What Old Depositions Say About Trump Talking to Mueller
Sometime soon   President Trump  is likely to be deposed by Special Counsel Robert Mueller and  his  team. Several outlets  beginning with NBC News on Monday  report that  Trump âs lawyers are negotiating with Mueller about  the president  testifying under oath  though Mueller has made no formal request so far. The specific importance of such a deposition is hard to judge.  Trump âs lawyers  who also appear to have leaked word of the discussions to the press  present it as a sign that Mueller is nearing the end of his investigation  though they have previously  and incorrectly  predicted the probe would be over by Thanksgiving or Christmas. The New York Times reports that Mueller seems interested in topics that would imply more of a focus on the possibility of obstruction of justice than on collusion with Russia during the campaign  but that is somewhat speculative. Related Story The Art of the Swindle Assuming the deposition occurs   Trump  will make political history as only the fifth sitting president to be deposed  following in the footsteps of Ulysses Grant  Gerald Ford  Jimmy Carter  and  most consequentially Bill Clintonâwhose lie about not having a sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky in a 1998 deposition led to his impeachment. For  Trump   however  depositions are familiar territory. In 2012  he said during a deposition that he had done more than 100 over the course of his career. Transcripts  and in one case video  of three depositions taken over the last decade provide a fascinating look into how the prolifically dissembling president behaves when he is under oath.  The Donald Trump who emerges from these depositions  is the same but different from the one familiar to Americans today.  He  is just as apt to bluster and braggadocio  and sometimes peevish. But within the confines of conference rooms and offices   he  is calmer  more restrained  and more deliberate than  his  public persona  and with the tether of  his  oath holding  him  back  often acknowledges when  he  is wrong or has misrepresented things in the past.
 Trumpâs  tendency toward inflating thingsâhis net worth  his intellectual prowess  his actionsâhas become a defining characteristic of his career in politics  as it was in his career in business. Fact-checkers have made tallying the lies and untruths that the president delivers nearly a competitive sport. As a result  itâs striking to see  Trump  in a setting where  he  is obliged to tell the truth  under penalty of law. For example   Trump  is involved in litigation against Geoffrey Zakarian  a chef who had signed a lease to open a restaurant in  Trumpâs  hotel in D.C.  but pulled out in response to inflammatory comments that  Trump  made as a presidential candidate. During the deposition  an attorney read  Trump  a document boasting  â Mr. Trump  is personally involved in everything that  his  name represents. This commitment has made  him  the preeminent developer of quality real estate known around the world  and in all  his  endeavors the  Trump  gold standard is apparent.â Is that true  she asked?  Trump : Yes. Q: And when it says that youâre personally involved in everything that your name represents  what does that mean  that your name represents?  Trump : Well  I think that  you know  I do things that donât necessarily have my name on it. But Iâm involved with  when we put our name on a hotel such as this one which is very important  Iâm very much involved in the details. In fact  that was not true  as  Trump  acknowledged a few minutes later: Q: Did you review the lease at all before you signed it? Trump: No. Q: So did you have any understanding when you signed the lease as to what your rights were relative to getting damages against the tenant in the event of a default by the tenant?  Trump : No. When I signed the lease  you know  my son said we have the lease  so I signed the lease. But  really  they knew it much better than I did. I wasnât involved in the lease. I signed it  but I wasnât involved in it. He added  âI signed hundreds  much more than that. But I donât generally review them. I have somebody thatâwhether itâs an executive or in this case one of my children  you know  I rely on people to do these things. Including lawyers that Iâve had for many years  like [ Trump  Organization general counsel Alan] Garten or somebody. So I relyâso I very rarely get too involved in it.â
When he was caught exaggerating the speed of completion of the hotel project   Trump  simply pretended  he  hadnât. âWeâre substantially ahead of schedule â  he  insisted  even as the lawyer asked (and received an answer) to a question about when the timeline for opening had moved back from 2015 to 2016. As The Washington Post noted in a 2016 piece  Trumpâs tendency to back off  his  most obviously fake statements was especially pronounced in a December 2007 deposition.  Trump  had sued the journalist and author Tim OâBrien  who had written a book saying  Trumpâs  net worth was far less than the billions  he  claimed.  Trump  sued OâBrien for libel and defamation. The Post found 30 occasions in that deposition alone where  Trump  admitted to making false statements. This being Trump  the acolyte of âtruthful hyperbole â  he  couldnât let go entirely. Instead   he  found repeated ways to explain  his  untruths. Why had  he  claimed to own 50 percent of a business when  he  only owned 30? Because  Trump  hadnât had to put up cash upfront   he  said  âthe 30 percent equates to much more than 30 percent.â Why had  Trump  claimed to have been paid $1 million for a speech when  as  he  acknowledged under oath   he âd actually received $400 000?  He  had decided that the value to  his  brand made up another 600 grand. Was it true that  Trump  had not received any loans from  his  father  as heâd told OâBrien? Under oath  he offered a different story: âI think a small amount a long time ago. I think it was like in the $9 million range.â Why had he inflated his net worth? The reason  he said  was that it varied  and just not with the market. âMy net worth fluctuates  and it goes up and down with markets and with attitudes and with feelings  even my own feelings â  Trump  said.
