piebro/osm-data huggingface dataset:
Pikse (2018-12-11 08:21:52+00:00): Using Google Translate isn't an argument of any sort, and also I can't reproduce what you say. For obvious reasons it only recongnizes "Kiiev", not "Kõjiv" (correct, but rare) if translating between Estonian and Ukrainian and Estonian or Ukrainian.

I don't what you are trying to prove with your Tallinn example or what it has got to do with anything. The difference is that there's probably no language where "smallseaville" for Tallinn would be common, and various name variants besides Kyiv are common for Kiev in Latin-script languages.
user_6110846 (2018-12-11 12:31:46+00:00): Chinese Wikipedia uses the Ukrainian name
Wikipedia in the language of the island of Java (Javanese) uses the Ukrainian name.

For example, recently Javanese Wikipedia at my request changed the name to Ukrainian Kyiv

Your argument is that kIEV is wrong. Abroad, the Ukrainian name is already used.
Return to the beginning of the conversation. I wa provided an example of the use of Kojiv by ordinary Estonians.

Under the aggressive onslaught of Russian books --- Estonia studies the geography of Ukraine in a distorted form.
The geography of Estonia is not independent, it is influenced by Russia.
user_6110846 (2018-12-11 13:01:21+00:00): Please tell us why you do not want to agree with the modern translation that is confirmed?

For example, I explained the reasons why Kojiv is important to me
Pikse (2018-12-11 13:21:49+00:00): This varies language by language. Kyiv in Javanese or whatever you suggest to Chinese may be common or otherwise appropriate in these languages. I can't judge that without being well familiar with these languages.

I haven't told anything about "Kiev" being wrong. There are Latin-script languages where this is the common and conventional name variant (either exonym or regular romanized name variant), and others that use some other name variant (like "Kiiev" in Estonian or "Kiew" in German). I also never argued that "Kõjiv" hasn't been used, I only brought out that compared to "Kiiev" it's used very rarely.

Above I brought an example of Nice (Nizza) in order to broaden your understanding of use of place names in various languages. Here's another example: London's name in languages like Italian, Romanian and Turkish is "Londra", not the "correct" English name "London". Now, rhetorically speaking, in your opinion are users of these languages not independent or who force them to user "wrong" name?

No offence, but you simply aren't an authority on all languages of the world.
user_6110846 (2018-12-11 13:52:16+00:00): Describe how many cartographers in the Estonian community participated in the discussion? How did the Estonian community explain the reason for the refusal not to use the real name Kojiv in principle?
Why is the rule of the argument on the ground for the Estonian community is not an argument?
Pikse (2018-12-11 14:59:47+00:00): In this matter use of place names in a language is really no different from use of other words in a language. Some words (including name variants) catch up, they become common, other words are less common or rare. Languages envolve without language users discussing or voting on particular words. "Kõjiv" is just rare, noone disapproved its use.

I honestly don't know what do you mean by "on the ground" in relation to use of place names in different languages. "On the ground" in sense of OSM principle is not applicable here as it has got nothing to do with almost all languages of the world that are not common in Kiev. Even in relation Ukrainian language use of "on the ground" is dubious, if it relies only on specific use on street signs, instead of examining all Ukrainian language sources. Unless Ukrainian language sources are laid down on streets of Kiev to illustrate a point of course. :)
user_6110846 (2018-12-11 18:58:34+00:00): Where is it written that the on ground rule does not work when translating into a foreign language (in situations of choosing a translation option)?
KKS (2018-12-11 19:38:17+00:00): Pikse, I use Google Trasnslaste only for spelling not for translate.

"are common for Kiev in Latin-script languages." - it became common cuz 80 yrs soviet occupation call it like and 300 yrs before russian empire call it like that. But all his history name of this city was - Kyiv.

If we occupied Tallinn and 80 yrs will call it  "smallseaville" - it became as common on latin-lansguages. But will Estonians change that name for own city? - NO!. so don't change name of our city.
Pikse (2018-12-11 20:23:24+00:00): Poliakoff, I don't know where. Where is it written the opposite? "On the ground" just doesn't make any sense in relation to this matter as already explained above.

