And as promised in all going according to plan and I can see him looking me down the video link from Australia And he can obviously hear me because there's a rise smile as just crossed his face We have Richard Dawkins Richard you may not remember this. I think I spoke to you by video link or in person in New Zealand probably over 10 years ago That's possible. Yes. Yeah At a time when or in a different age I would say In a different in an age where you were famous for simply thinking logically and I think being able to Communicate that logic to large numbers of people in a really clear concise and often I would say humorous and right way But in the time since that interview you have become I Guess part of what I call the culture war that has been going on in the Western world Would you have said 10 years ago that the world and your partner would have played out the way they have No, I would not I think we've seen a Resurgence of or a surge at the rather of something coming from the left rather than from the right from the political left rather than from the religious right and That is something which I think is a flicking New Zealand in particular Oh in particular and we'll get into the New Zealand stuff. So so broad picture then I Guess your original Stick of atheism You know the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the rest of it What's really in the attempt to explain and I thought you did so in a very rational way while white traditional religion Wasn't some ways and this is my interpretation Madness or a collective madness and I think you're right. We have a new religion the religion of work the religion of identity politics and the religion of inclusion Which certainly has gripped this country greatly in Western societies greatly in recent years That as a religious movement in other words there are articles of faith amongst the left amongst those who practice the identity policy politics and Anyone who deviates from those articles of faith is Brandon a heretic a witch hunt in shoes and they are dunked in the river or or on social media Berndt at the social media Stake is that that now the religion That you practice your atheism on Well, yes, I think the analogy with religion is pretty close It may not be supernatural in every respect, but certainly the hunting of heretics is a big part of it the The ruthless the unforgiving ruthlessness of that hunting for heretics is also rather characteristic of Of religions. There's also an element of original sin which is similar to at least a Catholic religion The original sin of white sinfulness visiting of the sins of the the fathers are under the third and fourth generation The colonial oppressive fathers. Thank you exactly. Yes as though we're responsible for what our ancestors did in the 18th and 19th centuries 17th centuries too So I think there's a as a fair bit of that around as well You mentioned that you think New Zealand in particular has been being affected by those Tell us why Well, yes, I mean the the official government policy to incorporate Indigenous quote ways of knowing into science education Okay, so New Zealand in particular that we have We have incorporated what one particularly I think probably hated commentator Bob Jones is called Māori Into aspects of science and education and I'm looking right now There's been a controversy just in the last week. You may not be aware But we've had a severe weather event in New Zealand cyclone Gabriel And our met service our official government forecast or in weather agency And it's social media said cyclone Gabriel all you need to know about what Tura Fira Martea Art Tura of winds or God of winds has in store for us over the next few days. So even our official Met Office weather office Has embraced the idea that weather is somehow the product of a Māori or a specific New Zealand God of the weather Does that surprise you? Well, it shocks me and it is it is actually Disgraceful that that kind of thing should be happening in the 21st century of course It's interesting to study mythologies of the past mythologies of the present mythologies of Of particular country in which you live but that is not science that is not meteorology And that's not what should be informing your weather forecast Mmm, okay Well, they say they want to reach as wide a audience as possible and they have to reach out Māori people in a in a special way Richard The weather the wider audience will want to know what's going to happen in the weather That's the point. Yeah, so you want want meteorology that works not meteorology based on gods of the wind Yeah, we also and I know that there you know one of your main interests is science the other issue that I think many middle New Zealanders struggle with is the issue of gender or sexuality We have a chief government scientist who will not be nailed down on How many scientific genders or sexes there are Could you give me some clarification on that because I was only aware of two in terms of you know Genetics if you're male genes and female Yes, I think the giveaway there is when you say genders or sexes Genders is one thing six is is another Sex is strictly binary Genders is another thing because genders really is a social construct and so it's possible to argue that there are more than two genders But it's not possible to argue that there are more than two sexes those two have been conflated. All right Can men menstruate and have babies? Of course they can't Oh Because once again there's a fear body of thought or philosophy in New Zealand that they can and if they want to they should Oh That's a matter of terminology if people want to I if people um Want to identify themselves as as as as men when they when they are actually Biologically women then that's a matter of semantic definition But I'm a biologist and the words man and woman have perfectly good biological meanings which I'm not going to depart from hmm I wondered have you ever been cancel Yes How many times And what form does it like for you I have two rich and I you know we feel like travelers of those And I was cast on my I was cast on via radio station Berkeley California, which is a place I used to live in and love Um in need via radio station. I used to live do used to love um because some local Muslim I think complained that I was is Islamophobic. I'm not Islamophobic. I'm phobic against phenological neutralation and throwing gay people off building that kind of things. That was one cancellation I offered to go on and explain myself, but they didn't accept that offer um the other one was I was canceled by a um Uh a group of my own people a group of American humanists Who had given me an an award way way back in the 90s and they then they wanted to take a rescinded my award Forget what that was about now. I you just said something you said something they didn't agree with clearly Yeah, I remember what it was now um I pointed out that um people who say that who could claim to have um a different sex people people People with penises who claim to be to be to be women are allowed and applauded for doing so whereas somebody who There was an American woman who claimed to be a different race. Oh that's right. That was an amazing case Yeah, it's really might yeah um and I all I would say discuss the difference between these two cases I merely used the word discuss and not even allowed to discuss no no because that might lay open the possibility that The group that had lorded you might be collectively wrong and we couldn't have that um and some royal concern in New Zealand um Richard About a creeping a a creeping legislate of push Towards restricting people's freedom of speech and is that a global phenomenon? I think it is um, I think um Freedom of speech is one of the things that's almost sacred and and I take the view as a committee people do That incitement to violence is one thing But merely expressing strong disagreement with somebody's point of view especially religious point of view Which has no particular reason to expect privilege no no special right to expect and privileged immunity from criticism any criticism of religion is often regarded as hate speech and that is deplorable