 Trump  had an explanation that would telegraph  his  approach when  he  later decided to run for president: âIâm no different from a politician running for office. You always want to put the best foot forward.â Yet at other times   Trump  simply conceded  he âd been wrong. Faced with a public statement that membership at a golf course had cost $300 000  50 percent higher than the real figureâas a Trump Organization document stated. â Correct â Trump  said.  He  also excused errors in a book published under  his  name  saying  âI read it very quickly â even though  he  was credited as author.  Trumpâs  suit against OâBrien was dismissed. The rare aptitude for honesty is not the only thing  thatâs  notable about  Trumpâs  demeanor in depositions. In most cases  videos of  his  appearances are not available. In a suit over  Trump University   for example  transcripts of two depositions were released  but Judge Gonzalo Curiel (yes  the one  Trump  said was biased against  him  because of  his  Mexican heritage) blocked the release of the videos. But in the Trump Hotel case  videos were released. They show a  Trump  who is calm and deliberate  and while  his  speaking style is recognizable   he  seems to take  his  time and consider answers and thoughts far more carefully than  he  does in public appearances. This is not the only case where this public-private split happens; as I noted last year  when  transcripts of Trumpâs conversations with world leaders  leaked   they  revealed a far more articulate leader than the public President Trump.
This is not to say that  he âs happyâfew people enjoy depositions. For the first half of the Trump Hotel deposition   Trump  sits with  his  arms crossed  looking cross. In other cases   he  is even more querulous. During the  Trump University  deposition   Trump  was angry from the start  accusing the opposing counsel of âharassmentâ when  she  asked  him  to spell  his  name. âI think the lawsuit is trying to hurt the brand  and I honestly look forward to winning this case and suing your law firm for as much as we can sue them for  and we will be doing that â  he  said. Later   he  scolded the lawyer as  she  handed him documents. âCould you not lick your finger before you give me a document  please. Would that be okay?â  Trump  said. âItâs disgusting.â In a 2011 deposition   he  blew up when a lawyer asked to take time to pump breastmilk. âYouâre disgusting â  he  said  and walked out. Some of  his  irritability may represent a strategic choice. In the  Trump University  deposition in particular   Trumpâs  lawyer repeatedly tangles with the deposing lawyer  objecting to lines of questioning and eventually calling for a break to call the judge to discuss whether certain subjects were permitted. But  Trump  seems to get in on the act  too.  He  often acts aggrieved about certain lines of questioning or treats the opposing lawyers as though their questions are preposterous.  He  also repeatedly goes on tangents  bragging about the value of  his  business or about  his  political success or whatever else might strike  his  fancy  even as  he  accuses opposing counsel of filibustering. These techniques for running out the clock  as well as the penchant for projection  will be familiar to anyone who watched  Trump  debate in 2015 or 2016.