KKS, very well, you spelled it, but this still doesn't contribute anything to determining common name variant(s) in Estonian language.

Why would I mind if some languages use other name than "Tallinn"? It's normal that languages occasionally translate names (they use different name variants or entirely different names for the same place). In fact, some languages like Spanish use "Tallin" (one 'n') which may very well be Russian influence, but it's really up to these languages. Also, check examples of Nice (Nizza) and London (Londra) which are not due to occupations or alike.

Or similarly, country name in Ukrainian is "Естонія". I don't know why on Earth would I, but you probably assume I should blame you for changing it into something else than "Єєсті"?
Pikse (2018-12-14 13:04:33+00:00): I sent a letter about this to OSM data working group.
user_6110846 (2018-12-14 19:11:22+00:00): Submit the letter text in DWG


I’m wondering what arguments can lead to breaking the rules on ground
I gave you evidence in the Estonian Wikipedia. According to the Estonian Wikipedia - Kojiv translation is correct
Pikse (2018-12-14 19:26:08+00:00): We handled this above: 1) "on the ground" does not seem to have any relevance on this matter, and 2) "Kõjiv" (not "Kojiv") is correct, but rare compared to "Kiiev" in Estonian.

My letter to DWG concerns several Kiev name variants in Latin-script languages that have been changed in the same manner over the last months.
KKS (2018-12-14 19:39:43+00:00): Pikse, yep... it should be "Еесті". Cuz we must call it like locals do. Common this or not it's doesn't matter. People in massive amounts could be wrong.

More likeable example is Finland or Suomi , most of people really call it like natives do.

You can make a small village in Eesti and name it Kiev. But capital of Ukraine on a river Dnirpo  called - Kyiv.
Pikse (2018-12-14 20:01:41+00:00): Well, in reality, as also shown by current use of OSM tags, pretty much no other language than Estonian uses "Eesti" and pretty much no other language than Finnish uses "Suomi". So obviously "on the ground" has limits.

If Ukrainian users decide to rename countries and other places in their language on OSM then good luck with it, but don't expect users of other languages to come along with this experiment.
user_6110846 (2018-12-15 08:35:47+00:00): For our project the main thing:
--- this information must be verified
----- match on ground

Sir, I spoke with the Estonian community. Only one person responded. I concluded that Estonians do not care what kind of translation.
I wonder why you personally ignore my request to create an extensive discussion?
Why do you personally alone want to decide everything for the community of countries ?
Why didn’t you ask the countries ’countries - their personal attitude to the Kyiv translation

For our project the main thing:
--- this information must be verified
----- match on ground

Sir, I spoke with the Estonian community. Only one person responded. I concluded that Estonians do not care what kind of translation.
I wonder why you personally ignore my request to create an extensive discussion?
Why do you personally alone want to decide everything for the community?
Why didn’t you ask the countries ’communities  - their personal attitude to the Kyiv translation

For our project the main thing:
--- this information must be verified
----- match on ground

Sir, I spoke with the Estonian community. Only one person responded. I concluded that Estonians do not care what kind of translation.
I wonder why you personally ignore my request to create an extensive discussion?

Why do you personally alone want to decide everything for the community?
Why didn’t you ask the countries ’associations - their personal attitude to the Kyiv translation

Write the translation to which languages ​​you don’t like?
provide a copy of the letter in DWG - it was honest and decent.
Pikse (2018-12-15 09:21:27+00:00): I managed to find this 3 days old response from ee-talk mail list and I must say that "Estonians do not care" is a heavy distortion of this response. This response clearly states that we should stick to "Kiiev" and not use "Kõjiv" until language tradition has changed.

Blaming me for not creating extensive discussion makes little sense while in the first place it was you who personally decided to change status quo regarding several Latin-script languages, not only Estonian.

Let's try to keep this discussion constructive and refrain from spam tactics (you just copied your reply three times in a row). Merely repeating claims that were already parried doesn't contribute to anything either.

