piebro/osm-data huggingface dataset:
mavl (2017-09-13 04:37:10+00:00):   > Здесь говорится о соглашении 2009 года...  
  
LLlypuk82, thank you very much for it.  
  
  > in disputed areas, the name that must appear is the one on the sign  
  
See also [http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes]  
  
Belarus is the stable country. There is a government. There are two official languages. The local community can use any language or use an own convention for "name" tags. There is so local convention.  
  
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Belarus:Map_languages  
  
  > What will you propose for situation when road signs have bilingual (or more) inscriptions?  
  
name=<any name from local convention>  
name:be=<belorussian name>  
name:ru=<russian name>  
inscription=<real text from sign>  
  
Vladimir Marshinin  
Data Working Group
Георгий Ильин (2017-09-13 06:32:59+00:00): A disputed area it is not necessarily an area where there is an ongoing war or that is politically unstable. 
A disputed area in OSM is also an area where not everyone agrees on the language that should be displayed, and it is the case of Belarus. It is also the case of some regions in stable countries (ex.: Belgium, a country I know very well).
Anyway, the convention showed above (in Russian-only) is still a contradiction of OSM's main rule regarding names, which was cited a couple of times already. (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names 
"name	User defined	Node Way Area	The common default name. (Note: For disputed areas, please use the name as displayed on, e.g., street signs for the name tag. Put all alternatives into either localized name tags (e.g., name:tr/name:el) or the variants (e.g., loc_name/old_name/alt_name). Thank you.)"
That is the main rule, and any local agreement that does not abide by the main rule is null and void. This is how it works in law and in every single domain.
In Belarus, as you can see in this long discussion, a majority of people disagree with this "convention" and so does both the Belarusian law *and* the OSM main rule. I'm afraid this convention needs to be change as it infringes the main name rule.  Belarus *is* and has *always* been a linguistically disputed area, so following that, the name that must appear is the one on the sign, no matter the language.And then, the matter will be resolved.
We already proposed our solutions on this matter. If some unpredictable issues arise, solutions will be found.
Thank you for your attention
Jay May (2017-09-13 06:54:52+00:00): Wow guys, this discussion is really active :D As I'm not getting the notifications on my email, I am always amazed when I enter this thread.
Let us be clear once again (sorry if I repeat what was written a couple of times):
a) As a couple of us pointed out, the agreement shown above violates the main rule. Thus, from the very beginning the initial agreement is null and void. Just as in law.
b) Moreover, the agreement (as it was pointed out by 2 users) violates the Belarusian law. Do we want OSM to get forbidden in Belarus? I don't because I use it while being there, and several apps do.
c) Our aim is to show the reality on-spot. Not to be a sort of Belarusian Jeanne d'Arc and "kick out Russian(s) out of Belarus". (like she said about "kicking out Englishmen from France") :D And as someone wrote before (I think it was Georgij or perhaps myself?), those who are afraid that Belarusization (in reality "Realisticallyzation :D") will make the Russian language die in Belarus have nothing to be afraid about:
1) Nobody wants to erase the Russian names totally. And we do all agree on that. The Russian toponyms will be shown anyway for those who use those OSM-based apps in Russian, but along with the original name appearing on-spot.
2) Belarus is the only former USSR country where the use of Russian has increased. That is a matter of fact. However, all toponyms are in Belarusian and neither Шурик82, neither Jaugenka, neither Georgij, neithe Vladimir, neither 4004, neither Ambush, neither Mykhailo, neither mOlind and neither I will change that, whatever is our perception on the Belarusian and Russian languages. The only one who can change that is Mr.Alexander Lukashenka, and I think it is the last thing he worries about despite his love for Russian language.

