I wasn't abusing them, I wasn't hurting them, but still they could see that I was angry and what does the scripture say? The wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God. It wasn't accomplishing anything. It was a spanking and I'm saying, well, I'm spanking you because the Bible says I'm supposed to spank you, but I'm out of control at that point and they're in a fit. It just wasn't working. So when they did something and they did it the first time, I would say, all right, Charlie, go get the spoon, meet me in the yellow room. The spoon is the spoon. The rod. The rod. Yeah. Make them go get it themselves, go into the room and then ask the question, why am I spanking you? I'm going to spank you. Do you know why? They tell you, okay, you spank them, after you spank them, sit them on your lap, you pray with them, you kiss them and you tell them and I would tell them this every time. I would say, I am never going to spank you again if you obey me. If you just obey me, this is never going to happen again because kids are smart. It did not take very long for them to understand when he says it, he means it. Can you do the, tell us the basketball story? Okay, so we're getting ready to go somewhere. I walk outside our neighbors had a basketball hoop in the driveway. I said to Parker, I said, let's go. And he's getting ready to put up a shot and he looks at me, he heard me say, let's go and he pulls it down and he rolls the ball over by the toy box. And I'm thinking, okay, now I know that this works because what's going on in his mind is he said, let's go. If he said, let's go, he means let's go. I don't know, this guy's nuts. He's gonna, he's, you know, he's gonna spank me so it's not worth it. I would not have spanked him if he had put up one fight shot, but in his mind is, when my dad says it, he actually means what he says and yeah, there's no cajoling or bribing or bartering. No, no. Now, are you saying that like at any slight infraction, people should use the rob? No. I think there are times when children need to have things explained to them. I think one of the hard and fast rules that I learned being a dad is that there are no hard and fast rules that you have to use wisdom. You can't be a legalist. But I think for the most part, yes, that's what you would do until they get to the age when you don't or can't spank them anymore. Right. Well, we tell parents in our church when we're working through this that usually the physical aspect of discipline is when they're younger and it's more stimulus-based and they can't conceptually understand the wisdom you're trying to communicate to them, these propositional statements. And in the older they get, the more they can grasp of that, which means that the use of the rod should decline the older they get. So it'll be very weird if you're taking off your belt for your 17-year-old son. That's yeah. I mean, maybe there's a situation. I don't know, but the heart work should be happening more the older they get, right? When they're when they're two and you say don't throw your sippy cup on the ground and you put it back up and they look you right in the eye and they throw it on the ground and you grab their hand, you pop it a little hand, you say no, no, right? Because a two-year-old can't conceptually understand the hard work thing. I mean, maybe Kevin DeYoung can get to the gospel with their two-year-old in that situation, but what they need is of the rod. They need to understand what the word no means. Yeah, it's a vocabulary word. Yeah, that's right.