#  Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

### House: National Council of Provinces 

###  Date of Meeting: 06 Jun 2018 

## Summary

_No summary available._

## Minutes

**WEDNESDAY, 6 JUNE 2018  
  
 _PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES_**  
  
The Council met at 14:01.  
  
The House Chairperson: International Relations and Members Support took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery have agreed that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice. Before we proceed, hon members I would like to take this opportunity and welcome the Minister and Deputy Minister who are in our House and the special delegates.  
  
Mr J W W JULIUS: I think there was a matter that you said you will comeback to the House, and you even promised it further when hon Hattingh asked you last time and you said the next time you will comeback to the House with that ruling. Thank you, Chair.  


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon Julius. We are done with that matter, you were not here yesterday. Can I please proceed, hon members?  
  
**APPROPRIATION BILL**  
  
Policy debate on Budget Vote No - 39 Rural Development and Land Reform:  
**APPROPRIATION BILL**  
  
Policy debate on Budget Vote No 24 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries:  
  
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson,  
  
hon Minister, Maite Nkoana-Mashabane, and Deputy Ministers present, Chairperson and members of the Select Committee on Land and Minerals, MECs of Agriculture, members of the National Council of Provinces, farmer unions and representatives of organised agriculture, sectoral industry bodies, national and provincial officials of the department, in his state of the nation address, President Cyril Ramaphosa made the following observations when he outlined our government’s strategic focus, and I quote:  


Agriculture presents one of the greatest opportunities to significantly grow our economy and create jobs. Agriculture made the largest contribution, by a significant margin, to the improved growth of our economy in the second and third quarters of 2017.  
  
This year, we will take decisive action to realise the enormous economic potential of agriculture. We will accelerate our land redistribution programme not only to redress a grave historical injustice, but also to bring more producers into the agricultural sector and to make more land available for cultivation.  
  
We will pursue a comprehensive approach that makes effective use of all the mechanisms at our disposal.  
  
It is trite that the agricultural sector carries with it great potential to create employment and help stem the tide of the current high levels of unemployment in our country. The resilience of the sector during the recent outdrawn drought and its current upsurge as reflected in its contribution into our GDP growth.  
  
Our mandate as government is two-fold. On the one hand, we have to grow the sector by way of various interventions such as financing

the growth of small holder farmers in their diverse commodities and attract a new generation of farmers targeting the youth into the sector taking advantage of the massive technology that is beginning to dominate the sector such as robotics, drones and Space-based technologies which are now part of what is popularly known as “Smart agriculture.  
  
Young people are interested in today’s industry disruption technologies; we must take advantage of that. We must incorporate these new technologies into the curricula of our agricultural colleges of the future.  
  
Secondly, as government we have a mandate to use agricultural interventions to fight poverty and guarantee food security for everyone and especially to the indigent. Our Food, Nutrition Security policy elaborates our approach in this regard.  
  
Hon Chairperson, I want to return to this point about young people and agriculture. Chairperson, this year we are celebrating the centenary of the first President of a free and democratic South Africa, and the stalwart of our revolution, who were both very passionate about the plight of the young people. It is therefore appropriate for me to borrow from Comrade Nelson Mandela to make the point about young people. He said:  


Young people are capable, when aroused, of bringing down the towers of oppression and raising the banners of freedom.  
  
Hon members, the time is now to call upon the young people of our country and the continent to bring the towers of malnutrition, hunger, starvation and food insecurity. Those towers cannot be brought down without young people seeing agriculture as a vehicle to that eventuality.  
  
I was so excited when I read about a young Zambian girl, a granddaughter of Comrade K K Kaunda who exchanged stethoscope for a tractor. Trained as medical doctor she understood that prevention is better than cure. A better fed nation is less likely to be sick. Dr Kaunda Tamara says:  
  
My next thought was how do I help my people afford better health care and be free from poverty, then I traced back to agriculture that made our lives better”, she continues, “doing farming myself would send a signal to many Zambians who think your life can only be better if you have an official job which is not true, most billionaires in Zambia are into farming business.  


Closer home hon members, about a month ago I met a young female farmer who is so passionate with what she is doing. Her name is Namhla Skweyiya, a food technologist turned farmer. She worked for Woolworths and decided to leave her cosy job and became a farmer. Hon members, today she supplies one of the biggest chain stores with lettuce, cabbage, herbs, green beans spinach, and soya beans among others.  
  
We were having an Inaugural Summit and she was present as delegate. We didn’t meet her anywhere else, hon member.  
  
She is just outside Pretoria. She partnered with an established farmer. They agreed on a win-win outcome. The tragedy is that she leases the land she is using at very high costs. It is thus a fallacy to argue that young people do shy away from agriculture. What she needs from us is that we make land available to her. And I agree with those who say the land belongs to those who work it.  
  
AN HON MEMBER: Us!  
  
Before I deal with this year’s budget allocation, I wish to re- iterate a warning I sounded last year that we must refrain from politicising agriculture and the challenges faced by both farmers and farmworkers alike in the sector.  


Recently we have observed in the media formations such as the Afro- Forum spreading misinformation on global platforms about genocide on white people in South Africa arising out of the current discourse on land. These claims are without foundation and as such must be exposed.  
  
I wish to take this opportunity to commend AgriSA for speaking out against this misinformation campaign by Afro-Forum.  
  
AgriSA have produced a report to the effect that claims of a white genocide in South Africa are unsupported by evidence and that farm murders in South Africa are actually on a 20-year-old low.  
  
It is encouraging to observe that there are white South Africans who will not let narrow opportunistic agendas to derail serious attempts to find lasting solutions to challenges experienced in the sector.  
This bodes very well for nation-building in our country, and I would, once again, like to commend those who stand up and say there is no genocide in South Africa. We are dealing with criminality.  
  
The total allocation for Vote 24 amounts to R7,1 billion of which R3,9 billion is allocated as transfers and subsidies. The R2,3 billion is allocated as conditional grants to provinces.  
Comprehensive Agricultural Support programme grant is R1,7 billion,  


Ilima/Letsema projects grant is R552 million and Land Care programme grant is R77,8 million. And R1,3 billion is allocated to the Public Entities of the department of which R1 billion is allocated to the Agricultural Research Council, R259 million to Marine Living Resources Fund, R43,2 million to National Agricultural Marketing Council, NAMC**,** R6,6 million to Ncera Farms and R585 million to Perishable Products Export Control Board, PPECB.  
  
May I add that Ncera Farm does not exist anymore as part of it has been transferred to the area of dealing with animal what we call in Sepedi – Kaonafatso ya Dikgomo Scheme.  
  
The CASP and Ilima/Letsema conditional grants have been moved from schedule 4 to 5 of the Division of Revenue Act which requires that provinces must account per project – and I would like to say that we have taken a stand that if provinces cannot prove how funds are used, we will make sure that no more funding is allocated.  
  
The following additional amounts have been allocated as earmarked funds for: Food Safety and Quality Assurance: Upgrade of diagnostic and analytical laboratories infrastructure and equipment is allocated R20 million. Strengthening of Inspection and Quarantine Services, R40 million, Agricultural Census, R100 million;  


development of import and exports system – R25 million; Expanded Public Works Programme, Incentive Working for Forests R2,2 million.  
  
Land Care is a community based and government supported programme that seeks to optimise agricultural productivity and enhance the sustainable use of natural agricultural resources. The goals of the programme are improved food security and job creation.  
  
The Land Care programme allocations to provinces are as follows: Eastern Cape is allocated R10,9 million; Free State R7,6 million, Gauteng R5,3 million, KwaZulu-Natal R12 million, Limpopo R12,6 million, Mpumalanga R8,3 million, Northern Cape R7,7 million, North West R8,3 million. [Interjections.]  
  
Government has identified agriculture as a key job driver targeting the sector to create about a million jobs by 2030, a target that can be achieved through increased youth participation in the sector. The agriculture, forestry and fisheries sectors are characterised by ageing farmer populations and a high rate of unemployed graduates.  
  
To respond to this challenge the department has developed an Agricultural Graduate Placement Programme which is implemented from this month. A total of 1 000 unemployed agricultural graduates will benefit from this initiative. The objectives of the programme are to  


provide unemployed graduates in the sector with an opportunity to gain on the job training.  
  
A total of 120 graduates will be placed per province in Eastern Cape, Free State, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, North West and the Western Cape, while Gauteng and the Northern Cape were allocated  
80 graduates each.  
  
To improve service delivery to our farming community, a Candidate Engineering Support Model has been developed and approved.  
  
Masisizane, Brimstone and Old Mutual together have created a fund of R100 million that will be established to help small-scale fishers who have challenges with access to funding. This is what we would like to see happening in the private sector by a number of other commercial companies not only limited to fisheries as we know that without funding you may have access to land if you don’t have access to funding you will not be able to produce anything.  
  
With regard to the commercialisation of black smallholder farmers, a draft commercialisation framework has been developed in collaboration with the Department of Trade and Industry. My department is partnering with the Land Bank, Banking Association of South Africa which is made up of Nedbank, Absa, Standard Bank, FNB  


and Agbiz to provide blended funding and increase the participation of black commercial producers in agriculture, forestry and fisheries.  
  
In line with the outcomes of Operation Phakisa in Agriculture, Rural Development and Land Reform, the department aims to create and support 450 sustainable and profitable black commercial producers participating in the Revitalised Agricultural and Agro-processing Value Chains, RAAVC. And to do this we need to do a number of things.  
  
Firstly, to ensure that for every agreement we sign with any global entity for export, the part thereof should be a production by small scale farmers because without that access to any such appointment they would not be able to achieve their goals. An estimated R581,7 million was reprioritised for this purpose. The following are some of the projects to be supported in this financial year:  
  
In the Eastern Cape Province, a partnership between Grain Farmer Development Association, GFADA, and Grain SA is targeting 52 000 ha for the production of maize with an average yield of six tonnes per ha benefiting 18 333 smallholder and communal farmers.  


Regarding Wool and Mohair production, farmers in the Eastern Cape produce 90% of all South African wool and 52% of the world’s mohair. Currently, smallholder and communal farmers receive less than 45% of the national average price of wool.  
  
A partnership between Land Bank and the Eastern Cape Department of Rural Development and Agrarian Reform is developing 91 ha of Macadamia nuts. This will result in 320 ha planted, benefiting the communities of Willowvale and Ncera and creating 500 jobs.  
  
And let me say that Macadamia nuts can be grown in four provinces, which are Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga and Limpopo.  
Therefore, through partnership in this form we believe that we can make sure that the land that is unused can be put in use in a way that is sustainable.  
  
The biggest portion of the Ilima/Letsema budget 65% is allocated for production input support to subsistence and smallholder producers to increase grain and livestock production. The programme will support  
46 projects for the production of 2 453 ha benefiting 16 subsistence producers and 55 smallholder producers and it is expected to create  
461 jobs. Xhariep district is allocated R8,550 million for sheep and ostriches; Mangaung metropolitan area received R9 million for maize, vegetables, pastures, beef, pigs and poultry. [Interjections.]  


Each province is allocated but the challenge on us is to ensure that our monitoring and evaluation is very key. The case of North West is a point that we should look at; not only limiting it to North West, to say that wherever there has been an allocation of funding government must follow up and provinces which do not follow the procedures of dispensing funding should not receive any.  
  
With that we believe that we have listened to all those who have raised the flag and we have done our work. There is an entity and all departments have been placed on section 100(1)(a)(b). We believe that province will change and that is what we will do. We need a support of all members in this House working together we can save our people. Thank you very much. [Applause.]  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
TONA YA TLHABOLLO YA DINAGAMAGAE LE PEAKANYOLESWA YA NAGA:  
  
Modulasetulo wa Lekgotla la Bosetšhaba la Diprofense, Tona ya Kgoro ya Temo, Ntate Zokwana, Motlatši wa gagwe, Batlatšatona ba Kgoro ya Tlhabollo ya Dinagamagae le Peakanyoleswa ya Naga, bahlankedi ba dikgoro tše pedi tše di kopanego mo, ba ka difokeng bao ba lego gona mo gare ga rena ...  
  
_English_ :  


... fellow South Africans, ladies and gentlemen, I am honoured to present to the NCOP the budget vote speech of the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform in the year that we celebrate the centenary of the birth of the father of our nation, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela and Mma Albertina Nontsinkelelo Sisulu. It is in this year that as we remember Mma Sisulu, re gopole gore ge a lwela tokologo [we should be reminded that when she fought for freedom], she also focussed on the fact that access to land should be to those who work it ...  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
... basadi - maswarathipa ka bogaleng, le baswa ba rena.  
  
_English_  
It is in this year where we commemorate the centenary of Madiba that we should remember that in 1994 the first law to be passed by the first democratically elected Parliament was the Restitution of Land Rights Act, Act 22 of 1994. This was done with conscious acknowledgement that land justice but it is important to deal with the challenges of poverty, unemployment and inequality.  
  
In 1995, barely a year into our democracy, Madiba recalled that and I quote:  


With freedom and democracy last year, came restoration of the right to land. And with it, the opportunity to address the effects of centuries of dispossession and denial. At last we can as a people, look our ancestors in the face and say: Your sacrifices were not in vain.  
  
Madiba understood the importance of ensuring that land be returned to the dispossessed masses of our people. He understood that land redistribution, restitution and security of tenure are important elements of the covenant to build a society in which all South Africans, black and white, will be able to walk tall, assured of their inalienable right to human dignity.  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
Seriti sa batho se boele bathong, kudukudu balwelatokologo ba rena.  
  
_English_ :  
  
During the handing over of land to the Cremin community in 1998, Madiba said and I quote:  
  
South Africans have fought wars with each other over land, bitter feuds have raged. People have died for it. In this regard, South Africa is no different from most countries in the world. But in our country, the dispossession of land was also  


part of the oppressive apartheid system that set us one against the other. By making most South Africans landless in the country of their birth, that system produced inequality, division and poverty.  
  
The 54th ANC conference resolution on land expropriation without compensation brings into sharp focus the challenges of land reform including the slow pace and high land prices that have distorted the land market impeding speedy redress of land imbalances.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Minister, sorry for the disturbance. Please take your seat. Take your seat, hon Minister.  
Hon Mokwele?  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you House Chair, I just want to check with the hon Minister if she can take a question. [Interjections.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Let me ascertain. Hon Minister, are you ready to take a question?  
  
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: I still have  
  
closing remarks to make. So, I will answer the question then. At the moment ...  


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): She is not ready, hon Mokwele; take your seat.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: So, you can take a question and you will answer later.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele! She is not ready, take your seat.  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
TONA YA TLHABOLLO YA DINAGAMAGAE LE PEAKANYOLESWA YA NAGA: O nkwele,  
  
dula fase ngwanešo.  
  
_Setswana_ :  
  
Moh T J MOKWELE: Ke batla go tlhola gore ... [Tsenoganong.]  
  
_Sepedi_  
  
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Mohl Mokwele! [Disego.] E ba le mekgwa ye mebotse o theeletše Modulasetulo.  
  
_Setswana_ :  
  
Moh T J MOKWELE: Nyaa, nyaa ... [Tsenoganong.]  


The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: In the first  
  
state of the nation address ... [Interjections.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Koni, you know what you are doing is not right. Hon Mokwele, hon Mokwele, hon Mokwele ...  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
... ke tlile go kgopela gore o ye go dula profenseng ya geno. [Tsenoganong.]  
  
_Setswana_ :  
  
Moh T J MOKWELE: Ke mo profenseng ya ka ...  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Aowa, profense ya gago ke Kapa Leboa. Mohl Mokwele, ke tlile go kgopela gore o boele profenseng ya geno.  
  
_Setswana_ :  
  
Moh T J MOKWELE: Ke mo profenseng ya ka ... [Go se utlwagale.]  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Ge o dutše mouwe o re ... [Tsenoganong.]  


_Setswana_  
Ms T J MOKWELE: And I am also ...  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Mohl Tona, ke kgopela le duleng fase. Mohl Mokwele, ke tlile go kgopela gore o ye o dule mola setulong sa gago ... [Go se kwagale.] ... ge e le gore ge o dutše mouwe o tlile go tshwenya batho ba rena ge ba ...  
  