We need to rely on facts. That is why we are Openstreetmap: to highlight facts, make them visible to everyone and thus help people around the world.And that is our strength over our competitors like Google or Yandex.
Otherwise, taking our time (for which nobody pays us) to improve OSM is useless because we are doing only a half-good job, whether we are pro-change or anti-change.
Any issues will be resolved. From my professional  history I know how transitions are difficult, but I also know that every issue has its own solution(s).
Георгий Ильин (2017-09-13 07:36:34+00:00): Yes )))) We are active ))) But I find it is not fair that 2 people are slowing the whole process while we had been discussing these matters for months and we had agreed on making the Belarus map realistic. To me they can be helpful on the technical part, but overall the decision has been made and it is compliant with the OSM main rule and with the Belarusian laws.So the Russian version of the convention must be changed to make it compliant and as I told you - Belarus is a disputed area. So the ground rule automatically applies even without discussion.
user_6110846 (2017-09-13 08:15:23+00:00): A result of our discussion is checking for durability of основообразующего principle of project of on ground/ Ancient римляны to our era created wisdom integrity is stopped up in that . A law is severe, but it is a law. In the original of dura lex sed lex. On the observance of rules all is built . If governed /laws stop / to be observed it results in anarchy and destruction. In fact lately horrors of international wars of редагирований more less became silent . Accepting a not faithful decision we can again dip a project in the ocean depth of wars of редагирований . So during globalization about the results of our discussion it will know to all associations. Associations that buried the ax of war of corrections can dig out him . We with you persons of ripe years. When we come on work the rules of behavior, of instruction of actions are told us in one or another situations, time when we must leave or come on work . To us these rules not always are pleasant, but we observe, them in fact we do not want to lose work or have financial approvals as privation of earnings. Religious people observe or try a vault governed described in religious treatises and books because are afraid that they will be punished by God at each it. 
In understanding of man with the legal thinking the that vault of rules of "legal" force / of force of action/ does not have from the moment of his acceptance .  In connection with that his points violate on ground. He from the moment of acceptance cheapened itself on 100 percents and deserved no respect. In him there is no компромиса aside соблюдениия on ground. His acceptance underlaid a time, bomb that wound or late will explode and consequences will be negative. That is why than before Vault of Rules in form 2009 will become history, that no longer needs to be repeated подчеркую to nobody so much the better for existence of this project and for disentangling of consequences in Belorussia.This problem as spring that, than squeeze longer - the stronger / badly/ there will be a return
4004 (2017-09-13 08:36:39+00:00): >Belarus is the only former USSR country where the use of Russian has increased. That is a matter of fact. However, all toponyms are in Belarusian
This is (perhaps sadly) not always the case. If you transit/travel through Belarus you might get the impression that Belarusian is indeed used universally, however this is not true. Whether this is because local law permits names/addr in 2 languages, or because nobody really controls it properly is another matter.
Due to this, irregularities/errors will appear on the map, with a chaotic mix of rus/bel names, leading to a (perceived) decrease in map quality, consistency and, most notably, challenges for existing data users.
Switching to Belarusian yielded such challenges for Google/Apple, with search errors and misspelling from what I've seen.
While mapping Belarus in Belarusian is the logical and right thing to do, it lags behind, whether due to community makeup or lack of interest. 
I would propose creating a task group to first of all assess the scale and viability of ru->be switch. Once the requirements are somewhat set, the community can see how much is done and needs doing. 
In the meantime, the current scheme is to be left in place. 
This way we can at least shorten and smooth out the transition period.
Did anyone elevate this argument btw?
Jay May (2017-09-13 09:04:17+00:00): @4004: the majority of us agreed on switching the name tag to Belarusian and to check whether the name:ru tag is filled. This is for toponyms, monuments, and administrative levels (when you travel into Belarus), you see clearly written "Мінская воблсасць" and not "Минская область", for instance.
We will not change commercial names nor the administration building names.
However, dear 4004, we the addr. tag is an issue on which we must discuss together and creating a task group on such technical matters is a good idea I believe.
P.S.: the Russian version of the convention mentioned above by Шурик leaves the door open for language switches: "В результате обсуждения пришли к решению, что названия в тегах name пишутся ТОЛЬКО на русском языке, поскольку так исторически сложилось, и русскоязычных источников данных, пользователей и участников проекта очевидно больше, чем белорусскоязычных. Если будет принято решение перейти на использование белорусского языка в качестве основного, содержимое тегов name будет скопировано в name:ru (при его отсутствии), а name:be --- в name автоматически."
4004 (2017-09-13 09:29:10+00:00): @Jay May
>for toponyms, monuments, and administrative levels
This should work fine for admin levels (100% bilingual I believe). Toponyms will need some work (last figure I've seen was around 70%?), while monuments is debatable, but alas.
Indeed, at the time the convention was agreed there was much less progress on be naming, and working towards it was and remains one of the goals of the local community (one would think).
user_6110846 (2017-09-13 10:09:15+00:00): @4004 Monuments are low-level edits. We are now discussing the high-level amendments-human settlements. In Ukraine, monuments of Soviet time survived also in Russian. But they did not become a hindrance to ukrainization even in the Russian-speaking territories of Ukraine. Monuments, I guess not so much, that they have become a hindrance to correcting violations on ground in the names of human settlements.

