So these signs here, what do they mean to you? First thing I thought of when I saw the sign was why I love one but the other choose vegan and I've got a really rotten sense of human I said well you could eat both. You could eat both. Yeah. Okay. So you wouldn't think there was anything wrong with killing a need in the dog? In certain cultures they do it. Yeah. I don't like it. Ah. But in certain cultures they do lots of things. They do. Yeah. Is there any difference to their culture and our culture? There's a little big difference of course. What's the history for a star? I like it. In the way they treat their animals for food. Yeah very much so. What are the differences? I'm very, the differences are that there's very little supervision or protocol or even cultural history. Okay. In some parts of the world I won't name them. Okay. Everybody knows who they are. Yeah. Where the animal life is treated is just basically a commodity you take it. But in a lot of parts of the world we human life is treated the same way. Now in Australia we also have ethical issues about our intensive farming industries. Yeah. And particularly our live animal exports which are not being addressed so even in Australia we're you know we know better. We're better but we're not definitely not guilt free that's for sure. Yeah we've got factory farms here in Australia, massive pigries and animals are treated like commodities because that's what they are. They're a product at the end of the day. A bulk gun and a pig's head which you say is the same as a bulk gun and the dog's head. It's regrettable that both are killed. The thing is that if the pig is lucky enough to get a bulk gun and it's said it's probably doing pretty well. In this world. In this world yeah. A lot of worse ways to go. What if we said like why I love one but the other what if we gave the alternative of loving both. It's a good line I can understand the line. Yeah. And when I was younger I worked in advertising. I know what a headline is. I know what an image is. I know what a communication is. I know what a logo is all this sort of stuff. And you do it. The thing is that often if you want change very often asking for a large step is very difficult for most people to get their head around whereas if you work continually, continually continually for small steps, small steps, small steps you're more likely to get a good result. Well because there's obviously a victim on the other side of this choice. Well it's only the victim that you're identifying. We're identifying the figures of victim. Yes. You don't think the figures of victim? Well the dog can be a victim as well. Oh yeah. In some cultures yeah. But in our society in this world culture applies to us. You're definitely pigs that are in intensive farming situations. Yeah. I've probably treated no longer chickens but they're probably treated worse than probably any other intensively farmed animal. So you personally would disagree with our treatment of animals for food. I agree. We're ever possible. I buy free range. And if there was another brand or branding level that came through that was ethically farmed, humanly farmed, humanly slaughtered free range, I would definitely buy that product. So the free range animals go to the same slaughterhouse as the factory farm animals? Not always. No, definitely not always. No, definitely not in pigries. What slaughterhouses? Some of the country pigries have their own small slaughterhouses where they're done much better and they're not just hurted into a truck. Can you define better? Better, it would be as much as possible that the animal is not traumatized. It has a good life. Within that lifespan it's not slaughtered too early. I don't particularly like lambs. Little piglets. Lams are slaughtered at six months and pigs are slaughtered around six months as well. But you know for example I won't eat veal, fuel and simply for the ethical reason I won't touch the stuff. I won't. I'm not sure if I remember because it's young, very often the veal that slaughter's only a couple of days old. Okay. And chickens are slaughtered at. Chicken's also I buy. Six weeks old. Okay I buy free range chickens. I happen to like chicken. Yeah. Now the thing is if I wanted to wrestle with the idea I really respect our vegetarians a lot. Okay. Okay. Vegan's evangelical basically and they can be a pony and they ask. Okay. And what for what reason? They're evangelical. They're trying to convert you to the time. The whole time. The whole time they're trying to convert you. Convert convert convert convert convert. Well they're going to have to a restaurant with a vegan. And I'll guarantee you 50% of the time that vegan will be having a bash at the owner or the manager about why they don't have vegan options on the menu. And the manager will say, well hang on a minute. If I tangled up my kitchen with half the kitchen being vegan and half the kitchen being normal it's just too hard. It's like half the kitchen being kosher. Do you think it's annoying that people stand up for the rights of animals? It's not annoying but they can definitely express opinions. But to be I'm saying evangelical they're not just standing up for the rights they're trying to convert you whereas vegetarians don't do that. Because vegetarians are diet and veganism is about animals. Veganism is a big concept. It's a philosophy against. Oh, eggs are a lot. Anything that exploits or hurts animals, vegans will say. We don't agree with that. Okay. I think the vegan philosophy is a good one and in an ideal world it's a good one. At the moment we're not in an ideal world. And there's no way you're going to go, we're all vegan tomorrow. Unless, look, all the evidence is there that mankind is going to have to