_English_ :  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: There is no Rule that says a member must ... [Inaudible.] I am in the ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, hon Mokwele ...  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: House Chair, this is North West, I am seated where North West sits.  
  
_Sepedi:_  
  
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Mohl Mokwele, o a tseba setulo seuwe ke sa moetapele wa lena ... [Go se kwagale.]  
  
_English_ :  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: But she is not here.  


_Sepedi_ :  
  
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Bjale ge o dutše mouwe re o dumeletše; re o lesitše akere? Ke kgopela o se ke wa tshwenya batho ba ge ba ... [Go se kwagale.]  
  
_English_ :  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: But I am not ... but it is within my right to stand up.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Yes.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): But then, I requested you not to drown the sopeakers.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: I am drowning, that is why I stood up. Yes.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): So, on what Rule are you standing?  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Can I rise on my point of order?  


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon members, you can’t do that. [Interjections.] Take your seat. I have noted the hon member, Motlashuping after you and the hon Labuschagne will then follow. Why are you standing, hon Mokwele?  
  
_Setswana_ :  
  
Moh T J MOKWELE: O a bona motl Modulasetulo, re seke ra nyatsana. Ke boditse leloko le le tlotlegang gore a o ka tsaya potso, a re nnya. Fa a fetsa a re mekgwa ya ka, ke batla a tlhalose gore ke mekgwa efeng e e leng gore ke e dirile, e e le gore ...  
  
_English_ :  
  
... It’s not allowed in this House.  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Ke a leboga, dula fase Mma. Ga se ke kwe ge Tona a bolela ka mekgwa ya gago. Mohl Tona? Mohl Tona, e re ke kgonthišiše le yena pele. Le kgadile mohl Mokwele ka mekgwa ya gage?  
  
TONA YA TLHABOLLO YA DINAGAMAGAE LE PEAKANYOLESWA YA NAGA: Ke  
  
fetotše gore ke tla araba dipotšišo tša gagwe ka mo Ntlong goba ka kua ntle. [Tsenoganong.]  


_English_ :  
  
That’s what I can confirm.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: You didn’t say that; you have changed completely.  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Mohl Mokwele, e re ... [Tsenoganong.] Mohl Mokwele, ntumelele!... Ntumelele ke bolele.  
  
_Setswana_ :  
  
Moh T J MOKWELE: Ke a go letlelela ...  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): E re ka tla ya go lebelela “Hansard” ke kwe gore naa Tona ba rileng, ke moka re tla tla re boa go taba ye.  
  
_English_ :  
  
Hon Labuschagne, I have noticed that the hon Shabangu ... [Interjections.] Hansard will assist us, hon member, don’t worry. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] The hon Motlashuping? Hon Motlashuping, please talk to me. [Interjections.] Order, hon members!  
  
_Afrikaans:_  


Mnr T C MOTLASHUPING: Jy noem nie vir my jy nie! [Gelag.]  
  
_English_ :  
  
Hon House Chair, let me respect you and not bring the decorum of the House down. The hon Hattingh call us “jy” while we would want to be respected as adults. He must respect us. [Interjections.] Now, what I am saying House Chair - which is a matter of principle, is that in terms of the North West, the hon Mokwele ...  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Where were you? Where were you?  
  
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING ... where she is sitting is the leader of the delegation and I have duly arrived in the House now and as to where I was is not the hon Mokwele’s business and the hon Mokwele must go and occupy her seat and I occupy my rightful seat as the leader of the delegation.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: No, you are not going to remove me. Never!  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Motlashuping, allow the House to continue. Hon Labuschagne? [Interjections.]  
  
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much, hon House Chair. I want to refer to the Rules of this House that determine that as a member of  


this House you cannot speak, address or ask a question or stand a point of order if you are not in your seat. Now, the front seat in this House is allocated either to the Chief Whips, Whips of provinces or special delegates. [Interjections.] I am very sorry, the point of order cannot be addressed and we cannot go on in this way. Thank you.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: I think hon Labuschagne is not from ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much, hon Labuschagne your point of order carries weight. Hon Mokwele, please go and occupy your seat. Leave that seat, hon Mokwele. [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele, I did not allow you to speak. Please take your seat. [Interjections.] Okay, you are recognised. Hon Mokwele, please go and take your seat. [Interjections.] You are standing, hon Koni. [Interjections.] No, no, no, we are still busy  
...  
  
Ms N P KONI: Can you ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): ... I recognised you, hon Koni, take your seat. [Interjections.] Take your seat, hon. I thought you will follow after the hon Mokwele. [Interjections.] That’s what I said.  


Ms T J MOKWELE: House Chair, I think this House started at 2 o’clock  
  
...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele. Hon Mokwele, I requested you to ...  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: yes, I will, but let me ... Can you allow me to address you?  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Go to your seat and address me.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: This House started at 2 o’clock and no one has ... [Inaudible.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele. Hon Mokwele, go and address me at your seat. [Interjections.] Please leave that seat. Yes! Thank you very much, hon Mokwele. Hon Motlashuping, occupy your space, please. Next time please make sure that you respect time, hon Mokwele. We are done me and you. Now is the time for the hon Koni. [Interjections.] Are you not done?  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Can I address you ...  


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, address me, hon Mokwele. [Interjections.] On what point are you standing? Is it a point of order or is it a question?  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: It is a point of order and a point of privilege at the same time. When we started the House at 2 o’clock, “Msosa” was not in the House.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Who is “Msosa” now?  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: It is the hon Motlashuping. [Laughter.] He was not in the House when we started. Nobody has ever mentioned that I am not at my seat. Secondly, this is North West’s row, it overlaps into this seat. North West, you must remember that we do not have a premier therefore no one has appointed anyone to be the leader of delegates. [Interjections.] So, it is within our rights as delegates to appoint ourselves. The hon Labuschagne who comes from the Western Cape cannot tell me that I am not at my seat. I will allow “Msosa” to sit there as he is my friend, not because of any other thing.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, please take your seat. You cannot do that. Hon Motlashuping, I understand that the leader of the delegation gave you the responsibility but you came late. [Interjections.] Order! [Interjections.] I am saying ...  


[Interjections.] ... Listen to me, hon Koni! Please. Hon Motlashuping, you knew that you were given this responsibility today by the leader of the delegation but you chose to arrive late. Can you please stand up and apologise to your honourable colleagues, so that we can continue.  
  
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Thank you hon House Chairperson, at least ... Hon Motlashuping was assigned a particular task and arrived late when the House has started. Be it as it may be, the hon Motlashuping is in the House at the leader of the North West delegation and if there is an hon “Msosa” here, maybe you must go and look for him, I don’t know who is the hon “Msosa”  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Motlashuping, allow us please to keep the decorum of the House.  
  
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: No, thank you, I am not “Msosa” [Laughter.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Yes, we have dealt with that one. You are hon Motlashuping. Okay, hon Essack, we are done with the matter, now I want to continue with the business of the day. Hon Essack?  
  
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, yes ...  


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, I did not allow you to speak. Take your seat. Take your seat, hon Essack. Take your seat! Take your seat. Thank you, hon Essack. Hon Koni, are you still on the same matter or on a new matter?  
  
Ms N P KONI: No, I was going to speak on the same matter but my Whip has spoken and I am sorted. I want to question you, Chairperson.  
Every time when it is an EFF member who stands up on a point of order, you end up ruling that it is not a point of order. You tell them that ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Koni, are you done? Hon Dlamini ...  
  
Ms N P KONI: But hon almost put her finger in my mouth. How would I finish? House Chairperson, firstly, the hon Labuschagne there stood up on a point that was not a point of order and you did not rule on that. Secondly, hon Motlashuping comes here late and stands up and grandstand instead of apologising as you directed him to do. He stands up and gives us a grammar of some sort. So, please be consistent, House Chairperson.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thnak you very much. Firstly, the hon Labuschagne was correct. That is why I requested  


your leader to go and occupy her seat. [Interjections.] Can you allow me to ... [Interjections.] Allow me to ... [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele. Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: But he is not from North West.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele, do you want to go out? [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele. Okay, order. Hon Essack, I can see that your hand is up. What is the problem? [Interjections.] Yes.  
  
Mr F ESSACK: Before you tell me to sit down again, hon House Chairperson, for the sake of the decorum of the House, I would like you to Rule if it is correct for the hon Mokwele from the EFF to wear a t-shirt in this House displayed nationally that’s says FOK.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, please take your seat. Minister, let us continue with the business of the day.  
  
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (cont): Chair, in  
  
his first state of the nation address President Cyril Ramaphosa committed the government to accelerate the land redistribution programme, not only to address a grave historical injustice but also to bring more producers into the agricultural sector. I think the  


hon Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries has spoken at length on this matter.  
  
In this context, he (the President)committed the government to pursue a comprehensive strategy that makes effective use of all mechanisms at our disposal.  
  
_Sepedi:_  
  
Tau tša hloka seboka di šitwa ke nare e hlotša.  
  
_English:_  
  
This is the National Council of Provinces, NCOP, where minds from all provinces should be meeting on how we should deal with this issue of access of land and land disposition. This strategy will include consideration of expropriation without compensation in the light of the resolution of the ruling party.  
  
During the state of the nation debate, the President further emphasised that the disposition of land was the original sin. Its consequences are still felt in our society today and make no mistake, it must be addressed. In line with the parliamentary process now underway to consider the possible amendment of the Constitution to provide for expropriation of land without compensation, our department will contribute in the debate including  


providing our position on the constitutional modalities and policy implications.  
  
In pursuit of radical socioeconomic transformation, we are determined to ensure that land ownership an economic assert for our people.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, the speaker is protected.  
  
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Rural development  
  
remains key economic transformation to the poor in rural areas including where I come from or where I was born. When I was born Magoebaskloof, I will give you details later, I know what land disposition is about and I will ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIR (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Minister, don’t respond to them. Continue with your debate.  
  
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: When productive  
  
pieces of land are availed to the people, this constitutes attractive opportunities for investment. It doesn’t end there, training in Financial Management and linkage to the markets for the uptake of products are the next crucial steps. These are some of the  


aspects which are lacking to transit the rural economy into the mainstream lucrative economy.  
  
Our department needs to spur no effort in uplifting the rural economy with the necessary support that it needs with an intention to restore the dignity and self sustenance of our communities. The active involvement of the communities will not only lead to much needed rural development but could also be a catalyst in reduction of prices of goods in the market.  
  
For 2018-19 we will focus on bringing into operation nine rural economic zones originally anchored and pursuit under Agri-parks programme. Agri-parks initiative will catalyse the development of the surrounding areas including integrated human settlements and making them a hive of activity thereby creating jobs, ownership, reducing inequality, poverty and unemployment. The key aim of this initiative is to ensure that our people in the second economy, fully participate in the economic value chain including market access. It will also provide infrastructure and enterprise support to rural economy enterprises and we believe that this will indeed serve as a catalyst for our people.  
  
In accelerating land redistribution, the department will be acquiring 91 950 hectares of land at a total budget of R1,1 billion  


so that our people get back to where they should be. To improve the livelihoods of rural communities in prioritised rural districts, we shall rollout 80 infrastructure projects to support production. For this programme to gain momentum, support will be required from various stakeholders in legislated structures such as the national departments, municipalities, both district and rural, but also the role of our provincial governments.  
  
_Sepedi:_  
  
... le ba ka difokeng.  
  
_English:_  
  
We shall refine our intergovernmental strategy to advance this mission. While the parliamentary process unfolds, the department will continue to advance to land reform through existing programmes of land redistribution and land tenure.  
  
In conclusion, we do not want to see another day of our people carrying the remains of their loved ones in the middle of the street and having nowhere to bury them.  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
A bo fele bothata bjo, batho ba bolokwe mo ba nyakang go bolokwa gona.  


_English:_  
  
This is part of the restoration of giving ownership back to our people. I thank you. [Applause.]  
  
Mr O J SEFAKO: Hon House Chairperson, hon permanent delegates, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, director-generals present, officials and distinguished guests.  
  
It is indeed a great pleasure to be given the privilege to participate in today’s Budget Votes of the twin departments: the Department of Agriculture, forestry and Fisheries and the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform.  
  
Hon Chair, these budget votes take place at the time in which the glorious movement, the ANC is celebrating lives and times of the two great revolutionaries, Ntate Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela and Mme Albertina Sisulu. We will follow their ideals, ideas and their values like a sinking star beyond the utmost bounds of human thoughts.  
  
Chairperson, allow me to join the progressive global communities in condemning the brutal killing of women and children of Palestine by the apartheid Israel government. Africa cannot enjoy freedom until Palestine is free. We should equally condemn the brutality of the  


people of Morocco which are perpetrated at the Western Saharan people. Africa can equally not claim to be free until the people of Western Sahara are also free. [Applause.]  
  
Hon Chair, will agree that land comes first before Agriculture. We need land to practice agronomy and animal husbandry. Land is the predominant means of production.  
  
I can confirm that both departments did present their budget votes and Annual Performance Plans before the Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources for deliberations and consideration.  
  
The Land question is historical and emotive. It started with wars of conquest, land dispossessions and forceful Removals. It is pre- colonial, during colonial, post-colonial and the new dispensation, still struggling for the land questions.  
  
Sol Plaatje in his Mafikeng Diary had this to say” “Awakening on Friday morning, June 20 1913, The South African native found himself not actually a slave, but a pariah in the land of his birth.”  
  
Plaatje devoted his life, time and his modest resources to the fight against the 1913 Land Act. The consequences of the Land Act were published on the Native Life in South Africa. There was a special  


column of the newspaper called Abantu-Batho. The column was called “What do the people want?” That is where this glorious movement is indeed at all material times, whenever it takes decisions; it ensures that people are taken on board. Communities’ issues cannot be discussed without involving them. Even our legislative frameworks, whichever, we make sure that the affected and interested communities participate.  
  
The Freedom Charter has this to say:  
  
The land shall be shared among those who work it. Restrictions of land ownership on a racial basis shall be ended, and all the land re-divided amongst those who work it to banish famine and land hunger. The state shall help the peasants with implements, seeds, tractors and dams to save the soil and assist ... All shall have the right to occupy land wherever they choose.  
People shall not be robbed of their cattle and forced labour; and farm prisons shall be abolished.  
  
The ready to govern document of 1992 has this to say.  
  
The land dispossession and denial of rights to land have resulted in the present unequal division of land and  


landlessness, which will require legislative intervention far beyond the mere repeal of apartheid laws.  
  
Equally so, the ... through you Chair [Laughter.] ... alright, it is the ANC’s view that the legacy of forced removals and dispossessions must be addressed as a fundamental point of departure to any future land policy for our country; this is from the Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, document of 1994.  
  
The RDP document of 1994 also stated that land is the most basic need for rural dwellers. Apartheid policies pushed millions of black South Africans into overcrowded and impoverished reserves, homelands and townships. In addition, capital-intensive agricultural policies led to the large-scale eviction of farm dwellers from their land and homes. The abolition of the Land Acts cannot redress inequities in land distribution. Only a tiny minority of black people can afford land on the free market.  
  
The ANC has never encouraged land rush and irresponsible land grab. The land must be expropriated without compensations within the parameters of our Constitution, Act 108 of 1996.  


To fight poverty inequality and unemployment land must equitably be redistributed. The December 2017 ANC conference resolved that land must be expropriated without compensation.  
  
The recent farm workers and farm dwellers evicted here in the Western Cape is a fertile ground for the implementation of the afore mentioned resolution of expropriation without compensation.  
  
Soon after the transition the ANC endorsed a three pronged process of land reform: embracing restitution; redistribution and tenure reform.  
  
Restitution is the return of land to blacks whose land was disposed in evil manner after 1913 and the group area act of 1950.  
  
Redistribution seeks to transfer 30% of the commercial farms to blacks by 2025.  
  
Tenure security intends to address issues of title deeds to people living in former homeland, trust land and farm workers and farm dwellers.  
  
Hon Chair, the trust land and the reserve are indeed a drop in the ocean. We know exactly where the bulk of the land is concentrated.  


