Trump Claims ' Absolute Right' To Do What He Wants To The Justice Dept. Can He ? : NPR
Trump Claims 'Absolute Right' To Do What  He  Wants To The Justice Dept. Can  He ?
Neal Katyal wrote the special counsel regulations when he worked under President Clinton. Now he lays out the legal issues that could arise if  Trump  tries to interfere with the Mueller investigation.
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.  President Trump  has called Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation a witch hunt. Last week   Trump  told New York Times reporter Michael Schmidt  I have the absolute right to do what I want to do with the Justice Department  implying that he can end the investigation whenever he wants. So what power does he have to stop or stymie the investigation into Russian interference in the election and any links and or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump campaign and how consequential is Paul Manafort's lawsuit against special counsel Mueller and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein?
Here to discuss those and other related questions is Neal Katyal who  in 1999  drafted the special counsel regulations under which Mueller was appointed. Katyal served as acting solicitor general under President Obama. He's the lead lawyer for the state of Hawaii's challenge of Trump's travel ban. He's argued many cases before the Supreme Court. In fact  that's where he'll be next week. He's a professor of law at Georgetown University and a partner in the law firm Hogan Lovells.
GROSS: So I'm going to ask you the question I'm sure you're most often asked which is  does  President Trump  have the power to fire special counsel Robert Mueller?
KATYAL: I think the answer to that is yes. And I think  he  can do it in  you know  either directly or indirectly. Some people think it can only be indirect. But I think  either way  there's a way in which it can get done. So these regulations are Justice Department regulations. They can be removed by another attorney general or an acting attorney general potentially. So the president could theoretically order Sessions to remove these regulations as a whole.
And  you know  I would love to talk about who this special counsel is  Robert Mueller and his credentials  in a moment. But let's just say you had one that - an attorney general appointed a bozo. The bozo wouldn't be able to  you know  put someone in jail. The bozo first has to work with a staff and is supervised by the acting attorney general of the United States. Now  who's the acting attorney general of the United States - the Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein. And who put Rod Rosenstein in power? It wasn't Barack Obama. It was  President Trump . This is - Rosenstein is  Trump 's guy. He's the guy he put there.
GROSS: So if  President Trump  asked the Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein to fire the special counsel Robert Mueller and Rosenstein refused  then  he  could - then  Trump  could fire Rosenstein  and his replacement would be asked to fire Robert Mueller and that could go on for a while. But the other possibility - or at least another possibility that  President Trump  could use would be to fire Rod Rosenstein and to replace him with somebody who would have a very favorable eye toward  President Trump . So is that a scenario that you could see playing out and working under the guidelines for the special counsel as you wrote them?
KATYAL: So it is possible for the president to try to fire Rosenstein. Rosenstein is a presidential appointee. As I say  he's  Trump 's guy  and he can be removed by  Trump . He'd have to be replaced in some way in order for the deputy attorney general to have any function. So you'd have to put someone else in place. Normally  that requires Senate confirmation to put that person in place.
And I would suspect that there would be incredible blood on the floor of the U.S. Senate - I mean  just the most divisive debate possible if someone was being confirmed to replace Rod Rosenstein who  by all accounts  has done a good job supervising the Mueller investigation. So I think  yes  there's the theoretical power that  Trump  has  but it'll be constrained by  in practice  the problem that he couldn't confirm a new person to that post.
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR My guest is Neal Katyal. He drafted the regulations defining the powers of the special counsel and the limitations of those powers. So we're talking about the Robert Mueller investigation and what powers  President Trump  has to end or stymie that investigation. Neal Katyal served as the deputy solicitor general under President Obama. He's a lawyer in private practice now. But he still argues many cases before the Supreme Court.
So something that you point out  President Trump  could do is  he  could pardon everyone who's being investigated. Are you saying  he  could even pardon them before they're convicted of anything?
GROSS: So I don't know if this is outside of your view or not  but the House and the Senate have intelligence committees that are also investigating any connections between the  Trump  campaign and Russia and Russian interference in the American election. Are there things that they can do that would make it difficult for Mueller to pursue his investigation?
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross  back with Neal Katyal. In 1999  he drafted the regulations defining the powers of the special counsel under which Robert Mueller was appointed. Katyal was acting solicitor general in the Obama administration and has argued 35 cases before the Supreme Court. When we left off  we were talking about ways in which the House and Senate investigations into Russian interference in the election and links to  the Trump campaign  could actually make it more difficult for Mueller to pursue his investigation.
GROSS: Right. The two people who wrote that op-ed you're talking about  Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch of Fusion GPS  they're calling for the release of 21 hours of testimony that they gave. And they say - in that testimony  they explained how they were hired. They say the transcripts show that they suggested to the committee that the investigators look into the bank records of Deutsche Bank and others that were funding  Trump 's businesses. They write  (reading) but Congress appeared uninterested in that. Reportedly ours - the Fusion GPS - are the only bank records the House intelligence committee has subpoenaed.
Also they said that they told Congress that (reading) from Manhattan to Sunny Isles Beach  Fla.  and from Toronto to Panama  we found widespread evidence that Mr. Trump and his organization had worked with a wide array of dubious Russians in arrangements that often raised questions about money laundering. Those deals don't seem to interest Congress  they write.