change its eating. It's just black and white. It's bad for the environment and natural health. Bad for overpopul, that's the jury's out on that. Saturator fan cholesterol. You want to give as much evidence about how this stuff is bad for you. There's as much counter evidence. This is how much this stuff is good for you. So don't even get into that argument. It's very good use. It's the science behind eating bacon. Oh, well, an egg's in cholesterol and saturated fat. Okay, there's nothing wrong with eggs. Bacon in moderation, there's nothing wrong. Full of saturated fat or... No, it's not. The cholesterol will... You cut the fat off. You buy a lean piece of bacon, it's got less fat in it than it's going to stake. Or butter. Or coconut oil, which vegans love. Saturator fat. Okay, I can't tell. Full of saturated fat. Coconut oil is full of saturated fat, yeah. It's a refined product. Shabba went down towing everybody what a great product it is. But when it comes to diet, there is a lot of misinformation around it. There is. But when it comes to ethics, we can't really argue that it's want to stab an animal for no reason. And I'm a big believer in ethical animal husbandry, okay? And so if... There may be an issue aside, if somebody comes out and says, this is a moral issue. And I really do... This is not my quote originally, but I'd really do think that in future generations, they're going to look back on our part of history and how we treated our animals with great shame. I do think that's going to happen. So if you can go into a shop or a supermarket, a bloody bluff, and you can buy an ethically farmed cut of lamb or even a salmon, because even salmon is intensively farmed. If you can buy it, knowing it's had a good life, it's been well treated, it's been free range, it's been fed proper food that suits it, it hasn't been put in a stall, deprived of life or freedom, ethically and as painlessly as possible slaughtered, but you're going to pay five times more for that product, I would say good. It's good to... To painlessly kill an animal. Yes. How is that good for the animals? It's not good for the animal. We... That's what we're saying. That's what we're saying. And we're omnivores, okay? We eat vegetables and we eat meat. And you vegans will disagree with that and say, no, no, no, no, we're herbivores. We don't need to eat meat to be healthy and thrive. We've got vegan athletes here, bodybuilders. I know that. But we can choose... So we're doing it for no reason just because we like the way they taste. No, no, no, no, no. We're doing it animals for no reason. It's also a cultural thing where you brought up the certain food and you're in a culture so food don't eat pork. Sure, food don't eat cow. Culture is no justification for injustice though. Okay. Now, already in your interview, you're taking an evangelical approach. Well, from the animals perspective. But already, but whilst complaining about before about vegans and my observations is that they will not conduct a reasonable discussion without getting hot and without evangelicalizing and trying to convert the people who they're doing. You're doing it now. Just from the animals perspective though, it's an injustice to enslave them and kill them. Even if we do that in a kind way. You wouldn't think so. You don't think of bulk gun in the head in a happy animal. We've got a whole history of doing that. Humans, the whole history, 3,000 years of farming and even going back to Neanderthal. Look at the palliades. 400, 400 years of slavery. Okay, and you want to look at idealized cultures like, oh, the American Indians are, oh, the Australian Aboriginal. What do they do? They're out there, they're hunting stuff, they're eating it. In survival situations, it's a bit different to... No, no, no, no, no. I've got a lot of these American tribes are very prosperous. They just happen a lot of... There's a lot of things that happen in tribes that aren't ethical. You would agree? I think the... Like they rape each other, there's murder and tribes, there's people killing each other, there's wars, there's traditional cultures that go to war with each other and kill other humans. Yes, yes. That happens in culture. Cultures are a big catalyst for these injustices. Okay, well now you want to bang on about anti-war or everything like this. Now we're just saying... What humans do? What I'm saying is like, just because we've always done it and just because it's part of our culture, just because it's traditional and we like, it's a habit. It still doesn't justify a bolt gun in an animal's head. If they want to... From the animal's perspective. If you want to eat it, yeah. It's better than a rusty knife in a car park in Saudi Arabia. There's obviously better ways to kill people too, but it just doesn't make it justified. A few people think... You know, there's better ways to take someone's life, if they didn't know about it behind them and... Yeah, and it's called... What is it, Rules of War and War Crumps? War Crumps, you know. No humans, we've got a lovely big list about what you can and can't do in war, which everybody ignores anyway. Right? We'd probably say like... You would agree that war, no matter how kindly it's done, like shooting people and killing people and dropping bombs on people, is it not? No, it's never justified, yeah. Sometimes justified. To defend yourself in a defence, you see it? Yeah. But pigs and cows and chickens haven't done anything wrong to us for us to do this to them. Okay, now you're getting an even gelical and I'm getting a little bit over this interview now, so I'm going to walk on an half-sunday and mind it because your tone has changed and your... Oh no, no, this is my normal tone. Here's a card. Oh, we tried, didn't we?