The bulk of South Africa is concentrated in the few male white minority. As the hon leader of DA, hon Maimane, has said, that indeed to push this poverty and inequality we’ll have to make sure that these highly concentrated riches need to be redistributed. I indeed agree with this leader of the DA.  
  
The infighting in the majority of the Communal Property Association, CPA, impedes socio-economic progress in farming. The government cannot be expected to be the conflict resolution agent; it is the responsibility of all the beneficiaries to make sure that they work in a cordial way.  
  
We should equally condemn those who are selling back the land without consulting the beneficiaries and buying taxis. For example, coming from the Eastern Cape to have a taxi business here in the Western Cape; that needs to be condemned.  
  
The following best performing CPA per province [Interjections.] We have a case of the best performer per province, in terms of the CPA. It’s not all that are not doing well if you go to province per province.  


In the Eastern Cape we have Fayi CPA which is one of those that are doing well; Amatshezi and Delindlala [Interjection.] Through you, hon Chair ... [Interjection.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Don’t listen to them hon speaker.  
  
_Setswana:_  
  
Rre O J SEFAKO: Ditsebe ga di na sekhurumelo. [Setshego.] Go budulala ga se gore o robetse; ga ke tle go kopa boroko ka go budulala.  
  
_English:_  
  
The trust, like I’ve indicated, is only a drop in an ocean. We know where a high concentration of land is. The trust, are all those that are already in the kraal, you can work on them. We must go all out to ensure that this high concentration of the land should be equitably redistributed to the poor.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes, including the trust. [Applause.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele and hon Koni, order!  


_Setswana:_  
  
Rre O J SEFAKO: Modulasetilo, a ke go leboge, ke lebogele sebaka mme ke be ke re nama ke go tlole ga e ke e ganwa, lemme ga le bolaye go bolaya lefifi. Tekanyetsokabo eno, fa re ka e dirisa ka botswerere le manontlhotlho e tla fitlhelela setšhaba sa Aforika Borwa, e be e ye go fitlhelela kwa gabo Mokwele ko Pitsedisulejang, ko Limpopo, KwaZulu, Kapa Botlhaba, gotlhe. Se se leng teng ke gore a letsogo kobong le se ke la nna teng; e tle e fitlhelele, e baakanye mme e tokafatse matshelo a Maaforika Borwa.  
  
Re le ANC re tshegetsa Ditekanyetsokabo tse pedi tseno. Ke a go leboga. [Legofi.]  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chair, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, members, public in the gallery and fellow South Africans, dumelang, habshee, nda di masiare, goeie middag, and a good afternoon to you all. I am pleased to present to you the DA alternative - an alternative that will focus on job creation, economic growth and investor confidence in our beautiful country with its beautiful people and natural resources. [Interjections.]  
  
South Africans are fed-up with all the negativity that is brought by the current corrupt, infested ANC government, like the economic and  


political instability, the policy flip-flopping and chronic job losses.  
  
Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, on a point of order: The member is misleading the public and the House with his assertion that he has just made about the ANC government and I ask him to either withdraw or to apologise. He is casting aspersions on the ANC government that he cannot substantiate. [Interjections.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Hon Makue, you will get your chance to come to the podium. During your debate, you can then address the issue. Let us allow the hon member to continue with the debate.  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: As I said, South Africans are fed up with all the negativity that is brought by the current corrupt, infested ANC government, like the economic and political instability, the policy flip-flopping and chronic job losses. Just yesterday, it was announced that the economy shrunk by 2,2% in the first quarter of this year and the biggest negative contributor was the agricultural sector, which plunged by 24,7%.  
  
We have nine and a half million South Africans who are sitting at home with no hope! This is scandalous! We should all feel angry  


about this. I do! South Africans need hope; they need to dream again of a prosperous South Africa that will make them feel proud and wanted. [Interjections.]  
  
Dear South Africans, I know you were looking forward to the false dawn promised in the beginning of this year by the new President, but truth be told, it is actually a sunset.  
  
The real new dawn can only be under a DA-led government, and it can be yours in 2019, with total change that brings jobs and economic growth. The DA will build one South Africa for all, where all South Africans actually become land owners, with title deeds and not simply, tenants of the state.  
  
Don’t be fooled by the populist EFF and flip-flopping ANC who promises to give you land. [Interjections.]  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, on a point of order: ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): What is your point of order?  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Firstly, I don’t care whether he calls us populists. The fact of the matter is that it is through the EFF that the matter  


of expropriation of land without compensation ... It is us who made it clear that we want our land and we want the ... [Interjections.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, can you please listen to me? Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele, that is not a point of order. You are debating. You know that it is totally wrong. Take your seat, hon Mokwele. Hon Mokwele, take your seat. I have ruled on the matter. I want to continue with the business of the day. Hon Mokwele, you cannot argue with the Chairperson.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, on a point of privilege: ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): What is the point of privilege?  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, on a point of privilege: It is clear that the white people have stolen our land and we ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are debating, hon Mokwele. [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele, you are debating. Take your seat, hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! Hon Essack! No, you cannot do that. [Interjections.] You cannot continue to do that, hon Essack. Hon Mokwele, that was not a point of order. No, it was not a  


point of privilege! You are debating from the chair. Okay, let’s continue. [Interjections.] Hon Chabangu, you are now joining hon Mokwele.  
  
Mr M M CHABANGU: Chairperson, I am not joining.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, why are you standing?  
  
Mr M M CHABANGU: The hon member there ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Chabangu, why are you standing?  
  
Mr M M CHABANGU: Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon member is misleading the nation. It has been agreed in principle that the land is going to be expropriated ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are debating, hon Chabangu. That is not correct.  
  
Mr M M CHABANGU: ... by Parliament. Amandla!  


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are debating, hon Chabangu. That is not correct. Continue, hon Smit. [Interjections.] Hon Faber, I want to continue.  
  
Mr W F FABER: I just want to help you, Chairperson.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Help me with what?  
  
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, the decorum ... [Interjections.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon members! Order! [Interjections.] Order! He knows that he cannot help me. Hon Faber, you know that you cannot help me. Take your seat. We are done with the matter. [Interjections.]  
  
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, on a point of order: When hon Modise was here, there was a ruling that, when people stand up to try and prevent the decorum of this House and it gets to chaos, she will cut off the speaker, if the speaker is not listening. We had this problem with the EFF previously and hon Modise said that she will stop this.  


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): That is not a point of order, hon member. It is not a point of order. Take your seat. Continue, hon Smit.  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, before I continue, on a point of order: Hon Mokwele was accusing me of stealing land. I want you to rule on that, please.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, I want to hear what the hon member is saying.  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, on a point of order: Hon Mokwele accused me of stealing land. I want you to rule on that.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, you accused hon Smit of stealing the land. I did not hear that one.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: It is in history that they came in 1652 – white people – and they took our land.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No, we are not talking about history.  


Ms T J MOKWELE: They stole it. They were giving our forefathers mirrors and knives. It is in history. It is recorded. If he wants me to withdraw the truth, I will withdraw the truth. It is the truth, but I am withdrawing. He knows that it is the truth, but I withdraw.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! Please, withdraw, hon Mokwele.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: I withdraw the truth.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much. I want to close this matter. The hon member has withdrawn. Hon Smit, continue with the debate. [Interjections.] Hon Labuschagne, I am not going to continue with a point of order on this one. I now want to continue. Please, take your seat. We are done with the matter.  
Continue, hon Smit. She has withdrawn. [Interjections.]  
  
Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson, it is not necessarily ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Stock, order!  
  
Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson, it is not necessarily a point of order. However, it is a call of concern. We cannot afford a situation where the House is degenerating like this. As much as you are entertaining  


the point of order, you must ensure that you are more decisive and that you do not entertain frivolous points of order, please.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, you spoke at the wrong time. We are done with the matter. The hon member was at the podium to continue with the debate. So, you are taking us back.  
Continue, hon Smit.  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: Chair, please, update the time. I don’t have the time here in front of me. [Interjections.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Smit, I have a clock. That is why I was reminding the members of the time left.  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: Yes, but I just want to know how much time I have left.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Remember, when there is a point of order, we stop the watch. They are still rectifying it. You are left with nine minutes. [Interjections.]  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you. As I said, South Africans, don’t be fooled by the populist EFF and the flip-flopping ANC who promises to give you land. They are actually just using you to get total control of  


all the land, so that they can grab the best pieces for themselves and their cronies.  
  
They are not planning to give you ownership of any land. They want to use the land to control you, because you will only become a tenant of their land and will pay them rent for it. They will determine who gets the land, how you may use it, for how long and how much rent you must pay every month.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Don’t take your seat, hon Smit.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, on a point of order: ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, I am not going to allow you to continue debating from the floor.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: But you cannot allow Smit to mislead South Africa.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No, hon Mokwele, listen to me.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Smit is misleading South Africa.  


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, I am not going to allow you to continue debating from the floor. You will have your  
... It is his time to debate. Hon Mokwele, take your seat! Take your seat, hon Mokwele! I am giving you a warning, hon Mokwele. If you continue to do this, I am going to request you to go out. I want to continue with the business of the day now.  
  
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, on a point of order: ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale):Hon Julius, what is your point of order?  
  
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, on a point of order: Last time, you sat there, I did almost nothing, but you sent me out. Hon Mokwele is disrupting the House since we ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Julius, you know very well that you were wrong that time when I asked you to go out. We are now done with the matter and you want to take us back. We cannot allow that. Please, allow the House to continue, hon Julius. Hon Julius, I am addressing you. Continue, hon Smit.  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: And they can take it away from you at any time because it is not yours.  


Let’s just look at what they are already doing with RDP houses, EPWP jobs, jobs at the municipalities, food parcels and tenders, which they already control.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Smit, your leader is standing. Why are you standing, hon Labuschagne?  
  
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Labuschagne, why are you standing?  
  
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: (Ms C LABUSCHAGNE): Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: The decorum of this House for the past 15 minutes was terrible. We cannot continue like this.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Labuschagne, that is not a point of order!  
  
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: That is the point of order!  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Labuschagne, that is not a point of order! I have addressed the matter. Please, take your seat. Hon Labuschagne, please, take your seat. If you don’t want to  


take your seat, ... Hon Labuschagne, please, take your seat! [Interjections.] I am switching off the microphone because you are out of order. Hon Labuschagne, please, take your seat! Hon Labuschagne, please, take your seat! Order! Hon Labuschagne, please, take your seat! If you don’t want to take your seat, I will request you to go out. [Interjections.] If you don’t want to listen to the Chair, I am going to request you to go out. [Interjections.] Hon Labuschagne, for the last time, please, take your seat! [Interjections.] So, do, you want to join them in disrupting the House? Hon Labuschagne, please, take your seat! I am requesting you to go out now. Hon Labuschagne, go out! We want you to continue! [Interjections.] Usher, please, assist me. Hon Labuschagne is refusing to go out. [Interjections.] Hon Labuschagne continues to refuse. Can I please ask you to look for an assistant? [Interjections.] Order, hon Koni and hon Mokwele! [Interjections.] Hon Koni and hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele, I am going to ask you to delete what you were doing now with your phone. Please, delete. You cannot do that in the House.  
  
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: Really, Chairperson, I think it’s proper to allow the person to tell you exactly what the point of order is. You haven’t done that, Chairperson, and really, we cannot go on in this way. I am appealing to you to allow the people, whoever they are, whether it is the EFF  


or the DA, or whoever, just allow us to make our points of order. Then you can rule on that, but we cannot go on like this. Thank you, Chairperson.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Terblanche, you are debating my ruling. I listened to the hon member. She did not rise on a point of order. I ruled on the matter. So, you are totally out of order. If ever we are still going to speak on the very same matter, hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana, I will request you to allow the House to continue. [Interjections.]  
  
Mr F ESSACK: This would never happen if the hon Modise were here!  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Hey, hey, hey ... [Inaudible.]  
  
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Chairperson ... [Interjections.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon members! Hon Essack! Hon Essack, the hon member is on the floor and she is protected.  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: We want our land back!  


Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Chairperson, I was going to ask you and plead with you to be consistent in your rulings. Irrespective of party affiliation, you must treat us equally. You seem to be biased. You are doing one thing to a member of a party and something else to another. I want equality from you as presiding officer, along racial  
...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana, thank you very much. You are totally out of order and you are accusing me. I am consistent. [Interjections.] Hon Faber?  
  
Mr F ESSACK: Consistent? If you were consistent, Mokwele would be  
  
... [Interjections.]  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: No! Withdraw!  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Faber? The hon member is protected. Hon Faber? [Interjections.]  
  
Mr F ESSACK: The hon Mokwele would have been out of the House a long time ago if you were consistent!  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, and you, hon Essack, allow the hon Faber to say whatever he wants to say.  


Mr W F FABER: Thank you. Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon Julius was saying that he was removed by you when ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Let me remind you. Let me remind you, then. The hon Julius called the member who was debating “a stupid”. That is unparliamentary and that is why he left the House. Can we please ...  
  
Mr W F FABER: Right.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M D Dikgale): Can we please proceed?  
  
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, can I just ... Can I just ... [Interjections.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I wanted to remind ... You see? Look at what he is doing!  
  
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson ... Chairperson ... when the hon Julius was addressing you ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order!  


Mr W F FABER: ... you were switching his microphone off during his point of order ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Because I heard what he was saying.  
  
Mr W F FABER: No, Chairperson, you did not hear him.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Now, what is your point of order? I am still waiting to hear your point of order.  
  
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, the leader ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I have recognised you.  
  
Mr W F FABER: The leader of the DA was trying to make a point of order. You cut her off, as well. When the hon member of the EFF was talking, you left the microphone on. [Interjections.] You left it on, Chairperson. That is inconsistent ... [Interjections.] ... and Chairperson, I cannot stand under your leadership as Chairperson when the House is run like this. [Interjections.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Order! Hon Faber ...  


Mr W F FABER: Chairperson? [Interjections.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Faber ... [Interjections.]  
  
Mr F ESSACK: When a member is on his feet, are you going to allow this circus, here?  
  
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, you are not consistent ... [Interjections.]  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Who are you calling a circus? [Interjections.]  
  
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, you allow ... [Interjections.] ... you are allowing the decorum of this House ... It’s been going on ... the hon Labuschagne tried to help ... [Interjections.] ... but, hon Chair, you allow this to go on, and I will not sit in the House under these regulations.  
  
[TOTAL BREAKDOWN IN AUDIO BETWEEN AND 15:25:37 AND 15:25:54]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): The hon members are still  
  
... Hon Essack, it’s your turn. It’s your turn, hon Essack! Please stand up and say whatever it is you want to say. [Interjections.]  


Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! I’m giving you your last warning. If you continue to do that, you will leave. [Interjections.]  
  
Mr F ESSACK: [Laughter.] Chairperson, with absolute ...  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele! [Interjections.] Hon Essack, continue. [Interjections.] Hon Essack?  
  
Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson ...  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]  
  
Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson ... [Interjections.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Continue, hon Essack. [Interjections.]  
  
Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, I’m trying to continue. If you could just get these people to calm down so I can make my point of order. With due respect to the decorum of the House ...  


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are protected, hon Essack. Continue.  
  
Mr F ESSACK: ... and for your position as Chair, you, Madam Chair, are allowing and have allowed this House to degenerate. Accept that, please.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack ...  
  
Mr F ESSACK: All we are asking you is to take control ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, that is not a point of order.  
  
Mr F ESSACK: ... and those of us that are out of control ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): It is not a point of order.  
  
Mr F ESSACK: Then, what is a point of order?  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): It’s the same matter that your hon members were complaining about.  


Mr F ESSACK: Yes, but you’re shutting us up. One at a time, you’re shutting us down, and you’re probably going to switch off my microphone now. What you do want us to do?  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): If you continue to do that, I will switch off the microphone.  
  
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, do you think that the decisions you’ve been making are consistent? That is all I want to ask you.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I am not going to respond.  
  
Mr F ESSACK: I am not debating with you. You decide.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I am not going to respond to that.  
  
Mr F ESSACK: Why? Why not?  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You know the procedure. If ever you don’t want to take whatever I am doing here, please, follow the correct procedure, hon Essack. The hon Julius?  


Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you, presiding officer. I suggest that the Whip take action in this House and remove you as presiding officer. You have been biased. You’ve been compromising other members on behalf of or to the benefit of the EFF. Three members have been disrupting this House the whole day. [Interjections.] I think the Whip must take charge and remove you. We can get a better, competent presiding officer. This debate is very important for South Africans because land is an emotive issue. You are disrupting this House and I think, deliberately, because you are afraid to take charge of the hon Mokwele. You are molly-coddling the EFF ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Julius ...  
  
Mr J W W JULIUS: [Inaudible.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Julius ... Hon Julius, you are attacking the integrity of the Chair. Hon Julius, I am going to request you to take your seat. We are done with the matter. You know the procedure. Hon member, you are the last one.  
  
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order in terms of Rule 53: According to Rule 53, a member may speak in the Council to a point of order. The hon Labuschagne was standing on a point of order, and Chairperson, you refused to allow her to speak. So, I  


would like to refer your ruling to the Committees on Rules and Ethics, please Chair, and that you could then be consistent with your Rules, because the EFF should have been removed when they were disruptive ... [Interjections.]  
  
Then, Chair, allow me to go to Rule 37: A presiding officer may order a member to leave the Chamber if a member is deliberately contravening a provision – which the hon Labuschagne did not do; if a member is in contempt or disregarding the authority of the Chair – which the EFF has been doing the whole afternoon and you have not ruled on them; and when a member’s conduct is grossly disorderly – which is an exact example of the EFF, and you have not acted on that. So, can we please refer this to the Committees on Rules and Ethics?  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, Rule 53 states that a member may speak in the Council (a) when called by the officer presiding – which I did; and (b) to a point of order. The hon Labuschagne was debating from the floor. [Interjections.] We are continuing. Continue, hon Smit.  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: Chair, let’s just look at what they are already doing with RDP houses, Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, jobs, jobs at the municipalities, food parcels and tenders, which they already  


control. They use it to manipulate the people and enrich themselves. [Interjections.]  
  
You only get any of the above if you pay bribes – tjotjo – are a close friend or relative, are a part of the politically connected elite or, even worse, offer sex in exchange for favours. With this in mind, can you imagine what would happen if the same people have the power to say who gets the land and for how long? The DA says no! [Interjections.]  
  
We will ensure that every family gets at least one title deed.  
  
Mr J P PARKIES: Chairperson, on a point of order: I want you to rule on the statement of sexual favours. The sordid behaviour of an individual cannot be generalised to the ANC because the first statement by the hon member at the podium was referring to the ANC. I want you to rule on that.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Let me ascertain first. Were you referring to the ANC, hon Smit?  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: Chair, I was referring to government and the function within government.  


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright. So, you are referring to the ANC?  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: No, it is in government.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): So, you are referring to the government. You are not referring to the party.  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: Chair, may I repeat what I said?  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Please.  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: I said the following: You only get any of the above if you pay a bribe – tjotjo – or are a close friend or relative, a part of the politically connected elite or, even worse, offer sex in exchange for favours. That is a reality, Chair. That is a reality.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright, continue. I will come back with a ruling.  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: With this kept in mind, can you imagine what would happen if the same people have the power to say who gets the land and for how long? The DA says no! We will ensure that every family gets at least one title deed under the slogan, “One title deed, one  


family, and one family, one title deed”. In tribal areas, the people will also get a title deed with full ownership of the residential stand and not just occupation rights but actual ownership. A DA-led government will ensure ...  
  
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, I would like to know whether the hon Smit is willing to take a question.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Let’s ascertain first. Hon Smit? He is not ready, hon Mokwele. Continue, sir.  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: She has been disrupting me the whole day. [Laughter.] Something is hurting very deep inside. [Interjections.] A DA-led government will ensure proper rural development by investing in massive infrastructure development like railway lines, proper roads and communication networks that link rural communities to towns and cities. Just imagine there is a train station close to you in your village with a railway line that links you to other villages, farming areas, mines, towns, cities, industrial areas and international ports. This will make it possible for you to either start a small business all along this railway network or transport your products to areas where they can be sold easily. If you want to go and look for a job in the cities, you can easily jump on the train and come back home regularly.  


This is the dream the DA has for our rural communities, where you also become an insider, a working individual that can look after your own family, build your own house ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mathevula, you cannot join them.  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: ... and even later buy your own car and have full ownership of everything you worked for. A DA-led government will ensure that rural communities feel safe where they live or work by establishing reliable rural safety units and proper policing services. We can no longer stand by whilst our farmers, farm workers and rural villagers are robbed, tortured and murdered. It is outrageous that we are hearing about these gruesome crimes on a weekly basis.  
  
Hon Ministers, year in and year out, we see how your budget is being cut, and this is becoming a phenomenon. It is clear that the ANC is not serious about agriculture, forestry and fisheries or rural development and land reform. In fact, the ANC does not care about the welfare of our rural communities. They only use them for their votes. Well, I have news for the ANC: These communities are starting to see right through you, and they are moving away from you at an alarming rate. They can see you are not taking them seriously.  


Let’s just look at land reform as an example. At the current rate and budget allocation, it will take the ANC-led government more than  
200 years to finalise the new claims, and that can only happen after another 10 years from now of finalising the old, outstanding claims  
– this whilst the ANC-led government spends more money annually on VIP protection services than land reform. The DA will ensure that we put the money where our mouths are and invest much more money in the highly important and emotive issue in our quest to fast-track reconciliation in a truly fair South African society. We will also make use of the opportunity to distribute underutilised and vacant state-owned land, of which there is 20 million hectares, amongst South Africans without property. This will go hand in hand with a title deed and all the necessary services.  
  
The fisheries sector remains a disaster. The ANC has a terrible record when it comes to the administration of the fisheries sector. These fishing communities are failed at all levels, this due to greed and corruption under the ANC. This is why the DA will see to it that fishers get individual fishing rights with proper access to markets to sell their catch. This will give them the dignity and a sense of independence and control over their livelihood. We will also invest in salt water and fresh water aquaculture initiatives, as well as hydroponics, to give these communities alternatives and to keep up with the demand of fishing products, as well as to curb  


depleting natural fishing stocks, another consequence of the ANC’s maladministration of this critical industry.  
  
Fellow South Africa, let’s have hope again. Let’s dream big again. Let us build one South Africa for all – 2019 is our chance. Thank you. [Applause.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Parkies, on your point of order, the hon member unfortunately made a generic statement because he did not refer to the name of the political party. So, we continue. Hon members, I want you to note there are some changes on the Speaker’s list. Number five will be the hon Gaehler. Number seven is going to be the hon Koni. Number nine has been cancelled. Number 13 is the hon Khawula. I now call on the hon Gaehler.  
  
_IsiXhosa:_  
  
Mnu L B GAEHLER: Sihlalo, mandikubulise. Andiqinisekanga nokuba ndiphi na; nokuba ndisepotsoyini namhlanje, andikaqiniseki kakuhle.  
  
_English:_  
  
Hon Chairperson, I will go direct to the hon Minister Zokwana, “umkhaya wami”. The 2018 budget allocation for piggery projects is skewed towards certain provinces at the expense of the poor  


provinces. The Eastern Cape is one of the provinces that has been neglected this year.  
  
_IsiXhosa:_  
  
Mphathiswa, uyazazi iihaku eMpuma Koloni. Iqawuka uyalazi ukuba abantu baphaya bayalithanda. Abantu bayathanda ukuzifuya iihaku. Kuyafuneka ukuba uyijonge ukuze uncedise amafama asakhulayo ngale nto.  
  
_English:_  
  
Secondly, regarding the allocation of funds for irrigation schemes: I’ve been monitoring this for the past couple of years. Basically, in the Eastern Cape, you’ve been dealing with two irrigation schemes, which are Qamata and Keiskammahoek. The question is: What about the other areas in the province? You know very well that it is a very poor province. One would suggest that these resources be spread all over the province. We advised that the starting point may be to revamp collapsed schemes across the province. There are quite a lot of them from the former Transkei, Ciskei, Bophuthatswana and Venda states, or TCBV states. You know that very well. It would be very good to revamp them, while assisting the emerging ones. It is futile to encourage small, emerging farmers when they are unable to access the very basic requirement of water. You cannot expect ...  


_IsiXhosa:_  
  
... abantu ukuba baphumelele, Mphathiswa.  
  
_English:_  
  
Let us be fair about that.  
  
Regarding aquiculture: I think I spoke to you last time and in previous years ...  
  
_IsiXhosa:_  
  
... abanye babengekafiki kwa ukufika apha; noMphathiswa wokuqala. Ingxaki yami kolu shishino lukulima nokufuya kwasemanzini kukuba phaya eMpuma Koloni kukho iHamburg Oyster Farm iphinde kubeseBhayi.  
  
_English:_  
  
What about the big oceans?  
  
_IsiXhosa:_  
  
Olona lwandle lunabantu abahluphekayo – ukusukela eMonti ukuya kuthi gaa ngaphaya kooLusikisiki.  
  
_English:_  


What plans ... Let’s forget about the plans. When are you going to allocate projects to those areas, because there you are dealing with the poorest of the poor?  
  
With regard to land care projects, the allocation of R10,9 million  
  
...  
  
_IsiXhosa:_  
  
... hayi, ayikho, Mphathiswa. Umhlaba uphelile. Iindonga uyazazi nawe njengoba uhleli phaya. Ukuba uhamba ngapha kooNgcobo, zindonga kuphela.  
  
_English:_  
  
They can create jobs as well – these land care projects.  
  
_IsiXhosa:_  
  
Sicinga ukuba noko ungathetha nabaphetheyo ukuba bayiqwalasele loo nto leyo. Sidlule ke bantu bakuthi. Sidlule singxamile kuba ixesha alikho apha.  
  
_English:_  
  
The expropriation of land without compensation is supported by the UDM. Furthermore, we say that the economy of this country cannot remain skewed towards a certain minority. We cannot allow that. That  


cannot be allowed. That is why the UDM is calling for an economy indaba. Furthermore ...  
  
_IsiXhosa:_  
  
Ningamasebe bantu bakuthi ...  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are left with two minutes, hon member.  
  
_IsiXhosa:_  
  
Mnu L B GAEHLER: Alikho apha ixesha ke mama. Uyandibetha. Kodwa andinaxesha.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): That is why I am reminding you.  
  
_IsiXhosa:_  
  
Mnu L B GAEHLER: Ngakumbi, ukuba niyakhumbula ngowe-1948 ukuthatha kwamabhulu ulawulo, babehlupheka kakhulu kodwa bakwazi ukuba banyusele abantu babo.  
  
_English:_  
  
They gave them schemes where they got lower rates at the banks. That is what you should be doing.  


Lastly, when you give big projects to the big fish, they swallow the small guy, which you encourage as subcontractors. Let the subcontractors end and deal directly with our people. Don’t make them subcontract to those big companies.  
  
_IsiXhosa:_  
  
Ndiyanqena ukuzibiza apha eqongeni. Kodwa injalo ke, Mphathiswa Okokuqibela, ...  
  
_English:_  
  
... land claims, Minister. Go to the people. Do not rely on your officials.  
  
_IsiXhosa:_  
  
Ziyakuqhatha.  
  
_English:_  
  
We communicate together. Please go the people. What is happening down there is very, very bad.  
  
_IsiXhosa:_  
  
Ndiyakucela, mnta’kaSkwatsha, yiyani, Sekela Mphathiswa, nithethe nabantu bethu. Abantu bethu bayahlupheka. Umhlaba wabo uyaphela. Enkosi.  


Mr R T MTHEMBU (KwaZulu-Natal: MEC Agriculture and Rural Development): Thanks hon Chairperson. Hon Chairperson, Ms Thandi Modise, members of the NCOP, hon Minister of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries Senzeni Zokwana, hon Minister of the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform, the hon Nkoana- Mashabane, all Deputy Ministers, all MECs who are present here, special delegates, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen.  
  
As I begin, allow me to remind us all of the ideals of freedom as was pronounced in the 1955 Freedom Charter by the Congress of the People. I quote:  
  
We, the People of South Africa, declare for all our country and the world to know: That South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, and that no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of all the people;  
  
That our people have been robbed of their birthright to land and, liberty and peace by a form of government founded on injustices and inequality.  
  
On land it was declared I quote:  


The land shall be shared among those who work in it; restrictions of land ownership on a racial basis shall be ended, and all the land re-divided amongst those who work it to banish famine and land hunger;  
  
The state shall help the peasants with implements, seed, tractors and dams to save the soil and assist the tillers; Freedom of movement shall be guaranteed to all who work on the land; All shall have the right to occupy land wherever they choose; People shall not be robbed of their cattle, and forced labour and farm prisons shall be abolished.  
  
It was further this democratic government who in the Reconstruction Development Programme, RDP of 1994, decisively anchored that:  
  
No political democracy can survive and flourish if the mass of our people remain in poverty, without and, without tangible prospects for a better life.  
  
What becomes clear through both these directives and commitments is that radical economic transformation will require a bold and robust change in the ownership of land.  


We must constantly be mindful that failure to resolve the question of land will translate into our failure to address the crippling challenges of poverty, inequality and joblessness amongst the poor and the previously disadvantaged people of South Africa.  
  
As per the resolutions of the 54th ANC Conference, I quote:  
  
We must pursue with greater determination the programme of land reform and rural development as part of the programme of radical socio-economic transformation.  
  
Expropriation of land without compensation should be among the key mechanisms available to government to give effect to land reform and redistribution.  
  
The Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform, the hon Maite Nkoana-Mashabane during the delivery of her 2018 departmental budget speech was accurate in articulating that the land issue must be addressed hand-in-hand with the inexcusable lack of access to water by the majority of black, rural and previously disadvantaged communities in our country.  
  
We must in addition applaud the announcement made by the hon Nkoane- Mashabane to introduce the Regulation of Agricultural Land Bill.  


This Bill will in the long run, speed up land reform, avail land to the poor and previously disadvantaged and redistribute wealth by introducing land ceilings on agricultural land.  
  
Hon Chairperson, The KwaZulu-Natal Department of Agriculture and Rural Development, is currently engaged in the development of an Agricultural Development Master Plan for the province.  
  
We therefore welcome the release of Phase 1 of the Private land audit, which was a part of the state land audit of 2012 as these outcomes will fundamentally assist us in ensuring the Master Plan is an all-encompassing plan that will function as a vehicle to drive and position agriculture as a catalyst for growth and economic development in the province.  
  
As was shared by the Minister for Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, the hon Senzeni Zokwana, in his 2018 Budget Vote Speech, the Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries sector in the South African economy sustained growth despite decreasing budget allocations and the persistent drought in some parts of the country.  
  
In the fourth quarter of 2017 South Africa experienced the highest growth rate with the economy expanding by 3,1% quarter-on-quarter  


and agriculture contributed 0,8% to the 3,1% growth in the country’s gross domestic product.  
  
It was this significant contribution to the GDP at a consistent rate that aided the South African economy out of a technical recession.  
Given this, it is therefore suffices to say, the agricultural sector must be made a key national priority as was undertaken in the African Unions 2003 Maputo Declaration on Agriculture and Food Security.  
  
African Heads of State and Governments inclusive of South Africa committed 10 percent of budget allocations to agriculture and rural development policy implementation within 5 years. A commitment we are yet to meet.  
  
Hon Chairperson, as the KZN Department of Agriculture and Rural Development we are in agreement with the hon Mr Zokwana that highest levels of agricultural productivity in South Africa can be realised through substantial investment in agricultural research and development that consecutively promotes equitable growth in the sector.  
  
Proof of such investment is evident in our department through the growth of the Juncao Mushroom programme which was largely  


facilitated through a collaboration between our Research and Development unit and the People’s Republic of China.  
  
It is also relevant to note that as a province we have already committed in this financial year that we will strengthen our research and development facilities in the department and ensure that they are relevant and accessible to particularly marginalised and previously disadvantaged communities. This will also respond to our concentration on strategies and programmes of the indigenous and traditional crop massification.  
  
Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, Aquaculture and in-land fishing presents particularly rural communities with a vehicle for food security, poverty reduction, job creation and rural development. As the KZN province we await with great enthusiasm the speedy finalisation of the Aquaculture Bill recently presented to the Cabinet.  
  
As this will propel our intentions to build a sustainable aquaculture industry that will substantially support our food and nutrition security strategy in the province.  
  
We will play a leading role in the support of the national Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries in increasing the  


aquaculture production to twenty thousand tonnes thus creating an additional 2500 direct jobs and 15 thousand jobs in the value chain by 2019. In-land fishing has proven a challenge for many of our poor and protein deficient people in KwaZulu-Natal.  
  
We were recently shocked by the reports of a young man who was murdered while searching for bait to fish in a dam situated inside a farm in Eshowe. This was a man fishing for subsistence purposes as he comes from a household where nobody is employed. Similar incidences have been reported in other parts of the province.  
  
It is therefore for this reason that we continue to make a clarion call for the immediate transformation of the sector to accommodate the poor and previously marginalised.  
  
We view the national departments working for Fisheries Programme as a positive step towards the transformation of the fishing sector in its entirety.  
  
Hon Chairperson, as said by the hon Zokwana, governments investment into the agriculture to create a favourable and supportive environment for farmers particularly subsistence and smallholder producers have not yielded the desired outcomes of ensuring the  


meaningful participation of black producers in the agricultural, forestry and fisheries value chains.  
  
In KwaZulu-Natal, we began a process to rationalise and amalgamate entities as per Cabinet resolution. This process will be completed in the current financial year.  
  
In closing, allow me to express our relentless support to both the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, the hon Senzeni Zokwana and the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform the hon Maite Nkoana-Mashabane.  
  
As a province, we remain committed to the obligation to ensure that we honour the former President Nelson Mandela and Mam uAlbertina Sisulu by continuing with an agrarian revolution and a rural development strategy that will change the lives of the people we serve in a meaningful way. With that input, we support both Budget Votes. I thank you. [Applause.]  
  
_Setswana:_  
  
Moh N P KONI: Modulasetilo, ke rata go tsaya tshono eno go dumedisa MaAforikaborwa ka bophara segolobogolo balwantwa ba mokgatlho wa EFF ba ba tletseng diporofense tse robongwe. Motl modulasetilo, ngangisano ya gompieno e bua thata ka lefatshe. Re ka se dire ka  


ditlhapi, dikgwa le temothuo kwa ntle ga lefatshe. Ke ka moo gompieno re bonang mmala le difatlhego tsa batho ba ba rileng mo Ntlong eno di fetoga  
  
 _English:_  
  
At its land summit two weeks ago, the ANC suggested that it was a possibility that it would not support the amending of the Constitution so that land can be expropriated without compensation. This is therefore the perfect time to remind the ANC and all other parties in this House who have yet to be convinced – I think it’s one party beside the ANC - why the Constitution must be amended so that land can be expropriated without compensation.  
  
Since 1652 white colonialists have stolen the land of our people, it started in the Cape, and that is a fact Followed by wars of conquest where throughout the country, white settlers took land despite fierce resistance, by the barrels of their guns. This process of land dispossession slowly became legalised and one of the first pieces of legislation passed was the Glen Grey Act of 1894.  
  
The Glen Grey Act was followed by the Natives Land Act of 1913, which legally enshrined the unequal ownership of land in this country with the African majority limited to only 7% of all land in South Africa. The Urban Areas Act was passed in 1923 to prevent  


Africans from owning land in urban areas of South Africa, followed by the Native Trust Land Act and the Group Areas Act.  
  
The Group Areas Act of 1950 was the final piece of legislation that solidified the legal possession of stolen land. These wars and laws saw theft of the land of our people across all nine provinces of this country. When the ANC took power in 1994 it agreed to the principle of willing seller to address the consequences of the theft of our land. Since then the South African government has spent billions of rands buying back stolen land.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Koni, please take your seat! Over to you, hon Smit!  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, I just want to hear if the hon Koni is prepared to take a question from me?  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Koni, are you prepared to take a question?  
  
Ms N P KONI: Yes!  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): She’s ready!  


Mr C F B SMIT: Can you please tell us and South Africa, who is your people and who is not your people?  
  
Ms N P KONI: That is not a question. But let me just give him an answer. Our people is the hopeless, the poor of the poorest. That’s our people! Thank you. [Applause.] Twenty-four years later, the ANC has nothing to show for this. The 2017 ... [Interjections.]  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are left with six seconds, mama!  
  
Ms N P KONI: Ma’am? Six seconds? I’ve got nine minutes. That one is wrong! Maybe I’ve got ... [Interjections.] Oh, thank you! This is the only crucial progressive debate in all these debates today!  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): It is five minutes!  
  
Ms N P KONI: Thank you! Twenty-four years later, the ANC has nothing to show for this. The 2017 Land Audit revealed once again how so little has changed, and how the current constitutional framework does not allow for meaningful land redistribution. The Land Audit found that 72% of private land in South Africa is owned by whites, 15% by coloureds, 5% by Indians, and 4% by blacks.  


If you go to provinces you get true idea of how bad the situation is, in the Northern Cape, where I come from, 94% of land is privately owned, in the Free State 91% of land is privately owned, in the Western Cape 89% of land is privately owned, in the North West 71% of land is privately owned, and this pattern repeats itself across our country. Therefore, we must put a stop to this. If the ANC cannot do it, we the EFF, will do it.  
  
If we continue within the current constitutional set up, it will take us hundreds of years before we see any meaningful land redistribution. As the EFF we believe in the idea of economic freedom in our lifetime, and we do not have a hundreds of years. It is why the first cardinal pillar of the EFF is, “Expropriation of South Africa’s land without compensation for equal redistribution.” And for this to happen, section 25 of the Constitution needs to be amended. We said we offer our 6% but you refuse.  
  
The expropriation of land by the state for equal redistribution will be fundamental to the total liberation of our people and our society as a whole. You just saw the behaviour of the elites in this House when we debate the issue of land, their behaviour! And will and must be of particular benefit to women of our country, who continue to be the most oppressed in our society. We are tired of our husbands having a title deed on their names. It must change!  


For only once, women of this country own our land will we be truly free. We therefore reject the Budget of the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform as a reminder to the ANC that it has failed to redistribute land and that the only way forward is expropriation of land without compensation, and no negotiations!  
  
We also reject the Budget of the Department of Agriculture Forestry and Fisheries, because – listen, Minister - the department and government have done nothing to realise the potential of agriculture in this country, not only because it has not expropriated land without compensation, but because the ANC has done too little to nothing to protect our agricultural industry.  
  
The industry is the most constricted of the industries we have in this country, where a few commercial farmers and agro-processing industries control the entire agrarian value chain. This starts at the level of control of the seed industry. The control of the seed industry is at the hands of Pannar and Monsanto, who controls about 90% of the commercial seed market in this country, giving them power to a large degree to determine seed access, type and cost in the country.  
  
At the farm level, we have seen a reduction of the number of farms, from over 60 O00 in 1993, to just about 35 000 today. This has been  


as a result of consolidation by those who have more money, and who can compete at a global level without government support and subsidies. 0nly 20% of these farms produce about 80% of the food we have as a nation, while the rest, including our communal farmers, produce less than 20% of the food we produce as a nation.  
  
0n top of expropriating land without compensation to redistribute land, government should have been protecting and supporting small- scale farmers, supporting them with input products such as seeds and equipment, while also giving them access to markets so that they can compete with large-scale commercial farmers. At the same time, government has to be placing tariffs on imported agricultural products so that our produce could compete with cheaper imported products.  
  
If this was done, it would benefit the small-scale fruit farmers in KwaZulu-Natal and Mpumalanga, the livestock farmers in the Free State and the Northern Cape, and the vegetable farmers in the Western Cape and Limpopo. But our government has never had the political will. It has continued with its failed neo-liberal economic approach to agriculture, this why we reject the Budget Vote of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries.  
  
_Setswana:_  


Tona, rre Nkwinti, re kopa tsenyotirisong; o tlogele go iakgola ...  
  
_English:_  
  
... for doing your job. You cannot praise a fish for swimming. Minister Nkoana-Mashabane, you spoke on the issue of not having land and people not having a place to be buried at, it’s even worse than that. I wanted you to say it on record that ...  
  
_Setswana:_  
  
... batho ba tlhakanela mabitla. Mokgosi o tlhakanela lebitla le Mokwele, Chabangu le Motlashuping. Rona re batho ba bantsho, fa go diragala jalo seriti sa rona se a nyenyefala. Gape rona ba bangwe re diragatsa meetlo ya rona, go tlhakanelwa ga mabitla go kgoreletsa ditiro tsa badimo gonne boMokwele ba tlhakane le boMokgosi, ka jalo, e nna tlhakatlhakano fela. Ntate Sefako, ke dumalana le wena ka kgang ya ...  
  
_English:_  
  
... expropriation of land without compensation.  
  
_Setswana:_  
  
Lo itsi gore kgang eno e tshisintswe ke mokgatlho wa EFF. Lo re bolelela ka Freedom Charter e lo e latlhetseng mo matlakaleng.  


Gompieno lo batla gape go tsoga lo ntse lo robetse gape lo taboge lo re ke lona ba ba tlileng le tshisinyo ya kgang eno. [Tsenoganong.]  
  
_English:_  
  
The EFF leads and that is a fact! [Time expired.]  
  
_Sepedi:_  
  
MODULASETULO WA NGWAKO (Moh M C Dikgale): Hon Koni, nako ya gago e fedile, le gona ka moo re na le hon Zokwana, e seng motl Tona Nkwinti.  
  
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair,  
  
...  
  
_IsiXhosa:_  
  
...abaphathiswa bobabini, iinkokeli utata uZokwana noMama uMaite Nkoana-Mashabane, ooSekela Mphathiswa bobaini, ubaba uSifiso Buthelezi noMama uMashego-Dlamini ...  
  
_English:_  
  
... members of the NCOP and all the members from the respective provinces, ladies and gentlemen, it has been a very difficult afternoon here in this House. I really want to join everybody and my colleagues to say that I am pleased to be amongst you, difficult as  


it is, participating in this critically important debate, which is about rural development and land reform and the question of land in particular.  
  
I want to give just a little bit of education for both the hon Smit and our hon members from the EFF. You see, you do not, hon Mokwele, need to apologise when you say the land was stolen. [Interjections.] In fact, you are being very, very tame. It’s incorrect. [Interjections.] The land was taken by brutal force.  
  
HON MEMBERS: Yes. [Interjections.]  
  
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: You see,  
  
anything that you steal, you steal when people cannot see you. Our forefathers were killed; they were made slaves in their own country. So, you can’t say it was stolen; it was taken by brutal force – and the Freedom Charter does address that.  
  
The ruling party is poised to address this historical matter once and for all, and everyone with an opinion is trying to influence us to do this on their own terms. Some people have crossed our borders, like the AfriForum, looking for foreign solutions to this matter, whilst others are actually playing to the gallery, trying to enhance their electoral prospects.  


Guided by the resolutions of the ruling party in Nasrec, in February 2018 the National Assembly passed a resolution that enabled the formation of the Constitutional Review Committee.  
  
His Excellency President Ramaphosa in January 2018, when he presented to the nation the January 8 statement on behalf of the ruling party, said: “This year, as we celebrate the centenary of the birth of Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela ... we shall redouble our efforts to build a society in which black poverty and white privilege are consigned to the past, replaced by respect, solidarity and nonracial equality.”  
  
As the ruling party, we have always argued that we should approach our work with revolutionary discipline and within the confines of the law. We say so not because we are cowards; we say so because we are building a country and we want peace in our country. We also say so because we know the effects of war. We know what it does to communities. That is why, in the preamble to our Constitution, you find the following paragraph:  
  
We, the people of South Africa, Recognise the injustices of our past;  
Honour those who suffered for justice and freedom in our land ...  


We therefore, through our freely elected representatives, adopt this Constitution as the supreme law of the Republic so as to –  
  
Heal the divisions of the past ...  
  
I invoke this declaration today to reach out to everybody and all parties represented in this House. The time is now for us to rise and embrace this process under review. The issue of the land must be addressed, whether one likes it or not.  
  
It is a known fact that the indigenous people of this country were dispossessed of their land, as I have already indicated. This “original sin”, as our President called it, was consolidated with the formation of the Union of South Africa in 1910 and ultimately with the passing of the Natives Land Act in 1913, as the hon Sefako indicated earlier.  
  
The late former President of the Republic Tat’uMadiba, in his speech on the occasion of the adoption of the Constitution in 1996, had this to say, and I quote: “We strike out along a new road, in which the preoccupation of elected representatives, at all levels of government, will be how to co-operate in the service of the people, rather than competing for power which otherwise belongs to the people.”  


It is our submission as the ruling party that now is another opportunity for us to walk side by side along this new road of exploring peaceful means of addressing the land question.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are left with four minutes, Deputy Minister.  
  
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: This year  
  
we are also celebrating the centenary of the birth of another icon: Mam’u Nontsikelelo Albertina Sisulu. In doing so, we want to make sure that South Africans participate in this particular process, and we must have no illusions: expropriation of land without compensation is going to happen in South Africa and we will do this not recklessly, not through land grabs but through providing land that is agriculturally correct and better housing for our people, so that we can create equality. We cannot allow a situation in South Africa where some die of hunger while others die of overeating ... [Interjections.] [Applause.] ... and such people get determined by the colour of their skins.  
  
So, ladies and gentlemen, I really want to join my Minister in saying: Let us move forward. Let us soldier on. Our people are intolerant and their intolerance is well understood. Let us make sure that, ultimately, what generations of generations have been  


yearning for is achieved in our lifetime, and we actually deliver a lasting solution for generations to come. I thank you. [Applause.]  
  
Ms Z V NCITHA: Hon Chair, our Ministers present - hon Zokwana and hon Mama ... [Interjections.] ... She is disturbing me again.  
  
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, allow the hon member to debate.  
  
Ms Z V NCITHA: Nkoana-Mashabane and all the Deputies present. Chair, let me first start by apologising profusely to members at the gallery and to those that are listening to us at home for what has happened in this House this afternoon. We promise you that we will be persuading each other and make sure that our Rules - we apply them in a manner that is really fitting us as honourables.  
  
Let me then go to my speech starting with hon Smit.  
  
_IsiXhosa:_  
  
Mntakwethu, ayisokuze itshintshe into yokuba umhlaba uza kuhamba uye ebantwini ukuze wabiwe ngokulinganayo.  
  
_English_ :  
  
That’s the resolution of the ANC that cannot change.  


_IsiXhosa:_  
  
Ndiyayiqonda ukuba yinto engekhomnandi le kodwa masivane ngaloo nto kuba iza kwenzeka. [Kwaqhwatywa.] Mandiye ngoku kulo mba wena uthi i-ANC akukhonto iyenzileyo.  
  
_English_ :  
  
We shall work to rekindle Madiba’s vision of a democratic society in which all citizens have equal opportunities to determine their own destiny. We shall achieve this not only through strengthening the instruments of representative and participatory democracy - but also by ensuring that people have economic opportunities and the ability to make choices about their own lives.  
  
This is the message from the ANC National Executive Committee, NEC, delivered in its 8 January 2018 statement has particular relevance to today’s Policy Budget Vote debate. This debate is about our people, their connectedness to the land, the sea and forests, and their economic struggle for a better life from natural endowments that our country is blessed with. As this will be the last occasion we debate the Budget Votes in the fifth Parliament. It would be important to evaluate where we come from, our achievements and together with our people, examine what informs budgets and programmes.  


We began our term of office with the mandate of the ANC 2014 Elections Manifesto, which laid out a five pillar programme. The first one is to increase investment in agricultural infrastructure in support of small holder farmer development; to expand the food for all programme as part of the national integrated food and nutrition policy for procuring and distributing affordable essential foodstuffs directly to poor communities; finalise and implement the Agricultural Policy Action Plan, strengthen agricultural production and agro industries, and promote food security; roll out and expand aquaculture projects both to enhance job creation and promote access to high protein food and, to strengthen agricultural college education through skills development funds.  
  