My letter to DWG is a summary of this discussion. If it's deemed necessary then DWG has my permission to copy it here.
user_6110846 (2018-12-15 11:35:05+00:00): Reak You have no arguments at all Your argument is my personal desire to do only how I want
It's go


The reaction of only 1 person is the reaction of the whole community.

In addition, that table is deceiving when it says that there is no Kyiv translation in European languages.
For example, there is a decree of the Italian government in which Kyiv is used.
senato.it/japp/bgt/showdoc/frame.jsp?tipodoc=Resaula&leg=13&id=00006825&part=doc_dc-ressten_rs-gentit_cem-intervento_presidente&parse=no


It says that Estonians don't care what kind of translation, this topic is not interesting for them.
In addition, 1 person in that session provided a table with errors.
There, for example, an ancient Chinese translation was written. The Chinese have long been using the translation of Jifu, that is, kYIV
Pikse (2018-12-15 12:23:08+00:00): Well, now you have feedback from two Estonian-language users (me and user from mail list). You didn't like what the other used said and you decided to lie about his response ("Estonians don't care") hoping that noone finds out. Having been caught using deceitful manners like this in my opinion is enough reason why you should back off from this subject now.

You apparently refer to place name database KNAB. Besides Estonian name variants It only intends to offer a little selection of non-Estonian name variants, including less common ones and historical ones. So even if Chinese name over there is uncommon (I don't know it it is, I obviously can't take your word for it), then it still isn't wrong. Some rare uses of "Kyiv" in some Latin-script languages does not change the fact that it isn't common. You can easily google language-specific results and check different language Wikipedias to check that.
user_6110846 (2018-12-15 13:07:08+00:00): Show me the Openstreetmap rule in which it is written that between several versions - we only choose the most used one.

There is no such rule, I'm sure. The decision to choose a translation is simply the result of communication. I gave you all the arguments for the Ukrainian name.
You must understand the choice of translating the name of the city - this is a reflection of the geopolitical reality
 Kiiev Kiev is a name written in Moscow when Ukraine was part of Russia.

Now Ukraine is de facto and de jure and geopolitically completely independent of Russia
Our project is built on the display of reality
So new translations are the reality mapping - complete independence from Russia
You can come to Kyiv and make sure Kyiv is completely independent of Russia.
Therefore, the translation complies with all the rules of the Openstreetmap project.

Kyiv's translation is as alternative in wikipedia - this is enough
user_6110846 (2018-12-15 13:12:24+00:00): There is a modern translation and it is correct - this is Kyiv
Foreigners need to get used to the real names of Ukrainian cities.
Our project reflects reality. Our project cannot break the ground rule for the sake of the desire of one cartographer.
Need a single solution. Please note - at the moment only you defend the translation Kiev in this discussion.
Pikse (2018-12-15 14:25:31+00:00): There indeed doesn't seem to be a certain rule about when to use which name variant. Neither is there a weird OSM rule you suggest that all foreign languages can use only names variants that are approved at location of given place. Using common name approach however is supported by status quo and general practise on OSM, at least for languages regarding which "on the ground" principle is irrelevant (i.e. Latin-script languages in this case).

No, as you very well know I'm not the only one who advocates using name variants that are actually used in languages. As already pointed out, you got response from another Estonian user who said we should stick to "Kiiev", at least for now. Also, another German user here already restored their their name variant "Kiew" that had been messed up in similar manner lately.

I now looked at English Wikipedia talk page for "Kiev". Issue there is similar: some Ukrainians occasionally try to suggest that title "Kiev" is wrong. The difference between OSM and Wikipedia is that it isn't that simple to do weird changes on Wikipedia without anyone noticing. What you do here is, I quote from Wikipedia talk, "continuation of the Ukrainian-Russian conflict in the sphere of toponymy". This is just silly as names in Latin-script langauges have nothing to do with this conflict. If you feel too strongly about the subject, so that you end up politicizing things and forget that the idea was to provide quality data, then you should really let other people handle the subject.
user_6110846 (2018-12-15 14:40:54+00:00): Kiev is the Russian occupation name of the Ukrainian city written in Moscow and tucked into the tongues.

