Kierstarma has followed up his conference speech with a tour of TV studios in an attempt to prove to the public He's not left wing and on BBC breakfast that meant once again arguing against nationalization Come on ownership can be cooperatives can be all sorts of different models But the principle being you take it out of private ownership is that right before before we go any further Honestly don't think that Nationalizing the energy companies right now in the middle of a crisis which is the government making is the right way forward The what we've got to focus on for the next few months And I think most people viewing would be are is the energy supply going to be good for the next six months And and how's the government got us into this ridiculous situation Where the energy we've got an energy crisis we've got a fuel crisis we've got no drivers for lorries We've got empty shelves. I think most people say well rather some philosophical discussion We want to know in practical terms what is the government going to do to keep the lights on keep the energy there and get our fuel pumps back in action because Lots of people are going to be scratching their heads and say how am I going to get to work next week? I'm going to get to a hospital or how am I going to visit a sick relative a teacher or nurse getting to their job These are the issues that we need to address head on and they are all banded together and characterized by a lack of planning by a government that You know campaigns in slowkins and is learning that governing in slowkins just doesn't work That was Kirstama arguing against nationalizing failing utility companies just to remind you this was stama during the leadership race First of all raise your hands if you're into scrapping tuition fees That's everyone we nationalizing water and electricity. Yeah They need to show that clip anytime Kirstama says I said common ownership not nationalization I didn't mean nationalization you put your hand up when they said nationalization Aaron I saw you reacting to that BBC breakfast clip online Um, I suppose aside from the dishonesty of it all what did you make of the actual argument put forward by Kirstama there? Where's typical lawyers answer isn't it he's saying well look common ownership doesn't necessarily mean nationalization somewhat true Does that mean he now supports a model like workers cooperatives for the for the big six energy companies Well that may work for some things it won't work for public monopolies and no I don't think that's what he means This is a man who who lives by rhetoric and Elusive lines which he can backtrack on later in a court of law that works In the court of public opinion and more importantly in the world the public policy and actually solving real-world problems It absolutely doesn't work. It's a cat it's a catastrophic failure My question to you Michael and our audiences what has to happen before it calls for for nationalization of energy companies Will the lights have to go out? Will we all be freezing cold? Because it clearly is one potential answer, you know in 2008 we had the financial crash What what was part of the response from government by Gordon Brown by by a Labour Prime Minister who wasn't particularly left Weng was to take banks into public ownership Does that mean that Keir Starmer won't do something similar with energy companies and he's saying also academic exercise You can imagine 1945 Michael we just come out of the second world war people are calling for a national health service and to bring Energy and utilities and water into public ownership and Keir Starmer says now is not the time for vain and vague Intellectual exercises what we need is pragmatic common sense we would never have got the national health service Michael When something doesn't work and it's broken is actually the best time to talk about well Systemically, what do we need to change to restructure it? It's the best time mr. Starmer not the worst time so Yes, what does this tell us a few things the fact that he's a mandatious man who actually has no idea about the kinds of policies He'd want to enact his prime minister. That's one thing Secondly, it tells us something quite troubling which I think actually confronted with the facts the tourism more likely to nationalize things Then the Labour Party over the last seven days. We've seen Another rail franchise brought back into public ownership in the southeast of England We're seeing it. I think in the next couple months lightly with with energy companies too. I think that's It's looking increasingly probable What are they going to say he's saying we need planning we need to plan the government should get the right together What does it mean? What does it mean? You're not offering alternative you're not offering anything substantial and look Positioning for the next general election is fine. Maybe that's all you care about But in the meantime, we've got two years and particularly we've got this winter I'd quite like Christmas. I'd quite like to not be freezing cold on the 25th of December here So please please offer some substantive solutions How Starmer did Brexit how he did COVID-19 one outliers one anomalies That's how he does politics Michael It's about winning some sophisticated debate in a courtroom rather than actually addressing people's problems and trying to infuse them Behind what you're arguing for he's not a politician God knows how he got this job. He's uniquely elsuited to be leading a political party particularly this moment God help us I think the point about the Tories They would nationalise the utilities before labor is oppression one because quasi-quarteng has made it clear That if if one of the big six fails they might have to nationalise it because the alternative of bringing it into public ownership Is to bail them out with public money and say oh, okay, we'll cover your losses But you can still run it as a private business Even the Tories admit that would be an unpopular thing to do whereas Kirsta I'm saying no no crisis the in the crisis. We won't change the ownership of anything does that does that mean you'll give them a bailout No, it might have been sensible to explain that sometimes nationalisation is whatever your political ideology The most sensible thing to do in that situation I want to talk about the internal politics of this the nationalisation issue seems Like it could tear the shadow cabinet apart in particular. It's creating tensions between Kirsta And Ed Milaband Milaband argued in favour of common ownership a couple of weeks ago on news night And the times are now reporting that Starmor is being urged to sideline the former labor Leader Aaron do you think this could actually happen? Do you think he he could be next to go? Well, he's he's labours most popular politician and Kirsta Specialises in doing stupid things so presumably he will yeah, I mean that's basically that we should call it Starmor's law Which is a scientific law whereby the worst possible decision that could be made by the Labour leader is the one that he takes Um, I think generally speaking whatever happens to Milaband I think he will go Whatever happens to Milaband I think in the medium term is that we won't see any of the temple edges in forming party policy in 2024 Or at least the leader will try his damnedest to stop it And I think that's an important background Variable to consider when you think he's got the GMB on side. He's got unison on side All the things that they tell their members they want the leaders of these unions We want to hire minimum wage 15 pound minimum wage for care workers. We want to end fire and re hire. We want to end outsourcing Very little of this would happen under a Labour government now you might think that's great It means a Labour government gets elected I want the problems to be solved Michael you know in the last couple of weeks We've had a lot about the Labour family my party's back No 95% of the public doesn't care about my party's back all the Labour family Can I afford to pay the rent can I get on the housing ladder my mortgage payments the future for my kids My kids going to university with university with that gang in loads of debt Elfley care climate change law and order sure these are all big issues nobody cares. You got your party back nobody cares And so my commitment Michael is the things like yes climate change housing crisis in a quality It's not just about getting the Tories out. It's about getting a party in which we'll do something about those problems Actually address those challenges and so yes, it's all very good talking about oh, we need to get the Tories out Well if Kierst armors is literally pitching to their right when it comes to public ownership of energy What fall this isn't a game of football This is about whether the next 10 20 30 40 years of your life will be That's for a worse where the life chance and opportunities of people will be Richard or poorer for for the presence of a Labour party in power Right now Kierst armors not making that case