We can proudly say as the ANC that, on all five pillars of the ANC manifesto, we have made significant progress. The programme that emerged in response to food security, the Fetsa Tlala Integrated Food Production, aims to place one million hectares under production. The ANC government has increased the number of hectares under productive communal land with initial focus on the production of food staples such as maize, beans, potatoes, sunflower and vegetables. The latest production figures indicate a positive outlook.  


At household level, programmes continue to be introduced to reduce the number of people that are vulnerable to hunger. Food insecure households continue to be supported with starter packs for establishing food gardens and food gardens have been established across all regions in provinces. In order to improve land use in communal areas, projects continue to be implemented under the Animal and Veld Management Programme. The programme is aimed at soil rehabilitation, re-greening the environment and spatial decongestion.  
  
Existing programmes continue to be rolled out by both the Departments of Agricultural and the Department of Rural Development which cover farming implements, fencing, fertilizers, seeds, tractors and a range of services designed to meet specific requirements. Whilst the question of the lack of adequate extension officers has been a challenge, over the Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF there has been a steady increase in the intake of trainee extension officers in agricultural colleges.  
  
The irrigation strategy, aimed at increasing the number of hectares under irrigation by smallholder producers, as proposed in the National Development Plan, NDP is being expanded. Smallholder producers are supported through various initiatives including the Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme and Llima-Letsema. With  


regards to financing support, the intervention of Blended Finance in partnership with Land Bank lays out the strategic intervention on how blended financing for smallholder producers will be managed.  
Siyaqhuba!  
  
ANC resolved in its 2014 Manifesto that well trained and well equipped extension support cadres are critical to the support and success of smallholder farmers, development of rural villages and implementation of government policy. Subsequently, the system has been reinvigorated retraining existing extension officers, and integrating unemployed agricultural graduates into the system.  
  
Provincial Extension Co-ordinating Forums, PECFs are operational in all nine provinces, and these are aligned to the Agriculture Policy Action Plan key outputs on the development of platforms for knowledge sharing on best extension and farming practices. The Provincial Extension Co-ordinating Forums, PECFs enhance improved focus, collaboration and co-ordination between government institutions, organised agriculture, non-government organisations and civic associations that are involved with producer’s development programmes.  
  
On the progress on forestry and natural resource management, 100 hectares have been planted in temporary unplanted areas; 300  


hectares of state indigenous forests have been rehabilitated and more than 24 000 hectares of agricultural land has been rehabilitated and, the Climate Change Adaptation and Mitigation Plan for agriculture, forestry and fisheries has been approved.  
  
On progress on fisheries, nine aquaculture projects were supported through operation Phakisa; application forms for abalone fishing rights allocation were assessed by the abalone assessment team; the Aquaculture Development Bill granted permission to the department to proceed with the submission of the Bill to Cabinet and, 6 700 compliance and enforcement measures in six prioritised fisheries sectors were implemented to deal with matters such as poaching.  
  
Our approach to rural development and land reform is informed by the need for land transformation with production discipline for food security, redirecting the agrarian system to be inclusive, competitive and developmental. Moreover, the ANC led-government has worked tirelessly to enhance support for smallholders and rural enterprises and, to build on the potential for rural sustainable livelihoods, particularly for African women.  
  
Sustainable land reform is contained in the ANC’s Rural Economy Transformation Model. This provides a development framework and the Strategic Farmer Support Services Programme. In improving food  


security, the Agricultural Policy Action Plan remains the key policy driver for interventions and informs the financing of the Vote.  
Chairperson, we therefore support both Budget Votes. Thank you.  
  
Ms B A SCHÄFER: Hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, members of the NCOP, ladies and gentlemen, just for the record as during my time I certainly would like to express my absolute detest at members being dragged out of this House. Hon Chairperson, small-scale fishing in the Western Cape is more than just a mere activity. The culture and history of the Western Cape’s numerous small-scale fishing communities goes back centuries, and retains practices which give these people a solid identity, and a way of life that has become synonymous with South Africa at large. Most importantly, fishing is the only remunerable skill that many of these fishermen and women possess, often the only means to put food on the table. Failure to protect and uphold such industries by the national Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, is to disallow the people of this province to use their skills to make an honest living. This is what we have repeatedly seen among small-scale fishing communities in the Western Cape.  
  
Despite much talk of transformation in the fishing sector, the fast tracking of fishing quotas, and the tackling of abalone poaching in the Western Cape, very little has been done by the Department of  


Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries for our people. In October 2017, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries launched the Fishing Transformation Council in the Western Cape. At the time, the department said that it wanted to foster an inclusive and open opportunity fishing industry at every level of the supply chain.  
  
Mere months later, in February this year, the department openly defied its own Fishing Transformation Council by awarding fishing rights to Irvin & Johnson, sidelining the thousands of small-scale fishermen in our province without a fishing quota in favour of commercial fishing. The details surrounding the appointment of members to serve on the council remains murky to this day, and thousands of small-scale fishermen are still waiting to receive fishing quotas from the department. The reality is that the Fishing Transformation Council serves as yet another unnecessary administrative wing in a department which has been unable to allocate fishing quotas to small-scale fishing communities for the past 10 years.  
  
However, it is this very failure by the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries which is at the root of a greater socioeconomic crime ravaging our province. Abalone poaching has transformed a once burgeoning industry into a one run by international crime syndicates, fuelled by corruption and  


gangsterism. On 25 of March this year it was alleged in the media that former President Jacob Zuma accepted a R1 million cash bribe to keep you, Minister Zokwana, in your role in order to prioritise abalone processing and fishing permits for select companies in the Western Cape. If this is not true then Minister I urge you to order an investigation to be able to clear your name. It was further alleged publicly that the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries Deputy Director-General, Siphokazi Ndudane, Congress of South African Trade Unions, Cosatu, President, Mr Dlamini, and Minister Zokwana himself, all received R300 O00 bribes from the Western Cape businessmen interested in the fishing industry for facilitating talks with the former President Jacob Zuma.  
  
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Schäfer,  
  
please take your seat.  
  
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Madam Chair,  
  
I’m rising to request that the member is making a serious charge implicating members sitting in this House and outside of this House without a substantive motion. Therefore, I request you to rule on that.  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you ,  
  
Chief Whip I will rule right away. The member said “if”, therefore  


putting question, she said “if it is true”, Minister, please. I think the Minister must take that opportunity. Hon Schafer, please.  
  
Ms B A SCHÄFER: Chairperson, this is public knowledge. In the same month, nine marine inspectors from the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries were arrested for alleged involvement in an abalone-poaching syndicate. It has become blatantly evident that this department itself is in somewhere on some level in collusion with the illegal abalone trade to benefit its top brass, and the numbers are certainly staggering.  
  
A report published by the Wildlife Trade Monitoring Network in early February revealed that an estimated 65% of South African abalone imported to Hong Kong in 2015 was illicitly harvested and trafficked. We later received information from the Marine Antipoaching Unit in the Western Cape’s Overberg region that the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries only responded to 44% of their poaching complaints along the coastline over the past year. In November last year, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries openly admitted to Parliament that it does not have the resources to support the co-operatives at the heart of government’s small-scale fishing policy, and that it only had three officials to patrol a coastline of 4 000 km comprising of over 300 fishing communities.  


The evidence is mounting, and it points to a department which has reneged on its duties severely in the Western Cape, and has been tainted by the prospect of kickbacks from the illegal abalone trade. The people who suffer? The Western Cape’s small-scale fishing communities. As gangs linked to foreign importers of illegal abalone claim our coastlines and infiltrate our communities, our communities are subjected to violence and severe poverty. The very same people who want the department to allow them to fish. I have submitted a comprehensive list of recommendations to fix this socioeconomic crime in the Western Cape. I submitted this report and when it was tabled at the National Assembly, the document was merely tossed aside. I realised that in the past weeks the department has committed to no longer storing confiscated abalone, and will consider upgrading 12 small harbours in our province, but this is honestly just a drop in the ocean. When will this department realise the severity of this problem in the country’s only province bordered by two oceans? We need urgent intervention. Abalone poaching is criminalising entire communities and we need you to take urgent action, Minister Zokwana, and we need it now.  
  
Last year the High Level Report on Land published the following conclusions on its findings with regard to land reform and restitution in South Africa, and I quote:  


Experts advise that the need to pay compensation has not been the most serious constraint on land reform in South Africa to date — other constraints, including increasing evidence of corruption by officials, the diversion of the land reform budget to elites, lack of political will, and lack of training and capacity have proved more serious stumbling blocks to land reform.  
  
The question must be asked: why did the ANC push for the expropriation of land without compensation when the High Level Report’s findings clearly state that land reform failures have nothing to do with compensation, and everything to do with the ANC’s own corruption and lack of political will at a national level? Just last week replies to parliamentary questions posed to the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform have revealed that the department and its entities have nearly 20,7 million hectares of land. The reply further reveals that the department owns approximately 13,5 million hectares of land and has exclusive rights to another 2,2 million hectares. It furthermore states that the Ingonyama Trust Board owns approximately 2 million hectares and has exclusive rights to approximately 2,8 million hectares more. If the land area of South Africa is approximately 122,3 million hectares, this means that government has been in possession of a large chunk of land for the past 25 years, with which it has done nothing.  


In its bid to expropriate land without compensation, the ANC initially said that it would push for section 25 of the Constitution to be amended. The party then backtracked on this commitment this month. It seems the talk surrounding land expropriation without compensation is a convenient means for the ANC to make it fit as if it is rightfully restoring land to the people, while dithering on the issue for pure political gain. The reality is that at the time of the tabling of the High Level report the budget for land reform was at an all-time low of less than 0,4% of the national budget, with less than 0,1% set aside for land redistribution. The reality is that by 2014 the ANC had spent a combined R69 billion on land reform and redistribution with only a dismal 9% success rate to show for it. R69 billion could have bought 58% of South Africa’s productive agricultural land at market value, and this money could have gone down the drain along with any hope black South Africans have of getting their land back from the ANC. This is what the ANC has done with our land.  
  
No matter what anybody says in this House, the Western Cape has a proven 62% land reform success rate because we understand that giving land to the people also means giving them a title deeds, of which we have given thousands and the skills necessary that is needed to transform land into wealth. You cannot reverse the skewed land ownership patterns in South Africa if the state owns all the  


land, yet this department continues to stockpile land while poor South Africans have no tangible form of generational wealth in the form of land ownership. South Africans must own the land they work or live on if our country’s severe inequality has any chance of being reversed.  
  
Opportunity for land ownership brings people into the economy. It allows an access to finance and have a tangible asset that has value and means something. Land ownership can be left in perpetuity to families and becomes a step towards economic freedom. If the land belongs to the people, then I ask this question again, why has the ANC held onto it for so long? I thank you. [Applause.]  
  
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon  
  
Chairperson, my greetings to the hon Ministers present here, Minister Zokwana and Minister Maite Nkoana-Mashabane, the two Deputy Ministers present here, MEC, Members of the NCOP, esteemed guests, officials of the departments and ladies and gentleman, as the former President of the Republic, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela reminds us, I quote:  
  
Everyone can rise above their circumstances and achieve success if they are dedicated to and passionate about what they are doing.  


Hon members, our Department of Rural Development’s initiatives and activities are very diverse and yet focused on agrarian transformation that will lift our people up to the point where they can be productive in their own interest, thus energised both their own potential and that of the nation.  
  
In order to achieve all of the above we need land. Without land both our people and the department cannot be able to address the triple challenges of poverty, inequality and unemployment. Therefore, expropriation of land without compensation is a must for the nation to address all of the above.  
  
Hon members, as indicated by our Minister, in her speech, from this financial year, 2018-19, the department will be taking a wider rural economic development focus through the implementation of Rural Economic Development Zones. These will act as catalysts for integrated rural economic transformation.  
  
The current Agri-parks being developed by the department will continue being among the key deliverables within the Rural Economic Development Zones. Through household profiling, communities will be actively mobilised to participate in planning, identification and prioritisation of development initiatives.  


Madam Chairperson, primary production is one of key elements of the value chain that we want to pursue within the Agri-parks programme. The department, in close collaboration with a variety of Commodity Associations and Research Institutions, is fully in pursuit of a process in which communities are engaged across commodity value chains and their commercial markets.  
  
In 2018-19 the department is aiming to organise and establish three new co-operative finance institutes. One for the over 111 cotton co- operatives we have been supporting with improved production in Mpumalanga, Limpopo and KwaZulu-Natal. We need to remind the House that at present we have one CFI that is dealing with arts and crafts in the department and it has already opened seven branches in provinces, like Limpopo, one branch, Mpumalanga, one branch, KZN has three branches and Eastern Cape two branches.  
  
Madam Chairperson, in 2018-19 financial year, we are working on delivering the following programmes: 120 infrastructure projects in the nine provinces to support primary production in rural communities and the one-household-one hectare sites, with the budget of R263,5 million; 10 socioeconomic infrastructure projects for the revitalisation of rural towns and villages with a budget of  
R275,5 million; nine Agri-hubs will be made functional with a budget of R272,5 million set aside for the development of infrastructure  


and in 44 Farmer Production Support Units, to support primary production at rural communities and at the one-household-one-hectare sites.  
  
From the 44 Farmer Production Support Units, 3 210 households participating in the one-household-one-hector sites, 227 households participating in the dairy initiatives, 208 enterprises will be supported with primary production inputs, mechanisation, marketing and extension services with a budget of R268 million. All of the above initiatives will contribute to improved rural livelihoods and job creation.  
  


6 864 |  skills will |  be provided through the following programmes:  
---|---|---  
2 091 |  rural youth |  will be recruited and skilled through the National  
  
  
Rural Youth Service Corps, NARYSEC, programme with the allocated budget of R273 million. 4 773 people will be skilled in rural disaster management related fields and enterprises utilising R55,5 million.  
  
Hon Members, the commitments of the NDP require that we redouble our efforts to radically transform our country’s economy. We can no longer afford to be a country that relies on the production and export of primary commodities.  


We need to continue working to bring about structural changes at two inter-related levels: Firstly, we need to place our productive sectors firmly at the heart of a new growth path that will move us up the value chain; and secondly, we must significantly broaden the base of economic participation. In so doing, we will be able to achieve higher rates of inclusive growth.  
  
In this regard, therefore, the following projects and the following budgets are allocated to different provinces: In the Eastern Cape, we have allocated R29,667 million for NARYSEC, R160,9 million for Rural Enterprise and Industrial Development, REID, and R51,574 for REID; in the Free State, we have allocated R32,7 million for NARYSEC, R60,7 million for REID and R29,8 for REID; in Gauteng, we have allocated R29,6 million for NARYSEC, R51 million for REID and R21,7 for REID; in KwaZulu-Natal, we have allocated R21,6 million for NARYSEC, R161,6 million for rural infrastructure and R66,1 for rural enterprise; in Limpopo, we have allocated R29,6 million for NARYSEC and also for rural infrastructure and REID.  
  
In the Western Cape, as discussed in the committee and as I have indicated that the MEC is not attending. Out of 15 meetings that we had intergovernmentaly, he apologised only on two, the rest not there.  


Madam Chairperson, St Francis of Asissi is reputed to have said and I quote: “Start by doing what’s necessary, then do what is possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible.” Thank you very much!  
  
_IsiZulu:_  
  
Mnu M KHAWULA: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo ohloniphekile kuyintokoza ukuba nawe. Cishe konakala. Ngiyabingelela abahlonishwa oNgqongqoshe, mhlonishwa uMaite Nkoana Mashabane, mhlonishwa uBaba uZokwana ...  
  
_English:_  
  
... it’s always a pleasure to engage Bab’uZokwana, your humble personality is really appreciated.  
  
_IsiZulu:_  
  
Abahlonishwa amaPhini oNgqongqoshe, Mvelase MEC waKwaZulu-Natali iqembu leNkatha liyakuthokozela ukuba yingxenye yalesi sihloko esibalulekile somhlaba nezolimo. Imbiko nje yakamuva iveza ukuthi umnikelo weZolimo kumnotho wezwe kuleminyaka emibili edlule unyaka ngamunye ubalelwa cishe ezigidigidini R263 billion kodwa ku-GDP umnikelo wezolimo ubalelwa kuR72 billion, kungathuthuka loko Baba uma uMnyango ungasebenza kangcono ngoba ezolimo eNingizimu Afrika cishe yizona ezinegalelo elikhulu ephakathini.  