About the German Kyjiw - - I did not search for arguments.
In the near future I will do this.
Ukraine is an independent state and therefore there will be no Russian occupational nicknames
On the basis of the on ground rule, Ukrainian cartographers will always change to Ukrainian kyiv

What really uses abroad is not interesting for us.
sooner or later, the onslaught of Ukrainians will change the situation - and Kiev will be forgotten about the translation.
For DWG, the main thing is the confirmation of information (translation kyiv confirmed) and compliance with the rules on ground
All these criteria translation Kyiv meets.


Now the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine is writing official letters to international agencies with a request to use the Kyiv translation.
For example, the international news agency BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/search?q=Kyiv+ is the fact of using Kyiv on an equal footing with the Russian occupational nonsense Kiev
Pikse (2018-12-15 15:24:00+00:00): Your still not even trying to make any sense with your "on the ground" claims. It's probably very hard, if not impossible, to find signs in French, signs in Estonian, signs in Dutch, signs in German etc. in Kiev.

Note that international use (e.g. use by international organizations) is one thing and use in particular languages of the world is another thing. International organizations may very well already use "Kyiv", e.g. United Nations that has approved Ukrainian national romanization. Particular languages how ever have their own conventions.

In relation to international usage and in attempt to bring this discussion back on track I've constructive note: there's "int_name" key that is currently not used for Kiev label node. It'd probably make sense to provide "Kyiv" as value for this key. So "Kyiv" can be preserved even if most Latin-script languages (including English) don't use it as common name.
user_6110846 (2018-12-15 17:04:26+00:00): Before continuing our conversation, I ask you to remember what
kIEV - is russian ocupational nickname
And to treat as  ocupational nickname which Russian expressed contempt for the Ukrainian people

For example, Michelinusch in the French version of Kiev uses Kyiv Also Kyiv is in the discussions of the French Wikipedia

Also, if you search in wikipedia discussions, there is a translation of Kyiv in other languages
Some European Wikipedia with arrogance and contempt reacted to the Ukrainian request and at the very beginning blocked the development of the discussion.
But this is not the reason to write only Kiev in Openstreetmap.

If there is no Kyiv translation in Wikipedia, it still doesn’t say anything.

I advise you to dial Kyiv in the Internet search engines and tick off: French then other languages ​​- you will find Kyiv in the language you need

Some Wikipedia's contempt for this topic is not a reason to use a Russian occupational nickname that violates the rule on ground.
Pikse (2018-12-15 17:34:00+00:00): I'm sorry, but you are still not making any sense. I conclude that you have barely any knowledge of Latin-script languages that you are trying to deal with if you bluntly label their various traditonal names with long histories as "russian ocupational nickname".
KKS (2018-12-16 02:37:30+00:00): Pikse, are this two places should be named with same name on Estonian?
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/275380300
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/421866

You didn't find any difference?
KKS (2018-12-16 02:41:38+00:00): BTW  Pikse how you name group of 3 countries? Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania? 
in russian manner - "lands before Baltic sea" or like smarter rest of the world - "Baltic countries" ?

to which group do you belong to?
Pikse (2018-12-16 09:54:01+00:00): KSS, no, different. Capital of Ukraine is Kiiev and place in Russia is Kiev. First is an exonym in Estonian and second is written in Russian-Estonian transcription (as already pointed out above).

