members) which is characteristick of good Government—And if it shall be found (the contrary of which however I have always been more affrd. of, than of the abuse of them) that Congress will upon all proper occasions exercise the powers with a firm and steady hand, instead of frittering them back to the Individual States where the members in place of viewing themselves in their National character, are too apt to be looking—I say after this essay is made if the system proves inefficient, conviction of the necessity of a change will be dissiminated among all classes of the People. Then, and not till then, in my opinion can it be attempted without involving all the evils of civil discord.
I confess however that my opinion of public virtue is so far changed that I have my doubts whether any system without the means of coercion in the Sovereign, will enforce obedience to the Ordinances of a Genl. Government; without which, every thing else fails. Laws or Ordinances unobserved, or partially attended to, had better never have been made; because the first is a mere nihil—and the 2d is productive of much jealousy & discontent. But the kind of coercion you may ask? This indeed will require thought; though the non-compliance of the States with the late requisition, is an evidence of the necessity.
It is somewhat singular that a State (New York) which used to be foremost in all foederal measures, should now turn her face against them in almost every instance.
I fear the State of Massachusetts have exceeded the bounds of good policy in its disfranchisements—punishment is certainly due to the disturbers of a government, but the operations of this act is too extensive. It embraces too much—& probably may give birth to new, instead of destroying the old leven.
Some Acts passed at the last Session of our Assembly respecting the trade of this Country, has given great, and general discontent to the Merchants of it. An application from the whole body of those at Norfolk has been made, I am told, to conven[e] the assembly.

I had written thus far, and was on the point of telling you how much I am your obliged Servant, when your favor of the 18th. calls upon me for additional acknowledgments.
I thank you for the Indian Vocabalary which I dare say will be very acceptable in a general comparison. Having taken a copy, I return you the original with thanks.
It gives me pleasure to hear that there is a probability of a full Representation of the States in Convention, but if the delegates come to it under fetters, the salutary ends proposed will in my opinion be greatly embarrassed & retarded, if not altogether defeated. I am anxious to know how this matter really is, as my wish is, that the Convention may adopt no temporising expedient, but probe the defects of the Constitution to the bottom, and provide radical cures, whether they are agreed to or not. A conduct like this, will stamp wisdom and dignity on the proceedings, and be looked to as a luminary, which sooner or later will shed its influence.
I should feel pleasure, I confess, in hearing that Vermont is received into the Union upon terms agreeable to all parties. I took the liberty years ago to tell some of the first characters in the State of New York, that sooner or later it would come to that. That the longer it was delayed the terms on their part, would, probably be more difficult—and that the general interest was suffering by the suspence in which the business was held; as the asylem wch. it afforded, was a constant drain from the Army in place of an aid which if offered to afford. And lastly, considering the proximity of it to Canada if they were not with us, they might become a sore thorn in our sides, wch. I verily believe would have been the case if the War had continued. The Western Settlements without good & wise management of them, may be equally troublesome. With sentimts. of the sincerest friendship I am Dear Sir Yr Affect. Servt
Go: Washington
Be so good as to forward the enclosed. Mrs. Washington intended to have sent it by Colo. Carrington, but he did not call here.