Umkhakha lona obalulekile ngasemathubeni emisebenzi ngoba abantu abaningi bakithi abampisholo, abaswele uyakwazi ukuthi ubanikeze amathuba emisebenzi. Kodwa ke kukhona izinto ezidinga ukuthi zilungiswe mayelana namathuba emisebenzi, ezinye zazo ukushaywa indiva kwamalungelo abantu laphaya ezindaweni ezisemapulazini uma beqashwa kanye nendlela abantu abakhokhelwa kancane ngayo abasebenzi masemapulazini. Ezinye zezinto esithi mazilungiswe nokunganakwa kwemithetho yezwe kulabo abangabaqashi.  
  
Kunemibiko ethi ngePhalamende leSine during the 4th Parliament uMnyango Wezolimo unikeze isifundaze ngasinye ogandaganda abangama-  
72 ukuba kuhlomule imiphakathi. Kuyasikhathaza ukuthi kuze kube manje sengathithi uMnyango awazi ukuthi labo gandaganda benzeni. Thina ke beNkatha bahlonishwa boNgqongqoshe sithi asizwakalise nje ukuthi sidumele kakhulu. Sidumele ngenkulumo kamhlonishwa uMotlanthe oke waba uMongameli weZwe, oke waba yiPhini leqembu elibusayo uKhongolose, oke waba yiPhini lezwe lase Ningizimu Afrika ngenkulumo ehlambalazayo ayethule eNgqungqutheleni yezoMhlaba kaKhongolose. Lapho ethe khona amakhosi esizwe ango-Tin pot dictators. Sithi asisho nje ukuthi kuyinhlamba. Ebesingajabula ukuthi abahlonishwa baziqhelelanise nabo. Thina beNkatha amakhosi siyawahlonipha, thina beNkatha amakhosi asifisi ukuthi nangelilodwa ilanga abobakale esetshenziswa njengebantu ekufanele bagayele iqembu elibusayo amavoti kodwa kuthi uma sekufanele kwenziwe izinto ezibalulekile  


ezithinta ukuphathwa kwezwe ebese exhashwa ngezinhlamba ezifana nale eshiwo ngumhlonoshwa uMotlanthe. Angikhumbuze le Ndlu mhlonishwa Sihlalo, mhlonishwa Mthimunye ngeminyaka we-1779 ukuya kowe-1879 isizwe samaXhosa sihola amakhosi afana noNgqika no Mgolombane, noHintsa, no Maqoma nabanye babelwa izimpi ezasibizwa ‘Frontier Wars’ bevikela izwe.  
  
_English:_  
  
There was no ANC. There was no IFP. There was no PAC.  
  
_IsiZulu:_  
  
Kwakungamakhosi evikela izwe lithathwa ngejozi.Ngeminyaka we-1858 iNkosi uMoshoeshoe lapha e-Orange River yalwa izimpi ivikela izwe kwaze kwayo sayina i-Treaty eyabizwa ngokuthi “Treaty of Thaba- Bosiu” eyayingekho nakhona ekwamukelekeni kulaba abangaBesotho ngoba yayinobuqili. Kwakuyinkosi uMoshoeshoe nabantu bayo ivikela izwe. Kwakungekho amaqembu wezombusazwe. Inkosi uDingane yalwa impi ngowe-1838 eNcome, iNkosi Cetshwayo yalwa impi ngonyaka we-1879 eSandlwana. UBhambatha ngowe-1906 kaMancinza kaZondi wahola Rebellion evikela izwe.  
  
_English:_  
  
There was no ANC. There was no IFP. There was no PAC. There was no EFF.  


_IsiZulu:_  
  
Kwakungamakhosi evikela izwe. [Ubuwelewele.] Akuthi noma selibuya izwe [Ubuwelewele.] Kubalulekile noma selibuya izwe bahlonishwa alibuyele lapho lalithathwe khona. Lingabuyiselwa phela ebantwini elingathathwanga kubona. Angisho nje mhlonishwa sengiphetha ukuthi i-expropriation without compensation kunomhlaba omningi owathathwa ngenkani kubantu bakithi abampisholo. Yini le kaKhongolose i- expropriation ebese ikhomba ngejozi iNgonyama Trust. Isono sakhona ukuthi uMntwana kaPhindangene owaqhamuka naleNgonyama Trust. [Ubuwelewele.] Ngiyaphetha ngokuthi ngithi Sihlalo kukhona leli qembu elisha eqenjini elibusayo elibizwa ngalento okuthiwa iThuma Mina. Ngithi ke abaqaphele laba abathi Thuma Mina, ningathunywa ugwayi nibuye neboza. [Uhleko.] Anithunywanga ukuyosikaza izwe leNgonyama ngejozi. [Ubuwelewele.] Nithunywe ukuyolanda izwe. Izwe liphethwe ngamakhosi akulona elamakhosi.  
  
_English:_  
  
The kings and amakhosi are merely custodians on behalf of the people. [Interjections.] The land itself belongs to the people. I am sure my hon MEC Mthembu will agree with me ...  
  
_IsiZulu:_  
  
... ngoba uyabona thina ama-Socialist, nathi beNkatha sinje ...  


_English:_  
  
... when it comes to socialism. Amakhosi are in practise in socialism because they are the custodians on behalf of the people.  
  
_IsiZulu_ :  
  
Noma usubuya umhlaba akube njalo. Awubuye ezizweni zamakhosi, asingathe umhlamba egameni labantu bawo. Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo wami engimthandayo. Nizwile. [Ihlombe.]  
  
Cllr S MONDLANE(SALGA): Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform, hon Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, hon Deputy Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform, hon members of the NCOP, ladies and gentlemen, on agrarian transformation and land reform, rural development and land reform underpinned by agriculture as the main economic driver remains one of the key strategic priorities of government for creating a better life for all.  
  
While in terms of the latest Reserve Bank report, agriculture, forestry and fishing industry contracted by the 24,2% and contributed -0,7% to GDP growth, it remains the important sector where more resources must be invested to accelerate economic growth. That in the last financial year, it was the biggest contributor to our positive economic outlook justifies our observation.  


Hon Chair, in 1994, the government embarked on a number of initiatives aimed at impacting on the livelihoods of the rural people with agriculture, land reform, transformation of the forestry sector and most recently fundamental reconfiguration of the patterns of access and licensing in the fisheries sector.  
  
The much talked about stimulation of economic activity in rural and peri — rural areas to create a better life for all cannot be achieved without a meaningful agrarian transformation and resourcing of all sectors listed above.  
  
Various rural development and agricultural initiatives adopted by the government thus far have had varying degrees of success largely due to the slow pace of transformation in the agricultural, forestry and fisheries sectors.  
  
We are particularly pleased that both Ministries placed emphasis in their policy speeches on strategic partnerships and inclusivity.  
  
On behalf of our member municipalities, we wish to commit to work with these Ministries to contribute towards the establishment of viable institutional arrangements to co-ordinate, manage and align the initiatives in rural areas.  


Chairperson, being the sphere of the government that is closest to the people, active participation of local government in the planning and implementation of all agrarian transformation and rural development initiative is imperative.  
  
It is Salga’s view that the initiatives by the Ministers of Rural Development and Land Reform and Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries should be entrenched in municipal integrated development plans and act as a catalyst for municipal local economic development initiatives. Our emphasis in regional economic and spatial planning is informed by this perspective.  
  
We are keenly following the development around the fundamental reconfiguration of land in terms of it being an important economic asset, a measure to address the past imbalances in terms of ownership and a renewed approach to place the state at the centre to catalyse economic growth.  
  
In this regard, we welcome the state President’s bold announcement to implement effective land reform measures to enhance our efforts to transformation and indeed grow our economy. We are pleased that such efforts will consider a basket of solutions rather than placing more emphasis on one element.  


Indeed, we must address directly the historical injustices accruing from the inequitable land allocation so as to bring to the mainstream marginalised communities whose contributions can spur shared economic growth, contribute to poverty alleviation and provide direct and indirect employment.  
  
Nevertheless, with respect to the macro constitutional issues, in our view the debate has to move beyond focus on mere expropriation and engage on issues of: Firstly, access to land and tenure of security that involves family group rights, enumerations for tenure security, deeds and titles. Secondly, land management and planning which entails, among others, citywide slum upgrading, regional land and planning. Thirdly, land administrations and information whose focus is on, for example, modernising of agencies and budget approach. Lastly, land-based financing that encapsulates land tax for financial and land management.  
  
Hon Chairperson, on Agri-parks, the Agri-parks initiative as outlined by the Minister must be seen as a game changer in pursuit of meaningfully changing the livelihoods of marginalised rural communities.  
  
The focus of Agri-parks on small scale farmers and the entire agriculture value chain including agro-processing will not only  


create much needed jobs in rural areas and slow down the rate of rural urban migration, but it will also enable small scale farmers to process their produce and sell them when they are not price takers.  
  
The value commodity and value chain analyses and mapping exercises that will precede the establishment of Agri-parks presents an opportunity for territorial and functional regional to local economic development in municipalities and therefore is fully endorsed by the SA Local Government Association, Salga.  
  
To date, local economic development initiatives in most municipalities have had limited success due to lack of anchor catalytic programmes with a regional footprint. Not only will Agri- parks create the much needed job opportunities, but they will also contribute to the diversification of rural economies through industrialisation as envisaged in the National Development Plan.  
  
Chairperson, if I were to remind the House, in October 2015, Salga convened a successful inaugural Small Towns Regeneration Conference in Mangaung Metropolitan Municipality. The conference was correctly themed, Small Towns, New Futures, and dealt with four small towns typologies, including agricultural towns.  


We remain convinced that Agri-parks are an important initiative and a game changer. Ushering in new futures will breathe life into small towns, hence our commitment to partner with the two departments in meaningfully improving the lives of the people.  
  
We also see Agri-parks as an important intervention to solidify the rural - urban interface and therefore if we do it efficiently and effectively, we will slow down the rural — urban migration through creation of economic opportunities in rural areas.  
  
It is within the above context hon members that Salga welcomes the announcement by hon Nkoana-Mashabane to bring into operation the 9 Rural Economic Zones originally anchored and pursued under the Agri- parks programme.  
  
It is important therefore that, the planning of the Agri-parks in the identified district municipalities be mainstreamed into municipal Integrated Development Plans, IDPs, Municipal Spatial Development Framework and Regional Spatial Development Frameworks, RSDFs, to ensure that municipal capacity is developed for the sustainable management of this initiative.  
  
Your announcement during this financial year, your department plans to acquire 98 100 hectares of land through the Proactive Land  


Acquisition Strategy, financial partnerships as part of the Operation Phakisa initiatives is welcomed. We hope that this will include key assets which can unlock economic potential within our municipal urban spaces.  
  
We call upon the two Ministries together with the National and Provincial Houses of Traditional Leaders to structure programmes to work with Salga, municipalities and leaders on the fundamentals of land use management.  
  
In conclusion, Salga supports the various rural development initiatives being pursued by the two departments and looks forward to partnering with both the national and provincial sphere of government in the implementation of the various initiatives as outlined by the hon Ministers. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]  
  
_Afrikaans:_  
  
Mnr J W W JULIUS: Wil jy saam skree? [Gelag.] [Tussenwerpsels.]  
  
_English:_  
  
Chairperson, my Chairperson, Ministers, members and fellow South Africans, land reform is a very emotive issue indeed, hon Sefako, but it does necessitate a careful and well-thought through approach to get the best outcome for a prosperous future for all South  


Africans. Unfortunately, land reform has proven to be an arduous task for the ANC. Twenty-four years down the line and we have very little to prove that the efforts that we spent so much money on has produced the desired results.  
  
We now see that land reform is being used as a political tool by the ANC and the EFF, and in so doing they prey on the vulnerable landless people in our country. Hon Ncitha, that is the legacy that you need to check. This was actually accurately pointed out by the hon Schäfer. She was spot on.  
  
This is such a shame because these are the same leaders that we trusted 24 years ago to address the imbalances brought by apartheid. What are they saying today? They say, give us another chance. Thuma Mina. Hon Khawula, you know in the olden days when older people would spit on the floor and say, I’m sending you there. If the spit is dry you must be back. That spit must be dry now. Twenty-four years ago!  
  
People are not fools. Instead, the people of South Africa sent you years ago, and what did you do? You looked after yourself and your cronies. How many ANC parliamentarians, councillors, members of provincial legislatures, have gotten land from government? How many? You have forgotten about the people. You put your ANC cronies first.  


But, hon Skwatsha, who are the real fat cats? Your colleagues! They are the ones eating themselves to death, like you said.  
  
This department failed dismally to clear the backlogs in land claims. All policies on land reform in this country were brought to the people by the ANC. It is this same ANC that now wants to change  
... to populist tactics, when suggesting changes to land reform.  
  
Minister, will you at least today commit to asking the National Prosecuting Authority to reopen the case against the Deputy President which involves alleged land theft in his province? It was scrapped by Zuma cronies. I want you to please commit to reopen that case because we cannot continue like this where you just leave it like that. Or will you take the stance ... the approach that the ANC had all along, where they protected Zuma? Will you also now protect the Deputy President?  
  
I still have a few questions for you, hon Minister Nkoana-Mashabane. With due respect, do you support the current proposals that all land must belong to the government and not to the people? What is your stance on this? You are not clear. Do you agree that people’s properties — the land which their homes are built on — will, under such a policy, belong to government and they would need to rent it back from government again? [Interjections.] Will you tell the  


people of South Africa whether the banks will still be able to lend us money to buy homes?  
  
[Interjections.] I’m coming to you.  
  
What will happen to people’s existing bonds with banks, because the value includes land? What will happen to the value of people’s properties? Your properties? What will happen to the President’s farms? What will happen to that? Will they also give it to the government? Will government give people loans to buy houses, given that everything will belong to the state? [Interjections.] I bet you don’t have answers to these questions because you did not think this through.  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You have three minutes left.  
  
Mr J W W JULIUS: Will you tell people this or will you rather mollycoddle the EFF with populist tins to keep them from getting your votes? [Interjections.]  
  
Now, hon Koni, let me come to you. You asked for it. I don’t think you have to pick people. The DA is a party for all the people ... [Interjections.] ... but you pick people. You are a party for the  


poor and the vulnerable. You know how many poor people there are in this country? Yet, look at your 10 votes!  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Julius, hold your horses. Hon Koni, you are on your feet?  
  
Ms N P KONI: Chairperson, I would like you to ask the member on the podium if he will take a question from me.  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Julius, will you take a question?  
  
Mr J W W JULIUS: No!  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He says no. [Interjections.] Please proceed.  
  
Mr J W W JULIUS: Do you really think you represent the poor with your 10 votes? [Interjections.] With this policy that you are coming up with you will make more people poor. Or do you think you will get more votes because you will make more people poor? I don’t think your strategy will work. [Interjections.]  
  
The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is no different. You are moving at an even slower pace. You know what is  


more disturbing is that this department has a total disconnect with provincial programmes, unlike what you said Minister Zokwana**.** Let me give you some examples. The agricultural school in Magaliesburg**,** where Gauteng bought the farm for millions to train black young students interested in farming, turned into an ANC landmark ... a huge flop!  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You have two minutes.  
  
Mr J W W JULIUS: Gauteng abandoned the project after wasting millions of taxpayers’ money, and this national department can only say it’s a provincial project, like the Deputy Minister said in our select committee meeting the other day. So Minister Zokwana, my hon Minister, please don’t talk about young people in agriculture because you failed them dismally. That school is closed now. You can’t just say it’s a provincial thing; we can’t do anything about it. Earlier you said, you have to manage your money where it goes.  
  
The Minister and the department do not even know where this farm is. It’s close to your area, Minister, and I told you about two years ago please go and check it out. You never went there. You never said anything about this and in this budget there is nothing about it. So there is a total disconnect and also neglect.  


