I remember I always liked in the Bible where Moses was offered, what would you like, all the gold, and he said I want wisdom in a dream. That made, when I was a very young girl reading the scriptures, I thought that was a good choice. And I thought, well, what is wisdom? It's not just the book's wisdom for me, isn't just all the wisdom that man creates and all the books. I created a belief system somehow, that there is a higher order, and I always call it, you know, in horses it was the sea of possibilities. It's the, you know, partially the collective pool of knowledge, but also whatever is out there, you know, whatever the stars give us, the planets, the gods, anybody, and that, you know, that is a reason to seek, you know, for, you know, when you think of Allen or anyone, spirituality wasn't just, you know, some of it is love based, of course, loving the Arfellah man, which is, you know, earthly spirituality, but the desire for a higher consciousness, whether through drugs, meditation, you know, religion, however you get there, so important to the beats. And of course, Beethoven, anyone, it's not like the beats invented it, but since I knew them, they were all looking for more knowledge, not just sensation, not like, you know, more sexual energy, some of its sex based, but was more knowledge based. And I was very, very privileged to be around these men, I say men because they were all men. It's not a, you know, whatever, but I was a girl, you said, but whether it was Gregory Corso or any of them, all of them seeking, you know, Gregory, the highest aspect of poetry, and the brilliant opening consciousness is, you know, levels of consciousness, you know, through drugs, through the third mind, and all of these people were looking for more, not more money, not more power, not more gold, but a higher consciousness. You know, and that, to me, is completely linked, it's somewhat work based because I'm a work centric person, so anything that filters into me, I want to, you know, transform into a poem or something. But you know, it's, they, that's, they, they sought that, you know, and the Beatles sought it, you know, all kinds of people seek it, you know, you're seeking, it's not just, you know, seeking something greater than you so you can feel sheltered and comforted. It's just more, some more awareness, some, you know, as I've written, you know, some new letter of the ancient alphabet, you know, an alphabet that we haven't discovered yet that has even more information. It's all out there. And to me, that is, that is very connected with what people call spirituality. We have been talking this afternoon, I mean, the title of this symposium is an Education Counter-Culture. What is for the free of few, the essence of education? What does it, when do you have an idea to be educated? What does it mean to be educated? Don't look at me. No, your professor said, how can you know? What's the exact definition? Lenny. Curiosity and wonder, you know, the sense of, of finding some aspect of, of human endeavor and following it. And you know, for me, you know, it can be anywhere. In my sense of spirituality, it's very much created with an inner creativity and it's not just like working in the arts, doing a painting or writing or playing music, you know, I can find spirituality in a great meal, you know, the stompot and we had yesterday. What a great dish. Oh my God. But the fact is, yeah, you know, I believe we're all part of this human organism. Some people are builders, you know, some people are auto mechanics. You mentioned Zen in the art of motorcycle maintenance. I mean, when I was fascinated by motorcycles, when I was in my mid-40s and had nothing to do with having a mid-life crisis, even though I had six motorcycles by the end of that decade. You know, there's something beautiful about an engine that's perfectly in tune. And if you can get that engine in tune, that means you're in tune with yourself. I would know when I would go around a curve and I was really focused and going around it 80 miles an hour and knowing I have to be the machine and be aware of it and not look at, you know, the fact that, you know, I mean, all of these things, these things matter. But in terms of, you know, the human mind is so incredible, you know, you look at what they've done with this computer and the amount of ways in which it can expand are human endeavor and the dangers with that as well. You know, I find my sense of curiosity, you know, through the world of music to find that great beside of a 45 that nobody's found and be illuminated, you know, by that and to know that some crazy person out somewhere made that. You know, that to me is education. I mean, you know, you can learn certain aspects of what you need to know in life by a regular schooling. But in the end, you got to school yourself. What I've learned is, you know, these kind of outlier subcultures which I've spent my life in, whether it's, you know, you know, comic art or everything. They are expressions of the human spirit and you can find yourself within them and find your reflection of, you know, whatever outer universe there is reflecting down within us. Well, you started talking about STEM, though, right? And the constriction of what an education ought to be. And I do think that's a problem, a real problem. There's a great sense that education is supposed to be vocational and I'm not opposed to vocation, but vocation in the spiritual sense means just calling. And that's not what it's geared towards. Not geared toward a calling or towards wisdom. And they've invented all these weird new majors. I mean, Caroline's talking about this. I mean, a communications major. What does it mean to major in communications? I have no idea. But it's a major. It's a major. And what it means is they're going to slot you into some stupid jobs, some place that's no, that's for that. And it's not about communicating. That's the last thing it's about. So I do think there's a problem. I won't say crisis, but there's a problem in American higher education in terms of education where it's getting very divided. I mean, I see it as what? For a very small elite that used to be the only people who had access to education, they are now going to remain educated. And they're going to have access to all the things that we're talking about here. And then the masses get the slub. The masses get the vocation. And I think that's a real problem. There's a lot of ways to be educated. And I want to say that you have to only regard to be educated. Obviously, that's not the case. Although a little good, it goes a long way. But I do think that there's a way in which we're instrumentalizing education too much. And elitizing it, making it all available to the elite again.