If there is one tendency that emerges from the depositions that might have bearing on Muellerâs probe  itâs that  Trump  demonstrates little involvement in or awareness of whatâs going on at  his  business. It helps that  Trump  claims to have done practically no preparation for  the Trump University  and Trump Hotel depositions. (Former: âHow did you prepare for your deposition?â âI didn't prepare.â Latter: âI would say virtually nothing. I spoke with my counsel for a short period of time.â) Over and over  though  he shows himself to be disconnected from the administration of his business empire. Itâs not just his statement on the hotel restaurant  that âI wasnât involved in the lease. I signed it  but I wasnât involved in it.â Asked what his responsibilities with regard to  Trump University  were   Trump  offered a gauzily meaningless statement: âWell  it was very important to me  because if I can impart knowledge to people to make their lives better  that is a very important thing to me.â Confronted with his lawyerâs statement saying that  Trump  did not have âsubstantial controlâ of  Trump University    Trump  tried to find a way to have it both ways. âSo I thought it was aâI thought it was a veryâso it was a very important thing to me  actually  the school â  he  said. But  Trump  clearly had little knowledge of how  Trump University  ran.  He  insisted  he  had reviewed resumes of teachers  but couldnât remember many of their names  how they were chosen  or what they taught.  He  could not explain what students received in the apprentice or Gold Elite programs.  He  did not recall receiving a letter from the New York Department of Education demanding that  the company  drop the âuniversityâ moniker. Asked whether  he âd reviewed an agreement   he  replied  âProbably. I mean  I have lawyers that do this. I donât think I did it  but I have lawyers that do it  yes.â  He  couldnât recall whether  he  owned certain business entities and deferred questions to  his  lawyer. âI donât know. Youâd have to ask Mr. Garten. It could be. I think so  but I just donât know specifically  but you could ask Mr. Garten â he said.
Sometime soon    [TGT] is likely to be deposed by Special Counsel Robert Mueller and  his  team. Several outlets  beginning with NBC News on Monday  report that   [TGT]  âs lawyers are negotiating with Mueller about  the president  testifying under oath  though Mueller has made no formal request so far. The specific importance of such a deposition is hard to judge.   [TGT]  âs lawyers  who also appear to have leaked word of the discussions to the press  present it as a sign that Mueller is nearing the end of his investigation  though they have previously  and incorrectly  predicted the probe would be over by Thanksgiving or Christmas. The New York Times reports that Mueller seems interested in topics that would imply more of a focus on the possibility of obstruction of justice than on collusion with Russia during the campaign  but that is somewhat speculative. Related Story The Art of the Swindle Assuming the deposition occurs    [TGT] will make political history as only the fifth sitting president to be deposed  following in the footsteps of Ulysses Grant  Gerald Ford  Jimmy Carter  and  most consequentially Bill Clintonâwhose lie about not having a sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky in a 1998 deposition led to his impeachment. For   [TGT]    however  depositions are familiar territory. In 2012  he said during a deposition that he had done more than 100 over the course of his career. Transcripts  and in one case video  of three depositions taken over the last decade provide a fascinating look into how the prolifically dissembling president behaves when he is under oath.   [TGT] is the same but different from the one familiar to Americans today.   [TGT]   is just as apt to bluster and braggadocio  and sometimes peevish. But within the confines of conference rooms and offices    [TGT]   is calmer  more restrained  and more deliberate than   [TGT]   public persona  and with the tether of   [TGT]   oath holding   [TGT]   back  often acknowledges when   [TGT]   is wrong or has misrepresented things in the past.
