ielle Karas midi investiadora su africana durante el seminario sobre los brics en la cancillería Argentina para claxote de B. Karan, thank you. In your view are you counter power? They are. I think the fact that we talk about them as a self-self-grouping sometimes, but I think the fact that Russia is a member of the grouping makes it clear that it's not just a self-self-grouping, that it is in fact a counterweight or a counter-pol to the west or to the US. To the west or the US? Exactly. I think predominantly the US, the US and its allies. So you know those parts of the west that see themselves as a line with the US when it comes to security issues, economic issues, etc. And it's in fact a counter-power or is it on purpose a counter-power? Yeah, I mean it's wanting to be one. I don't think they've yet reached the point. I was wanting to be so it's on purpose. It's definitely on purpose. Oh, okay. No, absolutely. They all agree in that? They do. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean some of them are more vocal about it than others. For example. I mean Russia, clearly, because it has more of a combative attitude towards the west. Because it has its own agenda. Exactly. Yeah. Whereas the others, they have to be careful because they still have relationships with the US trade relationships, for example, relatively good diplomatic relations. Irentina. Exactly. Irentina or in the first place, China maybe. Yeah. But I think that's the nature of this grouping that they feel that they're strong enough to be able to maintain those relations and yet say we're not happy with the way things have been working until now and we want to change them. In which sense they are not happy. In which issues, for example. The way in which global governance is managed. So the fact that the rules are applied inconsistently and the rules are broken by the powerful states like the USA when it suits them. And so there's a level of double standards that are involved. And of course the fact that these powers who think that they should be in the power seats as well because they are now also important economically, politically, the fact that they don't feel that they have enough say in systems of global governance, especially the international economic institutions. How which is the goal of China within the BRICS? I think China is interesting because the BRICS, my perception is China, the BRICS is only one aspect of their foreign policy. It's the BRICS is not as important to China as perhaps it is to the smaller countries like South Africa and Brazil for whom it is a very important part. But again, I think similar to Russia, China sees its BRICS allies as countries that it can rely on not just to support its economic projects, which is wanting to have more power in global decision making, but also when it comes to the United Nations, for example. So in that case, South Africa rightly or wrongly claims to represent Africa and often speaks on behalf of Africa. And the African vote is 54 votes in the UN. So that's important for China when it needs partners and allies in global governance issues. For South Africa, especially, which is the purpose? I think there are a number of purposes. I think one of the main issues is prestige and status internationally. So the fact that we know part of this grouping, which is seen as quite an exclusive status-oriented group, but also the way that the government has promoted it to the South African public is that it's going to lead to an increase in bilateral trade with the BRICS countries. It's going to not just benefit South Africa, but it's also going to benefit the region and the continent. So both economic but I think also politically levels of prestige and also, of course, South Africa. It's stated in our foreign policy that we'd like to see change in the form of global governance reform, but being a small power, we can't do it on our own. So I think partnering with countries like China and India, Brazil and Russia gives us more, there's a bigger possibility of achieving our foreign policy aims. The less answer you said, state oriented. No, not economists. Status. Status. Yeah, status. That's the main point, the main common point in your view. Amongst all the BRICS countries. I think status is a very important part of it because I think these countries have all been marginalized from the systems of global governance. So I think one of the main things that they want is to be recognized as equals, and respected by the West. And so they're both, all of them, I think, are driven by status and prestige. Is a different model than the model of the United States, less state-oriented economies or policies? Oh, you mean in terms of their economic policy? Exactly. In terms of the intervention of the state in general. Yes. And the economic policies? No, absolutely. They're much more state-oriented. I mean, of course, they're different levels of it as well with China being. Of course. Yeah. Perfect example of state capitalism. So, their economies are all capitalist. Yes. So there's different levels of state intervention, but I think they share an interest in increased state intervention, especially in terms of social equality and social welfare issues. So very different from the US in that regard. Yeah. Okay. And which is the difference? Because in a way you are telling, one can take the conclusion that other issues, democracy or the form of the kind of democracy, human rights, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, are not the main points of common points. Mm-hm. They're not the mainstream of the Greeks. No. Is it okay? Absolutely not. I mean, in fact, those are the big, those are big dividing factors. They're, I think they're factors that divide the bricks because on the one hand you've got India, Brazil, South Africa, who claim to promote human rights and democracy in their foreign policies and then you have Russia and China, who of course don't. So I think that's one of the issues, of course, that there's no agreement on. And that's one of the areas where they're often criticized, where people say, how can these countries work together if they disagree on such important issues? And what is your answer? My answer is that. That's all it is. Yeah, I mean, in all groupings, there's going to be differences between members. So I think they need to decide what are the things that we have in common, that we agree on and work on achieving those. And as they're doing at the moment, they're simply not talking about the controversial issues like UN Security Council reform. Which is the future, the lack of the future of the bank. It has a political role. It will have an economic role, which kind of role can you? I think it will have both. Both. And the details are still being worked out and negotiated. But I think it's an important signal that the bricks are moving beyond just being a kind of loose informal grouping, because they're going to be institutionalizing. So they're creating this bank. And I think it's a political statement in that they're saying, if you don't want to give us more power in the existing structures like the World Bank, then we will create our own structures. So in that sense, it's a political sign. And of course, also economically, it's sending the message that the kinds of projects in the developing world that the World Bank doesn't want to fund, we will fund them. What do you know in your research about the reaction in the United States of the government or the thin tanks? So interestingly, I think the US has been trying to downplay the importance of the bricks by saying, don't worry about too much about it. The US is here to stay. But they really think that? I don't think so. Because if you do look at the research that's happening in thin tanks and academic institutions, there is a lot of interest in it. So it's a bit contradictory if they say the bricks are not important and they're not going to be a challenge. And they have seen us in an enemy or a challenge. I think it depends on who you speak to in the US. I think it's more of a challenge, not so much an enemy. And I think what the US is trying to do is think about how can we incorporate these powers? How can we keep them happy so that they don't pose too much of an aggressive challenge? Yeah, a shaman policy. Exactly. Okay, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Kind of smith the South Africa and collects whatever.