Literally a communist. This is your colleague, isn't it? And, Armani Asharkov. And you have produced rather healthfully this t-shirt. This is just a prototype, yeah, it's unclear. Just to be clear. I'm literally a communist. Yes, product placement. I think you can get similar t-shirts. No doubt from everywhere else. Are you romanticising a murderous ideology? No. Well, aren't you? No, I don't think so. I think that the way I look at the word communism is it... ...is talking about a kind of society which is so qualitatively different capitalism as capitalism was to feudalism. Which is to say that it's key features within capitalism. Having to sell your labour for a wage, production for profit, production for exchange. These things would no longer exist. Have we ever had a political economy, a polity, which didn't have those features? No, we haven't. So I'm not talking about actually existing socialism from the 80s and 1990s. I'm talking about North Korea or the Soviet Union. I'm talking about a politics which fits the technological possibilities which are only just beginning to see most clearly in automation, but I think elsewhere as well. Doesn't say that on the t-shirt, of course. I think you probably just need a new word. You know, I feel like I'm sat in my A-level history. And that's what most people think if you say the word communism, I looked at it on what we're going to discuss today and I went, I totally get your arguments and your points, but I think it's quite an alienating word to be usiting and round the show. I'm happy with the old word word. That communism means state control of the means of production, distribution and exchange. It means no private property. It's perfectly clear. As a theory, I happen to think that it's not workable, but it's internally coherent. The Soviet Union made a half attempt to practice it, and that was unsuccessful, but it's clear what Karl Marx meant. Right, but isn't it an ideology that led to 9 million deaths in the Soviet Union? Not a communist. No, no. But when you say that you understand the sentiment behind it, but is it trivialising what has been done in the name of communism? Well, I think that if you want to abolish private property and you do want the state to control virtually everything, then you are going to have to use brutal enforcement methods to make people cooperate. And so I think the murders, the repression, the oppression are a necessary consequence of the communist ideology. Right, and you support that deal? Because there's a line in the economist in 2011 that said, what happens when Labour becomes capital? And of course there's a Senting Tools Change and Automation Robotics. And that's a question which is really decisive for anybody who wants to defend market capitalism. In terms of what I think, capital by Karl Marx was called capital or a critique of political economy. He was critiquing the classical political economy of Ricardo of Adam Smith. He wasn't saying, you know, I'm a big fan of Paul Pot who, by the way, Henry Kissinger was. Right, you know, so I'm talking about. But in practice, does it mean violence? I mean, if you say, I mean, Mao Zedong said, based on the Soviet's experience, he considered violence necessary to achieve an ideal society to drive from Marxism and plan an executed violence on the grand scale, as we know. I don't believe communism, as in something beyond capitalism, was even possible in the 20th century. So there's an analog here is John Wycliffe, who was a heretical priest, 14th century Protestant. His ideas were more or less the same as Luther. They didn't scale in the 1400s, like they were in the 1500s, why not? The absence of the printing press. I think we're now a moment where there are a presence of technologies which make new political realities plausible. Right, but is it provocative to have, I mean, I'm sure it is provocative to say, I'm literally a communist, not a communist. Maybe that is provocative too. I mean, if there was a teacher that said, I'm literally a national socialist, without the acceptable. Yeah, or I'm literally a fascist. You can't imagine anyone going on national television and saying that, can you? I don't know. It's just a ridiculous thing. Who are you thinking of, Matthew? I know, you're honest. She's so proud of it. And I really don't think she understands the implications of what she says. It's a ludicrous world. It's just because I feel that it didn't work. And I think that's what I mean by a new word. People felt it didn't work. So when you hear it, that's why I felt like I was back at school being taught about how communism hadn't worked. So I understand what you're saying, but perhaps a new word. Mark, is it the same though as having, I'm literally a national socialist or I'm literally a fascist? It is. It's exactly the same. It's not, like, for instance, I wouldn't blame Adam Smith for the Bengal famine or for Cecil Rosen's in Bad Way. We're talking about a set of ideas which have been criticising capitalism in very specific ways. Mark's talked about technological change in capitalism and the Grunwres in 1858. So I think actually the words he uses are perfectly appropriate. I'm not going to say post-capacism. We didn't call capitalism post-futalism. It had a new name. So if we're, therefore, discussing around, you know, the branding, fine. But there is a clear intellectual heritage here which can be traced back to the ideas of Karl Marx. He called it communism. Right. Jeremy Corbyn would have a well-known of those two shows. No. But he's not, he's also not, I don't agree with Jeremy. I'm not an order's ass. Jeremy Corbyn isn't a communist. He's a, I'd say, he's quite clearly an institution of democratic socialism, which, yes, within the Labour Party is quite radical. I don't think he's a communist. No, of course he is. Only 90% communist. I know. Well, let's, let's go on the percentage. I know what are you 90%? I know plenty of people who are literally fascists. And they ought to be encouraged to declare the fact and put it on a t-shirt so we'd know what we were dealing with. But is it more romanticised to say I'm literally a communist than it would be to say I'm literally a fascist? Well, you do have a very good point that communism, although it failed and failed brutally with an enormous amount of bloodshed, still has a sort of mystique about it, a kind of student, Che Guevara mystique about it. And that, I think, is because people who believe in the free market as I do haven't been robust enough in defending the things we believe in. All right. Well, look, who wants this t-shirt? I'll pass. Suzanne. It's not my colour. Not your colour. Maybe not your size. I'll leave it here, then. Oh, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, do you want it back, I'll, no, you're not. I'll keep it here. I won't be wearing it.