My opponents in a quiet, unobtrusive mode of doing with the Belarusian language is a language which is not a place in the 21st century, because the modern world is built on the digital divide. Instead of having to make the language of technocratic, we relive the new Third Technic Revolution
The Belarusian language has only one new gadget for the letter "ў". The rest of the letters in the Cyrillic alphabet have proven the absence of problems. The letter "ў" exists in the Cyrillic character gadget in the gadgets character moved from the computer through the modifications. For example the Android version Osmand has no problems with languages. It happens in all languages to search and easily switch to another language. For general technical difficulties then they refuted in this discussion.
I I sat down in the search engines of the Internet. Supporters of the Belarusian keyboard and dialling of the texts in this language is nothing to worry. Belarusian keyboard there are to download and install on the phone even for unpopular models of smartphones.
Thus, if there are gadgets Belarusian keyboard with searching and with the letter "ў" there is generally no problem.

There is such a factor in the tourist, arrived in another country is the English language. Many tourists in a foreign country seeking settlements through English.
I do not understand why the position on tourism, visit/search/settlements in Belarus is kept only on Russian turistah of the countries of the Socialist camp. Why go Division on the tourists highest grade/Russian-speaking countries of the Socialist camp and the low grade/holidaymakers, for which the same Cyrillic characters perceive as we are Georgian, Armenian characters-that is absolutely one hundred percent that's confusing. Belarus is not North Korea, and there is no ban tourists from countries not included in the countries of the Socialist camp. If the tourist English matches the sign of the Belarusian on the road with the information of the Belarusian on a map — it simply will decide the route.
Jay May (2017-09-13 10:17:37+00:00): @Poliakoff Mykhailo - Your point is good. You mention the ў, it is usually automatically transliterated automatically into "y" instead of "ŭ" when you switch to another language than Russian. This is why it is extremely important not to forget to transliterate into Latin in the int_name tag ("Магілёў" will automatically appear as "Magiley" if we don't do that. So people must remember to check whethre the int_name tag is filled and appears as "Mahilioŭ"), The vast majority of locality names are already transliterated into Łacinka, but it is not the case of lakes, monuments and other infrastructure.
Your point on the Ukraine transition is good. Recently I've had a look into some roads in Ukraine and I noticed toponyms are in Ukrainian, but some monuments are left in Russian. I think it would look more or less the same on the Belarusian side.
4004 (2017-09-13 10:31:17+00:00): It certainly will look similar, at least at first.
@Poliakoff Mykhailo if we are talking technical points now, such a switch would introduce challenges not only for those without a "ў"-supporting keyboard, but also those confused by 2 languages used side-by-side in similar contexts, be it administrative buildings or addr.
Regarding your tourism point, it is more of a question to tourism authorities and businesses. While some are kinda trying to insert some Belarusian here and there, it is mostly done as a "local peculiarity" type of thing, rather than out of one's national identity realisation. Most of their business comes from Russians/russian speakers, so I can't really blame them. This is what happens when you only focus on one market.
Jay May (2017-09-13 11:41:32+00:00): @4004 Anyway, nobody is trying to Belarusize business names ;) And about monuments, I had included it for 2 reasons:
- they are always shown in Belarusian on roadsigns
- On those monuments you usually have some sign with the word "каштоўнасць" ("monument" if I'm not mistaken) with a short explanation. 
However, Belarusicizing some typical communist monuments "слава героям" is not necessary IMO. Especially given the fact they are not indicated on roadsigns.
Now my essential question is: should we continue changing manually those toponyms? Or will that be an automatic process?
molind (2017-09-13 12:32:52+00:00): I vote for automatic process. It's easy to break things when manually changing ways and relations.
Jay May (2017-09-13 12:35:39+00:00): Given what mOlind just mentioned, I also vote for an automatic process.
4004 (2017-09-13 13:46:21+00:00): @Jay May I believe you might've mixed up monuments (which include Lenin statues and the like) with historical/touristy places, like castles etc. Different things, certainly the historical pois (especially the important/popular ones) would usually have a name:be as well.
Regarding the switch, automated would be easier, faster and less error-prone, I assume. Needs to be checked anyway
Jay May (2017-09-13 13:52:19+00:00): Proofreading is always easier than reading ;) So it is a good solution to make it automatically and switch. Especially that people like Georgij or me are not proficient in some OSM matters yet (like that addr tag)
user_6110846 (2017-09-13 14:14:03+00:00): I'm for the automatic