 Trumpâs  tendency toward inflating thingsâhis net worth   [TGT]  intellectual prowess   [TGT]  actionsâhas become a defining characteristic of  [TGT]  career in politics  as it was in  [TGT]  career in business. Fact-checkers have made tallying the lies and untruths that the president delivers nearly a competitive sport. As a result  itâs striking to see   [TGT] in a setting where  he  is obliged to tell the truth  under penalty of law. For example    [TGT] is involved in litigation against Geoffrey Zakarian  a chef who had signed a lease to open a restaurant in  Trumpâs  hotel in D.C.  but pulled out in response to inflammatory comments that   [TGT]   made as a presidential candidate. During the deposition  an attorney read  Trump  a document boasting   [TGT] is personally involved in everything that   [TGT]   name represents. This commitment has made   [TGT]   the preeminent developer of quality real estate known around the world  and in all   [TGT]   endeavors the  Trump  gold standard is apparent.â Is that true  she asked?   [TGT]  : Yes. Q: And when it says that youâre personally involved in everything that your name represents  what does that mean  that your name represents?  Trump : Well  I think that  you know  I do things that donât necessarily have my name on it. But Iâm involved with  when we put our name on a hotel such as this one which is very important  Iâm very much involved in the details. In fact  that was not true  as   [TGT] acknowledged a few minutes later: Q: Did you review the lease at all before you signed it?  [TGT] : No. Q: So did you have any understanding when you signed the lease as to what your rights were relative to getting damages against the tenant in the event of a default by the tenant?   [TGT]  : No. When I signed the lease  you know  my son said we have the lease  so I signed the lease. But  really  they knew it much better than I did. I wasnât involved in the lease. I signed it  but I wasnât involved in it. He added  âI signed hundreds  much more than that. But I donât generally review them. I have somebody thatâwhether itâs an executive or in this case one of my children  you know  I rely on people to do these things. Including lawyers that Iâve had for many years  like [  [TGT] Organization general counsel Alan] Garten or somebody. So I relyâso I very rarely get too involved in it.â
When he was caught exaggerating the speed of completion of the hotel project    [TGT] simply pretended  he  hadnât. âWeâre substantially ahead of schedule â  he  insisted  even as the lawyer asked (and received an answer) to a question about when the timeline for opening had moved back from 2015 to 2016. As The Washington Post noted in a 2016 piece  Trumpâs tendency to back off  his  most obviously fake statements was especially pronounced in a December 2007 deposition.   [TGT] had sued the journalist and author  [TGT]  was far less than the billions   [TGT]   claimed.   [TGT] sued OâBrien for libel and defamation. The Post found 30 occasions in that deposition alone where   [TGT]   admitted to making false statements. This being  [TGT] the acolyte of âtruthful hyperbole â  he  couldnât let go entirely. Instead   he  found repeated ways to explain  his  untruths. Why had  he  claimed to own 50 percent of a business when  he  only owned 30? Because   [TGT]    [TGT]  had to put up cash upfront   he  said  âthe 30 percent equates to much more than 30 percent.â Why had   [TGT]   claimed to have been paid $1 million for a speech when  as   [TGT]   acknowledged under oath    [TGT]  âd actually received $400 000?   [TGT]   had decided that the value to   [TGT]   brand made up another 600 grand. Was it true that   [TGT] had not received any loans from   [TGT]   father  as heâd told OâBrien? Under oath  he offered a different story: âI think a small amount a long time ago. I think it was like in the $9 million range.â Why had he inflated his net worth? The reason  he said  was that it varied  and just not with the market. âMy net worth fluctuates  and it goes up and down with markets and with attitudes and with feelings  even my own feelings â   [TGT] said.
  [TGT] had an explanation that would telegraph   [TGT]   approach when   [TGT]   later decided to run for president: âIâm no different from a politician running for office. You always want to put the best foot forward.â Yet at other times    [TGT] simply conceded   [TGT]  âd been wrong. Faced with a public statement that membership at a golf course had cost $300 000  50 percent higher than the real figureâas a Trump Organization document stated. â Correct â  [TGT] said.   [TGT]   also excused errors in a book published under   [TGT]   name  saying  âI read it very quickly â even though  he  was credited as author.   [TGT] suit against OâBrien was dismissed. The rare aptitude for honesty is not the only thing  thatâs  notable about  Trumpâs  demeanor in depositions. In most cases  videos of  his  appearances are not available. In a suit over   [TGT]    for example  transcripts of two depositions were released  but Judge Gonzalo Curiel (yes  the one   [TGT] said was biased against   [TGT]   because of   [TGT]   Mexican heritage) blocked the release of the videos. But in the Trump Hotel case  videos were released. They show a  Trump  who is calm and deliberate  and while  his  speaking style is recognizable   he  seems to take  his  time and consider answers and thoughts far more carefully than  he  does in public appearances. This is not the only case where this public-private split happens; as I noted last year  when  transcripts of Trumpâs conversations with world leaders  leaked   they  revealed a far more articulate leader than the public President Trump.
