Well, let's cross-live now to Heidi Chao, Director of debt justice, which describes itself as part of a global movement to end unjust debt. Heidi, it's so good to have you on the program. We've seen debt crises before, for example, in the 1980s. How does what we're seeing now compared to what's happened before? Good evening, Maryam. Thank you for having me. Yeah, this is certainly a very serious situation. 54 countries are currently in a debt crisis, and so this means that their debt repayments are so high that it's undermining the ability of governments to deliver the basic needs of its people. And debt repayments are now at their highest levels since 2001. But I think a big difference. In 1980s debt crisis is the global context that global South countries are now feeling pressure from multiple intersecting crises. So in addition to being in a debt crisis, they're also on the front lines of the climate emergency. They're feeling pressure from the food and fuel price hikes, which have been triggered by the Ukraine war, but also by financial speculation in commodity in financial markets on commodity prices. But they are also the pressure from the rising interest rates in the West and the strengthening of the dollar. All of these are putting increasing pressure on debt repayments right now. But what's the answer here, Heidi, because how realistic is it to say, look, we can cancel these countries' debts, given that the global economy potentially is about to enter some form of recession, given that a lot of this debt also is in the hands of private debtors. How realistic is it to say cancel all the debt? Let's start from fresh. I think that the canceling the debt is probably the only sustainable solution when it comes to a debt crisis. And actually this was recognized by the global community at the beginning of the pandemic. So when the pandemic hit the G20 set up a debt relief scheme called the Common Framework in order to address these debt crisis through debt cancellation. The only problem with the G20 scheme was that it's not really had many countries that have applied for it, only three countries have applied for it up to now. And this week, additionally, a fourth country, Ghana, applied as well. But for the three countries that had applied to it, none of them have seen any debt cancellation whatsoever. And that's because a major problem of the scheme is that there was no way to compel private lenders to come to the table and negotiate debt cancellation. And given that almost half of all global self debt repayments are paid to private creditors such as banks and hedge funds, without them coming to the table, then it's very difficult to negotiate effective debt cancellation. So looking to the future and potentially where the answer lies, what's the impact going to be if the answer isn't found soon? I think the impacts are going to be very, very serious. So when we've in your report earlier, you talked about the impacts on the most honorable in global self countries. We are going to see essentially debts being prioritized, debt repayments prioritized over basic human needs. And then in particular, undermining the ability of governments to deliver essential public services like health care, like education, and in these areas when they are seriously underfunded. They have potential ramifications for people's life chances. Heidi, Chow, thank you once again. Thank you very much.