Literally it's "Baltic countries" in Estonian. Which however does not mean that this name is more Estonian or local than, say, Kiiev. This particular name is probably of German or Latin origin. In Estonian there are also many other conventional place names that come from some wide-spread (non-local) language and for which there is no intention to change them (e.g. Kairo or Bangkok).
user_6110846 (2018-12-16 10:45:57+00:00): The capital of Ukraine is about Kyiv or Kojiv (in Estonian)

I officially ask the Ukrainian community not to enter into any discussions with Pikse
Pikse came here to control the Ukrainians

Discussion with the Ukrainian community is over.
Reason for ending the discussion: you use the abusive Russian occupation name Kiev Kiiev
Ukraine has no city at all Kiiev Kiev
Goodbye . When you learn the word Kyiv, then come
Pikse (2018-12-16 11:03:49+00:00): Poliakoff, repeating this all over again unfortunately does not make it true. It's only you who's trying to control other people all over the world (their languages that you don't even know and that has pretty much nothing to do with Ukrainians).
user_6110846 (2018-12-16 14:15:16+00:00): Kiev is a Russian occupational nickname. Communicating with the Ukrainians - you must understand this

In 1991, the city of Kyiv was liberated from the Russian-Soviet occupation due to the liquidation of the USSR.

Moscow’s attempt to return Kyiv to a Russian prison failed due to Euromaidan and the resilience and masculinity of the Ukrainian volunteer soldiers. Ukraine has proved to the world community that it will not return to the Russian geopolitical prison.
 
It is for these reasons that the most well-known cartographic Internet services Google Maps Bing Hero.wego.com Yandex ( INTERNATIONAL VERSION  )Michelin.com corrected as a show of respect on Kyiv

When you come to talk about the Ukrainian object, you need to be able to listen and perceive the arguments of the people, in the territory of which the object is located.
user_6110846 (2018-12-16 14:16:33+00:00): Kiev is a Russian occupational nickname. Communicating with the Ukrainians - you must understand this

In 1991, the city of Kyiv was liberated from the Russian-Soviet occupation due to the liquidation of the USSR.

Moscow’s attempt to return Kyiv to a Russian prison failed due to Euromaidan and the resilience and masculinity of the Ukrainian volunteer soldiers. Ukraine has proved to the world community that it will not return to the Russian geopolitical prison.
 
It is for these reasons that the most well-known cartographic Internet services Google Google Maps Bing Hero.wego.com Michelin.com corrected as a show of respect on kyiv

When you come to talk about the Ukrainian object, you need to be able to listen and perceive the arguments of the people, in the territory of which the object is located.
SomeoneElse (2018-12-16 14:28:46+00:00): @Poliakoff Mykhailo Comments like the one that you have just made (and a number of others you've made on this changeset) have no place in OSM.  OSM is not the place to make your political points, however much people may sympathise with the situation that Ukraine and Ukrainians now find themselves in.
SomeoneElse (2018-12-16 14:43:45+00:00): @Poliakoff Mykhailo You do get to decide, based on on-the-ground signage, what the name for Kyiv is in Ukrainian.  You don't get to decide what name it is usually referred to as in other languages, unless you can find evidence for it in that language.  It may well be that those other languages will adapt to using Kyiv rather than Kiev over time, just as has happened with other former "occupation names" elsewhere such as Calcutta/Kolkata .  If you believe that this has actually happened, then I'd suggest that you'd need to find some evidence _in Estonian_ of Kyiv being used rather than Kiev.  I'd start by looking for locally-produced tourist information leaflets which hopefully will be available under a licence suitable for use in OSM (wikipedia, alas, is not).
Please try and engage positively with other mappers.  Saying that they need to "get used to" things will not help your cause, either on this individual issue or any wider ones.
user_6110846 (2018-12-16 15:37:48+00:00): If we now choose the fake name Kiiev - then we will break two rule-concept of the project on ground
The real name of the Ukrainian capital is alternative to viikpediyah and this is enough

For example, the Italian translation was used in the Italian government and that is enough that in name: it was Kyiv (link to the site of the Italian senate senato.it / ........... is in the comment to the edit

French translation is in the discussions in the French Wikipedia, there are also examples of real use.
If foreigners are brought up the habit of using fake Ukrainian names (the same Kyiv)

 - then this is not a reason to break the rule on ground. The goal of our project is to display real information on the ground and not to distort it so that for the convenience of someone
KKS (2018-12-16 22:39:21+00:00): Бггг палковнік Баріс не паліться.

Kiev - it's a village in russia