This is not to say that  he âs happyâfew people enjoy depositions. For the first half of the Trump Hotel deposition    [TGT] sits with   [TGT]   arms crossed  looking cross. In other cases    [TGT]   is even more querulous. During the   [TGT]   deposition    [TGT] was angry from the start  accusing the opposing counsel of âharassmentâ when  she  asked  him  to spell  his  name. âI think the lawsuit is trying to hurt the brand  and I honestly look forward to winning this case and suing your law firm for as much as we can sue them for  and we will be doing that â  he  said. Later   he  scolded the lawyer as  she  handed him documents. âCould you not lick your finger before you give me a document  please. Would that be okay?â   [TGT] said. âItâs disgusting.â In a 2011 deposition   he  blew up when a lawyer asked to take time to pump breastmilk. âYouâre disgusting â  he  said  and walked out. Some of  his  irritability may represent a strategic choice. In the   [TGT]   deposition in particular    [TGT] lawyer repeatedly tangles with the deposing lawyer  objecting to lines of questioning and eventually calling for a break to call the judge to discuss whether certain subjects were permitted. But   [TGT] seems to get in on the act  too.   [TGT]   often acts aggrieved about certain lines of questioning or treats the opposing lawyers as though their questions are preposterous.   [TGT]   also repeatedly goes on tangents  bragging about the value of   [TGT]   business or about   [TGT]   political success or whatever else might strike   [TGT]   fancy  even as   [TGT]   accuses opposing counsel of filibustering. These techniques for running out the clock  as well as the penchant for projection  will be familiar to anyone who watched   [TGT]   debate in 2015 or 2016.
If there is one tendency that emerges from the depositions that might have bearing on Muellerâs probe  itâs that   [TGT]   demonstrates little involvement in or awareness of whatâs going on at  his  business. It helps that   [TGT] claims to have done practically no preparation for  the Trump University  and Trump Hotel depositions. (Former: âHow did you prepare for your deposition?â âI didn't prepare.â Latter: âI would say virtually nothing. I spoke with my counsel for a short period of time.â) Over and over  though  he shows himself to be disconnected from the administration of his business empire. Itâs not just his statement on the hotel restaurant  that âI wasnât involved in the lease. I signed it  but I wasnât involved in it.â Asked what his responsibilities with regard to   [TGT]   were    [TGT]   offered a gauzily meaningless statement: âWell  it was very important to me  because if I can impart knowledge to people to make their lives better  that is a very important thing to me.â Confronted with his lawyerâs statement saying that  Trump  did not have âsubstantial controlâ of   [TGT] tried to find a way to have it both ways. âSo I thought it was aâI thought it was a veryâso it was a very important thing to me  actually  the school â   [TGT]   said. But   [TGT]   clearly had little knowledge of how   [TGT]   ran.   [TGT]   insisted   [TGT]   had reviewed resumes of teachers  but couldnât remember many of their names  how they were chosen  or what they taught.   [TGT]   could not explain what students received in the apprentice or Gold Elite programs.   [TGT]   did not recall receiving a letter from the New York Department of Education demanding that  the company  drop the âuniversityâ moniker. Asked whether  he âd reviewed an agreement   he  replied  âProbably. I mean  I have lawyers that do this. I donât think I did it  but I have lawyers that do it  yes.â  He  couldnât recall whether  he  owned certain business entities and deferred questions to  his  lawyer. âI donât know. Youâd have to ask Mr. Garten. It could be. I think so  but I just donât know specifically  but you could ask Mr. Garten â he said.