The Trump-American feel like a dystopia come to life, a never-ending series of conflicts united not so much by any organizing topic, but a march of debasements that corrode public faith in our very system of government. Now many, of course, are countering the challenges of Trump with facts, with protests, with attempts at accountability. But if cultural history teaches us anything, it's, we need more than rules at a time like this. We need art. We need absurdity. Because distressed societies do need inspiration. We need shared reasons to look at challenges that new and maybe even laugh along the way. Which brings me to the celebrated Academy Award-winning actor Sean Penn, known for his riveting performances in films like Dead Man Walking, Mystic River and Milk. And now he's taking on a fictional president with some echoes of Trump in a new novel. Bob Honey, who just do stuff, novelist Salman Rush, she calls it a book that is both dystopian and a great fun to read. Sean Penn joins me on the beat. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. What are you saying with this novel? I think essentially it's a love letter to the best of this country disguised as an equal opportunity high offender. When you look at a fictional president that in this book tweets that has echoes of Trump, why take on Trump that way as opposed to with facts or other ways people are doing it right now? Well, I think the book is much less reflective of any particular individual than it is a kind of lament about the, you know, a humorous lament about where we've come as a culture at large. The leaders are results of all of that. And it's a kind of, it's a cry for mutual accountability. Which goes to a passage I want to read, which folks can interpret for themselves, but talking about the character who is based, it appears at times on Trump, you say, quote, many wonderful American people in pain and rage elected you addressing this person. Many Russians did too. So the office will remain real. You never were nor will be. Tell me what you're doing there and what you mean by real. I think when I'm talking about at large is where we've become a society so invested in branding that people themselves exist only as a brand. How do you as an artist approach that insight when you are also, to many people, Sean Penn, a brand, a figure, not just a human being? Yeah, I mean, I think there's two ways to live a life. One is to be in pursuit of being a brand and the other one is to fight and run as much as you can. You're never going to win entirely because people are going to have their perceptions of you. You may also have, you know, one way or another created a perception of one of oneself. Why did so many Americans then want to literally elect a brand? Because Donald Trump, if nothing else, was known for the name on buildings he didn't own? Well, certainly we've come to a point where those things once considered by principles of integrity are considered a fool's game. And I think that the way in which the culture has become enamored with that celebrity, I often think about this president the way that the audience, meaning the electorate, were it a Batman movie? This is them rooting for the Joker against their own interests and looking to beat Batman down. Were they going to movie theater and while they might enjoy the colorful quality of a performance of a Joker, they went Batman to win. And I think that the transfer from what we want in our real lives and what we want in our fantasy life has become a kind of poisonous counterpoint. Your book has definitely stirred up debate already. There are people who really don't like it. And we know that from a new ad here, this is in the New York Times and other papers that your publisher is running. So this is pretty unusual. The first quote says from Marie Claire, honestly, shut your face, Sean Penn. Another says quote, Sean Penn, the novelist must be stopped. Is this book, Bob Honeywildly Offensive? It is. And then some of them speak to the way art can be more than one thing. I'll keep reading this to you to prolong the awkwardness of this moment, John. About entertaining and maddening an equal measure perplexing and unquantifiable by design. And the Guardian says repellent on one level, but stupid on so many others. Tell me about your reaction to this reaction and why it's an ad in the Times. I do like this a lot and it kind of makes me feel like yes, I did it. I also know what the perception of me is and how. What is the perception of others? Well, let me say it this way, because I don't want to bore anybody with my sense of, I think I understand what a large perception is. The author, James Smiley, said something fantastic and he got me thinking. She said after reading the book, she thought that this was going to be about 25, 75, 25 percent of the people that read the book were going to love it. And the other 75 were going to love it. And I thought, well, that's a much better ratio than I had in my personal relationship. So, it's a victory for me. While you're here, I want to talk to you about the drug war in El Chapo. It's something you've worked a lot on. It's something we cover on this show. Your 60 minutes on El Chapo was one of the most seen 60 minutes until Stormy Daniels talk about a news hook comparison. Let's take a look. On January 8th, when the Mexican Marines finally rated El Chapo's hide out as seen in this video, they caught him as he attempted still another escape. Chapo's arrest raised questions about where the actor and actress had been tracked and helped lead the Mexican Marines to the drug lord. Mexico's attorney general claimed they had been, quote, essential. There are irrational people. And so I can't say for sure that there's no risk. You were talking about the process that went into your lengthy and much discussed article. This is now an issue in El Chapo's trial. I'm reading from what federal prosecutors say. They're asking a judge to block jurors from even reading Sean Penn's article about El Chapo, arguing that presenting it to jurors would, quote, draw sympathy for the defendant, El Chapo. Number one, do you think the jurors should be able to read your article? And number two, what do you see as you look at him facing justice in an American courtroom? The first, I would say, that it represents a misreading of my piece. Largely what I found is that most who had reported on the piece in the first place, there was evidence that they'd never read it, that they'd read excerpts of it and sort of regurgitated those. What my position about whether or not jurors should be able to read this is a legal issue. And I think that it's not for me to say. We love having you on the beach, Sean Penn. The book is Bob Honey, who just do stuff. Some people like it. And some people don't as we discussed with Sean. Thank you for being here. Thanks very much.