Okay, so today we're talking about antisocial personas, disorder and its treatments, so why don't you give me a brief outline about what antisocial personas are sort of actually it's? Well, it's kind of a personality disorder, which means that it's about your whole personality who just thinks like the way you act, the way you feel, the way you think about other people and your relationships with other people, and it's antisocial in that it's against other people, the social being other people, so it's sort of a personality disorder where you're constantly at war with other people, and you're surroundings generally, so you see other people as you're enemy and you see yourself as someone who has to form alliances and break alliances and conquer territory and you can either be victorious or meet defeat, and your whole life is basically a fight of some sort, so that's what I think the core of antisocial personality disorder is. So the issue of control, this very little is very big, okay, so it's not just someone being socially withdrawn then, it's not their common term antisocial, it's a little bit different. It's absolutely not about being withdrawn and shy, that's completely different type of person. Okay, okay. So how do people with antisocial personality disorder experience the world? That's also different from how other people experience it. Well this model was telling, they see the world as a place that needs to be conquered or as full of potential enemies, they need to be quickly gaining control over us, so it's very much a hierarchy and it's a big power struggle, so they're not at peace with the world as such, but if you're with them and support them they will be at peace with you, so the world is not a friendly place, it's really survival of the faith is stupid say. So you think that feels quite isolating for them then? Take me feel isolated from the rest of the world? In many ways yes, I think especially as people grow older and they experience that they have been in a lot of conflicts with other people and they have destroyed their own relationships repeatedly, so they lose more and more people and they end up sitting very much alone and they also begin to learn that it's their own actions that cause all these rifts, whereas when a person is young what they tend to think is that it's someone else's fault, so that's another part of this, what we've got to call the externalization of blame, it's someone else's fault if something goes wrong, if there's a conflict, it's the other person's fault. If I don't get the job it's because the manager was stupid, it's them because I didn't perform well, so that's that kind of thinking too. And do they feel normal then and sense, do they feel that they are different from other people, do they think everyone else experience as the world in the same way that they experience it? I think that many don't want to feel normal there in many ways special and needs to be recognized especially, these two be sure proper respect, respect can be very important to them and it's more important that they are sure respect that they need to respect others. But I also think that when you encounter them as young, they have already experienced some of them social isolation because of their anger and positivity, so they maybe have our time getting friends, they can have had our upbringing. So in some ways they can have actually been marginalized and that's also why they might look for peer groups where their anger and their positivity is more respected and acknowledge that they actually appreciate it. So I think some sense of isolation can occur at a very early age but maybe it's not so reflected, it's more feeling after people don't understand me so. Okay, so people. They don't want to talk about them, so I must be. People that they tend to associate with or do they often have also have any social personality disorder or some sort of personality disorder and same extent. Yes especially they will have any social behavior because they will need to find people that they can sort of cooperate with, that they can form these alliances with, that they can be partners in crime or they can do drugs together so there will be this sort of attraction to people, to like minded people for that reason alone but also because other people will reject them and having been rejected and being angry what do you do to find someone you can be with, people usually seek like like company. And sometimes people with anti-social personality disorder are labeled as maybe psychopath or psychos and do they see themselves in that way as well? Some do absolutely. There's some take pride in it, as the people describe it, it's an appreciated trade. And psychopathies, of course this big monster in our big myth in society about the evil person but it's really just a description of a way of relating and a way of handling emotions. Maybe we should also add that you can have people with this personality disorder who are very high functioning. Yeah, so sometimes we talk about we meet them very often, they come up with drug problems, alcohol problems and lots of other problems but there are also people who are doing very well in the business world and make a lot of money so it can be well adjusted and I don't think they would label themselves, maybe they would a psychopath, some would and some would probably label themselves in very good, in leaders or so. I think it also depends very much on the person what label they want but the thing is that they want to pick the label. I think. So it's maybe sometimes quite hard to identify someone, sometimes social person as a soldier, if they are so high up in businesses or if they are quite good leaders and they may be just quite charismatic. So it might be quite hard to identify when someone isn't just charismatic when they're maybe just something bit more. It's a very interesting question. How do you assess personality disorders and anti-social personality disorder in particular? So do patients with anti-social personality disorder tend to feel remorse for the crimes they've committed? In general what is the case is not that there's no remorse, very few people have no sense of remorse but they have a lower, if you are into socially you have a lower capacity for remorse and some more than others. All of these traits have the common denominator that it's some people are more than others, some people steal more than others, some people lie more than others and some people can show remorse more than others. The people who are very low capacity will tend to be very difficult to work with and be very difficult to live with. Do you think there is maybe a spectrum for anti-social personality disorder? Do you think that everyone to some extent will be on that spectrum at some point but some people may be just higher on the spectrum than others? Definitely. I think the word spectrum is very important and as Martin mentioned there are some people may be very low and on remorse and some people may have a better access to remorse so that's already there you've got a spectrum and like people with depression and anxiety some is the same with anti-social personality disorder that some people are more prone to violence and some have a better control of their impulses and others. So there are some core features that are like but each person is an individual so it will have different character. Each person will have a different character. So I think it's very important to remember and also it's very important when you want to treat and engage the men treatment that you're aware of the individual differences. Exactly. Okay well thank you very much for talking to me. I'm such a fantastic subject. Thank you, Plane. Thank you. Thank you.