Then 2-3 days and on the map will be the Belarusian language. When it appears you will be able to click through all the settlements. To correct to the Belarusian language name: prefix addr: district addr province Also I ask to approve the name tag: en where the name of objects in English is duplicated on the popular 1965 abroad standard. It is different from the Belarusian dress. Look I've previously dialed maps of Belarus in English and French - there are 80 percent of the cards with the 1965 standard.


The principle of on ground in terms of the real use of the name in another language can not be rejected. The map in English will be latin. My suggestion will only help with the search.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/25076922
Jay May (2017-09-13 14:16:49+00:00): My opinion is that the English tag in that standard would be O.K., but the int_name tag should be in Belarusian Łacinka.
user_6110846 (2017-09-13 15:33:07+00:00): The result should be reported on the page of the communities of neighboring countries and DWG.
4004 (2017-09-14 08:30:08+00:00): a forum topic needs to be started on this, and approval from DWG would be nice, before doing anything
4004 (2017-09-14 09:03:56+00:00): int_name is already filed correctly, in accordance with http://www.pravo.by/pdf/2007-159/2007-159%28027-028%29.pdf
Jay May (2017-09-14 09:59:23+00:00): O.K.guys. As soon as you start, please provide the link
user_6110846 (2017-09-14 11:13:21+00:00): I will finalize now the Khotsinsk raion then along the border with the Russian Federation, then the area to the north of the Khotsinsk raion.
4004 (2017-09-14 11:23:46+00:00): I would propose we wait until there is an agreement on how and when to proceed, and do not attempt anything before that
user_6110846 (2017-09-14 11:26:40+00:00): how to do the proposed example http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/25076922
4004 (2017-09-14 11:45:47+00:00): aren't you rushing a bit Mykhailo? No agreement has been reached, no DWG approval granted, and it was supposed to be centralized and auto, no "regional tests"
user_6110846 (2017-09-14 12:29:56+00:00): This format I provided earlier in this discussion. Therefore, we are informed. If something causes you suspicion, express ideas.
Ambush (2017-09-14 12:34:14+00:00): At the ByOSM Telegram chat we decided to have a meeting to discuss all the technical details, tools and other before doing any automated changes.
Welcome everyone who wants to join this discussion, t.me/byosm
4004 (2017-09-14 12:35:08+00:00): "We" might be informed, but this is not enough to start implementing changes, and certainly not by doing it on your own in one place.
"Мы" тут, может быть, и в курсе, но этого недостаточно, чтобы начинать что-то менять. И уж точно не стоит менять как вы это сейчас предложили, по одному, написав только здесь, и в одном дальнем месте карты.
4004 (2017-09-14 12:51:47+00:00): @Ambush could the osm forum be a better place?
LLlypuk82 (2017-09-14 12:53:16+00:00): You are welcome http://openstreetmap.by/
4004 (2017-09-14 12:57:09+00:00): that's the renderer that uses name:be if it exists
yaugenka (2017-09-15 00:41:52+00:00): Until it is completely agreed to change the current local convention, it must be observed! All changes have been reverted.
Георгий Ильин (2017-09-15 06:26:42+00:00): Jaugenka, I've just gone through the threads of various discussions this morning and you wrote "ничего не трогаем" ("we don't touch anything"). Thus, nobody allowed you to revert any changes, especially given the fact other multilingual names and wikipedia data have been added. Right now, by reverting changes the majority of us agreed on anyway, you are vandalizing everyone's work. I fully understand you and Шурик82 are against the changes, and I respect that. But that gives you no right to sabotage everyone's work. Please re-revert those changes.
Jay May (2017-09-15 06:33:21+00:00): Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?????????????????? Jauhenka deleted all the changes we had all made from the very beginning! As you said Georgij, multilingual changes, but even road changes! 