Also, in provinces ... Take the Vrede farm, the Guptas, Ace and the Free State provincial legislature’s corruption. No national intervention. You said nothing about that. The cattle that was given to Zuma and others by Supra and the North West ... no national intervention. But as you say, you should follow up. Did you follow up? Tell us how far this went. What did you do to Ace and the others that actually gave our money to these people?  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, please take your seat. You are on your feet, hon Mthimunye?  
  
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon Chair, is it parliamentary for Members of Parliament to deliberately say things they know are not factually proven, yet present them as though they are facts?  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mthimunye, you will have to be more direct than that because I’m not sure which part you are referring to.  
  
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon Julius is making an allegation that came via the newspapers, of cattle that was given to the former President. Nobody has proven that as being true. [Interjections.] I know it as an allegation. [Interjections.]  


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mthimunye, can I rule?  
  
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Thank you, Chair.  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will rule. I will allow this to flow in the debate. Hon members, you are free to dispute whatever it is that members say when they debate. If the matter had not been covered by the papers I would’ve said yes. However, as you say, it is an allegation and members are enabled to refer to allegations.  
Hon Julius, in future when you refer to allegations, paraphrase. Refer to them as allegations so that we don’t get into this. Hon Motlashuping?  
  
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Chairperson, on a point of order: The last time I knew Supra Obakeng Ramoeletsi Mahumapelo, I knew him as an hon member ... [Interjections.]  
  
An HON MEMBER: You don’t know him anymore.  
  
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: ... of the provincial legislature and I think in this House ... [Interjections.]  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Allow him to make his point!  


Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: ... when we refer to each other we call each other hon members. Maybe for purposes of this noise, if you resign as a premier you don’t resign as a member of the legislature. Thank you.  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, we do not know whether he has resigned as a member or not. For the purposes of this House the former Premier of the North West may be referred to — he’s no longer a member — by his first name, like any other. Can we proceed please? [Applause.]  
  
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, my Chairperson, I agree. Supra is an ordinary member. Zuma is an ordinary member of this community.  
  
Like you said, hon Ncitha, it’s time that the people of South Africa evaluate the ANC on what they promised 24 years ago. They will find that the ANC has taken them for a ride. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]  
  
Mr J P PARKIES: Hon Chairperson, fellow colleagues, Deputy Ministers and Ministers present here. It is an honour for me to be part of this important debate in our society which is not a debate just for the hell of it. We are about the revolution, meaning land, freedom and equality. This which is about the human dignity, deep  


aspirations and needs of the great mass forest of our people the tormented and exploited class in particular. Anything abhorrent or opposite is not about revolution and is not for the revolution.  
  
South Africa suffers from the historical abuse, emotional blackmail and liberal ideological subversion from the DA. History is the most feared because it threatens the most class interests, both material and psychological. We can avoid falling prey to the facile path of ignorance of history.  
  
History is never a continuous straight ascent; it has known reverses and disappearances. History always everywhere expresses the march of progress. In this context, we need to reverse the historical fraud on the land question and lest we forget the misery and tormenting dispossession of land by the imperialist and apartheid colonialism.  
  
The basic economic and productive factor in the rural areas is land; therefore land expropriation without compensation must be for the benefit of the rural poor and the working class, not for the benefit of the engorged political elite. This should mean too land for human settlement in the urban areas. We should assist the local state to transform the skewed apartheid spatial plan.  


One of the leaders of the farming community in the name of Louis Meintjes the President of Transvaal Agricultural Union of South Africa, TauSA, said and I quote:  
  
“South Africa’s safety lies in its own hands. We hold the mightiest weapon in our hands, namely food security, and that our planning continues on the assumptions that South Africa will still be led by a corrupt government, intent on establishing a socialist order in our country”.  
  
Yet, while the beneficiaries of white domination and apartheid privileged cannot be scot-free or remain not guilty from the misery of our people. The poverty that characterise our society is the carcass left over by the process of voracious accumulation of wealth. The above quote is an unfortunate statement that shows an individual who does not appreciate the profundity of the political moment in our country. Let alone the stench of misery and tormenting poverty, they don’t hear any human dregs because of their dazzling thick hedge money.  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Parkies, please, take your seat. Hon Smit!  


Mr C F B SMIT: Chairperson, I am struggling with the translation services.  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF NCOP: Into which language?  
  
Mr C F B SMIT: English, please.  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF NCOP: Hon Smit, hon Parkies is speaking in English. Please, proceed.  
  
Mr J P PARKIES: Chairperson, the profligacy of the apartheid codified capitalism robbed our people their dignity and our attitude shall never be shrivelled nor sublimated by anything what so ever, and never again our people shall recoil to servitude. As long as the tributaries of the revolution have not touched the standard and the conditions of farm workers in our revolution will be far from being over.  
  
The security of tenure is one important aspect that could change the fate of the rural poor and farm dwellers in our country, if and when we can be convulsive on land redistribution. We want to call the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform, to scientifically evaluate the 50/50% scheme. You must also remember that we are activists and we are members of the society, that whether this does  


not constitute a fabulous pension fund for commercial farmers who will remain without benefit from production activity and decision making authority and ownership of land. We need deeper sense of proclivity beyond the grandiose rhetoric on the land question.  
  
We want again to the Minister; we need to call for the department to again investigate the transaction that took place in 2012-13 which involves Bethlehem Farmers Trust, Impilo Workers Trust and Inkululeko Trust in the Free State Province, where in which workers were suppose to have 50% share and our panoply institution in the form of the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, signed there.  
  
The state should also create capacity to deal with the monitoring and compliance of our laws on the Farm Labour Tenants, where farm workers are being evicted on daily basis. The section 9(3) the reports which are there in the ACT, could be used to effectively defend farm evictions or defend our people against farm evictions. The Labour Tenant Act 3 of 1996 is a crucial piece of legislation with the supreme aim to protect the labour tenants and for these labour tenants to acquire land, this should be enforced.  
  
These reports must be made compulsory because the failure our justice system must be dealt with and must be exposed but those reports can assist our people in that there will be no eviction  


before that report could be in place and be discussed by all concerned parties.  
  
On the issue of the Land Bank, we are in 24 years, we need to change and give a different orientation on the Land Bank.  
  
We need to invest the resources of this country in things that have intrinsic value. The question of land dispossession of our people, have indelibly etched memory. The land constitutes the economic base and asset for development and instrument to fight poverty.  
Therefore, our natural aptitude and ideological acuity will forever assist us to discursively respond to the liberal ideological subversion of the DA and its weak willed ideological blinkers.  
  
What our people survived is real, it is not a fiction, practical and astral battles were fought defending their existence against the perfidy of the imperial colonial system which reduced our people to servitude and servile level of existence.  
  
Now, this historical accuracy is undeniable in manner and appearance. The DA lacks any form of moral compunction, instead present to us and the society a dull-witted phrases. They are saying  
...  


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Parkies, please take your seat. Hon Essack!  
  
Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, ...  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I have a member on the floor. Hon Parkies, please, take your seat. Hon Essack, you are on your feet.  
  
Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, with due respect but through you, could you just ask the member on the podium to speak to South Africans because he is job-breaking and his job-breakers are really mind poking.  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That was not a point of order. Thank you, Sir.  
  
Mr J P PARKIES: The socio-economic and political petrification is imbedded in this question of land dispossession in our land. Mr JB Marks, one of the communist leaders, said in July 1969 and I quote: “our land has been forcibly usurped, our people turned into landless, rights less proletariat, the object of fierce and unrestrained exploitation and oppression”.  


Mr Harry Gwala in 1990 said and I quote: “democracy in a bourgeoisie society means that everyone has a vote, but you can have a black Prime Minister, a black President and black Cabinet Ministers and still have people going hungry and homeless”.  
  
In Virginia, there is a project called Virginia Mega Poultry. There are still waiting for production inputs and they were promised three cycles before that project could take and run on its own.  
  
The issue of students, you can’t create a pool of graduates who graduated on diplomas while state can’t absorb those students. Whom are you creating those young people who will remain unemployed?  
  
The Agri-Parks is one issue which needs immediate intervention so that we go deeper on the challenges that are facing those Agri- Parks.  
  
Look, the last issue is that we need to invest our resources on marine scientists. We must invest resources of this country in marine lawyers. There are people who are tenacious not to transform or give a space for us to transform that particular sector of our economy and we are saying such resources and state intervention must be convulsive. I want to quote Frederick Douglass, who said in 1857  


and I quote: “if there no struggle, there is no progress”. Thank you.  
  
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, I  
  
sympathise with the DA, especially black members. [Interjections.] You are forced to justify a system that is politically corrupt; a system that has no basis in our current history. You have to discard and try to embrace it. For instance, I have listened to all of you who have spoken, including hon Schäfer. You never mentioned the issue of commercial fisheries, as if it is the domain of white companies as is the case now. You have not spoken about the theft of fish by a company owned by Arnold Bengis, who stole fish and took it to America. You are silent about that. You are confining black people to small-scale fisheries that fish in the commercial space.  
It is because it is white companies. That is why Viking took us to court when we were trying to transform the industry, and they lost. You won’t mention that because they are white and they support the DA. [Interjections.]  
  
You claim to love black people. Let me tell you, if you loved them, why do you try De Lille for being your member ... [Interjections.]  
... because she gave you votes. [Applause.] She gave you votes, now you don’t like her because she is independent. You speak as if you are from heaven.  


Twenty thousand workers are threatened with eviction. In which province? The Western Cape. Who are you trying to confuse and lie to? [Interjections.]  
  
Any black person who believes they can trust the DA is like a hawk pleading with chicks to follow it to heaven. [Applause.] That is what the DA is. [Interjections.]  
  
Hon Schäfer, get your facts straight. The company that made allegations against me in particular has been found guilty of conniving with the people you refer to as gangsters in abalone. They were found guilty twice ...  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, I must ask you to stop now. Hon Julius, what is your point?  
  
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, the member is addressing a member directly and not through you. [Interjections.]  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, sir. Hon Minister, address the member through the Chair. Please proceed.  
  
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson,  
  
thank you and I will oblige. [Interjections.] For instance, they  


claim that there is nothing on aquaculture. Meneer [Mr] hon Smit, since 2014 we have put up 26 projects that are running aquaculture. Get your facts straight. [Interjections.] I am telling you that it is because under the past DA government there was nothing like that.  
  
I would like to go on and say that all the insinuations about ... Oh well, let me go to hon Khawula. What they are not mentioning, sir, is that while all those kings fought, two of them had their heads chopped off by the past settlers. You can go to Limpopo and you will get king Sekhukhune. He was not only killed but his head was decapitated. You can go to the Eastern Cape and you will find a gravesite of king Hintsa. He was not only killed but his head was taken. It was the brutality of the past regime. So land was not only taken from us. People lost their lives in the process. [Interjections.]  
  
I want to say again to the hon member from the IFP that it was, amongst others, the kings and chiefs who formed part of the formation of the ANC. We are proud of that ... [Applause.] ... and we will forever be indebted to them. They know very well that it is the ANC that supports the role that they play.  
  
Lastly, to the DA I would like to say if you want to speak of corruption, understand why this province was plunged into a severe  


drought where nothing was done to save ... It was to ensure that Israel and your corrupt provincial government’s agreement should succeed, because desalination was to bring you R600 million to fight the coming Votes. [Interjections.] So, you are not clean, sir. You are as guilty as ... [Interjections.] ... There is nobody who is guilty ... [Inaudible.] ... DA. For instance, people in other provinces stay in shacks ... [Interjections.]  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order!  
  
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Where do they  
  
stay in the Western Cape? Under bridges. [Interjections.]  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister, address her through me!  
  
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: [Laughter.}  
  
Sorry Chairperson. She’s ... I therefore want to say that I agree with hon Parkies. Training marine scientists is our programme. We will be signing an agreement with Namibia to ensure that there is co-operation in that area, so that we can ensure that these lily- white commercial companies stop exploiting our marine resources ... where the DA will be shy of mentioning them.  


We need to transform that industry. We will transform. [Interjections.] Land reform ... Land expropriation without compensation is the future and we will achieve it. [Applause.]  
  
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, hon  
  
Minister, hon Deputy Ministers, hon members ...  
  
_Sepedi:_  
  
Tsebe ga e na sekhurumelo. [Tsenoganong.] Rena re a tsamaya; re tsamaya le mokhanselara ...  
  
_English:_  
  
... who is representing SA Local Government Association, Salga, she is young, she is pretty ... [Applause.] ... and she knows what young people in this country want. We are tired of stories. We are tired of people who play to the gallery.  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
Ba ralokela thelebišene; ba sa ralokele ... [Tsenoganong.]  
  
_English:_  
  
Get your hands dirty in getting our people free. [Interjections.] Hon MEC and hon Parkies ...  


_Sepedi_ :  
  
... re le kwele. Re tlile go šoma le lena; ga re na mo re yago ebile ga re tšhabe.  
  
_English:_  
  
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Don’t drown out the Minister!  
  
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, just a  
  
week ago we passed a Bill or improved a Bill on Communal Property Associations, CPA, in the National Assembly.  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
Maloko a DA, re kgopela gore le tlogeleng go re botša gore re direng ka maphelo a rena.  
  
_English:_  
  
Don’t tell us that this programme works; that one doesn’t.  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
Batho ba rena ba nyaka go ba le mo ba ka bolokelago batho ba bona gona. Ba nyaka go tseba gore setšhaba se bolokegile naa; le gore batho ba le nyakago ba phela bophelo bjo le ba gapeletšago bjona bja sekgowa, ba tla ba le bokamoso naa. Ge o nyaka go phela o le tee ...  


_English:_  
  
... Yes. If you want to live in a community ...  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
... go be le ...  
  
_English:_  
  
... a community home, you are allowed to. It’s a free South Africa. So ...  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
... nna ke be ke le theeleditše ka ditsebe tša ka tše pedi kamoka, bahlomphegi. Ke tshepa gore re swanetše gore re ...  
  
_English:_  
  
... focus on the doing; on getting our hands dirty.  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
Re tlogele go re ka gore ba re go na le thelebišene ka Palamenteng  
  
...  
  
_English:_  


... play to the gallery. I would be ashamed to be seen to be representing the preservation of privilege in 2018, and our people are suffering.  
  
An HON MEMBER: What about corruption?  
  
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Corruption is  
  
when you dispossessed our people of our land. That is where corruption started.  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
Re be re le theeleditše gabotse kamoka.  
  
_English:_  
  
We have programmes that have not worked as quickly as they should have. The President said to us, quicken your steps, and we would want to say we have listened. We have programmes that have to be implemented, and faster. [Interjections.]  
  
The fact that you quote the statistics of land ownership but you leave out the 75% of arable land ...  


Hon MEC from KwaZulu-Natal, its amazing that we still have hon people who think this is honourable. It was very painful. Seventy- five per cent of arable, fertile land is not where it should be.  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
Mohl Sefako, re le kwele gabotse.  
  
_English:_  
  
We will gain the momentum with the debate, be it from the ANC, be it from all the parties. We are all ears and we want you to join us on the journey to get our hands dirty. [Interjections.] Here are young people who are sick and tired of stories and who want us to move forward.  
  
It was some member here who spoke of dreams, and I was sitting here wondering that our people have been listening to dreams. They want reality because they want land in their hands, not preservation of the past and the way you have been doing things.  
  
Where 50-50 partnerships would be equal ... bringing back farm labourers into some scheme. Some work, while some are very painfully insulting. In the two months I have been to some of them where people are supposed to be in partnerships ... they are still wearing  


  
aprons ... not red ones ... [Laughter.] ... and sitting in a corner, yet they are called partners. [Interjections.]  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
Bjalo, re tlile go di lokiša kamoka tše.  
  
_English:_  
  
We are ready!  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
Ga re boele morago; re ya pele. [Tsenoganong.] Re go kwele Ntate Sefako; re be re le theeleditše kamoka Ntate Mthembu.  
  
_English:_  
  
What excited me and that will make me go to sleep happy is the young councillor ... [Interjections.]  
  
_Sepedi_ :  
  
... wa mosadi ... [Nako e fedile.] Ke lebogile.  
  
Debate concluded.  
  
The Council adjourned at 17:36.