[TGT]Absolute Right' To Do What  [TGT]  Wants To The Justice Dept. Can  [TGT] ?
Neal Katyal wrote the special counsel regulations when he worked under President Clinton. Now he lays out the legal issues that could arise if  [TGT]tries to interfere with the Mueller investigation.
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.  [TGT]has called Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation a witch hunt. Last week   [TGT]told New York Times reporter Michael Schmidt  I have the absolute right to do what I want to do with the Justice Department  implying that he can end the investigation whenever he wants. So what power does he have to stop or stymie the investigation into Russian interference in the election and any links and or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the [TGT] campaign and how consequential is Paul Manafort's lawsuit against special counsel Mueller and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein?
Here to discuss those and other related questions is Neal Katyal who  in 1999  drafted the special counsel regulations under which Mueller was appointed. Katyal served as acting solicitor general under President Obama. He's the lead lawyer for the state of Hawaii's challenge of [TGT]'s travel ban. He's argued many cases before the Supreme Court. In fact  that's where he'll be next week. He's a professor of law at Georgetown University and a partner in the law firm Hogan Lovells.
GROSS: So I'm going to ask you the question I'm sure you're most often asked which is  does  [TGT]have the power to fire special counsel Robert Mueller?
KATYAL: I think the answer to that is yes. And I think  [TGT]  can do it in  you know  either directly or indirectly. Some people think it can only be indirect. But I think  either way  there's a way in which it can get done. So these regulations are Justice Department regulations. They can be removed by another attorney general or an acting attorney general potentially. So [TGT] could theoretically order Sessions to remove these regulations as a whole.
And  you know  I would love to talk about who this special counsel is  Robert Mueller and his credentials  in a moment. But let's just say you had one that - an attorney general appointed a bozo. The bozo wouldn't be able to  you know  put someone in jail. The bozo first has to work with a staff and is supervised by the acting attorney general of the United States. Now  who's the acting attorney general of the United States - the Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein. And who put Rod Rosenstein in power? It wasn't Barack Obama. It was  [TGT] . This is - Rosenstein is  [TGT] 's guy. He's the guy he put there.
GROSS: So if  [TGT]asked the Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein to fire the special counsel Robert Mueller and Rosenstein refused  then  he  could - then  [TGT]  could fire Rosenstein  and his replacement would be asked to fire Robert Mueller and that could go on for a while. But the other possibility - or at least another possibility that  [TGT]could use would be to fire Rod Rosenstein and to replace him with somebody who would have a very favorable eye toward [TGT] . So is that a scenario that you could see playing out and working under the guidelines for the special counsel as you wrote them?
KATYAL: So it is possible for [TGT] to try to fire Rosenstein. Rosenstein is a presidential appointee. As I say  he's  Trump 's guy  and he can be removed by [TGT] . He'd have to be replaced in some way in order for the deputy attorney general to have any function. So you'd have to put someone else in place. Normally  that requires Senate confirmation to put that person in place.
And I would suspect that there would be incredible blood on the floor of the U.S. Senate - I mean  just the most divisive debate possible if someone was being confirmed to replace Rod Rosenstein who  by all accounts  has done a good job supervising the Mueller investigation. So I think  yes  there's the theoretical power that  Trump  has  but it'll be constrained by  in practice  the problem that he couldn't confirm a new person to that post.
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR My guest is Neal Katyal. He drafted the regulations defining the powers of the special counsel and the limitations of those powers. So we're talking about the Robert Mueller investigation and what powers  President Trump  has to end or stymie that investigation. Neal Katyal served as the deputy solicitor general under President Obama. He's a lawyer in private practice now. But he still argues many cases before the Supreme Court.
So something that you point out  President Trump  could do is  he  could pardon everyone who's being investigated. Are you saying  he  could even pardon them before they're convicted of anything?
GROSS: So I don't know if this is outside of your view or not  but the House and the Senate have intelligence committees that are also investigating any connections between the  Trump  campaign and Russia and Russian interference in the American election. Are there things that they can do that would make it difficult for Mueller to pursue his investigation?
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross  back with Neal Katyal. In 1999  he drafted the regulations defining the powers of the special counsel under which Robert Mueller was appointed. Katyal was acting solicitor general in the Obama administration and has argued 35 cases before the Supreme Court. When we left off  we were talking about ways in which the House and Senate investigations into Russian interference in the election and links to  the [TGT] campaign  could actually make it more difficult for Mueller to pursue his investigation.
GROSS: Right. The two people who wrote that op-ed you're talking about  Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch of Fusion GPS  they're calling for the release of 21 hours of testimony that they gave. And they say - in that testimony  they explained how they were hired. They say the transcripts show that they suggested to the committee that the investigators look into the bank records of Deutsche Bank and others that were funding  [TGT] 's businesses. They write  (reading) but Congress appeared uninterested in that. Reportedly ours - the Fusion GPS - are the only bank records the House intelligence committee has subpoenaed.
Also they said that they told Congress that (reading) from Manhattan to Sunny Isles Beach  Fla.  and from Toronto to Panama  we found widespread evidence that Mr. Trump and his organization had worked with a wide array of dubious Russians in arrangements that often raised questions about money laundering. Those deals don't seem to interest Congress  they write.