I was Jauhenka was a reasonable person, but I'm afraid what one of the guys told me is right: he is just trying to gain time to revert all the changes. Are you conscious, Jauhenka, under such conditions you can get banned for vandalizing?
yaugenka (2017-09-15 07:45:59+00:00): Fist of all, all of you were warned several times in this thread not to make any changes while the discussion is going on. Secondly, for now only renamings of settlements and admin boundaries have been reverted. I'm yet to analyse what else you have renamed.
molind (2017-09-15 07:49:00+00:00): Вот только не надо брать на себя святую миссию все откатывать. Это сильно пахнет вандализмом и может закончится баном. Я не оправдываю тех, кто полез переименовывать что под руку попадется, но и откаты чужой работы - это крайнее средство.
molind (2017-09-15 07:54:17+00:00): Как я вижу ситуацию на настоящий момент: Переименование будет. Будет по всей стране и в автоматизированном режиме. Ни одно название на русском не пострадает. Все будет сохранено в name:ru. Адресный граф так же будет сохранен, т.к. все addr:street и addr:place будут изменены на обновленный name. Часть улиц, для которых пока нету переводов будут оставлены на русском, до тех пор, пока перевод не появится.
molind (2017-09-15 07:55:03+00:00): Кто очень хочет начать переименовывать - вносите name:be, где их нету. Они не потеряются и будут использованы в последующем для name.
Jay May (2017-09-15 08:58:28+00:00): @yaugenka: O.K. There is an enormous confusion here with people asking to change manually while people discuss about changing automatically, people asking to wait for the automatic change, and people who don't want any change. Nevertheless, that doesn't change the fact that no one gave you the authorization to revert those changes (unless, of course, if someone totally deleted the name:ru tag, with what we all agree)
@mOlind: O.K. This means we need to check *every single toponym* anyway because I noticed (although it is a minority) that sometimes the tag name:ru or the tag name:be is missing.
Is there any way to have a global view of those missing tags name:be and name:ru?
4004 (2017-09-15 09:45:17+00:00): >Кто очень хочет начать переименовывать - вносите name:be, где их нету. Они не потеряются и будут использованы в последующем для name
+1 to that (your app is nice btw).
Translation: those who want to start the switch straight away - start by filling in name:be where it doesn't exist or is empty. They'll be kept in place and used for the future switch.
Komяpa once provided a search result for this query:
gis=# select count(distinct name), count(distinct tags->'name:be') from (select name, tags from planet_osm_point union all select name, tags from planet_osm_line union all select name, tags from planet_osm_polygon) a;
to compare name:ru and be coverage, I suppose a similar query can be used to check untranslated placed, @Jay May
4004 (2017-09-15 10:07:33+00:00): Oh, and here is a translation checker
http://latlon.org/~alex73/vulicy.html
user_6110846 (2017-09-15 14:32:59+00:00): 4004 : перестаньте пользуясь что не все грамотньіе технически вводить людей в заблуждение. Указанньіе на офруме проблемі являются вьідуманньіми лично Вами. Поповоду отсуствия реакции о просьбе 5 часов назад --- то предоставьте нам таблицу название и второй столбик что искать /куда ввести /автоматическую работу мьі сделаем потихоньку . По поводу ссьілки с попереднього повідомлення  то я ничего не понял. Заглянул в Telegram - но и после  попередня ссылка осталась для меня загадкой  .
4004 (2017-09-15 14:43:00+00:00): @Poliakoff Mykhailo: 
вы меня с кем то путаете? я никого в заблуждение не ввожу, и уж точно ничего не придумываю. 
последняя ссылка, которую я тут привел - ближе всего, из того, о чем я знаю, к вашим запросам "предоставьте нам таблицу название и второй столбик что искать /куда ввести", свой валидатор я писать не буду
user_6110846 (2017-09-15 15:34:59+00:00): а как делаем -- оставляем name:be-tarask и дублируем в name:be? Или name be-tarask переделываем в name be. при этом надо учитыват ь что здесь одинаково то ест ька кбы транслитерация а согласно вики-правила о теге name - избегайте транслитерацию